that's actually huge 
#assassination
frail fossil
balmy condor
no clue
frail fossil
kojima
balmy condor
that's actually huge <:wow:464513276160507904>
it's not really tbh
balmy condor
it's 2.2%
frail fossil
and it's better in anything involving multiple target
frail fossil
yeah but it help close the gap in the sim, would prolly be a bit more behind
if that wasn't a thing
like not by a crazy amount but a bit
frail fossil
You may be only 2.2% behind in ST, but you're also stinky
ok cringer
stoic needle
Why would I want to do that
stoic needle
<:Madge:821793421328515092> ok cringer
Ok stinky 
balmy condor
yeah but it help close the gap in the sim, would prolly be a bit more behind
the sim uses doomblade though
there is no gap to close
that is the gap
stoic needle
He's saying the gap would be even bigger without the bonespike interaction
frail fossil
yeah
stoic needle
Because you're stinky. Agreed
frail fossil
frail fossil
i'm just making necro propaganda go necro, stay away from venthyr and ppl like osho
frail fossil
yes i love using bone spike in wow shadowlands content
gusty mirage
<a:venthyr:761033570277916682>
quaint hare
Hey guys, new to assass rogue - in the opener is it better to apply a 5 point rupture before or after I pop vendetta&flag. Thanks!
balmy condor
after
shy finch
i don't think it matters much but i couldn't find anywhere - does deeper strat and/or animacharge increase poison bomb by the extra 4/8%?
stoic needle
Poison bomb damage isn't based on cp
shy finch
proc chance is right?
balmy condor
it does
yes
more cp means more proc
so those indeed do work
if you have more cp
shy finch
ty
dense vine
ty
balmy condor
if you have it talented, you would cast it single target out of shiv
stable arch
thanks
timber pawn
anyone know roughly how long it takes to get back to lvl 40 covenent after resetting if i want to go venthyr
timber pawn
playing how much
stoic needle
@balmy condor would you say it's more of a dps gain to pool to 90+ energy before every envenom outside of shiv or to try to pandemic the envenom buff?
balmy condor
2-3 days
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> would you say it's more of a dps gain to pool to 90+ ener...
that's the same thing
stoic needle
if i pool to 90+ for every envenom the envenom buff falls off
pandemicing the buff has me envenoming at like 60 or 70 pretty frequently
stoic needle
nevermind, i think my pandemic buff indicator isnt working properly
its not showing the full window
tight ginkgo
For sustained two-target, if I have vendetta up on a main target and bleeds start to drop off on off-target, is it better to just focus into main target 'til vendetta drops vs. reapply off-target bleeds with vendetta active? I guess optimally I wouldn't run into that situation other than garrote falling off for like two seconds, but still :V
dense bramble
reapply bleed cuz of energy gain i think
soft shale
only garrote and maybe auto some to get posion again on them
strange python
!opener
sour wraith
does feint work on sludge's roar, soaks, and charge impact? or do I need elusiveness for it
foggy flume
!opener
stoic needle
does feint work on sludge's roar, soaks, and charge impact? or do I need elusive...
yes it works on all of those without elusiveness
sour wraith
sweet thanks
wary ice
😬 i just did huntsman w/ CT but forgot i swapped and didnt use it once
stoic needle
wet lava
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
rapid tree
So I have a 213 Skulkers, 213 Memory of Past Sins, and a 207 Dreadfire. When I sim it says I should use Memory and Skulkers....Why is that? Because of ilvl?
balmy condor
because that's the combination that does the most damage
rapid tree
Whats the best trinket combo I should be using? Phial and Skulkers right?
stoic needle
Skulkers is da poop
ideally you want the highest ilvl phial and dreadfire vessel
barring the vessel you should try to get memory or iqd
forest beacon
for m+ zod on legs or feet, currently have 213 feet / 220 legs ?
wet lava
is 226 memory > 220 vessle?
soft shale
yes
stoic needle
for m+ zod on legs or feet, currently have 213 feet / 220 legs ?
legs
you can farm 220 feet
forest beacon
thanks
carmine ginkgo
!opener
dapper dock
anyone know if legendary powers drop before u have meet the runecarver?
stoic needle
i don't think they do
sick cairn
um guys, im doing mythic prog rn
stoic needle
yes that's just how it works
your muti is increased by 100%, which determines the dot damage
which is increased by another 100%
stoic needle
shh don't complain lmao just enjoy it
gray fjord
sick cairn
😮
fathom swift
talking bout sludge?
sick cairn
um altimor
chilly thicket
Does the master assassin talent still work with trinkets?
nocturne hawk
Talent never has
chilly thicket
ah ok, so no reason to save trinket for vanish then?
nocturne hawk
Nope
chilly thicket
sweet ty
forest beacon
about to craft Zod legs, crit/verse or crit/haste ? sims say crit and verse are top dungeon slice, crit/ haste ST
fallen cosmos
vendetta is off gcd right?
balmy condor
yes
fallen cosmos
so i can macro flag and vendetta Pog
placid dawn
for sludge should i use WPS or dauntlss duelist?
wide bolt
you dont save vendetta for flag all the time so macroing them together without having a flag bind will be a loss @fallen cosmos
vagrant oak
hey guys, whats the best way to optimise bone spike use as necro, for m+?
balmy condor
^
balmy condor
hey guys, whats the best way to optimise bone spike use as necro, for m+?
sniping low health targets for resets
vagrant oak
struggling to figure out where it fits when opening on packs
riiiight, so open as normal with subterfuge, etc
use it to kill off lower HP targets
thanks!
balmy condor
well
you shouldn't lust first pillar
but I wouldn't change my cds because of your raid leader trolling
balmy condor
I mean even in heroic that's pretty troll tbh
if you're doing 3 pillars in heroic, you still wouldn't want to lust pillar 1
hell, if you're doing 2 pillars, you wouldn't want to lust on 1 either
drifting cloud
🤔
balmy condor
3 pillar would be 3 min on pull and 3, 2 min on 1/3
so a lust on 3 would be better there
2 pillar would be 3 min on lust pillar, 2 min on pull and 2
so you would lust on 2
in what world is a lust on pillar 1 the move
bleak glacier
my guild on heroic sludge ^ kekw
drifting cloud
I dunno I mean it makes sense my boost run lusts on 1st
I dont really care why since it doesnt affect me
balmy condor
lust on 1 seems omega troll
drifting cloud
then they always int and the fight goes to 5th charge
balmy condor
when you can literally just not do it
drifting cloud
its probably because of that
balmy condor
it's not even like one of those things where it's like "well we did it during prog so we're doing it now for timing" or whatever
like
just move the lust
drifting cloud
yeah I mean we used to do 4th but lately theyve been doing 1st
we never wipe so whatever who cares
drifting cloud
man parsing as assa in hc sales is like x2 harder than sub
these kill timers are just death
drifting cloud
4:01 hungering
and ofc when I move my cds because I know im not getting extra sets they int just enough for the fight to take 80% of a cooldown window longer
ergo sludge dieing 3s before he does 5th charge
balmy condor
I've been calling for 3 pillar on our rekills
and then someone monke
and we always end up with 4
so I called for 4 this week
and we killed in 3
drifting cloud
its not even monke they just doing it interntionally half the time
atleast on sludge
balmy condor
I'm gonna strangle someone
drifting cloud
then on hungering they havent learned yet buyers dont move with laser so sooner or later someone gets 1shot
ive been hugging tank on laser for 3months
pale plank
Is it easy to Inter change specs between assassin and outlaw?
stoic needle
yeah as long as you have the proper weapons, they both want the same stats
sacred thicket
depends on the covenent
imo
I tried Sin for the ST fights this week in CN and felt I was punished for being Night Fae lol
Since conduits can't be swapped with a tome.
soft obsidian
hii, why does assasination rogue open with mutiliate instread of ambush?
sacred thicket
more CP I think is the ez explanation
drifting cloud
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
soft obsidian
oo
stoic needle
I tried Sin for the ST fights this week in CN and felt I was punished for being ...
yeah you have to use korayn for outlaw and niya for sin
sacred thicket
Yeah, but niya is best for both so... not sure how much dps I was losing by swapping to outlaw
Sin seems to hold just fine on a multi target raid boss.
soft obsidian
i see icy veins opener is mutiliate snd mutiliate for the 3 sec of 50% crit. isnt it better to use mutiliate -> bone spike -> envenom?
stoic needle
snd is more important than envenom
soft obsidian
ic
stoic needle
going for an envenom first will just energy starve you and not do much damage
getting up snd gar and rup is your top priority in the opener
sinful flicker
sorry to interrupt, but can someone help me with my logs to see how i can improve? ive been parsing ok and i just want to know what else i can do better to push me to do better dps
soft obsidian
okie thank you
sacred thicket
pay gold for PI
sinful flicker
that is my log for today, i stopped after sunking. please if anyone can, any criticism will be good
potent rune
does cloak work on the night hunter on sire?
soft shale
it is phys
wide bolt
does cloak work on the night hunter on sire?
cloak doesnt but cheat does
especially since sire is so long you can probably get 2 cheats
so just optimal defensive usage tbh
potent rune
ty
fading bridge
So Murlok.io has top RBG rogues going necro, but top 2s and 3s going venthyr why?
Nevermind it's now all necro
💰
gloomy knoll
power infusion lol
golden briar
does assass get anything out of melds in boss fights?
balmy condor
not really
gloomy knoll
would have to be extended 2 target cleave
for subter to be even with ma
meld might push it slightly ahead but pretty sure mecha just better if you ally
vocal stone
just switched from sub to sin for raiding, can someone take a quick look at these few logs and help me on improving my dps? (i have a couple more logs too)
hungering destroyer: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jFvtAg1aWQ7nNL4x#fight=1&type=summary&source=14
huntsman: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JtcjnVP13ag8dXW4#fight=12&type=damage-done&source=31
balmy condor
cursed
your uptimes could be a little higher
especially on envenom
also holding shiv way too much
plain onyx
Is it okay if I put Flagellation and Vendetta in one macro ? or it doesn't work ?
plain onyx
Of course I do, yeah not going to.
vocal stone
hah yeah i just found out about the mut opener today
so with blindside, ambush is only used with those procs
balmy condor
yes
balmy condor
mut snd mut gar vend flag rup shiv vanish mut to 5, env
people also don't play vigor
especially with venthyr
balmy condor
is it mut > snd > garrote? or
this is trolling the third second of your MA window
vocal stone
this is trolling the third second of your MA window
gotcha ok
and how would i get higher uptime on envenom
near apex
More haste:)
balmy condor
and how would i get higher uptime on envenom
pooling on envenom
vocal stone
this is a really dumb question, but for pooling energy, am i not casting anything until i have ~100 energy or am i slowing down casts to slowly get more energy
balmy condor
holding until about 30 from cap
vocal stone
thank you @balmy condor ❤️
balmy condor
np homie
blazing dirge
any chance i can get someone to look at logs, switched to assassination in 9.0.5 and want to maximize, still learning rotation
mythic raid logs- https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qKFjXTgn2VPy3hCY
blazing dirge
should i use in opener when im getting slice and dice, rupture going or wait til vendetta and at max cp to start envenoming
balmy condor
well you shouldn't mut gar snd in your first window
cause that's a waste
and you probably also shouldn't vanish before vendetta
because that seems like a waste too
the rest of it seems pretty okay
eternal lance
yo boys
eternal lance
in aoe rotation when i use garrot on 4 man After i must use rapture on them all or ct first ?
balmy condor
where it's a lot of stuff that should've been up before the shiv
being cast in the shiv
balmy condor
in aoe rotation when i use garrot on 4 man After i must use rapture on them al...
depends on your pack size and if there's something you want to prio down
usually CT is fine
muted maple
dayum howd you get rapture on your rogue
eternal lance
usually CT is fine
and i have daggers bleeds of necro lord
muted maple
i want that
blazing dirge
well you shouldn't mut gar snd in your first window
alright thanks so much
balmy condor
eternal lance
shiv is important spell ? when i must use shiv i dont know what is it
balmy condor
you shiv on cooldown
eternal lance
omm
ty ❤️
you guys help me so much
i have i lvl 208 and my overall damage is 4.8 5.1
loveu guys
limber lion
green plover
the opener usually is mutilate-snd-mutilate-garrote-(second mutilate depends on cp´s)-rupture - 2x mutilate - shiv - vendetta (+trinkets etc) - vanish - envenom
on pure ST
edgy notch
mut snd mut gar vend flag rup shiv vanish mut to 5, env
Is it an option to ......rupture-mut-mut-shiv-vanish- envenom
balmy condor
sure
green plover
and in my oppinion deeper strategem performes better on patchwork fights
balmy condor
you can do whatever you want in your opener as long as you don't troll your MA windows
edgy notch
sure
but i think with ur opener you have more energy (when opening without hero) and the 2nd vendetta lines up better with the 2nd vanish
balmy condor
literally does not matter
edgy notch
it kind of does. when you mut-mut-shiv-vanish- envenom it sometimes happens that u are nearly energy starved in ma window (depending on heroism, crits and blindside procs... for example at denathrius) . thats why i think yours is better
balmy condor
no
it actually doesn't
you can change 4-5 gcds in the opener
and it will change
literally nothing
fathom lynx
Mut Mut > pool energy - Shiv vanish Envenom and it's solved
balmy condor
it doesn't matter
stop telling yourself that openers have to be some magical set combination of abilities
thats not how the game works
fathom lynx
I love theorycrafting openers but whispyr is right; I wish he wasn't in this specific case.
subtle kiln
stop telling yourself that openers have to be some magical set combination of ab...
then how do i use my favorite streamers cast sequence opener?
opal viper
Dont you all use the Swifty Oneshot Macro?
balmy condor
the community loves overcomplicating specs like sin in the name of min-maxing and the desire to optimize
and that's noble and all
but some things just aren't worth it man
subtle kiln
just accept its simplicity
balmy condor
"oh but I should get 3 envenoms in my shiv window"
no
no you shouldn't
just slam it on cd
"but that's so simple"
yes
subtle kiln
and realize it’s still more complicated than BM
balmy condor
just slam it on cd
"oh but what if I rupture before the flag, and not after the flag in my opener"
doesn't matter
just do whatever you want
"but isn't it better to do one?"
not really
just do whatever
edgy notch
stop telling yourself that openers have to be some magical set combination of ab...
thats not what i m doing... it just feels better. For example on denathrius , when u use 2 vendetta-vanish on cooldowns in 1st phase and then on duskhollow in 2nd. vendetta and vanish line up better when u do your burst on duskhollow
balmy condor
"oh but vanish envenom mutilate into another envenom"
subtle kiln
just don’t vendettas 2 seconds before a boss intermission
balmy condor
probably not worth it
just don't do that
"oh but mut env mut?"
sure
that's fine too
literally just all day in this channel is people trying to overcomplicate a spec that is incredibly easy
edgy notch
of course you are right. but on denathrius it feels better
arctic walrus
@balmy condor this is why this class is getting nowhere
You need STRICT guidelines
subtle kiln
it’s better at 36% crit
arctic walrus
Nobody takes a spec seriously when you procced to tell them nothing matters
balmy condor
You need STRICT guidelines
like ⚠️ ⚠️ CAST EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN ⚠️ ⚠️
edgy notch
like ⚠️ ⚠️ CAST EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN ⚠️ ⚠️
on a patchwerk fight yes
zinc frost
Alright gonna pop distract during vanish window, gotcha
subtle kiln
he’s just a slave to sims
too bad we don’t have real assa streamers to follow. just youtubers
arctic walrus
POOL 73 ENERGY BEFORE SHIV FOR 3 ENVENOMS FLAG BEFORE FINISHER TO MAXIMIZE STACKS ALL STATS MATTER CONSTANTLY BE KEEPING UP WITH YOUR WEIGHTS
Sell it to me man
subtle kiln
!bis
edgy notch
but in the denathrius example with cooldown line up on duskollow your opener feels better
zinc frost
What happens if I pool 75?
balmy condor
What happens if I pool 75?
death instantly
subtle kiln
What happens if I pool 75?
you explode
solar hare
You die
arctic walrus
DPS LOSS AND THEN BENCHED CUZ YOU’RE DOGSHIT
zinc frost
I’m in..
desert rain
But what if doomblade is falling of and shiv is off cd should I just vanish for garotte or reapply my poisons mid combat instead? Pls thank you
balmy condor
I should make a guide of my own for rotation
and literally just copy paste a sim cast sequence
in entirety
subtle kiln
too bad that Diet Koji guy isn’t around. he’s give us proper opening optimization
solar hare
I think they have an addon for that
balmy condor
"well you seem to give a lot of shit about the opener, why not memorize the rest of it you fucking casual pleb"
zinc frost
You say that as if people still won’t ask questions and min max your rotation
balmy condor
if you don't have the muscle memory
edgy notch
"well you seem to give a lot of shit about the opener, why not memorize the rest...
u don t get what i m saying
bleak glacier
anyone know if vanish negates damage from soul spikes on frieda council of blood
balmy condor
u don t get what i m saying
homie I ain't even talking to you anymore
edgy notch
kk
balmy condor
that conversation long gone
subtle kiln
But what if doomblade is falling of and shiv is off cd should I just vanish for ...
if your vanish is up, your vendetta is up. rinse and repeat opener cd priority
balmy condor
i watch a bunch of troll flexing
troll questions get troll answers
desert rain
if your vanish is up, your vendetta is up. rinse and repeat opener cd priority
I was joking tho
subtle kiln
I was joking tho
your jokes suck
solar hare
@balmy condor 
desert rain
I guess the reapply poisons during combat was too subtle for you
subtle kiln
I guess the reapply poisons during combat was too subtle for you
nope. literally make better jokes
solar hare
Brutal
desert rain
Well, why are you answering a bad joke with a serious answer then?
subtle kiln
expecting a serious answer from me in a spec channel. you’re slowly figuring out this comedy stick.
subtle kiln
glad to be of service.
thin trout
!wis
mossy crown
What soul bind do people run in m+, particularly Ventyhr?
frozen jasper
What soul bind do people run in m+, particularly Ventyhr?
Theotar for venthyr
subtle kiln
What soul bind do people run in m+, particularly Ventyhr?
Nadjia
mossy crown
Oh difference of opinions
subtle kiln
actual serious answer. i use theo for outlaw.
frozen jasper
I Guess it isnt much of a differentere there, most important thing is LS conduit
Correct me if im wrong
subtle kiln
i run this as assa to swap easily in rest areas.
frozen jasper
You could swap soulbind just as easy tho
subtle kiln
i use 2x potency for outlaw with Theo
frozen jasper
i use 2x potency for outlaw with Theo
Did they fix the shit where you get knocked out of stealth by powerword shield and some other stuff?
honest rain
hi, maybe im blind but which legendary is optimal for m+ ~15
balmy condor
ma/zold
subtle kiln
depends on the week and what you want to focus on.
honest rain
and overall?
subtle kiln
do you play outlaw too?
balmy condor
ma/zold
subtle kiln
zoldyck
honest rain
ok ty
empty tide
Renom 
limpid spade
Hi which leg takes to pve ? Doomblade or Zoldyck ?
balmy condor
doom in raid, zold for sire/aoe/m+
limpid spade
and for progress ? ( next patch )
subtle kiln
🔮
limpid spade
^^
arctic walrus
Yeah but that means more torghast
edgy mango
Moreghast, hehe.
empty tide
has anyone ever crafted the thorgast legendary
that increases phantasma gaining
probably not right
balmy condor
nop
arctic cloud
empty tide
ye, the lego should give a crazy buff for people even consider crafting it
but since thorgast is a joke
neat cairn
I guess it's good if you're not mythic geared out and have extra soul ash so you can push Twisting Corridors solo
dense hamlet
buff ttb
stoic needle
ok i'm back
stoic needle
i use 2x potency for outlaw with Theo
You do 1x potency + wasteland in m+ for sin
neat cairn
So I haven't played Sin rogue since BFA ( 
) and I've been analyzing all the stuff that's changed. The guides on several sites (including this Discord's) don't all add up so I am peeping logs. For rotation/opener, is it better to cast Flagellation at start or hold? Because a lot of the logs I'm looking at, Flag is cast first but the rotation/opener guides for all except wowhead's says to save for Vendetta (for opener)
tender folio
Full mirror network set collected for Venth :3
stoic needle
empty tide
@neat cairn usually you go mut > snd > mut > gar > vendetta flag > rupture > shiv > vanish > mut > env > mut
neat cairn
if I get Ambush procs in between, I hold them until Vendetta right?
though makes me wonder why a lot of these logs i'm looking at, flag is cast on open
subtle tundra
wdym by on open
can you link one of those logs?
neat cairn
sec
neat cairn
Yeah that's the one I'm looking at.
empty tide
<@!118567087055568898> usually you go mut > snd > mut > gar > vendetta flag > r...
he did this one
neat cairn
Then why does it show at like 00:01?
neat cairn
Then wtf is with the timeline doing that?
stoic needle
That timeline isn't correct
fallen fable
A question, doomblade bis for ST?
neat cairn
Idk how it wouldn't be. It's the same log where I turned off everything but Flagellation
fallen fable
where to put it?
stoic needle
I mean you can see the actual cast order if you click casts
fallen fable
empty tide
you can check the replay and click on his character
neat cairn
I get that but is there any explanation as to why the timeline graph in particular is not portraying the same information?
And is it always like that?
neat cairn
Still looking at Famous
empty tide
kaasbar is the mage lol
empty tide
oh yeah nvm, cause its on another language
neat cairn
neat cairn
If I go to his Casts it states where Flag is accurately
It's just the timeline w here it's showing Flag at the start
So it's like ????
stoic needle
I've never used that timeline for anything
warm parcel
That graph isnt cast timeline
its the dps graph by spells
so its not for anything youre looking for
neat cairn
So then what's the difference between the casts graph and spells graph
Besides the obvious in words
empty tide
cast timelines should always have what you look for
neat cairn
Alrighty
dense hamlet
can we take flag out of gcd allready man
empty tide
ah its fine, we should be happy that they got vendetta out
stoic needle
I mean flag is basically kingsbane
empty tide
remember bfa vibes
stoic needle
Toxic blade being combined with shiv is just whack
empty tide
shiv is a passive toxic blade, so we dont need to spend a talent
neat cairn
tru
empty tide
like imagine having to play toxic blade and not being able to get alacrity
this patch
stoic needle
They shouldve just made tb baseline instead of tying it to our utility ability 
neat cairn
^
I hate Ambush
I had to change my whole playstyle last expac. Now I gotta' change it again
fallen fable
Do i open with ambush or mutilate from stealth?
stoic needle
Imagine if ambush actually did damage though
neat cairn
Mut
empty tide
mut
stoic needle
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
fallen fable
kty
empty tide
ambush only on procs
passive snd was dream too
now just give us smoke bomb and we good
fallen fable
I use vanish on CD only if im MA talented? right?
Sorry for many questions im new in this spec, just made a doomblade...
empty tide
i mean, if you are play either sub or nightstalker, you should vanish on vendetta as well so
you always vanish on cd
empty tide
vanish is always 2 min for sin so, you always gonna have it up for vendetta
neat cairn
Vendetta right before Vanish or right after Vanish?
empty tide
people usually vendetta with flag
so you vanish mut env mut for maximum damage and cp usage on flag
neat cairn
So basically within that same 3-4 second window like the opener?
just with env in there
gotta build that muscle memory back up hh
neat cairn
lookng back at that same log, he went vend > mut > flag > van > env as he used rupture 5 seconds before (probably due to having to wait on the cds from the no-attack phase)
er probably had to move
empty tide
its fine to vanish > env as well
especially on second vendetta since you dont need to do the long openner
as long as you pump on vendetta flag window, you are fine
also this guy gets 4 PI's every fight so hes a cheater 
turbid geyser
Wow thanks, that is exactly what happend to me. I went straight for Thorgast and did not complete the quest first. I did not know I could not loot legendaries like this 😔 😄
leaden garden
Hey guys, anyone here has experience of outlaw vs asa in 20+ keys? Wondering if I should play asa mainspecc for all pve content
uneven summit
Main, Mangle with anything with Doomblade?
blissful storm
do we want to refresh garrote/rupture inside vendetta or vendetta+shiv window?
wet lava
i doubt you want to be using garrote or rupture while in a shiv window
vendetta maybe if they are about to fall off
hopefully someone else can confirm
wet lava
Hey guys, anyone here has experience of outlaw vs asa in 20+ keys? Wondering if ...
You if you are pushing keys it's probably outlaw. Outlaw does a decent job in Nathria too but sin for SURE pumps way more damage into bosses
crimson grove
is it worth using crimson tempest on bosses (for m+, not raiding obv) or should i just keep pumping envenoms
lean rover
is it worth using crimson tempest on bosses (for m+, not raiding obv) or should ...
if you have CT, maintain CT outside of shiv window
crimson grove
gotcha tyty
slow marsh
Main, Mangle with anything with Doomblade?
Always lashing but sim it. It sounds like a nice combo but don't think it's quite there. But I only have 213 maim
blissful storm
i doubt you want to be using garrote or rupture while in a shiv window
can anyone confirm?
lean rover
garrote is not a pb, rupture should be avoid in shiv window
lofty yarrow
garrote is not a pb, rupture should be avoid in shiv window
What’s “PB” ?
loud trench
Your garrote and rupture should be outside the shiv window to maximize your 3 envenoms. If it falls off during shiv window it’s a net loss I believe to spend the cps on rupture and the gcd on garrote. Do it after, much like shadow dance for sub
But ideally your keeping rupture and garrote up prior to the window so that doesn’t happen
Sin isn’t as spammy as the other specs, your basically playing a dot class and waiting for big damage windows and spending the remaining cps on non shiv window envenoms if everything else is not a higher priority
alpine garden
So is it better to re-up garrote/rupture ahead of shiv coming off CD earlier than pandemic timing or let them drop off during shiv and re-apply after?
loud trench
The pandemic timing is just best case scenario. In that case it would be better to apply before, assuming you can get back to 4 cps, shiv and then enter your envenom window
lean rover
What’s “PB” ?
A problem* 😅 . Garrote is less problematic as it contribute to cp even if ideally you want to refresh it before shiv window
strange python
I wish theyd bring corruption back
Although I despised it at the time - it was awesome to play with lol
loud trench
If everything falls off right at the same time it’s better to mut to 4, shiv to 5, start envenom window (vanish after shiv if it’s up with vendetta). Then reapply, is my understanding rather than delay 10 seconds and 5-6 GCDs for less powerful dots. If you look at logs most of your damage is inside those windows so, more windows is more damage, probably not best to delay them at all
onyx wind
refreshing garrote in shiv window isnt that bad, since it can put u into 4-5-6 cp range for envenom
also, rupture pandemic is at 8-10 seconds, so you can give up a few ticks of rupture and reapply it early
or just reapply it after shiv, since shiv is same duration
glacial shuttle
Are world bosses the only way to get the Lashing Scars conduit?
At a decent ilvl I mean
onyx wind
No, you can get them from callings at 200 ilvl
glacial shuttle
Doees it matter about the ilvl?
neat jacinth
Quick question regarding M+: i play the NS, MfD, MA build and i really enjoy it, but does Vanish work with NS infight?
amber plover
trying to optimise assa a bit and saw that most top rogues use rupture (right) before vendetta. wouldn't it make sense to use it in the vendetta window or does the damage increase not apply to dots? also does increased critchance from master assassin not apply to dots?
fierce tulip
Quick question regarding M+: i play the NS, MfD, MA build and i really enjoy it,...
yes
plain thistle
trying to optimise assa a bit and saw that most top rogues use rupture (right) b...
its dynamic, doesnt matteer, vendetta will buff the rupture damage
MA legendary and MA talents both increase crit chance for dots, also dynamic and doesnt snapshot
fierce tulip
its dynamic, doesnt matteer, vendetta will buff the rupture damage
They use right before so they can spam more envenoms in vendetta window
oops wrong person to reply too
amber plover
man this game is too easy. why wouldnt that snapshot and reward good gameplay? -.-
fierce tulip
i mean you get rewarded by doing it before so you do more dmg by not reapplying dots
amber plover
yeah before aka "on cd" lol
plain thistle
yeah, that also doesnt matter much, if you need to re apply rupture/garrote during vendetta you go for it, not a big deal
amber plover
yeah sure thanks for the answers
bitter crescent
do we lineup flag with vendetta or we use it instantly on cd?
amber plover
depends on fight probably. if you would lose a cast, use it on cd
plain thistle
generally on CD, but if you know you wont get another cast you wait for vendetta
bitter crescent
got it ty
plain thistle
or for fights like sludge, you save and sync with vendetta and pillar
bitter crescent
i was wondering mainly on shriek cuz i use it be4 interphase
subtle kiln
man this game is too easy. why wouldnt that snapshot and reward good gameplay? -...
go check out feral if you want snapshotting back
amber plover
nah im not a furry thanks x)
also if feral drops in dps, theres no alternative spec
plain thistle
I also save my last flag on P2 denath mythic, because we need to stop dps anyway and that way I can get flag with vendetta on P3, which is better for killing the boss
basically on CD with some exceptions
amber plover
shriek depends on your killtime. you might gain a flag, if you use it before intermission
limber lion
i was wondering mainly on shriek cuz i use it be4 interphase
On mythic it's recommended as the fights usually last around 3-4 minutes.
And generally it's just easier to use it on cooldown and then find places to get better use of it during progression.
placid dawn
on sludge I should always line flag with vendetta right?
quartz iris
Shadowcore oil or sharpening stones for raid?
peak smelt
apl saved flag for vendetta last time i simmed earlier this week. probably very close either way
drifting cloud
@placid dawn yes
compact pumice
Shadowcore oil or sharpening stones for raid?
!oil
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
shadow helm
eternal skirm sims higher for me
night breach
when the flag debuff is one global from expiring and you have like 3 cp, is it worth to envenom just for stacks, or do you just let it expire?
harsh hollow
Where can I find more info on the NS MA m+ build?
limber lion
on sludge I should always line flag with vendetta right?
Yes
limber lion
Where can I find more info on the NS MA m+ build?
By asking about it here
cosmic tinsel
Zandalari race got racial with loas. One of them - Embrace of Kimbul might put extra bleed dot on target. Does it scales with Assassin mastery and does it increase Doomblade dmg?
cinder fulcrum
Hey friends, newly rolled rogue wondering if it’s pretty easy to offspec outlaw for M+ without the need to swap around gear except for leggos?
cosmic tinsel
it dosent stack on doomblade
Shame. Would be rly nice synergy. Thanks for answer
scarlet rain
How much better is outlaw than assass in m+?
mortal tartan
i haven't played since first sin aura buff, is necro finally good?
limber lion
i haven't played since first sin aura buff, is necro finally good?
Yes it is, bis for aoe scenarios
limber lion
How much better is outlaw than assass in m+?
In dps? You can compare the Dungeon Slice sims in tye pins in here and in #outlaw
Outlaw has more utility though, which is another reason to prefer them over Assassination.
limber lion
Hey friends, newly rolled rogue wondering if it’s pretty easy to offspec outlaw ...
Yes, you just need a different main hand weapon for Outlaw as well.
mortal tartan
did the bone spikes do initial damage before? i feel like thats new
limber lion
did the bone spikes do initial damage before? i feel like thats new
Yes it did but it was quite minor. They buffed it by 300% iirc
cinder fulcrum
Yes, you just need a different main hand weapon for Outlaw as well.
Why is that? Is two daggers not sufficient for outlaw? Brand new at this so not really sure why
gleaming eagle
dense hamlet
limber lion
Why is that? Is two daggers not sufficient for outlaw? Brand new at this so not ...
Outlaw's finisher Dispatch requires a one-handed melee weapon
And daggers are not considered a one-handed melee weapon in Blizzard's terms.
Those are 1h swords, maces and axes.
cinder fulcrum
Ah okay, makes sense now. Thanks for that.
mortal tartan
i also like the nearly infinite slice and dice lmao
3 seconds per cp seems like a lot
limber lion
Yeah it's great, definitely makes the gameplay smoother
The addition of SnD was a questionable choice because it doesn't really do anything for Assassination, but then they added the energy regeneration to it and it made sense
And then they removed the energy regen from it again and it's suddenly an awful feeling ability again
But at least thanks to CTTC you rarely have to press it now :p
limber lion
So they've "balanced" around that
What do you mean?
final star
Melee hits are very high in our damage profile because of SnD
So theyve balanced other abilities to fit in with that
I'd love abilities to do more damage and melee do less tbh
limber lion
So theyve balanced other abilities to fit in with that
What do you mean by this? What have they balanced around this?
Not exactly sure what you mean by that.
limber lion
Because I doubt they've looked at our damage profile and went "Oh, let's buff Doomblade more because melee is our highest damage dealer"
limber lion
But they haven't though
They haven't nerfed our abilities
They've literally only buffed us
limber lion
But you said that they balanced the kit around melee doing high damage because of SnD
But that's just not true
final star
I'd prefer
limber lion
That's just the nature of the game during early patches.
final star
If melee wasn't our 2nd highest damage
final star
And our abilities did more
stoic needle
Just stack mastery
limber lion
Yeh same
final star
To make up for that melee damage
limber lion
Like
final star
Because abilities feel impactful
dense hamlet
they didnt buff flat and aura buffed cus u cant just give a spec flat buffs and not expect them to go through the roof
final star
And melee hits do not
limber lion
If they "balanced around our melee doing high damage", they wouldn't have given us 18% of aura buffs
stoic needle
Well they would have
limber lion
But yeh
final star
You're not understanding
dense hamlet
ur auto is like big chunk of ur dmg and if that was also buffed by like what the 20% aura buffs
final star
stoic needle
Theyd have given us an even bigger buff if snd didn't exist
final star
Theyd have given us an even bigger buff if snd didn't exist
This
stoic needle
Autos are not buffed by aura buffs
limber lion
Ye but SnD has been in the game for the whole of Shadowlands
stoic needle
I'm glad they aren't
dense hamlet
it would be through the roof
final star
And melee likely was highest damage before aura Buffs?
dense hamlet
literally 20% aura buff and if was flat buff and affected the autos that would be bit too good
stoic needle
Them balancing around SnD has been a thing since beta though, that's the main point
limber lion
They don't look at our damage profile and think "oh melee is high, let's buff the abilities and nerf melee to fix that"
final star
I'd prefer autos to not be 15% of my damage
limber lion
They just look at the overall damage
stoic needle
If snd didn't exist we could have a much cooler damage breakdown
final star
Because there is no skill gap for melee hits
limber lion
Because there is no skill gap for melee hits
Not necessarily true though
final star
You've completely missed the point I was making because of my poor explanation
stoic needle
Because there is no skill gap for melee hits
Getting good melee uptime is surprisingly hard for some people
final star
So it issss what it issss
limber lion
You need very high uptime to get high melee damage and because haste affects our melee, we need to maximize our Flag-window
dense hamlet
u cant just go AUTO and do top dmg and expect to log 100s
limber lion
If you play your Flag window poorly, you do less damage with melee
stoic needle
They should just remove SnD and aura buff us more 
final star
limber lion
But ye. They buff us because our overall is bad, not because our melee is our highest stat lol
final star
SnD is a one and done ability
limber lion
Melee is very high for most melee classes
limber lion
#1 for Outlaw for example
limber lion
Ye exactly
final star
I care about my damage profile
dense hamlet
like assa couldve ended like sub
final star
More than you it seems
stoic needle
Damage profile is inherently linked to class fantasy
Melee being top damage for assasination is very un-assassination
dense hamlet
are we going into rp shit
stoic needle
In one hit or over time with dots
final star
brittle pawn
Hitting a boss for 10 minutes is unassassiny
lapis bane
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
stoic needle
It's not just rp shit, blizzard makes class design decisions based on class fantasy all the time
They talk about it nonstop
limber lion
Killing an enraged Argus the Unmaker one patch, dying to a wolf in another.
That's the Warcraft we play
limber lion
Ye
stoic needle
Idk when you are supposed to be an assassin that kills things with bleeds and poisons, but just regular old auto attacks are one of your biggest damage source, more than both of your core bleeds, thats not a very cohesive class fantasy
final star
Yup agreed
stoic needle
If they got rid of Snd and buffed our bleeds and poisons more it'd fix that
final star
That's one thing I dislike about class design this xpac
Is the homegenisation of abilities
That some specs have
Especially when they are core rotational abilities
Why the fuck sub got rupture back
brittle pawn
I want to be a cyborg assassin that doesn't melee but has eye implants that shoot laser beams
Class fantasy
dense hamlet
stoic needle
final star
dense hamlet
this channel is going down hill pretty fast
brittle pawn
Lmao
final star
It never went uphill
dense hamlet
well its going down faster
stoic needle
"yes let's give sub rupture... And then give them absolutely no interaction with it or reason to press it except it's a dps loss if they don't"
dense hamlet
MAN gimme nightblade
final star
Shuriken combo pog
stoic needle
People thought having a damage amp tied to a maintenance dot was bad for some reason????
final star
Rupture is far worse
stoic needle
Exactly
final star
You cannot and will not change my nind
brittle pawn
So just give them snd instead 
final star
Mind
stoic needle
So just give them snd instead <:FeelsAffMan:393572389751095297>
But the shadow techniques synergy 
final star
You only applied it to prio target anyway
And now you have to rupture 3-4
LOL
Blizz rn
stoic needle
Sub is a mess of a spec
BlAcK PoWdER
Let's give the burst spec sustained aoe
Thats exactly what it needs
final star
Then
And hear me out
Let's massively undertune it
Whilst also making the bis legendary a buggy mess
stoic needle
Also make the most boring legendary the best one
final star
That's bis for me
stoic needle
stoic needle
They should just revert sub back to the wod version and call it a day
final star
stoic needle
Just press the restore button
final star
limber lion
This is the #assassination channel my boys
limber lion
Either way, it's not #assassination
final star
dense hamlet
gentle gyro
They should just revert sub back to the wod version and call it a day
sad thing is, you could say that for 95% of specs in the game
and for 100% of the specs if you replace "wod" with "SoO"
timid cloud
Smoke Bomb defensive is pretty poggies though.
gentle gyro
man now i miss MoP
carmine dawn
i need moroes to tell me "use it on cooldown duh"
limber lion
You don't do that with IQD though
thorny pond
The green guy in our raid when we watch the guilds stream from the bench
carmine dawn
monks?
im color blind sorry
someone tell me if theres proper usage for IQD so i can stop shitposting
oshooooo where are you
stoic needle
I don't have an iqd I can't help you m8
carmine dawn
phial/skulkers?
limber lion
You get your crit rating as your highest secondary stat
Then you use your IQD during lust to get crit
Then when you vanish you have 98-100% crit with the MA talent
rapid stratus
Is sin the way to go for sludge prog? over OL?
limber lion
Is sin the way to go for sludge prog? over OL?
Yes
stoic needle
Maybe I should farm an iqd ...
rapid stratus
Do you Vendetta pull, 2 and 4? or just 1 and 3?
limber lion
Do you Vendetta pull, 2 and 4? or just 1 and 3?
In mythic you normally lust before the 4th pillar, so you would use cds on pull, 2nd pillar and 4th.
rapid stratus
Aight sounds good, ty
autumn sierra
Are you guys playing Assa in M+ as well?
limber lion
Yeh
pure moth
Yup
plain thistle
see guys, assa damage isnt bad (mists +16 2 chest), that was a pug btw but tank only did 2 chain pulls
zoldick with subterfuge, no MA
ruby birch
i dont think anyone was saying assa damage is bad
plain thistle
well I know, but everyday we get people asking if assa if viable for m+
balmy condor
trash
plain thistle
outlaw still has gouge 
ruby birch
gouge should be baseline
ruby birch
i wanna gouge
balmy condor
it's too overbearing for single target cc
plain thistle
but the vanish argument, which was really useful last expasion (especially final season) is going away, because vanish is a damage CD for them as well
just gouge remain
kinda lol
balmy condor
what other class can lock down a mob for over a minute and a half
ruby birch
me gouge in classic, want gouge in retail
plain thistle
vanish and stealth actually, outlaw wants both too
stoic needle
What's wrong with rogue being good at cc
ruby birch
what other class can lock down a mob for over a minute and a half
while damaging it or w/o?
stoic needle
If we didn't have that there'd be no reason to bring us to any key
balmy condor
What's wrong with rogue being good at cc
nothing, but it is possible to be too good at something
balmy condor
while damaging it or w/o?
like a casting mob
you can interrupt it all by yourself
for like
forever
stoic needle
I see no problem here 
balmy condor
you just rotate kick gouge + long cc
kick gouge kidney
kick gouge blind
kick gouge cheap
kick gouge kidney
like
what the fuck
is that
stoic needle
Rogue power
storm forum
I feel like I save blind too much and currently wondering if I should just use it like gouge unless I'm saving it for something important (PF first boss, reCC an inspired mob, etc). What do my fellow M+'ers think about it?
stoic needle
Yeah just use it
storm forum
mm, I literally didn't use it once in my mists 19 yesterday
that's definitely wrong huh
balmy condor
I see no problem here <:Shrug:746234001714577490>
remember this the next time you complain about mages or boomies or something and I hit you with the "What's wrong with X being good at Y"
ruby birch
i mean correct me if im wrong but this week its just blow up inspiring little gubbers in mists and then kick one mob is it not
unless this is about the maze portion then idk
storm forum
more or less concerning the post-2nd boss part of mists, but I was thinking I could be using blind to interrupt the poison casts of other mobs in that part of the dungeon
slim kernel
Note with Blind that it doesn't lock out mobs from recasting. A great way to use it can often be to blind the channeled spell after the initial cast completes. That then effectively puts it on c/d.
plain thistle
you can blind the spinning mob there, safe CC
stoic needle
remember this the next time you complain about mages or boomies or something and...
Well the issue is that mages and boomkins have nearly no weaknesses and excel in all kinds of content... Rogues being able to cc the shit out of a single mob isn't really equivalent because we don't do mongo giga aoe damage and single target damage and have endless group utility on top of it
storm forum
ah that's how I should be using it against the harvest cast in the first part of the dungeon too huh
storm forum
it wont recast if I blind during the windup?
stoic needle
It will
storm forum
i mean they cast bolts too
should i not be interrupting those?
fortified weeks they can truck tanks if too many go off
plain thistle
looks like a tank problem to me 
ruby birch
tanking in pugs is torture
i failed a 17 soa tanking as veng because i had some brainlet hpala getting hit by 3rd boss frontal and blaming me for it when the dumbass is standing right under the boss's feet
stoic needle
On the other end of the spectrum I had a tank pull halkias in a halls 17 while I was halfway across the arena trying to get a gargoyle to use on that boss
Pugging is torture period
leaden garden
is crimson tempest a go-to talent for m+? or some ppl play posion bomb?
subtle tundra
CT only
leaden garden
okay thanks
odd flax
what's the opener on hunstman mythic with MA and 2 targets?
balmy condor
what's the opener on hunstman mythic with MA and 2 targets?
gar gar mut snd I guess
limber lion
gar gar mut snd I guess
Or be a gangster and hit the spiders next to the entrance before you pull and get your SnD rolling using them.
frozen jasper
Or be a gangster and hit the spiders next to the entrance before you pull and ge...
if the other guys in raid just didnt kill these little fuckers everytime pre pull
strange python
just pulled purple logs on 7/8 bosses i did on heroic (fuck council), as a dude who started playing a year ago i feel proud. sorry for self-praising i just wanted to share with someone 😂
echo cargo
good job man
tender bay
in pvp is it still doomblade on hands?
stoic needle
Yes
tender bay
thanks man
limber lion
just pulled purple logs on 7/8 bosses i did on heroic (fuck council), as a dude ...
Nice grats!
strange python
thank you guys❤️
tight ice
Hey! Newish rogue here just wanted to ask a couple of questions/thoughts.. Right now I'm 202 w/ 210 Doomblade going to prolly upgrade to 235 before working on Zolds. I'm just getting into M+s (6s-7s) I'm okay with my damage with MA Build, Sub can be a little sketchy at times (mostly getting useto managing another bleed in packs) but my question is for the NS build do i still open up with garrote as well as my vanish? And with Vanish do I use it to refresh my garrote? Or save it for Env/Rupture Refresh(fixed spelling)? And should I ever open with either FOK/CT for the extra AOE Damage on packs?
lavish quarry
what exactly is "until cancelled" on the tooltip of shiv's lvl58 update?
fervent beacon
Who here get PI? Trying to convince my priests to stop giving it to fire mage that can't still beat my damage
dense hamlet
yeah uhd is the prio on pull
destro dosent get affected as much
and 2 min mark mm hunter
if ur priests arent pI'ing uhd on pull they are trolling
fervent beacon
I made it easy for our priest to try PI because I made a yell weebo macro when I press vendetta
subtle tundra
cringe
dense hamlet
uhd gains nothing from Pi if he has no army
fervent beacon
Im making the argument that vend and pi are on 2m cd so it's just assigning a priest to me and we normally have 2-3
thin inlet
they are better execute
dense hamlet
that dosent matter
soul reaper dosent get affected by haste as much as ur kit
and if he dosent have army
dosent realy make sense
thin inlet
)