assassination

[storm belfry]

I believe in you

You just become so juiced from the balls

[oak tangle]

ye, i'm far more familiar with the chi-ji rotation so im sure i'd be fine

[spice spire]

Mood

[gusty mirage]

I’m interested

Wait what

[storm belfry]

[viscid spear]

Proceed

[sudden canyon]

Do all rogues play mw on the side or is it just a coincidence

[storm belfry]

I don’t

[storm belfry]

[viscid spear]

I play a Mage/Priest/DH

[vale shore]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz / Dark: http://tiny.cc/xdu1vz

[frigid pilot]

damn

ppl said it would take forever to get stones maxed out

i did it in like 3 hrs lel

[echo cargo]

right? lol

[viscid spear]

You mean the 5 minutes it took to buy the Gemdust from the AH and have a guildie make you 6 of the Unstable Elementiums?

[frigid pilot]

public orders

[royal lantern]

it only takes long if you are really really REALLY unlucky

[frigid pilot]

and the gemdust i just crushed bunch of non meta ones

[frigid pilot]

ye i was luckyt, crafted the twilight and ice ones first try

xD

[royal lantern]

i managed to drop the "get a shield on dmg taken" gem 5x in a row

slowed it down

[viscid spear]

Well the guildie was on so a bunch of us had him make us some before raid

[royal lantern]

a shitton

[viscid spear]

I had 2/3 Stones I needed by the time I opened every door in the Vault, and when I went to gamble on Stones from the vendor I got my Prophetic after two Mojos

[frigid pilot]

sad cus my other ring is crit mastery socketed 421 from weekly

halls of valor ring

and the other is fire mythic raid ring

[viscid spear]

Mine were a 418 Titanic Signet and a 421 Eggnog

The Annulet murdered the Eggnog in sims

[echo cargo]

is there any way to sim all of your stones @ 424?

[tacit otter]

#tc-research message

[echo cargo]

bless you

[vale shore]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz / Dark: http://tiny.cc/xdu1vz

[glass junco]

Sub https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/azc8N2WgfypV25JzA9Pnum

Assa https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3RounUCRC4SEuqCWimXDnv

[thorn fjord]

https://tenor.com/view/moment-of-silence-pay-respect-rip-rest-in-peace-bow-gif-15963301

[grim jay]

you socketed for sub aswell tho

aside from your head

you didnt socket that at all

[glass junco]

Yeah its a quick sim just to see

i didnt optimize it

but even like this, the difference shouldnt be that high

[violet talon]

It’s a 3k difference without optimizing. Doesn’t seem unreasonable tbh.

[glass junco]

its a 5% difference between the spec that specializes ST and the m+ spec

it shouldnt be like that

[grim jay]

thats literally not how that works

[subtle kiln]

what do 5 minute sims give you?

9 minute is interesting

[grim jay]

reasoning is aswell

[glass junco]

Trying to sim for diurna

[subtle kiln]

run a 5 minute sim. where your cds end up and how long you end up in execute will ultimately decide it

you’re legit in an extended execute on her and you’ll have at least 1 DM

in that phase. possible 2

get a PI and you’re really cooking

[violet talon]

yeah, 9 min is such a bad timing because exsang and DM are just about to come back up

I have the same 418 ilvl and my sim beats both your sub and sin numbers you posted above: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/udEgmSjfQfmPiimFJUXnFA

[subtle kiln]

I have ran sub & assa on our prog. legit neck and neck until execute hits.

[gaunt moat]

Can I get P1 shadowstep/gate/cloak rotation for rasz please?

[ebon notch]

gate > step + step > cloak > step + gate

[gaunt moat]

thank you

[frigid pilot]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uJZGrgVKMLRbL93BeSJSiG sin in shambles

single target spec btw

[grim jay]

this whole st spec n stuff is so meh

[vestal wren]

sub just gets slightly more from the ring

[grim jay]

with optimal design and balance they both be viable and atleast decent to play

so its not x is m+ spec and y is ST spec by default

[subtle kiln]

this is what happens when people get depresso about thier spec

[grim jay]

ye

[subtle kiln]

when sub was bad the 13 of us just hopped a dev actually saw how few were playing it

assa always tags itself as ST specialist. sadly ST this raid very hit or miss and comp dependent

[vestal wren]

while i think assassination needs some buffs

the main issue atm is that the raid design this tier just isn't in fav. of single target

and the spec is mostly good at single target currently

[thorn fjord]

I like cloaking on 4… lines up with CDs and lets you sit on boss

[slow tulip]

hey, does someone have a macro for the spark CC for raz ?

[grim jay]

yeah but that doesnt mean its supposed to be only good at ST

which many implicate with what they write

its just weak design rn

[slow tulip]

the design is pretty much the same since legion tho

so dont hold your breath :/

[gaunt moat]

in legion we had cleave

[vestal wren]

on no

in general, being bad at one specific thing is a negative

[ebon notch]

You can only gate first and fourth if you wanna gate twice

[grim jay]

atleast notter got it tho

😄

[thorn fjord]

I’m not even gating

[viral marlin]

its insane as assa u get 12k free dmg at 410 with ring + cowl + stones + poisons + auto attacks XD

[thorn fjord]

Ring was like a 2.8% increase in sin for me

😦

Way bigger increase on the other specs

[viral marlin]

3 min 2,4m dmg 12k dps as assa :P without doing anything XD

[tacit otter]

im not sure why that would matter to anyone^^

[viral marlin]

cuz its fun

[tacit otter]

fair

[viral marlin]

free dmg :D

cuz its kinda more then some mages do in dungeons XD

arcane*

[grim jay]

weird mages you saw then I guess

😄

[limber lion]

that's a big negative

[viral marlin]

ye i indeed saw some rare mages XD

[grim jay]

arcane is only good if you do content thats roughly for that GS tho

[viral marlin]

3min with subt is 9,7k and 1,7m :O

somehow i expected subt to do more free dmg :D

[subtle kiln]

legit what are you going on about? no idea what you’re trying to say

[viral marlin]

woow light up man

its just fun to know... for me atleast

[subtle kiln]

that clarified it very well

[viral marlin]

but who asked u for ur opinion tho ?

why be negative andy ?

[limber lion]

he's talking about the damage that you do by not pressing any buttons

right click boss and go afk

[subtle kiln]

i’m asking you what you’re actually excited about. not taking a shot at you

[viral marlin]

ah my bad i tought u was being negative

[subtle kiln]

fucking people projecting so much negative vibes when just looking for some clarity.

if you’re enjoying the rng dmg cool

[viral marlin]

but ye forget about it XD

i just like weird stuff like that XD

[spice gull]

Hi everyone, I'm interested in playing assassination coming 10.1. How does the spec feel currently

[opaque relic]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz / Dark: http://tiny.cc/xdu1vz

[viral marlin]

i dunno about 10.1 but personally rn i feel more powerful with assa then with subt

[subtle kiln]

lackluster and button bloated

[tacit otter]

if you have played assa in the last decade, it feels like that (the same)

[storm forum]

I miss Kingsbane, but overall I still like playing it more than sub

[viral marlin]

^

[spice gull]

Oh Kingsbane is gone now?

I thought they added it back in DF

[storm forum]

it's ~6% behind after they changed where it is on the tree

[subtle kiln]

they did. just not the dmg

lol

[spice gull]

Darn I loved that ability

It's 6% behind on ST too?

[storm forum]

you can play it casually, but if you're going mythic probably avoid it

[spice gull]

I've never actually played it at end game

[viral marlin]

imo in 16-19 dungeons i personally do about the same or more with assa then with subt but ye i dunno

[storm forum]

on the plus side, I really enjoy the new talent, Arterial Precision, in M+. It's quite good in the AoE dungeons

[tacit otter]

then it doesnt probably feel old or lame for you when you start doing so

there are many improvements to be made, but i still play assa and 'enjoy' it so ye give it a try why not

[royal lantern]

weeeeell ,except that you gain a bit aoe and lose a shitton of your remaining st dmg for dungeons by taking it

[storm forum]

I like getting full CP when I press shiv okay 😠

[viral marlin]

XD

i would love that when i hit fan of knives

[storm forum]

it happens sometimes

like twice as much as pressing fan and getting 1 CP

[spice gull]

I just like the class fantasy tbh

[viral marlin]

tbf what makes it so FoK gives 2-5 cp ? XD

crits?

[storm forum]

yeah

everytime it crits you get an extra CP

so if ur giga unlucky you can get 1 CP from a full target fan

holy shit i had to retype "unlucky" so many times

[spice gull]

In terms of pure ST is the spec good?

Moreso looking at the upcoming raid fights

[subtle kiln]

wait for tuning

[viral marlin]

i think there is still some time between now and 10.1 so likely to see changes

[spice gull]

Eh I never play fomo and don't care if it's the best. I just don't want it to be so bad that it's never picked in raid

[subtle kiln]

if you enjoy it, play it. if you don’t enjoy it find something you do enjoy.

[viral marlin]

just spec fomo rogue spec

when u queue for raid

then change inside :P

[storm forum]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz / Dark: http://tiny.cc/xdu1vz

[viral marlin]

also its more so about hte player then the class itself

[subtle kiln]

rogue in general isn’t played a lot in raid. good rogues will have a spot on prog. we’re tanky as hell and can usually cheese some mechanics.

[viral marlin]

also it all depends on how great your transmog looks

[storm forum]

we're fine, but sims say even or slightly behind sub, so probably just play sub if you're equally good at it.

[royal lantern]

based and shiv pilled

[storm forum]

you know it

[subtle kiln]

subt happens to be really good on the final boss, which usually matters the most for mythic guilds

[spice gull]

Never played rogue in general tbh

[viral marlin]

just play whatever u feel like for me i started subt cuz is "bis"but i prefer assa and outlaw more

[spice gull]

Just been playing a lot of oc2path recently and really liked the thief protagonist in that game

[storm forum]

if youre just learning just pick whichever you think looks coolest

[viral marlin]

also: do u want to be stealth, doing bleeds and poison, or want to be a pirate?

[thorn fjord]

Pirates are wack

Shit fantasy

[storm forum]

!whispyr

[prisma monolith]

Whispyr's Simulation Spreadsheet: https://tinyurl.com/292m89ev

[thorn fjord]

If I want to be a drunk with Chlamydia I’ll just start hanging out on south beach

[spice gull]

I mean honestly I like the fantasy of all 3 specs

Assassinating and poisoning people, being a ninja and throwing shurikens and being a pirate and shooting pistols

[formal ore]

i dont think pirates fit rogue that much but its a nice fantasy anyway

[vestal wren]

they tried to go away from the pirate fantasy

and more towards the sword fighter one

[viral marlin]

didnt they do it the other way around ?:P

[storm forum]

ur a swashbuckler with a sword and a knife and a gun, it's still very pirate-y

[subtle kiln]

rogue, highwayman, pirate. whatever

[strange python]

Failed heavily imo. Ain't no swordfighter that has half their mechanics revolve around a gun that isn't a pirate

As long as bte, gambadice, and opportunity exist, outlaw is pirate.

[rich vine]

Roll the bones it's more dnd or pirate aspect

[royal lantern]

i mean, it is a swordfighter, but still a rogue

and rogues are using dirty tricks like, you know, pull a hidden pistol mid fight and just shoot

[strange python]

Nah that shits a pirate

[hot goblet]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rck7FGLC6Z1BaD3M#fight=10&view=rankings

Got really excited that I was only just outside the top 100, then realised that i am still only blue parse because only 325 sin rogues have done sennarth >.<

[tawny bloom]

btw how is the interaction with the freezing ice stone for sin? Because realistically we should have a high chance proccing it

[balmy condor]

Wdym the interaction

[tawny bloom]

because it says dealing damage has a chance to proc it. We deal damage quite often and only having 36% uptime is kinda meh

[royal lantern]

mate

[balmy condor]

Well it’s not uncapped :P

[royal lantern]

stuff like that is PPM always

[strange python]

Proc chances are normalized over the course of a minute

[balmy condor]

Yeh

Freezing ice stone is uh… 2.5 ppm?

Maybe?

Might be 3

Idk

Point is it doesn’t just infinity proc

[strange python]

If proc effects were based on how often you deal damage some of the slower casters and arms warriors would have to do insane damage to justify never getting procs

[balmy condor]

They have to do that to avoid things like arcane mage never proccing fucking anything cause they only do like 20 hits over the course of a fight while the rogues are melee’ing 800 times

[tawny bloom]

ye but that still really feel like poop

[balmy condor]

How does it feel like anything

[strange python]

Eh. You just kinda ignore proc effects

[royal lantern]

proc is the same for everyone mate

[strange python]

They just passively give you damage now

[balmy condor]

Do poisons feel good

[strange python]

No

Poisons are part of sin, c'mon

[balmy condor]

I aint talking to you

[strange python]

😦

[storm forum]

Kingsbane feels good

thats a poison

[strange python]

Huh

What's kingsbane

[storm forum]

felt good*

[tawny bloom]

if we dont count amplifying it does feel okayish

[storm forum]

something we had back in legion, it was very cool

[balmy condor]

poisons are basically just freezing ice stone but nature damage with a flat % proc

[royal lantern]

https://www.amazon.de/Kingsbane-Empirium-Trilogy-Band-2/dp/1728206960

[balmy condor]

you'll proc deadly poison 500 times in a fight

but it doesn't really do anything different from freezing ice

[strange python]

Is this warlocks

[royal lantern]

warlocks cant read

[cursive smelt]

@balmy condor hey hi sorry to bother you the ring has become strong for rogue assassination in mono?

[balmy condor]

yes

[cursive smelt]

@balmy condor is your wow head guide still up to date?

[balmy condor]

everything is up to date

if something changes, the pin will change, wowhead probably a couple hours later

[tawny bloom]

also another question, should i play flaring cowl without the ring?

[balmy condor]

yes

[tawny bloom]

okay thank god

[brazen zodiac]

💃

[silk bane]

not sure where to ask this but is there gonna be another tricks podcasts before 10.1 release?

those are always fun!

[balmy condor]

scheduling has been a nightmare

[tacit otter]

soon there will be no podcast because everybody stops playing, sadge

[balmy condor]

also lowkey true lmao

[bitter jolt]

In m+ on a large pull, should we prioritize auto attacks on death mark target to make sure lethal poisons are kept up? Or should we apply deathmark and spend time on rotations across other mobs?

[proven jasper]

Atleast d4 rogue looking promising amiright

[balmy condor]

depends if you're deathmarking it cause it's important or deathmarking it cause you got nothing else to do

if you're deathmarking cause it's important then hit it

[silk bane]

dude after spending 18 hours in q i got to lpay d4 rogue and yeah dude that thing is so fun i wish they could steal some ideas from it and put it in wow

[royal lantern]

like combopoints?

[proven jasper]

Im basically playing sub rogue in d4

Its kinda sick

[bitter jolt]

I guess I’m referring to maximizing overall dmg. If incarnate is down, I usually spend a lot of time in the start of the pull spreading rupture and garrote. But Im wondering if I should continue doing that if I deathmarked one of them

[balmy condor]

for overall damage just spread the dots

[silk bane]

lmfao based. but seriously tho, the mobility, the implementation of all the blades its all so cool and fun

[bitter jolt]

So is the duplicated lethal poisons worth letting drop in favor of spreading dots

[balmy condor]

probably

[bitter jolt]

Kk thanks

[nimble tartan]

just started playin some feral and it feels like a fast fun good sin rogue highly recommend <3

[balmy condor]

what do I play if I want a slow fun good sin rogue

[nimble tartan]

the single target feral build is slow <3

[subtle kiln]

arms

ret ain’t bad either

[proven jasper]

unholy dk

10 min cd

is that slow enough

minus the fun part i guess

[storm belfry]

Idk feral just isn’t fun to me

[silk bane]

ferals just sitting there like....

[royal lantern]

no transmog

🤢

[vale shore]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz / Dark: http://tiny.cc/xdu1vz

[autumn frost]

!faq

[balmy condor]

[storm belfry]

Well I got the glowy form

So I look cool in and out but yeah

[cursive smelt]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mmsLqyXhtFV33yWhzcrZZg why ring eranog is not the best @balmy condor ? 🤔

[balmy condor]

cause it's 408

[cursive smelt]

415 melandrus is better ?

[balmy condor]

that's what the sim is saying yes

[cursive smelt]

oh okay thanks

[dark token]

honestly surprised signet is that good for assa

i guess its cause vers suck as a stat

[daring willow]

@balmy condor Seems most ranking/discussion vids on new tier set is putting sin set around B-A tier. You agree with that or think it's weaker?

[balmy condor]

idk

I have no idea how strong the other sets are

but design wise it's dogshit

[dark token]

b-a tier lmao

its dog tier

low numbers unfun design

[daring willow]

Yeah, I felt the same as well unfortunately...

Don't understand the 4-set design choice

[dark token]

outlaw on the other hand is prob A or S tier

i would put sin D, sub C, outlaw S

[daring willow]

Feel like most outlaw mains weren't thrilled about theirs either. or they still just salty from earlier nerfs?

[dark token]

wdym

its giga damage

[storm belfry]

Low numbers?

[dark token]

and cool design of prio funnel

[proven jasper]

if it works with blade flurry thats fucked

[dark token]

yes it does

thats why its giga

[proven jasper]

wow

[dark token]

heres top terros parse atm
2pc: 3% dmg
4pc: ~750k based on this log, so ~3.3% dps

6.3% is solidly meh

and doesnt feel cool to play

aka

d tier

outlaw for comparison is something like 12% from raw dmg proc and then 7% agi on top

and has cool prio target funnel

[storm belfry]

I thought the discussion was about the new tier

Not current

[silk bane]

no it doesnt not. so far from PTR testing : it doesnt funnel. it doesnt include BTE damage. and the big damage youre seeing on PTR from the dot is because its doing 600% more damage than intended. outlaw tier set is quite litearlly 5% aura buff and a 7% agi buff

while outlaw tier set is better than sin and sub since it doenst actiely make the specs playstyle worse, its still dogshit

[strange python]

Surely we get patch notes this week

Buffs and a new tier set right

[subtle kiln]

[rigid tartan]

We’re prolly lucky if we get any changes. I feel like we need to be bottom on dps to get buffs while getting nerfs whenever we found a niche where we’re best at (kingsbane exec was best execute until arms buffs?)

[strange python]

We are bottom

[rigid tartan]

Well bossdam is still good but yeah not even our niche anymore

[strange python]

Mediocre boss dam is an underwhelming niche when you could be a FDK and have top boss dam and gigantic AoE with the same build.

Frost is getting a 3% nerf for being better than sin was when it got a 10% nerf for being good at just ST

[rigid tartan]

I just want the execute/bossdam niche spot cuz we’re best at it back. A buff class with hp shout being better at execute than us feels wrong

[subtle kiln]

warrior, arms specifically, has always been the execute spec

[rigid tartan]

But they also bring shout and fill raidbuff. Arms would just make more sense if they do same or higher bossdam

[subtle kiln]

you bring debuffs and mechanic cheese. shrug

grass is always greener. fix the damn spec gameplay

[strange python]

Single target spec gameplay is fine, though id prefer buffs to rupture and envenom, and nerfs to garrote

[subtle kiln]

nah it’s garbage. same basic shit since cata.

[strange python]

Cleave gameplay is also fine, just tuned like dogshit

[subtle kiln]

button bloat for no reason

[strange python]

Being around since then doesn't make it bad gameplay. Sin ST gameplay is entirely fine.

It's AoE and tuning where sin is piss

[subtle kiln]

i’d prefer fun instead of fine

[strange python]

Fun is subjective

[subtle kiln]

ofc

[strange python]

Sins single target rotation is very often cited as one of the smoother and better designed rotations. Shit, it's the inspiration for half the specs in the game

The criticism is that our AoE makes no sense and our tuning is awful

[subtle kiln]

smooth? 👌🏻

[balmy condor]

Is that why people complained that it was too slow for the last 8 years and now complain that it’s just push everything on cooldown and envenom spam?

[strange python]

Idk if I think that's accurate. It was nearly GCD locked in sepulcher and nyalotha

Slow isn't necessarily bad. If envenom was tuned properly and energy pooling/management was relevant, it makes the rotation more interesting

[balmy condor]

2 patches in as many expansions that were defined by a warping of the spec through borrowed power

Well designed

[strange python]

I mean

Again, it's a tuning issue.

The speed can be interesting if the right dials are turned the right ways

[balmy condor]

Yes

[strange python]

I know we're all real negative atm, but I really don't recall complaints about sins fundamental rotation and spec design like you do. I actually remember people complaining about tuning being told off because the spec was still fun

[balmy condor]

But you said “sins single target rotation is very often cited as one of the smoother and better designed rotations”

Not “sins single target rotation could be very often cited as one of the smoother and better designed rotations if they changed it to make it better designed”

[strange python]

Interesting and smoothness/feelgoodness are different imo

It's impossible to tell but I'm pretty sure people were very happy with sin in DF until the nerfs

Outside of AoE and cleave

[gaunt moat]

You mean before even the exsang nerf?

[strange python]

I recall the main complaints being that sin would be great if not for exsang

I could be misremembering

[gaunt moat]

It's going to be interesting to see sin performance in next raid, if it really does have more ST fights.

[balmy condor]

I mean sin’s single target is good enough, but it’s been dumbed down considerably over the years

[strange python]

Sure. Im just saying I don't think sin needs some crazy ground up rework like people think

In single target you really only need to turn a few dials

The main pain point for the spec is that the aoe rotation is just awful

[balmy condor]

Maintain rupture
Maintain garrote
Press shiv on cooldown
Dm+vanish every 2 min
Dump with envenom

That’s like

99% of the spec right there

[gaunt moat]

Sin's not really "complicated" as much as it's just management of debuffs.
i don't think it was ever really complicated. just a lot of work.

Sometimes considerably more work than other specs.

[balmy condor]

Dm was at least somewhat interesting in beta when you had to plan around casting it first and then your bleeds

[strange python]

Most specs in the game can be simplified to relatively similar degrees

[balmy condor]

But people thought it was jank so now it’s just vendetta against

Push button do more damage

[gaunt moat]

I don't mind that personally. I don't think the complexity of the game should necessarily come from pressing your buttons.
there's a lot going on around you. so it's fine if abilities are mostly "just use on CD".

[strange python]

Idk, I guess we disagree. I think if garrote was nerfed, the envenom buff was buffed and shortened, and rupture was buffed, sin would be compelling in ST.

Shit, sub has more buttons to push but it's certainly not that complicated

[thin ingot]

sub is literally press your stuff in cd

[strange python]

And even though sub is strong, it's pretty fucking terrible to play

[gaunt moat]

Everytime i try to learn sub i start to cry and curl into a ball. but maybe i'm just allergic to it.

[balmy condor]

I think sub is a boring spec too

[thin ingot]

it is in aoe, it has some appeal in raids imo

[balmy condor]

I want to be able to think about my rotation and have a knowledge/skill ceiling for what to press

[strange python]

Sub has gotten dumber and simpler with each iteration since like, wod

[balmy condor]

And neither sub nor sin do that

[thin ingot]

like you can optimize fights quite a bit by holding cds

[balmy condor]

Because they’re both playable by chimps on a keyboard smashing all the buttons in a row

[strange python]

What fights can you optimize by holding CDs as sub lol

[thin ingot]

razz

you can hold for adds, or shield

[strange python]

The only potential argument is raz shield and that's debatable when you run grieftorch

And the CDs are so short you're only holding for a few seconds max

[thin ingot]

or second intermission adds from big tornado dudes

[strange python]

That's also just gt

[thin ingot]

when they spawn the mini versions of themselves

[strange python]

Oh that's just dance sectech

[thin ingot]

yeah

coldblood mostly

[earnest remnant]

big true, im said chimp

[thin ingot]

coldblood is your only cd as sub xD

[strange python]

Idk, sub is overwhelmingly just mashing all your CDs right now

Tea and rupture being the only thing to manage is uhhh

[daring willow]

and you just macro into secret technique. super fun

[thin ingot]

yeah

pmuch

but hey thats the game

tell me one spec that doesnt play like that

[strange python]

Arcane genuinely has windows to play skillfully and minmax your CD timings

[balmy condor]

The min-max of sub is hitting gloomblade when you’re not supposed to

[earnest remnant]

wdym dude. the pure amount of brain power i need for the knowledge of 3 different ways i can enter dance on single target on rasz

[strange python]

I think spriest and boomie also have some genuine skill expression

[balmy condor]

[strange python]

Though idk how impactful pulsar and starlord management are now compared to last expac

[balmy condor]

Remember when dance meant something m

I remember

[earnest remnant]

pressed enter by accident xd

[strange python]

Dance has been less impactful with each sub iteration for the last four years :/

[earnest remnant]

not true

it became more impactful this expansion compared to last

check mate

[thin ingot]

i really liked sub in WoD

[balmy condor]

This one’s pretty impactful I think, it just also kinda blows

[strange python]

Did it though?

[earnest remnant]

yes

[strange python]

Dance in s3/s4 was mostly unimpactful because you kept getting dance with the tier set and double dance

Now it's unimpactful because gloomblade

[earnest remnant]

well dance is what makes gloomblade do more dmg now

checkmate again

[strange python]

Lol

[earnest remnant]

mostly just memeing

sub playstyle sucks

get it gone

[strange python]

It's strong so it won't get changed 🙂

Only spriest gets reworked for being bad playstyle while strong

I'm just waiting for Ion's: "we'd rather all rogues just play outlaw" post

[oak sky]

Lingering shadow sin 4p

[thin ingot]

im still waiting for exsang rework or removal

checking everyday

[oak sky]

Maybe next century

[strange python]

I'm an exsang enjoyer

[thin ingot]

yeah but they said they are going to do something with it

[strange python]

Sure

They also said they're gonna do more frequent tuning when specs underperform

They also said anduin was definitely not the originally planned final boss and that sepulcher was always planned to be the final raid tier

Blizzard lies a lot

[thin ingot]

everyones a doomer nowadays lol

[strange python]

I've always been a doomer

[silk bane]

okay so like I didnt play sub in WoD or BFA and people keep saying oh BFA sub was best Sub playstyle but all ive' gotten about it so far from fuu is that BFA sub just had hard hitting evis but also was omega degen since u had to put nightblade on everything if you wanted to AOE idk.

[strange python]

Who said BFA sub was best sub?

[silk bane]

almost eveyone

[strange python]

Where

[silk bane]

Stealthi, fuu, push

[strange python]

Hmm

Sub was a dumpster spec in bfa

[thin ingot]

legion sub i would say was the hardest hitting of all imo

[earnest remnant]

8.3 sub was banger playstyle wise

tuning wise

[thin ingot]

wod was crisp

[earnest remnant]

hot garbage

[hexed flicker]

What you don't enjoy your aoe being gated behind a 45 second cd?

[silk bane]

but what made it banger though? why was it so good?

[strange python]

8.3 sub was so bad that I don't even know what the playstyle was other than NB evis being big

[earnest remnant]

the way you weaved nightblades for fat AF eviscerates

[thin ingot]

what patch was 8.3?

[strange python]

I don't even think IC is a good cooldown. DoT specs will always struggle with AoE above two targets unless they have some sort of an ability to consume or explode their DoTs

[strange python]

Nya

[silk bane]

damn imagnie evis doing damage, imagine setting up for it. why couldnt they make it so that those were the options for sub. either go monkey brain gb spam with lingering or do higher skill ceiling big evis playstyle

[earnest remnant]

you basically just abused nights vengeance as much as possible

[thin ingot]

i really enjoyed Tomb of Sargeras rogue

[silk bane]

instead we get gb spam with big rupture or gb spam with more gb spam builds

[strange python]

I remember making my sub corruption set, playing sub on wrathion, and being told I'd be sat if I played it on any other boss for the rest of farm.

[earnest remnant]

i played whatever spec i felt like playing

i aint bricking no kills by playing either specs

[strange python]

My guild was dogshit then, we genuinely needed the damage

[hexed flicker]

I'm not exactly qualified to comment but I've found assassination in general feels like it's lagging behind of late. I've been considering trying outlaw out to see if it pulls better numbers.

[strange python]

Outlaws single target is very underwhelming atm, but single target isn't exactly common this raid

[burnt star]

Assa is still your goto for prog kill btw

[strange python]

Depends on fight

Sub is better for most

[hexed flicker]

Oh that's good to know because I took a look at the rotation and it felt absurd. Maybe I should just stick with assassination since I know it well enough by now.

[strange python]

But outlaw is...not putting down damage in meaningful places

A lot of the damage outlaw does in vault is to targets that don't matter

[hexed flicker]

I didn't even consider Sub, apparently it's even more complicated?

[burnt star]

I mean in most prog u stay a long time in execute range. Wich is also when u start losing people

[strange python]

No sub is very very very straight forward

[daring willow]

Having started sub and moving to sin, I can tell you sub is much simpler

So much so it's honestly kinda boring between dance/sectech CDs

Which is why I'm trying sin lol

Even the burst windows are easy though, because you just press everything

[hexed flicker]

I'm probably just overreacting to be honest. I keep seeing Assassination at the bottom of dps rankings and wonder why I'm playing it.

It feels bad to play a class knowing good play in it nets less damage than moderate play in the fotm.

[strange python]

Sin is better than the logs make it look.

This tier has an unprecedented amount of degenerate padding, which sin cant take advantage of

But sin is still quite weak and needs attention that it isn't getting

[hexed flicker]

How does it fare vs sub?

[strange python]

Depends on the fight and your job on that fight

In pure single target, the two are very close. Sin can pull a bit ahead with PI, but this isn't something you'll reliably get

The issue is that sub can also do very strong AoE and sin cannot

So if you're in boss duty on brood or dathea, both are fine. But if you're doing adds, sin is trolling.

Which is the cause for a lot of the pessimism here - sin lacking any noticeable strengths over other specs

[subtle kiln]

it is. i don’t enjoy it

[hexed flicker]

So you think on a fight like Raz I should look at Sub to switch between?

[strange python]

Sub is honestly just better than sin for raz

The intermissions are the only difficult spot at this point, and even with sacrificing some single target damage to deal with those adds, subs cooldowns line up better with raz shields

The shields are relatively short duration too, so even though deathmark may be a bigger impact cooldown, a lot of its damage is likely going to apply after the shield has been broken

Sin is absolutely a fine spec to kill raz, but it's hard to make the case that it's better than sub at all

[hexed flicker]

Maybe I'll take a look at Sub then. The adds are definitely our roadblock at the moment.

And unlike Outlaw I don't need a new weapon as far as I can tell.

The Assassination stats on my crafted ones probably aren't optimal but I think I could get by.

[shut owl]

unless you have an absurd amount of haste you're probably fine

[hexed flicker]

14% definitely not

[strange python]

Wait did foreverguy really tell max that sub and sin sets aren't hatecrimes

[gray crest]

the sub set is only a hate crime if the rotten becomes the set up to run

[strange python]

Further making sub do damage outside of dance is a hate crime imo

[craggy oak]

Hate crime is reserved only for sets like uh's, sins is bad and uninspired, but is the best set in game next to uh's🤣

[gray crest]

I'm a firm believer that sub should go back to being a 1m burst class

I do like this current play style only because you combo stuff together

[subtle kiln]

45 second burst class

get rid of cdr

[subtle kiln]

trusting someone that wants to one trick outlaw.

[strange python]

Blame max for not asking a sin or sub players

Not that anyone cares about tier lists but that was hilarious to see

[subtle kiln]

nah. no point.

just random pulls of whoever they see on

[oak sky]

No lol

He definitely said people dislike the sin set

[subtle kiln]

dislike not strong enough

[oak sky]

Better than just saying its fine

[silk bane]

^^ no he litearlly went there and said outlaw set looks great! sub is good people dont like sin. gave sin a C, sub B, outlaw A or S (dont rememebr) but sin should be warcrime and sub should be D

[subtle kiln]

sub is just as shit as assa they both suck

[drifting cosmos]

publish set effects 2 months earlier than launch and by launch 80% of them changed

[subtle kiln]

rogue will get patch notes 1 week before launch

[silk bane]

lowkey happy to see everything they hoped outlaws said would do turned out to be wrong! it doesnt funnel, doesnt take in bte damage so no GSW minmax, its litearlly a flat 5% aura buff + 7% agi buff uptime. like why does he talk about things he doesnt know anything about

[gray crest]

Surely they fix nightstalker and lethality bugs

[spice spire]

[gusty mirage]

you should try warlock

it's a ton of fun

very easy to play too

[gray crest]

I could never be as big of a Chad as blackvneck

[spice spire]

No one can tbh

[subtle kiln]

welcome to the internet

[dense herald]

Yep or shadow. That’s where I’ll be

[twilit hollow]

@gusty mirage this is true, blackvneck is gigachad, i need the carry

[gusty mirage]

farming blue parses

with my shit gear

[unreal bear]

d4 beta was engineered to prevent me from doing literally anything for vault this week

[eager sorrel]

Man, was creeping to see if realz has been around... This made me sad

#assassination message

[balmy condor]

Yeah a post from 3 months ago

Nice

[oak tangle]

so odd, was just discussing that message with a dev friend cause we were talking about community managers for games

[balmy condor]

But why

[oak tangle]

was originally cause i was watchign the satisfactory unreal 5 video, and was thinking how cool it would be to be a community manager, and then just went more into how shit it would be. and just sharing examples of devs not saying anything because it's a lose lose situation to say anything at times

just odd that i was having that discussion and i come check here and someone posting about it

[balmy condor]

Ah

Yeh

[oblique jackal]

why is everyone upset with realz

[balmy condor]

Are they?

[oblique jackal]

seems like it Whisp

[royal lantern]

idk, hating realz is cringe

[balmy condor]

who's hating on realz

[royal lantern]

like, the guy probably cant talk like people think he can

[oblique jackal]

^

i see it quite a bit in the channel. Esp when changes come out and there's nothing about rogue

[oak tangle]

if they make a comment saying they can't talk, that in itself says something. so easier to say nothing

[balmy condor]

I haven't seen realz hate

mostly just "no rogue changes reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee blizzard reeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

[hexed flicker]

Well after doing a bit of soul searching I didn't find sub or outlaw to be that easy to get my head around sadly. I think I will stick with assassination. Thanks for all the feedback.

[jade abyss]

Same here x)

[vestal wren]

people are just upset because of the lack of communication and bugfixes

[oblique jackal]

@vestal wren Maybe he's working so hard at fixing everything atm

[vestal wren]

thats it, for sure

[oblique jackal]

Sorting through coding is prob hard af

esp blizzard coding

[steel ridge]

when he was working real hard during beta, he still talked alot here

[oblique jackal]

I just try to put myself in these Devs shoes

it can't be easy

[steel ridge]

and even sought help here with specific mechanics

And how stuff works and behaves

[oblique jackal]

yeah i remember

[steel ridge]

but thats all gone while some issues are still there. Even tho a lot has been done.

[oblique jackal]

They'll always be issues

[steel ridge]

If we wouldn’t have suffered all those nerfs, nobody would bat an eye

we would still have our niche

[silk bane]

I think having realz around made people feel like we had a friend who was listening to us and woudl think about our feedback. but since hes now kinda gone and we have gotten 0 communication I think people just feel left out and kinda forgotten. so theyre pissed/agitated

[kind talon]

i mean thats the problem tho, dev comes in, gets a bunch of feedback, but theres a small % of people who dm and ping them with vile stuff, they lose motivation to come back, sentiment gets worse towards them and goes on

end of the day its a dude with a job just respect them like a normal human

we have 0 right to be annoyed or angry with a specific person especially when we cant see behind the scenes

[shrewd night]

I think its more down to the fact that we are forcefed some shit. Realz is a cool guy, dont envy his job. But the ulterior messaging from Blizzard since beta has been a steaming heap of doo-doo.

[kind talon]

agree with koffing

shiennar

[shrewd night]

[balmy condor]

shienie wienie

[kind talon]

banana

!banana

[shrewd night]

Ill banjokazooie you decaf

[kind talon]

please dont

[jade abyss]

Maybe realz dont chat here anymore bcs he knows we are always complain (what is okay) but he knows he cant satisfy us bcs he dont decide things be his own alone

[regal sable]

maybe realz is a human being with human emotions and things to do

[jade abyss]

Maybe realz is "Manuel Neuer" (german commercial joke)

[royal lantern]

nah, you just cant talk and answer everything you want unless you are allowed to do so

cant just go "oh yeha, X change is comming" cus they feel like it, if higher ups tell them to not Talk abkut that stuff, you dont

[regal sable]

maybe realz is putting duskwalkers back into the assa tree

[storm onyx]

Baked with Vanish cd, yea, yea?

[jade abyss]

Or in reality is realz whispyr and whispyr is trolling us all the time

[grim jay]

Already had that theory once

My guess was that whispyr is himself while awake and realz comes out when he is sleeping

[jade abyss]

And thats the reason why exsang is still in the game bcs whisp like to see us suffer

[grim jay]

Thats why realz doesnt have much time to spend

[jade abyss]

Dont tell anyone but whispyr is batman

[grim jay]

Bruce Whispyr

[oak sky]

Fuck sin 4p 💯 im not tryna raid on that ahir

Shit

[jade abyss]

[grim jay]

Literally has 0 impact on what you do

[idle socket]

Assa b tier now?

Ufff

[grim jay]

Where

[idle socket]

On subcreation

[grim jay]

Alright

[idle socket]

Maybe i have to learn it

[grim jay]

I mean

I love assassination

And I wouldnt recommend you to learn it in M+ if you are fine with playing the others

[idle socket]

Why ?

Is isnt assa good when raging week ?

[grim jay]

Its fine damagewise most of the time, but it has some really awkward situations in AoE rn and is a lot more effort for less result

[idle socket]

Hm ok

Assa seems difficult aswell right ?

[grim jay]

Raging isnt something you are really used for. You can do that as sub aswell in the same way, but most other classes generally do it better

[idle socket]

Assa can mass sooth no?

[grim jay]

Its fine on ST as long as you get used to puzzlebox and get your opener straight.

[grim jay]

Has a CD and the talent is dead

[idle socket]

Ah ok

[oak sky]

😴

[idle socket]

Thanks for your advice

[grim jay]

You get that with most sets

[grim jay]

YW

[royal lantern]

you never take that talent because its a small aoe gain and demolishes your remaining st dmg

if you really NEED an aoe soothe, evoker

[idle socket]

Ok

I saw that one assa rogue on raider io

He is fkin blastin

3.4K aswell

[misty kernel]

he is trash bro

[idle socket]

Lol you the one

[grim jay]

I mean you can do it if you really want to, but you sacrifice stuff to be able to do something mediocre that others do better

[idle socket]

Can u give me an example?

[royal lantern]

accepting flaws is the first step to improvment

[misty kernel]

@grim jay i wouldnt call it mediocre tbh assa falls behind in few keys coz cannot burst smallies (Temple-Cos-SBG) other keys assa is rly rly close to sub

[idle socket]

Above outlaw?

[royal lantern]

its simply: you can play assa, but you can also just play sub and 2button yourself to more dmg in all situations with no downsides

[grim jay]

As tyran said, your ST is in the gutter, your soothe has a long-ish CD, you dont have it where you would want it for ST bcs its a dmg amp and you could just inv a druid or evoker

[grim jay]

Didnt mean sin as a whole, just the AoE sooth

[misty kernel]

if u play it rly good u compete with outlaw in 4 keys and win in academy

[misty kernel]

ahhh then ya that make sense

but it doesnt change the fact that assa actually need buffs according to rai logs and i cant wait for those buffs

[grim jay]

Its still a good bit more effort for the same or less of a result tho

[idle socket]

I mean sub is r1 spec or? I dont want to play sub Because 2 button is just to boring

[misty kernel]

100000% True more effort for less KEKW

[idle socket]

I tried some assa at the dummies and my Brain explode

Idk outlaw feels so much easier

[misty kernel]

its what davyn said bro

assa u do way more effort for same or less damage

thats why people dont play it

[idle socket]

Ok

Maybe i will try it anyways Because it looks Funny

Is there a good yt Guide ?

Not only written?

[balmy condor]

no one puts effort into youtube guides

too much effort for not enough payoff

super quickly goes out of date

it's a mess

[royal lantern]

i mean, if you dont push high keys, its w/e, play what you want there

+20keys dont suddenly become impossible because you play assa

[grim jay]

And the lack of real AoE finisher "rules" is kinda hard to get used to tbh. If they would just take away the instant damage of CT and give an option to make env cleave on ct targets or smth you would atleast have a decent gameplan for AoE

[idle socket]

I do like 22 keys

2900 io

[grim jay]

Make guides in shorts

[royal lantern]

yeha, thats when the falloff will start to happen tbh

[balmy condor]

I've been thinking about ways to make video content digestibly and sustainable

but it's not an easy task

[misty kernel]

Monkaaaaa Shake

wish any day (Class Tuning) #ASSABUFFS

[royal lantern]

10sec videos with the openers and a"ability used" timeline?

idk

[balmy condor]

nah that shit's useless

[grim jay]

Its really fascinating how people actually find shorts more appealing for info when you need like 9 shorts. Couldve read a guide in that time

[balmy condor]

if people don't read the image, they won't watch a 10 second video that just tells them what the image does

[misty kernel]

🤣

[oak tangle]

probably to explain interactions more so than rotations.
how exsang works as a base (why you use it when you do) or how pandemic works etc

[misty kernel]

bro todayyyyyyyyy had a 28 AV deplete coz 2 people failed jump 😦 that was so heart breaking

[balmy condor]

yeh something like that, but dunno

[grim jay]

Rip. Had multiple keys like that

[idle socket]

You have to do a assa high key guide and ppl will get into this spec

[oak tangle]

XD

[balmy condor]

yeah

for sure

it's just a guide that people are missing

[misty kernel]

biggest copuim ever

[oak tangle]

CT would be more hype if more people hyped it

[balmy condor]

one guide to change the entire community perception that has existed on the spec since legion

[misty kernel]

bro even if assa best spec people wont play it 😄

[balmy condor]

ye

[grim jay]

CT would be more hype if it lost its Instant damage and had a followup that makes env cleave on up to X targets close to you with CT dot

[oak tangle]

whilst this is true, there is also community perception that sways biases

[grim jay]

@balmy condor just make a challenge where you do a cosplay for every sin highkey recording you get

[silk bane]

based. whispyr OF when?

[misty kernel]

[grim jay]

Community perception improves if the class is better and they see people crapping on others

[balmy condor]

for every assassination key above 28 I add another pair of cat ears

[misty kernel]

assa rogues should do OF coz Unique Content KEKW

@balmy condor u mean 28 or above ? 😛

[balmy condor]

nah

29+

[misty kernel]

bro

there is only 1 29

timed

wich is SBG

[balmy condor]

well, get on it then

looks like you got work to do

[misty kernel]

u need to get the key HAHAHA

[kind talon]

just hit up fotmrogue

[oak tangle]

no i agree, my comment was tongue in cheek in a way. But inevitably popularity of something will tend towards a group idea

[kind talon]

my friend daps

he does +30s in his sleep

[misty kernel]

@balmy condor check whiper

[balmy condor]

real, I've seen him sleep

[silk bane]

@misty kernel why u here typing man? get to gaming... we need whispyr cat ears more than sin changes at this point

[grim jay]

Whispyr with cat ears is the highkey reward blizzard doesnt want to give us

[silk bane]

whispyr cat ears is whats gonna make realz come back to this discord

just believe

[oak tangle]

just waiting here for the bliz press conference for 10.2 when they buff rogues but everyone abandoned it "Don't you guys have rogues?"

[misty kernel]

@silk bane bro am fasting for 6 hours no cigs no water no food M+ without those affex = GG

[grim jay]

I'd be laughing because I never did and never will abandon rogue

[misty kernel]

:KEKL:

[grim jay]

Never specced to outlaw for any content except treasures aswell

Because true rogue

[oak tangle]

fuck outlaw

[idle socket]

Are you streaming? Would like to See assa highleys

[misty kernel]

sent u dm

[regal sable]

zerocool is chad

the assa we deserve

[silk bane]

yeah I love his streams. found him through biz but now I watch him instead. hes funny af too

[misty kernel]

😂

[idle socket]

I will take a sniff

[misty kernel]

if blizzard just care about assa abit but sadge

[silk bane]

idk man looking at what theyre doing with sub's gameplay im worried theyre somehow gonna make sni worse if they change it

[grim jay]

What exactly do you mean

[idle socket]

Shadowdance + shurikenwstorm + secret tech = 300k dps 3 button

[oak tangle]

tier set just sways where the power of talents goes, imo sub needs some reason to adjust their talents a bit. it might be an ass way to do it, but i think that's what they are trying

[grim jay]

It most likely wont even change much

Same as with most of the sets

Except if they tailor certain talents even more towards something

Or buff existing ones

[oak tangle]

the problem is the rotten is just dogshit, it gives you extra cps, on top of extra cp's so you're ending up over capping on cp's

[silk bane]

sub's msatery icnreases your finishers damage. the entire spec used to revolve around very hard hitting evis's. u had a funnel niche. the spec felt fun because you had things that hit hard and that mattered. then now in season 1 DF youre at a point where essentially your basic builder does almost as much damage as your finisher, and with next tiers tierst sub's about to even lean more of its power into their builders than even now.

like we did a sim earlier today. turns out sub basically gains like 200 dps funneling to a prio target vs just single targeting them.

[oak tangle]

i don't quite see what you mean regarding generators vs finishers tbh

[silk bane]

gloomblade hits as hard as evis

[rigid tartan]

in my opinion as long as we could do same dps with Indiscriminate Carnage (Garrote+Rupture) + Crimson Tempest + Shiv + Fan of knives its fine

but we can't

[oak tangle]

not the case for me

gloom is strong, but it's not that strong

[rigid tartan]

also we would need some higher form of aoe sustained dps in our single target talents. Like Sub Raz build still has black powder and we need something along the same powerlevel

[silk bane]

specially during blades, gb does usually same or more damage than evis o average.

[grim jay]

I agree that builders should be less impactful compared to spenders rn, but I dont see how the tier amplifies the difference in favor of builders. The 2p buffs basically everything with a focus on spenders with the 4p

[silk bane]

high lingering gb stacks during blades can do up to 120k per gb cast (including lingering chance to proc WM and blades damage from it) whereas evis rarely does that much

[rigid tartan]

Sub versus Assa should in my opinion be a style of gameplay choice and not a one of the two is better. To me as an oldschool gamer since vanilla launch it feels like different classes. Assa is the one that reminds me the most of my class choice more than some 18 years ago or so

[royal lantern]

symbols dmg buff everytime for the 100% gloomblade dmg buff after dance is over i gues?

[grim jay]

My GB hits less than my evis aswell. Wish blades did smth with finishers tho

[royal lantern]

replaces your finishers with gloomblade

[silk bane]

if a lot of your damage comes from your dance windows then you dont do much damage outside of dance. so u dont cre if you have uptime on symbols outside of dance. but now, you get the 100% uptime on symbols, which means its technically a dps gain to turn from having mos tof your damage come from dance to talents that further buffs symbols, and having that affect all of your damage. so you end up dropping talents on the left side of tree that further increase evis damage (finality and shadowed finishers) for talents on left side that increase gb damage outside of dance further more.

[grim jay]

Wdym ? Symbols in the current style already does more for GB if thats what you mean 😁

[royal lantern]

i mean that ylu will have symbols for every single lingering shadows with the 2set next patch

idk

was just a gues

[grim jay]

But you dont use symbols in dance most of the time rn

That shifts dmg towards GB

[misty kernel]

vs

[silk bane]

imagine a really high lignering stack at 100% gb damage. if gb crits fro 25k, 25k is lingering, 12.5k is blades and thats 65.k. if it procs wm thats 65 * 2 = 130k. at 15% chance, on average then youre doing 65 k + 0.15 * 65k - almost 75k. so in high lingering stacks your gb is doing on average 75k per hit. thats an evis crit.

[grim jay]

My evis crit is way higher than 75k

[oak tangle]

maybe i'm playing wrong idk, but yeah my evis is significantly outperforming gloom

[grim jay]

We kinda turning sin channel into sub tho

[oak tangle]

gloom max crit was 36k, evis max crit was 105

[silk bane]

what does this even mean? think about the power of a single talent. if symbols is up 33% of the fight, but now its up 100% of the fight, then every tlaent on that side of the tree that buffs evis is now suddenly 66% stronger (specially if we flatten the damage curve of the spec by further reducing dance uptime)

so ur talents are now 66% stronger than they were, what talents are u gnna run now?

[storm onyx]

Sub playerbase and devs are devided on multiple issues within themselves over the years
. Ppl complain dmg being compressed in CD for unforgiveness
. Ppl complain dmg being flat, CDs don’t matter.
. Ppl complain Builder dmg high / low
. Ppl complain Main attack dmg high / low
. Ppl argue Main attack is the Builder, spender is just what you choose to do with cps depending on situation.
. Ppl argue builder is just for Cp, main attack is the spender…
and so on

[silk bane]

idk man im 420 and my evis without crit without finality hits for like 70k at best without critting

[storm onyx]

The flatter the dmg becomes, the soulless spec becomes

[silk bane]

36k gb + 36k lingering + 18k blades = 90k + 15% chance of wm proc makes that on average 103.5 basically the smae as your highest evis

if it does wm proc though its litearlly stronger than evis

[oak tangle]

why would you include blades in that

[drifting cloud]

#subtlety

[silk bane]

because blades dmaage is litearlly 50% of your builders ddamage

[royal lantern]

eh, flat curve is fine

the Problem is that Outlaw allready does that

and sub is SUPPOSED to be the "burst window spec"

[balmy condor]

real

and true

[oak tangle]

to be fair, we should be in sub channel, but at the same time, what is there to talk about sin wise

[balmy condor]

nothing

so the channel stays empty

[grim jay]

Did someone say realz

[silk bane]

based

[storm onyx]

True, tho i miss WoD iteration

[clever sapphire]

What if we made IC into a choice node. One is the active effect as it is RN, the other would be a passive where rupture and garrote spread to one additional target. That way we can choose a cleave node for dungeons with smaller pulls, or a 45 sec aoe bursty one 🤔

[pastel onyx]

passive one would be superior

[balmy condor]

[pastel onyx]

[grim jay]

[hollow dirge]

considering that even the ic does not make our aoe super bursty or big, I don't see why it's even a capstone. "this capstone gives you an ability to more reliably do mediocre aoe"

[storm onyx]

wtb passive or at tier 2-3 in tree or something thats has such a big impact on current game content design

[pastel onyx]

dworry getting dmg amp after the dm duration will fix everything

[grim jay]

Envenom cleave on up to X CT targets, saying it again

[storm onyx]

Bet they would kill PB for it and argue now we have a controllable aoe finisher and we end up same spot or worse

[oak tangle]

i'd just take a 0 cd garrote

[grim jay]

Dunno why they should

Since it would still only proc on the Initial env

[storm onyx]

Garrote having cd still is yea, strange

Forgot when it was introduced

mainly for pvp i recon

[clever sapphire]

I mean they want dmg outside of cooldowns, so the passive 2 target dot spreading would do just that

[grim jay]

They could literally just lower IC CD together with actual improvements tho

[clever sapphire]

They would argue that thatway you always have 8 rupture/garrots up and thats just broken so nerf assa xD

[grim jay]

I wonder, because it prolly wouldnt even be broken 😁

[spice spire]

[grim jay]

[balmy condor]

thanks for sharing

[grim jay]

@balmy condor you love the idea of a lower CD on IC right ? Right ?

[balmy condor]

who are you talking to exactly

[oak tangle]

even my adhd takes and responses aren't this out of context

[balmy condor]

it feels like he's responding to someone

[storm onyx]

Issue is if they have intension of fixes etc;
For example when they made KB/DtB choice node, they knew KB build would lose about 5% dmg and they chose to make the change as is. they could very well release a tuned up KB and keep the 1 min burst build viable.
these kind of stuff and likes break copium

[oak tangle]

do you think they knew, or that they didn't realise

[balmy condor]

they knew

[storm onyx]

What degree of incompetence you attribute to them . . .

[hollow dirge]

what are the chances they did not realise

[oak tangle]

i give it..... what's it off the mark by? 30%?

[grim jay]

@balmy condor I kinda didnt invest much time into that change, if they left KB where it was and wouldve made KB/AP the choicenode together with the other changes, wouldve KB + DTB been possible and strong ?

One of my weak moments

[balmy condor]

yes

if they just added AP onto KB as a choice node instead of moving KB

we would be simming for 118k right now

before the gems

so I guess 120k

[grim jay]

Dunno why they didnt do that

Sounds good to me

[balmy condor]

yeah beats me

seems balanced

whats even better is that it would be the only build we would play

so all the people crying about build diversity

would still get fucked

[grim jay]

I mean, even if they nerfed something for it, it wouldve been a good one

Kinda fun

[hollow dirge]

move IC to MA and remove MA, put KB in it's place as capstone and make it proc from bleeds alone , so dtb does not make it insanely op. IC as capstone is crap anyway, as you had comparable overall in dungeons even without it

[junior aurora]

dtb kb does not sound ok in pvp lol

[vestal wren]

diffrence between being op and not op

[oak tangle]

the one thing above else that i do not understand. is why the talents on the left side start off as aoe, and swap to ST and the talents on right start as ST and swap to aoe

[balmy condor]

that's okay, mini-game mode has their own balancing just nerf kingsbane by 50% or whatever during it and no one cares

[grim jay]

@balmy condor wouldnt it be enough to actually cap the applications affecting KB?

[balmy condor]

wouldn't what be enough to cap what

[hollow dirge]

there's no cap

[oak tangle]

KB max stacks from poisons i presume

[junior aurora]

how much damage kb gets from poison apps i guess

[balmy condor]

KB doesn't have a cap

[junior aurora]

theyre saying to cap it

[balmy condor]

I mean sure

but that seems like an easy cop-out

and the interaction regardless would still be too strong

[clever sapphire]

Make it so even if you have 4 poisons applied, it only takes application from 2. That way there is no broken interaction

[balmy condor]

you would have to cap it to a level that makes picking them both together interesting enough, but it has to hit the cap or else it's worthless, and the cap also can't be low enough to get hit naturally without dtb, which means the cap is on kingsbane but only exists because a different talent forces it to

that's so jank

[junior aurora]

its also probably more burst than blizzard wants on sin rogue

[balmy condor]

yeh probably

[flint tusk]

i'm not sure the game engine is capable of doing that.

[junior aurora]

like imagine a damage amp phase during execute

[balmy condor]

it totally is what

[grim jay]

I would prolly rather give KB an internal CD for when a poison triggers the dmg buff or bind the dmg buff to just trigger on the first-applied lethal poison instead of capping max stacks

[hollow dirge]

that's not even a hard thing to limit

[grim jay]

So KB has virtually no interaction with DTB

[balmy condor]

and like yeah you could give KB an ICD for that

[flint tusk]

really?
Like a debuff on a target deciding that what poisons an attacker is applying should be considered and not?

I mean if it was a buff on you then yeh. maybe i'm out of touch on debuff logic

[balmy condor]

but that's unclear to the player, and also just blocks a very clear interaction that should in theory exist

[flint tusk]

just seems detached to me

[hollow dirge]

making kb not interract with dtb is not an issue, as they just don't want us to play double st capstones 😄

[balmy condor]

you just add an ICD that can't trigger the stack more than twice in X time why are we deciding what debuff is applying

[grim jay]

You would then still play double ST capstone

[balmy condor]

you're overcomplicating the hell out of it

[strange python]

remove dtb

[oak tangle]

do poisons applied by dtb have a seperate spell id?

[balmy condor]

honestly remove dtb is the cleanest solution I think

[flint tusk]

But doesn't that in directly put a hard cap on it in general for even not DTB use?

[balmy condor]

how would you reach that hard cap without dtb

[flint tusk]

even though i like the idea of DTB i can get behind this. it seems to add so many variables

[balmy condor]

like

how

[flint tusk]

ahh right i see what you're getting at now

[balmy condor]

idk

there's 3 solutions

[oak tangle]

I dislike dtb purely because it doesn't change anything

[hollow dirge]

changes your envenom number in details 😄

[flint tusk]

you get to press apply poisons an extra two times per hour! 🤪

[clever sapphire]

Make poisonbomb into a choice node. The other choice is a kingsbane proc for 5 seconds

[oak tangle]

like i get it has interactions, but no appreciable difference for us to play around

[junior aurora]

procs are disgusting

[shrewd night]

KB proc, are you insane

[balmy condor]

1. the interaction is allowed, and you have to tune them together forever, which is a mess
2. the interaction has to be limited, which is really hard to clarify to players and super unintuitive
3. you block them from existing at the same time and have to balance them to be competitive

or the blizzard solution, you block them from existing at the same time but then make KB so weak that there's no point in picking it in the first place, and then ignore it for tuning all patch

[clever sapphire]

Maybe, but blizzard gonna have to do something atleast thatway about kingsbane if its broken so i can play it again

Or its removed

[balmy condor]

you see, you might think random KB procs are the most insane shit you've read in this channel, but I assure you there is a full suite of chefs in here cooking some dastardly devious dishes

that isn't even the dumbest thing I've read this week

[shrewd night]

Yeah, jeez, you are going to get great value out of a 5 second proc of a spell that scales with time PEPE

[balmy condor]

the amount of cooking that happens in assassination could end world hunger

[oak tangle]

i think the reason for such cookededness is this. people start with rational takes. and nothing changes, and there is an association that those takes are now old and you need new ones, so you keep cooking

[white orchid]

Yea bc everyone would be dead

[hollow dirge]

problem is devs don't eat these dishes. 3rd world food aint on their menu

[balmy condor]

for sure but at some point you gotta taste the soup and realize it's gone bad right

[clever sapphire]

I just want assa to be as broken as people assume it to be in ST

[shrewd night]

The soup has grown fur and three legs, but assa keeps on cooking it.

[flint tusk]

I just hope what ever "rework" i know full copium they're working on doesn't change the core concept to much. just gameplay work am i wrong?

[balmy condor]

brother the soup has developed a consciousness and is enrolled in school

I've seen chatgpt cook less

[oak tangle]

how long till it does an IT degree and gets employed to do class balancing

[junior aurora]

i mean looking at some classes

it may already have

[grim jay]

I think people just realized that nothing will change based on their ideas anyways, so they might aswell live their dreams full of dopamine in our channel

[flint tusk]

Is this was GPT4 is? the result of assassination cookfest

[grim jay]

[royal lantern]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_stew

[junior aurora]

man that picture is rancid

[oak tangle]

i don't mean to crush your copium, but if there was a rework coming we'd have been told it was coming rather than radio silence

[balmy condor]

they wouldn't dare use assa conversations to train GPT4, they don't use the conversations of animals for data on a human chat model

[shrewd night]

Looks better than whatever this channel is prepping

[hollow dirge]

is this you , poison bomb, is this really you?

[flint tusk]

oh i know but there will be plans on a piece of paper somewhere just not being worked on.

[grim jay]

The pic already looks stupidly disgusting

[junior aurora]

if i had to choose between kb procs and eating that catch me rolling the dice harder than outlaw

[royal lantern]

reminder that a stew like that was the norm for 99% of the middle ages, and is still used in many countrys in the world to this day

[grim jay]

That piece of paper still has leftover ideas from bfa

[oak tangle]

all we can hope for is a tier set rework and maybe a spell change

[hollow dirge]

I mean, we did not use antibiotics until very late in human history, why even start then 😄

[grim jay]

I can totally see that its a thing from ancient times

[royal lantern]

why does it say "echoing blades" written in a green crayon

[junior aurora]

i mean i dont see the tier making it to live 100% as is

[shrewd night]

Brother

I have news for you

[balmy condor]

the cooking continues

[near valley]

Thought this channel was used to comfort each other in these trying times

[clever sapphire]

They will nerf it because assa too op on heroic week 😋

[junior aurora]

ill huff the copium if it gets even an iota of change ill be vindicated

[balmy condor]

yeh it ain't much comfort seeing people repost wowhead articles going "another week with no assa tuning blizzard forgot us"

[oak tangle]

i mean as long as the raid fights stay like they are on heroic for mythic, it'll be a fine tier for sin tbh

[hollow dirge]

i want us to stay bad until hc is done, so we're buffed week 3 😄

[shrewd night]

Sssh whispyr, echo chamber = support group

[junior aurora]

Yeah rogue was in a shit spot in vault

slightly ahead

[royal lantern]

eh

[junior aurora]

never want to be slightly on top

[grim jay]

There even is a picture behind the notes

[royal lantern]

not really

[balmy condor]

wowhead took 3 screenshots from warcraftlogs overall that shows we're bad actually so really if you think about it I can't play this spec anymore

[royal lantern]

saying "rogue bad spot for vault" is slightly weird

[shrewd night]

https://tenor.com/view/nerd-emoji-nerd-emoji-avalon-play-avalon-gif-24241051

[royal lantern]

is assa dissapointing rn and needs help? yes

but rogue was and still is good for progress and was used by many raidteams for that

[flint tusk]

even then it's still not bad!

sin needing a hand or not

[royal lantern]

like, sub can semi-carry raza intermission

[flint tusk]

I think people have forgotten how bad BAD used to be xD