and shiv
#subtlety
bleak night
felt like you were actually doing something during your burst
instead of mut>envenom
chrome palm
so if tea were impactful enough (like if you really wanted to buff kingsbane), then you could manually press it; which i am saying is somewhat similar to if master assassin is good enough, youd vanish as well
theyre different obviously
idk sin just has no buttons anymore
boring spec
no pooling
deadge
left ledge
I feel like it kinda never had buttons
lucid jackal
Sin has barely had buttons, it's sort of by design
bleak night
it certainly was never complex in st by any means
chrome palm
sin at the start of df had quite a few buttons
bleak night
its just had a noticable drop off since the rework
chrome palm
manual bonespike and such
lucid jackal
Which is fine! I enjoy current sin a lot. FB and deathstalker both feel great to me imo
left ledge
I remember playing sin in DF a lot and it was kind of just as brainless
chrome palm
honestly i think they just need to bring the pooling back
lucid jackal
It's chill tho not every spec needs to be a brain blaster
chrome palm
it feels really bad that youre energy starved but there is like no reason for it
bleak night
yeah i agree
left ledge
I don’t remember ever really needing to pool or at least needing to think about it
You kinda couldn’t really press buttons
chrome palm
i think that means you need to undo the change to twist the knife
lucid jackal
U used to pool in s1
left ledge
Or you could
left ledge
U used to pool in s1
Of this expac?
chrome palm
with twist the knife you just spam spam spam
lucid jackal
The they made ttk stack and then ever since pooling has been fake
lucid jackal
Of this expac?
Yes
bleak night
yup
lucid jackal
And in DF too
left ledge
Oh yeah idk I didn’t play s1 this one
lucid jackal
All of DF u would want to pool
left ledge
Weird I don’t really remember pooling actively
chrome palm
hell you used to have the talent as assa for increased damage 6s after a finisher
lucid jackal
They changed ttk in DF s1.5 and ever since sin has not cared about pooling
chrome palm
i forget what it was called
vale pine
#buffsubtlety
left ledge
I feel like in DF I either didn’t have energy for anything so I afk
dusk stone
wow how did max and liquid become completely dementia'd about how sub rogue works over a patch
lucid jackal
wow how did max and liquid become completely dementia'd about how sub rogue work...
Huh
dusk stone
in their comms they are acting clueless about how sub works
literally confused about its damage profile
left ledge
I don’t think max himself ever really had a strong fundamental understanding of sub tbf I don’t think it’s his job
lucid jackal
Nobody knows how any spec works except their own, and barely so
dusk stone
its not just max
left ledge
Yeah same with most of them
lucid jackal
Remember when MDI casters were talking about feral druid funnel
dusk stone
its like half of them
left ledge
People forget
bleak night
yeah its the rogues job in liquid to tell the others how it works
left ledge
These players aren’t know it alls
bleak night
do you perfectly know every other specs damage profile
chrome palm
some people still think sub funnels 
left ledge
They’re just good at their role and mechanics
chrome palm
had my tank pull the trash into eco first boss for "sub funnel"
dusk stone
i make a point of it to have a cursory amount of knowledge yes
left ledge
Sub is a nuanced spec
lucid jackal
Of every spec in the game..?
left ledge
Without many players
It was the least played spec in the game
So I wouldn’t blame them
lucid jackal
I know rogue, my main alt, and that's kinda it
Lol
Why tf would I need to know about enhance
left ledge
Yeah like I know ww and rogue
bleak night
yeah idk they have like a million other things to worry about than what damage profile sub has
let the rogues deal with that
left ledge
I don’t really know where warrior excels outside of execute maybe
chrome palm
tanking
left ledge
I don’t know what to look for when a warlock is going to pop off
Like as sub I know exactly where I can do a ton of damage
And how
I just need to see it once
If I hopped on lock I wouldn’t know what the fuck is going on
alpine wraith
I don’t really know where warrior excels outside of execute maybe
they have nerfed their execute into the ground
they do nothing now kinda
alpine wraith
but after all nerfs to slayer executioners precision and juggernaut
left ledge
But honestly I think people need to adopt the viewpoint more
The rwf people aren’t perfect in knowledge
alpine wraith
you whole identity
left ledge
They’re playing what they think is best
alpine wraith
meanwhile specs like assa
void ocean
so, kings, when r we shutting down discord
alpine wraith
HEHE 1 talent
left ledge
They could be wrong
alpine wraith
they also can make mistakes kinda
left ledge
Yeah so clearly sub rogue is a good choice based on what we saw
But if none of them ran rogue
You’d prob have SO many guilds
bleak night
tbf i dont know if it was really a mistake at first
left ledge
Sitting rogues
bleak night
like liquid spent a lot of time progging how to deal with adds and such
keen trellis
!wa
wicked joltBOT
bleak night
once they got that down they could focus more on how to get highest boss damage
which echo showed was to bring in a sub rogue
void ocean
im thinking of going sub for all 3-5 boses
bleak night
and echo didnt need to prog how to deal with adds as much because they could take from liquid
alpine wraith
then they remembered rogue has a 75% slow
bleak night
yeah i dont think exile was really doing much to adds though he was ethical eviscerate gaming
at least the times i watched
bleak night
perfecto was
alpine wraith
that was perfecto iirc
bleak night
exile mightve swapped at some point i didnt watch his pov for the kill
but at first he wasnt
left ledge
They underestimated bp on liquid idk
That button is fucking cracked
Most buffed ability in game history prob
bleak night
midnight we bp in st
bleak night
midnight=dark bp=dark midnight=bp
left ledge
But I need to see that bp ascension
Yeah the 4p is so weirdly weak
The 2p is crazy though
left ledge
Like I don’t understand the 4p
Why did they go with that
Consumes a mark stack
Ok 
Cool I guess
iron fjord
it's so bad when the devour puddle is too far away
jagged rover
we forced our range to push the circles closer
left ledge
Yeah
alpine wraith
hmmm
left ledge
You have to angle your knock
To be in melee whole time
It’s kinda weird
At least rogue can’t fall off
So sometimes I just fkin stand right up against the edge
Just step back if it goes sideways
bleak night
stonks
jagged rover
I just step our dk every knock
upbeat escarp
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
bleak night
i didnt know the boes could roll solo stats
lucid jackal
They can roll any ratio iirc
Something to keep in mind is that champ track is basically equal to hero track atm
And u can snipe some insane rings on champ track since Ur never spending gilded on rings this early
lucid jackal
Bro the mythic ones that are good will literally be gold cap
west tide
wow sub looked amazing on araz mythic
bleak night
Yeah that shit is going to make people generational wealth
west tide
chat idk how to play sub its been a few tiers gotta go in da lab
west tide
__**Coup de Grace Optimizations:**__
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finisher...
this is nasty nvm goodbye
bleak night
lucid jackal
There's also my post which is still mostly accurate
stoic pier
Whats the best raid bot Sim Options for M+ ?
distant sage
do we marco netherprsim to our shadowblades or are we witing stack
wild hornet
heady tangle
guys when do i break season 2 4p
dusk stone
when you get 2p for 2p + 2p
alpine wraith
Bro the mythic ones that are good will literally be gold cap
i have quite a bit of gold
a little bit lets say
but full mastery wont be super contested i guess
woven birch
Is there a specific disc for mop rogues?
cobalt vector
Is there a specific disc for mop rogues?
check out #classic-discussion pins it has some resources linked
woven birch
tyvm
gaunt bluff
does tricks function differently between outlaw and sub? i feel like on outlaw i never get aggro from hitting a mob early but if i shadowstrike on sub even after tank hits something i can still get meleed
sullen hare
Yes
Not on a fundamental level but since we go trickster it lasts for an hour and you just kinda cast it and forget about it
Prox aggro and slapping an add before the tank even glances at it will still get you though
dusk stone
we sure dawnbreaker is sub key? watching yoda and they're running sin for it
lucid jackal
It is day 6 of m±
lofty tundra
Eco dome spam for the trinket be like
lucid jackal
I don't think there is a hardcore meta yet
shadow lance
I had a group that was calling for a rogue
I mean, begging
I asked why, they told me "It's the meta comp mate"
sure
🤣
lofty lance
sub is so fun on forgereaver araz XD
but spec needs buff for sure, need a bit more ST
maybe buff evis by 4%
summer lynx
You know if we just disable this channel, you think blizz will give us a buff too?
lofty lance
i say we try
swift tinsel
Clown move ngl
lucid jackal
Considering the paladin ones didn't cause the buffs I don't think so
chrome palm
how long does rogue stay in this comp
dusk stone
am i pressing coups at all outside of dance
gaunt bluff
Prox aggro and slapping an add before the tank even glances at it will still get...
no not really like prot pala can throw their shield
then i shadowstrike and still get slapped through tricks
i mean last season i played outlaw with trickster too and its the same hour long tricks
hazy breach
we sure dawnbreaker is sub key? watching yoda and they're running sin for it
While pugging its absolutely a sub key, however if you pull tons of mobs onto the minibosses sin might be fine
loud gyro
if im in aoe and i am entering shadow dance, it is preferible to use one backstab for a stack of danse macabre??
bleak night
then i shadowstrike and still get slapped through tricks
Shadowstrike puts you right on the mob so more likely for it to slap your booty before tricks does it's thing
Outlaw normally further away
dusk stone
While pugging its absolutely a sub key, however if you pull tons of mobs onto th...
so its gonna be close or are we getting gapped
hazy breach
Idk sub is cracked too
sullen hare
no not really like prot pala can throw their shield
I don't know what to tell you other than I wait for that shield to land before I shadowstrike
sullen hare
if im in aoe and i am entering shadow dance, it is preferible to use one backsta...
Generally playing around stackmaxxing isn't necessary but it is a small optimization during ST. I don't think it's even relevant for AOE
!dance
Ah damn I don't know what the command is
!backstab maybe?
wicked joltBOT
Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.
sullen hare
Well that isn't the one but it is kinda relevant
night sparrow
Isnt it worth with 4p when you get your 1m30 back + coup proc at the same time, to flag > max cp coup > bs (or even FoK to avoid missing unseen blade) > coup > dance/symb > bs > blades + ST ? So we get maximumflag stacks for the first sectec (and maybe use a CB out of burst)
tepid trellis
nope, you really wanna get the first sectech out fast so it comes back up faster
night sparrow
alright ty
tepid trellis
and if you actually do the "afk" 10 sec before
alpine wraith
you have lots of sht
night sparrow
so hold and flag > rupture or flag > bp to delay ?
tepid trellis
you usually have enough ShT stacks to do Sectech-coup-storm-coup
night sparrow
alright thx ♥
shadow lance
you usually have enough ShT stacks to do Sectech-coup-storm-coup
You got an idea how many stacks?
tepid trellis
just depends on how many autos you get off or if you have skyfury or not
you need 7 stacks for a refund
night sparrow
sec tech > coup > coup > evisc gang
shadow lance
Btw, I use the wa that make sound when refund but sometimes, i hit 7 ShT during the animation of coup, so I get the refund but not alert
Am I the only one wit hthat issue?
shadow lance
I track the stacks on my screen
But it's during animation, I already press a builder cuz I had no stacks enough
I think I should reduce the lag input
drifting fable
netherprism is every shadowblades or every other
swift tinsel
either or
if it makes sense to hold for bigger 3min you can
otherwise treat like a 1.5min and macro to blades
silent ruin
is soleah's secret technique simmed for with which stat ?
kind bluff
I've been going dance> coup> symbols>coup> sectech
gaunt bluff
are mouseover macros bugged on dummies?
i wanted to get used to doing mouseover on rupture but it always targets the one closest to me instead of my mouseover
elder path
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
tepid trellis
Am I the only one wit hthat issue?
coup can refund on all of the hits during the 1.2sec lockout
so yeah it can happen
and the wa is set to like play a sound within 0.3
but you cant really put it at 1 sec cuz then it will play when you build after finishers
so its just bad, and blizzard should fix it so only the first 1-2 hits of coup can refund
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
tepid trellis
its also mentioned in here
shadow lance
Hmmm, alright, thanks for precision Stealthi
runic sequoia
Man if they fixed that but before making the coup set bonus it would be so great
I always login every ptr build and test to see if they fix it+submit a bug report lol
alpine wraith
if youa re full on pvp first get a set of crafted gear
then you get weapons for free next week
maybe get trinkets
summer crest
!macros
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
mild carbon
if youa re full on pvp first get a set of crafted gear
i think thats what i did but im not sure
dusk stone
uhm
alpine wraith
craft with these ones if possible
dusk stone
you're not suppose to get hero track from +6's right
alpine wraith
alpine wraith
you're not suppose to get hero track from +6's right
yea they begin to drop at +6
mild carbon
i crafted purple neck/2x rings with vers/mastery and the rest are honor gear except for a couple pieces that i couldnt find vers/mastery
is conquest trinket better than honor oneby alot?
dusk stone
offhand isnt worth crafting next week is it
quasi mantle
you can sim it™ but no generally not offhand is doody poopbutt
grizzled acorn
What's are rotation for aoe with new tier set? Do we want to spam storm and black powder during dance, or do we want to spam shadow strike and black powder?
dusk stone
you generally just storm once for FW with TR and its strike bp but check the wowhead guide it explains it
loud gyro
Generally playing around stackmaxxing isn't necessary but it is a small optimiza...
aah i see, thanks man!
sullen hare
netherprism is every shadowblades or every other
Every if prism and antenna but other if double on use like forge
If that sounds cryptic I'll explain further
ornate slate
half comet
!tea
wicked joltBOT
Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```freedom
tepid trellis
87
random mason
Damn
warm marlin
30 dbs and no ring 💀
crystal blaze
;is this spec energy starved still
shrewd lantern
;is this spec energy starved still
sometimes outside cds
crystal blaze
only sometimes
short radish
!design
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
random mason
Bc outlaw too hard
jagged rover
for me its because of weapons
jagged rover
so easy to snag all the daggers as the only rogue in the raid
shrewd lantern
outlaw actually kind of cranks
jagged rover
and I cant use outlaw weapons for sin/sub
random mason
And weapon locked
crystal blaze
outlaw actually kind of cranks
it does decent damage but requires at least 3 yrs experience playing piano
shrewd lantern
it does decent damage but requires at least 3 yrs experience playing piano
Not really
But thats a gcd capped spec for you
random mason
You just gotta consume twice the healthy amount of caffeine
shrewd lantern
You just gotta consume twice the healthy amount of caffeine
You mean 500mg isnt healthy?
random mason
Idk whats the healthy limit
crystal blaze
i know the solution is "dont play it if you dont like it" but i invested more than i would have liked and realized it didnt fit me as well as i thought it did
shrewd lantern
sub is only really piano during cds
random mason
Can always try assa
shrewd lantern
then kinda chill till cds are back
I feel sub during cds is more piano with how off gcd it is
crystal blaze
i did and i dont like being energy starved on bosses
class needs more gas
more rocket fuel
random mason
Well get a mace or sword and play outlaw
shrewd lantern
energy is cosmetic for outlaw if you dont make mistakes
random mason
If u crafted dagger its not a problem
crystal blaze
ive been playing outlaw
but im being kneecapped by all my drops having mastery on them
crystal blaze
and kneecapped by crest cap because 3 of my bis items are crafted
random mason
and kneecapped by crest cap because 3 of my bis items are crafted
Youre capped by sparks u mean
random mason
but im being kneecapped by all my drops having mastery on them
Yeah thats the outlaw experience
random mason
Is the dagger craft for ultimate flexibility dead
crystal blaze
i dont think the crit+vers rings and belt will serve me well on ass/sub but im not sure
tribal blade
me and my guildies have pugged into 3 keys so far and gotten either insta kicked or they immediately leave group
is there something going on
random mason
i dont think the crit+vers rings and belt will serve me well on ass/sub but im n...
Its fine on assa but ypu dont like those specs anyway so why worry about it
crystal blaze
external pressures mostly
shrewd lantern
Yeah i mean its kind of putting up numbers
just dont look at extended downtime
or damage amps
tepid trellis
what did u farm
head
glacial wind
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
dusk stone
i did and i dont like being energy starved on bosses
Were running tea this season, it doesn't feel the same for keys. For raid we're still doing cb
Also with 4pc and coup even being outside of dances is less afk
gaunt bluff
If i send a sectec/coup in the last moment of a dance, are all the hits damage buffed or only the first hit?
gaunt bluff
damn i see
do u know the approximate seconds i need sectec to be on cd so i can send a full one before dance expires?
if i do dance preemptively to just shadowstrike eviscerate for cdr
steel zinc
Unfortunately the last hit is the biggest
how much sec does dance need to have left to send sectech in the first dance?
1.5, 2?
steel zinc
and what happens if we just spam press dance do the clones land in the new dance?
I just feelcraft it when I think a full sectech wont make it I wont use it in that first dance
hazy breach
Clones attack after 1s and 1.3s
If you have dance up by the time the clones land theyll get the damage amp
steel zinc
If you have dance up by the time the clones land theyll get the damage amp
so we press sectech dance ends and since its off gcd dance you just send again we should be fine?
hazy breach
Ye
dusk stone
Have I been doing it wrong only sending sectec as 2nd gcd after dance starts + with symbols outside of dance
gaunt bluff
also hypothetically if u had a coup, dance, symbols all ready but sectec is under 8 seconds cd
Would u dance -> symbols -> coup -> sectec
or wait energy/send another finisher and wait sectec cd?
iirc coup and sectec first on supercharged isnt that diff
dusk stone
Sectec
Gives flawless
I was watching earlier and without sectec you aren't guaranteed to have ff pre coup
zealous hedge
so does dry sec tbh
dusk stone
Yeah so in cds we're only pressing sectec with supercharger right
There's not a time when you use it without it
gaunt bluff
I have my dmg numbers off bruh i cant tell what feels bad or not
I just look at my details
dusk stone
Idk all my parses feel weird to me this season
sullen hare
zealous hedge
dry sectec even on open world mobs does less damage than my asshole
dusk stone
All of my non flag windows are cranking but I can't get my flag windows to pop over 20 aside in fg
zealous hedge
i dont think it matters THAT much
sullen hare
Me when I'm feeling really naughty and throw a sectec in the coups because why the hell not
gaunt bluff
I mean from all the guides i read ur first globals in cds are backstab sb sectec > w/e
gaunt bluff
but i asked a while ago if doing supercharged coup is still better or not and iirc its not much dmg difference?
u just get more cdr on sectec if u do sectec first
tepid trellis
you only really care about sectech being super charged
zealous hedge
yeah i think at that point its just better if its close to CD like 7 or 8+ seconds
tepid trellis
but if you had to choose, then 2nd coup cast with 4set would be the 2ndbest
dusk stone
but if you had to choose, then 2nd coup cast with 4set would be the 2ndbest
Do we do 'dry sectec' while in flag window at all
tepid trellis
no
dusk stone
Thanks
dusk stone
Well dry sectec meaning no supercharger
tepid trellis
also no
gaunt bluff
also hypothetically if u had a coup, dance, symbols all ready but sectec is unde...
@tepid trellis what do u think is better here?
dusk stone
Also does coup apply FF retroactively to itself
hazy breach
Im late to the party because my split was today but bro when the 2p procs and you get to just coup all the time it goes so hard 
hazy breach
Also does coup apply FF retroactively to itself
The flawless form stacks are applied on cast yes
So it applies to the entire cast of coup
tepid trellis
<@83652604344664064> what do u think is better here?
what i try to do in that case is Dance-coup-Symbols sectech- coup
dusk stone
The hell am I doing wrong then. All my flag bp windows feel like ass so far in 11's
gaunt bluff
makes sense
dusk stone
Not seeing above 20
gaunt bluff
u look at that shit even?
dusk stone
Yes to see if I am making mistakes
gaunt bluff
tbh i never looked at my ff stacks do i need to?
hazy breach
tbh i never looked at my ff stacks do i need to?
No
dusk stone
What key?
gaunt bluff
but my weapons are fucking 690 ilvl
dusk stone
Thing is my tank also isn't a goober and does good pulls
tepid trellis
not sure what id do with a fast details update
dusk stone
My non flag dances I see like 12-14 sometimes but the flag windows are mid somehow
Unsure why
zealous hedge
Told her id show her my sub rotation in the bedroom, fucked up my symbols and sectech didnt hit as hard, missed a global after my supercharged coup, and my rupture fell off 20 seconds ago without me noticing, worst parse of my life, needless to say she ghosted me after
random mason
not sure what id do with a fast details update
Snap that 50mil plus burst to shoe youre the bigger gamer
alpine wraith
I hit 45m with a full 18 stack
blastermaster
simple crag
dagger :3
heady shell
I can't wait for 4 piece with double coup
gaunt bluff
btw I'm just making sure the tooltip isnt fucked but i dont have to hit the flaggelation target for the extra dmg on it right
hazy breach
You do not indeed
alpine wraith
dhs dead
next otter
!gear
wicked joltBOT
gaunt bluff
i have like 20 streets runs
and no dagger
I was starting to think its not in the pool
simple crag
hardmode only item
simple crag
Did you get this from hardmode tazavesh
yes
gaunt bluff
my hardmode got bricked by mailman bugging my teammate 
heady shell
Dang, my group is scared to attempt it
coarse gazelle
guys is it normal for me to sim this low dmg even without any tier set
short radish
just fdk things
zealous hedge
Frot is frost lol
hazy breach
Havent done hardmode yet but i had a bug in a key where it would just instantly throw it once i picked it up
So i was pretty much just juggling it
Really fucking odd
alpine wraith
that is kinda how you do it but what a beast
left ledge
holy fk
exodia group for a key im about to run
prot war, resto sham, ww monk, havoc dh
hazy breach
lofty lance
do you guys think that sub will get nerfed?
alpine wraith
are you ok
lofty lance
xd
short radish
i want to say no
lofty lance
same
short radish
but you can never be too sure
hazy breach
Probably not, and if so we would absolutely gett singletarget buffs to compensate
tepid trellis
only thing i could see happen is nimble flurry lowered and evis buffed
but then again
gaunt bluff
doesnt blizz only care about raid balance
gaunt bluff
we dont look too hot do we
heady shell
My guild has me single target on forge weaver and leave aoe to others
Since nimble flurry does decent aoe
lofty lance
i could never do that xd
lucid jackal
doesnt blizz only care about raid balance
they care about both but raid is the focus
tepid trellis
goes crazy
short radish
yeh why not make the best spec in the game for night
sorry best i can do is allow warlocks free reign to do whatever the fuck they want and funnel them every piece of gear
lucid jackal
I mean exile wasn't BPing afaik
alpine wraith
they already had all their comp around ccs and other thing
but also depends on comp a lot
alpine wraith
sub st is actually its weakest part
lofty lance
sub st is not that good
alpine wraith
funnily enough rn
heady shell
Really?
alpine wraith
yes
heady shell
Crazy
lofty lance
i will not be surprised if i see a 4% evis buff
alpine wraith
10% evis buff nerf nimble
tepid trellis
I mean exile wasn't BPing afaik
correct he did not
alpine wraith
rn it does very decent aoe/cleave bursty
lofty lance
sub is in a good spot for keys rn
heady shell
Agreed
winter ice
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
winter ice
!wa
wicked joltBOT
mental dune
are we thinking on nexus king its best to just rip nether every big cd or hold till 3 min add phase? or maybe even use on 1.5 min then hold till big damage amp?
lotta appealing options but cant tell which is best for damage
hazy breach
18 for add is probably higher overall but 18 for damage amp better to actually kill the boss
You can send 9 on 1:30 and then have 18 for 4:30
coarse flare
guys is it fine to macro trinket to shadowblades?
short radish
guys is it fine to macro trinket to shadowblades?
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
short radish
yes
hazy breach
Yes
coarse flare
🫡
warm marlin
does anyone by chance have a raid event to start with coup already ready
raid_events+=/buff,buff_name=escalating_blade,stacks=4,first=0,cooldown=999999 this no work
jk wrote it wrong xd
edited above works
zealous hedge
Nado or rep shadows for M+? or is it pref
hazy breach
does anyone by chance have a raid event to start with coup already ready
Burst is big with this enabled
warm marlin
how could i forget
i got everything else
also fun fact: prism is a more than 20% gain on a 2min fight like this if you prestack it
over 710 lily (for my character)
dire jolt
oh sweet, we've actually seen both hero specs? That's cool.
steel horizon
when the 2 piece procs, you get 2 stacks of escalating blade right?
chrome palm
are we holding for 2 min big spawn on soulbinder?
2nd big spawn seems to be around ~4:30
so if you wanna hit both then you need to hold for an entire minute
any knowers
dusk stone
Bro casters still believe sub rogue has funnel, that's funny
chrome palm
was around 2:10 4:10 for us
assa doubters in shambles
the 1:00 blades hold
goes hard
swift tinsel
as a certified Knife Guy I approve the details name
warm marlin
assa doubters in shambles
show boss dmg
warm marlin
hmm
chrome palm
smh
warm marlin
the evidence is damning
chrome palm
how does blizzard see this and not buff sub 
tepid trellis
cuz u held cds
short radish
so i held for 1 minute
i did the same, but our problem was add damage for some reason
tepid trellis
u lil freak
warm marlin
warm marlin
damn not the callout
short radish
r1 lets gooo
warm marlin
im doing sub on farm next week I think for that boss
time to pad
surely the guild will appreciate this
short radish
to be fair we 5 healed it
because we only had 2 main healers online
so had to make our ret play holy for the first time in 10 years
chrome palm
holy
short radish
the choice was either "make our ret go holy, or wake up our tanks partner from bed"
short radish
we struggled with the dot
warm marlin
it helped us when our raid lead froze for a minute straight 
tall girder
Where boswald
short radish
fighting the internet demons
tall girder
Fuark sounds like you need a 4th warlock
short radish
do not look at our warlocks on that fight
tribal blade
so i'm confused, i have the boots but my cloak is doing the same amount of dmg as people w/o it
unless i'm not understanding how the boots work
bleak night
tribal blade
is there actually a bug with the boots
tall girder
i was also briefly r1 (of 1) for that
My goat
brisk onyx
What?
short radish
who?
bleak night
bleak night
you're playing sub though
tribal blade
ok i unequipped the cloak and it's doing more dmg now
bleak night
astral axle
you're playing sub though
round latch
my almost 705 ass about to be bottom dps ong
100 parse guaranteed
short radish
ok i unequipped the cloak and it's doing more dmg now
so it was bugged?
upbeat sorrel
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
upbeat sorrel
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
shadow sluice
!up
wicked joltBOT
tepid trellis
its a vibe when it back2back procs
not such fun when it doesent proc at all during blades
bleak night
yeah fair lmao
is it still the same amount of dances between blades as before, or did it give us enough cdr to sneak in more?
haughty mural
Got it midraid yesterday and it for sure is fun and impactful
haughty mural
is it still the same amount of dances between blades as before, or did it give u...
Iirc not much
blissful yacht
Did anyone tried trinket Cursed-Stone Idol? In guide its in D tier but in bloodmallet its 3rd highest simming trink for sub
haughty mural
1 dance per 10 minutes extra I think eleem said
tepid trellis
is it still the same amount of dances between blades as before, or did it give u...
its the same
bleak night
limpid sage
not such fun when it doesent proc at all during blades
When it feels like you’re playing without a tier set
stoic pier
!up
wicked joltBOT
terse dirge
Are we still using BP in aoe outside of dance? I’m confused the video I watched says use eviscerate but the wowhead says use Bp with 3 or more targets.
short radish
Are we still using BP in aoe outside of dance? I’m confused the video I watched ...
video out of date
use bp
also what video
terse dirge
Shindig video from 6 days ago.
rapid oasis
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your ...
p 0 hol
ntpl
i
short radish
are you having a stroke?
tepid trellis
Are we still using BP in aoe outside of dance? I’m confused the video I watched ...
4 targets = BP
both in and out of dance
tame terrace
bleak night
depends on how ethical you want to be
ethical choice is eviscerate but the fun choice is bp
jagged rover
I did some BPs while waiting for cds to come back up, but really its just pad. Everything is going to die to your and the arcane mages cds
rocky ocean
If only your average arcane mage was that good
gaunt bluff
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your ...
i don't really understand how does supercharging evisc do more dmg here than the cold blood sectec? iirc its also mentioned on wowhead its a small cold blood optimization but what exactly does it do?
stoic pier
!up
wicked joltBOT
haughty mural
i don't really understand how does supercharging evisc do more dmg here than the...
Supercharger effects the next two finisher
You essentially supercharge the evis there if you have 11sec left on sectech cd to get the cdr for it
Tldr: you have supercharged both the evis and the cold blood sectech in this picture
shy scarab
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
robust marsh
Question guys, new to rogue, when perfect form is up is it best to use single target finishers or black powder?
My single target is okay, but my aoe is bloody horrible
clever holly
And coup?
tepid trellis
coup whenever possible
narrow lotus
Doesn't Find Weakness matter for evis vs bp? I'm confused on the finisher prio. On Soul Hunters is it always evis with flawless form and bp without flawless form?
clever holly
Leveling up at addon start skilling coup was a dmg loss and dangerous and now it's the best button 
tepid trellis
Doesn't Find Weakness matter for evis vs bp? I'm confused on the finisher prio. ...
yes FW matters, otherwise you dont get shadowed finishers dmg
narrow lotus
So FW on all 3 = bp?
clever holly
I just opt for bleed assa there
tepid trellis
its neutral ish on 3
generally speaking FW is not something you have overly worry about, its always gonna be on your main target cuz you press shadow strike
and your off targets gets whenever you press storm outside of dances
clever holly
Tanks won't group them half of the fight anyways
runic trail
Finally got 4 piece, looking forward to trying out the double coup
Just need to get through work
clever holly
I'm sitting on 0 pieces but got nether prism
hollow spear
Melee dps eating good on soul hunters
ripe zephyr
Why are we taking The First Dance in ST? I know its not a mistake, but what interaction am I missing?
warm marlin
weaponmaster (the alternative) is really really really bad
and 4 seconds of dance on pull during lust pot is alright
warm marlin
the second hit procs after shadow techniques gives you combo points, so the extra combo points generated are very often wasted
haughty rose
did this change now from last season? afaik last season weaponmaster was the way to go over tfd no?
at some point weaponmaster has to be better right? like >4 minutes weaponmaster <4 minutes tfd?
(numbers are just an example)
vernal breach
dear sub gamers, do I wanna press netherprism every second shadowblades or everytime I have my go?
haughty rose
the breakpoint for tfd was like 4 minutes
crazy. yeah just checked fuu's guid and apparently it's 6 minutes this season. also i assume 6 minutes uptime on the target
does any boss in HC qualify for that this season?
warm marlin
6 minutes uptime on the target, never casting shuriken storm
warm marlin
for now for heroic maybe dimensius or nexus
steel zinc
You want to press netherprism when you can do the most damage
warm marlin
the weaponmaster attack also doesn't cleave iirc
steel zinc
So that might be during a damage amp and big pull during a pack. Thats why you play double on use in m+
and also play double on use in raid with add fights
ripe zephyr
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
magic moth
What is up with sub? Never played it and decided to try it out. Not knowing any cooldown management, I had WAY more dps than what I have on outlaw snd assas
hollow spear
That's probably less about the classes and more about how you're playing them
tall girder
!gear
wicked joltBOT
magic moth
Well for outlaw I can say confidently say I know what I am doing, but it is still outperformed by my 0 knowledge subtelty
hollow spear
What context? M+?
spice lichen
Well for outlaw I can say confidently say I know what I am doing, but it is stil...
Reverse sandbagging outlaw spy
hollow spear
Idk, I've watched some zac streams and he was blasting
Cannot outperform bleed sin, but who can
spice lichen
Subtlety is also legitimately 5 buttons and very hard to not play optimally
I do more overall as sin by almost a million, but I can watch movies and ignore setups as sub
And blast on bosses that don’t have anything pulled on them
hollow spear
Idk, bleed doesn't require much brain power either
runic trail
Idk, bleed doesn't require much brain power either
Get bleeds out, hit shiv, big damage
obsidian merlin
Hey guys, have a question. I seen a lot subs play the the First Dance instead of master of shadows in raid. Why tho? You can only use it one Time at the beginning of the fight, while master of shadows works the hole fight.
hazy breach
Master of shadows and weaponmaster are both atrocious
If the fight is roughly 6 minutes you can in theory swap tfd to weaponmaster but it kinda doesnt matter, theyre both weak
Mostly just taking them to get to inevitability underneath em
(first dance is insane in m+ though)
obsidian merlin
But master of shadow Sound it gives me sonething 😄
Tfd in m+ sure, but in raid i dont get it
hazy breach
But master of shadow Sound it gives me sonething 😄
It doesnt though
It gives you energy
Which you are overcapping during shadowdance&symbols anyway
obsidian merlin
True… okay ill go for weaponmaster then 😂
obsidian merlin
- question. Many subs play improved shuriken Storm on a Single Target raid Boss, why that? 😄
Could take shadow Focus instead
obsidian merlin
But I will Not use shuriken Storm ones in the fight xD
hazy breach
A. Yes with new 4p you would
B. Energy doesnt do anything you are already overcapping it
Not to mention shadow focus gives such a miniscule amount of energy
obsidian merlin
Okay Ill see 🙂
With A. You mean the 4 set Bonus?
hazy breach
Yes
obsidian merlin
Trickster? Why should I use shuriken storm?
hazy breach
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
obsidian merlin
Ah okay many thanks 😋
tribal blade
Not to mention shadow focus gives such a miniscule amount of energy
what was it, like 0.1-0.2% dps or something stupid
like margin of error in sims kind of stupid
tribal blade
lol 1 cast of storm outperforming it is WILD
obsidian merlin
Woooow so i keep playing like in Season 2 😄
rocky ocean
We also have leech while stealthed 
tribal blade
i wonder which class and spec wins for the most amount of completely useless talents
btw does anyone know why ever since the patch dropped the wowhead talent calculator has been incredibly laggy for me
almost unusably laggy
uneven shard
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
steep raven
Is there any way you can have enemies on you instead of Brann during Shadow Dance?
tribal blade
Is there any way you can have enemies on you instead of Brann during Shadow Danc...
it's unlikely given how much threat reduction you have in dance
but i haven't done delves as sub in a while
proper latch
!up
wicked joltBOT
limpid sage
it's unlikely given how much threat reduction you have in dance
wait we have threat reduction on dance?
maiden frost
!loot
wicked joltBOT
hazy breach
wait we have threat reduction on dance?
Threat drop, just like fade, yes
latent finch
If sec tec comes up again while still in the first dance in cds do we instant use it or wait on second dance?
hazy breach
Use it asap
alpine wraith
send it yea
hazy breach
You just want to make sure you dance immediately after the first one so your clones dont hit inbetween
limpid sage
Threat drop, just like fade, yes
my ?? kyveza experience suddenly makes so much sense
glacial stirrup
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
cursive vapor
What is this, even when i wait for the tank to pull everything with first shadowstrike i immediately have all aggro and am almost one shot
hazy breach
The tank needs to have touched the mobs before
Theres a slight delay before your threat gets tricksed
So if you are next to the mobs before the threat has reached the tank youll get meleed
Or well, somebody on range needs to have touched the mobs
It can be you with shuriken
tribal blade
1 of the surest ways to die as sub is to shadowstrike to mobs before your tank has barely touched them
limpid sage
can always use preemptive evasion if it's a prob
not optimal but if you cba waiting xd
tribal blade
can always use preemptive evasion if it's a prob
some people do that, like casual would do that when playing sin so he didn't get insta aggro during gathers
but you're wasting a big DR cd if you do that
cursive vapor
Got it 💯
limpid sage
but you're wasting a big DR cd if you do that
given you play elusiveness
tribal blade
given you play elusiveness
given that yes
which is almost always mandatory at higher key levels
we'll see if this season there's a dungeon where you can run cheat because all the dmg is feintable
limpid sage
it was first on ?? kyveza I realized how disgusting feint is
always played cheat death until then
tribal blade
yeah feint is a strong defensive
limpid sage
but I've never pushed rio either
tribal blade
big issue for rogue is in raid when dmg isn't coded as aoe we run into problems
every key i did last season i was the lowest overall dmg taken
everyone kept talking about "sin rogue squishy"
nah not squishy if you use defensives well as rogue
limpid sage
ye it's kinda like mage in that regard
placid elk
if u die as a rogue in keys you're either a moron, you dcd, healer is a moron, healer dcd, key level too high
tribal blade
the sad thing is it's not as easy for sub to just throw feints all over the place
maybe better with tea now
but still
limpid sage
ya feels giga shit when you have to feint something, rupture is expiring and you have no combo points
tribal blade
if u die as a rogue in keys you're either a moron, you dcd, healer is a moron, h...
well you get into title range keys and everything hurts a lot 😉
fml we're in a caster tier
these comps are out of control
limpid sage
if u die as a rogue in keys you're either a moron, you dcd, healer is a moron, h...
all of the above
void hound
evoker is such a ridiculously broken class i cant believe it
hazy breach
fml we're in a caster tier
In raid sure, but bruh rogue in keys 💀
runic trail
Just wait until Aug is back
hazy breach
Just wait until Aug is back
Theyve played some aug
keen dome
I'm the damage man in keys
runic trail
Theyve played some aug
Oh god, I was shitposting pls no
tribal blade
In raid sure, but bruh rogue in keys 💀
TRUE
void hound
i rather see aug than deva 12 mil ST opener
stiff stirrup
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
runic trail
I didn't think pres was gonna be that good. I barely ever see them
hazy breach
Pres is hard to play
And has quite a bit of janky small optimizations akin to backstab in dance and storm inbetween coups
hazy breach
They have a bunch of setup globals they have to use before they can heal
tribal blade
kinda requiring a lot of thinking ahead in that regard
yeah
also listening to pres evokers lose their mind when they're trying to heal ranged in a key who are on opposite ends of the map
is pretty funny
hazy breach
Yeah
My favourite crashout was one of my guilds arcane mages crashing out over me almost doubling his funnel damage on a pull as assa
(im also doing way more aoe ofc)
tribal blade
hahaha dude sin's funnel is disgusting right now
runic trail
Its a mage though, they were gonna crash out over something anyhow
tribal blade
btw i was doing a 10 flood with guildies today
hazy breach
Unironically though, sub does that burst on whatever you want, you dont need 10 targets around the mob
tribal blade
we were ending big momma and they asked me in disc "hey prophet, how does it feel to know sin's gonna get nerfed"
because i was doing like 14mil on the boss
hazy breach
Obviously sustained damage sin claps, but the burst is real strong as sub
hazy breach
we were ending big momma and they asked me in disc "hey prophet, how does it fee...
Oh no then you'll have to swap to sub and do 13.5m
tribal blade
Oh no then you'll have to swap to sub and do 13.5m
HAHA
honestly bring it on
i'm down
i'm losing my mind over DS
it's getting old
hazy breach
Sub is really cracked too
tribal blade
yeah it felt amazing with 4pc
i'm actually quite looking forward to using it tomorrow
tame agate
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tribal blade
13 DB to run and help my guildies get it
you know it could possibly become a sub M+ season
honest dome
does anybody else have the problem that his cold blood weakaura doesnt work?
hazy breach
The reflect shield in priory has to be the spookiest mob of the season, if cloak isnt up im praying
tribal blade
if they decide to hit sin with aoe nerfs
honest dome
like basic cd tracking, but only on sub
hazy breach
!cbbug
wicked joltBOT
Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:
- Relogging.
tribal blade
The reflect shield in priory has to be the spookiest mob of the season, if cloak...
honestly sometimes when i'm scared i just run out of melee completely
hazy breach
I was in voice with a healer, i said "i dont have cloak you need to link when the shield comes up", he goes yeye will do
Then i die 0.5s after the shield and he goes "oh didnt realize you'd die that fast"
honest dome
hm doesnt work for the weakaura tho
hazy breach
hazy breach
18 stacks full burst as assa
tribal blade
they buffed her shield too which is wild
hazy breach
They nerfed the reflect but upped the shield amount iirc
tribal blade
yeah have to watch your hp before you slam an envenom
yeah the amount by quite a bit, iirc something like 50%
or some big number
btw @hazy breach are there any kind of optimizations with backstab usage in aoe
like do you want to be a bit more aggressive pressing it
or you just maintain nimble
i assume you're dancing enough where it's not an issue
hazy breach
I dont really think about the flawless uptime much since we just bp anyway
But sometimes i backstab to fish for some more stacks for an upcoming pack/pull
tribal blade
gotcha sounds about right
i REALLY wish we could track the resets
it's a horrible feeling to fish for a proc and then it doesn't happen and you've bricked your energy on a backstab
lethal gale
Have you guys been running tornado in keys? I’ve just been sticking with replicating…I assume the extra cdr you get may make it worth
hazy breach
A lot of people really dislike it, i think its fine
tribal blade
i think using it is slightly better when running vigor and tea
hazy breach
Mostly preference between replicating/veiltouched/tornado, you get to pick two of these really
hazy breach
Yerp
lethal gale
Yeah I agree nado just feels bad lol
remote eagle
is triple sub a viable comp for tazavesh hm
tribal blade
is triple sub a viable comp for tazavesh hm
honestly it won't come down to comp tbh, more so to players who know how to pilot their characters well
trail inlet
if i wanted to play sub and assa what stats work with both well
hazy breach
Not haste
tribal blade
if i wanted to play sub and assa what stats work with both well
crit+mast+vers
i think the game wants me to play sub
i've gotten basically full sub bis this week
at least the important items
so much so that i've been swapping my gems and enchants to crit because i have so much vers and mast
cursive vapor
i've gotten basically full sub bis this week
id love that
swift tinsel
so much so that i've been swapping my gems and enchants to crit because i have s...
Been having to do this too, went from ~100% mastery down to like 75-80 lol
tribal blade
Been having to do this too, went from ~100% mastery down to like 75-80 lol
i have 22k mastery currently in my sub set