subtlety

[left ledge]

Happens to me with sectec

[signal lotus]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[left ledge]

I think it’s a shadowcraft issue

But yeah in cds you can notice it a lot

[brittle tangle]

do we have common macros?

[warm marlin]

i think it pretty much exclusively happens to me around the second dance of flag actually

[left ledge]

Sectec cb

[warm marlin]

something about refreshing symbols probably

[left ledge]

Is the only macro

[hallow night]

I feel like I have too many sod in m+ tbh and it makes me want to send danceless sec tech when I have 3 sod and no dance

[left ledge]

Yeah, not sure exactly what it is because sometimes it doesn’t happen

[sand patio]

Should I hold sectec for dance or always use when symbols are up?

[left ledge]

I think it’s also if you enter that dance with max cp and then symbol into a finisher

[hallow night]

But I only do low keys rn for gear and everything dies too fast to farm cdr

[rapid forum]

always symbol dance sectech

it should align naturally

more or less

[hazy breach]

The first second of dance (or vanish, whenever you swap "stances") shadowcraft just doesnt refund for some reason

Even if you are at the correct sht amount

[left ledge]

Yup even if it’s a coup

[hallow night]

Do you have to maintain fazed in aoe outside of dance?

[left ledge]

It won’t do the delayed stuff

[warm marlin]

ya that would explain it

[fallen crescent]

Am i ever throwing blank sec tec? If im trying to pool sod charges.

[hazy breach]

Fazed is not something you should be actively thinking about

[hallow night]

I thought you had to faze for coup

But idk why

[hazy breach]

The only time fazed is relevant is if you are about to coup and have either:
A. Recently swapped target
B. Held onto your coup for more than 10 seconds and for some reason aint about to sectech

[hallow night]

Oh yeah it gives stacks that do something

[left ledge]

Well sectec I’m pretty sure applies fazed

[swift tinsel]

it does

[left ledge]

So fazed is kind of an afterthought

[hallow night]

Sometimes I sit on coup in aoe if the pack won’t live long enough to use both coups

Like it comes up as everything is dying

[hazy breach]

But then youre gonna proc fazed with your strike on the next pack anyway

The only thing i have in my UI related to fazed is if i have coup ready and fazed is not up

[left ledge]

I mean you shouldn’t be sending coup without sectec anyways then in the next pack too no?

[hazy breach]

But if you play well it should be up in 99% of cases anyway

[left ledge]

If you’re gonna hold it

[hazy breach]

Correct

[hallow night]

Idk

[left ledge]

So both ways you’re applying fazed at all times

Just don’t think about fazed

If you play around the cd priorities of sub

Fazed is just a passive

[granite river]

whtas the benefit of the M+ build in the pins, as opposed to playing CB, and Rotten + Deeper daggers, seeing that build in logs

[swift tinsel]

tea vs cb is just a tradeoff of aoe for st

[lethal yew]

Do you hold coup for either a dance/sectec window or flag window? If you are in-between do you send a coup on its own?

[swift tinsel]

tea being a bit more aoe, cb being a bit more st

[upbeat escarp]

For the 1st coup optimisation in the pin
Does it mean stop using finishers 10s before cds generally or stop using finishers only if you have coup ready to use it inside cds

[granite river]

kk tyty

[hallow night]

How many seconds is it worth holding a coup for (using rupture/black powder instead) so you can use it with dance and tech and sod?

[swift tinsel]

pretty much just personal preference

[left ledge]

If flag is like 20 away hold

But if flag is 20 away you hold everything

Even combo points

[vale pine]

up to 20 sec is fine

[left ledge]

Otherwise send in a dance

[hallow night]

Why combo points

[lethal yew]

Thank you

[left ledge]

If you have no dances and no cds soon just send it

[cedar iron]

because you store them

[hallow night]

If you have flag you have sblade so you have unlimited combo points

[left ledge]

Don’t sit on coup for like 10+ seconds no cds coming up

You can farm it back really fast

[fallen crescent]

Rip i somehow end up with coup and no cds. Goddamn i suck

[left ledge]

That’s fine

Send it naked

It happens

[elder path]

I have seen sims doing coup out of blades on low combo points is it correct?

[hallow night]

That’s what I thought gloom. Coup gives you back dance

[upbeat escarp]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[viscid dagger]

Sub or assa for rogue this season? Seeing some conflicting info for M+

[hazy breach]

Whatever you enjoy the most

[short radish]

whatever you find fun

[leaden plover]

sub sub sub

[left ledge]

The cdr itself isn’t that crazy but yeah you shouldn’t sit on it for so long if flag isn’t coming up

[lethal yew]

Do we ever send naked sectecs? In st and/or aoe?

[fallen crescent]

Neither. Outlaw is op meta giga girth spec

[hallow night]

Ignoring flag how long do you hold combo points for normal dances?

[swift tinsel]

you don't

[left ledge]

You can if you won’t have two dances for cds if you do send a dance but can farm sectec back, you just kinda have to feel this one out unless someone else knows the specific scenario it happens

[viscid dagger]

I mean i enjoy both sub and assa but still wanna be able to go further with one spec so was curious abt performanfe

[hallow night]

Sometimes my dances feel really bad because I have to double shadow strike to use 1 finisher in aoe

Or even single target too

[swift tinsel]

more chances for unseen blade

[vale pine]

you basically can send it rarely blank close to flagellation with a symbols of death, but doing so requires good cooldown management and loses you a lot if you mess up

[jade urchin]

is cold blood in macro broken?

[swift tinsel]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[jade urchin]

oh tyvm

[left ledge]

Relog

Love relogging

[shell ice]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

When you proc unseen blades with shadowstrike its doing similar damage to finishers

Especially when you proc 2x with the season 3 tierset

[hallow night]

I don’t understand what you mean

Do you mean 2nd coup?

[hazy breach]

No

The thing that builds up to coup

When you go from 1 stack to 3 stacks for example

That also does damage

And a lot of it

[hallow night]

Oh is fazed cleaving the 7 targets?

Sometimes I’m stuck on 1-2 stacks in aoe and idk why

[hazy breach]

Has nothing to do with fazed

[tacit void]

is there any changes in playstyle when playing the rotten?

[hallow night]

Like I’ll have to black powder after sec tec cause I didn’t get a coup

Despite pressing shadow strikes on a big pack

[granite river]

you still cant track unseen blade icd ?

[hazy breach]

You cannot

[empty plume]

@left ledge I figured out the problem, and it is a premed+shadowcraft bug unrelated to coup refund timing
#subtlety message

[granite river]

just vibing

[hallow night]

Oh I’m on icd when that happens

[swift tinsel]

unseen blade isnt guaranteed every strike/backstab

there's a random chance to reset it due to the talent Thousand Cuts

so its rare you don't get a proc during its natural icd

the only ways to force a proc are your first strike getting into combat, and the 2 granted from Disorienting Strikes from casting sectech

[empty plume]

the bug is with dance+symbols -> coup

if will not refund you even if you are sitting at 14 Sht
correction edit: 'tis a premed issue which i got from dance

[hallow night]

Here’s an optimization question, is it worth letting sod fall off for 1 dance finisher (black powder) so I can sec tec + coup with sod?

[cedar iron]

what is this:

[swift tinsel]

going for a walk

mindfulness exercise

if I was getting pummeled constantly I'd go for one too

[hallow night]

With the long dance my dance lasts a global longer than sod

[swift tinsel]

are you talented into inevitability

bc that shouldn't happen

[hallow night]

When I put 2 dances back to back I can reliably get sec tec as 2nd finisher

[hazy breach]

In blades you should be casting that sectech whenever its ready anyway

With symbols of death

[swift tinsel]

that too

[light cypress]

Hi, a friend referred me to this discord regarding that question: Is there a visual representation of nimble flurry aoe?

[swift tinsel]

whatcha mean

[hallow night]

The timing is mega tight but I’m just curious if it’s worth holding sod for 1 finisher to get it with coup one instead of black powder

[hazy breach]

Its a circle of 8 yards around you

[light cypress]

as in what area is being hit. 360° around you? cone?

so like guardian druid swipe, got it

Thank you

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter what you supercharge with your other point

As long as you supercharge sectech its fine

You shouldnt be holding coup in dances, if its up use coup, not bp

[empty plume]

omg it is a premed bug...

[hallow night]

Shouldn’t you try to optimize to get coup 2 with sec tech if you can?

[hazy breach]

No

[empty plume]

you cannot get a shadow techniques refund with premed on, or something along those lines

so if you pooled shadow techniques stacks to 14 before a dance window, and you dance -> finisher, you will not get a refund and you have to do a builder to burn the premed

[mystic merlin]

Why are people suddenly playing sub on high keys?

[hazy breach]

Because its good

[swift tinsel]

because its strong

omega good tier set plus prism

[hallow night]

Do you need prism?

[warm marlin]

strong and assa got knocked down a bit by bugfixes

[hazy breach]

A lot of which was intended to be a nerf btw

[compact violet]

bugfixes who created others bugs 😄

specially the funnel who got fked

[graceful osprey]

Hmmm, I was playing the bleed assa build for M+. I’m curious now and kinda want to try sub again for M+

[lavish girder]

yeah the bug fixes were good but the caustic not single focus is kinda a huge nerf which is unintended

well, not "huge" but enough

[hot creek]

Hi there, sorry to bother with this I'm pretty new to sub, I wonder if sectec benefits from dmg buffs of SD and SoD if I cast these before sectec dmg proc ?

[pearl copper]

When should I Evis instead of BP?

[compact violet]

huge for mm+ high key cuz u just wanna nuke a boss with 50 adds on it

and assa was sooooo good at this

[vagrant fulcrum]

yo is shadowcraft bugged

refund is hella slow

[swift tinsel]

3 or less targets you evisc

[hazy breach]

Yes, all 3 hits of coup can proc the refund

[vagrant fulcrum]

fml

[warm marlin]

@hazy breach this guy is right btw

its premed bug

[vagrant fulcrum]

what's the play

do we ignore it and act as if we didnt get refund

[hazy breach]

Oh ye that makes sense, i thought it was just stance shifting

[vagrant fulcrum]

or wait

[hazy breach]

But premed makes way more sense

[pearl copper]

Why do i some str evis instead of BP

[hallow night]

So if you go into a pack with coup you should dance > back stab > sod > sec tec > shadow strike > coup 1> ninja storm > coup 2 > etc?

[hazy breach]

Ill update the sheet

[empty plume]

100% premed, tested vanish and dance

[vagrant fulcrum]

and is not using premed an option?

[hazy breach]

No

It also doesnt really matter

You just get the refund a global later

[graceful osprey]

So forgeweaver, it’s better to BP for orbs?

[warm marlin]

its a bit annoying but knowing what causes it will let us play around it

[hazy breach]

Its just a feelsbad bug, not one that has a noticeable impact

[empty plume]

yeah would only cuck if you were somehow 14 shadow techniques, bleeding stacks - or if you need to cram finishers before buffs fall off etc

[warm marlin]

or at least predict the lack of refund

[vagrant fulcrum]

is it safe to always dance into backstab even on aoe?

• do we track unseen blade?

[swift tinsel]

unsure what you're asking

[umbral fulcrum]

i have a similar question because i watched an araz kill and the rogue never presses BP despite 5 targets up

[pearl copper]

I see some streamers do evis instead of BP while con cds on big pulls

[swift tinsel]

coup de grace

[hazy breach]

Eviscerate does more damage to the main target than BP does

Thats why

[swift tinsel]

or they want prio

[umbral fulcrum]

so its just a prio choice ok

[pearl copper]

Okay that makes sense thanks

[hazy breach]

Its not a huge difference either way, most of the prio comes from strikes, unseen blade and coups anyway

[swift tinsel]

^

[hazy breach]

Would recommend to still BP unless the adds are completely irrelevant

[pearl copper]

Okay ty

[hallow night]

Do any of you track snd?

[swift tinsel]

nope

[ripe flame]

About to pad my little ass off

[hallow night]

I never track it so I’m if it’s up

[swift tinsel]

its automated by evisc casts so you never really need to worry about it

just visual clutter

[hallow night]

But in aoe I only coup for it

So it might fall off

[hazy breach]

It wont

[swift tinsel]

eh

unless you're holding coups forever

like an egregious amount of time

[warm marlin]

coup gives like 40s of snd on its own

[hallow night]

I use them asap to farm for dances

[swift tinsel]

yeah previously coup didn't grant snd but it does now and that carries the duration

[hallow night]

I think my biggest struggles are I dance too much

[patent lichen]

So many new sub rogues, wonder what happened

[hallow night]

And my dances aren’t amazing

[hazy breach]

Make sure to always have 1½ dances, 1½ symbols and sectech ready when you press flag

(ie 1 charge and 30 seconds on the second one for dance and 1 charge and 10s on the second one for symbols)

[hallow night]

How many dances between flags in m+

[hazy breach]

If you dont have that when flag comes up

Youve sent too many

Better to send too few than too many

[hallow night]

I feel like I press it at least 3 times

[hazy breach]

The snd duration does get +5:ed by coup

[pearl copper]

Why is it important to track the sec tech stacks?

[hazy breach]

So its just the base duration from the cp youre spending

[hazy breach]

Assuming you mean shadow tech and not sectech, its not hugely important

As long as you react to the refunds its fine

But i prefer to be able to know when the refunds are gonna come

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[warm marlin]

my 7cp supercharged coup just gave 45s of snd

is that not right?

[hazy breach]

You can use the "shadowcraft refund trigger" to get a sound for it

[warm marlin]

15*3

[hallow night]

I’m playing black potion because shindigg recommended it for noobs. How much worse is it than the meta build?

[empty plume]

premed bug clip

[hazy breach]

Thats the same as a 7cp eviscerate

Its 6s per cp

[patent lichen]

Dark drew?

[warm marlin]

7cp evis gives 21

its 3s

[lime obsidian]

!macro

[hallow night]

Yeah dark drew

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hazy breach]

Oh the tooltip is just cooked ig

nvm im cooked

[warm marlin]

[simple lantern]

Hi guys. My apologies for dumb question but I cannot understand how symbols combo points buff works. It gives 2 stacks, which means that only first spender goes +2 combo points or it's first and second spender goest +2 combo points?

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah wasn't hard-cast snd 6 per cp

[patent lichen]

Without seeing the tree it's kind of hard to tell

[swift tinsel]

and cttc is 3

[hazy breach]

Ye i thought the cttc was the same as the hardcast one

[patent lichen]

I'm assuming he goes dark brew over dance macarbe for newer player friendly?

[hazy breach]

Turns out it isnt

Anyway

[swift tinsel]

lol I learned something today too

bc I thought it was 6 for cttc lol

[hazy breach]

That wouldnt make it more newer player friendly though

You dont need to track or think about danse macabre really

[hallow night]

CUQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmGzgZmxYMzMmZmhxsNLGzstNzMYmBjZWmtBAAAgZAAjZzwADMLahWsBD

[patent lichen]

I know, I'm trying to understand why anyone would go dark brew and call it new player friendly lol

It's all pretty friendly down there

[warm marlin]

i mean, we do get a decent amount of people who come in asking about using shiv shuriken toss etc to "maximize" danse macabre

perhaps it is to avoid such pitfalls

[swift tinsel]

should add to the tooltip "you don't play around this 99% of the time"

BS be damned

[hazy breach]

I mean technically the backstab is to play around that, but you dont need to track macabre for that

[patent lichen]

Dark brew instead of shadowcraft is an interesting choice

[hazy breach]

Its fine

[hallow night]

He said it’s harder to play shadow craft

[hazy breach]

Sims pretty decent but most pople dont like how ST feels without it

[hallow night]

Idk what it does though

[hazy breach]

Thats fair

[swift tinsel]

yeah I don't like playing without shadowcraft or inev

[hallow night]

What does shadow craft do

[patent lichen]

More combo points

[lime obsidian]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hallow night]

When it says 1 additional is that per proc?

[swift tinsel]

when symbols up, your shadow techniques can refill your cp bar when you have 7+ stacks and use a finisher

yep

so it stacks way faster

and in blades you're filling your cp with every builder so it allows it to stack to and past 7 for the refunds

[hallow night]

Do you need to farm combo points to go into any shadow dance so you can spam finishers?

[swift tinsel]

nah

[patent lichen]

Not particularly

[vagrant fulcrum]

going into dance guarantees max cp with premed

[swift tinsel]

you can go into dance with 6+ cp or no/low cp

[vagrant fulcrum]

no need to hold cps

cps*

[hallow night]

Is it viable to go into dance with a full combo bar?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

that's fine

[hallow night]

Do you just sec tech first global?

[patent lichen]

Pretty much

[swift tinsel]

you just don't want to do with like 3-5cp bc premed gets very little value there

so no/low or 6+ is fine

[empty plume]

curious about Shadowed Finishers interaction with FW for specifically evis/nimble flurry
for BP you would want aoe FW I'd assume
does nimble flurry care? or is FW on the primary target sufficient
I guess the root question is in the damage calculation order for nimble flurry cleaving the damage of my evisc

[hazy breach]

FW on the main target is sufficient to cleave shadowed finishers yes

[hallow night]

Is it actually worth rupturing if you have cds ready to go?

[mental kettle]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

However since nimble flurry is physical having FW up on other targets makes them take 10% more damage from nimble

[pearl copper]

With the shadowcraft refund sound trigger, will make a sound when i am getting the CP back so i can spend them?

[swift tinsel]

you should rupture as your first finisher after flag as a general rule so you don't have to think about it for the duration

[hazy breach]

So yes FW is significantly more impactful for BP than it is for Eviscerate with nimble flurry

[olive canyon]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[empty plume]

so The Rotten is good for aoe BP scenarios in other words

[hazy breach]

(also shadowed finishers isnt 30%, its 30% of the nonarmor reduced value so its more like 39%)

[swift tinsel]

rupture dynamically updates during cooldowns so you don't want to or have to worry about refreshing so you can maximize better damaging globals

[hazy breach]

Ye but you still generally dont want to storm in dance

Tier set makes strikes that proc unseen blades too powerful

[swift tinsel]

storm gets a lot of passive crit from talents

making rotten less required for fw spread

[hazy breach]

You'd only storm to not waste your unseen blade inbetween coups

If you are in blades or big aoe

The alternative to rotten is finality, and thats like +10% bp damage

So thats also good

[empty plume]

so The Rotten sequence would be like... strike rupture (setup as pull is occurring) -> symbols shuriken (FW) dance sectech strike bp strike bp strike bp -> coup when available

or one BS for danse

I suppose

[hazy breach]

You could do that, sim doesnt like it though, most of the time youll have coup up or close to ready

And you dont really need the fw until youre gonna bp anyway

So it would be more like sectech > strike > coup > storm > coup > bp

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[empty plume]

ah, I do not have 4p set yet - that makes sense though, the natural shuriken between coups

ty

[hazy breach]

Only do it with lots of targets or during blades though

The storm that is

[hallow night]

I mean spamming ruptures on every mob

[hazy breach]

You dont want to use a 1cp storm instead of 3cp strike on ST

[hallow night]

I usually shadow strike rupture into cds

[swift tinsel]

usually toss out 2 casts and then a third right after flag

with RS you'll next six ruptures out which is usually pretty fine

[hazy breach]

But like an unseen blade+strike+bp with only a couple of FW generally does the same or more than storm+bp with all fws up

Unseen blade slaps

[limpid sage]

is loomithar myth realistically puggable?

[swift tinsel]

rupture spread kinda depends on how long your tank takes to gather

[empty plume]

is sectech the only way to Faze aoe

[hallow night]

Can we track longest night?

[swift tinsel]

but hitting the bigger priority mobs is typically the play

[hazy breach]

Yes, but fazed doesnt really matter

The debuff is almost completely redundant

[hallow night]

I usually stealth after pull and county the second on the purple buff that does something to make sure I have longest night every pack

[hazy breach]

Only thing it does is make it annoying to target swap to something that didnt get hit by your sectech if you have coup up

[empty plume]

yeah was mostly a curiosity question for survivability reasons, it's 5% personal DR for keys

[hazy breach]

Which is not a particularly impactful talent

[swift tinsel]

if you mean The First Dance yeah

there's a countdown aura you can track with weakauras

[sullen hare]

probably. you'd be hard pressed to find a deathstalker player in this channel though. they might have a weakaura in #assassination but we aren't playing DS this season

(I assume you mean darkest night)

[hallow night]

I meant the first dance

[empty plume]

a man of mystery

[sullen hare]

oh!

[hallow night]

It’s a long shadow dance it should be called the longest night

[empty plume]

the first dance is just a buff, you can track it with the simplest of weakauras if you want to learn to make them that'd be a great starter

[sullen hare]

I feel like first dance is fine and I'm pretty sure it's just a buff? so probably

[swift tinsel]

it is

can make a simple aura buff tracker

[hallow night]

If a tank is chain pulling 1% hp mobs into a new pack is it worth vanishing for first dance?

Or should you just be rupturing while everything stacks

[sullen hare]

nah just sprinkle ruptures around

[mental kettle]

!finisher

[sullen hare]

you can always vanish though

[hallow night]

That’s what I normally do but it occurred to me that vanish might be better

[mental kettle]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[mental kettle]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hallow night]

When my dance was ass on that pull

[empty plume]

uptime usually wins

[hallow night]

It was a flag one and I felt like it deserved to be better

I usually do around 6.3m in keys. I mostly do 6-10. Is my damage ass?

[empty plume]

especially with 1-hour tricks, you can hit so much earlier than anyone else

[alpine wraith]

FINALLY FREE FROM M+

dont worry sometimes you do more or less dmg

depending on comp and people

i just did almost 7m in ara kara because on some pulls they just let me full send

[hallow night]

Do you eviserate in ara Kara?

[olive canyon]

is it always best to his a shuriken when approaching a big pack before popping cds - is that to spread FW around

[hallow night]

The big guy that aoe damage reduction the pack

Or do you just black powder through the dr?

[crystal bone]

yes, evis bloodguards

BP when they die

[mental kettle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hallow night]

Is there a way to make thistle tea not drink itself?

[alpine wraith]

dont use builders if you are below 60 energy

[hallow night]

What about spenders

[hazy breach]

Just dont think about it

[hallow night]

I’m going to see if I can put lines on my energy bar that represent when it’s safe to press

[hazy breach]

its not worth playing around

[hallow night]

It’s a lot of mastery being wasted that should go on sec tech

[solemn creek]

Do we use storm between coup proc only during shadow blade?

Or even during non sb window

[tepid trellis]

yes

[hazy breach]

Yes

[tepid trellis]

during blades

[solemn creek]

Good

[hallow night]

I thought it was during non shadow blades as well but I have no idea what proc is getting munched there

[solemn creek]

If coup is ready. For dance Do we send s.t first window instead of second?

[hazy breach]

Idk what you mean

[hollow spear]

I think you can do that in aoe, but in st you don't

[hazy breach]

You always send sectech asap

[solemn creek]

Last season.. we used to sent sectech on 2nd finisher

[hazy breach]

No

[solemn creek]

Is that not the case anymore?

[hazy breach]

We havent done that since dragonflight

[hallow night]

Is it always bad to do that?

[hollow spear]

Ig you could send it as 2nd finisher if you get to dance with 9s cooldown on sectec

And have a good dance opportunity

[hazy breach]

Ye you can do that, but you dont purposefully delay sectech for your second finisher if its ready

You just send it asap

[warm marlin]

i think holding dance for sectec being actually ready is good now

[hallow night]

During 3rd dance in opener I’ll usually sod > coup > sec tech

[warm marlin]

high chance you get 2x coups from your unseen blades and you want those in dance

[solemn creek]

Do we still send if no supercharge?

[hazy breach]

It should be supercharged

[valid plume]

Is the CB build preferred over the thistle tea build for M+?

[hallow night]

Sec tech is usually still on cd for 8 seconds by then

[hazy breach]

You can play whichever you prefer

[hollow spear]

True

[cosmic sparrow]

Ok so I just started playing sub, how do you handle down time between flag and shadow blades?

[swift tinsel]

a good show on the 2nd monitor

[crystal bone]

netflix

[swift tinsel]

jk between flag and blades you rupture dance sod backstab sectech

[ocean cloak]

Hey guys, quick question regarding on use trinkets. I managed to pull a myth Lily alongside my champion Netherprism. Is it ever worth to try and use two on uses or should I really aim for a passive (don’t mind the complexity, just don’t know if two on uses has a place in subs rotation)

[cosmic sparrow]

Ok, how many dances can you try to get in?

[swift tinsel]

but after flag/blades end you go into chill mode

[cosmic sparrow]

2 or do you start saving them for your next round of CDs?

[swift tinsel]

you can always get 2, often 3

[hazy breach]

I would recommend getting another trinket

[swift tinsel]

unless you mean between flags then its 1 or 2

[hazy breach]

But you would lily on pull, lily on 90s and then prism on 180, lily again on 270

[ocean cloak]

Appreciate the quick response, thanks 🙂

[hazy breach]

And then rotate them, but as you might be able to tell holding lily for 3 minutes isnt particularly appealing

Compared to a passive trinket

[queen kraken]

eleem, would u rather go for antenna with prism/ritual forge or just go prism+forge if u get them?

raid and m+

[ocean cloak]

Yea exactly, figured it would be a weird way it played out if I tried. Thanks again!

[hazy breach]

I think the double on-use is overhyped and i would just stick with antenna

Dimensius mythic p3 seems unplayable for antenna though, so probably forge for that boss

If the fights are really short the double on-use is fine too

[queen kraken]

seems nice for m+ with bigger gain than lily

but ye figured

araz seems good for double on use too

since u can delay the 2nd prism usage

[frail kindle]

its okay

i think antenna+prism would be just as good

[mental kettle]

quick q - why does wowhead guide say to use finishers at 6cp, i asked Casual about his finishers and he said 5

[swift tinsel]

was he talking about assassination

[frail kindle]

finish at 6

[hazy breach]

Anytime you delay the double on-use gets worse, relative to passive

[hollow spear]

I kinda like pvp trinket as double on use in M+

[swift tinsel]

bc sin finishes at 5+, sub always 6+

[hollow spear]

but maybe I am weird

[swift tinsel]

unless its 2nd coup and you can't get that many before it falls off

[warm marlin]

i think ive come around a bit to double on use in keys btw after playing a bit more

downtime kind of sucks on prism

[hazy breach]

Because prism takes exactly 180 seconds to stack up, if you end up delaying to use it after 210 instead youve wasted 3 stacks

[queen kraken]

hmm but isnt passive just good if it pops in ur dances? Or would u just track procs and quickly send one of the two in between dances after proc

[mental kettle]

whats the coup rule for CPs

6+ unless 2nd about to fall off

and u can send early?

like outlaw ig

[queen kraken]

ye ikr

[swift tinsel]

Ideally 6+

but if it means missing 2nd coup cast just send with however many you have

[warm marlin]

like you're playing dawnbreaker flying around and that's time a normal on use is cooling down + you're not getting use out of your passive trinket while also not stacking prism

[hazy breach]

Well the passives also have 7-8k agility

Which is like 1/3 of the agility forge gives

[swift tinsel]

you can pool a bit of energy/sht stacks before sending first coup if you're worried about being starved

or vanish+premed

[hollow spear]

I also need to learn to just send prism when the boss dies without me getting out another flag. Kinda used to a pure 90s trinket...

[queen kraken]

so u would go for lily + passive in the best case?

[hazy breach]

Prism is the best trinket by far

[queen kraken]

or just accept lower prism stacks

ah ok

[hazy breach]

But yes with antenna you can also kite orbs to make sure they dont proc until you dance

[hallow night]

What’s the lowest ilevel prism you’d use?

[hazy breach]

(the sim is not doing this)

Whatever the lowest available ilvl is

[hollow spear]

400

[hallow night]

So do you ignore sims if prism is below something else?

[void needle]

I'm not sure that it is below anything else

[hollow spear]

me neither

[void needle]

The margin of difference between prism and even forge is huge

[warm marlin]

it won't be below anything else unless you're comparing like an lfr prism to a mythic forge

[hollow spear]

nothing beats the feeling of popping a fully juiced prism

hc saladbar platform

insane

[void needle]

I guess at 704 ilvl, prism beats any other trinket even at mythic

[bitter needle]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[mental kettle]

In the M+ trickster build are we supposed to try to get 2 STs per Dance?

[alpine wraith]

not always

only if cdr lets you

[mental kettle]

i remember this was a thing in DF

but ok makes sense

[hollow spear]

I don't think you realistically get two st per dance

[warm marlin]

[mental kettle]

oh yeah

dust xdd

[void needle]

Yeah, I've noticed especially with tornado you get enough cdr from spenders to sectech twice during tfd dances

[hollow spear]

the only time you can is during tfd + blades

[mental kettle]

is there any reason we do not macro symbols with dance in the M+ build?

[hollow spear]

That requires me to play tornado. Hard pass.

[high eagle]

How we feel about cursed stone idol and prism? Still lots of main stat passivly. Big crit boost on demand.

[solemn creek]

Prism + big pull after hoa 1st boss. U reach 30-40 million

[swift tinsel]

idol channel feels poopy

[solemn creek]

Prism is ridiculous

[tepid trellis]

reached 61mil on the pull after first boss priory with 18 stacks

was quite the rng

3 coup procs in 2 dances

[solemn creek]

Oh ya.. theres even more.mob there

[hollow spear]

hoa always reminds me of home owners' association

[swift tinsel]

highrolling raccoon

[hallow night]

Do you macro prism into sblades or do you have to hold it for stacks?

[tepid trellis]

i had some nasty rng today

[solemn creek]

Guys... dont worry.. next pull

[tepid trellis]

ngl

[hollow spear]

That takes a tank with balls tho

[tepid trellis]

i play with premades

so

[mental kettle]

Do you guys at all track the stored CPs?

[tepid trellis]

even if he doesent wanna pull 80% of the room in one

go

i make him

[hollow spear]

My last pug tank had major balls and died 3 seconds in 😄

[swift tinsel]

yeah, circles around my cp

1-7 red 8-14 yellow

[tepid trellis]

i check them when im about to press coup

other than that, no

[hazy breach]

If he wasnt the one pulling it why does he have aggro?

Checkmate

[tepid trellis]

EXACTLY

[void needle]

Better to die with balls than to not time because of cowardice

[mental kettle]

how does the stored points work?

[tepid trellis]

autos proc them

builders spend them

and sometimes

finisher spend them during Symbols

[mental kettle]

ah so bonus generation

[tepid trellis]

thats the giga tldr

[mental kettle]

this is new to TWW no?

[tepid trellis]

no lol

[mental kettle]

was it tracked in DF? tf

[tepid trellis]

ShT has been a thing since legion

functionality changed in DF

to what it is now

[swift tinsel]

its just been different

[mental kettle]

tbh I only played sub in last boss in DOTI

[swift tinsel]

same mechanism of auto attacks

[mental kettle]

so i was never a sub gamer

[swift tinsel]

but before it just straight up gave cp

instead of stored stacks

[hallow night]

It goes back to wrath of the lich king I think, but back then you’d just get the combo point from anyone critting in the raid

[swift tinsel]

good ol HaT

sent to icd jail then the scrap heap

[high eagle]

The shadowcraft part is newer right?

[hallow night]

Hims a Trombone I think it was

[empty plume]

wotlk hat was party based, became raid in cata with 2sec icd instead of 1sec

[tepid trellis]

s3 dragon flight

so about an expansion old

[twilit phoenix]

casual going absolutely bananas on sub rn

is it that cracked?

[weak hamlet]

do you guys have any tips to maximize dps on gambit first pull

i always seem to do mediocre dps

that pull

[tepid trellis]

he lost to an mm hunter

he is washed ong

[warm marlin]

dobby tier low key pad spec ive heard

[weak hamlet]

hunters need to be put down asap rn

[jagged rover]

wotlk HaT was so fun. finisher only rotation

[winter harbor]

Does the shadowcraft refund weakaura just sometimes not work? Fucking around on a dummy and I just get random refills without a sound trigger

[hallow night]

When it was brand brand new hat had a bug where if you made a party of rogues they gave each other unlimited combo points

[round grotto]

why is the tricks talent not giving me 1 hour buff

it's jus like the normal one

[tepid trellis]

sound trigger will bug out on coup

[void needle]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[round grotto]

just 30 sec

[hazy breach]

Hit a mob

[weak hamlet]

ye

[round grotto]

like before entering the dung or what

[jagged rover]

its 30 seconds to hit something, then 1 hour buff of the threat redirection

[round grotto]

ah

[weak hamlet]

any m+ers wanna spread their wisdom?

[winter harbor]

That makes sense, its usually during coup string

[mental kettle]

ty for the help guys much appreciate it

[heady shell]

Im curious, are we gonna get nerfed?

[swift tinsel]

don't stand in puddles

[warm marlin]

black powduh and use prism to make it up on later pulls

[novel marlin]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[swift tinsel]

itsa big pull unless your tank is a coward

bp go burr

[weak hamlet]

no prism T_T

[tepid trellis]

considering that we arent op, id say no

[brave harbor]

Guys last time I played sub rogue was in DF wtf happened to this spec. I dont understand anything

[swift tinsel]

if they stacked 3 or 4 of us in raid maybe

[hazy breach]

Clearly sub needs to be even lower

[swift tinsel]

even further beyond

[tepid trellis]

TRUE AND REAL

[swift tinsel]

lfg

[tepid trellis]

nerf us

[heady shell]

My concern with how well sub did in race for world first, i need that is top top

[swift tinsel]

DO IT YOU WONT

[heady shell]

But like would blizzard see that and be like alright, farewell

[swift tinsel]

what if sub is delete

[warm marlin]

mm continues to get away with it again

crazy stuff

[tepid trellis]

well looking at details is useless when they play augs

in the race

[swift tinsel]

feral on top is nice to see tho

they've been kicked around for expansions on end and get a glimmer of hope here and there

[hazy breach]

(Im aware linking fractilus only is disingenuous but were definitely not OP)

[tepid trellis]

so unless you have acess to liquid, echo or methods logs

[crystal bone]

even if u macro to blades and forget about it?

[hazy breach]

Ye

[crystal bone]

nice

[heady shell]

Gotcha, me shivering in my boots as I really enjoy sub and it's overall damage this season

[swift tinsel]

nerfing us would be a wild move

[high eagle]

Think they'll nerf prism?

[hazy breach]

I suspect theyll buff other classes

[swift tinsel]

ye we won't see direct nerfs

but other spec buffs will drop us down a bit

[tepid trellis]

doubt, considering there is only 2/3 classes that plays it

[swift tinsel]

antenna/forge still stronk

and like everyone else's bis combo

[lilac stag]

we're def transmog op. the netherspikes are so nice

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah netherspike goated if you got the purple

[crystal bone]

i want the myth netherspike mog so bad

[twilit phoenix]

are people using forge AND prism for sub?

[mental kettle]

One last question, do you guys spread bleeds before going into rotation on large aoe pulls in m+ where you're starting from stealth?

[warm marlin]

comparable to prism antenna

[tepid trellis]

i dont hhave those yet

but

[raw wadi]

maybe they´ll wait for more gear. It always felt like rogue are getting worse compared to others with gear.

[tepid trellis]

what enchant is that?

[lucid jackal]

It has its uses but is very overrated

Dh trinket/antenna are close in value to forge

Prism is core

[twilit phoenix]

yeah I figured prism is the key element

thanks bros

[lilac stag]

Chronos

[olive canyon]

in M+ do most people play the rotten?

[hallow night]

Not anymore idk why

I think I’ll make a second sblade macro that uses prism so I can hold it for 3 minutes on certain fights

[slender totem]

ive got some questions. im struggling a bit in keys atm Firstly do u send coup procs with less cp ever than full? send it outside SD? do you ever use symbols only without sd when waiting for blades? sry if newb questions.

[brazen steppe]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[slender totem]

always evis with full cp outside/inside of sd?

[slender totem]

okey nice

[eternal sequoia]

Can you guys send me what macros you use?

[slender totem]

whats the min stack of prism you should be sending it with?

[glacial kraken]

do u want the one that removes all the buttons from ur bar

[serene notch]

This is super interesting and does not match my lived experience 😄

[vivid cobalt]

how'd u get a recolor of the new bloodfang

[rapid forum]

where arms

[astral axle]

wh?

[lilac stag]

The Diablo 4 event

[eternal sequoia]

not all of them 😄

[glacial kraken]

its a very fun macro

trust

[eternal sequoia]

I need effective, not fun 🙂

[vale pine]

subtlety is in fact one of the worse pure st specs

[glacial kraken]

its will very effectively clear your bars

[vale pine]

but we are good in mixe fight styles

[swift tinsel]

love the burst aoe add destroyer play

[tender kettle]

Is holding Coup proc towards the tail end of a M+ pull better? And then send it with a set of Flag CDs?

If so, what would the opener kinda be assuming you dont want to waste procs of unseen blades?

[rustic mortar]

Why no More „the rotten“ Talent ?

[lucid jackal]

Only macro u should have is trinket/potion/racial with blades

and Cold Blood Sectec, separate from sectec without

All other macros are just a waste

[swift tinsel]

#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover,harm,nodead][] Rupture

[frank narwhal]

Are we doing the shuriken storm between coupes always now while in dance? I thought it was only during shadow blades

[eternal sequoia]

Can I make a macro so that my CB starts only after the second dance?

[lucid jackal]

No

You just need 2 different sectec buttons

One with, and one without cold blood

[sullen hare]

or the same sectec and a cold blood button

[terse wolf]

what talent allows this to happnen?

[lucid jackal]

shadowcraft

[swift tinsel]

shadowcraft

[terse wolf]

ty

[frank narwhal]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[crisp forum]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[frank narwhal]

So this says only during blades, but the wowhead guide says to always do it while in dance?

[lucid jackal]

Only in blades

[frank narwhal]

Is this an error then?

[lucid jackal]

yeh

[frank narwhal]

Okay cool, thanks

[crisp forum]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[woeful briar]

XD

[swift tinsel]

owned

really put you in your place there

[hollow spear]

Really living out the "pork" in "Porkius"

[astral axle]

"no wonder you never make it past 3k" man

that's really good

[woeful briar]

he got it wrong on so many levels

my reply was the ability linked but man was fast

[plush roost]

Ive been told i know nothing and wont make it past 3.1k since i didnt spam push keys first few weeks and my opinion is invalid

Im just like, uh buddy?

Who asked?

[astral axle]

I swear people in m+ think they are temporarily embarrassed .1% gamers who actually know everything going on and it like... ironically actively prevents them from learning about the game xD

[keen dome]

You see it a lot in heroic raid pugs, too.

It's extremely funny

They're just one pull away from the RWF.

[plush roost]

To get gud u must simply accept that you are bad

[astral axle]

🪷

[mental kettle]

something aint clicking

we have to use backstab to build UB on aoe right?

[hollow spear]

It's usually the hunters who refuse to do mechanics :^)

[keen dome]

Had an Evoker dump stars completely wrong on HSaladbar. I kick him, he spam whispers me about how without his DPS we'll never kill it, how he did the mechanic properly, etc.

We kill it next pull.

[keen dome]

Man, I've kicked so many hunters this season

[plush roost]

If you know you have ub ready you can for sure rip a bs, but all you need to do is maintain flawless form in aoe

[swift tinsel]

hey we have one of those

[high eagle]

I tell myself that after topping the meters in LFR.

[keen dome]

Valid tbh LFR is the real business

[swift tinsel]

as soon as they're asked to do anything suddenly their pc can't handle the game

[mental kettle]

do you track UB icd

i hate ub icd btw

[iron whale]

my god since whenThistle now auto-procs below 30energy???
I had no idea

[plush roost]

Yeah but honestly its kinda screen clutter for me, i go off vibes a lot

[keen dome]

Same pug. First pull we get to platforms. Hunter goes to the wrong side. We explode. Hunter immediately goes "man this 687 Shaman's DPS is shit, replace him!"

[plush roost]

Usually 10 seconds is when ill throw a bs

[mental kettle]

but i should be tracking flawless

[plush roost]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[plush roost]

The fw target tracker

Will change to flawless icon if u dont have it up

Very useful wa

[vale pine]

!coup has the explenation

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[keen dome]

Heroic Dimensius was remarkably painless to prog in a pug, which was nice.

[vale pine]

and yes its only during blades

[vale pine]

nicu

[keen dome]

Really well designed fight.

[vale pine]

our guild opted to use liquid weakauras on fraktilus, i was dissapointed

[keen dome]

I don't understand any group using them on heroic

[vale pine]

we spend half an hour debugging weakauras for heroic

haha

[brisk glade]

hello guys, any1 can give me the aura for The first dance?

[keen dome]

Every pug has had people being adamant but so far I or the lead have just gone "lmao use your eyes and count to six"

[swift tinsel]

we had a few issues with walls on heroic so a few of us were using liquid aura

I paid the patreon wall fee to get timeline reminder addon anyways

but imo yeah it should not be required or even really leaned on bc its very straightforward

[keen dome]

Saladbar's final phase is pretty wild on heroic, but the Dratnos video approach solves it so incredibly smoothly. Pugs are currently doing the most absurd things instead of just doing blue / purple split lol

[mental kettle]

@plush roost do you spread ruptures before going into full aoe blast

[swift tinsel]

we're hitting saladbar hc tomorrow

[keen dome]

It's an incredible fight

[void needle]

Yeah, people getting frustrated over the liquid fractilus wa not working pretty bad. No weakaura seems better

[swift tinsel]

and hopefully mythic next week

[keen dome]

I hope you have fun with it

[plush roost]

Spread as pull gathers as soon as its done go cds your cd timer > rupture value

[keen dome]

I should try to pug 2/8M before reset but I'm sleepy. I did AotC week 2, my effort is done.

[swift tinsel]

We've been skipping phases a lot in our normal clear and some heroic so I haven't gotten to see the full fight yet

outside rwf stream

like we don't get platforms

[keen dome]

I think after reset you'll see people consistently killing the dragon before he eats it during the amp.

We were really close in my own pug this week. He ate it when it had like 12% left

[uncut grove]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah dragon gets mauled

[keen dome]

Heroic boss HP feels lower than it should be in general

[swift tinsel]

that's been feeling like a trend for a few seasons now

relative heroic pulls are down a lot, at least anecdotally for our guild

[keen dome]

I don't really mind because most people can't do damage, esp in pugs, so it's pretty chill.

[paper surge]

I usually play assa but I will probably play sub for a few fights...as sub do I just do our single target and let my cleave do its thing like assa or will I be using storm at 5+ with black powder?

[crisp forum]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[swift tinsel]

yeah heroic for us is mostly vibes

[keen dome]

Although I do think Soul Hunters / Fract are way easier than they should be on heroic this tier. A lotta people are getting through Araz, and getting to Saladbar before they're ready

[swift tinsel]

normal is there for tier slots

ye we rolled soulhunters

[keen dome]

I two-pulled it and Fract in a pug last week and it was some real "lol it does no damage"

[swift tinsel]

fract took a few tries bc people being obstinate

[keen dome]

Saladbar with a competent lead explaining P3 is really chill, too.

It's explictly pug issues of P3 chaos + instant wipes that make it a nightmare

[swift tinsel]

I'm really excited to see a full later-phase saladbar hc

same with dimensius

[keen dome]

It's such a cool phase.

If you do the stars right, it's also extremely visually pretty

Having them all rotating on the same lane but in oppisite directions, and pulsing a cool pattern

[swift tinsel]

you basically just drop them in a 'line' so they orbit the middle area don't you

yeah

the dance looks super fun

our tanks can get kinda troll with boss movement though so that'll be a gripe I'm sure I'll have

[keen dome]

Kinda!

Blue come out first, so 3 on blue side. Then Purple next, 3 on purple. If done properly there's no succ due to proper placement balancing each other (like Ky'veza portals)

And then they rotate properly and the middle is clear after the initial waves.

Dratnos's video on the fight was an absolute gem for pugging it.

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah that sounds remarkably easy

[keen dome]

It effectively 'solves' the mechanic for you and you just have to do placement. And since Blue is always first you can just go "okay so it's coming out: did I get star? no. Did I get it on the next? Yes, so it's purple" etc.

Super chill and consistent.

I like it a lot because it completely removes having to think which is really important in a pug setting. Also no need to communicate.

This was the absolute best tier to pug lead. No Ovi'nax's or OAB / Lockensprockets to make me despair.

[loud brook]

Is it true that we can’t track unseen blade proc reset from normal attacks? Or even track whether unseen blade is ready or not? Sometimes I just spam ss during aoe and wondering if my unseen blade is ready should I press backstab or not.

I feel like I miss a lot coup playing mythic plus due to I can’t track unseen blade proc

[snow girder]

would you guys like it if blizz stopped making us do weird shit like pressing shuriken storm in ST for our tier piece? i just find it so counter intuitive and like forced complexity

[lucid jackal]

I don't think stuff like this is even intentional

Just an unfortunate side effect of how things work

I don't think they say "HMm how can we design a tier set for sub where you press shuriken storm on single target"

[snow girder]

yeah i agree with you on that

but i really think that means they have people designing the spec who dont really have a deep understanding of it

or thier goal is just to get it "good enough"

[lucid jackal]

That is the design of every spec designer

I don't think a single developer knows every single 0.1-0.3% optimization their spec has

[alpine wraith]

likely their time to make escalating stack more than 4 is long gone

so they just said cba

[serene notch]

I also wonder how accurate sim numbers are, it’s still some deviation from the real math?

[fallen crescent]

Then don’t press it if it’s too complex

[lucid jackal]

U can also just not do it, it's probably less than 0.2%

[snow girder]

its not too complex, im just discussing how it sticks out as strange

[fallen crescent]

It doesn’t imo. Because it’s all about maximizing coup.

[keen dome]

It's not strange or uncommon. You can look at pretty much any game and see players figuring out either unintentional or edge case optimizations. Design will approach it one way, but then people will find a way to apply other things to it.

[sick sand]

Do we pop symbols 20 secs before pull?

[fallen crescent]

Like assa had the deathstalker talent that had them press fok in st. It’s just a rotational difference to minmax.

[swift tinsel]

doesn't necessarily need to be 20 sec

if its a rez typically just hit sod right as you accept rez

[mighty citrus]

Can I immune the soak on forge before it happens or only use cloak for cleaning the debuff?

[snow girder]

idk i can see your point but i cant call pressing an aoe combo build in ST normal

[keen dome]

It isn't deisnged with the intention to do it. You do not have to do it.

We do it because we like to optmise and have found it's a bit of extra damage.

[serene notch]

Sims are based on whatever is published right? It’s not pulled in via some API directly from blizzard ?

[keen dome]

It's really not that deep or complex. Many such cases of it.

[lucid jackal]

Sin does it, Outlaw has done it

Theres a handful of specs that have done it

[lucid jackal]

What are you asking?

[snow girder]

how does sin do it now?

[lucid jackal]

clear the witness

[swift garnet]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[serene notch]

For sim calculations, the math behind it is done by whoever runs raidbot? I assume that there isn’t an API that fetches that directly?

[lucid jackal]

The sims are based on what we the community decide to use as an APL

The spell data is from the API though

[snow girder]

i would argue that it is intentional since the talent directly buffs FoN

[lucid jackal]

Why does it matter if its intentionally or not

You could also argue that it was never meant to be a talent you leverage on ST, and is only a talent you are meant to abuse in AoE

[serene notch]

Oh interesting was not aware that data was openly disclosed

[snow girder]

it shows a level of decision making on their part

[lucid jackal]

What if it was intentional because coup can't go over 4, to use storm?

[hazy breach]

Not being able to go above 4 is probably intended, because then we could pool even more shit than we already do

[snow girder]

back to my original point, i dont think pressing SS makes sense there since theres no talents or buffs enabling it

[swift tinsel]

you're pressing it bc of what it doesn't do

[hazy breach]

We should be able to stack a new coup with 4p up, but now we cant, so it is what it is

[lucid jackal]

But there are talents that enable it

Its danse, its the storm applies FW talent, it's EB only proccing from SS

WIthout talents like this, we wouldnt do it

[snow girder]

idk i guess we wont agree. im not trying to argue. Im just saying i find it weird to press SS in ST

[lucid jackal]

I also agree

[snow girder]

personally i dont think that was on purpose

on the devs part

it just fell into place

[lucid jackal]

But I don't think it's blizzard actively making these choices, it's just an unfortunate side effect of how the spec has been designed, It's also a minmax that you can completely ignore. I barely do it because I forget all the time

I don't think it's blizzard incompitence that players have found way to play a spec in unintuitive ways to find 0.2% damage

[swift tinsel]

plus spec discords offer a bit of a hivemind to find these kinds of things

[earnest jetty]

Rogue disc has remained relatively goated over the years tho

[summer peak]

!tinket

[high eagle]

.2% all fight, maybe echo kills before liquid. 🤣

[snow girder]

maybe my expectation is too high but i would hope once the devs see stuff like this emerging that they would make changes to make it more intuituve to play

[earnest jetty]

.2% of the individuals dps isn't the same as .2% boss health

[swift tinsel]

if its relatively low-impact it probably doesn't fit into the time budget

[snow girder]

yeah probably

[high eagle]

Yes.

[swift tinsel]

so they don't do anything about it

[lucid jackal]

It's also a case of like, it's not a giant issue lol

[vale pine]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[lucid jackal]

It's a part of the spec, it just is what it is

[swift tinsel]

yeah if it literally broke gameplay that'd be one thing

[lucid jackal]

This isn't some giant, all hands on deck, we need to fix this now

It's a dumb minmax

[swift tinsel]

but its literally just subbing one builder in for another

[lucid jackal]

Loads of specs are loaded with dumb minmaxes that are "unintuitive"

[snow girder]

yeah my expectation is prob too high

[swift tinsel]

can do storm, toss, shiv

[lucid jackal]

It's subbing 1 builder, in 1 condition, that can only happen in cooldowns

And fixing this "probleM" can very easily have unfortunate side effects

[swift tinsel]

which happens often

[limpid sage]

can you cloak the gravity thing

[swift tinsel]

see spatter currently

[limpid sage]

or just fucked

[lucid jackal]

So okay, you now make coup stack up to 8 charges, rather than just 4 so you can build coups between coups

Now the entire spec is played around getting 6+ stacks going into CDs

meaning spending more time, at max cp, spamming backstab

Is this better? Or is this worse?

[earnest jetty]

Way better make me sit around for 40 stacks please 🙂

10 min rotation inc

[warm marlin]

uncap escalating blade and have entire between flag window just cycling through dances and sectec/bp to stack as many coups as possible

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bongosub-sub-rogue-world-of-warcraft-rogue-aoe-gif-27554873

[keen dome]

hell yeah, our wise teacher

[earnest jetty]

For real though if they wanted to fix it they could just make coup a separate buff and problem solved

[keen dome]

the best rotation guide you could need

[earnest jetty]

but its not worth the time or effort

[swift tinsel]

nope they could have done that day 1 ptr but chose not to

[earnest jetty]

well yeah

thats why we're here pressing SS single target like chads

[swift tinsel]

could have changed it when it didn't work the first week and couldn't cast second coup

[sullen hare]

ah dragonflight sub

[lilac stag]

I’m quite curious if sub is on the block for “simplification” along with havoc.

[hidden jasper]

what's the exact range on the secret technique cleave?

[warm marlin]

outlaw is going to take the bullet for sub

[lilac stag]

one of the dev interviews made references to adjusting specific specs

[swift tinsel]

Idk I could see outlaw but sub isn’t that bad

[hidden jasper]

was it 8 yards?

[swift tinsel]

Combine flag into blades

[astral axle]

sub really isnt that complicated

[lilac stag]

My guy play BM and get back to be at the difficulty.

[swift tinsel]

Remove find weakness

[astral axle]

outlaw has a lot of crazy conditionals

[swift tinsel]

And that solves most of the weirdness with our general gameplay

[warm marlin]

they have also specifically gone on record saying outlaw is too weakaura reliant and they're looking into changes

[lilac stag]

Watch X amount of assa rogues (which many wow players find too difficult) crash and burn on sub

Outlaw doesn’t align with the boomer playerbase.

[near jetty]

which talent is better for m+ guys?

[lilac stag]

the m+ talents in ANY of the guides.

[swift tinsel]

BM is just even more ranged ret you can drool your way to victory

There are small simplifications they can make with sub that wouldn’t bottom out the gameplay

[jagged rover]

the hard parts of sub are when you combine it with mechanics and rogue mechanics. 2nd soak on mythic forgeweaver I'm doing a dance + symbols > sectec > shadowstrike + cloak > shadowstep tank at < 1 sec on soak > step Araz > coup > strike > coup

[swift tinsel]

Worst case scenario is taking away subs cd flexibility

[high eagle]

Maybe I'm still in the honeymoon but I love sub. Only thing I dislike is managing the offset buff of dance and symbols in CD windows. Kinda wish they just were always the same or just one button for both.

[jagged rover]

but the general rotation of sub isn't any harder than feral, havoc, etc

[lilac stag]

You think you’d like that, but you won’t. Not with supercharger.

[jagged rover]

I do think there are more decisions to be made on sub because of moving dances around and reducing cds though

[swift tinsel]

That’s also the only real execution challenge sub has

Otherwise it’s very scripted

You do zdps outside cds so using them properly is all that matters

[mental kettle]

bog

big

[swift tinsel]

Your dance/flag windows are mostly scripted minus the shadowcraft refunds

Maybe you get a second Sectech in tfd, maybe not

[lilac stag]

which is enough to cause chaos for avg player.

sub burst was truly scripted back in legion

[swift tinsel]

Then they can either actually practice to get better or play something else

[high eagle]

It is scripted but, I love the fact that perfect execution in that chaotic CD window matters. Rather than just ensuring frenzy weak aura is in the middle of my screen and never letting it fall off on BM hunter. 😂

[mental kettle]

Coup doesnt give CDR like it does on outlaw right?

[lilac stag]

if they’re clearly focusing on accessibility and easing gameplay I think it’s gonna get looked at.

[swift tinsel]

Coup gives more cdr

Than a regular evisc

[mental kettle]

but only on Sec Tec and dance right

[swift tinsel]

Yeah those are our only cdr elements

[mental kettle]

aha ok

i thought it also reduced flag

[astral axle]

scath bro i mean this with love but you're always looking for the next thing to doom about; it'll probably be fine 😌

[swift tinsel]

We don’t have restless blades

Only things that reduced flag was Dust and Obedience

[mental kettle]

nimble flurry does THIS much damage overall tf

[lilac stag]

Not a doom at all. The spec is convoluted with a lot of awful talents / useless talents. Streamlining would be a welcomed event.

[swift tinsel]

Yeah if they smoothed out sub’s rough edges it would be amazing, sub is already incredibly fun

[lilac stag]

Streamlining doesnt mean it’s braindead

[swift tinsel]

Just a bit of clutter in the spec and hero tree

Redundant buffs in trickster, weak/dead spec talents

Find weakness/shadowed finishers

[lilac stag]

the “dev(s)” actually need to sit down and look at it. Whomever they maybe going into midnight.

I won’t shy away from my displeasure with how subs dev cycle has been handled.

4pc makes it enjoyable. Base kit is still fubar

DS fubar

[spiral needle]

all 3 rogue specs feel like the dev cares more about interesting/unique ideas than if the spec feels good to play

[swift tinsel]

Um

Our spec tree is all recycled

Like

Almost entirely

[lilac stag]

feels like the dev goes for the lowest hanging fruit and gives every type of dmg profile to assa.

[swift tinsel]

Legendary powers, artifact abilites, Azerite traits

[misty hedge]

During our big cds do we SD as soon as the first one is coming off? or do we wait for Symbols to come off before using SD + Symbols again?

[young roost]

what key was this?

[upbeat garden]

poweder first?

[lost rampart]

Hey everyone, I have two things I want clarification/correction on if people don't mind:

1. During our SB window w/4p of our tier set, we go Coup -> SS -> Coup, but does this apply outside of our SB window for ST as well? If I Coup-> SS (only get 2 CP), do I still use Coup right after or should I keep building with SS to get more CP?

2. In 4+ targets, during our SD window, Shadowstrike is our builder and BP is our spender. Is this true regardless of Coup and/or Flawless Form stacks?

[swift tinsel]

Black powder go brrrrr