assassination

[shy dust]

I just read it as

[faint harness]

Since its always the lowest

[shy dust]

It will slowly gain rating

Like 3s does

[low girder]

that's how i took it too

[shy dust]

You can look at distribution of ratings

And 2s is the most condensed

[gusty mirage]

It has something super low at 2200+ right?

Compared to 3s and rbgs

[tribal marlin]

Oh you mean you can grind 3s by just playing a lot

but in 2s you kinda stuck

[fleet anchor]

No, this is just dealing with the fact that 2s ratings right now are ridiculously deflated for some unknown Shadowlandsy related reason

[dim temple]

Good moring from Eu 🙂 working on Ventyr now. is Lashing scares still bis or was there talk about Maim Mangle?

[fleet anchor]

Probably Blizzard messed up a formula somewhere 😛

In particular the ratings are very messed up in the US

[balmy condor]

Lashing

[gusty mirage]

Blizzard messing up a formula somewhere? No way

[lament mica]

the only talk about maim mangle is laughing at ass rogues for the fact they have to kill sludge to get a 226

[bleak sun]

Hey peeps which ilvl should i have on my toon to clear L8*2 like 190 ?

[tribal marlin]

Ok Ok

[dim temple]

@balmy condor thank you 🙂

[lament mica]

and the fact they choose that of all condis

[balmy condor]

I cleared at 195ish

But there’s been some buffs and nerfs

[dim shoal]

Whats the dps increase getting LS from 200 to 226?

[balmy condor]

So probably doable

[faint harness]

They know something we dont

[tribal marlin]

I like this better because I definitely don't want to queue up vs giga 2s fotm try harder just because I grinded RBGs

[lament mica]

[faint harness]

Main, mangle hidden OP, huge

[balmy condor]

I think like 50? 60? Maybe koji knows better

[lament mica]

its ok, just kill sire for the flag one

[bleak sun]

K not that far i struggled to clear L6 with 160

[fleet anchor]

Count the Odds BiS ✅
Planned Execution BiS ✅
Maim, Mangle ❎

[balmy condor]

It’s okay we’re all vampires
Lashing BiS

[faint harness]

Well this might be why they thought all these dps increases to assa were alright too

[gusty mirage]

Maybe osh is onto something with that ridiculous mastery build he’s obsessed with

[fleet anchor]

lol I mean doesn't change DPS at all just annoyance of RNG fishing

[balmy condor]

Stop it

[signal gulch]

put down the koolaid

[low girder]

Anyone else getting flashbacks to when NP was our chosen "BiS" trait for nya

[lament mica]

if u want big dam envenoms literally play feral lol

[fleet anchor]

Just means Assassination players get to keep farming the Maw more 😛

[gusty mirage]

Sorry I’ll put the clown gear away and be serious

[stark heart]

I suspect it will get nerfed

[faint harness]

More like, they have no clue about assa real dps

[balmy condor]

I mean I do too but shhhh

[tribal marlin]

I"m pretty sure they are lurking in class discord

[dim temple]

Are 9.0.5 out in usa now?

[tribal marlin]

and we have everything public

so

[lament mica]

no

[faint harness]

[lament mica]

in like 9 h ours

[dim temple]

ahh

[low girder]

assuming maintenance more like 14h

[gusty mirage]

After maintenance

[balmy condor]

Would surprise me

[faint harness]

Blizzard only lurk on official forums, its all they have time for

[lament mica]

ya 9 is when downtime starts

[gusty mirage]

We’ll beta test it for you EU dw

[fleet anchor]

I mean it's not like that particular thing is something they don't already have metrics on for which Conduits people use

[lament mica]

9 hours

[dim temple]

its 08:00 moring here i need to wait 24 hours

[faint harness]

Havent you heard about the maim, mangle build

Its gonna take off

[low girder]

they buffed doomblade

[tacit forum]

Assassinerfed incoming

[low girder]

clearly maim is now bis

[faint harness]

Maim hugeee

[low girder]

that's how it works

[fleet anchor]

And even if they don't, you just go to WCL

it's not rocket science 😄

[tribal marlin]

pretty sure maim and WPS are close to each other as 2nd potency if you don't run DD

[faint harness]

Well blizzard arent even doing basic science

[dim temple]

I only have maim 200

[balmy condor]

If it’s not rocket science why is sin going to the moon

[lament mica]

other specs got horrible conduits too, they just picked out of a hat

[arctic walrus]

it's time whispyr

[balmy condor]

[vapid dust]

is assas going to outdps outlaw for single???YEY

[balmy condor]

Yes

[faint harness]

Oh yea

By like

5%+

[vapid dust]

ooooooooooof

[tribal marlin]

10,000 at least

[vapid dust]

so excited

[stark heart]

it's an illusion, Exile

[faint harness]

Imagine playing outlaw or sub as a rogue gamer now

Self harm

[balmy condor]

I didn’t have a conduit for raid when I simmed last week. Simmed 5220, I simmed myself on ptr, almost 6400 with doomblade and full venthyr

My raid is gonna get their shit pushed in

[faint harness]

Just some casual 1000 dps gained in a .5 patch

[tacit forum]

I still NF... imma wait till next Saturday and try to lvl up this bs campaign

[stable arch]

Do you think it’s worth playing poison bomb in m+ on tyrannical weeks when the other dps are heavily ape focused such as fire mage or mm hunter?

[young pebble]

https://tenor.com/view/sloth-slow-stamp-gif-8535595

[reef axle]

Ok good to know of the major diff cause live feels so underwhelming on sin right now. But as soon as next week hits...

[balmy condor]

Yeh I mean to be fair I was bugged without a soulbind but still lmaoooooo

[strange python]

Do you think with higher mastery dashing + master poisoner could work?

[young pebble]

that'll be us playing sin

[faint harness]

Nah bro

[lament mica]

its not like rogue doesn't deserve 1k dps in pve tf. rogue just wayyy too weak for the fact they also destroyed claok in CN

[balmy condor]

No

[faint harness]

Well they can buff in moderation too

[dense bramble]

would be fun 😦

[lament mica]

[young pebble]

i can't remember when master poisoner was a good talent, if ever

outside of pvp

[strange python]

Rip - was getting those end of legion vibes

[dark token]

i forsee lashing nerf in future cause its good in pvp too

[lone pine]

legion

[faint harness]

They will just nerf lashing for pvp then

Thats possible too

Why nerf it in pve

Not insane or anything

[lament mica]

this is prob around where rogue should be though

[low girder]

the kyrian way

[lament mica]

numberswise

[young pebble]

as long as people keep complaining about convoke to keep blizz distracted we'll be fine

[dark token]

pretty nuts how they buffed sin like 8x in a row lmao

[tribal marlin]

I agree, but I don't think that "overtuning" spec without raid value is really the best call

[lament mica]

melee, no utility, need high ass dam

[tribal marlin]

but well they are experiencing

trying stuff

[dark token]

meanwhile sub doesnt get touched

[faint harness]

I think you’re wrong, nobody should be simming 7500 when the vast majority sim below 7000

[dark token]

goodbye sub

back to bfa

[reef axle]

When agonising poison was a thing was the last time it performed I think

[tribal marlin]

if classes were separated in 2 category from the start : Classes with raid value / Classes with no raid value but bigger damage, well it would be "normal" to us

[dark token]

yee mastery stack agonizing poison = in EN/NH

[young pebble]

what's nuts is how laughably shit it's been ever since launch, about time

[strange python]

But in legion mastery was just poison dmg

[lament mica]

but with the current state of the game in terms of raid buffs and the utility other specs bring, withour completely overhauling the game they need to just gives specs without utility higher dam

its not a great fix but its better than rogues being unviable

[strange python]

People also ran it at the end of legion with dashing tier set

[young pebble]

i still wish smoke bomb was baseline and worked like darkness

that would fit our lore so well

[faint harness]

Again, not necessary to be 500 dps ahead of others

And it also kills any other rogue spec in the process

[lament mica]

if war and rogue did the same dam wat would be the point tho

[faint harness]

Its bad design

[tribal marlin]

yeah ofc I agree with that. But still feels like bandaid rather than proper balancing

[faint harness]

But warriors are simming 6700 on st

[dense bramble]

how can i sim ptr build on raidbots?

[faint harness]

Its not even close

[young pebble]

i'd be cool with sin being the ST raid spec, outlaw being cleave/aoe, and subtlety being a pvp focused spec

[tribal marlin]

Havoc sims at like 6200 at best

[lament mica]

ya overbuffing to this degree i see what ur saying, but if they need to tone it down thats always an option

[faint harness]

Assa is 800 dps or something ahead of warriors lmao

[tribal marlin]

it's like 25% below assa

[balmy condor]

Ptr=1 at the top of an advanced sim, or wait 10 hours

[lament mica]

ya fuck wars, they have bshout AND rally

[faint harness]

I am more concerned about in-rogue competitiveness of specs

[lament mica]

outlaw would still be better on like huntsman/slg still, no?

[reef axle]

Would be nice if we got our raid buff back, but dh keeps stealing them

[faint harness]

The fact that assa is now 10% ahead of sub is dogshit design

[dark token]

i went 5877 -> 6,290 with just the patch (keeping all gear/covenant/etc the same)

[dense bramble]

where do I find it?

[dark token]

i have shit gear

[balmy condor]

Venthyr sub better than venthyr sin on sun king shield or nah

[low girder]

holy shit lmao, that's about what i should gain then

[balmy condor]

Find what?

[dense bramble]

this advanced options so i can type ptr=1

[tribal marlin]

I'm preping a meme build with Deeper Dagger to do some crazyness as subt

like 25k pull dps

[balmy condor]

On the main page of raidbots where it says “advanced” in big letters

[low girder]

doomblade with WPS might actually be competitive on the shield dmg tbh, something i'm curious to see

[dark token]

7% single target buff from patch

[low girder]

with sub*

[dense bramble]

oh i was on topgear, thanks

and where can I see patch notes for tomorrow? :d

[balmy condor]

Probably official forums, wowhead, mmo champ, icyveins

Google

Bing

Yahoo

[gloomy fern]

only use altavista

[balmy condor]

Alibaba

[low girder]

AskJeeves

[balmy condor]

I sometimes ask myself how people find this discord but can’t find things on the front page of wowhead

Is that weird

[fleet anchor]

Honestly lots of specs over 7k now

[open reef]

doomblade is only worth on ST, how about 2-3 target fights, Zoldyck still good ?

[balmy condor]

Yes

[tacit forum]

I want to see vigor out 🤞

[open reef]

thx 🙂

[balmy condor]

You play venthyr and/or are like 225 equipped?

[dark token]

i did napkin math of dps gain from sim keeping all gear the same against hungering destroyer stats

[fleet anchor]

It's at least like 7-8 specs with profiles over 7k DPS on PTR now. And probably would be more if Warlocks actually had an APL that allowed them to sim realistic numbers. 😛

[lament mica]

ele, spriest, feral, aff, udk im sure are all over 7k lemme think hmm

[tacit forum]

215 🥺

[faint harness]

Did that many specs gain dps from 9.0.5?

[dark token]

top single target without PI

[balmy condor]

But venthyr?

[low girder]

wait does deeper pull ahead for NF too

i thought it didn't

[balmy condor]

Yeh

[low girder]

fml

[balmy condor]

Not much tho

[fleet anchor]

Feral has simmed over 7k for ages and as a comparison to Assassination that seems pretty reasonable

[tacit forum]

Didn’t have time to lvl up venthyr this week. Maybe next Sat if work allows me

[balmy condor]

You’ll probably stick to vigor without insane haste

[low girder]

well i have about 300 being a sub boi

[faint harness]

Only reasonable if you play a game where assassination is the only rogue spec

[balmy condor]

I saw it pulling ahead at like 25% so you’re fine

[tacit forum]

I have 26%. Haste

[dark token]

im glad sin slaps on single target tbh its by far the best spec to play in raids from QoL imo

[balmy condor]

I forgot to close obs and just heard a follow from halfway across my house

[tacit forum]

What’s considered insane for shadowlands

[fleet anchor]

I mean I don't think the right argument is saying that all Rogue specs should be as bad as Sub rather than just realizing that a Rogue spec and especially a ST spec probably has to be over 7k top simming to even have a chance at a raid spot atm.

[dark token]

we should have one spec thats top 3 dps

[lament mica]

it woulda been better for them to buff the other rogue specs as well, but better one spec buffed than none, just knowing blizz

[faint harness]

Playing spec based on qol, i play for fun idk

[solid vapor]

SHOULD i wait for like 987987 months for mortregar to come back around or just make dashing? lol

[dark token]

qol = fun for me

[solid vapor]

just hit 60

[faint harness]

Lmao

[lament mica]

u know u can just do TC for that

[low girder]

keep doing TC until the first 6 floors are mort

[faint harness]

Are you a prepper irl too

[shy dust]

Twisting corridor drops recipe

[low girder]

lvl 3+ of course

[dim shoal]

u can buy recipes afaik

[lament mica]

unless by 60 u mean literal fresh 60

[shy dust]

From the respective wing

[balmy condor]

You can WHAT

[lament mica]

no other characters

[fleet anchor]

Unless they massively nerf Shadow, Balance, Fire, and Aff, there's really no room for a non-required melee spec that isn't pushing 7k+ sad as that may be

[solid vapor]

well i hdnt done TC at all so i dont know how it works

[low girder]

it requires exalted

and some other shit

[dim shoal]

ye with anima

[low girder]

idk it's on one of the NF vendors

[final star]

Exalted with court of night

[solid vapor]

well i hit 60 like 7 hours ago... but im 201 ilvl and 25 renown

[balmy condor]

Wtf that’s insane

[low girder]

yeah that

[solid vapor]

so not super geared

[stark heart]

nerf warlock

[final star]

Can buy legendary powers you don't own

[lament mica]

who tf is exalted with court of night

[final star]

Me

For over a month

[low girder]

i'm exalted with everything now lol

[final star]

[balmy condor]

@wild lantern 18 months ago

[lament mica]

EVEN MUSHROOM MAN?

[low girder]

of course

[faint harness]

Yea true, but they rarely do this to other rogue specs. Idk game is just trash i guess

[solid vapor]

so you can determine which thing you run? in TC?

[lament mica]

psychopath tf

[low girder]

Fun Gal is one of the best titles

[solid vapor]

how is that

[cunning surge]

HOW'S MY FAVORITE MUSHROOM TENDER

[fleet anchor]

They nerfed them for 24 hours. That gave them a taste of their own medicine, then they decided enough was enough and reverted it. 🤣

[balmy condor]

Run out run back in

[low girder]

you just keep restarting it

[solid vapor]

until its the ghost people? lol

[low girder]

until it's the one you want

[dark token]

imo rogue should have one spec be top 3 cleave and one spec be top 3 ST, always

then sub can chill in a corner for pvpers

[solid vapor]

will it say mortregar at the top?

[fleet anchor]

Rapture nerf was maybe the fastest full nerf revert I've ever seen

[faint harness]

Imo i think you’re a wacko

[dark token]

ww died for this

[balmy condor]

Yeah @faint harness

[low girder]

meanwhile fire can do a bunch of things at once

weird how that works

[balmy condor]

Oh he’s already here and malding

[tacit forum]

Honestly I still have to lose to sub rogue pvp

[ember stirrup]

What is the assassin's hast cap/threshold now ?

[stark heart]

Also when you say "ST spec" I am not sure ST is a niche, but then again it's really hard to tell WHAT our niches are. I guess Outlaw still holds mid pack aoe crown and some ease of target swap, but Assa/Sub..idk

[lament mica]

it does make sense from a game design standpoint for a 0 utility melee class to be one of hte highest dam

[balmy condor]

126%

[tacit forum]

Vendetta too OP in rogue matches

[ember stirrup]

Noice

[faint harness]

Assa players are mad delusional

[fleet anchor]

I mean if a pure DPS class like Rogue

[dark token]

exactly. Other classes have more raid utility and rogue is the only melee with 3 dps specs

[balmy condor]

It’s true

[dark token]

if rogue dps isnt top 3 why even play it

[fleet anchor]

Doesn't have DPS output competitive with the other pure classes in the game

Something is wrong

[balmy condor]

Ever get beta #subtlety vibes push?

[lament mica]

and melee... melee should do more damage than ranged by nature of being more vulnerable

[tacit forum]

So you can be a stealth ninja

[lament mica]

the fact mage does more than rogue and is ranged is so dumb

[dark token]

classes should have a power budget of utility and damage

[faint harness]

That was even worse

[dark token]

and has the best immune soak in the game lmao

[dim shoal]

9.1 shuriken storm revert

[tacit forum]

If wasn’t for the fact that I can skip everything in this trash game I would not play rogue

[lament mica]

blizzard decided to make claok not work with like 9/10 of CN mechanics

[dim shoal]

with dfa

[balmy condor]

Patch day sin tho

[lament mica]

but ams does ???

[dawn belfry]

besides lashing scares whats the best conduit for sin?

[fleet anchor]

I don't really hate on the DKs tbh

[lament mica]

i do, they take all the melee spots

[balmy condor]

Wps, also read pins

[stark heart]

well I wouldn't say we didn't have damage, it was just impossible to compete with DK mostly

[fleet anchor]

Any melee getting some spots is good, it's more the ranged I hate on 😛

[stark heart]

it still is

[dawn belfry]

oh still wps? i thought it was maim now

okay

ty

[stark heart]

I want feint to be useful again

[faint harness]

I would agree, unless i am forced to play something i dont like

[lament mica]

i know top #1 guild doesn't really apply to most of us but the fact limit brought 4 UDKs for so many of thier kills just disgusts me

[fleet anchor]

As long as ranged are still hogging 2/3rds or more of the raid slots, I'll keep hating on them

[balmy condor]

Can be okay

[lament mica]

mad utility and the best execute in the game at that point hmmm thinking

[balmy condor]

Only with doomblade tho

[strange python]

i should feel like im waiting an eternity on my energy right?

[manic harness]

Need to make AMZ tank only, or add a debuff so they can't be stacked

[stark heart]

but I suspect they can't figure out a way to make feint our "raid utility" as it was back in the time and not break encounters

[balmy condor]

Yes

[faint harness]

Forced into assa for the sake of ”i hate ranged” isnt very appealing to me

[stark heart]

so we are left with... nothing

🙂

[dawn belfry]

if i have doomblade is wps still better than maim?

[strange python]

is my melee supposed to be pretty high on my damage list?

[balmy condor]

Usually, yes

[balmy condor]

Yes

[dawn belfry]

okay ty

[strange python]

Ty rogue expert!

[lament mica]

he's a white weapon damage expert

[faint crescent]

Hmm does that doomblade armor fix affect our dps much at all?

[fleet anchor]

Feint breaks SLG to be perfectly honest

[stark heart]

they do that in m+ now as well, think 90-95% of my runs other dps are mage/hunter/boomie

[faint harness]

It was already included in sims so no

[faint crescent]

kk

[fleet anchor]

Feint is like old school ToS bonkers on SLG in particular, just out of pure luck

[tacit forum]

Doomblade + Dashing would make rogues a machine gun?

Eviscerate all the way up?

[manic harness]

So how much better is Zol after the Envenom fix?

[lament mica]

true that m+ "fix" they did was so bad lol

[balmy condor]

whispers piiiiins

[manic harness]

Oh

Sorry bb

I checked pins before I went to go eat and it wasn't there lol

[balmy condor]

Yeh I do that sometimes

[stark heart]

uhm I am not sure I get your idea of bonkers, I can't solo soak something that should be double/triple soaked by others there

[strange python]

thats a cute pin

[stark heart]

there are so many grashal zones you can't find that many rogues playing the game at the same time I think

[balmy condor]

I can make it more aggressive next time

[strange python]

No

[fleet anchor]

Not sure what you mean exactly, but Feint literally works on everything that is lethal on SLG and everything is spaced in a way that lets you use on all of them.

[balmy condor]

[fleet anchor]

Rogues are basically invincible on SLG

[stark heart]

right, but that's not ToS level

[fleet anchor]

I disagree tbh

It's just not really enough

In the context of the fight

To actually matter

[stark heart]

in ToS you could help your raid by solo soaking something that would require 2+ players like avatar zone

here you just help healers a bit

[strange python]

You can cheat death soak a quake if you already have the debuff right (im not saying you should but yknow)

[fleet anchor]

I mean that is a fight design issue though not a Feint power level issue

If there isn't anything to solo soak there just isn't anything to solo soak

But Feint is absolutely totally broken on SLG

[stark heart]

but feint power level is directly tied to design

that's what I meant

[manic harness]

God damn Doomblade wrecks Zol

[stark heart]

they are turbo aware of ToS so they make feint useless as raid-wide utility

[fleet anchor]

Rogues being essentially unkillable on that fight is a pretty big power level jump from average, considering our defenses are typically ass

[stark heart]

and we don't really have any other mean of bringing raid-wide because we don't have such spells

[fleet anchor]

I'm more using it as an example that in the context of the current meta it really just doesn't matter

[stark heart]

it's handy and I like being rogue there but that's not the same as amz/shout/etc.

[fleet anchor]

You can make Feint as good as it can be it still won't get a Rogue melee spots

[stark heart]

disagree

[lament mica]

no, make it aoe and we got something goin

[stark heart]

if feint is an easier/better solution to a raid to certain mechanic in a fight then it can warrant a raid spot

[faint harness]

What is the target guild level when you say rogue aint getting rogue spots

Melee*

[fleet anchor]

Feint is only "required" if the fight design in particular calls for it. Feint as personal survival is irrelevant.

[stark heart]

we just don't have such things anymore since I think they are afraid of it

[fleet anchor]

Melee slots are for raid buffs only

We don't have any

[faint harness]

Are they

[fleet anchor]

So Feint doesn't matter

[dark token]

i miss wod feint

[young pebble]

bring your wit and charm

[faint harness]

We used 2 rogues in almost every fight

Worked out fine

[young pebble]

if those rogues were udks tho...

wouldn't it work out better

[lament mica]

there are way more low level guilds that take the "meta" too seriously than u would hope to think

[young pebble]

assuming equal skill

[faint harness]

I dont think it would

[fleet anchor]

I mean, I'm in too. But that doesn't mean most high-end raiding guilds are going Rogue if they have a choice.

[lament mica]

altho i dont really know that from experience just from wat i've heard

[fleet anchor]

People bring players

[subtle tundra]

just cause it worked fine it doesnt mean it wouldn't have been better to get 2 ranges instead

[true rapids]

how do you get a high level lashing scars just pray for rng from venari?

[balmy condor]

Me go sleep, direct all pepeclowns to pins and have a good one, best channel

[fleet anchor]

But this is still the first prog tier of all time where the WF guild never ran a Rogue in a single fight so. It is what it is.

[subtle tundra]

youre best Whispyr around

[young pebble]

yeah pretty much, i got lucky and already had 226s before switching to venthyr so got mine ez

[fleet anchor]

Rogues aren't required for anything atm because they have no raid buffs/raid cooldowns

[faint harness]

Top 10 guilds still used some rogues

On certain fights

[fleet anchor]

Literally no reason not to just bring someone else

[faint harness]

But limit or echo didnt

[stark heart]

right but I see no problem with that happening on like 1-2 fights in the instance, of even certain phase being solved/made easier by Rogue. They keep telling about "our fights are set of problems you need find solutions to" and I get that narrative, but hell make my utility solve some of your problems better than anyone else. It can be done either by encounter design or by giving us more utility

[fleet anchor]

Unless you Rogue is just better of a player than your 3rd string Warlock

[young pebble]

yeah but we're also in situations where we get sat for mongo DPSers just because they can hit AMZ when the raid lead tells them

[true rapids]

Bring back smoke bomb!

[faint harness]

Probably a bad guild leadership problem

If these mongo dpsers gets in ahead because of amz

[subtle tundra]

first and second AMZ are just that strong

[young pebble]

eh sorta kinda but "bring the player not the class" isn't as simple as that

[fleet anchor]

I mean hoping this from encounter design imo is a pipe dream because encounter design has done nothing but push melee to the side for the last 3-4 years.

[faint harness]

I mean it is, truly

That simple

[cunning surge]

^

[faint harness]

Yea its bad to have 0 dks, but you dont work with 2 melee slots

[cunning surge]

A player who knows what they're doing as Survival is 10x more worth than someone who can't do SHIT as Fire

100%

[lament mica]

ehh it is, but there's some fights that are way harder if u do nt have AMZ like u can bring the best rogue in the universe, but having a bad DK would still make the fight easier

[stark heart]

well I don't think smoky bomb is going back and, frankly, I don't think rogue should have it back, ego class = ego utility. Maybe give us some crit aura or whatever we had in Cata or something

[young pebble]

exactly

[dark token]

wod/legion was peak raid design imo, everything after BFA started put melee in the shitter

[faint harness]

I would argue that most shit guilds dont even utilize amz, they just bring it because they know its a good thing

[stark heart]

I am just tired of paying for ToS disaster tbh, when will my debt be paid in full and they stop hating on the class

[final star]

Denathrius drops it

[lament mica]

how shit are you talking? cuz it doesn't take too much brain power to know amz when there's dam lol

i guess they coudl mix up magc / physical dam

[faint harness]

I mean it even happens in top 100

[wise gull]

If you have the best rogue in the universe, you bench someone in one of the other melee spots and bring the DK there

[lament mica]

they might misuse it, but im sure they understand what makes it good

top 100 guilds

[faint harness]

Well yea but not hard assigned

[final star]

@stark heart

[faint harness]

We played a dk on every fight, but we didnt play around it

Could probably have done every fight without a dk

[fleet anchor]

I mean statistically though, Push.. yes guild do bring Rogues but this has been one of the lowest periods of Rogue representation of all time even across less picky guilds

[subtle tundra]

did you not use amz?

[stark heart]

hello

[ember pulsar]

Sludgefist fight design makes dk equal to all other dps spcs (Well only not warrior with AP but who cares)

[faint harness]

We did but it wasnt integral to strats

[final star]

Lørentz gamers fact

[stark heart]

Feral is bonkers there tho

[lament mica]

facts

[ember pulsar]

Yeah forgot about kitty

[young pebble]

i don't think anyone is arguing a particular DPS class' raid toolkit is integral

[lament mica]

best spec in the game on sludge minus arcane mage cheese

[subtle tundra]

but if it makes using 1 less healer cd then its worth bringing over other melee

[stark heart]

(I suspect mostly due to convoke tho)

[lament mica]

well except disc

[young pebble]

but we are talking absolutely zero raid utility on rogues

[lament mica]

its 100% cuz of convoke lol

[young pebble]

versus at least some utility on other melees

[fleet anchor]

For Rogues to be only like the 7th highest class on most of the endgame fights as a pure DPS spec imo is just a failure of game management on Blizzard's part

[subtle tundra]

and amz is arguably better than some other healer cds cause its straight up dr

with 2 min cd

[lament mica]

and ya dk isn't so insane on sludge, which is why a lot of guilds just run as few melee as they possibly can

[faint harness]

Yea for sure. But i think the ”nobody brings rogues” thing is overstated and exaggerated in most situations

[ember pulsar]

If there's none mechanic that you can skip with cloak / feint then you just have to rely on dps but rogue dps in this part of Shadowlands is pretty bullshit

[lament mica]

thats not an anti-dk fight, its an anti-melee fight

[young pebble]

it's not "nobody brings rogues"

it's "if someone needs to be sat" it's usually a rogue, all else being equal

[faint harness]

But its not equal in any guild exept maybe the 2 best guilds in the game

[young pebble]

raids want their raid buffs

[fleet anchor]

Over 40% of Mythic raid slots right now go to Mages+Hunters

Statistically

It's kinda ridiculous tbh

[winter moss]

what about dks?

[lament mica]

thats so many hunters lol. hunters aren't even that good in CN

comparatively

[faint harness]

You what now

[wise gull]

FSY ran a rogue, that's enough for me.

[cunning surge]

MM is okay, like they're strong, but there are a LOT of them for sure

[faint harness]

Hunters were broken on slg prog

[low girder]

specific uses vs overall dmg again

[faint harness]

And also kinda broken for sire denny

[strange python]

is there a way to sim yourself in 9.05

[low girder]

also very useful on artificer

[strange python]

like now

[low girder]

unless you just had 5 mages

[wise gull]

advanced sim

ptr=1 at the top

[ember pulsar]

Must raid slots belong to Affs / MM's / Fire / Balance

[strange python]

ah k thx

[lament mica]

ya im not saying hunter is bad, just not good enuf to be 40% of dps specs lol

[torpid spoke]

are the soulbinds up to date in pins?

[young pebble]

hmmm what do all those have in common ...

[ember pulsar]

Range

But still they do more damage than most melee

[fleet anchor]

When you have 24 dps specs and 2 specs represent 40% of your meta you dun fucked up somewhere 🤣

[young pebble]

the whole design of CN and most dungeons in general just feels super favored to range

[final star]

It's also a fight design issue

Burst classes are favoured

[fleet anchor]

And all this is a very roundabout way of sayingf

[final star]

Over the consistent damage that something like a rogue spec

Provides

[young pebble]

disagree because otherwise sub would be really really good

[fleet anchor]

I'm honestly pretty sure Assassination has to do this level of DPS we are talking about

[cunning surge]

It's not a secret that Range is overall better than melee right now

[final star]

Sub does fuck all damage

[young pebble]

it's not just burst, it's cleave

[fleet anchor]

To even reasonably get a decent level of raid slots

[faint harness]

Sub is not a burst spec

[stark heart]

and that rogue topped p3 on Sire btw

[lament mica]

naw burst is definitely favored in raids and has been for tiers

[stark heart]

before any Assa buffs

(as Sub)

[final star]

It's exacerbated this tier due to timed shields

On multiple bosses

[lament mica]

u need to hit breakpoints, u dont want the same dam all fight. u need burst with cds. thats how the games been designed for a bit

[faint harness]

Not even remotely true for 95% of guilds but its whatever, opinions

[final star]

As well as damage amp

[young pebble]

feels like it is, whether the numbers actually make that the case is another subject... but shadow dance is the burst phase and you play around it

[faint harness]

It just doesnt burst

[stark heart]

dance is so frequent it can't be any real burst imo

[wide prism]

so doomblade is BIS single target leggo for raiding correct?

[cunning surge]

Yep

[young pebble]

certainly it's not combustion burst

[stark heart]

Legion just fundamentally broke Sub and DfA only bandaid that wound

[dark token]

unless you are progression raiding mythic sire yes

[final star]

It's not convoke, wild spirits, combustion etc

[young pebble]

agreed

[fleet anchor]

I mean the numbers don't really lie. All 3 Rogue specs combined only represent 6-7% of the parses on SLG and Sire. It's not like Rogues are a major part of the comp meta atm.

[wide prism]

what do i want for mythic sire? 😮

[young pebble]

zoldyk

[dark token]

i do think its pretty rediculous how egregious night fae is as a covenant for a lot of classes

[low girder]

i legitimately want to see an overall dmg window of 10s of sin vs sub after the buffs with just a symbols + dance window vs a shiv window, i bet it's not that far off

[faint harness]

Its because guilds drink the meta koolaid, not because its bad for prog

[dark token]

look at the strength of convoke, wild spirits, shifting power, whatever the warlock thing is to the alternatives

night fae devs had a fun time

[lament mica]

soul rot does not belong in that sentence lol

[young pebble]

yeah but metas aren't just random braindead bullshit either though

[fleet anchor]

Sure but I said "get a decent level of raid slots" not "be viable"

[young pebble]

they exist for a reason

[fleet anchor]

Getting raid slots is a perception and meta issue

If Rogues aren't gonna bring a raid buff

Or a raid cooldown

[dark token]

i dont play lock i just know the top 5 dps specs atm are all night fae lmao

[faint harness]

They kinda are, when most dont know why they are meta anyway

[fleet anchor]

Doing at least feral level ST damage is basically a requirement, or doing large Outlaw AoE

Otherwise just enjoy the bench

[faint harness]

Was benched on 1 fight this tier

Sludge

Because its awful for any melee

[gloomy fern]

its nice

[dark token]

whats funny is feral is gonna do the same dps as sin post patch i think and yet people will vastly prefer sin rogues

feels bad to be feral

[fleet anchor]

I think you are allowing guild-specific anecdotes to override what the numbers say about what guilds in general are doing

[subtle tundra]

but as feral you have balance as an alternative to swap to

its not the same as sin

[lament mica]

fuck that no feral player wants to play balance

[dark token]

i mean lets say a guild has 2 balance druids atm is it better to bring a feral, a sin rogue, or a 3rd balance druid

[fleet anchor]

I think people will be mostly ambivalent between them tbh, but there aren't many Feral players to compete with

[dark token]

what do you think most guilds would pick

[subtle tundra]

balance

[cunning surge]

People see a Feral and go "lol why aren't you Balance? Literal trash"
And it's like, you fuckin' serious m8???

[lament mica]

[subtle tundra]

cause its range

[faint harness]

The rogue

[fleet anchor]

Ferals can do 7k level DPS as seen on ST fights but still basically only 23 Feral parses on Sire so whatcha gonna do?

[young pebble]

like it'd be nice to chalk all of this up to "raid leads dumb dumb bring the player not the class" but that's not how social games really work

[dark token]

i agree i dont think a 3rd balance druid has a spot atm even with how good they are

[tight ravine]

Also. How big is Crimson tempest damage in mythics?

[lament mica]

boomy is pretty good on that fight too i guess is the issue

[subtle tundra]

this is about high end mythic raiding

[young pebble]

there will always be a meta and always be the perception that certain classes just bring utility that is almost mandatory

[subtle tundra]

not the average aotc guild

[faint harness]

Rogues are bad at selling their usefulness

[fleet anchor]

Feral players don't swap to Boomkin tbh.. very very rarely

[young pebble]

i know, but what about 5/10M guilds?

[faint harness]

What about HoF guilds, are those allowed to talk

[lament mica]

ya, boomy disgusts feral, but some have still been forced. hippo is an insane feral player who had to go boomy this tier

[gleaming reef]

im 7/10m and we have 2 rogues but they keep pestering us to go warlock lol

[dark token]

im used to having to play all 3 rogue specs due to blizzard balance cycle so idk i play balance/feral on my alt and its fun

balance for keys/cleave fights, feral for ST

[ember pulsar]

Well my feral didn't want to switch to boomy even on Il'gynoth

[subtle tundra]

i said high end mythic raiding

[young pebble]

perfection

[lament mica]

hof is high end mythic raiding

[young pebble]

i think he's joking lol

[final star]

I got a 222 rogue and 218 boomy rn so I'm a meta slave 😭

[faint harness]

So what, top 20?

[lament mica]

jokes... in this chat....

[dark token]

rogue and meta slave in same sentence

[final star]

Boomy and meta slave in the same sentence 😊

[lament mica]

he's sum1 who came from the future of 9.0.5

[dark token]

if you wanna be meta slave pick unholy they stuffed so many mechanics in that spec it will be good to next expac

unless they get zul'd which is a very rare occurence

[ember pulsar]

I haven't really touched rogue in this tier. Just meta slave Afflock 🙃

[final star]

Afflock 🤣

Borelock

[cobalt current]

Well, the moment raid cds arent aa usedul dks will fall out id expect

[final star]

Even lock mains hate aff

[subtle tundra]

thats not what i mean my dude like wr 500, but even that doesnt work to say a wr cause different raid tiers has different amount of CEs

[ember pulsar]

It got more interesting in this patch but still

[lament mica]

thats gonna be never though lol

[ember pulsar]

Thats correct

[lament mica]

how could raid cds not be useful

[ember pulsar]

Well. My guild made me play Destro on slg!

[final star]

Destroy good on slg

And huntsman

And inerva too

[young pebble]

well lots of classes have raid CDs that improve their viability

[ember pulsar]

Aff is still better in matters of damage

[lament mica]

destro 2 usually top 2 target cleave

[cobalt current]

This raid it mostly fel like every figjt u could make do with one less heal if only there werent as many pressure points

So dks and rallys came in big

[lament mica]

idk why i wrote so many 2s

[final star]

2

[fleet anchor]

Every guild is different and, sure, guilds aren't gonna bench some of their best players if they happen to be on Rogue. But it's not like guilds are recruiting multiple Rogues right now, or filling comp up with Rogues by choice. That's the point Push. It's not about your specific guild or not. I'm in kill comp for every fight too, but that doesn't mean if you swapped me for an equally skilled Warlock it just probably wouldn't be better. 😛 It's just about general trends and representation.

[final star]

Most guilds want one rogue

[lament mica]

aff is a padding mofo

[final star]

Two is a stretch

[lament mica]

destro brings big dam when u need it

[fleet anchor]

Rogues need massive DPS buffs to be viable because we frankly just aren't competitive with the top-end ranged at all DPS wise right now

[dark token]

one rogue on bench as reserve in case they become good again lmao

[fleet anchor]

Which is just a huge problem

[faint harness]

Well thats the thing. Sell yourself better and you got a spot. If rogues run around saying they are trash for everything how are they meant to convince any raidleader they should be in

[final star]

Hybrid class should not do more dps than pure dps class

[young pebble]

I think melee in general has been getting shafted (except WW monk)

[subtle tundra]

looking at exceptions to the norm as an argument isnt actually providing an argument

[final star]

😔

[ember pulsar]

Afflock is padding in single

[fleet anchor]

If Rogues aren't doing the same or more ST damage as Aff locks, the game balance is bad

[tidal gorge]

We're not saying we're trash, the logs are saying that 😐

[lament mica]

idk if i liek that logic. specs should compete aginst each other more than classes

[young pebble]

this is a super old talking point that i don't think makes sense today

[cunning surge]

WW is about to get hard shafted

[dark token]

its getting the blizzard schlong special

bad for the rest of expac

[lament mica]

ppl who enjoy feral/ww/enh shouldn't do 0 dam just cuz they hvae a healing spec

[fleet anchor]

Well it's also not super relevant because mostly Mages/Warlocks/Hunters dominate the meta anyway 😛

[lament mica]

bommies

[young pebble]

Boomkins mate

[fleet anchor]

They are good

But they don't dominate the meta

[subtle tundra]

its more that pure dps specs shouldnt have any dps spec thats not competitive

[dark token]

hunters 📉 this patch anyway

[lament mica]

ehh they pretty much did

[young pebble]

Were they not in every MDI team?

[lament mica]

limit bring like 3 on every fight, they have the best spread aoe by far

[young pebble]

Or close to?

[dark token]

the fact boomkins havent been touched is absurd tho

they are S+ tier in every form of content

[lament mica]

they were a bit

[fleet anchor]

Fire/Hunter/Warlock have dominated the strategies and meta comp for like basically every raid of the last 4 years

[ember pulsar]

What about poor spray players that have to give out their cd. Can't wait to see something like PI on rogue!

[lament mica]

FM removed, best leggo nerfed

[dark token]

full moon was removed from pvp only tho or did that change

[lament mica]

they really aren't S+ in pvp

ya pvp only

[dark token]

best leggo nerf was before the tier started

i dont count that

[ember pulsar]

Literally my comp is 2 fires 3 hunters and 2 locks and still looking for good boomie

[fleet anchor]

Rogue has been the odd one out of the pure DPS advantage for quite some time

[faint harness]

The initial argument was that rogues needs to be doing top tier dps to even be considered and i think thats not true for a majority of guilds. The reality might be that the community forces people to reroll, but If the answer is to kill 2 other specs for the sake of ”getting into a raid” i dont personally like that approach either

[fleet anchor]

I don't really see how there is any counter argument to this though.

[young pebble]

They should be strong, though. They're all DPS classes with 3 DPS specs each.

[ember pulsar]

If warrior didn't have ap buff noone would play him

[lament mica]

anyway, if by all content u mean all pve content i def agre boomy way too good

[wanton reef]

The bleed added from doomblade, that counts towards the envenom damage buff, right?

[young pebble]

Oh I saw your next message

Yes i agree rogue should be in that mix too

[fleet anchor]

Rogue is
a) Pure DPS class
b) Has no raid buff
c) Has no meaningful raid utility
How can you not argue it has to at least match the damage of the other top-end pures to be broadly utilized? It's just simple logic at this point.

[dark token]

if mage/warlock are the cornerstone of raiding for like the past 5 years rogue should also be as the other pure dps class

[faint harness]

Because its not consistent

[subtle tundra]

d) has no niche

[fleet anchor]

Now if that means dumpstering all the ranged specs instead of buffing Rogue then whatever, but the net result has to be that Rogues are putting up at least as big numbers

If Rogues aren't, then there's something wrong

[cobalt current]

Except soaking, tomb of soakgeras never forgetti

[dark token]

sadly blizzard doesnt balance around a combined power budget for utility and damage

[faint harness]

I never wanted rogue to become a mage type of class which only plays 1 spec in pve, and thats where we are heading. I think its dogshit design

[dark token]

its more about flavor and then some after the fact damage balance

[chrome ledge]

And zul

[fleet anchor]

I mean honestly the logic should simply be Rogue == pure DPS == Mage/Warlock/Hunter 😛

[ember pulsar]

Zultlety rogue

[dark token]

thats why you get such absurd specs like current unholy with like 3 niches stuffed into them

[lament mica]

but would u really prefer 0 spec by viable than 1?

[fleet anchor]

And frankly melee should do more damage than ranged unless they drastically change their raid design philosophy

[faint harness]

You keep saying rogue but afaik its only assassination

[dark token]

thats the only real spec tbh

[fleet anchor]

Ok, so you want Assassination to be bad because Sub is bad? I don't follow

[tidal gorge]

They honestly shoulda buffed sub too. But I'll take what I can get

[faint harness]

No i want them all to be better

But not 10% better

[fleet anchor]

But you said it's a problem that specs are simming 7k+

I'm saying it's not

[dark token]

i wanna see raz sin sim

[fleet anchor]

That's the damage we actually need to do

[faint harness]

Yea okay but that just means any enjoyment is dead for someone who doesnt like assassination

[placid mulch]

I don’t understand why rogues don’t have a raid cool down like darkness

[faint harness]

Because you cant argue to anyone that you shouldnt play assa over sub if its doing 10% more dmg

[subtle tundra]

but then isnt it the same with hunter and warlock

[placid mulch]

Some sort of dodgy defensive

[fleet anchor]

Hey, I play all 3 specs. I'm not going to argue that Blizzard hasn't done Sub dirty.

[subtle tundra]

what if someone doesnt like aff/mm

[lament mica]

then play bm cuz they also get wild spirits

[fleet anchor]

But I'll take 1 spec over 0

[cobalt current]

Every spec will never all be equal

[lament mica]

[faint harness]

Yea i dont want to play a class which only has 1 viable spec

[ember pulsar]

Like earlier even Afflocks hate this spec

[strange python]

Could be worse - at the end of the day at least we aren’t enh sham

[cobalt current]

Ask any survival player how op hunter is

[fleet anchor]

Outlaw is still going to be really strong though

[subtle tundra]

yea my guildies let me know all the time

[fleet anchor]

I'd be very surprised if I don't 50/50 Assassination/Outlaw next tier

[median igloo]

cto scaling is going to be nutty

[ember pulsar]

I make sure to let my guildies know it

[fleet anchor]

But Sub needs some work for sure

[faint harness]

Well thats where the difference is, i am brought anyway. So for me i would prefer If all specs are similar so i can just play what i want

[fleet anchor]

For now I'll enjoy that Assassination at least will at least be able to fly close enough to the sun of Warlocks and Mages to probably get nerfed

Because we all know what happens to melee specs that do as much damage as ranged 😛

[ember pulsar]

Instant regret after decision to nerf Afflock

[subtle tundra]

yea we saw WW

[red scroll]

Is assa really any good now after the 9.0.5 changes?

[faint harness]

Trash

[red scroll]

🌝

[ember pulsar]

It's always trash

[lament mica]

i won't wait for the math to say it: ass is the best execute in the game

[faint harness]

I think the delta between the avg to bad specs compared to the best are only going to get bigger. And i think thats bad for the game, even If assassination is brought to raids

They could have adjusted shadow priest, feral and frost mage. Not that any of those specs see much play anyway

[lament mica]

[faint harness]

Instead we go for the gigantic leap of dps in over the 1000s from best to worst

And doubling down on it

[lament mica]

nerfing classes mid-tier doesn't really make a ton of sense tho for the health of the game

buffing oth ers is better

adjusting mid-tier is fine

[faint harness]

You mean like wws

[lament mica]

i mean post-tier

[coral pawn]

has anyone found out how to progress in the venthyr campaign? im still stuck on "common ground"

after swapping

[faint harness]

A spec that has a lot of players right now and play a pivotal role on slg and sire, just got fucked mid tier

[lament mica]

im not saying blizz is following it perfectly. im just saying nerfing classes in pve mid-tier isn't good

woudl prefer buffs

[faint harness]

Yea i agree

[lament mica]

so that exact thinh doesnt happen

[faint harness]

But i dont see it reflected ingame

[placid mulch]

Or massively changing the meta in the middle of a pvp season

[dark token]

this is a pretty big problem yeah

we have 2 WW on slg/sire

yikes

[fleet anchor]

I mean what do you expect? This has been possibly the objectively worst balanced raid tier of all time from a pure numeric standpoint. 😛

Or at least in "modern WoW"

[hollow stratus]

I don't think it's the worst

[fleet anchor]

There is really no balance at all to speak of, it's just random numbers

[faint harness]

Yea so the answer is to further fuck that instead of attempt to fix

[lament mica]

less balanced than nya'lotha? no way

but i guess we should all just ignore that ever existed anyway

[fleet anchor]

It's definitely less balanced than Nyalotha from a numbers standpoint

[faint harness]

I think its just a sad time to care about these things, why bother sort of

[faint canopy]

yo 90% base haste assassin rogue in nya'lotha was fun

[fleet anchor]

Shocking as that may be

[stoic needle]

i just did a torghast where i had both CT and PB at the same time... god... if only

[stark heart]

They will make a lego like that

[stoic needle]

that would be a kickass leggo

[strange python]

oh man I just saw the message about extended patch maintenance

6 hour maintenance

[shadow helm]

they'll probs upgrade sepsis to spread later on

[strange python]

that means 10 hours or more

[shadow helm]

BET

[fleet anchor]

Numerically the damage distribution this tier makes no sense at all in terms of like.. especially the initial numbers were literally just a random bell curve with min/max ranges far exceeding anything in recent memory.

[stark heart]

Not so sure

[fleet anchor]

Nyalotha had outliers

[stoic needle]

oh no no no

[fleet anchor]

But largely it was far more clustered

[lament mica]

i just remember seeing a ton of bm/destro/dh/fire mage

fire mage was just gross

[vivid tulip]

I guess since IQD wasn’t buffed, it’s gonna fall down the trinket pecking order

[faint harness]

Introduce 4 new systems, do close to 0 meaningful balancing

[ember pulsar]

It's still. 1 min combust

[fleet anchor]

Fire was a huge outlier, but when I say this tier is the least balanced it's not so much just focused on a couple top-end specs. It's basically top to bottom

[lament mica]

well yeah

[fleet anchor]

There is literally no balance

[faint harness]

Probably overrun by the amount of variables they have to juggle

[fleet anchor]

The damage tuning numbers in Shadowlands are so all over the place that balance is not really something that even happened 😛

[faint harness]

Doesnt bode well for the future of the expansion

[median birch]

There is at least one Balance

[faint harness]

Balance of all things

[umbral rapids]

I wouldn’t go that far as generalizing to the next couple of years

But yeah

[median birch]

I'll see myself out

[umbral rapids]

It’s weird af rn

[tidal gorge]

The aoe capping was pretty stupid, I think them trying to create new niches with that screwed everyone up

[lament mica]

ruined m+ for sure

[faint harness]

Well especially since they never bothered to nerf the uncapped aoe to make sense

[umbral rapids]

It’s not more the aoe cap that some specs are uncapped for no apparent reason

[dark token]

pretty nuts the damage discrepancy this tier was worse than everything ive seen in past tiers except this https://i.imgur.com/iSeBIl1.png

[faint harness]

And fire mages uncapped aoe ability literally just does twice the dmg of sub aoe on low amount of targets

[fleet anchor]

Honestly that isn't too bad if you took out the top and bottom 2

[faint harness]

Its not creating a niche in my world, thats just bending over for our fire overlords

[fleet anchor]

I think WoW has always had outliers

But at least they had a "middle"

[dark token]

yeah for how many systems legion added (legendaries + artifacts) EN was surprisingly balanced except for Spriests

[umbral rapids]

Outliers but the middle pack is relatively balanced

[fleet anchor]

There is no middle atm

It's just jank random lol

(But Shadow was disgusting in EN)

[tidal gorge]

Well, I hope the sin buff at least gets me off the bench again. I think my raid has 2-3 (or more) of every single meta spec right now

Blah

[vestal wren]

Idk, a lot of players precieved shadow in en as balanced

[lament mica]

prob cuz a lot of their dmg was pad

[vestal wren]

it was obv. not but it was not seen as a big issue given how "risky" the s2m gameplay was

[lament mica]

unless im forgetting which version of sahdow it was

[faint harness]

It wasnt pad

[fleet anchor]

That because people just underestimated how good Shadow players could play it lol

[faint harness]

S2m was broken

You literally did 7.3 dmg in execute

[fleet anchor]

Always the risk with punishing mechanics like that

[lament mica]

[fleet anchor]

Game designers tend to dramatically underestimate how good players can be

Mythic Shadow players were able to stay in S2M just very significantly longer than anyone originally thought they would be able to

Plus Xavius design ofc 😛

[faint harness]

Viklund could be in s2m for up to 2 minutes or some shit

[fleet anchor]

Hey at least Rogues were good though!

[faint harness]

Probably not intended

[cold spoke]

wdym rogues never bad

[vestal wren]

back when #assassination was good due to agonizing poison

[fleet anchor]

😮

Gotta bring it back

[cold spoke]

mercy

[faint harness]

Playing necrolord rogue, am i going to miss out on the true assa juice

[subtle tundra]

my plan is to play necro a week, venthyr a week and then decide what to stick to

[fleet anchor]

Man open a random EN log

What a beautiful sight

[young pebble]

i went venthyr but i'd rather have fleshcraft over door tbh

[faint harness]

I like flag on dummies, plays good. But not sure i will enjoy it in raids

[faint canopy]

you do know that to come back to a covenant you abandoned you have to do a long ass quest divided in two parts that takes like a whole week?

[lament mica]

door is BiS for WQs

[fleet anchor]

All 3 Rogue specs at the top of the log, Warlocks down in the gutter where they belong. 👌

😄

[young pebble]

explain me sensei

[gentle gyro]

how

[lament mica]

the vertical ability

[faint harness]

Ideal world

[cold spoke]

very infamous moment for warlocks

[lament mica]

u can cheese up cliffs and get up bridges n shit

[young pebble]

ah

[cold spoke]

the only time they werent top charts

[lament mica]

its busted

[gentle gyro]

I do wq's as outlaw for that very reason

[subtle tundra]

yea, im NF so trying those two is insta, and if i decide to go from venthyr to necro its gonna take a week so not a big issue

[dark token]

wheres your spriest

[young pebble]

we can fly prolly in 9.1 anyway so they better figure out something else we can cheese with it

[vestal wren]

sub was actually not bad in the first 3 raids

[gentle gyro]

pls make grappling hook classwide ty

[dark token]

he needs to be 40% more dmg than next closest

[fleet anchor]

Warlocks had their one brief tier of being so-so and parleyed it into another 3 years of godmode

[vestal wren]

you just had to get boots legendary

[lament mica]

outlaw+door of shadows is bis WQ setup

[heavy trout]

yet, their raid spot was still more than warranted, due to range and raid utility

[fleet anchor]

PORTAL PANTS

"see no king rules forever, technically we had our one badish tier, can we go back to being OP again?"
"Ok sure sounds good"

[heavy trout]

makes sense

[faint harness]

So is thats what happening to assa in this tier

Kinda shit tbh

[lament mica]

why all the hate for locks when mage exists

[sonic iris]

which conduit is best to use next reset

[faint harness]

Here is 20% aura buffs and more buffs and more buffs

[cold spoke]

they fall into same bucket for me tbf

[lament mica]

u biased cuz of 2s?

[fleet anchor]

Assassination being buffed this much and probably still won't be at the top of meters on half the fights in the game 😛

[ember pulsar]

DG is every 3 mins. Combust is every 1

[subtle tundra]

pvp

[faint harness]

Probably not

[gentle gyro]

man ngl I miss soulshape

[faint harness]

Fire mage also got a buff

[round harbor]

so new sin is like old feral

just a st bot =[

[subtle tundra]

"new sin" its the same it has been the past 4 years

[faint harness]

Like it has almost always been then

[lament mica]

a lot of the fights in this tier are ST

[faint harness]

Glued to 1 target

[cold spoke]

new year new me

[vestal wren]

wdym assassination only got a 20% aura buff, 2-3% buffs to their best legendary items, buffs to the base spec, some qol changes, bugfixes(buffs), buffs to covenant + conduit.
So literally nothing was touched, it just naturally scaled well, as preach predicted

[lament mica]

even stuff like council u need bommies to kill the waiters, but ST is still the most important thing

[gentle gyro]

S C A L I N G

[faint harness]

Preach knew about these buffs and just decided to troll everyone

[round harbor]

cap

[cold spoke]

@vestal wren haste just fixed it come on

[sweet zealot]

I just realized smth... raids can drop potency conduits now, but the raid only drops main, mangle instead of well-placed steel

[sterile jackal]

Fixed an issue that prevented Envenom's buff from retaining up to 30% of its duration when refreshed.

[dense axle]

@vestal wren I think preach is more accurately predictive that blizz won't let rogue be too bad for long

[lament mica]

if ST is considered a "niche" its the best niche in the game by far

[faint harness]

St is always useful on prog

[ember pulsar]

Do Preach deserve !preach like on BM hunters discord i n 8.3? "BM is garbage"

[fleet anchor]

I think Preach just said random things and sometimes they are kinda sorta right if you stretch it enough 😉

[vestal wren]

^

[faint harness]

Every single boss fight requires some st pumpers

[dense axle]

Lol ok

[round harbor]

if you say enough things, you are bound to be right som,etimes

fortunate tellers make a living off talking fast

lul

[vestal wren]

In the end, if even limit lobbies for a rogue change/buff its likely that blizz will do sth

[lament mica]

yea exactly. no matter what fight, u always have to kill the boss s omehow

[dense axle]

I mean you might as well not make any predictions ever then

[fleet anchor]

I mean I don't think it's fair to say "won't let Rogue be too bad for long" when they let Sub Rogues sit at like -15 to -20% everyone else for over 2 years in BfA 🤣

[faint harness]

Weird how that works huh

[lament mica]

lol

[dark token]

send this to your RLs to get pi'd this tuesday

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/555477595601240065/818760879297527808/unknown.png

[faint harness]

Sub is not a spec

[dense axle]

Exactly

[faint harness]

Its an abomination, an afterthought

[vestal wren]

Subtlety was good the last time in ToS, what was a 2017 raid tier 😉

[faint harness]

Blizzard would prefer it didnt exist

[dark token]

but it was sooooo fun

[cold spoke]

was it tho

[lament mica]

its the "pvp spec" that is getting ousted in pvp next patch

[dense axle]

I meant the class. Not a specific spec

[dark token]

yeah

[lament mica]

[dark token]

i loved the DFA interaction

rotation actually felt sick af

[faint harness]

No such thing

As a pvp spec

[dark token]

you could do cool jumps over mechanics

[cold spoke]

dfa was just a silly accident

[dark token]

very unique

[red scroll]

for sub in pvp I need skill I just want to mongo the healer

[faint harness]

You have good and bad specs, no pvp specs

[cold spoke]

if not that mistake sub would've been dead since EN

[lament mica]

lol i put it in quotation marks for a reason. so many ppl thinhk that way

[eager delta]

!bis

[lament mica]

including blizz it seems

[ember pulsar]

Called PVP Spec when had less playrate than sin in BfA

[fleet anchor]

Preach was only right in the most abstract of abstract, since it was really the topic of s c a l i n g (banned word tbh) 😛

[dense axle]

Sub was killed in 7.0 prepatch. It's mangled corpse was propped up by legos/borrowed power in legion

[faint harness]

I dont think blizz looks at pvp in that way, look at fire mages

[stark heart]

Zul?

[cold spoke]

we don't talk about Zul @stark heart

[fleet anchor]

Scaling from hotfixes is the best kind of scaling

[lament mica]

idk, i dont think its a coincidence that sin got the buffs and not sub. altho its kinda weird outlaw didnt get more help

[gentle gyro]

Zul banished Sub to an alternate dimension

[cold spoke]

question remains: did we defeat Zul, or did Zul defeat us

[fleet anchor]

Fetid killed Sub

Zul deleted Sub

[faint harness]

Assa was on another level of dogshit when sl released, thats why it was buffed

[fleet anchor]

🤣

[dense axle]

I'm honestly legit surprised sub didn't see an aura or ST buff

[vestal wren]

i don't think sub was terrible after tos, it was okay-ish at the start of bfa (first 2 raids) and in castle. But never rly considered a strong spec

[stark heart]

Dance should not have cdr

[dark token]

archimonde wounded sub, ToS cut off its legs, fetid cut off an arm and then zul killed it

[lament mica]

ya but this most recent buff is a lot

[stark heart]

Legion design was a mistake

[dense axle]

Agreed

[faint harness]

Its just qol that translated to dps gains

[cold spoke]

if they could just bring the end wod sub snapshot and made it live that'd be great

[faint harness]

And bug fixes

[lament mica]

anyway, i think dps players of every spec deserve to be viable in pve

[faint harness]

Not targeted buffs

[dense axle]

Tis but a scratch

[fleet anchor]

Sub died for the raid designer's sins tbh

In almost every case

[lament mica]

u shouldn't have to go a specific spec i agree with that idea. u shoudl be able to play what spec is the most fun and the game should be balanced where thats ok

[faint harness]

Wdym, zul is a perfectly designed fight

No issues

[cold spoke]

i blame shuriken tornado tbf

[faint harness]

Not like any other funnel spec would abuse it had it not been sub

[dusty rivet]

are we viable yet 😦

[fleet anchor]

It's hard for Assassination to be broken like Sub can

[round harbor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH_HwFE4r0

[fleet anchor]

Because anything Assassination can do well, Warlocks and Shadow Priests can probably do better 😛

[faint harness]

Yea but then you have to play ranged

[subtle tundra]

i mean sub funnel was removed so they didnt have to constraint raid design

[faint harness]

And thats the most boring role in the game

[subtle tundra]

imagine sub funnel on slg

[lament mica]

naw thats tank

[cold spoke]

i can't imagine that

esp when adds are prio there

[stoic needle]

Did they ever give some justification for why they removed shuriken combo

[ember pulsar]

Please no. Not again

[vestal wren]

as ironic as it sounds
mage has now stronger aoe -> st compared to subtlety

[faint harness]

Did they need to justify it

Lol

[subtle tundra]

they wouldnt because you would phase the boss with first adds up

[faint harness]

Not only mages

[fleet anchor]

Sub funnel on SLG would basically be like Mistress

[faint harness]

Ele shaman, enhancement, frost mage, feral druid

[fleet anchor]

Good but probably still not top

[hardy berry]

Is our best legendary for pve going to change?

[faint harness]

Doomblade gamers

[fleet anchor]

Mistress was like "ok this Shuriken Combo thing is pretty strong I guess we should bring some Rogues"

Zul was "LOL"

[faint harness]

Well ppl didnt fully utilize it

On those fights