why?
#assassination
deft patio
balmy condor
also dots rarely snapshot anything, outside of the damage bonus from subt/nightstalker, and haste on exsang cast
strange python
I crafted MA with the idea of getting a half shrouded suff. lol
balmy condor
so if your next question is about the entire duration of garrote getting crit buffed by ma
I'm gonna have to disappoint there too
strange python
I know it's based on current crit chance
was just expecting garrote to get that extra CP
balmy condor
ye, not how that works sadly
strange python
so what's the opener with MA on aoe?
balmy condor
there's no "hit" on garrote that could crit
strange python
fok?
balmy condor
3x gar and fok
strange python
that's basically the same lol
balmy condor
it is XD
deft patio
gar on all targets, fan of knives and rupture on all targets
balmy condor
you then vanish for finisher fok finisher fok
strange python
would it make sense to try to CT during MA duration?
of if I enter a pack with 5CP - CT right away?
balmy condor
CT during MA is perfectly fine
if you enter with 5cp, you should probably recast snd
but entering with CT is fine
strange python
thank you - also for ST should I change the listed opener of gar > rup > mut > snd?
try to replace a mut with Kyrian for example
so that the crit chance is applied there
balmy condor
where is is suggesting gar > rup > mut > snd
with subterfuge single target, you would gar mut with blindside, gar ambush with EP, snd > rup as a finisher order
balmy condor
you can if you want to
strange python
(i'm just trying to maximize MA... since I'm a bit disapointed lol)
balmy condor
yeah in all honesty, I haven't looked at specific MA edge cases
and the sims don't necessarily have all the logic
so I need to do some testing with it and see what happens
supple compass
I can’t help but see ma and deathly shadows and think the pair will be good later down the line
Call me crazy
balmy condor
you're crazy
strange python
last question: with MA doesn't it make sense to reapply gar ? gar>amb>gar
balmy condor
never do that single target
balmy condor
reapplying a garrote for pandemic is a huge loss over just casting a mut or something
strange python
so the extended duration+associated energy gain is still inferior?
balmy condor
well you're not actually gaining any energy
you're technically gaining less than you would otherwise cause that second garrote is shorter than a normal garrote would be in its place
so you're using the same energy, and getting less bleed duration for it
the extended duration is inferior though, yes
strange python
I see - thank you
balmy condor
my pleasure
balmy condor
so the extended duration+associated energy gain is still inferior?
regarding this, you can see the research on it here: #tc-research message
although I think I need to make an addendum to that apl line
manic pebble
I'm still struggling with the rotation, do you guys have the most effective rotation list+opener with blindside?
balmy condor
openers sort of change fairly heavily with what talent you picked in your second row, and the content you're doing (aoe/single target)
I personally really like the wowhead guide
manic pebble
I'm using subterfuge
balmy condor
but I know that the format of that is pretty free-form, which isn't everyones cup of tea
manic pebble
or can I just follow what the sim rotation told me?
balmy condor
its close enough yeah
manic pebble
aight
strange python
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
strange python
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
left relic
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
brisk flicker
What is a good cloak chant for progression? I don't know why, but I don't trust it when it's telling me to use the stam/leech chant. Dafuq.
fleet whale
there is no dps cloak enchant
balmy condor
? Cloak enchants don’t exist
fleet whale
that's why
brisk flicker
Guess I'm an idiot, I could've sworn there was at least one... oh well
median aurora
teal stratus
you could argue that speed is a dps gain since you can reposition faster
but no hard dps enchant
balmy condor
^ that’s what I meant
fleet whale
they are all for utility but all cheap as well
really up to you if you want leech, speed, or avoidance
is there a cheap alternative to sinful revelation?
balmy condor
A second celestial
fleet whale
k cause i'm not putting sinful on a freaking 171 dagger lol
brisk flicker
especially with m+ next week
fallow otter
we using phantom fire pot for raid whisp?
brisk flicker
Does Shadowcore Oil apply once? Or do we have to apply it twice? It reads "Apply to a weapon" so wasn't sure if we need to apply it twice for 2 weps
fleet whale
think of it as an extra poison
knotty bear
is shadowcore oil good? Only been using it because alch and have heaps of deathblossom lmao
fleet whale
speaking of which can blizz please remove the dumb 5 second cd on oils?
and it's fine
i think sharpening stones are a little better esp for aoe
but they are both close, and oils do get an extra benefit from the shadow damage pot
knotty bear
ah cool
dude I just wanna play sin so I am never tempted to open sub channel again
that place is cursed
fleet whale
yeah now that im 176 ilvl sin is starting to feel fun
i do well enough in my groups but the damage still isn't quite there
brisk flicker
Yea, you need shadowcore oil. You get a big dmg boost if you use a pot while having shadowcore oil on weps
stoic needle
it still feels kinda awkward to me tbh
knotty bear
aoe feels kinda jank
stoic needle
yeah
brisk flicker
"If you consume this potion while your weapon is augmented with Shadowcore Oil, the additional damage is increased by 10%. Lasts 25 sec."
knotty bear
ST feels fine
brisk flicker
My AoE has actually been pretty nutty in sin
brisk flicker
Eh, I have a hard time believing that shuriken storm spamming into powder does more dmg than FoK + Tempest
considering poisons
stoic needle
believe it
brisk flicker
I might have to sim it and see
knotty bear
^
brisk flicker
I think a lot of sin users are not prioritizing abilities properly in cleave packs. Like, ignore garrote. I keep seeing people spend a global to use garrote when they could be FoK instead.
stoic needle
putting out 5 cp black powders every other GCD is ridiculous
that doesn't sound right to me at all
knotty bear
i cant play sin with the knowledge that I am doing at least 15% less damage lols
stoic needle
garotte is one of your biggest damage sources as sin
your aoe opener is 3 garottes into FOK
brisk flicker
Listen, if there is a pack of 6, sure you can garrote opener on 4 targets. After that, you don't garrote unless you vanish. 1 FoK generates almost 4-5 combo points and you start applying ruptures everywhere.
stoic needle
uh
brisk flicker
and obv temptest
low girder
You get extras on crits
stoic needle
that's why it's so terrible
low girder
We just have zero crit
stoic needle
ok maybe you get lucky and get 2
brisk flicker
I'm at 23% crit and I usually get 3-5
stoic needle
that's just not how it works
brisk flicker
big packs I pretty much get 5 all the time
knotty bear
it scales with targets crit tho
stoic needle
brisk flicker
stoic needle
where are you getting all this crit
knotty bear
MA 
brisk flicker
I just told you I'm at 23% crit
stoic needle
you're right
brisk flicker
That's near 1/4 chance PER knife being thrown out or w/e
stoic needle
ok i'm listening
brisk flicker
up to 8 targets
8 targets having a 1/4 chance to crit
Big packs I get 3-5 almost always
If it's a pack of 4 or more, I'll do the FoK stuff. If it's 3, I just do normal rotation
stoic needle
sounds familiar lol
knotty bear
regardless, sin falls even further behind the other two specs in aoe at present
stoic needle
the black powder find weakness synergy is too good
brisk flicker
I mean sure, but to say sin is doing bad I don't think is accurate. I do think it's lacking, but it's not terrible
stoic needle
why doesn't sin have synergy like that 
knotty bear
dunno... feels pretty bad losing 15% st damage going from sub > sin. And in aoe its even more of a loss
so i'd say its pretty bad
fleet whale
the real question you should ask is why blizz gave black powder to sub in the first place
knotty bear
^
fleet whale
especially as baseline
stoic needle
yeah i mean isn't outlaw supposed to be the AOE spec
fleet whale
sub had a lot of issues in bfa
stoic needle
and sub is the ST one
fleet whale
lack of a baseline aoe finisher was not one of them
brisk flicker
Alright, fine. I take it back, sin is doing pretty bad in comparison, but... I have faith that they'll tweak numbers soon
stoic needle
I hope so
fleet whale
sub aoe is so mind numbing
brisk flicker
I just know that I'm managing to keep up (still a bit behind my other 180+ fellow amigos), but once those numbers get tweaked, I'm about to blow all of them out of the water
stoic needle
it's big number but I don't feel like i'm working for it
fleet whale
idk, i feel like blizz just gave sub black powder to draw more people into sub
knotty bear
sub st isnt much better with these long dances varolyn
fleet whale
like why give sub a baseline aoe finisher, but not sin
stoic needle
sub st is pretty nutty
fleet whale
and yes i've brought up sub st being way too simple
knotty bear
whole spec feels mind numbing now
fleet whale
but of course everyone on that channel just lols at me
knotty bear
outside of pvp
stoic needle
you mean dmg or rotation?
fleet whale
sub st rotation
knotty bear
and even that is mind numbing at the moment lmao
fleet whale
is havoc demon hunter with daggers
stoic needle
lol yeah
stoic needle
it doesn't feel very rogue to be able to use all of your stealth abilities out of stealth all the time, as fun as it is
brisk flicker
symbols dance lining is a funny concept. Just bind it to 1 ability
knotty bear
bring back the phat dfa line-ups from legion and i will be happy to play sub
fleet whale
if they wanted sub to have skill again, either bring back the dfa playstyle
stoic needle
i have a CD castsequence, everything always lines up lol
knotty bear
until then... sin buff waiting room
fleet whale
or make dance into a real cd again
brisk flicker
lmao nice
stoic needle
i'd rather it be a real CD than the state you have to be in to do any notable dmg
fleet whale
plus something about sub's animations just seem too... girly to me
idk what it is but it puts me off
stoic needle
shadowstrike is way too dramatic, and it's really repetitive
brisk flicker
You know what almost sounds like mutilate
stoic needle
it needs variations
brisk flicker
shadow strike
fleet whale
not really
stoic needle
yeah mutilate's sound design is mad satisfying
brisk flicker
.>
knotty bear
mut sounds gritty as hell
brisk flicker
LOL
brisk flicker
Actually hirs makes a good point. I love the poison bomb sound
knotty bear
my love from poison bomb is probably a relic of the insane damage it did in legion tho
fleet whale
plus fok animation and sounds
stoic needle
rupture is pretty satisfying as well
fleet whale
is way better than shuriken storm
brisk flicker
I think my favorite is actually the garrote silence
fleet whale
i think it will get a st buff
knotty bear
good enough for me
stoic needle
it needs an aoe rework
fleet whale
at the very least make it as good as a frost dk currently
stoic needle
wtb c2c
fleet whale
so this coming reset we can upgrade honor gear to even higher ilvl
might be useful to me, if i can't fill out all my gear
knotty bear
thank god... two weeks of no dagger drops
fleet whale
with 184s
knotty bear
didn't even get a dagger in heroic spams lmao
stoic needle
I can't get any weapons either
knotty bear
I got 4 trinket drops this week and just missing weps and a ring
stoic needle
I JUST got a trinket today
fleet whale
do some pvp
stoic needle
I have 171 pvp daggers
stoic needle
I'm going to upgrade my pvp badge to 184 and the daggers to 184
I got the decanter of anima charged winds
Good aoe one
fleet whale
it's good in st too
knotty bear
got inscrutable, decanter, and flayedwing lols
fleet whale
i have inscrutable and the battery
haven't done sanguine yet though this week
gonna try to get decanter to replace the battery
knotty bear
decanter seems great
fleet whale
i have a normal decanter that i used for a while
knotty bear
inscrutible is weird
fleet whale
it's not really that annoying as people say it is
always works on opener, which has the highest influence on your dps most of the time
and even then, aren't many moments where people are stuck at low hp or mana
knotty bear
yeah just macro'd it to sepsis lmao and just forget about it
fleet whale
i macro it to vendetta
fleet whale
idk
stoic needle
Sigh
fleet whale
blizz is dumb
knotty bear
so many enrage mobs in dungeons
stoic needle
No one knows
fleet whale
not a single dev plays assassination
fleet whale
nice
knotty bear
mine is 171, only sin 184 i have is maim
stoic needle
I've gotten good luck for conduits, I've got 184 stiletto stacatto, well placed steel, planned execution, and perforated veins
Not too many good sin ones though
stoic needle
Every day I pray that they buff sin so I can mute the sub channel forever
fleet whale
yeah the the risk is
stoic needle
Noooooo
knotty bear
yeah it's a risk... but all the FotM sub rollers wouldn't be able to cope with not being gcd capped
crimson pasture
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
stoic needle
I literally came to rogue to escape that shit from fury
And sub is just the rogue fury
knotty bear
other rogues in my guild dont understand why i enjoy sin
stoic needle
Are there any good non gcd capped specs in the game
knotty bear
lols my opener burst is actually good with MA
maybe i can convince myself to just play sin for a bit
stoic needle
Aren't they about to get nerfed tho
knotty bear
except their dam is BIG atm
fleet whale
well, i was talking about playstyle
knotty bear
yee
stoic needle
Gotcha
fleet whale
there is also feral too, but they are weak as well
fleet whale
breath frost isn't gcd gapped
fleet whale
some casters aren't
fleet whale
i mean i don't mind gcd capped
like i love oblit frost dk
but you press more buttons on that spec
knotty bear
i enjoyed older iterations with outlaw
that was a fun gcd capped playstyle
but gcd capped 2 button rotations
no thanks
fleet whale
ironically enough i actually like havoc dh as well
spells at least look really cool
and good utility
stoic needle
I prefer slower paced specs where each thing feels more impactful than having a dozen things to do at once
fleet whale
i just really like sin's fantasy, and how it does things
knotty bear
ya
stoic needle
Oh yeah. My first wow character was an assasination rogue
fleet whale
imo it's one of the "darker" specs in wow
stoic needle
Way back in tbc
knotty bear
i remember when i first tried sin after staying away from it because it was the "slow/boring" spec
fleet whale
yes darker than sub rogue
knotty bear
fell in love with it straight up
knotty bear
im a legion baby 😦
fleet whale
bring back kingsbane
stoic needle
Lol I quit in cata and didn't come back until BFA
Played bfa for a month and quit again until SL
knotty bear
i played in school during wrath, but played hunter/dk. Then came back in legion as rogue
stoic needle
So I missed all of the good stuff apparently
stoic needle
I can only imagine
knotty bear
specs felt so empty
stoic needle
BFA was a damn mess
knotty bear
is tuning next reset or the reset of mythic release?
stoic needle
shrug its whenever blizzard decides to remember that we exist
carmine flare
Lots of whining. Sub was literally in the dirt for most of BFA, culminating in being the worst dps spec in the game. I also hope sin is buffed, as I love it. But no need to trash sub.
knotty bear
not trashing it, just do not think this iteration of it is fun/engaging
carmine flare
Ah, I get your meaning. But I am wondering what about this iteration you dont like. It feels pretty good to me so far. Part of me misses the DFA days, however!
I really do miss sin, though.
knotty bear
for me it just feels like very little thought necessary, especially when in aoe. Don't really have to manage CDs outside of knowing when mechanics may screw you
also a lot of dfa nostalgia :p
knotty bear
i have fond memories of all 3 legion specs
drifting cosmos
BFA was alright, not super popular but def not bad
knotty bear
losing all the random artifact traits that you didnt even notice you had felt terrible going into bfa
just like playing without shrouded suff now feels pretty bad
carmine flare
But I also feel sub, with snd, feels much better than it did in BFA.
I am hopeful sin will rise to the occasion soon enough, as it usually does.
yep maiden glaives
drifting cosmos
Sub is a different spec in BFA
And maybe different again in SL
Sin at least is somewhat consistent
Gameplay/core design
carmine flare
Sin has always felt to me like a more complete class. Sub was been a work in progress, moreso. This isn't to say that sin has also not undergone major changes. But the integration of its gameplay with its class fantasy has been consistently superb.
dusk lodge
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
strange python
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
plain onyx
hey guys, i never played a spec other than sin, and i love it. I don't know, but is it time to change or should i stick to it. I've been away since bfa and now i came back.
frail birch
Sin has always been my favorite, but honestly sub is really fun right now. Give it a try and see if you like it, otherwise sin is always there for you.
drifting imp
does anyone else have the issue, that sometimes when you attack from stealth your leathal poison doesn't aplly like it should with the rank 2 passive?
i tested it several times on a dummy right now and sometimes it applies deadly poison but very often it only applies my non deadly poison when i open from stealth
sometimes it also only applies the non lethal when it should apply both 100%
prisma monolithBOT
hybrid crystal
!guide
balmy condor
does anyone else have the issue, that sometimes when you attack from stealth you...
Well known bug for a long time now. Rank 2 poisons hasn’t worked once since it was introduced in beta
Not high enough on blizz’s QoL bug fix list I guess
drifting imp
nice, i like the love sin gets in this exp 👌
frail birch
Every time I remember how much I loved my sin rogue before slands I feel the pepehands energy
At least the comfy chat is still here to keep me warm
verbal mantle
fallen raven
sin was so comfy, sl sin with snd just feels clunky imo
gritty yoke
pls blizz buff sin i dont wanna play sub any longer
crystal robin
A macro for blindside where do i find?
crystal robin
Can't find it, seems its gone, only other videos are searchable
drifting imp
i only started playing sin in bfa at the start of 8.3 and all felt so fluid and the rotation was so fun and now i have to stand there half of the time waiting for my energy, snd feels so clunky and doesn't help much. yesterday i was in a m0 in a big pack and i was like, damn i had got energy, kept up my bleeds and stuff and even had a few poison bomb procs and i must have done pretty well and then i look up to details, seeing that the mm hunter in my group had 2k more dps than i had. it's so frustrating. i'm for sure not the best sin out there but in bfa i felt pretty decent, now i've come to a point where i just question myself... but there is only so much you can do when the dmg numbers are simply not right i guess
strange python
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
silk crest
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
topaz bluff
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
topaz bluff
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
strange python
what covenants is everyone choosing
i chose nightfae but idk if made the right choice lol
uncut schooner
@strange python I wouldn't worry too much about what everyone else is choosing, because there's a pretty big mix. A lot of people are gravitating toward night fae or kyrian due to them being the fotm choices, either because they're overtuned in certain bits of content or because they like chasing the dps sims.
But for the most part, numerically, the difference is tiny. Your choice isn't that influential on your performance in-game, go for what you like the look of. 🙂
honest lagoon
How does sepsis work? Ignore stealth ability use?
Or is the garrote buffed if I have subterfuge?
thin radish
neon berry
Please help
honest lagoon
Why should I use ambush?
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
neon berry
ty
spark edge
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
crude summit
so what's probably the best pvp legendary for assassination tho
besides the honor legendary for blind before trinket
crude summit
yeh, just tought it'd be better cuz of all the sub rogue hype
warm olive
Doomblade can be considered as one of the top ones
crude summit
but thanks
ye i've seen it's probably top dmg in pvp but mark of the master assassin might also be really good
ember mural
yep, and its useful for all 3 specs
crude summit
having that 4s 100% crit on opener and vanish might be better than having invigorating shadowdust for 3s, is what i'm wondering
left relic
does anyone know if the legendary from torghast next week will be 100% drop
lament dove
what about the raid ones, was there a confirmation on those droprates?
balmy condor
Nope
dense cedar
would honestly be pretty fucked if they aren't 100%
basically getting 2 chances a week at your bis legendary while other specs get to chill and use theirs for mythic prog
left relic
yea that would be really gross
dense cedar
Would kinda go in the face of the whole not like legion mentality
left relic
can you have as many as you want in yoru bag but just wear one for now right?
balmy condor
Yes
jaunty salmon
is there a macro for Ambush / multistrike wile Death angle is talented ?
calm dome
Hi everybody, I am wondering if I need to refresh garrot and rupture before they expire ?
balmy condor
As long as it’s in pandemic range and not empowered in any way, you’re good to refresh
calm dome
I saw this pandemic system but it seem unclear to me... And I looking at my possible empowered windows and I can only see my Orc racial. Any other moment when garrot / rupt are empowered ?
left relic
wow just got a nice rushed setup conduent
balmy condor
Nightstalker, subterfuge, exsang
Are the 3
Nightstalker and subterfuge snapshots the damage buff, so if you cast a dot on top of an existing one with those, you lose the damage
Exsang snapshots haste, so even if your haste trinket for example runs out during an exsang’d dot, it doesn’t change the dot
Pandemic is a hidden game mechanic that allows you to refresh your dots with up to 30% of the time remaining
The easiest example is garrote, so we’ll do that one first
Garrote is an 18 second dot, every time. 30% of 18, is 5.4. So once your garrote hits 5.4 or lower, you can refresh it
The remaining time on that garrote will go to the next one
It doesn’t transfer the damage however, just the time
And that time is calculated based on the new application, not the old one
A more complicated example would be something like slice and dice or rupture
Slice and dice at 4cp has a different pandemic than at 5cp due to how the finisher works with duration
viscid cloud
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
balmy condor
So 4cp snd is 30 seconds, *0.3 is 9 second for a safe refresh
rich yew
How would you guys open up on an aoe pack with MA. FoK into an CT and then spamming more FoK to get SnD up and spreading garrotes/ruptures? Or open with spread of garrote then into FoK + CT?
calm dome
Your explainations are great, like really great thanks a lot .
So basically, I can refresh garrote and rupture when they go under 5.4 seconds, but when apply under subterfuge, I let them expire
balmy condor
Exactly
With subterfuge, the rupture is fine
Cause that doesn’t get empowered
But the garrote you gotta let tick fully
calm dome
I get that
balmy condor
How would you guys open up on an aoe pack with MA. FoK into an CT and then spamm...
3x garrote into a finisher
rich yew
Ty!
balmy condor
I actually looked into it yesterday specifically for the edge case of MA in aoe
And it was a tiny loss to do anything else
3x gar into fok was fine, but slightly worse
Not doing 3x gar was actually awful, don’t recommend that
And then all the finishers were basically the same
calm dome
I would love to ask an other question , I ve been reading all your answer and you are like waaay better than wowhead Whispyr
steep badger
can squeeze in ss>st>ss>bp all in one go, big boom on 4+ packs
balmy condor
I would love to ask an other question , I ve been reading all your answer and yo...
XD don’t tell mystler
calm dome
I won't
balmy condor
What’s the question
steep badger
whisps a font of knowledge, we all gain +mental mastery while his presence is active in this chan
calm dome
Wanna do a macro with
/cast Vendetta
/cast Orc racial
/use Haste Trinket
/cast Septis
/cast Shiv
But it seems I cant launch all of them in One click.. I tried many way to order them in the séquence.
Any help for one big one click brust macro ?
balmy condor
The reason that doesn’t work is because sepsis and shiv are on the gcd
So you can do that with sepsis
But adding shiv is problematic
I think a cast sequence might work
stoic needle
youd want the macro to be like this
/use Orc Racial
/use Haste Trinket
/castsequence reset=5 Vendetta, Sepsis, Shiv
balmy condor
But I would just get shiv off of it
You don’t need to cast sequence vendetta
But yeah, that would work
stoic needle
ah vendetta is off the gcd
balmy condor
Yup
balmy condor
You should cast shiv after
stoic needle
youd want to do it before any damaging ability because shiv boosts your nature dmg
stoic needle
ah
balmy condor
If you shiv before sepsis you’re wasting a second on shiv, and you’re not getting the final tick in
stoic needle
I'm not NF so I'm not super experienced with sepsis
personally I like to keep dmg buff cooldowns and damage abilities in separate macros
balmy condor
I macro my trinket to vendetta and that’s it
Everything else gets it’s own button
I even do sub opener the same way
stoic needle
for sub I have dance and symbols and trinket macroed together but shadow blades separate
and thats only because my trinket has a 1min cd
balmy condor
Sod shd sectec shadow blades trinket are seperate on that one
calm dome
Basically
Opening with garrot
SnD
Reach 5 CB
Rupt
Macro ( vendetta trinquet septis racial )
Shiv
And carry on the rotation
??
balmy condor
Uh
With subt single target you’re looking for garrote mut snd
Mut rup cooldowns mut sepsis shiv
And then into enven mut enven mut enven like your normal shiv
If you’re using MA as your legendary, you would vanish towards the end of the sepsis/shiv, making sure the final tick lands in the window
Which isn’t reflected in sims
stoic needle
oh you blow your cooldowns after rupture is up?
balmy condor
But trust me on it xD
calm dome
I do have Doomblade atm
Waiting for Zoldyk
steep badger
well to put it bluntly, the current state of the community lacks passionate players that can use logic and make structured and valid arguements that go against the meta even slightly. Myst is making the best of our shitty situation because we want to play the spec we love and still be competative. Currently we can't do that but the value is in his willingness to assist and answer both complicated and simple questions regarding the spec to best bolster our presence for when the day hopefully comes that bliz fixes sin. Keep them cheeks more frosty less blushy m8 but your're highly valued in this current circle of hades.
balmy condor
Okay with doomblade you’d vanish to refresh the garrotes
balmy condor
oh you blow your cooldowns after rupture is up?
It’s mostly a “pop all your things when you’ve got everything going, so you open with the garrote, that’s done, got slice, so that’s good, and then you rupture, so you got all 3 going, you can’t get more damage out, and now you’re going into sepsis/shiv, which is your “big” (not actually that big) burst window, and that’s in the vendetta no matter what
stoic needle
does running MA change conduit choices at all or is WPS still the best
balmy condor
well to put it bluntly, the current state of the community lacks passionate play...
Thank you :) it really means a lot
stoic needle
yeah now that I think about it popping vendetta while you're setting everything up doesn't seem quite right heh
calm dome
Whats Wps means ?
stoic needle
I haven't been able to get a LP to drop for me sadly
Well Placed Steel
i got a 184 version yesterday
stoic needle
it's funny I get more conduits from world quests and calling caches than I do from dungeons
balmy condor
I have 184’s of all the outlaw conduits
Cause the game is a sick freak
But I also have 184 lethal and wps
Haven’t been lucky with 184’s for sub
Which is sad, cause that’s what I’m playing atm
calm dome
I am passionate about the Sin spirit
Applying bleeds ans poisons, not leaving the target until this one is totally debuff and dead
Also , always wanted to play what I like instead of following the mass and the meta .
Thats why I want to be the best in the Sin spec , representing us
stoic needle
I actually love the way you can switch targets easily with sin
calm dome
True
stoic needle
got rupture and garotte up? cool I can ignore that mob for 15+ seconds
calm dome
Making them all bleed and suffer
balmy condor
Well, kinda, gotta keep an eye on the poison
stoic needle
yeah 15+ is an exaggeration but you get what I mean
it's not the same as needing to be on the boss constantly or you lose dps
stoic needle
i like to build CP with muts on the priority targets and use thee finishers on ones we haven't even touched yet
balmy condor
In say, 2 target cleave
Where you dot up one, and then single target the other
Those dots only exist to give you energy that you then “funnel” into the single target
The damage is honestly not that great
balmy condor
Rupture and unempowered garrotes don’t really do anything
Except act as energy machines
Kind of weird how low their damage is
In comparison to melee’s and envenom for example
stoic needle
yeah that doesn't make much sense to me
balmy condor
And nowadays, the poison damage comes from reapplying the poison, not to the tick damage
We’re maybe looking at an aura buff
stoic needle
whispyr have you tried to make a post about the state of sub on the blizzard forums
balmy condor
But I wouldn’t hold my breath for anything more
balmy condor
I don’t visit that cesspool xD
stoic needle
forget about the people there, dont even reply to them
but if even one blizzard employee reads it... you never know
balmy condor
But I’m sure blizzard has their ways :)
I won’t share the secrets
But they know
Wowhead also has “state of spec” things
Written by the guide writers, so in this case mystler
And he wrote similar things
stoic needle
well as long as they're aware
it just blows my mind that no one at blizzard plays sin lol
calm dome
Stupid question : whats " sims " mean ?
rich yew
@balmy condor how would you open ST with MA? vendetta, garrote, sepsis, mutilate into rupture?
balmy condor
Stupid question : whats " sims " mean ?
Simulations
calm dome
Thanks
rich yew
Trying sin after bfa, this feels so different now haha
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> how would you open ST with MA? vendetta, garrote, sepsis,...
With MA the talent or MA the legendary + garrote
With subterfuge
rich yew
ma legendary 🙂
balmy condor
You would take subterfuge and gar mut snd mut
stoic needle
Does anyone know if there are any working "time to kill/time til death" weakauras for retail?
strange python
u dont need them
balmy condor
I use the one from exorsus
stoic needle
so I can stop putting ruptures on things that won't live more than 10 seconds lol
strange python
time to kill is needed on classic for war cds
balmy condor
But I agree, a little unnecessary
stoic needle
whoa ERT has one built in?
balmy condor
You get a feel for it
stoic needle
I've been trying, but it doesn't work well when your group comp and dps output changes every dungeon
balmy condor
Yeah
Practice and knowledge
I promise you get a feel for it xD
After a couple packs
You can usually tell
You also can sort of guesstimate in your head
Like if you do 3-4 packs and the group is all sitting at like 3k dps and 2.5k from the tank
You can kinda napkin math it to 10-11k
And go from there
calm dome
What whould you recommend to push M+ , last talents options .
Poison bomb / Crissom
balmy condor
Crimson
tropic ocean
Anyone did torghast as sin?
balmy condor
I did 1 run with it
tropic ocean
Clear on layer 3?
tropic ocean
Was it hard?
balmy condor
It was a little rough sometimes, yeah
tropic ocean
I switched off outlaw to sub cuz couldnt finish layer 3 boss on outlaw
balmy condor
Sub is definitely easier
tropic ocean
Generally its so hard on rogue compared to vdh/lock when I did it
They just faceroll no matter what anima or boss
stoic needle
I want to switch to sin full time but I need to grind some more BGs for honor to upgrade my daggers lol
PVPing as sin is... something....
balmy condor
Sad
The word you’re looking for is sad
You see sub global someone and you’re just sitting there crying about dots xD
old snow
tbh bgs as sin is not that bad, arenas tho ye you really dont want to do arenas as sin
stoic needle
they arent that bad, but they certainly aren't "killing someone before the MA buff is over" like sub is
fucking
cheap shot, shadowstrike, shadowstrike, evis, MFD, evis
dead
dont even need to be kyrian lol
hollow escarp
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
stoic needle
it takes a certain kind of person to rep the 'worst' spec and keep developing the pool of knowledge
i was afraid I would only see hardcore min/maxers in retail and I'm glad that's not the case
honest lagoon
Ok will reask my question: what do I do with the Sepsis proc? Ambush seems weak?
stoic needle
I mean to the point where there's no one even to write the guides for it because it isn't BiS
balmy condor
You can ambush or mut
And just ignore the proc
Both are fine and don’t lead to losses
stoic needle
does it give you an 80% more dmg garotte?
balmy condor
No
stoic needle
wtf
balmy condor
No stealth bonuses, just the ability to cast a stealth ability
stoic needle
blegh
stoic needle
NF is the only covenant I considered switching to solely for the soulbinds
honest lagoon
Haven't picked my cov yet, still lvling. Thought I'd pick Night Fae cause their ability seemed nice. Now I don't know anymore
stoic needle
Do you know if General Draven's built for war stacks up again if you go back above 80% hp? The tooltip is kind of unclear
topaz saffron
What 2nd Stat are you putting on your legendry after Haste?
honest lagoon
Crit
balmy condor
Do you know if General Draven's built for war stacks up again if you go back abo...
Believe it does
stoic needle
Oh okay that makes it a lot better than I thought
balmy condor
What 2nd Stat are you putting on your legendry after Haste?
I recommend vers, but crit is fine
honest lagoon
Or that sim stat I hear people talk about a lot :p
stoic needle
Depending on the fight, theotar's parasol is actually nuts
balmy condor
Both still just weaker than nadjia sadly
But I think minus a little bit worse soulbind here or there
They’re all viable
stoic needle
I like that about it
balmy condor
Night fae gets a lot of attention because of burrs and first strike
stoic needle
Each one gives you a different little gameplay minigame or mechanic to track
stoic needle
The fact is that if you perform optimally with your bind's mechanic it's gonna be pretty close to all of the rest of them is a good thing
Idk how they managed that tbh lol
balmy condor
I personally think there should be a little bit more skill involved
Like in my head, I feel like pelagos kyrian should be better
balmy condor
Because collecting orbs + landing on the combo point
Is much more difficult
Than say sepsis
stoic needle
Yeah I get what you mean
grizzled jay
Whispyr join the Dreamweaver gang
balmy condor
I’m good thanks
grizzled jay
pepehands
honest lagoon
I think the biggest motivator right now is the ability to blink around oribos as mounting is useless there
autumn sundial
Anyone have a good WA or addon to track dot timers etc?
balmy condor
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
balmy condor
These are all fine
autumn sundial
thank you!
balmy condor
I personally use my own xD
steep badger
hot take. MA should make all dots applied during the window crit for their full duration.
/drools
stoic needle
Yes
balmy condor
Disagree
Snapshotting is a painful mechanic, not intuitive, and isn’t explained anywhere
stoic needle
What if they explained it 
steep badger
They won’t
balmy condor
Still very unintuitive imo
Like exsang snapshotting haste
Was a Common question in here
Until the very end
steep badger
I think it was broken, only explained once they thought they got it right but sounds like a nightmare to program
Variables within variables within variables
balmy stump
are we still viable?
balmy condor
No
steep badger
I don’t mean broken as in good, I mean broken as in not functioning exactly as intended
balmy condor
That is how it’s intended though
frail birch
You're viable to me, larry ❤️
steep badger
aye, so you're saying the code was always correct?
balmy condor
Cause the people who don’t care, it won’t change how they play
And the min-maxers deal with it as a quirk
steep badger
those JUICY exang windows tho
balmy condor
No need to make everyone’s head explode
Over a forced mechanic that won’t affect most of the community
steep badger
truth, but the metamongers were all over it
which somehow has become 90% of the active community
seemingly
I just hate the forced cookie cutter mentality
then again I guess I'm kind of a hypocrite for being sub atm
but perhaps not so much because the fissure is so large that i get a freebee? sin is my damn spec 😦
balmy stump
@frail birch i just want to know if im switching back to sub lo
l
i just really dont want to
i feel like im always out of energy compared to last xpac
steep badger
i just can't stand losing to my huntard faceroll friend by so little while nailing my rotations, petty perhaps but subs not a bad alternative til we make our comeback
steep badger
they kind of had to
balmy condor
This is basically legion sin
steep badger
snd
balmy condor
And I love it
steep badger
cttc tho
balmy condor
Sepsis is basically king slayer don’t @ me @fleet whale
steep badger
least we had auto snd in legion
i don't even think we had to put it up to start it did we? Feel like i remember it just proccing from the first env
refreshing every env for the same combo pt amount
balmy condor
Yeah that’s an old passive
But it got removed in legion I think
Don’t think we had slice
steep badger
we totally did
balmy condor
But I’m not the person to talk about with that, my memory is actually awful
steep badger
I'm nearly certain i remember it on that nature add fight specifically, was like 3 high hp mob cleave in a bit circle outside in umm
nighthold?
botanist
but yeah i feel like we had cut to the chase
at that time
atomic gate
I miss cut to the chase :(
steep badger
would totally help right now
atomic gate
When I play sub it feels like the spec has so much more tools that it's not even a wow spec, even considering that it's easier than it used to be
And on my mage all 3 specs are fun and interesting, like blizz wasn't afraid to give them cool things
Sin feels like it just has nothing at all. No bones were thrown to sin
steep badger
Cut to the Chase is a passive specialization ability for Assassination rogues, available at level 60. It gives [Envenom] a 100% chance to refresh the 5th combo point duration of [Slice and Dice].
for context
well joshy
unless you're necro
XD
but yeah after leveling sub and clearing m's both weeks, i tried hopping back to sin for a couple and found myself switching back. its so starved and the damage profiles/timing windows just don't fit right now. I think maybe in higher keys with higher hp mobs/fortified ect there's hope for sin but it didn't feel close when i tried in the current content
steep badger
everything dies so fast in each pack that it just feels futile. Bosses arn't bad but still don't compare
the long term dot dmg is that bad eh
thorny pond
SnD for Sin should have just been Cut to the Chase, and if they wanted to mix it up, let us be haste spec and focus on bleeds
balmy condor
Only reason it’s kinda keeping up atm is subterfuge garrotes aren’t expiring
atomic gate
Wat
steep badger
also agreed beach
steep badger
ahh yes
thought you meant on super high hp mobs or bosses
like a refresh keeps up the subt dmg
was like
wwaaaa
balmy condor
Nah
steep badger
but yeah, they needed to work shrouded suf into subt baseline somehow
balmy condor
Mobs dying fast enough to where subt damage is good enough
fleet whale
i mean idk about that whisp
for one thing sepsis has like over double the cd as kingsbane, with that one trait
steep badger
gotcha yeah, i roll with max geared afflic lock/mm hunter in m's and couldn't come close to keeping up on small or large packs when i went back to sin
fleet whale
plus kingsbane was like 10% at least of our damage
fleet whale
if sepsis was like a 45 second cd i would agree with you
also kingsbane was around before TB existed... so idk why people say KB is a tb 2.0
when it should be the other way around
stoic needle
It's fucking ridiculous that sub can run around for 16 seconds tab cheap shotting people in a bg or m+ with evis and cloak up with basically no counterplay
Two coordinated rogues could keep over a dozen people Cc'd for long enough for any randoms to win a teamfight
steep badger
super niche sitch there tho, better options for cc with other classes if you were to put subs real burst use into play. would just require more cordination
stoic needle
Tbf I'm not particularly well versed in the cc of other classes, I just know that I've saved my groups from wiping in m+ from pulling multiple packs by just cc'ing everything for long enough to get the pull stabilized. It feels op as fuck
I'm talking 3+ packs
steep badger
ah, you must not remember mace spec combat rogues in tbc 😄
stoic needle
No I didn't hit max in tbc sadly I was too young heh
steep badger
back in the day, you could spec maces, blade flurry adren rush snd and have a 1/4 chance per swing to stun all mobs in blade flurry range for 2 seconds with no dr
steep badger
nope
it was 2 then removed, then brought back real fast when every rogue team used it
My duos team name was "well timed mace stun"
you'd add in cs/ks and it was hillarious
bf/adren rush them down while prema stunned while rocking t6 early on, those were the days
but yeah comparatively, sins utility is a bit lackluster at the moment 🙂
real bay
mace stun combat was amzinga
steep badger
oh i know, i was guilty of abusing it
steep badger
lmfao
can't lose when they can't fight back
back when they nerfed it i remember feeling wronged but being a bit older and more mature now it was the right call. Just took our fun away lmao
steep badger
how's everyones loot luck been this week? I had 6 blues to replace going into m lockouts, out of 8 dungeons I got one upgrade on the final boss of the final dungeon
I mean static blue to purps, not technical stat upgrades
real bay
getting everything but trinkets
steep badger
that's karma for me buying weps last week
just had the g to spend and saw a deal but unfortunately doesn't make me not "that guy"
I'm literally willing to drop my darkmoon trink for a non on use trink
love the inscrutable quantum device
rather keep it to one on use though
stoic needle
The first week I didn't get anything, had to grind out a full set of pvp gear. The 2nd week I've gotten stacked. Bracers with a socket from wrath of the jailer, decanter of anima winds, and 184s for almost all my slots. Still need weapons, necklace and a helmet though
steep badger
weps are silly when it comes to dps value atm. if you feel like you're just a tiny bit low they'll more than make the dif
mhwdps mainly
stoic needle
I've got 171 pvp daggers so that's about the best I can get atm
steep badger
yeah even those at 184 will be a significant jump if you're just under where you want to be
balmy condor
mhwdps mainly
I think they’re big but not as big as you’d maybe think
steep badger
1 wdps vs 1 agi?
stoic needle
visual storm
Whats up with sin feeling so weak? With the raid coming up I dunno if I can stay.. Got any suggestions?
fleet whale
it's undertuned
balmy condor
1 wdps vs 1 agi?
Wdps seems huge if you’re using stat weights, but from 148 to 171 to 184, dagger dps goes from 24->27->31, so from normal to mythic you’re not really getting huge mega gains
It’s definitely strong, and you still have agi and other stats on it
So it’s for sure a great slot to get an upgrade in
It’s just not this omega win mode stat that everyone makes it out to be
fleet whale
wouldn't surprise me if blizz adds more proc effects in future raid weapons
steep badger
Oh no, idk if you saw but I hedged my statement with "if you feel like you're just a tiny bit low they'll more than make the dif"
then again some may take tiny bit low out of context
steep badger
noted
balmy condor
People sim stat weights and they go “oh wdps is like 11 and agi is 3”
fleet whale
i don't think it was intentional of blizz to have NYA socketed weapons still be bis for pre raid lol
balmy condor
“A weapon upgrade is probably like 400 dps”
stoic needle
wouldn't surprise me if blizz adds more proc effects in future raid weapons
I hope so. I also hope that they change it so that we benefit from bleeds and poisons that come from trinkets with our passives
steep badger
oh totally its a lot more complicated than that
sorta like the rogues that tab target the furthest mob for a few secs and wonder why dps so low
it won't fix that
fleet whale
i wonder what dps we'll end up around by the end of sl
i guess it depends on how many tiers there will be, and borrowed power
but right now were just maybe a little higher dps than naxx 2.0 in wotlk
when in full raid gear
steep badger
hard to speculate because once you mix scaling with balance, they use the ceiling as a bandaid over time
balmy condor
I heard the word
fleet whale
things always get crazy by the last tier though, so i wouldn't be surprised if were doing 20k dps at the last tier
steep badger
totally
balmy condor
The forbidden word
fleet whale
depending on if blizz does bring back tier sets
what they do the current sl systems
more leggos, etc
steep badger
the s word?
balmy condor
The S word
steep badger
or the b word, i didn't see anyone bring up that ct isn't baseline today
ahhh
whoopsie
balmy condor
XD
fleet whale
"scaling" hasn't been a thing since mop ended
steep badger
BUT WHISP ITS ALWAYS USED IN PROPER CONTEXT WITH GREAT STATS TO BACK UP AND CONFIRMED STATED NARRATIVE IN ALL GIVEN SCENARIOS
balmy condor
Varo no, the sub players will come and tell us how good sin will be in two tiers
fleet whale
you know what's ironic
even when scaling was thing
sin was usually one of the weaker scaling specs
and it was sub/combat that scaled better lol
if you were so bold to play sub pve back then
balmy condor
WoD sub was sick
steep badger
the game let you into an instance while speccd sub back then?
fleet whale
yeah im talking pre wod sub
steep badger
thinking pre wod
balmy condor
Yeah I wasn’t around that far
fleet whale
wod sub was when blizz made it into a true pve spec
steep badger
yeah
balmy condor
WoD baby
steep badger
BoD
fleet whale
wod sub benefited greatly from a lot of wod things
fleet whale
highmaul had one dagger
steep badger
yep
fleet whale
and crap stats for both sub and assassin
fleet whale
BRF had two daggers but they seemed to drop all the time for me
steep badger
I quit after 4 h clears without getting one in highmaul, couple months before brf opened. Think i was just salty but was also super busy irl, honestly wouldn't have quit if i had 1 though
was rocking the pvp version but wasn't quite enough for me at the time
fleet whale
there are people in the sub channel that say that "sin will always be viable"
steep badger
literally couldn't get one through rf or norm, clearing all each week
fleet whale
even at it's current state lol
steep badger
they're dillusional
fleet whale
i've legit seen people say that sin is a half ranged spec lol
might be the worst take
steep badger
...
balmy condor
“You can walk away and still do damage, unlike me, a sub player that doesn’t use rupture”
steep badger
tell them to talk to some survival hunters
steep badger
being a convert I actually had a really hard time not rupturing every mob for a while as sub
steep badger
huuuge
fleet whale
plus sub has two shadowstep charges
and a majority of there damage comes from windows
steep badger
yeah they seem to think collectively that all our dmg is rupture/garrote/dp
dot procs
fleet whale
so even if they spend a few seconds off the boss, they really don't lose much
steep badger
nope, there's actually a lot of fights that work in subs favor really well now
boss phases into burst window, phases out, by the time they come back dance and symbols are back up off cd
"but sins dots stay on"
fleet whale
whenever you're off boss as sub, it is almost always times where your just backstabbing and out of dance
so sub doesn't really lose that much dps
steep badger
yeah they don't understand that
it doens't fit the narrative
so obviously lies
i feel like a deeply embeded mole in the enemy camp atm
just a lot of converts that parrot meta language
fleet whale
wod sub was also only like 40-45 apm
raven karma
sub in pve starts à wowtlk with combo points generates by critical from others persons in group and spam eviscerate
steep badger
yeah, not sure what it is now but it feels much higher. I'm constantly 110% engaged and simple fuckups ruin the whole rotation/fight dps wise
never truly understood how bad not lining up dance/symbols perfectly would do but holy shit it feels like a 500 dps loss per fight if you're 2 secs off. learned that early on
fleet whale
wotlk was the beginning of the change but was only a good pve spec for a very brief moment
then they fixed honor amongst thieves, and it become the worst raiding spec in the game
steep badger
feel like it was relatively silent after that til wod, then silent til say...zul?
raven karma
@fleet whale yes was the beginning
steep badger
@stoic needle you're stacking celestial?
may want to change oh if you're looking to min/max. It clips itself
doesn't stack but just cuts off last proc and begins its own, not a must but something to think about. I like lightless force on oh
balmy condor
People stack celest atm cause it’s cheap
steep badger
gotcha, just looked like he was min/maxing
stoic needle
Yeah it's cheap I cba to spend for sinful until my dagger is 184 at least
Just in case I get one before then
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
severe heath
