compared to mastery
#subtlety
uneven scarab
how much vers% u got
random hare
idk above 36%
tulip gorge
also wasn't mastery becoming an issue for sub due to how much we're getting from flag and house of cards?
uneven scarab
damn
random hare
but rn i think about 20% on that key
vestal escarp
flag mastery is flat
uneven scarab
i was doing keys on live as sub with like 22%
random hare
well i dont think ppl can achieve this vers that i have on ptr rn
upper plinth
thats kinda demotivating even though your absolutely right
uneven scarab
nah they cant
random hare
because i use season 1 neck+season 1 ring idk if those exist in season 2
high vers both
vestal escarp
the only vers high gear aside tier head is top ring
S2 gear is just less unbalanced towards vers compared to S1
bleak night
thats kinda demotivating even though your absolutely right
i still think you'd be able to find a guild even as a pirate, but showing you can play multiple specs will definitely make it easier
upper plinth
i still think you'd be able to find a guild even as a pirate, but showing you ca...
thats absolutely true 100%. Be honest with me do you think its a bad idea to play sub first to achieve that?
bleak night
sin is probably easier to learn, but i dont think either one is a bad idea
tulip gorge
why would it be a bad idea to play the strongest spec?
bleak night
ideally at some point you learn both anyway
tulip gorge
idk I heard raid fight timings favor sub, but that could be bs
lilac stag
thats kinda demotivating even though your absolutely right
Most people (even CE) have zero clue about this spec. Trying to balance out long term goals vs short term is a thing. Thankfully assa is quite straight forward to figure and needs way attention (entity is why it’s usually a preferred raid prog store by a majority of rogue)
vestal escarp
shit going on at 90s intervals favor a lot of specs
lilac stag
I can play anything at this point in our CEish guild and be fine.
tulip gorge
sure but if fights favor 90s specs, why wouldn't I play sub?
tulip gorge
on the 2nd last fight I also heard you need to kill some prio adds fast, and sub is better at that I think
lilac stag
I pray for stable servers on reset.
lilac stag
on the 2nd last fight I also heard you need to kill some prio adds fast, and sub...
It’s also a hard execute boss
tulip gorge
true
lilac stag
So adv assa depending on raid comp
bleak night
there are apparently a couple bosses that execute is really big on yea
so sin feels like a pretty safe bet
lilac stag
6&7 are executes
tulip gorge
we need to see how assa is going to be tuned as well
tepid trellis
issue with sub logs usually is that even when the spec is "better" people still tend to not play it and stick to assa which means the sample size in logs is very small and it makes it look worse on your profile, also going up against 20 sub otps vs going against a sea of rogue rerolls in assa
tulip gorge
sims weren't looking too hot
upper plinth
Most people (even CE) have zero clue about this spec. Trying to balance out long...
short term would be to widen my skillset with rogue. Long term getting in to a CE guild. I want to be able to play all 3 at the end.
bleak night
thats a good point, it should be easier to get a good looking log as sin than sub
tepid trellis
the more people that play it
the easier it is to get pretty numbers
apart from the golden 100
lilac stag
I can crank on sub, be relatively close to a top log and it’s blue. 🤣
tepid trellis
i still meme about it
sleek sun
So we will go trickster in st as well?
lilac stag
Only 2
tepid trellis
other was a 0
keen dome
When I went into raid as Assa, I think I got some very quick 60 - 70 logs while making a lot of mistakes. And at the same time getting 50 - 60 as Sub. Also the funny times when you'll do like, thes ame damage as a Ret getting a 90 log and your Sub log'll be a 60 or something haha
pallid hollow
ok so coming back to rogue from enha and trying sub for the first time since smolderon, is it me or is sub waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier than the sub we used on smolderon mythic?
lilac stag
If you can play both dagger specs, in general you should have zero issue finding a guild.
Outlaw is a meme
tepid trellis
ok so coming back to rogue from enha and trying sub for the first time since smo...
id say its about the same
upper plinth
Outlaw is a meme
true but ouch
pallid hollow
but no shadowdust makes it way easier for me at least
hazy breach
I mean ye you dont need to move around flag or blades
tepid trellis
only thing that made shadowdust hard
hazy breach
But you need to move around dance and symbols
tepid trellis
was assigning cds
but 99.9% of people never did that
they jsut followed what other people did in lorgs
vestal escarp
!cds
wicked joltBOT
Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.
upper plinth
If you can play both dagger specs, in general you should have zero issue finding...
i know you cant give me a "right" answer but what would you do in my stead? Learn Sin or Sub first
tulip gorge
i know you cant give me a "right" answer but what would you do in my stead? Lear...
whatever you enjoy more
tepid trellis
go with whatever seems to end meta next patch
lilac stag
I haven’t looked. What are the top queen logs doing, sending plat 1 & 3?
pallid hollow
yea, though having a outlaw mind and going ham on buttons, not having to think about where to use what cooldowns and what resets makes it really easy now
lilac stag
still in fury prison
hazy breach
yea, though having a outlaw mind and going ham on buttons, not having to think a...
What? are you saying sub is just going ham sending on cd?
vestal escarp
should be just plat 1
hazy breach
Because thats not the case at all
tepid trellis
I haven’t looked. What are the top queen logs doing, sending plat 1 & 3?
still on on first platform, they just dont do portals
pallid hollow
that
tepid trellis
so they pad on spiders
pallid hollow
not having to worry about shadowdust makes keeping up with cds alignments and stuff easy
upper plinth
whatever you enjoy more
dont have the experience on either spec to really answer that. After much initial struggle sub is kinda nice when i dont fuck up
lilac stag
i know you cant give me a "right" answer but what would you do in my stead? Lear...
Master Assa (takes a day or two), practice sub in heroic
pallid hollow
cause on outlaw you just dont care
tulip gorge
dont have the experience on either spec to really answer that. After much initia...
you shouldn't stress too much, you have the entire season to learn the other spec
lilac stag
Pug shenanigans will teach you everything about cd management.
This spec still can get overwhelming when learning fights. You can also think about what you’d do as sub differently since there really isn’t thinking fir assa.
but if you want logs assa is the way
hazy breach
not having to worry about shadowdust makes keeping up with cds alignments and st...
I mean sure, you just send flag & blades every 90s and cant move them around. But the difficulty just moved to timing your dances and symbols outside of that well
lilac stag
logs usually what you need to level up guilds
vale pine
subtlety would be a lot easier to learn if you just send cds on cd
one of the biggest problems beginners run into is doing this and then doing bad damage
upper plinth
thanks a lot guys for all the input. Have some thinking to do
lilac stag
one of the biggest problems beginners run into is doing this and then doing bad ...
at least RS isn’t munching dmg now.
hazy breach
Especially in keys, timing your cds really well/perfectly is incredibly hard
Pretty much every key youre gonna end up making mistakes
lilac stag
thanks a lot guys for all the input. Have some thinking to do
You’re doing all the right things for learning as sub. Nice thing is assa just needs a ring and neck and the rest of your vers mastery sub gear is perfectly fine to play assa with.
upper plinth
thats actually really nice
vestal escarp
Especially in keys, timing your cds really well/perfectly is incredibly hard
it's just unnatural for a spec with all this concentrated dmg to shine with a good pull every 90s, with very few exceptions
pallid hollow
also i have to ask, sub doesnt use backstab for danse macabre anymore?
vestal escarp
no
steel zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
pallid hollow
ok thanks
vale pine
also i have to ask, sub doesnt use backstab for danse macabre anymore?
we stopped doing so after tww
drifting fable
we dont spam rupture if theres 25s left on flag and we have a coup de grace anymore right
we just send?
drifting fable
ive never spec'd into sub
but im locked in
the guides arent really updated tho
we dont CB first sectech in opener
fallow nimbus
Me too
pallid hollow
then i'm really happy
rugged condor
ive never spec'd into sub
wait fr?
pallid hollow
cause i feel that if i have to play it i wont have to press too many buttons
molten citrus
skip and lying
molten citrus
rugged condor
i thought you played sub in SFO
drifting fable
this tier
drifting fable
cus he said play like s1
and i didnt play sub in s1
lmao
Sub in SOFO was peak
rugged condor
it was fun
drifting fable
bring it back
drifting fable
bring back SFO outlaw
fuck no
pallid hollow
got an 85 on bloodbound playing it for the first time in a while with oulaw gear on
drifting fable
venthyr was the raid one and it was so bad
bleak night
kyrian shadowdust outlaw was bis outlaw
rugged condor
kyrian shadowdust outlaw was bis outlaw
facts
drifting fable
and now its unplayable
rugged condor
bring back vault outlaw
i didnt play df at all, what was vault outlaw like
pallid hollow
was fun
drifting fable
i didnt play df at all, what was vault outlaw like
like
so many resets
and not playing KIR slop
haughty mural
6 fth ?
pallid hollow
with the tricks talent in raid do i risk killing my tank?
topaz flicker
6 fth was sick, kir fine tho, it's just weird entire spec revolving around crackshot until it gets removed
rugged condor
yeah i am not a crackshot fan
the 11.0.7 change with vanish resetting BTE helped though
minor aurora
got curious and started watching some pov's in Nerub'ar Palace; some pov's i've watched are using SnD, is that cause of the Trickster tree?
tepid trellis
with the tricks talent in raid do i risk killing my tank?
no lol
topaz flicker
got curious and started watching some pov's in Nerub'ar Palace; some pov's i've ...
if they're old mayhaps? we used to still need to
tepid trellis
the amounf of threat you redirect is such a teeny tiny fraction of the threat they generate in a global
pallid hollow
ok thank god
minor aurora
if they're old mayhaps? we used to still need to
alright, just curious
pallid hollow
cause the tank i tricked died on sikran
thought it was my fault after reading the talents
hexed dagger
that had nothing to do with you
minor aurora
Also, anyone know what the add-on is that shows you what cooldowns you've pressed in order?
minor aurora
thanks
minor aurora
ye details opiton probably just best
where is it? if you know
i suck at navigating these addons, my brain just implodes
grand flame
Details is clusterF as is. Since I don't gcd option, sorry, can't help. 😄
I just know, that its there somewhere in those menus. 😄
minor aurora
i figured out how to get a threat and damage meter, and the rest is just a clusterfuck
grand flame
User friendliness is not Details strong side. 😄
topaz flicker
i t hink it's called streamer mode or something
i'm on ptr and i don't have it as option here, might be a plugin for it
minor aurora
i'm on ptr and i don't have it as option here, might be a plugin for it
may be, yeah
tulip lagoon
!wa
minor aurora
problem is now finding that plugin loll
grand flame
I the blizzard addon menu screen, check if "streamer plugin" is checked.
minor aurora
yeah it is enabled
leaden thunder
I'm a little confused about SecTec outside of CDs. I know I'm supposed to hold SoD for it, but sometimes I feel like its out of sync. Am I just messing up the rotation at that point?
molten citrus
Tech has CDR
so sometimes it will come off CD at different times
just depends on how many combo points you're cycling through
leaden thunder
Do you hold it if flag is coming up soon?
molten citrus
!cds
wicked joltBOT
Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.
molten citrus
in most cases you don't want to hold Tech, because of the CDR
but maybe there's a certain seconds left on Flag rule, not sure
leaden thunder
okay thanks
tulip gorge
Is sending naked sod + sec tech still a thing with the new tier set?
random comet
I think at some point you end up with a spare SoD and usable sectec outside of the other CDs, that’s been my experience, but I’m not an expert and might just be doing something else wrong 😅
plush roost
Is sending naked sod + sec tech still a thing with the new tier set?
Yes there is a naked sod sec tec in the st rotation still 🙂
Should be something like > cds > naked sod+tec > dance+CB > cds for trickster
solar geode
alpine wraith
yea man i cant wait to stay 30 mins + in que for every key
was good they put a new poe league so i have something to do
while getting declined but the new zone looks cool at lest
wooden kernel
fast mist
is there a sub disc for cata
alpine wraith
there is one for classic in general maybe they have cata things there
fast mist
alr ty
molten citrus
is there a sub disc for cata
There’s some classic servers linked in the pins of #classic-discussion
molten citrus
You can also google Simonizeshow Discord
alpine wraith
although i dont recommend sub until deathwing
and even then playing it on madness is kinda iffy
combat with 2 no kaleds was fire tho until you got daggers
fast mist
im gearing a rouge just not sure what trinket to get
twilit phoenix
is there another embellishment that buffs blessed weapon grip?
alpine wraith
nope
twilit phoenix
oh damn, so it's not like the darkmoon one that gets buffed by the writhing band or whatever?
alpine wraith
yea that is kinda the prog way
you upgrade ascendance dagger
and keep the old ilvl one
on boots/belt/helmet/gloves
whatever is lower ilvl
lilac stag
im gearing a rouge just not sure what trinket to get
The lantern trinket in siren isles & transmitter.
alpine wraith
might as well craft all of those just in case
twilit phoenix
blessed weapon is simming higher than the ascendance for me
alpine wraith
im gearing a rouge just not sure what trinket to get
what raid is up rn? the ragnaros trinket and one of the agi stacking ones from spine whould be really good
but there is also another that is better i kinda forgot the name
fast mist
ds is up rn
alpine wraith
then matrix and the spine one that stacks agi at whatever ilvl you can get then there was another maybe you can ask
to replace matrix
molten citrus
The lantern trinket in siren isles & transmitter.
He’s talking about Cata classic 
alpine wraith
you can also get some from welfare kinda in the front thingy from weeklies
fast mist
then matrix and the spine one that stacks agi at whatever ilvl you can get then ...
alr ty
lilac stag
He’s talking about Cata classic <:kekw3:907372904130441217>
What the fuck is wrong with people
alpine wraith
well it is the raid that introduced most people to sub raiding
it kinda has a special place in my heart
although it was all kinds of fucked up
lilac stag
Let it stay there
twilit phoenix
is there any way to sim embellishments en masse, or do I have to manually check in top gear?
molten citrus
Even going back now to farm the legendary daggers is a pain in the ass
alpine wraith
likely fuu already did them but yu can also do them
fast mist
ultraxion is ez slime wasnt hard but zonozz is cringe
lilac stag
it’s all cringe now
alpine wraith
well ultraxion was not that easy week 1
you 1 healed it and were going from 100 to 10
every 2 secs
i still have chills
the boss after was kinda free tho
the orc lady i even forgot the name
then ship boss was also super easy
then came the reckoning
spine of DO A BARREL ROLL
slate lantern
shy orbit
is there a shadow dance bar weakaura?
alpine wraith
but you can also make simpler ones
shy orbit
ye the luxthos one WA doesnt have a bar for shadow dance which is weird
i kinda made myself one though
molten citrus
ye the luxthos one WA doesnt have a bar for shadow dance which is weird
zac's WA pack has one
its linked under the !wa command in #outlaw if you wanted to check it out
but it covers all 3 specs as well
spark tusk
There's a relatively new feature in WA too for Linear Progress
you can add a little progress bar like you would a Text to any other weakaura
which can tick down like a progress bar would
kinda neat for something compact and simple
So you can show an uptime of a buff visually without obscuring the cooldown swipe
on an icon
So could do a shadow dance cd with a linear progress for the buff duration
I just have mine change my energy bar color (because I'm always looking at my energy bar so it is a nice place to put the info) with a timer on the bar for the buff duration
swift tinsel
That sounds kinda awesome, I've made bars anchored to icons in the past to do just that
Toying with the idea of something like that for SoD and dance so I can see diff charge cooldowns while still seeing the buff uptime without needing separate auras
topaz raptor
is what I made,. Its smaller than itll import
molten citrus
There's a relatively new feature in WA too for Linear Progress
i figured out what was borking my WAs the other day
went to the WA disc to ask 
Masque was causing all of my WA icons to scale oddly
topaz raptor
also that WA will import as load for sin only cuz i duped a sin WA and didnt change it lol
swift tinsel
iterating on the bar thing bc I can't decide how I want to do it lol
SoD turns green when its safe to send with respect to flag's cd
cobalt vector
When is that the case? is it when second cd < flag cd or is it more complex than that. I have no view of how many cps we gain/spend outside of cds.
swift tinsel
sod has a static cooldown but sometimes things get stinky and it helps my lizard brain to have a color tell me I can send flag and be able to have 2x sod
cobalt vector
Ooh sod not dance I was confused
Do u want to send 2 sod during flag no right? Just make sure u have 1?
swift tinsel
yeah, I have basic conditions on the dance bar to turn green when flag is off cd and I have 1 charge +=<40 on 2nd charge
Yes, always 2x sod
and 2x dance and sectech
swift tinsel
yeah, just gotta make sure you have 1 sod ready and the other having no more cd left than like 10-12 seconds
which shouldn't happen to often
cobalt vector
And if thats the case I assume we also just hold the sec tech
swift tinsel
but mechanics can make things goofy
cobalt vector
at less than 25s till flag
cobalt vector
Havent played sub this expac yet just rewritting my own was
swift tinsel
SoD WA conditions i have set up for rare scenarios
I also have trouble deciding if I like progress bars or icons better for cd tracking
esp for stuff with charges bc you can't see the cooldown while the aura is active (outside of the new thing LE posted)
cobalt vector
I use a mix of both
swift tinsel
only bars I have atm are for energy and snd, doing my pre-11.1 updating today
cobalt vector
bottom is basic cd tracking up top is saying whehther its safe and tracking uptime, left is alacrity righjt is snd. The purple above the cps is shadow tech
abstract mango
my rogues
how do I unfade utilities and defensives in Devlin's wa?
or any wa for the matter
twilit phoenix
iterating on the bar thing bc I can't decide how I want to do it lol
Which WA is this? I kinda like the bars
topaz raptor
display color
swift tinsel
Which WA is this? I kinda like the bars
I made it
swift tinsel
I’ll have to upload it to wago
abstract mango
my legend
@topaz raptor they still appear faded smh
dont have the icon inset setting
topaz raptor
<@236668793709920267> they still appear faded smh
check conditions
abstract mango
just delete the desaturate ones?
abstract mango
i always used private singular auras ://
thats what I wanna remove
i want to make them clear as core abilities
if im being clear xd
topaz raptor
delete the alpha conditions as well
vernal junco
!wa
cobalt vector
What do I do if I ever get to the situation where I have sec tech but no symbols and still far out from flag? Or am I doing something wrong to end up in that situation
like do I just send a raw sec tech with no symbols?
hazy breach
What do I do if I ever get to the situation where I have sec tech but no symbols...
Nah thats fine
shell willow
Naked sec tech
hazy breach
like do I just send a raw sec tech with no symbols?
If youre 10000% sure it will be up by the time you need it sure
But like, you do no damage outside cds anyway
So why risk it
shell willow
i've found it takes about 6 finishers to get a sec tech back off cd after sending it
probably best not to risk it with mechanics and the like ensuring you dont have full up time to get it back
cobalt vector
So its basically just a wash
I assume its also p important next sseason to not accidently cast a finisher between the first and 2nd dance when in flag
wicked joltBOT
During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.
cobalt vector
And does it matter if I CB the first/second sec tech in flag or not
hazy breach
The second one does more
Because you'll have more flawless form stacks and flag stacks
solid yacht
!opener
bleak night
solid yacht
lol
dreamy flume
is subtlety considered hard spec, i've recently came back and im wondering what should i play for s2. Would it be a pain to pick it up?
short radish
i think sub is considered harder than it really is
the rotation itself is rather static/consistent
its just the rules of when to press things
arguarbly you can say that for all specs though
but sub is good in the sense that when you press things right you see damage
hazy breach
Ye its probably easier than its reputation would suggest.
Its just hard to pick it up and play without reading up on anything and "feeling it"
But if you go through the guides it shouldnt be too bad
cedar eagle
as sub are you building DB stacks before Sectech or sending it on first finisher? been watching streams and seeing a mix
hazy breach
db?
hazy breach
Nah just send asap. Thats old tech from DF
cedar eagle
what changed to make it not good?
hazy breach
You get unseen blades after sectech
So if you delay sectech those might not hit in dance
and/or your coup wont
cedar eagle
ohh interesting
i played sub in DF but jsut now looking at it in TWW and trickster interactions confuses me
so in lets say M+ trash pack with CDs, you build up ruptures while gathering, what would you dance look like?
hazy breach
Strike > sectech > storm > bp > strike > bp
if theres 5 or more mobs, but it changes to 7 or more with the patch
Otherwise just strike > sectech > strike > evis
jaunty heath
I got rolled by onezy on dev evoker today it’s so over for me
cedar eagle
so even in aoe you still just slam strike evis strike evis and finish on 6+? i think when to storm/BP is making me overthink
hazy breach
Storm does practically no damage
Strike does a fuckton of damage and procs unseen blade, which does even more and lets you coup
cedar eagle
makes sense, so general playstyle with sub in M+ is alot of cleaving AOE off of a mostly ST rotation on a prio mob
jaunty heath
so even in aoe you still just slam strike evis strike evis and finish on 6+? i t...
I like to simplify it by thinking „if strike is up I hit strike no matter what“
Well besides the one singular storm for FW
cedar eagle
so im def storm/bombing far too often
tribal blade
one of my guildies said yoda is doing keys with a sub rogue who's going big mode on ptr
looking to confirm
bleak night
can confirm, i am the key
jaunty heath
one of my guildies said yoda is doing keys with a sub rogue who's going big mode...
Soup seller is doing too much dam on ptr
tribal blade
Soup seller is doing too much dam on ptr
oh is it soup seller? haha nice
jaunty heath
Theres probably more people
cedar eagle
one of my guildies said yoda is doing keys with a sub rogue who's going big mode...
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2389089785 3 hour point he goes sub rogue
tribal blade
just if you're running TFD
modest delta
ya
tribal blade
unless you're coming from BFA or something
modest delta
btu thats what we run yeah?
fickle mason
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
modest delta
ic
tribal blade
it would probably be worth running in raid if you had a super short encounter
bleak night
british thermal unit
hazy breach
the word "but" spelled incorrectly
shell willow
!wa
hazy breach
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2389089785 3 hour point he goes sub rogue
I know yarrgir is a really good player but this really is one of the UIs of all time
bleak night
hazy breach
Moreso referring to the fact that a bunch of the stuff thats taking up space in the middle of the screen is moot information.
Rotten and macabre i'd just suggest to not track at all. Snd, fazed and find weakness you could have an icon reminding you that they are not up, but you absolutely do not need to see them at all times in the middle of your screen since theyre almost always up passively
tribal blade
I know yarrgir is a really good player but this really is one of the UIs of all ...
this is 100% "i don't have sub set up so let me just throw together something quick for ptr"
dense coyote
how is sub looking compared to the other specs ?
tribal blade
i'm also not sure why he needs tricks icon to be so close to the center of his screen
shell willow
lol this is my ui
cedar eagle
I know yarrgir is a really good player but this really is one of the UIs of all ...
yeah its something
swift tinsel
My fazed is baked into coup/UB stacks to save space as a border
lilac stag
not for raid
You most likely will if the fight lengths are under 4 mins
tribal blade
You most likely will if the fight lengths are under 4 mins
i thought it was better at around 3:30 fight length or under
something like that
not 100% sure
lilac stag
When I reran with tier it was 4 now
tribal blade
makes sense it's gaining power with the new tier
lilac stag
WM shit. 
hard trellis
what did they change in sub for m + that makes it so good
lilac stag
Nothing
lilac stag
It’s always been good
hard trellis
doubt
lilac stag
Sorry you don’t like the answer
swift tinsel
and will be very good in s2
lilac stag
on streams
If you think about it, this likely only happened because of stacks not dropping initially.
swift tinsel
Honestly valid point
tribal blade
yeah the reaction of "WTF SUB IS SO INSANE" was kinda dumb
no way, if you have perma tier stacks your damage is crazy
lilac stag
I still think folks will end up back on assa
shell willow
Sub is the bees knee
tribal blade
there's not gonna be a lot of people coming to sub unless it's the absolute #1 spec
swift tinsel
100%
the barrier for entry is too much for too many people
"you need to pay attention to your buttons in ways that don't always make sense'
shell willow
lol
lilac stag
the realization of the cd management to get the numbers
but if you like a challenge?
swift tinsel
Challenge with tangible payoff
it feels really, really fucking good when you nail it
tribal blade
looks like sub's damage profile is a lot healthier than sin's
in keys
doing monster ST damage
while being able to crank aoe too
swift tinsel
Yeah I'm a big fan of not having to trade off
feels so bad when you either nuke adds and tickle the boss or vice versa
tribal blade
haha this is actually one of the upsides of blizz ignoring us
we continue to keep our talent pathing that gives us almost all ST in aoe build
lilac stag
some of the fights gonna be wild between mechanics and timings
Really curious to see where burst vs execute lands with the two burn bosses
hazy breach
Depends on how long the burn phases end up
3 minute burn phase in execute should be assa territory for sure
lilac stag
yup
hazy breach
But if its like 2 minutes its a lot less clearcut
swift tinsel
prays for 16 second windows that start right as we hit first sectech in flag
hazy breach
No 12s burn phases like court
lilac stag
First boss looked like damage amp was all 2 min cds
hazy breach
14 so both my sectechs can reliably hit pls
swift tinsel
yeah itd be way too nice if it lined up perfectly for us
hazy breach
Well the amp is like 45 seconds long or some shit
swift tinsel
oh jeez
hazy breach
On first boss
shell willow
Lovely
swift tinsel
I haven't looked at any of the fights yet
hazy breach
So its kinda sus
lilac stag
yeah. Get the spreadsheet out. Lol
swift tinsel
we usually have a discord meeting
twilit phoenix
Yeah paying attention to sub cds relative to mechanics is yuge
I tried it in a h queen boost yesterday, and got rank 8 😎
young mural
Kinda unrelated, (but) does anyone here know if we're getting new consumables next patch?
swift tinsel
Nope
swift tinsel
got my stash from casual upkeep
twilit phoenix
i didn't mean monetary value
just relative power to how strong they were season 1
since we'll have way more stats from gear
warm depot
they just scale up iirc?
swift tinsel
pots/flasks are usually just a flat value
molten citrus
?
molten citrus
random hare
kind bluff
do adds count on rash for parse?
civic swallow
I feel like im "munching" combo points, there's times I automatically get full combo points, then I end up hitting Shadowstrike again instead of a finisher. What is it?
autumn glade
I feel like im "munching" combo points, there's times I automatically get full c...
read shadowcraft in sub tree
lilac stag
do adds count on rash for parse?
It tells you right on Warcraft logs
tribal blade
alright i'm relearning using seperate sectec and sectec with CB macros
sometimes forget during 2nd dance and send normal sectec and fuck my cds
but so far it's going aight
lilac stag
one is big red button. The other is really big red button.
tribal blade
YAAASS
lilac stag
until someone from China find a 4% ST gain with it
cedar eagle
what should damage breakdown of sub rogue m+ look like
tribal blade
if you're playing trickster sectec should be on top
cedar eagle
something like this?
this was a 12 on PTR but i think my stats are a little cooked and i know im making alot of mistakes
tribal blade
something like this?
BP should prob be higher
but depends on the key so can't say for sure
misty hare
On the wowhead guide, what does it mean to onl use symbols in pandemic?
tribal blade
On the wowhead guide, what does it mean to onl use symbols in pandemic?
you can mostly ignore that, the important thing is getting sectec supercharged
native zodiac
On the wowhead guide, what does it mean to onl use symbols in pandemic?
when you press symbols you just wanna make sure that one of the next 2 finishers is a sectech
so you usually press it with 10 secs cd on sectech
tribal blade
Oh gotcha okay. I was contextualize it like a dot..
the old usage was trying not to overlap an existing symbols until it had ~3 secs left on it
tribal blade
is this the first aura buff we've gotten in a long time
i don't remember the last time sub got an aura buff
balmy thorn
Is it ever ok to use a sectech outside of dance? Normally I have them line up, but I was playing before and I must have used cds wrong and they weren't lined up. In that case do I hold sectech for like 10 seconds or so for dance?
barren marsh
which guide should i follow? i havent played sub in a while and im trying to learn
molten citrus
!guide
barren marsh
i saw them, but not sure if they are updated
molten citrus
not much is changing in s2
they are fine to get a baseline understanding
only a couple very small optimizations change next season
wouldn't worry about them until the season actually starts
balmy thorn
Have we decided on when to BP now with the Nimble Flurry buffs? Some were saying 7-8 targets
dry plank
Check the pins
dim trail
I have a question, with the current gear, its worth swap from assassin to sub tuesday?
balmy thorn
Check the pins
Ahh sweet they've been updated. Thanks
steel zinc
I have a question, with the current gear, its worth swap from assassin to sub tu...
You can play it now. It's one of the best raid specs
dim trail
I mean on m+
molten citrus
I mean on m+
if you mean without s2 tier, yes its fine
sub was barely behind assa in m+ already
and got a raw +10% aura buff
dim trail
If my memory serves me right, right now the sub doesn't use black powder, right?
molten citrus
it does
tribal blade
If my memory serves me right, right now the sub doesn't use black powder, right?
you do on 5+ targets
molten citrus
check out one of the guides
tribal blade
next tier it's 6+, but eleem said it's equal to evis with nimble at 7
so might as well nimble at 7 because more prio
if sub is becoming a top tier M+ spec next season it'll be more potent than sin was this season
far better ST damage profile and also much tankier
barren marsh
they are fine to get a baseline understanding
thank you 🙂
west tide
guys i have done no prep i just have mythic raiding gear for sin but im excited to join you all as a sub man next tier when i get 4p ❤️
molten citrus
guys i have done no prep i just have mythic raiding gear for sin but im excited ...
why wait? 
tribal blade
embels are pretty low impact, it won't make or break your dps by much
frigid sleet
are we expecting more nerfs to transmitter before raid opens?
molten citrus
nothing is impossible
sick jackal
are we expecting more nerfs to transmitter before raid opens?
Hopefully
I dont wanna run around on my 636 trinket until i kill the 6th myhtic boss
frigid sleet
yeah i hope so aswell
native zodiac
S2 dragonflight flashbacks where 20% of your gear was s1 gear 
They usually fix that p quick though
drowsy moon
timid pulsar
Think it was !log or !logs
weak flame
Hello what are the current embellish for m+ ? Ascension?
wild hornet
why wait? <a:ASchikabrows:580733512378875914>
Never wait
No longer a ret anymore
Gonna headbang the wall with blue parses
molten citrus
Hello what are the current embellish for m+ ? Ascension?
focusing lens or just duskthread
embellishments are all very tiny impact this expansion
weak flame
Okay Thx a lot
when we play trickster at how many target do we press shuriken storm? And do we spam or juste one press for macabre ?
molten citrus
!guide
molten citrus
check out one of these fancy guides 
weak flame
Thx
steel zinc
When you learn that using CB on the second SecTech is a +0.6% damage boost
That also is only possible since we have now more gear
Same with assa and after the opener sending a shiv in lingering window
white thunder
can i macro SB, symbols of death and shadow dance together
median nacelle
you can
vestal escarp
nobody stops you but it's not optimal for dmg
silk vessel
So, we are playing sub next season? 😄
vale pine
ask again once the season starts
vale pine
As in, there is likely another tuning patch and we can't predict what ends up on top after
steel zinc
So, we are playing sub next season? 😄
If you have to ask its w/e you want to play.
ornate lake
So, we are playing sub next season? 😄
You can be my sub, i'll be your dom
vernal junco
Guys, I have a question: how many SoD do we need before popping the flag?
silk vessel
I am just asking because I have not been staying up to date, and my first impression is that everyone is playing sub in PTR
jade urchin
do we still SB after sectec?
molten citrus
Guys, I have a question: how many SoD do we need before popping the flag?
!cds
wicked joltBOT
Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.
molten citrus
do we still SB after sectec?
doesn't matter
jade urchin
so rotation stays literally the same as season1? other than aoe target counts
molten citrus
pretty much
jade urchin
aight tyvm ❤️
vernal junco
!cds
So, do we need a WA to track "Now we can pop cooldowns" and "How long until we can pop cooldowns"?
molten citrus
you def can't just mongo pop everything on CD
molten citrus
im not 100% sure which pack has what
i believe LE's pack has some functions that let you know when you can press certain things
but there's multiple rules about multiple CDs, not sure if any of the packs track ALL of them
hearty elk
Question - coming back to rogue for the next patch, how is sub looking compartively to other specs for DPS?
keen dome
It's very purple and this is good.
molten citrus
imo it doesn't matter how anything looks until 2 weeks into the season minimum
keen dome
It could all change in an instant, after all.
vernal junco
Alright, then I'll make one myself.
I think I’d want a WA to check the remaining count and cooldown of SD and SoD.
and tell me when I have enough to pop flag
molten citrus
the main things you play around
are SoD/sec tech and flag/blades
you should try not to put yourself into a situation where you're holding very long
sub is very much about planning ahead
vernal junco
PUGs sometimes... Today, I ran into a tank who split it into three pulls before the first big spider in Arak.
glass jasper
Returning after a few months away, is sub the way to go in 11.1?
keen dome
If you enjoy it, it's a very good spec, yep.
tribal blade
hey i'm coming back to rogue, is sub ok to play? can you write me an essay please
wraith sphinx
keen dome
hey i'm coming back to rogue, is sub ok to play? can you write me an essay pleas...
Actually, to be sincerely honest in my humble opinion, without being sentimental and of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's views and by trying to make it objectified and by considering each and everyone's valid opinion and without hiding any thoughts in my mind, and without lies to the actual truth, with my clear open mind and clean heart, expressing whatever is embedded inside me for a long time which I didn't say because I was nervous. But today, by gathering all the courage and motivation, I just want to say that I actually feel and think that Sub is pretty cool.
vale pine
is that a new copy pasta?
keen dome
is that a new copy pasta?
I stole it from Koffing a while back. It makes me laugh every time I see it.
It's such a good wall of text that says nothing
vale pine
haha for sure
tribal blade
Actually, to be sincerely honest in my humble opinion, without being sentimental...
the ultimate increase your word count for your essay move
jolly pasture
Are we still holding coup for dance and finishing with bp?
worn cape
The opener on wowhead still says to use blades after first sectech, but with the bug fixed, wouldn't it do more damage before first sectech?
haughty mural
as long as the clones get blades
you want to use premed before blades
thats why you wouldnt use it with dance
molten citrus
The opener on wowhead still says to use blades after first sectech, but with the...
The clones hit 1s after anyway
tribal blade
just make sure you press blades after premed is consumed and before the clones hit
somewhere in that window, ideally right where we've been using it
vale pine
Are we still holding coup for dance and finishing with bp?
not worth it anymore
tribal blade
i suspect there'll be situations where you want to hold coup for your next cd set if you're X seconds out
i really hope they fix the coup interaction with the tier set
@vale pine how much value did crit gain for us with the buff to surprising strikes
vale pine
we still going all in on mastery/vers
obtuse osprey
Hey, going back to the game and therefor rogue after some time.
How's sub looking compared to the other rogue spec ?
tribal blade
we still going all in on mastery/vers
hell yeah
tribal blade
Hey, going back to the game and therefor rogue after some time.
How's sub lookin...
Actually, to be sincerely honest in my humble opinion, without being sentimental and of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's views and by trying to make it objectified and by considering each and everyone's valid opinion and without hiding any thoughts in my mind, and without lies to the actual truth, with my clear open mind and clean heart, expressing whatever is embedded inside me for a long time which I didn't say because I was nervous. But today, by gathering all the courage and motivation, I just want to say that I actually feel and think that Sub is pretty cool.
haughty mural
🔮 says sub is fine
molten citrus
near stratus
Hey, going back to the game and therefor rogue after some time.
How's sub lookin...
i asked grok and it said 1. outlaw, 2. sub, 3. sin
for raid in new patch
ai never lies
obtuse osprey
ai never lies
foshore
vale pine
time to learn outlaw i guess
haughty mural
In "The War Within" Season 2, the Outlaw Rogue is considered the top-performing rogue specialization, particularly in Mythic+ dungeons. Its high mobility, strong area-of-effect (AoE) damage, and engaging playstyle make it a standout choice for players seeking versatility and effectiveness.
jade urchin
strong aoe 
haughty mural
vestal escarp
<@194804407706189824> how much value did crit gain for us with the buff to surpr...
rotten takes care of that
tribal blade
rotten takes care of that
it does, but doubling the effect of that talent seems pretty big
tribal blade
but more backstab damage kinda rofl
vestal escarp
since strike was already hitting for big
tribal blade
now more bigger
vestal escarp
tribal blade
i really like that the tuning to trickster increases it's prio
haughty mural
Subtlety Rogues are expected to be a strong choice in Season 2, offering a balanced mix of damage, utility, and survivability. While they may face challenges in sustained cleave damage and certain PvP matchups, their overall versatility makes them a viable option for players seeking a dynamic playstyle.
okay robot said we are strong
big
vestal escarp
i really like that the tuning to trickster increases it's prio
it's still meh cause you wanna flat pad with PB at serious target counts
i'll stick with DS for keys since that does real prio
tribal blade
it's still meh cause you wanna flat pad with PB at serious target counts
yeah you're not pressing backstab on higher target counts anyways, you right
vestal escarp
like it's pretty obvious
sub is giga concentrated
so in the remote and fantasizing eventuality that some routes pull around flag
it's gonna be massive pulls
and as trickster you have to press bp in those scenarios
tribal blade
yup for sure
tribal blade
there's no shot i'm gonna play DS, i'm a trickster fanboy
vestal escarp
if meta needs massive flat aoe bursts there even are competitors for that
UDK for example
lavish nebula
as long as the clones get blades
what is the benefit of using the premed dont I get full combo points anyway in dance?
tribal blade
what is the benefit of using the premed dont I get full combo points anyway in d...
no that's only in shadow blades
haughty mural
what is the benefit of using the premed dont I get full combo points anyway in d...
what prophet says
tribal blade
@vale pine someone here found your idea for baking blades into dance 😉
haughty mural
goated idea
tribal blade
it would be a huge change, they'd have to rework the whole talent tree
lavish nebula
ok i guess its just luck then if it happens 😄
vale pine
it would also make premed a lot less practical
tribal blade
ok i guess its just luck then if it happens 😄
you'll see it more if you dance without skyfury
vestal escarp
it basically kills premed and other stuff like craft but yeah
tribal blade
yeah half the talents wouldn't work anymore
vestal escarp
it goes into the suggestions jar
worn cape
The clones hit 1s after anyway
Do the clones more damage than your first sectech hit?
tribal blade
actually i was overestimating how many talents would need changes, def not half
tribal blade
Do the clones more damage than your first sectech hit?
yes
haughty mural
Do the clones more damage than your first sectech hit?
yes
most of sectechs dmg comes from clones
tribal blade
first hit of sectec is not very big
vale pine
clones are shadow damage
worn cape
Yeah, than the blades delay totally makes sense.
keen dome
Do the clones more damage than your first sectech hit?
I believe the majority of SecTec is our purple friends
vale pine
so they:
- ignore armor
- get amped by shadow damage amps
haughty mural
isnt it like 80% of sectech is clone dmg ?
keen dome
Which is why, back in DF, we had the funny issue of logs putting Akaari's Soul (The clones) as their own entity and not attributing them to the rogue
Which resulted in massively, comically skewed Sub logs
vestal escarp
75 iirc
haughty mural
yea 75
worn cape
Which is why, back in DF, we had the funny issue of logs putting Akaari's Soul (...
omg, ofc that happened to sub 😂
tribal blade
Which is why, back in DF, we had the funny issue of logs putting Akaari's Soul (...
that shit is still happening now /cry
happens on bloodbound, queen
can't remember if there's another boss
keen dome
Yeah, anywhere where we split up and it logs it weirdly
tribal blade
but if you're not on the same phase/platform group with the person logging you lose all the akaari's soul damage during that time
keen dome
It should be one hit
worn cape
just don't see the clones as pets and attribute the damage to the sectech ability instead. 🤷♀️
haughty mural
all of our stuff shoul be one hit
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/cat-cute-cat-yap-yapper-yapping-gif-5642199211123099306
yApPeRz
keen dome
impossible
leaden prairie
vestal escarp
erm zac
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/cat-cute-cat-yap-yapper-yapping-gif-5642199211123099306
here's my guild's chat channels
we got a fort yappers in there
vestal escarp
why outlaw doing crazy overall on ptr?
keen dome
Hahaha
tribal blade
frfr
keen dome
"Locked in and Dead" goes hard
vestal escarp
ol season?
vestal escarp
nuh uh
keen dome
sub season
vestal escarp
check again
tribal blade
something something target cap
keen dome
My data tells me that Sub is going to be the best.
barren wolf
yo show me numbers
worn cape
We need to seem active in case new people join 
barren wolf
of ptr
lilac stag
Fury C tier. Target cap.
vestal escarp
doctored clip
barren wolf
sure buddy the dungeon with big pulls wont favor outlaw
vestal escarp
i sleep
barren wolf
woa
barren wolf
now go into theater
leaden prairie
vestal escarp
or
leaden prairie
outlaw is so bad in theater
vestal escarp
now go into theater
or you know, just the pull after
barren wolf
or go in workshop
leaden prairie
people forget outlaw isnt good in low target count dungeon anymore
you need perma 5/8 targets
lilac stag
tribal blade
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx1Astj0olDZE4qYSbmowpDrNam6Eo2uPB?si=kr-jqL-zQDC3ykB...
i was thinking "that's not bad, outlaw's blasting" and then i realized that's the sub rogue
leaden prairie
leaden prairie
i was thinking "that's not bad, outlaw's blasting" and then i realized that's th...
ye
tribal blade
deadge
vestal escarp
people forget outlaw isnt good in low target count dungeon anymore
untrue and sandbagging
leaden prairie
or go in workshop
but why would i do that
sub does more
in every scenario
then you get to a big uncapped pull and outlaw does under tank
barren wolf
ok buddy
tribal blade
damn that's so tragic
lilac stag
You press killing spree on cd
vestal escarp
and die
lilac stag
Nah
leaden prairie
ye forgot to add you have to play trickster if you wanna do max dam
barren wolf
i will play the premium aoe pad spec, assa
lilac stag
Just puke from motion sickness
tribal blade
KS is so troll
leaden prairie
will wait for people to plauy killing spree in keys
actually yuou can watch the vid till first boss
barren wolf
ccant happen to me
leaden prairie
i press ks once
vestal escarp
i will play the premium aoe pad spec, assa
you mean super ethical funnel spec assa?
barren wolf
you mean super ethical funnel spec assa?
hey, if you can get adds on a fight, its blastinnn
poooooooooooggggggggggg
otherwise, fighting the tank
and losing some of the time
lilac stag
you mean super ethical funnel spec assa?
No they mean where is my ST damage ethical aoe spec.
leaden prairie
assa losing to tank in st
vestal escarp
it's called being balanced
lilac stag
Mmhm
leaden prairie
being outside flag is litteraly impossible
lilac stag
Entire season 1 assa was bis. It still will be at current tuning.
leaden prairie
flag last what
30s almost
and its 1min 30 cd
so you have 1 min downtime ?
so what
vestal escarp
leaden prairie
wait 1 min
lilac stag
sub makes people dizzy more than killing spree
leaden prairie
you have flag every pack
lilac stag
Numbers are hard
leaden prairie
if packs last 90s sure
press start of pack 1
lilac stag
Please let me restealth for 6 seconds
vestal escarp
yup
leaden prairie
pack 1 last 40s, then 10 s downtime, then 40s pack again
vestal escarp
press flag end of pack 2 with 2 mobs left at 7% hp
leaden prairie
boom double flag
leaden prairie
press flag end of pack 2 with 2 mobs left at 7% hp
mobs are at 100% cause you are doing tank damage
the pack dies when you decide it dies
vestal escarp
true actually
lilac stag
press flag end of pack 2 with 2 mobs left at 7% hp
Sounds like outlaw no CDs concept.
vestal escarp
Sounds like outlaw no CDs concept.
i asked in ol channel a bunch of times in df s3 if pressing vanish and adr at end of pack was troll
it isnt
leaden prairie
why would it be troll
fierce minnow
where can i find the current simc list of spec ST sims?
leaden prairie
adr stays in stealth
barren wolf
youre literally french
leaden prairie
fierce minnow
like all specs and classes
leaden prairie
youre literally french
im litteraly not
lilac stag
where can i find the current simc list of spec ST sims?
Simc website.
leaden prairie
im american
vestal escarp
same ong
leaden prairie
vestal escarp
🦅 
lilac stag
I’m Canadian
vestal escarp
stars and spangles
lilac stag
fierce minnow
Simc website.
https://www.simulationcraft.org/ this one?
barren wolf
whats your favorite food
lilac stag
https://www.simulationcraft.org/ this one?
That would be the simc website
leaden prairie
huge one
vestal escarp
roasted turkey with gravy and mashed potatoes
vestal escarp
it's just fries
lilac stag
Freedom Fries fraud
barren wolf
ILL BUST YOUR ASSSSSSSSSS
leaden prairie
FRENCH FRIES
thats the name cuh
vestal escarp
@fierce minnow if you're asking for a list of what all specs are simming for ST right now we might not have that resource
barren wolf
im 100% pure bred romanian