subtlety

[lucid jackal]

I think you coup first tho right @hazy breach

[jolly pasture]

ST being sectec in this case?

or shadowstrike

wait im dumb

[odd cedar]

sectec

[jolly pasture]

too many abbreviations

[uneven scarab]

Ideally i think so yeah

More finisher damage on sectech=good

[alpine fossil]

Does anyone have any idea why my sim is casting Rupture 3 times right before CDs without the new tier set or Finality? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nJSh2UW7D2YE9B8UByuPcF

Expert mode is just adding pre pull super charger

[vestal escarp]

15s of crd on sectech = also good

[thorny zodiac]

weaponmaster or the first dance?

[dense coyote]

whoa

im doing 5.4 mil bursts as 619 il on 5 target dummies 😮

feels awesome

[uneven scarab]

first dance trust

wm is poopy

[alpine fossil]

It's better the shorter the fight is

[lucid jackal]

Where?

[uneven scarab]

Its nearly equal even on a 5 min fight to wm

[alpine fossil]

So if you're killing boss in like 2.5 mins it's probably very good

[uneven scarab]

Its that strong

[thorny zodiac]

why is it stronger if its short fight?

what about m+?

[uneven scarab]

its big in m+

[thorny zodiac]

weaponmaster in m+?

[uneven scarab]

You can get alot of procs of tfd in m+

No wm is just weak overall compared to first dance

Kinda everywhere

[civic lava]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine fossil]

Just the spenders:
1:10 Rupture
1:16 Coup
1:22 Rupture
1:31 Rupture
1:35 Flag

[uneven scarab]

Yeah towards his second set of cd’s

It does it

[twilit phoenix]

bros sub is so fun rn

[alpine fossil]

Right but that optimization was only ever added to play around the new set bonus, no?

[lucid jackal]

Without knowing. Likely some fucker involving rerupturing going into a set of cooldowns

As this doesn't look correct to do

[alpine fossil]

Fosho, just an APL issue then ye?

Yeah it makes 0 sense

Like I would maybe understand if it's holding Coup or something, but clearly it's not LOL

[dense coyote]

I know im just messing around on target dummies and i love it

[alpine fossil]

I can't imagine this is something that's worth fixing since the season is right around the corner, but there's clearly something wrong with some Rupture condition somewhere

Oh I didn't realize the full report shows you which condition is responsible for the cast, that's giga

[vale pine]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[alpine fossil]

Oh it's straight up set to only cast Rupture if you're playing Trickster and flag is almost up

[twilit phoenix]

bring back sepsis

and make goremaw's bite giga

[half comet]

in pure ST how many dance sec tecs will you get off in between cdooldwons

[bold urchin]

the !burst thing says dont use symbols to early, the st sim uses it before the 2nd shadowdance? whats the correct way? ^^

[half comet]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[alpine fossil]

Might be worthwhile condition to check if it's possible to delay re-applying Rupture, (i.e. don't immediately cast on your first spender within the pandemic window), to get the cast to naturally align with that Rupture-only window.

[tired hound]

been trying to learn a bit reviewing timelines of openers, seeing several people in high parses using SB right after the first secret tech, is there a reason for that vs what would be in the written guide on like wowhead?

[lucid jackal]

It used to be better do it right after

It's now better to use it right before

Likely just old habits

[tired hound]

ty

[maiden oar]

i apologize if this is impossible to explain, but im new to wow coming from other mmos where sims arent really as much of a thing and i see some people say the sub rogue nerf is unwarranted bc the spec doesnt sim too well and then i see some people say sub rogue is so good they will nerf it again and that sims are not a good indicator of class performance, why is that the case?

i believe them since they seem to know what they are talking about but

[lucid jackal]

I'm confused on specifically what you're asking

I guess hopefully I can answer it

[tired hound]

sims are exactly that a simulated run, they wont be 1 to 1 to a real boss fight and each boss fight will be different to the next

[lucid jackal]

Broadly speaking, sims shouldn't be used across specs, or classes

And fights and encounters exist within context, while a Sim does not

[maiden oar]

uh i see people say that sub simming below the best specs doesn matter because that has no bearing on actual performance and the spec is still very good and im just curious since id figure an uptime reliant spec performs worse than sims relative to other specs and not better

[maiden oar]

i guess i come from a game where the only context is if the boss dies before you can use your last set of cds or not and every fight is single target

which maybe is different

[alpine fossil]

Fights will have shit like damage amps or forced downtime which means many specs will over/underperform relative to their sim within the context of that raid

[warm wyvern]

Guys how is sub performing in high keys ,? viable or you think I will struggle finding groups ?

[tired hound]

alot of people also sim patchwork, which obv doesn't account for movement, adds, mechanics etc

[maiden oar]

i see

[alpine fossil]

Like even if Sub sims worse than the other specs, if a fight has a 100% damage amp every 90s then Sub will do way more damage than the other two

[lucid jackal]

This might be a lot to explain but sin is a 2 min spec and sub is a 1:30 spec right.

Let's say a fight spawns a group of 5 adds that have to die at 1:40 into a fight.

Let's say sin sims 1.5m dps and sub sims 1.3m dps. Which spec is going to be more valuable on that encounter specifically?

[maiden oar]

yeah that makes sense

[twilit phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/math-numbers-counted-fingers-solution-gif-15969853

[lucid jackal]

But also sims aren't exactly useful for even telling you the best "st spec". If you look at st patchwork Sims across all specs last tier, sin was one of the worst simming specs in the game, yet somehow it was the highest boss damage on a majority of fights

[warm wyvern]

DO you think Sub is vible for high keys or I might struggle finding groups ?

[lucid jackal]

Realistically speaking, sims should be "what item is an upgrade, what should I do in this specific scenario, how should I deal with this proc" and not "which spec is the strongest"

[maiden oar]

yeah this is what im curious about

since sin doesnt have the cdr mechs that sub has righyt

[lucid jackal]

Sure but for the rank 1 parses, you would assume somebody gets 0 downtime on the boss right

[maiden oar]

but i guess theres 1 patchwerk guy this tier

[lucid jackal]

It's near perfect play

With perfect luck

Limited mechanics if any

[maiden oar]

yeah in xiv its full uptime almost e very guy is 60s/2m cds minimal variance

[alpine fossil]

There's also ease of execution to consider too. The sim acts "perfectly" (based on the logic it's provided), but humans are more error prone because stress/pressure tends to negatively impact our ability to make decisions.

[maiden oar]

which is soulless but

[lucid jackal]

It's different for sure

[maiden oar]

what im used to

[lucid jackal]

Sims are very useful for evaluating a lot of things. Do not use sims to evaluate how good a spec is

[maiden oar]

oh i assumed 97+ guys are playing close to sim apls

is that not the case?

ok ty

[alpine fossil]

I mean it's not the wrong casts

I mean like they make a bad decision with how to move or someone else does something that fucks up the group in a recoverabLe way

[twilit phoenix]

High parses are also largely due to the strength of your entire group

[alpine fossil]

I didn't realize you're mainly thinking about super high performers tho

[lucid jackal]

Also true

[hazy breach]

The iteration you showed just had a very "unlucky" timing where it ended up needing to refresh rupture right before the 10s window as well as having full cp exactly at the 10s window, its only really the one at 1:22 thats wasted, but it also kinda doesnt matter since we dont do any damage outside of cds anyway

[twilit phoenix]

And kill timers

[warm wyvern]

Guys hows sub performing in high keys 14-15+ ? viable or might be a struggle to find groups ?

[lucid jackal]

Sub is good

[maiden oar]

can u humor me and tell me why this is? i didnt get to do much nerubar since i was giving xiv 1 last chance before quitting

if its a mystery thats ok too

i do mostly get it

[hazy breach]

Like i double checked right now and ye its probably the tier set making it worth, "fixing" it is like a 0.2% gain without new tier and a 0.3% loss with new tier

[maiden oar]

is this bc of killtime?

wow doesnt have rdps righht

[jolly pasture]

first dance feels amazing in keys damn

[lucid jackal]

As somebody who had played this game and interfaced with sims for years. Genuinely no clue

[jolly pasture]

except now we gotta grovel for 6 sec restealth 😐

[tired hound]

r being what here?

[alpine fossil]

Fosho. Like I said, I don't know if it necessarily impacts your throughput that much. Just mentioning that this seems like a reasonably easy way to improve the quality of the logic in the APL

[frigid dragon]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

I don't understand why Sim dps is so different from "st patchwork" damage

[maiden oar]

oh in xiv if u buff ur teammates the dmg u give them is urs

[tired hound]

ahh wow has a few externals yes

[maiden oar]

ive been rank 30 and 97% personal dmg rank 300 and 84% rdps before bc my team sucked in that game

can be big gap

[alpine fossil]

Damn dude you're fast 😂 sorry I didn't see this

Good to know

[hazy breach]

But like, anything outside of cds for sub

Is almost always within 0.5% in sims

Because it just doesnt matter what you do

As you do no damage anyway

[alpine fossil]

Damn that's a super interesting heuristic

Good to know

I spend way too much time thinking about micro-optimizations that COULD be situationally relevant, but that really puts things into perspective

[tired hound]

can see it how it shows in logs overall rankings like this on the far right will count external buffs that are not counted for the caster but for the target, other buffs like Aug go back to the Aug when logs work right 🙂 they're known to be bad

[alpine fossil]

At the end of the day not sucking in CDs is all that really matters LOL

[maiden oar]

i see i see

is the reason wow parses are dependent on group performance just because of killtime then

or bc of aoe pad too

[alpine fossil]

It certainly helps a LOT

[maiden oar]

got it

[dense coyote]

so.... we want to use symbols of death 1 or two seconds after shadow dance in the opener...?

[alpine fossil]

But you probably get more mileage out of ending a fight right after a round of CDs than knocking 30s off your fight time if it's between CDs

probably

[lucid jackal]

But yeah sub is performing quite well and it's damage profile is a very strong tool. It's Sim dps kinda doesn't matter

[maiden oar]

yea thats how other mmo works

just have it die right after 2min window and u big winner

[tired hound]

if your overall fight duration ends right after one of your burst windows you're sitting good, and if it dies right when your CDs are coming up you'll look worse,

[smoky egret]

I'm just enjoying not having trash boss damage in keys lmao

getting to nuke bosses is fun

[maiden oar]

oh yeah but thats different from having a team full of high performers isnt it?

thought you were saying if your guys arent pressing their buttons well you suffer

i see

[tired hound]

longer the fight, more windows to mess up, have variance as well

[maiden oar]

tyty

[maiden oar]

thats kind of funny

[smoky egret]

I'm also just enjoying sub because the damage profile is so flexible

[maiden oar]

wanted to play rogue long term but was worried about getting into pugs since i think if i want to climb to a skill level i was at in old mmo id have to guild hop a ton

[lucid jackal]

Group comp matters a lot for parsing tho. If a boss is heavy aoe, having a shit group that doesn't do damage is insanely advantageous for you. Meanwhile on st boss, having a perfect kill timer for your spec, or just overall an insanely fast kill timer is also advantageous

[maiden oar]

so i just wanna be able to pug heroics early weeks and then go from there

[lucid jackal]

This game is really complicated and ppl try and use sims as a one size fits all solution

[maiden oar]

but if sims arent real and people will invite me so i can farm heroic logs i will frag

ty

[smoky egret]

It can be hard to parse depending on your guild and the fight

[tired hound]

ppl will def invite rogs, no worries there

[smoky egret]

The worst window for sub for kill timings is like, within 30 seconds of our cds coming up yeah? cause that's when we hit the slow roll period

[maiden oar]

going to be guildless until i can leverage heroic logs/io to join a ce guild i think since i wanna raid at a level comparable to the one i did in other game

so just pug guy

[alpine fossil]

I saw that b/c we're casting Shadowstrike as first global in Dance during the opener, but does it ever make sense for Night Elves to delay the start of dance by 1 global casting SMeld+Shadowstrike -> Backstab so you can start Dance with a finisher instead?

[maiden oar]

since if i improve quickly id have to guild hop a ton and i think thats very rude

and i wanna be nice...

[graceful rock]

Is leaving guilds ever nice?

[maiden oar]

no thats why i want to stay in the first one i join til end of patch at least

[alpine fossil]

You can absolutely kill bosses just fine without a guild but the first month of their tier will be hell in pugs

[maiden oar]

so i cant join one early if my prog/parsing exp from other mmo is even remotely transferrable probably

[tired hound]

finding a decent AOTC guild not terrible, if you're worried about leaving can also just say you're only here for this tier. Pugs will be an experience don't be afraid to abandon ship if you get in and can tell it's not happening

[maiden oar]

or id have to screw them over and leave mid patch (rude)

[alpine fossil]

Midpatch is not rude in this game

[smoky egret]

I wish you luck. I could join a CE guild if I wanted, but I enjoy the journey of mythic with a guild of longtime friends than just trying to join a new guild. Sometimes we have a great tier, sometimes not.

[maiden oar]

i see

[alpine fossil]

Mid prog is kinda rude

But like

I think you have to separate "being considerate" from "stuff that will make the other person upset"

Their raid lead will be annoyed no matter what

[maiden oar]

yeah im used to clearing ffs mythic equiv in the first month or so and while i dont expect to join a hof guild or anything if my skills transfer id like to get into a late ce guild for my first tier if i can

[bleak night]

take any etiquette you learned in ffxiv and throw it out the window

[alpine fossil]

You just have to avoid situations where they give you a bunch of gear b/c you're popping off, then suddenly dip

[bleak night]

wow players are savages

[maiden oar]

so i dont wanna backstab some aotc dad guild

[bleak night]

dont even o/ at the start of dungeons

[maiden oar]

after farming logs with them

id feel so bad

[maiden oar]

i type hi

[tranquil garden]

Why not just finish aotc with them then

You might even find that's all you really need who knows

[alpine fossil]

You'd have to in order to farm logs anyway

[dense coyote]

aotc dad guild lol

[maiden oar]

was gonna pug it

[alpine fossil]

Like once they've killed it 4 times then who fuckin cares

[maiden oar]

and then keep pugging it to farm logs

[alpine fossil]

If you're as good as you say then they will be mostly bummed you didn't stick around to keep obliterating the bosses

Lmao

It's super reasonable

[maiden oar]

hehe idk if im as good as wow

[alpine fossil]

I feel you

[maiden oar]

my main worry is that ill improve fast enough to be miserable if i join a guild too early

and feel like i have to leave

if the skills do transfer

so i wanna delay joining until i can find a place i can stay for the tier with people close to whatever my skill level is

so best probably to have rapid improvement section happen in pugs i think

[dense coyote]

are you frieza from dragon ball z ?

[maiden oar]

no i just want to be kind

[tired hound]

improvement sessions tend to work best in consistent groups who wont kick you cause you're 'improving'

[alpine fossil]

I tried FFXIV for the first time by doing blind prog of the first savage tier for the expac on a character that someone leveled for me. IMO wow rotations can be much more complicated since there's so much proc RNG to play around, (and there's a bunch of builds per class instead of EXACTLY 1 way to play like in FF), but FF punishes your fuckups way harder

[graceful rock]

I don’t think it’s being “rude” to get aotc done with a guild (you don’t even have to join the guild probably) and then bouncing after a few weeks

[alpine fossil]

I might be biased having only played Ninja and Viper tho, so take it with a grain of salt

[maiden oar]

oh its true in full uptime

[steel zinc]

I know a source with a spreadsheet that can predict damage output of all classes. Also max tierlist is be all end all /s

[alpine fossil]

Ninja is fucking brutal to play while you're learning how the game works too

[maiden oar]

in ults you do stuff like press doton during downtime mechanics to farm extra ticks and desync trick and mug

[alpine fossil]

I literally didn't know Hyosho was a thing until the 3rd boss

[maiden oar]

and kassatsu outside of buffs for extra uses

but in full uptime its so on rails and boring

yeah

[alpine fossil]

Nor did I know you can't move while you use that ability that gives you 3 ninjutsu

Holy fuck that was such a tilter

[maiden oar]

u can move now they ruined it

[maiden oar]

i see

[alpine fossil]

Mmmmm idk if I'd use the same term to describe that change LOL

[maiden oar]

i like friction

they sand off all friction in that game its annoyi g

[steel zinc]

What exactly sorry?

[maiden oar]

but yeah nin in ult youd trick outside of mug sometimes and kassatsu outside of trick sometimes and stand in dangerous spots to dodge untargetable boss mechs to put doton to avoid mudra overcap / extra doton ticks when boss comes back and make sure you enter downtime with 50 ninki for bunshin etc

but no interesting stuff @ all in full uptime

boring game

[alpine fossil]

Every time I double pressed a mudra I wanted to KMS. There is literally no reason why they allow you to do it other than giving you a way to catastrophically fuck up. Unless they add ninjutsu for mudra combos with repetitions it should straight up lock you out of it

Really weird way to add difficulty if it's intended

[maiden oar]

yeah its annoying

[alpine fossil]

Like fuck old people or people with disabilities amirite

They don't get to press Hyosho

Or something

[maiden oar]

use xivalexander if you still play helps fix netcode/queueing

[alpine fossil]

(not my real opinion pls understand I'm memeing on Square Enix)

[maiden oar]

but i recommend quitting that game job design / fight design so bad

[young mountain]

Does sub need to track find weakness or nah

[maiden oar]

anyway ty for advice btw

[steel zinc]

m+ first dance

[maiden oar]

i talk about wow now

[vestal escarp]

Nah bro wake of ashes divine strom and then what glows on my buttons

[alpine fossil]

Definitely only gonna play again if the same group runs it back for another tier, but I'll try to keep that in mind

Also just my 2 cents but Viper is the closest you can get to playing Outlaw in FFXIV

[bleak night]

viper has a lot of ogcds

so its a lot faster than some other jobs

[maiden oar]

outlaw feels a ton more dynamic

[alpine fossil]

It's mainly the rhythm and style IMO

[maiden oar]

cant cheat uptime like vpr w/ uncoiled as much but is more fun overall by a ton

much more interesting class

[alpine fossil]

You are jamming keys fast, punished for picking the wrong builder/spender, have slightly flexible burst windows that change up your casts slightly, and a way to cast abilities at range that can ruin your damage if mismanaged

It's super fucking similar

[steel zinc]

nice job adding that command. Its only the superchargers right or does it take rotten into account?

[alpine fossil]

All it does is give you 2 stacks of the supercharged buff AFAIK

It's not like it's casting the spell, just manually giving yourself those "buffs"

If there's something going on w/ the Rotten you're tryna game with pre-pull shenanigans you'll need to add another line for it AFAIK

Oh I'm an idiot, I forgot how the talent works now

[young mountain]

So I take it sub doesnt need to track find weakness?

[lucid jackal]

Nop

[maiden oar]

also once i am spamming heroic do people in here do log reviews sometimes

if copying better players isnt enough to become strong

[alpine fossil]

Yeah you make a thread in this channel

[maiden oar]

ok ty

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[autumn glade]

if it's not obvious which one is you in the log, try to note char name and whatnot lol

[maiden oar]

oh also 1 more thing - do people usually swap specs on a fight by fight basis or is 1 spec usually tuned so well relative to the other 2 that you play it on like 6/8 or more fights

i like all 3 so i dont mind

[dense coyote]

yes they do

[maiden oar]

ok ty

[bleak night]

well it kind of depends on the tier

but at high end yeah its good to be flexible

some tiers one spec is just bis for everything

[dense coyote]

as long as you have the gear and your damage outweighs the damage on your other spec then yes do it

[autumn glade]

Rash was a good assa fight cause of how long you spend in execute, considering boss starts at 60%

[lean torrent]

hey, im new to sub and i dont like flagelletion talent is it a must have? and if not what talent should i consider taking?

[maiden oar]

ty

[autumn glade]

what don't you like about it, you're gonna lower your burst which is kind of the whole point

[alpine fossil]

@maiden oar PMed you a few tips/recommendations for how to make the transition from XIV easier.

[maiden oar]

ty

appreciated

[dense coyote]

i feel like sometimes i burst only up to like 4.5 mil and some pulls i cna burst up to 5.3 mil.... I must be doing somethign wrong on those 4.5 mil pulls

on target dummies

[dense geode]

sounds like you didnt crit

[autumn glade]

yeah lol, not critting evis or sectec

[dense coyote]

also im doing well on dummies but i feel liek in a actual dungeon im going to be fumbling and after the first but pull not know what to do afte the initial opener....

[tranquil garden]

that's called experience, or lack thereof

[dense coyote]

I feel liek this spec is harder than outlaw for me

[tranquil garden]

once you get some you'll stop fumbling

[dense coyote]

fair enough lol

im confused about how supercharged works

i know it super charges a finishing move so... lets say you are already at 7 combo points and you haev a supercharge

will it make it hit as if it was a 9 combo point finisher ?

makes no sense to me

[weary kite]

makes perfect sense and yes it scales to 9 so it does way more damage.

[dense coyote]

oh wow

so.... does my second secret technique need to be super charged?

or shoudl it be ?

[weary kite]

they both should be.

[autumn glade]

you should always be supercharging it

[dense coyote]

OHH im using my cold blood on my first secret technique maybe thats why too

[weary kite]

yeah have a bind for solo st so you can use cb on second st

[lone halo]

hows the sub nerf. big deal ?

[autumn glade]

read pins

[molten citrus]

its pretty mandatory unless you're just doing casual open world content etc

[slate hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dense coyote]

oh the second seqtec does not get supercharged ? just the first one ?

[autumn glade]

both get super charged, for min-max you cold blood second

[hazy breach]

All of your sectechs should be supercharged

[dense coyote]

thast strange when im doing my opener

[autumn glade]

Not sure if you're misunderstanding what the two things are

[dense coyote]

my first one is alwasy super charged but the second one never is 😦

[hazy breach]

Ye because youre using symbols too early

[autumn glade]

You're probably popping symbols before sectec cd is low enough

[lone halo]

im torn on Ass or Sub. Anyone have an opinion they want to share

[dense coyote]

ohhhhhhhhhh

[hazy breach]

You should be using it when sectech has 10 seconds or lower left

[autumn glade]

so you're spending the supercharged points

That's why you don't macro dance and symbols together

[dense coyote]

you solved the mystery scooby

haha yeah it makes sense now

hmm.... so i need to cd track seqtec then so aka i need to put it in my periphrial vision someplace

[hazy breach]

Well flagellation is a key subtlety spell, if you skip it youre gonna lose out on tons of damage

[dense coyote]

im going to record my screen with my geforce software and analyze where im going wrong

[spark tusk]

It's a must have for how subtlety functions in order to do any amount of respectable damage. I, too, don't like the spell personally but it is pretty significant to our damage.

[solemn lance]

A torn ass sounds pretty painful

[bleak night]

not if you're a sub

[thorny zodiac]

can i macro SD and symbols?

[autumn glade]

You can but, you shouldn't if you're looking to play properly

[dense coyote]

is that the most common question asked in here ?

lol

[hazy breach]

Along with cold blood yes

[dense coyote]

i mean im super new but

i just noticed that trend

my few hours being here lol

[autumn glade]

Yeah, gets asked a lot

[balmy thorn]

What's the thoughts on Deathstalker for m+ and raid? I am used to playing it for Sin and was wondering if it's similar to Trickster in terms of dps

[hazy breach]

Feels terrible to play, not too far behind numerically

[balmy thorn]

How does it feel terrible to play? I am used to the playstyle of it, is it just bad for sub?

[bleak night]

it does not play the same for sub as it does for sin

[hazy breach]

Trickster amps the flow of sub

Deathstalker gets in the way

[dense coyote]

what is that addon that shows you what abilities you are pushing ?

[hazy breach]

Details has it, its called streamer something

[bleak night]

i think detaisl can do it

rip too late

[autumn glade]

There's a couple different ways, details has the streamer action plugin, there's TrufiGCD as a separate addon and there's WeakAuras

I use a WeakAura one cause it shows CPs spent on finishers, personally

[dense coyote]

i just want to record my screen with that going at the same time

to see where im messing up

[hazy breach]

On ST its not too bad, its mostly DN needing to be used immediately so you often end up needing to delay sectech in a way that doesnt feel that great. Oh and it also lacks the extra combo points and sectech cooldown reduction trickster has so sectech naturally gets delayed

[bleak night]

typing /streamer should open the menu for the details version

can look and see if it works for what you want

[hazy breach]

But on aoe its got some terrible stuff if you want to play it fully optimal

[dense coyote]

ah yes thank you !

[hazy breach]

Since Darkest night is absolutely terrible on large aoe pulls the best way to play those is to tab-target to another target and strike to reset your mark to 3 instead of hitting 0 and proccing darkest night

[balmy thorn]

Hmm that does sound poopy

[hazy breach]

Like on assa everything deathstalker does cleaves with spatter

On sub it just hits a single target

So it feels way worse

[balmy thorn]

So for raids does it pull ahead then?

[hazy breach]

No, thankfully deathstalker is worse everywhere right now

Also the fact that BP is almost doing the same amount of damage eviscerate does as deathstalker is very silly

[balmy thorn]

Yea that's weird

I'm not sure how I feel about Nimble tbh. I like that it's basically free aoe splash without any extra buttons, however it does seem like shuriken storm and BP are just kinda dead unless you're at 8+ targets

Like it makes Sub just feel like Outlaw which is a little strange ngl

[hazy breach]

#outlaw OG blade flurry
#assassination Green blade flurry
#subtlety Purple blade flurry

[balmy thorn]

purple does = win I suppose

[formal pollen]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Rogues just got the short end of the stick in terms of hero talents, like theyre all clearly designed for one spec and then theres a second spec shoehorned into it

Assa doesnt like fatebound, outlaw doesnt like trickster and sub doesnt like deathstalker.

[shrewd lantern]

Honestly if mark applied from anything but ambush for sin

it'd be pretty peak design

[bleak night]

95% of the time it being on ambush feels fine

[viscid garnet]

soooooo we looking at sub for s2? i enjoy both sin and sub 🤔

[bleak night]

but then sometimes it disappears on phase or you have to play weird for intermission

[shrewd lantern]

I love standing there finger in ass on queen intermissions

[bleak night]

and it feels like ass

[shrewd lantern]

because i need darkest night to hit add with

[bleak night]

yeah those are the times where it feels like shit

[unique anvil]

i couldnt even be bothered playing assa on court of queen cuz of mark

[shrewd lantern]

it was fine on court

just a bit awkward when you had to rush before intermissions

[hazy breach]

Tbf i think trickster sub right now is pretty close to peak design. Its got some rough edges but its the most fun iteration of sub ive played since DFA

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah besides i dont have a transmitter

i need to check what auras i need to track for tww changes to sub

because i havent tinkered with mine since df

[dense coyote]

so it seems from when i blow my cd's and use that first seqtec.... there is roughly 11 globals between then and when i use the second symbols to line up for a super charged cold blood powered seqtec .... im trying to do this becasue for some odd reason i have a hard time keeping track of shadow dance and friggin .... seqteq to use symbols at the same time i have issues keepign track of both of those

[hazy breach]

Dont need to track that much. I have less stuff to track as sub than as assa for example

[shrewd lantern]

I mean whats even important to track for trickster

[hazy breach]

You can use symbols before that eviscerate

[shrewd lantern]

i think for assa i just added a ctw, dn, and mark tracker for tww

[shell willow]

flawless form maybe it

[hazy breach]

You dont need sectech to be ready, you just need it to have 10s or less ready

[shell willow]

fazed for coup

[dense coyote]

yeah ? i think thats a good idea becasue wont i have two super charges? so esssentially one on eviscerate then one on the next seqtec?

[hazy breach]

I track escalating blades and have small icons to show me if flawless or fazed is not up

[autumn glade]

you dont need two super charged points, it consumes one per finisher

[hazy breach]

Or well, my fazed wa only activates when i have coup ready

[autumn glade]

you pop symbols at 10s or less on sectech cause you supercharge an evis and have sectec back up to use second charged cp

[hazy breach]

Since thats the only time you care about fazed

[dense coyote]

got it !!1

thank you

yeah thats the spot i kept messing up at... lol

theres jsut so much going on at the point haha

[shell willow]

once you get the rhythm down it feels really good

[dense coyote]

I cant wait ... thats how i am with outlaw i cna do it without looking barely lol

i want to get liek that with sub

[shrewd lantern]

fazed is up for 10s every 20 isnt it

[hazy breach]

Way more than that

[shell willow]

yeah but you really dont want to to coup without fazed

[crystal kraken]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[balmy thorn]

2m on a dummy, I'm pretty sure fazed is just up perma

I never even think about it lol

[hazy breach]

Yes almost perma

But its really bad to coup when its not up

As you wont get the 15% finisher damage buff

[south sedge]

do we ever not send coup in aoe?

[shrewd lantern]

Did you just custom make a wa to flash faze missing

if coup is up

[hazy breach]

nop, just send

[hazy breach]

Yep

[shrewd lantern]

Hmm how does one make that

[dense coyote]

ah i got it so like this

[hazy breach]

DMed mine to you if you want, but its also fairly easy to do if you want to try for yourself

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah i try avoiding afenar packs since i feel they have too much info i dont need

[dense coyote]

so its typically 9 globals in after blowing cd's to do the next symbols

[hazy breach]

Ye im not using any afenar, im just rawdogging it with my own WAs

[shrewd lantern]

i should probably update my sod wa to actually reflect having 3 charges

think mine still works as if symbols only had 1 charge

[crystal kraken]

why do we save CB for the 2nd sectec?

[balmy thorn]

Probably for danse macabre stacks?

[hazy breach]

Flawless form and flagellation stacks are higher

So it does more damage

[solemn creek]

Think u can hit me with that weak aura too plz 🙂

[lime wigeon]

I always used it on the first. 🤣

[crystal kraken]

im seriously having trouble pressing all these oGCD's on sub ;P getting old

[shrewd lantern]

If you crit every secret tech natty

You don't need coldblood

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/kronk-point-debate-argument-angel-gif-17274775

[crystal kraken]

just crit 100% of the time

[shrewd lantern]

Well when we had mantle

was also when sub burst was

big big bonk

[crystal kraken]

DfA

[dense coyote]

nevermind

[valid vault]

is sub rogue the strongest rogue spec on live right now or does sub need new tier before it becomes stronger than assa?

[slate marlin]

its post season and 3 days left, does it matter?

[valid vault]

i'm just trying to see if im severely under performing or if its just weaker currently

[shrewd lantern]

Sub has a bigger learning curve.

[dense coyote]

you arent wrong lol

[shrewd lantern]

always has tbh

Or rather its more sin is dumb easy

[dense coyote]

I feel that way to be honest

question so ..... what is causing me to be able to get double max CP eviscerates?

[hazy breach]

Shadowcraft

[dense coyote]

is it like... refunding me all my CP's back ?

[hazy breach]

Yesnt. Read shadowcraft (talent) and shadow techniques (passive)

[dense coyote]

ok

got it okay .... so based off if i get max cp's back from shadowcraft ..... canit somtimes be symbols, eviscerate,shadow strike, cold blood ,seqtec instead of symbols, shadow strike, eviscerate, cold blood, seqtec?

[autumn glade]

Think you're trying to overcook every global instead of understanding the fundamental priority list

[dense coyote]

well not really becasue ..... i feel like wont the rotation be different based off how many combo points are stored from shadow techniques?

or am i just looking at it wrong idk

[autumn glade]

Yes, all it does is cut out a builder and slides the finisher up though, which is just dynamically adjusting

[dense coyote]

or cant it change things

[dense coyote]

ok

[tepid trellis]

think of it like Ace procs from outlaw

when it happens it happens

and you just use a finisher instead of a builder

[dense coyote]

ah okay

good way to put it

[autumn glade]

You'll have pulls where you have more CPs stored than others so, just adjusting to it and understanding to use a finisher instead of wasting a gcd on a builder when you're at full

[dense coyote]

got it

yeah thats going to probs be the hardest part for me

to get that down

they just poof out of nowhere

which i know is a good thing lol

[autumn glade]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[autumn glade]

Use that utility wa there

[tribal blade]

might want to get a WA to track sht if you don't already

[autumn glade]

That'll help

[tribal blade]

helps to visually see how many you have

[dense coyote]

oh wow ok !

thank you

[autumn glade]

If you're a visual person yeah, you can just track stored CPs, if you like audio cues - that WA makes a sound when you use a finisher and procs shadowcraft refund

[dense coyote]

lets try it out 😄

[leaden prairie]

i even linked ace sound if you want to feel like at home

[dense coyote]

ill try out both

[leaden prairie]

[dense coyote]

and see which i like

[dense coyote]

wait i can make it that same sound ?

😄

[leaden prairie]

ye lol

[dense coyote]

the little ching noise haha

[leaden prairie]

i use that sound on mine

[autumn glade]

zac already has it the same haha

[dense coyote]

I love that little ching

[leaden prairie]

its explained here how you can import the sound

[tribal blade]

https://wago.io/8cvRKxXeX

iirc i'm using this

[dense coyote]

life is good

[tribal blade]

just a literal number

[dense coyote]

ill try that out too 🙂

[tribal blade]

number 7 or higher = you're getting a refund in symbols

[dense coyote]

i think the outlaw rogue ching will do me good but if i dont liek it ill do that .... its just impulse in my head when i hear that noise to press the button again ahha

odd i hear like a little gun noise and the ace sound both in that weakaura....

[leaden prairie]

well the ace sounds has a gun in it

its a mix of a random azerite sound

[dense coyote]

never noticed that

[leaden prairie]

that you can hear when you eat the orbs flying btw

[dense coyote]

i usually just hear the azurite sound

[leaden prairie]

the ones that gives crest

but there is also a gun

[dense coyote]

hold on let me see if i can twweak the weakaura

where do i go to see the sound effect being used?

[leaden prairie]

conditions or actions i dont remember which one i sued

[gloomy slate]

Why are a bunch of outlaw 1 tricks in here all of a sudden

[dense coyote]

we all like pushing buttons

i found where the shotgun noise is in there but not that azurite noise is

[glossy turtle]

is it a big dps gain, using cb in the second dance, when popping cds?

[tepid trellis]

1% or so

[dense coyote]

lots of racoons in here

[bleak night]

[dense coyote]

im consistently doing 4.7 - 5.3 mil ont he opener

[glossy turtle]

like the opener would do 1% more dmg if I did cb second?

[dense coyote]

each pull i think i basically got it down now.... the opener at least

[tacit aspen]

congrats cuz thats like 60% of the fucking spec

the two aspects of sub rogue are:

• the opener
  *not fucking up too hard so you can do the opener again

[glossy turtle]

feel like sub is pretty chill ngl

[tepid trellis]

no 1% over the cause of a 5min sim

[glossy turtle]

st I assume? 🙂

[lucid jackal]

sub is ez af

[tepid trellis]

yes, its gonna be slightly higher on AoE

[lucid jackal]

easiest rogue spec for sure

[glossy turtle]

yeah was curious abt the value of doing it in aoe

[tepid trellis]

how to start a spec war any % speedrun

[lucid jackal]

People struggle with the truth ik

[tepid trellis]

love when the "my spec is harder" conversations start

like anything in this 20 year old game is hard to play

[glossy turtle]

you started the speedrun?

[dense coyote]

I know ret paladin is the hardest

[glossy turtle]

are there sims for it? i dont personally know how to script rotation stuff in sims. a little too advanced for me

[tepid trellis]

there was, when it was found out

[dense coyote]

😝

[tepid trellis]

now its just in the apl to do it this way

and im waay to lazy to go in and remove it

[glossy turtle]

haha all good homie np

but ill be doing that for now ig.

[slate marlin]

We send dances asap rather than lining them up with sod during flag right?

[tepid trellis]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[dense coyote]

is this to get the sound available on weakauras ? also how do i find the Ace_proc.ogg sound?

[viscid garnet]

Sub beating sin on meta mythic plus atm?

[swift tinsel]

sub is gonna beat everyone

(meta won't be figured out for months)

[glossy turtle]

sub 8 mil overall in m+

(trust me bro)

[tribal blade]

the absolute true meta won't be defined until the .5 patch

[swift tinsel]

imma be playing sub and totemic enh either way, throwing out sunders all over is super fun

[quick swan]

Enh is peak WoW

[bleak night]

there are a lot of specs i want to try this season as alts

enhance and feral are the top two i think

[tribal blade]

my server's down

WOOOO

[swift tinsel]

I'm just playing one alt and its most likely gonna be enh so I can heal too as resto

[bleak night]

yeah im only doing one alt too, im leaning towards druid just bc then i can do whatever the hell i want

maining druid is actually op as hell

if i could actually see my transmogs i might consider it

[dense coyote]

I fixed that weakaura for ace up sleeve

so now it actually has the azerite sound in it now .....

like its supposed to

I had to look through a lot of samples to find it lmao

on wowhead

[solid yacht]

rogue main hunter alt

dps only babyyyyyyy

[random comet]

I always alt ele/resto, very easy vibes

[quick swan]

Warrior alt for me 👌🏻

[viscid garnet]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[fathom pendant]

sub is broken? my shadows blade hit like a truck

[tribal blade]

they fixed the bug where sectec wasn't benefiting from blades

[fathom pendant]

oh wow great, its doing amazing dps now

[tribal blade]

yah it working with our hardest hitting ability is pretty fire 😉

[tepid trellis]

too bad our tierset doesent

[tribal blade]

one day they'll rework sectec

so it's not such a pile of bugs

[swift tinsel]

Akaari needs to retire

[warm folio]

hi, im building my own weakaura for sub. is rotten stacks worth tracking?

[tepid trellis]

not really

as long at the dance rotation is done right on AoE it plays itself

[tribal blade]

do you get less xp in dungeons if there's 80s in the group while you're leveling

[tepid trellis]

that used to be the case not sure if thats still a thing

[tribal blade]

yeah i have the exact same thought

[tepid trellis]

i used to sell leveling boosts back in bfa alot

[molten citrus]

Don’t think so no

Maybe for legacy content or something

[tribal blade]

gotcha

[tepid trellis]

just a 110 DH soloing freehold

[vagrant sinew]

rice farmer

[hazy light]

I am a returning player, alt-ing a rogue this season. How does Sub compared to Assassination in how easy it is to play?

[obtuse dirge]

when in dance, is SS the builder no mater mob count?

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[rocky ocean]

it was harder for me to learn sub than assa. But when I learned both, they feel on the same level

[hoary lotus]

im confused

do I not hit bp in aoe if I'm in dance

and there are less than 7 targets

[worthy pulsar]

they fixed the bug with blades affecting sectec now? so we send blades before 1st sectec in opener?

[hazy light]

Thanks, I have always had an affinity for assa, I just seem to get it.

[molten citrus]

doesn't matter, as long as the clones are in the blades

which if you blades right after sec tech, the clones will be in it

[molten citrus]

as trickster, nop

[worthy pulsar]

ah right thanks. clones will be like 1s after?

[molten citrus]

iirc 1s and 1.3s yeah

[hoary lotus]

so if fazed is on the main target my evis/backstab/shadowstrikes hit 8 targets

thats why I don't bp

got it.

thx

[rain kernel]

i think its flawless form

[hoary lotus]

it is, but fazed is a requirement for that

(:

[frozen lintel]

Cant be fazed on more Targets than only 1?

[tepid trellis]

It can yes

Sectech applies it to everything it hits

[rocky ocean]

wtf is this coup sfx

[remote knot]

wait, DON'T macro Cold Blood and Secret Techniques?

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[fallow drift]

sub better than assa for season 2 start?

[tepid trellis]

mayhaps

[paper iron]

Blu learning that sub does bladeflurry

[crystal kraken]

is there a stop macro i can do so i dont accidently press symbols twice?

[teal prawn]

!symbols

Hmm

[clever delta]

Assa better than sub for season2 start?

[deft silo]

Assa better than sub for season2 start?

[vernal junco]

Don't, unless you want to configure two keys: one for cb+sec and one for sec only.

[remote knot]

not trying to argue, so please don't take it that way, trying to learn. why would I need to cast Secret Technique, without CB, if CB has a lower cooldown?

won't CB always be available?

[vernal junco]

cause in every round of flag+sb burst, you’ll want to use cb on the second sec

[crystal kraken]

also sectec gets lower cd by using finishers

[remote knot]

ah, that was my next question, cause I was like "but ST has a 1 minute cooldown?"

[crystal kraken]

its like 20-25 in practice

[remote knot]

so Shadowblades is 16 seconds. if I am playing correctly, I should be able to use 2 STs in that time?

[vernal junco]

yes

[crystal kraken]

yeah, full burst its lower, i think 2nd one comes up like 13-15sec in combat

[spark tusk]

second sectec should be 1st or second finisher during your second dance in burst

and it should land in the last gcd of transmitter

that's the goal, anyways

[molten citrus]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[tepid trellis]

its 2-3 finisher if you have it up by first, you need to go by loto tickets

[remote knot]

oh I see. the tooltip says that ST cooldown is reduced by 1 second for every combo point you spend. I thought that was only for Combo Points spend by ST, not ALL combo points.

[tepid trellis]

thats an insta procced Coup basically

[spark tusk]

oh I'm just used to always having tfd

[tepid trellis]

nah same as, shadow dance just 0.5sec instead

[astral arch]

They are nerfing SUB again...

[tepid trellis]

thus was a sad friday indeed

[alpine wraith]

the sad thing is they nerf burst and prop up baseline now we just got double nerfed but the % of total nerf is not high

[rocky ocean]

I'm gonna wait for the quadruple nerf

[spark tusk]

It doesn’t matter because this season brings the biggest sub buff of all: ||replacing transmitter||

[alpine wraith]

quite unlikely but they may buff assa again

[remote knot]

so i take it that macroing Symbols of Death to Shadow Dance is also a bad idea huh

[alpine wraith]

yes

[rain stratus]

Do you not always want symbols with dance tho?

[crystal kraken]

2nd symbols with the 2nd dance would make you lose supercharger for 2nd sectec

is my understanding

[alpine wraith]

no on cds the second dance is not with symbols

you use symbols afterwards to empower sec tech

[rain stratus]

So you basically hold symbols for 2nd sec tech in CD's?

[crystal kraken]

just always have supercharger ready for a sectec

[rain stratus]

Do we ever send full naked SecTechs?

[viscid garnet]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[tribal blade]

you want to press your 2nd dance in cds right after the 1st to get both in blades

[astral arch]

Is that even a bis Item for rouge ?

[tribal blade]

but you don't want to press symbols along with the 2nd dance until sectec has 10 or less seconds remaining on cd

[rain stratus]

Yea, but that also means you hold Symbols for SecTech and dont want to macro it to dance for exaple right

[tribal blade]

yes exactly

[keen dome]

Preach 🙏

Can't wait to be rid of it next week.

[rain stratus]

But do you ever send a completely naked SecTech tho? Otherwise you could macro symbols to SecTech no?

[tribal blade]

definitely don't macro those 2

you can send naked sectecs

usually before cds are coming back up, but you want to make sure you have enough time to get it off cd

so don't send sectec ~20 secs before cds are back up

in aoe you have more cdr so you can be more aggressive

[rain stratus]

Got it

[tribal blade]

actually sending a naked sectec you prob want a bit more time than 20 secs in pure ST

[ebon tiger]

a lot of you real confident you're getting house of cards next week huh

[keen dome]

It will be mine.

[vernal junco]

[haughty mural]

How

[rain stratus]

By getting a new one? 🙂

[keen dome]

By getting another trinket. Here's my secret.

I only ever got a normal Transmitter.

[rain stratus]

I dont even have one, so HoC on normal is +55k 🙂

[keen dome]

I will take a small damage loss to just swap to HoC because the buff to mental is immense.

[clever delta]

I like that I already have trinket which is even with max out heroic one... and it will take time to get mythic one

[rain stratus]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[clever delta]

It saves crest too so it make you even stronger

[low grotto]

hey guys i have a question 🙂 what do u think is harder to learn ? sub or assa rogue ? im new to rogue

[vernal gulch]

hey sub bros, if we're playing the rotten, why are we also playing cold blood?

[hollow spear]

Aren't you actually supposed to hit it even earlier because of the delay of your shadows?

[hollow spear]

Sub way harder

[hollow spear]

Because cb makes finishers crit

[vernal gulch]

oh i'm stupid i read the rotten wrong, i thought it said 2 finishers 😄 ok ty

[alpine wraith]

that would make it quite better

[rain stratus]

You stack it with rotten due to the 35% dmg increase

[low grotto]

@hollow spear whats the reason why sub is way harder than assa ? 🙂

[alpine wraith]

you have cooldown management and decisions depending of the cooldown reduction you have available

also all cds are kinda used one specific way

if you mix match them you are in a world of trouble

[low grotto]

ok sounds hard 😄

[alpine wraith]

not really when you get used to it it is methodical

if x happens you do y

all the time

[keen dome]

Less hard, more just complex.

Once you learn the rules of the spec, the why of it, it's pretty simple.

[hollow spear]

If you haven't played either and want to play it first thing when the raid hits

Play sin

[lone halo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

If you have time to do what Hacha and iGestalt say (figuring out rules and timings, which takes quite a while), play whatever feels best for you

[keen dome]

Sub is a lot of practice and getting comfy with the buttons.

[viscid urchin]

hey im sorry if this is obvious, but does a coup de grace with a supercharged combo point behave as though it consumed 13 combo points?

[hollow spear]

It's your actual cp + your supercharged cp + 5 cp

[viscid urchin]

ok got it

thanks!

[vale pine]

subtlety is about learning the details, it gets a lot more natural once you learned everything

[hollow spear]

And when you're done with learning the basics, you can come back and ask fuu what button to press during which moon phase at certain air pressure and humidity levels.

[viscid urchin]

beautiful

[vale pine]

haha exactly, did not think my over the top example would stuck with people ^^

[hollow spear]

You were on point

[viscid urchin]

Sub has changed a bit since I played it back in SL

[keen dome]

We had a big rework in 10.2

[hollow spear]

Even though I still sometimes come up with weird scenarios myself. Really need to learn how to do advanced sims

[keen dome]

And also 10.0 I guess.

And then another smaller one kinda in 11.0.5

[viscid urchin]

they kept all the abilities I didnt like from shadowlands

and gave bone spikes to assass

[vale pine]

sub changed a lot since SL

[alpine wraith]

[viscid urchin]

i liked sepsis D:

[keen dome]

Flagellation is gooder now though.

Mastery

[alpine wraith]

i have to remember to save er and sepsis icons before they delete them from RH

[dense mountain]

kinda specific, but if i only ever press cold blood for my 2nd sectec in SB is it a big deal if i miss a coldblood during one of my smaller dance windows?

[hollow spear]

Watch them change flagellation to haste

[hollow spear]

It's better to not press it in between than messing it up for your big burst windows

[keen dome]

[vale pine]

no

[hollow spear]

I wonder how much of a gain incorporating the "in between cb" actually is vs the potentially big loss of delaying your flag window by a couple of seconds everytime

Probably not more than 0.2 or 0.3%

[dense mountain]

yeah thats basically what im trying to figure out,

[honest rivet]

hi i have a questinon regarding a macro on the wowhead guide it says we can use Shadow Dance and shadowstrike together but if u use the macro it just says im not stealthed. the macro is
#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadowstrike

[dense mountain]

like i dont want missing a small cold blood cast in between cds to delay my SB window

so im thinking of skipping cb outside of shadow blades

[tribal blade]

that's fine to do

only using CB during flag+blades works

[hollow spear]

Yeah especially during hectic fights

[vale pine]

the sim does not do the "in between" cb, it is too precise

[hollow spear]

Yeah, that was less of a "someone sim this pls" than a "what does feelycraft say about this"

[tribal blade]

if you're closely watching CB's cd you can literally just press it as it comes up and you crit with whatever your next global is

but that's so minor not worth the headache

[quick swan]

Anyone able to help me pinpoint some weaknesses in my logs?

[tribal blade]

i think for next expac they should just move CB to the sub tree, possibly rework it slightly too

[dense mountain]

also kind of specific, but if i have coup ready going into Shadowblades. should i send the coup or the sec tech as first finisher?

[keen dome]

Bake it into SecTec. During dance, SecTec has 100% crit. blammo.

It'd make it a little less awkward, a bit stronger, but also fundamentally be where we are now with 1 less button and a more precise focus on how Sub plays.

[karmic verge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rugged condor]

Yeah sub would catch a nerf within a week if this happened LOL

[keen dome]

You could go the other way, I guess, and bake it into Dance to make the first finisher cast in Dance have 100% crit which could be interesting?

[rugged condor]

That would be sick tho

[vale pine]

goblins told me this is safe

[rain stratus]

In AoE scenarios, do you only spread FW when you have 7+ targets for BP spam? Or do you also to it for normal rotation in AoE

[vale pine]

only 7+

if you mean the storm in dance

[alpine pollen]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[vale pine]

you will use storm outside of dance

so find weakness will spread during that

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vestal escarp]

Gm doomblades

[quick swan]

!log

[rain stratus]

Right so the storm in dance for FW is only relevant if there is 7+ targets and you BP spam, thanks

[swift crest]

how come we dont take elusivness in m+

in the wowhead builds anyway

[alpine wraith]

it is objectively better

but most people prefer a get out of jail free card

[swift crest]

feelin abit squishy without it

[alpine wraith]

i quite like it

[honest saddle]

lets say on avereage I hit my keys 4x per second

does this mean my ms que window needs to be at least .251

to not have delay inbetween my presses

[swift crest]

iv got mine at 220

[honest saddle]

I think mine is at 150 or 200

and it feels good

but it you dont press fast enough, I think it could cause small delays

unless, it just uses the key you pressed before

if you dont hit under the 150

if it does that, then its good

[swift crest]

yea to low is worse than to high i think

default is 400

[honest saddle]

yeah 400 is bad

cant do that with combo refreshes

[warm marlin]

as far as I know, if your spellqueuewindow is 251, then it will ignore key presses until 251ms of your gcd is remaining and then will continually update your queued spell with whatever you most recently pressed

[honest saddle]

yeah, mine being too low might be causing very small gcd misses

if I dont press fast enough

[stiff stirrup]

Time to remove/rework find weakness

[muted plaza]

Do i always use sod before sectech, even if i already sod running, for the extra dmg from sc?

[honest saddle]

yes

but that shouldnt really happen

I am trying to think where that happens

[alpine wraith]

yes SoD has pandemic

so using it when it has like 3 secs or so is fine

[honest saddle]

assuming pandemic, that happens during your second dance tech

but thats the only place I think

[muted plaza]

alrighty, thanks

[swift crest]

it can go pretty deep, keyboard switch type, ram, system latency

[honest saddle]

I just did a test and press 340-350 keys per minute during rotation

or 5.6 per second

so 200 ms should be ok

[swift crest]

unstable fps can cause input changes too

[muted plaza]

Another question can i use mouseover and stance in one macro?
I am trying something like this, but it doesnt work

#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover,harm,nodead][] [stance:0] Kidney Shot:Cheap Shot

[honest saddle]

is this true:
There are no negative effects to a higher spell queue window, as the abilities used inside the window can replace each other. Only the last one (that was transmitted in time to the server) is executed.

it doesn't feel true.

[vernal junco]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fathom gazelle]

does the raidbots api has the recent nerf?

[worthy axle]

Is it mandatory to start with crafting weapon with Darkmoon Sigil: Ascension ?

[alpine wraith]

i cant go to your house and force you

but it is recommended

[worthy axle]

No need to come in my house hacha :p

Ya i remember in s1 start was good start

[alpine wraith]

embellish are not as big but if you high ilvl on your off pieces you can change to blessed weapon grip

[hollow spear]

don't sell yourself short

people should be afraid that you might

[worthy axle]

hmm i guess i will sim when time has come

[alpine wraith]

basically is you craft asdance as soon as you can if you already have a s1 gilded item with writhing patch

then as the week comes and next one if you get a high enough items in all patch places wrist/belt/boots/off tier piece you may change to weapon grip

until next spark

[sick jackal]

did we want depths or radiant power as sub?

[worthy axle]

hmmm yea prob or you can go 2x Elemental

[alpine wraith]

dephts for st

radiant everywhere else

[sick jackal]

thanks

[sage grail]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[hazy breach]

Yes since it was buffed by like 50% in the patch

[honest saddle]

does weapon not have focusing lens possibility?

why not focusing lens x2?

[fathom adder]

so radiant even for st after buff ?

[honest saddle]

radiant seems like its about .6% behind in ST still

and in dungeon slice its about 1% better

[mental saffron]

Anyone know a workaround to not activate Symbols while its already active? I have it on scroll wheel so multi scrolling is a slight issue

[honest saddle]

#showtooltip Symbols of Death
/castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null
/cqs

[mental saffron]

Thanks, how does this work? does it add a 2 sec CD to the button?

[honest saddle]

yes.

[mental saffron]

Cool thanks!

[honest saddle]

np

[compact citrus]

Any idea how Sub is gonna perform in the raid compared to Assa and Outlaw?

[honest saddle]

nobody knows, with recent nerfs and buffs to sin and sub, it's very hard to tell

most think sub will perform well on early bosses and early in tier

sin may be used on the later bosses

and outlaw is kind of out of the picture until we see otherwise

that is general sentiments atm, subject to change with tuning

[compact citrus]

Thanks! Just watched that tier list on IV where Outlaw seems to be performing best, dont know about the data tho.

[distant plinth]

hey guys, is the transmitter still bis in S2 ? Bloodmallet's list positions it just under HoCards...

[honest saddle]

yes.

its still bis until mythic house of cards I think

[rain ingot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[honest saddle]

I think most people generally think that list is pure garbage

[compact citrus]

Yeah makes sense!

Btw @honest saddle Do you have any problem with Vanish > Shadowstrike?

[honest saddle]

that macro doesnt work anymore

it's a bug we think

[worthy axle]

aha bug

[honest saddle]

AHA Bahum BUG

[lilac stag]

No Macro

[neat plinth]

is it ever worth pressing backstab during SD to build dance macabre stacks?

[honest saddle]

no.

strike just hits too hard

[tribal blade]

i feel like radiant power is better for all purposes

[fallow nimbus]

Get 4 daggers and switch

[oak rune]

What’s the rough diff between depths radiance

[fallow nimbus]

A few k

[candid raven]

Does the nightly version on raidbots contain the nerf that comes with the season start?

[fallow nimbus]

Like not even 10k i think

[oak rune]

Depths is much better on dslice thought right?

[fallow nimbus]

No

Depths is pure st and power is more versatile

[waxen meadow]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[oak rune]

Ah gotcha thx

[fallow nimbus]

With season start just go radiant power on new weapons. You will probably be a lot in m+ and the st loss vs double depths is so small that blinking or sideeyeing the dps meter costs you more dps

[waxen meadow]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[keen dome]

I was wondering about that too, Valthan. Your logic makes a lot of sense.

[hollow spear]

Just be rich and have 100 of each in your inventory

[keen dome]

Hahaha

[oak rune]

so 1 rad 1 depths or 2 rad

[hazy breach]

Idk id just recommend 2 depths now

They buffed depths by like 50% this patch

[solemn creek]

10k is like getting a full upgrade

[oak rune]

what are you guys crafting first week if you can - daggers?

[hazy breach]

Best craft if you do not have a myth track dagger is going to be a dagger yes

[solemn creek]

That was the diff between a heroic 624 to 636 gear in season 1 (not weapon)

[alpine wraith]

myth dagger craft is 150k

dps

[hollow spear]

Yeah, where are the 10k coming from 😅

[alpine wraith]

but you can cheat a bit if you got a lot of M gear first week and use the free crest you get from campaign

[oak rune]

do we know how many pieces we can craft first week?

[alpine wraith]

1

[oak rune]

😦

oh the shards

[alpine wraith]

correct the sparks

you can use the hc spark for prog on dagger it is still a 658

[keen dome]

Ye, just the first

[alpine wraith]

and see if you drop the myth one from M boss

or weekly

[keen dome]

I'm torn if I wanna craft it asap to 675 or save that for reset in case of vault

[oak rune]

you need 2 dags

[alpine wraith]

only mainhaind is important

[digital aspen]

but even if you craft dagger with gilded, AND you get myth track dagger from raid/vault, you can still equip the crafted one as OH, so all good

[alpine wraith]

off hand can be whatever for the longest time

yea

at most you lose 4 myth upgrades

[digital aspen]

I'd advise waiting till first vault

Then craft

[alpine wraith]

i will craft anyway because im progging

[solemn creek]

I mean.. its a huge dps increase for week 1

[alpine wraith]

but still vault is so random sometimes

[oak rune]

giga

[solemn creek]

I wouldnt wait for prog

[alpine wraith]

yea use the hc crest for a 658

[solemn creek]

If u dont prog. U can wait

[digital aspen]

Well, if you re not stuck on a boss because of gear, no real reason to craft that early

but I get the appeal of being stronger earlier

[oak rune]

should we run 8s and buy a mythic crest and craft with that?

or just send the hc

[solemn creek]

10s shouldnt be hard

[hollow spear]

If you can run 8s

[solemn creek]

With the scaling

[digital aspen]

10s will almost 100% be hard-ish week 1

[hollow spear]

You might have a rude awakening

Ptr testing was with max gear

[oak rune]

we need 8s or 10s

for crests

[solemn creek]

8s

[oak rune]

but 10s for vault still

for m track

[hollow spear]

If you have a premade group you should be good

[solemn creek]

Last comparason was df season 1> s2. They didnt change the scaling and thar wasnt hard

[alpine wraith]

gilded drop from 7s

[hollow spear]

I'd forget about pugging 8s personally

[alpine wraith]

not 8s in s2

[solemn creek]

Now they changed the scaling. And 10s are the old 7-8 of s1

[hollow vortex]

its 7s yh

[hollow spear]

I heard that 10s hit quite hard

[alpine wraith]

depends on gear

[hollow spear]

And that was with mythic gear

[alpine wraith]

you can get around 660 first week

that is a lot of power

[hollow spear]

Yeah but not before raid

[alpine wraith]

from 640 we have rn

[hollow spear]

If you prog

[alpine wraith]

you understimate the sweats

unless you prog at 7 am

i will likely only have like 3 or 4hs of m+ before raid

unluck

[hollow spear]

If you're on NA servers won't be up before early afternoon

[oak rune]

NA servers you wont be on tuesday

[alpine wraith]

yea you have time watch some videos ahaha

eu servers are usually at the crack of 7am or 8 am

[oak rune]

undermine is still laggy today

shit gonna dump tues

[alpine wraith]

it will always be laggy likely

because of how the events work