assassination

[glass tulip]

Are you in heroic or mythic ash?

[viscid spear]

Heroic, trying to get crit gear from Sylv

[glass tulip]

ah

zoomin

[viscid spear]

Hard to leave the raid quickly outside of hearthing, lol

[glass tulip]

I would just hearth and run

its like 25 seconds from oribos

[viscid spear]

25 seconds? Who's zoomin' now

[glass tulip]

drop in the portal, take tp, walk in

ez

[viscid spear]

The tp near Perdition Hold?

Oh shit, I could've been using the tp near Ve'nari?

[loud light]

the animaflow teleporter in venari's place goes to right next to the raid portal

desmotaeron

[viscid spear]

I've just been running up from Korthia

[loud light]

[viscid spear]

Guess no one ever knew how I got there

I just hope we can actually clear, I have next to no faith in pugs

[spice spire]

[viscid spear]

Remember how the tank adds were sorta an issue last night?

Here they're just screaming like Karens

"Don't die with CDs"

oh no I'm about to die, better pop all my CDs so I don't use them after KT uses me

[hollow river]

[pine ore]

this is the play for m+ ?

couldnt find the correct one tree

[hollow river]

Not even really about being fine or not, more about not wanting to be a bench warmer because everyone else brings utility

[hollow river]

You can sim yourself to see

[nova flax]

any guild that doesnt get hall of fame that benches their player because of "the meta" is delusional

[hollow river]

The one that gives Kevin oozing might be good

[slow marsh]

Yeah or some people play marileth for the Kevin uptime if you're good with sniping mobs

[nova flax]

player > meta class

[hollow river]

It’s not about “the meta” buddy

It’s just about having Rallies, Darkness, possibly WFT etc

[pine ore]

zoldycks i assume

[hollow river]

I’m not speaking about damage tuning whatsoever

[nova flax]

if you are mechanically solid and consistent then you wont get benched regardless of what class u play

[hollow river]

Yeah

[nova flax]

unless ur at the top top end

[hollow river]

I mean, just because you believe that doesn’t make it true for everyone

If your roster is melee heavy, you’re going to bring an extra utility you think can help kill a boss>no utility

[viscid spear]

Hoping to get this Sylv kill

[nova flax]

id rather bring a player that I know won't die to stupid shit

than a certain class

[hollow river]

I mean imagine for example

Both players are the same skill level

It’d all come down to do I need this extra utility, or do I need more damage. Basically

[viscid spear]

What's considered a low Haste? I'm at 638 right now and I'm hoping to get more crit but I'd lose haste

[hollow river]

If sims say more crit items, get more crit items

I was at like lower than ~15% haste at one point while gearing this tier. Frost shards had me grabbing every crit item in the game

[viscid spear]

God forbid I get both items from Sylvanas eventually, that's 200 Haste lost

[balmy condor]

I heard you play a lot

[nova flax]

this guy is goo- hes pretty go- he plays with-

..

he plays a lot

[viscid spear]

"Oh you play a lot? You must be pretty good"

[balmy condor]

@sand sigil do you recognize the man in this image

[gusty mirage]

Play recouperator instead of cloaked in shadows, also you’re better off playing WPS instead of lethal

[nova flax]

https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticCrypticGoshawkAMPTropPunch-06qFOJgOC3cS13cz

[gusty mirage]

More prio dam + more ST

[balmy condor]

[nova flax]

"he plays with uhhh- idk who he plays with"

truly a humbling experience

[sand sigil]

hahahahhahahahaha LEGEND

i didn't even know that was u lol

[nova flax]

[gusty mirage]

Good afternoon Señor James

[sand sigil]

just waiting for the sin and outlaw buffs in tonight's PTR build

[strange python]

uhuh

[vestal wren]

👀 did i hear buffs?

[hollow river]

Damn you must have some 🔥 ass copium over there bro

But we can all pray

[dawn ivy]

no shot sin is getting a counter buff

ill nut

[sand sigil]

it is my personal philosophy that feral should be top ST by 5-7%, followed by sin, and then BM hunter. enhance can be below that and then the rest of the classes. no other form of balance makes any sense for raid

aka we can expect sin buffs in tonight's ptr build

see how that works?

[balmy condor]

no but as long as you're happy man

[dawn ivy]

i mean the enhance gut is coming down the pipeline eventually thats basically set in stone

but a sin buff would be surprising

[hollow river]

I mean I agree with the philosophy 100%

I just don’t think blizzard does

[dawn ivy]

sin looks like its in that very unfortunate place of "not so bad it needs help, but nowhere near being good enough"

[sand sigil]

real and true

at least sin should be goated in pvp

so it does have that going for it

w/ the 2/4pc and dusk meaning u can do goes before their trinkets come off cd and u got hemotoxin

[vestal wren]

i don't think sub will be that popular in pvp with double rng tier set

so i can see sin becoming dominant

[dawn ivy]

yeah sin seems like its in a good spot for pvp, which sucks for me because thats dead content so sin is still basically dead this tier in my eyes

[vestal wren]

unsure, sin seems quite good with 4p and dusk

[sand sigil]

yeh sin seems alright just have to wait 3 weeks lol

or 5 weeks rather

[dawn ivy]

of course we're talking CURRENT numbers but its a bit far below sub right now isnt it

[vestal wren]

tier set shenanigans :/

[dawn ivy]

even in best cases, sub is a decent % above sin

[vestal wren]

yes, sub is ahead due to better synergy with sylvanas daggers

[viscid spear]

People keep leaving group and pulling Sylvanas

[hollow river]

Do you not want to play sub for prog?

[sand sigil]

no i'm down for sub in prog for sure

[dawn ivy]

sub prog will be good

[sand sigil]

i just think like sub has its things which make it so that it shouldn't be better in ST than sin

like sub can do ok burst aoe, good sustained aoe, bis funnel, and more mobility

so therefore sin should do more pure ST than sub

[dawn ivy]

sub should get better funnel and drop its ST a wee bit

[glass tulip]

better funnel? its already so good 🤣

[slow marsh]

It's just a result of relying on shiv as sin

[dawn ivy]

it would need to be buffed it they nerfed their st

[slow marsh]

Envenom does not great damage outside of shiv

[dawn ivy]

i just think thats a good niche for sub

[slow marsh]

Meanwhile sub can storm evis storm evis

And we fok fok fok envenom

[viscid spear]

You know us, we love to FoK

[sand sigil]

also sin 2t is bad for who tf knows why

[dawn ivy]

THATS what sins thing should be

BiS 1-3 targets

[sand sigil]

like frost, destro lock, sin rogue, and frost dk should be bis 2t

[vestal wren]

every time sin was better on pure st and sub was better at funnel

[sand sigil]

w sin at the top

and it's just not

[dawn ivy]

i think they took cleave like that out of the game

[vestal wren]

we had 5% of the playerbase subtlety
and 80-90% of the playerbase assassination

[dawn ivy]

destro is the only class thats REALLY good at 2 target

[vestal wren]

just my input to "sin sould be better/above on single target"

[dawn ivy]

spriest/sin are only decent when you do 2T

[sand sigil]

nahhh survival the only class that's REALLY good at 2t 😂😂

[dawn ivy]

hell something like arms warrior can just be better

truuu

[vestal wren]

assassination is also way better on cleave

[viscid spear]

Leader peace'd out

Made me the leader, for some reason

[hollow river]

Sub is just insane at it’s niches

[dawn ivy]

its not a niche if its good at basically everything

subs niche is that its NOT good at 2-4 targets

LMAO

[hollow river]

LOL

[dawn ivy]

it has BiS ST and some of the best 5+ (surely not THE best)

[vestal wren]

but "all of its niches" is literally funnel damage

[hollow river]

I meant it’s funnel and aoe

[vestal wren]

sustained aoe is not something that was relevant in raiding for a long time

and aoe of sub is still weak compared to some other specs/classes

else you would see subtlety rogues blasting/soloing adds in this raid

[hollow river]

For sure. It’s just better than the other rogue specs at aoe

[vestal wren]

time to reroll survial 👀 ?

[dawn ivy]

YEAR OF THE SPEEEEEAAAARRRRR

nah SV bugs are getting fixed and its gonna jump back into the middle of the pack (highest its ever been tbh)

[vestal wren]

btw. funny thing is that assassination would be ahead or equal in single target output if it wasn't for sylvanas dagger

[dawn ivy]

im glad that even with the bugfixed to SV coming theyll still be relatively decent

i dont want syvl daggers nerfed though because then wed just see rogue not be taken for any reason

those daggers are the fine line of relevancy

[vestal wren]

my confidence is also not super high that balancing would happen if they nerfed them

[dawn ivy]

yeah no shot

sylv dagger nerf would be an after thought, on the way out the door kind of thing

[vestal wren]

also i agree with james that assassination should be closer in pure st output and strong in low target cleave

[wind dune]

my only dream for assassination is baseline crimson tempest

[vestal wren]

ideal case all 3 rogue specs would be within ~5% in output

[wind dune]

feels so bad having to talent your aoe in M+ there is other specs like it but it feels really outdated lol

[dawn ivy]

sin is 1-3 targets, outlaw is 2-5, sub is 5+ and real funnel

also is it me or is sub funnel not even that good

it feels like its the same as if i was just doing a normal ST rotation

[vestal wren]

you can sim the diffrence by running a st sim and a sim with more tagrets with priority_rotation=1

[pine ore]

did 11.2k in 27 top with zoldykcs - guess thats decent

a bit more then what i am doing in sub as well

[tight ginkgo]

i mean tbf ToP is pretty bad for sub

[arctic hare]

HMMMMMM

I do believe its finally time, to get the fangs of the father.

[hollow river]

better in pure st. there, fixed.

I’m only joking fuu 🙃

[vestal wren]

i know haha, i am just not confident in subtlety being played when numerical behind

maybe i am wrong on that but bfa/legion did provide some data that did lower my confidence

[slow marsh]

Well imo ease of use does come into play or at least should

[hollow river]

Maybe the sub committee has grown a bit after so many new people discovering it this tier

Yeah I agree blades

Sin ST is way easier in execution

[dawn ivy]

yeah sub is pretty punishing

[vestal wren]

sub us just very punishing

[dawn ivy]

almost wish it was somehow less punishing

but it would require a reqork and obviously it would probably lose what makes it fun if they decided to do a rework

[vestal wren]

this was play rate of the 3 specs throughout legion

[grizzled jay]

@vestal wren when can we go back to having fun with Subterfuge

[dawn ivy]

2-3 weeks

[vestal wren]

and sub was e.g. good during the first 3 raids but the play rate does not reflect that.

[grizzled jay]

I miss Ny'alotha Sin

[vestal wren]

subterfuge is iirc better with the new tier set, so soon™️

[grizzled jay]

Exsang time? Pog?

[dawn ivy]

LOL

no

youre never getting nyalotha sin back tbh

[hollow river]

I’m glad sin gets a little bit more technical in 9.2 though

[grizzled jay]

[vestal wren]

i mean the 4p is kind of like exsang

[hollow river]

But more punishing if you don’t do the shiv/sepsis/vendetta logic

[grizzled jay]

That 15s burst window felt so good

[vestal wren]

corruption assassination def. had some appeal

not my personal fav. but i can relate to ppl liking it

[wind dune]

echoing blades in m+

[dawn ivy]

i want sin to get a bit more complex, or have sub somehow become less unwieldy

If we could convert Sin into being a spec that genuinely considers Envenom uptime as a priority, i think that would be a step in the right direction

but theyd probably need to rework envenom buff to actually do something

[vestal wren]

i honestly think sin is great as a more simpler spec that does allow some mistakes

not saying it needs to be super simple, but it just is very convenient if this is the case for ppl who don't want to over optimize like we often do on #subtlety

[slow marsh]

I mean, I think that there's a lot more optimization and min-maxing inside of sin than people give it credit

But it is more of a lower floor type of deal compared to sub

[vestal wren]

i think all specs have room for optimizations and min/max

[grizzled jay]

Ny'alotha Sin was pretty punishing if you messed up

[slow marsh]

To me, sub just seems like it's harder than it actually is because you're playing around symbols and dance charges versus shiv and bleeds

[vestal wren]

but you are on point, the gain from min/maxing on sin always seems fairly low

[dawn ivy]

sub just has alot to mentally keep track of, more than most any other classes, something that me personally I dont think I've ever felt perfect on or ever will

sub is also just massively unwieldy

you have to think about target counts constantly

[vestal wren]

i mean a simple example is multi target rupture

on assassination you have the confidence that applying a rupture won't hurt your dps

on subtlety, you need to consider how long the target survives to decide if you apply rupture

ofc subtlety only applies it on low targets due to BP

so the pure effort in maintaining bleeds on assassination is a lot higher

[dawn ivy]

doesnt exactly help that shiv windows arent even shiv windows anymore

even without the tier

shiv just has been fire and forget and dont even worry too much about minmaxing it

[vestal wren]

tbh looking at 9.2 i feel it takes time to get used to shiv in aoe

[dawn ivy]

shiv in aoe isnt even something ive cared to test out

[grizzled jay]

Pool Shiv windows for that 0.1% gain

[vestal wren]

i remember EP window being something people min/maxed a lot

[dawn ivy]

oh 100%

[slow marsh]

Shiv and AOE doesn't even change anything really. I mean you already were supposed to just shiv something that lives 9 seconds and then keep dotting

[dawn ivy]

i still do sometimes by accident

[vestal wren]

and when testing min/maxing in the apl it was like "oh this isn't even a damage gain"

[slow marsh]

Yeah I don't know. I guess it could just be me but sub doesn't seem much more difficult than any other spec. The hardest part about sub to me is pv and that's just because I always forget to stab in between dances

Well not always but you get my point

[vestal wren]

we talked about it in the 9.2 thread yesterday

[dawn ivy]

its the target count for me, ESPECIALLY with this new tier set

[slow marsh]

Yeah the Target count in rupture I can understand but to me that doesn't seem to pop up as often

[grizzled jay]

Sub isn't hard but ez spec = more brain room for raid mechanics

[vestal wren]

subtlety will need to track a lot of things in 9.2 with sht, pv stacks and shadowblades and gets more reactive due to 4p procs

[dawn ivy]

yeah its all a relative thing

[grizzled jay]

So Sin is the best

[slow marsh]

It's just the short cd windows vs keeping uptime. And when you're learning the spec cd windows seems a lot harder than just have good uptime

[vestal wren]

assassination in contrast gets more tactical in 9.2

[arctic walrus]

I shall not forget you my boy @oak sky the time is now

[oak sky]

Yo whatup

[frigid sleet]

wouldnt you Shiv before using CT in m+ packs to get increase damage on inital hit ?

[vestal wren]

you are in a guild with rae, didn't know

[slow marsh]

No

[oak sky]

@arctic walrus whats this mean my brother

[frigid sleet]

I mean in 9.2 ofc

[echo geyser]

are u raiding with rae?

[arctic walrus]

10 bosses

[oak sky]

Get it done

Well my mage has 3 dom slots but no 3rd unholy gem and also no chisel

[clever kindle]

Thats why outlaw is fun to me, so much chaos you can always find a little bit to improve on, shame the damage hasnt always matched and it's hard to make a case for outlaw if sin does similar damage just from having reliable burst windows

[vestal wren]

i think people also have a certain fixed view on outlaw, people probably wouldn't play it if it was slightly better than sin/sub just due to that

[shy dust]

tis i Yes

im threatening to retire mid raid if put in for fate

[vestal wren]

i like that all 3 specs have their own pacing, sin is a lot slower, outlaw can be rly hectic and subtlety has a mix of high/low apm

[clever kindle]

I could be doing the same damage as our #1 dps and it wouldn't matter, the issue is just that there's no fights that particularly benefit from Outlaws playstyle right, generally fights dont have windows where not holding your cooldowns for full combos has any benefit, hard problem to solve

[echo geyser]

rae x vel

[clever kindle]

Swap to sin, still don't get externals

[cerulean nest]

so I get the shiv logic of lining it up with shorter vendettas etc., but is there any other significant rotational changes that we'll be needing to get used to otherwise? cant be bothered to practice on PTR

[viscid spear]

[vestal wren]

nice 👍

[viscid spear]

Now to ignore it completely until 4pc

I should get Kyrian up, I guess

[vestal wren]

if you plan to play outlaw/sub for sure

[viscid spear]

Or something, bc it's the only cov that I don't have at 80 on someone

So I don't have access to the mog stuff from them

What other class/spec favors Kyrian?

[clever kindle]

💥 🐔

[echo geyser]

bang cock?

[strange python]

You could mount and tmog farm!

Just do 24 months of dailies with that mushroom to be able to buy a mount

[unreal ledge]

@glass tulip yo its russell!

[viscid spear]

I was Fae in 9.0, I have everything Mushroom Wilford Brimley can offer

[arctic walrus]

Since nathria

Ram have you ever depleted a key cuz you got pulled out of stealth while skipping something

[hollow river]

I’m guessing the answer is yes

[brazen zodiac]

pog

[bleak sky]

huge

[brazen zodiac]

im kinda mad

bf goes "let me do it ill get it first try"

zzzz

[oak sky]

Changing my name to vel's phial of putrefaction

[brazen zodiac]

shoulda just let him kill sylv for me

tbh

[bleak sky]

account sharing

[brazen zodiac]

LMFAO

[bleak sky]

i'm reporting you to microsoft right now

[brazen zodiac]

no sir he just walked over to my computer and clicked i swear

[bleak sky]

I'm contemplating giving in and going sub for keys

[oak sky]

The question is how bad you want title

[bleak sky]

it's like 100 io away

not sure I can get that

[oak sky]

If you dont think you can get it why go sub

[hollow river]

Just say you’re married and it’s legal to share account btw

[oak sky]

Keep the sin flex going

I never even hit 2500 lol

[bleak sky]

idk, bricked a 25 sd and I legit felt useless

[brazen zodiac]

XD

yeah?

[oak sky]

Sd is so nice tbh

You can get so many silences in that key

[bleak sky]

ye, it's good

iron wire good

[oak sky]

I always blast sd

I wish i did keys with people that can beat me

Maybe ill do title next season

[bleak sky]

plenty of good pugs out there friendo

just go and get gapped by them

[brazen zodiac]

lfmao

[strange python]

Just in time for the patch to end

[glass tulip]

take the war I pugged that did 16.8k

[arctic walrus]

Wth…

[oak sky]

Ye cuz i dont exist in wow until 9.2

[hollow river]

The curse will last the rest of the expansion

Don’t give him false hope

[echo geyser]

yeah ofc

UH aura gem start of season 💀

[glass tulip]

he forgor 💀

[echo geyser]

u know i made a macro after that

./cancelaura Unholy Aura
/cast Shroud

also recent 30 spires combat bug, not sure if it was timeable but still yikes not to get a proper try

[carmine dawn]

Yo same

Never gonna time my 30s

[echo geyser]

[carmine dawn]

Bron pulled me out of shroud once

Made him lose my number

[oak sky]

Yeah i bricked my 30 too

I do 30s btw

[echo geyser]

yeah i got cancelaura kevin & bron as a macro

if i play those

[oak sky]

Thats how you know ramfam a pro

[echo geyser]

they have both depleted my keys before so

had to

[carmine dawn]

I just simply asked him to be stealthier next time

[echo geyser]

he kinda thicc tho

[carmine dawn]

[oak sky]

Ramfam you gotta teach me to be motivated to do keys bro

[gusty mirage]

when you forgot to change your loot spec after painsmith last week

[echo geyser]

for the io injection

[echo geyser]

im tryna get a pogstorm too rn, cause no raid cache

[gusty mirage]

I wish I could give it to you mr. ramfam

I'll probably never use it

[carmine dawn]

Idk what’s worse, getting betrayers shadow spike from vault, or accidentally being outlaw

[echo geyser]

outlaw for sure, if u still missing sylvie

[oak sky]

Wait ram dont you have veinripper

[echo geyser]

yeah but i want a pogstorm for aoe

[oak sky]

Or do you need pogstorm for weapon swap shit

[echo geyser]

u can swap weps in m+ yeah

[oak sky]

Thats so degen tbh

[echo geyser]

the veinripper does just goes on random targets unless nothing is slowed and u hit back

[oak sky]

They should kill swaps

[echo geyser]

so u cant even say its "prio" dmg

literally random

on trashpacks that is

[oak sky]

Right

That sucks

At least next tier you just get a high ilvl mh and call it a day

[echo geyser]

yuh

[glass tulip]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DP7zC4nLRYNrjg3K#fight=53&type=damage-done&source=275
can I get a thread for this log please :)

[hollow river]

[gusty mirage]

I mean I got 2 sylv daggers already

but maybe if I was sin/sub I would've gotten a phial in that spot

[bleak sky]

or a dagger with avoidance

[grizzled jay]

Grats on being Outlaw

[gusty mirage]

being who

[grizzled jay]

[hollow river]

Wish me lucky everyone

[oak sky]

With what

Oh

Gl

[hollow river]

The vault

[hollow river]

not a 2nd dagger but i'm not gonna complain

got the ring checked off the list baby

[glass tulip]

poggies

nice vault

[hollow river]

damn the helm has leech on it too

[balmy condor]

I'll trade you dagger for chest

[viscid spear]

MF got both Sylv items

[glass tulip]

there are 4

[viscid spear]

Both I want, I mean

[glass tulip]

[viscid spear]

I corrected myself

[slow marsh]

CT in ST is neutral if you don't have WFT. I finally did it

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jA6fcEEwuHwNMYuuTyXmHR

[glass tulip]

ever since you first said that I have never believed it was an ST increase lol

hurt my soul to even try

[slow marsh]

It's not about it being an ST increase

it's about it being neutral or close

[viscid spear]

Sometimes you can meme things into reality

[slow marsh]

Because having to swap talents for aoe damage is annoying AF

[glass tulip]

sounds like youre playing the wrong spec

[hollow river]

i already had the chest on

[slow marsh]

I play all three wym

[hollow river]

Wait, so talenting into CT for ST is neutral?

[slow marsh]

With obedience nadjia yes

[hollow river]

That’s cray cray

[slow marsh]

And that's including theo being crit tea

[hollow river]

Wonder if Obe Nadjia is the play for Render/KT/Fate

[slow marsh]

Any time you would play obedience in general nadjia + CT is probably better than theo

[hollow river]

I’ve never really used Obe in raid as sin besides very early on in 9.1

[slow marsh]

I've used it pretty often depending on fights

[hollow river]

I’ve just run Dashing on everything

[slow marsh]

Ye I mean can't go wrong with that

[hollow river]

I’ve got the cinders to upgrade

Maybe I’ll try it out tonight

Need to upgrade it anyway for 9.2 start

[slow marsh]

yeah

[hollow river]

I won’t be familiar at all with Flag timings

But I know the fights well enough at this point hopefully I’ll be ok

[slow marsh]

Yeah as long as you sync every other with vend you're fine

[hollow river]

Any fights in particular you’d rec Obe as good? That stand out from the rest

[slow marsh]

KT

I've always said that

[hollow river]

Oo

I can see why

[slow marsh]

You get flag roughly every downstairs if you reset on tank adds properly

[hollow river]

More Flag uptime helps aoe

[slow marsh]

and that too

[hollow river]

Also have Flag as soon as you go down every time

[slow marsh]

Basically any fight that you run CT on run obedience imo

[hollow river]

And for Vendetta when you get back up top

I just don’t bother using Flag downstairs anymore

With Dashing at least

We rotate boomie CDs for every down phase

It just annihilates the remnant

[slow marsh]

Yeah that's def good when it works lol

[hollow river]

I just stand there looking cute

[slow marsh]

We have boomies that sometimes zone out and get hit by frontal so

[hollow river]

Yeah

Or they scuff the ramp

Somehow

[slow marsh]

Feels bad when you have to push asap so you have to burn shiv

[hollow river]

Has been pretty reliable last 2 clears

[slow marsh]

Ye last few weeks we've one shot it even when it's scuffed so that's a good sign

[hollow river]

I usually end up popping shiv ~10 seconds into being down

For first one? I think

Yeah we’ve been doing well on reclears except for Fate lately

[slow marsh]

First down I always have shiv + flag + mfd to get it rolling

then boomie cleans it up

[hollow river]

Painsmith and Fate with trials is...

[slow marsh]

This group thankfully hasn't ever had issues with fate but painsmith on the other hand...

That fight is always rough I feel

[hollow river]

We were basically one shotting pain when it was all main raiders

[slow marsh]

One night we one shot our KT + Sylv then wiped on painsmith 6 times

[hollow river]

But a couple people got cut after CE

And like 3 have quit since CE

So we’ve got a lot of trials in and out lately

[slow marsh]

We're at that point too

And I say that as one of them lmao

[hollow river]

We’ve been doing the skip and like saving Fate for last

Which imo

[slow marsh]

But they been booting people they know won't work out

[hollow river]

Same

I think most of us want to push for better na rank next tier

Like 200 higher if we can

[humble ginkgo]

Why are people playing vigor

on wcl

?

I thought mfd was better

or even deeper

@hollow river pls rhelp

..

[hollow river]

What’s wrong skip

[hollow river]

You playing sin tonight?

[oak sky]

Big lazy big dumb big feelycraft

[hollow river]

Make sure to Feint on CD boys

[oak sky]

I died for this

[hollow river]

Lmao what

[glass tulip]

Agreon walked so we could run

[hollow river]

I heard he walked on water

On the PTR

[oak sky]

I actually did

[humble ginkgo]

Idk man

im just BORED

and sin might be good

but im NOT playing night fae

[hollow river]

Lmfao

[hollow river]

Just Necro n chill bby

[humble ginkgo]

Im also levelling venth

outlaw dreadblades

[hollow river]

yeah i'm actually kinda pumped about dreadblades being top dog

ngl

[humble ginkgo]

also is true 1 pf dag and 1 sylv dag or 2x sylv better? @hollow river

[oak sky]

Wat

Why would pf dagger be good

[hollow river]

mythic eon

2x

it's better than heroic sylv OH typically

next tier we replace MH with higher ilvl quick

but rn 2x sylv bis

[teal mica]

Do you really want to first global SBS on opener even tho you have master assassin?

[glass tulip]

step 1: stop playing necro

but do you mean on raid bosses?

or like in dungeons and stuff

[viscid spear]

Another miffed Sylv group

[glass tulip]

[viscid spear]

And another Mage opening an Ancient Dal portal

[glass tulip]

dalaran crater, classic

[viscid spear]

What's with Mages today, lol

[teal mica]

Yea opener on boss

[viscid spear]

Seemed pissed I didn't die

Engineer ftw

[wind dune]

Are we running mfd for raid now? havent raided for like 4+ months

[bleak sky]

yes

sbs is your first global on raid with ma

[bleak sky]

yes

[wind dune]

Just slamming on cd or do we hold for flag? like for example if you got flag in 15-20 seconds and mfd up do you save for flag?

[carmine dawn]

if mfd comes up in 12 seconds or less, hold it for flag

implying you're slamming everything on CD

[arctic walrus]

they stay hating cuz they know i was behind the tec

[wind dune]

sounds good thanks

[viscid spear]

Doing a ToP, feels like it's tyrannical AND fortified

Like all the bosses took so long to kill, I hate this place

That might be it, last boss dps

Overtimed that ToP+16 by 4 minutes, so I think they just wanted completion

[glass tulip]

weekly no leaver for vault

love to see it

[solid mica]

Theyre all too entitled cause bobby treats 'em too well

[viscid spear]

The description didn't have anything of the sort besides being listed as "Beat Timer"

Deception and lies, I guess?

[solid mica]

Its becauase they dont have an authenticator

And it wont let you add many details or messages to your group

[viscid spear]

I don't think they typed a single thing during the run

[glass tulip]

thats a default tag which means the leader hasnt 2fa'd their account I think

but also yeah if the timer was that close it could just be some lil baby dps trying their best

[viscid spear]

You get extra options for the "Goal" tab if you have the right authenticator?

[glass tulip]

you can type it yourself

before that you cant

like for pvp it lists your rating and "earn conquest" or "earn rating"

[viscid spear]

Learn something new every day

[winged ravine]

hi, is there room in the assassination party for a very sadge, recently taken behind the shed and executed feral druid to join?

that is to say, i know the playstyles are pretty similar and would like to know if assassination looks fun firstly and decent secondly with 9.2

[glass tulip]

yes and yes

sorry to hear that this is the farm that you came to live on, a half step up in raid utility in the form of cloak of shadows XD

[oak sky]

Vs roar?

Sidegrade

[winged ravine]

eh, as i understand it both frost and feral still look good in ST right? It was mostly the m+ i was concerned with, of which feral will be seeing zero of

[glass tulip]

if you want to excel in M+ I would check out sub 🤢

[winged ravine]

I know subtlety is probably going to be the move for m+ meta, but i'm clearly okay with playing non-meta to retain relatively the same playstyle

[glass tulip]

assassination is decent but sub is "meta"

but yeah otherwise pretty easy

spam rupture, keep CT up, do boss damage

[winged ravine]

speaking of CT, is it like feral PW where you spam it with 4-5 CP in AOE or specifically keep it up and finish with envenom otherwise?

[glass tulip]

its jsut an aoe bleed

so 5 CP I think lasts 12 seconds?

you can reapply it in the pandemic window (last 30% of timer)
otherwise you are applying a whole bunch of ruptures, garrotes on CD and fan of knives into envenoms on prio targets

[winged ravine]

ah, so different entirely than primal wrath

good to know

[glass tulip]

only other big difference in talents is playing subterfuge/vigor and opening with 3-4 garrotes

since it silences

[winged ravine]

i assume subt/vigor gets replaced with master assassin/deeper strat in raid?

[glass tulip]

Marked for death is the most optimal, but you can sim to be sure

[winged ravine]

woah, okay, didn't expect that to be the case lol

[glass tulip]

blindside/deeper is sim bait, dont use that except for purely ST and if you like the playstyle

[winged ravine]

time to hit dummies and sim for 10 years and figure this thing out

thanks for your help!

[glass tulip]

for raid stuff we actually went over a whole bunch of it this morning in #940730247274442822

[winged ravine]

ooh

i like a good log review, i'll check it out 🙂

[bleak sky]

with this damage everything will feel like tyrannical AND fort honestly

the friendos over there gotta pump harder

[viscid spear]

All the bosses looked like that

[glass tulip]

was that an eleshaman?

[viscid spear]

Except Xav because I kept getting thrown down

[glass tulip]

I like to troll on Xav and pretend its real pvp

[viscid spear]

Yeah, it was

[glass tulip]

one time I kicked our mage, put him in a full kidney and vanish ambushed him

[viscid spear]

I got chained down with him both times

First time I goof'd and went ham on his elemental

[glass tulip]

meanwhile our other 3 players were struggling to kill a banner and got slapped by the frontal lol

[spice spire]

Ash really racking up their quarterly review

Attacking elemental

[viscid spear]

Damn thing was stacked right on him, didn't notice until it started sauntering back towards the boss' ledge

[wind dune]

https://gyazo.com/a986b7b15dc5da41b6226119e41d3df1 this was a 21 sd first boss.. i knew i was in for a bad run

thats the healer almost beating my 2 dps

[hollow river]

[bleak sky]

[zinc frost]

Mage fall asleep?

[bleak sky]

those are some boosted players

[glass tulip]

2400 is cheap these days

[wind dune]

im 2524 save me.

its the new 2400

being gone for a big break and coming back has been hell pugging lmao

[glass tulip]

[wind dune]

the kicker? we wouldve timed but the tank's route was .23% off

LMAO

[viscid spear]

Doing the holiday boss on all my lvl 50+ characters and I'm running into problems remembering how to play most of them, lol

Like my BM Hunter, no idea wth I'm doing

I only drop in on the hunter because I love my name/title, Irishcoffee the Wakener and all her coffee-related pets

[hollow river]

same

but you can basically stand there a melee/autoshot it lmao

[gusty mirage]

if it makes you feel better, its worse at 2600

[bleak sky]

don't lie to them it's fine

[gusty mirage]

[spice spire]

Just wait until you find minalbasap

It’s a bad time

[gusty mirage]

is it worse than 2700 io mages doing 7.6k overall?

[spice spire]

Bro get quakenboots at 2700 she belongs there

Bet they snap barriers too

[gusty mirage]

no they just don't use it

or alter

[spice spire]

[gusty mirage]

https://tenor.com/view/bane-dark-darkness-batman-dark-knight-gif-18217991

[bleak sky]

slapping fools left and right

[spice spire]

You can slap me papi

[bleak sky]

[viscid spear]

[wind dune]

[arctic walrus]

Hello. I am Vellaena. I play for the Consequence guild on Stormrage Alliance. I am here today to ask a favor of the community. If you are in the European region, whose reset date is today. Please, do not step into the Sanctum of Domination raid zone. I implore you to stay away. Let me keep my parses. And everyone walks away.

[balmy condor]

alliance L

[bleak sky]

holy shit rank 1 sylv

gz vel

[balmy condor]

also no shot

yoppa is getting double KA

[arctic walrus]

oh no

yoppa

[gusty mirage]

weird

[arctic walrus]

old news bud why u cappin

[gusty mirage]

I don't see you there

I also may or may not have installed the chrome plugins that removed external parses

[bleak sky]

oh didnt even see lmao

gz anyway vel

big fat parses

[arctic walrus]

jdoesn't matter

fuck sheeq

bozo

cringe

[gusty mirage]

TRUE

guy can't even external whore properly

what a shitter

[arctic walrus]

spread the word that r3 on soulrender is 116 points

@ khira or whoever the fuck is

[gusty mirage]

bro khira doesn't give a fuck lmao

just assumes blizz will remove externals

made a column for it, job's done

[arctic walrus]

okay but mathematically

why is a r3

116

how is the point system not linear

[spice spire]

Double KA

[glass tulip]

I dont see you there

[balmy condor]

he's 你妈妈你妈妈 at the top there

[gusty mirage]

ye bro

its clear as day

wtf

[arctic walrus]

Don’t do me like wowhead

[oak sky]

i used to be on that list but my clean parse got replaced with a simp one

[gusty mirage]

did you feint tho?

[brazen zodiac]

how the fuck do u get 79 externals

am i being pranked by the gamers

[bleak sky]

check the log

it's full simp raid

[brazen zodiac]

thats kinda based

[fleet anchor]

Really nuts they won't even put in a filter. Can filter for any spell IDs but can't filter for externals count without a Chrome addon... 🤔 it's like full-on stubbornness at this point feels like

[dreamy cloud]

Heya, just found the server. Looking for 9.2 sims and predictions for best Cov and stuff since I couldnt find much online is everyone still waiting on finalizations for tier set and leggos?

[frozen zenith]

go to the 9.2 thread & check pins

[balmy condor]

lots of wowhead content coming on that stuff soon as well if you don't wanna dig through my spreadsheets

[dreamy cloud]

Happy to dig through em haha thanks guys!

[round harbor]

hi

[vestal wren]

hi

[brazen zodiac]

hi

[empty hinge]

hi

[rotund oak]

hi

[strange python]

hi

[left plaza]

hi

[whole mason]

hi

[burnt latch]

any shot u could link this pluging

[versed mica]

guys i cant believe blizzard hates druids they nerf them every patch

[glass tulip]

You can take out all externals but yeah no filter is sadge

[vestal wren]

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/external-remover/ljbijnfoanpelpooaekjelcknbiheocd

[limber lion]

This does not work for me

I used a different one personally because EU ISO qwerty keyboards don't really have the / button and it's not configurable

[vestal wren]

scath linked it in #916546791472783371, i assumed it works

[vestal wren]

found out how it works, you need to press \ to remove externals form the page.

this one seems to do it without requiring extra key presses:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/wcl-ranked-buff-remover/mgmiagjlgdnignaaeblnffinlngmbnef/related

but that one seems to only work on the boss sub pages, not the general ranking page.
so on https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/28/#boss=2423
and not on https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/28/

[violet hemlock]

is there a way to sim like pi and kindred affinity

[vestal wren]

yes, they are external buffs:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/BuffsAndDebuffs#external-buffs

there are spreadsheets with pre run sims pinned in #wow-general or #subtlety-faq too

[keen plaza]

Should i craft Obedience Lego for 9.2 or Dashing is ok to start the patch with it since after 4 tier pieces we go NF?

[pseudo hamlet]

If I were you I wouldn't craft anything yet to be honest.

[limber lion]

Yes, just like I said earlier... lol

[pseudo hamlet]

Pretty sure Dashing will be good enough to start the patch with.
9.2 isn't yet implemented, there can still be some changes.

[limber lion]

But yes, this is the one I use and it works well!

[vestal wren]

ups, missed the message

[dark token]

lol these ranks look much different

https://i.imgur.com/GXq5kKS.png

amazing how many buffs sin has

[arctic walrus]

Turn that shit back on 🤨

[limber lion]

[arctic walrus]

I’m down half a mil I didn’t get to where I am as a handout

[dark token]

if everyone installs this addon no one will see those parse buyers

[limber lion]

everyone makes dumb decisions

I bought a 246 phial for 3m for that juicy 76 dps

In other news, I was blessed by the vault today

My streak ended with Tarragrue

Every choice was trash still, but at least I don't have to complain about getting 6 tarra necks/wrists every week

[arctic walrus]

Still no phial

🙂

2 tiers

[dark token]

i got stygia from vault 4 weeks in a row

where veinrippers

[limber lion]

didn't you get a shitty phial from vault once?

I've never even seen a phial in my vault on any of my characters

[dark token]

how did you buy a 246 phial?

running it over and over with a group?

[limber lion]

by buying leather stack boost groups

Or trinket-stack to be more specific

Had to do around 15 runs with a full group iirc

[dark token]

ah yeah i just did 10 pfs a week until i got it took 2-3 weeks i think

[limber lion]

That's around 75+ that I would have done solo

[dark token]

but im poor https://i.imgur.com/ugHrCEf.png

[limber lion]

Yeh I'm not about that life

[dark token]

boosting communities done :(

[limber lion]

I did like 20 by myself but then just decided to boost it while I was working

[arctic walrus]

Not like you grind alts tho

[limber lion]

ceveriontwo and my druid are giga

[glass tulip]

But what about Maeveythree

Inb4 Ceverionsix is the best geared bucket character in 9.2

[arctic walrus]

But yeah I mean almost all of my alts get bis trinket first vault it’s more pain on just the rogue

[limber lion]

rip

[lethal jacinth]

guys, is it worth using crimson tempest on single target outside shiv windows? or is it just a dps loss

?

[arctic walrus]

What is your Legendary of choice

[lethal jacinth]

i use zoldyck

[limber lion]

Outside of Shiv windows, yes

[lethal jacinth]

okay, thank you:)

[hollow river]

Apparently CT can be neutral to spec into for pure ST compared to EP MFD if you run Obedience

[dark token]

its only a big loss if you run dashing scoundrel ye

[hollow river]

Yeah, I thought it was just neutral to cast it outside of shiv if spec’d into it already

Didn’t know it had gotten so close to PB

[arctic walrus]

Enjoy it while it lasts

It’s a frost thing

[hollow river]

I didn’t have time to get it all set up before raid last night

Going to try it out on render/Fate/kt next week

[arctic walrus]

Or just run dashing

[hollow river]

I’m getting a little bored Vel

[dark token]

dashing CT still good on aoe bosses

[hollow river]

Yeah I run CT on those bosses obviously

[limber lion]

Don't think it's neutral to spec into

PB still 0.5% ahead for my profile and I'm pretty much bis except dagger/252 phial

[hollow river]

Iceblades simmed it yesterday

[limber lion]

Iceblades

[hollow river]

I’m sure the difference varies a bit depending on gear profiles etc

He also simmed a lot of stuff at once so maybe it broke raidbots

[arctic walrus]

Except therefore not bis

[hollow river]

But neither are you

[arctic walrus]

Damn kinda crazy how u stopped playing for a year and ur still only 1 item behind me 😝

[limber lion]

good thing I can sim a bis profile by just copypasting the dagger and adding ,ilevel=252 after my trinket string

[limber lion]

a year

[spice spire]

Literally a decade without you, Cev

[hollow river]

But I still think there’s something to be said for getting extra Flag casts on aoe heavy fights

[limber lion]

That's not what the sim is though

It's pure single target

[hollow river]

Or even having Flag for every down phase 100% because atm with our timings I don’t

[limber lion]

Dashing vs Obedience comes down to fight length only pretty muich

Dashing gives great value in AoE

Everything around you is poisoned, those poisons crit and you get energy from those poisons

[hollow river]

Sure but if Obe+CT is ~neutral ST you can basically defer that it’s going to be more aoe

[limber lion]

?

wat

that's not how that works

[hollow river]

I mean CT is more aoe damage and so is Oedience

[limber lion]

"sure if arms warrior is good in aoe, you can defer that it's good in aoe as well"

Obedience is not more aoe damage

[hollow river]

Don’t we already know that

???

How isn’t it

[limber lion]

Literally comes down to fight length

Nothing else

[hollow river]

Dashing is great aoe but we don’t run it in aoe environments like m+ where there’s a lot of ST too

[limber lion]

Because Obedience is superior in M+

[hollow river]

Sure and on all those fights I’d also get extra Flag

[limber lion]

Where the environment is full of cleave, aoe, single target and prio damage

It's not either or

It's not "full aoe"

or "full st"

[hollow river]

I didn’t say it was

[limber lion]

Obedience is better for most AoE fights, but if a fight length is piss, Dashing beats it

[hollow river]

These fights aren’t either or as well

[limber lion]

It's not "Obedience is better, period".

[hollow river]

I mean I said above

[dark token]

that 1 item can take 10 weeks tho

[hollow river]

Something to be said about having more Flag casts on those aoe fights

Literally

[limber lion]

Yes

[dark token]

also i just go zoldyck in m+

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[limber lion]

But you literally said "Obedience is better in aoe, don't we know that already"

But yeh anyways

[hollow river]

But I still think there’s something to be said for getting extra Flag casts on aoe heavy fights

Word for word

So like

????

[limber lion]

wat

literally

[hollow river]

Sure

[limber lion]

It's like saying one dumb thing and then following it up with something else

[hollow river]

Lmfao

Ok buddy

Sure

Whatever you say

[limber lion]

Also, what makes you think you get an extra flag cast on AoE heavy fights

Compared to ST

We literally get 25-29 stacks everytime with Flagellation with MFD

you'd have to use 20 flagellations to get an extra one off if you got 30 stacks everytime

[hollow river]

Because they are long fights?

[limber lion]

20 flags is literally 20+ minutes

[hollow river]

And I’ve checked the timers?

[limber lion]

the raid doesn't have fights that last 20 minutes

Also AoE does not necessarily mean more stacks

[hollow river]

Sure

Fok can troll hard

[limber lion]

yeh

[hollow river]

But like KT for example

I’m getting Flag pretty late on every Remnant phase, which our boomkins decimate

So I’m holding and lining with Vendetta when we go back up

Obedience would alleviate this issue for me

[limber lion]

Yeh, like said previously

[hollow river]

And net me an extra cast 100%

[limber lion]

Fight length is what matters, nothing else

Not being aoe, st or using ct

KT is a good example of a fight where you might want to try Obedience vs Dashing

taking into account your timers and damage

If you're holding damage inside Remnant already without Flag, there's not much point slamming it there either

But neither is it really useful slamming it on KT when he's at 5% hp

But yeh

[hollow river]

Yeah I mean i guess we can agree on the obedience thing, just having free vers and no extra cast is pointless in comparison

Didn’t mean for it to come out as otherwise on that note

[limber lion]

Yeh, Obedience gains strength on a patchwork fight because you get to use flag on cooldown and get several uses out of it

but it's not a comparison of st vs aoe

[hollow river]

But the CT thing idk

[limber lion]

because the stacks are almost the same with MFD

But yeh, I like Obedience on some fights as well

[hollow river]

Also I don’t get this?

What did you mean exactly

[limber lion]

In single target you get 25-30 stacks when using Flag with MFD

[hollow river]

Raid fights needing to be 20+ minutes? This makes no sense to me

Right

[limber lion]

In AoE, theoretically you can get 30 stacks everytime

not really, but in theory

[hollow river]

Sure

[limber lion]

Meaning you can save, let's say, 3 seconds each time

You'd have to use Flagellation 20 times

to get an extra cast off

by saving 3 seconds everytime

20x3 = 60s

Flag has a one minute cooldown

[hollow river]

But if flag is roughly a 1 minute CD instead of 1.30 you get an extra cast on a lot of fight lengths ye?

[arctic walrus]

Conversations like these make you wish you were gone for a year 🤣

[limber lion]

Yes, but this is not a comparison of Obedience vs no Obedience

this is a comparison of your

"Obedience allows for more casts in aoe than st"

Of course you get more casts with Obedience compared to not playing Obedience

But that's the entire niche of the legendary

[hollow river]

I never meant aoe=more casts

That’s a misunderstanding, I meant the aoe fights in the raid do. At least, for me

[limber lion]

I still don't understand that logic

How do the aoe fights in the raid allow for more casts?

Or are you again comparing Obedience vs Dashing?

You get more casts with Obedience regardless of it being aoe or not.

[hollow river]

^yeah ig

[limber lion]

You get more casts in single target already

That's why Obedience is decent great on Guardian, if you're rocking a good 4:30 fight length

[hollow river]

Depends on timer tho ye?

[limber lion]

Fight length, yes

Like I've said.

Obedience is very, very reliant on fight length/timers.

It's great in m+ where you can slam Flag on cooldown everywhere without worry

And where you get more prio damage via Obedience

[agile geode]

9 february still no dagger

trying from july

no joke

lul

[hollow river]

Ig my thought process was that if you can get CT to sim close in ST anyway, it wouldn’t be bad to run diff leggo on fights where you’re losing some envenom uptime/casts to the aoe anyway. Extra Flag etc. idk

[limber lion]

Yeah, that's a weird train of thought not gonna lie

because CT is already bis in 2+ targets by default

it being neutral in single doesn't really change much in terms of aoe value, because it's already super strong in aoe

regardless of what legendary you play

it's the best choice with dashing, obedience and tiny toxic blade

[hollow river]

I don’t mean comparing CT and PB

But yeah, idk

[limber lion]

You can play without a legendary and CT pulls ahead of PB every time in aoe

But yeh we're chill

I would recommend playing around with Obedience though in any and all fights

[hollow river]

Yeah that’s not what I meant to compare

[limber lion]

Raid dps is all over the place, so some guild groups will see more value from Obedience than others

And depending on the boss

[hollow river]

Yeah it’s getting very hard to predict fight length for certain fights, like Guardian for example

For me, I mean

[limber lion]

Yeh, you can just sim something like 4 minutes to get a rough estimate because it includes 20% variance both ways

so it sims everything between ~3-5 minutes

[hollow river]

Even this late into farm, our fight lengths have always been pretty bad. Inconsistent, but somewhat predictable.

[limber lion]

But yeh

Anything can happen, one dude dying very early on will tank the overall dps quite a bit

[hollow river]

But now we have so many trials in and out that our timers just jump around heavily

Last nights Guardian was 4:33 when I think our PB before that was never under 5:10-5:15

So Obedience would’ve been the play I think, or holding my 3rd Flag for Vendetta

[alpine latch]

I assume it has something to do with FoK in AoE packs generating more CP than Mutilate? That's my assumption, at least.

[limber lion]

Might want to read up on the discussion.

But yeh, no. Doesn't really work like that :P

[alpine latch]

Yeah, I came in mid-convo and I'm not entirely awake 🙂

Plus, well, I'm an idiot

So I got that going for me, which is nice

[limber lion]

One of us

[alpine latch]

I'm a little sad I have to run Zoldyck's next patch. I've avoided it for so long, lol

[alpine latch]

This is where I'm at too. My guild is 3/10M but we'll wipe on Eye like 8 times and then absolutely smash it on the kill. We're reliant on the pugs who are filling out our 20-man to learn the fight until we kill it 😦

[limber lion]

Why do you have to run it exactly?

[alpine latch]

For m+

And maybe for prog, if there's any sort of execute-specific fight

[limber lion]

I don't think so

You should just play Dusk

[alpine latch]

You don't think for m+? Or for prog?

[limber lion]

Either honestly

[whole mason]

maybe 5#

[alpine latch]

Oh shit, really?

[whole mason]

4boss, 50% rush something

[spice spire]

The sims don’t have Zoldyck as best for either

[alpine latch]

Oh shit

[limber lion]

Zoldyck is bad

[alpine latch]

I haven't looked at them in a while. I better catch up

[whole mason]

that boss fight has no stress before 50%

[spice spire]

Turns out 1 minute vendetta very POGGERS

[alpine latch]

Who'da thought that 1-minute CD on our best cooldown is legit?

[gusty mirage]

You’re very poggers

[slow marsh]

No you

[slow marsh]

True obedience is pretty nice

[spice spire]

On jah I’ll kiss you on the mouth if you sass me again

[gusty mirage]

[alpine latch]

Go on ...

[spice spire]

[slow marsh]

[hollow river]

I was actually almost sorta kinda hoping Zoldycks would be good for at least one fight, like how you could run it for Sire p3 prog

[strange python]

Just demand faeries and autumn too

I'm curious how low you can get vend

[hollow river]

You get 20s CDR from faeries right? I’m not familiar with autumn

But could be 35-40s Vendettas with Faeries, I think?

[strange python]

I think it depends on how much the priest casts, right? It usually wound up being 20s for me, but dunno if that changes

But 40 second vend with it's uptime is kinda gross

[sturdy merlin]

Hello, i ran a patchwerk sim with M+ talents and i was surprised to see ambush being used during subterfuge. I thought ambush was only used with blindside procs

[bleak sky]

ambush good when talented into subterfuge

[sturdy merlin]

I thought mut was better because it could make more cp and apply poisons more frequently, is ambush good only because of the damage it does ?

[bleak sky]

slightly more damage yeah

[slow marsh]

more gear more damage, it's currently just a slight gain but next patch will be more defined so just get used to it

[sturdy merlin]

👍🏻 good to know, thanks

[brazen zodiac]

ambush go boom

[echo island]

Nadia or Theothar for ST in Raid?