assassination

[gusty mirage]

stop it

[mint ruin]

I think ideally it would be a viable option without being necessary

[drifting cloud]

im talking for myself

[honest vessel]

Hmmmge

[gusty mirage]

exsang also leads to degenerate gameplay loops

that isn't intuitive to anyone who isn't paying attention to theorycrafting

if you're a new player and you pick up exsang

[honest vessel]

Sorry that may have been ruder than I intended it

[gusty mirage]

how will you ever know that it snapshots haste?

[honest vessel]

It absolutely has that flaw

[tacit oar]

[gusty mirage]

nah I gotchu friend

didn't come off that rude, it's a valid point

[drifting cloud]

what haste are you snapshotting? 😛

[gusty mirage]

the ones up my ass

HOW ABOUT THAT RYLER

[drifting cloud]

I see

[gusty mirage]

HUH?

[honest vessel]

c:

[drifting cloud]

well it does seem like a viable option

[gusty mirage]

it's like a vast void

sucks up everyone around it

[drifting cloud]

the dumbest was that stupid trinket in bfa, haste circle on the floor

[mint ruin]

That's my main gripe with Feral and to a much lesser extent sin. Snapshotting is such an unintuitive mechanic

[drifting cloud]

thank god it was never bis

[gusty mirage]

galecaller's

I saw galecaller's boon being used with exsang in 8.3

[wary ice]

i think the point is that feral at least attempts to communicate the snapshot

[gusty mirage]

and I was like nope

don't care not playing it

[mint ruin]

Considering like 50% of the spec revolves around snapshotting bleeds it would be hard not to

[gusty mirage]

I'm also very stubborn, so a lot of my exsang hate is probably unfounded

[thorn fjord]

I’m with you on the 5% thing

[wary ice]

honestly the burst in 8.3 exsanjg was pog

[mint ruin]

so you're an average WoW class discord member

[gusty mirage]

but tbh anything that's like a couple percent is worth it to me if it makes me enjoy the game more

sure like 2-3% is a lot

but if I hate it, it aint worth it to me

[hardy dagger]

do we play shadow dance in m+?

[tacit oar]

Nah

[drifting cloud]

no, the class tree barely changes in m+

[wooden sentinel]

Guys, how can we explain that a DK tank stuff PVE 301 can be 1,6s killed by a 301 ilevel DH pvp ? How is it not broken?

[tacit oar]

You have some examples in pins

[mint ruin]

this 1000%. as long as you're not pushing the upper echelons of gameplay and you know how to play your build it's usually not a problem. I got KSM on Shadow Priest without ever once taking their AoE talent

[hardy dagger]

https://gyazo.com/f8bbea728065b06934695487612c7f77

[balmy condor]

its prepatch who gives a fuck

[hardy dagger]

trying this atm kinda good in big aoe

[wooden sentinel]

A friend that got one shotted and argued with me that's why i was wondering lol

[mint ruin]

The answer to about 99% of questions rn

[balmy condor]

tell him to stop being stupid

[mint ruin]

My friend asked me to teach him how to play shadow. My response was "Log off your priest and don't log back on til covenants and leggos are gone"

[balmy condor]

honestly the fact that legos and covenants exist in prepatch is a problem

but the bigger problem is the community taking prepatch even 10% seriously

[echo geyser]

bro i had the fattest titanforged galecallers

[mint ruin]

it's THE problem

[echo geyser]

i was blasting with exsang

[mint ruin]

oh wait u rite

[balmy condor]

like anyone who wants to take prepatch seriously

needs to wake up

[echo geyser]

it was insane on mother in uldir

[balmy condor]

and slap themselves

[echo geyser]

there was winds and u could pop galecallers and it gave u movement speed to negate the pushback

i love exsang

[drifting cloud]

didnt uldir have dogshit trinkets

so we used 2x m+ ?

maybe im forgetting one

[echo geyser]

titanforge was a thing so anything was possible

i think i had harlans loaded dice and galecaller

[subtle tundra]

spyglass was finna nice aswell

but thats cause i was a pleb and didnt like galecaller

[timid cloud]

I think you were with like 99% of the people who played it.

I just played Dice & Vita

Galecallers Boon was cringe.

[echo geyser]

that wasnt uldir

[timid cloud]

Dungeon sucked dick too.

We were talking about 8.3, no?

[subtle tundra]

uldir is 8.0

[echo geyser]

no clue i just member playing galecaller in uldir

[timid cloud]

If it was Uldir….

[echo geyser]

with exsang

[timid cloud]

I think I had Dice & Idk

[echo geyser]

[timid cloud]

I’d have to check M’uh logs.

[echo geyser]

oh did ppl play exsang after uldir too?

[timid cloud]

Yeah. In NYA

[echo geyser]

haste tier

[timid cloud]

Yeah.

Ugh, I hate trying to check BFA logs.

[drifting cloud]

all my logs have the darkmoon trinket

guess that took a while to get nerfed

[timid cloud]

The Fathoms one, right?

[tender folio]

Glad Garrote was buffed through Shrouded since I hate that Necro bleed spike

[weak horizon]

How big are these buffs? Will they change the dtb supremacy?

[signal pier]

assa now best spec right?

[spice spire]

Always has been

[oak pulsar]

Always will be

[spice spire]

The pins are coming

[copper hazel]

fire in the pins

[signal pier]

he is writing

[echo geyser]

just watch his stream instead

[signal pier]

oh he is streaming lets goooooo

[timid cloud]

Duskwalker…fixed?

[signal pier]

yoo whispyr lookin kinda good

[static wadi]

Btw do we go for Poison bomb at lvl 70 for m+? It seems kinda juicy

[limber lion]

Probs not

[obtuse robin]

our boy is loosing it

[static wadi]

I mean we go for blindside and Zoldyck then? Poison bomb seemd like a no brainer

[limber lion]

Why does it seem like a no brainer?

You rarely press Envenom in AoE and if you never press it, you never proc PB

[static wadi]

I mean if you already spread Garrot and rupter + CT you can just go for Envoms

[limber lion]

We'll likely play IC + Kingsbane, especially with the most recent buffs to Zoldy and KB

[static wadi]

Wait how do we get IC and Kingsbane. What do we skip for it?

[grizzled jay]

Whats the hip cool new build

[limber lion]

Huh?

[static wadi]

we only get 5 Points right?

[limber lion]

Open up the talents and just go for both

You have 30 points in total

[limber lion]

Whispyr will post pins shortly.

[subtle tundra]

The one I played before the sims (I'm cool like that)

[static wadi]

Im going from the m+ Talents from the Wowhead Guide. Which is not enough to get kingsbane at 70

[low girder]

assuming he doesn't go mad

[signal pier]

the new flying daggers build lookin great

[subtle tundra]

You ofc change some things out

[static wadi]

Yeah thats what i meant with what talents do we drop

i think we only need 2 points then

[limber lion]

Drop the bad ones

Idk what you're looking at

[subtle tundra]

Wait for whispyr to finish typing

He will have the build there

[limber lion]

Yeh

[somber fractal]

so are we single target pumpers yet? my feelscraft still says no

[limber lion]

All new builds inc

[subtle tundra]

We are

[limber lion]

Your feelcraft couldn't be more wrong.

[rich vine]

[weak plover]

Fan of knives stonks 📈

[tacit oar]

[limber lion]

Routing through FD just for that one extra point is kinda funny, but definitely cringe at the same time lol

[timid cloud]

That feels so awful.

Since it’s ST too.

[limber lion]

Nah its aight

We're happy

[timid cloud]

[static wadi]

Still not used to Bone spikes tbh

[timid cloud]

One day we won’t have to use any AOE to do well in ST

[static wadi]

They just feel wierd

[tacit oar]

Bone spike is cool

[timid cloud]

CT…Hidden Blades…

What’s next?

[limber lion]

Hidden blades?

[somber fractal]

do we use CT in single target tho?

[limber lion]

[mint ruin]

poor tree design right there. All 4 talents in that row should be single point and then then SF and Doomblades should be 2 points

[timid cloud]

Talking about that one time from AGES ago.

[limber lion]

No

[timid cloud]

The FOK rotation that lasted for like a week.

[tacit oar]

[mint ruin]

What the FOK

[timid cloud]

No, I was referring to using AOE stuff in ST for a gain. CT happens to be AOE…

[limber lion]

You know the reply function is pretty useful buddy

Give it a shot

[timid cloud]

It was some dank stuff in Legion.

[limber lion]

Also

[timid cloud]

But then I have to hit extra buttons. I have too many buttons on Sin Rogue as it is….now I need one for replies???

[limber lion]

We never used Hidden Blades in ST

[mint ruin]

I'm sad I didn't join til BfA. Legion looks like it was a neat xpac

[limber lion]

Hidden Blades was introduced in bfa lol

Just fyi

[timid cloud]

Wasn’t it a leggo in Legion?

[limber lion]

It was

[timid cloud]

Might be remembering wrong.

[mint ruin]

I didn't start playing sin until 2 days ago so

[timid cloud]

[limber lion]

But yeah

Even now we might be taking Flying Daggers

But doesn't mean we'll ever press FoK in ST anyways

[timid cloud]

Oh heavens no.

[limber lion]

Just use that node to get an extra point instead of putting 2 points in VV.

[timid cloud]

I can’t even imagine a future like that.

[limber lion]

Just efficient point usage, makes sense to me

[timid cloud]

Using FOK in ST.

[limber lion]

One dead talent to get to another better talent that outsims taking 2 VV

[timid cloud]

I like VV it just needs to be stronger.

Which kinda sucks.

[signal pier]

we got exsang and flying daggers, lets go!!!!!!!

[timid cloud]

What’s under that again? Maim, Mangle?

[limber lion]

Yes

This pin about to have 5 disclaimers

[timid cloud]

True.

Margin of error is gonna be said 30 times.

Minimum.

I just have my copypasta ready for when it drops.

[shadow breach]

Does the spec still suck at m+ though?

[uncut echo]

I'm a fan of these buffs

[honest vessel]

no

c:

[uncut echo]

I just woke up, henlo gamers

[honest vessel]

[balmy condor]

Updated Level 70 Builds
This is including the November 11th buff

Another big block of text type pin, please read them before asking questions!

TLDR:
Kingsbane and DTB are within margin of error here. Play what you'd like
Kingsbane and IC is the clear winner in m+

Poisons should always be Amplifying if talented > Deadly > Instant. All Poisons do the same instant damage (except wound which does half as much, and should not be considered in PvE). Compare poisons by their added effects (deadly damage over time, amp envenom buff) only

Images 1 and 2: Single Target
Some stuff about these. The most WTF thing you'll notice is flying daggers. That is not a mistake. Taking flying daggers to get to blindside saves us a point avoiding vicious venoms. Putting that point into tiny toxic blade/improved poisons/serrated bone spike is worth it. Talenting into vicious instead is about -1% currently

Image 1 is your Kingsbane build, it's big execute (about 80k in execute versus 69k on an overall fight - including execute), and the burst isn't bad. Not much to say about it. Hold both shivs for it. Because of how strapped we are for points with avoiding vicious and taking stuff like shrouded/sbs which are big, there aren't really any realistic point swaps to do. Improved poison/tiny toxic are the next best.

Image 2 is essentially the same thing but with Dragon Tempered instead of Kingsbane. It's a little faster, but they sim identical overall, but it's less burst and less execute, more sustain.

Image 3: M+
Kingsbane + IC is on the menu in a very strong showing, being about 3-5% ahead of any single capstone setup. The new M+ hierarchy is IC+KB > DTB >= IC > KB.

This build is also really strapped for points, with flying daggers being the only realistic way to get to Kingsbane while also taking Carnage. If you drop exsang (or iron wire, which you shouldn't, but I know you will), do so for venom rush, tiny toxic, or improved poison.

[timid cloud]

Why’re we playing Flying Daggers? @balmy condor (For legal purposes this is a joke.)

[honest vessel]

to skip the 2 point talent

[marble hemlock]

cuz it only costs 1 point

while vicious venoms costs 2

[honest vessel]

asked that question so fast

[limber lion]

He knows this

He's just trolling...

[marble hemlock]

trolls get banned

[timid cloud]

True, just doing a maymay.

[marble hemlock]

just saying

[timid cloud]

[hollow river]

[ember mural]

[limber lion]

+1

[timid cloud]

Godspeed, Gentlemen. It was a pleasure playing Rogue with you.

[uncut echo]

Nice boiling down the poison choice for DTB

[faint harness]

never picking dtb confirmed

[hollow river]

is there no difference between joking and trolling

?

[faint harness]

ST bot gaming. love it whispyr thanks

[timid cloud]

Seli saying trolls get banned but actively wants us to drop KB for SBS.

I saw him say the words!

[uncut echo]

LOL

[faint harness]

practising my 300 button rotation rn

[marble hemlock]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitten-spilling-milk-milk-spilling-gif-25553835

[sturdy merlin]

Ok exsang is still here BUT double step is back in the best talent tree

[hollow river]

[sturdy merlin]

that's a w

[marble hemlock]

nice, that was supposed to be for push

but took forever to post

[timid cloud]

One sec, let me delete mine.

[faint harness]

old man vibes

[timid cloud]

[timid cloud]

True!

[uncut echo]

i'd have taken double step

[zealous marsh]

Co which of the 3 specs is old man spec atm

[faint harness]

sub

[hollow river]

sub lower than sin APM?

[faint harness]

no just easy

and no buttons

[zealous marsh]

Less buttons

[hollow river]

ah yeah

true

[timid cloud]

Wait, so the 4th image is for M+ too, right? Is that just an extra photo?

[zealous marsh]

[timid cloud]

Or am I Blinded & I’m missing something?

[hollow river]

m+ ye

[zealous marsh]

Iron wire

One is with one is without

[balmy condor]

Same pic twice

For emphasis

[timid cloud]

Oh, I see it. But barely.

[timid cloud]

I knew it!!!

[balmy condor]

First didn’t have iron wire

But I didn’t delete it

[timid cloud]

Yeah. It was just really hard to see.

[zealous marsh]

Yeah low resolution

Whispyr did pic with calculator

[timid cloud]

Mobile…cause I’m in my Sin deathbed.

[spice spire]

Y’all finicky Smdh

[spice spire]

If you didn’t know how hard of a simp seli is for sbs, now you know

He just like me tho

[timid cloud]

LOL

[hollow river]

sbs probably one of the best abilities added in all of SL

no cap

[marble hemlock]

i didnt. its about knowing how big of a difference it is, so you can apply that knowledge to the dungeon/situation at hand

[timid cloud]

I think that’s a collective agreement. The most interactive & fun ability.

[marble hemlock]

with a ~3% diffy between sbs vs ss for example, its likely to be better to drop ss on spiteful weeks

[balmy condor]

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

Now he’s going on about spiteful weeks

Muh cp

Sbs good for sure

[spice spire]

You’re mad because he’s based’

[zealous marsh]

I thought padding on ghosts is unethical

[spice spire]

Get real

[balmy condor]

Biased has an i in it

[marble hemlock]

depends on the playstyle of the grp. lots of chainpulling and it'd probably be better to pick sbs, for example

[balmy condor]

Seli is 2cp

[spice spire]

You should love yourself right now

[balmy condor]

Let it go

It’s okay

[marble hemlock]

why do you hate my takes

[spice spire]

[balmy condor]

I don’t hate your takes

[timid cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/low-tier-god-ltg-have-a-nice-day-good-ending-gif-25395445

[balmy condor]

I hate your sbs takes

[marble hemlock]

why

[balmy condor]

Because they’re more copium than sub rogues funneling in 9.1

You think 2cp is going to be the deal breaker on a 3% swing?

[marble hemlock]

fewer restealths and sustaining more than 3 SBS due to delayed death timers is nice.

[balmy condor]

But seli

Assassination is the health bar equalizer

If there’s delayed death timers you didn’t do your job

[hoary night]

whis do we also take flying daggers in prepatch?

[balmy condor]

And also when things die staggered the pack is already over that damage is worthless

Isn’t that what you taught me

[marble hemlock]

yes

[balmy condor]

No

[marble hemlock]

just checking

if you listened

[balmy condor]

At this point you’ve taken both sides of every argument

[marble hemlock]

well yeah

i like to play devils advocate

cause if i dont do it, no one does

and it wouldnt be the first time i (or someone else) has a stupid idea and it turns out to be good

[balmy condor]

It’s true

But like

[marble hemlock]

gotta keep doing stupid things until one of them turns out to be smart

[balmy condor]

2cp for spiteful

Is crazy cope

[marble hemlock]

nah its mostly cuz

[spice spire]

Seli, counterpoint to the stupid things argument

I heard there’s an LBE gain to be found

[balmy condor]

WE GO NECRO PREPATCH?

[marble hemlock]

spiteful sucks for stealth ofc

[balmy condor]

Okay and?

[spice spire]

YES MAN

[marble hemlock]

so SS value likely not as high

[balmy condor]

You’re losing 2cp

It’s 2 combo points seli

[marble hemlock]

and 20% damage

or is that no longer conditional

[balmy condor]

Shrouded garrote damage is passive

[marble hemlock]

it was last time i asked you

[echo cargo]

[balmy condor]

Did you ask me in July?

It’s been passive for a long time

[marble hemlock]

idk when we talked about that thing

anyway

IM JUST SAYING

its not a massive difference

[versed mica]

So uhh whisper um I'm just wondering the very same day buffs were given on if sin is now better than outlaw in st and AOE thank u in advance for ur vast knowledg

[timid cloud]

LOL

[spice spire]

[timid cloud]

The last part got me.

[marble hemlock]

sbs might be 3% less dps but its 30% more fun

[balmy condor]

I'm gonna play maplestory now

[marble hemlock]

[split maple]

[hollow river]

ST yes aoe probably not

We’ll see

[split maple]

wish SBS was in the main rogue tree over ER 😂

[zealous marsh]

[hollow river]

Maplestory at work pog

[balmy condor]

same image

[balmy condor]

we just prayge that the lanes don't break

[zealous marsh]

Higher resolution

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

also it was cold and all my long pants were in the wash but I'm a genius and brought a second sweater, specifically for my legs

[marble hemlock]

you brought a sweater for your legs?

[spice spire]

[hollow river]

Do you get to just sit around and wait for the lanes to break

[zealous marsh]

So if u wear sweater for legs

[spice spire]

Brother for how smart you are, you sure are something sometimes

[zealous marsh]

U must sit like acrobat

[hollow river]

Because that sounds dope

[marble hemlock]

also, i gotta ask... "all my long pants" is how many exactly? ill need a specific number

[balmy condor]

yeah pretty much

[zealous marsh]

=stacks of sbs

I bet

[balmy condor]

I have like 10 pairs of jeans but maybe 7 don't fit me anymore because I'm fat now and my dad stole them from me and the other 3 are in the wash

and I'm not going to wear slacks to work

[zealous marsh]

3 in the wash

So sbs has 3 stacks?

[marble hemlock]

so youre thiccer than your dad?

[balmy condor]

I am

he's actually kinda unhealthy atm

very stressed

lost a lot of weight

[marble hemlock]

no kidding

anyway

past 2am already

i should go bedge

[balmy condor]

he used to be 180cm 85kg

and now he's almost 70kg

its uh

[marble hemlock]

oww

[balmy condor]

not good

[echo geyser]

have a nice rest

[marble hemlock]

thanks sir

i pinged you on my disc for cat pics

dunno if you saw

[split maple]

my dad last a ton of weight post stroke. hes better now, back to an almost healthy weight, takes time. hopefully yours recovers too.

lost* words.

[balmy condor]

yeah I'm sure he'll be okay, but he works a long time and skips lunch and then a small dinner and he's got a lot of personal issues happening atm

it'll clear up

[velvet ridge]

give it to me straight, how we looking for release, are we getting a raid spot if im in a top 100 guild

[split maple]

what is it with old dads and never wanting to call in sick??? Even post-stroke my dad was on the grind. ridic.

[balmy condor]

yeah it's called atrophic

[echo geyser]

saw it now thanks

[balmy condor]

my dad retired and then decided to do a part time thing just to stay entertained and now he's working 60 hours over 6 days a week

I mean I feel bad for him but he's incapable of saying no

literally just fucked himself over

[echo geyser]

[balmy condor]

unlucky

[split maple]

[echo geyser]

[split maple]

what even is the point of retirement if you work more than before you retired ?? 😦

[balmy condor]

iidk

have to ask him

[viscid spear]

My dad shipped us out to the other side of the country 21 years ago and disappeared.

[echo geyser]

some ppl like to work, or rather cant stop

[balmy condor]

based

[timid cloud]

I can relate.

I go away for 5 minutes, Seli/Whispyr going back & forth about SBS, now I come back to sweater for legs talk?

[viscid spear]

No idea what he's been up to since

[balmy condor]

It’s got faux fur

[timid cloud]

Mmmm, I'm so COMFY

[viscid spear]

I need it to be a lot colder first

[zealous marsh]

I even tried to combine the topics at one point but they didn’t caught the bait

[balmy condor]

Take my two balls and combine them in your mouth

[zealous marsh]

Tempting

[honest vessel]

hah

[zealous marsh]

Like two tempered blades

[teal bloom]

With kingsbane, do you go shiv->envenom->kingsbane to get the envenom buff rolling?

[spice spire]

Bro?

[balmy condor]

Yes

[teal bloom]

And you pretty much only shiv during kingsbane? Because you can't use a shiv when you go to 2 charges if you want both of the charges to be available during kingbane

[shadow breach]

Sin any decent in m+ now or still garbo compared to outlaw?

[balmy condor]

It’s good

[balmy condor]

You hold both for kingsbane yes

[shadow breach]

Should crit/mastery or crit vers be better for aoe?

[misty holly]

The fact that we don't take the poison buffing talents with DTB feels like a huge balance mistake. What is the point of those nodes if they aren't good enough even when doubling our poison output with a capstone.

[balmy condor]

Crit mast

[misty holly]

And no SBS in M+ also feels 😦

[surreal nova]

its a bit weird that sbs is in the st trees but not in dslice tree, but im not complaining. one less button to press

[balmy condor]

it's not that sbs is bad

its just that we have better places to put those points

[surreal nova]

yeah i figured

[balmy condor]

taking kingsbane and IC together is actually all your points

[surreal nova]

man these buffs look juicy. looks like ill have to dust off my daggers for progress

[balmy condor]

it's 20 points to open the gate, and then 10 points to finish

and you need 5 points for each capstone

so you would have to drop a capstone to get SBS

and that's just not happening

[surreal nova]

im glad ic is a thing anyway. last sims i saw you didnt take it

[balmy condor]

yeh

the single target loss on IC was a little too big

but kingsbane buffs and zold buffs on top

makes the left side very tasty

and that then covers the single target, and some aoe as well

[versed mica]

I feel like IC should be on a shorter CD

[balmy condor]

You’re on crack

[versed mica]

Yes, and?

[sudden hound]

its already been reduced what

[versed mica]

I'm an outlaw main

[balmy condor]

I’m sorry to hear that

Must be difficult for your family

[faint harness]

make IC a 15 sec CD

[versed mica]

Tfw no outlaw recovery centers in my community

[faint harness]

make it buff bleeds to do 50% more dmg for 15 seconds

rotate

[drifting cloud]

if you put it on global people wont press it

[versed mica]

And make it exanguinate all of the bleeds

[drifting cloud]

unlucky

[faint harness]

exsang should definitely work on aoe

ur already taking that shit anyway

might as well

[versed mica]

Give sin restless blades

[faint harness]

with all these cds it has now?

[balmy condor]

[faint harness]

Brrrr

[balmy condor]

I’m not sure if push is just malding over sin being good spec or actually just unhinged shitposting

And I can’t decide which is funnier

[faint harness]

exsang SHOULD work on aoe

thats not shitposting

[balmy condor]

I agree with that one

[versed mica]

Vanish, deathmark, shiv, IC, KB, Exang, all of it on restless blades

BIG

[faint harness]

the IC one was shitposting cus someone suggested lower cd, sorry

[faint harness]

gz you just made it into outlaw but without rtb

[versed mica]

[subtle kiln]

evoker main now

[balmy condor]

Don’t apologize, I’m having fun

[subtle kiln]

we can only talk about other specs for so long in #subtlety

have to branch out

[versed mica]

SBS puts exanguinate on its target, IC spreads SBS

BIG BIG BIG

[surreal nova]

im sure sub will get some love too soon, then we'll be all down there

[faint harness]

[surreal nova]

^^

[faint harness]

ppl dont play the spec even if its fine, there will be no such thing

[subtle kiln]

if you mean by love not playing like 9.1 sub that ain’t happening

[surreal nova]

wait, im actualkly a bit out of the loop. whats so bad about it?

[faint harness]

dont mind scath

[surreal nova]

aight

[subtle kiln]

no shiny new toys

[surreal nova]

mkay

[subtle kiln]

if you liked it in 9.1 it’s there. if you were hoping for something new or different, kinda out of luck on that one.

[spice spire]

It got “redone” for shadowlands

Big sub propaganda in assassination

[faint harness]

i for one dont mind how it plays, i just dont think there's a compelling reason to play it

[subtle kiln]

for the amount of redos, just rename it old yeller

[spice spire]

[subtle kiln]

send it to the farm

[spice spire]

But yeah I agree push

Two big shiny specs, with one almost untouched feels bad

[subtle kiln]

I want to be excited for a new expansion.

[spice spire]

The funnel dw

You have the funnel

[faint harness]

funneled into the slaughterhouse

[spice spire]

Brother 💀

[subtle kiln]

is it for keg stands?

[surreal nova]

ah yeah i see. a few new things, but passive. and im guessing DM doesnt impact the rotation really? suprised to see you're not taking ER, but i didnt like the interaction between it and st anyway

[spice spire]

Sure

[twin zinc]

kinda new to rogue. what the best leggo for now in M+ in general? thx

[subtle kiln]

outlaw dust

[surreal nova]

sub funnel died in uldir. its rotting corpse is still there

[spice spire]

If you go sin dusk is fine, but for overall you can run Zoldyck’s (if not talented) or deathly

[subtle kiln]

excuse me sir, they asked for best

[spice spire]

And depending what they need the best of, there are a lot of options

[faint harness]

prepatch

chasing the biggest dps

so the bosses die in 1:20 minutes instead of 1:30

did nathria last night, almost felt like HFC

[subtle kiln]

time is money.

[faint harness]

look at these kill times

[subtle kiln]

too bad your dps didn’t feel like hfc

[balmy condor]

took you longer than an hour to clear the raid? kinda trolling honestly

[faint harness]

ye sorry

we tried some tech on denny

to have the entire raid stand in the frontal

and kill like 150 adds at the same time

took us a few pulls to get it down

[ember mural]

rip frames

[faint harness]

ye i mean i couldnt move my character for a good 15 seconds

was great fun

warlocks on top as usual

so it worked

prepatch balance

[surreal nova]

carry casters ftw

[faint harness]

have you seen aff lock breakdowns

[balmy condor]

is it just seed

[faint harness]

this is over the entire fight

soul flame

[balmy condor]

[faint harness]

it got nerfed on beta

"deals reduced dmg beyond 8 targets"

all because they cheesed some motes in prepatch

lesson to yall, dont abuse stuff in prepatch

[balmy condor]

Zul vibes

!bs

[prisma monolith]

Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message

[balmy condor]

it's a terribly janky macro

but if you super desire to do it

go for it

yeh

[pulsar fog]

I just use a modifier macro

[balmy condor]

that's pretty much what it needs

[lean fossil]

with current buffs, how far are we behind outlaw in st @balmy condor

[pulsar fog]

hold shift and it's ambush, otherwise mutilate

[balmy condor]

I hate that you said this

that's not a macro

that's just two fucking keybinds

[pulsar fog]

except I have it as a macro

[balmy condor]

how far are we behind outlaw in ST? About -10%

[lean fossil]

oof

[balmy condor]

maybe -15%

outlaw bad

right now, pretty okay

[lean fossil]

we passed dem boys up hard

[balmy condor]

yeah tier set gets fixed, we get another tuning pass

it's damage

[lean fossil]

so are we the top raid spec for st?

[balmy condor]

we're about 15% ahead of the other two

so yeah

[lean fossil]

ill take that every day of the week!

[dense yoke]

yayaya sin

[surreal nova]

its probably way too early, but are there any thoughts on the embellished items yet?

[faint harness]

neck is good

lariat

the rest are all kinda mid

[surreal nova]

hmkk

[faint harness]

i have only simmed them for sub, but the neck effect + weapon effect was ahead by a very small margin

weapon effect being "fanged adornments"

[surreal nova]

oh so thats like an optional reagent embellished, yes?

[faint harness]

ye

[dense yoke]

any way of getting tricks in the m+ tree?

[balmy condor]

gouge

into tricks

[dense yoke]

oh duh

[balmy condor]

could in theory also take tight spender out

it's not the biggest dps loss

but if you really need gouge AND tricks

you're probably a fiend for utility anyway

[surreal nova]

just blame the tanks. works perfectly for me

[dense yoke]

honestly love how we can take both kingsbane and IC for m+

[echo geyser]

@faint harness welcome

[faint harness]

Same to you brother

[echo geyser]

@balmy condor i am eagarly awaiting the apl improvements for 69k

🥵

[strange python]

born to sub forced to assa

[faint harness]

Way past that

69k is for losers

We chasing 80k or something

[thick sable]

I actually agree with this. Another thought I had is wouldn’t we want to take the 2 point improved poisons for application chance which buffs kingsbane?

[echo geyser]

wtf

rly?

we are blasting off

[pulsar fog]

into outer space

[faint harness]

Idek, whispyr reached 69.5k in some unoptimized dogtamer gear

[echo geyser]

sheesh

[faint harness]

So i assume 80k is within reach

[pulsar fog]

it was 408 ilvl i think

[faint harness]

Ye but shit trinkets and no embellished items or enchants

Thats more dps than you’d think

The cos ring is like 2k dps alone

[pulsar fog]

408 is end boss normal gear

[faint harness]

The ilvl number is irrelevant

408 is used because every other rogue spec is using it

So we can have some sense of where we’re at

It could have been any number

[pulsar fog]

yes but, in terms of reaching 80k+, 408 < 430+

is all I was saying

[faint harness]

I am talking about doing it in 408 ilvl tho, but sure yes

[echo geyser]

i want the juice

[drifting cloud]

think its enchanted

or are wep enchants not inplemented

[faint harness]

They are

[balmy condor]

69k is real

I have some crafted gear

and weapon enchants

it's just pvp trinkets

because the more crazy ones aren't fully implemented

[faint harness]

Manic grieftorch looks kinda nutty

[surreal nova]

channel trinket, meh. but it would be practically a permanent 30sec cd in my guild -.-

[faint harness]

Does a lot of dmg per use

[surreal nova]

and you can combine it with the ring, i guess

[faint harness]

Doesnt work

I tried

Must be spells only or something

[surreal nova]

ah shame, ok

but if that is all not really in the sims yet, is there even consumbles in and if so which ones were used?

[faint harness]

That sim was using SL consumables

But new ones are working

[thorn fjord]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue

[hardy wind]

how big of a loss is not taking exsang for any of the builds?

[balmy condor]

okay but before the balance changes we were dreading taking the poison nodes because shadowstep was a dead dps node and the poison nodes were better, you can't have it both ways. I don't think it's that insane considering bloody mess + exsang + shrouded is a lot of synergy. At the end of the day the instant damage of each poison is about 6.5% before taking those nodes, and gar/rup are 12.5% and 10.5% respectively without bloody mess. DTB's strength isn't contrived from raw instant damage on poisons, nor should it be. There are plenty of synergies and effects like lethal dose or amp poison buffing envenom which allows dtb to be an interesting effect and allow it to be more than "ook ook double poison, poison do damage, now it do two"

Not only are poisons less engaging (aka. entirely passive), but they provide additional effects that give them power beyond additional application or damage. They're still fairly balanced nodes and can be considered in place of a lot of talents you might avoid like exsang or SBS.

And I hear your point of "they should just be strong though" but it ain't that easy. Everything is a give and take. You can't make bleeds strong and then expect poisons to do damage too. There's especially this issue of poison application rate, because right now, you don't need more. We attack so fast that amp poison is always stacked, for every envenom. Deadly poison and instant poison just give more damage. There's just fundamental issues with how assassinations damage works on a larger scale. That's not something a talent page can fix, and I think the talents are all balanced pretty close to still be a competitive option

in fact, the kingsbane build already takes a point in improved poisons for the synergy

[sudden hound]

thats going to be my dtb builds name now ty. poison do damage now it do two

[balmy condor]

its a lot, but I'm not sure if thats a sim failing or not, something I'll have to check. somewhere between 1% and 3% is the best guess

[regal sable]

now that duskwalkers is fixed and i can experience it again i realise how much im gonna miss it at 70

whispyr can you fix all of everyones problems instantly pls

[balmy condor]

dude I'm trying

[regal sable]

<3

[hardy wind]

along with SnD , exsang makes me sad 😦 i would either not play sin or not pick it at all no matter the loss 😛

[balmy condor]

last week ttb was -1.2% to exsang now it's -6%

and I'm struggling to see why

[regal sable]

i enjoy exsang i just want to be a 1 min dm class

[hardy wind]

btw Whispyr ty for your hard and meticulous work m8

[regal sable]

ya its nice playing a spec with a dedicated tc

huge thankless job

[balmy condor]

np

[uncut echo]

Hey whispyr

I hope ur having a good night bud

[balmy condor]

I am..... having a night

but it's nothing another can of red bull cannot solve

[uncut echo]

Im sorry man

Sims and chill

?

[regal sable]

whispyr i hope u have a better morning

[balmy condor]

work and sims and chill

I work friday night, saturday night, sunday morning, monday morning

at least this week

and then I have method guide due next week, as well as a wowhead article which is fun, and then dragonflight wowhead update

and the FaQ

and maplestory winter update on wednesday

I wonder what I'm gonna set as a priority

out of those

[regal sable]

surely maplestory

right

[balmy condor]

opens steam

[earnest remnant]

first pinned screenshot is that ST? (have not even read assa talents through yet)

[balmy condor]

you should read first, then ask questions

[earnest remnant]

ah literally says

mb

[balmy condor]

give me a gear set that is comparable to sub/outlaw sims then

zac said he's changing gear every other sim

do you have a link to a sub sim?

I'll copy paste the gear

I ain't trying to sandbag

[earnest remnant]

ive got fuu's sims for sub which is a bit optimized id say

[balmy condor]

give

[earnest remnant]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kHWktVc9U98LLQQWbuqgHX/simc

[balmy condor]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3hxRJHsjCkSJ2NH8hGni8S

pog that gear set gave me 1.5k dps

dogwater gear was -2% @faint harness my bad bro won't ever make the mistake again

my gear put the sub sim at 61k, and the optimized gear put it at 63k

Idk man

63.8k vs 70.9k, it's still 15% behind

[surreal nova]

its a lot ye

[balmy condor]

it is

but it's not like the gear in the sims making this huge impact

[surreal nova]

i doubt itll stay this much, but sin still has the execute card. thats worth so much in progression

[balmy condor]

I don't know what the dps goal is, or if they even care what the sim number says at the end of the day

sin is much stronger than sub

and that should change

people being able to play their spec is good

[surreal nova]

ye

wait, why are we using two different ranks of the same weapon enchant?

[balmy condor]

because it's good

idk

my gear is dogshit apparently

I do what the others do

[thorn crater]

i dont see any mention on the pins for our nerf on flying daggers especially after being forced to take it to save talent points

[balmy condor]

or else the sub OTP's will come out and yell at me

[surreal nova]

sub police

[thorn crater]

so sad

[earnest remnant]

i will never yell at you whispyr

doing gods work

[balmy condor]

[balmy condor]

[thorn crater]

i guess we will have to survive with those minor buffs

[surreal nova]

...

[thorn crater]

on garrote, zoldyck, and KB

[balmy condor]

yeah woe is us

we're probably the strongest single target spec in the game atm

[thorn crater]

i loved flying daggers. had a nightmare about losing their range

[next arch]

Are all spec channels just doomposting or shit posts?

[thorn crater]

i thought we agreed we werent going there

nah chill im memeing a bit for good fun

[balmy condor]

yeah pretty much

[thorn crater]

we super strong

[next arch]

[balmy condor]

it's either "this spec/talent is shit fuck you" or "haha lmaooooooo", or a question from someone who's never played wow before in their lives

[plain cipher]

hey can i use 2 edge of nights they both do the proc or edge + umbral shiv. spending dinars

[next arch]

I can't even tell with Feral. Pretty sure it's just people talking about boomkin Alot

[surreal nova]

you should have seen the enhancer channel with the 25% nerf. they even use that as a time reference. before nerf and post nerf

[balmy condor]

the damage stacks at the same proc rate, definitely worth

[next arch]

2 eon good

1 eon not as good

Spend 2 dinar on them

[next arch]

Always fun

[balmy condor]

I mean when sin gets buffs this chat is cruising

[surreal nova]

true

[thorn crater]

which is prolly why the entirety of SL we poopoo

gotta be having a doomsayer to keep things going

how's work broski?

u doing good? just woke up after a 4 hour sleep i think im getting yoour sleep schedule

7am here

[drifting cloud]

I stay the same regardless of balance dont @ me

[balmy condor]

uh, had a fuse fizzle, fixed that, but then the motor overheated, replaced a couple belts, smell of burnt rubber will not leave my nostrils

but aside from that it's okay

[echo geyser]

im here regardless but for different reasons

[drifting cloud]

you gonna level ramfambo 2nd?

[balmy condor]

mushroom enjoyer

[echo geyser]

[echo geyser]

rogue into hunter is the plan yeah

more chars not planned yet but seems game will be quite dead before raids

so prob a 3rd one

[balmy condor]

monk?

ramspin?

[oak pulsar]

If ur into professions lvl drakthyr gatherer

[oak sky]

im all over monk

[oak pulsar]

Plan for me is rogue drakthyr and maybe druid

[oak sky]

the return of agreonchizus

and ill find a meta spec to abuse

[balmy condor]

I pugged with a monk at one point named kimchi and I'm like yo that's sick and they're like yeah my names kim

and that's really epic if you ask me

that's the end of the story

[thorn crater]

btw for anyone in the beta. do those 15 points of some races on professions help as much as it seems? or do you start at zero for DF professions

[surreal nova]

its only 5 afaik

and it can be the difference between quality levels, but most of the time youll want inspiration procs for that, at least in the beginning for a good while

[thorn crater]

so you only get 5? not 15?

[surreal nova]

my goblin has only 5 in alchemy. i assume its the same for all professions

[earnest remnant]

ngl tho, after spending 4 hours playing outlaw today sitting playing assa on beta is so nice and relaxing

[thorn crater]

i dno i feel like especially for inscription nightborne get a huge benefit since it lets you get on 50 faster

and focus on the increasing quality part

[surreal nova]

it is indeed a decent buff if you value crafting, but i wouldnt overhype it (yet)

[thorn crater]

not about overhyping, i just ike the fact that there is a different goal in the game

other than pew pew gear grind pog minmaxing everything

[obtuse ruin]

Is subterfuge not a dps increase in m+? With the triple garrotes

[balmy condor]

improved garrote

is subterfuge

subterfuge does nothing in that regard

[surreal nova]

highest what ive seen was 425 skill required for ultimate potions, and 418 skill achieved with gear and enchants. 5 is not enough to cap it, but im not entirely sure if you cant squeeze out a bit more

[obtuse ruin]

You lost me

[echo geyser]

yeah would be great if sin becomes the move

[balmy condor]

there is a talent called improved garrote on the right side of the sin tree

[earnest remnant]

ive got sub bias but i do enjoy assa more than outlaw

[balmy condor]

that has replaced the old subterfuge

[echo geyser]

the longevity spec

[balmy condor]

the subterfuge on the class tree

[obtuse ruin]

Ooh got it

[echo geyser]

bing chilling

[balmy condor]

no longer does the old subterfuge thing

so you take improved garrote

[echo geyser]

outlaw has a very short shelf life

[balmy condor]

and then subterfuge on class tree is useless

[thorn crater]

subterfuge is basically just a sub talent now right?

for the shadowstrikes

[echo geyser]

(your wrists & hands)

[balmy condor]

subterfuge is a pvp talent

for cheap shots

[thorn crater]

btw i assume we can freely replace blackjack and prey for imp sprint and tricks

[gusty kestrel]

[balmy condor]

you can put the utility points wherever you'd like as long as you reach resounding clarity, tea, and deeper

[gusty kestrel]

thinking u have freedom in ur talents

also

@balmy condor

[balmy condor]

[gusty kestrel]

[thorn crater]

also, for the build u sent earlier from raidbots. if gloomblade is bad , cant u replace gloomblade+sbs for 2 points in zoldyck?

[gusty kestrel]

gloomblade?

[balmy condor]

[echo geyser]

[gusty kestrel]

wrong spec buddy

[echo geyser]

been hitting the penjamin a bit too hard a few too many blinkertons

[thorn crater]

doomblade

sorry sorry

😛

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3hxRJHsjCkSJ2NH8hGni8S

i meant this

its 7:30 am

[echo geyser]

its 6:41 here where u live

[thorn crater]

greece

oh 7:40

no glasses

[echo geyser]

i thought u were fulcrum for a second

[thorn crater]

i have a hunter named fulcrum

does it count

[echo geyser]

no shot

[thorn crater]

yes

[echo geyser]

new char or old

[vernal wind]

Hey folks, I've been reading the opener guides for sin and I'm not 100% certain when to blow exsang on the opener with deathmark while in the process of going through KB, shiv spam.

[gusty kestrel]

but yes you can replace those if you feel like u value execute more than overall

[thorn crater]

fairly new

[echo geyser]

[gusty kestrel]

as you can see theres not a big difference in the builds already so

[thorn crater]

can u imagine if CT was where flying daggers is

we might actually become CT ST enjoyers

[gusty kestrel]

no

[balmy condor]

how are you opening the gate

[thorn crater]

ye just noticed

[cerulean nest]

how the frick do we open

on ST

[balmy condor]

get up dots

then press all the cooldowns

[gusty kestrel]

garret 1 garret 2

[vernal wind]

inb4 "wtb swifty macro for sin"

[gusty kestrel]

that only works on off gcd stuff

assa is a chain of on gcd abilities

[balmy condor]

2 chainzzzzzzzzzz

[cerulean nest]

4 bracelets

[thorn crater]

ure right u have to take VV, then u swap one point in zoldyck for SBS. which i assume isnt worth it

[balmy condor]

correct

[thorn crater]

still, one less button to press

😛

keybinds are a mess sigh

[rotund dock]

hey al what should i pick for my covenenant i just leveled my first rogue

[spice spire]

Venthyr

Whatever you want tho

But venthyr probably

[gusty kestrel]

[oak pulsar]

Does death mark do the snapshotting thing we had to do in 9.2.5 like re up bleeds just before it expires?

[thorn crater]

if ure planning on down the campaign, the covenant that has the mounts u like the most

[balmy condor]

no

[thorn crater]

is improved poisons bad partly because of SND?

we already apply poisons fast enough, there is no benefit in faster application

[balmy condor]

I guess kinda yeah

but snd also makes improved poisons good

because you can apply more

pick your poison

[oak pulsar]

Nice I see what you did there

[balmy condor]

good good

[spice spire]

I don’t

Can you elaborate

[balmy condor]

sure

so "pick your poison" is a saying right, between two bad situations, you have to pick one

[surreal nova]

no

nonono

[balmy condor]

and because the discussion is about poisons

it's a double entendre

[surreal nova]

you cant hate on the scale joke and then do this

[balmy condor]

since you have to pick your poisons

in the game

which is the entire punchline to the joke

[surreal nova]

-.-

[balmy condor]

it's funny because it has two meanings

[spice spire]

I’m unsure what two entrees have to do with this

[balmy condor]

https://tenor.com/view/i-just-did-nailed-it-drop-the-mic-mic-drop-were-done-gif-6231524

[oak pulsar]

Educating the masses is important

[spice spire]

I guess I could ask what they are?

Maybe that’s the key

[balmy condor]

the key? whatcha pushin bud?

[spice spire]

It’s a push week

Big sub propaganda

[balmy condor]

dog (pfp) shit m plusser

[spice spire]

Mister pushnoir himself

Real

[thorn crater]

i assume we dont have access to sims for dragonflight as plebs right

[balmy condor]

sure you do

lil ptr=1 and yoinking a dragonflight APL later

and you got yourself a dragonflight sim

[thorn crater]

if only i knew how to do that

besides u still need the gear for it no

[balmy condor]

ah see, that's the test

if you don't know how to do it

[spice spire]

Profile is ez

[balmy condor]

you don't get to do it

[earnest remnant]

do you just send exang on cd all the time no lining up or anything for Deathmark, just send the sucker

[balmy condor]

yes man

[earnest remnant]

aite

[spice spire]

I know whispyr is on shit when the yejoices start flying

[thorn crater]

ill just yoink the one u did

and run a different talent setup

[glacial bough]

@balmy condor i need maplestory help

[earnest remnant]

7 in the morning for me and im sitting hitting dummies on assa, never thought the day would come

[balmy condor]

that I can do

[spice spire]

[glacial bough]

should i dm or ask here i have a few questions lmao

[balmy condor]

dm is fine

gotta wait till we have enough converts to make a ravenholdt maplestory channel

[lean fossil]

what the heck is maplestory? lol

[oak pulsar]

I feel like that makes exsang much easier when it's on CD and not a timing thing setting aside the "other" issues

[balmy condor]

a korean 2D hack and slash mmo that's very good and older than dirt

in a golden age atm

[drifting cloud]

sorry this happened to you

[uncut echo]

OSRS enjoyers where

[oak pulsar]

Here everyone in my guild plays OSRS

[echo geyser]

best timeline

[earnest remnant]

it do be chill to play

[thorn crater]

@balmy condor so im trying to rerun the sim u made and add a new talent layout but after i input the talents it doesnt let me close the talent window and im stuck looking at a copy to clipboard button XD

[spice spire]

In 2004 where they belong

[balmy condor]

[vernal adder]

ask Nibren

[thorn crater]

i didnt wanna bother you and send it here

fml

[spice spire]

Bro you think I can just ask him without offering a gif of the BRAH?

[vernal adder]

[spice spire]

Exactly

[drifting cloud]

https://imgur.com/JFq2BCa

[balmy condor]

PoV outlaw players realizing they're only 5% ahead in dslice

[thorn crater]

alright fuck it

what about this insanity?

[balmy condor]

compared to?

[thorn crater]

everything u have been doing

[balmy condor]

brother

[thorn crater]

the optimal build lets say

is what i mean

[balmy condor]

I've run 95 sims in 3 days

[thorn crater]

oh shit

lmao

[vernal adder]

go for 100

[surreal nova]

surely you can run more if you play less maplestory

[thorn crater]

how does it look for starters?

focusing just on the poisons and garrote and having rupture be a fuckall ability

[balmy condor]

in single target yeh?

[thorn crater]

yes

[balmy condor]

aight hold a min

[spice spire]

[lean fossil]

whispyr is about to be like, its 10% lower than my build

[thorn crater]

i hate the person that invented this frog thing with a passion ngl