subtlety

[hazy breach]

Or risk doing zero damage in burst

[random hare]

like

going for just sectec

doesnt seem like something that pumps rly hard

i havent tested both enough

it was just me and zac

his sectech did alot

but my bp did alot more

and compensated that part

there's just not enough data rn anyways

[tepid trellis]

cant wait for prog tbh, those sectechs

[random hare]

dont think u guys simmed that either correct me if im wrong

[tepid trellis]

we dont have working tierset

so no

[grand wyvern]

sorry if i am blunt, what's the point of minmaxing a bugged status of the class that will disappear in 2 weeks?

[hazy breach]

I was critting 8M unbuffed on dummies

And thats 1 clone

And no blades damage

[tepid trellis]

[random hare]

sub is cracked

[tepid trellis]

0 point

[lilac stag]

No transmitter + Sectech 💥

[random hare]

i think i did 6m st

but

[tepid trellis]

its wasted effort

[random hare]

with a real build

not the bp build

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[tepid trellis]

just happens every ptr cycle people jump to the new hottest thing (bugged thing)

[random hare]

i burst 15m dps for like 30 seconds straight from 1 sectec on 3 mobs +them dying instantly afterwards

[lilac stag]

Shocking isn’t it

[tepid trellis]

and it always starts nonsense

[random hare]

i feel like sub might be the strongest st in the game rn

[lilac stag]

Maybe tier gets fixed tomorrow.

[upper rock]

do we pop shadowblades after flaggalation with buff or with flaggalation?

[drifting fable]

https://tenor.com/view/jack-tanamen-gecky-incorporeal-gif-21102682

[tepid trellis]

after sectech cast or after your first shadow strike

[lilac stag]

Hi skip

[drifting fable]

👋

[random hare]

i wonder

wait no i dont wonder

[upper rock]

why after sectec?

[tepid trellis]

doesnt work on it

[random hare]

i think they'll fix 2pc being perma up and not fix shadow dmg amp

[tepid trellis]

but it has more to do with the timing of it

[random hare]

just because that part is a dmg gain

and the other isnt

[tepid trellis]

you wanna consume premeditation before pressing blades

[upper rock]

oooooh okok ty !

[tepid trellis]

imagine the dmg it will do with a working 4 set tho

[random hare]

can u bp on st with first dance's window btw?

with deathstalker

or

[hazy breach]

The 4 set is working

[random hare]

for dm

[tepid trellis]

[hazy breach]

Its just the stack removal part thats bugged

Thats why permastacks does a lot of damage

[random hare]

isn't 2pc also doesnt buff shadow amps

or

did someone yap that part out

[hazy breach]

Well ye but thats expected

Most new things dont buff shadowed part of bp/evis

[tepid trellis]

that shit never works the first time they do stuff

[hazy breach]

None of it in deathstalker works for example

[random hare]

[hazy breach]

And we had to yell loudly about it on supercharger for them to fix it

[random hare]

if it does sub will probably be the best spec in the game by a mile

i guess

[hazy breach]

Then theyd nerf it

[tepid trellis]

well you are gonna loose infinite from not having 10 stacks 24/7

[random hare]

yea

think sub might just be a cancelled project afterall

back to sin ladies and gentlemen

[lilac stag]

[random hare]

wait that tier set doesnt even function at all

honestly if that part was for sin

the perma 10

sin would 100% be the strongest spec by a mile in the game

it wont even be close

[shrewd grail]

How the 4p suposed to work for sub ?

[random hare]

like sin is insanely good by itself without any tier set

in m+ atleast

[swift tinsel]

press dance, get 2 stacks instead of 1 per proc, can't reset, amps your shadow damage

[hazy breach]

That is how it works

Its just the 15% thing on 2p that doesnt work

Not all of it physical no

Shadowed finisher is shadow damage

[lilac stag]

Someone triggering the bot

[shrewd grail]

I cant see my message guess its me

[hazy breach]

Dont use bad words

[swift tinsel]

oh thought I was missing something lmao

[shrewd grail]

I said i have extra chromosome

But in 1 word

[hazy breach]

Dont try to evade the bot either

[shrewd grail]

Its RP tho

[lilac stag]

get RP muted

Ez

[worn cape]

I know DS is a taboo subject here, but what is the priority of using DN?
Like if DN is up, and rupture is about to fall off, it is better to save up to 7 CP to do DN and then refresh Rupture right?

[swift tinsel]

DN over all

[shrewd grail]

I hope sub project isnt cancel next season

[worn cape]

Even when flag is up?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[worn cape]

Damn. It just feels like it takes forever to build up 7 CP outside of cds.

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

[worn cape]

I am starting to understand why people hate this hero talent

[fallow nimbus]

As DS you don't want to spend much time with dn active

[upper rock]

i feel like im having really troublees with rotation in aoe scenarios, i do what the wowhead guide says tho 😄

[fallow nimbus]

All the passive dmg shit is mark only and you have no mark up with dn up

[worn cape]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[pine seal]

does anyone have the ptr talents?

ty <3

[molten citrus]

Same as live

[pine seal]

oh

[vale pine]

the patch is basically very similar to the current one

so if you played sub atm, you are good to go

[thin vessel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

What about when we get tier? The new playstyle with no evis and bp outside of cds is something new I guess

[hazy breach]

Not sure about aoe still, could still be worth

Since on ST were talking abour replacing 2, 3 or at the absolute maximum 4 eviscerates with essentially nothing

On Aoe its more like 10-15 bps

[steel zinc]

I think that highly depends on the route planing etc.

[hazy breach]

Like on average ofc, if you know a hard pull is coming up you wouldnt waste the stacks etc

[steel zinc]

AOE I mean

[hazy breach]

Ye i was moreso talking about sim scenarios

Similar to how you wouldnt use coup on a mob with 5% left before a big pull

[alpine wraith]

problem with tier is the diff on pull having it vs not having is so big

[steel zinc]

I think Dungeon Slice this season if we play this kinda cook with rupture stuff and the winning streak buff will be very depended on experience and feelcraft

[alpine wraith]

so yea likely you wont risk it at the end

well you know there is some expertise already you can do in keys with supercharger in waiting times/travel etc

[hazy breach]

But like fuu said earlier, i suspect theyll make it so we are forced to gamble and increase the proc rate of the tier.

[alpine wraith]

and first dance timing

but yea best thing they can do is add rupture to the rng drop and make tier proc a lot more

[steel zinc]

So just add rupture to the finishers?

[alpine wraith]

to evade krangle

[steel zinc]

Then we would SnD outside of cds I guess

[hazy breach]

And snd, yes

[steel zinc]

so every finisher

[hazy breach]

Make it "spending cp has a chance to reset it"

[steel zinc]

would be sad to see

ngl I think I would like a cook where we just do omega dam, even more then now in dance.

[hazy breach]

Especially if sub ends up strong and "fotm" theres gonna be TONS of people complaining about not doing anything outside cds

Just like there is in assa right now for bosses in m+

[steel zinc]

Yeah but people then shouldnt play the spec. I like it that specs offer different stuff.

[hazy breach]

Im not disagreeing with you

[alpine wraith]

i mean you just need to look at fire mage

once it got the adhd super combustion uptime

people just cant escape it

for sub it will kinda be the same people will hate just using builders and pooling

[steel zinc]

I think the planing of sub and you getting better with experience is what sub is about

Its not just fire and forget

I hope the tier stays this way and they just fix the bugs

[steel zinc]

I guess we have no sims yet since tierset is bugged right?

[alpine wraith]

well what i want has been mostly what has happened so far now how it will end after more changes who knows

just for next changes delete shadowed and uncuck FW

[hazy breach]

SoonTM

[alpine wraith]

well it is not because it is bugged it is because koji has not implemented it because it is a pita too

and also he can be busy

[steel zinc]

FW is something that offers 0 value in terms of gameplay imo and just adds a layer that makes the specs just unnesscary complex

[hazy breach]

He has implemented most of it

[alpine wraith]

and i would not touch main rogue module even if someone paid me

[steel zinc]

I mean I just want to see if Eleems idea (he posted it here first) of not using evis bp outside of dance is actually a good cook

if its like 1% its w/e

[alpine wraith]

well it is also up to the player's skill

and like other times it can be gambling

will you take the chance to drop stacks?

or you wont and begin next pull fully stacked and ready to blast

[steel zinc]

I think this will be the gamba in cds between dances

[alpine wraith]

or maybe you just use an extra dance to finish the pull if it is dangerous

to not drop stacks

[steel zinc]

yup

[alpine wraith]

then recover cdr on travel time

or begin next pull with cds a bit later

[steel zinc]

also the other cook is it to pool shadow tech stacks

[worn cape]

Really implements the goblin gambling fantasy

[steel zinc]

idm it its a 15% chance to lose it

[swift tinsel]

If they fix the 15% chance per hit to per cast

But they could last minute change it to any finisher or my dream of dance granting up to 10 instead of double stacking

Removes degen

[steel zinc]

All in all its pretty bad they have an RC and the tier set is still not working

if anyone did that at our work they would lose there job

[swift tinsel]

There’s still what, two weeks before it goes live?

[steel zinc]

yes

15 days even though nothing offical

and then 1 week off season

[swift tinsel]

Plenty of time

They don’t really have anything else to work on for sub

Unless they wanna toss in a few more talent bugfixes

[steel zinc]

thats some coupium

I hope your right though 🤞

[swift tinsel]

It’s not like they haven’t been fixing them this ptr cycle 🤷🏻‍♂️

Got some very nice ones

[steel zinc]

having a tier set not working is kinda scuffed for balancing

[swift tinsel]

Heroic week

They usually tune a bunch more anyways

[alpine wraith]

we dont have heroic week anymore

so it is full grind day one

exploit early exploit often

[strange sail]

am i doing smth wrong if cdp is always up after sec tech in dance?

[lilac stag]

It’s gonna be nerfs after rwf

[stoic quiver]

Hey does anyone in here able to confirm if sub gains damage from chaos brand?

[jaunty heath]

Better get your thorgast powers on day one of the season or you’ll be behind

[red cloud]

Shadow damage is indeed magical damage, yes.

[slate lantern]

cold blood?

[strange sail]

coup de grace

[uneven scarab]

nothin wrong with that

[tribal blade]

it will for sure be a good strat if there's any moment of important burn/dmg amp

[hazy breach]

Sectech big bonk angle

[tribal blade]

it's gonna feel weird if sub is the new meta rogue spec

last time that was the case was S3 DF in raid, but it was so colossally mind melting to the average rogue that it still didn't see a lot of play

[swift tinsel]

did they update the hit-reset chance? it seems way lower

nvm still insta drop in aoe

[tribal blade]

i haven't gone on ptr yet, can i use the char i imported during TWW beta

or do i need to make a new one again

[swift tinsel]

thought I caught the perma-bug in st but in aoe it still drops in one or two bp

[hazy breach]

From what i can tell on St it actually drops

Just the buff doesnt show the true number

[swift tinsel]

yeah, it was just taking like 10-12 evisc to drop it for me

[hazy breach]

It just shows perma 10 despite it not being at 10

[tribal blade]

that seems pretty good

[swift tinsel]

nvm I'm just super dumb and didn't realize I had specced out of SF

now its like every 2-3 lol

[tribal blade]

😦

i thought they put that 400 milisecond thing to protect against SF double dipping the chance

[hazy breach]

Theyll do something

But no not yet

Im mostly worried about coup tbh. If last gcd of your first dance is coup its incredibly hard to make that last tick be inside dance

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, had a few times where the last hit dropped it. super annoying

[hazy breach]

So hopefully they make it so its on cast, but

[swift tinsel]

fingers crossed

so between dances have you just been BS to not cap energy or how are you playing that

[lilac stag]

I pugged 4 mythic bosses. Surely a transmitter in vault.

[hardy snow]

really doubtful

it is a single cast burst thing, which always gets special treatment when they consider other content like pvp

[silent ruin]

replicating bug + sec tec shadow damage for blades , being fixed for new patch ?

[molten citrus]

its in the pins :d

[mint lily]

About SecTech, from the wowhead guide:

“The ideal use of the cooldown is usually the second finisher during Shadow Dance. This is usually the point where generating more Danse Macabre stacks does not increase your overall output.”

Why wouldn’t more Danse stacks be better? Is it because of the fact it has CDR so you want to get it off earlier?

[supple pawn]

I would think so, but I'm not sure

It makes sense in the line of, "extra use > X% damage increase" to me

Do y'all pronounce AE mainly as Ay or Ee

[molten citrus]

both, depends on the word

[chilly idol]

moke

[tribal blade]

imagine you delay sectec use till late in dance in cds, then you're running the risk of sectec clones not hitting in dance (they don't snapshot) and also it'll be far harder to get sectec for your 2nd dance

the entire rotation for sub right now is anchored around sectec's cd

people also overestimate how much of an impact generating more DM stacks is

[strange sail]

isnt it also cause of surpercharge?

[mint lily]

Makes sense, cheers

[upper rock]

how much crit do we want/need?

[tribal blade]

yeah supercharger too, you'd have to delay symbols too long

[tribal blade]

just get mostly vers/mast and you're good

[upper rock]

okok, i feel like my dmg is super with 630 iLvl

[tribal blade]

trickster prefers a bit more crit than DS, but it's not going to make or break your damage by much

[upper rock]

super bad*

[tribal blade]

i'm between 19-22% crit depending on gear set

[upper rock]

im at 18% with 71 mast and 25 vers

2 haste xD

[tribal blade]

yeah that's very optimal right there

[haughty mural]

[upper rock]

i guess i have a lot of rotational issues then, i average about a 1mill-1.3 per dungeon

wich feels awful tbf xD

[tribal blade]

do you not have transmitter

[upper rock]

no

[tribal blade]

ahhh yeah makes sense, 2% haste sounds super low

transmitter will make a significant difference to your dps as sub

[upper rock]

is the transmitter really that much of a breakpoint for us?

oh wow

well makes sense tbf, lines up perfectly with SD

[tribal blade]

yeah it lines up perfectly with our cds

and it is a massive agi boost

and all of sub's damage is in cds

[upper rock]

as a tank main, its weird to play dps for a while tbh haha but at least im having fun

[tribal blade]

just focus on getting the cd rotation down and work from there

[upper rock]

yeah, thats what im doing, priority issues is a big one for me, what to rupture, when to shuriken etc, but with time comes wisdom 😄

[tribal blade]

yeah sub is not exactly a simple spec

just keep at it

[lilac stag]

It will make you hate tanks with shitty pulls

[compact cobalt]

Been running trickster - In situations where we are aoeing for 5+ targets - we just straight up replace eviscerate with black powder? What about when we build coup de gra(

?*

[tepid trellis]

you still consume coup

[upper rock]

do we press shadow blades before or after the first sectech?

[tepid trellis]

just after you press it, but more importantly after your first shadow strike

[lilac stag]

I think you mean blades

[vale pine]

Does matter little

[lilac stag]

Sneaky edit.

[upper rock]

eheh

[vale pine]

Ideally you don't use it immidiatly in dance, because you want to utilize premeditation

Once premed is down it barely matters

[keen dome]

My post-macro practice has made me dispise Transmitter with a passion. Just that tiyn bit of extra thinking..

[lilac stag]

Haha

[upper rock]

im confused rn xD

[lilac stag]

Lose it soon enough

[keen dome]

I've macro'd it to Flag as Fuu suggested once but hooboy is it still annoying.

[lilac stag]

Welcome to sub rogue

[tepid trellis]

press it after your sectech cast

[upper rock]

i always did shadow strike - flag - evis - vanish - rupture - shadow strike - sectech - shadowblades

in aoe

[vestal escarp]

Opener should be muscle memory and attention can go to time the transmitter minigame

[tepid trellis]

thats fine

[keen dome]

Absolutely, but I've finally become a big boy and I'm re-learning it without a dance+sod macro.

And it has raised my hatred of transmitter to the sky

[lilac stag]

@upper rock what is confusing you?

[upper rock]

everything? idk anymore haha

[lilac stag]

The opener is pretty static

After that you play around Sectech

[keen dome]

SecTec is the ability that binds all our other decisions.

We want maximum SecTec blasting

[lilac stag]

If it helps. Make a Sectech wa that plays a sound when it’s cd is 10 seconds or less

[vale pine]

Wdym, just macro it to flag

[lilac stag]

That’s basically your all clear to send sod/dance

[keen dome]

Ye - I have. I'm talking about finally ditching my Sod+Dance macro

[worn cape]

I did that, but then when I pressed the macro, it sometimes only used trinket or only use flag lol

[lilac stag]

Just have a trinket bind

[vale pine]

Only uses trinket ye

That's when you are out of range

[lilac stag]

If you press it mid gcd it won’t fire flag

[vale pine]

Oh true

[gray pulsar]

How much of a damage loss is this macro

[worn cape]

I think this is probably the culprit.

[vale pine]

Symbols + dance macro is fine

[gray pulsar]

Is there any reason at all not to use it other than a little bit more control?

[tepid trellis]

its just less dmg

cuz you wont always be able to super charge sectech

[keen dome]

I've played using it for a long time in TWW, and I have some pretty high heroic parses (for what that's worth). However, in S2 we might struggle more with it. And you also will struggle to fit SecTec properly into your burst window, potentially not have it buffed, etc. Like stealthi says.

[worn cape]

I also think it is more fun to press it seperate. 🤷‍♀️ But maybe that is just me.

[vale pine]

You sometimes use symbols without dance, so if you use a 2nd keybinds for symbols should be fine

[gray pulsar]

Yeah i do have the second keybind

[fringe palm]

Bind one to old snd slot

[keen dome]

If you personally find it more comfortable to play that way, I'd say stick with it. Comfort and enjoyment should come first and you'll just blast at that point anyway.

[gray pulsar]

I picked up rogue on like last tuesday there is no snd slot for me

[worn cape]

Yeah, it mostly depends on your goals and what you want from the spec.

[gray pulsar]

I mean i need to be able to be on m queen this weekend

[tepid trellis]

having it macro'd or not wont make or break anything

[gray pulsar]

If its not a big deal then its not a big deal

[worn cape]

I think they meant the keybind you used to have SnD bound to, but since you are new, you do not have that of course. Since we do not keybind SnD anymore.

[tepid trellis]

its just a slight dmg loss

[gray pulsar]

Yeah i understood that

[keen dome]

Do you happen to have a rough idea of how much it might be, Stealthi?

[tepid trellis]

anywhere between 0.3-1% is what i would guess

[keen dome]

Coo'. Was just curious.

[tepid trellis]

bigger gain for trickster to play it manually

[gray pulsar]

Ill probably leave it macroed for now and eventually unmacro it when im better at the spec

[tepid trellis]

since sectech is a bit higher dmg contribution

[keen dome]

Yeah

[leaden prairie]

question

in s2

[keen dome]

A good idea! That's my approach (I'm never getting better)

[leaden prairie]

are you losing anything pressing blades before sec tech versus right after

[tepid trellis]

nah

[leaden prairie]

In the end you fit the same amount of GCD right

[tepid trellis]

it has more to do with premed than sectech it self

[gray pulsar]

In the opener i assume you press the second sod whenever your second sectech comes up rather than right after your second shadow dance then?

[leaden prairie]

Even if you delay slightly the blade press

[tepid trellis]

ye has no baring on gcds

as long as it covers both dances you are golden

[leaden prairie]

Ye just wanna press it after premed I get that

Okay

I might use a macro I'm lazy

[tepid trellis]

yeh SoD lasts longer than dances do

[keen dome]

[tepid trellis]

so you hold the 2nd for the finisher just before sectech or with it

[leaden prairie]

Trinket racial blades is a lot of buttons to press at the same moment no cap

[keen dome]

Ye

[tepid trellis]

can fiddle with it to try and get both Coup and sectech in it or a DN + sectech

[gray pulsar]

This is definitely the result of a misplay but in the event that we are in flag and sb and sod somehow ends before secret technique is back up, should i send an sod or wait

[tepid trellis]

id just chain it at the point

[gray pulsar]

Whats DN? Sorry for all the questions

[tepid trellis]

Darkest night

from deathstalker

[gray pulsar]

Oh deathstalker

That should be a good dmg increase for me then, i havent been too worried abojt getting the second sectech supercharged

Another question for rogue specifically how do people do queen roots normally?

[hazy breach]

Vanish or kill first, cloak second and kill third

[tepid trellis]

that i wont be able to help with since im cheesing it with gnome

[hazy breach]

First line up perfectly with second sectech anyway

So it just gets evaporated

And you can make it so you get big cd sectech on third too

[tepid trellis]

eleem you play reg orc or the draenor ones?

forgot the name xD

[gray pulsar]

Ill prolly use sectech on the first and hold vanish then, thanks

[hazy breach]

Regular still, wasnt a big difference

[gray pulsar]

Maghar

[hazy breach]

What

If you dont use vanish on pull like you would normally

You wont have the sectech

[gray pulsar]

Wait i misread

What u said

Mb

[tepid trellis]

very important question, male or female?

[hazy breach]

Male

[narrow night]

no you didnt you answered what the name of the draenor orcs are

[gray pulsar]

Draenor orcs was unrelated to the queen question

[tepid trellis]

aite soonTM we are meghar

[keen dome]

Powerful facial expression

[tulip gorge]

why is everyone playing maghar all of a sudden

[tepid trellis]

tired of having to ask for the apprearance toy in raid

[keen dome]

orcs are cool

[tepid trellis]

does the most dmg

[tulip gorge]

would you give up on dwarf racial for that though

[vestal escarp]

Looks>>>>>0.8% dps

[hazy breach]

Well there was nothing important to dwarf this season anyway

[keen dome]

It was gnome season for a minute.

[lilac stag]

Dmg and the defensive is decent

[lilac stag]

I need a good meghar mog. Not really 100% happy with any of them. Tempted to go VE

[tulip gorge]

I thought this upcoming season there are plenty of bleeds

[hazy breach]

Thats not this season though is it

[worn cape]

And here I am, playing Goblin 😂

[narrow night]

also the racial got buffed and it doesnt sim like ass anymore so you can justify it more

[upper rock]

but what IS the right opener for aoe? thats the thing

[drowsy moon]

how bad is having %1 vers

am I coping stats dont matter

[tepid trellis]

i def need to change this

[tepid trellis]

well extremes are thing

and generally speaking sub is a vers/mast spec

so

[lilac stag]

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/rogue/subtlety/rotation-cooldowns-pve-dps

Guides are your friend.

[lilac stag]

The kankels kill me.

I’ll have to mess around a bit more. I hate the new tier. Looks like a pirate ate Ronald McDonald

[haughty mural]

what was their defensive again ?
10% reduced poison, bleed, curse duration passive right ?

[lilac stag]

Yes

[tulip gorge]

that's actually quite good

[haughty mural]

ye

[lilac stag]

I def don’t feel as panicked with a dot

and whichever stat the racial picks is a win

[haughty mural]

if ancestral call would be 1.5 min tho

[lilac stag]

it be what it be. In m+ not nearly as bad

Raid it’s a 3 min

[haughty mural]

oh it is ?

thought it would be static 2min

[lilac stag]

it is

But you line it up 3 mins

Every other flag

[haughty mural]

oh ye gotcha

thats normal with anything 2 min for us

[lilac stag]

vs rng VE going off outside of CDs

[haughty mural]

was a little bit confused for a sec

[lilac stag]

Sorry

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

I shorthanded the answer

[haughty mural]

dw (:

should have been clear if i just thought for a sec

i actually did a change to dracthyr just to try

midway through s1

and man having 3x jump transmitter with that is pain

[versed terrace]

Kinda disappointed that Stealthi isnt actually a Vulp player...

[haughty mural]

[tepid trellis]

i was just gnome to cheese queen

[tepid trellis]

im not a furry

i just have a raccoon as a pet

[lilac stag]

Welcome to havoc playing transmitter

[haughty mural]

Jup instantly thought about those poor souls when it first happened

can't wait not to drop house of cards till s3

[lilac stag]

Dinar hopefully

Curious when we get an update on that

[tepid trellis]

did a quick mash

[lilac stag]

That’s not bad. Which chest is it?

[tepid trellis]

from arberrus i think + the red tgc tabard

[lilac stag]

Unironically OG TF looks sick on meghar

[haughty mural]

TF as in thunderfury ?

[lilac stag]

Yes

[haughty mural]

personally not a fan

[vale pine]

the glow on the swords looks nice

[hollow spear]

Do you use the maghar racial like a 3min cd?

[tribal blade]

well my guild is alliance so that's just gonna be me 😉

staying dwarf

[hazy breach]

Yes

same as regular orc

[tepid trellis]

guilds are cross faction tho, can be whatever you wanna be

[tribal blade]

where are the racial sims, maybe i can swap off dwarf

[hollow spear]

Bloodmallet

Afaik

[tepid trellis]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5JSdyRh5WThsQTzXsMvvR8

[tribal blade]

the 1 thing i want to stay alliance for is mostly for LFR during splits

so i can do them with my guild

it's super minor, but it's still a thing

[hollow spear]

1% dps difference

[tepid trellis]

did they not fix instance queue yet?

thought i read that

this tier

like mid tier

[tribal blade]

oh did they? i honestly have no idea

let me see, if so i might be able to swap without worrying

i'm. gonna hit gold cap this week so i have a lot of gold to burn haha

never thought i could make gold cap, but i did it

[tepid trellis]

i might be wrong

just thought i read it

i have a whopping 250k gold

[tribal blade]

i can ask some guildies

[hollow spear]

Didn't even know there was a gold cap

[tepid trellis]

10mil per character

[hollow spear]

That's like 3-4 years of playtime

[tepid trellis]

or half a swift spectral tiger

[hollow spear]

Haha

[tribal blade]

ok so a guildie just told me you can only queue cross faction if it's a full premade

so if you don't have a full premade group you can't queue into stuff like lfr if you're cross faction

i remember this happened the last time we did it

[tepid trellis]

we are fine then

[tribal blade]

the person who was horde had to step out

[tepid trellis]

we have a guy with like 10 accounts

[tribal blade]

LOL nince

we do our lfr stuff after raid time during splits week

[tepid trellis]

OVERTIME POLICCE

[tribal blade]

so it's whoever actually wants to do it

[tepid trellis]

WEEEWOOOO WEEEEWOOOO

[tribal blade]

not mandatory 😉

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/soccer-yellow-card-referee-red-gif-18361874

[tribal blade]

but i always join because i'm a degen

and i want tier

[tepid trellis]

just get hc tier week 1

ez

[lilac stag]

Play assa. You won’t want tier.

[tribal blade]

it might actually be that easy this time if sub's tier stays giga

i can put the crazy % in rclc

[hazy breach]

Idk not sure theres gonna be much lfr for tier this season

Most tier sets suck ass

[lilac stag]

#assassination message

[tribal blade]

we'll still do it for stuff like trinkets and weps

i imagine

[lilac stag]

[tribal blade]

actually i don't even know what ilvl lfr will be

prob not weps

[hazy breach]

Its implemented in sims now, but unfortunately the 4p shadow damage isnt working properly

But even without the shadow damage in sims, its still

[tribal blade]

it's not working with shadowed finishers right?

[hazy breach]

Eeeh

How do i put it

Cracked

[tribal blade]

yeah it's a lot of dammy

[hollow spear]

The nerf hammer of Damokles is hovering above us

Don't look up

[hazy breach]

Most melee tier 2+4p is worth around 4%

Theres some ranged at like 8-10%

[steel zinc]

Got any sims?

[hazy breach]

Again, its not working properly in sims so i dont have exact numbers, but i dont think subs percentage starts with a 1 💀

[woven ruin]

[haughty mural]

and ends ?

[tribal blade]

i have a slight feeling that blizz might let it ride

[steel zinc]

I hope

[tribal blade]

or at least not nerf it way too low

[steel zinc]

Because core rotation rn is good imo

[tepid trellis]

we just sandbag

[tribal blade]

my feeling is they know they've been giving sub in particular the cold shoulder recently

[tepid trellis]

never post it to simcraft

[tribal blade]

and they might let us just have this win

[tepid trellis]

holy cope

if anything they are gonna slap us with a 30% nerf

just for fun

[tribal blade]

i know i'm coping super hard

[tepid trellis]

"we know you guys liked bfa so much so here is trip back into memory lane"

[hazy breach]

I mean its hard to balance when the tier literally doesnt work

[tribal blade]

please not bfa again

my heart can't take it

[haughty mural]

are we really that broken ?

[tepid trellis]

depends on other classes baseline

but % wise our tierset do be very fcking strong

[steel zinc]

why fix sth for people. Just let them test it when it's broken

[hazy breach]

If they dont change anything our burst is absolutely going to be broken

Now our overall dps might not be

[tribal blade]

yeah we're gonna have nuclear cd damage

[steel zinc]

There are certain dmg Amp phases in some bosses like smolderon

[hazy breach]

But if you have a fully stacked tier and a coup going into cds

[tribal blade]

well this is just us becoming literal venthyr boomy

[tepid trellis]

as god intended it

[hollow spear]

Idk about the cold shoulder thing

Dps wise we were doing well

[hazy breach]

Youre gonna be doing like 2x the amount of burst youre doing right now

[cinder plover]

There are ranged significantly above that

[hazy breach]

Well ye

[steel zinc]

Lol 7-8m st

[hollow spear]

I've seen kush play +12

[steel zinc]

Even 9m

[hollow spear]

Gigaburst

[steel zinc]

He played with bfa trinkets

[hazy breach]

Well ye thats with current ilvls

[steel zinc]

And other stuff thar scales up

[steel zinc]

True just current + tier from next season

[hazy breach]

I was doing roughly 6.5M on dummies (across all of blades)

With just new tier

So prob reaching 15M or so in good gear and in raid

[woven ruin]

[steel zinc]

I like that reminds me of dk s1 s2 df

You press army and do 3x dmg of the 2nd in opener

[hollow spear]

We're going to get clapped by a nerf

[steel zinc]

Nah since you do nothing outside cds

[hollow spear]

We already do zhwt

[steel zinc]

Yeah but even less

No BP or evis

[strange sail]

is the holding finishers real?

[hazy breach]

[hollow spear]

I'd be surprised if they let that pass

[steel zinc]

Why?

[hollow spear]

Spamming rupture in st lol

[strange sail]

its so degen

[steel zinc]

It isn't degen

[hollow spear]

Don't think they'll allow that

It 100% is

[steel zinc]

I agree to disagree

[molten citrus]

imo it's insanely degen

[steel zinc]

This spec is degen with stuff we do every xpac

[hollow spear]

Not sure how you'd think that but OK

[strange sail]

its kinda ok if you have a burst phase coming up (like damage amp)

[hollow spear]

There's degen and there's degen

And spamming rupture or snd is omega degen

[jaunty umbra]

auto attacking outside cds is def not ok

[steel zinc]

Nah just different finishers

[hollow spear]

Stop coping lol

[steel zinc]

That was sub gameplay for years

Lit have no energy

[hazy breach]

I mean tbf its not more autoattacking than using evsicerates

[steel zinc]

Outside cds sub should be w/e

[hazy breach]

Its actually less

Since rupture is cheaper than eviscerate

[tulip gorge]

outside cds you are actually not doing that many finishers

[wide flare]

How is sub looking in 11.1 so far compared to to other rogue specs?

[steel zinc]

Yup its like 4 finishers then dance and so on

[hollow spear]

Yeah but it just doesn't make sense. The tier set makes you do stupid stuff and I think they won't let it fly.

[hazy breach]

Good

[plush roost]

True and real

[tulip gorge]

but I have a feeling they will add a duration to the tier set stacks

[hazy breach]

That wont matter much at all

[tulip gorge]

I don't think they intend you to stay at 10 stacks forever

[tribal blade]

well at least in aoe you can spend the time between dances spreading rupture

[steel zinc]

I highly doubt they will redesign the tier set when a RC is ready. They will fix bugs that it

[tulip gorge]

they will probably force you to rebuild your stacks every dance window

[strange sail]

they just add snd and rupture to the list that consumes killingspree or smth xD

[steel zinc]

Nah bugfixes that's it. It's to late to change a whole tier set imo

[tulip gorge]

it's not a redesign lol

it's just adding a duration to the buff

[steel zinc]

Adding timer is a redesign

[swift tinsel]

You only cast four for five ruptures max so it’s not even that much

Also adding timer would either be too short and scuff your cooldown window or be too long for it to matter

[plush roost]

Anyone got a screenshot of details or logs for me to show my guild with the phrase: "gimme 4pc plz trust"

[hollow spear]

I feel like ever since the bonus turned out to be broken, there's a lot more acceptance of this gameplay haha

[swift tinsel]

There’s no way a timer would work with rng stacking

[steel zinc]

Just show them later a sim

[plush roost]

Gameplay is degen, but not the most degen shit ever tbh

[hollow spear]

The second they nerf it to the ground there'll be gameplay complaints, I'm sure of it

[plush roost]

True but I'm getting ahead of the curve, planting seeds early

8^)

[swift tinsel]

Gameplay is only degen outside of cool downs where our damage is not great anyways

Dance or flag windows play the exact same

[plush roost]

I prefer rupture spam big cooldowns rather than gloomblade spam into rupturex2 dance, gloomblade spam

[swift tinsel]

^

[steel zinc]

Also just makes the spec easier imo to play

[strange sail]

dont you loose dance during cds once?

[tulip gorge]

you guys really think blizzard designed the tier set intending us to stay at 10 stacks permanently lol

[swift tinsel]

They designed it without knowing how our spec works

[steel zinc]

If you actually played all melees you see that sub is the spec made for none rng stuff

[hollow spear]

Which is why they'll nerf it

[swift tinsel]

I don’t think they ever considered rupture

[lilac stag]

^ This

[plush roost]

If they make rupture includes, we will just spam slice n dice

[hollow spear]

Theyll see it's perma 10 stacks and "solve" the problem by including all finishers

[tulip gorge]

so they designed every tier set in the game to be an RNG clown fiesta, because casino raid xd

but somehow

[steel zinc]

Yeah so idk this apart of a full redesign, which won't happen with an rc

[tulip gorge]

they decided sub should be the only spec with no RNG gameplay

you guys are smoking too much copium

[graceful crown]

oh no, there's turmoil, what is happening?

[lilac stag]

It’s a gift for all of sub rogues suffering

[graceful crown]

is the new set bad for us?

[hazy breach]

No

its very good

[plush roost]

Its far too good haha

[steel zinc]

No its busted

[graceful crown]

i love that

[swift tinsel]

If anything they tuned the % down

[graceful crown]

that makes me happy

[swift tinsel]

From each stack

[leaden prairie]

Can't they even do that

Isn't it the shared set

Or whatever the fuck

[swift tinsel]

?

[plush roost]

Maybe, rn its kinda like. You have to tune it down reallllly low

[graceful crown]

just let us be the best, no bias

just make us god, pls

[leaden prairie]

Ye 2 p is shared or smth like that

Idk I don't remember

[plush roost]

Imagine ptr sub vs ingara this tier

Move over enh

[swift tinsel]

Shared across what

[graceful crown]

enhance deez, more like

[swift tinsel]

Idk what you’re saying lol

[tulip gorge]

no way 2p is shared

[steel zinc]

If sub stays this way during dmg amps we are like legion warrior in execute

[molten citrus]

all of the %s and shit are different

[leaden prairie]

Well across every spec

[leaden prairie]

Ah ok

[swift tinsel]

Nah each spec is a diff 2pc

[leaden prairie]

I didn't read the rest

[plush roost]

All 3 specs get winning streak with x ability gives % buff but its still different lol

[leaden prairie]

[molten citrus]

they're all based on different spells, %s, and durations. the overall concept is the same for all dps 2pc, but the numbers are diff

[hollow spear]

New hotfix on ptr: subtlety can only wear 3 tier pieces

[swift tinsel]

No don’t do that I have like no tier token competition this tier

[woven ruin]

can i atleast turn my brain off with this degen gameplay or do i have to think

[plush roost]

"in exchange, you guys can now switch to assa or outlaw in 2 seconds instead of 5. Hoping this buff balances things for you rouges"

[plush roost]

Its pretty straightforward, cd management and learning the pattern.

[steel zinc]

Outside cds brain off inside brain on

[hazy breach]

It is not as straightforward to play as it seems

Until they fix each coup hit counting as a seperate reset

[swift tinsel]

Outside cds is arguably more complicated than in cds

And BP

[tepid trellis]

last time it was going to be a thing it was fixed instantly

[hazy breach]

But its mostly muscle memory being in the way

[tepid trellis]

they dont want that

[hollow spear]

Is trickster even viable next to ds with the tier?

[tepid trellis]

ofc it is

tier buffs sectech

[tribal blade]

have you seen how many flawless stacks you can get to in dance

it can be a lot

[leaden prairie]

Wdym

[hollow spear]

I've got my money on some hacky nerf to keep me sane...

[swift tinsel]

Coup has six chances to reset

Per cast

[hazy breach]

Its per hit not per cast

And it includes shadowed finishers

[leaden prairie]

So

Why would that impact how you play

[swift tinsel]

And you can drop your stacks if the last hit lands outside dance

[leaden prairie]

[hazy breach]

So if you have 0.8s left of dance and hit coup. You will most likely have your last hit of coup be outside dance

[strange sail]

do you get engouh flawless stacks inside 1 dance?

[hazy breach]

Unless you press it immediately once it ends

Which is hard with lag since you cant queue it

[strange sail]

like if you do dance->coup cause youd be at 4 stacks anyway

[molten citrus]

that also includes aoe bp hits right

[hazy breach]

But thats probably gonna get fixed

BP working like that is 1000% getting fixed

[molten citrus]

i would assume so yeah

[hazy breach]

Its just very likely they forget coup

[molten citrus]

do you have an updated list anywhere

of the bugs

[hazy breach]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e2w0iHBCVp8K7hdSk1T8RKtUK9lr4FsRqFWd68FCQnk/pubhtml?gid=579089422&single=true
I havent included the tier bugs though

Ill do that

[molten citrus]

kk

[hazy breach]

RS is also fixed on ptr, like the pin says.

[woven ruin]

where can i find a ptr build

[steel zinc]

Download it???

[swift tinsel]

Talents are the same

[woven ruin]

ok

[molten citrus]

ye i knew that one, been trying to keep up

just to clarify because i keep seeing it said differently

2pc/4pc is buffing shadow damage, but 2pc is not working with Shadowed Finishers?

[hazy breach]

Yes

So the 2p is more like 2% per point rather than 3%

[molten citrus]

thanks

[hazy breach]

But ye its confusing to people who dont know much about the spec

But like 1/3 of our talents are named something with shadow

[shrewd grail]

dayum bro SUb is new BM bugg list

[hazy breach]

Most of these are from 10.2

The ones that arent hero talents that is

Most classes are like this nowadays

[leaden prairie]

ok but you cant do anything about that tho

gamplay wise

[plush roost]

Press powder kekw

[hazy breach]

Possibly ye

But if its only 15% then maybe not

[plush roost]

Play ds angle

[swift tinsel]

might depend on which dance is ending

[leaden prairie]

I'm confused

[hazy breach]

Well ye i was referring to the first dance in burst

[leaden prairie]

Why wouldnt you press coup

[hazy breach]

If it removes your stacks

[plush roost]

Lose stacks during cds

[swift tinsel]

even if 1 hit lands outside that's 2 15% chances

that's why it being per-hit is so problematic for coup

[shrewd grail]

nimble not interact with shadow blade looks big isnt it ? is it from 10.2 ?

[hazy breach]

Nimble is a hero talent

So its from tww

[shrewd grail]

yeah but not from 11.1

ofc its from TWW

duh

wait

ah i get it now

[bleak wind]

oh did they fix you getting double energy with shadowcraft and symbols?

[hazy breach]

ye

They also fixed improved backstab working from the front

💀

[bleak wind]

yikes

[strange sail]

i saw kush playing tea
how real is that xD

[tepid trellis]

land of feelycraft

[vestal escarp]

Hope the energy on craft fix is not that impactful

Some single dances on live were at the limit of playability

[haughty mural]

he likes his vigor

[lilac stag]

@tepid trellis feeling cute, might delete later

[swift tinsel]

show feet

[lilac stag]

that's Felhammer

[haughty mural]

thats fem orc right?

[vestal escarp]

Wtf im rerolling

[lilac stag]

you're not allowed to have shoes on as DH

[swift tinsel]

they only slow you down when you're flipping and zooming around

[lilac stag]

actually worse than

[swift tinsel]

fem orc arguably best for showing off armor sets

[random hare]

@tepid trellis

@leaden prairie is convinced u only strike once with trickster for find weakness

explain to him

[vestal escarp]

[random hare]

or whatever he's yapping about

[tepid trellis]

you only storm once

other way around

[haughty mural]

but only the second rotten stack

[swift tinsel]

strike -> sectech -> storm -> bp

[random hare]

@leaden prairie

[lilac stag]

groundhog day in the chat

[leaden prairie]

?

thats hwat i told you

[swift tinsel]

pirate fight!

[leaden prairie]

[lilac stag]

and of course it spills over here

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/bro-just-spunned-in-front-of-the-females-cat-cat-spin-cat-spun-cat-getting-spun-gif-13054455793337746706

[random hare]

?

are u reading what i told u

or what

[random hare]

yes

and

read down

?

[leaden prairie]

someone tell him he cant type

i cba

[random hare]

brother

ur actually trolling

as usual

u know that i mean shadowstrike

why would i explain something correct

when im literally saying its wrong

ofc i mean that u should be striking everytime

[leaden prairie]

why are you correcting me when i say you need to storm at least once to apply fw then

cant read bozo

[random hare]

i mean ofc u do

[solar ingot]

Ladies you’re both pretty

[random hare]

fine i thought u said u storm all the time too

[leaden prairie]

[random hare]

noob

[leaden prairie]

this guy is litteraly illiterate

[random hare]

no u

[solar ingot]

It’s Literally so kinda are yeah

[leaden prairie]

im french im allowed

[random hare]

?

[hazy breach]

Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?

[leaden prairie]

?

[solar ingot]

See you get it

[random hare]

Like More Look do to Want Go Even Use to Decided as Even Far Been Really Anyone has?

[haughty mural]

:3

[hazy breach]

I think that it doesnt is so

[random hare]

didnt u know

today is opposite day

so im in't correctn't

?

omgomg what did he type let me ask chatgbt omgomg

[haughty mural]

[random hare]

@hazy breach @tepid trellis i thought about the cb vs tea thing btw

[lilac stag]

new m+ build with current tier bonus. https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANUVVVVBFUVYGFQCFFPVUFRERBURVBUoRQBUEFVVUCVA

[random hare]

i think im with u guys

on the cb part

[keen dome]

goremaw rides again

[autumn flame]

Cbt

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/apt-rosé-blackpink-bruno-mars-gif-1539050173426684783

[swift tinsel]

its like one of those pictures that gets worse the more you look at it

[lilac stag]

so basically PTR chat

[keen dome]

Honestly, it coudl be worse.

[swift tinsel]

still confused by the existence of Warning Signs

[lilac stag]

and I’ll have you know it was carefully thought out to maximize feels and BP

[vale pine]

i don't mind ⚠️

maybe haste is good at one point, and the existence of the talent does not bother me

[lilac stag]

Need it for more energy regen with my build

[woeful rain]

what trinkets u rocking for ptr except house of cards?

[swift tinsel]

oh true Tea might not be enough

[keen dome]

It's a good node because it's totally harmless, and could have a use imo

[lilac stag]

Energy drink

[swift tinsel]

gotta make sure you can Storm a lot outside dance

[lilac stag]

More storms more speed

[swift tinsel]

drink, azerokk, eye

eye for 4min+ fights

[lilac stag]

Drink had best uptime from short testing

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, pretty consistent for me too

Azerokk was pretty solid as well

[lilac stag]

That was more hit or miss

[swift tinsel]

was around 40% uptime for me

[hazy breach]

Azerokk is full rng

[swift tinsel]

with almost an equal chance to be up for 2nd sectech

embrace the gamba

become the casino

Feelycraft tho is house + drink for me

Maybe Goon Squad for the memes

or Garbocalypse

if you aren't gonna be moving for the next 10 seconds or you're good at predicting it is funny damage

[lilac stag]

I didn’t see full squad in 10 mins.

[worn cape]

Season has a lot of fun trinkets at least. Goblin approved. 💯

[swift tinsel]

Idk if I ever saw full squad, def had times where there were two of them out at a time tho

and its cool their attacks change in st vs aoe

[lilac stag]

Drink is delves I think so can kinda farm

Easily enough

[swift tinsel]

hope for a hero track in vault otherwise

[vale pine]

hero track is still in maps, no?

[hazy breach]

You can only get one map a week now iirc

[vale pine]

was there a official note

because people initially also assumed maps to be very limited

[hazy breach]

There was some delve post ye

[swift tinsel]

I think I've gotten four or five this whole season

[vale pine]

interessting, i hope you get the map fast then

because you already saw them barely

[swift tinsel]

I did get two in one week a couple weeks ago but idk if there's a catch-up

[hazy breach]

I havent done much delves, but the one map i did get gave me a hc ritual knife

Still using it on a lot of bosses

[swift tinsel]

I've almost finished all the delve achieves minus the 250 bountiful chests one

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-sadness-pet-head-caterpie-sad-gif-16792400

[swift tinsel]

hey we get a mastery/vers dagger from raid, nice

minor consolation for no cantrip

[vale pine]

there is quite some mastery/vers gear

so not bad

[lilac stag]

Which is more than I’ve seen doing 4-8 delves a week

[hazy breach]

[lilac stag]

rng gonna rng

[upper rock]

what do we do outside of shadow blade burst window? same rota but without shadow blades?

[lilac stag]

Your Sectech window is the same

Also wowhead guid I linked tells you exactly how to handle cds

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[vale pine]

its just skill

[lilac stag]

I know. I’m bad. Don’t need to rub it in.

[vale pine]

you need to invest more points into luck

poorly balanced stat budget during character creation

[lilac stag]

so reroll goblin?

oddly enough my rogue is a raid mount magnet

[keen igloo]

any juan got trink recos for ptr keys?

[void tendon]

Tierset still bugged on ptr?

[mint swift]

Imagine not being goblin alreadt

[vale pine]

might learn the lucky feat once you hit your next milestone level

[mint swift]

Smh

[vale pine]

we made a pin for it

[void tendon]

🤝

[keen dome]

High5 team bad.

[hardy snow]

ok, they made behind target required for backstab FW?

[vale pine]

worked like that for a long time

[hardy snow]

well, how about bosses cannot do back backstab?

[hazy breach]

No

On live you can apply fw from the front

On ptr you cant

[hardy snow]

so they're trying to fix everything?

including the ones make you suffer

[vale pine]

oh ye, so its "fixed"

[vestal escarp]

Everything is an overstatement

[hardy snow]

if they started to care about the position of your backstab, i think everything is on the list

[swift tinsel]

or it was a quick easy fix

[left ledge]

lets buff lingering shadows again

[tepid trellis]

okay but then bring back sophic devotion

how bout dat?

[left ledge]

no

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/boo-boo-this-man-mad-angry-gif-16849857

[left ledge]

if i see sophic again im actually quitting

[pliant topaz]

Join me

[left ledge]

are you donezo?

[pliant topaz]

Yea

[left ledge]

-1 from already single digit population

[pliant topaz]

[lilac stag]

Don’t worry streamers will boost subs popularity

[pliant topaz]

We got tier implementation in simc, I’m excited for that tho! Gonna have fun

[grand wyvern]

can you pass the code to blizzard? they seem to need it

[swift tinsel]

gonna have to play around with sims after work then, noice

might need help later with toying around with the apl

[pliant topaz]

Sure, I’ll start stuff after work and gym tonight

[hazy breach]

The 4p shadow damage aint working correctly in sims

[swift tinsel]

that's okay, I think the things I wanna look into are more related to between-dance things so it wouldn't be affected by that

[hazy breach]

It would because dropping stacks is way less punishing

[swift tinsel]

ah true

basically wanna see how much of a loss it is to still send finishers up to flag having ~40 sec left

or supercharging rupture when you can't sod/dance/sectech

[hardy snow]

why not single sod first and dance afterwards?

[pliant topaz]

I don’t think super degen playstyles like don’t cast finishers will be viable. Last time we found something like this in 10.2 they patched it very fast. But who knows maybe they’ll let it go through

[tepid trellis]

ill make it my mission for it to not be the case

[swift tinsel]

I'll also be surprised if they don't change it, yeah, but in the off chance they leave it as-is

Idk its just super obvious they didn't think the set through if they didn't immediately know we'd do this

bc its really, really obvious that we'd just send rupture/snd

[pliant topaz]

This is a common thing. They’re usually aware since they read here

[worn cape]

Blizzard knows we are exist?