#tc-research

1 messages · Page 43 of 1

lost echo
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hence why itd be really useless to sim with

lavish zenith
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right but we're not talking about last season we're talking about this season

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for obvious reasons flat 16% crit is different than a 30% damage buff that lasts for 2 minutes out of 40 where u may or may not have cds

hearty olive
# lavish zenith for obvious reasons flat 16% crit is different than a 30% damage buff that lasts...

how do you determine when you get it ? how much of the dungeon you do with it etc ? In practice you can work around those and modify these parameters from one run to another.

Though I agree that being able to sim the anima powers would be really nice. Maybe instead of 16% crit a list of the anima powers per miniboss and we pick 1 one of each to sim ? That would be really cool. Also seems better than just slamming 16% crit on a dslice

lavish zenith
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well they're positioned differently depending on dungeon, but the prevalent strategy thus far is to rush to them as fast as possible so you maintain the highest uptime of the buff for the majority of the dungeon. 2 minibosses give damage bonus powers, 2 minibosses give damage reduction powers. generally u skip the damage reduction powers (which empowers the last boss), cuz theyre a waste of time and too slow.

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also, the powers only give the bonus stats when youre above 70% hp. so in certain dungeons you might opt for 1 8% power and 1 non-8% power if ur health fluctuates regularly (think a dungeon like theater or plaguefall). an example of a dungeon where u never have ur health drop even on like a 27 would be like spires or mists etc

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certain classes do insanely well w these powers, like ele sham and frost mage, and they make a meaningful difference to the power of a class, which is why i think itd be beneficial for us to have that information

lean talon
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dslice sims arent really there to compare different specs with each other and draw conclusions which is better for dungeons. the stat powers can still be relevant for gearing choices so i can see it being somewhat useful

merry cloud
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Neither is patchwerk stacked chart, it is highly discouraged to use it to draw conclusions about any specs ranking

regal agate
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I think you could do that if you spend the time going over each spec and fix issues/diffrences in the sim

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but simc is in general supposed to be a tool to support you and help you evaluate your decisions.
You still need to make conclusions yourself from the data it provides

knotty oriole
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I do think as Vaughn mentioned that it could still be beneficial to know how this interacts with gear/Soulbinds/legendaries or which options are better for our specs, etc. it could definitely be potentially relevant to model.

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I'm mostly sold on the concept, it's just a matter of being able to handle it correctly and the focus for SimC has been getting 9.1 general launch stuff up and running first.

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But I think the dungeon powers are something that will come eventually

maiden tangle
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is there a tool or tutorial for creating item strings? I have upgradable items I'd like to sim at their higher ilvls to see if they're worth upgrading.

noble pendant
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that's what droptimizer is for

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if you want to learn how simulationcraft builds items, it would be documented here

maiden tangle
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ty!

maiden tangle
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Please let me know if there's a better place to ask these questions (simc discord?)

To clarify btw, droptimizer doesn't have the Korthia world drops (Shardhide equipment, etc).

I've tried modifying the items in my bags like the following but it just puts it at ilvl 200. I've also tried upgrade=5, etc. It just isn't working as I'd assume. I wanted to use this output in the Top Gear simulation

# Shardhide Leather Bracers (220)
# wrist=,id=185867,ilvl=220
noble pendant
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the command is ilevel not ilvl

maiden tangle
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omg. facepalm that works yeah ty

maiden cargo
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small change, but giving KS a higher priority than flagellation is a gain for some sim styles like mult-target patchwerk (particularly at low duration) while being margin of error for dslice, hac, or ST

note that this is without MA, there is no difference with MA
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/x6yejWkniC4rYMBztcTJEF

image0.png
maiden cargo
civic mango
maiden cargo
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Yeah if they happen to both be off cd

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And in aoe

civic mango
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Have you tested a ks if=!flagellation condition? Spending 2 seconds not generating or spending combo points during the flag window seems pretty bad

maiden cargo
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Yeah, I couldn’t get a noticeable gain but it’s logically sound, I only tested dslice though

civic mango
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flag buff caps out at 30 right?

maiden cargo
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yep

civic mango
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maybe a condition like if flag stacks are <30

knotty oriole
rain night
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Any idea why this isn't working for the crafted necklaces? I thought i did it by looking at the documentation

# Deadly Sinvyr Necklace (230)
# neck=,id=173147,ilevel=230,stats=88sta_158crit_63haste
noble pendant
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Stats doesn’t use underscores

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The crafted gear has been giving people trouble though

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Seen a lot of triple stats and missing stats and all sorts of weird stuff

rain night
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That part of the wiki must be outdated then

noble pendant
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Oh I was thinking of something else lmao my bad

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Yeah the import is fine, I’m guessing it’s crafted gear jank

rain night
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Yeah must be. I guess ill use stat weights then to determine which one to get peepochrist

noble pendant
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You’re pretty safe to just get a crit/vers for sub or a haste/crit for sin

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No point optimizing something that granular

knotty oriole
# maiden cargo small change, but giving KS a higher priority than flagellation is a gain for so...

After investigating this is likely something specific to flag itself because moving this doesn't seem to have any impact on Necro or NF DPS that I can see. (Best I could get was 0.2% at 1 minute) Seems just like edge case delay situations where some iterations are fitting in one extra use at extremely low duration.
I may put it in anyway because it's neutral everywhere else but I don't think this is of any practical meaning since it comes out as a wash in any dynamic fight style or any realistic combat length.

maiden cargo
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oh, that’s what i figured. i did not mean to imply it might be good for other covenants

plain coral
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Hey guys maybe you can help me. I have a trail about improving Sub APL by being somehow "more conservative" with ShD usage outside of Flagellation windows with Obediance legendary.

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The idea is to avoid this situation where we basically are "filling" with our best Backstab ever during the overpowered 30% versatility buff from Obediance. And rather have Shadow Dance avaiable during this time.

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Idea would be to be conservative with ShD during off-Flag SoD windows like this one where it will use 2 shadow dance during SoD. Rather use only one in this case (it requiert to delay a ShD even at >1.75 charges for 2-3sec)
https://i.imgur.com/12KzGVP.png

Imgur
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So if you find a way to achieve it, trying but no sucess, I can't make the APL do what I want it to do

noble pendant
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I’ve looked into forcing dances during persist, like triple dance from opener, and dances if the persist buff remains, but it showed no gains

regal agate
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same, i had no luck with being more conservative on charges (but will sooner or later look into that again)

plain coral
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best I've found is yes, neutral change or -0.1% change. But I keep seeing wierdness like this :

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like why backstab here. I guess it's the 1.75 fractional charge but it seems natural to dance a little bit sooner here

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(this is WITH my change, I still don't understand what prevent it from dancing here)

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Flagel at 2mn. It is basically dancing straight at 2:06 when Flagellation should have 10-12s cooldown remaining here. So it ends up delaying both SoD + Flag all the way to 2:23 (because of CP condition that is filled with Backstab around 2:17). It would have been much more logic to hold on ShD just a little bit more and Dance around 2:12 into flag at 2:16

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So I don't know what my change did, but it is definitely winning some damage somewhere and loosing it elsewhere.
The default APL also have this timing where it build a couple of finisher with Backstab during Flagellation_persist buff, and then enter ShD when it ends. See default APL on the report around 3:38 and 2:30

regal agate
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my best changes did get within +-0 dps but they also didn't play shd the way i wanted to

plain coral
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Yeah I'm exactly at the exact same point. Neutral change, sometime did it but keep doing wierdness that doesn't follow the rule I'd like to see

regal agate
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you could put a higher shd fractional value when the cooldown gets closer to finish so it wouldn't dance before flag comes up

plain coral
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I tried, showed up massive loss

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maybe I failed at doing it so

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this was the poor attempt I made (ended up +-0)

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Idea was to

  1. prevent using double ShadowDance in SoD outisde of Flag windows and
  2. Force using ShD during Flagel_persist if it remains >4sec
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Oh ! And I also thought about modifying the shd_threshold variable dynamically but I don't know how to do that

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Wanted to test lowering the shd_threshold to 1.25 or 1.2 if Flag_persist is remaining for at least 4sec. And increasing it a little bit if Flag cd is <12sec. But couldn't manage to manipulate this variable

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Is it possible to modify a variable locally with a if condition, and like it will just go back to default value whenever a new call to "stealth_CD_list" is made ?

merry cloud
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something like

flag_variable=if,buff.flagellation_persist.remains>=4```
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true/false are implicitly converted to 1/0 when you do arithmetics with them

regal agate
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you can just do a multiplier.
e.g. cooldown.shadow_dance.charges_fractional>=1.75+(value*cooldown.flagellation.remains<=10)

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it acts as a if because a condition is 0 if not met and 1 if sucessfull

plain coral
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I tried this, ended up with a -2.7% loss

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I mean, that's not exactly what I did. I tried with value*buff.flagellation_persist.remains>4

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and insteed of doing the same thing I did in the ShadowDance line, it broke everything

regal agate
plain coral
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On your report you use Flag outside of SoD/SD windows on pull

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but the default APL seems to ShD > build to 5 > SoD > Flag

regal agate
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but you likely want to modify the shd condition to trigger during the persistent part of flag.
so adding something like buff.flagellation_persist.remains>=value

regal agate
plain coral
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The T27 default profile on your report also use the outdated APL ?

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because it is also doing the old opener then

merry cloud
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I presume the change is that you press SoD before Flag but that's already how it was doing it on pull

plain coral
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your condition prevent the use of Shadow_Dance on pull until SoD and Flag are up tho

merry cloud
plain coral
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Maybe allowing SD into Finisher could help. Like insteed of entering dance at 1.75, you build to 5 > finish > Build to 2.0 > Dance > Finish

regal agate
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yes, seems to be without those changes. but should be easy to fix that

plain coral
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That would not waste any dance CD and retain ShD for a couple more seconds. Even if you end up SoD + Flag during that dance, it is probably still worth it

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On my report the APL is already using the change Lorentz linked. (on yours, seems not)

regal agate
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you should be able to apply the mentioned changes to the new apl farily easy

plain coral
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yeah I did, I also added a "-1*cooldown.flagellation.up" because your condition was preventing the use of ShD at the opener

Ended up to a -0.2% insteed of -0.6

plain coral
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I don't think we can achieve what we want to achieve without breaking everything

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Maybe stilleto has a key idk, I give up for now need sleep xD

twilit granite
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@plain coral i've been playing with the triple dance stuff aswell but nah, no gain

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tried to force it with x stacks, with x remaining duration of the flag buff

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tried to delay a bit SoD

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The best sim was a 0.1% gain with deathly prepull

plain coral
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Well not necessary triple dance but at least avoiding dancin litteraly 2sec after the buff has fade

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seems really logical, but I guess there are other reason that made this not possible

narrow light
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Hey, I think a dps gain with apl optimization might be possible on assassination, using obedience.

The idea is to sync every vendetta with flags or with the vers/haste buff after flag (don't know which would lead to bigger gains).

With the cd reduction on flag per cp, we might be seeing a flag cd of around 65-70s (20-25cp used per flag).

This would delay out vendetta by 10-20s. Meaning that we would only lose a vendetta cast on some fight durations.

No idea how to implement it tho :/

knotty oriole
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The APL already syncs them when it won’t result in a potential loss of a use in the fight length

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Syncing in full lock step is not worth

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If you lose a full use it will erase the gains pretty easily

narrow light
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Hmmmm I see

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So it's covered then

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Thanks :)

knotty oriole
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Yea there are some sync variables that control testing if they will align or not without loss

lavish zenith
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one question i had idk if this has been addressed but as venthyr sin in 2t/3t wouldn't it be more efficient to delay the flag like 2-3 globals so u have full bleeds up for energy gen so u can stack flag higher comparatively? i mean u only need to hold a few globals on opener and idk intuitively it sounds right. jw if anyone looked into this. (talking abt a fight like the nine)

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maybe it only makes a meaningful difference if playing obedience idk

knotty oriole
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Seems potentially worth looking at yeah

golden briar
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smol question, does apl use meld-ambush at any point for night elf assa rogues?

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i can't check myself atm

regal agate
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should do so

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don't find it in the apl from a quick look

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possible that using it was a damage loss

golden briar
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there's almost no way, it does double the dmg of mutilate

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using it at max-2 CP also prevents mutilate "double crits" from outvaluing it

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on my rogue, ambush is 2853 dmg and mut is 1307, so even with 45% from doomblade it doesn't even come close

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but i guess the total gain over a fight is miniscule

lean talon
golden briar
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ye, assa should too

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for them garrotes 🙂

lean talon
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yep it indeed doesnt cast meld at all. even if just meld ambushing isnt a gain it should probably be added just for the sake of dungeons

knotty oriole
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Mutilate can also proc poisons twice which has to be factored in to DPET

golden briar
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well, if you're at 4cp (with deeper), pressing ambush vs mut is same energy and same CP regardless of crits

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the only difference is the potential for 2 poison procs

weary star
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I believe Koji's point is that you wouldn't intentionally set yourself up for a less optimal use when you have a better option available. Delaying the 2 globals to get to max CP normally and use a finisher so you can use a more beneficial ability with meld is likely always the play, aside from the usual "if you lose a cast" circumstance with any other CD's. As you said though, it's likely to be minor any way you cut it, and it being implemented will give us the definitive answer.

knotty oriole
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Yeah I mean there are a lot of factors here, but as we have already moved away from using Ambush during Vanish I don’t think this should be too surprising anyway. The math here isn’t always super intuitive but maybe there is some way for Ambush to find relevance. Mostly Blindside gets used for Energy purposes though and that’s been known for a while.

golden briar
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ambush during vanish is due to potential for 4CP with MA

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but meld doesn't give MA, it just replaces 1 mutilate

golden briar
weary star
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I'm saying you just don't cast meld if you are at 4 and instead build to 5-6 and use a finisher, then meld mut assuming mut is more valuable to use from meld in the first place.

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Either way, from Vaughn's response it sounds like it wasn't implemented and they will work on it, which should give us the answer. I'm not sure further discussion is required at this point until it's in.

golden briar
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why would mut have any extra value from meld?

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meld doesn't give normal stealth benefits, like MA or subterfuge

plain coral
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Especially with doomblade

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maybe not true without

golden briar
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i really need someone to explain how? other than the chance for double poison proc, ambush does double the damage of mut for same energy and same base CP (which you can play around by replacing mut at max-2 CP)... doomblade adds 45% of mut's dmg as the dot so it still shouldn't be nearly enough to cover the difference

knotty oriole
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Doomblade DoT also increases Envenom damage by 5%

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Ambush really only does 85% more damage, not double also.. at least based on direct comparison for me. 1016 vs. 1884 against a dummy. 868 more damage.
50%+Envenom (80% with Envenom up) chance to do 249 more via Deadly Poison on the 2nd hit.
457 extra damage from Doomblade DoT
Envenom has like nearly 90% uptime these days so 77% weighted chance for DP = 191 damage from poison
1016 + 457 + 191 = 1664 damage, which is only 200 damage less than Ambush

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Once you consider the marginal benefit of potential 5% bonus on some Envenoms or CPs or other procs from the second hit, that 200 damage basically disappears into nothingness

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You also have to consider if using Blindside that any Ambush cast that isn't consuming Blindside effectively costs more Energy in the long run since Ambush can't proc Blindside itself

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Every Mutilate is a 20% chance to get a free Ambush, so you could logically include 20% of an Ambush's damage into Mutilate on average

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Which is 376.8 damage

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Which is more than the base difference of ~200 above

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So while somewhat unituitive on the surface, I think the numbers make sense when you add everything up

warm rain
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what if you play without blindside, does it start to swing in the other direction?

knotty oriole
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It would still be really close since 200 damage is basically nothing, but yes Blindside actually reduces the value of raw Ambushes

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This is a big part of why it's not worth Vanish Ambushing either

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Also will depend on Maim, Mangle or Lethal Poisons conduits when running the numbers, but both of those benefit Mutilate in different ways

golden briar
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But you would still have doomblade dot up while using ambush

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It's an 8 sec dot, replacing 1 mut with ambush doesn't cause it to drop for envenom

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I do admit i didn't think of adding 20% of an ambush to mut's value

merry cloud
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doom dot is a rolling one, each mutilate adds its damage to remaining one on the target

golden briar
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i'm talking about the dot adding 5% dmg to envenom, it doesn't matter if it's from 1 mut or from 4 stacked and rolling

boreal patrol
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Also if you were going by tooltip values, Muti tooltip is about 20% too low depending on weapons because OH damage part gets halved once too much accidentally.

knotty oriole
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Especially as you are mentioning targeting a case where you were at max CP.

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Since you will do a finisher in the following attack. If you have to regen energy and there were some delays in the previous globals there is a chance the Doomblade dot would expire before the finisher.

golden briar
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i'm talking mostly about a situation where you mut to 4->meld->ambush->envenom, there's like no chance doomblade falls of there... but if what mystler says is true, i can see mut outvaluing ambush easily

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but has it even been tested in the apl? or are we just talking hypotheticals here?

knotty oriole
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I mean I gave you the numbers above why it doesn't work anyway

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What Mystler is saying is just explaining the tooltip is wrong if you didn't test this on the dummy

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My numbers are with actual dummy damage values

maiden cargo
twilit granite
knotty oriole
noble pendant
twilit granite
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Oh okay 🙂

maiden cargo
knotty oriole
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Ok sounds good, don't really see any risk to this change so I'll put it in tonight

craggy zephyr
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are the trinket buffs updated on sims?

boreal patrol
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Should be in, yup

winged iris
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Just wanted to point at the fact that the Zed unholy shard "Your helpful spells and abilities have a chance to grant your target an Unholy Aura, draining 166 health from nearby enemies every 2 sec for 10 sec." Procs on self buffs like shadow dance or S&D but the damage of the shard itself does not appear in the sims, it's not a huge upgrade (don't know how to actually sim it ^^) but still

noble pendant
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It’s got a 1 minute internal cooldown so it’s very minor usually

winged iris
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Yeah the damage is really low but like every dps is gonna play the unholy set and i was wondering how much it would bring but it doesn't show the damage or even the buff uptime on a simple quick sim

knotty oriole
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I'll take a look

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We set up Stealth and such to trigger heals procs a while ago but it could just be this one isn't set up at all

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Since so few SimC classes can take advantage

knotty oriole
plain coral
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nvm

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~0.5% of my dps on logs

knotty oriole
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Zed should be implemented in latest Nightly rebuild now

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0.5% seems like a reasonable ballpark

thorny fog
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yes it did a bit more as sub but nothing incredible it does seem to do some weird cleave where sometimes it hits harder for some reason may stack with itself sometimes

knotty oriole
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I don't think it can stack because it's got a 1 minute ICD

knotty oriole
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As a note, we found a core SimC issue that was leading to somewhat lower than expected Soulglow uptime for Kyrian. It's not worth too much, but maybe 20-40 DPS depending on gear. Should be resolved in the upcoming nightly build.

worthy thorn
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did something change else change in the sims over night? I woke up to find myself simming 400 DPS more than yesterday, all I changed in between the 2 sims was gloves o_O

noble pendant
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Shouldve already been reverted

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That was only a sim thing though

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Damage in game was the same

worthy thorn
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oops wrong

noble pendant
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Those are different legendaries

worthy thorn
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sorry

worthy thorn
noble pendant
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Gonna guess it’s this stuff @knotty oriole probably knows better whats going on

image0.png
worthy thorn
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I'll just enjoy the ride 😉

west prism
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It might be the set bonus rank increase being added to simc last night

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since you got unholy set right

worthy thorn
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yeah, maybe that's it

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that bonus is absolutely rediculous ingame as well, I got a pink and 2 orange parses last night on heroic without much effort

noble pendant
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Ah, I didn’t see gems, stupid mobile

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That’s also possible yeah

maiden cargo
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i want to investigate soulglow a bit more, have seen moments where it stays at 5 stacks even when it “refreshes”, need to log it next time

knotty oriole
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But either way there seemed to be no real trend for why it happened

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And yes, the scaling set bonuses are a bit wild atm

solar swift
regal agate
flat herald
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@regal agate i think i figured out how to do the apl for deathly opener. can double check here if you want https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fzmv7tF9mFdaL28FXDkMiH/simc

but to answer my question from yesterday it seems to still rupt early. i didn't change any other logic besides trying my best to mirror what deathly prepull would do. not saying what the apl does is the actual best, but according to this the opener would be

shb > ss > sd > ss > sod/flag > rupt, then normal rotation from there on

Raidbots
Raidbots
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hopefully this is the right channel.

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basically all i did to mirror the prepull was insert

actions.precombat+="/vanish" initial_combo_points="5" actions.precombat+=/slice_and_dice,precombat_seconds=1,if=combo_points=5

then in a later line

raid_events+=/vulnerable,cooldown=600,duration=15,multiplier=0.2

didn't change anything else

maiden cargo
knotty oriole
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I don't really see why this would be the case but I will take a look

maiden cargo
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im a mess at simming so i could have just fudged up something

knotty oriole
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Deathspike is just implemented as a simple chain_target increase to SBS so anything that happens on SBS impact should happen on the secondary target exactly the same

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But it's possible there is something odd

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Sudden Fractures uptime does seem higher on the Deathspike version. (87.2 vs 94.6) Not a ton, but then again I'm not sure that's unexpected since you'll have decent uptime even without Deathspike.

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But Blade Flurry I'll have to debug since that's harder to tell from output alone

knotty oriole
maiden cargo
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aweesome, ty as always

knotty oriole
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That seem more correct I think

maiden cargo
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oh yea

knotty oriole
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Although, as a note, I have not yet implemented the fact that refunds on cleaves are wonky

maiden cargo
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god it might be the best leggo in dslice with that number

knotty oriole
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I don't think so, it's only 8%

maiden cargo
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same profile

knotty oriole
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That's basically the same as Celerity (around 7.5% iirc) and not a potato on bosses

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This is not accounting for the fact that refunds are basically non-functional on cleaved targets

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So imo it's still pretty worthless

maiden cargo
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true, forgot it's pretty bugged atm

knotty oriole
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I need to find a way to emulate the refund bug in SimC but it's not very straightforward lol

knotty oriole
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This is with the refund bug implemented

maiden cargo
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less impactful than i thought

knotty oriole
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Well it doesn't cleave as much as before 😛

knotty oriole
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Also added it to the output

maiden cargo
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might be more reasonable now

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do you think that bug was active for old deathspike sims? pre nerf

knotty oriole
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Probably not, it was kinda specific to increasing it by 1 from 1

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And the refund bug didn't used to be a thing pre-nerf either

flat herald
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so im pretty green at this apl stuff but tryin to figure it out. earlier i was tryin to implement the deathly prepull into the apl to figure out the opener, which i did figure out

now im trying to mess with rotational logic on the opener, such as seeing if rupturing during the window is a bad idea or not. the question is how do i get the apl to recognize that the target is "vulnerable" since i'm using a raid_events+=/vulnerable command to represent the deathly buff (i couldn't figure out how to just simply apply the buff in the apl : /)

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im basically tryin to just say "hey don't rupt during the vuln window"

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was trying to add something to the end of this line but nothing was working actions.finish+=/variable,name=skip_rupture,value=master_assassin_remains>0|!talent.nightstalker.enabled&talent.dark_shadow.enabled&buff.shadow_dance.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=(5-runeforge.finality)

maiden cargo
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debuff.vulnerable.up?

flat herald
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man i was so close, didn't put the .up part lol

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thanks

maiden cargo
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np

gusty ridge
golden briar
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have any sims been done with 2 domination set bonuses (wearing cloth domination socket bracers for 6th slot)? the minor agi loss on a bracer + the 5% from armor specialisation COULD be worth the set bonus 😄

noble pendant
golden briar
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feelsbad

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i wanted to bully clothies in the guild into giving me loot

noble pendant
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Now with the rank 5 set bonuses going bananas, it might be close

golden briar
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when i unequip my bracer, i lose ~110 agi with my current gear

noble pendant
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But 5% agi and losing a dps gem, or two slots of gear

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Is pretty rough

golden briar
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oh ye, i forgot that you have to sacrifice a dps gem for it

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that is probably what offsets it the most

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except maybe in the case of sylvanas where the red gem is worthless

#

can you re-do the sim with rank 5 set bonuses just in case ? 😄

noble pendant
#

Yeah it’s kinda 4am here I’m planning on sleeping but if no one else decides to do it, I’ll go ahead and run them when I wake up

#

Haven’t checked with the new and improved gem level scaling so it’s interesting probably

golden briar
#

no rush 😄 i'm just curious in the long run

#

if i should bully clothies into trading bracers later in the tier 😄

knotty oriole
#

Think this is considered a bug that can be fixed at any point anyhow. This didn’t work on PTR as the set bonuses required your class armor type bonus to be active to work.

#

So I wouldn’t expect this to survive long term

golden briar
#

ah, sad 😦

lavish zenith
#

idk if this has been discussed, but had this thought the other day (potentially not applicable to the sim depending on how well it pools for abilities coming off cd in x seconds). anyways, sometimes as sub ur on 27-28 stacks of flag and 3-4 cps with 0.5s of the first half of flag left. u could choose to finish on 3-4 to get to 30 stacks (reducing cd by ~3s and 1.5% more dam), or just go to 6 and not get to 30 stacks. this has happened a few times during painsmith prog playing tornado if i don't pre pool my energy and 6 cps. for example if flag comes off cd when i'm shuriken storming the balls and i'm at 4 cp and 30 energy and i symbols to 80, i'll inevitably run out of energy before i get to a 29/30 stack. i doubt it's a big deal either way but just a thought i had. worth to finish on 2-4 to get to 30 or not

west prism
lavish zenith
#

hm ok ok cool

west prism
#

@noble pendant made the sim. Is it still valid mister?

noble pendant
#

Yes

#

It was a very slight, almost neutral dps gain for sub

#

And it was a loss on sin

quartz geyser
west prism
#

Yes

quartz geyser
#

sounds reasonable

west prism
#

Just finish whatever you have

#

when its 1 sec left

noble pendant
#

It was I think <3 seconds

cunning sparrow
#

<3

noble pendant
#

Basically just if you can’t finish another time

#

You would finish

golden briar
#

is it obedience based or just in general flag based?

noble pendant
#

obedience

lavish zenith
#

@noble pendant just to clarify, the forcying rule applies to the first half of flag right? (the building stacks portion). it does/does not apply to the vers damage amp portion?

#

cuz i could also see forcing a 4cp evisc w/ 1s left of 15% vers also worth, but i wasn't exactly sure which u meant

#

i figured u were talking abt first half only just wanna clarify

noble pendant
knotty oriole
golden briar
#

so it does or doesn't work? 😄

boreal patrol
#

Doesn't work. As soon as you have 6 sockets all bonuses disable (is what I'm hearing)

golden briar
#

thanks for looking into it anyway 😄

boreal shell
#

Has someone ever simmed holding the symbols between flagellations instead of the one just before it? Maybe it’s just me, but it seems to make my shadowdances more consistent, because I can always start dance on 0 cp.

regal agate
#

the sim holds symbols up to 10 seconds for flagellation

boreal shell
#

But which set of symbols?

regal agate
#

oh, you mean holding the symbols cast instead

#

i am not sure whats the benefit from doing so, you could probably look at rupture/snd refresh timers and see if it would be better. Combo Points seem not like a metric that is relevant in this case

boreal shell
#

At least from testing it manually, I seem to get more consistent dances (less refreshes of snd, rupture inside dances and more double dances with symbols due to having more cp spent beforehand. Might not be a theoretical improvement to damage, but a personal effect, where it’s just easier for me to get timings right.

lavish zenith
#

i wonder if there's any kind of apl optimization to be made w/ chaos bane stacks/proc. ie rupture falls off during 2s left on chaos bane and u could refresh ur rupture or delay it 1 finisher in favor of a juicy 6cp evisc (since there's no snapshotting). or ur only at 4 cp w/ 1 sec left on proc and just send the 4cp finisher w 900agi. could also be a certain threshhold w/ stacks and not just the proc. maybe it doesn't matter in the 4 vs 6 finisher thing cuz the shadow strike would also get amp'd by the 900 agi. maybe it'd also be a negligible gain and mess up dslice, idk how it'd work but just another thought

#

it feels fun slamming these huge eviscs

knotty oriole
#

I could certainly see some potential in optimizing for the Chaos Bane ramp somehow. I've seen some other APLs gain small gains from it. Early in the buff it probably is not worth to do anything but maybe late in the full buff

regal agate
#

the set bonuses def. could have some more optimizations to be had

knotty oriole
#

Early in the full buff shouldn't really matter since it's a decent duration

#

But I could maybe see some case where if the buff.chaos bane.remains is lower perhaps

spiral light
#

I was also thinking about optimizing syncing the last Vendetta/Vanish casts for the last chaos bane, but after looking into it, chaos bane is super rng and optimizing for it might not be really realistic. The embedded picture are my chaos bane procs on Remnant. Very inconsistent.

unknown.png
#

But it of course makes sense, for example, to hold your cds for 10s if you know you won't get another set of cds and you know you'll get a full unholy effect before the boss dies.

knotty oriole
#

Chaos Bane proc rate is really wild yeah

#

This has been a major critique of it for a long time unfortunately

cunning sparrow
#

from a raid just now where 6 people have it

unknown.png
#

it's incredibly unreliable and imo shouldn't be played around

knotty oriole
#

I think it could potentially be played around while it was up but I don't think I'd align CDs with it

#

Maybe the one exception could be the end of fight Vendetta

#

Since the timing is flexible

lavish zenith
#

i was wondering about delaying vanish env mut env for when ur on like 18-25 stacks when playing obedience sin vs normal if there's a gain to be had there

#

like instead of doing it asap in opener just delay the vanish liek 1-2 finishers

noble pendant
lavish zenith
#

yeah i mean so long as ur getting the same overall usages of shiv idk seems alright

noble pendant
#

Yeah it’s probably fine situationally, but theres timings where you would lose casts, and on average idk if it would sim better

golden briar
#

what if instead of the first env in shiv, you do it on 2nd or 3rd, but still within shiv?

#

and without delaying shiv

noble pendant
#

Delaying shiv any amount instantly resulted in losses

#

But vanishing later in the already existing shiv seems fine

golden briar
#

sounds good to me

gentle iron
#

call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=2&buff.shadow_blades.up&debuff.flagellation.up

#

being the line in specific

maiden cargo
#

note it seems way more impactful for ghostly strike and deeper stratagem users

#

and it tends to be a trivial gain for profiles that lack deathspike, deeper, ghostly, or all three (deathspike being most important ofc)

#

dunno what the best condition would be, i feel im not equipped to figure that out amongst all profiles, perhaps just variable.blade_flurry.sync is enough and simplest.

knotty oriole
#

BF sync probably the most straightforward yeah

lean talon
#

i just found out that if you have consumed anima charged CP at any point (doesnt have to be in the same combat and this works out of combat too), every SnD you ever cast counts as a 7 CP SnD for restless blades, ruthlessness and alacrity. this is absolutely broken and creates an infinite loop where you can reduce every CD to 0 seconds outside of combat for example, or when there is nothing better to do. you can just spam a a macro that cancels SnD and recasts it and get 7 sec CDR on every spell per global. also infinitely keeps up alacrity. especially in m+ this is just insanely op

maiden cargo
#

I knew I wasn't insane when SnD refunded 2cp sometimes

lean talon
#

i just found out it actually stops working once you use a finisher other than SnD after consuming the anima charged CP, so use cases are a lot more niche

#

so if you consume the CP and then cast another dispatch or BtE it stops working

spiral light
#

So just make sure to save CP for the Painsmith intermission and spam SnD during it. Or Sylv p2. Still kind of insane.

lean talon
#

Yea idk how it naturally lines up with it but you can definitely manipulate when you use your ER to make that possible.

What i just realized, you can also use this for infinite sprint during world content or farming old dungeons/raids LMAO

#

And hooks galore

mystic jolt
#

If you're in warmode you can have infinite evasion

civic mango
#

I assume this works with shadowdance refund, too, then

lean talon
#

Maybe, but Sub doesnt have ruthlessness so no infinite engine like outlaw

fringe flax
#

we can shuriken tornado to get 4 procs of the bug Pepelaugh

civic mango
#

or just wait for techniques proc

#

for 1 combo point

lean talon
#

Found another bug with ER, this time its a negative though. Echoing reprimand only flurries for about 25% of normal damage. Unlike with BtE this is true for non crits as well as crits. at first i thought the extra damage of the reverberation conduit might not be considered for flurry but thats not it, it happens with and without the conduit. I've checked multiple logs and its been true in all of them. sadBoy

unknown.png
autumn drum
#

WTF

#

oh no

jolly glacier
#

Like how can none of the covenants work for us?

regal agate
#

please keep the channel about discussions about findings/research and related discussion, we have spec channels or #wow-general for wow related smalltalk

keen kite
#

Hey, can someone explain what the ">?4" means in this sbs line?

actions.cds+=/serrated_bone_spike,cycle_targets=1,if=variable.snd_condition&!dot.serrated_bone_spike_dot.ticking&target.time_to_die>=21&(combo_points.deficit>=(cp_gain>?4))&!buff.shuriken_tornado.up&(!buff.premeditation.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)|fight_remains<=5&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<3
#

couldn't find anything about this operator in the simc wiki :/

boreal patrol
#

it's the min operator cp_gain>?4 translates into min(cp_gain, 4)

keen kite
#

thank you!

knotty oriole
#

If I were to make a random guess I would say because ER is magical damage it was manually implemented and someone accidentally is double applying the Blade Flurry coefficient.

#

(Typically BF has only worked on physical damage, as seen by the random physical trinkets in the past etc.)

#

@lean talon may be worth testing if this changes to match with Dancing Steel?

lean talon
#

will check it out

lean talon
#

@knotty oriole 31% with dancing steel

unknown.png
#

28% without. just wanted to do it on dummies again since in the logs the % might be slightly skewed with target damage taken modifiers like sinful, unholy shard or ghostly

unknown.png
knotty oriole
#

Ok thanks!

grave wharf
#

almost exactly 30% lower than the expected bf hit after accounting for the 40% / 45% in both cases

#

very weird

#

wait isn't armor reduction around 30%?

#

maybe it's applying armor again?

round canyon
#

it looks like BF is just copying the pre-modifier damage as we would expect

#

but then BF is effected by armor while ER is not

knotty oriole
#

Not at my PC yet but if that’s the case then SimC probably already does this correctly since we only copy unmitigated damage to the BF attack.

#

I’ll check numbers later to see if they match

regal agate
#

Just for your information, the hotfix changes are now live on raidbots.

regal agate
#

the fix for the set ranks is now also on raidbots.

fading spear
#

was blood set oversimming before too because it now sims lower in the latest build than it did an hour ago, at least for me

knotty oriole
#

Not that I'm aware

fading spear
torn dome
#

its school was changed

#

in earlier report it is shadow
latter it is arcane

#

DD boosts shadow

fading spear
#

Oh

#

is it supposed to be arcane? or is that a bug

torn dome
#

I have no clue, just my guess what explains the sim diff

fading spear
#

that would make sense yea

west prism
#

It should be shadow, unless they changed it today

torn dome
#

A recent (post hotfix NA log) still shows it as shadow

fading spear
#

so possibly a bug in the latest sim build

knotty oriole
#

Sims don't just get schools from nothing though

#

If it's Arcane it would be as such in spell data

#

It could just be a specific rank spell

#

But I think that's just the parent spell and not the damage in the impact, I'd need to check

#

Ok looks like the change that was made did accidentally change the type. Dorovon is already looking at fixing it.

fading spear
#

awesome, i was so curious lolk

knotty oriole
#

Should only matter for Sub

#

(But yes, it's just odd because the spells themselves are actually flagged as Arcane.. it's just one particular spell is Shadow lol)

lean talon
#

I think its time to reintroduce shiv into the APL. Its around a 0.4% to 0.2% gain depending on fight style and talent set up (most notable gain for killing spree actually). I couldnt find a single setup or fight style where it wasnt a gain. The condition is very simple, too. Energy rules werent really worth it/necessary: actions.build+=/shiv,if=combo_points.deficit=1+buff.broadside.up|runeforge.tiny_toxic_blade behind sinister strike in the builder list. This means you just use it to exactly cap CP with a priority below pistol shot (with or without quickdraw)

Patchwerk KS: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gXfDk9tYpahk8DFK4kCxsY
Patchwerk BR: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sPqcCJ9TJR9hJii53jf7fG
Patchwerk QD: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6b15eRhVDejL7nrG8uFda2/simc
Dslice: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oYSi81prRZxVMEU5oioJzy
raw extended aoe: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bzemA94afvMFBnYXEp3zV3

lean talon
#

On another note: I am fairly confident Ruthless Precision is currently undersimming because it doesn't apply to auto attacks in simcraft. I checked A LOT of logs and melee is always even with all the other rogue abilities, while sources of damage that RP actually doesnt apply to are way way lower crit%.

a sim with RP forced to show it doesnt apply to auto attacks in simcraft: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4pWRtVtu5MPoWA36Zthibt/simc
and one with GM forced for good measure, you can see the crit rate on melee is exactly the same:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9mkcqdGvACZWc2Vzf4WZV5/simc

Some screenshots from logs with the crit rate of melee compared to other abilities and liquefying ooze (which also does a lot of hits so its less prone to RNG than most other procs that arent on RP):

raw knoll
knotty oriole
raw knoll
#

got it. was trying to look through some of the logs and just kept seeing the 355767 id

#

thought maybe i was missing something.

knotty oriole
# lean talon On another note: I am fairly confident Ruthless Precision is currently undersimm...

Ruthless Precision is whitelisted and currently doesn’t have anything in the spell data that would indicate it works on AAs. Possible there is some hackery involved but there’s nothing in there that would indicate this. I would need to double check that WCL is reporting the Crit% correctly relative to the increased Miss% for melee. I know WCL has some issues with Crit reporting at times (e.g. absorbs for example)

lean talon
#

if that was the case, other dualwielding specs with no crit amplifiers would have higher crit on their auto attacks in comparison to the other abilities right?

#

that actually seems to be the case

#

eh maybe hard to tell

knotty oriole
#

Yeah it’s tricky. I’ll note this is actually something we specifically changed in BfA based on testing at the time for RP.

#

It may have changed I just don’t see any obvious way how

lean talon
#

so just to clarify, what you are saying is that when wcl says 50% crit on melee, it might be 50% of the 81% of melees that actually didnt miss (so 40.5% in total), while simcraft shows you 50% of hits + misses combined

knotty oriole
#

Yeah that would be my concern. I’ve been jabaited by WCL Crit reporting a few times over the years and don’t know if that is still the case. 😛

lean talon
#

i think you are right. for some reason i just assumed RP worked on a server-side script and not on a whitelist that we can view. melee not being on it definitely makes me think so

knotty oriole
#

It’s certainly possible there is jank. I don’t ever rule stuff like that out for Rogues haha…

lean talon
#

but isnt it uncommon for melee to be excluded from the whitelist? i feel like usually melee is included in those whitelisted spec specific buffs and damage amps

knotty oriole
#

They usually have a specific melee aura. Just like there are specific AA entries for Modify Auto Attack Damage% etc.

lavish zenith
#

does master assassin talent/leggo work w/ winds procs? could be worth to save vanish as sin for force a winds proc crit at r5 (although it would desync the shiv vend vanish). just a thought sim jf anyone tested it

knotty oriole
lavish zenith
#

ah okok

knotty oriole
#

Can blame Necrotic Wake 😄

willow knoll
#

Which they fixed ANYWAY deskchan

real granite
#

Thank. Would be a pain to have to figure that one out xD

lavish zenith
#

does the shiv rule for the 0.2-0.4% gain apply at 3cp w/ broadsides as well? and if not, why? isnt it same logic that would potentially waste cp from 4->5 w/ no bs as 3->5 w/ bs?

warped grove
#

I don't see a reason why it shouldn't apply to bs, it's even in the action expression

lean talon
lavish zenith
#

ah ok ok missed that mbmbmb

#

hopefully nobody shivs for 11 dps right before an important mechanic that needs to be shiv'd pepelaugh

lean talon
#

in raid the nice thing is that shiv also provides defensive benefits for the tank now (albeit small). so its a dps and a utility gain POGGA

knotty oriole
#

Kinda unfortunate 😦

#

Empowered version is set as higher priority so it fades the existing buff, but doesn't actually apply and/or is instantly removed

# 
Name             : Numbing Poison (id=359078) [Spell Family (8)] 
Class            : Rogue
School           : Nature
Spell Type       : Magic
Range            : 100 yards
Duration         : 5 seconds
Mechanic         : Snare
#

Was set up as a Snare mechanic (copy and paste from the empowered Crippling debuff) which is likely why it doesn't work

lean talon
#

i had no idea. man that sucks lul

knotty oriole
#

Yeah reported it on PTR but alas

#

I mean it's not a big deal in a negative sense, just too bad

thorny fog
#

is the blood set still classified as arcane on sims or did it get put as shadow already?

knotty oriole
#

It was fixed

shell fern
#

Is there a case where the cast order makes sense? snd after sod/flag and shd after flag

IMG_20210807_154834.jpg
regal agate
#

Flag benefits from the symbols crit without consuming it, so its used before flag.
A finisher is used after flag what makes sense to get flag stacks.
Dance after that because you get the most value out of dance.

I don't see anything wrong with the sequence, also this channel is mostly about research
while your question was asking explanations on core concepts of the spec.

If you worked out a concept/model/simulation or logical statement why this is not correct we can continue this discussion here.
If not its better to move to #subtlety

maiden cargo
#

how to cancel killing spree in apl?

#

interrupt_if is for channels and i cant get cancel_buff to fire in the middle of ks

knotty oriole
#

KS is a channeled action so it should work

maiden cargo
#

oh, you're right it is working

#

i think something's wrong which is why i didnt catch it

#

just tried adding interrupt_if=energy.deficit>0

#

reran the sim and it was -15, so perhaps its just outside of margin of error to make me think it's working sporadically

knotty oriole
#

Maybe try cancel_if

#

I think interrupt_if does require there to be a higher priority action available and the positioning in the APL may not allow that. Not sure

maiden cargo
#

cancel_if appears to crash the sim

knotty oriole
#

You need a ticks>0 or something to keep it from immediately canceling before it's scheduled I think

maiden cargo
#

oh thanks

tough hornet
#

has some influence on gear with higher crit priority

knotty oriole
#

Have been a bit too busy to put a priority on updating the default profiles since they don't really matter much at this stage, but will probably update at some point

#

Although at most gear levels it seems hard to recommend Dashing

tough hornet
#

its a boost at my heroic ilvl too with r3 frost

knotty oriole
#

Even when Frost is being used at R4+ Dashing doesn't seem to come out on top for many profiles atm

#

For me Doomblade is pretty solidly ahead of Dashing with R4 Frost

#

Not really sure what the inflection point is but it's not universal

#

Even in the BiS profile it's less than 1% difference to Obedience

#

Just depends on gear, don't want people freaking out about such a minor thing 😛

crisp granite
#

Nadjia last row is a pretty big deal

#

i understand the thought of not wanting people to feel like they wasted their embers on unholy shards or panic though.
But i dont think tier profile where ever to tell people what they should use, we have top gear for that, so i dont rly understand the reason you wouldn't put an obvious noticeable dps upgrade to our profile

tough hornet
#

i think frost shards is bis regardless of covenant/dashing as well

knotty oriole
#

Frost is yes

#

I think it's comparatively difficult to find a Necro profile that benefits from Dashing though, compared to Venthyr. The increased value of Doomblade due to SBS DoT and the fact that Dashing doesn't work on SBS is a factor.

#

So there isn't really a universal recommendation here

crisp granite
#

so i dont see how that is relevant

#

again i dont think the tier profile set is supposed to be an universal recommendation on how you should build your char, i dont think that is it's purpose

knotty oriole
#

I mean, at this point it really has no purpose

#

Which is why it's not a rush to update it 😛

maiden cargo
#

tbf i saw the tier profile as a common base used for testing apl/simc adjustments so if it is a more niche build that puts more work on the tester to ensure results are not specific to the build

knotty oriole
#

Yeah basically

crisp granite
#

i mean i dont rly care about it personally, just the fact that there was reticence updating it because it might not be bis for necrolord, which is not our bis covenant in the first place seems weird to me

crisp granite
maiden cargo
#

thats true ppl are starting to do that a lot now

crisp granite
#

and i think having the frost set as a common base to test stuff is great too as it's recent and people may new stuffs

knotty oriole
#

Not gonna split default profiles just for Dashing vs. Obedience, seems kinda silly 😛

crisp granite
knotty oriole
#

It's like 0.7% DPS difference

#

May swap it when I have the time but I'll be keeping track of what people are actually using

#

I think most folks already are using Obedience and are probably unlikely to change in the immediate future

spiral light
#

I disagree.

knotty oriole
#

So as a reference profile I'd rather it map to what folks are using

crisp granite
#

assa running obedience ?

spiral light
#

Frost pulls ahead quite a bit currently and most Assa players are not using Obedience.

#

Most are using Doomblade.

knotty oriole
#

I mean Obedience is higher than Doomblade at higher gear levels too...

#

😛

spiral light
#

But you're talking about the current situation and whether or not people will change in the immediate future

#

And in the current situation people are using Doomblade

#

over Obedience

#

for most fights.

crisp granite
#

i'm pretty sure you can regularly find 100 dps with dashing frost over doomblade unholy

knotty oriole
#

Obedience is further ahead of Doomblade than Dashing is ahead of Obedience

spiral light
#

Dashing is currently around +180 DPS for me in single target.

knotty oriole
#

For BiS profiles

spiral light
#

Obedience and Doomblade both drop quite a bit.

knotty oriole
#

All this is more or less reinforcing my point that the default profile is really fairly meaningless. It's just to be a base profile for TC and building advanced sims. Not gonna agonize over it when there are multiple very close options. Will be swapped to Frost when I have some time because that's a rather large change, but beyond that we don't look at it all that frequently.

crisp granite
#

yeah that's fair

noble pendant
#

those changes are very minor as well

#

not sure why they do it

knotty oriole
#

This has been a rather large debate in the SimC private channels lol

#

Ultimately it's up to the maintainers but there's a number of folks that think it's clutter for no particular reason. 😛

noble pendant
#

makes sense, thanks

knotty oriole
#

I have the Momentum profile commented out for stack charts since it does effectively identical DPS as the baseline profile so didn't seem worth the extra row lol

#

So you can guess which side I'm on 😉

#

Anyway, I will update the default profiles at some point over the next week. Still getting caught up after being out of town all last weekend, so I had more important things to do than worry about flexing on the stack chart. Max is just gonna say Rogues are still bad anyway. 🤣

raw knoll
# noble pendant not sure why they do it

DKs did it since they’re very distinct talent setups and want them to be looked at individually if blizzard looks at it. there’s a lot of struggle within the community of trying to balance out BoS vs Oblit and against 2H vs 1H.

lean talon
narrow light
#

With the new dashing scoundrel build for assassination, in fights that we use crimson tempest instead of poison bomb (soulrender dormazain for example), would it be worth to not cast CT on the single target moments, due to the envenom buff?

noble pendant
knotty oriole
#

iirc APL currently skips ST CT completely right for Dashing?

narrow light
noble pendant
#

I don’t CT single target ever to be fair kekW

knotty oriole
#

actions.dot+=/crimson_tempest,if=spell_targets=1&!runeforge.dashing_scoundrel&master_assassin_remains=0&effective_combo_points>=(cp_max_spend-1)&refreshable&!exsanguinated&(!debuff.shiv.up&(energy.deficit<=25+energy.regen_combined))&target.time_to_die-remains>4

#

I think I found a while back it wasn't worth doing since you lose Envenom uptime

#

Maybe worth testing again at different gear levels but it's probably still the case

maiden cargo
knotty oriole
#

None

#

Or, if anything, extremely small

plain coral
#

splitting simcraft profile into 2 profile, one for Venthyr and one for Necrolord isn't a bad idea tho. Since these profile may use differents legendary/optimisation it also alow tc-er to access this 2 profile quicker, whenever a change occurs.

#

(For assasination it is)

#

ps : obedience is shit on assa ^.^ (as long as it force a Vendetta delay to be optimal at least)

regal agate
#

The problem is the same applies to different covenant, legendary powers, different gem sets and potential different talent combinations.
If we do this we end up having 12+ sim profiles

harsh basin
#

It makes some sense to have multiple profiles if there are multiple popular covenants that result in different talent/legendary/gearing choices, since covenants are not something easily swappable like the other factors.

knotty oriole
#

Imo it only really has a purpose if the performance is wildly different. As it is now, the difference between Covenants is less than many talents. With no differences in gearing other than 1 item and 1 conduit. Seems pretty superfluous to me when these profiles are hardly used for anything anyway. 🙂

tough hornet
#

agree with splitting profiles on covenant not making much sense for sin, especially because frost set becomes BIS regardless of covenant and doomblade/dashing isnt much difference

#

i would like to see a frost set default profile though, the high crit value can affect stuff like trinket charts (making eye of the jailer trinket better) which people use for gearing decisions from bloodmallet and hero damage

knotty oriole
#

Mostly for testing the best tool we have is Raidbots and that can generate multiple properly configured profiles a lot faster for configuration-related things like talents/soulbinds/conduits than we can by hand.

#

Which is why we have largely moved away from updating the default profiles constantly.

#

It’s just a moving target and a lot of time investment for limited value.

#

But I do still plan on updating the set to Frost this week at some point.

tough hornet
#

i agree that the best gearing methadology is to sim yourself constantly and do droptimizers etc, but there is a significant more casual focused playerbase that only looks at trinket and legendary charts based off the default profile for gearing decisions

#

so its worth to keep those relatively up to date, imo

#

no rush though 😅

void fractal
#

I heard about frost set simming too high. Does Anyone know if the sims here are correct?:

#subtlety message

regal agate
#

i did refresh the sims yesterday, so they should have all changes to frost in it that are in simc

green nimbus
regal agate
#

shoudl be fixed now but it worked fine on desktop

thick steppe
#

Guys, quick question - browsing simc for sin rogue, and see that kevin's uptime is not prioritized to keep the buff up - is it due to doesnt worth it? Or in a long run (boss fight), its some average in anyway, and sbs is used only to avoid capping?

knotty oriole
#

The buff uptime will be the same no matter what since it's always lower than your SBS charge rate

#

And the pet duration extends when you use SBS multiple times in a row

#

So realistically it doesn't much matter how you use it

#

The only reason Kevin isn't used is because of the lack of the AP coefficient making the pet damage itself basically nothing. Otherwise it would be a pretty competitive Soulbind.

#

For some reason Blizzard forgot to make it AP+SP and just is SP only

golden briar
#

has that been reported as a "bug" ? cuz it feels like a bug

knotty oriole
#

Yes

#

Has been reported since PTR 😦

#

Through quite a few channels

#

Not really sure why it's still like that tbh...

#

Then again Mnemonic Equipment is also still bugged and reported by a lot of people too..

thick steppe
#

Thanks!
Isnt it worth to align (or at least max prolong) kevin's uptime and shiv/vendetta?

knotty oriole
#

I did not see any gain from this the last time I looked but it has been a while since I tested anything

thick steppe
#

Got it, thank you.

fringe flax
#

Raidbots looks like it defaults to choosing a set and adding the 2 DPS shards from the other sets (probably to save iterations) but that ends up in it ignoring shard of Zed when not playing unholy. It's not a big thing but yea

lean talon
fringe flax
#

Yea but zed does dps

knotty oriole
#

Not much

#

It wouldn't ever be worth using over another DPS shard for sims. The only real world application would be like maybe swapping out for Sylvanas or something

fringe flax
#

It's better than Cor for me at equal ranks

lean talon
#

or over frost on encounters without many add spawns

knotty oriole
lean talon
#

idk like tarragrue, guardian, heroic painsmith

knotty oriole
#

Feel like Guardian may be short enough that Cor still works out but I'd have to check

lean talon
#

hm i doubt it, zed actually does really good damage for me in m+ when i use it (like~1.5% overall)

knotty oriole
#

In ST it's only like 0.4-0.5%

#

iirc

#

For M+ it could be good

lean talon
#

i mean in m+ you 100% use it. triple dps gem + zed + resounding protection

tiny narwhal
#

I think there is a world where you drop dom helm for 252 helm with prismatic socket, depending on dungeon and what you need ofc

willow knoll
#

No

#

Just use the defensives

#

Shits op

spiral light
#

Or is this just a case of it procing and taking 0.5s to fly to the target

maiden cargo
#

Unfortunately I have no idea what the commit is doing, I figured it was a simc thing bc of the choice of word “iteration”

tough hornet
#

i believe the proc dmg wasnt reset in between iterations in fights in simc, so you would start a new fight with some built up dmg

spiral light
#

Mm yeah.

tough hornet
#

but since it's a low dmg cap it would maybe give like 50k dmg to one fight if it wasnt reset, so low impact change

spiral light
#

It does work in funky ways on some encounters, like KT and its phylactery

#

Here's my KT wind procs and you can see that it didn't shoot a frost proc at 1:20 or 3:20

unknown.png
fringe flax
#

you stayed up right

spiral light
#

Probably just the case of your winds procing on a target in a different realm.

spiral light
# fringe flax you stayed up right

I ran into dot the phyl and then left immediately. Probably the proc should have gone on the Remnant, but is instead removed from the game entirely.

fringe flax
#

Wowhead says you need LoS for it to proc

#

so yea maybe that

#

procs on remnant but no line of sight because you were out => proc vanishes

spiral light
#

But does all of the damage just disappear or does it stay in the pool if it doesn't activate?

#

Because that definitely sucks a bit if it just disappears entirely.

fringe flax
#

your hits after the missed ones look average

spiral light
#

Yeh, definitely do. Even a bit on the low end.

#

Stuff like this is a bit FeelsBadMan where you don't get a single proc for 1.5 minutes.

unknown.png
fringe flax
#

1

spiral light
#

Even though you're obviously hitting adds during that time but they just die before the winds have a chance to proc

fringe flax
#

do you just miss it if you're not targetting anything? I'd have thought itd at least go on someone else in range

#

like even if hitting sylv for 1

spiral light
#

Targetting shouldn't matter according to the commit and it should hit the last target that you pooled damage from.

fringe flax
#

oh so it's the last and if that's dead it just vanishes? doesn't make a list of other targets you crit as backup ?

spiral light
#

Another thing that came into mind; what happens if a mob that you just recently crit for dies just before the winds proc happens? Does the wind proc just not go off because the last damage came from a dead target, or does it go on the next target in the line?

#

Idk, this whole winds thing is tripping me off.

knotty oriole
#

It hits the last enemy you crit no matter what

#

Dead or not

spiral light
#

That sucks.

fringe flax
#

just crit the right target I guess

knotty oriole
#

But yes I keep meaning to make a timer mod/WA for it to monitor the pulse rate so I can be more careful about my targets

#

e.g. not pre-dotting Remnant orbs if the timer is going to go off before they get debuffed

#

I've lost a few procs that way

knotty oriole
#

This commit also implements the multi-target case, so say on HAC styles and such that should be correct

#

If a crit happens to land on a despawning add at the wrong time

gleaming fern
#

which would be explained by SBS always hitting something so theres always a target to hit

knotty oriole
#

SBS certainly seems to help this for sure

gleaming fern
#

Looks like they messed up Kevin when trying to fix it for Priests, it now grants 10sec of the buff when casting SBS; and another 10sec when it hits, meaning its 20sec per cast of SBS now. That might put Marileth as the best Soulbind for Necro

lean talon
#

That means you can keep it up for like 2 minutes without any resets MonkaS

gleaming fern
#

YEp

#

Monks for example get 20sec for each target they hit with Bonedust Brew. So as long as you hit 3 targets every cast, you get 100% uptime

#

Since its not targetcapped for them, they can do 1 cast and get 5+ minutes on a massive pull

civic mango
#

Does it give 30 seconds per cast with death spike?

gleaming fern
#

its kinda good in m+ now for sure

001de47ba9.png
wraith lagoon
#

talking with our ww monk and he hasn’t tried it yet but he said he’s totallyyyyyyyuy not going to abuse it OMEGAKEKW

placid beacon
#

That's massive right ?

half portal
#

It’s not small

knotty oriole
#

Do you happen to know if they addressed the AP vs. SP scaling on the pet itself while they were messing with it?

gleaming fern
#

Still seems like ti doesnt scale with AP, no

#

It seems like they made a hotfix due to priests not getting it triggered when it doesnt hit a target, and just made a change that it now grants the buff on hit per target. For all classes, not just priest.

#

So we get the 10sec on cast, like we did before, but also 10sec on hit. Every other class gets their designated Kevin timer for each target hit.

knotty oriole
#

That sounds... not quite right haha

ruby narwhal
#

I guess this is the more correct forum to ask in

#

Above is what im referring to, not only is it delaying vendetta for seemingly no reason, other than pre-vendetta shiv to pump envenoms after AND losing out from added damage values of using vendetta on the global before flag losing vendetta buff on both flag application and the finisher afterwards? Seems quite odd to me as the damage gain from using vendetta on flag is a lot bigger, you're losing out on a lot of damage compared to using it pre-shiv which does like 600 damage? this is playing with obedience and CT, not playing shiv conduit either. APL is not the best or?

knotty oriole
knotty oriole
gleaming fern
#

Ye it does

#

You get 30sec of Kevin with deathspike if it hits 2 targets

knotty oriole
#

...

#

That sure is something. lol

placid beacon
#

Deathspike stonks

#

Does this make marileth go to atm for raiding too? Just wondering

knotty oriole
#

I guess it depends on if they fix it

#

Marileth is only like 1% behind atm so presumably double Kevin uptime would likely make it BiS

placid beacon
#

But they wont fix it in the next couple of hours?

knotty oriole
#

Because that's really the implication of this for the moment without using Deathspike

#

I can maybe do some quick sims to check but at work atm

#

I think it's fair to say it's likely the best as long as that holds though

placid beacon
#

Wicked

knotty oriole
#

Given how close it was

#

Might be an override you can do to sim it, I'm checking

#

Possibly just doubling the value of effect 884364 from 20 to 40 would be a hacky way to do it for now

placid beacon
#

Cool I will try when I get to my pc

knotty oriole
#

Yeah that seems to work

#

override.spell_data=effect.884364.base_value=40

#

At a glance it seems to make Marileth like +2.2% for me

placid beacon
#

Over Heirmir?

knotty oriole
#

Yeah

#

Which makes sense. It basically goes from 3X% uptime to 6X% uptime

#

And it was about 1% behind

#

If they ever fixed the AP vs. SP coefficient issue that's been reported a billion times, it would be best anyway...

#

For ST anyway

placid beacon
#

What issue?

knotty oriole
#

The pet itself only has a 1x AP coefficient on his attacks but a 2x SP coefficient

#

If you compare logs you'll see the pet's actual attacks do about 1-1.5% more DPS for casters or hybrid melee with SP coefficients (e.g Monks)

#

than other melee DPS

#

Would really be enough to make up the difference between the soulbind performance for Rogues easily if it was consistent

placid beacon
#

That’s stupid

#

That certainly cannot be intended right?

knotty oriole
#

It's almost certainly a bug yes

#

None of the other special pets are set up that way atm

nimble spade
#

do i put that override in expert mode

knotty oriole
#

Yes

proud wadi
knotty oriole
#

As a note, I really wouldn't expect this Kevin bug to last

#

Because it's beyond broken for Brewmasters

#

Since they get CDR on Bonedust Brew they can basically get infinite duration Kevin

placid beacon
#

If it gives us 2 per cent extra 😂

remote granite
#

lmao, true

proud wadi
#

Nah fam

#

definitely this one

#

Transparency is the way

placid beacon
#

Ofc

knotty oriole
#

😛

quartz geyser
#

It’s like capped to 2.5 seconds I’ve heard

knotty oriole
#

Yes but it still makes it so that they effectively use their ability more frequently than the ratio of other specs

#

Like by default the Kevin duration is 1/3rd the cooldown

#

Which means double duration is 2/3rds

#

But their effective ratio is already slightly better than 1/2 uptime

#

Meaning they become >100% uptime with this bug

#

And Bonedust Brew is also a projectile similar to SBS so they have access to the same bug

#

And also SP conversion

#

So instead of gaining like 2% like we do, they are gaining like... 6-8% lol

#

So I can't imagine this will survive the day

#

Poor Rogue oozling damage compared to Chad Monk oozling damage above lol

#

Also, apparently Bonedust Brew gives for every target it hits by default, including friendlies... so apparently there are some videos of Monks getting a 14 minute Kevin duration from one cast in outdoor situations. So yeah, I assume this is not long for this world.

plain coral
#

Hey was wondering if Phantom Fire was taking in account into the Winds of Winter Calculation on simcraft

#

Seems like it does, but we had evidence that it was not actually stacking the winds

knotty oriole
plain coral
#

recently Loktark noticed that in a recent log of him there were missing some damage in the Winds of Winter overall damage and these damage seemed to match Phantom Fire

placid beacon
#

It gets better

#

Kevin stays if u switch back to Heirmir

knotty oriole
plain coral
#

Gotta catch @round canyon then, he's the guy who dived into that specific log

lean talon
gusty mulch
knotty oriole
#

The damage spell doesn't appear to have anything odd on it

#

Mutilate container spell has the same Suppress Caster Procs flag

#

Seems pretty typical for non-damaging initial casts

lean talon
#

hm i see. i know lok tested it a bit and apparently the damage number lined up perfectly if you subtracted the phantom fire damage

knotty oriole
#

Same for Killing Spree

lean talon
#

i mean killing spree also doesnt stack bron so its weird anyways ANGERY

twilit granite
#

I guess that would be hard to test

#

There is 5k damage difference in Winds of Winter with phantom fire pot and without pot

#

(in sims)

#

So it would be hard to notice in a log aswell

knotty oriole
#

Would be best to just be an isolated test in Torghast

fringe flax
#

Can put a turnip in korthia

lean talon
twilit granite
lean talon
#

Phantom fire damage that is?

twilit granite
#

Eternal skirmish is included aswell

#

Yeah

#

Tested w/o oils

#

But I guess they should be included aswell

lean talon
#

Hmm i see. Yea only phantom fire was in question

gleaming fern
#

@knotty oriole kevin fixed

spiral light
#

Looks like Kevin has been fixed already.

unknown.png
#

:( hey

knotty oriole
#

RIP

#

Blame Monks

#

Also didn't help that the buff stayed after changing Soulbinds

gleaming fern
#

try to keep up cev

spiral light
#

I asked about it in ot first only to get trolled by Vaughn.
Posted here, only to get slayed by Seli. FWD got me on the ropes here.

raw knoll
#

@spiral light please keep this channel to research topics.

maiden cargo
#

Perforated Veins is being underutilized by sims, the stacks are just not being consumed efficiently between Shadow Dances. You can easily look at this by just doing a quick sim with the conduit active. Just did it (Kyrian), it consumes PV stacks 14 times, even though its using Shadow Dance an average of 20 times. Obvious issue being it chains 2 Dances together without consuming the stacks, when instead it can just Backstab 1x in between and gain another at minimum 5 stack of PV. Would be shocked to find out there's no gain in it.

golden briar
#

could there even be a gain in using the backstab in a dance, seeing how strong the buffed backstab is?

#

(not that i want to ever press backstab in dance, just asking)

noble pendant
maiden cargo
noble pendant
west prism
#

I wonder if the updated apl makes it bis for enhanced conduit spot as well

golden briar
#

it would be such a fun and well designed conduit if every stack of it also gave you an additional CP on the next backstab

twilit granite
#

Is there any way to track winter of frost procs in simc? Like, forcing a spell to be casted when the proc is going to happen in < 5 secs.

#

I thought in using the shield as trigger but not sure if its implemented in simc

west prism
#

But good idea

golden briar
#

i mean, they could tune the bonus dmg down

#

but it would be very fun to play with a full 6cp backstab after every dance

#

would make vanish and meld slightly stronger too 😄

knotty oriole
#

Per rank value is already small, let alone the differences between them

#

Only really way, way better conduits are going to be noticable

#

e.g. Lashing Scars

west prism
#

True true

knotty oriole
golden briar
#

oh, ofc not using backstab in aoe

noble pendant
#

but perforated in dungeons would be omegagigaultimatecringe

knotty oriole
#

Basically seems to be a loss on anything other than 1T. It's like -5.7% on just straight 2T so really only a ST optimization

golden briar
#

well ofc, backstab isn't really used in any multi target scenario

knotty oriole
#

I mean "ofc" perhaps but point of this channel is to actually find concrete changes that can be implemented. Obviously not going to put in an APL change that is -5% in some cases. 😛

west prism
#

The conduit itself is a dead conduit on more than 1 target

#

So just make it not do the stabbing when there is more than 1 target around and it’s fixed?

knotty oriole
#

Probably

(buff.perforated_veins.stack<4|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>1)

noble pendant
#

thoughts on that?

knotty oriole
#

Think my variant probably performs better. It's +0.6% on DS.

noble pendant
#

whatever works

knotty oriole
#

The stack<4 condition is neutral for most setups

#

But advantageous with some soulbinds

noble pendant
#

sure

knotty oriole
#

Mostly Necrolord. Which I know nobody cares about. Except me. 😛

#

But it's like +0.2-0.3% in that situation

golden briar
#

so, how does PV fare against other conduits at 252 with these changes?

west prism
#

It was already the best conduit for some Kyrian setups

knotty oriole
#

I'd have to integrate the changes really quick, although the real concern is probably the fact that it's really not good beyond 1T. Even on funnel cases it'd probably go negative so I dunno what the use case is outside of Guardian.

golden briar
#

sylvanas? 😄

#

a fight that doesn't have 100% uptime could easily see value in PV

#

as long as it's mostly ST

knotty oriole
#

I mean kinda trash for half the fight. Good in P3, will be negative in P2.

golden briar
#

in p2, you have 2 boss burns + you go left side on the solo big guy

west prism
#

Depends on strat but ye

golden briar
#

i guess, but what i'm saying is that sylvanas is or can be a 99% single target fight

#

sure, a few ghosts/arrows here and there in p1

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I dunno, unless it's way ahead I'm not sure I get using it over the other many globally useful ones Sub has.

#

But I

#

I'm sure it has some niche applications

west prism
#

I would prob use it on 9, eye, nerzhul, pain, guardian and sylvanas

golden briar
#

either way, i'm just looking to see if there's any point replacing stiletto

knotty oriole
#

I'd guess it is negative on Eye and Remnant

#

Get more than enough use out of Shuriken Storm on those fights

west prism
#

Yea, true

golden briar
#

thing is

#

you still use the 1 backstab after a dance

#

and i mean, maybe not while the add is still up

#

but you could still use a backstab at some point on the eye with full stacks before using another dance

west prism
#

You would only do it if you want prio damage

#

For overall dps it’s probably better to just PE on any fight with 2 targets somewhat frequently, because the apl change isn’t actually used in game

#

Except for the 9, since most of the fight is actually ST

knotty oriole
#

Like basically you're at a situation where Planned Execution (with the APL changes) is -1.2% on ST, but +2.2% on 2T+.
So the rough neutral breakpoint would be 35% multi-target

#

Also need to check how this interacts with the new Chaos Bane check that was added to the same line today...

#

Seems fine, so I'll finish adding it

twilit granite
#

Uhm. It seems that finishing always at >=4 cp except for BTE as outlaw is neutral for my profile. Has this been discussed?

#

Its neutral with either QD or GS

knotty oriole
#

I'm not sure I understand the question

twilit granite
#

As outlaw, with gs, we usually finish at max cp if broadsides is not active

#

I mean we can finish at 4 cp and would still be neutral

knotty oriole
#

For all builds and talent combos?

twilit granite
#

Tried it with quick draw and ghostly strike talents, and frost set. Venthyr. Patchwerk.

#

For QD/BR is a slight win in dungeon slice, couldnt find a loss yet

knotty oriole
#

I mean changing the line is a 2% loss for Deeper for obvious reasons, so making the line more complicated just for a neutral change seems not really ideal.

twilit granite
#

In dungeon slice its a 0.1-0.2% win with any combination of QD, GS, BR, and KS.

twilit granite
#

It would simplify the rotation a bit in these cases

knotty oriole
#

I do think most of the reason it's neutral is that the average Dispatch CP spend here is 4.7 and SnD is at 4.8 anyway. Which means 70%+ of the finishers are being cast at 5 either way. And Broadside has 40% uptime. So without putting in debugging cases to see what this is changing, it may just not really be changing much of anything in a practical sense.

maiden cargo
#

his default apl there has the average dispatch at 5.0, that seems odd yea?

twilit granite
#

I guess its rounded up. There are some dispatchs casted at 4 cp

#

In the sample sequence table i mean

maiden cargo
#

i dont see any

#

oh nvm yea

#

must be 4.99 or whatever

#

for the record, i do remember this being brought up like, almost a year ago, where it was essentially neutral for seliathan's profile so he started doing it out of simplicity (i think)

twilit granite
#

Exactly thats why i pointed out, simplicity

#

It doesnt matter if you have qd or gs or broadside

#

Only bte

#

Not sure what are the results with other covs tho

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

I mean they are both equally simple and the current APL allows a universal rule for Deeper vs not.

tough hornet
#

is there a way to force enable frost set bonus in simc? raidbots is not taking advantage of the latest hotfix to raid legs to enable frost set, so i want to sim with frost set always on regardless of my current equipped gear

regal agate
#

You can only disable the set bonus to my knowledge so you will need to wait for it to be implemented in simc

tough hornet
#

hmm there are no expert mode overrides to force the effect? sus

knotty oriole
#

Not really no

#

Rebuild should be happening already though

midnight moat
#

Could give urself the shoulders and overide the ilvl and stats on them

ancient heath
#

Worth simming the 10% AA dmg. ring from Court of Stars for timewalking?

maiden cargo
#

maybe but need to change the level requirement of the effect atm, put override.spell_data=spell.228462.req_max_level=60 in the custom APL box or at the top of advanced sim

ancient heath
#

awesome, thank you

tough hornet
#

I mean it's pretty obvious, if it works then it's bis if not than it isnt

#

It's a free effect

#

You can see how it will give you by adding 10% dmg to your melee in a log

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I mean it's 100% BiS if it is the same design and available

#

It's basically a free 1.2-1.5% damage out of budget

golden briar
#

kinda pointless to look at those things until we know if they work or not

remote granite
#

I think it'll fall under the same category as the Shard of Azzinoth

#

super great if you manage to get one, because it's op

#

but it comes every 6 months so good luck

knotty oriole
#

I mean it's orders of magnitudes easier to get though

#

Ring is on every single spec's loot table

#

Basically has a 20% drop rate

remote granite
#

oh ofc itll be good im just saying itll only be available for a week every 6 months kinda deal

knotty oriole
#

Well will be available for 2 weeks initially also

#

It's tricky since if there's no usable items from it then what's the point of running it? 😛

golden briar
#

FUN

scarlet heron
gusty ridge
#

There was a conversation about secret techniques earlier which led to some interesting results -
Seems like its not worth using it on ST at all -
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3PyQjv6Q657XN1cb6x3ULL

Also in dslice appears to be better to use it on 3+ targets -
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3EMw6nfGPz32wMGvNDdZHY

Its still behind tornado, but I guess it helps a bit especially the ST part

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 12,142 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 12,000 DPS - Raidbots
regal agate
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seems to be still a slight win even without deeper dagger.
Nice find, sadly just confirms that the talent needs attention

clear brook
restive vale
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and dungeon slice vs pw

clear brook
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Oh I see

unborn rain
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what is the TCI override command for rerolling when you have specific buffs?

Use Roll the Bones until you have at least Shark Infested Waters and Broadsides up

actions+=/roll_the_bones,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend&!rtb_list.all.15
isn't working

maiden cargo
unborn rain
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thanks ill look into that

mystic jolt
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With the MFD+ obedience build for assassination, has it been checked to see if it's worthwhile to finish at some 1-3 cp if you won't be able to fit in another finisher otherwise during flag (similar to sub)? Or was that implemented with the apl updates for MFD usage as well

noble pendant
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that's been tested many times on sin in general and it shows a loss every time

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which is to be expected, as it's neutral on sub, and sub is much less tied to it's energy than sin is

mystic jolt
noble pendant
# mystic jolt Yea I tried fiddling it and the best I could get was a small gain (within margin...

couple things just real quick

  1. within margin is not a small gain, within margin is neutral
  2. your added line doesn't actually trigger because you immediately overwrite the entire direct list on the next line (note the difference between += and = in this case). That means you actually simmed the default twice, which is why it's margin of error.
  3. debuff.flagellation.duration isn't a variable that works, which is causing it to skip the envenom line entirely. On top of that, debuff.flagellation.remains<=1 will return true if the debuff is not on the target, so you have to add another check for the debuff being up.
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that all being said

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I reran the sim with those changes

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and it is a very small gain

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but that gain goes away with any other legendary

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and probably isn't consistent with other gear sets either

mystic jolt
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makes sense, i had a hunch something was wrong but wasn't quite sure, and I was only expecting it to work with obed

noble pendant
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yeah

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it seems okay to do with obedience

thin pasture
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yo is there a way to like change the % of uptime with theo's soothing shade in advanced sims? kinda similar to iqd %? sims keep telling me theo's like an 81+ dps upgrade with crit buff, 21 with haste, and overall 25+ dps upgrade from nadja. wondering if its simming the soothign uptime at 100%

regal agate
thin pasture
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dear god it took me 30 minutes just to figure out how to copy a link from wowhead and add ,ilevel=x

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LMFAO

willow knoll
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Soothing shade with super low uptime is still going to likely perform better than nadja, especially because nadja also oversims slightly due to intermissions, downtime etc

civic mango
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Umbrella uptime in sims is basically 16% and in practice you get between 5% and 12% just from my own log data, and I do actively track it and try to utilize it as much as I can. So yea, it definitely over sims by just a little bit, but if the soulbinds are close enough for that difference to change the priority, then they aren't very far apart to begin with

regal agate
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Should be the overwrite (in ms)

override.spell_data=spell.336808.duration=XXXX
override.spell_data=spell.336885.duration=XXXX
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changing it to 10 secs instead of 12 is ~20dps what will likely not change the outcome in a comparison

willow knoll
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Pretty much every soulbind in the game "oversims a bit"

neon bloom
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Hey, does anyone know how to turn bloodlust off in advanced sim on raidbots? Tried setting custom bloodlust time (2:00 for 60s fight) external_buffs.bloodlust="120" but it didn't work.

knotty oriole
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override.bloodlust="0"

lavish zenith
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anyone done the math on how many targets u drop bonespike on? if 0 outstanding? 2? 3? do outstanding bonespikes change the target threshold anyways?

knotty oriole
lavish zenith
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oh sub**

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mb

knotty oriole
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I haven't looked into that personally then. Fuu/Mystler/Whispyr may have some ideas.

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Probably lower than the other specs for sure, iirc the APL dropped it pretty aggressively

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Since Shuriken Storm at >=2 targets is above it in priority

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It bails on 4T when capping charges

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actions.build+=/shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=2&(!covenant.necrolord|cooldown.serrated_bone_spike.max_charges-charges_fractional>=0.25|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)&buff.perforated_veins.stack<=4
actions.build+=/serrated_bone_spike,if=cooldown.serrated_bone_spike.max_charges-charges_fractional<=0.25|soulbind.lead_by_example.enabled&!buff.lead_by_example.up|soulbind.kevins_oozeling.enabled&!debuff.kevins_wrath.up
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(!covenant.necrolord|cooldown.serrated_bone_spike.max_charges-charges_fractional>=0.25|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)

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this part in particular

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So basically uses Storm at 2+ unless capping charges then uses SBS at 4T or below

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So fully drops SBS at 5T+

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But there are some other conditions in the CD logic so probably Fuu or someone could give more info

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I looked into this a little bit a while ago when I was poking with Necro Sub but passed it off for the actual testing 😄

lavish zenith
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hm ok ok cool thanks. so i guess in certain situations where u we're going from 4t into 5t you'd want to use all 3 charges of your sbs as the 4t pack dies so you'd arrive at the 5t pack with zero charges since u arent going to use them anyways. man 9.1.5 cannot come sooner

knotty oriole
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There is another case where it puts it on stuff that will live at least 21s as well

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As long as Tornado isn't up and SnD is up and some other conditions

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(If it doesn't have the DoT yet)

regal agate
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koji is correct, the apl will never drop sbs entirely but rather evaluate based on how long the target survives.

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its currently at 21+ secs, its possible that it could be refined with the soft cap in 9.1.5

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btw. this is vital because sbs runs infinite what means that its unlikely that it won't break even or get ahead if the target survives long enough

lavish zenith
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did we address the premed vs wm dslice sim thing? i linked a while back in sub channel some sims showing that wm > premed significantly (100-200dps dslice). but herodam show premed as top simming profile. i wasn't sure if that was cuz wm just wasn't simmed or if there was something i was missing. iirc some ppl sent some info abt old premed optimization or something but i didn't see conclusion

thorny fog
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last time pre med was touched it was made to work better with tornado but it may have been linked to flag might have to check

lavish zenith
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well it's just weird it displays it as top simming profile but i can't find a single profile that premed actually beats weaponmaster except on like a 20 second sim

knotty oriole
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Obedience prefers WM

lavish zenith
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yup thats the one

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its finality vs obed ty ty ty

knotty oriole
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np

lavish zenith
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does anyone know if targeting forces certain target capped classes to have their spells hit the target? think in a 20 mob pull with frozen orb, is there ever a world where frozen orb wouldn't be ticking on your target? could apply to any spell. or monk sck randomly not hitting their primary target because there's 10 mobs in the pull

knotty oriole
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Some AoE abilities always impact your primary target first

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Others order by enemy GUID

lavish zenith
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okok i was just curious i had never heard anyone talk about it before

knotty oriole
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It's definitely on a case-by-case basis

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Unfortunately not something that is overly consistent... 😦

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I remember in beta comparing the behavior for Havoc a bit and some abilities (iirc it was Eye Beam) always hit impact in GUID order, meaning procs basically always go on the enemy with the lowest GUID regardless of your primary target. While others (like Blade Dance I think) always have your primary target first in the impact list and thus procs go on your primary target.

knotty oriole
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Just as a note to all the Kyrian Sub players out there, I'm phasing in some better emulation of player-based reaction time to Shadow Technique procs. Historically this hasn't been a major issue, but with the ER legendary builds it's actually pretty relevant as the DPS impact of finishing incorrectly at lower CP is quite high and the frequency of attempts is much higher using the legendary.

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This may result in a small decrease in DPS until we phase in some better APL rule to avoid this (like a human would have to do)

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Impact is about ~50-70 DPS right now at default player reaction times (100ms base delay + 250ms +/- variable human reaction time)

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Introducing more base latency (e.g. higher spell queuing) increases this loss notably

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Aiming to get the sim numbers back up to roughly where they were before with APL updates, which should help prove what the "correct" player strategy is for dealing with ShT timers.

knotty oriole
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As a quick follow-up to this, nightly should include a rough first pass at the APL updates for this as well, since I had some time to work on that. Avoiding considering the animacharged CP value at 2-4 CP within 0.5s of a potential proc (inclusive of reaction time) unless we have a fallback buff in the next "slot" claws back most of the loss here.

The nice thing about this APL logic is that it appears to yield almost exactly the same DPS (11950-11960 with the profile above) across the default 100ms delay all the way down to 400ms. Which means it should be a relatively robust approach for real-world latency applications across a wide variety of latency/spell queues.

Sims are still showing a slight lack of utilization of the 2 buff (0.3 per sim) and 4 buff (0.6 per sim) which I think is actually pretty realistic (probably end of fight cases) looking at logs. Those two buffs have, pretty regularly, the highest uptimes of the four buffs.

Will still try to find some further optimizations though.

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APL change for the SimC-oriented is as follows:

# Account for ShT reaction time by ignoring low-CP animacharged matches in the 0.5s preceeding a potential ShT proc
actions+=/variable,name=effective_combo_points,value=effective_combo_points
actions+=/variable,name=effective_combo_points,if=covenant.kyrian&effective_combo_points>combo_points&combo_points.deficit>2&time_to_sht.4.plus<0.5&!(combo_points=2&buff.echoing_reprimand_3.up|combo_points=3&buff.echoing_reprimand_4.up|combo_points=4&buff.echoing_reprimand_5.up),value=combo_points
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@west prism @noble pendant Just in case anyone asks why they sim slightly lower now 😛

lavish zenith
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has anyone looked at if there's any target thresholds where it's worth to just spam fok -> ct as sin as opposed to keeping that + as many ruptures/garrotes as possible? ie previously it was always best to just keep up ct and use ur cps on ruptures, maybe now at x targets it's 2% more dps to just fok ct

noble pendant
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yes, I've spent countless hours of my life and I haven't found a situation where it's a clear winner

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unless you sim like 90 million targets

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It's basically been a question since CT was added back LUL

willow knoll
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There needs to be something very dumb like echoing blades where you drop basic rotation for fok or CT

knotty oriole
noble pendant
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I could never make it work in dslice though, was big loser mode

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just sustained aoe

knotty oriole
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Makes sense as the initial damage is reduced aggressively. For me it was more a question of the impact of DP procs maybe

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But what you're saying is 0% surprising to me

noble pendant
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yeh

knotty oriole
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Since CT can proc DP also like FoK, but FoK itself gains that too so it seems offsetting

noble pendant
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and the dp proc would be envenom stonks anyway

knotty oriole
# noble pendant just sustained aoe

I mean if you think about it there's really no way for this to change at any target count that doesn't involve CT DoT uptime since both FoK and CT have the same softcap and scale factors. Just probably does mean, as you mentioned, it's still fine to clip to apply new DoTs on streaming add scenarios but more targets isn't really gonna change the math in a static sense.

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But I think the APL already applies CT when any target doesn't have it

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iirc

noble pendant
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correct

knotty oriole
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If anything it's actually gonna skew the other direction right? Since uncapped FoK generates more CP now on average.

noble pendant
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that would make sense with the numbers I was seeing

knotty oriole
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Damage ratios from both direct damage and poisons will stay at a constant ratio between FoK and CT since they have the same cap values, so realistically CP gen is actually the most notable change with the patch