sub is like THE definition of ebb and flow as well
#subtlety
uneven scarab
swift tinsel
It keeps gameplay interesting in combat
uneven scarab
As far as wow specs go
swift tinsel
And it keeps the game on a macro level from being too stale and you don’t feel as tied to needing to play every day
molten citrus
i do think things have gone too far
especially with the hero trees
things like everyone having so many stops, kicks, defensives, mobility etc
uneven scarab
i think it wouldve been simpler if they just designed the trees around the specs
molten citrus
modifiers out the wazoo
uneven scarab
Instead of trying to make it work for two
Less frustration on making it work for more than 1 spec
uneven scarab
Filler talents are def issues on some specs yeah
minor aurora
Is sub considered one of the more difficult but also rewarding specs for rogue? or is it just an alternative play style that’s effective?
swift tinsel
Kinda
uneven scarab
Arms Warrior and sub come to mind with filler talents
uneven scarab
Is sub considered one of the more difficult but also rewarding specs for rogue? ...
I think the difficulty is relative in rogue
swift tinsel
And is not hand-holdy at all
Unlike some specs where you can work out how it plays just from reading some tooltips
swift tinsel
Your cooldown windows are pretty straight forward but that’s about it
In between cooldown windows you need to learn and feel out when you can and can’t use sod/dance
Which for some people is hard to grasp or they don’t wanna put in the work to learn
uneven scarab
Is sub considered one of the more difficult but also rewarding specs for rogue? ...
outlaw is high apm and requires good reactions to procs, sub is all about knowing your cdr and planning ahead for when to use cooldowns, assa is a maintenance spec keeping up your bleeds/buffs
They all have their difficulties but id say sub requires the most time on the spec to really master it
minor aurora
outlaw is high apm and requires good reactions to procs, sub is all about knowin...
Ohh okay.
minor aurora
Yeah I picked sub hoping it’d be more of the, really short but huge DPS timings
uneven scarab
It is
swift tinsel
But it is insanely fun to play as trickster
uneven scarab
Sub is a nuke
minor aurora
So I picked right
uneven scarab
In cooldowns
minor aurora
perfect
uneven scarab
you sure did
swift tinsel
When you nail your cooldown windows no one can touch you
minor aurora
now I just need to level AND git gud
swift tinsel
Then you can kinda chill
minor aurora
Trying to learn actual WoW and sub has been a bit of a challenge with all the cooldowns
uneven scarab
go back to chilling
minor aurora
but it’s been fun
uneven scarab
the wowhead rotation visuals were SUPER important in helping me learn
they’re very nice
Simplifies it quite a bit
minor aurora
the wowhead rotation visuals were SUPER important in helping me learn
omg yeah, I had them linked me to me earlier
they’re so good
minor aurora
and then I can just associate the symbols with my keybinds
so it just becomes remembering the order of letters for me
stoic walrus
Anyone that can explain why my backstab generates 1 combo point sometimes and max other times gets 1 forehead kiss
uneven scarab
shadowcraft
stoic walrus
omg yeah, I had them linked me to me earlier
Where dis
stoic walrus
https://tenor.com/view/eternal-love-ten-miles-of-peach-blossom-yang-mi-mark-chao-ye-hua-gif-26453737
Also wtf is this shit
Bro clicked his way to a 98 parse 😂
Not a single key bind
thin lion
Is there a cata rogue discord?
spark tusk
!wa The Combo Points aura in my pack has an option to disable the default combo points. Though, looks like you found a solution for yourself
meager quiver
hey guys i gonna swap to sub i am so bad give me luck :C
spark tusk
Is there a cata rogue discord?
Check out #classic-discussion pins
stoic walrus
that hurts me
Makes me want to swap to assas tbh
uneven scarab
assas is fun
stoic walrus
Looks ALOT more straight forward than sub
lethal yew
It is. Your cds always come up at the same time and you use them in the same order
minor aurora
sounds boring 
no flame
uneven scarab
Dungeons
meager quiver
!macros
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.Well when I left the game in dragon flight my guild was AoTC and now they are a CE guild lol. Might need to play something more simple to get decent parses and get a spot back in the main raid roster
minor aurora
Just practice it on dummies
ill probably do this soon asw
uneven scarab
It’ll come to you
minor aurora
just tryna run dungeons and play more of the actual game first 
uneven scarab
ye ye understandable
stoic walrus
Also me being 594 ilvl doesn’t help much lol
minor aurora
5hr 55min on /played atm lol - started yesterday
stoic walrus
ye ye understandable
Does your 4set bonus swap when you change spec or do you need different gear?
uneven scarab
swaps on spec change
stoic walrus
Perfect! I’ll be trying assas when I get home then
Because that video looked like full autopilot basically lol
uneven scarab
Assas is pretty slow paced
so im not surprised he was able to click his way to a 98
stoic walrus
Perfect because if I gotta run that for a short time to earn a raid spot back then re-learn sub
Totally ok with that
wheat elk
!wa The Combo Points aura in my pack has an option to disable the default combo ...
yeah , anyway appreciate it tho
vestal escarp
solemn creek
that clicking guy cant do more then green on sikran mythic
so dont go thinking u can click and be fine.. lol
vestal escarp
With practice even clickers can play good
With practice you can even /cast your rotation
random hare
@hazy breach sub is still good in m+
uneven scarab
@random hare outlaw is still good in m+
random hare
vestal escarp
@random hare sin still good in m+
random hare
@Zerossman the Soup Seller sin still good in m+
i think once they fix the bugs
with tier
and 2 set just not getting dropped that often
it'll be viable in high keys
holy shit tho
cold blood hits hard as fuck
lmao
tea is mega bait
masterbaiter talent
uneven scarab
It always has been
tepid trellis
shocker
uneven scarab
random hare
uneven scarab
Turns out critting an ability that hits for like 10 million damage
vestal escarp
uneven scarab
Is alot more damage!
molten citrus
i tried to tell you
tepid trellis
Turns out critting an ability that hits for like 10 million damage
its more like 60
molten citrus
tepid trellis
you could try dropping rotten for Finality
vestal escarp
<@83652604344664064>
Pick EE and premed
tepid trellis
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
random hare
no idea whats EE cuh
vestal escarp
Leftmost third row
tepid trellis
left?
vestal escarp
Uuuuuh
tepid trellis
tepid trellis
vestal escarp
😭
slate marlin
Premed is good, tornado bad
slate marlin
He has veiltouched
uneven scarab
Oh ok ya
vale pine
like the details skin
steel zinc
mind sharing your details profile looks nice!
vale pine
you could use a diffrent font to fix the i assume asian symbols
random hare
you could use a diffrent font to fix the i assume asian symbols
oh
maybe
idk
still the same
vale pine
think the font aurora uses includes more unicode symbols, unsure which one you use
jaunty heath
you could try dropping rotten for Finality
Do we play around finality at all? Like do you send a second rupture when it’s buffed?
jaunty heath
Yeah, I guess you just try and avoid ever having it buff rupture
tepid trellis
not really
hazy breach
Theyre seperate
tepid trellis
Rupture just doesent take away tier set stacks
hazy breach
Theres a BP one, an eviscerate one and a rupture one. Buffs that is
gritty gorge
<@83652604344664064>
trickster gone in 11.1 in keys?
tepid trellis
and yeah finality is seperate of each ability
hazy breach
Its not "your next finisher does more damage"
After pressing evis, your next evis does more damage, after pressing rupture the next rupture does more etc
jaunty heath
Ohhhh, I see. That’s easy then yeah
random hare
trickster gone in 11.1 in keys?
no
literally the same as live
nothing changed
just new tier set
leaden prairie
vale crane
Sub going wild?
north kite
Sub going wild?
no
minor aurora
5 fucking billion damage 💀
haughty mural
nice details skin
vale crane
what key was it?
cedar eagle
how many targets do you swap to BP as main finisher?
steel zinc
deplete run, on a clean run would do way more i think
Als this is with bis gear
What are you sclaed up to?
max?
uneven scarab
how many targets do you swap to BP as main finisher?
Trickster is 5+ and ds is 2+
cedar eagle
Havent played Sub in a bit, gonna test it on PTR today. Are we thinking trick or DS feels better on PTR?
kind bluff
Zeros, was that is DS or trickster
open crystal
one ptr ?
thin lion
dont tell me sub is fixed?
random hare
dont tell me sub is fixed?
fixed to do way less dps
now its bugged in a way where it does less dps
xdd
random hare
surely we get a fix
thin lion
seriously, I would have been more happy if it were fixed and do less dmg because it is intended rather than through a bug
random hare
well we got a fix because it did good dmg
now we wont get a fix because its bugged to do less dps
because u know
blizzard
xd
thin lion
fixed to do way less dps
but you still slapped, mind shring ur talents or was it the standard trickster setup?
sharing*
cedar eagle
yeah would love to see the talent/gear setup you had
random hare
CUQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmGzYMmxYmZ8AzMzMMmtZBjtlZmxMzMgxysNAAAAMDG2MLzY2mhxCDLzsMtQLzCmB
random hare
no i didnt play rotten
uneven scarab
Did u swap it out for finality?
random hare
y
thin lion
most importanly did it feel good to play or was it clunky or smth?
thin lion
in what way?
uneven scarab
Neither of them really change gameplay
its just different forms of increased damage
vale crane
sub being decent would be enough for me i dont want to play another season of sin
uneven scarab
Sub was good this season
thin lion
yeah good but I think if u dont really care about the spec in itself, there was little to no reason to play sub over assa
strange sail
deathstalker?
twilit phoenix
uneven scarab
tell that to zeross 
cedar eagle
CUQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmGzYMmxYmZ8AzMzMMmtZBjtlZmxMzMgxysNAAAA...
i saw casual rocking the mast flask, but others are using vers. whatd you like
random hare
mastery for keys
cedar eagle
thanks brotha
crisp lion
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
lunar bluff
i just realized i was doing my ptr keys with no improved shuriken storm
hm!
now why would i do that?
vale pine
now why would i do that?
happens, its ptr so i wouldn't worry
haughty mural
vestal escarp
shell willow
Do we have any preliminary sims for the three specs for s2? I'm hoping sub is the play.
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
shell willow
Thanks @vale pine
vestal escarp
TOP ring made it to bis 
alpine wraith
signet should still be very good for a long time
and better in most content just more rng
vestal escarp
shouldnt signet lose to ilvl?
kind bluff
TOP ring made it to bis <:skull:1121119354260562100><:skull:1121119354260562100>...
Has a bis been figured out yet?
alpine wraith
if you get 7k mastery proc in dance
it is good
problem is
welcome to the 🎰 raid
over 100000 pulls bone band will do more dps because you will have many rat ass cuck pulls where signets does not proc anything good in cds
for the whole fight
I LOVE RNG I LOVE DOING THE SAME THING AND DOING DOUBLE DMG
alpine wraith
i actually like top quite a bit
used to farm it for tertiary
drops 3 good rings
and pants/chest
and now even the grim codex trink is decent
vestal escarp
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
random comet
I mean, you can read the pins for more context
It’s clearly broken though so the real question is “how long do we wait for a fix?”
vestal escarp
I mean, you can read the pins for more context
erm pin says myth ilvl takes over
random comet
Yes. The context is “it’s broken” though
tidal marsh
And it'll get tuned
hazy breach
It does what it says it does
random comet
So if you had to raid today, go 2+2. Thankfully we don’t 😅
hazy breach
It just sucks
random comet
I’m using “broken” in the “so bad it can’t remain like this” sense lol
tidal marsh
I like how we apparently use "broken" for really good and really bad now
random comet
Good news is 2+2 isn’t bad so week one you’ll still be upgrading even if they are slow
tidal marsh
Why use many word when few word do trick
shell willow
I wonder if there is any gaming or further optimization on the s2 t2 and t4 piece.
tidal marsh
viral girder
Might race change to Void Elf.
Cooler than blood elves, Half Transmog Costs, AND I get bonus shadow damage for sub
hazy breach
The bonus damage doesnt work at all btw
viral girder
Half of the cost of transmogs is the big one.
viral girder
The bonus damage doesnt work at all btw <:garf:1320173032743899157>
Oh come on
What the fuck blizzard
ITS A SHADOW SPEC THAT DOES SHADOW DAMAGE
How does the bonus damage not count.
hazy breach
I was referring to the proc
uneven scarab
The velf proc yeah
midnight river
in CDs do I chain the dances or wait with the second dance until sec tech comes of cooldown?
hazy breach
Chain. otherwise you end up wasting your trinket and blades
And sectech is gonna come up inside dance anyway
Just delay symbols until sectech has 10s left
viral girder
Dance is usually up when ever you secret technique anyways
Atleast in my experience
Even with chaining it
Wait.. Dance not Symbols
Symbols is up when I need to tech
Confusing my skils
sly shore
@vale pine do on use secondary stats DR
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> do on use secondary stats DR
wdym
the sim does consider dr
oh sorry i missread
actually not sure, but i assume it also drs
hazy breach
Yes
sly shore
so if I go over DR limit for mastery by using Skardyn's, that mastery is DR
kind bluff
What's the Dr limit?
swift tinsel
caps out at 50% iirc
with attainable gear levels. I think it can get to 100% but its impossible to get enough stats for that
viral girder
So before I waste time really trying to get an AoE spec... whats the difference between it and the single target?
Because subs , and just rogue in general seems... very "single target, with some skills cleaving"
swift tinsel
You pick up Imp Storm
some folks opt into Shuriken Tornado
but its not a very well-liked ability
uneven scarab
Yeah sub doesnt change much from st to aoe
tacit aspen
current patch, if i have FW up whats the target count where i want to BP? and for 11.1 same question
molten citrus
don't think next season's stuff has been fully cooked yet
tacit aspen
i didnt see it on the wowhead guide
molten citrus
click the "rotation" on the left side
shell willow
rotation gives parameters for when to use per situation
tacit aspen
thanks ya
celest iron
I just started playing sub, last boss NW the mob downstairs starts evading every time i get sent down
This only happens as sub, has anyone else noticed this behavior?
celest iron
hmm
shell willow
Stealth > gain resource/shadowstrike > (flag), get buffs out/evicerate > restealth/vanish > gain resource/shadowstrike > burst rotation afterwards
If you break down the components of why you are doing things it makes it pretty clear
I wouldnt harp on overall in m+ at low gear levels. Get the intricacies of the rotation down and the damage will come especially when you get more gear.
cobalt cedar
all the cds seem pretty short too. so i should prolly use those on cd?
hazy breach
Yesnt
swift tinsel
using cd's efficiently will improve your damage a lot
cobalt cedar
but its confusing
hazy breach
Not sure if its helping
swift tinsel
Oof, yeah
swift tinsel
not using cd's outside of bosses is going to gimp your damage
hazy breach
Sub plays different than most specs, would recommend to read over the guides multiple times and hit dummies to get more comfortable.
cobalt cedar
yeh ive been smacking the dummies for 10 mins or so now and looking for a good guide
hazy breach
!guide
sick jackal
Hitting a dummy doesn't hurt engrain the rotation into your muscle memory.
this hit so hard
cobalt cedar
so trickster and deathstalker are pretty different too. one you have to play around and the other is more of a passive thing
shell willow
Neither is passive, in the sense that you have to react to different buffs and debuffs and slightly change your playstyle
hazy breach
Slightly yes, but the absolutely main thing about sub is cooldown timing
Which does not change noticeably with hero talents
cobalt cedar
ahh ok.
it seems harder than assassination lol
im always energy starved so i gotta practice that more too
swift tinsel
!design
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
cobalt cedar
ohhh
swift tinsel
that's intentional
sick jackal
im always energy starved so i gotta practice that more too
thats always the case
swift tinsel
during your cooldowns you're effectively energy-capped all the time but outside of it you're meant to consume considerably less
cobalt cedar
i felt like i was doing something wrong.
swift tinsel
nah that's just the tradeoff
swift tinsel
Sub benefits a ton from encounter/dungeon knowledge of understanding when you can send your cooldowns and when to hold so they're up for bosses/difficult packs
which just comes with practice
cobalt cedar
for sure. i havent played a rogue till literally last week.
swift tinsel
the main goal is to have 2x symbols of death, shadow dance, and secret technique for every flagellation/shadow blades window
cobalt cedar
and i havent done many dungeons this season cuz i took a break for irl so not much experience
uneven scarab
Its all about the cooldowns for sub
Press them everytime you can atleast get nearly full value and youll be alright
steel zinc
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you...
Sub with the new tier has nearly the dps variance as outlaw. I think this should be also considered
Just different then to this tier
broken swallow
wait, why is sub variance going up?
marsh magnet
!wa
rapid kelp
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
tribal blade
Tier set has more randomness to it
shy orbit
so hows subtlety for S2
tribal blade
it was looking to be mega busted because of bugs so everyone was on the sub wagon
and now it's not looking to be mega busted because of bugs so everyone is off the sub wagon
we've been complaining about lack of theme with sub, but our theme was bugs all along 😉
i love the fact that i said a week ago "we're having old bugs fixed and getting new ones introduced"
final holly
Should be allowed to wield polearms so you can truly be the insect glaive spec
tribal blade
that means we could mog 1 handers!
brisk onyx
i love the fact that i said a week ago "we're having old bugs fixed and getting ...
Haha interesting
chrome palm
did coup always have an animation/sound on ptr?
hazy breach
i love the fact that i said a week ago "we're having old bugs fixed and getting ...
Nah the bug was there before too.
There was just so few things that actually worked with the set on their initial release that it was harder to spot
tribal blade
There was just so few things that actually worked with the set on their initial ...
haha naturally
well it's release candidate for sure
celest iron
Why don’t we want to macro cold blood + secret tech?
i’ve always done this and never noticed an issue
hazy breach
Because you often end up not having it for your flag+blades
If you have it macroed
And having it during your major cds (especially on the second hit) is way more important than on the small dances
tacit coral
!sims
wicked joltBOT
Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
lilac stag
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tardy badge
When im AoEing do i have to tab target to spread ruptures?
or can i just beat the shit outta 1 thing so spread ruptures around?
young mural
**Rogue Spreadsheet - [Light Version](<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/...
why are most, if not all sims here outdated/broken?
young mural
When im AoEing do i have to tab target to spread ruptures?
yes
tardy badge
kkty
young mural
you waste too many combo points if you're spamming rupture into 1 target in order to make it spread to another one
tardy badge
o7
tacit coral
should you always do a single target when u have really begun your rotation since flawless form is active?
young mural
should you always do a single target when u have really begun your rotation sinc...
Yhea, ST rotation for AOE when flawless form is active
and btw flawless form should always be active
tacit coral
how often is flawless form active tho is it always active
ahh that answers my question
except for at the start of a rotation right?
before any sec tech has been sent off
while ur spreading ruptures i mean
young mural
Yhea, shuriken storm for building combo points for applying ruptures in AOE opener
then you need to backstab or shadowstrike once to get flawless form up
for nimble flurry
tacit coral
so you dont start a pull with a shadowstrike regardless of stealth?
young mural
i mean you can do that, it would already keep your flawless form up
i usually use shuriken/shadowstrike depending on situation
generally open with shadowstrike for the teleport on to the target
but its not too relevant
tacit coral
between shadow blades how many shadow dances do u expend besides the first two in the shadow dance window
cuz thats what im getting hung up on
i find i have sec tech back up
20 sec before flagellation
young mural
you should always be building combo points with shuriken storm if 2 or more targets, but always remember to backstab or shadowstrike once in a while to keep flawless form up
hey you know much more than this about me answer him please graham
tribal blade
should always open with strike so you gain a stack of flawless, get nimble running and get 1 stack of UB to build up to coup
young mural
hey you know much more than this about me answer him please graham
what the fuck did i try to type here what the fuck
young mural
should always open with strike so you gain a stack of flawless, get nimble runni...
yhea i knew i was passing off shit info
tribal blade
between shadow blades how many shadow dances do u expend besides the first two i...
so long as you have x2 dances and x2 symbols up for your next cd set you're golden
so it depends
tribal blade
yhea i knew i was passing off shit info
haha nah it's all good 😉
swift tinsel
Depending on your cdr you’re pretty safe to stop sending dance when flag has 40-45 sec left on its cooldown. In st at least
Sectech at 20, sod depends on how many charges you have atm
novel plaza
any rotational changes ?
tribal blade
it's usually on pull x2 dance x2 symbols with cds, then you can x2 dances with symbols, then x1 symbols w/ sectec before next cd set
but then the next rotation after cd set 2 will be different
because you won't have enough symbols charges to do the same thing
whole abyss
Subtlety the play next season? Did you all see the % increase in damage for each spec for 2 and 4 set?
tacit coral
because you won't have enough symbols charges to do the same thing
so at that point do u just hold your sec tech instead of sending without dance?
since there are no sod?
kind bluff
Subtlety the play next season? Did you all see the % increase in damage for each...
Nope, got a link to it?
harsh socket
!guide
tribal blade
so at that point do u just hold your sec tech instead of sending without dance?
you can send dry sectec so long as it'll be back up for your next cd set
so ~20 secs before your cds come back up
i just did 2 heroic queens without skyfury
now i have skyfury again and the difference is insane
worthy pulsar
sub picking shuriken storm for m+ in 11.1?
chrome palm
Its baseline
tribal blade
sub picking shuriken storm for m+ in 11.1?
if you mean nado it's not mandatory
not unless there's some cdr requirements we can meet to farm more cdr for dances
tacit coral
just checking some sims and it seems like treacherous transmitter even at heroic level is better than all trinkets on sub
is that true?
i also checked some logs of players playing trickster, and they had their eviscerate do 40% of their damage while my eviscerate was 20%
is that treacherous transmitter at work?=
tribal blade
just checking some sims and it seems like treacherous transmitter even at heroic...
yes transmitter is mandatory as sub
tacit coral
that explains the horrid damage i have been dealing
tribal blade
well it's not going to COMPLETELY be the reason why
tacit coral
hahahahah ofc
tribal blade
but yeah it'll have an impact
tacit coral
i was playing with a friend who is sub main, i couldnt log above 85 even though i was convinced i was doing the rotation correctly
ulgrax i logged 98 but that might just be cuz ulgrax is a little peculiar in logs
tribal blade
logs are not super accurate in terms of performance
because there are so many things out of your control
like kill timings, if you get mechanics, if you have fury warrs that blow up adds, etc
tacit coral
oh yeah absolutely just as an indicator i meant, my damage graph looked similar to the ones i mentioned before where my friend with transmitter had much more evisc damage than i did
similar ilvl same kill time same rotation but trinket difference and also he went deathstalker
but deathstalker cant possibly account for as large of a difference in dps
tribal blade
oh yeah if he's deathstalker he's gonna do WAY more evis damage than you
as trickster
because of darkest night
tribal blade
but deathstalker cant possibly account for as large of a difference in dps
deathstalker is technically more ST damage
just completely aids to play
tacit coral
oh yeah if he's deathstalker he's gonna do WAY more evis damage than you
ye but dps would be comparable right?
tribal blade
ye but dps would be comparable right?
if you look at ST logs DS gaps trickster
tacit coral
how big of a dps difference does transmitter account for
and why do all guides recommend trickster if highest ranked sub rogue players go for a cheeky deathstalker build
hollow snow
how big of a dps difference does transmitter account for
a shitload
tacit coral
are we talking several 100k's
hollow snow
and why do all guides recommend trickster if highest ranked sub rogue players go...
deathstalker has received buffs throughout the patch but as graham said, pure aids. tldr: ST deathstalker
i personally dont think it's that bad coming from sin rogue but YMMV
hollow snow
you dont get the benefit of the cdr on sectech, have a chance to lose your mark if a boss goes immune/have to swap targets frequently etc. but those are all things you can remedy yourself by preplanning having DN active when you know you're about to swap targets/go into intermissions
honestly play both & decide for yourself
tribal blade
yeah cdr, juggling mark and also needing to use DN at 7 CP
which sometimes in dance you don't get 7 CP so you have to strike again
it's incredibly awkward
marble ledge
Is Secret Technique doing more damage than Eviscerate a bad sign
No because it's over the long run in an M+ and I'm an idiot
alpine wraith
happens
marble ledge
all is well lol
keen verge
Is Sub looking to be the best spec in s2? 😮
frank musk
Is Sub looking to be the best spec in s2? 😮
The best spec that will be played by less then 1% of the wow population, if you take the statistics as gospel.
We technically dont exist, were just that subtle.
keen verge
Haha atleast its fitting 😂 But out of the rogue specs sub is looking best as ive understood?
frank musk
Sub is always best, even if it isnt. But since i love sub alot i am biased.
If you look at the pure numbers sure, if you look at the fact our set bonus ends up being the most helpful for us then again yes.
If you look at the ammount of bugs being fixed, then again yes. If you look at the sec tech feature you begin to suspect blizzard is scared of sub rogues.
Tho i look forward to all the cardgame jokes i can make with the new BiS trinket.
dagger in one hand, a winning hand in my other. the house always crits.
alpine wraith
sub is good at doing burst but the complexities and because it plays differently that most specs just dont click with a lot of people
keen verge
Well ive beeing playing assa and outlaw to 8/8m, so i guess its time i give sub a go now then!
And, a burst spec is always more fun than a flatline one tbh
frank musk
that and the fact most people hate reading or testing things.
frank musk
Well ive beeing playing assa and outlaw to 8/8m, so i guess its time i give sub ...
Competing with the tank on single target as sin in mythic+ also lost its novelty ages ago.
keen verge
Yeah, love it wheb tanks pull pack with boss tho 😂
keen verge
U mean like every key, even if ur in fking premade and u call it out before? Yes
frank musk
yep
my friend always waits because he loves having rogues in his team. he understands our pain.
i am lucky on that friend.
keen verge
He is a keeper
frank musk
Sure is
He is staying.
I got a pocket tank.
Rogue with a pocket tank, and pocket sand to blind people. Life is good.
vale pine
pocket sand can hit multiple targets tho^^
frank musk
Thats the best part.
I was so happy when they made blind a traited aoe... the joys of sharing pocket sand.
hazy breach
Well ive beeing playing assa and outlaw to 8/8m, so i guess its time i give sub ...
Burst is indeed more fun 
random hare
OUTLAW ROGUE OF THE RAVENHOLDT, THE UNDISPUTED, UNCONTESTED, UNDEFEATED YAPPER OF THE WOOOORRLLLDDD ZEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSS THE YAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
hazy breach
Which is why the new tier set is so good, just straightup big burst
alpine wraith
yea makes the bug look silly
unbugged sec tech 17m per hit
bugged sec tech 7m whoops
or something like that
tribal blade
i think your prophecy is gonna come true
we go into next tier kinda mid
they finally fix tier set, boom we're suddenly cruising
maybe after some cheeky buffs inbetween 😉
tulip gorge
idk about buffs, if anything they might actually nerf the tier set
doesn't sub gain something ridiculous like 30% damage from 4p?
hazy breach
With the amount of burst we have i cant imagine sub being bad unless its criminally undertuned, but it definitely does not look like it is.
alpine wraith
yea if they fix tier set we will be very strong first weeks
hazy breach
doesn't sub gain something ridiculous like 30% damage from 4p?
~25%, but yes
Assuming it works as expected
alpine wraith
then the other real specs will come online and we back to mid
tulip gorge
25% is absolutely ridiculous
hazy breach
Which is current does not
alpine wraith
but burst is still valuable
tulip gorge
other specs are at 8-10%
marble ledge
dumb question but does higher ilvl weapon always go in main hand
hazy breach
other specs are at 8-10%
Shadow and aug gives more than subs 
alpine wraith
rn we are in a jailer raid mode kinda we get tier set and we already have strong trink and get weapon from first week craft
hazy breach
dumb question but does higher ilvl weapon always go in main hand
Yes
alpine wraith
so first week we catapult like 40%+ in power
hazy breach
Offhand ilvl is almost meaningless, its the least impactful slot
tulip gorge
Shadow and aug gives more than subs <:kek:365510869557444628>
I pray they nerf aug into the ground
alpine wraith
maybe we get some panik
tulip gorge
I am so sick and tired of the stupid lizards being meta
alpine wraith
aug is cool
tulip gorge
while the average player is dogshit
alpine wraith
just not many specs are cool like that
worn cape
they finally fix tier set, boom we're suddenly cruising
Tierset is still bugged??
alpine wraith
yea
brisk onyx
There are many other specs that also have "Winning Streak!" tier set, but I don't know why Rogue always has bugs; in theory, the operating mode is the same, isn't it?
alpine wraith
we have shitty split dmg and pet things
vestal escarp
Gm
vale pine
gm nike
tribal blade
With the amount of burst we have i cant imagine sub being bad unless its crimina...
i think i got baited by the bandwagoners coming in here saying "sub is dead"
soft raft
Shadow and aug gives more than subs <:kek:365510869557444628>
Augs doesn't anymore since it got nerfed for being op 
Was 18% before
hazy breach
I have seen the shadow sims. But the sub number also assumes that the set will work
Which is hopefully the case, but you know
hazy breach
Surely it doesnt miss out on the 60% damage buff to our biggest hitting ability 2/3 of the time
soft raft
I have seen the shadow sims. But the sub number also assumes that the set will w...
Did you see them at the peak of bugs xdd it was around 48% for 3 days
hazy breach
soft raft
Now it's a much more reasonable number
hazy breach
Ye we love the alpha PTRs weve been getting
hazy breach
I think that the clones roll the 2p removal independently
hazy breach
Yes
soft raft
Classic
hazy breach
Because the pet is turbo janky and bugs out with almost all new effects they put into the game
soft raft
And I suppose they don't have dance up to stop the decrement, the player does
hazy breach
Like how the deathstalker talent that increases shadow damage by 30% after shadow blades buffs items
But doesnt buff secret technique
Because its a pet
hazy breach
Yes, as well as removing shadowed finisher
Which says its 30% of eviscerate, but its actually a seperate spell with its own modifiers
That they always forget to include
soft raft
I assume it's a pet because that was the easiest way they thought of originally to make it to the animation
But making it into a short duration buff that plays something would just work better and not break all the time
hazy breach
Ye but that takes time to fix 
soft raft
Which says its 30% of eviscerate, but its actually a seperate spell with its own...
:) oh one of those
soft raft
Ye but that takes time to fix <:shrugeg:1115674346120294591>
Unlucky maybe you'll get something after they finish mages
In 11 years
hazy breach
Is aug still playing the ~90s breath hero talent in raid btw
soft raft
It generates enough cdr to actually use it every 75
I'll sim it at 90 to see what happens with sub
hazy breach
I know its less about buffs nowadays and more about personal dps but still
soft raft
But the issue is not enough other 90s specs I think
It's actually like 68% buffs again
Stupid spec
hazy breach
Mb i guess
soft raft
Yeah you forgot to account for aug out scaling everyone
hazy breach
But the issue is not enough other 90s specs I think
Just play 2 sub 
soft raft
Despite getting no DPS from it's secondaries overall per ilvl as a raid gain aug is top
hazy breach
soft raft
Since it scales with it's own gear and the buffee gear
soft raft
Just play 2 sub <:YEP:898493128695222342>
Yeah it'll work
Ideally you have a third
Just not sure if it'll beat two minute jungle jam that is chrono
Which is just two aug buff stacking nonsense
At the very least buffing subs cd windows is going to be a gain whenever it lines up
And going to a different spec
hazy breach
Subs burst is really cracked now, its significantly higher than on live
So i cant imagine many other specs being close outside BL
soft raft
alpine wraith
problem is if it will work with sec tech at all
soft raft
Actually that's a point
alpine wraith
like breath of the eaons didnt work wiht it
soft raft
How fast is the opening burst
soft raft
Augs setup is annoyingly long
hazy breach
How fast is the opening burst
Opener is not nearly as strong as the other bursts because tier takes a bit to stack up
soft raft
you begin at like 5 secs now
Should be ok
hazy breach
But the biggest hit is like ~16s in
soft raft
I think the way I implemented eons should work properly with sektech
It does inherit pet damage
alpine wraith
you can rng to like 6-8 stacks on opener but it is very rare
soft raft
If it doesn't work ingame that's very stupid bug
hazy breach
I think they fixed it but not 100%
alpine wraith
havent played with an aug in a long while
soft raft
Mhm
alpine wraith
seems they have to manually add shit every time
hazy breach
Ye if the person logging is more than 100 yards away sectech doesnt get attributed correctly to the rogue in logs
soft raft
I can just log on ptr and you can hit secret technique in it ig
If it doesn't actually work that'll be big stupid
hazy breach
Here is a random log i pulled from deathea for example
Akaari's soul down there not contributing to the rogues damage 
soft raft
Are the pets just missing important data tf
hazy breach
Yep
alpine wraith
just missing lots of anchors
alpine wraith
likely when they made in bfa it was not well though of
or they had a diff pipeline
it worked fine back then
but then all things began krangling in SL
then df came and got omegabuffed to relevancy
and the problems never stopped
hazy breach
Are the pets just missing important data tf
Hey its not all bad, atleast they fixed shadow blades not working on sectech now in 11.1!
(which is part of why the burst is higher, but the tier is also very big)
soft raft
More specs should have big buttons like secret technique
Just preferably without the bugs
hazy breach
Its just sad that its split into 3 hits + shadow blades hits
If it was one big hit
That would be very juicy
hazy breach
When flag has less than 20-25 you stop eviscerating on ST ye
It didnt seem to particularly matter much if you spent cp or just held onto it and stacked shadow techniques for your burst
Just refresh rupture once so it doesnt fall of during burst
hazy breach
Although it feels a bit unholy to backstab at 7cp
You can use it on snd too
But it didnt really matter in sims
soft raft
If only you had an offgcd means of disposing of them
void hound
maybe kidney shot the boss just to feel something...
hazy breach
If only you had an offgcd means of disposing of them
I mean gcds is kinda whatever, we have no energy anyway
Were talking like 2 or max 3 finishers over those 25 seconds
tribal blade
When flag has less than 20-25 you stop eviscerating on ST ye
so this rule doesn't apply to solo dances yeah?
hazy breach
so this rule doesn't apply to solo dances yeah?
Correct
tribal blade
radical
hazy breach
On average in sims
But like, if you know you need some burst
It can still be worth ya know
hazy breach
The main thing that was interesting was that stacking up some sht was actually not bad
tribal blade
sub might actually become a big pad spec
hazy breach
(aka not finishing at all with like 10s left on flag)
soft raft
I mean gcds is kinda whatever, we have no energy anyway
Tru
tribal blade
it doesn't bork cdr too much?
tribal blade
but more burst more better yeah
soft raft
Less about the average performance in that case but about the highroll performance
hazy breach
You can also just always spender anyway and pray
Ye ofc, but losing +100% damage to sectech and +50% damage to your eviscerate right before your big burst
Is some horrendous shit
soft raft
Yep
Ain't worth it
But I expect there will be a log of it at some point on farm in the top 4
They'll just get lucky
hazy breach
Ye for sure
tribal blade
parsing as sub is gonna be a clown fiesta
whoever manages to go from dance to dance without resetting tier the longest wins
it's gonna be really hard to bridge the divide with good play against someone who's just getting god tier rolls and mega juicing every single dance
vestal escarp
Didnt you see that normal dances are that weak?
Play is gonna be just go into flag with highest stack you can
tribal blade
they are, but it's still a really big difference between low stack tier and high stack tier
hazy breach
Speaking of big burst window, surely they dont forget to nerf transmitter right?
tribal blade
it'll just depend on how close the 2 trinkets are
hazy breach
Shouldn't matter that much house of cards exists
House has more power budgeted towards the passive agi compared to transmitter
tribal blade
you'll still want to get house of cards anyways because it's bis for both sub and sin
soft raft
House has more power budgeted towards the passive agi compared to transmitter
Aye but higher ilvl item
hazy breach
it'll just depend on how close the 2 trinkets are
Really close at fully maxed out
tribal blade
Really close at fully maxed out
goddamn
vestal escarp
you'll still want to get house of cards anyways because it's bis for both sub an...
Sin is ko until eventual tuning
soft raft
What's the other slot, Sus energy like most people?
soft raft
Love delve trinkets
vestal escarp
Hm, bad imo but w/e
tribal blade
imagine everyone was so excited to go into next tier to stop using transmitter and we end up just using it for the first half of the tier anyways
hazy breach
What's the other slot, Sus energy like most people?
That or eye of kezan it seems
soft raft
Oh right kezan exists
hazy breach
But ye transmitter sims roughly equal to a 678 house of cards, as we do no damage outside cds anyway
tribal blade
that's so incredibly stupid
soft raft
Amazing design
What's the stupid rotating trinket
Was that every 30 or 60
E.g. lines up crit buff or doesn't
hazy breach
The icd crit one is 60
hazy breach
Firelands tinewalking has one with 1:45 icd 💀
soft raft
They fixed transmitter double on use this tier right
hazy breach
The lantern from siren Isle would be insane if it was higher ilvl
soft raft
I genuinely don't remember since I refuse to equip it
hazy breach
They fixed transmitter double on use this tier right
Yes it incurs a 30s cd instead of 20
So you cant line em up to have both at the exact same time
hazy breach
But if you have long cooldowns (like breath) you can use it earlier and have an on-use for most of it
soft raft
Just funny how lopsided subs damage has gotten
If you've got a profile toss it my way as long as it's mostly functional and I can check aug against it
Wouldn't be surprised if it's just stupid
hazy breach
Its currently around 65% of our damage in blades and it seems like its closer to 75-80% in 11.1
As trickster that is
soft raft
Two augs can provide approximately a 91% boost in damage to two players for a 13 second window
hazy breach
Sub doesnt care much about bl either
soft raft
Yeah used that fact back on amir when you could cd anytime
I got our subs to cd off time to bl
So I could have the aug buffs on the bloodlust classes and the sub
hazy breach
Hmm, its probably worth delaying pot until second burst when we have tier stacks
If you dont lose a cast ofc
hazy breach
Subs also playing maghar btw
soft raft
Chadhar orc
soft raft
Hmm, its probably worth delaying pot until second burst when we have tier stacks
Just use the alch trinket if it still exists to make the pot line up
Wouldn't be surprised though if what aug does is play 2m amp and buff sub on 0 and 6m
Obviously trying to buff your other 90s windows with the buffs it can just not the full buffs
That would get 2/5 in eons but would also provide bigger amps on the ones it catches
hazy breach
Ye makes sense
I suspect there will be mechanics where sub ends up holding for 2 mins anyway
magic ruin
Ayo what races have the best animations for Sub rogue? eviscerate animations are so different from race to race. I don't like the blood elf one, the transition from shadowstrike into eviscerate looks so buggy from some reason
dry plank
panda
tribal blade
i actually really like all the male orc animations, it's partly why i'm seriously considering going maghar next tier
that and the +1% dps
orcs throw their massive shoulders into everything, looks sick
keen dome
orcs are cool
clever delta
Maghar is stronger in new season or wgat
worn cape
Ayo what races have the best animations for Sub rogue? eviscerate animations ar...
Try buying the glamours or use the atomic recabsomething to change race on your rogue so you can see the animations for yourself.
I like the Goblin one, but you might not.
magic ruin
Try buying the glamours or use the atomic recabsomething to change race on your ...
I figured i could just create class trial to check them out, but thanks!
hazy breach
Maghar is stronger in new season or wgat
Slightly stronger than regular orc but not by much yes
clever delta
That's some change related to new season or
tribal blade
they buffed racials recently
worn cape
I figured i could just create class trial to check them out, but thanks!
I forgot those existed tbh 😂
worn cape
they buffed racials recently
Meanwhile, Goblin rocket still hits for nothing.
keen verge
Meanwhile, Goblin rocket still hits for nothing.
But its useful when u enter a non resetted Grim batol and need to run back!
versed terrace
Goblins MVP
worn cape
But its useful when u enter a non resetted Grim batol and need to run back!
what? I've never heared of this.
keen verge
what? I've never heared of this.
You can rocket over the destroyed bridges. Probably saves u like 10 seconds 😂
worn cape
Oh, I meant the damage rocket belt thing 😛
plush roost
I was fiddling with sub on ptr today, in m+ we don't play around tier right? Just ss bp spam
Feels wrong rupture spamming in aoe
And in ST with deathstalker, do you gamble and proc DN and hope you don't lose stacks anyway? Surely thats correct
Or have we dropped rupture spam altogether, I'm behind on the strats
hazy breach
Sims showed to only rupture only when flag has ~25s or so left on its cd
But thats on ST, havent looked much at aoe
And deathstalker seemed quite far behind (~3-4%) so didnt look much into that either yet
void hound
And deathstalker seemed quite far behind (~3-4%) so didnt look much into that ei...
god bless
hazy breach
Turns out the hero talent that focuses on big burst benefits from a tier set that focuses on big burst
void hound
im ready for the last minute "plague damage increased by 80%"
jolly pasture
Is coup animation fixed on ptr?
river snow
Playing outlaw and assa for season1. Really hard to align cooldowns ..
tame hearth
And deathstalker seemed quite far behind (~3-4%) so didnt look much into that ei...
On live or ptr?
alpine wraith
you can check some musings on the TC research for sub i found kinda that moving dances a bit makes it not krangle tier as much
so you kinda have cds on pull then a deadzone then a dance stop dance stop cds
so you dont have any chances to drop tier kinda from 5x secs to the second set of cds
sly shore
Would be nice if dance usage was kinda static
alpine wraith
one day man one day
sly shore
hazy breach
<:Despairge:1131531154542043209>
Tbf we are talking about like two finishers here
paper siren
is the tier set still bugged for sub?
hazy breach
Yes, per the pin
paper siren
i see thanks
worn cape
I wonder if they'll fix it before season 2 releases
alpine wraith
we can only hope
tepid trellis
very likely we see some fixes tmrw
alpine wraith
true that
hazy breach
For sure
tepid trellis
For sure
my heart sank today
booted up my pc and my power cable to my main monitor has given out
(thought it was the actual monitor)
tepid trellis
now i just gotta get a hold of asus, to get one from them
since the shop near me didn't wanna sell me just the power cable -.-
jolly pasture
Thats some apple service right there wtf
random hare
my heart sank today
my pc exploded 2 days ago
my heart drowned
powersupply only got fucked tho
plush roost
And deathstalker seemed quite far behind (~3-4%) so didnt look much into that ei...
Interest, I wonder if the 30% shadow amp after blades makes DS worth it in aoe scenarios
alpine wraith
ds has more problems
plush roost
Bro i just wanna make DS work haha
hazy breach
since the shop near me didn't wanna sell me just the power cable -.-
Bruh
hazy breach
Bro i just wanna make DS work haha
fallow nimbus
Doesn't your device use this with your countrys plug ofcourse?
plush roost
K this is gonna sound really cooked, but i just really like the Hunt them Down node. Idk why but passive whiteswing damage just makes my brain stir
alpine wraith
well there are things for everyone
hazy breach
It does sound really cooked indeed.
fallow nimbus
You are fried like stealthis cable
alpine wraith
yea
keen dome
my pc exploded 2 days ago
That sucks 😦
plush roost
So then, when do you press storm and when do you press shadowstrike on aoe as trickster, specifically after secret technique? How much do we value the flawless form stacks. I haven't been doing many sub keys so now I wanna get ahead of the curve just in case its the play
I guess more aptly, what target count
Ik bp at 5+ and all that
alpine wraith
you begin using bp at 4 targets and dance is quite easy to do you just strike sec tech storm bp
if you proc shadowcraft on that sec tech you evis because you still dont have FW on all targets
then just use 1 storm per dance yo keep fw up and bp instead of evis
the storm is the second builder in each dance first one is a strike then you just keep striking afterwards
