nah warrior takes just mfd > shadowstep > kidney
#assassination
rugged dragon
Except for if he sits Dstance
But yeah, people take alot of warriors for melee cleave, but I would consider Outlaw just as good as those
But back to assass, yeah. Other 2 are just better, assass has decent burst
late veldt
Is CT worth using during ST fights?
spice spire
Is CT worth using during ST fights?
No
stoic needle
Honestly I think that sin has better burst than sub, it can just burst less often and the combo takes longer
Ns envenoms are FAT
rugged dragon
Ns envenoms are FAT
I was doing pvp earlier as assass, and it indeed felt so good.. 13k crit Envenom
stoic needle
Also I don't think that sub is just straight up better than sin anymore. Plenty of people pulling similar numbers to sub with sin in raids, it's better in cleave and aoe, and single target really isn't all it's cracked up to be in CN at least
Sure sub sims better but there's very few people actually executing that potential
rugged dragon
I was actually able to perform just as good as my sub rogue in my raiding team..
stoic needle
In all the pugs I did this weekend in heroic I either matched or beat sub rogues with the same ilvl as me
Except on sun king... Fuck sun king lmao
stoic needle
It was fun to suprise people with how much damage we could do
rich yew
@stoic needle what is your stat distribution currently?
And have you noticed any point that it started to feel good when replacing gear?
rugged dragon
My haste is terrible, but I still managed to pull the same as my sub rogue partner.
rich yew
I'm waiting untill a dagger drops so I can pickup sin again
rugged dragon
I played outlaw, so I just grabbed a PvP dagger, cuz I used it on my offhand anyway
220 dagger
stoic needle
<@!502859708504342538> what is your stat distribution currently?
I have around 17% haste, 24% mastery, 11% vers, 22% crit
rugged dragon
My second dagger is absolutely shit tho :P
stoic needle
It started feeling good after I got over 15% haste
And then even better when I switched from venthyr to night fae
And over 20% crit
rugged dragon
It started feeling good after I got over 15% haste
Oh really? Im only at 10% haste.. But im at 25% versa
stoic needle
Yeah, get some more haste, its feelcrafty but it definitely feels better
I think the near constant mastery buff from night fae boosting the dot damage feels good too
rugged dragon
Well yeah, but when renown 31 is there
stoic needle
Lol yeah first strike stonks
rugged dragon
im still outlaw, only playing assass in heroic
stoic needle
Night fae gets 3 viable soulbinds, 2 that are basically bis
rugged dragon
soo muchh
willow oracle
Uh, aren't we talking about 3-4% differences here?
stoic needle
Venthyr gets 0 viable soulbinds 
willow oracle
Which is insane considering their usual balancing?
stoic needle
They are 3-4% SIM differences
Venthyr is basically completely sim bait because the soulbind passives are basically non functional in real gameplay
Because of their rng timing and the prevalence of mechanics that force downtime
You often get their effects when you literally cannot utilize them, making it essentially the same as having no soulbind at all
Trust me, I was venthyr for a month
Thrill seeker procs during every worst possible moment or between every pack. Soothing shade procs and you immediately have to move out of the sanguine affix or one of the 26 dozen aoe mechanics in dungeons or raids.
Draven basically isn't even a soulbind
And it's not possible to get maximum stacks of flagellation as assasination
It's shit
Necrolord is at least half decent
And kyrian's got one busted soulbind
That's the problem, they balance these things around sims and they don't actually play them
If you aren't a min/maxer it's probably fine, but if you even remotely care about your performance at least one of the 4 covenants is not viable
willow oracle
True, but if that's your mindset, do you really care about your covenant beyond "dps"
rugged dragon
Thats me rn
I dont care whatever I am, I just want top dps
My assass is like.. 400 dps behind my outlaw rn on ST
so thats fine
stoic needle
True, but if that's your mindset, do you really care about your covenant beyond ...
I mean I do, I actually care about aesthetics and story, but the design of the venthyr stuff is so bad that it's actively frustrating and unfun. Flagellation is not fun to use, it's not fun to waste the special abilities of my soulbinds because they're an rng clown fiesta
If they were actually well made i would stay venthyr despite the dps loss
I tried to do that
But flag is just clunky as shit
If it was just one that was bad I would stay
But I just can't deal with bad soulbinds AND a bad ability
willow oracle
In that case it's not a balancing issue imho but a "you built shit that's not enjoyable" thing
stoic needle
Well yes, that's the thing because theoretically and numerically they are balanced but in practice they aren't
I think this is really mostly a venthyr problem
I didn't mind the necro stuff at all, just didn't dig the aesthetic
That leather mog 
rugged dragon
Its so fkn ugly lool
stoic needle
It's just weird to me that venthyr is SO shit considering the whole first raid is venthyr themed
stoic needle
That's still better than the necro
willow oracle
Yes, it's a good set for priests
rugged dragon
It's just weird to me that venthyr is SO shit considering the whole first raid i...
I mean.. You always will have a shit 1.
stoic needle
Druid set forreal
rugged dragon
Compared to the others
stoic needle
I mean.. You always will have a shit 1.
Sure there will always be a 'worst', but this is like next level trash
Like barely functional
There are so many simple things they could do to fix it
Make the thrill seeker proc start on an ability or on flagellation use
Make flagellation not cost a 2nd GCD, lower the energy cost, make it give CP
Make theotar's soothing shade follow you slowly
rugged dragon
Why do all of the things generate CP except that x)
stoic needle
And does fuck all damage
Draven's built for war only giving 3% agility is downright insulting
When heirmir's gives that just for having your stuff enchanted and you also get the 18% crit proc too
They could buff the numbers on built for war substantially if they want to keep the health requirement
I'm just a player and I can think of dozens of ways to fix the venthyr covenant. It's obvious they didnt play this at all
rugged dragon
Kyrian def my fav
Either kyrian or NF
NF place is just gorgeous. And kyrian just neutral
stoic needle
Meh they're like death cops they're too self righteous for me 
Ardenweald is very beautiful I can't deny that
The art team really kicked ass this expansion
rugged dragon
I get so happy whenever I go to Ardenweald
rugged dragon
The art team really kicked ass this expansion
Yeah just revendreth is a horrible place
with all the elevators and such
But thats the only bad thing bout it
stoic needle
I don't mind it
spice spire
Kyrian just torture people until they’re ascended
stoic needle
You can get around creatively with gliders or shadowstep to mobs below you while you fall
rugged dragon
Like.. they could just change it to a mirror for example, where you go up as a teleport or smthing
rather than needing to wait on an slow ass elevator
stoic needle
Have you ever looked at the elevator towers? There's a mini shriekwing on every one manually pulling the elevator up
Have some respect
stoic needle
Watch they're gonna unionize and get even slower 
stoic needle
"Due to the anima drought, the servile bats in revendreth have gone on a slow strike. Elevator speed reduced by 50%."
I guess in general I'm just salty that blizzard has given me so many reasons to not enjoy what would be my favorite covenant
spice spire
At least the night fae area is nice 🙂
stoic needle
Is the queens court worth doing? I never did a single one of the ember courts because it took too fucking long to set up 
spice spire
I’ve not even unlocked the queens court yet I literally have the table
Renown 12 is cucking me though I gotta do the WQ for anima tonight so I can do the quest at 13 🙄
stoic needle
Yeah I'm not even at renown 7 yet sadly
Pugged 7/10 heroic and didn't get any renown
rugged dragon
Just do the main questline
you'll get alot of renown
then do your callings
Etc etc
spice spire
Done all callings, raid, mythics, and quest line so far. I’m pretty sure I’m capped from catch-up anyway
rugged dragon
21 is cap catch-up
spice spire
This week*
rugged dragon
P sure
stoic needle
My dumbass got 5/5 eye of the jailer before getting to the tyrande in the maw part of the quest line yesterday
So I gotta do that today
spice spire
Ohhhh yeah when you’re on a quest level, you’re hardstuck until you do the campaign
rugged dragon
The anima quest is a weekly quest, deliver it last. Otherwise catchup wont work
stoic needle
Well I can't get 1000 anima without it
Hm I guess I could pvp
Nevermind there are some ways
willow oracle
q_q
stoic needle
What to heck
spice spire
O
rugged dragon
Yeh you are in bg
willow oracle
Thanks Cptn. Obvious :p
deft patio
Anyone else feel like assasin sucks in m+ atm? Since we can never get stealth
We cant do high keys like other specs it seems
rich yew
How come you never can get stealth?
deft patio
Spiteful affix, and tanks almost always chain pulls in higher keys, i cant get stealth often in 14+ keys
stoic needle
I don't see why restealthing is any worse for sin than any other spec
You miss out on some subterfuge garottes but that's not really that big of a deal it's just damage
rugged dragon
Its alot of damage tho
stoic needle
Outlaw loses a lot of damage too because of cto from ambush from stealth
deft patio
@stoic needle dont talk if you dont know how all rogue spec works
People like you should never comment on stuff you dont understand
rugged dragon
Sin has the most dmg loss from not being able to restealth
stoic needle
deft patio
And if we dont get stealth for aoe packs thats even worse
rugged dragon
^^^
deft patio
@stoic needle shame on you, just take away your sin role you never played the spec for real
modest dove
Snap
stoic needle
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't played the spec
What the hell is wrong with you
deft patio
You have never played the spec, since you dont understand how the spec works
I have spoken
deft patio
modest dove
Rip :(
rugged dragon
People make mistakes, nothing wrong with it. Just because he is wrong doesnt mean he knows nothing
Not how it works.. x)
stoic needle
Moment of silence for what? Zuzzu's temper tantrum?
I just don't agree that subt garrottes are 50% of our dps, nor that not being able to restealth makes sin bad in m+
Maybe if you're a meter whore
rugged dragon
Everyone in high m+ is a meter whore, because more dps = mobs dead faster, dont think its 50% either, but it definetly is alooott
Cuz getting that empowered garrote on 3 enemies is nuts
near apex
I just got brain damaged reading that
pine torrent
real quick what is best 2 trinkets assuming same ilvl
stoic needle
Plaguefall Phial and dreadfire vessel probably
frigid sleet
for what content
pine torrent
raid/m+
spice spire
Phial of Putrefaction and Dreadfire Vessel are both great trinkets
pine torrent
what about the necrotic wake trinket
seems kinda strong no?
dreadfire seems good for pvp
spice spire
It’s fine, but less good than the other two
pine torrent
even when you apply it to both weaps?
i thought since rogue has slice we get more value from it
spice spire
Sims less, think it’s a general application iirc and I had it, and it got quickly replaced
pine torrent
any actual tests that arent sims on the strength?
spice spire
Assuming a 203 drops, it doesn’t replace my 200 trinket from sludgefist.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xacrhcy9MrJkLPsohS46D7
And yeah, like I said, I replaced it and got a boost in damage all the same
stoic needle
It's currently bugged and procs randomly breaking CC of nearby targets that you don't attack
Unless they fixed it and didnt put it in the patch notes
pine torrent
thats not ideal true
spice spire
Chain’s great. No harm nor foul for chain. I’ve not had an issue with the procs bug
pine torrent
but for the sustain and extra procs when topped
stoic needle
It seems fun though for sure
pine torrent
did people switch to assa after 8% buff?
stoic needle
I have a 213 anima battery from spires and 213 skulkers
Both aren't bad
I never swapped away 
spice spire
I wasn’t a fan of skulkers sadly. Though I think at 213, I’ll have no choice but to swap. I haven’t had a good trinket drop in my weekly yet 😦
pine torrent
how does skulker work?
stoic needle
skulkers is.. aight. Given the chance I'd take pretty much everything else. But it's good for pvp
It's like dreadfire but you are the projectile lol
pine torrent
i feel like i cant make assa rogue work for pvp
im necrolord too though so that might be why
stoic needle
Lol
stoic needle
Yeah rogue isn't a good class if you aren't good at pvp
pine torrent
im a decent rogue
stoic needle
It's like 90% mindgames
stoic needle
Sin has huge burst in pvp, probably better than sub but less frequent
stoic needle
Well yes that's because prot pallies are fucking absurdly broken rn
Nightstalker shiv vendetta envenoms
Are
MASSIVE
But you only really get one
pine torrent
ok so im not supposed to go subterfuge?
pine torrent
i have only tried 2s so far
stoic needle
Basically you want to constantly pressure them with your dots
pine torrent
i cant pressure cause they just pot it
stoic needle
They can only pot so many times
pine torrent
everyone i fight in pvp are kyrians it feels
stoic needle
You have to learn to stay alive through the initial engagement
pine torrent
i try to pop my feint before i go in
stoic needle
Restealth, with the stealth shield conduit
stoic needle
Dot them up, once they Phial try to blind them or sprint away and restealth
No sadly :/
You want to get them to blow all their defensives before you have even used vanish
pine torrent
i feel like good rogue pvpers should post a assa guide just so people can learn how to pvp
as a new pvp player in sl i feel useless
stoic needle
Then you get garotte and rupture up, MFD kidney, shiv, vanish, envenom
Boom fucking 15k envenom crit
It's not easy to get to that point I won't lie
But yeah I agree there could definitely stand to be more sin pvp guides
pine torrent
which soulbind is best for pvp?
pine torrent
i use emeni for pve but its not as useful for pvp i think
stoic needle
MAybe dreamweaver for podtender lul
For you probably heirmir
You want defensive traits
stoic needle
Sorry I meant heirmir
Actually looking at it again marileth seems sick too for pvp
Plagueys for burst or ooz for defense, and the capstone trait gives you cc immunity and a heal
pine torrent
plaguey seems weak compared to well-placed steel
like together with ooz
cause since envenom is the big burst id prefer a +14% damage over a +10%
stoic needle
If you've been necro for a whole and have most of the tree unlocked yeah probably
Plagueys and that defense slot seem like kind of an early renown pick
Cloaked in shadows is super good
split veldt
i heard some streamer was doing like 13k with mantle in M+
is this true
i wanna go back to sin so bad
deft patio
@stoic needle plz link me your rogue armory
stoic needle
How about I link you deez nuts
deft patio
iam just wondering if you actually are playing, because all you are saying about sin rogues are almost 90% wrong
its better if you just take a step back instead of giving people advise that are wrong
stoic needle
It's not wrong but whatever helps you sleep at night buddy
rich yew
Blue Monday hitting you hard @deft patio ?
prime stirrup
Blue Monday hitting you hard <@112878959678533632> ?
They started arguing because oshosi couldn't figure out why sin was more affected than other classes by not being able to restealth in m+
stoic needle
I know why sin is affected by not getting restealths, I just disagree that that's enough to make sin shit in m+
prime stirrup
i mean, you did say that outlaw not getting cto from stealth was as big of a deal as sin losing subterfuge garrotes
tribal mauve
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
stoic needle
No I didnt, I just said that all rogue specs are punished by not getting restealths
Don't put words in my mouth
I didn't say that it was as big of a loss, I just said that it was a loss too
prime stirrup
my bad, you used it as an argument for why outlaw was also affected. its like breaking a leg and comparing it to a stubbed toe
deft patio
@stoic needle link me your rogue armory plz
stoic needle
My fundamental point is that not getting subt garottes isn't enough to make sin not viable in m+
prime stirrup
it is though
stoic needle
I'm not linking you shit bro don't @ me
prime stirrup
its your entire opener
stoic needle
Yeah man I just roleplay playing rogue
deft patio
if he plays rogue, he has not played higher keys then m+0
stoic needle
Rogues still have utility even when they aren't pumping their maximum damage, that makes it still viable in my opinion
prime stirrup
literally there is nothing more important than spreading garrotes on opener when pulling multiple mobs. and saying that outlaw is affected because they might not get their random ass proc is funny. outlaw can vanish for any reason at nearly any given time. stealth is not important.
deft patio
yeapp i agree
strange python
Not in higher keys - you need the damage and utility
prime stirrup
sure when timer doesn't matter. but when you're actually pushing keys you need every little bit of dmg
toxic tusk
When people say not viable in mythic plus, how high of a mythic are you talking about?
deft patio
just link us your rogue armory so we can stop argue with you @stoic needle
iam talking about 14keys or higher
toxic tusk
Ah gotcha. I’ve been in 7-10s and kept up.
Not much experience any higher yet.
So is the argument that subterfuge’s garrottes aren’t as good as master assassin?
prime stirrup
heres the top sin timed dungeons of the tier.
as you can see they cannot compete with other specs
toxic tusk
I don’t know very much, but for the longest time I also garrotted everything that moves every group pull and it worked out pretty well.
prime stirrup
sure you can time 10s all day on sin.
stoic needle
^ that's exactly my point, you can't just say shit like 'sin is not viable in m+' when it totally is viable in m+. I didn't say shit about pushing high keys. But you came out of the gate being toxic as fuck about it for no reason
So you can kiss my ass
deft patio
I don’t know very much, but for the longest time I also garrotted everything tha...
if you are playing for fun with your guildies and they dont wanna push super high, sin rogue will do okei, but when it comes to pushing high keys they fall so far behind sadly
prime stirrup
WHO IS TALKING ABOUT VIABILITY OF 10-15s
toxic tusk
Calm down boys
prime stirrup
does anyone care about those key levels?
toxic tusk
This is actually a really good discussion to have and getting upset is going to ruin it.
Chalk it up to miscommunication and let’s go again
grim hornet
a lot of ppl do, shanksy
oblique flare
what's the point of playing sin if it's not viable in endgame content the way other specs are ? xd
toxic tusk
does anyone care about those key levels?
I get your point here because it’s the same point I’ve made a lot. People say it isn’t viable in mythics and leave it at that, they never actually say they mean high end pushing keys mythics.
grim hornet
playing a spec that u like even if it's only for weekly cap and shit?
prime stirrup
when people talk about viability it falls into two categories. the very top, and the any spec/class can do these keys.
toxic tusk
The issue is, a lot of people don’t like, differentiate between the two.
And a lot of new people or people who don’t bother reading treat it as if it means for everything.
prime stirrup
disc priest dps is viable in m+
grim hornet
the thing is ppl in group finder look for pushing meta chars but they wanna do 14s
toxic tusk
Yeah.
prime stirrup
like, okay sure. from 1-10 it might be okay. but that doesn't mean the statement is accurate or that people will interpret it as that
toxic tusk
I get rejected from 5’s and I’ve parsed purple multiple times in raid. The meta list is great but I think it’s done more bad than good for the community who doesn’t really understand it.
grim hornet
still, with the restealth, i can totally agree that sub and assassination are more punished than OL.
even more if they bring MA
toxic tusk
Oh we are.
prime stirrup
m+ players don't like taking raid only players because they dont know the mechs, pull order, cd usage.. the list goes on
toxic tusk
I think I’m a good assassin, been playing it for years, and I struggle to keep up with players I know are bad.
Blizz hates us. But if anything it’s just a “fuck you im going to do it anyway” type thing.
I had an affliction lock lose his shit that I beat him overall by quite a bit. He wasn’t very good. His argument was that rogues are bad. You can’t fix some people.
grim hornet
xDDDD
assassination is used to good scaling throu the xpacs so you guys will have ur spot
and i will have to spec reroll (AGAIN)
toxic tusk
Rogues are viable in the standard game and even some higher levels. The math says for the very top of the top, they’re not a great choice.
I’m not spec re-rolling shit. I am my sin.
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
signal kayak
nvm
dry chasm
guys vigor deeper or marked?
plain thistle
oh no, the s word
prime stirrup
is blindside really the go to talent right now?
spice spire
is blindside really the go to talent right now?
Yes, it fills in a lot of the energy starvation problems we have
prime stirrup
surprised to see that talent getting play. sad times for sin
stray ivy
around what m+ level does it start being not absolutly embarassing for Sin
due to ramp up
this is like the opposite of fun lol
felt way better in legion/bfa
balmy condor
assassination is used to good scaling throu the xpacs so you guys will have ur s...
Used to when?
prime skiff
Hey guys haven't played much this spec on this expansion, if im talented into crimson tempest in m+ should I use it on single target bosses or rather envenom?
balmy condor
No
sudden hound
surprised to see that talent getting play. sad times for sin
Why is it sad? Anything that adds buttons to sin is a good thing imo.
gusty mirage
@rigid mango I miss you
rigid mango
I miss me too 
misty holly
Why is it sad? Anything that adds buttons to sin is a good thing imo.
ugh sin does not need more buttons. Even without Blindside I have 8 buttons in my standard rotation, not including cooldowns.
Thats like 3 more than I want...
5 is a good number
balmy condor
Mut garrote rupture shiv envenom slice is 6
toxic tusk
Hey guys haven't played much this spec on this expansion, if im talented into cr...
It’s a great talent for groups but not for the boss.
balmy condor
What am I missing
oblique flare
the only people complaining about too not enough buttons don't play arena 
toxic tusk
Ambush?
spice spire
Blindside is the only time you ambush 
toxic tusk
I thought part of ambush’s damage was considered nature to be honest.
Well yeah, but that’s what I meant.
Blindside while Zoldyck is up was pretty amazing I thought?
misty holly
Anyways, I think blindside is pretty great because it lets people who want more buttons have one, and I can take a passive. So good job for design there 🙂
spice spire
You’re thinking of the fact that blindside procs more at sub 40% health and Zoldyck’s starts to do more damage at a similar range which naturally boosts our damage by a bit. They’re just separate interactions
balmy condor
Yeah
toxic tusk
....
balmy condor
Blindside has an execute component
toxic tusk
It’s Monday.
balmy condor
Zoldyck executes
toxic tusk
I knew there was something.
spice spire
It’s all good!
balmy condor
But they are in no way connected
shrewd helm
@oblique flare not true.
Sin doesn’t have enough buttons and I play arena 🤷🏼♂️
viscid nova
tips on dueling shadow priests as sub?
balmy condor
....
And you decide to ask that, not in #pvp
And also not even in #subtlety
But in #assassination ?
royal lantern
sick scarab
and i still dont understand why sin is the only spec that doesnt have SnD passive as conduit or via talent.. sin should be dot based and envenoms non AA wiht SnD.. i really dont get it
i really dislike SnD really really really really dislike
balmy condor
Snd has actually historically been the assassination ability
It’s just a problem for people now because ????
Sin bad spec so we need reason to complain I guess
balmy condor
That makes it a bad spec
sick scarab
but playable
balmy condor
Playable and bad are indeed different words
sick scarab
if you want you can do hight keys as sin
on mothic raid mm not optimal but .. doable
SND is just fit bad in current assassination
frozen jasper
Wasnt envenom refreshing snd uptime in Legion or so ? It was pretty sick
frozen jasper
Hmm I dont know then I thought I remembered some time envenom would refresh snd
near coyote
Kingsbane instead of poison bomb, have and have snd applied when we vendetta.
shrewd helm
I came back to rogue because of SnD 🤷🏼♂️
frozen jasper
And I didn’t play WoD
shrewd helm
@frozen jasper cut to the chase
balmy condor
Kingsbane instead of poison bomb, have and have snd applied when we vendetta.
So we go from 8-9 casts of snd to 5-6?
near coyote
The specs not bad because of snd and we know they'll never remove it after balancing around it. So in the official forums I ask for reasonable things like qol
balmy condor
I salute you for going onto official forums
frozen jasper
<@232215469690585089> cut to the chase
Yea that’s what I meant, was that only a thing in WoD though ?
balmy condor
That place is some 6th circle of hell shit
Less braincells than posts on the forums
frozen jasper
The specs not bad because of snd and we know they'll never remove it after balan...
What qol changes are we talking about here ?
Like what do you think should change ?
shrewd helm
It was around pre WoD but back then it was needed. Now not so@much.
balmy condor
In like 6-8 months when sin gets faster from more cp/haste, and maybe a tier set/borrowed power thing
People won’t bitch about snd
And it’ll be beautiful
balmy condor
That’s always how it works
frozen jasper
Alright, well doesnt matter anyways I just knew that it was there in the past. Snd is alright I dont mind pressing it
sick scarab
it is not a matter of dps.. it is playstyle
balmy condor
Yes I get what you’re saying
I’m just saying
That won’t exist
It’s literally ALWAYS like that
sick scarab
they should give us a thing like premeditation for sub .. gg smooth opener etc
balmy condor
Spec underperforms -> well this thing sucks -> spec gets smoother/buffed/borrowed power -> thing is no longer a complaint -> spec eventually becomes weak again -> well that thing still sucks, and always has sucked, see, I told you
Every time
Every single time
rigid wyvern
Like i just dont get what people expect if they remove snd, the rotation would be so beyond braindead
stoic needle
The opener is already pretty smooth
sick scarab
naa
frozen jasper
The opener is already pretty smooth
Yea I think so too
stoic needle
I mean... Yes it is lol
rigid wyvern
Opener feels fine with MA talented
sick scarab
i think not
sick scarab
with MA is better y
rigid wyvern
even without ma its not the worst
rigid wyvern
Like we are a dot class, idk what you expect out of the opener?
sick scarab
give premeditation stuff like sub and problem solved we garrotye stuff etc
rigid wyvern
we have to set our shit up its always gonna take a bit
stoic needle
We're always going to be spinning plates
prime stirrup
we were full big boy burst last tier
stoic needle
I find the opener of setting things up to be fun
rigid wyvern
imo the fun of the spec is spinning plates
balmy condor
we were full big boy burst last tier
Yes, and corruption literally created a monster that sin has never been
stoic needle
Turning sin into sub is not the solution
sick scarab
agree
prime stirrup
but it was fun!
stoic needle
If you want to argue that SnD could have a more interesting effect than just attack speed boosting I can agree with that
lost sentinel
gimmie shrouded suffocation
stoic needle
But I think the opener is fine
rigid wyvern
Like i dont get removing snd, our rotation would literally just be press rupture every 20s and envenom
balmy condor
I think snd is even fine
oblique flare
SnD for assa, increases AA speed and bleed tick rate
balmy condor
We don’t even press it that much
stoic needle
SnD for assa, increases AA speed and bleed tick rate <:peepoguns:585733947732787...
That's what I'd like to see
balmy condor
It’s like once every 40 seconds
sick scarab
not bad
stoic needle
Make it give us haste for our dots
sick scarab
exaclty
balmy condor
That’s basically what it does now
rigid wyvern
Tho tbh if you are arguing SnD is bad because you want it to do more damage your problem isnt the design its the tuning
stoic needle
It gives energy regen and more instant poison procs from the extra AAs
rigid wyvern
cause the gameplay ends up the exact same
stoic needle
That's not really increasing dot tick rate
stoic needle
It's not really that bad anymore
balmy condor
Energy regen and dot tick rate end up the same
sick scarab
playable
balmy condor
That’s the same thing
sick scarab
stoic needle
How so?
balmy condor
Dot tick rate is energy, energy is energy
stoic needle
Ohhh I didn't think about the venomous wounds part
balmy condor
Like if anything
Lower the attack speed
And increase the energy regen
That would make sense
But replacing the energy regen dot tick rate
stoic needle
Anything that makes melee less of a % of our damage breakdown is good in my book
balmy condor
Is replacing an apple with a different Apple
shrewd helm
Even then to me melee@damage being high doesn’t bother me.
sick scarab
and SND is part of that
balmy condor
Main damage is poisons
stoic needle
But that's going to change over the course of the expansion naturally
balmy condor
Btw
oblique flare
make shiv apply exsanguinate as well
shrewd helm
@oblique flare no
stoic needle
After the buff and night fae covenant change deadly poison is my #1 damage source over melee now
Envenom in 3rd
Then mut,garrotte and rupture all tied for 4th
rigid wyvern
I think my recent sims have had deadly poison at #1 aswell
shrewd helm
You’re still controlling that aa damage by positioning and using SnD.
balmy condor
Poisons were on top before buff as well I’m pretty sure
sick scarab
let me see a good log of mine in hc
balmy condor
Aha
rigid wyvern
I have fat vers from all my pvp gear i use to fill in loot drops lol
stoic needle
My ideal would be poison, garotte, rupture and envenom top 4, melee #5
balmy condor
It’ll probably be that by the end of the expansion
stoic needle
It would be cool to see what the ilvl cap would be at the end of the expansion so we could sim what the future would be like
balmy condor
How many tiers do you think there are
sick scarab
stoic needle
I have no clue honestly
sick scarab
this is dakr lady
stoic needle
Bfa had 5?
shrewd helm
Which do you think will@be better for sin mythic progression? I already have my sub and outlaw leggos made.
shrewd helm
Sin leggo
balmy condor
Always zoldyck
sick scarab
zoldyck always
stoic needle
I guess once we get the next tier we can maybe guestimate what the ilvl jump will be with each tier
shrewd helm
That’s what I thought.
balmy condor
I guess once we get the next tier we can maybe guestimate what the ilvl jump wil...
Will probably be 26 ilvl
shrewd helm
Just figured I would get a jumpstart and have leggos for each spec
balmy condor
Used to be 15 ilvl per difficulty, jumps of 30 ilvl per tier
So if it follows that
We have 13 ilvl jumps
So it’ll be 26
But we can say 30 for example
For ease
That means with borrowed power and garbage whatever
stoic needle
I see
stoic needle
I guess you could figure it out now
But it wouldn't consider any of whatever borrowed power they add
oblique flare
I was memeing pepehands
oblique flare
my comment 
spice spire
balmy condor
Koffing banned me as a joke a month or so ago
And so it removed like 12k of my messages
Lmao
oblique flare
spice spire
Only 12k
balmy condor
Yeah it doesn’t clear full history
spice spire
Oh that makes sense, I was going to say, I expected more lol
balmy condor
Yeah if you’re on PC
You can just search “from:Whispyr#0001”
And it’ll show you how many results
spice spire
Well I gotta see it later. I’m sure it’s uh, quite a bit. I’d imagine mid 5 figures?
plain thistle
big chatter 
balmy condor
Nothing compared to zine/foreverguy
I think those are the highest post counts on the server
plain thistle
280k jesus
balmy condor
They’ve also been active for far longer than I have to be fair
plain thistle
I'm old here, but I usually dont chat much
balmy condor
Yeah I remember your name from a lot of things over the years
plain thistle
yeah, I was more active during legion
balmy condor
I really started being active in 8.2/8.3
spice spire
BfA
oblique flare
wtb 8.3 assa
balmy condor
nimble grove
8.0 sin with ss stack was good
keeping that low apm playstyle and having most damage coming from bleed felt good
polar cape
Wtb NH assa back T.T
vestal wren
8.3 was stupid because it made assassination gcd capped
polar light
How do I sim the difference between kyrian and night fae?
balmy condor
there's a checkbox to unlock all soulbinds
in top gear
just hit that, and select a different soulbind to sim
polar light
Does it change the ability to sepsis or is it dumb
balmy condor
if you change soulbinds, the ability will change as well
polar light
Okay I'll do that
balmy condor
since sepsis + pelagos for example doesn't exist
buoyant mauve
I need to know, does unceasing chain link make the garrote dot also do more dmg or just the application?
balmy condor
the application is the dot
buoyant mauve
and if it does, does it also stack with subterfuge?
buoyant mauve
oh shit, I got 3 stacks homie
buoyant mauve
it's the last floor though....
balmy condor
oh you're doing normie ass torg
mortal tartan
torg is the most boring shit
buoyant mauve
yeah but I need it for emissary
tardy furnace
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
ebon heath
How's Sin performing in M+?
balmy condor
bout as good as sub
ebon heath
gotta try it out, i need more haste
buoyant mauve
solo layer 8 eeeeeez
tender sable
How's Sin performing in M+?
Just outdamaged ww monk and fire mage. I don’t think they played well 🙃
tender sable
10k dps with vendetta and prideful tho.. sweet
iron orchid
10k dps with vendetta and prideful tho.. sweet
On single target, on pride+lust, if you managed to keep alacrity up at 5 stacks and already have SnD up, yeah that's a thing
Feels great
lapis fulcrum
Are u using hekili any1?
hollow escarp
just got curve playin assassination 
drifting light
Bruh, when u restealth with dots up on the target using MA, they crit until u leave stealth
Thats pretty cool
mortal tartan
that sounds fun in a bg
watching like a hunter or something bleed to death from stealth
misty holly
since sepsis + pelagos for example doesn't exist
Sounds like an idea for 9.3
balmy condor
tbh idk what they're gonna even do in 9.1
the soulbind trees are already gonna be done, we have legendaries, and conduits
so its either just add more conduits/legendaries/make the soulbind trees longer
or another new system
misty holly
Magni arrives in the shadowlands bringing azerite armor with him
hollow escarp
the soulbind trees are already gonna be done, we have legendaries, and conduits
double legendary
or maybe the soulbind tree will go deeper
storm perch
Magni arrives in the shadowlands bringing azerite armor with him
Hero, we must save Azeroth
strange python
Don't be rediculous, it will be kael'thas with "anima armor"
oblique flare
Maw-Walker, the jailer hurt the shadowlands, you must collect anima to heal shadowlands wounds
mortal tartan
emerald dream
balmy condor
well that's not a snapshot, that's you sitting in vanish, not attacking, and waiting for them to expire
which is actually worse than just using it, vanishing normally, and getting 4 seconds of 100% crit
torpid spoke
Yeah but in cases where the add or target is out of reach. You apply dots and move in vanish (plague fall boss 2)
Then open up again on him + add
balmy condor
Is crit legendary better in all cases?
so not this
strange python
lol
balmy condor
in the case where you sit in vanish for extended periods of time, sure, I can see it being worth maybe
but even then, kinda questionable
and you would have to be off the boss for a while
hollow escarp
or using weapons in NEcrotic Wake
balmy condor
which is the opposite of what you want to be doing
so you have the necrotic wake crit cheesing with spears/etc
and that's really it
stoic needle
Magni arrives in the shadowlands bringing azerite armor with him
Ok hear me out though
Ma+ necrolord bone spike
Infinitely critting dot
oblique flare
anima empowered gear
stoic needle
Animazerite
balmy condor
the most weird champ I've seen in this channel
has come from the beta
where people would seriously argue with me
about bone spike being bugged
because it didn't exsang
oblique flare
infinite bleed exsanging
balmy condor
people and their negative IQ
actually thought
that because bone spike said "bleed"
exsang would double the speed
spice spire
I’d say @ me but not even I’m that smooth brained
balmy condor
and then you would keep exsanging
and it would keep doubling
so they actually no meme were recommending exsang single target
oblique flare
gleaming eagle
strange python
I almost wish it did just so we had a cov skill worth thinking about
I breaks my brain justifying that convoke/spirits just exists in the same game as flagellation
fleet anchor
in the case where you sit in vanish for extended periods of time, sure, I can se...
This has been looked into a fair bit over the years and never seen it as a gain. (Legion and normal 50% crit MA talent)
fleet anchor
Loss of AAs is kinda a big deal and can only sit in stealth without losing Energy for a few seconds anyway
balmy condor
yup
fleet anchor
Also found a new Assassination build in Torghast when doing Layer 6 today. Just get 360k HP and sit there. 🤣
unique plume
Question: in simplest terms why is haste better than mastery atm? I remember when we used to stack crit/mastery
plain thistle
well, the answer for that is simple, haste gives you more damage per point 
native turtle
plain thistle
balmy condor
Question: in simplest terms why is haste better than mastery atm? I remember whe...
haste makes dot tick faster, dot tick faster = more energy, more energy = more damage
and if that's more than simple, revert back to "haste gives you more damage per point"
upbeat mirage
But, WAIT what if I have a zillion haste?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
upbeat mirage
something like that.
upbeat mirage
TL; DR - stacking mastery.
plain thistle
126% haste was like, 1 haste proc from anything last patch hehe
balmy condor
well no
cause 126% vers
is 1.26x damage
and 126% mastery
is not 1.26x damage
therefore mastery bad
right
upbeat mirage
🙂
unique plume
So a change between stacking crit mast to haste crit was that due to change in how haste affects our skills? Was it back in legion that it was crit mastery?
Good god I'm aging
balmy condor
it was crit mastery in legion because bleeds didn't speed up with haste
unique plume
Ahhh
balmy condor
mastery sucks now because bleeds and poisons are comparatively weak
and vers is just mastery but better (simply put)
so haste = faster
crit = more damage/more cp
vers = more damage
mastery = more damage, but only to like 50% of your damage
which means haste + crit = more spells cast
unique plume
Well consider me enlightened
balmy condor
now that's obviously a toddler explanation
and stats don't really work like that
and haste > crit = vers > mast
is a super outdated concept
but yeh
unique plume
Yeah it makes all the sense. Ok so let's get hasty!
balmy condor
yuh
regal prawn
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
tulip tide
one omega yikes question towards some of you here (probably)
but has anyone actually tried simming it where you use the MA legendary with exsang and nightstalker where you would vanish instantly after using exsang, and then wait in stealth until you have about 4s left on the dots?
ive seen people saying it is bad, but just how bad?
tulip tide
well that's why i'm asking if anyone has tried everything as obscure as this
balmy condor
the vanish thing is probably like 10%
tulip tide
you would vanish into envenom ofc
balmy condor
nightstalker MA in pve you vanish rupture btw
I haven't ran the numbers, but I would find it quite weird if an envenom would be better
fleet whale
honestly i'm just thinking of legion when i think of MA leggo
tulip tide
like how would i even try simming something as stupid as this?
i've got no idea how to write custom priorities for the sim
fleet whale
and Master poisoner damage gave more envenom damage
balmy condor
like how would i even try simming something as stupid as this?
i've got no idea ...
honestly, not even sure if sitting in stealth mid fight is something that's possible, they had to bend the rules quite a bit to get restealths to work between packs in dungeonslice
but it has been simmed before
so I assume its possible
fleet whale
i wonder if exsang is actually worse than VR in pure ST
balmy condor
it is
tulip tide
because i feel like there would at least 100% be a window where you would benefit more from the dots 100% critting if you're energy starved, and therefore you're only losing out on autoattacks?
balmy condor
exsang is actually the worst talent in that row
tulip tide
exsang or otherwise
balmy condor
auto's are doing a lot of damage though
mortal tartan
would a damage buff make it usable
tulip tide
wellt hat's kinda the point
while in stealth all your dots would continue to tick for +50% dmg through nighstalker, have 100% crit, and with exsang tick twice as fast
balmy condor
no it wouldn't
tulip tide
it wouldn't?
balmy condor
nightstalker is your NEXT ability
so you would vanish, and get the crit on the dots
tulip tide
ah okay is that so
balmy condor
but if you were to cast a nightstalker skill
you would break stealth
so really the strat would be like garrote from stealth with subt, then vanish for the legendary effect
if anything
dense cedar
MA seems really shit for dungeons
tulip tide
yeah okay i misunderstood that badly then
because the description just says your abilities do 50% increased dmg
mortal tartan
when you have the talent on and you are in stealth, what does the buff say
sometimes the tooltips are different than the actual buff they give
balmy condor
nah, it says "your abilities do 50% more damage"
that's the actual wording
but it doesn't count on abilities that are already cast
mortal tartan
i guess its just a bit misleading then
balmy condor
it counts abilities you cast from stealth
and since abilities break stealth
it basically reads "your next ability from stealth deals 50% more damage"
balmy condor
i guess its just a bit misleading then
wow, almost like blizzard tooltips aren't written in the very good way
color me suprised
that a blizzard tooltip
is vague
tulip tide
i guess..
mortal tartan
million dollar company
dense cedar
Whispyr being rude to the Nightstalker tooltip
balmy condor
see: flayedwing toxin
dense cedar
very poor behaviour
balmy condor
that trinket
has 4 tooltips
the trinket tooltip, the buff on your character, the debuff on the enemy, and the details tooltip telling you how much damage it's doing
and guess what
all 4 of those numbers are completely different
mortal tartan
the trinket says like 1600 but the buff is only 160
mortal tartan
i don't understand it all i know is that its damage on my meter
tulip tide
i mean that's a different topic tho, right?
that's just how stupid their numbers are, and always have been
(and for some reason in almost every game with damage numbers in the tooltips)
balmy condor
well it's just tooltips in wow often are not reality
case in point being a trinket that has 3 in-game tooltips, none of which are correct
balmy condor
and you need a fourth tooltip, from out of game, to see how much its actually doing
dense cedar
remember when FoK gave like 20000 combo points, according to Blizzard
tulip tide
anyways, how is sin looking?
been looking at parses but there are still way too few people playing the spec to be able to get any reasonable data from wclog
tulip tide
even on 2-3 targets?
mellow heart
how is it weak they are ahead of sub rogues in nathria
tulip tide
i just fucking hate outlaw
dense cedar
Outlaw is fun now
balmy condor
i just fucking _hate_ outlaw
and that's why we play sin 
tulip tide
yee i should prly give it a go again
the rotation just felt so meh
balmy condor
how is it weak they are ahead of sub rogues in nathria
mythic logs are pretty bait still
balmy condor
and if anything, they're pretty much dead even
tulip tide
but there isn't even a sweetspot in terms of target numbers where sin outshines outlaw?
dense cedar
tulip tide
yikes
dense cedar
Sin is in the bin
balmy condor
but you can move and spread to 8 more
raven egret
i love playing sin but guild doesnt let me play on prog
i just go outlaw and hate it
tulip tide
i mean i'd honestly love to be able to just play sub, ngl, but it's also attracting playing many specs with the access to the legendaries etc
except that the sub and sin ones don't change anything you do, so that's fun
mortal tartan
half my guild can't get out of grey parse so i don't think im getting benched anytime soon for playing rogue
dense cedar
do any leggos change how u play?
tulip tide
i am, just feel like i'm underperforming on multitarget fights
tulip tide
i mean duskwalker's patch would change the timers for your vendetta
dense cedar
ye but u don't have to do anything about that
tulip tide
celerity gives you an impactful buff that you actually notice while it's up, etc
tulip tide
well it's more than literally just 25% dmg, right?
dense cedar
Celerity proc is just a stronger combat potency
balmy condor
i am, just feel like i'm underperforming on multitarget fights
sub sucks at 2-4, just as a design, loses at 5 target barely, and then wins 6-8 against sin, and 8 against outlaw
strange python
the only thing celerity does that you FEEL is give you energy
tulip tide
..pretty much
dense cedar
not even a feels thing
you really do just get a lot of energy from it
THe best thing tho
Is Celerity procs mid AR
strange python
the worst thing is though, you stand around prior to a pull with 3 mins left on your snd post trash waiting for the priest to run back watching your toon occasionally go "raaaaaaaaawwwrrrrrr!" and proc it
dense cedar
i wonder what goblin sounds like lol