its the blacksheep
#subtlety
tepid trellis
spark tusk
Sub stronk tho, just less popular
tribal blade
i think if most people tried new sub now they would enjoy it way more
they just remember sub being a clusterfuck of cds all over the place
plus sub is not the absolute pinnacle of dps atm, so no reason to play it unless you're doing the end bosses of raid on mythic
round latch
its the blacksheep
its because u dont educate the masses for the specc
coz u dont care
make 10 vid series,ask ppl to help u if u are bored,u would be an amazing selling point
round latch
rugged condor
!craft
pliant topaz
just live the tripple worm set boss dies ez
plush roost
If boss is 10% going into third phase just break the inside layer of eggs and burn boss
Idr if theres 3 worms on the inside layer or not
But yeah, if everyone kicks
Boss is dead
Fuck parsing esp on a first time kill pull
lilac stag
oh my god is the sheet actually back lol
What’s funny is we have just enough conversation in here, even though spec play rate is abysmal, that you didn’t see it.
tribal blade
What’s funny is we have just enough conversation in here, even though spec play ...
haha i tend not to read through past convos sometimes
i like to just drop in and start blabbing
tepid trellis
oh my god is the sheet actually back lol
cooldowns on cooldown
there is your sheet
tribal blade
i love it when it's simple stupid
btw failed a 15 mists today and played it as sub
and kept up with the arcane mage on 1st boss
mint plank
How is sub in 12-14s?
tepid trellis
thaths a bit silly, you should really try and time those keys
tribal blade
How is sub in 12-14s?
good
mint plank
Been really enjoying it in 10s
tribal blade
thaths a bit silly, you should really try and time those keys
fdk was bit low
he did high dmg in some other keys, not sure what happened in the mists
we both did ~2mil overall in 14 NW
tepid trellis
been asked to do title keys this season again, not sure im gonna do it tho
mint plank
Any good sub content creators?
tribal blade
he's at around 3200 IO atm
and said it's absolutely miserable trying to time keys
he might "go afk" he said
death affix just makes doing keys so unfun
tribal blade
Any good sub content creators?
mint plank
I’ll check it out, thanks
tribal blade
kinda hard to find M+ sub rogue content
lilac stag
been asked to do title keys this season again, not sure im gonna do it tho
Is there anything else to do outside of wow game wise?
lilac stag
Tetris sounds more fun than title hunting
tepid trellis
im just playing lost ark with friends
tribal blade
Yeah that’s what I’m looking for tbh
in this key casual hearths out to swap to sub for the last 2 bosses
tepid trellis
ive only logged into wow one time since we killed ansurek
which was our reclear this week where i was in on silken court
tribal blade
oh casual did that NW before the rework, it's old rotation
@tepid trellis it's become difficult to find keys that are above 14 in lfg
tepid trellis
lmao u think im gonna pug one singular key?
tepid trellis
id never pug
tribal blade
but iirc you had a team
tepid trellis
yeh ive got people to play with if i wanna push
tribal blade
well at least right now you can just dive right into it
don't have to worry about push weeks
or 2 weeks worth of IO
you can just get IO for 1 key once and it's done
most frustrating thing right now is you just rack up too many deaths and the key is over
tribal blade
i'm dying on the inside every day
tepid trellis
what is dead may never die
tribal blade
what is dead may never die
vale pine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxWON8Br65E&t=2s
baited, i thought casual played sub
tribal blade
baited, i thought casual played sub
i'm not sure if he's tried it for a full key yet
he probably has
vale pine
i think we had a quick chat some weeks ago
tribal blade
right now as i'm pushing the keys i always run as sub are DB, mists and CoT
vale pine
and sub isn't too bad in team combos with a lot of aoe
tribal blade
yeah! it's a lot of that
vale pine
rogue mythic+ balance is a bit weird atm
or lets say rogue balance
where there is just not enough incentive to ever play outlaw or sub due to tuning
tribal blade
yeah it's a bit annoying
vestal escarp
tribal blade
i wish sub wasn't target capped with trickster
i also feel SO useless during down time as sub
on the ~30 seconds before next cd set when you're holding
it feels pretty bad
vestal escarp
I lock sub on wake and city
tribal blade
sin is really good on the 1st half of NW
but yeah i really like playing sub in CoT
CoT is one of those keys where there's just a fuckton of damage going out on every boss
tribal blade
i timed 14 NW today as sin
vestal escarp
Evis flurry did more overall on that pull consistenly for me
tribal blade
interesting
vestal escarp
Point is i pressed storm too few times to put up fw
And im going around with 22% crit
So i stop bothering and evis the gatekeeper
tribal blade
yeah that's the shitty part about sub trickster atm
i still think if they added UB to storm that would fix it
vestal escarp
That pull you have to send asap if you wanna do some overall dmg
You're not allowed to press storm 8 10 times and put up some ruptures
Smallies get deleted anyway and you let others pad
keen dome
Gapped a ret in a +10 Dawnbreaker by 200k DPS. I'm blastin' today
This affix si so nice for Sub
Just a huge dollop of Versatiltiy and CDR so we blas tmore
keen dome
Oh yeah, you don't get it above 12 haha
tribal blade
you reminded me it's a thing haha
keen dome
This one is the "kill the ghost xal'atath, get 30% versa and 20% faster cooldowns for 20? seconds"
It owns
vestal escarp
Sub good in pug cause you dont int boss dmg as sin
keen dome
Yeah
vestal escarp
In premades you can get funnel targets arranged as sin
tribal blade
yeah boss damage is really good in DB as sub
vestal escarp
But i also think the sin situations is very nice and the talents are balances
Aoe dmg is strong but pure st is weak so if you wanna compensate you have to make sacrificies
keen dome
Do you blast Rasha'nan on pull or do you use your CD's on the big mob before her?
tribal blade
iron wire is crazy good in NW, SV and GB
vestal escarp
Enha and frost have the luxury to blast all scenarios
vestal escarp
Do you blast Rasha'nan on pull or do you use your CD's on the big mob before her...
They're up
tribal blade
Do you blast Rasha'nan on pull or do you use your CD's on the big mob before her...
always send everything you have on that mob
keen dome
That's what I thought, yeah
vestal escarp
Miniboss on pull at rash and below
keen dome
Yeah
tribal blade
those mini bosses are really hard on higher key levels
vestal escarp
90s cds are good
tribal blade
that's the most common way to fail DB
keen dome
I always blow that mob up 'cos it sucks and is dangerous and wastes time, and it's not like P1 of Rash'anan actually matters
tribal blade
is fucking up the mini bosses
keen dome
just do bombs
vestal escarp
Yeah but 90s allow you to send on rash p1
tribal blade
well the luxury of doing higher key levels is less thinking about when to send cds
so you can cd the mini boss and all your cds will be back up for rashanan
vestal escarp
As sin idk a deathmark on a dying boss is always way less that a deathmark on the pull after
tribal blade
unless you have an arcane mage in your group
keen dome
Truth, yeah
rain smelt
Are DM still simming falsely higher than trickster ST?
vale pine
saw 1% 4 times and couldnt get ovinax down
you will soon™️
vale pine
Are DM still simming falsely higher than trickster ST?
only marginal
rain smelt
Not 2-3%?
vale pine
exactly like 2-3%
rain smelt
Cool thanks
vale pine
it means both are about equal
sinful sluice
nah but seriously
coup dash isnt real
probs shouldnt press anything when im breaking eggs
lilac stag
nah but seriously
Are you manually bringing up the minimap or is that a WA?
lilac stag
Hmm I don’t remember seeing it in NS.
short radish
you gotta turn it on
sinful sluice
yea theres setting called "enable map"
short radish
well shit. Time to find that.
short radish
coup dash isnt real
i did that on rashanan when i had the poison wave
and i was the middle one
so i killed a bunch of ppl with it
chrome fern
please excuse my ignorance, im sure it's been answered alot, why in the opener are we delaying SB till after Sectec?
lilac stag
Different cd timings. Sectech doesn’t benefit.
lilac stag
Look at how long they last
chrome fern
to cover the end fo second dance window?
but if so, i dont understand why it cant be at the same time as pot/ trinket
sure one gcd after dance ends of full cp gen isn't that worth
lilac stag
Flag is effectively 24 seconds. Sblades is 16. You’re trying to maximize sblades window
chrome fern
or is it some weird timing with sectec cd where you have to delay the second dance
tribal blade
the first strike in dance is full combo points because of premed
and sectec doesn't benefit from blades
so it's optimal to use blades after sectec
tribal blade
imagine if they left blades at 20 secs
lilac stag
be it timings or what benefits
lilac stag
imagine if they left blades at 20 secs
Imagine how bad everything is in 11.1 if nothing gets addressed
tribal blade
surely we get a bit more attention
chrome fern
i guess what im confised on is that dance is 8 seconds, so you're only gonna have 2 dance windows with blades as is
so delaying 2 gc'ds just means that you have blades when the second dance ends
lilac stag
You’re delaying 5 gcds
chrome fern
not from dance
the desync from flag isnt my issue, it's the desync from dance
i get that it means it will line up with the end of flag
but the end of flag is outside a dance window
lilac stag
And the delay with dance is from premed and sectech
tribal blade
if you press blades along with flag
tribal blade
it's less so lining it up with anything, it's more so you gain very little from blades being active at the start of dance
chrome fern
i realise it's a loss, but surely it is a tiny loss, because all it means is you dont have flag + blades buff on an outside dance finisher
lilac stag
If it was a sm or within range of being a wash, it would be recommended to just send it.
I’m sure one of the greens or fuu could give you a more exact number.
I don’t remember what the exact percent was
chrome fern
i play the margins of accepting a dps loss for the gains i get by not bundling the whole ass tihng anyway
vale pine
you want to use blades later because of premediation
lilac stag
If you want to bind it put it with sectech
spark tusk
like if you are learning the new version of sub you're not going to do -20% dps
by just bundling it all together
if you just want to simplify what you're doing to onboard and learn
lilac stag
this is ultimately a krangled min/max spec.
chrome fern
i meant bundling as in fumbling in that case, but yeah
lilac stag
Blades is always going with Sectech so that would be the macro if you have to have one.
spark tusk
You have my permission to bundle it all together in the interest of simplifying things as you learn, but know in the back of your mind you do want to eventually shift it to after
also yeh, premed, that makes sense
chrome fern
it's not too bad, it's not overly dissimilar to when i had to learn shadowdust
spark tusk
being a waste of those free combo points
chrome fern
specifically with snd now being gone
lilac stag
Just a little brain rewiring if you were used to dust.
tribal blade
you want to integrate min maxes sooner rather than later
chrome fern
it's that time of the season where i level my second rogue, and it's a sub main XD
tribal blade
because relearning muscle memory really blows
chrome fern
gonna be hard to rewire not rupturing after flag
tribal blade
yeah things have changed a bit
lilac stag
lol said that twice already fuu
tribal blade
i actually didn't have too hard a time adjusting to using blades after sectec
because i love how premed gives full CPs
so that was always on my mind with the new rotation
chrome fern
is it safe to macro blades to SS?
tribal blade
you would pop blades on pull if you did that
tribal blade
it would likely work
but your global after sectec might not necessarily be a builder
vale pine
i need to admit
chrome fern
fair fair, might be better to go with sectec then, im just trying to avoid having to press 2 buttons inside one gcd
vale pine
i still waste shadowcraft refunds every now and then
tribal blade
i tend to do the same thing trying to simplify things, i get it
vale pine
it does not happen much, but can happen
tribal blade
i still waste shadowcraft refunds every now and then
S A M E
lilac stag
fair fair, might be better to go with sectec then, im just trying to avoid havin...
Totally get it.
tribal blade
I drop RS more often than not now. I’ve had it with that bug.
yeah it's miserable
tribal blade
i'm actually curious how much of a dps loss the RS bug is
lilac stag
Me with a .5-.8 gcd refund from RS
tribal blade
i can sometimes predict the RS bug is gonna happen
and i wait it out and snipe that refund
and it feels good
but if you mess up and the refund doesn't come, you just killed a gcd
lilac stag
If it was just a short delay w/e. the random of any point in the gcd can fuck off
spark tusk
I drop RS more often than not now. I’ve had it with that bug.
I'm almost there
tribal blade
it's so funny that single bug was a big contributor to kush not wanting to play sub in keys anymore
spark tusk
Like I've been thinking about it and get that much closer to the edge
of dropping rs
it's enraging
spark tusk
I tried to make a WA to predict if it'll happen but
the game seems to just not be consistent enough to rely on that
and it wasn't helping
lilac stag
Nope. It’s totally hosed rng
spark tusk
fair fair, might be better to go with sectec then, im just trying to avoid havin...
I think that something that helped me going into the season
Er, patch
is that at the same time I also did a bit of keybind redesigning
not much but I moved sectec and blades around a bit
just to try something new now given the order of operations
I hadn't adjusted yet to sepsis being gone, and with er gone too those two buttons I had open for them were open
It just happened to be a perfect time to also relearn the new prio and sequencing
so
lilac stag
Fix potion. 
spark tusk
May be something to consider, just to refresh your keybinds so you also refresh your memory with the sequencing, so the whole thing is a new learning
Cause for me the old muscle memory of the old rotation is intrinsically paired with the keybind arrangement I had
change the keybinds, it helps changing the sequencing
works for me sometimes, may help for you, may not
chrome fern
Cause for me the old muscle memory of the old rotation is intrinsically paired w...
while learning, ima be hitting my kb macro for sure
well button, seeing as there is nothing macro'd to it atm
tribal blade
the sub opener is very much a piano moment
chrome fern
in reality it's no different to envenom > dm > shiv > > kb on assass
shouldn't be too hard, its jsut the order / keys i press
chrome fern
i liken sectec to kb, and symbols to shiv
hardy falcon
Yo guys, in terme of passibe trinket, do you pref shadow ritual knife or empowering crystal from dawbreaker ? (Active is Transmitter ofc)
alpine wraith
knife is usually better but depends on ilvl of both
vale pine
Yo guys, in terme of passibe trinket, do you pref shadow ritual knife or empower...
seconds slot does not matter as much
if you have a heroic knife its rly good
hardy falcon
champion knfe / hero crystal
vale pine
sim angle
lilac stag
Yo guys, in terme of passibe trinket, do you pref shadow ritual knife or empower...
626 crystal probably slightly ahead
But sim
hardy falcon
but rogue is my alt, i'm in need of guilded crest to upgrade my crafted pieces and hopefully myth track next week xd
lilac stag
but rogue is my alt, i'm in need of guilded crest to upgrade my crafted pieces a...
That doesn’t prevent you from simming.
hardy falcon
That doesn’t prevent you from simming.
ofc
hardy falcon
yay transmitter was a no brainer and was updated instantly
lilac stag
I’m 633 with 2x 626
hardy falcon
since this char is an alt and i have 600+ guilded to catch up i'm not really sure how i'll manage that
maybe i'll go for best upgrade quickly and less long term optimization
lilac stag
weapon likely only huge crafted up
lilac stag
Ilvl usually wins after that
hardy falcon
if i don't have a myth one wednesday i'll probably craft the other one
hardy falcon
oh good to know
i'll obvisously sim before doing anything
but i didn't know that
nice
seems like ritual knife 619 is still ahead in both scenarios (st and aoe) for now
will keep crystal in case
vale pine
👍
lilac stag
@vale pine do you have race simc input pinned anywhere?
vale pine
lilac stag
Thanks. Went looking in research and didn’t see it
Hmmm Maghar jumped up. VE actually dropped on ptr.
lilac stag
hmm. Don’t see the VE racial showing up in the sim. Guess it’s not active yet.
lilac stag
New rift nice.
jaunty heath
!wa
velvet nova
wasn't replicating shadows bugged since the first time they made it?
alpine wraith
kinda it has had different bugs
vale pine
wasn't replicating shadows bugged since the first time they made it?
yes but it was a diffrent bug
in bfa
alpine wraith
i just remembered the shitty reason they gave to nerf it from 10% per cp to 2%
and i got mad
old man yells at clouds
vale pine
they nerfed the proc chance because they didn't manage to fix bugs around it
its fine
a lot of development is around being efficient in what you do
alpine wraith
it was not fine tho it becase useless horseshit from best thing ever
vale pine
we had a similar situation with the last season tier set in legion
things are not always great
lilac stag
it was not fine tho it becase useless horseshit from best thing ever
I think it’s fine is fuu’s default filler statement. 
nothing is fine with RS current state.
It’s ok to be critical of something that actively makes the spec worse to play for the user
alpine wraith
current rs is like having a papercut
it can be tolerable
but AAAAAaaAAAaAAaAAAAA
lilac stag
More like a paper cut on each fingertip while trying to eat seasalt & vinegar chips
strange chasm
!wa
strange nebula
Need to change all my bis assa gear to go sub?
vale pine
no
but sub rly likes vers and mastery
so if you have gear withe these 2 stats, might be worth considering
strange nebula
All gear is Crit/mastery atm
vale pine
thats fine if you want to test sub
plush roost
So what is the problem with RS, I havent really touched sub this expansion
Outside of week 1-2 where we didnt use it
static juniper
whats the reason for which sub would prefer vers over crit?
sectech being guaranteed crit almost every 2nd cast?
therefore losing crit value as its one of the core dmg sources?
vale pine
mastery and vers also increase your damage
hazy breach
whats the reason for which sub would prefer vers over crit?
Rotten and CB devalue crit a lot
And if we go deathstalker darkest night ultra devalues it
lilac stag
So what is the problem with RS, I havent really touched sub this expansion
The same as it’s been since 10.2. It’s more noticeable now as RS is a higher dps gain in pure ST
plush roost
Which is what? I only played sub in raid season 3-4 df
Since yknow, outlaw keys were a banger
lilac stag
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
lilac stag
Should be first one listed on the sheet
basically rng delay during a global of if/when the refund happens.
plush roost
Ohhh that yeah that is annoying
mint plank
Is there a count of when I should be using black powder as a finisher?
vale pine
12+
mint plank
Does that mean shuriken tornado is not worth in most cases?
for M+
Im struggling to find good times to use it
pliant topaz
Does that mean shuriken tornado is not worth in most cases?
its pretty good for deathstalker. not so great for trickster.
jaunty heath
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
timid jolt
I’m newer but just been using tornado to burn through moves to reset secret faster 🤷♂️🤷♂️
timid jolt
But man do I screw up some fierce haha all good tho be a while until it’s Gucci
leaden prairie
!wa
carmine portal
MAN mainhand broke on packs before last boss of grim batol...............
spent the whole fight shuriken-storming and black powdering
fun
vale pine
yikes
keen dome
Always worth carrying some Autohammers for emergencies like that.
hidden spade
Is the MDT dungeonroute sims a good way to sim for M+ as sub?
vale pine
dungeon slice is best for gearing
keen dome
used my last one in raid 😢 didn't expect to wipe so much on a 9
haha, valid. we've all been there.
ember hound
do we use tornado in our dance windows or outside of them?
golden totem
do we use tornado in our dance windows or outside of them?
Outside
shell gust
In aoe do we literally want to rupture every single thing before sending cds or is there like a rough cutoff where it's not worth it?
steel zinc
!wa
swift tinsel
I throw out a few as the tank is gathering
usually 3 casts or so then nuke whatever prio target
clever delta
what is rule now if we have ready coup and entering dance? do we still coup or we sectech into coup?
swift tinsel
I'd think with the 4pc you'd wanna sectech first
alpine wraith
you sec tech first now always
clever delta
assa being assa again, it get boring after some time
the numbers are kinda good in sims too, but in raid the gab is much bigger
vale pine
the deathstalkers mark bug is iirc still not in sim
but its irrelevant
deathstalker is competitive on st
so can rly play both
once you add more targets, trickster wins out
tender zenith
Im sure this is a me thing but it shows I only have 66MS but combo points feel laggy sometimes
mild vessel
is sub good for m+
vale pine
Im sure this is a me thing but it shows I only have 66MS but combo points feel l...
might be this bug: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1167
or coup de grace
vale pine
is sub good for m+
yes, but sin is one of the op/meta specs so it does not see play
vale pine
sub is good
its just not op
so depending on key, competing with the OP will be difficult
but this does not make sub bad, its quite good
mild vessel
ive never tried it
vale pine
but if you want to do the absolute best, assassiantion can do more
vale pine
it does not matter tho, both is good
vale pine
subtlety is also a LOT harder to play
mild vessel
oh shit
vale pine
especially in pvp
vale pine
you can ask in #pvp for advise
subtlety has a lot of dynamic in how to use cooldowns
and in pvp it has a lot of cc/mobility to use correctly
but pvp in general is a completely diffrent game
my advise is to just test specs and see what feels better to play
and give yourself time to learn
warm marlin
used my last one in raid 😢 didn't expect to wipe so much on a 9
for the future you should carry a 3rd dagger in bags, since you can still swap weapons in the middle of keys
has saved me a couple of times when things broke in the middle of a fight after being brezzed
dull tinsel
so depending on key, competing with the OP will be difficult
Do you think there's any keys where sub pulls ahead/makes more sense. I've been mostly lurking in the assa channel and seen a few people mention playing sub in GB for example
hazy breach
Mostly dawn, but city, mists and siege are alright
molten citrus
and ik sub is better for pvp i heard
not quite
all 3 specs are good in pvp, i wouldn't choose one because you heard it's 'better', half the time those statements are false
pliant topaz
so you doing nothing wrong by playing it over assassination
pretty sure subs better than sin for NW last 2 bosses and Mist first boss
strange chasm
Sub is just as good tbh from what I've played
The only thing is on ass i can do 3mil + with zero cds on a pack
every single pack
vale pine
pretty sure subs better than sin for NW last 2 bosses and Mist first boss
you could technically spec swap there, or you think its beating assassiantion overall out too
strange chasm
you could technically spec swap there, or you think its beating assassiantion ov...
Sin does decent on NW aswell
I don't think its worth swapping
pliant topaz
you could technically spec swap there, or you think its beating assassiantion ov...
nah u spec swap
pliant topaz
I don't think its worth swapping
it 100% is
strange chasm
Its not the diff between timing and not timing though
strange chasm
Are the rogues swapping at the 16-17 level?
strange chasm
oh interesting
pliant topaz
casual also swaps on NW
vale pine
its just hard for me
strange chasm
I didn't realize when you zone in you are right next to boss
vale pine
to suggest people to spec swap
strange chasm
I thought you zone in at start of dungeon
vale pine
because its a very unique min/max
strange chasm
Ah zone in and die then respawn at the angels
dull tinsel
I can't imagine it's super relevant to spec swap until higher keys
pliant topaz
Ah zone in and die then respawn at the angels
no u zone back in at the angels
vale pine
I can't imagine it's super relevant to spec swap until higher keys
its only in the very high ones#
pliant topaz
I can't imagine it's super relevant to spec swap until higher keys
its not, but also u can time 15s as sub regardless
so all of these sin vs sub stuff isnt really relevent until hard 16/17s
clever delta
just buff sub ok
dull tinsel
Bring back the insane ST funnel 
strange chasm
I just want to not do zero damage
when i don't have cds
It's bad design for dungeons
hazy breach
Bring back the insane ST funnel <:pepe_nice:1044660657158623262>
#assassination has it
weary saffron
I don't think its that big of a time save
not sure if this context helps, but a few mins before this conversation speed's team timed a 16 necrotic with loads left, with that exact swap timing
foggy skiff
is there a bug or something that causes coup de grace to get stuck at 4 stacks and never complete it's cast. It randomly has happened to me twice and not sure if i'm doing something that i can avoid having that happen again?
north heron
Anyone have some advice for Mythic Ulg? My cd timing with mechanics feels terrible. Do I just send everything, even if there is a single beetle? I ended up with so much down time, and I am not sure how to recover from it
alpine wraith
is there a bug or something that causes coup de grace to get stuck at 4 stacks a...
yea you need to alt f4 or die
to fix the bug
spark tusk
is there a bug or something that causes coup de grace to get stuck at 4 stacks a...
you can't really avoid it
It seems to happen when you attempt to cast coup right as a lagspike happens or something
really not much you can do
warm aspen
dang im kinda sadge now
when i first joined we had like a new pin every 3 days lol
but ig we just locked in to our current state now right, 0 balance changes anymore
astral echo
is sub even worth playing without a transmitter?
hazy breach
They typically do way more changes when tiers get launched rather than a couple of months afterwards
spark tusk
when i first joined we had like a new pin every 3 days lol
Every patch is like this everywhere
grave abyss
would you really rather have balance changes every 3 days?
spark tusk
they aren't making changes so no adjustments so no pins
warm aspen
i guess got spoiled this expac with the consistent balance tunings earlier on lmao
spark tusk
Any tips for Mythic ulg/bloodbound if I attempt to pug for cd timings and whatnot?
I remember before 11.0.5 we could pull blades to flag at 1min with dust before the itnermission but
can't do that anymore
alpine wraith
i think i did one about that one not much changes at most you hold cds for like 10 secs
if you are team 2
dusk tusk
can you tell me when to use vanish please?
pliant topaz
For sub if you’re doing keys probably use it for defensive (shield) /utility like dodging mechanics
In raid, after opener, kinda just on cd for the extra cps
dreamy anchor
Hey! Hello!
Could you please explain a few small rotational things to me?
- should I enter shadow dance at low CP e.g. should I always try to go SD -> Ambush -> Secret or is it equal to SD -> Secret?
- if I'm not feeling I'll be getting enough CP for CDR on SD (like in heavy movement cases) can I still go Symbols -> Secret -> Coup?
- do I pop 2nd SD back to back during CDs?
mint plank
ok finally broke 2mil using sub in a key
Do you log these? I'd love to look through them and see what you're doing
young roost
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
sinful sluice
ok finally broke 2mil using sub in a key
Nice
sinful sluice
can you not cast tricks of trade if you are horde and target is ally?
tepid trellis
in instances its fine
ebon tiger
neural silencer definitely stops you though 
sinful sluice
oh ic
pliant topaz
Hey! Hello!
Could you please explain a few small rotational things to me?
1. s...
- the full shadow dance entrance cp condition is a bit complex and convoluted. if you want fully optimized answer, then you want to enter dance if one of the following conditions are met : you have 1 or fewer combo points. if youre deathstalker, then you have the darkest night buff up and 7 combo points. if youre trickster, then effective combo points >=6. (supercharger counts).
basically, you dance if youre <=1 cp or >=6 combo points (if you have supercarger this means 3 cps) - yes. its very important that you have 2 dances and 2 sods for cds. if u think u cannot farm enough cps by the time youre sending main cds, u can sod + sectech. there are times when u can also sectech without dance or sod as long as u can get it back before flag cd is up.
- yes u want to maxmimize the damage you do inside your large flawless form stacks that u get from your sectech+ coup+ disorineting strike hits
round latch
ok finally broke 2mil using sub in a key
Streaminfo plz
sinful sluice
SHE IS SO DEAD
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it feels so good
this is my first season playing wow and i have never felt this much dopamine in other games/or doing anything
tribal blade
Do you log these? I'd love to look through them and see what you're doing
nah i don't, sorry friend
tribal blade
Streaminfo plz
NO STREAM BECAUSE IM BAD
round latch
NO STREAM BECAUSE IM BAD
subbies aint into streaming
also ur quality index is much much higher than any average rogue out there so no
not an excuse!
need to convince more good rogues to stream stuff
but who
iron fjord
aight fams, new guild first time in a prog guild for me. They want the best rogue spec from my ass. Are fuu's sims the answer and I go outlaw? I really like playing sub man
pliant topaz
realistically your choice or rogue spec doesnt really matter. whichever youre best at and enjoy the most is probably more important
sims arent gospell, you can look at warcraftlogs to get a better understanding of the distribution
all 3 are fine
iron fjord
lmao
pliant topaz
i guess yeua
iron fjord
is rogue ever fine
round latch
yeah rogue very cool
prolly sin averages out better but sub isnt bad
just takes time coz its complicated
iron fjord
well if looking and warcraftlogs assa should be the choice? I sim equal on assa and sub so idc for now ig
round latch
or can be
yes currently assa is the ''fotm'' spec
but ST isnt rly crazy
very reliable but not crazy
sinful sluice
got few questions regarding kyveza-
is cheat death worthless here due to execution? do i take elusiveness?
also, which talent do you guys recommend, assa or sub here?
iron fjord
cheat death works
pliant topaz
got few questions regarding kyveza-
is cheat death worthless here due to execut...
no u can cheat repear (the execute)
sinful sluice
okok
pliant topaz
both sub and sin are fine
iron fjord
you will see big sub representation by me now
pliant topaz
glad to see it
round latch
the more the better sub deserves attention
pliant topaz
got few questions regarding kyveza-
is cheat death worthless here due to execut...
some few tricks for kyveza, if u learn to play intermission well, you wont need cloak for it. healthpot/healthstone are enough.
that way, u can cloak the queensbnae u get
sinful sluice
what do you mean by intermission?
pliant topaz
but also u can play it safe and save claok for intermissions
iron fjord
that way, u can cloak the queensbnae u get
does it remove the balls or just pop them?
pliant topaz
does it remove the balls or just pop them?
cloak before it hits u. u dont get the damagae, or dot, or balls
iron fjord
this phase?
nono, the phase with the pizza slices and dashes
sinful sluice
ahh i see
iron fjord
cloak before it hits u. u dont get the damagae, or dot, or balls
that's huge damn
thanks
pliant topaz
pliant topaz
boss targets players, then shadows dash to plays, do damage, leave a nasty dot, after a few second u explode and shoot out orbs
queensbane is the dot
sinful sluice
oki
iron fjord
ok finally broke 2mil using sub in a key
i would be interested in logs too, far away from 2 mil tbh
sinful sluice
not sending out balls or dot/damage seems so good
pliant topaz
it does very large damage on mythic and cn kinda 100-0 u if u dont get prio healed / have defensives. but u can cloak it
young roost
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tepid trellis
how good is sub in kyveza?
its good
strange chasm
@pliant topaz for sub are you only tracking flawless form?
pliant topaz
fazed too
strange chasm
We can make those was pretty easily right?
tepid trellis
armin too dentge
strange chasm
it has the nimble fury icon tho
pliant topaz
breh episode 2/3 were insane
pliant topaz
hmge idk im a huge fan! and season 2 is somehow even more insane
pliant topaz
and the stuff they showed in episode 3 lore wise is just making me spiral
pliant topaz
Imagine getting bullied by a raccoon
racoons are vicious man
pliant topaz
spark tusk
it has the nimble fury icon tho
That aura is just flawless
I just used the nimble icon
wind canopy
I hate you guys for getting that song stuck in my head for a couple of days
spark tusk
because that's why you care about it
strange chasm
I got it figured lmao. Ur WA pack has it but just uses the nimble furry icon
wind canopy
https://tenor.com/view/%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%86-%...
How I see Stealthi honestly
pliant topaz
same
strange chasm
!wa
crystal rain
is there any benefit of going trickster vs deathstalker in ST fights? like sikran for example?
crystal rain
ight, that leads me to my next question. when i play trickster, i kinda just let it do it's own thing, is there anything i really have to manage in ST?
tepid trellis
nah not really, just gotta make sure fazed is up on your target when you consume coup
pliant topaz
not sure if DS bug is still in sims or not
it is
crystal rain
so with coup doing 5 additional cps, do i want to evisc on low cp to not waste the +5 cps?
spark tusk
nah not really, just gotta make sure fazed is up on your target when you consume...
I haven’t been playing enough but in all the times I’ve been playing I’ve basically never had a time where fazed wasn’t up when I was about to coup
I guess in M+ if your fazed target dies and you target swap
tepid trellis
so with coup doing 5 additional cps, do i want to evisc on low cp to not waste t...
just follow regular finisher rules
tribal blade
ok so me and my buddy just failed our +15 DB
and yoda came in to dps it on his frost dk
someone in his chat was saying "they have a sub rogue, sub is dogshit"
and after the 1st pull where i was on top of dps they were like "WTF SUB IS PUMPING"
tribal blade
we failed it because yoda pulled extra trash with his abilities 😦
the classic rank 1 player coming in to test stuff out
keen dome
Haha, rip
tulip token
from a key pushing friend of mine
That’s dope haha. The amount of comments I get when I run sub is hilarious. I run all 3 specs and am currently working on seeing how high I can push all of their io. Far from a top player but everyone just expects it to be dogshit when it’s not. I’m only running 12-13 range but I still get a kick out of their surprise when sub pumps.
Outlaw is going to be the one I work on last so it’s really really low. But it was my first main for 2-3 seasons and like I said I’m not a top player by any means. Just limit testing myself on all 3 for fun. I’m confident that I’ll at a minimum hit 2700 on all 3. Which personally I find cool even if it’s not that crazy or impressive.
vale pine
and after the 1st pull where i was on top of dps they were like "WTF SUB IS PUMP...
doing gods work
tulip token
Calling it now
People see sub do well
People play sub
Blizz nerfs it
Gg
vale pine
thats not the sub cycle
- people see sub do well
- people try sub
- do tank damage
- skill issued
mint plank
What’s considered good dps overall? In 10-12s
tulip token
I’d assume it’s dungeon and comp dependent. Pull size matters too. Lots of variables
vale pine
What’s considered good dps overall? In 10-12s
there is no exact number, if you competing or beating other dps in your key you are doing great
i know its not a satisfying answer, but just try to find parts you can do better
thats all that matters
mint plank
Trying to bench mark myself. Seem to be keeping up
tulip token
Personally I’m also a number chaser but at the end of the day, understanding why or why you aren’t doing dps is the real goal. The number goes up the further your understanding of your spec is
Other than that just have fun and watch it get bigger
tribal blade
What’s considered good dps overall? In 10-12s
i'm guessing average is between 1.35-1.5 mil
sub will naturally be lower in the lower keys because stuff doesn't live the full duration of your cds, and you can't spread rupture as much
tribal blade
- people see sub do well
- people try sub
- do tank damage
- skill issued
i think a lot of players will still try sub and not enjoy playing it
vale pine
i think people will stick to sin
tribal blade
in part because if you mess up sub's rotation the dps is horrendous
vale pine
simply because some things others mention don't hold true
tribal blade
i agree, sin is still overall better
vale pine
e.g. a common misconception is
lean roost
I switched from son to sub because sub is big fun with the cds and stuff
But I’m casual af
lean roost
So I don’t count
tribal blade
the good thing about sin is you can at least spread your bleeds at the start of a pull and you're doing a passive 2 mil dps
tribal blade
and then they have their bleed protection in sudden demise
which is really good in lower keys
i think the hardest part about playing sin in keys is the ST rotation
it feels awful
keen dome
i'm guessing average is between 1.35-1.5 mil
I'm a pretty medicore player and I sit around 1.2 - 1.4m, so I think your average of 1.35 - 1.5m is pretty spot on.
tribal blade
I'm a pretty medicore player and I sit around 1.2 - 1.4m, so I think your averag...
wooo!
keen dome
Varies by key, but def within that average range.
vale pine
also how the tank pulls
tribal blade
like the mists i broke 2 mil dps we had a boomy pulling through the maze walls in every room
so no small pulls the entire dungeon
keen dome
Yeah, bigger the pulls the betterer. Tank pulls still have such a big influence, even in smaller dungeons. I've had some DB's where the tank somehows find the strangest, smallest way to pull.
I need to start doing more mists 'cos the first boss is so much fun
fluid tusk
On raider.io there are outlaws and assas rogues over 3300 rating while sub are just abone 3k
What could explain that?
clever delta
like the mists i broke 2 mil dps we had a boomy pulling through the maze walls i...
are yu playing that first dance shit everywhere or you swap for like nado with dungeon with biugger pulls?
tribal blade
are yu playing that first dance shit everywhere or you swap for like nado with d...
i'm just playing TFD everywhere, i don't like using nado
it's less of an output thing, it's more of a feel thing
but also dungeons with the really big pulls i'm still playing sin mostly
hazy breach
What could explain that?
Nobody is playing sub because at the start of the season it was quite bad
It got way better in. 5 though
clever delta
whats considered sub playeble dungeons beside mist and dawn
hazy breach
City and siege
tribal blade
CoT i prefer playing sub 100%
uncut bloom
Yeah city is a great dungeon for sub
tribal blade
all the hard parts of the dungeon are bosses anyways
clever delta
cool
i got bored with assa both in keys and raid
its like that every time assa being played for more than month 😄
hazy breach
People swap to sub after second boss in nw too
clever delta
yeah i saw that
vale pine
People swap to sub after second boss in nw too
oh, interessting
hazy breach
sin is alright on 3rd boss, it's good
Sub is just better though
tribal blade
Sub is just better though
oh i agree, absolutely
fluid tusk
I guess sin is also good for the utility it brings
Being able to garrote multiple targets on pull
tribal blade
i wish sin didn't carry the first half of the dungeon so well
just iron wire alone in NW is big
i timed a 14 siege today with friends, and i was going to run it as sin w/o iron wire for more damage
tribal blade
and i thought "fuck it, i'll just run iron wire"
and thank god i did
because the tank fucked up pulling the banana area
accidently double pulled
and if i didn't have iron wire we 100% would ahve wiped
fluid tusk
Probably one of the strongest talent in the game
Especially when there are so many enemy casters in the dungeons this rotation
tribal blade
yes it's very good for NW, SV and GB
i find it annoying sin gets such crazy good utility in iron wire
yet aoe kidney was too much
tribal blade
there are aoe stuns in the game already
fluid tusk
Like smoke bomb increasing dodge chance for the party
tribal blade
but they could have nerfed the duration on secondary targets to like half or something
tribal blade
or i guess a bit more with 8 second kidney
fluid tusk
I agree
keen dome
give us a heroism
And a brez
Rogue ability to 'steal' a buff / rez / hero button from another class until you log out. See a Shaman? Steal their heroism for a session. The ultimate utility class.
timid reef
Hi guys, new to sub. The target we place frag on, its that our main target we wanna focus on. Or can i switch to other add that dosent have it but still get buffs from frag?
tribal blade
Hi guys, new to sub. The target we place frag on, its that our main target we wa...
it'll usually go on the target you're focusing, but honestly it doesn't matter which target you flag
so long as it'll live the entire ramp duration
so once you have flag on a target you're free to swap as much as you want
you won't lose anything
timid reef
Cool! Thx alot!
tribal blade
i kinda wish they would buff the lash damage from flag to be like what it was during SL
that would be cool prio damage
@tepid trellis just got a buddy from the anniversary event
sly shore
we do a lil siege weekly
wispy zephyr
but on last boss it's abyssmal
the downstairs adds feel like a mythic raid boss
tribal blade
the downstairs adds feel like a mythic raid boss
it's way too much
the entire last boss is just miserable in every way
wispy zephyr
i was having a life and death battle energy starved with the add and my enh friend was just like "i pressed tempest"
haven't tried sub yet on those last bosses
dreamy anchor
1. the full shadow dance entrance cp condition is a bit complex and convoluted. ...
Thank you so much! ❤️
half comet
glossy turtle
Would it be worth learning sub st for nw? 🙂
Like how long would it take to get the basics down?
sturdy moon
Hey Sub bro when should I press ST without dance?
vale pine
in mythic+ never
in raid, only when your big cooldowns come up soon and your dance charges are low
round latch
we do a lil siege weekly
havent seen spyglass on my rogue yet,seen it twice on my mage
round latch
scarlet heath
currently my issue with Sub is that it feels ass to play with just 100 energy (without the Vigor talent), I feel like I am constantly short on energy and juggling symbols is the pretty much the only remedy but it still feels so weird to play, does it get better at any point?
hazy breach
Outside of symbols theres almost no energy correct
But it also doesnt matter much, because you're doing absolutely zero damage anyway
vale pine
storm costs are quite rough since 10.2 too
which leads to the feeling of being even more starved
hazy breach
Its currently designed in a way where during cooldowns you have energy for every global and outside cds you struggle a lot for energy
Which i personally like because the contrast feels good to me, the cooldowns feel more impactful because of how slow it feels outside of it
But i can see other people not seeing it that way
scarlet heath
I suppose it just needs getting used to
hazy breach
Like ye you could have tea and get more energy, but getting some extra backstabs that do 150k each across a fight aint that impactful, even eviscerates outside cds are kinda weak
scarlet heath
yeah that's fair
and it's not an issue during cooldowns cuz you are just chaining finishers which refund energy on their own
plus symbols energy
I just panick a little bit when I shadowstrike and see half my energy just go byebye 
hazy breach
The only time it sometimes feels a bit bad is when you have the first dance without your cooldowns (ie flag/blades) up and you get unlucky with sht procs, then you sometimes miss out on the last global of that 12s long dance
spark tusk
After playing assa forever
moments of no energy are totally normal
or rather, moments of pooling
hazy breach
But again, thats fairly rare and you dont really have first dance up that often without cooldowns anyway
bleak wind
for me is not so much that you do no damage outside of dance but you also get no cdr
spark tusk
do you need it? idn what they're doing
you're here in this lovely chat what do you need bloodmallet for
alpine wraith
bloodmallet has an issue with sub because it ahs no talents
vernal drum
what you mean ? :/
but raidbot still working for us then ?
cuz bmallet use raidbot infos, right ?
hazy breach
Raidbots works
soft summit
++ a 10 dawn. Ret did 1.38 million dps average me as sub did 1.25 million dps.
Ret says at the end… “you should switch specs, sub rogue sucks”
keen dome
lmao
soft summit
As sub with almost 2500 rating I can’t get into any 10s. But am having a lot of success switching to assassination, applying to groups, getting in and then switching to sub
keen dome
Ye
I had one earlier today where someone got weird at me for being Sub. And then I sat 1.4m in a +8 NW, beating the guy who got weird at me by 500k DPS.
People care more about some mythical meta or ideal setup than just pushing their buttons
Just play da keeeys
vestal escarp
Just sayin
Everyone shout how iron wire is so broken
While sin has never been meta for keys before now
(start of amirdrassil and awakened are in the "now")
pliant topaz
turns out u can have sick broen utility but if you do no damage youre not meta
doesnt make your utility not broken
ppal s2 df was equally oppressive as it is now with off healing / utility. but bear go brrr
ppal had the same shit it has now beginning of tww
but now it do dam
crazy thought i know
vestal escarp
Crazy
pliant topaz
so your argument about iron ire not being oppresive is kinda a meme. it is very good
in fact good enough that u take it by giving up large amounts of damage
vestal escarp
Wdym, it is a meme
pliant topaz
LOL
vestal escarp
But it's valid
vestal escarp
Iron wire was never the dealbreaker
pliant topaz
but also no utility comes with a 7% dps cost
and u take it ayways
thats how absurdly broken it is
lucid jackal
How things usually go is that whenever a spec is good, their specific unique utility is "why they end up being op"
Back in BFA it was gouge and bte stun
vale pine
shuriken combo had a high trade off of aoe for funnel, scent gives it for free
lucid jackal
In sl it was "dance cheapshot" ( 
)
slate fable
man bte stun was kinda annoying sometimes though lol
pliant topaz
true! scent is litearlly a better version of shuriken combo
hollow snow
Honestly with a protpal alot are just dropping IW
keen dome
Shuirken Combo 😠
vale pine
but as arming pointed out
anything thats op
is always on top of numerical tuning
so then more niches and extra stuff anyone brings
pliant topaz
How things usually go is that whenever a spec is good, their specific unique uti...
but if your utilitys trade off is 7% overall dps. and everyon takes it anyways, its indication of how strong it is
vale pine
numerical tuning typical used to make up for design issues or deficites
e.g. subtlety having bad low target cleave
was offset by it having good aoe
in s1/s2 DF
this is diffrent when specs don't have deficits/problems like this
hollow snow
not everyone takes it. Its only mando in like SV, GB, Wake
vale pine
and i talked about it in the outlaw channel recently
modern wow
if you have a deficit thats common
you are more times than not fucked by it rather than getting something in exchange
it is why DF focused on removing some deficits
or well it did for some specs
the most noticable diffrence for TWW is the addition of nimble flurry
which allows subtlety to do competitive damage in cleave
which wasn't the case since
when was wod?
did subtlety do cleave damage in wod?
hmm
lets just assume 10+ years
random hare
vale pine
just to have a less one sided discussion on this
i think having clear niches/upsites to specs brings a net positive
hidden spade
Does anyone have a plater mod that will change the colour of a nameplate if the target has the fazed debuff?
hazy breach
How things usually go is that whenever a spec is good, their specific unique uti...
Just like how it was mass dispell that made priest OP. Not the fact that they did 20% more damage than any other spec
vale pine
i don't like the modern trend of just hoping to be the spec thats numerical better
upper narwhal
I think classes having different strengths and weaknesses would be a good thing, but most content is very similar in what's needed so some classes strengths never see any real value and their deficits really stand out
vale pine
on top of bringing the least trade offs and most niches
vale pine
I think classes having different strengths and weaknesses would be a good thing,...
it was how specs ended up designed in legion
e.g. subtlety was the agile spec
you had 2 charges of shadowstep, no fall damage and vanish-teleport
starting DF
sublety didn't even play 2x step for most of s1
strange chasm
I'm glad they removed shadowstep from outlaw
upper narwhal
yeah I get why they walked it back but it would be cool to see more varied encounters with different specs shining