subtlety

[sly shore]

can't health pot at full health

not sure if crimson vial affects the heal requirement

[wild hornet]

Cant you use feint to negate some of the dmg

[sly shore]

no it's a debuff

that just requires healing

that isn't a heal absorb

[wild hornet]

Yeah but when it ends up hitting you i meant for the dmg you receive

[sly shore]

na that's not a problem

I cloaked it when I could too

[wild hornet]

Dunno, my rogues love me

[woeful egret]

I usually communicate and cloak every other one, while they totem/revival etc

[wild hornet]

8s cleanse is a cool spell

[sly shore]

they didn't have totem specced

I said

[wild hornet]

Why

[sly shore]

"A shaman going into any key this week without poison cleanse specced is unhinged"

[wild hornet]

Resto without poison totem during that affix is troll

[sly shore]

and he said just cloak it or use iron stomach

[woeful egret]

lol

[sly shore]

cos I said I can't dispel it myself

[wild hornet]

Lowkey

Use tricks on him

[woeful egret]

on my ww monk I can get 3, and every other one 2. You have time to instantly dispel yourself and 1 other

[sly shore]

yup

it's not hard to deal with if you can deal with it

[wild hornet]

I always cleanse myself and a rogue/lock

If healer is pepe i bop a 3rd

And sac a 4th

[woeful egret]

I usually diffuse, then dispel tank, then wait to see who still has it when it comes off cd on my ww monk

[wild hornet]

Anyways, for sub in mplus does it make sense to spec over to trickster over dstalk

Due to nimble blade

[vale pine]

yes

trickster is the better choice

[ornate drum]

Is the Searing Needle, the timewarped BoE, worth the 300k?

[vale pine]

i would say no

[shell lance]

For raid DS right?

[vale pine]

trickster for both

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUQQOVERUQVEVUUQWhUBQEFVVUCAQ

raid build

i rly like this build

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUAQOVUREQVEVRUQWhUBQEFVVUCAQ

for mythic+

[shell lance]

Ok thanks

[woeful egret]

thats my m+ build lol

I don't even switch to shadow focus, feels like it kind of doesn't matter tbh

[woeful egret]

does the first dance feel like it gets value in most fast groups?

[lucid jackal]

Weapon master us fairly weak

[vale pine]

you usually get good value of it

ofc. if you speedrun very low keys

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUAQOVUREQVEVURQWhUBQEFVVUCAQ

probably just take the standard talents

[wild hornet]

Is it troll if i do play sub or outlaw instead of assa in mplus

[woeful egret]

not at all

I have done 8+ keys as sub

and I suck, so there is that!

I think it's most troll to play outlaw >.>

[keen dome]

I've done 10's at Sub and been top damage. It's absolutely fine for keys now, imo. Not super strong but pretty good. Play what you enjoy.

Absolutely amazing boss shredding though

[near rivet]

uh, not even close

[keen dome]

plenty of time

[woeful egret]

I'm actually in the process of just switching to playing sub only

I have a couple recrafts I gotta do etc

[near rivet]

kinda carried, ngl

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

Blasting, that's some stellar dam

[near rivet]

especially when i snapped that last boss add to tank

[frosty bridge]

that prot dps lol

[woeful egret]

what ilvl if you don't mind me asking?

[near rivet]

and had to wait for like 15 seconds until they kill it

[woeful egret]

my pleb ass is 620, just started doing keys for gilded

[keen dome]

Damn that's a big transmitter

Big dam for big rogue

[vestal escarp]

Sub has play rate/clear rate in low keys

Spec is saved

[near rivet]

best thing is that keyholder(warr) wanted to got for most meta party possible

but didnt checked out my spec

and we waited like 10 minutes till he gather party

[keen dome]

I had a 10 where the leader complained about me being sub. then when we finished it (not timed, sadly) I was top damage by 500k dps lol

[near rivet]

i had no idea what otherws were doing, but i even topped dps on that first lust pull

by doing ST rotation on gatekepper

[woeful egret]

I think sub can perform quite well. in the correct hands you can be standout for sure

[vestal escarp]

On nw first pull shb bp goes quite hard

[round latch]

that tank was blasting af

same dmg as the fury war

[near rivet]

keyholder privilege

[round latch]

hook me up yo

bro is blasting

[tropic quiver]

Any sub rogue pvpers know what I should be running to duo with a mage? I see a lot of rogues running tea instead of double vanish and I'm unsure if that's just cuz they run with healers, or if rogues really just want one vanish now

[round latch]

#pvp but it goes down to preference and depends what u are facing.Some prefer the 2nd vanish charge but im sure the vast majority runs tea for jsut dmg

[unreal lichen]

the tea build is for cheese one shot

[round latch]

yeah pretty much

2nd vanish charge is more like if u wanna trade cds with healers or other dps,like ferals and mostly in 3s

(assuming u are playing DB and not anything weird btw)

[tropic quiver]

sorry dont use this disc much so didnt really notice the pvp section lol thanks

[round latch]

u are welcome friend no worries 🙂

[idle adder]

hii is black powder worth using again on m+?

have not played sub long time now getting back

[molten citrus]

on like 12+ targets

[vale pine]

for trickster, on high target counts, for deathstalker with 2+

[thick temple]

On like more than 10+ targets if the thing you're targeting isn't a boss or something too

[idle adder]

trickster still bis?

m+ i mean

[thick temple]

Found myself not using BP if it's boss + 10 adds or something idk losing damage

[cedar rock]

sorry if super noob question but can someone explain how tricks of the trade works? so i just put it on my tank and ill redirect all my aggro anto him for 1 hour? or do i have to keep reapplying? cause i remember playing in df s1 and 2 and it wasnt like that

[thick temple]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[thick field]

Is the reason assa is so much more represented/"better" in M+ because of damage or utility, or something else?

[thick temple]

@idle adder

Trickster seems to still have the edge over ds in m+

[idle adder]

oh thats nice ive played so much DS assa this season fun to play other hero talent

[spark tusk]

Trickster has a talent which makes tricks last an hour

with that, you only have to apply at the start of a dungeon/raid

per hour

If you don't have trickster, then you have to reapply it

and yes, it redirects your agro caused to the tank

[cedar rock]

ohjhhhh

[spark tusk]

or the person you apply it to

[cedar rock]

i thought i was tripping like was tricks always like this? was i always pressing it every 30 seconds back in the day

ok ok thanks

remember guys, read your talents

[thick temple]

How do I know if it's active @spark tusk ? I don't see it go on CD or anything. I thought I had to be in combat then select my tank then select tott

[spark tusk]

You'll have an hour long tricks buff

if you have that, you're redirecting threat

[thick temple]

Ok I'll recheck next time

Does that mean I can pull fat packs in m+

[spark tusk]

trickster also has the benefit of not being ass to play, flurry is great

[oblique grove]

triickster sub rogue my beloved

[spark tusk]

very strong

[spark tusk]

Mobs have a tendency to smack you even after you've cast once, have to be careful

like

face pulling doesn't agro to tank

so if you don't hti a mob with an ability

it'll still turn and smack you

if you're near

[idle adder]

ye had fun lately doing bit lower keys than on assa might swap it to sub when i get better

[cedar rock]

nimble flurry is so free not like our ss and bp rotation was hard to begin with but it makes dungeon dpsing more chill lol

[wild hornet]

for ST or st+cleave would deathstalker work better than trickster or vice versa

[novel plaza]

If we symbols during pre pull does it reset on pull?

[near rivet]

no

[novel plaza]

Ok ok I was just confused about this

[twilit phoenix]

when are we supposed to trigger the transmitter buff?

right before the first sec tech in opener?

[vale pine]

you trigger it with dance

but can use transmitter before

you have enough time to trigger it

so e.g. i personally macro it to flagellation

[twilit phoenix]

got it, I've been casting it with flag

alright sick, ty king

[quartz hare]

is there some dmg that gets excluded from the log when u compare to detauls on bloodboun?

[pliant topaz]

only things i can think of are aug contributions / maybe evoker bombers / maybe sectech log bug

[alpine wraith]

it is the classic diff realm things

need 1 logger from each realm

[quartz hare]

okay

[wild hornet]

during sblades, should I reapply sdance+symbols when they run out during blades cd

[bleak wind]

so, not really sure what I did and how it happened, but I managed to get first dance buff to stay while not being specced into it, if someone wanna figure out why that happened

[hazy breach]

[vale pine]

[bleak wind]

I got summoned into raid and I noticed it, trying to replicate it but didn't work

[vale pine]

maybe you need to enter a instance just the moment you get the buff applied

[wind canopy]

Yeah, you want to get two dances and SoDs to cover as much of your CD window as you can

[bleak wind]

I did swap before I got summoned, can' remember if it was just before though

[vale pine]

maybe if you switch just as it procs

so you trigger a race condition

[bleak wind]

maybe, I will experiment some more after raid

[spark tusk]

wait i have an idea

I should watch to detect when I cast a finisher with symbols up

and if my stacks are 7 or more

and if so, just force instruct my combo points aura to show full combo points even if not yet full because of replicating bug

that should work.. I think

I've just been getting tilted by it lately

so I don't queue a shadwostrike accidentally before realizing

[wide sonnet]

I havnt seen any sub rogues in keys. How are you guys feeling in them?

[hazy breach]

Good

Definitely underrated

[wide sonnet]

What's your overall

Outlaw is 1-2mil. Sin is same or better.

[vestal escarp]

Erm bro the range 1-2M is a bit wide

Goes from weak tank to strong dps

[woeful egret]

What I've been doing is using dance/sod after sod expires. This gives me sectech pretty much lined up with every dance, is that correct or should I just send it during cds?

[alpine wraith]

you wont be able to have it every time

[woeful egret]

I"m talking opener

you run out of dance charges before SOD eventually

I could be wrong though, I'm dumb rogue

[sick jackal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

its super annoying if it happens

[spark tusk]

I just annoying because I can look at my lit up sht icon, but I can’t always know or remember if it was glowing green before or after I cast the finisher

That’s why I want to have a validation, or maybe just make it glow giga strong when the last finisher will refund so I should be spell queuing in case replicating is delaying it

I’ll make it and try it out, adding it as an override to combo points would be finicky but updating the glow on a sht tracker would be pretty easy.

[pliant topaz]

I just look at my sht stacks if theyre at 5, I dont q a strike

[spark tusk]

But what if you don’t proc

Then you’re sitting there delaying your next strike

Maybe just a skill issue on my part

But I’m still going to make it

[uncut bloom]

Very fun to play and good damage.

[strange nebula]

Harder to play then sin?

[thick field]

is assa actually that far ahead to not see any sub rogues in keys?

[strange nebula]

Id guess easier to play

[vale pine]

sub has more moving parts, yes

[vale pine]

it does incredibly well in aoe, hard to beat in general

[lilac stag]

It’s locked meta status. That won’t change unless there’s a nerf or more of a reason to push as sub

People like seeing details. Assa good at that while being shit at boss dmg. Sub is good at popping off decently well on trash and slamming bosses.

[crisp cradle]

iron wire is another reason why assa good

[lilac stag]

copy paste rio

[strange nebula]

How hard gearwise to swap sin to sub?

[thick field]

hm okay gotcha. yeah i'm enjoying sub a lot so far, surprised that i have yet to even see another sub rogue in game

[lilac stag]

You can afk as assa mentally

which apparently is good

[strange nebula]

Low effort rotation

[thick field]

i feel like sub is pretty chill too outside of cds. you have to focus for like 5 globals to make sure you hit the opener/burst right but outside of that its pretty straightforward

[vale pine]

sub wants transmitter

and a lot of mastery/vers

[lilac stag]

It’s chill out of cds since nothing effectively does anything but lower cdr

[thick field]

even in cds its just sectech or evisc and then build up to it, its jsut the first couple flag->finisher->cds->sectech->symbols that you have to focus

then its just build spend build spend build spend

[uncut bloom]

Coming from sin, hardest thing for me was just getting used to not blowing a dance charge late into a pack and not having anything for the next one

[lilac stag]

You’ve got 5 CDs, including 2 90 seconds with variable timings. It’s not intuitive for most wow players. Very little comes close to playing like that as dps

[thick field]

yeah i guess thats true. i will admit i played this spec for years and just came back, and i am still a bit struggling on when i can send a shadow dance to make sure i still have 2 stacks up for flag

[vivid cobalt]

I’m pretty sure sub is straight up better than assa in cot

that’s probably it tho

[vale pine]

the diffrence is not that big

even if sub is better

re-learning specs with potential recrafts, gear changes etc

seem like a difficult thing to sell

(it means, subtlety would need to be noticably better for anyone to consider switching)

[alpine pollen]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[hazy breach]

Dawn and mist are fine too

[sinful sluice]

Tbh grim batol feels good as well

[lilac stag]

NW feels better overall

[hazy breach]

Second half ye but sin is really good in the first half with all the funnel

[shell lance]

The trinket sikran’s endless arsenal is worse for sub?

[hazy breach]

Its fine

[shell lance]

Ok thanks

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stray plank]

would it be worth playing some sub at all in my outlaw gear?

or is no mast a big deal

[topaz raptor]

it is probably completely fine

you could probably sim different sets of gear to see what the difference would be, but it shouldn't prevent you from playing the spec

probably depends what knd of content you're up against, i can't imagine stat weights will make a difference of more than 10% unless you have like 20k haste

[stray plank]

i think i'm like 5k haste or something

[steel zinc]

It feels for trickster m+ crit is a good stat

pure feelcraft though

[hazy breach]

Its fine

But for deathstalker crit is typically worse than haste

[stray plank]

weirdge

[hazy breach]

Not really

[stray plank]

oh wait can i not sim sub rn?

[hazy breach]

Rotten, cold blood and darkest night

All make you guaranteed crit

[hazy breach]

Why would you not be able to

[stray plank]

oh nvm i think its cuz i have a fist weapon on

[hazy breach]

You need 2 daggers to play sub ye

[ornate current]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stray plank]

do we do that backstab in dance for dense macabre stack thing still?

[hazy breach]

No

[stray plank]

i can remove backstab from my stealth bar then?

that's nice

12 buttons for dps rotation is peak

[shell lance]

Well I have dropped sikren’s endless arsenal the dagger kukri one piece of set and the belt with versa mastery all veteran tomorrow i try to sim

[steel horizon]

why tf are people not running RS and imp. shuriken storm on mythic broodtwister?

[plush violet]

is there a reason alot of sub rogues running Trickster on princess ? i thought Ds is the go to for pure st

i know they are close but isn't ds slightly better or did i misunderstood something

[sullen hare]

#subtlety message

Among other reasons I'm sure, this is a pretty big one

[plush violet]

oh

thanks

[bleak wind]

darkest night bug still exists, which means deathstalker is about as equal as trickster, and trickster just plays better as well

[hazy breach]

It really feels like ass to play deathstalker in comparison

[plush violet]

makes sense ty guys

[tribal blade]

RS is only useful in M+ where mobs live long enough for spreading

or on bosses where there's 2+ targets that are gonna live a while

[hazy breach]

As for why no imp shuriken, idk probably lazy

[tribal blade]

it's like how sin doesn't play half their aoe talents on her too

yeah they probably legit forgot to swap to imp storm

you don't really need to bring a fuckton of aoe damage for ovinax as rogue, there are other specs that are far better

[steel horizon]

huh? since 11.05 have we not been running RS on our ST builds as well?

or did something change

[spark tusk]

It's not working I'm finding that even with like 5-6 stacks if you cast a finisher you can still get refunds like the game predicts what your stacks will be and rushes to refund ahead of you proccing up to 7 this is so cooked. Going to have to play with it in real content where the replicating bug happens mroe to see if it helps

[tribal blade]

it's not mandatory

you can if you want to

if you play with RS you play with the bug

[steel horizon]

that bug do be annoying af. aight guess i've been outta the loop a bit

[spark tusk]

yeah

[steel horizon]

its just like the only decent alternatives are imp. ShT and shadow focus which i feel like are even less impactful than RS since we dont really have energy issues in dance anyway

[rocky wolf]

bug?

[spark tusk]

When you take replicating, it makes the refund from Shadowcraft finishers have like an extra 1 sec delay on it, so it's difficult and annoying to tell when you get a refund

like, genuinely grating and collides with resource generation during tight cooldown windows when one extra GCd or set of CP matters

[rocky wolf]

oh i thought i was just bad 😛

[spark tusk]

It seems for me at least to correlate with laggier environments, like on target dummies in town it isn't that bad but in a raid it consistently happens

[steel horizon]

yea its infuriating. i feel like its a feature at this point though

[bleak wind]

almost as annoying as the coup charge

[tribal blade]

it's way worse than the coup charge i think

because at least the coup charge you have absolute control over

[bleak wind]

kinda, but I find myself proccing it during cooldowns when I am spamming strike into evis and it just procs and dashes me into a web blade

[tribal blade]

it shouldn't charge you if you're in melee

but yeah if you mess up and press it while trying to avoid stuff it's a big feels bad

[bleak wind]

you are just dodging around the blades, get out of melee for a split second and you are done

especially when the tanks are also dodging

[tribal blade]

yeah i feel that

[bleak wind]

and move the boss slightly

[tribal blade]

it's kind of a pointless thing to attach to coup

sounds cool on paper, but in reality it has 0 use

[bleak wind]

imagine knowing that people don't like it with things like the monk dashes and giving them the option to turn it off and then still make it

[pliant topaz]

well warriors had it on their venthyr thing

and they fucking hated it

[bleak wind]

^

[pliant topaz]

then ww got it on their tiger palm

then they fuckign hated it

[bleak wind]

exactly my point

[pliant topaz]

so now that they were sure its hate by all

they gave it as an expansion feeture to rogues

[tribal blade]

haha yeah it's very confusing

i guess blizz likes to double down on their ideas

[pliant topaz]

funny thing is ww got a choice node so they can opt out of the dash if they wanted

thats how obvious it was that this thing is gonna suck

[bleak wind]

I have a feeling it is something to do with death from above, probably used it as a base given the gcd lock it had

[fair stump]

Speaking of coup, does anyone know what's the name for coup's animation?

[pliant topaz]

maybe they wanted a similar feeling to dfa idk

since dfa follow people right nwo in pvp

[fair stump]

It looks nice

[pliant topaz]

??

it has no animation

unless you do it from ranged

[fair stump]

That's the animation I'm talking about...

[pliant topaz]

thats called warrior charge

then

[fair stump]

Not the charge, the attack animation

it is different from a normal finisher animation

[pliant topaz]

thats warrior rampaage

[fair stump]

It slashes like 5 different times

[pliant topaz]

its furry rampage

[fair stump]

Great, thanks for that

[bleak wind]

oh and another thing that bothers me is that they made the unseen blade reset private aura - or it just procs randomly on a blackstab / shadowstrike who knows how its implemented

like is there any other player ability that is a private aura

[hazy breach]

Fazed is completely unnecessary to begin with as well

[pliant topaz]

^

theres virtually 0 reason to have fazed outside of fucking the player

[fair stump]

As in, its useless or the damage is unnoticeable?

[hazy breach]

The only thing it does is make it so you can sometimes accidently not get the main benefit from your capstone if youre not paying attention

[hazy breach]

It serves no purpose

Its 5% dmg ye, but it doesnt have 100% uptime

And you need fazed up when you coup

[pliant topaz]

afaik theres no other ones that are a private aura reset. but i think they made it like this to stop outlaw and to an extent sub from over optimizing it. since htey dont want to make specs more complicated

[hazy breach]

Otherwise you lose the main benefit of coup, which is the 5 flawless stacks

[pliant topaz]

but since theyre not very good at tuning, sub started pressing black powder in st before the .5 changes

[fair stump]

I should read the talents, I had no idea this was a thing

[pliant topaz]

thats the only interaction fazed has with our kit

outisde of the 5% / parry thing which just coulda been baked into nimble

[fair stump]

What's a good number of flawless stacks that one should usually have in an opener rotation?

[pliant topaz]

fazed on its own entirely exists to fuck the player when they want to use coup

[pliant topaz]

its not in your control. its rng

[hazy breach]

Nimble could just be passive on all the time and fazed could be removed and we would have 2 less things to track

[bleak wind]

I don't even think you could optimize it like what are you gonna do, start pressing storm over backstab

[hazy breach]

Without any gameplay difference

Besides not needing to backstab once in a while in aoe, which feels bad anyway

[fair stump]

I'm wondering if they'd have complains from sub players saying that the spec feels to similar to outlaw if that were to be the case

[pliant topaz]

maybe. but also maybe outlaw further delaying vanishes for it etc.

[bleak wind]

outlaw can't press anything else though

[hazy breach]

That would surprise me, but then again the hatred #assassination feels for the tea autoproc change that is completely irrelevant also surprised me so

[fair stump]

We did have those comments when BP got buffed, with people saying they hate trickster gameplay

[bleak wind]

doubt you will start pistol shotting

also kinda the same effect to have it procced but choose to black powder instead

[hazy breach]

@pliant topaz 4% wipe today

[pliant topaz]

you guys are having an insanely fast prog wtf.

u guys are giga gamers or what

[hazy breach]

So close to getting like wr 70, but now were gonna have to come back on wednesday and its like 85-90 or whatever

[pliant topaz]

you guys are lowkey killing it ngl

[fair stump]

is that M queen?

[pliant topaz]

im surprised u didnt extend another raid hour or so to get top 70

[hazy breach]

We did like 30 mins

But then we had 2 ass pulls

And well

[hazy breach]

Yes

[tribal blade]

does anyone have a good focus target casting WA

[hazy breach]

Sub is blasting boss dps though

[tribal blade]

i keep trying to download different ones but they all seem to not work for me

unless i'm just a monkey

[hazy breach]

Idk i just have my unitframe cast bar for it

[fair stump]

I'm glad I can play sub and not grief myself for it

[hazy breach]

In the middle of my screen

[tribal blade]

oh intersting

[hazy breach]

Another absolute banger thing about sub on queen

Is that im doing literally less dps than the tanks to the shield

[pliant topaz]

LMFAO thats funny ngl but hey thats what makes sub dope

lemme burst to infinity

then im down to compete with my hpal on the dps meter outside of dance

[hazy breach]

Ye and then im doing 20% of the damage on the first platform

Peak sub fantasy actually

[pliant topaz]

honestly thats perfect

I kinda said it before but like this version of sub is legit my favourite sub

theres a few things i would change but outside of that im pretty happy

[fair stump]

it feels good to press evisc/sectec

[hazy breach]

It do be fun

[fair stump]

I hated having to press BP

[short radish]

no bring back 9.1 abberus sub where we had the flattest damage profile known to man

[hazy breach]

Idm BP but sectech feeling satsifying to press is probably the main thing

Supercharger just giga buffed sectech

[short radish]

yeah that part is sick

i do miss bp

[fair stump]

I still haven't been able to reach assa's envenoms values though

[hazy breach]

Well ye its unfortunately split into 3 different hits

But a maxed out sectech does more than double a maxed out envenom

[fair stump]

Wait, is there a way to condense that into the details?

[hazy breach]

No

[fair stump]

damn it

I'll never find out what's the max sectec I can deal

[pliant topaz]

u can look at the logs but yea thats about it

or sum it up manually kekw

[fair stump]

not that dedicated lol

[hazy breach]

Big bonk

[pliant topaz]

15M stonks

almost as much as a lighning bolt pog

[short radish]

[fair stump]

uh

can you see that on warcraft logs?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[fair stump]

there's so much shit I haven't seen about that page

[hazy breach]

Damage > press sectech > press events in the top right corner

[pliant topaz]

eleem if u could fix anything about sub what would it be

[hazy breach]

But im a filthy overgeared rat, and also orc, so my crits are sometimes very large

Probably what i mentioned above for trickster by making nimble passive and removing fazed

[pliant topaz]

soon to be maghar orc u mean?

[hazy breach]

As well as make nado less cringe

[hazy breach]

True

[fair stump]

is it normal for evisc to hit harder than coup?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt, coup is just split into 6 hits

Instead of eviscerates 2

[fair stump]

oh

[pliant topaz]

nah i would fully remove nado. replace it with a version of the sl tier everyone hated or something. like a 30 sec cd that just strikes all targets around you and converts the extra cps into anticipation

then remove VT and put that shit there so we play it in aoe and st

kekw

[hazy breach]

Ye theres tons of ways to go about it, but just not having nado would be neat

Even though playing your ST tree is aoe is great for boss dps

It also feels kinda silly

[fair stump]

That button also feels terrible to press

[hazy breach]

And would be nice to have more than 1 decent aoe talent (aka tfd)

[pliant topaz]

i kinda iked my idea for mos

[jaunty heath]

is gloomblade the pick for rashanan?

[pliant topaz]

when youre out of combt your sod and dance recharge faster

thats a turbo giga dungeon pog idk

u get to burn through everything ebtween packs then run around

[hazy breach]

No

[pliant topaz]

its never the pick for anything

[jaunty heath]

does being to the side count as behind?

[hazy breach]

Backstabs damage is completely negligible

You do not need to worry about being behind the boss

[jaunty heath]

ok

[bleak wind]

cries in find weakness

[hazy breach]

That shit works from the front as well, dw

[bleak wind]

ye I was about to say I am proccing it from the front

[jaunty heath]

what about shuriken tornado on brood?

[half comet]

@hazy breach did u play sin on court

[pliant topaz]

u could play it if u wanna play ds and spam bp to turbo pad. but pretty sure bp still does less damage than trickster ethical

[grave abyss]

probably not a helpful answer, but assassination is the pick for rashanan

[jaunty heath]

ok

[hazy breach]

A. No i played sub but we killed it before .5
B. Our logs are not privated so you can look up what i played
C. If you lookup our court kill youll see that i was dead for the second half of the fight so it didnt really matter what spec i played

[pliant topaz]

nice try new scana warrior

[half comet]

LOL

damn its deep

[hazy breach]

I think you could play either right now

[half comet]

ya im playing sin and want to ask someone what cd timings they did im seeing so many kinds

and if mandate is actually good or not

instead of passive

swear everyone is doing it diff

[pliant topaz]

probably doesnt matter as much then! ez

[wind canopy]

Wait, found the better one:

[half comet]

that is true but armin..

the number

can be grey green blue purple orange pink golden

[hazy breach]

Even better

The duality of man

[wind canopy]

Love you

[grave abyss]

perfect

buff sub

[pliant topaz]

i have one of those myself one sec

[ebon tiger]

I got a 100 as well but my guild knows I'm just competing against 10 other dudes who want to be ninjas

[lucid jackal]

Its so nice being a bystander

[twilit phoenix]

do we send the first spender after flag within the first dance?

or before the first dance

[fair stump]

its usually flag -> rupture/evisc -> cds -> sectec

[twilit phoenix]

got it, ty king

[lilac stag]

The joys of 1000 some odd parses.

[tribal blade]

if i link 100s on LFR logs

does that count

[lilac stag]

yes

Mists is cozy

[jaunty umbra]

cool breakdown

[twilit phoenix]

the transmitter mob just spawned twice back to back

[pliant topaz]

It’s just no one plays the spec. The 87 was a rank 2. The 76 was a rank 2 at that time also. Legit dead

[lilac stag]

yeah we back to post dfa parsing

[warm aspen]

honestly a badge of honor

esp now that the spec is actually playable

[lilac stag]

Playable is teetering on a fine thread.

[warm aspen]

i feel like we're middle of the pack in keys now

no?

and that's good enough for me lol, don't gotta be sin/shaman/fdk level

[lilac stag]

rs bug is impacting gameplay.

Deathstalker is completly hosed.

So many dead or useless talents.

[warm aspen]

and its not even an ego thing lol, just afraid of nerfs...

[lilac stag]

tuning is whatever. Mechanically the spec is still broken

There’s 1 talent setup that mostly is manageable in higher end content

[warm aspen]

that part's too true lmao

[lilac stag]

They can do better, but for now it’s serviceable. Have to wait and see how it changes with s2 tier and trinkets

[warm aspen]

i rly feel like they cooked up one SINGULAR setup

that feels like a well oiled machine

and then just threw darts to randomly fill in everything else with worthless garbage

[lilac stag]

idk if they cooked it or if we just figured out a way to make an unintuitive spec work.

Feels more like a happy accident at this point.

[warm aspen]

idk, the cdr on sectech and the impact of 3 symbols stack in keys

feels like something that's just impossible to grasp on paper

like u gotta playtest to feel how good that shit is

[lilac stag]

Do you?

[warm aspen]

at least i thought 3 stacks symbols wasn't shit until the patch actually hit lmao

went from to in like 3 keys

that night

what was the consensus in here b4 the patch landed lol

was i the only one kinda feeling despairge?

[lilac stag]

Untill a few people did serious dives into how symbols would interact no one was thrilled with sod charges.

Keep in mind from a design aspect this entire playable version of sub is unintuitive for majority of the player base.

I’m enjoying it, but I don’t think this version was an actual design goal. Just more well let’s add this here and cross our fingers. Deathstalker is abysmal which should not be the case with the talents.

and it just highlights how bad the design overall is of the spec.

[native zodiac]

i personally think sub is the most fun since a long while aswell

[lilac stag]

dfa was also a happy accident.

and that’s ok

Just as this is

[native zodiac]

queen died yesterday so im kinda hyped to reclear on it

i think the only thing that would make sub a bit better now is if they get an idea on how to go away from cdr

i personally do not enjoy the combo point cdr but oh well

[warm aspen]

yeah deathstalker def feesl like the part of the "just threw darts to randomly fill in everything else with worthless garbage" process lol

sucks too, it feels much more like sub rogues thematically

but ngl idk how they'd touch DS without making massive overhauls to sin

[short radish]

meanwhile assi rogues have like 10 viable specs in m+

[lilac stag]

It’s almost like effort is put into one spec more than the other

[short radish]

[warm aspen]

would it be blasphemy to say trickster sub feels better than any build of current sin lol

[lilac stag]

I mean you’re in the sub channel

and assa plays fine. It’s low skill entry. Doesn’t play like the way a dot spec should, but it can do literally everything.

[warm aspen]

idk restealth is just so stressful for keys lol

[short radish]

then dont stress about it

[lilac stag]

^

[warm aspen]

yeah i mean that's why im ride or die with sub

[short radish]

argueably sub with TFD

you should stress more

[lilac stag]

getting TFD back probably more impactful for restealth than anything for assa

[warm aspen]

what are we giving up to spec tfd lol

[short radish]

shuri nado

[warm aspen]

that makes no sense

if u give up nado, don't put the point into veiltouched

how do u access flag

[short radish]

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/deathstalker/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUQQOVERURVEVBUQWhUBQEFVVUCAA

no WM

[native zodiac]

honestly

i agree

i think assa was more fun with echoing

sub is way more fun with supercharger

[short radish]

yeah i liked ER on assi

[warm aspen]

...can't help but question dropping wm lol

[short radish]

made chaining envenoms easier

[native zodiac]

yup

[short radish]

its fine in m+

[warm aspen]

for trash packs right

[native zodiac]

ripping a 4.5m sectech into adds also just hits different

[short radish]

you dont notice it missing

15% is so low whenever it procs, it's a happy accident

[fair stump]

Is GB a sub angle or an assa angle?

[lilac stag]

doesn’t matter

Speed shroud good

[pliant topaz]

Yeah having charges but no cdr could be very cool. That’s the main thing I hope for too

That and deleting tornado and getting like 2 interesting talents.

[native zodiac]

ye, i always wondered how it would be if they made dance a lower cd and secret technique only a button you can press in symbols or dance and then remove of cd of it in a way you can only use it when you press either of them kinda

[short radish]

yes

remove CDR

CDR is cringe

[golden totem]

In the current spec design it would mean we have close to no decision making and we would just align and send without second thought. I like planning charges even tho it's not that deep, it's a fine replacement from dust but if it's gone, back to brainless sub send on cd and blast, which I don't like

[native zodiac]

ye but

do you actually ever press st without dance or symbols

you dont

sure removing cdr would make the spec more stream lined

but lets be real everyone does the same amount of dance charges/symbols between cds anyways already

it would just eliminate the need of getting the uptime for cdr which can be cringe at times imo

[golden totem]

Oh I get the cdr removing part

Spec would kinda feel empty rn tho imo

[native zodiac]

hm yeah maybe

hard to say

[lilac stag]

Right now you’re actively playing around the cdr of Sectech. Esp in keys

How are you loading up Sectech 2/flag yadda yadda

cdr

I don’t enjoy the cdr, but current version that’s all that’s making it interesting.

[pliant topaz]

Not really true. You’re not playing around dance right now but rather sectech and sod. Decision making would be similar here.

[golden totem]

It adds the layer "I will have my 2 charges of dance by then, I can dance now". Not that deep as I said, and kinda similar every fight but it's still something to think while pressing buttons.

[pliant topaz]

Idk , that’s not an interesting decision to make imo. I either have it or u don’t. Not really interesting. There are far more interesting choices u can make with 2 dances of fixed cds

[golden totem]

I don't want sub to just be pressing buttons, I like the planning part of the spec and rn it's already kinda weak

[pliant topaz]

Idk, the dance part isn’t really the planning or any meaningful decision making. It’s a very binary and bland process. U either do or u dont

There’s other interesting things u could do

[lilac stag]

Yeah like have 2 disjointed 90 second cds

[pliant topaz]

Like right now one reason 3 sods are so good are because of the cdr it gives u, removing them makes the spec a bit weird for sure so it would require further fixing

I don’t think it’s something they care enough to do regardless

[lilac stag]

If they cared to fix it, RS would have been addressed

we’re jus lt so far down the list it’s whatever

I’m genuinely curious to see what s2 brings good and bad for sub

[golden totem]

With the changes we had this patch I would not be surprised to see some patch without any rogue line

The usual

[lilac stag]

I mean more like trinkets or are we stuck using transmitter. Tier bonuses, current is very good and how much gameplay impact there is.

I doubt we see anything meaningful done to the spec. idk

[golden totem]

With current tier set design philosophy, the expectations are low

[lilac stag]

well first iteration was supposed to be low impact to highlight the awesomeness of hero talents.

a few outliers, including sub, got nice ones

[golden totem]

Didn't they say at some point in df that they don't want tier set to be interfering with gameplay very much?

But yeah we got a decent one

[lilac stag]

I can’t keep strait half the shit they say, I also don’t hold any stock in what they say.

[golden totem]

Some hero talent change would be cool. But I feel like fatebound would be rogue prio

[golden totem]

True

[lilac stag]

Everything about their dev process just seems off. The bugs are so bad across the board.

[vale pine]

keep in mind that communities, like ours

will have a bias towards that

e.g. subtlety had many bad bugs carried on multiple times for longer durations

[lilac stag]

M+ bugs, Delves bugs, raid bugs. Class / specs. Bugs. World phasing. Bugs.

[vale pine]

in combination with a low amount of attention to details or long cycles of bad tuning

[lilac stag]

It’s not isolated to a single community. It’s game wide.

[vale pine]

so e.g. if you played subtlety, you got a way worse experience than on other classes due to that

[lucid jackal]

Idk why there is never any credit given to the developers

People say the same thing in outlaw and I don't really understand why

[vale pine]

and whatever class you play will highly impact your perceived world

[lucid jackal]

"Oh this change they made just is accidentally really good"

[vale pine]

supercharger is just a numerical extremely good talent, and the symbols change happens to add healthy dynamic.

[lilac stag]

the spect isn’t intuitive and the number of iterations to find a needle in a haystack to make the build work highly leans towards a happy accident versus planned outcome.

[vale pine]

also i think

[lucid jackal]

Sub feels very intuitive to me rn idk

[vale pine]

People say the same thing in outlaw and I don't really understand why
this is straight up not true

[lucid jackal]

what isn't true?

[vale pine]

if you listened to any of the regular posters/greens

[lilac stag]

if more iterations were made to work the intuitiveness of the spec sure. It’s not intuitive to your average wow player

[vale pine]

they will say that 11.0.5 was a improvement

[lucid jackal]

Thats not what I said

[tough knot]

Oh mom and dad are fighting 🍿

[vale pine]

sry i mean

Idk why there is never any credit given to the developers

[steel zinc]

It is

[vale pine]

quoted the wrong

[lucid jackal]

What I'm saying specifically is people saying the changes "accidentally made the spec better" not "intentionally made the spec better"

[lilac stag]

and happy accidents aren’t a bad thing

[vale pine]

the change that made the spec better was supercharger

even then, we don't even know how well the change works in 11.1

because there are currently a lot of favorable things for subtlety that won't carry over to season 2

[lilac stag]

deathstalker is krangled by sub talents

so no I don’t think the design goal was to make 1 usable talent tree

[steel zinc]

That be?

[lilac stag]

and 1 usable setup

[alpine wraith]

also we have problems after first set of cds

[vale pine]

we currently have:

• a insanely strong 90 sec trinket
• a tier set which synergizes extremely well with supercharger

[lucid jackal]

I mean the other talents kinda suck, I think supercharger is gonna be locked in

[alpine wraith]

although it is cool you can kinda move things around a bit more

[vale pine]

supercharger is a op talent

[lilac stag]

we got a stop gap that’s fun to play for a minority of rogue players.

[vale pine]

and again it is the only reason 11.0.5 is positive

remove the talent and its a bad change

[lilac stag]

which again why I’m really curious what we see both for rogue in spec, tier and trinkets.

11.1

[vale pine]

i don't think it is accidental to make supercharger good for subtlety

so it is very much intentional in what you say

[lilac stag]

No, but I think the sectech / tier / coup change was the happy accident.

[vale pine]

also you exraggerating on one persons opinion

just because scath made the point does not mean thats the general consensus

[lilac stag]

I’ll enjoy it while it’s here. I’ll cry every time RS bugs

[vale pine]

yes, its almost a year old bug

thats annoying asf

but again, subtlety is known to have a slow pacing in fixing bugs

[vale pine]

cold blood is rly good but due to the removal of dust noticably less important

there was zero care taken to make subterfuge good on subtlety even tho there was time spend to do so for assassiantion

toward 11.0.5, one critisism i had and still stand behind is

the change, including supercharger was non obvious

this means, you couldn't intuitively say the changes are good, but needed to rly work out details to know

and many individual changes ended up negative if looked at in isoluation

[golden totem]

Tbf, every classes have a lot of bugs rn

[lilac stag]

I still love that we have danse which logically says we should be holding our biggest finisher to the end, which is the exact opposite of what we end up doing.

[lilac stag]

I was being very broad and general. It’s everyone and everything.

[vale pine]

this is in contrast to many of the class changes/rework in general

most changes are overall net positives, a layman can easy identify as such

the reason 11.0.5 is fun is also because you end up in a net buff

the spec got buffed 5%+ if you include bugfixes

[lilac stag]

if they dropped clones and made it a single big hit, I’d be curious to see if that would garner any more interest from players that like seeing big numbers who otherwise wouldn’t look at the spec.

[vale pine]

what i am saying is, i think a overall positive tone is giving credit to the devs (why wouldn't it?)

[golden totem]

That would be cool

[vale pine]

if you don't like a critical discussion and think that's taking away from it, that's a misconception on your end

[golden totem]

Or at least some visual effects

[lilac stag]

Just macro purple fireworks to sectech.

[golden totem]

[lilac stag]

I’m serious. They make me smile.

[alpine wraith]

macro taivan to sec tech

at least something big will come off it

that boi is not split

[vale pine]

just add the

"a turtle made it to the water"

sound to secret

[lilac stag]

5 min cd no thanks

[wild hornet]

Silly question, does the transmitter require those 3 jumps

[alpine wraith]

that is one of the things yes

[vale pine]

yes

[lilac stag]

!transmitter

[wicked jolt]

The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png

[vale pine]

you have 3 tasks

one is jumping

one is collecting a orb (worse one)

one is standing in a zone

every time you use it

its randomly selected from

also fun fact

[lilac stag]

The orb scaling a wall in dawn breaker is top tier

[alpine wraith]

it also goes through walls

[lilac stag]

It literally rides the column up into the sky

https://tenor.com/view/up-bye-gif-18483444

[vale pine]

you sometimes spawn this rare mob when using the trinket (the one i am not focusing in the screenshot)

serum void reaper

if killed, gives you a toy

[fierce minnow]

wtf

[vale pine]

just spawns in open world

so if you do outdoor content, make sure to use transmitter on cd

[wild hornet]

I assume u kill it

Is it bis cuz of the stats or cause people hate themselves

[vale pine]

might get a toy

[lilac stag]

90 seconds giga stats

[vale pine]

orb has all kind of bugs to it

[lilac stag]

it’s not awful to play around. Just … buggy

[vale pine]

e.g. if blizzard ever does a underwater raid

in a similar way they did the underwater delves

the orb is not collectable in the underwater delves

tanks also love to pull you away from the orb

and if you have lags, like in 30 man raids

you have a rly bad time chasing/collecting it

[wild hornet]

That sounds fun

[vale pine]

sometimes just straight out missing it

[wild hornet]

I lag without being in a 30 man raid

[vale pine]

which means you lose a gigantic amount of your damage

[wild hornet]

[lilac stag]

Jumping triggers me more than the orb

[native zodiac]

orbs lowkey the best one

[lilac stag]

but I’m also prob one of a very few melee players who don’t slam jump every other key press.

[vale pine]

zone is best one

[wild hornet]

I slam my jump even with casters

[native zodiac]

zone takes too long to activate imo

orb is instant

[vale pine]

i think its fine if your pc is not lagging

[vale pine]

its not, you sometimes need to stand in it for a small amount of time

also need to move towards it

i think the trinket overall is one of the most annoying ones to use

sorry if a dev reads this and disagrees

[native zodiac]

honestly i prefer this to branch in s3, that was the worst trinket ive seen

[wild hornet]

Keeping up anvil and signet stacks in mplus was horrid

[vale pine]

another annoying one

[fierce minnow]

its the truth tho

[vale pine]

its one opinion

just because i disslike it

does not mean others do

[lilac stag]

Branch could fuck off

[alpine fossil]

Related question - do y'all have any suggestions for optimizing transmitter usage?

Examples:

• Sending immediately on pull gives you time to finish the task, but I take it that it might be suboptimal to finish it as fast as possible. Is it better to:
  • (opener) Get the effect for your first finisher? Or prioritize the tail end
  • Does this change if there's a chance you can't slam back to back Shadow Dances, (e.g. off boss for 1 or 2 GCDs)
• Generally, do you prioritize "covering" Shadowblades with the buff over Flag? Vice versa?
• Generally, if the platform/orb is too far, is it ever worth chasing? Like maybe "up to X seconds into your Flag"

[vale pine]

i just macro it to flag

you have enough time to trigger the effect before using secret

[alpine fossil]

Makes sense

[vale pine]

if you want to min/max more

[lilac stag]

on queen fex you may want to do it prepull

[vale pine]

can have it a seperate keybind

[alpine fossil]

I like knowing the optimal play but I'll realistically just attach it to flag

[lilac stag]

Since there’s a good amount of movement / floor shit

[vale pine]

the same applies to most macros

if you rly want to min max

you won't use most macros

and have a individual bind for everything

[alpine fossil]

I guess my main concern is less with the button press, and more with when to start the buff

[vale pine]

during dance

[alpine fossil]

Buff is 14s right? Which "end" do you prioritize?

[vale pine]

wdym

[alpine fossil]

I think you're in dance for like 16s

You jump twice then you can "activate" the buff exactly when you want it

As an example

[vale pine]

you just try to trigger it with dance

your 2nd secret will be in dance early enough

[alpine fossil]

Ok so the "start" then ty ty

[vale pine]

to benefit from it

[fierce minnow]

fuu, how big is the loss if you dont delay blades until after sectec?

like you just go dance/symbols/blades at once and lose the 2 seconds uptime

from what i gather sectec is buggy as shit and doesnt benefit from blades?

[alpine fossil]

BTW Fuu your guide on wowhead uses the wrong version of Flag a bunch. I don't think it detracts a ton, but the mismatched icons and effect might be confusing to newer players

[vale pine]

you can macro blades to secret if you are lazy

[vale pine]

the clone attacks don't benefit from it

it is explainable

secret is a 3 part attack

the first one is a physical attack, you as in your character performs

the 2 follow up attacks are performed by clones

clones are technically not you, and as such don't benefit from shadowblades

this is the official explenation too as on why it does not work

[fierce ivy]

now we're getting philosophical

[vale pine]

in terms of code

the clones are pets

[alpine fossil]

Doesn't the damage bonus from Dark Brew work on them? Isn't that a clear inconsistency?

[vale pine]

yes, damage bonuses work on them from dark brew etc

[alpine fossil]

Not saying you're wrong, just curious if it's a bug or "subtle"/unintuitive interaction

[vale pine]

it is complicated, but at least there is a explenation

that is somewhat logical

there are other things you can't explain this way

[alpine fossil]

Oh that's so tilting it does say "your attacks"

In SB

[vale pine]

well your attack

meaning the physical part of secret

in this case

gets the bonus

[alpine fossil]

Right, the clones are your damage but not your attack

[vale pine]

exactly

there are other things you can't explain logically tho

[alpine fossil]

It's correct to the wording of the spells I guess

[vale pine]

e.g. shuriken tornado does not give you full combo points

during shadowblades

[alpine fossil]

Ah true

[vale pine]

this was changed to keep the spell as a aoe ability

and not a dps steroid for single target

it makes sense from a gameplay pov

but it adds inconsistencies

[alpine fossil]

It never even occurred to me that regular Shurikens gets you full combo points during Blades

[vale pine]

my argument was and i think still is

you should know what works and don't intuitively

thats good game design

and blizz agreed to a certain level, 10.2 did fix a lot of the unintuitive things around this

(not all, and we have bugs too)

[alpine fossil]

I was thinking it was like a class/spec spell vs. "talent spell", but it works with goremaws

AFAIK at least

[vale pine]

there is a lot of weirdness in how things work

because rogue is such a old class

and the dev team never takes time to "do it right" so to say

what i mean with this is, most bugfixes are layered on top of the existing code

basically band aids

so the parts that lead to the bugs are never realy fixed

this does not mean individuals are bad developers

it is just noticably more time expensive to do a propper fix

and the dev team is from words on the street less than one person per class

and the same team needs to do bugfixes and tuning changes too

so time is a limiting factor

[carmine portal]

I would not trust that word on the street lol

[pliant ledge]

That is such bullshit for such a huge company tho

[alpine fossil]

Kinda related to weird shit - does Smeld actually give you full stealth benefits for Shadowstrike like Vanish would? I was helping a friend with their rotation a bit and noticed HeroDPS recommends Smeld+SS combos during Dance. That seems like suboptimal use unless you get that 25% bonus damage, and it'd be better to use it after Dance ends to get you an "extra" cast of shadowstrike

That ability is so counterintuitive for new players

[vale pine]

they basically need a team big enough to keep the game quality to the level that is just enough to have players drop out too much

[vale pine]

shadowmelt is weird

basically how it works is

it gives you the use of one stealth attack

[alpine fossil]

I'm not super familiar with how the addon works but I know it works off the APL

[vale pine]

so you can shadowstrike

BUT

it does not give you stealth

however you can use stealth after shadowmelt

[alpine fossil]

Yeah I'm familiar with the spell

[vale pine]

BUT

only outside of boss fights

[alpine fossil]

Only in keys/non-raid right

Yee

[vale pine]

if smelt and strike is recommended during dance

that sounds accidental

[alpine fossil]

I can ask them to try it again tomorrow morning

[vale pine]

outside of bosses (in keys)

its possible that the apl would need to have a stealth check to smelt

[pliant ledge]

yeah well, they should be lynched for that, jesus, greed corrupts everything

im talking about the shareholders and the people that create those trends, not the devs

[vale pine]

there isn't rly a reason to complain

how many people to hire or assign to a task is a companies decision

as long as the quality holds up to the companies standards, thats perfect

people are upset now because of performance issues and bugs especially in raids

[pliant ledge]

yeah but the company has sacrificed their standards for profit

so ofc there is reason to complain

[vale pine]

but its unclear if this is a problem in the amount of people that work there

or just in quality control

looking at 11.0.5 release

one thing the average did not notice is the following

11.0.5 ptr started before raid release

so the game basically split in 2 versions

• Retail
• ptr

now you had a lot of bugs and balancing happen after that

[woeful barn]

Just enough to keep the lights on. Exactly.

[vale pine]

so the retail version got updates to server sides scripts, hotfixes, tuning changes etc

but not the PTR version

once 11.0.5 released

[woeful barn]

Hiring more devs has nothing to do with share holders

[vale pine]

they put the ptr version out

and replaced the retail one

but its quite obviouse what is missing form ptr from the information i provided

all the bugfixes, tuning changes and server sided script updates

so if you looked at spell data

most of the changes ended up in hotfixes after release of 11.0.5

it is also why the bug for outlaw that people complain soo much about returned

the bug was found before raid release

and i made a pin stating how to re-produce it, and also made sure top guilds/streamers/etc knew how to do it

so it was public knowlage

means, players in the world first race know how to avoid the bug too

the bug was fixed fast before/at the start of mythic week

the reason people started to abuse the bug was

[pliant ledge]

the more i learn about the game, the more i hate this company

[vale pine]

was that people was that tuning changes ended up missing on retail

so they got curios

knowing how to re-produce the bug

it takes like 20 secs to test

and boom

we had people abuse the shit out of it again

[carmine portal]

Tbh id take almost everything said here about how the company functions/works with a pinch of salt, almost certain they are just guesses/speculation

[vale pine]

so now its a question about who to blame

if you e.g. watch "the bench" podcast

they ended up not even aware about the trivia of the bug

and assumed

[wild hornet]

Balancing team

[vale pine]

it was some age old bug that returned

[pliant ledge]

i dont need the information here to hate blizzard and capitalism in general for ruining everything it touches to produce more profit

[vale pine]

from beta or previouse xpacs

adding the information i just gave above

would probably made these individuals

have a very diffrent opinion

[keen dome]

At the end of the day, the people at Blizzard are just doing their best, in their jobs. Hating on them doesn't get anywhere. But I agree about the hate of capitalism, that's the core of the problem and the drive for profit. Rush, rush, make it better, rush, rush, etc.

[vale pine]

^

there is no reason to complain about them, they obviousely have limited time and man power

nobody working there wants a bad product

[carmine portal]

The product isn't bad though

[vale pine]

i am not here to judge that

players vote with how much they engage with the game

if the game is good, you have more players engage with it

[keen dome]

Ye

[vale pine]

even tho

blizz does a lot of mobile game trickery to keep people subscribed

(and it works for them)

[keen dome]

It's a treadmill. Which is fine, it's how these games work and up until the end of Heroic ilevel, it's really solid right now (and then it it becomes pretty fucking dire for most players but that's another discussion). It's interesting how WoW is probably in the best form it's ever been with a lot of ceveat's and rough edges.

[vale pine]

i had that realization just recently

[carmine portal]

I think this is the problem though, the people who judge the game most harshly are NOT the majority of the playerbase

[vale pine]

you know why the 3d platformer genre more or less died out?

[keen dome]

Ye. i think hacha said it the other day but it's the quiet players who just stop playing that tell the biggest tale.

[keen dome]

I'm curious

[vale pine]

basically all the big games point with long term progression systems

while 3d platformers are very short moment to moment gameplay

so basically they don't appeal to the "modern" audience

[woeful barn]

Based

[vale pine]

that wants these chores to work towards

[keen dome]

Yeah, that's true. You can't really stretch it out without reinventing it (Mario galaxy is a good example of how you reinvent that kind of game)

[vale pine]

e.g. in wow

doing something benefits you yourself and your primitively spoken tribe

so you benefit yourself and others

[pliant ledge]

the product is in fact, very low quality, for the size of the company. Especially old content has more things that are bugged than things that work properly. Hell, we are in 2024 and frontal and floor effects still clip in the ground graphics and become invisible. This is not some new game from an indie game company, this is a 20 year old game run from the biggest gaming company by market cap if im not mistaken

[woeful barn]

Diatribe lately

[vale pine]

carrot

the point you are missing is

wow is still the most successful traditional mmorpg

[woeful barn]

Size isn’t relative to quality I don’t need to read the rest based on how that started brother man. It’s all g.

[vale pine]

and as such still has a massive amount of players who are happy with how the game is developed

if we widen it to "mmo"

genshin impact is a way bigger player

[carmine portal]

Zzz speaking as if wow isnt built on 20 years of changing hardware and software. Size overall means nothing, longevity is everything

[woeful barn]

Passionate devs still exist and game is best state it’s ever been in. Nostalgia is one hell of drug

[vale pine]

the only competition blizzard has is final fantasy

[woeful barn]

Yup cause it isn’t riot RIP

[vale pine]

and even then 80% at least of the playerbase are married so to say to the warcarft universe

so even if other games would be better

they are not mmorpg players but very specifically wow players

[keen dome]

Yeah, even if another MMO came along.. Getting people to swap is a huge ask.

[carmine portal]

I come from RP realms, generally very social and casual places and the general consensus I see from everyone (100s of people attending RP events and chatting out of character) is that they love where the game is. Thematically, content wise, character wise

[vale pine]

it also creates other problems

because any new mmorpg which wants to compete with blizzard

needs to have a very good universe on par or better to warcraft

[keen dome]

Ye. RP realms are a very interesting metric to look at WoW from. Because you have players who don't engage with core systems as much as others, but still play daily.

[hollow crescent]

riot mmo seems like a cook i just hope it goes well

[vale pine]

and on top of that needs to improve significantly on the game

[carmine portal]

Apart from the fact they are starting over again lol

[woeful barn]

Yeah the lore already done for most part

[vale pine]

because if its only a small improvement, why would you jump ship

[carmine portal]

Put a bunch of years and millions into it only to restart from the ground up

[woeful barn]

Yep and that was definitely in their best interest if they did it.

[vale pine]

riot tried to compete with wow

[woeful barn]

They usually produce good stuff

[hollow crescent]

would rather them restart than put out a product thats bad imo even if it will take forever T-T

[vale pine]

they started developing their own mmorpg

[wild hornet]

Riot mmo seems to be cooking good with story

[pliant ledge]

I mean, if you feed someone shit for years and suddenly you give them stale bread they are gonna love it. The game has improved, but the changes in systems that we see now should have been implemented years ago. We are celebrating what exactly? that the company has finally started listening to the playerbase? the most basic thing a gaming company should do?

[woeful barn]

Look at arcanes quality.. all in house and not contracted out etc.

[vale pine]

hireing even one of the most well known wow developer to create their mmo

[carmine portal]

In my opinion RP realms are THE realms to look at on terms of balance and quality of things- casual players who log in every day, who engage not at the highest level but at the level.where there is the highest volume of players (your most important critics)

[vale pine]

but what they found out