The betrayer
#subtlety
hazy breach
wind canopy
This trinket isn’t great for sub you know 
tribal blade
This trinket isn’t great for sub you know <:kekdog:907207037757296710>
true!
tribal blade
The betrayer
about to run 14 dawn as sub 😉
wind canopy
hazy breach
about to run 14 dawn as sub 😉
Neat
We've had the darkest day today
We played like 4 hours of keys and only timed a single one 
(that wasnt a 13 or 12 mists to get keys back)
warm aspen
u gonna actually use it?
tribal blade
tribal blade
u gonna actually use it?
for sin yeah
warm aspen
for sin yeah
ayo what did u do in that screenshot lmao
tribal blade
ayo what did u do in that screenshot lmao
timed a 14 DB using sub
ebon tiger
replicating shadows looks like it's activating even after I've untalented it. anyone else seen this or am I missing something? feels nice with it baseline 
warm aspen
timed a 14 DB using sub
...db?
wind canopy
Dawnbreaker
tribal blade
uh it's actually deez boobs
wind canopy
This guy...
oblique grove
im one of the like 60 sub rogues who could 
soft summit
any way to disable the automatic charge mechanic with coup de grace?
wind canopy
No, otherwise people would be doing it.
soft summit
bliz is so dumb.. lets automatically turn our finisher into a diff finisher with a mechanic that charges you into the boss... what can go wrong?
warm aspen
oh shit dawnbreaker exists
still quartz
it is a feature by now
warm aspen
im brainfarting so fking hard
sinful sluice
how do i set macro for specific player?
wind canopy
Should just be @[playername] with the brackets around it
round latch
still quartz
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
tribal blade
We played like 4 hours of keys and only timed a single one <:despairge:975807482...
damn tragic, what keys did you brick
i actually had the opposite day, we timed a fuckton of keys haha
timed 3 14s today and i got 3100
14 mists, ara and db
half comet
eleem prophet
tribal blade
eleem prophet
it's ok, we swap seats tomorrow
other than siege all the 14s i have left to get are hard af
so it's gonna be brick city
wind canopy
🧱
warm aspen
man
you ALL run transmitter dont u
even the self proclaimed transmitter haters
:(((((
wind canopy
I mean, just roll better.
tribal blade
you ALL run transmitter dont u
yeah it's mandatory, i don't like the trink but i use it
because it's so fucking good for sub it's kinda nuts
i think eleem or stealthi were saying you can miss like 1/3rd of the transmitter buffs
and it's still better than the next best trinket
warm aspen
i hate the idea so much
but ig i'll have to pug a heroic princess tmrw
god im so angry
tribal blade
it's definitely worth getting
wind canopy
It's not that bad.
warm aspen
why can't we have something awesome and intuitive like that caster trinket
a mix of passive and active
:(((
tribal blade
spymasters?>
warm aspen
yupp
tribal blade
i don't think you wanna play with spymasters
that's just as bad
when they die and lose all their stacks
wind canopy
Spymaster's has its pros and cons.
tribal blade
that's all i hear about
wind canopy
Yep
warm aspen
yeah just dont die lol
tribal blade
"MY SPYMASTER STACKS"
warm aspen
ur being rewarded for playing well and punished harder when u fail
and ur still playing the unmarred base game
tribal blade
well let me tell you about dying because other people fuck up
warm aspen
which i REALLY like
tribal blade
i would rather play with transmitter than spymasters i think
warm aspen
idk i guess im autistic lol i hate my gameplay pattern being changed
unless it's something super goated like the 11.0.5 minirework
tribal blade
i'm with you though, transmitter is horrible to use
but with practice it's not so bad
warm aspen
:(( it being a raid trinket that dominates everywhere kinda just adds insult to injury tho lol
still quartz
it is really good or extremely good for a 90 sec cd trinket
warm aspen
praying for the m+ pool next tier
hope we get some sick dungeon trinkets
like sin/dh all did this tier
still quartz
at least it still allows you to move around 🙂
warm aspen
idk lol
having to do a minigame while my flag timer is ticking
just thinking about it makes me not want to log on
tribal blade
:(( it being a raid trinket that dominates everywhere kinda just adds insult to ...
this has basically become a trend for sub since the rework
so much damage being shifted into cds makes these on uses really strong
first it was ashes, now it's transmistter
and then next tier it'll be something else
warm aspen
yeah huge pain lol
tribal blade
oh i forgot branch too
warm aspen
ig m+ doesn't even have good burst trinkets
just in general
regardless of tier
it's either passive or flat damage on use
tribal blade
ashes was actually a pretty chill trinket to use compared to transmitter
you just made sure to press it before sectec
and that was it
warm aspen
yea on use trinkets themselves are completely fine
if we could just play skardyn all would be right with the world
tribal blade
yeah that would be a dope trinket to use
warm aspen
can some of us pls send that realz person some in n out giftcards or something lol
make him change skardyn for us!
soft stump
so why isnt goremaws bite takent, just curious lol
tribal blade
it's garbage
wind canopy
Not that great, also unless it got fixed, shadowed finishers consumes a stack of Goremaw's
tribal blade
it's very weak for being a capstone talent
with how it works it should realistically be more like in the middle of the tree
craggy night
Hello guyz did the macro cold blood st is buggish ?
wind canopy
What do you mean by buggish?
craggy night
cold blood don't launch ^^'
craggy night
no no it is :!(
#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique
got the same for kb
and it's work on kb so
wind canopy
Did you try relogging? Or untalenting out of CB and then back into it?
craggy night
gonna try 😮
craggy night
Did you try relogging? Or untalenting out of CB and then back into it?
you are a genious ❤️
oblique grove
id like to thank god for giving me life at the same time that kyveza is a fight
static juniper
Guys, on ST i should use SB always on the flag mastery buff right?
wind canopy
SB should be used some GCDs after Flag, yes.
static juniper
the idea is that we get more finishers out during the mastery buff window right?
and therefore more value than the flat dmg per finisher udring the flag itself?
warm aspen
they feed each other lol'
blades gives more CP to ramp up flag's mastery, flag gives more mastery to be scaled by the 20% bonus dmg on blades
as buggy as blades dmg part is, it still counts for SOMETHING
static juniper
So the ideal time to SB would be 4 seconds after flag casts so the remaining flag time + mastery buff is equal to the SB window?
warm aspen
blades literally doesnt buff sectech
then, sectech is our first in dance finisher
aka the first thing that deals real dmg
so we send blades after it to lose nothing of value
wind canopy
So the ideal time to SB would be 4 seconds after flag casts so the remaining fla...
Basically, yes. Fuu’s guide on wowhead shows when
static juniper
Basically, yes. Fuu’s guide on wowhead shows when
yeah i was trying to do these openers and was wondering what was the reason behind SB timing
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ndbtLVW2RCy7YHN9#fight=41&type=damage-done
dinged 80 last night and went to a normal pug
i just thought we want to SB late so that we get 1 more CP generator in its window rather than amp sectech but i didnt know it literally does not work on sectech atm
😄
warm aspen
more experienced sub bros help me out pls
how long has this bug been around lol
bcuz the core mechanic behind this bug(clone being pet dmg) has been an issue since df beta lol
pliant topaz
its a feature at this point
wind canopy
warm aspen
its a feature at this point
oh friend, i just realized this
Faker got his 5th fucking trophy
before they fixed sectech pet issue
usually i dont envy the devs for having to be a part of the mess that is actiblizz but i feel like this is the sort of situation where u pull the plug on the clone thing and just have all 3 strikes come from us lmao
topaz tundra
Hello community, I'm a rogue stealth and I'm having a lot of trouble keeping the rotation. I really need help with rotation and creating macros, ideally so that I only have 3-5 buttons. Unfortunately I don't speak English, it would be good if a German could help me.
warm aspen
lul ik our new friend doesn't speak english but i love the "im a rogue stealth" thing
"rogue stealth" should be a rank above shadows on here! only for the strongest!
wind canopy
Hello community, I'm a rogue stealth and I'm having a lot of trouble keeping the...
Sub isn’t a spec that can be trimmed down to 3-5 buttons with macros.
Just need to get practice and build muscle memory
topaz tundra
I find that sad.😭😭
barren tree
Any recommended sub streamers i can watch?
topaz tundra
I habe see this... https://youtu.be/3X9R6OqUzR4?feature=shared
summer mica
!up
wicked joltBOT
lilac stag
you are a genious ❤️
Assuming you played Fatebound assa. That bugs CB out on sub. Just for future reference if you’re wondering why it’s happening.
crisp cradle
!wa
acoustic lodge
What talent can I play instead of Shuriken tornaod for M+
acoustic lodge
Thank you Fuu ❤️
tribal blade
https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUA...
this is the build i run, i big like
lilac stag
I’m still not convinced Bond is the play over execution
vale pine
both is fine
cloud niche
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
lilac stag
Did racials get updated in simc ptr?
vale pine
Did racials get updated in simc ptr?
not sure if the changes are all on ptr yet
lilac stag
k. I’ve been out of commission last few days so haven’t kept up
vale pine
is ptr up again, if so should be easy to check
hazy breach
I’m still not convinced Bond is the play over execution
Im running execution but its way worse than it was before
Since nimble doesnt add to it
Nor does sectech
So its only eviscerates and ruptures
lilac stag
I just notice the absorb on me more often than not
hazy breach
Well ye but its not capped
lilac stag
and I figure if I need a major from a healer, 8% ain’t gonna matter
I’ll have to log some m+ and see how much the absorb is doing
short radish
it'll be fixed for 12.1 rework
tribal blade
haha i seriously doubt they do anything to it
short radish
i was trying to be generous
forest anvil
Hi all, question on macros. I was reading the wow head guide and it says to cast flagellation with shadow blades but I didn’t see this as a recommended macro. I was wondering why - is there a time you would use flagellation not with shadow blades?
tribal blade
Hi all, question on macros. I was reading the wow head guide and it says to cast...
you use them together, but not at the same instant
blades is used several gcds after flag
vale pine
quick tl;dr from me:
potential macros:
secret techniques + cold blood (with a minor loss if you play trickster for macroing)
Shadow dance + Symbols of Death (you still need symbols on a 2nd key bind tho)
Can macro Shadow Blades to Secret techniques (you technically want to use it after the gcd, but people want to reudce button count)
Can macro Shadow dance + Tea (nothing bad about it)
tribal blade
i wouldn't macro blades to sectec though personally
there are instances where you need cds for an upcoming pull/boss
but the pack you're on has enough hp where you can send a dance+symbols
and you get back everything back in time for your next cd set
lilac stag
i wouldn't macro blades to sectec though personally
Could macro it to your cb sectech if you’re using a separate ST
forest anvil
Thanks for the feedback all @vale pine @tribal blade super helpful! 🙂
lilac stag
idk. Macros not useful imo
tribal blade
Could macro it to your cb sectech if you’re using a separate ST
oh i can't be assed to have 2 sectec buttons haha
lilac stag
we don’t have that many keybinds
tribal blade
i'm just sticking with 1 sectec+CB macro
short radish
same
tribal blade
yeah i'm the same way
maybe if i really need to put out more output and it's a big enough gain
i'll dive into doing that
but for now nah
tribal blade
the ele i play with is saying i should play sub for all keys now
lilac stag
bring back aoe silence
tribal blade
he's seen me in action and says it's pretty good
lilac stag
he can pad more on trash
tribal blade
he doesn't want to go enhance and wants to stay ele, so i might say screw sin and play sub
yeah that's 1 thing
lilac stag
but yeah sub fills a good niche
lilac stag
Nope
tribal blade
so together bosses feel like shit
lilac stag
Yep
tribal blade
but as sub i do WAY more boss dam
lilac stag
So far every group I’ve run with has been happy since bosses seem easier
tribal blade
So far every group I’ve run with has been happy since bosses seem easier
yes! exactly
this was from 14 DB
i fucking destroyed the 2nd boss
i gapped the other 2 by quite a bit
i like the trade off of being target capped and having less aoe output for mongo boss damage
and so far the aoe hasn't been too far behind everyone else
if not beating people on pulls
sand patio
enhancement used to be this way
lilac stag
Give enhance a Pi. 
tribal blade
disc priests becoming the best healer because they give enhance PI
lilac stag
I think we’ve got a nice overall balance for the spec of being able to shit on a target while still doing respectable cleave
tribal blade
it does feel good right now
and nowhere near overpowered so maybe some aoe tuning could be warranted
sub is still very low representation
lilac stag
Assa feels too much aoe. If they ever nerf garrote silence I think you’d see more swap
shell lance
this was from 14 DB
DB?You say GB (grim Batol) right?
tribal blade
DB?You say GB (grim Batol) right?
nah dawnbreaker
shell lance
nah dawnbreaker
Ah ok
tribal blade
bro sub is even lower representation by % than before the anniversary patch
lilac stag
I think I can hit 632 ilvl Tuesday. I need a 639 daggie still.
tribal blade
I think I can hit 632 ilvl Tuesday. I need a 639 daggie still.
next reset my 636 dagger becomes 639 😉
tribal blade
same thing happened to me
this is the first tier in a while where it's been months before getting a myth track dagger
holy fucking shit there are literally no sub rogues in keys
even when sub gets a slight rework and is better
jesus
if that doesn't warrant a buff, i don't know what does
lilac stag
people are trained that assa is meta
It’s hard to bust that
Unless it gets a major nerf
And not a little tickle
tribal blade
i think a lot of people have actually no idea that sub is doing much better
even rogues
evidenced by taht screenshot i posted
lilac stag
mmhm
tribal blade
i dunno i also feel squishy as shit as sin
lilac stag
details doesn’t give full view of sub right now and that’s ok
tribal blade
i don't like it
gritty knot
@tribal blade what was the Overall DMG in that dungeon from u and the other 2 DPS?
lilac stag
assa also has the ability to ignore resources going for it
tribal blade
<@146180393941336064> what was the Overall DMG in that dungeon from u and the ot...
not very high, iirc me and my ele were around 1.7 mil overall
the dk was a bit under
not super high
tribal blade
when i did the 15 and the pulls were bigger i was way higher in overall before we wiped
gritty knot
I Just 3 chested +11 Dawn with assa, enhancer and me as sub but i couldnt reach the other two. They were Like 1,6 and me 1,4 k and enhancer blasted the Bosses Same Like me even more 😂
lilac stag
Only time I do more is when other dps is dead or I have aug
enhance is broken in every sense of the word
tribal blade
oh i just remembered the healer we did that 14 with was not good
he struggled in every key we did
so i died once or twice because he was literally not healing me
i died on the last boss with the line on me
popped feint
had no other defensives
and i didn't get a single direct heal from him
gritty knot
Ye that's a rogue issue tbh. So many healers Just don't heal U enough because they think ur same as ret or DK or idk 😂
tribal blade
i do feel super tanky in DB
i find DB the easiest key by a mile
at least for me
rogue's tool kit and defensives are really strong in DB
really strong
lilac stag
Ye that's a rogue issue tbh. So many healers Just don't heal U enough because th...
Dispels last boss of siege.
gritty knot
Well go CoT then with a bad healer and die to debuffs all the time even with all CDs because healer doesn't press His Buttons 😂
tribal blade
yeah a healer was flaming me for the last boss in CoT
because apparently i need to not only press feint on cd, but crimson vial too
and i was like bruh
gritty knot
😂😂
tribal blade
i am pressing feint so much and you want me to put crimson vial on top of that
i have no energy to do damage
gritty knot
Ye same. I still do it anyway because Otherwise i ll Just die 😂
tribal blade
i thought maybe i was trolling so i asked armin
and armin said that guy was very wrong
gritty knot
@lilac stag And Play dwarf too. Ur invincible at that Boss 😂
tribal blade
so vindicated
lilac stag
Sorry I need to look good
tribal blade
looking good makes me do more dps
when i see my little stubby dwarf it makes me want to cry
gritty knot
Tbh most healer don't get their CD usage right for Last boss CoT. They suddenly Panic and then Shit goes down...
tribal blade
that boss is for sure really hard for healers
gritty knot
Indeed, ye
gritty knot
Actually I Always Play Sub in CoT because it's Just too good
There are some Keys where in my opinion playing Sub IS kinda trolling on Higher Keys Like necrotic and stonevault
But apart from that Sub in some Dungeons is Just rlly good
vale pine
the problem is
lilac stag
when i see my little stubby dwarf it makes me want to cry
probably gonna VE it if the portal gets a good fix
vale pine
you can't have a discussion about whats better
because of how strong assassiantion is in any aoe scenario
supple verge
port out for sub on last 2 bosses nw seems quite good
lilac stag
after 10s I think you can have that conversation
tribal blade
There are some Keys where in my opinion playing Sub IS kinda trolling on Higher ...
sub is not trolling the 2nd half of the dungeon
supple verge
done that a few times and i like it
tribal blade
sub might be the strongest spec in the game at the 2nd half of NW
hazy breach
There are some Keys where in my opinion playing Sub IS kinda trolling on Higher ...
Why would sub be troll in necrotic
lilac stag
i'm expecting garrote as teh answer
gritty knot
Ye i meant the start of the Dungeon. Changing to sub for 3rd and 4 th Boss ofc is crazy good Same as ppl did in Dragonflight for that Endboss in dawn
hazy breach
Its not even troll at the start of the dungeon
tribal blade
i think the 1st half would be fine as sub, people just need to press kick
and use ccs
vale pine
after 10s I think you can have that conversation
i think subtlety is fine, again its a tough discussion when you compare to the absolute best aoe spec in the game
when overall numbers play such a central role in our perception of strength
tribal blade
the 1st pull is big enough where sub can BP spam as well
lilac stag
over 10's youre looking at what dps is complementing what. if one of the dps can't do any ST one of the 3 is trolling
vale pine
subtlety is actually good because it does good single target
lilac stag
mmhm
vale pine
cleave is also decent/good
tribal blade
all i know is the ele i play with has low ST, so he really wants me to play sub to carry the boss dam
lilac stag
but if you hyper focus details its like mid
vale pine
assassiantion is better in aoe, because you saw it in mdi
supple verge
it feels like a nice middle ground between sin and outlaw tbh
vale pine
its very hard to compete with it because of how high its tuned in numbers
lilac stag
but the same shit happens on WCL
vale pine
assassiantion also has rly good funnel
supple verge
this is the first patch im playing all 3 specs depending on the situation
vale pine
because of scent
hazy breach
Like ye assa does way better prio on the gatekeeper, but sub still does like 12M or so on the first pull, which is completely fine
tribal blade
the thing is it's a bit weird because when you do monster ST damage bosses take way less time
and that's a big time save
vale pine
and brings aoe damage reduction and silence
both quite potent once stuff hits rly hard
gritty knot
I mean for the first pull still Assa will destroy sub by miles in aoe. Even if u BP Spam. And also IW is Just OP as Assa idk. And prio DMG on gatekeeper is better too
tribal blade
and it's not represented well on details
vale pine
so in a sense, the strengh of assassination
gatekeeps other rogue specs from being considered
lilac stag
speedshroud doesn't show up on details either
vale pine
thats a probably decade old discussion topic, but wasn't a factor in mythic+
because assassination wasn't designed to be the dominant mythic+ spec before 10.2
hazy breach
I mean for the first pull still Assa will destroy sub by miles in aoe. Even if u...
First pull is completely fine since youll have CDs
vale pine
sub got better in 11.0.5 in mythic+ and raids
lilac stag
it's like getting hunters to not play BM
vale pine
mostly because of how strong supercharger is
hazy breach
With cooldowns sub does more damage than assa does with cooldowns, but assa does very good damage without their cooldowns
Whereas sub doesnt
tribal blade
yeah that's the bad part about sub right now
the downtime is bad
but also i've found sub easier to play as keys get higher
it's easier to use cds
gritty knot
Idk in necrotic i can never compete with the other DPS in Overall DMG tbh. And since I Play with pugs mostly that's all they Care about. Nobody will Look into Details and say "damn u fkn blasted that 3rd Boss to ashes, gj"
supple verge
when stitchflesh gets 1 phased ppl comment
hazy breach
Idk im doing like 2.3M overalls in nw
tribal blade
a lot of people will comment on that boss
because that boss kinda gatekeeps the key for a lot of people
supple verge
its like before 11.0.5
you brought an arcane mage
who was 3rd in dam
then they carry the key in the last 7 min
hazy breach
I feel like the last boss is way harder
supple verge
now i agree
tribal blade
yeah last boss is much harder now
hazy breach
Because the shield is dumb
tribal blade
sub feels better there too
hazy breach
Ye assa is horrid on that boss
supple verge
yea sin feels actually infuriating
supple verge
playing around that stupid fucking hero talent
tribal blade
playing sin on that boss is the worst experience
gritty knot
Ye agree
strange chasm
Dw they surely will nerf ass one more time and then sub will be king
You just do so much damage outside of cds as ass it's insane
hazy breach
Dw they surely will nerf ass one more time and then sub will be king
Unironically yes
supple verge
thats usually how it goes
but it used to be after heroic logs
sin got kicked in the knackers
lilac stag
it hardly got touched
supple verge
this season bucks the trend
hazy breach
Also have a +10% hp shield, 5% passive dr and 10% dr on 50% uptime/big shield on vanish
Makes living things way easier
supple verge
^
hazy breach
Than having none of those
strange chasm
But I also think next % buff we get sub will be better in raid
Bosses will simply melt
strange chasm
People are already doing 8ish minute queen fights
Sub lives and breathes for shorter fights
lilac stag
one more thing to break each patch.
lilac stag
Go away
vale pine
one more thing to break each patch. <:kekdog:907207037757296710>
actually the opposite
supple verge
i mean they literally jsut pasted blade flurry onto sin and sub
vale pine
it would make it less dependent on find weakness
which is confusing
also it would indirectly buff our cleave damage
lilac stag
actually the opposite
How may time is shadow dmg not working on patches?
vale pine
gvien that we arn't competing with the best in aoe
lilac stag
perhaps you misunderstood
vale pine
would be a welcome trade off
i understand your point
but its a one off
once it works, it typically does not break again
supple verge
im looking forward to a few years from now
when vanish gets changed to not reset BTE for outlaw
and the UI bug comes back cuz they didnt actuaklly fix it
lilac stag
i mean they literally jsut pasted blade flurry onto sin and sub
And without it we’re back to multi targeting ruptures and fuck that as sub
make assa actually be a dot spec
supple verge
ya i mean i prefer either blade flurry style or BP style
over spreading rupture for sub
so im not complaining, but it does feel a little samey
lilac stag
If you don’t like flurry, play DS and realize how shit it is
Oh not your. Tanner
rogue gonna get homogenized. Everything good goes to assa
Then eventually outlaw and sub get a part of it
strange chasm
I don't mind nimble just wish we had got something that wasn't a copy paste
strange chasm
That's also true, but it also would've been cool to have something unique
supple verge
it feels like that damage profile is just key to success in m+
lilac stag
so let’s do a thought experiment. What are you going to give sub that they don’t have to muti target dots, and not just spam BP
supple verge
blade flurry/ignite style prio damage that splashes
strange chasm
so let’s do a thought experiment. What are you going to give sub that they don’t...
See this is the other issue. No clue what you give that isn't those things
So it's a catch 22
lilac stag
if you can’t think of a solution, then copying what works is fine
vale pine
make assa actually be a dot spec
it actually is
lilac stag
it actually is
Look at how many times you reapply rupture to big adds on ghuun 2.0. It’s not a dot spec.
vale pine
assassiantion has a lot of mechanics bound to dots
rupture for subtlety is very much just a damage effect
vale pine
well thats the decision of the deisgn team
vale pine
well
again thats the decision of the design team
similar to the decision of making storm cost so high on sub
lilac stag
literally zero management dot spec.
vale pine
which all it did was make the gameplay less fun for most players
it had no net positive effect else
shell lance
for a leather boot crafting is better concealed chaos module pouch of pocket grenades or what?
vale pine
for assassiantion
making spreading rupture is very thematical
the spec is designed around having a low barrire of entry
most of its existence
it was designed around "use cooldowns on cooldown"
and you did play almost perfect by just keeping your dots up
this in combination with high tuning for raiding
is why its now multiple times as popular as e.g. subtlety
how things are designed is a internal process
the team has its vision
e.g. you saw in 11.0.5
the first dance could have simply had the depencency
of
"out of combat"
lilac stag
my point is, when you’re not adding bleeds to a big add in a mythic fight, you are no longer a dot spec
vale pine
buit the team decided to strap on 6 seconds of "out of combat" as a extra condition
vale pine
making the ability even harder to read and increasing the fustration factors
lilac stag
It’s just using dots as a resource.
vale pine
basically intentionally creating a worse feedback design
lilac stag
and they can then ignore a resource
vale pine
to fit their design values arount the spec
so the same reason assassination gets a lot of qol changes that make it easy to play and tuning that is very favorable
makes subtlety get design decisions like the first dance or similar
spark tusk
and they can then ignore a resource
double sanguine blades damage and its energy drain
vale pine
it is the dev teams design document/philosophy
we as a player/community can mostly just observe
and give our complaints
e.g. my big complain for 11.0.5 was
how hard it is to know if a change is good
spark tusk
makes subtlety get design decisions like the first dance or similar
I'm not sure I understand how decisions like TFD are lead to by the changes to assa
why are those related
vale pine
and how most changes leading up to 11.0.5 ended up making things worse
vale pine
why are those related
basically my argument is
there is a certain amount of lets call it crunch in systems
crunch is typically refered to design decisions that are not seen as a net positive
spark tusk
Also just being in this chat and looking at the current state of the spec, the state of sub since 11.0.5 is largely positive compared to 11.0, no?
lilac stag
Also just being in this chat and looking at the current state of the spec, the s...
Yes
vale pine
so my point is
lilac stag
unless you are a DS simp
vale pine
the design pattern/directions of specs are diffrent
assassiantion is more qol and less crunch
lilac stag
the negative is we have one spec setup
vale pine
subtlety is more crunch, and as such gets a lot of these friction systems
lilac stag
and talents are still krangled
vale pine
Also just being in this chat and looking at the current state of the spec, the s...
diffrent point but yes
lilac stag
If you don’t find the current version enjoyable, or too difficult to manage you’re out of luck
vale pine
the point is
spark tusk
Like my larger complaint about sub before was that sub had way too high of a skill floor and steep learning curve, was very hard to onboard someone to the concepts. Right now I feel that floor has lowered without sacrificing the ceiling, and I think (though I am experienced so I can't say this for sure personally) that someone new will have an easier time picking up Sub, and that's a good thing.
vale pine
if you go incremental
10.0 -> 10.2 was not a net positive
10.2 -> 11.0 was not a positive
11.0 -> 11.0.2 was not a positive
lilac stag
Like my larger complaint about sub before was that sub had way too high of a ski...
Entry is easier. Yes
spark tusk
the negative is we have one spec setup
Yeah I see that for sure, esp compared to assa's veritable fucking leaflet of build options
vale pine
and 11.0.5 highly depended on supercharger to be a net positive
you couldn't say for sure if things got better or worse
but needed weeks or apl rewrites and testing to know
lilac stag
Yeah I see that for sure, esp compared to assa's veritable fucking leaflet of bu...
If you spec DS, it immediately apparent all the problems sub still has
spark tusk
e.g. #assassination message lmao
vale pine
while you can now say 11.0.5 is a net positive
lilac stag
Which is why I worry how much of the fun is tied to current tier
alpine wraith
sub is easier to perform now when you have to calc time to die
before you could mess up quite a bit your POTENTIAL dps
and feel a bit glum
vale pine
Like my larger complaint about sub before was that sub had way too high of a ski...
is subtlety easier than in 11.0.2?
alpine wraith
like AH used vanish too early boss died 30 secs later
could have sneaked one more set of cds
now only thing you can do is look at SoD/cb/sec tech/dance
and make a decision on around 20-30 secs
instead of the the planning dust took
vale pine
sub 11.0.5 is clearly easier than 10.2
alpine wraith
that might make people way happier
vale pine
but 11.0.2 i am not even sure
spark tusk
is subtlety easier than in 11.0.2?
I believe the barrier to entry and understand the concepts are, yes. But like I said, I'm coming at it from an experienced eye so I'm not 100% positive. My comments are not about ease of play at the high end, only the experience of a new player
alpine wraith
i didnt mind either way
vale pine
I believe the barrier to entry and understand the concepts are, yes. But like I ...
i think its easier to do good damage on short fights
spark tusk
How hard is it to enter the door to subtlety
alpine wraith
we are as unpopular as before
vale pine
just because of how front loded the spec is
alpine wraith
so people that didnt like sub before dont suddenly like it now
it is just us people saying well that is not as bad as we though
vale pine
but i think the spec got actually more complicated
lilac stag
we are as unpopular as before
One decent adjustment to assa clouds that.
faint basalt
So funny to get world 1st sub need just like 3150 rio
alpine wraith
might be actually more gears turning
faint basalt
lilac stag
Assa will likely always top out if it great
alpine wraith
i have some fun thinking if i can send a dry sec tech here or there
vale pine
doing your dance sequence correct does not mean playing cdr
alpine wraith
im getting used to more or less know now
vale pine
so your point might be correct that the barrire of entry is lower
lilac stag
Get sod and st together. Try to save 2 dance and sod for 90 sec. Conceptually it’s much easier.
vale pine
but there are just as much things that are not intuitive
vale pine
its just people complain less
spark tusk
Did not concern the weeds of the higher level nuances
spark tusk
But I think that's good, I want there to be a journey between entry and endpoint
vale pine
so having one less option to fail
lilac stag
nah we’re actually enjoying the gameplay. Not just the dmg
It’s a night and day difference from trickster to ds
vale pine
and doing more damage baseline, is a overall more positive feedback
spark tusk
Yeah I haven't even tried DS
alpine wraith
for me to even think about it
lilac stag
trickster all of the sudden with supercharger feels like sub of old (dfa)
alpine wraith
also the DN mark bug is so bad
spark tusk
Hero talent effects are good for the spec they're designed for
because each psec has a hero talent tree
a failure of the hero system
void hound
did 11.05 change the coup usage rules?
spark tusk
but the effects in isolation are good for the specs they apply to
vale pine
did 11.05 change the coup usage rules?
kinda yes
alpine wraith
you sec tech first now
lilac stag
full send for the most part
vale pine
you just send secret first usually in dance
alpine wraith
and only hold coup if you are about to do the dance with flag and blades
void hound
even with coup and fazed up?
alpine wraith
otherwise send
void hound
ok
spark tusk
Flag is your major anchor, SecTec is your minor anchor
I think of it like that
everything else aligns with those 2
spark tusk
God I wish we got glyphs for visuals on sectec
vale pine
because its now the limiting factor
spark tusk
or just visual updates
vale pine
secret needs to get visuals
vale pine
it still rides on the placeholder ones from 8 years ago
vale pine
vale pine
princess has a lot of good visuals
fallow nimbus
Isn't cb kinda like the anchor after 2nd cds?
spark tusk
cb?
oh right you mean that thing
that's inside my macro
that I'm not going to press manually
vale pine
you can hold cb for 2nd secret
spark tusk
u can't make me
vale pine
in flag
spark tusk
press cb
vale pine
its actually a gain to do so
keen dome
high5 never manually pressing CB
vale pine
so i recommend it over that
spark tusk
but even that
vale pine
I would sooner just have 2 sectec binds
3
keen dome
I don't mind being a tiny bit suboptimal if it means comfy
alpine wraith
that depends on the boss for ky veza it messes up my timings so i dont do it
alpine wraith
or court you would miss the dmg amp
vale pine
oh wait
alpine wraith
maybe for queen you can
vale pine
2 is fine
fallow nimbus
Use the inbetween cb a bit later so it's ready for 2nd dance in cds 
vale pine
but for me its like
spark tusk
Ye I meant sectec naked, then sectec+CB as the two macros
vale pine
out of dance secret - 1 bind (without cold blood)
hazy breach
I put CB on my tea bind
vale pine
in dance secret - 1 bind (with cold blood)
in dance secret - 1 bing (without cold blood)
spark tusk
tea is in a very comfy natural place for me in assa
and not taken by something in sub
vale pine
you can just macro it to dance on sub
tho tea isn't that good
supercharger is just too good
spark tusk
I'm just saying my tea slot is currently unused for sub, because I always just bind it to dance if I'm using it (which in this patch is never)
So I can just put cb there
vale pine
same
spark tusk
just cause I've used that bidn for it for years and I'm fine on keybinds
spark tusk
I just use it as a means of consuming combo points
while out of combat
if I need to and know that they'll fade
fallow nimbus
Removing snd was the first thing i did
spark tusk
Not like a major decision for me, just habit at this point
fallow nimbus
Also the first thing I tried at the first boss was casting snd
vale pine
muscle memory hitting hard ^^
fallow nimbus
It wasn't wise putting swirly ball there
spark tusk
I put CB on my tea bind
Hey Eleem can you stop
giving me ideas
that make things work
ok nvm I'm CB button pilled now
vale pine
e.g. https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923750073499648/13024693...
just saw the link now, you think this is a net negative?
spark tusk
just saw the link now, you think this is a net negative?
No
I think what assa has is good
I was responding to scathe saying we only have 1 talent setup now, comparing it to what assa has
vale pine
i agree, there was a lot of time spend in iterating over talents to make soo many good
subtlety is kinda one set of talents
you play always (because it hasn't gotten similar amounts of dev time yet)
spark tusk
And I thought it was a funny comparison because of just how many options whispyr linked there, was just a funny message I remembered
vale pine
could argue 2 if you count in dark brew talents
the problem on sub is kinda how talents spread
there are many dead nodes
middle section is burtal
so many bad talents, you can take whatever
once you picked the strong options
all of them you can just remove
and nothing would change
and some of the other ones feel like they could be nice if they get some small adjustments/changes
neverless
i think its more difficult to complain now than pre 11.0.5
because the spec is more competitive
shell lance
this is the build that i use at the moment
spark tusk
shell lance
so i don't put a point in goremaw's bite?
vestal escarp
Depends whats your objective
shell lance
Depends whats your objective
M+ and raid
fallow nimbus
I have just 1 sod charge
vestal escarp
M+ and raid
Dont talent into gwb then, ever
strange chasm
I liked goremaw in keys S3 DF
vestal escarp
Tried it quite a while at the time, to me it was placebo
young heart
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
supple verge
anyone remember how to set details to filter out specific mobs
i did it for the slimes in DOTI but i cant remember how
void hound
during our burst, do we play around transmitter or flag?
like, do we back to back dance to fit it all into transmitter, or do we wait for flag mastery?
fallow nimbus
You flag finish dance strike sectec blades and solve transmitter before sectec
Always double dance sectec with cds
Flag mastery is active when you hit it
void hound
no no thats not what im talking about
im talking about leaving a gap between the dances to utility more of the mastery buff
or if fitting it into transmitter is better
void hound
i think im not communicating what i mean properly
uneven scarab
You want flag+transmitter to cover your double dance+sod
why would u want a gap in there
You absolutely back to back dance during that
bright solstice
I saw people switching to sub, is it still awful to play gameplay wise?
spark tusk
I saw people switching to sub, is it still awful to play gameplay wise?
the 11.0.5 changes were good for gameplay, no it's not awful to play, it's actually quite fun now seems to be the general consensus
vale pine
yes, 11.0.5 made subtlety a lot more fun
especially suprercharger feels rly good with the dynamic the extra symbols charges provide
if you want to be critical, there are a lot of complicated mechanics still on the spec
as well as outdated or weak/boring talents
(which i would argue would be a net benefit to improve on)
bright solstice
That's great to hear
vale pine
also the spec got a buff (due to bugfixes and supercharger)
and perception on a good tuned spec is more positive
so if you want to learn sub, its not a bad time
if you don't assassination is probably currently in the spot you only switch off because you like to play the others
(the patch allows you to play all 3 sucessfully)
void hound
so i was extremely sceptical of the changes but they are indeed quite fun
although its still hard to recommend sub over sin
vale pine
although its still hard to recommend sub over sin
for raid both is fine
for mythic+ i mentioned it earlier
assassiantions aoe is probably one if not the best in the game, hard to compete against
void hound
yeah but "both are fine" is always a "play assa" just because of the difference in learning curve
spark tusk
I still like playing sub because I like feeling special b/c nobody plays sub
void hound
and yeah for m+ its a no brainer
void hound
<:dracthyr_blush:1002454114967490590> I still like playing sub because I like f...
youre so real for this
i play sub cause it fits my ~aesthetic~
vale pine
subtlety has some advantages
if you go all in on aoe on sin
you lack single target
your aoe is insane tho, i am still surprised it never got nerfed
vale pine
and scent of blood and iron wire are kinda op
vale pine
neverless, subtlety brings burst damage and decent cleave
the pure single target and higher burst are good
also what le mentioned
given that assassination palyer typically sacrafice single target talents (which they don't need to as heavily as its done)
you have higher trade offs
subtlety not having options for such trade offs is more appealing
because you don't rly sacrafice aoe for single target and vice versa
void hound
did they fix nimble flurry btw
vale pine
did they fix nimble flurry btw
it wasn't rly broken
void hound
didnt it do less dmg than intended?
vale pine
let me explain
its a old problem, but it can be confusing
basically, target dummies and often open world mobs can behave diffrently to the norm
this is why you should always use the dummies in OG or SW
they are the least likely to have bugs
void hound
XD
vale pine
if you are in the new zone and do damage on the aoe dummies
they get like 10% less dps from nimble because of this
but then there are other things
there is the fazed buff
or well rather debuff
it does not work on nimble flurry
but what does work is find weakness
the problem now is
you can have wild swings in output
depending on find weakness uptime or not
it just means the entire spell is confusing and in theory would also mean you technically needed to track how many targets have find weakness if you ever plan to use BP on trickster
neverless, given these target dummie behaviours, some of the tesing done was wrong
and we figured it out after looking deeper into the issue
just to be clear
this isn't the first time dummies betrayed people
e.g. it was common in SL and BfA to have certain dummies produce incorrect results
bottom line is, you can assume nimble flurry to work as intended
void hound
fine is not good enough when you can press N and get like 30% more output
vale pine
its just rly hard to compare
void hound
whats under/overtuned is always relative to where you put the marker
right but thats all that matters
vale pine
becuase some specs ended up so OP
and if you compare to the op
you more times then not get dissapointed
void hound
you always compare to the OP
maybe not the the very best spec
but the top 3-5
also you compare within your class
and that is the bigger issue
vale pine
aoe or m+
void hound
you can spec to assa and get way more output
vale pine
rly show off shortcommings in effort of balance
and tww has too much balance patches too frequently atm
to have a settled opinion
also means, we will need better tools or statistics to keep up with that in the future
void hound
i dont mind the frequent changes
vale pine
one thing i am still surprised nobody complains about is
how bad the balancing was during the wfr
OP classes did not get nerfed even when they ended up outpacing others by 2x
a good example was evoker healer
this is terrible for the game
because the wfr had the OP classes in their arsenal
tropic rapids
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
so guilds did try to recruite players and classes according to this
to now be fucked, because these classes got nerfed
void hound
because the wfr had the OP classes in their arsenal
even they struggled to get enough frost dks going for ovinax lmao
class swapping this tier was bad
vale pine
some strategies just don't work anymore with the same strategies
for me the solution is
to stop balancing around the world first race
there shouldn't be a reward to be in the world first race
if it comes to tuning
these are the best players, they need to be able to adjust
void hound
RWF can give a good indicator on whats op and what needs changing
so i dont know if i agree with that
frost dk was so god damn good, they needed a nerf
vale pine
why
why would you want to not nerf a op
for 3 weeks
just because of the wfr?
keeping the op just gives them extra benefits
scarlet radish
i mean because its doing good dam being played by literally the best of the best, doesnt mean its gonna be op for the average joe
void hound
oh i thought you argued the exact opposite
not nerfing OP specs
cause of the race
mb
sand patio
I should use sod+sec outside dance?
warm cedar
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
spark tusk
I should use sod+sec outside dance?
Things have changed, Sec is your anchor, not dance.
Use sec on CD, and decide if you're going to use SoD, Dance, Both, or Neither with sectec each time, base on how close you are to flag.
cinder axle
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.somone got the symbols macro that i dont use more charges?
wind canopy
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
cinder axle
ty
iron imp
Is the faze bug fixed yet?
pliant topaz
What fazed bug
pliant topaz
i mean because its doing good dam being played by literally the best of the best...
Also this isn’t even remotely a real argument. Average joe in your words is represented by the 50th percentile, u can easily check how oppressive a spec is represented at different percentiles. With how simple arcane and frost are these days, they were also gapping people at 50% percentile
Which kinda ruined the entire m+ pugging as a result. Idk if u remember but literally week 2 of M+ it was impossible
To get into 12s as anything but the “god comp”. Pretty sure it was first time ever a foe comp was made week 2 of the season. That’s how oppressive the specs were
iron imp
Fazed parry immunity was applying to the whole party last week
alpine wraith
still does
iron imp
sick
icy knot
is there something like a wa for Treacherous Transmitter?
icy knot
ok^^ thank you
supple verge
lol incredible
vale pine
party or raid?
both
sand patio
Things have changed, Sec is your anchor, not dance.
Use sec on CD, and decide ...
really?
uneven scarab
yes
sand patio
feels wierd to use sec without dance
vale pine
feels wierd to use sec without dance
does not happen a lot
uneven scarab
well ideally you always use it with dance and sod
Yeah it is rare that itll happen
hazy breach
Ye its pretty rare and its mostly for the extra unseen blade procs from it
Rather than it doing a lot of damage
sand patio
so I hold dance/sod for sec? if close like 5s?
hazy breach
You want to use 2 dances and 2 symbols in your flag+blades always
And then you want to squeeze in as many as possible inbetween while still having 2 for the burst
sand patio
nice ty
warm aspen
managed to snap leech M shoulders for 630k
ngl
basic bitch m shoulders dropped to like 250k at one point
i think we're just hitting a recession lol
alpine wraith
yea but these are usually 1m
they have dropped to like 800k sometimes but never this low
warm aspen
ehhhhhhhhhhh the reasonable price feels like around 700k to 750k here on illidan
sullen hare
Are you gonna try to flip em or wear them?
alpine wraith
not flipping just wearing them
now time to hoard gold for next season
already got leech shoulders leech ring avo belt
sullen hare
Nice!
vale pine
just type !log
rugged condor
lunar bluff
how do yall sim sub for keys
jaunty umbra
dslice
vale pine
dungeon slice
jaunty umbra
goated tc
vale pine
dslice good for sub?
yes, its good for rogue
lunar bluff
i dont like it for sin
vale pine
it is always just one data point
for gear evaluation perfect
but for talents might be just one data point
you usually want to spezialise more
lunar bluff
i just feel like I got way too much crit, i want to try some sub 12s
cinder axle
is madqueen trinket better then Empowering crystal for M+?
alpine wraith
madqueen is good if you manage to snipe things quite a bit
pog got mythic transmitter finally
after all this time
lilac stag
gz
sand patio
which talent gives refund of cb after eviscerate?
vale pine
shadowcraft
wind canopy
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1302556579157114921
Thanks btw
vale pine
no problem, its just for fun
wind canopy
no problem, its just for fun
Need a place to banish armin to from time to time
vale pine
got the coup bug in a key
lilac stag
Unluck
mental comet
what week of tier is it now? like 10?
vale pine
more like 8th
bleak wind
its 7th mythic, if you count hc its 8
crystal spear
!guide
sinful sluice
Saw 20% on ovinax today, probs can kill next week hopefully
But damn i wanted to play sub for this boss
But our raid leader asked me to swap so im forced to play assa now 😓
vale pine
Saw 20% on ovinax today, probs can kill next week hopefully
nicuuu
vale pine
But damn i wanted to play sub for this boss
you can, its not terrible
alpine pollen
!wa
novel plaza
Why are people playing void reaper contract on rash ?
half comet
i think people are just playing void reapers contract in general on sub
plus it has more execute on rash ig
so does mandate
novel plaza
There just more diversity in trinkets I see on other bosses
lucid jackal
It does bonus damage in Execute so
tulip gorge
why does the wowhead guide say that the trickster m+ build plays without shuriken tornado, when in fact it does pick it?