so when most progress
#subtlety
vale pine
lilac stag
Sub was hot shit out of the gate because you had bis trinket from s1, crafted a dagger and got tier. Congrats all your major dps have been gotten.
the the ilvl drop off happened and everything else got buffed weeeeee
vale pine
assassiantion also got buffed
besides performing exactly the same statistically
i am not saying thats good/bad but it def. contributed in shifting balance
lilac stag
Assa was the better spec for the actual end boss, but rwf didn’t realize it
vale pine
idk
fringe palm
Assa was the better spec for the actual end boss, but rwf didn’t realize it
exile played assa?
vale pine
i would word it diffrently
the last boss was actually mugzee
so the spec which was best there was the best
lilac stag
Mugz cleave and double execute and I swore they were in jails and or doing sub things
plush roost
He played assa on mugzee
vale pine
and zee was a assassiantion fight
plush roost
And stayed outside
lilac stag
Cool. Maybe misremembering.
topaz egret
hard to quantify sub v assa on mug because the loss of parry immunity on that boss is quite significant with a bunch of dhs/warriors/windwalkers
lilac stag
I swore one of them was sub
plush roost
I remember cause he did a big shoutout to whispyr at the end of the tier to minmax ruptures on the shield bots
topaz egret
i personally think sub was better if you were playign 1 rogue.
vale pine
well the parry is now fixed ^^
lilac stag
I remember cause he did a big shoutout to whispyr at the end of the tier to minm...
Ah nice.
nova cairn
hard to quantify sub v assa on mug because the loss of parry immunity on that bo...
But parry is thematic
keen dome
well the parry is now fixed ^^
Beause they're gonna add it as a Sub specific buff option. Believe!!! 
lilac stag
sub is still ridiculous with its survivability
plush roost
Beause they're gonna add it as a Sub specific buff option. Believe!!! <:dracthyr...
Just like aoe kidney! Any day now!
keen dome
ANY day
lilac stag
if you trying to drop healers I’d imagine it can be part of the discussion.
keen dome
You can't be wrong if you predict any day.
clever delta
hard to quantify sub v assa on mug because the loss of parry immunity on that bo...
Are you ready for fatebound assa ? 😄 😄
topaz egret
haha
vestal escarp
50% uptime kingsbane
lilac stag
kush gonna get KB assa nerfed so sub dominates. 
until blizzard buffs everything else again
tribal blade
Just like aoe kidney! Any day now!
let it come back for the love of god
violet palm
No parry raid buff thematically good for rogues feels like. Call it exposing strikes or something and make it passive like monks have
topaz egret
fatebound actually feels better to play than deathstalker tbh
in ST that is
but thats not because fatebound is good, deathstalker is just ass
nova cairn
Yeah…
vestal escarp
what makes you say so
clever delta
There is not many st bosses thankfully
topaz egret
the mark mechanic is just a curse for target swapping
nova cairn
the mark mechanic is just a curse for target swapping
Also in m+
vestal escarp
but you said in St
nova cairn
You accidentally mark a totem
tribal blade
DS making you the hardest spec to swap targets is ultimate blizz bs
nova cairn
topaz egret
ah lets apply rupture, mutilate for spatter and make sure to have DN ready if i wanna target swap
xdd
vale pine
but thats not because fatebound is good, deathstalker is just ass
based
topaz egret
well yeah for ST fatebound combo point gen is just nicer to play with over the mark minigame
tribal blade
oh no i didn't prep DN properly before needing to swap to the add on 2nd boss of ML
vestal escarp
i think the dealbreaker is not having to reach to 7 every 3 finishers
tribal blade
now i have to farm marks on the boss to get it so i can swap
oh no the add is still alive
and we all die
gg
lilac stag
You could have played sub 
tribal blade
haha true
lilac stag
the world would be a better place if I could avoid m+ entirely.
void ocean
omg guys, why no heads up that we r visited by a Royalty
vale pine
get invites 100% of the time wit this trick:
||Sign up for +3 keys||
keen dome
get invites 100% of the time wit this trick:
||Sign up for +3 keys||
Oh, no, you'll 100% be declined from those. Those are the spooky range where logic isn't existant
nova cairn
Sign up as Assa spec swap to outlaw 
clever delta
I did it once and got kicked
chrome palm
The assa roofie is a classic
clever delta
How dare you play pvp spec in m+
keen dome
I did a few keys on my Prot Pal the other day and I made sure to invite a Rogue to every key I did.
I'm not inviting rogues to my keys anymore
lilac stag
i remember queueing to keys during S3 of DF
It’s easier now. “Wait you’re a rogue?” decline
tribal blade
sub was so unplayed that season to outlaw that i got rank 5 world sub
void ocean
i remember queueing to keys during S3 of DF
haha ye, i was outlaw in keys thatseason
tribal blade
haha ye, i was outlaw in keys thatseason
IT WAS
tribal blade
It’s easier now. “Wait you’re a rogue?” *decline*
honestly slightly better this season with the rise of phys comp
nova cairn
I tried to do a triple rogue key with @topaz egret but he thought I was sub and he didn’t want to play triple sub
tribal blade
you at least know you have a higher chance to get into groups with brews/bears/havoc/arms/rshams
lilac stag
honestly slightly better this season with the rise of phys comp
Until you get your friends invited to 19s and they post a 20…
I still angry for you.
void ocean
I tried to do a triple rogue key with <@189626390121807872> but he thought I was...
that would be a nice 3sub
tribal blade
Until you get your friends invited to 19s and they post a 20…
oh yeah dude haha
void ocean
bruh i dont think u can find enough sub rogues even if u invited this entire channel
keen dome
Yeah...
tribal blade
I still angry for you.
i actually did some keys with that guy later when he signed up to one of mine
i don't hold grudges that much
and i get the mentality, literally every high key runner has been guilty of it
still was a big feelsbad at the time, but just moved on
i am gonna hold a grudge against this disc friend of mine who got ultra boosted up to title
looks like he finished it off with a 19 priory from 4k players
literally only 1 key timed of every 19/20 and only done with 4k players
violet palm
Resil is crazy. Needs an iteration or complete removal imo
tribal blade
yeah i've never seen this level of boosting ever
it's insane
i was talking to another disc friend of mine, and she was saying her friends boosted 2 disc priests to title this week
lilac stag
it could be you if you played a more useful class
tribal blade
nah fuck that, rogue forever
lilac stag
prophet(tank) when 
tribal blade
it would take them dropping a nuclear bomb on rogue for me to swap off it
keen dome
nah fuck that, rogue forever
tribal blade
prophet(tank) when <:kekdog:907207037757296710>
uhh last time was on vdh a tiny bit during SL
honestly it was kinda fun
doing the gathering and stuff
keen dome
Just add a tank spec to rogue, imo. Problem solved
lilac stag
The true rogue m+ arc. Eventually give up and make tank content.
tribal blade
i wouldn't want to tank though, you realize how much of the key is in your hands when you tank
void ocean
it would take them dropping a nuclear bomb on rogue for me to swap off it
have u considered a career as a Shadow
tribal blade
every little micro decision you make affects the whole thing in a big way
keen dome
Yeah, it's great
We're all in this bus but I'm driving and I can't drive. We're also fyling off a cliff as I pull yet another entire room of trash
void ocean
it would be nice to have a Shadow that actually plays rogue, besides Whispyr 😄
tribal blade
have u considered a career as a Shadow
nah i only like playing mobile classes
so the alts i've played the most are enhance/havoc/arms
had to stop playing dh because using felrush with 200 ms is illegal
killed myself so many times on jailer with it
vale pine
@lilac stag okay, thats the new best setup so far, i am curios if it changes again with apl updates
the claw
clever delta
No vanish one
void ocean
and chat suddenly went silent
alpine wraith
dont let our eyes see that monster
void ocean
she cute af
shadow snow
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
meant assa trees
true, i think will get some changes still
alpine wraith
true, i think will get some changes still
sometimes i just look to giggle
idk if i banish them to another sheet eventually but then links to them would break
and i did so many
lilac stag
<@226395155098370049> okay, thats the new best setup so far, i am curios if it c...
Yeah that’s what I think was consensus last night in assa
alpine wraith
man i remember so long to do this one
then no one cared
but tbh there are like 2 WAs that do the same and you dont need to know the spells now
keen dome
Feint is a spin around, right.
You should have a QtE option to spin by using it at the perfect time to catch the damage and spin it onto another player
Let me perfect feint damage onto someone I don't like
fallow nimbus
First sec of feint redirects it to the tank
clever delta
Assa fatebound sims are up <:garf_sit:1334889429449314456>
Where
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
clever delta
Oh shit, outlaw meta
nova cairn
Oh shit, outlaw meta
sand flax
But if you prestack sectech you out simm warlocks
Pré sectech before the fight to have a guaranty 3 proc of unseen blade ?
swift tinsel
pre-disorienting strikes
sand flax
Yeah same as outlaw
clever delta
Yes
sand flax
Wish we could use a dummy toy inside raid
hazy breach
I mean, which prepull shenanigans?
Pretty sure its only supercharge, which isnt particularly demonic
In the past hes used it for assa too, which is more sus
hollow spear
Not too bad, so there's another like 2.5% that could be gained by predisorienting and changing the opener
hazy breach
Yep but if you wipe instantly its not feasible to get
So it kinda sucks to be forced to use sectech before you wipe
hollow spear
I need a 30 second pre wipe timer
nova cairn
Its the ER bug on outlaw back in the day
When you would farm 6 buffs pre pull
In s3
hollow spear
Why dont liquid and echo consider that huhy
They should really consider it for this upcoming race
valid yoke
Do we have a prelim bis list for next tier?
Kinda gutted I aint got a HoC people keep telling me its gonna be bis for a while into next tier
swift tinsel
its not that good
steel zinc
Get pvp trinket early on
swift tinsel
^
steel zinc
It's the best on use we have until prism or forge
keen dome
Superduper easy to grind out, too. Fully deterministic
valid yoke
oh fairs, thats a relief
cos people were telling me that hoc was gonna be bis until like, mythic lol
vale pine
Do we have a prelim bis list for next tier?
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
steel zinc
I should find the sim where I got all trinkets that you get up until hc level
valid yoke
!sheet
oooo im surprised to see that the araz forge aint on there
maybe I shouldn't be, im not a theorycrafter lol
vale pine
oooo im surprised to see that the araz forge aint on there
wdym
forge is good
but its not guaranteed bis
valid yoke
Ah gotcha
vale pine
especially with a spec like subtlety
vale pine
subtlety has a lot of "power" during 90 sec cooldowns
hazy breach
Well prism gives more
vale pine
^
valid yoke
wait does it?!
hazy breach
People see 40k and disregard the bit where it decays a lot
valid yoke
dayum
valid yoke
People see 40k and disregard the bit where it decays a lot
yea also fair
oh wait im being blind the tooltip on the sim shows at 662 ilvl
swift tinsel
isn't prism ~70k with 18 stacks now
valid yoke
not 723 lol
vale pine
tooltips are a bit finicky, all gear is on max upgrade
you can see it in the report of the sim
hollow spear
500 ilvl items? Surely we'll do 6 mio+ then!
valid yoke
🤣
also had no idea that coup would be doing most damage
i guess our 4 set is fuckin mental then lol
valid yoke
I do appreciate the clarity btw im prob asking the noobiest shit lol
hollow spear
And sectec does comparably less because of the "loss" of s2 tier set (rip bozo)
valid yoke
true
vale pine
we want flawless form stacks
and cdr on secret
so secret first is always best
(during dance)
grave shore
@vale pine brotha , why in ur APL used sec tech before sd? It should be after or I’m wrong?
vale pine
^ its 2x dance back to back
grave shore
Ah
vale pine
its hard to see on the timeline
hazy breach
Can be done this tier too
steel zinc
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ucHnoRRhfSKXwrD77ciztY
Maybe this helps with answering early trinket gear prog. PvP trinket and Ticking Sack Terror are bis at 704 (Excluding all Raid Trinkets)
PvP Trinket alone: https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kTkPCE4oJT9qhs7vQcjuBA
fleet wharf
Can we farm the pvp trinket next week or is in in 2 weeks?
keen dome
I'm not 100% sure since you need conquest. I think you can get it this coming reset?
steel zinc
Can we farm the pvp trinket next week or is in in 2 weeks?
You can get it when the season starts
PvP starts with mythic raiding
you just do daily bg stuff and then you have enough cq
keen dome
PvP starts with mythic raiding
Gooood to know. I wasn't sure.
steel zinc
I am gonna sim it now but that pvp trinket should be also very good for fatebound assa
fleet wharf
I heard warmode crate farming is the easiest way to acquire honor
steel zinc
I heard warmode crate farming is the easiest way to acquire honor
just do daily bg
carmine portal
yeah but isn't WM crate farming only possible for alliance?
steel zinc
or like me I am lazy I just ask a friend that pvps to boost me to cq cap in lke 2 hours or so 😄
carmine portal
psure every time I've done WPVP it's covered in 10000000 alliance on my realm
keen dome
Join a group and it's doable for either faciton 'cos of sharding.
Crates are the best passive non-pvp way 'cos you jus tfly about doing it. But actually doing pvp is the quickest
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
bold gate
you just do daily bg stuff and then you have enough cq
you can do chest farm
vale pine
steel zinc
you can do chest farm
yup that too
I think the PvP trinket got 2ndary buff by the nerfs from S2 trinkets
dry plank
PvP badge used as if it is 1.5 min cd?
steel zinc
PvP badge used as if it is 1.5 min cd?
ya
pretty straight forward
you play it like house of cards
and its bis for assa early on too
keen dome
Can just macro it to Blades iirc
steel zinc
Can just macro it to Blades iirc
yup
keen dome
maximum comfy
steel zinc
Might be worth even adding this to some future guides. Most see BiS list but you wont have that the first weeks. (We didnt have a Dagger drop 5 Weeks into Prog)
keen dome
You don't even need to do pvp. In warmode there are crates that drop in each zone every 30 - 45 minutes. You go to them, grab 'em, get 60 conq or w/e it is.
valid yoke
fairs
keen dome
There'll be groups up for them so you can just brain off podcast farm 'em. The trinket is 700 conquest.
steel zinc
Fastest way is to get boosted to cq cap or know any decent pvp player
mighty citrus
You don't even need to do pvp. In warmode there are crates that drop in each zon...
1 per day?
keen dome
But actually doing pvp like Mapko says is 100% faster.
keen dome
1 per day?
no, infinite farm.
mighty citrus
oh jesus thanks
steel zinc
just warmode on
keen dome
Conquest has a weekly cap, so you can only earn X amount per week, but it starts above 700 so you can grind the trinket out day 1 asap if you want, it's super chill
tepid trellis
im getting prism from hc week 1
keen dome
The other way is what Mapko said, just getting weekly pvp quests and doing them. Super easy too.
keen dome
im getting prism from hc week 1
steel zinc
im getting prism from hc week 1
How many splits ur doing? You know FDK gets it first right? 😄
It has to drop u know
keen dome
I'm getting boots on my first DH kill on heroic
tepid trellis
he wont get it before me
steel zinc
people always assume it dropps
tepid trellis
it will drop
keen dome
Hell yeah
steel zinc
ok makes sense totally 
tepid trellis
never have a trinket i needed from raid not dropped week 1
steel zinc
never have a trinket i needed from raid not dropped week 1
cool our first hoc dropped in like the 3rd week and we did 2 splits.
can you tell me how to get more luck?
Like whole guild pls
steel zinc
Ahhh sure 😄
tepid trellis
it is what it is
steel zinc
true
keen dome
put more points into luck
keen dome
I dropped all mine from charisma and intelligence and wisdom, and put them all into luck.
lilac stag
put more points into luck
Fatebound it is.
clever delta
im getting prism from hc week 1
same
steel zinc
equip the bandit ring
see I have never seen a high versa ring drop in main raid
clever delta
just loot it from vault
clever delta
same
steel zinc
Looting vaults is more German style
clever delta
i did not loot shit from raid
steel zinc
even dagger because they dont drop
holy 2 months
we had 5 weeks
And I got it and other Rogue didnt see it until farm
steel zinc
I got my Heroic House of Cards in like week 6
right before the end of prog
I played freaking lockenstock with transmitter
steel zinc
yeah its because tbf as sub you didnt need hoc
tepid trellis
think we had 6 hoc drops by week 3
clever delta
what a gigachad guild
steel zinc
sub you didnt need hoc during prog
like some had 100k upgrade and sub like 15k from mythic transmitter to hoc transmitter
But the PvP trinket will be worse if they actually fix the lilly trinket from eco dome and its not utter dogshit
tepid trellis
just give them a sim where transmitter isnt done perfectly 
solemn creek
Didnt get hoc till mythic dinar
steel zinc
just give them a sim where transmitter isnt done perfectly <:Cheesin:10040943334...
But I played it perfect 
Like I showed them a clip of the transmitter orb flying off lockenstock plattform
When I died I said gotta get my dmg buff
😄
vale pine
think we had 6 hoc drops by week 3
nice, reminds me of transmitter
vale pine
which nobody in my raid wanted week 1 and 2
steel zinc
is it a sub tier or an outlaw tier? 😄
if you raid you 9/10 times play sub or sin. Since your commiting with your first craft.
vale pine
and then suddenly everyone did
lilac stag
just give them a sim where transmitter isnt done perfectly <:Cheesin:10040943334...
Just be on loot council and call out the other specs BS.
vale pine
bold gate
seems like a sub tier then
tepid trellis
if you raid you 9/10 times play sub or sin. Since your commiting with your first...
10/10
hazy breach
and then suddenly everyone did
Prism is gonna be the same i feel
steel zinc
Kurog was the only time outlaw was bis
raw wadi
like some had 100k upgrade and sub like 15k from mythic transmitter to hoc trans...
Imagine playing transmitter on lockenstock... Was a real pleasure to do
lilac stag
get it before others are realizing they’re holding lust on the important bosses
hazy breach
The last fights are gonna be long and you wont bl on pull most likely
steel zinc
Imagine playing transmitter on lockenstock... Was a real pleasure to do
It did and worked. 😄
vale pine
Prism is gonna be the same i feel
haha, so i need to grap it first 2 weeks
bold gate
tbf yeah. Last time outlaw was meta it was named combat
i was 14 back then
and im 80 now
raw wadi
haha, so i need to grap it first 2 weeks
Muh.
shy scarab
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
sand flax
@steel zinc I am still trying to figure out the best way to know when hold unseen blade proc
hazy breach
Wdym
steel zinc
<@312625131686068234> I am still trying to figure out the best way to know when ...
wdym? You dont hold them they just procc with a chance and you get 2 stacks after sectech
You mean holding coup?
sand flax
You mean holding coup?
Holding coup de grâce, and you mentioned earlier that there’s some case you shuriken blade during dance
swift tinsel
that's next season
steel zinc
Holding coup de grâce, and you mentioned earlier that there’s some case you shur...
next season
in blades
with tier
hazy breach
Generally youd hold onto coup if your Flagellation has 15-20s or less left
steel zinc
This you do now and next tier. And Storming after coup you do, when blades it active, since then you proc the 4p of S3
sand flax
I guess that double coup de grace apply twice the 5 stacks of flawless form, right ?
hazy breach
Yes, 5 per
sand flax
Then, our sectech cold blood should follow, because of the big amount of stacks + flag + dance macabre
hollow spear
Does fdk really gain more from prism than us compared to the next best trinket option?
Thought we had more of our budget in the 90s window
sand flax
This you do now and next tier. And Storming after coup you do, when blades it ac...
Why shuriken storm and not shadow strike ?
tepid trellis
Then, our sectech cold blood should follow, because of the big amount of stacks ...
nah
same rules for sectech as now
swift tinsel
Why shuriken storm and not shadow strike ?
strike procs UB
sand flax
Ok I get it finally, because we can’t build another coup de grace between both coup de grâce
swift tinsel
yep, those stacks get wasted so we try to avoid proccing them between
would have been nice if they implemented the 4pc a bit differently but 
lilac stag
I think at this point it just being implemented is a win. fuck the bar is so low.
lilac stag
Right after havoc changes are done.
ancient heron
LF a WA for shadow tec, I think it was just a number and when refund happens chomp sound plays.
lilac stag
It’s actually amusing looking at all of the rogue and havoc changes which seemingly have the same “team” working on them. Then you look at everyone else. Did our team go out to get milk and just say nah fam, I can’t?
wicked joltBOT
spice matrix
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
fallow nimbus
It’s actually amusing looking at all of the rogue and havoc changes which seemin...
They got drafted into other teams and do rogue/dh on the side when they have spare time, which they don't have 
Legit the only explanation we have left with all the bugs and wierd stuff we have
fallow nimbus
We don't even get any qol and just ask why ??? with every first ptr notes we get
Why is ub still hidden?
placid elk
i got some dinars left, season is over but what should i get that can help a bit first week?
house of cards or jastor?
brisk onyx
idk, but maybe jastor i think
lilac stag
i got some dinars left, season is over but what should i get that can help a bit...
If you don’t have HoC likely that. Both if you can.
placid elk
guess i'll farm for both, maybe HOC will carry for a while
placid elk
lilac stag
we had really bad trinkets this tier. It’s just the least bad for sub
Jastors maybe has a little more longevity
at least the badge tinket is easy to farm
placid elk
i'll farm some lfr and get both just in case
lilac stag
it will have more value for assa, but at this point what else are you spending on?
clever delta
some cool moggs :D:D
lilac stag
basically have the two dagger specs prepped
valid yoke
Hey guys got a WA question, I know theres like 6 packs to choose from, i've been using luxthos but it doesnt track my form stacks, does anyone have any recommendations for a change up on which one to use?
clever delta
what about outlaw, the best simming rogue spec sir?
lilac stag
Hey guys got a WA question, I know theres like 6 packs to choose from, i've been...
!wa
wicked joltBOT
lilac stag
Hey guys got a WA question, I know theres like 6 packs to choose from, i've been...
Legit whichever you find best for you. UI kinda personal.
clever delta
Hey guys got a WA question, I know theres like 6 packs to choose from, i've been...
i use to use luxthos pack years ago and i liked it, you can message him and he will add it too
valid yoke
fairs, i also need one that isn't super draining cos frames omegalul
lilac stag
what about outlaw, the best simming rogue spec sir?
Their sim APL is too good. Unattainable numbers.
lilac stag
fairs, i also need one that isn't super draining cos frames omegalul
Try LE. Coding is well done.
clever delta
what if im better than robot
lilac stag
what if im better than robot
Point and laugh at Solo
clever delta
i was actually trying out LE and even tho it look cool and have lot of things baked in, it was little bit too complicated for me 😄
valid yoke
Try LE. Coding is well done.
thanks
clever delta
im fine with "my" ui
lilac stag
but we’re helping keys here!
lilac stag
And you are who we are helping
valid yoke
Thanks ❤️
clever delta
im not helping, speak for yourself sir
lilac stag
clever delta
how much
lilac stag
lack of BP buff have @clever delta angry
clever delta
we are talkin
left ledge
11% 5 times
clever delta
wow
lilac stag
I maybe projecting.
clever delta
thats seems like correct number
left ledge
I did the math, it is
clever delta
is it enough to not press coup tho?
left ledge
I majored in “Balancing Subtlety Rogue in World of Warcraft”
lilac stag
My BP buff schedule is 5x 13.8%
left ledge
is it enough to not press coup tho?
We need the cdr still
lilac stag
“Nice”
clever delta
🙁
left ledge
Pressing evis in 2025 is crazy
clever delta
yeah fuck that
left ledge
Let us press black powder
clever delta
i was pressing evis in 2007 time to move on
left ledge
Actually holy 
clever delta
(made up number)
left ledge
Just bake evis into black powder
clever delta
yes
guys i will confess, actually playing sin and not caring about mark is relaxing
but you need sound effects on, so you can hear the coin flips
lilac stag
guys i will confess, actually playing sin and not caring about mark is relaxing
Fatebound is ultimate chill
brittle plinth
Sub fate bound?!
Oh no that's assassination?! Get back to your trash heap channel you heretics
lilac stag
from a bug perspective, this is the trash heap channel
steel zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
steel zinc
Most likely they will rework rogue hero talents
simple dragon
how's sub looking in M+? is it far away from Assa?
vale pine
probably better in dungeons you have a lot of pure st
steel zinc
how's sub looking in M+? is it far away from Assa?
Like dawnbreaker is a sub dungeon
vale pine
i don't know if we compete on aoe still
dry plank
but you need sound effects on, so you can hear the coin flips
Why?
steel zinc
Like as sin you peak hall's first pull 45 mill sub Like 35
vale pine
i mean its just a consequence of tuning
secret has a too low target cap (seems unintentional)
steel zinc
Still 5 not 8 right?
vale pine
yep
nimble is worse than assassiantions equivalent
and we don't have tick/rot damage
so aoe otuside of cooldowns is meh
it is a bit of a balancing nightmare for blizz
and them completely ignoring m+ for tuning does not help
simple dragon
🙁
simple dragon
it feels weird that all rogue specs are flawed in some way
vale pine
wdym
simple dragon
sub atm looks pretty good for ST and raid content and not so good in M+
they don't wanna buff it to not improve raid
Assa looks like the opposite
and Outlaw has his own problems
vale pine
what makes you think assassiantion is bad in raiding
simple dragon
flatline dmg profile plus must always be doing dmg or it sucks
simple dragon
ST looked bad for now
clever delta
sub doing more than fine in m+ on S3
simple dragon
maybe with the buffs it got better
simple dragon
pure ST? yes
vale pine
if you add more targets
which i would argue
you can most of the time
its not bad
the weakness vanishes suddenly
simple dragon
i haven't seen which Mythic rotation we have in S3
but you can't always funnel in bosses
vale pine
like
we saw assassiantion palyed in the great push
so i don't think the lack of st did mattter much
season 3 you basically suffer from fatebound being the stronger hero talent
so you can't ignore it anymore
it did sim already higher before but even then it was ignored
the main reason is the bad target scaling for the hero talent
so you can't bring the single target power to dungeons
simple dragon
they are saying Fatebound is a no go if multi target is involved
vale pine
yep
because of the inverse target scaling
kinda
but this is essentially the question
does funnel still keep up
to correct the diffrence between to other specs/classes
i can't say
i think its better to ask in the #assassination channel^^
odd knoll
wicked joltBOT
wary plover
is Lily trinket from Ecodome bad?
vale pine
its good
think of it like this
you want one active trinket to make your big cooldowns do more damage
and there are only 3 or 4 options for that
2 are from raid, so in limited supply
and then there is one from m+
lilly
and potentially the pvp trinket/hoc if you got a mythic one (even tho these are not great long)
the 2nd trinket slot is usually a passive trinket option
there is similar a certain amount of choice, but there are more good m+ options
wary plover
taking prism and Lily as same ILevel, how much difference there is? 0.x?
steel zinc
is Lily trinket from Ecodome bad?
It's worse then pvp trinket and not well tuned
steel zinc
taking prism and Lily as same ILevel, how much difference there is? 0.x?
Like 5%
wary plover
oh
vale pine
think it was less than that
but its basically the diffrence between lilly and the next best option
is still big
so its a good starting point
2% diffrence
between bis and lilly
lilac stag
Max lily 723 was prenerf only 2% better then 684 hoc
i was surprised to hear whispyr say need it for assa. 
grand wyvern
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
clever delta
there will be some more tunnings
including items
but i found funnny, that hoc wasnt that much better than transmitter, and the new trinket (lily) isnt much better than hoc
heh
lilac stag
as dumb as transmitter was to play, at least it was strong
limber dirge
does shuriken storm still consume both stacks of the rotten or has that been fixed?
limber dirge
will do
tight sparrow
does anybody know if physical trinkets interrect with monk buff or na ?
hollow spear
<https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jMdUtkm1bLv4KAbesUfhNB>
top gear simming at 5.146 while your sheet sims at 5.288
just want to make sure that the 2.3% are the actual difference or if something is krangled
lilac stag
Missing a buff?
hollow spear
PI? 😮
vale pine
top gear simming at 5.146 while your sheet sims at 5.288
raid_events+=/buff,buff_name=supercharge_1,first=0,cooldown=999999
raid_events+=/buff,buff_name=supercharge_2,first=0,cooldown=999999
raid_events+=/buff,buff_name=disorienting_strikes,first=0,cooldown=999999```sims on the sheet use both pre pull cheeses
hollow spear
oh, I didn't see the disorienting
steel zinc
prepull cheese is insane
lilac stag
yeah I don’t think we should be simming disorienting
steel zinc
its like 200k or what
hollow spear
it doesn't use the changed opener tho 😛
steel zinc
it doesn't use the changed opener tho 😛
thats another 0.6%
warm marlin
writing changed opener in is a bit wack though
you need conditionals for vanish and such specifically for disorienting strikes being active
lilac stag
Then do neither.
vale pine
oh, I didn't see the disorienting
you can add it in expert mode header
warm marlin
i personally don't think predisorient should be in the official sim because it's not guaranteed and the vast majority are not going to do it (im sure some in this channel still don't know about it)
im sure warlocks arent putting that sort of thing in
lilac stag
Inflated numbers for no reason
warm marlin
if its just on the fuu sheet its fine but im pretty sure that's the one that gets submitted to simulationcraft
swift tinsel
I'd personally rather see a disorient-less sheet but then note the % increase for doing it
warm marlin
i perma abuse it and sometimes a wipe just happens instantly or whatever you cannot always have it ready for every pull
lilac stag
add it to the bug sheet with the percent increase
warm marlin
gallywix cuff bomb explodes
lilac stag
Or do an outlaw !prepull
young mural
but i found funnny, that hoc wasnt that much better than transmitter, and the ne...
yhea they've been dropping the ball on trinket tuning, especially these 1min 30s ones
astral axle
ive not followed the plot closely for prepull madness. is the gist to use symbols and sec tech at some point and let em recharge before the boss pull?
lilac stag
You keep your Disorienting by using Sectech before wipe
So you can’t do it if there’s zero combat events before pull
warm marlin
Sectec on trash or before raid wipes -> don’t press backstab/ss until next pull -> once trash dead or rezzed, presymbols
clever delta
yeah but than on wipe you dont have sectech ready so you press cloak and evasion and making wipe longer looking like pepega just to have shit like this ready
but having it in sims is just wrong
reef elm
astral axle
actually heinous
steel zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
i personally don't think predisorient should be in the official sim because it's...
probably right, i can re-run it without
supercharger cheese makes more sense
as its very easy to do
moment
steel zinc
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8noUvNV3KW12u3j92cz7Yf
vs
No prepull stuff
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qvEcaT51YtX966r8yGHNNV
its ~140k
tender frost
thats no supercharger prepull either?
vale pine
alright, its updated
steel zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tender frost
so 70k ish from pre disorienting
steel zinc
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fYNcTqsJkG9GzEZfkVTJcT
DisStrike is ~70k
ya
warm marlin
probably right, i can re-run it without
Ty sir
clever delta
its still more than racial bonus 😄
vale pine
i did not change the opener, no
steel zinc
ok just checked
clever delta
what is the new opener
steel zinc
but might be worth another couple 0.1%
if you have disorienting up you evis and rupture before cds
warm marlin
what is the new opener
you just do old vanish opener to fully consume all the predisorient UBs
steel zinc
so strike, flag, rupture, vanish, strike, evis and then cds
the bot deleted this opener
for w/e reason
must be to good then 
astral axle
oh another noob question, sometimes when i vanish i get broken out before i can even strike, what causes that?
steel zinc
oh another noob question, sometimes when i vanish i get broken out before i can ...
the changes in stances
stealth is a stance like def stance for warrior
astral axle
i see, so is there a work around
astral axle
Got it, thank you
tender frost
making sure you sectec before wipe on prog is not gonna be worth the mental
warm marlin
eh its not that bad + its mental gain by avoiding coup opener rng
warm marlin
dont think so but not sure
steel zinc
making sure you sectec before wipe on prog is not gonna be worth the mental
tbf its not that bad
warm marlin
predisorient + vanish opener does allow you to hit it on live already though
so increases the chances a lot
warm marlin
no send it
clever delta
nice
random sparrow
will the first dance bug with vanish still be a thing in new patch
tender frost
pretty sure as long as you chain dance immediately even if its last global of first dance it gets buffed by the next one kinda like if you sb after sectec in opener
tepid trellis
its dynamic so as long as the dance buff is up
it will get the dmg buff from dance
clever delta
nice nice
im pretty sure i read somewhere before to hold for second dance
but idk maybe im making it up
tepid trellis
dont think any guide had it specifically written with TFD and sectech
that you can just insta send it
clever delta
i mean reading it here
tepid trellis
no idea, i also dont think it actually really matters
steel zinc
It also depends on proccs imo. If dance is only up less then 1 sec I just wait for my next dance charge
that can happen
lilac stag
its still more than racial bonus 😄
Maghar is quite big compared to stuff like furry and undead.
clever delta
portal was nice on mugzee
lilac stag
and transmog discount
clever delta
human is like 0.5 behind
random sparrow
got to go dragon for the glide spam in main city
warm marlin
maghar for 3min prismmaxxing on dmg amp fights
lilac stag
@tepid trellis are you going to be able to stream with new guild?
tepid trellis
yes
clever delta
what was the guild you joined?
lilac stag
Private loggers anonymous.
hazy breach
maghar for 3min prismmaxxing on dmg amp fights
Prismmaxxing 
clever delta
i saw kush sending natty cds withnout prism just to have it fully stacked for next usage 😄
that was some burst
hazy breach
Ye you can do that now
warm marlin
the real maghar gain will be week 37 fractilius farm when its a 2m30s fight that you sync cds with forge
gotta think ahead
hazy breach
By then ill be dwarf
clever delta
you are orc
warm marlin
ick
hazy breach
M+ brainrot too stronk, and for some reason theres tons of dispels this season
So its once again time to become lil bro
clever delta
i was thinking about going dwarf too
lilac stag
I’ll miss avoiding m+
clever delta
but are there any racial dispells in raid?
warm marlin
my alt rogue is dwarf for keys so i can remain a maghar in raid
steel jolt
gear looks like shit on dwarf 
silent steeple
Is this the most difficult rogue spec?
clever delta
depends who you ask
loud salmon
is sub finally the raid spec? 😄
silent steeple
depends who you ask
Does subtlety's rotation suffer the most from small mistakes?
steel zinc
Does subtlety's rotation suffer the most from small mistakes?
in cds yes
if you screw up a cd set its joever
lilac stag
in cds yes
Loaded answer since we don’t do any dmg out of cds
steel zinc
Loaded answer since we don’t do any dmg out of cds
But its true
lilac stag
I wonder if folks that say outlaw is harder, if it is actually less forgiving or if folks just struggle with the apm
to each their own. watches guildies struggle to play assa on an alt
hazy breach
Sub is the least forgiving for sure, but theres other difficulty besides things being punitive
steel zinc
Outlaw you just need to be in the "flow" sub is more about planing and executing that plan.
Outlaw your more in moment to moment gameplay. Sub your always thinking ahead
lilac stag
Sub feels like trying to recover from a mistake is the real struggle
warm marlin
you will lose a lot of damage screwing up in big cds as sub, outlaw you will lose damage for every mistake you ever make and they will snowball together
steel zinc
imo if you screw up a cd window like for example you press flag and ptr lag says nah you didnt and your omega screwed and do half the dps
steel zinc
you will lose a lot of damage screwing up in big cds as sub, outlaw you will los...
If you high roll you can recover imo
warm marlin
but each individual error on outlaw matters a lot less than screwing up sub cds
steel zinc
but sub also is very chill outside of your cds
you are lit a paid actor during these phases
tank or healer do more dps
swift tinsel
I usually switch to mechanics mode in between when it doesn’t scuff my cdr
steel zinc
If I am cds cloak is a dmg amp cd 
swift tinsel
Lol based and true
silent steeple
I wonder if folks that say outlaw is harder, if it is actually less forgiving or...
I can keep up with whatever APM, but accidentally pressing the wrong key while trying to ram my rotation down spellqueue's tiny window is what messes me up all the time. Sounds like maybe this is better than outlaw for that
steel zinc
I can keep up with whatever APM, but accidentally pressing the wrong key while t...
Sub is the Dizi of DPS
You Ramp
silent steeple
I tried looking that up and all I saw was turkish TV shows
lilac stag
The 1 sec gcd is basically don’t fuck up 8 sec of dance spells.
button smashing is fun
steel zinc
This is sub.
The monk is the tank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vURj5PzU5-A this is imo the best sub guide
and if you do 11.1 rotation correctly your 99% already good for 11.2
some minimal things change
onyx dawn
So we can rip the 11.1 tree on PTR and it's gucci?
I normally play Sin, never really played Sub for a long time and wanted to mess around with it on ptr
loud salmon
Outlaw you just need to be in the "flow" sub is more about planing and executing...
how fast paced is sub compered to others
steel zinc
on ptr you play different talents because of bug fixes and tier but you play the same nearly
hazy breach
Fast in cds, glacially slow outside
steel zinc
In m+ there are different builds
loud salmon
how is sin/sub vs fury warr? anyone know?
steel zinc
fury warrior is more outlaw gameplay imo
lucid jackal
Sin is closer to arms
loud salmon
💀
lucid jackal
If you like fury you probably would best be fit for outlaw
loud salmon
good to know ty
steel zinc
you can shift cds like no other class
lilac stag
I like timing things tbh
If you enjoy arms you’ll likely enjoy sub
steel zinc
How is tauren for sub/sin?
play w7e
dreamy axle
thank gosh sub will do more damage then tanks
winged kernel
so we sub rogues for raid and ass rogues for m+ or what
warm marlin
Void Elf because it was op during prog
Maghar because my priests were good little kittens that would grip me out of gaols
sullen hare
I play worgen because why not
steel zinc
so we sub rogues for raid and ass rogues for m+ or what
Yeah but you can play both and I argue you play sub in dawnbreaker and other dungeons where you cant get most bosses funnel that assa needs
hazy breach
steel zinc
If we get nerfed it makes 0 sense and ill probably touch sub only during farm then.
stoic reef
guys
silent steeple
Surely Blizzard would want rogue to be good before they nerf it? (cries in aug tier set nerf)
stoic reef
how strong is mag har racial compared to other races
steel zinc
I highly doubt we get nerfed that would make 0 sense and an admission of just poorly tuned rogue that was a couple of days in the gutter.
left ledge
Sub is getting buffs
My insider at Blizz let me know they’re cooking up a batch of bp buffs
keen dome
They're gonna buff it for me, personally
hazy breach
how strong is mag har racial compared to other races
Not that much stronger
steel zinc
how strong is mag har racial compared to other races
playing your rotation correctly is way more important. Look at top logs and see lots play different races
swift tinsel
Pretty sure it’s on sale atm 
stoic reef
yeah but its still 20 bucks
keen dome
You could spend $20 on that OR buy the kitty cat mount that goes meow when you summon it
I think I know which is going to have more impact on your DPS
steel jolt
stoic reef
the cat for sure
but Am sure
Buying some meat
will impact my dps more
Me eats meat me happy
maiden oar
i bought the race change to go back to dwarf now that i dont have to be velf anymore
hazy breach
You could spend $20 on that *OR* buy the kitty cat mount that goes meow when you...
Instructions unclear, i bought a burger and fries instead
maiden oar
but thats just because i think dwarves are funny short guys and i like them
keen dome
Instructions unclear, i bought a burger and fries instead
What kind of burger.
stoic reef
am currently void elf
thats already nice engough
its just that idk
the female looks like a s1ut
and the male looks gae
hazy breach
What kind of burger.
Mostly natty cheeseburger except it had chili mayo
maiden oar
just wear a funny outfit and it doesnt matter what ur guy looks like
keen dome
Hell yeah, that sounds like a good burger
stoic reef
Mostly natty cheeseburger except it had chili mayo
that sure is a good investment
hoary coyote
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
mighty citrus
following the sims, what is now expected most rogues will be playing in progression?
vale pine
assasisantion/subtlety
mighty citrus
😄
vale pine
depending on fight
mighty citrus
gearing both directly may be hard
vale pine
Mostly natty cheeseburger except it had chili mayo
how hot was the chiili mayo?
steel jolt
chili mayo sounds good
warm marlin
gearing both directly may be hard
you just gear sub and switch specs to assa when it so pleases you, maybe change a ring or two
frank path
yeah, prob gonna be sub most fights, a lot of dmg amps in the raid
vernal junco
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
void hound
This is sub.
tanovmonk pog
winged kernel
for s3 are we playing deathstalker or trickster?
winged kernel
o
void hound
cope, buzz word, cope
checks out
sullen hare
“Damage Amps”, “Friction” and “Buff BP” - your top 3 phrases in <#31692389850152...
To be fair it could use another 15 or 20%
lilac stag
69% actually
north schooner
rename eviscerate to Black Powd, and sectec to Black Powdest
lilac stag
make secret cap on 8
12
vale pine
^ this could be us in aoe
could add a talent which spawns one additional clone on the main target for each target hit
or sth
giving us funnel back
winged kernel
messing aorund with sub right now, and it honestly dont seem too bad
winged kernel
true
winged kernel
and that still continues with s3 war within
?
cause ass rogue looks disgusting for m+ lol
vale pine
well blizz nerfed CT
because their aoe was rly strong in s2
so damage shifted towards evis
env*
lilac stag
and then buffed everything else
vale pine
ye
winged kernel
ic
vale pine
but its still unclear how strong it is
because:
- there might be apl updates missing
- Their dominant hero talent is single target focused, so its unclear how competitive the m+ setup is with the 2nd hero talent
frank path
do you know sub or fatebound will have better dmg amp in execute?
if its 100% dmg amp
vale pine
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
brittle plinth
messing aorund with sub right now, and it honestly dont seem too bad
It's not worth it when you can do much more DMG with half the brain cells with sin
vale pine
at least for now, again apl might change things
tier set atm also seems to be playable but not mandatory
making 2p/4p quite dynamic
the problem rly is the bad scaling once you have more targets
chrome palm
whispyr said zoldyck doesnt buff fatebound tails last night
which might mean its lower execute
vale pine
hmm
stable plume
I saw the APLs have been updated for 11.2, I’m assuming there’s still more fine tuning to come right?
winged kernel
spreadsheet shows outlaw still better single target for sims?
chrome palm
perhaps depending on fight length, holding 1 usage of prism could result in a big execute
winged kernel
damn pirate
vale pine
whispyr iirc still works on some updates
i did look into aoe for sub, but i need to look again if the simc implementation is correct
as it seems like you would currently move to AoE on ~4 targets
(use BP)
frank path
it doesnt look like theres aoe on dimensius so wondering if fatebound is possible
vale pine
fatebound is def. a good choice if there is mostly single target
frank path
then you add on the dmg amp is in p3
vale pine
but i would rather ask in #assassination
lilac stag
do you know sub or fatebound will have better dmg amp in execute?
Fatebound likely, unless adds show up. Even before apl optimizations its was hitting 14-15 milly
hazy breach
So does sub though
bright sundial
Sry doing some stuff didn't see the msg does out target count get change with sb and 5% buff or nah
maiden oar
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=3 Thistle Tea, null```does this work to prevent accidental double tea in m+ with s3 build
i assume yes (just copied the shiv version) but wanna make sure i didnt mess it up somehow or miss some shadow dance interaction that makes this bad
lilac stag
and I’m pretty sure the execute didn’t have lust, which you would
hollow spear
Being able to move your dances to good timers is pretty high value and fatebound doesn't bring the same level of flexibility
vale pine
Ours is optimized. Fatebound is not, including prism.
we will see
hollow spear
Patchwerk fights are good for fatebound, for anything else I think sub is the play
lilac stag
we will see
100%. Our burst is our burst. Mix in execute and lust and I think it’s going to be a tuff one to beat.
lucid jackal
I think the whole, having shit cleave in a fairly cleave heavy raid is a big deal
astral axle
if you are nae hof whae geez a shite just play w/e and vibe 
bleak night
lilac stag
tbd how heavy the cleave is.
and how quickly it gets deleted
especially for the non top 50
steel zinc
The PvP trinket is omega busted seen sims for 6 specs and its bis
bleak night
