subtlety

[lilac stag]

“Or” literally is two conditions.

[fallow nimbus]

I never have to perform at or even play lockenstock again

[molten citrus]

I can see the confusion

“Or” being 2 separate conditions

While “and” would be 2 combined conditions

[bleak night]

yeah that should say and (not quite actually)

[fallow nimbus]

An "in aoe:" would be enough because the "or" makes sense and is needed

[bleak night]

that would work better yeah

[fallow nimbus]

Unlucky streaks of no flawless are possible

If storm could proc hidden blades man

Here are 5 targets, happy backstabbing

[lilac stag]

You’re on the AOE portion of the guide.

stop overcomplicating this.

[bleak night]

ok well i didnt know the guy was reading the aoe section and asking about st from it

lol

[lilac stag]

Selective editing? Idk I asked for link to see if there’s was truely something wrong. Got a cropped screen shot lacking critical information.

[void ocean]

What about "xor" 🤣

[lilac stag]

What about just play :

[void ocean]

Ofc

Went as sub for a key after a while, got smoked by 650 demo

[lilac stag]

when they diehards subs are telling you to play there’s a really good fning reason

[bleak night]

[molten citrus]

[lilac stag]

I know you’re playing.

[keen dome]

Bleed is fun, but so is Sub.

[lilac stag]

you’re playing a 3 dps class. If you’re not doing dps as a spec what are you actually doing besides inting keys for 4 other people?

[molten citrus]

i started the season playing sub

[lilac stag]

so did I.

[molten citrus]

but it just isn't worth which is unfortunate

[lilac stag]

Played it last night on locken out of boredom. Thankfully ST doesn’t matter much between the two specs

[keen dome]

I mean I don't play at a level where it matters and I'm consistently top damage so I'm completely vlaid to play Sub.

If I was pushing 15 or 16's, sure.

[lilac stag]

I’m not says you’re wrong, but for many people hitting 12-13 range is big jump and it falls off

especially without skyfury

[keen dome]

Ultimately, I think it's a decision the person has to make themselves rather than it being some objective thing. Their context, their situation. What they're playing and who with.

Because the line of thinking ultimately boils down to why even play Rogue

[lilac stag]

You’re playing a class

Some are just hung up on playing 1 specific spec

[keen dome]

Or they might have more fun with one spec than another?

It's not that complex.

[lilac stag]

and when a mid assa rogue can outpace a good sub rogue why am I even considering taking the sub rogue?

welcome to tuning

[keen dome]

And when <other class> can outpace a good Assa rogue, why am I even considering taking a Rogue at all?

[lilac stag]

and not inting keys is the main goal of anyone running their pug key in LFG

[leaden prairie]

I play outlaw in keys

idm inting

[lilac stag]

You really have no idea how strong assa is eh?

[keen dome]

Is Ass the be-all-end-all meta pick?

[lilac stag]

How many dps specs are there? Its output is top 5?

[leaden prairie]

ye easely

[crystal bone]

yes

[lucid jackal]

Well I play the video game to have fun so I just play whatever is fun :)

[leaden prairie]

assa suffers from being a rogue tho

[lilac stag]

All three are fun, remember?

[leaden prairie]

and people dont really trust rogues

[lucid jackal]

Yep!

[keen dome]

Well if it's only top 5 and there are 3 DPS spots in a group then it isn't getting taken if we follow this line of reasoning (which isn't really accurate in reality anyway)

[lilac stag]

@keen dome ^

[keen dome]

That doesn't help your argument, though lol

[lilac stag]

sure it does. More on it it’s likely breaking into top 3. Players don’t want to play the class and also don’t see many.

[leaden prairie]

i think its more so that they dont see man y

likely cause top players dont bother with rogue

its kinda a one trick class nowadays

[lilac stag]

assa aoe is ridiculously good. Find a tank to pull any adds to a boss and its boss dmg is fantastic. Legit just mid on pure ST which there isn’t a lot of

[leaden prairie]

"mid"

[keen dome]

My point is you should play the spec you enjoy and just have fun 'cos ultimately, if you really want to push and do well and meta chase, you'll want to play something other than rogue. And if you are really good at the spec you'll play well and do it anyway.

[leaden prairie]

zeross is doing 1.9 st anyway

i dont think its that mid

thats outlaw or sub st

[lilac stag]

it’s cope that ST is bad

It’s just not Arcane

[lucid jackal]

Depends on the build Ur playing

[bleak night]

on normal builds the st is definitely not great

not tank damage like people like to say but not great

[lucid jackal]

Bleed build is good in like, keys up to 15 or smthing

Then u just play kb and do good st for super push keys

[lilac stag]

and that way higher than most are pugging in this discord

[bleak night]

its a lot more than just playing kb that they change

normal kb build isnt more st than normal bleed build

[lilac stag]

have to see what changes another 10 ilvl or whatever we’re going to turbo does

[keen dome]

Ye, I'm curious what influence that'll have

[crystal bone]

+1 key level easily in power

[bleak night]

easily

[crystal bone]

and with helm enchant

[keen dome]

I imagine it'll make pugging 12 / 13 / 14's relatively chill too

[crystal bone]

im curious if ilvl 686 or w/e rings will beat circlet finally

tired of it

[keen dome]

I have decided they will.

[crystal bone]

first thing i do on a new alt is go to a season 1 island

[keen dome]

And no knowledge or facts on this planet will convince me otherwise. The ring goes in the bin.

I'm actually just gonna replace it with a heroic Jastors when I get one 'cos it sims like, close enough (something like 10k dps which I just don't care about)

[crystal bone]

is it only mythic track that is turbo'd or is it all tracks?

[molten citrus]

hero and myth right

[hazy breach]

Hc and mythic

[crystal bone]

nice

[keen dome]

Yeah, +2 steps to each

So 671? and 685? 4?

[crystal bone]

id guess 678 to 682 then 682 to 685

but who knows

[bleak night]

at least hero track is finally useful over champ track

[keen dome]

Yeah..

[molten citrus]

684

afaik

[crystal bone]

oh yea they said +6 ilvls

[molten citrus]

crafted will be 681

with the 30 crest item added

[sly shore]

2x atrophic no stack now at all, right

at least from what I can see from log data

[lilac stag]

you found logs with 2 rogues?

We’re so back!

[sly shore]

first is 2x, second is 1x

[random hare]

@leaden prairie how did we check atrophic poisons again

Didnt we go through dungeon logs instead

[leaden prairie]

some people went into a fyrakk with 2 rogues

and applied atro

one after the other

[random hare]

Nah that one we know cuz they had 5 rogues

[leaden prairie]

to see the damage properly decreasing twice

[random hare]

It was easy to see

[leaden prairie]

i mean atro stacks from the logs i have seen

just in absord tab

but idk

maybe it could be a log report bug thing

[leaden prairie]

unlikely tho

[random hare]

4 times

As u can see

[leaden prairie]

yeye

[random hare]

Idk is this enough data

Feels like the boss’s dmg is just rng anyway from that log

[sly shore]

It's doing identical damage before mitigation

First hit big

Rest of hits slightly less big

Always same #

[sly shore]

That's just log showing the percentage of abilities rather than actuality

[solemn lance]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[wide kernel]

sub st is like 2.3 in kinda bad gear too

[worn cliff]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[proven plover]

The kb parry change is actually the biggest sub nerf this season

How am i supposed to justify playing sub in a duo rogue setup we are running

Its over

[wide kernel]

got my 3k last night

[keen dome]

Hell yeah!

[wide kernel]

i swear i would be 3.2 now if not for the nightmare that is +12 pugs

[jovial cipher]

14/15s are a nightmare too

[lilac stag]

pugs are a nightmare - fixed

[strong sorrel]

that's a good start

[wide kernel]

yeah gonna see if i can hit title with sub

[strong sorrel]

good spec but shit game tho

[wide kernel]

it does fine if youre comp isnt bad

[strong sorrel]

bad comp is usually when you have sub

[wide kernel]

eh

ele shaman and arms warrior are fine this season

[random hare]

i

love

sub

[alpine wraith]

same man

and now we can get even more mastery

maybe 34k possible

just wait may 13th or whatever

[vestal escarp]

one sided

[left ledge]

Did I miss any sub buffs

[hazy breach]

Nope

[left ledge]

Fuck

[formal helm]

Dw no sub buffs anytime soon

[vale pine]

Only change we had recently was a Bugfix to nimble flurry

[left ledge]

Yeah I saw that one

O well

[hazy breach]

They havent fixed fazed yet

Despite the hotfix notes stating that they did

[left ledge]

Classic

Do we still give no parry raid wide then

[hazy breach]

How is there no sub buffs

[chrome palm]

just buff everything else

[left ledge]

Idk I mean we not great on sims or logs right

[worn ivy]

wait

there is no sub buff

[past marlin]

0 buff nice again

[left ledge]

It’s honestly very strange but tbh

I can see why it’s like this

Corruptions coming back, sub gameplay is good but damage is garbage

YEP ITS BFA BABY

[past marlin]

just play assa

[left ledge]

I am

Until I get hoc

I’m sick of transmitter

It’s just so annoying on most fights

[vestal escarp]

ret buffs

[plush roost]

no subtley notes

i sleep

[fallen mortar]

All the other specs above sub getting buffed and nothing for sub

[vestal escarp]

fool who expected them

[fallen mortar]

nice blizzard

[little scaffold]

bro how is sub not getting any buffs

[sonic quail]

Why would it need buffs

[vestal escarp]

isnt this the shit that got out of hand in nerubar p?

second line mostly

[shut ridge]

having a very normal one seeing every spec in the basement buffed but us

[sonic quail]

Yea it’s a comedy show at this point how they handle classes

[vestal escarp]

i think not chamaleons walk like that

[true pulsar]

The worst specs accordind to warcraftlogs stats: Subtlety, Arms, Fury, Feral, Aug, Frost, Havoc, and Retribution. Literally all of those clases got touched except for Sub

[hazy breach]

"We'd rather you didnt play sub" i guess

[left ledge]

[vestal escarp]

i expected sin buffs tbh

[left ledge]

Assa been their fav child

[vestal escarp]

mid at mugzee

doesnt look good

[left ledge]

Assa is very good in raid though

[true pulsar]

Sin rogue is just slow and simple enougb for the blizzard devs to play it

[left ledge]

Sub is just idk

[shut ridge]

i'm glad i have assassination to fall back on but i would prefer that we not remain the red-headed stepchild spec

that should be outlaw

[strange chasm]

I cannot believe sub is not in the patch notes

[shut ridge]

(delete it)

[strange chasm]

this is insane

[left ledge]

Can you really not believe it

I think we’ve been coping since like

Week 1

[sly shore]

]

😄

[hazy breach]

Sub is also a spec thats really good at padding

[shut ridge]

can't believe we got the old yeller treatment at the start of the tier which certainly wasn't an overreaction btw

[left ledge]

Sub is a spec that CANT not pad

You literally default pad

[shut ridge]

they need to remove their outlaw from my sub

[left ledge]

[shut ridge]

delete nimble flurry

remove CDR

delete bp

[vestal escarp]

there's nothing left to pad tho

[shut ridge]

[hazy breach]

I mean holding flag and blades for barrels on rik is less boss dps

But more pad

[left ledge]

Oh yeah

That ig

[vestal escarp]

barrels are non existant

[left ledge]

We still get shit on by sin though

[hazy breach]

Same with stix

[vestal escarp]

adds on vexie are non existant

[left ledge]

Sin just does sub cleave but better

[vestal escarp]

it doesnt but in these circumstances it does

[graceful rock]

Am I rerolling Aug or what?

[hazy breach]

Well ye because subs numbers are really low

If numbers were equal sub padds harder on adds generally

[true pulsar]

The only think Sin is worse at in raids than other rogue specs is swapping targets and sub isnt even very good at that either

[left ledge]

Well yeah ofc it’s number based

The problem isn’t sub gameplay

[shut ridge]

i will do my part and go back sub for the remainder of farm

[left ledge]

It’s our numbers got gutted before raid launch

And we never got buffed

They just robbed us of burst

[shut ridge]

the whining around then was so wild lmao

[left ledge]

I hate when they nerf shit before they even see how it performs

[slate marlin]

Theres no fucking way

[alpine wraith]

we got the triple tap to the neck

they have been terribly scarred forever by venthyr moonkins

[true pulsar]

I like current sub gameplay a lot, idk if I'll be hated for saying this but i didn't like invigorating shadowdust. I just want sub to do damage

[vestal escarp]

akshually they nerded tier because it was performing nuclear on ptr

[alpine wraith]

dust was cool but not for everyone

[shut ridge]

[vestal escarp]

[merry agate]

Class Tuzning incomming! We get.... nothing? o_o

[alpine wraith]

moving cds around and being versatile is cool in theory

[shut ridge]

yeah in theory sure

[alpine wraith]

but when you have people that dont want to do it

or the way to do it is krangled as f

[slate marlin]

is sub in stealth or what

[shut ridge]

i just want less cdr idk

[fluid moth]

But… it should. Its not like we bring utility like brez

[alpine wraith]

you get the bad things

[shut ridge]

pve smoke bomb 11.2 truther let's fucking go

[vestal escarp]

not even the copium left in me to say we're gonna get the biggest of bandaids next patch

sincerely hopingwe get nothing so the players too can forget about this spec and both parties are happy

[hazy breach]

All the specs with + besides them got buffed

[slate marlin]

There has to be some kind of work coming in .7

for sure

[alpine wraith]

yea more store mounts

you know things that make money

not the 100 people that play sub

[vestal escarp]

100

[shut ridge]

yeah i lost it when i saw that lmfao felt like they are sending us a message

[slate marlin]

let me cope

[left ledge]

Why do they even keep specs they can’t bother putting attention towards until it is beyond repair

Just delete sub

[alpine wraith]

dont worry the day skill mtx comes is near

[junior prawn]

they dont have true sight the devs that is

[shut ridge]

i think you misspelled outlaw

[left ledge]

Outlaw is more often than not pretty good performance wise

[junior prawn]

can sub rogue just be reworked into void rogue in midnight epac

[hazy breach]

First we get a note telling us bugs got fixed when they actually werent fixed, then we get notes where we dont get buffed

[shut ridge]

lalalalala i can't hear you lalalalala

[tepid trellis]

LMAO im not even kidding

i just made that joke

[shut ridge]

i will unsub before i touch outlaw

[tepid trellis]

in guild disc

[vestal escarp]

the nimble fix is bait?

[hazy breach]

No nimble should be fixed

[left ledge]

Fazed

[vestal escarp]

[hazy breach]

But fazed isnt

[tepid trellis]

@hazy breach

[vestal escarp]

fazed mb

[hazy breach]

Theyre bringing back BFA nostalgia

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[hazy breach]

Of sub being unplayable

[alpine wraith]

they still have to do the cool one

of making a cool thing showcase

then just giving it to assa

need that one to complete the bingo

[left ledge]

I still can’t believe the most popular we saw sub was during storm bp helicopter spam

[slate marlin]

what was that?

[tepid trellis]

hey atleast we can cope when doing shit dmg

"we are last on stats so thats why im half afk during fights"

[hazy breach]

My crafted items have haste on them

[alpine wraith]

i will let you find out

[warm marlin]

this just means it will get buffed next week for sure

[alpine wraith]

just it was an azerite that made storm strong

[warm marlin]

by the time I have dinar HoC sub will be SO back

[alpine wraith]

but misteriously got changed to fan of knives only

or they chose the literally worst stat to give in first dance

when the previous one was so good

[strange chasm]

2 patches in a row where sub is right above aug

[alpine wraith]

then nerfed it anyway

[strange chasm]

I don't think its getting buffed

[vestal escarp]

nope

[strange chasm]

Does Aug pass sub now maybe 😮

[vestal escarp]

15% flat

[hazy breach]

Probably not

Like half of their damage is their own, so its like +7%

[slate marlin]

echoing blades?? reads cool af

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe we should start actively tanking the metrics. It's fucking disgusting what's happening

[slate marlin]

tsnk what

its only above aug

[tepid trellis]

its about to be below

[fallow nimbus]

Tank lvl dmg

[heady dragon]

they are pushing them into the "less buff more personal dmg" direction

funny, i called that one when it was revealed

[slate marlin]

and closest specs to it got buffed

no need to tank, its already bottom low

[hazy breach]

Probably more like equal tbh, but still whack

[junior prawn]

I do tank damage as 615 unholy 😭

in +7

[graceful rock]

I still top my guild as sub

[junior prawn]

Its time for sub rogues to sandbag like the Rat Paladins

[tepid trellis]

did you go in test if nimble + fazed was fixed

cuz they did say they fixed it

[hazy breach]

Fazed is not fixed

[honest brook]

its not fun they buff ret? already blasting keys

[tepid trellis]

aite cool

[hazy breach]

Nimble is annoying to test and spelldata shows they did the same thing to nimble like they did to bf for outlaw

[tepid trellis]

im going on a break

[hazy breach]

And they say its fixed

so i didnt bother checking

[merry agate]

we unloved apdoptive child fr fr

sittin under the stairs like harry potter 🫂

[fallow nimbus]

We are harry potter under the stairs but magic doesn't exists

[tepid trellis]

and we arent protected by plot armor

so we just sit in there all day

[swift tinsel]

Nah we’re Neville’s toad that you see on screen once then never again

[tepid trellis]

getting dust in our eyes

[merry agate]

dust?

[swift tinsel]

So you know it’s there but not enough to be relevant

[wide kernel]

Bro

What the actual f

[alpine wraith]

at least they fixed the real cool sub spec

named arcane

[swift tinsel]

Just reroll Aug so you get buffed

[wide kernel]

Buffs to ret, feral arms and holy

[alpine wraith]

i will just keep farming for mastery items

[wide kernel]

Nothing for sub?

[junior prawn]

They just keeping sub rogue down for the next expac where we become avengers level threat

[swift tinsel]

Lmao

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[wide kernel]

How in the world does ret need buffs more than us

[alpine wraith]

they have around 1000x the playerbase

[merry agate]

somethings coming, something big
activate cope injection 150%

[alpine wraith]

or maybe more

[junior prawn]

Dev on team must be parsing 10%

[fallow nimbus]

If the next post doesn't have anything about sub then it's really over

[swift tinsel]

They want us gone so they can delete sub and add support spec

[alpine wraith]

they can still make a good tier set

then nerf it again

[junior prawn]

400% buff to shuriken toss coming right up

[alpine wraith]

and buff builders

[swift tinsel]

Restless Crew bot

Or like Anna where we shoot buffs into allies

[junior prawn]

Alchemist Rogue

[wide kernel]

Surely they will update it, it seems light on changes

[swift tinsel]

Subtilely

[fallow nimbus]

Imagine they really do the shit support spec for midnight

[swift tinsel]

I mean

They could

[merry agate]

we still have barrels on rik bois

they cant take that from us

[swift tinsel]

They just kinda throwing the whole pot at the wall

[junior prawn]

Healer Rogue spec 🙏

[tepid trellis]

welp

[fallow nimbus]

They would lose 10 players

[hazy breach]

Ye we're not getting that 1.25% extra dps for keys, despite notes saying that we did

[wide kernel]

Bro what hot garbage is this company

[junior prawn]

Time to roll UDK 😔

So i can feel how doing damage feels

[hazy breach]

Well they just got nerfed

[alpine wraith]

seems like it is not that bad for them

[hazy breach]

Can simply just swap to #assassination

[wide kernel]

It's a lot udk got nerfed by

[hazy breach]

~3%

[junior prawn]

I cba recrafting my gear , might aswell just gear diff character in mean time and wait 2 years for sub buff

[wide kernel]

Yeah well the last time I heard 3% nerf I watched about 8 mil get cleaved off of their openers

[honest brook]

ret -ret blasting soon

[junior prawn]

happens when a class does 500 mil dps

[wide kernel]

8 mil dps not damage

[junior prawn]

nah i tried ret a little to simple

[junior prawn]

ye im just kiddin about their high damage

[wide kernel]

These ret changes prob won't stay

No way they keep that and don't lower aoe

[honest brook]

they had decent st even they buffed final verdict

[swift tinsel]

Ret can just drop Empyrean hammers once then play whackamole for 100% uptime on it

What’s not to love

[bleak night]

is sub going to lose to aug next week

[tropic pier]

Pretty funny they buffed all the bottom specs except sub haha. We must ve stealthed.

[slate marlin]

well spec is called sub

not dom

cant be on top

[tribal blade]

HHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

[wide kernel]

We will get tuning next week don't worry🤣

[slate marlin]

this is me making that joke

[tribal blade]

there's just no way

[slate marlin]

spot on

[tribal blade]

how is this a thing

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[slate marlin]

there has ti be some kind of worj coming to the spec

[hazy breach]

(check the one below too)

[slate marlin]

but then again

[slate marlin]

they still buff underperforming secs

[molten citrus]

[tribal blade]

the cursed timeline is back

[slate marlin]

when they are about ti get some kind of work done

like prot pala last season

[shut ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/it's-over-it's-genuinely-over-trout-trout-dying-trout-it's-over-gif-4267717049801794134

[hardy snow]

when they tried to get sin's ST up they found one talent that isn't used in m+, so what sub talent we dont use in ST but in m+?

[bleak night]

this should be pinned tbh

lmao

[tepid trellis]

TFD is the only talent we play in m+ that we dont in raid

cuz you cant proc it in raid

[molten citrus]

this is criminal

[hazy breach]

I mean for most raid fights tfd is actually good

Or rather equally good as WM

[slate marlin]

Revert st nerfs

and tier

rework ds

on god remove cdr

[hardy snow]

maybe TFD is the one, but, well, more are talents we neither use in ST nor in m+. lol

[hazy breach]

But idk why we wouldnt want sub to be buffed in keys

Its not good in keys

[alpine wraith]

this can and will happen

[slate marlin]

it needs nerfs overall

[alpine wraith]

because less and less good people are playing sub

if they buff bp again we might need to talk to the manager

[spice matrix]

[hardy snow]

i want to get flag into passive like SBS. automatically happen with dance. we have 30% uptime flexible burst window and we dont need two 90s major cd

[slate marlin]

I just want a bit more gameplay out of cdd

cds

[crystal bone]

ty blizz

[tribal blade]

in all seriousness why is this happening

did they overlook it

or are there other stats they're looking at

i'm genuinely confused

[fallow nimbus]

It's bullying at this point, nothing more, nothing less

[hardy snow]

When a burst spec relying on CDR but its burst not relying on CDR, it fails.

[fallow nimbus]

Or actual incompetence maybe

[slate marlin]

all your cdr farm

happens inside of cds

and out of cds it feels atrocious

gameplay still top

[hardy snow]

in the past, when we have dust, we're complex but our burst is relying on CDR, and that makes us suffer from complicated CDR mechanisms but we handle. Now we cannot.

[tepid trellis]

all they gotta do to not make cdr feel like garbage and leave a lil wiggle room is up env shadow by 0.2 sec

[tribal blade]

i mean how tf do we go from being the best spec in the game at the start of the season

to the worst

or almost worst

[tepid trellis]

well thats what happens when you have 80% of you power week 1

[wide kernel]

Our burst is like 10-15% undertuned and our outside of cds is undertuned by like 40%

[tribal blade]

with nerfs alongside it 🙂

[tepid trellis]

and other classes getting buffed

we have just been left to rot

it is what it is

[hardy snow]

we have now a 16s window, a 24s window but only two dances. how are they expecting us to do it?

[tribal blade]

@pliant topaz i wish you were here to rant

[fallow nimbus]

That we don't even got 1 ptr with a damn cdr change just to test it is mind boggling

[tribal blade]

i always enjoyed a good armin rant

[hardy snow]

True, and they would say: oh we fixed some cleave bugs and you got some damage.

[tepid trellis]

if only they actually fixed all that they say they did

cuz as far as i can tell

they did infact not

[wide kernel]

What you got

[hardy snow]

from tracking 8 to tracking 25? idk, someone told me this.

[tepid trellis]

nimble is not hitting dead mobs

that they fixed

[pliant topaz]

hiii, how u been dude, been a minute :p

[tepid trellis]

fazed is still not working on nimble

so

[tribal blade]

yoooo

we're in hell right now

but that's fine because i'm just gonna be a sin main

[hardy snow]

Yea, their programmer told them it is fixed and they believed it.

[pliant topaz]

no shot, so bad theyre making you swap?

thats just embarassing

[tepid trellis]

recent dmg tuning

[tribal blade]

it's really bad

[tepid trellis]

that gives the TLDR pretty good

[fallow nimbus]

Gally is dead, hof secured and i chill on sub until i quit

[tepid trellis]

im too much of a dps chaser to warrant me playing sub atm

[pliant topaz]

Lowkey, based on the changes to spec in 11.1, and the quality of items, I didnt really expect sub to be playable this tier

[tribal blade]

here's a higher res img

[tepid trellis]

well it was looking good

then they nerfed us 1 week before patch

and just slowly buffed everything else

so its been a work in progress for them to make us bottom

[pliant topaz]

if you mean the tier nerf, that was expected because tier was kinda stupid strong

[tepid trellis]

nope

[hardy snow]

Sub is really like every season so promising and all RWF uses it and thrown into the bin after 2 months

[tepid trellis]

they slapped us with like 6% for good measure

[hazy breach]

Not that change no

[tepid trellis]

1 week before

[tribal blade]

this is what blizz has done to me

[pliant topaz]

oh there was another nerf? lmfao classic

[hazy breach]

ye

[patent crystal]

Sub is simply too stealthy, devs cant see the spec

[pliant topaz]

its like, heres a spec, the items the spec scales with are so bad, the spec is gonna run last tiers items. well, given that its litealrly gonne fall off a cliff 2 months in the patch, should we atleast let them be strong early during prog?

nah fuck them, nerf them so theyre jsut shit the entire time

im so smart

[brittle plinth]

Good job team, we dodged another potential buff with class tuning.

[tepid trellis]

but like the raid is in farm mode for me now, so even tho im annoyed at the lack of attention, i dont really care all that much im only raid logging anyway
just fuckign hope we see some decent attention on ptr to fix this spec to not feel awful to play when you drop 1 nano second of uptime

[hardy snow]

The tier is, well, idk if it is related to PVP, sluggy as a tier could be.

[tribal blade]

i could understand them messing that up and then realizing what happened, then tuning us accordingly after

but they're just leaving us in the dirst

🙂

[pliant topaz]

I feel like every tier since I started playing this game, all the way till I quit, I was coping that surely they pay the spec some attention

and the only time it got anything was 10.2, and that was halfa ssed

[tepid trellis]

like i dont even wanna be the top dog spec

[pliant topaz]

and saved by 1) a giga tier set. 2) good suggestions from this discord to make shadowcraft an actual talent

[tepid trellis]

i just wanna be like middle of the pack u know?

cuz clearly whenever a rogue spec is top dog

we get slam nerfed like 3 weeks in a row

while enhance gets to sit there for 6 months

[fallow nimbus]

It's not even that it needs so much thought but it just needs 1 thought from 1 braincell

[tepid trellis]

like at some point it just becomes fucking silly uknow

and like if you GENUINELY

dont know how to fix sub

[tribal blade]

i think armin is the smartest of us pulling the eject cord

[brisk onyx]

I bet one of the designers really hates rogue

[tepid trellis]

then just give it a proper rework

[brisk onyx]

[tepid trellis]

redesign the shit spec from the ground up

instead of these fcking constant back and forward battles

every expansion

[blissful gale]

But if u have no clue the rework is also gonna be garbage no

[pliant topaz]

i mean you know, and I know its usually a resource issue for them

[tribal blade]

sub does really need a rework

[pliant topaz]

always, no time

[alpine wraith]

since wod it has been a train wreck tbh

[pliant topaz]

what do theuy spend their time on? personally I have 0 clue

[alpine wraith]

first iteration of legion sub was also disastrous

[tribal blade]

to at the very least fix all these buttons and talents we have that cause such massive problems

[tepid trellis]

if you fully rework it they can make it whatever the fuck they wanna make it into

[alpine wraith]

idk too busy groping asses or stealing milk at that time maybe

[patent crystal]

buffing other specs

[alpine wraith]

but now they have no excuse

[pliant topaz]

unless the class team is sitting there writing the questline for next tier

idk what they spend their time on

[blissful gale]

True

[alpine wraith]

they are likely stretched too thin also need a 300iq person to work on rogue

because it has this ancient code

[pliant topaz]

bro, on what?

[alpine wraith]

remember when we talked to scarizard or others about things like NS

[fallow nimbus]

The first legion version with passive dance was the first clue, we didn't want to see the signs

[alpine wraith]

and subterfuge

[pliant topaz]

like the class design team is 10 people

[alpine wraith]

that had like 12 diff versd

[pliant topaz]

what do they spend their time on

[leaden prairie]

More like 20

[pliant topaz]

last i heard was 10

[brisk onyx]

[alpine wraith]

busy getting replaced by ai

maybe

[leaden prairie]

You can check from the credits

I think it was more around 20 last I checked

[alpine wraith]

because i would trust grok more

to make chances at this rate

[leaden prairie]

Maybe I miss remember

[pliant topaz]

20 just makes it worse.

[leaden prairie]

But ye idk they are just Perma afk

[pliant topaz]

but serious question, wtf do they spend their time on

[leaden prairie]

Working on next expac or smth

[bleak night]

playing oblivion remaster

[wide kernel]

Buffing ret paladin

[fallow nimbus]

Chat gpt would make a better spec

[pliant topaz]

like do you actually just go to office, take a 15 min scrum, then shit for 7:45 hours

then go hime?

[hardy snow]

and we still have Goremaw's, where anyone uses it?

[pliant topaz]

u mean u want anotehr 5% goremaw buff?

[hazy breach]

atleast goremaw actually increases your damage compared to no talent at all

Compared to perforated veins

[hardy snow]

if no one uses it, remove it.

that difficult?

[brisk onyx]

perforated veins

[pliant topaz]

i love having my entire capstong area be gated by 2 pointers, but also gated by pv and lingering

[hazy breach]

How much do you think perforate veins gives

[pliant topaz]

i just love gating everything for fun

[brisk onyx]

the best

[pliant topaz]

man im so good

[hazy breach]

0.2%

[pliant topaz]

woah those are almost SF numbers

pls nerf netx patch

[brisk onyx]

iq 30 talent

[pliant topaz]

also dont forget another nerf for SF

[brisk onyx]

[hardy snow]

and pv consumed by what generates it is just, idk, IELTS 8 cannot find a proper word

[tribal blade]

we can go lower with SF

[pliant topaz]

true

2.5% take it or leave it

[wide kernel]

Whenever I look at cap stones they seem really undertuned for being.... capstones on the actual sub tree at least

[pliant topaz]

i wouldnt say undertuned

there are some capstones that are like 20% damage (flag)

[hazy breach]

Danse macabre, shadowcraft and dark shadows are not undertuned at all

[pliant topaz]

some that are like 14% damage (dm)

some insanely strong capsetoes

[left ledge]

goremaw

[pliant topaz]

then theres others that are jsut 0 (pv / lingering etc)

then theres untakables (goremaw)

[wide kernel]

Shadowcraft is for sure undertuned

It requires a shaman to be functional

[tepid trellis]

[hazy breach]

It doesnt

Shadowcraft makes shaman less required

[left ledge]

uh

shadowcraft is like

carrying the spec hard

[pliant topaz]

is SC still bugged btw?

[left ledge]

i think without shadowcraft sub actually just fucking dies lmao

[hazy breach]

If you mean it gives double energy then yes

[brisk onyx]

Perforate veins is a 100-year-old grandfather telling you how powerful he was when he was young

[pliant topaz]

LMFAO

[wide kernel]

Look at the rotten

[hazy breach]

Shaman was more important before with dust

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/laughing-lol-haha-so-funny-funny-gif-15155799540154128453

[wide kernel]

It buffs really weak builders.... as a capstone and those things might have interactions but still

[hazy breach]

Now its like equal to warrior

[hardy snow]

and Tornado is almost a joke as it requires idk how many targets to actually work?

[pliant topaz]

I feel like youre mad at the wrong things

shadocraft is great, rottens meh but strike do be going brr so its "fine", not exciting but fine

theres a lot worse shit in there

[hardy snow]

When they redesigned PV, they expect what? 4 BS between good generators?

[hazy breach]

They could just make it be 50% at all times, and its still not fantastic

[hardy snow]

maybe a Storm

[alpine wraith]

pv would be fine if goremaw as like legion

where it had 890% or so ap scaling

ours has 3xx now

....

almost 1/3 of the dmg

[hardy snow]

900% ap generator, but not nimblable

[alpine wraith]

dont think anyone would complain if you had a 31m dmg nuke every 45 secs

[brisk onyx]

[pliant topaz]

idk man, the sod charges shoulda been more central with better access, pv / lingering / rotten shoulda been kinda grouped together and made to have good synergy (make them all only kinda work with strike )

its legit not that hard

u can make different builds

[alpine wraith]

i have been reporting this one since week 1

any day now they listen

they made ER work but not goremaw after they messed it uo

it did work in alpha

[fallow nimbus]

They have you on their spam list

[left ledge]

what if we just make lingering 2 points again

[alpine wraith]

LUL

[left ledge]

and buff gloomblade

[alpine wraith]

likely

[left ledge]

[hardy snow]

I knew that and I even made a post in cn community about a build but they forgot

[pliant topaz]

bros just trying to make guys wet dream

[alpine wraith]

lingering would be kinda fine if it worked on shadowstrike on the second dance

but it just does not

LUL

[wide kernel]

On another note

[alpine wraith]

i mean whatever shadowstrikes already almost crit for 2 mil

or if it worked on unseen

or if it began when activating dance

[wide kernel]

Why in the world did they say they fix nimble / fazed interaction when they did not?

[alpine wraith]

instead of exiting

maybe they fixed it on a further internal build

and forgot to merge changes

not the first time

[wide kernel]

If they fixed fazed interaction, wouldn't that be a huge boost to our dps?

[hardy snow]

Because the build they believe they fixed it wasn't the build they fixed it

[alpine wraith]

blizz version control is done by the intern

[tepid trellis]

not really

[alpine wraith]

or maybe the son of the intern

[left ledge]

why didnt sub get an edge of night capstone ill never know

[wide kernel]

Is this the sc2 intern?

[hardy snow]

really not, ngl

[wide kernel]

Because it feels like it

[alpine wraith]

or maybe it got offshored

so they can push at any time of the day

and rasheed forgot to merge

[pliant topaz]

because they had better ideas like sepsis? duh

[left ledge]

oh yeah that one was more fitting for sub rogue

not assa though

[alpine wraith]

sepsis could have been cool

but they decided to not iterate at all

[leaden prairie]

At most it's just a 5% DPS gain for nimble flurry

[alpine wraith]

same with ER

[hardy snow]

sepsis was so cool tbh

[alpine wraith]

i mean it had the conduit or the anima powers etc to add

but they just natty dropped it

as a CHOICE NODE

the madlads

[leaden prairie]

Nvm it would also work on bp, well doesn't matter

[alpine wraith]

[leaden prairie]

Less than 5% AOE gain right

[alpine wraith]

yea not a lot

[leaden prairie]

Bit shit

[left ledge]

yeah this spec needs buffs

[tepid trellis]

yeh its not that good

[left ledge]

bug fixes and buffs

[alpine wraith]

like 1% or so

[pliant topaz]

realz said his goal with lingering was to put damage into dance without making it super spiky, the conceppt of delaying it in a way is good. but like everything else about thsi spec its half assed. he coulda had so many different avenues of damage for lingering but unlcuky I guess

guess you just go backstab

[wide kernel]

Backstab seems so week

[pastel rampart]

should pin this

[alpine wraith]

idk sub rn for me feels like they just dont want to work on it at all

and every time they do is like they have a gun to their heads

[wide kernel]

And storm basically isn't even an ability

[left ledge]

they dont

they made every other spec a 1.5min spec

and forgot about sub

[alpine wraith]

AAAAA not sub again what are they complaining about

[hardy snow]

it does not need to be that complex. just make a x% of shadow damage you did in dance as a dot after dance

[alpine wraith]

lets see

[left ledge]

i mean we're not even complaining about much though

just fucking buff the spec

[pliant topaz]

rn? bro i started df beta, left befre 11.1 the entire time it looked like youre kicking their balls if u mention sub + spending time on the spec

[hardy snow]

it can be as slow as he wants it

[left ledge]

what metrics are they using to buff the other specs

i dont get it

[alpine wraith]

dont worry been like this since pandaria kinda

[left ledge]

how does sub not send giant red alerts

[alpine wraith]

even on cata they kinda made sub playable at the end

only because of a busted thing

that was needed

unexpected

[pliant topaz]

thats one possible idea. theres a lot of ways to accomplish the same goal. to me backstab buff after dance is probably one of the worst ways u can go about it

so we got that one

o7

[alpine wraith]

then they were like damn

this might be playable in pve

what do we do

[left ledge]

imagine goremaw buffed damage of finishers by 30%

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/game-bottle-truth-or-dare-kulfy-hindi-gif-7950199704557982936

[left ledge]

instead of free energy

when we're in infinite energy

[alpine wraith]

yea i wished that too

or even made them not consume cp

for like 2 times

[left ledge]

why energy

[alpine wraith]

so you could get more shadowcraft power

[left ledge]

when we have energy problems we DONT DO DAMAGE

[alpine wraith]

like build to 8

then goremaw into finisher finisher finisher finisher

would be so cool

[left ledge]

whats funny to me is that goremaw was put in with the rework that made it so that we are infinite energy in our damage window

[hardy snow]

Energy was a thing in 7.x, but that's how many years ago?

[alpine wraith]

energy was always a thing kinda except in sl and beyond

they just gave up

[hardy snow]

they didn't, we got WS

for energy maybe

or for Shadowcraft idk

Warning Sign: when you're considering this talent, this is the warning.

maybe 60% haste could make a difference

[wide kernel]

Maybe there is a rework for sub atm

That's why literally zero updates

[junior prawn]

Shadow Clone Jutsu

[wide kernel]

Sub is really really hard to play well, it feels horrible to play and it's mediocre while being really hard to balance for keys and raid

Like if they buffed us in raid to be just over the top spec, we'd overperform in m+

[tepid trellis]

they can thank nimble cringe ass flurry for that

they dug this hole themselves

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure sub is pretty far from being good in keys

[junior prawn]

remove hero talents 🥹

[frank bobcat]

You know what’s sad to think about - those dps charts likely reflect the very best output sub can do given that only degens are still playing this class

To be in the top 10% of sub parses means you are placing amongst people who really know what they are doing on the spec

[obtuse shard]

How is sub buffs

[hardy snow]

BTW, demise should be our raid buff, reducing 2% max hp of non-boss and 1% of boss.

for all rogue specs

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

dont worry next week we get beaten by aug

then surely things will change

[wide kernel]

There is legit cases where Aug is stronger than sub in raid

Were there already

[uneven scarab]

I think aug beats frost mage lmfao

what a world we live in

Its so joever

[formal helm]

has more attention directed at it that's for sure

[wide kernel]

Just buff nimble flurry and bp and we are fine

I do not understand why that is hard

[formal helm]

true

watch them buff slice and dice next

[wide kernel]

And then buff the shit out of DS for raid

[short radish]

no next patch notes will be

backstab buffed by 60%

and everyone will go WOW AMAZING SUB BUFFS

[formal helm]

yep.

[tepid trellis]

yeah please dont

[shut ridge]

delete DS

[formal helm]

and it's still gonna be fucking 6 dmg

[tepid trellis]

we dont want that anywhere near raiding

[shut ridge]

delete outlaw

delete cdr

[wide kernel]

I have not tried DS. why do people say it is horrible like that

[hazy breach]

Buffing black powder without buffing eviscerate the same is among the dumbest things they could do

[tepid trellis]

try it

[hardy snow]

buffing DS is going to be a nightmare for player to actually do the content in raid

[tepid trellis]

and you will know

[uneven scarab]

They should delete ds

Thats a valid approach

id say

[vestal escarp]

woah 500+ msgs

[wide kernel]

This channel tells me not to

[formal helm]

bp on st

[vestal escarp]

without notes

[tepid trellis]

u dont wanan BP on single target?

[vestal escarp]

erm purple names? slow mode sub pls?

[hazy breach]

Blackpowder is better than darkest night on aoe, so you ideally want to strike different targets to prevent it from proccing

[uneven scarab]

bro im gonna bp so hard in st

[formal helm]

exactly why there's 400 mssgs...

[hazy breach]

And if you do accidently proc it because you got shadowcraft refunds

You should cancelaura it during dance

(its unironically a dps gain to do)

[formal helm]

fucking hell

why is that a thing

[hardy snow]

Just give "singular focus" a cleave for sub's DN evis

[wide kernel]

Sub is definitely getting reworked if it's that bad. That doesn't even sound like the last rework worked

[hazy breach]

Thats deathstalker

[formal helm]

ye reworked. good one.

[hazy breach]

Not sub

[vestal escarp]

dont you lose mark until next dance?

[short radish]

worst thing is we got reworked in 10.1 dragonflight

so we just got a rework

[vestal escarp]

with cancelaura

[tepid trellis]

DS was just designed for assa, and it shows

[hardy snow]

or better, apply DN to SecTech

[vestal escarp]

also i think it doesnt work on dn

[hazy breach]

I shouldve specified during dance

So you'd just strike to apply it again

[formal helm]

okay and mage gets reworked every other patch??

same for pala

[hardy snow]

I'm really fine with 10.1 sub

[short radish]

yes but mage is the hero class of wow

and everyone and their mother plays paladin

to be fair paladins were kinda shitty until 10.1 or 10.2

[vestal escarp]

3 am sub yapp sesh

🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️

[hardy snow]

so we have hero class for children and shinning class for grandma

[shut ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/yapping-yapping-level-today-catastrophic-yapanese-gif-13513208407930173397

love to yap

[vestal escarp]

convo derailed into BP buffs

[shut ridge]

natural conclusion

[hardy snow]

it's always BP

[wide kernel]

Honestly just buff bp call it a day

Rework us in 11.2

[hardy snow]

no, rework us in 12.0 alpha and then nerf it til 13.2

[hazy breach]

Its just an aura buff angle really

But they'd rather we didnt play sub so

[vestal escarp]

it's the easiest 2+2 tbh

burst spec but blizz doesnt like burst and sub is not allowed to have sustanied because burst spec

[hardy snow]

"there're so many fantastic specs! reroll and you'll be fine"?

[vestal escarp]

[formal helm]

if I hear that one more time man

[hardy snow]

I got it like every minute in cn forum

[junior prawn]

there are so many fantastic specs ! 😃 🔫

[formal helm]

I hear it from my guildies

🙂

[wide kernel]

At this point isn't it just all ret paladins?

[formal helm]

you're all copin'
what sub needs is a mastery nerf!

[hardy snow]

in cn forum, Ret pala post on Demise damage stealing every day.
They control the propagation.

[vestal escarp]

castle natria?

[formal helm]

china?

bring back castle nathria..

[hardy snow]

no politics, and yes China.

[vestal escarp]

legit i can see go to 200% because of complaints

[polar sentinel]

Why there's nothing in next patch note. Is sub (rogue) perfect to make any changes? fuck

[hardy snow]

Or the very opposite of perfect

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[formal helm]

[hardy snow]

at the beginning of the season, I even told cn sub followers that it is going to be a sub season because they even give resources to fix RS.

[polar sentinel]

Ret pala and Death Knight got buffed while sub is deleting. I'm 100% sure that they forget about the sub

[wide kernel]

I doubt the ret changes are going to go live as is without aoe nerfs

Well I don't think they just forgot about us

But something is going on for sure

[hazy breach]

More people enjoy assassination, so theyre keeping assa as the default rogue spec

[wide kernel]

Sure

[hardy snow]

Now I do think they just forgot about RS. and years later it got fixed

[hazy breach]

Not much more to it

[wide kernel]

And everyone hates aug

And they are buffing Aug to not be dead anymore

[vestal escarp]

🗣️

[tribal blade]

sub players are so conditioned to being ignored we see a bug being fixed years later and we're like 'omg blizz is turning things around for us"

"things are going to be different now"

[vestal escarp]

slow down

which bug

[wide kernel]

They didn't fix all of the that bug even

[vestal escarp]

important question

[hardy snow]

this channel is getting emotional, time to sleep maybe.

[tribal blade]

RS 😉

[hazy breach]

The RS refund bug

Not RS in general

[polar sentinel]

What does RS stand for?

[hazy breach]

Replicating shadows

[hardy snow]

stand for invisible clones who does extra rupture work for you

[graceful rock]

So I sim higher on sub then I do on assa, is that normal?

[paper ether]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

you can post the sims in here and peeps will take a look

[hazy breach]

But yes assa typically sims quite low

Not sure why, Ive tried my very best to spot differences between the game and the sim but havent found much, not for sub either

[swift tinsel]

If they buff ds and it becomes notable stronger than trickster I will resub just to delete my rogue

[hazy breach]

Dw nothing got buffed, no need

[swift tinsel]

Not really but I’d consider it

Cool my $14.99 is safe for now

[tribal blade]

i can't wait for them to mega buff DS again and then we get the sub rogue memes coming from this channel

[swift tinsel]

I’ll add some for sure

[tribal blade]

like the last time

i don't have that image saved someone made

where they took a compliation of everything we were saying in here

[leaden prairie]

Whispyr sandbagging once again

Cba

[swift tinsel]

Watch they fix the DN bug and people are pissed instead of thankful

[leaden prairie]

Dn?

[swift tinsel]

Darkest night

And how it blocks mark consumption

[leaden prairie]

[tribal blade]

the fact that they think DS is still an acceptable playstyle

is wild to me

[swift tinsel]

Like conceptually is halfway alright, buffing finishers and getting a super big one after cycling marks but locking it to a max cp evisc only is just not it

And the non-mark/DN talents are doody

[hazy breach]

Buffing eviscerate by 43% with DN

Imagine if it was 60%

That would be crazy

[swift tinsel]

I’m getting tier set flashbacks with that 60%

[tribal blade]

i think it's even worse than that fundamentally, the fact that it locks you to 1 target is horrible

[tribal blade]

THERE IT IS

[steel horizon]

dark days

[swift tinsel]

Saved

Hey I’m in there lmao

Didn’t even notice

[tribal blade]

i got featured twice

because i'm a yapper

[alpine wraith]

weird i dont see myself

[tribal blade]

you're in there twice too i think hacha

[steel horizon]

i wish i could read the text in the second frame of the disappointed guy meme. lol

not enough pixels

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure its the plague damage buffed by 40%

[steel horizon]

kek

[alpine wraith]

oh true

it is just tiny

[tribal blade]

could happen again

[swift tinsel]

Gotta add that whole picture to a corner of the new disappointment collage

[tribal blade]

we're so ungrateful

we should grovel at blizz's feet when they decide to throw crumbs

[alpine wraith]

watch them buff DS again

or builders

[swift tinsel]

Hey we got unannounced bug fixes on last ptr that we had to figure out ourselves were so thankful

[upbeat cradle]

GUYS I GOT IT

we can't get buffs

because we are stealthed