subtlety

[hazy breach]

1 charge + ~40s left on the second one is enough

[vale pine]

that too

[uneven scarab]

Cant wait till they buff ds again bc no one is playing it still

[honest grail]

You mentioned trickster was higher burst than DS?

I'm on silken court tonight so I figured it might be the play to abuse the weakness windows in the bosses

[uneven scarab]

Trickster prob the move there yeah

You can absolutely crank damage in those amp phases

[honest grail]

Is there anything I'm supposed to track as far as trickster goes

[swift tinsel]

flawless form, escalating blade/coup

[honest grail]

What do I do different when coup is ready

[uneven scarab]

try and hold it for dance

[honest grail]

So I just stop pressing evis

🤨

[uneven scarab]

Bp time

[honest grail]

Aint no way

[swift tinsel]

its not a huge deal if you don't but its better esp now that bp got buffed

[honest grail]

Is bp that strong that we can just use it on st

[uneven scarab]

its more so coup in dance is that strong

but also bp is like

[swift tinsel]

it was like a .2% optimization before but idk where things land after buffs

[uneven scarab]

Pretty strong yes

[lilac stag]

Make sure you’re in melee range

[fair stump]

what the fuck

I'm at 63%

[uneven scarab]

Yeah think im around 60% also

Got like 23% vers tho

[fair stump]

I'm at 21% vers

[lilac stag]

22 vers 17 crit. 78 mastery

[swift tinsel]

I keep getting all crit+X off pieces so mine is like ~50% mastery

[lilac stag]

idk crafted gear is your friend.

[uneven scarab]

If only fucking transmitter didnt have haste

why couldnt they give it any other stat

[fair stump]

The only thing I'm missing is ara'kara head and dawnbreaker ring, but even with that no way I'm breaking 70% mastery

What's your ilvl

[swift tinsel]

620 babyyy

[lilac stag]

the haste is so minimal it doesn’t matter

[swift tinsel]

am baby

just replaced my vet track cloak with the rashanan meh one

lol

[fair stump]

useless cloak lol

it gives fucking haste

[swift tinsel]

I took the 20ilvl upgrade on it lol

[uneven scarab]

Im rocking that mist neck

[strange chasm]

I wonder if ds is better for queen now though

[honest grail]

So I can use sec tec even outside of dance is sod is up

And I guess I don't really play around dance macabre I just send sectec whenever during dance

Idk it looks a bit simple I feel like I'm missing something

I remember in DF you had to do a precise sequence during dance

[topaz agate]

@vale pine @hazy breach https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cwZmNsejuVvWAwZ1Yh3hN1

yo boys

in the quick sim

why is clear the witnesses buff present after first shadow strike?

is it not after you've cleared all the stacks?

[uneven scarab]

Sectech first in dance and spam evis after

is all we really care to do

[topaz agate]

or does simply applying the mark give you the buff also

[uneven scarab]

I thought it was from applying the mark

[jovial jacinth]

is there a big difference between ds and trickster on ST?

or nothing's changed?

[lilac stag]

DS 5% Ahead

Less burst though

[small hemlock]

so subs simming higher than sin now?

[fair stump]

What does /cqs do?

[rancid lichen]

what could one drop to run TFD in keys

[uneven scarab]

Weaponmaster

[rancid lichen]

[small hemlock]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[half comet]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/the-war-within-art-blast-spotlight-ethan-zink-hero-talent-fx-part-1-druid-rogue-351390?utm_source=discord-webhook

are these coming out or something cuz I dont think my coup proc looks like that

lol

[sage pond]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

stands for Cancel Queued Spell so you can't spellqueue

[fallow nimbus]

my coup looks like that when i charge else it's just autohits

[thick cedar]

Are the sims on crack? DS M+ build showing 400k increase?

[fallow nimbus]

DS plays like shit when you played trickster for almost all of this tier

it's just not round and these little interruptions in the flow go mental

[swift tinsel]

Sometimes feels like you're fighting against the spec vs playing it

[lilac stag]

it certainly does not.

[keen dome]

Yeah, I'm really confused by this.

Those are really nice animations that just don't exist in the game so I have to assume they're coming right? But..

[fallow nimbus]

it's how it was ment to be but isn't

the mark one is there

[lilac stag]

I asked why they’re not in game

[keen dome]

Like, the Unseen Blade animation demonstrably does not look like that in-game. Fuu documented it ages ago

[lilac stag]

Curious if they will respond

[keen dome]

And Coup doesn't even have an animation lmao

[fallow nimbus]

also the char looks like using feint to trigger unseen

[keen dome]

Yeah

[fallow nimbus]

coup does this animation when you charge but only then

[keen dome]

It doesn't do that animation even in a charge for me.

[lilac stag]

^ this

[fallow nimbus]

what race are you (ingame)

[keen dome]

Human

It's a normal eviserate

There's no 3 part hit and a twirl

[fallow nimbus]

my blood elf, that is a gnome since queen progress, did

[keen dome]

Weird. It's always been the weird charge animation into a normal evis for me.

[lilac stag]

My belf does not

[swift tinsel]

Just did it now as the charge animation, gotta see if it does in reg melee range

[keen dome]

Returning to my "have our animations just been bugged the entire time" theory

But the Unseen Blade one is the most curious to me.

Because Unseeblade looks nothing like that

It has a very large blade that you can see.

[swift tinsel]

My belf's done the hit-twirl combo only as the charge four times now, never when in reg melee range tho

[foggy pebble]

can i ask a quick SOD rogue question if yall dont mind... i just joined this disc so first time here and need rogue info

[lilac stag]

We don’t sod

[keen dome]

Just did it as a human. You do two slices and then it farts. No jump twirl, nothing. It's very different to how the animation shown looks haha

[lilac stag]

Maybe classiv

#classic-discussion

[fallow nimbus]

anybody got a quick lightweight capture tool?

[foggy pebble]

what are opening moves? is ambush an "opening move?" if so would cutthroat procs of a free non stealth ambush still count as an opening move in regards to my t2 set bonus that says "opening moves have 100% chance to make your next ability cost no energy?"

[swift tinsel]

Lol sometimes it doesn't do any attack animation at all when coup in melee

[wise scaffold]

yo do you actually BP in two target fights?

[keen dome]

Yeah

[fallow nimbus]

ok handy video it is then

[keen dome]

Coup having no animation but a 1.2s lock was a nightmare. literally no feedback you did anything

[lilac stag]

#classic-discussion

[swift tinsel]

That's what made me shelf playing sub altogether until they fixed it

[keen dome]

Ye, very valid. It was very very annoying.

[jovial jacinth]

is it worth now bping over evi as trickster?

[foggy pebble]

ty tricks

[keen dome]

Huh, damn

[fallow nimbus]

I will test it in other zones, not that it is another dornogal bug

[keen dome]

haha

Imagine if we have animations in a specific zone against a specific target

Their work is so good though. All the animations own extremely hard.

[lilac stag]

imagine never seeing an animation because firing it off at range gets you killed

[keen dome]

hahaha

[glossy turtle]

is sacbrood good for raid if I already have empowering crystal?

[lilac stag]

Sim

[glossy turtle]

idk I simmed for dungeon

it was quite terrible.

[lilac stag]

There you go

[fallow nimbus]

charge+animation works in all zones

but only with charge

let's see if another action cancels the animation

[bitter trail]

should i play deathstalker now in m+?

[vale pine]

if you like: yes
must play: no

[uneven scarab]

Crystal way better than sac for us

[tepid coral]

So - maybe im crazy, but is it correct that shadow dance consumes clear the witness?

[fallow nimbus]

the last hit of the 3 hits is overwritten if you spam another ability like bs or strike, moving doesn't cancel the animation but your char doesn't jump and twist their torso in a way no doctor could ever fix you if you walk left

or right

[opal mantle]

whats your opinion on the best one for m+ ?

dmg wise

[vale pine]

trickster is the best one in my opinion

but both are good

[bleak wind]

can we all just not play deathstalker so they see its not the damage, that shit feels horrid

[vale pine]

people will gravitate to the strongest option

also towards the animation update

[swift tinsel]

the trick is to get them to only cast BP on single target outside of DN

[vale pine]

rogue animtations are rly the opposite of flashy

[vague oar]

My guilds starting court next week. Trickster is def still the play for court right?

[swift tinsel]

Trickster burst felt way better for vuln phases imo

[vale pine]

i think they would need to go back to the drawing board with deathstalker

but have no time

same with some other hero talents

[frail nexus]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sour stump]

How's sub now compared to the other rogue specs after the hot fix

[uneven scarab]

The same

its good

[fair stump]

Any idea what's the name for the coup animation in the dressing room?

[slate marlin]

With dark brew and ds, how bad is it to drop tornado?

Bc im hating it so much

[uneven scarab]

You can drop nado whenever if you dont like

[swift tinsel]

Conceptually, I don't 100% hate DS. You mark a target for death etc etc but the implementation of stuff like Clear the Witnesses in ST doesn't fit, Fatal Intent is laughable at best, 7cp requirement for DN and only affecting Evisc

[uneven scarab]

Swap nado for veiltouched

[vale pine]

sub is slightly better on single target now, rest stays as is

[uneven scarab]

Fatal intent is so ass bro

[haughty mural]

damn ds sims 6-7% ahead for myself

[swift tinsel]

It's just ridiculously worse arms execute talent

[uneven scarab]

Yes

Its literally

Walmart fatality

[swift tinsel]

lmfao

[uneven scarab]

Shit is ass

[sour stump]

Does stat prio change for ds?

[swift tinsel]

If they want to give sub execute just copy/paste contract

[uneven scarab]

Not really

[swift tinsel]

OR

sylv dagger

[hazy breach]

No

[swift tinsel]

effect

[left ledge]

Btw last night I played court as trickster

And I was paying attention to cp munching with RS

And GOD DAMN

Pretty sure I lost out on well over 60 combo points and many gcds in just one pull

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/krill-issue-skill-issue-krill-issue-gif-25572478

[left ledge]

There’s just no predicting it

[hazy breach]

There is

[left ledge]

Sometimes RS will just fill the cp after you strike too

You strike

Hit 5 cp

Strike again and right before the strike

Or 4 cp whatever it may be

Non cd dance

RS will randomly fill the cp

Only sometimes though

The only one you can “outplay” is finishing at 5sht because you can wait a lil to see if you proc 7 and refund

But even then sometimes I’m at 3sht and I fkin go ham with windfury

I would love to see a diff log of trickster gameplay with RS that doesn’t lose cps

I think you are guaranteed to lose at least 5 finishers per pull playing that dogshit on court

But then death stalker doesn’t do shit on 2T

Spec makes me wanna reroll off the class

On work pc without disc but look at this cp waste LMAO

AHAHAHAHA

[hazy breach]

WCL cant process the waste

If you strike with blades up

It counts all of your strike as wasted

[left ledge]

Seriously?

[hazy breach]

Yes

Weaponmaster too, also shows as wasted

[left ledge]

Why does DS have lower waste then

Is it because I’m supplementing cp gain with storm

Nvm they’re both bogged as fuck

Great

Can’t even go through logs for it

[fair stump]

Does that happen by having RS talented?

[left ledge]

Yes because the talent

Is

Bugged out the ass

Has been since s3 df but they refuse to fix it

[fair stump]

Fuck me, that explains things...

[left ledge]

It’s annoying as fuck

[uneven scarab]

Oh you didnt wanna finish at 7cp did you?

lemme just give you 5cp

hehehheehe

[left ledge]

I just want to play my rotation

If I press evis and I’m at 5 sht

I shouldn’t get a refund

It shouldn’t “help” me fill my cp

It should just fuck off

Trickster would be the most fun thing I’ve played in this game if I didn’t have to lose multiple gcds and set up combo points because of stupid bugs like that

[cerulean beacon]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[alpine wraith]

man another disband

im really the angel of death

[hollow patio]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[opal mantle]

is tornado this good in m+ ? with deathstalker

feels shit tbh

[swift tinsel]

not really

[vale pine]

already plans for a new guild?

[uneven scarab]

Tornado is nice for spreading rup or getting a bunch of cdr back but essentially the spell is terrible

can swap out of it if u dont like it

[opal mantle]

yeah ty

had good memories of it from s3 df but damn

[uneven scarab]

swap for veiltouched

[opal mantle]

that stinks

[hazy breach]

Nah tornado was stinky back then too

[modest delta]

Do you press black powder at all for aoe pulls?

[uneven scarab]

Its been stinky

[modest delta]

or just ST evis

[uneven scarab]

if ur ds yes

[alpine wraith]

i wish i always struggle finding one

[uneven scarab]

you bp in 2+

[alpine wraith]

maybe people find out sub is op this week and it is easier

[hazy breach]

Ds at 2 or more
Trickster at 5 or more (make sure you storm once with rotten)

[alpine wraith]

what he means is use storm with rotten on second stack

so it does not krangle

[modest delta]

what is ds

[uneven scarab]

Deathstalker

[modest delta]

im running fated

for m+

not the wave?

[uneven scarab]

[swift tinsel]

Huh?

[uneven scarab]

Are you playing sub rogue?

[modest delta]

i mean trickster

sorry

[uneven scarab]

Trickster is good

It is the move

[modest delta]

word

so bp targets 5+?

[uneven scarab]

As trickster yes

[swift tinsel]

that sound so ass

[uneven scarab]

Blame blizz

[swift tinsel]

oh I do

[uneven scarab]

“No one plays deathstalker it must be undertuned!!!”

[swift tinsel]

They wanted more BP even though nimble is hard capped at 8

so having BP take over under that cap is crap

[uneven scarab]

Bp is already so close to being as strong as an evisc lmfao

With this second buff to it

[swift tinsel]

Right, it's so stupid

[uneven scarab]

Theyre lost bruh

[swift tinsel]

It's obvious too. Citing BP being used less as Trickster vs Deathstalker when Nimble Flurry exists is just asinine

Fucking duh

"We gave you blade flurry, why are you taking advantage of it?"

[topaz raptor]

well buffing the underused spec has been a thing all tier

[swift tinsel]

I don't mind that

[uneven scarab]

Sure and theres nothing wrong with that but plenty of those underused specs arent underused bc of damage

[swift tinsel]

Flat buffing bp for both specs is just a half-cocked choice though

[cerulean beacon]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[final granite]

is there some prepull SOD shenanigans?

[sly shore]

Ye

[uneven scarab]

Ya

Can sod prepull for supercharger stacks

[final granite]

surprised it wasnt listed on sim so asking (as prepull cast)

kewl

[spark tusk]

can only stack to 2 but yeh

when you accept your rez just hit sod immediately

(Well, it canstack infinitely it seems, just that it resets to 2 on pull)

[pliant topaz]

it is listed in the APL which is why the sim does do it prepull

[alpine wraith]

yea there is a part of pre pull thingies

thx to some expansions back in mop for ex

[clever delta]

sub is back

[cerulean beacon]

rotational question - why, in aoe, during shadow dance I still should only use shadowstrike? wouldn't BP deal more dmg overall? won't both of them reset sectec cd?

[rugged condor]

isnt it 5+ targets you swap to storm in dance

[alpine wraith]

only as trickster

but you dont storm more than once

consume second charge of rotten

to get FW

[cerulean beacon]

so as DS you dont storm at all during dance?

oh nvm you do actually

[hazy breach]

You storm once with rotten up, rest is strikes

As tricks

[void hound]

any changes for trickster BP target threshholds elmo?

[alpine wraith]

just talked a bit about it

using second charge of rotten

to get FW you can use bp after

on 5+

[void hound]

so after two shadowstrikes in dance you can bp?

with rotten

[swift tinsel]

one, otherwise you're consuming both charges

with strike

[wind canopy]

Shadowstrike is a builder so wouldn’t interfere with BP. But you hit SS as trickster for the damage it does (with trickster since cleave via nimble).

[void hound]

can you elaborate

[swift tinsel]

there are two rotten charges. using strike twice would consume both so then you aren't able to storm to spread fw as efficiently

[hazy breach]

No

You storm the second rotten

So you have FW up

If you dont storm, you dont want to bp

because no fw = no damage

[alpine wraith]

yea i hate shadowed finishers with a passion

and how fw works now too

[swift tinsel]

feels like mark of the crane

well, slightly-rng mark of the crane outside of rotten

[mild vessel]

is darkbrew any good for DS M+ build?

[void hound]

ok i see
so shadowstrike sectec storm bp for example

[alpine wraith]

too much cost to get to it

maybe you can play 2 finality but db is costly

[gritty knot]

@hazy breach Can u send me a valid m+ DS build pls?

[pliant topaz]

its litearlly in the pins...

[alpine wraith]

there is one in pins

there is also a tea vers kinda

but cb is cooler

[gritty knot]

oh, last time I checked wasnt there. thx

[mild vessel]

same

[glacial hinge]

Does this work better for m+? Without rotten

[cerulean beacon]

one more question, i'm trying to get back into sub finally but it's still somewhat confusing - in the opener, during the second dance, do we use symbols again? and then are left with just around 8 seconds of dance-less symbols during which we might use another sectec if we're able to?

[gritty knot]

damn that will be a rough one switching to press shuriken storm and Black Powder even in shadowdance and not shadowstrike and trickster playstyle...

[alpine wraith]

not really just diff choices you can try both

welcome again to freedom of choice i know it has been a while

you can play trickster DS one way or another

crazy things i know

[vestal escarp]

6M DN evis

erm

[alpine wraith]

dis nutters

[vestal escarp]

(almost 6M)

[glacial hinge]

Aight xD i pref trickster but curious about DS profile on m+ need to test dmg prio diff, and for raid ig is DS now

[gritty knot]

anyone got a weakaura with voice telling me when DN is up? that shit goes so fast from 3 to DN proc thats crazy to keep track wtf 😄

[alpine wraith]

i like LE pack it has a big fat counter on mark

i look religiously

also DN icon glowing

[edgy zenith]

we doing DS or Trickster for Silken

[gritty knot]

ye i got that, but spamming in AOE situations especially m+ with shit going on everywhere I honestly cant keep track of it 100%

[edgy zenith]

DS seems like it would be fine, anytime you swap bosses it lines up with a dance I think

[alpine wraith]

you could add some TTS to it

[fast surge]

always use dance with symbols, you can use symbols w/ 3 seconds left on it as it stacks the last 3 secs

use sectec if cold blood has just been used

[edgy zenith]

yo on god why did Eleem do more damage than me
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/G4kDybLAfYgr9V8X/D6CZJMf8RdnjNHb3#boss=2920&difficulty=5&wipes=2&type=casts&source=533,1231&view=timeline

just ilvl?

swear I played better

[grizzled hornet]

ooof court down boiz

[topaz raptor]

eleem's gear is goated

[glossy turtle]

at what target count would BP be more worth then just regular evisc?

[sly shore]

This week is wank for sub I stg

the cdr scuffs everything

[strange chasm]

I mean why are you using shuriken

In your opener

[topaz raptor]

clear the witness

[upbeat sorrel]

how much am i supposed to rupture in m+

[hazy breach]

Fwiw that page snapshots whatever stats your alchemical chaos had at the start of the pull

[edgy zenith]

please let the adults talk

[hazy breach]

Or just whatever stats you have at pull in general

[edgy zenith]

(kidding)

Clear the Witness is why

[topaz raptor]

yeah those numbers are usually never accurate to what you have equipped

the summary page comparison is funny af though

[edgy zenith]

he do be versatile

think I just have shit gear or something idk

[topaz raptor]

eleem has some magic trick where he does 15m sectechs

[haughty mural]

I just tried me a DS key

Somehow it felt really horrible

[vivid cobalt]

twin fang instruments any good in m+ ?

[haughty mural]

Used to trickster so much

[edgy zenith]

really? i've been kinda liking it actually

takes some getting used to

[haughty mural]

But I also inted af

[edgy zenith]

but putting up some nasty numbers actually

well, only really liking it because of the numbers

playstyle feels worse

[haughty mural]

I played so bad maybe that’s also a point - but I was not really comfortable and used to it to begin with

[edgy zenith]

yeah, unbind evis

[haughty mural]

The diff in cdr is also really noticeable

[edgy zenith]

definitely

think you like HAVE to take nado

to not just send 1600 natty symbols

[haughty mural]

Yea probably

[hazy breach]

Only as trickster

DS is at like 11 when everything is up

[edgy zenith]

yeah DS sectech hits for a bad trickster sectech

makes me sad

[haughty mural]

Nado though

[hazy breach]

Dont get me wrong, 11M for one global is still a good global

[edgy zenith]

but after coming from 15M sectechs

it ain't the same

[glossy turtle]

@lilac stag lfr. its a start. hopefully I can get it for hero track

[pliant topaz]

sectech is just such an insane global. its own damage + tier + (flawless form stack + 2 UB hits + 2 more ff stacks + fazed - if trickster)

[edgy zenith]

rip sectech

you'll not be forgotten

[alpine wraith]

yea second sec tech in cds when you have all the fazed in the world hits like a trucker

sadly not enought to beat LUL YOU GET DM ON AUTES EHEHE

and mark hello im a passive that can pop for 1m

every finisher

[vivid cobalt]

wait is DS better in keys now

[haughty mural]

[edgy zenith]

i think probably numerically yes, but i you don't wanna play it you don't have to

they probably both close

but you're pressing BP regardless nowadays

[vivid cobalt]

oh did they buff it again

[edgy zenith]

[glossy turtle]

!transmitter

[wicked jolt]

The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png

[glossy turtle]

isnt there a wa for transmitter?

[vale pine]

not nessecery better but competitive

[haughty mural]

We had nice gameplay for quite some weeks - they decided fun needs to be subtle in this spec

[alpine wraith]

yea it only clears ahead if pulls are big

and into bosses

but also mostly because of how m+ pulls play out too

[edgy zenith]

yeah, it will likely be better in like hard keys, where you're pulling with the timer in mind

[alpine wraith]

dungeon dps might be almost the same just your other mates will do less dps as fodder dies faster

[edgy zenith]

but if you're in a pug who is pressing W adn stopping at every single pack, you might just wanna play trickster

[swift tinsel]

Cozy trickster in my weekly no-leavers

in my lane, moisturized, thriving

[novel plaza]

is heoric void reaper contract better than heroic ritual knife or just same?

[fair stump]

Sim it

[alpine wraith]

for st contract should be better but for m+ knife is good

[uneven fern]

oh trickster is on the ss bp ss bp shit now?

shs i guess?

what’s the acronym

u get the idea

[novel plaza]

i feel like st ritual knife is better while some fights with cleave adds like rash and ovinax reaper contract is better? or is that a poor assumption

[edgy zenith]

i think it's 5+ targets, yeah

[uneven fern]

mess

[edgy zenith]

don't quote me on that, haven't played trickster since changes

[alpine wraith]

the other way around 2t+ kni always better at same ilvl

contract is an st trink

[alpine wraith]

you only storm once with second charge of rotten

to get fw

otherwise you dont bp at all

[novel plaza]

word ty !

[abstract stratus]

haven't played since DF, i noticed the macro i used to use for shadow dance / shadow strike now still delays shadow strike. Is this intended or do we need a different macro now?

instead of one hit of macro using dance and SS instantly

[alpine wraith]

yea that macro got broken in df

you have to use them separatedly

[candid field]

So reading everything from my understanding on 5+ targets as trickster the rotation is now (sd,sod), ss, st, storm (to apply fw and on 2nd rotten charge), bp ? after that I can keep bp as long as I have fw up? Less than 5 targets im stil evis like before

[alpine wraith]

yes

[candid field]

thx

[uneven fern]

oops

[uneven fern]

[abstract stratus]

basically i need to bind my SS somewhere if i want to not lose the first strike?

[uneven fern]

so you do still just slam eviscerates

or

?

i will read guides when i’m out of bed

[alpine wraith]

for bp to be worth at 5 targets

you need fw

to get fw you want to storm

and crit

to crit you want a rotten charge

but you dont want to use storm with 2 because of a bug that consumes both charges

so you strike once

finish then storm

[candid field]

also Im assuming we only ever storm to apply fw during dance all other times its ss?

[alpine wraith]

as trickster yes

[candid field]

ty

[alpine wraith]

as DS you storm on 3 with witness on 2

[uneven fern]

ah ok i get it now

[glossy turtle]

I just got transmitter, and now that im using it, idk what to do. Like should I stop every cast, while im looking for the absorb thing. or do i continue with opener. is there a trick to finding the absorb faster?

[strange chasm]

Do you use clear witness right away though in the opener lmao

[alpine wraith]

you can look at some gameplay but basically you open and use transmitter

then want to pop it as you use sec tech ideally

[edgy zenith]

yes

[alpine wraith]

some people have it macroed to flag i dont

[candid field]

so for m+ trickster is still recommended? Is Deathstalker better for all bosses in raid?

[edgy zenith]

you're only using SS for the premed, which works with shuriken storm, and you're outside symbols

[dry plank]

does anyone have video rogue pov from red team on court?

[half comet]

is wowhead rotation updated with DS

priorities etc

[glossy turtle]

I have it on flag. its kinda weird, like do you know where it is? in raid there is soo much stuff on the ground already

[alpine wraith]

storm and strike are kinda same dps after vanish

with witness up

unless witness crits

one is like 20k+120k the other 140k

or smth liek that

[lilac stag]

!transmitter

[wicked jolt]

The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png

[glossy turtle]

biiiiig

[half comet]

when do you powder with trickster now

[vale pine]

on 5+ targets

[alpine wraith]

when you can get FW on them

it is more simpler than it seems dont worry

[half comet]

also in dance on DS aoe build

u storm i assume

[hazy breach]

Yes

[glossy turtle]

so how do you use it on pull? seems like you gotta stand and chill at the absorb for some time

[alpine wraith]

not reallyu

you have 3 diff ones

[half comet]

ds aoe build doesnt sound too bad if u get rid of nado tbh

just evis'ing during DN

and thats about it?

[alpine wraith]

you kinda use tornado now for cdr or to spread ruptures

not with cds unless you know what you are doing and stagger symbols to not krangle shadowcraft

[wide magnet]

tornado button sucks

tragic reality

[glacial tartan]

Hi everyone! So I recently hit 80 with Sub Rouge and I've been trying to find a a video guide on how to play it a bit better to supplement the build by Icy Veins (Trickster). The issue I'm running into is that it seems like IV, Method, and in general have all different builds. Does anyone have a solid video or reference point I should be going off of?

[wide magnet]

wowhead is king

#subtlety-faq too

[alpine wraith]

i also have videos if you like those more but yea the written guides are super complete

[glacial tartan]

I'll try the Wowhead one then and I appreciate it. Just trying to navigate the Rouge talents is a bit confusing when it seems like there are quite a few different ones.

[spark tusk]

The authors of those guides are all frequent chatters here, sub is a relatively under played spec and some of the prime players of it (not me) gravitate to this channel so feel free to ask specific questions when you have them

[vale pine]

best way to learn is to ask ^^

well and practice

[hazy breach]

The builds are probably different because it literally changed today

So some might not have had their updates go through and some have

[spark tusk]

It's a tad bit dated since the BP buff but https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1271971289396936735 this thread is really good at explaining the overall structure of why we do what we do with 11.0.5

[hazy breach]

There really arent much difference

Theres very little difference between the different setup in terms of numbers, and playing your ST spec on aoe would be completely fine

But deathstalker is good now, it wasnt yesterday

[spark tusk]

u can't make me play it

[glacial tartan]

Ahh okay. I haven't touched the Deathstalker build yet as Trickster seemed more interesting to me. What was getting me though is some of the Rouge talents took Without A Trace or Thistle Tea over Supercharger and Force Induction.

[hazy breach]

Then youre probably in the assa section

And not in the sub section

[wide magnet]

thistle tea thatle tea

[glacial tartan]

The Sub Talent Tree on Method has Without a Trace with Dark Brew I think it was for M+ Dungeons.

[alpine wraith]

yea might need to update that one

[hazy breach]

Then its probably not updated

[alpine wraith]

we dont really play db anymore cost to get to it is not worth

[hazy breach]

Because thats some pre 0.5 patch stuff

Wowhead and IV should be updated though

[glacial tartan]

That makes sense then lol. I'll stick more to thos.

[wide magnet]

if it makes you feel better talent choice is arcane intuition and df talent trees were a mistake

[glacial tartan]

That sounds horrible lol.

Either way, thank you all again. I decided to pick up Sub as my first DPS and it's been pretty fun so far.

[spark tusk]

Ngl, quite the choice for your first dps

Glad you're here, Sub's fun, just isn't typically people's first pick

[wide magnet]

just remember that the 1s gcd is not as scary as it seems

because your global order is pretty much scripted

[glacial tartan]

On paper the rotation seems not too bad, just definitely takes a lot of practice and experience. I started about a month ago playing Prot War so it's quite the jump for sure lol.

[wide magnet]

should b pretty comparable actually

in terms of apm

[uneven fern]

apm kinda a fake concept in wow tho

difficulty is like

decisions per minute

ret kinda high apm but wtf r u ever thinking about on that spec

(nothing)

[wide magnet]

then by this metric sub is one of the simplest classes in the game

and thus one of the easiest

but in practice that's not how players tend to feel

[glossy turtle]

is 40k overall a big difference? when it comes to st sims?

[glacial tartan]

That makes me feel a bit better.

[wide magnet]

:>

sub has very high active apm

intersparsed w some downtime

so brings the median down

[glacial tartan]

I was drawn to it becuase it seems like a busy job is the big thing for me.

[wide magnet]

yea

unfortunately the tier set kind of removes some of the cool decisions you can make in m+

but it is still busy

[spark tusk]

I mean it's basically hitting every gcd during cooldowns with off gcds thrown in a few places, but that's about it, outside of cds you're not gcd capped

with a fixed 1sec gcd

so it's not as bad as it could be

[wide magnet]

that's what i said!

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-our-now-gif-21036569

[glacial tartan]

x3 So I did have a question. Does Nible Fury remove the use of Shuriken Storm and Black Powder?

[wide magnet]

yea

when you have flawless form up

which is 90% of the time

[spark tusk]

you still use shuriken to build

[wide magnet]

if not significantly higher

[spark tusk]

you use strike during dance, and you use storm outside of dance if flawless is up

if flawless is not up, you use stab

[wide magnet]

true..

[spark tusk]

and apparently you now try to keep FW up with storm in dance?

I don't know that sounds like it was a recent developemnt

with the changes

[wide magnet]

do you take that talent

(silent storm)

[fallow nimbus]

You use 1 100% crit from rotten for storm

[thick cedar]

So with the new DS raid setup should Evis be the highest dmg dealer?

[alpine wraith]

yea just made a video about it just in case you get used to it fast

evis was always highest for ST

[spark tusk]

glad I have a rotten tracker

honestly was considering getting rid of it

[wide magnet]

so many talents that should just be built in

lol

[spark tusk]

so glad I dragged my feet

[alpine wraith]

it was always useful FW affected nimble

just not enough to actually change rotation around it

[spark tusk]

there's a lesson kids, always procrastinate it might mean you don't ever have to do the work

[alpine wraith]

so no need to teach people for almost 0 gain

[thick cedar]

Its like 50% higher than the next spell for me, i fear I maybe missing something.

[alpine wraith]

nah evis trucks

big stonks

[fallow nimbus]

It's 2 builders after sod

Not that hard to remember

[wide magnet]

u just use storm instead of sstrike first global of dance

ye?

[alpine wraith]

no

[fallow nimbus]

No

[alpine wraith]

you consume rotten withs trike

[wide magnet]

or do you symbols before

[alpine wraith]

finish then use storm

rotten has 2 stacks

[fallow nimbus]

Storm munches both stacks

[alpine wraith]

there is a bug where rotten uses both so you dont use it there

[wide magnet]

ah

is it never ss storm sectec

what's the loss on that

[fallen kite]

is sub starting to pop off now with DS buffs or naw

[alpine wraith]

on st yes

for m+ people need to try it more

[fallen kite]

ah okay

[oak portal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wide magnet]

do you know, @alpine wraith ?

[alpine wraith]

why would you use 2 builders

if premed strike already caps cps

that one would be a big L

[wide magnet]

dm stack and vuln for sectec since it is physical

[alpine wraith]

monumental ayaya tehee moment

most of sec tech is shadow

[wide magnet]

on the tooltip it is only physical

[alpine wraith]

imagine trusting blizz toolips

[wide magnet]

every time i ask these questions i just get sad

there are only sad answers

[glacial tartan]

:<

[wide magnet]

i guess the tooltip does say they're "shadow" clones :^)

so you should expect them to deal shadow damage with the name of a weapon trait from 8 years ago

[spark tusk]

I mean it’s ok how would you know it’s not like you can see them

[wide magnet]

lmfao true

[short radish]

remember that time where blizzard said they buffed black powder, but they didn't?

good times

[unkempt trench]

I just simmed this and their all close so should I take Hero mad queen, Myth dead-eye spyglass or Myth random helm (which I will catalyst) from vault?

[tulip token]

I want evi to hit like this all the time pls

[thick cedar]

Is that in DS?

[tulip token]

No trickster

[thick cedar]

Good lord, did everything stack? What ilvl?

[tulip token]

I am 636 and I sent everything going into the damage amp phase but I saw like an 8mil crit and was like dang and then I saw the 12m and was like wtf...

Sec tec had an 8.8mil crit in that same fight

[tribal blade]

supercharger+dance+pot+radiant power proc i assume

but that's a beefy evis gdamn

[thick cedar]

Its certinaly beefy.. 😮

[tulip token]

Yeah it had to be something wild. I did the key again on a 10 and only got 4.6m evi and 6.4m sec tec

If my log would post correctly I could look

[tribal blade]

oh were you buffed by the affix

i don't even know what the affix is this week, but i see it down there

[tulip token]

Oh probably, It is the vers/cd one

[tribal blade]

must be that yeah

[light imp]

Radiant power on mh/of is better for M+ i assume

[tulip token]

Ima be honest this log is confusing the crap out of me

[tulip token]

Wtf is this lmfao

[topaz raptor]

Did you die with the buff

[tulip token]

No but I did port out and swap specs after first boss. Maybe that did it?

[topaz raptor]

The log missed recording it fading, could’ve been leaving combat or something too

[tulip token]

Sadly, radiant power and pot were not in that 12m evi. Now I wonder what it could of been lol

[small hemlock]

on the wowhead guide it says in st to use SB After sec tech is that right?

[tribal blade]

yes, sectec isn't buffed by blades

so that way the first strike consumes premed to give you full CPs

you get very little value from having blades up at the start of dance, so you can delay it for later into flag buff

[small hemlock]

ok cool

other than that is there anything else really different since before the rework

s

seems like the same spec

[eager locust]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

there's a few things revolving dancing on sectec's cd now

and sending naked symbols/sectec before next cd set

@lunar bluff i see you

good luck in there

[lunar bluff]

superrrr hard key

[tribal blade]

hopefully your tank doesn't murder you on 2nd boss

[half comet]

trickster still on any cleave in raid?

[plush roost]

For sure

[lunar bluff]

evoker did

[plush roost]

Nice!

[tribal blade]

no way, what happened

[light imp]

Poppin off in a +10 mists, the warlock is 633 ilvl, im 621

[lunar bluff]

the evoker grabbed mobs on the 3rd boss, he said he did ti with spatial paradox? not sure

[tribal blade]

grabbed mobs on 3rd boss?? while you guys were flying?

[lunar bluff]

or 2nd boss whoops

idk he said he pulled mobs with spatial on accident

[tribal blade]

damn that's rough

did it cause a wipe?

[jaunty umbra]

spatial doubles the range of fire breath but visual remains the same

common aug L

[strange chasm]

ok did a 15 siege

ds sub actually NUKES bosses

[lunar bluff]

ytuh full wipe on boss that had like 60mil

[wide magnet]

how terrible is the binding of binding

[modest delta]

how far behind is DS from trickster

[left ledge]

Yeah the damage is definitely pretty insane

Boring gameplay

[strange chasm]

not sure what the dungeon slice diff is though

because the boss damage DS does is cracked

[left ledge]

Dslice isn’t updated is it

Like the sheet sims

I didn’t check since yday

So idk

[strange chasm]

I think it is

[left ledge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[left ledge]

Eh idk

But yeah DS is basically just a better version of df s3 sub

Only complaint is like others pointed out can be kinda cringe capping out cp for DN sometimes

But it doesn’t happen often enough to be annoying and also only happens outside of cds

[strange chasm]

I think trickster is more fun though and based off the aoe sims will blast that still in keys

but in raid ds slams

[upbeat sorrel]

do we go DS or tricksta on queen

[hazy breach]

Yesnt

Its updated after the patch but doesnt include the BP change for trickster as it hasnt been pushed yet. I forgor 💀

The dslice sim i did with that had trickster roughly 2% ahead

[hazy breach]

The first boss classic is overall on the first boss being similar but then you check the breakdown and the others have like 50% on boss and youre like 80%

[novel plaza]

so when do we press BP now? above 5 tar?

[strange chasm]

same with 2nd boss lmao. im at 200mil 2nd dps is at 120mil on boss

[short radish]

are you mid prog?

or just starting

[strange chasm]

This is BP after 5 targets with trickster now correct?

[upbeat sorrel]

just starting

but i am kinda cooked at sub so i need to learn the spec as well

[short radish]

i think DS will do more overall

but i tried it for a few pulls and it felt a bit wack so went back to trickster

granted i'd done 180 pulls as trickster already

[ember hound]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[strange chasm]

are these big sec tech hits

[upbeat sorrel]

is finishing on 6+ combo points what im supposed to do as DS

[blazing plover]

were you doing silken court prog before that key?

or maybe just those 2 were 😛

[clever delta]

if you really need to speed up your opener as trisckter, would you rather strike flag evis cds or strike flag rupture cds

[swift tinsel]

initial thought would be rupture bc your second finisher in dance is evisc

and you're missing a lil bit of snd uptime but you're not realllly missing out on the benefit of thousand cuts or attack speed

[alpine valley]

i played sub in amyrdrassil, tried it last week, bro i don't remember anything

😄

[upbeat sorrel]

Is using second finisher as evis better cause of danse macabre?

[hazy breach]

During your flag+blades window you have to use sectech as your first finisher to get a second one inside the burst

Outside of that burst it doesnt really matter, you could use sectech as the second one if you want as long as it doesnt make you delay flag (aka if sectech isnt ready when you want to flag)

[iron fjord]

How are the cooldown timings now? Still sending 2 dances and sods on cds yes? Do we send shadow dances alone? Not getting enough sods for all dances tbh, especially in m+

[hazy breach]

2 of each during blades+flag

Then you try to squeeze in as many as possible inbetween while making sure you can still 2x during cds

[iron fjord]

well, i guess that's pretty clear x)

[hazy breach]

Also sounds odd that you would have more dances than SoDs

[iron fjord]

really? I was hitting dummies for a while now and it always happened

[lilac stag]

@hazy breach I know DS got the love, did you mess with apl at all to prio BP higher at lower target counts with Tricky?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[lilac stag]

any gains?

[hazy breach]

Use second rotten charge for storm

Then bp at 5

[lilac stag]

Storm still eating both? I didn’t check that on reset

[hazy breach]

Yes

Thats why you use the second one

So strike > sectech > storm > bp

[lilac stag]

Makes sense

assuming not in sims yet. APL was still a month old on simc git

[hazy breach]

Not pushed yet no

[brisk onyx]

What

[lilac stag]

it’s not a bug it’s a feature. ~Subtlety

[iron fjord]

i hit dummies again, still more dances than sods

is that really surprising in an aoe scenario?

[fair stump]

What the fuck

Is that the total amount of the three hits?

[hazy breach]

Are you playing without the extra sod charges or something

[fair stump]

or just the first one

[hazy breach]

Its court i think

So its +100%

[tribal blade]

i assume he's running DB build

with 1 death perception

[fair stump]

Yeah but 11m? damn

[round latch]

11mil 😂

[fair stump]

That's why I was asking if it was including the damage from all three hits

[hazy breach]

No

[fair stump]

Because I don't think my details does

[hazy breach]

Its just the highest hit

[iron fjord]

exactly

[hazy breach]

Aka one of the clones

[iron fjord]

did i did an oopsie?

oh i did

[tribal blade]

if you run DB build it's gonna be a bit scuffed

[iron fjord]

holy smokes lemme change that

[tribal blade]

running x2 symbols and rotten is better i think

feels better at least

[iron fjord]

yea it is

thanks

[strange chasm]

That was during a key with trick build

[hazy breach]

Presumably its siege/mists/city

With damage amps and possibly an aug

[strange chasm]

Eleem is too smart

No Aug but mists

[iron fjord]

when dn is up: evis>secteq even in flag burst?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[iron fjord]

thx

[topaz agate]

Does sec tech consume darkest night

[hazy breach]

No

You need to use a 7cp evis to use darkest night

[jaunty heath]

Darkest night secret tech would go hard

[alpine wraith]

yea man

[hazy breach]

Would lead to very annoying lineup stuff

[jaunty heath]

True but big number make heart rate go up

[pliant topaz]

i am simply playing trickster and pressing BP

and im happy

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

[lilac stag]

Did you see the tweet about the coup animations?

[iron fjord]

i cannot get ds to work in m+ :(

i just perform worse than on trickster

way worse actually

[pliant topaz]

yeah its kinda w/e imo

[lilac stag]

hilarious that we basically had no idea that it’s there since we actively avoid the death charge and while spamming abilities it cancels the animation.

[alpine wraith]

yea i explained it a bit

[pliant topaz]

its not there

[alpine wraith]

there is also a new bug where you dont do dmg with coup

if snd is not active

[green kindle]

i haven't tried new DS yet but i still feel like it is worse than trickster in m+ no? like if you click BP in aoe that's no prio dmg compared to trickster?

prob better for overall but idk trickster still seems better to me

[alpine wraith]

DS has more prio because of DN

[pliant topaz]

it only procs from ranged melee has no animation

[hazy breach]

The opposite, its more prio

[alpine wraith]

but dmg is a bit diff

[green kindle]

really? even if u click BP?

maybe i'm underestimating DN

[pliant topaz]

yes

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker bp does 85% of the damage of eviscerate

[lilac stag]

yes

[alpine wraith]

yea you are kinda understimating it

also mark does a fuckton of dmg

it can crit for 1 mil

every finisher

man i hate DS so much passive krangle

[hazy breach]

So as long as you have like 2/3 more targets the damage from singular focus is gonna make BP do more damage than eviscerate wouldve

[green kindle]

ah true i forgot about singular focus

fair enough

so u just click BP on 2+ targets?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[green kindle]

do u think DS is gonna be better on silken court too now? i wonder

[hazy breach]

Prob not

[green kindle]

on queen it should be probably i assume

[hazy breach]

I dont think its gonna end up being better in m+ either

But ye for raid for sure

BP just overtuned af

[green kindle]

i'll try it on court i guess

i wonder how good clicking BP on court will be xd

mark has to be really annoying on court i'll hate my life

[alpine wraith]

not really

you just strike

[green kindle]

ah true, i never really tried DS with sub i guess it's far less annoying than assa

[alpine wraith]

you can actually do a little trick dont tell anyone

you can strike a scarab about to die

and you get DN

when it dies

and witness

after you pop the DN

[green kindle]

yeah i was just thinking about that, DS is prob a lot nicer to play on sub

for m+ as well, easy way to get DN

i'll cook with it

[alpine wraith]

uh i mean it is not that easy vs trickster

that one is just plug and play

[half comet]

do you shuriken storm on 2 target in dance

with DS aoe

[alpine wraith]

only if witness is up

[half comet]

nvm

[alpine wraith]

otherwise strike

[half comet]

read the pin lol

seems like DS is actually simple

[alpine wraith]

yes it is not super hard

just can be annoying sometimes

[rugged condor]

i noticed in logs and sims that with DS we dont want sectech first finisher after smybols anymore? top logs and sims are using sectech as 2nd finisher

[half comet]

paying attention to supercharger for DN prob good

[alpine wraith]

you only dont sec tech first outside of cds

so the dances in between

otherwise you want to sec tech first because if not you wont get 2 inside transmitter

it is super tight

[rugged condor]

oh i see, like the first symbols-sectech in your cds, you'd want to use sectech as your first finisher.

[alpine wraith]

ideally you also enter dance with 1 mark you can sec tech and DN both charged

yea transmitter is only 15 secs

so to get 2 sec techs because DS does not have super cdr you need to sec tech first

[half comet]

i was reading that we can do shadowstrike sec tec storm powder or seomthing

in aoe

is that the case

[alpine wraith]

yea you can strike once in dance because of premed

[lilac stag]

and storm eats both rotten

[rugged condor]

i assume something like this is pretty common, use sectech asap for first dance-symbols window, then use 2nd symbols a bit early just to get the energy to recoup cdr on sectech, to fit in your transmitter window

[alpine wraith]

yea

but that is also because that evis is a DN one i think

i didnt really count the finishers but it seems like

but yea as you saw there sec tech if the popped transmitter well just as he did first one

had only like 1 sec left after the clones hit on the second one

[lilac stag]

Threading the needle just not enjoyable

[alpine wraith]

the best one is when you get parried

[lilac stag]

Imagine getting parried

[alpine wraith]

we need a coup emote

[lilac stag]

[alpine wraith]

but cooler

like goremaw

[lilac stag]

🥕

[alpine wraith]

[lilac stag]

I’ll make a uwu one this week

or googly eyes

[keen dome]

googly eyes make everything better and funnier

[lilac stag]

Agreed

[alpine wraith]

yea coup with googly eyes seems cool

oops killed you again

teheee

sorreeey

[half comet]

is there anything weird you do in ST with ds

[alpine wraith]

you cant dance as much as trickster

so have to be careful

may need to delay flag a bit sometimes

and not dance at all in between without CB

the symbols+secte ch are also fewer

[jolly pasture]

Prolly asked a million times now so sorry but are ppl playing ds in keys now?

[alpine wraith]

not likely some people will try

i will do some videos but right now at least in sims they seem almost the same

[half comet]

oh only poppiung dances with cb

[alpine wraith]

if you do big pulls DS may come a bit ahead but who knows

[half comet]

interesting

[alpine wraith]

yea you just dont have enough CDR

so you need to send some more naked symbols

[iron fjord]

tried for a bit but trickster works better for me. could be a skill issue

[lilac stag]

I’ll get one sorted out

[sly shore]

What's st usage of sod

As deathstalker

[slate basin]

Ds sims about 4% higher than trickster for me in dslice 🤷‍♂️

[lilac stag]

DS should be closer to 5-6 ahead in ST

Trickster should be ahead in dslice once apl gets updated.

[sly shore]

seems there is a sod on it's own at times

💀

[alpine wraith]

yea you cant risk sec tech cdr

after using the dance with CB in between cds

you sometimes can get sec tech+sod

but other times you cant

from 3 min+ it becomes super rough on that front

[sly shore]

just playing catchup

[alpine wraith]

yes because we are dangerous already on dance cdr

using ONE dance in between

sometimes have to delay flag 4-5 secs

for deathstalker instead of 1 stack+3x secs left may need it to be 1 stack+2x secs left

to be able to double dance

[lilac stag]

Maybe tier fixes it

[sly shore]

probably need some actual rules

to make it clearer

if cd's are x secs off

don't dance

only sod

[alpine wraith]

maybe when i get more data

[lilac stag]

Play trickster. The end.

[sly shore]

💀

in keys it's easier

st is the problem

keys can just mindless dance + sod

[lilac stag]

New BP rules on trickster should have it ahead

In keys

[sly shore]

how many targets is it now

[lilac stag]

5

[sly shore]

that's a bit of a reduction from 12

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

short convo

[sly shore]

yuh

basically just do st rotation until 5

then swap evis for bp

ez clap

[lilac stag]

just don’t mess up rotten

[sly shore]

yeah