assassination

[balmy condor]

Outlaw has a special metric no other spec has, dpw

Which stands for damage per word

[quiet oar]

Actually true

But also

[royal lantern]

so THATS why they are always typing so much

[quiet oar]

Stat Stick with vers

Is pretty good

Because vers makes Green text even bigger

[balmy condor]

Yeah but have you seen the passive on that vers stat stick?

[quiet oar]

True actually

[balmy condor]

It’s a full paragraph for “sometimes you take less damage”

[quiet oar]

No sometimes you silence an enemy thst does damage

[balmy condor]

Yeh, so less damage

[quiet oar]

Sadge thst time strike isnt Green

But if i think about it

Outlaw wants engi stuff

Which is also a lot of Text

Sub is spreadsheet gaming

Outlaw is textbook gaming

[royal lantern]

assa is animal pics

[midnight atlas]

why would you play the silence trinket when you got bandolier + midas

bandolier is so cool when you reposition and get the whole pack

[plucky canopy]

And than there is more than 5 mobs, and you realise even your bis trinket is target capped

[keen spruce]

which is ironic cuz outlaw players can't read

[dark token]

sin is payphone

[keen spruce]

they just count the number of letters in the text and if it's more than another item they equip it

[quiet oar]

Looks like a roasted duck is on the menu

[keen spruce]

oh so i'm safe then cuz you can't read what's on the menu

[quiet oar]

But i know what a roasted duck looks like

[keen spruce]

[royal lantern]

well, dont need to read

just look for a item that has many words

[keen spruce]

i said that

right after

[royal lantern]

1 of the Words is probably "deals X dmg"

well yeha, i cant read either

[keen spruce]

i think it's just a rogue thing

[royal lantern]

nah, i see a comment, hit reply and dont read the rest

[quiet oar]

So you are outlaw confirmed

[median flicker]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[spice spire]

Real

[raven flower]

I just want to replace my 463 branch man why does it have to be so strong

[arctic socket]

Lot of mastery

Good luck in your everbloom / fall dungeons

[magic sparrow]

I'm trying to replace my 483 one 🤣🤣. Need the ashes

On my DH too

[raven flower]

I would replace it with ashes in a heartbeat just to get rid of the clunk

[gray hazel]

I don’t like how ashes takes away haste from you at the end 😦

[raven flower]

how many % is it approximately?

[unique plume]

Hi assas, what weak aura for assa would you recommend for someone who likes minimalist add-ons (I try to have very few only essential ones)?

[wet ruin]

rupture and garrote, I use the default health and energy you get that also has some buffs on it to track my envenom and snd

[pure moth]

Ive run sims many times. However, at this point it keeps wanting more vers. but if i start equipping what it tells me; my crit drops to 33%. I generally sit around 40%. I know we want a balance of stats and all. but it seems a little excessive to be dropping that much crit. thoughts?

[drifting cloud]

trust the robot, you dont even need to know your current crit % youre just gaslighting yourself into thinking its relevant

[midnight atlas]

stats are just lies anyway

different ways to deal more dmg.

if 5% vers deals more dmg than 5% crit take whatever deals more dmg

[inland furnace]

Potentially stupid question but what scenarios are there where I should be using 4/5CP envenoms?

[drifting cloud]

uhm, all of them?

[inland furnace]

ok might've missed a memo nvm then

[arctic socket]

Only time you are using envenom below 4 combo points is that last .2% off a boss to squeeze in that last extra damage to your meters lmao

[arctic venture]

Guys it better use 2 nick of time 483 or one nick of time and 1 dagger 489?

for m+?

[arctic socket]

Sim yourself, it will most likely be 489 main hand / 483 offhand tho

[arctic venture]

yes, simc is telling me to keep 489 dagger in main hand and nick of time in off.

[spice spire]

489 mh for sure

[arctic venture]

I Was wondering the buff.

[arctic socket]

Follow what robot says

[spice spire]

Nick is only bis because cantrip

[inland furnace]

Other dumb question - is it worthwhile to use tea along with KB/Dance then again at 6s left to maintain the mastery buff through all of KB

[spice spire]

489 base damage > 483 cantrip

[inland furnace]

Or just in the last 6s

On DM windows

[spice spire]

No just last 6s

Not dumb

But has been asked

[inland furnace]

Fair LOL

[spice spire]

Not all questions are dumb

Just questions from @arctic socket

[arctic socket]

Keilosh ask him to log review your logs

[spice spire]

Point proven

[arctic socket]

That isn’t a question that’s a statement

[inland furnace]

i cant my guild private logs I'm farmed

[spice spire]

Only thing I’m questioning is your statement

[arctic socket]

George deserves a log review

[quiet oar]

What is the crit cap quake

[spice spire]

[stone gust]

Hey guys should I be using shiv then dance/kb or do I go shiv/dance then kb?

[spice spire]

He’s perfect in every way, literally 0 mistakes

[arctic socket]

What haste % do we get for unlimited energy?

[spice spire]

Are you asking about which you should macro together?

[spice spire]

Wasn’t this like 219% or some shit

I know whispyr actually did the math one day

[arctic socket]

That seems achievable

[spice spire]

In sims yeah it is

[arctic socket]

How many priests is that tho for the unlimited pi?

[stone gust]

Ehh not a macro fan, just sequencing so I can better my binds

[arctic socket]

Shiv dance kb

[spice spire]

That’s why I’m confused

They’re both the same sequence

[arctic socket]

I’m confused as wells

So just tell him what he said

[spice spire]

On principle, no.

[arctic socket]

What

Quake presses kb shiv dance then dm

[spice spire]

That gave me an aneurysm

And I haven’t even played this iteration of assassination

[arctic socket]

Whispyr approved

[spice spire]

[junior yoke]

Damn

Are we gonna get some buff on 10.2.5?

3% back to school?

[spice surge]

I think youre gonna end up disappointed if youre expecting any sort of rogue buff in the foreseeable future

[hearty reef]

[spice spire]

Ur so real for that

He’s right tho

If rogue gets buffed

Literally the world economy will collapse in protest

Or wow gamers get mad because “rogue always OP”

One of the two

[hearty reef]

ALWAYS

[junior yoke]

Sorry I’m just reading bm hunter

3 buttons spec top meters

Bite my pet, bite

[spice spire]

Enemies of the State:

1. Mages
2. boomkin
3. Locks
4. hunters (saved only because survival is an incredibly based spec)

[junior yoke]

HAHAHAHAHA

I remember back in shadowlands

[quiet oar]

Survival is cool

[junior yoke]

Fire mages 😂

Who wants a rogue with ranged specs existing? Tf?

[spice spire]

Real

Same shit with survival

But survival is actually fun

[junior yoke]

Never played it really

[quiet oar]

Im just annoyed

That CA is capped

[junior yoke]

Go play dh then

[quiet oar]

like 4 Kill shot

[quartz locust]

people who haven't touched PvP in years still use the argument that rogues are too good in PvP to get buffed PvE lol

[quiet oar]

Just Uncap it !?

[spice spire]

Ur kink is capped specs innit outlaw man

[quiet oar]

And Survival will strive again

[spice spire]

Real

[quiet oar]

I have an Demo alt

So i dont think so

[junior yoke]

Is outlaw still existing?

[quiet oar]

and DH tank

[junior yoke]

Combat back?

[quiet oar]

Wdym?

Outlaw is prob the best M+ spec rn

[spice spire]

https://tenor.com/view/jail-gif-14286428994025491514

[quiet oar]

from rogue

[junior yoke]

I know

I hate outlaw

That’s all

[junior yoke]

Just personal

[spice surge]

https://tenor.com/view/jail-believe-it-or-not-believe-it-or-not-jail-parks-and-rec-gif-3275634010746838096

[spice spire]

God ur so real for that

[quiet oar]

Look at this big boi

[spice spire]

Higher ilvl than my rogue wtf

[quiet oar]

Oh boi

[spice spire]

(She’s still 446)

[junior yoke]

I’m 479 😦

[stone gust]

Lmao sorry got busy at office but isn’t dance off global? I feel like I can dance and instantly press a global

[spice surge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byt2M4FCQs8
My reaction to this alt

[spice spire]

The shtick is I haven’t played this tier

[junior yoke]

Got my 489 nick yesterdat

[quiet oar]

I ahve like 4 alts on 480

[junior yoke]

And I have 463 shoulders LET’S GOOO

[quiet oar]

Christmas time was well spend

[stone gust]

That’s why I was asking that weird sequence lmao

[quiet oar]

Fair

[spice spire]

Dance is off global.
The 0.8s makes little diff. Just try to get it right before KB.

[spice spire]

Yeah I spent it with family. Pretty disgusted with myself tbh

[spice surge]

We can dance unhindered by global limitations

[quiet oar]

Ye you should work on that next year

There i some serious slacking at your end

[spice spire]

Fr

Think of all the log reviews I could have done

[spice spire]

https://tenor.com/view/safety-dance-men-without-hats-your-friends-dont-dance-no-friends-of-mine-80s-music-gif-19450329

(This is before my time I’m not that much of a boomer)

[quiet oar]

Right?

I mean

it wouldnt matter anyways

Everyone plays sub now

Sin deadge

[spice spire]

It’s always people missing lethal dose from dm on the final tick any way

[spice surge]

You definitely notice it in #subtlety, so many people asking if they can macro everything together

[spice spire]

Typing

[unique plume]

👀

[spice spire]

[slate crown]

!wa can take a look at these packs by folks here. Also can check out the LE’s Profile link for a bunch of standalones if you don’t want a full pack and are trying to keep things minimal. Improved Garrote tracking is an important one.

@spice spire

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Profile (lots of one-off weakauras)
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater
Pooling Practice Tool

[spice spire]

I missed a help post

I know if no one’s got me L “Self Promotion” E’s got me

[shy pecan]

Can you review my log?

[spice spire]

Sure

I know it’s a meme

But sure

[slate crown]

Ohhh log. Right that’s much more appropriate

[royal python]

How much crit should one have

[spice surge]

"When do i use vanish" is the worst one though because it feels unhelpful as shit responding to it by saying something like "check lorrgs.io" since its just so convoluted

[spice spire]

Enough to where robot says no more crit

No set point tbh as everyone’s profile is slightly different

[spice surge]

Just follow your sim and dont bother caring about your stat percentages

[slate crown]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

There are no "recommended stat levels" or "breakpoint of X stat" or "required" amount of any stats. This is an outdated way to think about stats and simply is not relevant to the spec. If you're looking for a quick recommendation: Agi >> Mast = Crit = Haste > VersatilityIt's always more accurate to simulate your own character, as stat procs like Witherbark's Branch and Wafting Devotion can often de-value the stat in question. Stats are not a rigid construct, their values change constantly in relation to each other depending on your character.

[royal python]

Usually that's about what? 32% or 37 or 42

[spice spire]

No set point tbh as everyone’s profile is slightly different

[crisp pine]

They're all lying, you actually wanna have exactly 70% crit

[spice spire]

Man I love sub rogue so much

[shy pecan]

What do you think of this log?

[spice spire]

7.2/10.
Nicely cut, but could be smaller and it isn’t very aged yet

[dark token]

orange log for sure

[spice surge]

I'd like to split that log

[crisp pine]

Fuck you mean it's not aged, did you count the rings or what

[spice spire]

Yes

[crisp pine]

That's fair then, have a nice day

[shy pecan]

I'll have some more logs to review later @spice spire

[spiral heart]

can anyone help me looking at my logs? I feel like my dps goes to shit after the opener ends

[spice spire]

Ty

[spice spire]

Post them I’ll thread it

But also

We’re a burst class that’s kinda how we function

[spiral heart]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/n9rwJ1xzdmZX4hR3#fight=19&type=damage-done&source=41 does that link work?

[spice spire]

Yes

[spiral heart]

thank you!

[quiet oar]

I splitted my log for you

[storm monolith]

So as it would turn out

17s are kinda hard

Group had...... 18 deaths

[vestal wren]

damn, you rly like to do split runs

[spice spire]

Splits this late into the tier? HUH

[quiet oar]

Need to gear alts now you know

[magic sparrow]

Seen bigger wood before 😉😅😏

[shy pecan]

[spice spire]

[spice surge]

https://cdn.frankerfacez.com/emoticon/494889/4

[magic sparrow]

See the bushes are even trimmed, making it appear bigger 😉🤣

[slate crown]

What a god damn log.

Mages tic

[slate crown]

Why would autocorrect do this . What in the god damn hell is a “Mages tic”

[spice spire]

Maybe you can answer that, LE

What is a mages tic

Haram chat this morning

[quiet oar]

For you its morning

For European its afternoon

[spice spire]

Boon

[quiet oar]

Auto correct is a bitch

Ngl

[spice spire]

Yeah I’m just bullying

[magic sparrow]

Pollymorph Tic? 🤣

[spice spire]

LE mage main now

[slate crown]

I do have a mage

that I haven't logged into in a long while

[arctic socket]

[spice surge]

@spice spire got all my consumes ready for raid tonight

[spice spire]

Jail

[spice spire]

I too am an ape

[quartz locust]

https://tenor.com/view/donhertzfeldt-rejected-familylearningchannel-banana-gif-3476878

[spice spire]

Holy boomer

I recognize therefore I am

[arctic socket]

Realest thing you have said in a while

[quartz locust]

i'm an elder memer

[spice spire]

Why are you a hater man

[quartz locust]

do note cite the deep memery to me, i was there when it was written

[spice spire]

Same

[slate crown]

Me too i'm ready

[spice spire]

Mfs in SoD

My brethren and sistren in Christ, it was just current content in 2021

[crisp pine]

It's over

[spice spire]

I’ve literally never seen this

[slate crown]

why would they even invite first

[vestal wren]

how

is he writing __r__ogue with lower case
__S__pec with upper case
and sry with lower case again

you dodged a bulled, i am 90% sure this guy is a psycho

[spice spire]

Someone triggered fuu

[crisp pine]

Maybe they were praying I'd change to outlaw after the invite

[spice spire]

Never seen it in real time

[vestal wren]

i was just making a joke about it

haha, didn't think i would get over as triggered

[spice spire]

I know

I don’t know if I have the concept of seriousness 85% of the time

[slate crown]

__r__ouge* too

[vestal wren]

ohh

haha

didn't notice

thats a good one

[crisp pine]

Alright guys, I'm in another group, wish me luck they don't hover over my unitframe

[spice spire]

Good luck

[vestal wren]

good luck

do people mandate outlaw atm

or is subtlety also okay?

[spice surge]

That other warlock man missed the memo that assa isnt a meme in m+ anymore

Im playing assa in m+ and sub in raid 💀 What a time to be alive

[spice spire]

Nah it’s C tier this week (probably, maybe?) so it’s unplayable

[crisp pine]

Honestly this was the first time anyone ever commented on it yet straight up removed me

Absolutely hilarious tho

Didn't even give me time to plead my case

[spice surge]

No need to harass them specifically

[vestal wren]

damn, let me check archon quick

[spice spire]

[vestal wren]

!affix

[prisma monolith]

Affixes: Tyrannical, Volcanic, Sanguine

[crisp pine]

yea it was a 22, no idea what he was on about tbh

[spice surge]

Its data driven guides, how could it possible be incorrect? ./s

[spice spire]

Yeah no need for that. Not against the rules or anything but it’s a greater problem at large with the community

[vestal wren]

damn

[spice spire]

God I’m so real

We’re so fucking back baby

[vestal wren]

small goals

[spice spire]

Back in the dumpster where I belong

[vestal wren]

we beating shadow priest and feral druid

[keen spruce]

I’ve had a mixed bag of “thank god you’re playing Assas, these pirates do no fking boss damage” to “if I knew I needed to kill yazma adds I would have played frost”

[gusty mirage]

ROUGE

[crisp pine]

What the fuck is happening

[gusty mirage]

lazy tank

[spice spire]

[gusty mirage]

doesn't want to have to do sanguine properly

[crisp pine]

putting on crippling now

[gusty mirage]

CHAD

[spice spire]

GIGA chad holy@fuck

Fuck them kids

Move outta your consecrate bozo

It has a negative cd

[blazing jewel]

[spice surge]

Those aggregation websites puts sub in like B-tier for raid

Very accurate

[blazing jewel]

It needs a buff

[spice spire]

Wow has a new meta

A wow meta if you will

[spice surge]

Wow!

[spice spire]

Maybe with a hyphen in between

[lavish wing]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pk4CFxM2fd8XzfHTcajnte

anyone knows wtf is this trinket

[spice surge]

Its a vers stat stick

Pretty good

[lavish wing]

this proc is useless?

[keen spruce]

Vers trink from blackrook hold

[fallow canopy]

the only meta class is DH, for obvious reasons

[keen spruce]

Yeah proc is pretty useless

[lavish wing]

I mean, all benefit is from the flat stats?

[spice surge]

The proc doesnt take up any of the power budget of the trinket

[spice spire]

Meta this meta that but have you meta grass?

[spice surge]

yes its just stats

[lavish wing]

k, tnx

[fallow canopy]

I'm about to meta grass

[spice spire]

Nice

I’m about to metagross

Or whatever that Pokémon’s name is

[fallow canopy]

80% sure that's correct

[lucid rain]

idk what it is but sanguine makes frost mages crawl out of the woodwork

like any other week, nowhere to be seen

sanguine? it's ice time

[gusty mirage]

true, they should buff sub

from fyrakk prog last night

sub needs a buff

[magic sparrow]

Gosh yes. I miss Sub keys

[gusty mirage]

maybe even nerf assassination another 3% for no reason

ya know

for good measure

[dark crag]

Buff bp and bp 2pc

[lucid rain]

someone at blizz lost to an assassination rogue in raid

[magic sparrow]

Honestly assassa even on the charts means it needs a nerf

[lucid rain]

probably a dh

make assassination a tank

so it just disappears

[raven flower]

good job to garry

nerf dh just to make sure

[gusty mirage]

no we don't compliment gary

[vestal wren]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-what-are-you-waiting-for-determined-angry-gif-5247874

[earnest remnant]

damn who that handsome fella at the top of the meters

[spice surge]

#assassination message

Blizzard script too predictable these days

[gusty mirage]

[vestal wren]

they kind or do the same thing every patch now

[gray crest]

Eleem is Nostradamus confirmed

[vestal wren]

"yo we want people to play sin, lets buff it by A LOT"

-- statistics show sin op

"nerf that shit"

[gusty mirage]

nerf it back down to earth

then a week or two later overnerf it for no reason

[vestal wren]

"nerf it again, damn..."

the 2nd time always overshooting

[gusty mirage]

the melee auto attack damage was just adding insult to injury tbh

[vestal wren]

ironically, sub is only good because of that usually

[gusty mirage]

sub benefits from people refusing to play it

[vestal wren]

well i man

[gusty mirage]

and btw big shocker here, outlaw is good for fyrakk

[vestal wren]

sin sims 5-10% ahead of sub

"people refuse to play sub for a reason i cant comprahent"

[gusty mirage]

remember when we said outlaw is good for fyrakk

[vestal wren]

(that was 10.0 at least)

[gusty mirage]

and everyone said we were wrong?

[vestal wren]

fyraak has no damage amp phase

don't see why outlaw would be bad

[gusty mirage]

"BUT THE SHIELD DAMAGE THAT EVERYONE CLEARS EASILY NOW"

[vestal wren]

maybe it was not the best early on

[gusty mirage]

outlaw cranks the p2 adds as well

[vestal wren]

i think the key issue with switching to outlaw is weapons

[spice surge]

The sub tier set on the ptr was pretty fun too oxi
Players: "tier is wasting all its cp so its not very good"
Blizz: "Alright were buffing the damage part"
Players: "but the cp?"
Blizz: "Alright we fixed the cp too"
Blizz: "Hold up, the set is tuned a bit too high, oh well too close to release"

No data from ptr so theyre just guessing how good shit is for sub

[vestal wren]

haha

tbh i think 10.0 sub was quite well balanced

[quartz locust]

just had to wait for the sole enh shaman to get thorncallers

[vestal wren]

i know its a hot take in this channel (So sorry in advanced)

[gusty mirage]

just log 1000s of hours on PTR and figure it out

idk

seems easy man, just quit your job and test it

who needs food anyway

or shelter

[keen spruce]

so was assas until the 3rd round of nerfs

[gusty mirage]

no, they didn't need to

outlaw's damage profile is flatter than my outlook on life

[earnest remnant]

outlaw will always be a meme raid spec

[vestal wren]

i am completely with you on this, blizz somehow overshoots the nerfs

[spice surge]

They still might for m+ but idk with how strong mages and DHs are probably not

[arctic socket]

they should nerf sin one more time to make it three in a row

[gusty mirage]

balancing around m+ after they let the god comp run rampant for 2 months last season is an actual joke

[vestal wren]

just need some BP buffs for sub

[spice spire]

Just like sin in m+ amen

[keen spruce]

i just want big AoE buffs to sub so I don't have to eventually switch to pirate

in M+

[gusty mirage]

sadly m+ is where assa is best

cause its single target is dogshit now

[spice spire]

Yeah

Could have fooled any non rogue player tho

C-tier unluigi

[vestal wren]

devs are just back in office, so tuning will come soon

[gusty mirage]

getting fed PI to middle of the pack vs giving it to an already giga strong BM hunter

we'll see those numbers people are using to say "this is fine" dwindle as more assa rogues lose their PIs to BM hunters

[vestal wren]

PI seems to be the issue tho

[gusty mirage]

any raid leader with a brain would just tell them to swap sub and give the PI to the BM hunter for a bigger gain for raid dps

[quiet oar]

I mean didnt the same happen in s1

[vestal wren]

yes

[quiet oar]

Like sin and Outlaw wrre so good

[gusty mirage]

10.0 was a little bit different, all 3 were good

[spice spire]

Nah I’ll gaslight the fuck outta them

[quiet oar]

And buff wrre over nerfed

And everything else was buffed

[gusty mirage]

all 3 got nerfed, assassination got overnerfed

[vestal wren]

10.0.5 had the sin rework

so 10.2.5 sin rework again?

[gusty mirage]

and everyone played sub by the end of the tier lmao

[vestal wren]

correct me if i am wrong

[quiet oar]

Like always

Because why not???

[gusty mirage]

most were forced to swap sub

[vestal wren]

but wasn't that a consequence of the failed attempt to make sin good

[gusty mirage]

cause it was objectively better for rasz

[spice spire]

Dragonflight? More like Sub expansion am I right?

[keen spruce]

you mean the exang move and spec tree shuffle?

[quiet oar]

Sometimes it feels like rogue is a 1 spec class

[keen spruce]

I thought that was before .5

[gusty mirage]

idk I was told assassination was terrible last tier

and I played it for all of prog

[keen spruce]

but i could be misremembering

[spice spire]

Just like me fr

[vestal wren]

10.0.5 had the biggest attention to sin, it got a small rework that did remove choice sadly
so instead of having a KB and a Dtb build you ended up with only one build, pure st output was still ahead of sub and outlaw

10.0.7 was the death scentence tho

[gusty mirage]

remember when exsanging DM was broken with zero spell data changes and zero patch notes

for like

[vestal wren]

you can look it up in #tc-research

[gusty mirage]

6 months?

[keen spruce]

i believe the bug was introduced in january

[gusty mirage]

it wasn't

it was in december

with 10.0.5

[keen spruce]

and lasted until 10.1

[gusty mirage]

no it lasted until 10.2

when they completely reworked exsang

[keen spruce]

.2 yes

exqueeze me

we just found out in .1 and stopped playing exang

[vestal wren]

#tc-research message

[spice spire]

Ur excused mister duck man

[gusty mirage]

the bug was still there we just didn't play exsang in 10.1 cause it was broken

[spice surge]

Average wow players rogue knowledge:
Assa - Raid spec
Outlaw - M+ spec
Sub - idk what the fuck this does

[spice spire]

Both but better

[vestal wren]

"we did hear sin was good on st, would be bad if sub/outlaw suddenly get +7% dps"

[keen spruce]

sub is pvp spec ofc

[gusty mirage]

those the annulet numbers? @vestal wren

[spice surge]

Ah yes ofc

[vestal wren]

yes

[gusty mirage]

that piece of shit ring

[spice surge]

Shmeeps is correct

[spice spire]

Annulet

[vestal wren]

annulet essentially equalized

[spice spire]

[vestal wren]

the output again

making sin look way worse than it was

because now all 3 ended up about euqal on st

[gusty mirage]

remember when they said they didn't want us to use it for mythic prog in 10.1

[spice spire]

[gusty mirage]

and we still used it until max ilvl rings?

[vestal wren]

tbh

[gusty mirage]

and I think outlaw/sub used it perma

until nerf

[spice spire]

No borrowed power

Annulet

[vestal wren]

i don't think the balance team did consider specs getting multiple the value

from annulet

[gusty mirage]

brother it aint borrowed if you're using it for 8 months

it's yours

[keen spruce]

i had to use that PoS in mythic prog in 10.0.7, still not kill razegath, and use it in 10.1

[vestal wren]

10.1 was also wild

[spice spire]

Gonna use this on a shirt

[vestal wren]

when sub simmed best with rotten

[keen spruce]

the rotten cook

was pretty funny

[vestal wren]

then we found out that secret tech did get twice the damage amp benefits

[keen spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/joe-pesci-what-the-fuck-wtf-wtf-is-that-what-the-fuck-is-this-gif-24937450

half of sub ^

when the rotten build got posted

[vestal wren]

it was funny

because sub did look rly good early on

but would naturally fall behind sin

tho given the bug, it did not

so sin got again scammed out of beeing the raid spec

it was later in the patch buffed to make it mor appealing

[keen spruce]

the thing is that like... sin is already unpopular enough

that even if it's busted

i don't feel like it has a large negative impact on play rates of other classes

so like

just let us have a tier

[spice surge]

Aberrus also had the wcl classic of assa being at the absolute bottom and sub slightly above average
Then assa got a 5% buff and its suddenly near the top and sub is at the absolute bottom

[keen spruce]

or like wait until .5 to nerf us

[magic sparrow]

Haven't had one since like the last tier of BFA

[spice spire]

No one remembers 9.1 man

[vestal wren]

you mean in terms of play rate?

[sweet dawn]

Pls just let the poison bois be good

[spice spire]

Season of discovery I mean sanctum of domination

[spice surge]

nah wcl damage statistics

[spice spire]

All three rogues bing chilling at the top

[vestal wren]

oh, i didn't know sub was that bad at the end

[spice spire]

Boomkin behind

As god intended

[vestal wren]

i remember shadowlands season 3/4

when sub was rly bad

[spice surge]

It was "bad" because most of the good sub players swapped to assa

[spice spire]

That tier set was

A uh

Abomination

[spice surge]

Sub itself didnt change

[keen spruce]

SLG was so bad it made me quit WoW until dragonflight

so i missed the good assas tiers

[vestal wren]

BUT S3 SL SUB WAS INSANE for the first 2 weeks

[spice spire]

Krill issue tbh

[vestal wren]

and thats what matters, right

[keen spruce]

I only got to play the "assas does 60% of the damage of an actual spec" tier

[vestal wren]

who cares about the 12 months after

[spice spire]

It literally got buffed in the .5 there

CttC

And buffs

[keen spruce]

yes yes

and doomblade

[spice spire]

Fuck venthyr became a real covenant

[keen spruce]

but before that

[spice spire]

Oxi and I were no longer in shambles

I remember the before

[keen spruce]

I was trying to raid lead as a pirate

then just ended up benching myself to 21st man

[vestal wren]

iirc it was bad because EoN did fall off

[keen spruce]

until the assas fixes

[vestal wren]

you had an initial advantage due to EoN carry over power

but once other specs/classes got gear sub was bottom of the chart

[gusty mirage]

[vestal wren]

you could see it even during the race back then

[gusty mirage]

2 GCDs for flag

Actual dps loss to use the ability

[haughty lily]

Can someone clarify the M+ Opener for like 10+ targets?

Is it garrote, rup(any combo points), mutilate, 4 cp crimson -) kingsbane rotation?

i have no idea where to find the opener for m+ on any resources since they mostly cover like under 5 targets

[vestal wren]

to be fair

i think everyone wants to forget SL, so it does not matter

[woeful meteor]

SL Raids where fun overall better than the DF ones imo

[keen spruce]

10+ probably gonna be
gar-gar-gar-rupture-mut-fan-rupture-fan to 5+cp-envenom large target-burst

[spice spire]

More concept based tbh. Use your opener to spread your bleeds, garrote and rupture is good, once the IC window is over, or you’ve spread your bleeds, then you can use your CDs + mut to spread via spatter.

Remember to fan once to spread poison

Maintain Ct

[acoustic roost]

If you got the juice from a Kyrian Druid, SL was great 😂

[spice spire]

Etc

[keen spruce]

sometimes you skip second reupture

sometimes you add more ruptures

[spice spire]

Yeah it’s kind of a flow chart

[keen spruce]

like if it's 10+ everbloom dreadpetals and one caster

[spice spire]

As it’s always been until the crutch ic

[vestal wren]

Hot take, i think DF was mid in terms of xpac

[keen spruce]

I might not even spread multiple garrotes

just bleed the large guy and start burst before the dh kills everything

[spice spire]

DF had some real positives

[vestal wren]

Dragonflight had a lot of positivity around it

[spice spire]

But I do think it was mid.
Unfortunately. Another 3 tier xpac kinda misses the mark for me

[woeful meteor]

I only played SL and DF and aside from this Tier being good everything else about it is kinda boring

[keen spruce]

as soon as fated got announced

DF get demoted

to giga mid

[haughty lily]

isnt CT very important though? prio bleeds are CT > Garrote > rup? for 10+ targets? btw sorry for interupting your convo 😅

[keen spruce]

oh I don't play a CT build anymore

but you can CT during your burst

or right before

[vestal wren]

i think DF changed a lot to be good

[woeful meteor]

SL had better raids and since I was new I didn't mind Korthia

[spice spire]

Our job is to help. You’re not interrupting. CT is good to maintain. But it’s kind of a press once and wait until it’s in pandemic again, press it again

[haughty lily]

KB doesnt effect CT though right

so i could ct before kb

[spice spire]

@ember mural we have a live one

[vestal wren]

e.g. DF introduced a promising crafting system, but for me it never managed to beat the old system (e.g. like it was in legion)

[spice spire]

Correct

[keen spruce]

yeah the balancing act is between spreading bleeds and getting your burst out as quick as possible

[gaunt moat]

I feel like the story had real potential
but then the writing just took a nosedive and the end bosses we got to fight (except Raszagath) weren't that interesting character-wise

[keen spruce]

if you delay too long

everything dies to burst

[vestal wren]

DF made it a lot easier to paly alts tho, just positive things to that

[keen spruce]

if you go to fast, not enough bleeds

[ember mural]

[keen spruce]

just gotta kind of feel it out

[spice spire]

I agree. Had similar thoughts with SL. Denathrius was a really cool story line, the rest went a little weird

[gaunt moat]

Fyrakk doesn't feel like an end-expansion boss.

[keen spruce]

I gave 0 fucks about anything story related in this xpac

[woeful meteor]

Korthia was goated just finished school was waiting for Uni to start so I just sat in front of rares spawns playing TFT and Arams good times

[keen spruce]

for the first time in a quite a while

[vestal wren]

Denathrius was killed too early

[keen spruce]

Denathrius was a suprise banger villan though

[vestal wren]

why not extend him as the core enemy over the xpac

[spice spire]

I didn’t mind the timing but I thought denathrius was a great storyline

[keen spruce]

I think he was designed to just be a throw away intro to the SL area

[spice spire]

And then they followed it up with

[keen spruce]

but just hit the right notes

[spice spire]

Sanctum of domination and

[vestal wren]

haha

[spice spire]

It felt very out of place

[keen spruce]

tbh

[vestal wren]

they rly dragged sylvanas though the mud

[keen spruce]

in hindsight

[vestal wren]

in SL

[keen spruce]

bfa story kinda slapped

compared to df

[gaunt moat]

Sarakarath was like a.. who are you even? do we know you?

[keen spruce]

except for then doin vol'jin dirty

[vestal wren]

change my mind

Legion did everything correct

[keen spruce]

Sark came outta left field and I still don't know dick about him

or why we're beating up some random lizard twink in neltharion's void library

[spice spire]

[keen spruce]

I thought it was gonna be a pretty easy

[gaunt moat]

would have made more sense to have echo of nelf the final boss. if it was a better fight.

[keen spruce]

4 incarnate dragons

4 raid tiers

they kinda set themselves up for success here

all different themed

with different elements

woulda be pretty fkin ez to execute

[gaunt moat]

yeah that's what i expected too

but then vyranoth changing alliances was the biggest crap i've ever seen

[keen spruce]

and it would have make fyrakk decent into crazy make more sense

as his siblings die

he gets more unhinged

amir could still be last raid tier

just missing 2 in the middle

AND IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DIDN'T PLAN FOR IRIDIKRON TO BE A RAID BOSS CUZ HE FUCKING PARRIES IN THE DUNGEON

[gaunt moat]

it still makes no sense that vyranoth changed side just cause fyrakk killed some rando night elf.

[vestal wren]

Legion had banger questing zones with a lot of fan service
Legion had the surramar area and story line, rly insane
Legion had 13 dungeons
Legion had a huge amount of secret findings stuff

[keen spruce]

Also Vyranoth is just a Jaina surrogate you can't change my mind

can't have a fkin wow expac without a banevolent frost lady

[spice spire]

This went way more in depth than I thought it would

[keen spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/im-upset-sad-serious-tongue-suit-gif-12922351

[vestal wren]

also illidan was rly well integrated in the storyline, and dh was a class that people got excited about
(unlike evokers)

[dark token]

Legion also had cancer locked in rng legendaries

[keen spruce]

evokers were just "here have this lizard"

[crisp pine]

I'm still mad they didn't introduce Shadowhunter as a class

[dark token]

I was using outlaw boots on my sin rogue for 3 tiers

[vestal wren]

yes, early legin was rough

[keen spruce]

DHs were like "fine you guys have been begging us for this since before WoW existed"

[crisp pine]

I wanna hunt Shadows

[fleet pagoda]

can't wait for four years from now when people look back at DF and cite all this as well done and the good ol' days

[vestal wren]

legendary rng, ap grind was not restricted (maw of souls someone?)

[keen spruce]

I mean DF is very goodge

with the design changes

the philosophy changes

[vestal wren]

also EN was the worse balanced raid in wow's history

[keen spruce]

the story is just cheeks

and they cut a raid tier

[gaunt moat]

Also I hate the name Amir'drassil, because Amir is a word in hebrew, but it's also a guy's name, i have a friend called Amir.
it sounds too casual for me now 😂
(But translation, Amir - Top, as in top of tree, could be translated as tall)

[fleet pagoda]

people wanted classic evil guy after the jailer and they're still catchin' shit for it

[vestal wren]

so, why do we fight the council boss in amirdrassil?

i didn't follow the story but this fight esp. stands out as weird

[keen spruce]

THAT SHIT

[gaunt moat]

i literally asked my raid that quesiton yesterday

[keen spruce]

THE FUCKING HAND WAVY BULLSHIT

[crisp pine]

well we broke into their sex dungeon

obv they'd be mad

[spice spire]

[keen spruce]

'THEY ARE TASKED WITH PROTECTING THIS [INSERT SPECIAL WING OF THE TREE NAME] AND WILL ATTACK ANYONE THAT TRIES TO ENTER, FRIEND OR FOE"

[gaunt moat]

the answer i got was:
"Because they protect the dream and we don't belong in the dream"
makes no goddamn sense.

[vestal wren]

go on

[keen spruce]

MOTHER FUCKER

YOUR TREE IS IN FIRE

WE ARE TRYING

TO STOP THEM

FROM BURNING DOWN

YOUR TREE

AND YOU FUKS

ARE GOING TO TURN US INTO DUCKS FOR THE MEMES

[gaunt moat]

@vestal wren I can't with your avatar, it looks like whispyr's. please change

[spice spire]

They’re twinsies

[gaunt moat]

literally the same

[vestal wren]

[keen spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/theyre-exactly-the-same-neil-degrasse-tyson-startalk-they-are-very-similar-they-are-alike-gif-21987439

[quiet oar]

https://tenor.com/view/theyre-the-same-picture-the-office-pam-the-office-us-gif-20757621

[vestal wren]

i could just make it black and white again

[gaunt moat]

Change into something more manly. like a cute animal.

[vestal wren]

bing in any cartoon style + color

will be "the same"

[gaunt moat]

i was waiting for that

[spice spire]

[vestal wren]

alright

black and white

feels so deseturated

https://tenor.com/view/art-color-logo-gif-17057426

[spice spire]

I see no difference

[royal lantern]

"rough" is a nice way too say it

legion was 1 of the worst expansions for like, 60% of its runtime

you legit could not even play a different SPEC in your class lmao

[gaunt moat]

that's a bad thing? i loved that

[royal lantern]

[vestal wren]

back to color

[spice spire]

OTPs

[gaunt moat]

OTPs unite

[vestal wren]

legion and bfa

ended up the best xpacs

for people who would always want to play assassination

and never thing about anything else

[spice spire]

And I missed them both

[gaunt moat]

It also helped that my spec was the best one

[spice spire]

Punching the air rn

[royal lantern]

????

huh?

[vestal wren]

not for m+ ofc

but for raiding

[royal lantern]

even in raid lol

[spice spire]

I still hear of Zulu sub

[vestal wren]

not sure what you mean with huh

even with zul

you ended up only playing sub on zul

the one tier sub was good was ToS

and 33% of rogues played sin in that tier

sin was still rly good

[royal lantern]

nah but legion had its fair share of sub time aswell

like, ToS was 100% a sub tier

[gaunt moat]

There was one boss in legion sub was good, and that was that naga boss.
My guild made me play sub for it, until i couldn't take it anymore and switched back to sin and did better.

[vestal wren]

yes, and still 1/3 of the palyers remained on assassination

[royal lantern]

thats a weird af argument there man

[vestal wren]

i think play rate is for rogue quite telling

of whats strong

e.g. you saw it this tier

essentially all rogue logs ended up beeing assassinaiton early on

[gaunt moat]

Maybe they just liked hanging in #assassination more

[vestal wren]

and only after nerfs adjsuted to spread more

haha maybe

[royal lantern]

fuu

pls

dont be like this

just for once

when you know why and how stuff happend

[spice spire]

What the

[royal lantern]

[vestal wren]

i am not following

[royal lantern]

its not just "assa strong, others bad, after nerfs people swapped"

[vestal wren]

well the rason people switch atm is because it got nerfed multiple times

not because people suddenly like other specs

[royal lantern]

its "all 3 strong, early tier killtimers+externals made assa better then the others, changes happend, killtimers changed aswell, now sub is the #1"

[quiet oar]

Idk

Sin got overnerfed

And people tried sub anyways for Smolderon

[vestal wren]

i mean, maybe i am completely off

[subtle tundra]

pretty sure both outlaw and sub will get nerfed soon

[vestal wren]

but i would not expect sub play rate to go up at all

[royal lantern]

nah, even without the changes people would have started too play sub

[gaunt moat]

the shitty part is sin takes a hit in m+ too.

[subtle tundra]

so it will be ok

[vestal wren]

if assassination was still week 1 state

[royal lantern]

cus like

yeha

[quiet oar]

Idk tryan

[royal lantern]

some fights this tier REALLY favor sub

+killtimers on many bosses now fuck assa hard

[quiet oar]

Like Fyrakk

[gaunt moat]

just cause we do big dps with amp phases, we get punished for m+

[quiet oar]

would still be a sin boss

without nerfs

[earnest remnant]

one fight

[quiet oar]

and Tindral would be more split

between sin and sub

[subtle tundra]

its also weird how like no fights benefit outlaw yet its a top tier spec

goes to say how good they are

😼

[royal lantern]

one raccon

[vestal wren]

i mean, maybe my perspective is wrong

[royal lantern]

we had this a couple hours ago

outlaw grows in strenght with the amount of items with many words in them avaible that they can abuse

[vestal wren]

but i don't think sin without any of the nerfs that took place would see a drop in play rate as noticable as it does now

[quiet oar]

Nah tryan copes

[royal lantern]

ofc not lol

[vestal wren]

my assumption would be that the big majority would still be on sin

[royal lantern]

the changes where somewhat heavy handed anyway

cus like

im STILL confused how they only changed assa out of the 3 specs

[vestal wren]

sub was the least palyed spec in the game

[royal lantern]

when it was widely known that all 3 are/where frking insane lol

[vestal wren]

so you can't rly nerf sub

for outlaw, not sure

[quiet oar]

Idk outlaw wasnt played that much

because bosses didnt favor it

[gaunt moat]

Let's just admit what we all know.
Sin is not allowed to be top DPS

[quiet oar]

its really good in M+

but i think the targetcap safes it from any nerfs for m+

[spice spire]

We got some doomers in rn

[vestal wren]

week one statistics

from wowhead

[royal lantern]

outlaw players and coping on targetcaps

name a more iconic duo

since BfA, every single patch

[vestal wren]

outlaw and sin ended up beeing similar

[royal lantern]

[quiet oar]

Idk why would you want to nerf outlaw

[vestal wren]

in terms of play rate

[quiet oar]

Its not like they can now magically do more dmg

[gaunt moat]

Fuu please, i still think it's whispyr typing.

[vestal wren]

lol

[spice spire]

Different color names

[gaunt moat]

Maybe he got demoted you never know

[spice spire]

Even im not that colorblind

[royal lantern]

fuu is focused and is trying to be as reasonable as possible

whisp would have called me a dumbass 3x allready

[vestal wren]

haha

btw. i rly like

how you can now look at population size on wowhead

[gaunt moat]

me?

[vestal wren]

oh yes sure

[gaunt moat]

https://tenor.com/view/bunny-too-cute-adorable-head-pat-cute-gif-17246426

[vestal wren]

when was the first sin nerf

week 2 or 3?

[quiet oar]

After RWF

[vestal wren]

also when was the 2nd one

[rocky ruin]

5 Dec was the first

[quiet oar]

2 weeks ago?

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/bnuuy-bunny-shitpost-rabbit-mm-yees-bnuuy-gif-7970488282837678817

[rocky ruin]

and two 2 after i think the second

[vestal wren]

well nvm give me 5 minutes

🤓 mode activated

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/judge-judy-time-time-is-wasting-clock-watch-gif-10363038

[gaunt moat]

Guys, why are they called fingers if they don't fing?

[wind dune]

I dont like how sins not allowed to be top dps in raid but the other 2 specs can do raid just as well and are just way better m+ specs, like honestly whats assas niche now? just execute? xd

"big st damage" but sub does it better. except for the last 30% of a boss

[spice spire]

Burst

[gaunt moat]

Sin's niche now is a mediocrely big Kingsbane.

[wind dune]

same thing as sub?

xd

[spice spire]

Just don’t fuck up your final ticks

[gaunt moat]

Do you think sin will be all about kingbane in next expansion too?

[royal lantern]

i hope not

they really made kingsbane so fucking core, that it feels just cringe now

kingsbane doing dmg? sure

the entire spec beeing kingsbane? jesus christ stop

[gaunt moat]

How does sin even play until you reach kingsbane if you're leveling

[proven jasper]

you bleed and go make a sandwich i guess

[royal lantern]

eh, leveling is w/e anyway

[spice spire]

Lol no

One of those is a burst spec

The other has burst

[mild dove]

do we shiv outside kb with arterial precision on tyr week in m+?

[royal lantern]

90% of specs dont work during lvling

[gaunt moat]

Considering the new mini-trees are just built on top of current ones
I feel like it's not likely we'll see big changes to current trees
especially after we just underwent a rework.

But I hope we do become something more than just kingsbane. it was fun when it was strong.
But now it kinda lost its charm.

[royal lantern]

for me it lost its charm in week 2 allready

[crisp pine]

If you guys keep complaining they're gonna put kingsbane on a 1:30 CD and change nothing else

[spice surge]

Calling sub not a burst spec is kinda cope when 90% of its damage is done during dance, and like 65% of it during flag/blades

[vestal wren]

from wowhead artciles (week 2 compressed)

[crisp pine]

I'll have to sepsis Kingsbane then
Is that what you want?

[royal lantern]

no? where the fuck did anyone say that

i just want the dmg to be a bit more spread out

[past forum]

is it the kb "minigame" ppl are tired of? or just being a 1min burst class?

[crisp pine]

I was actually doing what some people refer to as joking

[royal lantern]

cus rn we basicaly have 2 specs that do the same, aka "burst during cd and 0 outside of it really"

aka sub and assa

[wind dune]

yea i couldnt respond i was honeslty dumbfounded. Sub literally is all just a burst spec. Same as sin but sin has MUCH lower lows now and higher highs

[royal lantern]

which is weird, 1 will always be a good chunk better by default that way

[spice surge]

it doesnt really have higher highs

[wind dune]

Not much yea

[gaunt moat]

I can't be tired of the minigame i helped create 🐰
But yes, the 1 minute, and then feeling dead in the water.

[wind dune]

Just a bit assa's nich is just the spec that gets nerfed imo because its the one people flock to for raid prog, The spec that loses the least doing mechanics

niche*

[gaunt moat]

when kb was really strong that made sense.
but now that it's weaker, you feel like KB is a catchup that struggles to catch up.

[past forum]

it would certainly be nice if the tree was balanced around optional damage profiles. like kb is good on fights where 1min st burst is important but otherwise you can flatten out your profile

[royal lantern]

all 3 lose a shitton for not having uptime wdym

why do people STILL bring up uptime

[keen spruce]

this is only

[wind dune]

yes but sin can dot and lose less dont be dumb lol

[royal lantern]

you are a melee dps, no uptime is horrible no matter what

[keen spruce]

technically true

[royal lantern]

^

[wind dune]

its such a minute argument tho

[keen spruce]

like being shot in the shin is technically better

[past forum]

oh no, the dratnos ass take is remanifesting

[keen spruce]

than being shot in the head

[spice surge]

Sin only loses 85% of their damage but the other specs lose 90%

[keen spruce]

other way around but ye

[royal lantern]

ye

[vestal wren]

okay, think this is better

[crisp pine]

Me popping KB and stepping away from the boss for 20 seconds

[vestal wren]

^play rate form each spec

[crisp pine]

it's still ticking tho

[slate crown]

NGL I like both sections of the rotation. I like the mechanical flow of the burst window. I like the juggling of the downtime.

[spice surge]

Sry i made a whopsie and reversed them

[royal lantern]

i love how we had for YEARS yellow names saying "yeha assa is not losing dmg from downtimes!!!! the dots still do dmg!!!"

put your dots on an enemy and walk away and watch that INSANE downtime dmg

[keen spruce]

you made me join a kpop discord to get that sticker

[spice surge]

Thats not on me my dude

[vestal wren]

is interessting, as you see sin just winning players up till week 3, and only after that its starting to lose some players

[keen spruce]

i mean the growth is very normal

u see RWF playing it

[broken ibex]

and Outlaw players are loyal 😄

[keen spruce]

u see all WCL playing it

everyone starts playing it

[royal lantern]

^

[dark token]

Those delusional week 1 outlaws

[keen spruce]

then nerf, then some lag time with people still playing it while we see how big nerf is

[dark token]

Everyone was fotm af over outlaw sims

[keen spruce]

then people stop playing it

then nerf again

yaddayadda

[gaunt moat]

alright raid time. wish me luck on smoldy

[dark token]

No shot people are tired of the most engaging and fun rotation sin has had for 10 years?

[vestal wren]

looking at player count

[storm forum]

Good luck notter

[vestal wren]

week 4 and 5 had a rise in actual rogue players

week 6 / 7 log numbers did decrease

[broken ibex]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vestal wren]

would be interessting to compare the overall amount of logs

[wind dune]

Fuu you always bring up playercount for rogue just curious when subs the strongest is it always represented in the numbers or is it just because subs not as popular no matter the case.

[vestal wren]

to see if its a natural decline

[nocturne torrent]

was hoping to get another look at logs. Plz and ty! (mostly volc as its straightforward and probably the easiest for me to look at) https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QqFApxXmv2Gn1YbP#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=18

[vestal wren]

of if people switch to other specs

[royal lantern]

funfact: you can even out the dmg spread better and STILL have the gameplay

🙂

[vestal wren]

it is

[dark token]

Burst dmg is the most fun and the best dmg profile in the game

[vestal wren]

you can look at s1 play rates, sub had the highest numbers

[dark token]

Be glad we are burstt

[vestal wren]

burst damage is the best