assassination

[lofty shell]

dang lashing scars op

forgot it in a prior sim and couldnt believe necro simmed higher :L

[carmine token]

At what point of managing dots on targets in m+ , is it not worth bothering with s&d

4 targets?

[stoic needle]

5+ i believe

[manic haven]

Is vigor seen as easier to play for some people in raid or are they just running it for preference? Haven't seen many sims where its ahead of DS yet its on a lot of logs.

[limber lion]

Yeh, mostly a preference thing. It also sims better on really short fights, or if you're playing something else than Venthyr with low haste levels.

A lot of people who get fed PI's use it as well.

[plain thistle]

dont forget about EP, most who runs vigors runs with EP and not blindside

[daring plover]

using vigor with pi

[limber lion]

They use EP mainly for PI but EP and Vigor walk hand in hand.

[plain thistle]

and its better than blindside+DS for multiple targets

which happens a lot in this raid

[vagrant bison]

if i open with an empowered garrote, is it worth to cast mutilate and garrote again to extend it?

[drifting cloud]

no

[vagrant bison]

so garrote and double mutilate?

[limber lion]

Gar - Muti - Snd

[vagrant bison]

if snd is up already?

[limber lion]

Then just gar - muti (- muti) - rup

[oak sapphire]

doomblade built on shoulders im guessing?

[ancient kraken]

hands

[oak sapphire]

ty

[rocky ruin]

If Theotar break the stealth are using nadja then for m+ or theotar with one potency?

[stoic needle]

you should be using theotar with wasteland propriety

sin conduits suck

[oak sapphire]

does phial count as a dot towards envenom damage?

[shy dust]

No

[odd hazel]

How many enemies do you usually apply CT on?

[limber lion]

1

[timber basalt]

how much better is outlaw in m+ compared to sin?

[carmine token]

what lvl of m+ are you referring to?

This is usually where I go to compare specs, but it's just one point of data https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25#class=Rogue

[limber lion]

In DPS they are pretty similar

But Outlaw just has more utility and tools.

[frail fossil]

on huntsman mythic, my guild hero second dog, should i be holding vendetta for it ? i guess not but i wanna make sure

why they even heroing second dog

[subtle tundra]

i also think that unless youre an amazing outlaw, assa does more damage

[limber lion]

[subtle tundra]

as outlaw has a much higher skill ceiling

[shy dust]

To skip 2nd add

[drifting cloud]

so you only get 1 set of adds

[limber lion]

Don't hold cds, you'll be pumping even without cds during lust.

[timber basalt]

I'm doing 18s on main atm

[frail fossil]

gonna do one last reclear as OL and then back to assa jail

[frail fossil]

yeah what i thought

[timber basalt]

so I guess kinda 15-17 range eventually

[frail fossil]

just wanted to make sure

[limber lion]

Yeh fo sho

[drifting cloud]

well depends when exactly the lust is right

since you only gonna get 2 vendettas

and you wanna use 2nd one for dmg amp?

[limber lion]

As long as you don't miss out on a cast, anything is fine.

[frail fossil]

ah the vulnerability part ?

so if i use on second dog, i can get it back for last phase ?

[limber lion]

Not necessarily.

[drifting cloud]

I dont know, my guild doesnt do it, just check last weeks kill

you dummy

[limber lion]

Depends on your group and dps and whatnot

[frail fossil]

last kill was 3:38

[limber lion]

When does Barghast spawn?

Because you want at least 20-25s of spare time near the end.

[frail fossil]

timewarp was casted at 53sec into the fight

so on barghast spawn

[limber lion]

Ah well that honestly might line up pretty well

You should probably hold then

Are you necro?

[frail fossil]

yes

[limber lion]

Flag should still be cast on cd, but Vend/Vanish hold

Aigh no worries there then

[frail fossil]

so i have 30sec ish to use vendetta at the end

that's quite risky tho but yeah it's prolly worth it

[limber lion]

That's fine yeah. As long as you don't lose out on it.

If you lose like 10s then it's omega yikes

[frail fossil]

yeah

should i play CT + subt ?

[limber lion]

It does sim better in 2T, depends on how long the big boy at the end lives for.

[drifting cloud]

oh my guild did 2 heals lust on pull this week apparently which also skipped 2nd set of adds

wonder how close it was

[frail fossil]

cuz i can use first subt on first dog

then vanish for second with vendetta

[limber lion]

Yeah that's what I would do.

[willow inlet]

Do you guys run outlaw for SLG mythic?

[limber lion]

Yes.

[drifting cloud]

nope

[frail fossil]

yes

[willow inlet]

Thanks

[limber lion]

I play EP/Subt/MFD/CT on Huntsman

[shy dust]

For prog it would be better

[limber lion]

But there's people playing full ST on it as well

Probably people who can't be bothered to swap talents

lul

[frail fossil]

would u hold the second vanish for vendetta ? or should i try getting 2 subt garrote on the third dog and huntsman

cuz when vendetta will be up again dog will probably be dead

or close to it

[uneven spear]

!ambush

[prisma monolith]

Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message

[daring plover]

vend p4

😉

[subtle tundra]

we once had a hc hunstman kill where boss didnt get last phase damage increase

it was weird

[daring plover]

if <4min

[limber lion]

That's a tough one.

I would probably hold because the vulnerability + vendetta is a huge combo.

[frail fossil]

yes i think it's 100% more dmg if i'm not wrong + vendetta

so it outweight having a second target

[vital haven]

@shy dust what did you say the range of iqd was?

[limber lion]

Yeh it's 100%

[frail fossil]

i would just drop it a bit before dog dies

[limber lion]

It's massive.

[frail fossil]

so i can start mutilating

as soon as debuff is up

[limber lion]

As long as you cast it early enough

Yeah exactly

Empowered garrote lasts for around 23-24 seconds.

[shy dust]

For heal I think it’s 100yd

[vital haven]

ty

[drifting cloud]

ez outrange

[frail fossil]

i'm so stupid to have passed on a 226 iqd man

[limber lion]

God I wish I had a 226 IQD

[gloomy fern]

when is huntsman in vuln anyway what %

[limber lion]

Makes me wet thinking about it.

[frail fossil]

it's fine i'll get it in vault again

[shy dust]

Peasants

Not having BiS trinket

[gloomy fern]

but i mean the best thing to do on huntsman is mutilating the shades

biggest dips

[frail fossil]

ye

no need to drop other dots just mutilate them ?

[gloomy fern]

muti low cp rupture go to next

[limber lion]

Yeh, free gar on one, low rup on one and then just muti/CT/Env

[frail fossil]

kk

i cannot fail this

[gloomy fern]

ok i did 2 dos no iqd i give up

[frail fossil]

i'm fairly confident in assa's ST but like multi dotting a bit less

[gloomy fern]

not worth

[limber lion]

Ez 99

[frail fossil]

i just want to show guild i'm not an outlaw otp and i can play assa competitively

but i may be an outlaw otp deep inside

[limber lion]

I was the first one to do 10k+ dps on HC Huntsman

And now there's 6.

:''(

[frail fossil]

wait does sudden fracture sims better than the shiv conduit ?

[limber lion]

Ye I think you'll be fine.

[lofty shell]

for me it does

[shy dust]

Maybe you are an outlaw one trick

But

[limber lion]

Depends on your stats/gear

[shy dust]

You can get it beat out of you

[frail fossil]

i like being a pirate man it's not my fault$

[drifting cloud]

just send fracture flower

[shy dust]

You gonna like being bench for next tier then

Unless you learn how to afk and press a button every 2 seconds

[frail fossil]

nah i'm playing assa next tier

like for sure

[drifting cloud]

[limber lion]

Good.

[frail fossil]

i rather assa than bench pov

[limber lion]

You'll fall in love with it once you play it for a tier

[lofty shell]

maybe 9.1 will make sub great again

[limber lion]

Then you'll never switch back

[frail fossil]

i'd be fine with that

[shy dust]

No you won’t

Assa is a dogshit spec to play

But it has good numbers so

[limber lion]

High hopes, seeing how it's been a garbo spec for 3 years.

[lofty shell]

sad

[frail fossil]

i mean if sudde nfracture sims better for me

then the diff with venthyr will be even smaller

[lofty shell]

its gonna be pretty close tho

i simmed the diff to venthyr earlier it was pretty close actually

[limber lion]

The difference between Venthyr and Necro is already quite small on ST

[lofty shell]

without lashing scars necro > venthyr

[limber lion]

And Necro wins automatically when you introduce any amount of adds

[frail fossil]

i think necro is the move

just sayin

[limber lion]

Yeh it definitely is

Like 100%

[frail fossil]

unless u play sub

[lofty shell]

heirmir seems pretty op

[frail fossil]

then venthyr is the move if u play sub

[lofty shell]

but i mean flag is pretty nice atm

[frail fossil]

cuz sbs is rly not that good for sub

[limber lion]

I just want to do a reclear or two as Venthyr first

Before swapping out.

[lofty shell]

sbs just feels a bit gimped in ST but still a cheap ass builder

[drifting cloud]

sbs owns

dont have to get a phd in kill timers

[frail fossil]

sbs is good

[shy dust]

[drifting cloud]

and I think the sim for me is like 80 dps

[lofty shell]

50 dps more for venthyr for me cuz of lashing

[frail fossil]

alright venth is like 101 dps ahead of necro https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gXTZzLBKjs2BpiEaFpaJ1E

i would almost 7k sim if i was venthyr

[limber lion]

You would if you hadn't passed up that IQD 😄

[frail fossil]

[drifting cloud]

not even 7k with wft smh

[frail fossil]

it's fine i'm getting iqd next vault

100%

or i'll farm dos keys lol

[limber lion]

I haven't done a single m+ this week

I've been in 3 groups

All depletes

Or ragequits

[frail fossil]

did my 4 keys on monk and rogue

[uneven plume]

Yah o feel you

[frail fossil]

so i have 2 options

[lofty shell]

after getting phial my loot luck was pretty insane

[frail fossil]

i have 1 mythic option too but i dont think i can get any upgrades from it

[uneven plume]

And people still complain why they don’t get invited to 15s with 1400 io

[lofty shell]

1st dos iqd and 1st spire got the neck

[uneven plume]

[carmine token]

How long does an add need to be up to be worth dotting him twice? Thinking bargast shades, like initial dots on both if they are both pulled and then just burn to the ground and not worry about reapplying dots? Is there a drop off where if the mob has 10% health or less its better to just envenom

[frail fossil]

imagine killing bosses that give 233 loot

[drifting cloud]

imaging looting slg trinket now im gonna have to give sire away if I ever get it

cursed by 233!

[frail fossil]

[shy dust]

TRUE

I have dreaded 233 pieces

The slg trinket and ring

[drifting cloud]

almost as cursed as r3 on slg being a 97

[shy dust]

Too many outlaw one tricks

Need to be purged

[stoic needle]

you would if you crafted doomblade hands

[frail fossil]

no

i would not

i would if i had slg shoulders

[stoic needle]

just get slg shoulders 5head

[frail fossil]

yeah listen notgoing so well rn

[stoic needle]

have you still not killed slg???

[balmy condor]

They’ve become friends

It’s a redemption arc

[junior pulsar]

Do you use Crimson Tempest ST? cant remember if I asked that 😄

[balmy condor]

Yes, maintain outside of shiv

[junior pulsar]

Awesome

[frail fossil]

next week 100%

i'm just in bench pov today

[balmy condor]

Fleur le bénch

[frail fossil]

fleur du bench

[lone lantern]

wait

[frail fossil]

next week i might get sire and slg kill tho

[lone lantern]

crimson tempest on sT?

[balmy condor]

Fleur du leek muh natz

[upbeat geode]

!opener

[lone lantern]

how does that makes sense?

[frail fossil]

yes

[balmy condor]

Ct does more than envenom

[frail fossil]

it does more dmg than a envenom

[balmy condor]

Therefore good

[lone lantern]

damm

[frail fossil]

no one saw that

[balmy condor]

So we maintain it

[lone lantern]

weird asf XD

[balmy condor]

It’s actually scary close to PB in venthyr sims as well

For single target

[frail fossil]

maintaining a 12sec dot

does CT has a pandemic ?

[balmy condor]

Like within 1% close

[balmy condor]

Yep

[upbeat geode]

CT will need to do more dmg than Envenom + the dot ticks + posion bomb

[balmy condor]

It’s close

[frail fossil]

wouldn't it be a bit lower if u play doomblade ? since u cast evisc less

[balmy condor]

Yeh

But with like zoldyck on sire prog

[frail fossil]

zoldyck tho CT might be the move

[balmy condor]

People have floated the idea that CT for sire prog is actually the move

[dull cloak]

what about hidden blades

[lone lantern]

yeah i had not tought about the interaction with zoldick

[balmy condor]

Lul no

[limber lion]

Not sure what I wanna use on Sire :''(

[frail fossil]

hidden blades is so bad

[balmy condor]

It’s like

Not bad

[shut pollen]

that makes me think that either pb is undertuned or ct is overtuned. Probably the first

[balmy condor]

Just Not useful either

[balmy condor]

Mix of both

[upbeat geode]

@balmy condor do you know if its better to open with ambush or muti? ive seen top parses open with both

[shy dust]

I mean it’s an aoe row

[balmy condor]

!mut

[prisma monolith]

Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.

[shy dust]

None are supposed to be particularly good for st

[gloomy fern]

krajll fucking padder

[upbeat geode]

ty

[balmy condor]

Aoe finisher > single target finisher

[shy dust]

Reminds me of mages

Complaining about conflag

Not being too useful on st

Like no shit it’s an aoe row

[alpine garden]

Does anyone know how I sim an item at a higher ilevel on raidbots?

[balmy condor]

You can gear compare

But you most likely want to test for valor upgrades

In which case droptimizer at 220 would do that

[alpine garden]

Ahha, thanks!

[sick scarab]

question .. it is worth using IQD 220 over Memory of past Sins 226 ?

[shy dust]

Sim it

[sick scarab]

memory sims better so..

[shy dust]

Then probably use memory

Could sim with crit enchants to see if that boosts Iqd if your crit and haste stat are close

[shadow helm]

infexious rain

[marble barn]

!rotation

[drifting whale]

yay MarcelianOnline

now

[grave dock]

pooling question that occurred to me when hearing some people talk about vendetta/shiv.

it seems like the consensus is pool as normal for envenom, but never pool inside vendetta. isn't it better to still pool for the majority of vendetta and then start spamming in the last, say, 4-5 globals to catch up? I understand that the idea is to obviously fit as many globals inside vendetta as possible. but unless i'm missing something, the energy gained inside vendetta is not going to change if you spam or pool early on. so it seems like you might as well pool early in vendetta, then dump all your energy in the last few globals to catch up. you won't lose a cast of something inside vend, and you enjoy the benefits of higher envenom/EP (if you're running it) uptime early in vendetta

[royal lantern]

pooling is not a big deal

you dont even do it really anymore

[cold sparrow]

Quick question about holding CDs:
I should not hold Shiv, unless Vendetta is almost coming up right? And I rather hold Sepsis for Shiv instead the other way round?

[balmy condor]

yes to shiv/vend, and you don't do anything special with shiv/sepsis

if sepsis is up, you would sepsis first, then shiv

but you don't hold either for the lineup

[cold sparrow]

Oh ok, I always thought Sepsis > Shiv so that every single tick does more dmg.

ty!

[balmy condor]

yeah you do

[woven ruin]

For those doing heroic raiding, are you going assassin or outlaw for sire?

[balmy condor]

you just don't hold it

[cold sparrow]

thank you!

[royal lantern]

its heroic mate, you go whatever you want

[carmine token]

Whichever youre better at

[royal lantern]

(tbh, the same is also true for most stuff on mythic, but people dont belive that)

[woven ruin]

lol, i like that answer. thx

[stoic needle]

first steps envenom

[balmy condor]

only 244k

[stoic needle]

oh shut up whisispyur

[balmy condor]

hey

that's whysysypsyrpysyr to you

[royal lantern]

whyspspspspspspspspspsper

[plain thistle]

[spice spire]

whyspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspspr

[royal lantern]

he is a catboi, so he does react too it

[fallen arch]

😂

That’s good

[grave dock]

that's sort of a non answer either way. obviously it's a small optimization, but optimizing is still good for those interested

[wary ice]

you dont need to pool for vendetta; it generates energy on cast.

[grave dock]

that's not what I asked

it's about pooling during vendetta

[wary ice]

oh sorry

[grave dock]

np

just clarifying

[wary ice]

you dont need to pool duringvendetta; it generates energy on cast.

[grave dock]

er

[wary ice]

the point of pooling is to move resources into sections of your rotation where you're doing higher damage

ie: shiv and vendetta

[grave dock]

you should read what I wrote again!

I understand that

[vagrant bison]

oh man, i haven't noticed the energy gain from vendetta in the tooltip 😂

[frosty cedar]

hey can I cloak consume on hungering? it still seems to giga chunk me at the end of the cast

[wary ice]

You have to eat at least one

[dawn ivy]

consume is 6 seconds long, cloak is 5

so youll get hit by it once

[frosty cedar]

okay got you

so I eat first tick of dmg

[dawn ivy]

or at least once, im not sure how fast the interval is

[agile ledge]

Depends if its worth it. Can you outdps the health regen? Also, if you get the circle right after (forget the name) you might just be dead.

[wary ice]

pooling in vendetta is less casts of muti -> less poison apps/cp gen/blinds ide proc -> etc etc

[grave dock]

but it isn't

only if you have leftover energy/CP at the very end

[wary ice]

No it is.

[grave dock]

how though?

you don't gain more energy/CP spamming

[wary ice]

You cant hit a target you dont shoot at

If you actively choose to not mutilate

you will never get bs proc

[grave dock]

ok that's just not how this works

[wary ice]

But it is

[grave dock]

you will get a static amount of energy over 20 seconds inside vendetta

regardless of whether you pool for envenom or not

[wary ice]

Aight bro

You found the secret my b

[grave dock]

perhaps I am not explaining this well

[wary ice]

NAh you're just wrong and dont want to listen to it 🤷‍♀️

[grave dock]

ok but your explanation doesn't make any sense

if you can explain why spamming in the first 10 seconds instead of pooling will lead to more casts, i'm all ears

[agile ledge]

Im guessing you dont want to pool right before vendetta because you're probably going to overcap on energy.

[grave dock]

ugh

this is not about pooling before vend!

[agile ledge]

Dont get pissy at me dude, you're the one asking for clarification.

[grave dock]

it's a question about pooling versus pressing envenom right away during the 20 seconds vendetta is on the target

[spice socket]

Sath's question makes sense to me. To maximize damage under vendetta you want to a) maximize the number of abilities cast, b) optimize damage per cast. Not pooling optimizes a, but it could come at the expense of b. If I pooled for the first envenom after vendetta starts such that I don't lose any casts in the 20 second window that seems strictly better.

[teal bloom]

Yeah pooling is better as long as you don't lose casts because of it

[balmy condor]

oh man, I missed quite a conversation haven't I

let me catch up real quick

[fleet anchor]

We don't pool at all when Vendetta is up

[limber lion]

Nooo I missed something else as well

[soft shale]

i was here

[limber lion]

But got a 11% wipe on Sire :'') everyone just died to overlap

[spice socket]

Yeah Koji, but that basically doesn't make sense to me

IF you don't lose a cast, pooling seems strictly better

[fleet anchor]

Pooling is just a marginal gain to fit slightly more into TB/Vendetta windows by entering cooldowns at max-ish energy

There isn't really much reason to do it otherwise

It has very minor benefit anyway currently

[grave dock]

I understand it's a marginal gain across the board

[balmy condor]

the issue here is that you're already slamming envenoms at the start of the shiv in the vend

so you're already 10 seconds in with full slamming

[grave dock]

the same question applies to shiv though

if you can fit the same number of casts in with some marginal pooling at the start, you might as well?

[wary ice]

you literally cant predict this unless you have 0 or 100% crit though.

[spice socket]

Ok, that was my sense, it doesn't actually matter that much (hasn't since envenom stopped consuming poison stacks) and so trying to pool during envenon is additional cognitive load (and probably super annoying to write as an APL) so don't bother

[fleet anchor]

But the reason you'd avoid pooling when Vendetta or TB is up is that you are risking actually not being able to dump all your energy in time if you wait too long

[grave dock]

yea, you definitely can't wait too long

[fleet anchor]

Especially if you RNG into procs

[grave dock]

at some point (probably like 6-7 globals before vend is over?) you have to speed up and dump

[fleet anchor]

Since Blindside is hard to account for

[grave dock]

that's true, I wasn't thinking about the blindside part of this

[bleak sky]

quick question: do we always go for deeper stratagems or do we need a certain amount of haste to do so?

[balmy condor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sbcvTMAi1zzrm1hcGYBZ73 here's a sim that doesn't pool in vend at all, I even ran it without blindside (ep/deeper), to make sure that we're getting max value from the actual pooling

and it's just not relevant

[bleak sky]

I find myself out of enery often with deeper strats

[balmy condor]

you're dumping in the shiv

and then the other 2-3 envenoms you're ever going to fit, are during a starved moment of energy

that naturally pools for you

[grave dock]

i'd be curious to see how the sim handles pooling though. is it a static condition where you either hold for -25 energy always, or never pool at all?

ideally you'd want some middle point where you pool sometimes, but then avoid pooling in the last portion of vend (for my thought experiment anyway)

[balmy condor]

envenom,if=effective_combo_points>=4+talent.deeper_stratagem.enabled&(debuff.vendetta.up|debuff.shiv.up|debuff.flagellation.up|energy.deficit<=25+energy.regen_combined|!variable.single_target)&(!talent.exsanguinate.enabled|cooldown.exsanguinate.remains>2)

[grave dock]

but I assume that's a pain in the ass to write

[balmy condor]

that's the envenom line

energy.deficit<=25+energy.regen_combined

[grave dock]

yea, that's what I figured

[balmy condor]

that part being the pool

[grave dock]

so that line is going to sit on an envenom for the last GCD of vend if it isn't within -25

which is unfortunate

[fleet anchor]

Also you have to monitor your Mutilate debuff if you are pooling too hard, depending on what you have cast like.. say you Mutilate -> pool -> Rupture -> Garrote -> SBS or something (just in theory) your Mutilated Flash could maaaaybe fall off for Envenom. But this is less likely.

[balmy condor]

well its 25+regen

which is accounting bleed ticks, and passive regen of ~11 per second

[grave dock]

is that the doomblade debuff koji?

[fleet anchor]

yes

[grave dock]

ok

[visual prairie]

it's not. the first part of the line is dbuff.vendetta.up

[balmy condor]

it's not what?

[wary ice]

scroll up fleep

[visual prairie]

is that line you showed a modified version?

[balmy condor]

no

that's the base apl

[visual prairie]

so it's not holding during vendetta for energy, right?

[balmy condor]

correct

[wary ice]

in the base apl, it doesnt

The convo is on whether you should

[balmy condor]

that's the whole point of this conversation

[visual prairie]

oh

just make it debuff.vendetta.remains < 5 or something

[wary ice]

#assassination message

im telling u man

[balmy condor]

I removed it entirely in that sim

adding the time remains would actually do even less

[visual prairie]

well it would pool unless you were at the end of vendetta

[balmy condor]

the fact that the radical change doesn't have any shift of value

[grave dock]

yea, this is basically what I was looking for. intuitively it still doesn't exactly make 100% sense to me (seems like there could be super marginal gains if you did it right) but if you ran a sim for it, that's good enough

[fleet anchor]

Yes it's just non-relevant. And typically we make line conditions in the APL simpler rather than more complex when things aren't true

[balmy condor]

well the super-marginal gain is there

[fleet anchor]

But in this case since pooling is "harder" than mashing

We made an exception to invert the logic

[grave dock]

what do you mean?

[balmy condor]

it's just so marginal that it's still within the margin of error

[grave dock]

as in, not pooling is a super marginal gain?

[fleet anchor]

There are also some edge cases where pooling during Vendetta is a loss. But I forget which combo it is.

[balmy condor]

according to that, it's a gain of 4 dps

yes

but the error is +-3

[grave dock]

yea at that level it's a wash

[balmy condor]

so it's within margin of error

[grave dock]

and you'd get different results with MOE

exactly

[balmy condor]

which means it's irrelevant

[spice socket]

Thats publishable @balmy condor don't knock it.

[wary ice]

Its worth noting that the sim still isnt hitting what you're saying

[balmy condor]

[wary ice]

in which you'd only pool the first half this way

[grave dock]

yes, I kn ow

[visual prairie]

how much is the difference with no pooling for envenom at all.

[balmy condor]

if I reported every gain of 4 dps I've found

oh man

[grave dock]

that's what I think could still be a super marginal gain

but if koji says who cares I trust koji

[vestal wren]

4 dps gain, dps error 4 dps

[fleet anchor]

I mean if you run the sim multiple times you'll just get the result you want

😄

[grave dock]

lol

[vestal wren]

koji just proved my point

[balmy condor]

are we back to fighting about sepsis ambush

[spice socket]

Now we can publish a meta-analysis of the set of simulations. Y'all clearly aren't academics

[fleet anchor]

Run SimC locally and set it to 0.001 target error

and let it run for 8 hours

[balmy condor]

I'd rather kill myself thanks

[fleet anchor]

to figure out how to gain 2 DPS

😄

[fleet anchor]

lol meta analysis of meta analysis, I like it 😄

[grave dock]

this is the problem with picking up a class again mid stream during an xpac

a thousand "but what about this weird edge case" questions that normally get sorted out during beta

[fleet anchor]

Let me force it to 100000 iterations!

[balmy condor]

well to be fair

those weird edge cases were sorted out like 6 years ago

sin doesn't get changes

[balmy condor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mvdDsozrxuj5dW56uTSZnT

pooling is so sick

[grave dock]

sorted out to a degree, yea, but other small stuff changes around it and can make a difference

[fleet anchor]

Ok

Definitive answer 😄

[grave dock]

I asked fiery about this before running it past ravenholdt as an idiot check (am I asking a stupid question) and he referenced mists sims he did showing pooling was a 0.5% gain

[fleet anchor]

100000 iterations saves the day

[spice socket]

I mean the real galaxy brain take is pooling doesn't matter at all, we just pretend it does because otherwise assn just makes everyone sad

[grave dock]

so

yea, it's been a while

[balmy condor]

you asked fiery BEFORE us?

[stoic needle]

~30dps

[balmy condor]

oh no

[grave dock]

I know I know

[vestal wren]

just don't talk about dps variance and 0.1% matter

[grave dock]

but it wasn't on discord, to be fair!

[fleet anchor]

So pooling during Vendetta will, on average across 100000 iterations lose you 5 +-1 DPS

Probably due to one edge case stupid Blindside proc every 10000 pulls

😄

[loud light]

time to sim different energy thresholds for the pooling

[balmy condor]

have fun

[loud light]

rofl

[fleet anchor]

I only accept APL changes of 0.2% or greater these days 🤣

[balmy condor]

make sure to repeatedly ping koji about how 27 energy is actually a gain 0.3 dps over 25

[vestal wren]

i did quite some sims for #subtlety for pooling

[balmy condor]

he loves that

[fleet anchor]

Fuu's sickness has gone too far

[spice socket]

No no, lets run it through a non-linear optimization framework to predict the optimal threshold as a function of gear levels!

[fleet anchor]

Although I appreciate the desperation of Sub optimizations

[balmy condor]

[fleet anchor]

After being 20% behind for 3 years

[vestal wren]

i just wanted to make sub compatitive

[grave dock]

wait isn't sub pooling sort of a thing for ShT CP?

I haven't touched sub yet, idk if ShT got changed

(yes yes wrong channel)

[vestal wren]

sub has some pooling conditions, mainly for shadow dance and vanish

[grave dock]

yea that too for sure

[fleet anchor]

@spice socket I'm still waiting for you or Synecdoche to automate all the APL creation with galaxy brain some silver bullet machine learning system

[vestal wren]

^ me too

[balmy condor]

not really, cause you finish on max-1 in sub as well, and usually waiting for the CP would cause you to lose a cast of strike during a dance or something

[grave dock]

ahh I didn't realize you finish -1 atm

for sub that is

[spice socket]

That'll be all Synecdoche, I don't know nearly enough to do that. I have an even stupider approach

[fleet anchor]

Please free up my weekend schedule!

[vestal wren]

reinforced learning 👀 ?

[balmy condor]

is the stupider approach getting a squad of monkeys with green names to comb through the APL constantly in hopes of finding gains?

[spice socket]

So my theory is there is actually a squad of a few hundred thousand people out there constantly running experiments

[vestal wren]

only a few do rly

[fleet anchor]

Oh I like that

[balmy condor]

that's probably already doomed

[brittle pawn]

new green role name?

monkey squad

[spice socket]

Unanimity!

[fleet anchor]

lol

[balmy condor]

how about this

every time someone sims on raidbots

[fleet anchor]

Honestly the problem with any sort of automated system is that you still need to curate it

So many "accidental" changes

[balmy condor]

a random line of APL gets altered slightly

and then we can use big data to determine gains

[fleet anchor]

Like someone sent me an APL change a while ago

That showed as a gain

But was totally non-sensical

[vestal wren]

but, if we can make apl editing easier appraochable we might have a few thousand people out there 👀

[fleet anchor]

And was basically just causing some other timing condition that was a gain

[spice socket]

I'll rant about APL syntax another time

[balmy condor]

it's already quite approachable imo

[fleet anchor]

And turned out there was a much larger gain to be found by determining the root cause

TECHNICALLY the change itself was a gain

But it was garbarge

[brittle pawn]

a bot that scrapes logs, and uses people's random rotations to determine the optimal one

[vestal wren]

anything within a console or a text editor is not approachable for the majority.
We need some graphical interface

[spice socket]

That is basically my stupid idea

[fleet anchor]

So that's the real issue. Reporting only gets you so far. Unless the changes are extremely straightforward.

[vestal wren]

rip

the entire dfa iteration would have been doomed if it went from logs

[fleet anchor]

You still need to apply some critical thinking otherwise it will just become a spaghetti monster

[balmy condor]

[vestal wren]

well, or at least never evolved

[balmy condor]

the full circle is that sims just become the base game

and we all have spaghetti for dinner

[fleet anchor]

I probably spend more time simming than playing these days, so I'm not sure that's not already happened

[spice socket]

100%, you use this to curate ideas to explore in more detail

[fleet anchor]

Also based on how many people get upset when their sims "go down" due to changes or fixes

[balmy condor]

me too friend, me too

[fleet anchor]

I'm not totally sure simming isn't just its own metagame at this point!

[vestal wren]

i def. do, not that much lately tho. I hope for some changes in 9.1

[fleet anchor]

coughRaz simscough

[grave dock]

one thing that is great about the rogue APL (having spent most of my time looking at other classes this xpac) is that there's actual text and explanations of stuff

[balmy condor]

one time out of boredom I tried to see what the highest simdps I could get out of raidbots without it overflowing

[spice socket]

I remember during WoD feeling guilty that I wasn't working on the ShC models because I was currently raiding. Which is...moderately backwards

[grave dock]

most other APLs are just straight lines and conditionals and stuff

[balmy condor]

that was a fun 15 minutes

[grave dock]

it's a lot easier for a laymen to digest regular words explaining what each line means

[fleet anchor]

Yes I think us going the route of comments has been a good idea

[vestal wren]

we started commenting everything at the start of bfa iirc, you can mostly thanks mystler for that

[fleet anchor]

Even if it technically makes the file bigger 😄

[fleet anchor]

Yeah this is part of why I like the 2 night schedule. Leaves a lot of time.

[spice socket]

Is there any better approach to syntax highlighting. I wrote a quick and dirty thing for sublime back in MoP, but it only helps a little

[grave dock]

some stuff just gets confusing if you aren't well versed in APLs, especially lines that are packed with a bunch of conditionals all rolled into one

[limber lion]

I missed all of the juicy stuff whilst progressing

[fleet anchor]

Well that's also why we've started using variables more

To avoid some of the mega lines

[grave dock]

yea I like that

[balmy condor]

combustion,use_off_gcd=1,use_while_casting=1,if=buff.combustion.down&variable.time_to_combustion<=0&(!runeforge.disciplinary_command|buff.disciplinary_command.up|buff.disciplinary_command_frost.up&talent.rune_of_power&cooldown.buff_disciplinary_command.ready)&(!runeforge.grisly_icicle|debuff.grisly_icicle.up)&(!covenant.necrolord|cooldown.deathborne.remains|buff.deathborne.up)&(action.meteor.in_flight&action.meteor.in_flight_remains<=variable.combustion_cast_remains|action.scorch.executing&action.scorch.execute_remains<variable.combustion_cast_remains|action.fireball.executing&action.fireball.execute_remains<variable.combustion_cast_remains|action.pyroblast.executing&action.pyroblast.execute_remains<variable.combustion_cast_remains|action.flamestrike.executing&action.flamestrike.execute_remains<variable.combustion_cast_remains)

is that not readable?

[grave dock]

lmao

[plain thistle]

[vestal wren]

i do this, because i am even lazier 😛

[visual prairie]

too much maintenance to have 18 versions of the apl i imagine, but if the apl was for specific builds and fight types, it would be a lot easier to read.

[balmy condor]

mystler has made fun of me in the past because I do my apl editing in the actual raidbots window

cause I cba pulling it out and in and out and in

[vestal wren]

i remember that too from your stream

[balmy condor]

[fleet anchor]

I mean that's a VERY verbose way of saying "use combust when you're casting a Fire spell and about to proc Disciplinary Command for the most part 😄

They could benefit from a comment for sure lol

But also probably a custom expression

For handling DC school procs in general

It's kinda a dumb legendary tbh

[spice socket]

To be clear, my simple thing isn't much better

I just wanted comments and bracket matching mostly. I'd do more, but I'm not actually sure what the right approach is because pretty much everything in SimC syntax is a keyword

[fleet anchor]

hmm

[vestal wren]

that looks worse to me ^^

[fleet anchor]

Yeah I mean maybe some stuff you could do with resource keywords (energy. rage. etc.) or the first thing in a line after / and before the first comma as the line keyword

I dunno

[vestal wren]

i use tabnine for autocomplete, but thats about it (https://www.tabnine.com/)

apl condisons rarely become complex enough to make highlighting of & or | relevant.
If its that complex i usually spread them in multiple lines when editing

[spice socket]

Yeah that might be true

As I said, this was something I put together in a couple minutes because I was curious, its not really good and I could never figure out a way to make it less bad

[swift dragon]

what stats should i be putting on my leggos ?

zoldyck's specifically

[spice socket]

*Put together in a couple minutes 6 or 7 years ago

[vestal wren]

e.g i would splitactions+=/variable,name=stealth_threshold,value=25+talent.vigor.enabled*20+talent.master_of_shadows.enabled*20+talent.shadow_focus.enabled*25+talent.alacrity.enabled*20+25*(spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4) into: actions+=/variable,name=stealth_threshold,value=25+ talent.vigor.enabled*20+t alent.master_of_shadows.enabled*20 +talent.shadow_focus.enabled*25+ talent.alacrity.enabled*20+ 25*(spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4) when working on it

[swift dragon]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[spice socket]

Yeah, I do that a lot when working with code

[swift dragon]

so haste vers on my leggo ?

[brittle pawn]

haste crit probably

[mighty owl]

Probably haste/crit but you can sim that in raidbots

[vestal wren]

best is to sim, all of them are close mastery tents to be usually a weaker stat

[swift dragon]

why would I sim an ilvl 130 character

im crafting the first leggo i just need to know what missives i buy

[subtle tundra]

crit haste is safe 🙂

[swift dragon]

aight

[subtle tundra]

actually any combination without mastery is safe

[swift dragon]

how is mastery our worst stat ?

[subtle tundra]

it just is

[swift dragon]

huh

[mighty owl]

It does less damage per point than the others

[swift dragon]

wierd

oh fucked scaling i guess

[subtle tundra]

also if you plan on gearing fast, you will do pvp

which gives vers gear

[swift dragon]

cause some classes mastery is god tier

[subtle tundra]

wow!

[swift dragon]

but for most its ass garbage

[subtle tundra]

and outlaw mastery is worthless

[mighty owl]

Not worthless, just also not as good

[swift dragon]

like my main is WW

mastery is our best stat by such a margin its kidna hilarious

[stoic needle]

Mastery is good for aoe

[subtle tundra]

well he cant know what items he will have at 220 ilvl

[balmy condor]

just a by-product of tuning/balancing

[limber lion]

Fuuuuuck

2% wipe last pull of the night

Okay, time to catch up with whatever happened here the past 2 hours.

[lean rover]

Impressive log :p

[limber lion]

Nothing matters as long as the boss isn't dead.

We'll get em next time, team!

[patent topaz]

you will get him next time

[drowsy coral]

Hey boys, quick question : do you mouseover garott/rupture ? I'm used to just tab targets but I wonder how better i'd be to mouseover them

[limber lion]

I just tab-target. I do have mouse-over garrote/ruptures setup as well, but I don't really use them ever.

It's more of a preference thing tbh.

[balmy condor]

Yeah Mouseover’s aren’t some crazy secret tech to get 20% more dps

[drowsy coral]

I'd guess since you've to be in range, might be better to tab garott rather than mouseover

Of course (: Just looking for quality of life improvement

Thanks for the input !

[hollow venture]

For things like shadow step or intervene on warrior the mouse over is more important, but yeah tab garrote has been working for me.

[strange python]

Can kui nameplates show debuffs on enemies or do you have to use the whole elvui interface?

For assassin I need to be able to see the debuffs I have on enemies but it doesn’t show above the nameplate I use kui

[swift dragon]

whats our best soulbind, nadija or theotar ?

[limber lion]

Nadjia for ST, Theotar for AoE/M+

[swift dragon]

right

double pot for nadija or adversary ?

[balmy condor]

Adversary

[swift dragon]

k

ty

[pliant apex]

I’m simply unable to parse purple at 218 ilvl in heroic CN is that normal ?

[balmy condor]

Kui does that out of the box. I would try and disable any conflicting addons

[strange python]

How would I figure out which addon would conflict?

[balmy condor]

You would ask yourself the question “does this addon affect nameplates, and are nameplates enabled in that addon?”

Like ElvUI has nameplates, if you have those enabled

That’s a conflict

[strange python]

Ahhh okay okay I’ll figure it out

[balmy condor]

If you have plater as well

[strange python]

Oh okay

[balmy condor]

That’s a conflict

[copper hazel]

tidy plates

[strange python]

I had elvui but I disabled it and went to kui but I’ll double check

[pliant apex]

If I go venthyr will I parse purple then? I’m NF rn

[balmy condor]

Doubtful

[pliant apex]

😦

[balmy condor]

Any cov decision you make will probably affect 97-99

[strange python]

I don’t mind looking under focused bosses but if I plan to fight where there are adds I have to be able to tell what debuffs I have without clicking on them

[balmy condor]

Not like 60-90

[pliant apex]

I understand , thanks

[balmy condor]

Np

[fallen fable]

@strange python platter, find suitable profile on wago.io

[limber lion]

Like I've been saying all this time.

[dull cloak]

are u saying if im not venthyr i can never get a 99+parse :/

[balmy condor]

No

I’m saying it probably won’t impact anything until you reach that level of min max

[timber basalt]

is it ever worth it to shiv at max cp?

[balmy condor]

It’s always worth

Shiv is a cooldown you use on cooldown

The cp from it be damned

[timber basalt]

oh ok

[loud silo]

There are so many other variables that have an impact over your parse

Being venthyr or not is just 1 variable

[daring plover]

nah its doomed gg

[pliant apex]

Yea, was just looking for a second opinion, more out of desperation tbh..

[drifting cloud]

well gear matters alot more than cov

a few bad slots can add up, even when youre not comparing to mythic raiders

since you can gear what above 220 without stepping into mythic

or even 2.1k pvp

[wind dune]

Hey guys! For the Master assassin, night stalker, mfd rotation on single target. Do I hold vanish for a pandemic refresh on rupture or do I get on cd asap with vanish into mutts + envenom?

[balmy condor]

You hold for vanish rup in pandemic

[wind dune]

thanks !

[icy ember]

yo whispyr what is your opener like on mythic sire?

as sin

[low girder]

resisting joke

[balmy condor]

Non-existent

[plain thistle]

you stab stab then you lag the shit out of the game because 10000 adds just spawned

[lost mist]

just depleted a 20 PF, i got Phial... last week i looted 226 hateful chain -.-

[hollow escarp]

got my phial on a +18 deplete

worth it

[lost mist]

nice

but look at this, i upgraded it just bc i was tilted

[brittle pawn]

does feint work on blood price?

or do you need elusiveness

[shy dust]

Need elusiveness

[brittle pawn]

worth taking for prog? or is cheat better

[shy dust]

Id still say CD is better

Not having to use a battle rez is very nice

[low girder]

i cloak the first blood price in p1, after that raw healing should be enough

[nocturne hawk]

Feint works on cleansing pain though I think

[low girder]

it does. just do not ever cloak that lol

[nocturne hawk]

lol

never thought of cloaking price, just always stepped after it

[low girder]

the damage on the first one in mythic can hit pretty hard

depending on strat

[wise gull]

Noticed a lot of the newer logs on sire are using EP+Vigor, that the play now?

I'd imagine blindside is still a better choice if progging though, right?

[icy ember]

well maybe @stoic needle can help me, what is your opener like on mythic sire as sin?

[fleet anchor]

I don't really see too much reason to run EP on Sire unless you are AoE padding

[wise gull]

That's what I figured

[fleet anchor]

Sire is a ST fight disguised as an AoE fight 😛

[wise gull]

Vigor though?

[low girder]

EP/Vigor is def a padding thing. although i've been running CT for prog since i have zoldyck on anyway

[stoic needle]

i'm still on sludgefist bro

[low girder]

feels like a better choice so far

[stoic needle]

but it's the same as any other st opener

[wise gull]

I'm trialing in a 9/10 guild next week so just want to make sure I'm prepared if I get brought in

[icy ember]

well any boss as sin i haven't played this tier, what is the opener?

i've been strictly outlaw/sub

[stoic needle]

mut snd mut gar vend flag rup

[low girder]

you can delay cds slightly since you're sitting on them in p1 anyway

[icy ember]

but i played it during bfa on nzoth

[low girder]

that way you can get env fok env in the MA window

[stoic needle]

can put vend before gar to get the gar out quicker

[low girder]

when the adds come up

[balmy condor]

Damn dude

You’re 0/2

[wise gull]

Early vendetta on pull so you don't lose 3-4s of it during the first blood price?

[icy ember]

so for the raid strictly do you go sub or MA talentwise?

and sorry whisper i had no idea lol

[balmy condor]

MA

[balmy condor]

Yeah happens man

You’d be surprised how many people ask me for advice on like mythic sun king or mythic slg

And I’m just sitting there like

Me heroic raider

Idk why you ask me for fight specific things

[fathom swift]

your opener on sire depends on when ur using cds in p2

[icy ember]

how do you mean bolas?

[fathom swift]

cause if you're using it on 2nd add you kinda wanna vendetta early so it's up in time

cause it's almost exactly 4 min

otherwise it's the same as anything else really, I usually vanish when first adds spawn to fok - env - fok but depends how much you need the aoe

[low girder]

yeah that's what i'm doing

but like you said i'm burning cds on first add

so doesn't really matter when i pop the first ones

[fathom swift]

yeah if you're using cds on first there's no rush since you hold a while anyway

it's better overall if you can convince your guild to let you cd first since you get an extra vendetta on the boss in p2 as well

[icy ember]

"w/MA i do this: G M R Ven TB M til +4 Vanish E M E" ... this is ancient BFA knowledge i had locked behind my mind in a closed txt file, how accurate is it today?

[low girder]

yeah don't do that

mut snd mut gar rup, assuming you get 4 on the 2nd mut

mut again if not

[icy ember]

and TB=shiv basically right

or is there some difference to it

[balmy condor]

Yep

[low girder]

essentially

[balmy condor]

Just on cooldown like tb

[low girder]

it hits less hard

that's about it

[strange python]

Does plater show the time of duration in text of the debuffs?

[balmy condor]

Depends how you configure it

[strange python]

Can kui show the duration in text?

[balmy condor]

My plater even highlights in pandemic

[balmy condor]

Yes

[strange python]

Huh...okay didn’t know it could do that it’s a setting I’d have to put on then? I would want to stick with kui cause I’m a little familiar and I like how I can. Make the nameplates width really large to see easier

[balmy condor]

No idea

Kui should just work out of the box

I only used it briefly

And then switched to plater

[strange python]

Well as long as kui does show text I’ll try to figure out I only thought it shows the picture and like the clockwise clock to show time duration

Oh okay maybe I can give plater a try

I don’t know what pandemic is though

[icy ember]

you can use plater but just use undadtv's settings, they work fine for me

im a special person when it comes to coding so i use default stuff

[nocturne hawk]

The last 30% of your dots/bleeds duration where you can refresh w/o penalty

[strange python]

confirm that numbing poison and curse of weakness stacks? melee attack speeds of bosses

[strange python]

Ty

[low girder]

it does

[strange python]

yuuge

[strange python]

He’s a YouTuber I assume?

[round harbor]

youtube/twitch

[balmy condor]

https://wago.io/p/Whispyr

My stuff is all there as well

[icy ember]

https://wago.io/eMd-ZBdX7

there is undad's plater stuff

[round harbor]

bigdumbnameplates kinda nice too

but im like one of 5 people that use it instead of plater these days i think

[low girder]

lol, i tried importing undad's profile to see what it's like and my game crashed

[icy ember]

ya it takes a LONG Time

just wait for it

[strange python]

@balmy condor yo. Just watched some podcast with ya.

[low girder]

nah it hard crashed

i just hit desktop

[strange python]

How can I see rotation? For ST Doomblade?

[balmy condor]

Wild, I think I was there for that

[balmy condor]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[low girder]

whispyr on a podcast

[strange python]

Just quick question.

And I heard this week isn’t going to update? So does that mean there’s no refresh for vault or soul ash

[balmy condor]

[balmy condor]

Sure

[strange python]

Haven't been playing wow for a while. I know that sub got some shitty nerfs.

[icy ember]

well it never hard crashed for me, it just caused my computer to freeze up for like 20secs, kinda scary

[balmy condor]

Not sure what you mean

[balmy condor]

Not nerfs, just no buffs

[strange python]

Was he jucked up in pvp?

[balmy condor]

It’s actually just as strong as it was at the start of the tier

Everything else just got buffed

[round harbor]

outlaw was always better tho

[balmy condor]

Which is unlucky

[round harbor]

and sin has gotten buffs

[strange python]

What about assassination so far right now pve and pvp wise?

[low girder]

enormous buffs

[balmy condor]

Pretty okay

[shy dust]

?

[balmy condor]

Good single target

[shy dust]

we are on even ground now mister

[strange python]

Well...I'm not a fun of outlaw.

[balmy condor]

But obviously sucks at aoe

[shy dust]

you cannot spew slander such as outlaw was always better than sub

cause thats just 100% wrong

[balmy condor]

Neither am I :) you can play sin perfectly fine

[strange python]

This week this aren’t going to be reset on raid progress is what I heard from a guild I’m in

[round harbor]

ok ok

[balmy condor]

Find a new guild then

[strange python]

So I assumed that meant no reset for Tuesday

[balmy condor]

[round harbor]

sub was better on 2 bosses than outlaw

[strange python]

Lmfaooooooo

[round harbor]

u got me

[shy dust]

wait

[strange python]

Lmfaooooooo I’m crying

[balmy condor]

Got some tinfoil hats in there

[shy dust]

who was better on council sunking, sludge

[balmy condor]

Get out of there

Quickly

[shy dust]

everything else outside of slg was a toss up

[round harbor]

sludge/sunking ill give you

[shy dust]

huntsman too*

[icy ember]

[round harbor]

nah outlaw cleave on huntsman no nshot bucko

[shy dust]

yes outside of slg and huntsman

everything else was a toss up

[round harbor]

ya

[strange python]

And what would be the best speed up gearing up for now? 2100 arena and conq around 12k would help for any spec in pve?

[strange python]

Wait I’m stupid

[shy dust]

outlaw brought nothing to council

that sub didnt already do better

[strange python]

Can’t a guild choose to extend lockout

[round harbor]

woah

[balmy condor]

A common revelation

[balmy condor]

They can, yes

[round harbor]

yeah it does free cleave, immunity, and instant dmg on atendant

[strange python]

That’s what they meant lmfao my bad

[balmy condor]

Kek

[shy dust]

sub does instant damage on attendant too

you have dance for them

[strange python]

But that affects me doesn’t it? If I wanted to re do heroic?

[balmy condor]

Nah

[shy dust]

sub also does very high boss damage throughout the fight

[balmy condor]

Extending is only for mythic

[shy dust]

immunity is something all rogue spec brings so irrelvant

[low girder]

on heroic no, because things that aren't mythic are boss lockouts

whereas mythic is still an ID lockout

[strange python]

Okay lastly do you hold any cds on sludgefist? Until pillar?

[round harbor]

ya true

[balmy condor]

Yep, every other shiv on a pillar, and vend/flag/sepsis/other stuff on every other pillar

Usually pull/2/4 or 1/3

Depending on mythic/heroic and how fast you’re killing

[low girder]

you can use 2 shivs on pull

btw

[balmy condor]

That’s true

[low girder]

but other than that yeah every other

[strange python]

Hmm....so when u pop vend u wanna pop flagg wit?

[balmy condor]

You can think of pull like a pillar basically

[balmy condor]

On sludge pillars specifically, yes

Usually you cast them both on cooldown

[strange python]

Oh okay anything else it doesn’t matter?

Oh okay got it

It feels like assassin is a little more difficult than outlaw tbh lol

[shy dust]

very much so the opposite

especially on st

[strange python]

Really? Well I’m speaking on bias obv starting with outlaw for about 3 months

[balmy condor]

Maintain everything, press everything on cooldown

[shy dust]

Sin is considered the easiest of the rogue specs

[balmy condor]

And you’re good to go

[strange python]

Oh ok I’m asking a lot of questions my bad but y do assassins do much better than outlaws in huntsman considering there’s cleave?

[round harbor]

two target cleave entire fight could helpo

where as outlaw kinda misses out on second dog cleave half the time

and the end of the fight the damge burst window is kinda nasty if u can fit in a vendetta in there

whereas outlaw cant do on demand dmg like that

just my speculation

[shy dust]

sin just have strong 2t cleave i believe

[round harbor]

ya

[shy dust]

i doubt outlaw 2t sim

is close to a sin 2t

[nocturne hawk]

tons of energy regen

[low girder]

yeah last i checked doing my sims on cleave add sin was like 600 up

[round harbor]

like having garrote/rupt on everything kinda lit

[shy dust]

sin abosolutely pumps

p3 of slg boss damage

still useless for the entire fight tho

[round harbor]

idk, is it worth maintaining doomblade on two targets?

or attempting to atleast

[shy dust]

it works like ignite

so prob not

[round harbor]

especially with DD

i just slam huntsman ahap

[strange python]

Okay and what is nightstalker empowered debuffs? Is it random?

[balmy condor]

Spreading the dot does nothing

[balmy condor]

Not sure what you mean, nightstalker empowers your next ability out of stealth

[strange python]

Is nightstalker a talent?

[balmy condor]

Yes

Second row on the left

[strange python]

Looking at the rotations online and it says to keep it til I jus about runs out

Oh okay

[balmy condor]

We usually don’t take it though

Subterfuge in cleave/aoe and master assassin single target

[icy ember]

for the raid, do you ever take sub? probably not cuz exsang isn't a thing any longer

[balmy condor]

You take it on huntsman, sun king, and slg I believe

Anytime you have more than 1 target for an extended amount of time

[icy ember]

man i remember briefly trying out sin during the beta and it felt like dogshit

[low girder]

amazing what 30%+ more damage and removing a button can do for people

[icy ember]

which button was removed? you talkin about the gcd of vendetta? and what was the total of the 5% buffs? did it really add up to 30% yikes

[balmy condor]

Slice

[low girder]

aura buffs + doomblade buff + cttc + envenom bugfix

but yeah slice was basically removed

[icy ember]

wait it was removed

[low girder]

not actually but you hit it once and you're done

[icy ember]

ohhh

i didn't know that

when was that added?

[low girder]

9.0.5

[balmy condor]

10.0

They removed slice

And reworked the talents

Great patch

[low girder]

lol

9.2 they'll just make slice passive

i assume

cttc is kinda dumb

[icy ember]

what is cttc

[low girder]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=51667/cut-to-the-chase

that's what i meant when i said they removed slice

[icy ember]

ya it did feel super awkward to have to refresh s and d and rupture and garrote, and SOMETIMES, every now and then, you can envenom

and prolly the additional haste helps quite a bit