assassination

[fleet imp]

[royal lantern]

very evil

[next edge]

I expect the guide to EXACTLY TELL ME how I should play my class

EVEYR SINGLE TALENT AND ABILITY MUST BE PERFECTLY WRITTEN ON THE GUIDE

WTF DUDE!

[royal lantern]

whispr didnt even put his cat ears on for a long time

[fleet imp]

Also wtf days ago pick Kb now pick poison bomb

[royal lantern]

its his evil twin

[fleet imp]

Why doesnt it tell me poison bomb since the beginning

[peak bobcat]

Because it’s prepatch and nobody fucking cares

[next edge]

Tell that to the guy hard complaining about the guide

[peak bobcat]

Min-maxing assas dps to be 10k lower than outlaw anyways

[fleet imp]

[peak bobcat]

Wanna have fun playing rogue? Simple as

Turn off details

[next edge]

It just makes my blood to boil when people like this guy make this super-rude commentaries

I swear

[fleet imp]

@next edge you know its done well once ppl reply to you

[vestal dune]

If you go to the talent tab on the guide, I think thsoe talents are updated

"Talent builds"

[peak bobcat]

Or better idea, read the talents and sim them yourself

You can be the guide!

[royal lantern]

always show me

[peak bobcat]

Hit a dummy and look at the damage meter and maybe you can tell whispyr why his talents are bad and can contribute to the conversation on how to make a better build

[next edge]

It's much better to just here and complain

and then never come back

[fleet imp]

Wasting this many words to someone complaining about ppl telling him "look at pins"

[peak bobcat]

It’s just crazy that people care about pre patch builds on a literal bottom 2 spec

[royal lantern]

allright, you guys dont need to go full asshat btw

saying "its not 100% perfect and just a quick done, the guidewriter spends his time doing DF sims and stuff" is enough, dont need to fully clown on people that just asked

[fleet imp]

You are a 2 buttons! I have mfd builder spender 3 diff bleeds and the cds to remember in which order to use

Sin is hard

[peak bobcat]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/28#dataset=99

this must be because whispyr's guide is bad smh

his wrong talents that lose me 80 dps make the difference!

[next edge]

Well, I kinda disagree on that. Because the way he asked was super rude and bad manners

but lets just move on

[fleet imp]

But hey shadow priest is worse

[royal lantern]

i like how you hear EVERYTHING about spriest

"its perfect!" "its allright" "its the worst tree in the game"

saw all in the last 4hours 🙂

[fleet imp]

A guildmate stopped playing

On df

Atm is trash

[peak bobcat]

Casuals only have fun when their class is good

like people saying s4 venthyr outlaw is super fun and interesting

[next edge]

SP will be amazing

in new raid

im 100% sure

like otp tier

[royal lantern]

real capital G Gamers simply never have fun

[peak bobcat]

when its the worst iteration of the entire expansion but it happens to be op

[viscid spear]

I play Holy on my Priest because Shadow has felt pretty janky through this expac
Was trying out some builds the other day and it feels a lot better tho

[peak musk]

come on stop the dickriding...

[peak bobcat]

the Assas rogue curse

[next edge]

Learn some manners

[royal lantern]

but ridding dick is awesome

[fleet imp]

This prepatch is so dumb that you need 0 dps to kill bosses

We killed jailer like it was a patchwerk once P2 was over 😂

[next edge]

We had to stop dps a lot on Jailer

because we were pushing so hard

that he did double MC

without any pillar

[fleet imp]

I was so hyped about the 2min burst pre phasing

That the game said fuck you

[next edge]

and Sylvanas for some reason bugged

[peak musk]

hahaha okay sry that i say somesthing
infectious or what his name is is a meme for bad guids but hey if its someone else its okay ^^
hf fun

[fleet imp]

And decidee to do hide, lines and all the shit together

[next edge]

and he stayed between 2 platforms

[fleet imp]

End of p1 was awfull af

[viscid spear]

What's going on in here

[fleet imp]

Not much, hows your week start so far?

[subtle tundra]

Prepatch 🛏️😴

[next edge]

And still 1 month of no content

and do keys

[fleet imp]

Talent tree experimenting is fun

[next edge]

I play with a Feral and a Guardian

[subtle tundra]

If they had disabled sl stuff

Maybe

[next edge]

I have no time for fun

Like why you disable tier

and no leggos

[spice spire]

It’s a one month break angle

[subtle tundra]

Makes no sense to test df shit with sl shit

[spice spire]

[peak bobcat]

I play my feral druid just so I can see what its like for bleeds to do damage

[fleet imp]

Imagine the 2 tier set with those talents

Sucks it is disabled

Would have been fun on keys

[peak bobcat]

wish we still had 2 set in aoe

would make keys fun

[fleet imp]

Carnage Improved garrote deathly shadow

Pack ded

Spiking around 70,80k atm

[next edge]

Im just playing the outlaw build with vanish because looks kinda fun

[fleet imp]

Would have been 100k +

[next edge]

but missing so important talents as Assa feels bad

like not being able to even take DTB

[peak bobcat]

It feels so bad it’s not worth playing

You either get a capstone or your 1 and 2 pointers that make you do damage

[subtle tundra]

Never gonna play outlaw for fun

[vestal wren]

thats correct, you play #subtlety for fun

[subtle tundra]

I actually did play a bit of sub for fun padding

But never with kyrian

Fuck kyrian most frustrating thing in the game with sub passive

[vestal wren]

there is a way to make it a bit better managable

but yes, i am happy that kyrian did not end up as the best choice for sub in DF

[viscid spear]

Wanting to get home and play, I'd talk about more but this isn't OT

[royal lantern]

for now

🙂

[vestal wren]

i mean, it isn't terrible

just not the best option

and this is a good state

[proper tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/right-grandma-nods-yes-gif-14150618

[vestal wren]

but assassinaiton is the low apm spec 😉

[spice spire]

Not anymore

[vestal wren]

you sure?

[subtle tundra]

delete exsanguinate

[spice spire]

[subtle tundra]

and while we are at deleting things, delete outlaw

[viscid spear]

Deletus Amongus

[copper hazel]

Don't let the outlols see this, they'll demand reasons why this isn't over 80

[vestal wren]

outlaw lost a bit of trust

after they complained so much about the initial nerfs, indirectly even claiming the spec to be 55 apm or lower

what now turns out to be 70+ apm after picking decent talents

[steel ridge]

tbf in outlaw channel there are some serious nutjobs roaming around

[vestal wren]

no need to be insulting

[steel ridge]

just an observation with no particular name in mind 😉

[vestal wren]

it was just a temporary misjudgment from some individuals

they have a lot of great people with good expertise that contribute a lot

[steel ridge]

no doubt

generally theres an influx of returning, new or rerolling players coming in here throwing around all kinds of weird takes

"spec xyz ded now?"

[sturdy merlin]

Yeah lots of fotm rerollers in there

[steel ridge]

"wot best spec?" jadda jadda

"we lookin gud brah?"

[dark token]

anyone got the deathly shadows simc string 🙏

[vestal wren]

the id of deathly is 7126

so if you use dusk, easy way to switch would be to replace 7118 with the above

(not perfect, but good enough for a estimate)

[dark token]

That's not helping me cause I didn't have dusk, didn't play sin in s3-4. Now I wanna try it out in prepatch

I'm trying to sim deathly/zoldyck/dashing legendaries but it's really annoying to munge the text file and add em

[vestal wren]

then just remove your legendary via id from your input

and put this below it in advanced sim

the id should be easy to find as it starts with 7

[raven knoll]

Is there a graph of apm for aoe?

[vestal wren]

for single target

[raven knoll]

Ye but does something like that exist for aoe? Or is it harder to simulate?

[vestal wren]

it is not harder, just a different configuration

this is with the same talents and 5 targets

assassination def. gets higher apm with targets due to higher energy income

[raven knoll]

oh nice.

I thought assa would be higher then sub on AOE

[sturdy merlin]

well sub has more off-gcd buttons

[fleet imp]

Well sub aoe is (maybe was) 2 buttons

Sin requires more "skill" I would guess

[raven knoll]

ye but this is simulation I guess this is nearly perfect rotation.

[spice spire]

Does this account for my tab pressing

[vestal wren]

it didn't even change talents

so e.g. subtlety would probably go up in apm even

assassiantion too? maybe?

[viscid spear]

I'm pressing charges
But I actually do tab target quite a bit

[dense yoke]

does kui nameplates work for anyone yet lol

[mystic garden]

are legendries going away with dragonflight?

[green apex]

I'm dumb, where did you find that apm chart on bloodmallet @vestal wren ?

[limber lion]

Yes

[green apex]

I couldn't get it to work and gave up myself

[sullen hollow]

when duskwalker work ree

[vestal wren]

that is just a regular sim on raidbots, not from a sim website

[languid field]

https://github.com/kesava-wow/kuinameplates2/issues/611#issuecomment-1291861448

This worked for me

[dense yoke]

ur a lifesaver gonna try it in a bit

[dark token]

i used kui for years and took this opportunity to finally go plater

[limber lion]

Good

Plater >

[dark token]

mind linking your profile btw

wowhead build kinda sus

[limber lion]

can find it in wago or just google it lol

[limber lion]

The wowhead example is pretty much just the same build as previously in Shadowlands, except you play Deathmark instead of Vendetta.

Great if you don't like change or want to change as little as possible

[dark token]

isnt that the exact opposite of what you want in prepatch

testing new talents in a environment where shit doesnt matter

[limber lion]

Not for everyone

[sturdy merlin]

Wowhead build is fire

Blindside is fire

[dark token]

too bad duskwalker aint working

[sturdy merlin]

Exsang poopoo

[limber lion]

You take Blindside with KB anyways

[dark token]

comparing this to my outlaw sim also pretty sad

things i learned simming

• thistle tea is worse than deeper (lmao)
• improved poisons/fatal concoction is a trap
• amp poison/ttk are A W F U L
• exang/kingsbane are gods

[limber lion]

KB isn't even super duper good

DTB still better than KB but you can't get that so unlucko malacko

[dark token]

my no kingsbane sim was 5% behind but yeah it cant grab dtb so

[limber lion]

I'll have you know that the apl for most of these legendaries has not been optimized.

[dark token]

of course

i dont expect stuff to be perfect

[limber lion]

I would personally just suggest playing Deathly everywhere personally.

[dark token]

its a small enough difference that playstyle minmax probably makes it better than dashing, ye

no idea on dungeonslice or aoe this is just ST sims

[violet jackal]

Dashing Scoundrel lookin like a winner tho

[dark token]

dashing is like .7% better with no effort optimizing deathly apl

its reasonable to say you can find some minmaxes with deathly that make it better or even the difference is small enough no one cares

the important takeaway from this imo is definitely go kingsbane/exang

[limber lion]

Did you not read the conversation lol.

[dark token]

or if you arent playing kingsbane

do this build instead

this build + zoldyck legendary, or kingsbane + deathly

[violet jackal]

I did but the picture stood out more

[ember wharf]

This is 🔥

[slim siren]

i gotta ask cause i dont know if its the new talent tree or the prepatch in general but does anyone else feel like sin is soulless rn? like its not nearly as fun without certain abilitys like vendetta

[subtle tundra]

but

[sour elm]

I’m not sure, I love death mark though

[subtle tundra]

vendetta literally got replaced by a better ability

[drifting cloud]

varas whats your secret build, link

[uncut echo]

KINGSBANE AND DTB YOU FUCKING COWARDS

[sour elm]

My alt is feral though so like, it’s a bit of a struggle seeing cat bleed out dotting sin dots

[balmy condor]

Or……. It could just be that I’m not going to change a guide over and over and over for every little bug that exists and could get fixed any day, for a patch that lasts 4 weeks, with no new content and a nightmare of balance. If you want the extra 0.6% of playing a perfectly min-maxed build I suggest you play outlaw, which is a full 40-50% ahead right now.

Guides are very inefficient at conveying up-to-the-minute information. There’s no notification of a change, there’s no way to know what exactly changed. That’s why I do big changes in guides and then do temp announcements in discord. Also if you bothered to read anything I’ve wrote in either place (don’t worry, I’ll screenshot it for you), you might’ve noticed a trend that I’m trying to give people new stuff to play with and experiment around before the expansion drops, instead of recommending the same shit over and over.

Hopefully that clears up for you “why nobody edits this guide”

[slim siren]

you think so? i liked vendetta more then i like death mark,

[uncut echo]

MAKE THE 3 POINTERS 2 POINTERS

[subtle tundra]

nf, zoldyck, dreamweaver

[slim siren]

yea that also feels awful im gonna be honest

were the only spec with 3 point talents now arent we?

[uncut echo]

Bm has 1 in soec

But it's legit cracked so idm it being a 3 pointer

[balmy condor]

Sorry to disappoint

[slim siren]

ye, it feels bad like every other spec takes 2 capstones or atleast has the option 2 but all we can do is take capstones that would just be bad to take with eachother

[sour elm]

I hope dtb becomes the go to for some content because I’m bad and need less buttons

[subtle tundra]

then you go like mfd, exsang, sbs, er, tea

and instead of big important cds you have 4 shitty ones

[sour elm]

[versed rapids]

As a newer rogue all these acronyms for skills it’s rough to read sometimes! Wtb a map of skills and their short names 🙂

[balmy condor]

Working on it

[versed rapids]

Well damn! What service 🙂

[balmy condor]

Should be part of the #assassination-faq for dragonflight

There’s an acronym page on wowhead for a lot of stuff

But I haven’t updated it yet to include dragonflight because I’ve been a bit busy, sorry @peak musk I’m sure that’s a deal breaker for you as well

But that will get updated as well

[uncut echo]

Whispyr, your dedication to rogue makes my heart flutter

[versed rapids]

Let me know if I can help!

[balmy condor]

I’ll send you an early copy to look over :)

[slim siren]

are people using SS for shrouded suffocation or shadow step?

[uncut echo]

Shrouded do dam

Shadowstep doesnt do dam

[slim siren]

respectable

[west tiger]

cant i put on 2 poisons?

[violet jackal]

yes. one lethal, and one non lethal

[west tiger]

ah nvmd thought i can put 2 lethal

[balmy condor]

only with dragon tempered blades

[west tiger]

ah k thanks

[limber lion]

Kingsbane goes brrrrr

[balmy condor]

do you think people would like deathmark more if it combined all the duplicates into one line on details like with sims?

[limber lion]

Funny you mention it because I got excited about seeing that on Raidbots today

On Quick Sim

Looks cute, actually doing something

[balmy condor]

when I was optimizing exsang I saw a 700k deathmark

in a single cast

[limber lion]

[balmy condor]

current one averages around 500k

[oak sky]

Ok but that breakdown goes hrd cev

[limber lion]

Yeah for sure

[oak sky]

Kingsbane rupture and garrote friends never lose

[dense herald]

Is this prepatch stuff or beta, don’t get my hopes up about kingsbane over dtb

[limber lion]

Pre patch

[gusty kestrel]

theres banshees blight at 10%

that thing wont be allowed at 70

or will it 😏

@limber lion quickly hide the evidence

[limber lion]

Shit they're on to us

[gusty kestrel]

[neon elm]

How are assassin rogues looking in comparison to sub and outlaw for m+?

[limber lion]

bad

[neon elm]

Like shadowlands feral Druid bad or just not OP

[gusty kestrel]

worse than feral

by a mile

[limber lion]

Well Feral still did fineish damage with the tier set, was just super duper boring to actually play.

[tacit oar]

hey !

[limber lion]

But yeh, it's not super great

[neon elm]

Dang

[tacit oar]

any WA to recommand ? would like to try this spec

[limber lion]

Feels kinda fine to play honestly, but the numbers are not there

[balmy condor]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/LuxthosRogueDragonflight (Luxthos's Group)

[neon elm]

I figured with the new keystone indiscriminate carnage they would have improved greatly

[tacit oar]

thanks a lot

[gusty kestrel]

no

10/10 effort for 2/10 output

[drifting cloud]

yeah improves from unplayable to bad

[balmy condor]

carnage is sick, the payoff for taking it just isn't there. It's like 10% over DTB in aoe but -25% in single target

[fleet imp]

join a +20
wait 30 min to find ppl
meet with the team in the instance
lol assa
kicked

[visual hemlock]

??? xD

[subtle tundra]

i mean i have pugged as assa in high keys

and its nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be

[fleet imp]

whats high keys for you

[subtle tundra]

like actual high keys not 20

[spice spire]

I’ve literally never had that happen, even when I did pug keys

[fleet imp]

how much do you manage to deal overall?

Just curious

[subtle tundra]

idk??????????

why would i care about prepatch

[fleet imp]

I do care just to have an idea, but if you dont remember its cool

[subtle tundra]

i dont play prepatch

i dont know

[acoustic sky]

[fleet imp]

tbf its not that bad, you do big aoe burst every min

[subtle tundra]

you do like no st, right?

literally tank st

[fleet imp]

outside of carnage its kinda floor pov

yeah

[gusty kestrel]

varas out here conquering the +30s on beta

[subtle tundra]

nah

its all learning

playing with dog specs

[oak sky]

I did a random 15 workshop with no leggo and i did 23k

[balmy condor]

[oak sky]

That was top 💀

[gusty kestrel]

with dog specs?

[oak sky]

Yes

[gusty kestrel]

youre playing assa, youre one of them

[oak sky]

Lmaoooo

Shadow priest and mm hunter

[spice spire]

Bark bark mf

[steel ridge]

dog spec 😄

[oak sky]

Its pretty playable though

[runic hinge]

Probably do better damage with dog specs cause it gives your bleeds time

[oak sky]

If i had zold on maybe more dam

Better timings and you actually have carnage every pack

[balmy condor]

💀 what is that survival doing home boy

[gusty kestrel]

thats bm

[steel ridge]

thats a bm i think

and that key was scuffed af 😄

[subtle tundra]

whats that ww doing

[balmy condor]

that's the joke

[steel ridge]

ww was having floor pov

alot

[gusty kestrel]

not funny whispyr

so u couldnt even beat a floor pov windwalker

dog spec

[steel ridge]

i gotta say, flying daggers is just a meme

[balmy condor]

sometimes you gotta take a risk and it doesn't pay off ya know

[steel ridge]

i pulled the whole dungeon by accident

[balmy condor]

no shit?

the worst talent we have

is a meme?

[steel ridge]

its so big

[balmy condor]

this changes everything

[steel ridge]

randomly pulling more packs

tank must have hated me

[visual hemlock]

well if assa again gonna mop floor in season 1, ill just go play bm 😄

[gusty kestrel]

wow, now I really know to avoid this talent

thanks

[balmy condor]

but he just linked a details where he beat a bm

[visual hemlock]

Press 2 buttons, top on damage, while as assa press 8 and still below everyone lol

[balmy condor]

that means you can never play bm again

[oak sky]

Im ready to top pug keys

Im back wit a vengeqnce

[balmy condor]

because that one details didn't have it on top

[oak sky]

Terrorizing YOUR high keys

[runic hinge]

It’s not the player it’s the spec

[spice spire]

You’re a bottom if I’ve ever seen it buddy

[fleet imp]

Thats quite alot for a 15 since stuff dies fast

[oak sky]

False and unsubstantiated

[spice spire]

🤨

[gusty kestrel]

actual bottom if ure hyped for pug keys

[fleet imp]

which key was this?

[oak sky]

Yeah i hate pug keys

But i get to slam i guess

Slam the fart 😂

[sand elm]

has any1 else noticed an increase in general durability loss?

[steel ridge]

weapons kinda go fast yeah

[runic hinge]

Blizz increasing taxes

[balmy condor]

yeah they did that to increase blacksmith viability

since you need their hammers to repair stuff now

[subtle tundra]

yea bro i outdps'd those destro and survs in that 15 it doesnt matter that they were complete bots assa is good

[sand elm]

nani

[oak sky]

Me

[steel ridge]

not very smooth yard 24

[sand elm]

it feels weird not having sbs after using it for so long

[balmy condor]

why wouldn't you have sbs

[oak sky]

Why would you have used it for so long

[viscid spear]

[sand elm]

im using the kingsbane build

from wowhead

[balmy condor]

oh

[sand elm]

and it doesnt take it

[balmy condor]

right

prepatch

fkin stupid

[sand elm]

lol

[spice spire]

Because they’re based

[limber lion]

Tasty.

[fleet imp]

👍🏻

[gusty kestrel]

sorry not enough to beat 900k ele blast

even losing to frost shock

[limber lion]

Yeah and this is fire mage aoe :)

completely passive

[balmy condor]

dot spec

[glacial bough]

thats kinda lame

[sand elm]

checks out

[gusty kestrel]

big double dipping

[pliant flare]

good thing he sipped the shadow core oil

[oak sky]

No flamestrike

Its wild

[regal sable]

which talents did u end up running?

[thorn crater]

we getting any streams whispyr?

[steel ridge]

still figuring out what works and what doesnt

[balmy condor]

Doing some cleaning, maybe in a bit, tomorrow for sure

[white temple]

Just so let me understand something... We DO spam CT even if the DoT is already present and not in pandemic?

[spice spire]

No

[white temple]

What am I supposed to do in AoE then, spam FoK into Envenoms and keep up Rups and CT?

[spice spire]

You have plenty, maintain CT, spread bleeds through rupture and garrotes, and maintain snd via envenom

[viscid spear]

Sin AoE is very lackluster, so you might as well do as Quake says and just put bleeds on as many targets as you can.

[fallen arch]

Or spam envenom and pray to the gods for good pb procs

[viscid spear]

Or just make sure the other 2 dps are actual AoE classes and focus on boss damage yourself

[regal sable]

if you use IC and no PB you can spam CT if SnD doesn't fall and there are more than 6 targets iirc

[timid cloud]

Is spamming CT really worth it in sub 15-20?

That sounds kinda awkward to me.

[visual coyote]

Anyone know why my action bars vanish when I swap talents?

Nvm found it "Used Shared Action Bars" on loadout settings

[winter vapor]

anyone else get the bug where target health just shows up as a blank space under the name?

[obsidian ruin]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/LuxthosRogueDragonflight (Luxthos's Group)

[uncut echo]

Good, fuck flamestrike

[timid cloud]

https://i.gyazo.com/3a01f95dfd08ab5c11ad4e1d9e85427a.png

[weak horizon]

how do you guys feel about luxthos vs afenars? any other good alternatives?

[sand elm]

i use afenars

i hate having to faff about with like 5 different imports to get luxthos working

[teal bloom]

there is just one import now

for luxthos weakauras

[weak horizon]

anyone else's combo points section messed up in afenar's?

[sand elm]

relog

fixes it

[weak horizon]

ty

[sand elm]

[weak horizon]

that worked like a charm

[grave ivy]

what kind of charm?

[sand elm]

had the same problem when i installed it

[rigid tartan]

I Never needed the utility or other one just the basic cp and dps cds part

Luxthos just has the better visibility for me

[balmy condor]

Buffs from November 1st Reset:
Ambush +20% -> Makes sense, we will use ambush over mutilate whenever available (except stealth garrote obviously), makes blindside better too, nice little buff

Rupture +5% -> sure, whatever

Garrote +5% -> sure, whatever

Mutilate +5% -> sure, whatever

Deathmark +15% -> it was about 0.8% dps in single target before, so it's 1% now, this is super minimal and not noticeable, maybe good in pvp?

Amp Poison +5% to envenom -> makes Amp poison more viable, good talent, I assume it works with mastery on reset as well, which means it's a really really good single target talent, you can stop pinging me about the wowhead guide trolling now thanks

Scent of blood cap from 5 targets to 8 targets -> good start to helping carnage and sin aoe in general, but it's a small step in a long journey. Carnage and M+ in general will need more love honestly considering the big hit to single target damage we need to take in order to go down the carnage route. The pay-off just isn't there yet, and while this helps, it's a fairly minor change in the grand scheme

[sand elm]

same for the most part. cp, energy, core and big cds is all i really need. i dont need to track utility that much

[sand elm]

i did think the deathmark buff was weird

seems like i had a similar thought. the buffs dont seem like theyll change much

[thick sable]

So do we think duskwalkers was fixed?

[night delta]

I was told whispyr knows about the duskwalker status 24/7

[dense yoke]

LMAO

[night delta]

To answer the question, such a fix would most likely be adressed in a post imo

So no mentions -> likely not fixed yet

[sand elm]

i imagine itd be in a separate hotfixes post

[glacial bough]

ENHANCE ROFFFLFLLLLLLL absolutely smacked god damn

[strange python]

Buffs???

[surreal nova]

rip enhance twink dreams

[spice spire]

Pins

[fleet anchor]

It does not currently

But it probably should

Also doesn't affect Dreadblades for a similar reason (think they are in the same family flag)

[teal snow]

Is Amp poison worth using over Deadly?

[sand elm]

at 70

[balmy condor]

if the mastery bug gets fixed, definitely, yes

single target amp poison is looking pretty tasty

[regal sable]

oh I should ask, in DTB aoe is amp deadly better than instant deadly?

[sand elm]

doesnt seem like it was

that nor dusk are in the hotfix list

but we do learn crippling poison at level 10 now

which is the most important thing

[balmy condor]

no

I mean yes

but no

talenting into amp is obviously a wasted point in aoe

so that's worse

but directly comparing the poisons, they are identical, or slightly better to amp

because all poisons do the same instant damage

deadly poison is instant poison + a dot

amp poison is instant poison + envenom buff

so if you were to use amp poison, and not envenom, it would be identical to instant poison

[balmy condor]

bugs miss the hotfix list all the time

I'm hopeful

[sand elm]

yeh can always hope

[regal sable]

so pathing to PB DTB would be through TtK?

[balmy condor]

for raw aoe, yeh prolly

for dungeons kinda depends how much you want that envenom dam for bosses and stuff I guess

[fleet anchor]

Not actually sure it's worth tbh

[balmy condor]

it's a good single target talent that's pretty much worthless in aoe vs a trash single target talent that's slightly better in aoe

[fleet anchor]

TtK is kinda crap

[balmy condor]

ttk is still shit though

yeah

[regal sable]

If amp is instant + env buff I figured that tab targeting envenoms in aoe (5-6 targets) with poison bomb would be more value

[balmy condor]

yeah but is it enough value to actually do that?

questionable

like yes you're going to envenom and get poison bomb and that's damage

but it's unknown right now how important that actually is

[fleet anchor]

imo once Mastery gets fixed Amp will be marginally better than TtK

If trying to get to PB for AoE

[strange python]

Imagine if the mastery made the emvenom buff higher

From amp

That be kinda nuts

[balmy condor]

yeah cause that's just double dipping mastery :P

[regal sable]

the question boils down to
is 2 seconds of 30% bonus poison for 2 lethal poisons better than however many buffed envenoms you'll press in multi target

on 4-5 targets, id maybe lean towards amp because bleed maintenance isn't really an issue, but on any more than that you'd be rupturing more and envenoming less

especially if you're skipping ic

and as whispyr said boss dmg is also a factor

hard to say

[fleet anchor]

Most of the 2s extensions get wasted due to the cadence of Envenom usage

TtK doesn't really increase Envenom buff uptime that much in dungeon situations

At least not that I have seen

[regal sable]

ye its very minor uptime increase

id lean towards amp just because bosses exist at this point

[oblique jackal]

BUFFS !!

BUFFFS 😍😍😍

[tawdry radish]

man the alacrity change is so weird

what would make them do that

[worn panther]

Im at 4cp with no 1pt builders available, should I still mut with 44% crit chance and eoc

[balmy condor]

you have a max of 5cp?

[worn panther]

6

[balmy condor]

then you mut

[worn panther]

DS

I was but figured I was wasting a fuckton of cp

Thanks for clarifying

[balmy condor]

you generate until you're at max-1

if you have a max of 6, and you're not at 5, you press mut

[worn panther]

Just started playing rogue since Legion Assass after maining warrior the whole xpac some stuff to iron out but it's fun

[oblique jackal]

Tbh, the buffs and nerfs were solid

[worn panther]

All I know is kingsbane kinda slaps

[strange python]

is there a place to view logs of rouges

wanted to see a dmg breakdown

[worn panther]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/29/#boss=2542&class=Rogue&spec=Assassination

Change rogue spec and boss at the top

Click on some people and drill down to the rogue U want

[strange python]

thank you

[coral agate]

Duskwalkers does not currently work on Deathmark. This will be hotfixed in at a later date. Play Deathly instead

Has this been fixed yet?

[balmy condor]

ask tomorrow

[coral agate]

Haha ok - fair

[balmy condor]

also you can rest assured I'll update the pin if it does get fixed :P

people didn't let me go 10 minutes after the buff announcement without making a pin

[royal lantern]

isnt making pins what we pay you for?

[coral agate]

I've been a smidge sick due to sinuses but am I reading that right? Crimsons Tempest looks like it'll be pretty damned strong

[balmy condor]

you guys pay me?

[balmy condor]

I mean the instant damage got buffed a ton but it was fairly weak

so now the instant damage is fine

poison bomb and amp buffing envenom is way more impactful

[royal lantern]

not anymore, your Pin updates are to slow

[timid cloud]

The millisecond I saw it, bam, posted.

Couldn’t believe my eyes.

[balmy condor]

I was actually like 3 minutes late too

mid boss fight in maplestory when my stream chat started yelling

BUFFS! CHECK BUFFS!

3 pings in discord

I'm like can I kill the boss pls

[royal lantern]

back to work sim slave

[fleet anchor]

We need a professional opinion "are buffs good? yay or nay?"

[spice spire]

Mister simmer

Is buff good

[fleet anchor]

"They buffed almost everything by 5% how much is my damage going to go up?!"

[spice spire]

Did sin wonnered

[balmy condor]

tomorrow is the day I scream at raidbots

for deciding CT vs Envenom

[balmy condor]

in ways I don't like

[spice spire]

Ct gonna win

Whíspyr gonna mald

[royal lantern]

cease

[spice spire]

I do a little bit of chuckling

CT Exsang is where I draw the line tho

[fleet anchor]

I ran a sim in my head and Assassination gained around 1.95% damage

[spice spire]

Unreal

Koji has become one with raidbots

[fleet anchor]

For prepatch that is

Would be higher for beta

Less dagger damage 😛

[spice spire]

[oak sky]

Buffs good or good

[royal lantern]

good but not good

[oak sky]

ok but are they like feldrake for free good or?

[royal lantern]

G O O D

[hollow river]

Yes.

[timid cloud]

Up is good.

Down is bad.

https://tenor.com/view/big-brain-meme-markiplier-movie-thiccbraintime-gif-19517627

[next arch]

Silly question, if we mutilate and hit 4, do we finisher or mutilate again?

[balmy condor]

Do you have 5cp max or 6

[next arch]

Oh mb, 6 max.

[balmy condor]

Mut

Max-1

If you have max 5, and you’re at 4, you finish

If you have max 6 and you’re at 5, finish

[next arch]

ok, that makes sense, thanks :)

[balmy condor]

Np

[subtle tundra]

Wow buffs 😴🛏️

[peak basin]

Is it expected to be tabbing a ton in M+ still? I was expecting indiscriminate carnage to help but it’s not up every pack.

[warm urchin]

what buff to we take in junkyard?

haste or crit?

[visual hemlock]

always haste

[warm urchin]

aw snap even in every other dungeon?

ive been taking crit lol

[visual hemlock]

no only in junkyard

[balmy condor]

Yes

Multi-dotting is a core aspect of sin’s aoe

[strange python]

Plz Mr whispyr

Make sin>outlaw in raids for df

[sharp falcon]

lol, god bless

[subtle tundra]

Lhaha aoe tier

Won't happen

[balmy condor]

what do you think I'm capable of

the most I can do is help my gf with calculus homework

[strange python]

Miracles, magic, and being cute?

[balmy condor]

gonna be like an 8 hour stream tomorrow of me finding 0 gains for dslice

and I'm gonna be crying shitting throwing up and cumming

all at the same time

[steel ridge]

Dusk fix not in hotfix Patchnotes 😦

[balmy condor]

I guarantee you it's gonna be like 6:30pm, put down the sims, chill with some maplestory

"did you try spamming CT?"

[steel ridge]

[subtle tundra]

Means I joined the stream

[fallen arch]

Looking forward to this

[sharp falcon]

twitch ban speedrun any%

[balmy condor]

is it ToS if i turn the camera off and change to asmr category

[sharp falcon]

idk, im not the police

[balmy condor]

[oak sky]

[balmy condor]

only the police needs to say they're not the police

[oak sky]

what if you ask them directly

think about it

its in the constitution

[balmy condor]

the same one nick cage keeps stealing

or using for a map

or whatever he does in that movie

I haven't seen it

[oak sky]

he steals the declaration of independence

we watched it in my 8th grade history class on the last day of school

on a tiny CRT

mmm not tiny

[balmy condor]

that's the same thing

[regal sable]

8 hour dslice stream

pog

[subtle tundra]

Hi how much better is assa than outlaw now

🤓

[regal sable]

just had a great day

checked wowhead saw outlaw nerfs and i realised it was only a dream

[rigid tartan]

My first thought looking at the numbers was: outlaw is still ahead on single target by quite a lot and assa and sub still down in the gutter in terms of comparable strength to other classes

[jovial spear]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/LuxthosRogueDragonflight (Luxthos's Group)

[chilly cave]

is Scent of Blood still bugged?

[timid cloud]

Real funny, Honk!

[balmy condor]

neigh

[lavish isle]

dumb question i bet, but how can this person cast garrote without have vanished before?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/WAJFpHMBNQqKDgyj#fight=44&type=casts&source=4&view=timeline&by=source

[chilly cave]

Nice

[balmy condor]

he started in stealth

[lavish isle]

for example at the 0:36 mark

[balmy condor]

oh

well that's just a normal garrote

[lavish isle]

garrote cannot be cast outside of vanish/stealth right? or am i missing something?

[balmy condor]

it can

[spice spire]

Just returning from a while ago?

[balmy condor]

6 second cooldown

[lavish isle]

with which talent?

[balmy condor]

baseline

[spice spire]

Base ability

[lavish isle]

hmm

[balmy condor]

that's just how the ability works

[chilly cave]

This guys mind is about to be blown

[clear cairn]

I couldn’t find any notes in the recent hotfix/patch notes about our legendary that’s currently bugged for reducing Vendetta CD. Does anyone know if it’s fixed for Deathmark now?

[balmy condor]

wrath players

[lavish isle]

i mean i havent played in a very long time

[spice spire]

(When I returned in bfa, I had the same epiphany it’s why I asked )

[lavish isle]

nah i played in s1 of shadowlands but as sub

i said it was a dumb question 😛

[balmy condor]

you get the honor of testing it tomorrow when servers come up and can report back as the WORLD FIRST GAME TESTER

how about that

[spice spire]

Back in my day you had to be stealthier

[lavish isle]

^

😄

[spice spire]

But yeah, you can (and should) maintain it now. For the energy regen

[chilly cave]

I hope they fix it. Im enjoying playing around with sin builds in m+ atm

[lavish isle]

https://tenor.com/view/cartoon-sad-sitting-in-corner-gif-10681093

thanks for the info

[spice spire]

No worries homie, we all learn somehow

[subtle tundra]

wait

so they did changes to assa

and nothing about exsang being deleted?

[balmy condor]

the dooming is strong with you varas

[subtle tundra]

yea i dont think assa is for me this tier atleast

perhaps some sub gaming

[chilly cave]

Its deleted from my brain after BFA

[subtle tundra]

not when its 3% better than anything else you can take

[gusty kestrel]

but how can you show the world how big you are if u dont push keys as assa

doing actual high keys on beta after all

[subtle tundra]

i choose to have fun by not playing exsang

[regal sable]

i choose to play exsang

[hollow barn]

Exsang was fun at the start of bfa with shrouded suffocation

Havnt given it a real go yet on live

[celest drift]

Man this tuning is so underwhelming

[plain onyx]

I want poison bomb back..

[balmy condor]

it is back

[steel ridge]

Did you expect more than 5%?

[low quartz]

Shrouded suffocation over Bonespear? Thoughts?

In a M+ build

[celest drift]

Dunno, expecting something a little more spicy i guess

[next edge]

Yeah it's not a +50% dmg to everything

[next edge]

You know its available on talent tree right

[celest drift]

In the end its still prepatch so its not too important, will have to see at lvl70 how its unfold

[celest drift]

Did i say that ?🥴

[next edge]

What did you expect then

[plain onyx]

yeah but i want it to be the official one to pick, I couldve picked it in the previous season but CT was more op

[chilly cave]

Im happy to run CT and PB

[abstract kayak]

Hey guys ! Duskwalker is working atm?

[chilly cave]

Hopefully tomorrow

[abstract kayak]

😦

[abstract kayak]

Thanks

[balmy condor]

it will be one of the strongest picks in dragonflight

[next edge]

You know you can pick it regardless right?

Nobody forces you to play something you don't want to

[hardy dagger]

Yall se the enhance nerf

[next edge]

WW nerf is even bigger

And they complain

[celest drift]

just something to be at least on par with our fellow outlaw rogue in ST, don't think we make the cut yet

[strange python]

Bruh this bullshittery argument needs to die

[next edge]

Why? It's not false

[strange python]

You don't have to breathe if you don't want to, too. But most of us assume that "you have to breathe" implies "if you want to live"

CT was the pick for anyone who wanted to be competitive.

[next edge]

What the fuck is that argument

[strange python]

Every single reasonable person assumes "I have to pick CT" means "to be competitive"

This isn't r/wow, you can safely assume people talking about talent choices here aren't trying to do LFR

[next edge]

You would be really surprised

About how many people who brings this arguments

Play HC content as most

[strange python]

I am really surprised that people are still trying to do the pedantic "ackshually" about picking talents

[next edge]

I think it's even more pedantic to try to make it look like a single talent choice will make you not competitive

[strange python]

That's not what pedantic means.

[next edge]

Saying the truth (you can play whatever you want) isn't either

[strange python]

You dont have to brush your teeth. But if you wanna have teeth you do.

You don't have to go outside. But if you want a life you do.

You don't have to eat vegetables and fruits, but if you wanna live past 60 you do

[next edge]

Hope you realise how bad those arguments are

[strange python]

"I didn't like taking CT" should come with the automatic assumption that "to be competitive" is the unsaid half of the sentence because the rest of us all understood the implication

It's the exact same logic. You're choosing to ignore the obvious context so you can be a Karen.

[next edge]

Yeah mate I'm a Karen

[strange python]

Whatever. The varas koffing block list grows.

[next edge]

That was enough of a conversation, have a nice day 🙂

[marble hemlock]

[next edge]

@subtle tundra what did you do 😦

Imagine blocking someone because has another opinion than yours

Then tell other people they are a Karen

[hybrid portal]

actually agree to this

[next edge]

People is so salty these days, might need a bit of tea and relax

[subtle tundra]

I spit facts

[next edge]

Have you block you then

[oblique wasp]

what is going on here mates?

[regal sable]

plotting how we r gonna delete outlaw rogue

hby

[oblique wasp]

well .. I am outlaw right now to be fair 😄

[regal sable]

goodbye

[feral rivet]

WW nerf is 13-15% something and enhance is 25%

[oblique wasp]

why is it bad tho? Outlaw was in abysmal state for so long ...

[regal sable]

you will not be missed

[oblique wasp]

I mean ... as long as it is rogue I will enjoy it, even if I have new spec to water the flowers and bake the cupcakes

[hardy dagger]

All rogue specs are cool

[timid cloud]

Outlaw was fine for multiple tiers, wat.

[regal sable]

#assassination message

[oblique wasp]

exactly ... in SL I played all three specs and I lived the life

[next edge]

All rogue specs feel amazing

[strange python]

Outlaws been the best of the three specs on the whole for quite some time.

[next edge]

And really cool to play

[timid cloud]

Was the best in CN, did fine in SOD with gems, & was mid in SOTFO, even better when they got buffed.

[oblique wasp]

I thought it was S3 and this S4 + prepatch no?

[timid cloud]

Refer to what I just said.

[strange python]

Sorta. They were the only viable spec in CN until Sin hotfixes, and I think even then outlaw was better. Outlaw was at worst very good in SoD, and same in sepulcher, but became the best after buffs. It was the best m+ spec the entire expansion

Also if you go back to BFA, outlaw is always, at worst, mediocre compared to sin/sub, but when outlaw is strong, sin or sub are likely to be dog water garbage

[timid cloud]

Outlaw ruled over BFA.

[regal sable]

except in early BFA when keys were running 3 outlaw rogues

[strange python]

Tbh I'm very sick of outlaw being the hero spec.

[timid cloud]

For so long, actually.

That’s one of the reasons they implemented the No class stacking in MDI.

[strange python]

Yeah, I moreso guess I had 8.3 sin in my memory. And I vaguely remember sin being strong in bod

[marble hemlock]

Early BFA didn't have wits yet, so outlaw was trash

[timid cloud]

Oh true.

They got that in BOD.

When everyone got 2 Azerites.

[hardy dagger]

S3 had sub being good early on and then assa taking over later on

[marble hemlock]

Assa dominated BFA raids, outlaw was good in m+ but not that much better than assa, if at all

[next edge]

Outlaw will be by design better because Blade Flurry

[timid cloud]

It was simple to play though.

[strange python]

That doesn't sound right but I trust you

[next edge]

Most of times

[marble hemlock]

Yeah, outlaw was a lot easier to do well with in m+ because wits was stupid

[timid cloud]

That’s why Blizzard was so careful about tuning SL Outlaw.

They didn’t want another BFA m+ incident for them.

[next edge]

The thing is

Outlaw sacrifices 2-3 points to do AoE but maintains a rly high ST

While the other two specs need to sacrifice way more

[strange python]

Quick look at logs shows that outlaw was way stronger for nya pre-nerfs; competitive in EP, and the top (but close) in BoD

[next edge]

Sin is a clear example

In DF, for example, with such a heavy cleave raid

If all three specs are in line on dps

Outlaw will perform better most likely

Because it doesn't need to sacrifice anything + BF

While Sin needs to decide whether do better AoE or ST

[strange python]

Actually the logs and m+ context really just make it look like outlaw is the favorite dev spec.

[next edge]

So it comes down more on design rather than tuning

[timid cloud]

It was good deep into corruption too.

Because double ra-den fistys

[strange python]

I'm just tired of outlaw being the default good spec

[oblique jackal]

They should just make every class have 2 specs

3 is way too much f

[marble hemlock]

No one cares about logs after 10 weeks of farm. Assa was the much better progression spec in all raids except uldir.

[timid cloud]

Or Ra-Den then Diver’s Folly for that JUICY hit.

[next edge]

Agree

[strange python]

I was looking at what would have been largely prog logs.

[next edge]

And in SL outlaw wasn't the only spec

Specially in raid

[oblique wasp]

besides, I understand that DPS and so on and so for but there are other perspectives to class I believe ... I always felt like outlaw having the smallest impact on my group etc

[timid cloud]

I’m trying to remember if I saw a lot of Proglaws.

[marble hemlock]

Then idk what you were looking at, but the amount of people progressing any of the tiers as outlaw was very very small

[strange python]

That may be so, but that could be due to faulty theory crafting, ease of execution, dislike for the spec, etc.

[timid cloud]

I could see it being kinda niche for some EP fights like orgoza.

[marble hemlock]

It was basically just Loktark doing his thing

[timid cloud]

Because there was a lot of cheese logs for that fight that never got beaten.

[marble hemlock]

Or, ya know, it just being a bad progression spec due to high DPS variance, no major DPS cooldowns leading to a bad progression damage pattern, and the class itself offering no utility to the raid

[timid cloud]

I remember it only on Orgozoa being nuts nuts.

[next edge]

Nono, it's devs fav spec

[marble hemlock]

2min CDs were the kings of BfA prog, and that just happened to be what Assa was really good at

[timid cloud]

Sin was so gassed for Za’cool from High School.

[strange python]

I think the variance in BFA was a bit oversold and wasn't as high as you might expect, but I'll admit I don't have the old Sims and ranges handy. But it's not like sin/sub are bringing utility either, and the damage patterns would require specific push/damage timings to matter.

[marble hemlock]

"sry didnt break jaina wall cause didnt get good rolls/ss procs" wasnt really an acceptable issue

[timid cloud]

Don’t put that evil on me.

Vendetta the wall or die.

[marble hemlock]

SS proc variance was always the bane of the spec, even more so in an en expansion where you would have to spend CP on RtB and RtB buffs being more unbalanced than they are in SL. Also, no CTO yet.

[strange python]

I'm more inclined to believe that the prevalence of specs was due to player error (like everyone thinking obe with BSDS was gonna be meta in sanctum......), rather than that the logs are misleading/inaccurate.

[timid cloud]

I think BS/DS was fine for SOD.

[strange python]

And I do think that the data paints a pretty clear picture of outlaw being quite a bit better as an overall spec for the last four years

[marble hemlock]

You're free to disagree based on looking at year old logs, I'm just telling you that I know no one who would've even considered playing Outlaw for anything other than maybe Orgozoa when it was actually relevant content

[timid cloud]

Just Vigor felt better & stuff.

[marble hemlock]

Have you played during that time-frame and can recall/have your own experience of each specs performance during progression?

[timid cloud]

I did that raid so much I think I tried both, with Unholy/Blood/Frost Gems.

[strange python]

Again, that could just as easily be up to player error or preference

[marble hemlock]

Or are you just making assumptions based on a bunch of logs

[strange python]

I did play then.

[marble hemlock]

Yeah, I'm sure all the top 50 worlds guild rogues are trash

Especially cause Outlaw was soooooo difficult in BfA

[strange python]

I didn't say they were trash.

Top 50 players get shit wrong all the time. It's the nature of a complex game.

[marble hemlock]

Outlaw was better in BfA
No one played Outlaw in Prog
Yeah well it was still better, people just played it wrong

[next edge]

This guy

[strange python]

That's some pretty generous misreading of what I've been saying.

[marble hemlock]

I'm also not even sure what logs you've been looking at, but the actual DPS hungry fights like Ashvane, Azshara, Uunat etc. Assa is clearly ahead of Outlaw

[strange python]

You're choosing to put your faith in what a handful of players chose to do in prog, I'm choosing to put my faith in the available data - imperfect as it may be. I don't think either of those is remotely as ridiculous as you're trying to paint.

[next edge]

Bro what

[marble hemlock]

No, I'm making an informed statement based on my own experience, the experience of others, historical data from both the discord and plainly looking at the logs which don't show Outlaw ahead on any fight other than the ones where you could cleave.

[next edge]

Oh wait he blocked me

Seli is next

[timid cloud]

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/JqruK/3667070d32.png
http://puu.sh/JqruM/57ebcdb3a6.png

is this the "outlaw supremacy"?

[oblique wasp]

uhm guys I didn't mean to start an all out carnage in the chat here 😄

[strange python]

When you're segmenting data into specific instances that fit one style over another in a discussion that's inherently focused on a preponderance of data over time, I genuinely don't know how you can make that claim seriously

[oblique wasp]

so I guess I should apologize ...

[timid cloud]

I remember when we had like 20 second Ashvane kills.

[strange python]

The thought wasn't: is outlaw better at priority damage in EP. It was: outlaw has been the clear best spec among the three over the last 6 tiers on the whole.

[timid cloud]

Bet your sweet bippy I was playing 3SS

[marble hemlock]

Because the only fights where Outlaw "performs" better on an overall metric, are the ones with adds. Out of those fights, only Orgozoa qualifies as a fight where that DPS actually mattered. Zaqul Outlaw parsed well, because it did a lot of AoE. Was it important AoE? Fuck no, because you DPS stopped 30 seconds anyway before pushing P2, so how quickly the adds died was as unimportant as it gets.

[strange python]

When you have to make this many specified qualifications it kind of neuters the entire argument when comparing a preponderance of data.

[next edge]

Lmao

Is he even being serious

[timid cloud]

I mean you also have to take it with a grain of salt though. Those logs are hella farm logs.

[marble hemlock]

You mean when I make arguments that are specific to a progress environment, while discussing progress viability?

Yeah, I'm really cherry picking here

[timid cloud]

Given enough time, the data can still be wrong from what the actual truth is.

[next edge]

Like Seli is using prog arguments and he brings farm

[strange python]

I mean progression wasn't originally stated, but even still, no, that's obviously not what I said.

[marble hemlock]

I'm applying the data to the situations at hand. You're just looking at the data and say "but muh logs"

[next edge]

To deny Seli arguments

[marble hemlock]

Even when looking at ALL fights

http://puu.sh/Jqrvx/c2b92accc2.png

Outlaw really looking superior init

[strange python]

I could just as easily say you're just looking for fights to chery pick, I'm not super sure why resorting to strawmen is seemingly your tactic here

But clearly something pissed you off and this isn't remotely productive anymore

[next edge]

I'm loosing the argument = seli you're mad by bringing the data 😦 = conversation off

Love it

[marble hemlock]

It's not productive because you're not arguing in good faith, as is evident by just throwing the "lmao strawman" argument around - I'm not sure you know what that term even means.

You stated, very clearly, that Outlaw was better for 4+ years now, including all of BfA. That's wrong. I'm sorry I had to call you out on that, but I don't like misinformation like that.

[strange python]

I could just as easily say you're arguing in bad faith and selling bad data.

[next edge]

[marble hemlock]

This is pretty unambiguous, is it not?

[strange python]

You're cherry picking fights, you're selecting for boss damage as though raids are patchwork boss rushes, and you're pulling 8.1.5 data

[marble hemlock]

And it's not supported by data.

[strange python]

It is.

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/Jqrwj/1e0a1e18d0.png

See, I was waiting for that "8.1.5" argument

Cause its still better in 8.1

I did that on purpose, btw

[strange python]

That's still damage to bosses.

You ignored the other half of what I said

So you could strawman again

[marble hemlock]

So, which fight in BoD had adds that mattered?

[strange python]

My point was that you're taking a very narrow approach to the data and ignoring everything that doesn't conform to your argument.

[marble hemlock]

Champion of light?

[timid cloud]

Ew

[uncut echo]

Why does this matter?

[empty hinge]

I miss BoD

[marble hemlock]

I'm not taking a narrow approach. I'm applying the data to the actual fights. You're the one tunnelvisioning on the overall performance as if its the gold standard of data

[strange python]

But that's literally a narrow approach what

[timid cloud]

Because it can be classified as misinformation, which is what Seli said.

It’s a huge blanket term.

[marble hemlock]

Applying the data to the situation at hand is a much more accurate portrayal, than just throwing the wide net of "overall dps" onto the raid and expressing a statement like "Outlaw was the better progression spec" at the end of it

[strange python]

The point and the scope was about a general-level and you're trying to segment it to fit a narrative, which is *inherently" antithetical to the original comment that you took issue with.

No one said progression until you said progression. And that's its own entire mess because half the logs you seem relevant for that are private.

[marble hemlock]

Any AoE spec will always be better in overall raid DPS comparisons, because the fights where they do get to use that AoE will distort the results.

That doesn't mean they're the better progression specs. The way bosses are played matters. The location of the bosses matters. A fight like Sylvanas is much more meaningful for cleave/AoE specs, than a fight like Champions of Light

[strange python]

That's just not true.

[marble hemlock]

No one serious ever looks at overall DPS in logs

[uncut echo]

Listening to people attempt to argue and then get shit on by someone with actual logical deduction skills is fucking comical

[strange python]

That's just objectively not accurate.

[uncut echo]

It literally is

[empty hinge]

Opulence is good add fight

[marble hemlock]

You mean all those rogues, of which I know most of them personally, none of which played Outlaw?

[strange python]

I mean people will always default to siding with green names. It's internet culture. I do data analysis for a living and I'm very very good at it.

[empty hinge]

[strange python]

This is a straight up logical fallacy

[uncut echo]

For anyone who even remotely raids serious, muh number high does not correlate to any serious data extrapolation

[timid cloud]

Errr, I mean at that point you could say Stormwall Blockade has “important” adds.

[uncut echo]

I'M NOT SIDING WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG

Lmfaoooooo

[strange python]

I don't care if you think I'm wrong.

[next edge]

He's still trying to argument

After getting demolished over and over

[uncut echo]

Screaming like a petulant child doesn't get you anywhere

[strange python]

My work is published and peer reviewed. Trying to spew personal insults because you're upset while I've done nothing but try to have a conversation is some pretty egregious mod abuse.

[regal sable]

hes not a mod

kekw

[next edge]

He blocked me for not agreeing

[strange python]

Obviously know what I meant bud

He has authority here and knows he can get away with personal insults.

[uncut echo]

"I look at overall dps because I wanna pad"

[strange python]

[marble hemlock]

I mean, you've consistently been hostile in this discussion, trying to discredit my arguments not based on facts but simply "but youre wrong" or saying that I'm too narrow in my analysis. I don't know how applying a wide array of data to a specific situation like progress raiding could be considered less relevant data, but you do you.

[uncut echo]

"No, don't look there!!!!!!!!!!!, i was wrong there!!!!"

Go to bed, don't you need to do data analysis soon

[strange python]

Disagreeing with you when you strawman me isn't being hostile. I haven't been hostile at all other than to disagree with your framing.

[regal sable]

this is where we blow his mind

higher numbers in logs are better, not lower

[strange python]

And your argument for flouting the rules and spewing personal insults is "you disagreed with me"?

[full rampart]

[timid cloud]

Beta Varas is typing…

[subtle tundra]

I legit only care about m+ cause raid is only 10h a week and after prog is over who cares about it

[slim sable]

personal insults chill my dude

[subtle tundra]

So if assa is bad in m+ then assa is bad in my eyes

[strange python]

If I said the same back to him I'd have been muted/banned.

[empty hinge]

Stay strong king

[uncut echo]

"I was bested in a logical argument, I've been personally insulted"

[marble hemlock]

if you make statements like "Outlaw was better most of BfA", then outside of Mythic + that's just factually wrong.

It's factually wrong based on the preference most (>90%) of progression/Hall of Fame raiders had, but according to you thats just them making bad choices.

It's factually wrong because all the last 2-3 fights each tier were heavily tailored for single-target DPS; which Assa was just better at based on Damage to Bosses logs and data. But apparently that's me making the discussiong "too narrow".

It's factually wrong because when looking at the hardest bosses each tier, Outlaw is not ahead of Assa in a single one of those fights. But apparently that once again isn't worth dissecting in an argument about progression viability.

All you have are "overall dps" performance logs, in which Outlaw is barely ahead.

[uncut echo]

You dropped this 👑

[strange python]

You're saying "factually wrong because" but your reasoning is still incredibly subjective.

[marble hemlock]

So using data is subjective?

Aight.

[next edge]

Only yours

[strange python]

And you, still, shot a personal insult at me for disagreeing with you.

[next edge]

His data isnt

[marble hemlock]

True

[uncut echo]

Sel stop feeding into this mate

[timid cloud]

I mean…technically that is the correct response out of nearly every human being, when your ideals are questioned, it is a knee-jerk reaction to legit get defensive…(not to take any side here or insult, this is for informational purposes only.)

[strange python]

[chrome night]

subjective based on what exactly ? seems like context is given here

[strange python]

Literally the first thing a stats professor would tell you is that all data and stats are subjective because they require context, yes.

[regal sable]

bro the logs said assa is doing more dmg but thats just ur opinion bro the logs are subjective

[strange python]

Boss damage logs. For one tier.

That's a segmentation and contextualization of data.

[marble hemlock]

Want me to post all the others?

I didn't wanna post 20 pictures

[chrome night]

yes but its the segment that matters ?

[marble hemlock]

But ya know

I could