#tc-research

1 messages · Page 40 of 1

fickle aspen
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But isent 200+ dps a bit much for a sharpening stone? O_o;

noble pendant
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20ap * 2 = 200 dps doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, maybe a little high

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was expecting like 120ish honestly

wet glade
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I think there may be an issue with the outlaw finish apl line for non-QD sims: actions+=/run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-(buff.broadside.up+buff.opportunity.up)*(talent.quick_draw.enabled&(!talent.marked_for_death.enabled|cooldown.marked_for_death.remains>1))|combo_points=animacharged_cp

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shoudlnt this be: actions+="/run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-(buff.broadside.up|(buff.opportunity.up)*(talent.quick_draw.enabled&(!talent.marked_for_death.enabled|cooldown.marked_for_death.remains>1)))|combo_points=animacharged_cp"

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modest dps gains for WM and GS

fickle aspen
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@noble pendant why dosent oil/oil show up tho.

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It only shows oil/stone or stone/stone

fickle aspen
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and this is oil/oil

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Is oils really only 50ish dps compared to 20*2 ap that is 200~ ish dps?

noble pendant
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you can check the html report for the oil damage

fickle aspen
noble pendant
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why are you double enchanting

fickle aspen
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I thought you simmed it like you would sim weapons.

noble pendant
fickle aspen
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How did you do that? D:

noble pendant
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you can check the raw input, I just put the enchants in, dunno.

# trinket1=,id=178811,bonus_id=6807/6652/1498/6646,enchant_id=6200,enchant=20attackpower this is definitely weird though, it should replace, but I would just not double enchant out of principle

fickle aspen
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Hmn?

noble pendant
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there's two enchants on that trinket

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the 20 attackpower enchant, which is the last enchant in the string, should override the previous enchant, which is the ID'd one

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but I wouldn't do it, because it feels weird and just adds more ways to mess up what you're trying to do

fickle aspen
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Fair enough

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How do you add buffs in adv'ed sims tho?

noble pendant
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not sure what you mean by that, but for my sim, I made copies, and replaced the trinkets with new versions that had the enchants

fickle aspen
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Ah like battle potion since it affects oils aswell

noble pendant
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I made a pastebin for myself sometime in beta to compare food and potions, you can paste this at the end of an import in advanced: https://pastebin.com/9YmkwZYj

fickle aspen
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Oof its like learning code :c

covert plume
lean talon
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The current outlaw APL has a condition to only use ambush (and thus vanish) when it doesnt have Skull and Crossbones up. Removing that restriction (and changing the required energy cost from 60 to 50) leads to 2 more vanish casts in a 5 Minute sim (from 5.4 to 7.2) and a slight DPS gain. The dps gain should probably get bigger at higher ranks of Count the Odds. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sPK8kF669ueEyKp6LTjQ63

The APL can even get up to 7.7 vanish casts if you allow it to vanish at 4 or more CP to cast Dispatch instead of Ambush. However this seems to be worse than just vanishing for Ambush. This is probably because a vanished Dispatch competes with a normal Dispatch that already benefits from CtO, while a vanished Ambush competes with a Sinister Strike or PS which doesnt have any chance to grant buffs. (https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uAiABEFJjk32kfYdB3CGKS)

knotty oriole
lean talon
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sorry, just a late realization. maybe worth checking if this makes legendaries like Master Assassin significantly better, since the sim is getting 50% more vanishes than before

regal agate
civic mango
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That seems pretty big

regal agate
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it could make ma about on par with the ~5% dps legendary items

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and also make it slightly better for m+

civic mango
regal agate
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no, its just his profile with the legendary power added

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deathly shadows looks suprisingly good with those changes

pearl heart
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not sure if it's the correct place to act but did people sim out MA sub dungeon boss openers? Mainly wondering about optimizations such as delaying vanish a bit on opening after initial MA to generate CP for more evi and/or have a rupture running during second MA

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obviously you can fit everything into blades but then it's a matter of SoD uptime during second MA vs doing more evi/having rupture ticks

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currently on dungeon bosses (with SnD already running) I'm doing: ShB SoD (prepull) SS (out of stealth) ShD secret tech (5 CP) SS evi (5/6 CP) ER rupture SS SS vanish** evi (6CP) SS**** evi (5/6CP) ShD SS**

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bold is MA uptime, underline is SoD uptime

knotty oriole
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Removed the Ghostly condition since it wasn't doing anything, included your changes to the buff check and energy threshold

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And also moved Vanish up the CD action list priority to the top (another 0.3% gain or so)

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Added MA and Deathly buff conditionals to avoid overlaps in DungeonSlice coming out of Stealth

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Overall ended up being about 0.5% in ST across the board, obviously more with MA/Deathly.

civic mango
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what's the ~interval on vanish in the new apl koji?

knotty oriole
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just shy of 50 seconds

civic mango
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Ty ty 🙂

shell adder
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Why would the APL make you vanish before a ShS instead of Eviscerate during Shadow Dance ? (With MA legendary)

📎 unknown.png
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ins't it better to Vanish before an Evi

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to have 2 during the MA buff

knotty oriole
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Because Shadowstrike gets a buff from Vanish and Eviscerate does not. (Rank 2 Shadowstrike effect.)

shell adder
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Oh ye true forgot about that part

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Thx

noble pendant
sacred veldt
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just a screen of the open obviously but actually its sync once at the very end and thats the only time

noble pendant
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APL casts sod on cooldown pretty much, and then a shadow dance on top of it to fit the whole sod

sacred veldt
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ty for the answer

knotty oriole
noble pendant
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oh definitely

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I think its a very niche case

knotty oriole
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Would almost certainly need to be gated on MA specifically at the very least

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I’ll take a look into MA a little more on the weekend

tough hornet
knotty oriole
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100% depends on gear level

noble pendant
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default consumables have always sort of been a little ignored

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because of what koji said

knotty oriole
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There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this or stat food really

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Although primary food being good atm makes that simpler for now

dreamy kindle
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Was there any changes to the Sub/Sepsis APL after the hotfixes went through?

knotty oriole
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Not as of yet

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The difference is extremely minimal. It means we are "wasting" 0.5 procs on average on a 5 minute fight due to expiry but that's honestly gonna be such a minor gain it's not worth being too fussed about. Plan on looking at it some time this weekend but wouldn't expect much from it.

dreamy kindle
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Do you think sepsis usage timing will change? Or does the current APL not account for the buff being consumed during SD?

knotty oriole
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The current APL did nothing special to try to set up for it, it's just treated as being able to run the stealth list and have Shadowstrike available

dreamy kindle
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Okay, thank you for the answers.

knotty oriole
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np!

tough hornet
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is count the odds bugged? when the main RTB buff fades, the buffs from count the odds fade with it even if they are higher duration. And if it is bugged, does the implementation in simc account for it?

civic mango
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It's a little buggy

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basically if you lose your true rtb roll, you lose all of your count buffs with it

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basically don't vanish with less than 15 seconds left on your true buffs

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other than that, it doesn't really matter

tough hornet
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yeah im curious if the current outlaw sims account for that bug, cause it could make outlaw a bit worse than it appears if they arent

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@civic mango why would vanish affect your true buffs? RTB buff stays outside of combat

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oh so you dont get a count the odds triple duration buff right

merry pike
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if u dont have a rtb buff and do ambush vanish ambush and get buffs and roll u wont lose the buffs

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good way to get more buffs

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but afterwards if u have an active buff they will roll away or fade away

tough hornet
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kinda annoying to keep track of the true buff

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i have a dynamic group so t hey all shuffle

merry pike
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i think it only really matters for opener otherwise u always want to have a rtb buff up either way unless ur vanish cd comes up as ur rtb fades

civic mango
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ideally you roll before you do something that gives you count

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but rolling does not eliminate your count buffs

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it can just over write them

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but if you roll then ambush, for example, it would give you a buff that you don't have

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I just have to know which one is real and which is from count

knotty oriole
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All of the current bugs are accounted for in sims

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Count the Odds is still the best conduit by quite a large margin, despite that

lean talon
lilac vine
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this conduit was adapted from a tier set bonus that was bugged in exactly the same way during legion. https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/issues/84

and it was fixed about two weeks later. i assume they will fix it here as well.

GitHub
[Bugs] RTB buff expiration also removes T21 4P buffs · Issue #84 · ...

Game Version: 7.3.2 Live (25549) Description: Whenever regular RTB buffs expire, all T21 4P buffs are also immediately removed. Reproduction rate: 100% Details / Howto: Cast RTB, gain at least one ...

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funny how the bug made it through yet again

glossy lynx
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why lead an example only lasts for 3 seconds in buffs instead of 5?

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oh i guess its just cuts it in the log because the 'time' of next ability is 1 sec + 5 ms

knotty oriole
# wet glade I think there may be an issue with the outlaw finish apl line for non-QD sims: a...

Hey, thanks for the note. You're right that it looks like a parenthesis ended up in the wrong place recently when we stripped out the azerite logic. Will adjust for readability, however I think the DPS difference in your comparison was some artifact of how the profiles were set up because I wasn't able to see this actually resulting in a DPS gain or loss when testing the isolated change. If you want to take another look: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/codHoUngf1ypvwoFM7rib8

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 4,484 DPS - Raidbots
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Oh, this seems to only really be a gain without Quick Draw, I see now?

wet glade
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yeah, as you would only finish at cpmax for WM and GS

knotty oriole
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Anyway, good catch on the syntax. I'll make the change since this was just a typo.

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Think it happened when the Wits stuff got removed

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Last week probably

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Probably just going to go with the simple + method rather than | since that's what it was initially trying to do iirc

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But maybe something to keep an eye on

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Primarily seems to be a gain for GS

wet glade
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the only difference is the pipe would make you finish at cpmax-1, whereas the arithmetic operator would bring it to cpmax-2 for opp+BS+QD

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so the i agree with not using the pipe

knotty oriole
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(But I do think this happened only recently, so good to catch it now)

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Will check in the change shortly

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I'm going to further investigate if the MfD condition is still relevant first

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While I'm in there

wet glade
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I think that was just because you would MfD before you used up the opp proc after finishing, so might be better to finish at cpmax instead of -1/-2, but unsure on that one.

knotty oriole
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Just removing that conditional with QD+MfD doesn't seem to have any DPS impact right now at a quick glance so I may just strip it out. I'm sure it used to do something but I'm all for removing outdated conditionals if they aren't effective. 🙂

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Just gonna prune the whole thing down to:

actions+=/run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled)|combo_points=animacharged_cp

maiden cargo
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i hope this is the correct place to ask, is going with podtender with to raid for heal over time and rez an okay thing?

📎 unknown.png
noble pendant
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Not what this channel is for, please ask your question in a spec channel. (But yes it’s fine)

maiden cargo
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okay thanks

knotty oriole
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Depending on the situation going Niya with no DPS conduit can potentially be more DPS.

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I would check both

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At these conduit levels GI can be stronger than a conduit but it will depend.

hollow flame
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actions.stealthed=shadowstrike,if=(buff.stealth.up|buff.vanish.up)
does this still apply with master assasin? Feels wierd if you vanish in a dance with sod and find weakness up and then pressing st instead of evis...

lost echo
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there was a convo not to long ago about this, being in stealth buffs the shadowstrike so i think it's still a dps increase

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thats what they ended up on

knotty oriole
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At the very least it's likely quite close

noble pendant
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I agree it’ll be pretty close. The bonus from r2 shadowstrike is fairly decent chunk of damage

hollow flame
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hmm, as long as find weakness is not up I get it but as long as it is up 5cp evis hits for 5.6k, r2 shadowstrike for 2.7 while overcapping combopoints, also you delay the energy reg from relentless strikes and the cd recovery for dance..

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really don´t see how st would be better in that situation, am I missing something? On long duration fights it might not really be noticeable since u only vanish so often but still

noble pendant
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Well you’re not overcapping, the vanish line handles Cp deficit, and the difference might be 3k damage, but you’re only doing 3 vanishes in 5 minutes, so 9k damage (if it lines up like that) I also don’t think that’s accounting for shadow blades, which will be up whenever you vanish, lowering that 9k gap even more

hollow flame
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well it says combo_points.deficit<=3 which could also be max cp

noble pendant
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Sure, but that’s not usually going to happen

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Like my sim showed, from the conversation on this earlier, it would be ~14dps if you force vanish evisc at 5cp

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It’s really minor, and in a fairly niche situation

hollow flame
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well aside from the sims it will happen, for example vanish will come off cd mid sod dance when you´re already at 4cp+

noble pendant
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It might, yes

knotty oriole
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There's a couple things you're not considering

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  1. There is a chance with WM procs to fit the same number of Evisc in the MA buff anyway
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  1. WM procs can double the damage of the Stealth Shadowstrike
noble pendant
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Completely forgot about WM as well, good point

knotty oriole
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And yes Shadow Blades

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There's a lot of moving parts here 🙂

hollow flame
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forgot about wm too since I mostly play premeditation for m+/m0

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but okay, as long as Shadow Blades is up or you are running wm it makes sense then

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thanks for the input

knotty oriole
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But still maybe some small things we can find here

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If you want to Vanish for Evisc it might be slightly better, nothing really to stress about either way though

knotty oriole
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So investigated this issue a little more, the gains for optimizing for Evisc are still fairly small and mostly only with Deeper Stratagem. It is neutral with Weaponmaster and without Deeper. Best case seems to be around 0.2% in ST. However, the gains are actually a little larger for AoE with Black Powder so going to put some logic in for it as it's relatively substantial for DungeonSlice with Deeper (around 0.7%.)

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@noble pendant @sacred veldt

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Will be using this for the MA Vanish condition:

combo_points.deficit<=1-talent.deeper_strategem.enabled
And then making sure we just don't do the pre-finisher high-priority Shadowstrike if MA buff is up.

lean talon
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Vanishing at any CP instead of just at 1 CP is another small gain for outlaw with the Deathly Shadows legendary (https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qiqw24TBvmUD5A62vTmtAr). I also tried to make it use slice and dice or between the eyes out of vanish because right now it always finishes with dispatch no matter if BtE is off cd or not, but it didnt seem to work. Might not be a dps gain anyways because of Count the Odds, but not sure.

lean talon
minor quartz
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do current sims account for picking up all sorrowful memories for the buff extension?

boreal patrol
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yes

minor quartz
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thank you.

knotty oriole
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Tested quite a few variants and ran them through the gauntlet before putting in the cp<2 check

lean talon
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hm i tested using it at <=2 CP and at 6 CP and both was a gain over <2 cp

knotty oriole
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Think you might just be running into a fight length barrier issue with 5 minutes specifically and perhaps some interactions with your specific setup. The difference in casts of 7.7 vs 7.2 sounds mostly artificial since there shouldn't really be any problem fitting in Vanish immediately after a finisher.

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Running on high precision I'm lessing less than a 0.1% difference (6 DPS) between those

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It's conversely a loss of 0.1% in DungeonSlice so either way I think it's fairly neutral in general

knotty oriole
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But there are some non-optimal things in the "just blast it off" case too because obviously stuff like this isn't accomplishing too much:

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I'll poke around with the ER case a little bit more

knotty oriole
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I suspect that it's because the ER_2 case is the hardest one to meet, canceling out SnC gives a very marginally higher chance of hitting 2 CP after finishing and using SS

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I'd like to see if maybe there is something better we can do here

hollow flame
knotty oriole
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What exactly are you seeing that you aren't able to match up?

hollow flame
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It says its deals 87.35% of my AP´s damage but when I try to calculate it manually in a spreadsheet it does not match up with the ingame tooltipp or damage

boreal patrol
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post the full calculation you're doing with all mods

hollow flame
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((Agility*2*Vers Multiplier)+(Mainhand Damage*6))*0.8735

boreal patrol
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👀 that is definitely not correct

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the general concept is (AP+6*WDPS)*Mods with mods being the product of everything related, from those 0.8735 to all passive and active modifiers on top

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versa as well

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sub spec aura is 21%

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other than that depends on if you have additional buffs up

hollow flame
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So without additional buffs it would be (AP+WDPS*6)*0.8735*1.21*versa?

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wdps is from mainhand for shadowtrike I guess?

boreal patrol
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Yes, WDPS is usually main hand but can also be off-hand for some abilities or the hybrid form where it takes 2/3 MH and 1/3 OH. If you have further questions regarding the calculation, let's take it to DMs though as this is going out of scope for this channel.

soft torrent
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I Need someone to TC the master assassin opener in sub rogue
My guess is : SB/ SS / SD / SOD/ EVIS ( if more than 4 cp) /SS/ SEPSIS / VANISH / REPEAT / but not sure and I'm not confident about the opener u see in simc

noble pendant
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We get similar questions a lot around here with MA, mainly focused around shadowstriking from vanish vs eviscerating. I believe koji, fuu, and mystler have all looked into various MA interactions, and haven’t seen meaningful gains outside of dungeonslice black powder stuff from yesterday

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If you have a specific problem with the way the sims handle the opener, I’d be more than happy to look into it

soft torrent
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And this guy's follow the raid bot opener? Maybe im wrong but getting snd and rupture when u are in the windows of ( SB/SD/ SOD) seems wrong to me

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My guess is to juste burst and then start apply rupture and snd when all buff fall off

knotty oriole
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There are a lot of complexities here and for the purpose of a research channel we'll need more than just assumptions. Opener concepts are easy to talk about but harder in practice to prove out as most of them really don't have the direct gains one might think.

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Can't just dismiss the white damage from SnD, or Rupture ticks, or lost Sepsis damage from falling out of the SoD window

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Maybe something better here, maybe not. Have to prove it out first. 🙂

shrewd crater
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Hi fellow Rogues!

With M+ coming up soon, I wasn't satisfied with the behavior the default Sub APL produces in AOE-Situations with Master Assassin equipped (especially as NF).
In addition to the most recent change (Finishing after Vanish with Evisc/BP under given conditions), I had two main concerns:

a) Opening with Shadowstrike instead of Shuriken Storm.
Since Storm Crits applies FW and we 100% crit, we get more FW uptime on >=4 Target from Strom than we get from Shadowstrike, since 4*6 = 24 > 18. I am aware, that Shadowstrike does more damage than Storm and has interactions with T15 Talents, namely WM and Premed.
But since we want to use as much AoE Finisher on High CP as possible, using Shadowstrike is waste, I think (see Openers.)

b) Using SnD inside MA-Window.
In my opinion, we want to use 2 AoE-Finisher inside MA-Window. The first one should be SecTec if possible, so that that second part of SecTec is inside MA as well.
If we use Sepsis, we can only use 1 AoE-Finisher inside MA-Window, which should be SecTec if possible.

Openers:

  1. With Sepsis:
    Shadowstrike-Opener: SS -> Sepsis .. Now we either waste CP to get up FW on multiple Targets with Storm followed by SecTec, or we use SecTec on possibly not full CP and with FW missing on multiple Targets, wasting DPS.
    Storm-Opener: Sepsis -> SStrom -> SecTec -> Storm
    Storm-Opener (alternative): SStrom -> Sepsis -> SecTec -> Storm
    (This one could be more practical, since we use Tricks on Tank, and the 100% crit Storm generates better aggro)

  2. Without Sepsis:
    Shadowstrike-Opener: SS -> Storm -> Sectec -> Storm (Wasting CP)
    Shadowstrike-Opener: SS -> SecTec-> Storm -> BP (Wasting DPS, because no FW for SecTec on multitarget)
    Storm-Opener: SStrom -> SecTec -> Storm -> BP

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The same is true for the Shadowstrike usage on low CP immediately after Vanish. Just replace SecTec with BP. Or Delay Vanish 1 GCD and do BP-> Storm -> BP -> Storm.
SoD + Dance should be used after 1. GCD. In some cases, SoD could be used prepull. At latest both CDs should be active when using First AoE Finisher inside MA.

SIMS:
I simmed for different target amounts (each 1 Minute) and a dungeon slice
ST, 3min: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bNVD3YEJiDSzJUwiwJeP8V
3T, 1min: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dvjZZvCUZUVYiHfKh69yVG
4T, 1min: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ic924KkCWyqJbjWiaeP3hT
5T, 1min: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/apTuN8FeM6dZ5zKEYFBa76
6T, 1min: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/55f5cRdPARuswSmAejiPce
8T, 1min: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5vFVKi83Fk4A82qcY3FxMG
DS, 6min: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5s1ai7Kt4pyNgRZsXqn5jg

I used Fuu's Mythic Week DS profile to sim, in case it increases comparability or something.

Not opening with Shadowstrike all the time, decreases the value of Premed a bit in DS scenarios, I think. I don't know, if using WM is thus better, since its more gain on ST than Premed and in AoE-Sitations they are equally useless.
This needs some more investigation. I am also not aware what causes the minimal increase in ST-Sim.
If I messed something up or did anything wrong, I am sorry to waste your time, checking the results!
I hoped I didnt just reproduce unintendedly, what you recently found out.

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 4,436 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 7,015 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 8,377 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 10,319 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 12,192 DPS - Raidbots
plain coral
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Have you considering opening without Sepsis and using Sepsis before vanish

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Such as Storm > SecTec > Storm > BP > Sepsis > Vanish Storm > BP > Storm > BP

shrewd crater
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I did not, as i wanted to have the 12 Stacks of Mastery up for the first two AOE-Finisher, as well as not waste a global inside SoD+Dance+MA for Sepsis. But maybe worth the investigation.

knotty oriole
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@shrewd crater not to throw a monkey wrench into your testing, but the APL was changed yesterday not to unconditionally use Shadowstrike from Stealth with MA, meaning finishers and Shuriken Storm are now being used out of Stealth with MA as per the normal logic

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So that may change some of your evaluation here

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Using your DS sim above for reference

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So I think my updated APL changes yesterday probably address most of your concerns here

shrewd crater
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Ok, I wasnt sure, and started testing some days ago, when the APL wasnt changed in that regards and wasnt too sure about my results. But that latest change would to the APL would still use SnD inside MA, right? So maybe that is still a gain for specific target amounts?

knotty oriole
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I didn't change SnD correct

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Maybe needs to be explored more, I was looking more at Vanish timing and forced Shadowstrike usage specifically

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Vanish was changed to have this CP conditional:

runeforge.mark_of_the_master_assassin&combo_points.deficit<=1-talent.deeper_strategem.enabled

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And the high priority Shadowstrike at the top of the stealthed list was changed to:

actions.stealthed=shadowstrike,if=(buff.stealth.up|buff.vanish.up)&master_assassin_remains=0

shrewd crater
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Ok, then im at least gonna test that again, when will the new APL be up? My changes to the APL were in no way clean and very hacky specifically for MA. Dunno if that has any side effects that are unintended.

knotty oriole
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Which allows it to fall through to the "normal" stealth list for finishers and builders, including Storm/Black Powder

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I think in most cases it should Vanish into Black Powder for DS (during the AoE portion, not boss obviously)

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But probably still uses SnD

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I'll take a look at that some more

shrewd crater
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Its a weird scenario with MA in between getting burst out and maintenance going. Thank you for your investigation and time.

knotty oriole
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As much as it feels bad to use SnD during MA I'm not seeing any obvious gain to avoid using it

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Using SnD initially is some lost damage but on the other hand not using SnD probably means you miss out on some crit melee swings so..

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I dunno

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Neutral in ST to avoid the high prio SnD and 0.7% DPS loss in DungeonSlice looks like

lost echo
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does DS have the ability to take into account cp remaining from the previous fight, and use those to put up SnD before exiting stealth to start the next pack?

knotty oriole
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It currently doesn't but that sounds like something I could make work potentially.

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Won't always be possible due to CP and SnD's refreshability rules though

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But could potentially get it working in some cases

noble pendant
#

@knotty oriole very interested in that for uh, sin reasons fast_eyes

knotty oriole
#

Kinda got it working I think

#

It's a mighty 0.2% DPS gain for DS 😛

lost echo
#

HUGE

knotty oriole
#

Putting that towards the top of the APL

#

Should work

#

But yeah seems of minimal difference

lost echo
#

does that / mean remove the action

#

?

#

still shaky on the syntax

noble pendant
#

no, that just adds a line at the top of the APL, so if it sees 0 targets, it'll try and cast slice as long as its refreshable

#

since its at the top, it's the first thing it tries to do

lost echo
#

gotcha, and refreshable in this case points to pandemic timer i assume?

noble pendant
#

yup

knotty oriole
#

Pandemic based on existing duration and combo points

#

There will be some situations where it's not actually possible to refresh

#

Since SnD doesn't let you reduce duration

lost echo
#

riiiight

lean talon
#

I just checked on holding vanish for Count the Odds when Roll the Bones has a duration of less than 15 seconds again because last time I did, I didnt know about the ambush condition so it didnt apply. Looks like it's actually a pretty big gain now to hold vanish so you dont waste the CtO buff. Of course this will be moot if Blizz ever decides to nerf the way Count the Odds works.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oF4L8mJmfWSUNj4yGHpfJj

knotty oriole
#

Makes sense

#

I didn't check this again after moving Vanish around

#

Before it was below RtB in priority so it probably messed with it

#

I wouldn't count on it getting fixed though

#

It was one thing we reported quite a few times and never seemed to be on their lists to fix 😦

#

So pretty much can assume the current behavior in regard to the expiring and stuff is likely to stay for a while

regal wing
#

with how stiletto staccato moves ShB around it is possible to set a condition for it to wait with the ability if it's a few seconds away from vanish?

#

I mean if Vanish is ready, but letting the cd wait a few seconds until ShB comes up to make use of the 2 crits to improve shadow damage?

lean talon
#

yea i tried it before by just adding the condition to vanish without changing the ambush condition, and i never got a different result obviously because it still followed the ambush condition

knotty oriole
#

I suppose if you really wanted to 200 IQ it

#

You could maybe check which small buffs you have 😛

#

Sounds like something we'd need to give an expression for since doing that in pure APL would suck

lean talon
#

yea i wondered if the count the odds buffs are also considered for roll_the_bones.up or if it differentiates them

noble pendant
knotty oriole
#

It would not be considered

#

That only counts the "container" buff

#

When you specifically roll

#

So it is possible for roll_the_bones.up to be false and still have rtb_buffs>0

#

Basically with a hacky APL version, how you'd tell the difference is compare like

#

buff.ruthless_precision.remains!=buff.roll_the_bones.remains

#

would mean you have a small RP

#

On normal rolls the remains of each buff and the container buff are the same

lean talon
#

yea that makes sense

regal wing
#

Thanks whispyr! I do think there is only value to this in lower stiletto staccato levels where they are harder to align.

knotty oriole
#

Like this part

#

/roll_the_bones,if=buff.roll_the_bones.remains<=3

#

Could maybe use some finessing too

lean talon
#

hm im not sure if CtO changes when you want to reroll, because all the CtO buffs would also fade after 3 seconds if the container buff is 3 seconds

knotty oriole
#

Not if it was down

#

So like if you do end up with a small Broadside or something

#

But it's down

#

You might not want to reroll?

lean talon
#

what do you mean by down?

subtle umbra
#

oh shit

#

oh wait nevermind

#

ignore/delete me

knotty oriole
lean talon
#

does that ever happen in a sim? you roll before combat, and you never let the original RtB run out

knotty oriole
#

Yeah it's possible it doesn't really happen

#

Not sure

lean talon
#

and if you dont have normal RtB up, you could just freely roll because it wouldnt remove the small broadsides right?

knotty oriole
#

Anyway I'll put in probably the 10s threshold you had above, doesn't seem any different to 15 and think erring on the side of conservative is better

#

Also with a CtO check since this isn't relevant otherwise

regal wing
#

@knotty oriole could not using snd during MA crit periods upvalue of premeditation? Like other openers has been mentioned in here specifically with nf in mind.

knotty oriole
#

That should just naturally happen if you compare them

void patrol
#

possibly a dumb question but when i sim myself im not seeing my soulbinds show up in the finished result

#

am i missing something here or does that just mean my equipped is best?

noble pendant
#

make sure to use the addon when simming, armory does not import soulbinds/covenants. Also not really what this channel is for, probably #wow-general, I can help you out over there

void patrol
#

thanks going there, sorry

novel turtle
#

What does sectec mean?

noble pendant
#

secret technique, its a sub talent, and also not what this channel is for, try #subtlety

grand urchin
#

Shadow Blades no longer benefits from increased damage taken effects twice.

#

Was this taken into account into SIMs?

#

If it was accounted for, this would be some sort of nerf towards Akaari which would push it to be worse than finality even on pure single target

knotty oriole
#

Honestly don't even know what they are talking about

#

There was some minor interaction with Deeper Daggers iirc but it is a non-factor at this point

wispy badger
#

it's mainly about the huntsman bug where shadow blades double dipped

knotty oriole
#

Which one was that?

wispy badger
#

the adds that take increased damage per stack when u CC them

#

shadow blades took double value from that

knotty oriole
#

oh

#

That's strange

#

It has the flag to avoid player multipliers

#

I'm guessing that debuff was set up funny

#

Didn't work on Psychus afaik for example

#

Either way shouldn't impact sims

wispy badger
#

I honestly thought they fixed it back then already

knotty oriole
#

Probably means we have to double check they didn't screw anything up though 😄

#

But it shouldn't impact sims in theory

#

We already didn't apply any modifiers to Shadow Blades damage by default

fervent lark
#

Does anyone know if Social Butterfly is simming correctly, ie. 2 allies 24/7 or if those 2 allies also have Social Butterfly so you juggle the full buff maybe?

#

@knotty oriole ?

#

Not actually sure how it works in game just researching for raid tonight

knotty oriole
#

Didn't implement it so not really sure

fervent lark
#

Ok nps

knotty oriole
fervent lark
knotty oriole
#

Not sure how you mean

#

How it works is you get 3% Vers for 5s, then you give 3 people 1% vers for 5s

#

And it cycles

#

Obviously it's providing some raid damage that isn't accounted for in sims which could make it worth using. But the personal part should be correct.

#

Given that it's 0.8% behind for my gear atm due to the layout differences could make the argument it's more overall damage plus lets you run Recuperator which is potentially valuable

fervent lark
#

Yep that's why it's on the table, investigating

#

Thanks for the info

ebon holly
#

is it possible to sim combat meditation with no duration extension? if so how? wnna compare it too the other covenants .

boreal patrol
#

shadowlands.combat_meditation_extend_chance

#

value of 1 means you'll catch every orb, below that it is a chance per orb

#

0 obv means you get none

ebon holly
#

thanks!

south hull
#

do u guys gpt anny sim for shadowland trinkets ?

raw knoll
#

not the proper chance to ask in.

a lot of trinkets are not properly implemented in simc yet so a lot get treated like stat sticks. the normal websites like herodamage have trinkets listed

tough hornet
#

couple questions about the finality legendary i think this channel is the best fit for. Does finality buff both casts of eviscerate (the additional shadow dmg too) or does it bug out like on black powder?

#

also, can you have multiple counts of finality at once for different finishers. lets say you 2x SS -> rupture -> 2x SS -> evisc, will you have finality: rupture and finality: eviscerate both active?

noble pendant
#

The bug is only on powder, and I believe the finality buffs on rupture and eviscerate are different spell ID’s and different buffs, so they are stackable yes

mystic jolt
noble pendant
#

It's simming correctly, yes.

Force multi is so strong because it gives a healthy chunk of main stat (which is strong), and a decent chunk of your highest secondary (also pretty good). Not sure if we should expect nerfs on it, but I wouldn't be surprised

knotty oriole
#

Can't put it on higher ilevel items iirc

noble pendant
fervent lark
#

Sorry if this answer is in here somewhere but is finality as is on live in sim or as we expired it should be unbugged (im on phone and sucking at searching)

noble pendant
#

its still bugged, and it sims like its bugged. Finality sims are accurate to live

tough hornet
#

i was surprised it wasnt disabled this week, a lot of top logs have a 130 dagger

#

hopefully patched by mythic

noble pendant
#

your 140 dagger with force is 2% on your 190 with celest? hmm

tough hornet
#

yes

fervent lark
#

70% uptime of main stat is good

split sorrel
#

For most people you will keep it until 220+ since you most likely have a Cara dagger with socket + FM on it.

boreal patrol
#

yeah, FM is really strong. i don't expect to remove my carapace socket dagger with Force Mult until they either nerf it or I get mythic raid weapons

knotty oriole
#

I mean it's hard to solve because Sub OH damage scaling is very poor

split sorrel
#

Maybe they could buff it wesmart

knotty oriole
#

I'm good with OH not mattering

#

Hard enough to get 1 dagger 😛

civic mango
#

Double 184 gang gang

lean talon
#

100 ilvl offhand gang gang

past fern
#

I'm noticing the Celerity legendary making my AR uptime at around 31% but in the simulationcraft model it's at 41%. Is something wrong with it or what else is influencing uptime? It also procs when I'm out of combat.

#

nevermind I think I figured it out! Still feels fairly underwhelming though 😦

split sorrel
#

May someone who crafted Finality contact us please ? (Mystler / Koji / Fuu / Me)
We need a clean log on dummy with Black Powder spam without any special buff.
Seems things changed in last hotfix, thank you in advance.

sacred veldt
knotty oriole
#

Sounds like you may be using weekly rather than nightly. That was fixed some time ago.

#

Although doesn't really have a notable dps impact realistically for the purpose of sim comparisons

sacred veldt
#

ok ty

civic mango
split sorrel
#

Shadow Techniques

#

1.8 vs 2.6 speed

civic mango
#

as outlaw?

split sorrel
#

oh lol sorry, was doing sub sim in //

civic mango
#

XD

split sorrel
#

that's interesting indeed since it should be all normalized + haste and versatility is clearly your goto stats considering your current gear

lean talon
#

everything for outlaw is normalized except instant poison

boreal patrol
#

right, good point

civic mango
#

right, which is what I thought was causing it, but I also thought that what aethys said was true, that in game it actually wasn't going to result in more poison procs

#

(Even though the tooltip says flat %)

merry cloud
#

don't think poisons were ever normalized, iirc we used fast OH back in WoD for the same reason

grand urchin
#

I did this exact test a few months ago in prepatch

#

Poisons are not normalized, higher speed weapons will proc it more

hoary bone
#

is it known that eternal skirmish chest enchant doesn't work in simc on legendary chest?

#

works in game fine

#

makes results of simming chest vs cloak for leggo craft inaccurate

stable pier
#

Finality seems to be simming noticeably worse than a few days ago - is there a specific reason for this?

tough hornet
#

it should be better

raw knoll
#

make sure you’re using nightly and not weekly.

knotty oriole
#

Does seem there is some issue with Skirmish on legendary items yeah, mentioned it to the folks who usually touch enchants.

wise aspen
#

anyone know the DPS difference on sinful revelation MH, celestial guidance OH vs sinful revelation OH, celestial guidance MH? Or a quick way to sim it somehow?

noble pendant
#

Top gear supports comparisons for enchants by default

#

You can also hit show all enchantments and see the bfa ones if you’re so inclined to

#

But there’s no difference what hand you put them on either way, so it’s kind of all irrelevant at the end of the day

sharp pecan
#

Is it possible to build a WA that shows the next ability you should use based on the tc priority list e.g. if there is more than one enemy nearby and blade flurry isn't active it shows BF, then it will show blade rush if it's off CD, etc. At the end of the day you can literally program the outlaw priority list and have a one icon WA yeah? Or is that not possible for some reason?

noble pendant
sharp pecan
#

Thanks I'll check it out!

lean talon
#

I noticed that the APL doesnt have a restriction to only use damaging finisher at the animacharged CP, which leads to it using SnD at 2-4 CP sometimes for no reason. This is not a dps gain worth mentioning really but maybe still worth to clean up? I just put in a restriction for SnD to only cast at 4 or more CP (i guess this still makes it sometimes cast SnD at 4 CP when it shouldnt).
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eMTrAxj2rphTeknRj7hJSb

echo matrix
#

Hey, I know that in #tc-updates it says basic implementation is done. But I'm currently simming a 171 quantum as higher than a 217 skulkers wing. Is this a proper reflection of actual preformances?

wet glade
#

@lean talon could probably just put a conditional on SnD in the finisher queue list that says !animacharged_cp or something similar

echo matrix
#

Wait, I switched to the nightly build and it jumped 150 DPS. I'm guessing its not in weekly yet. Ignore me.

noble pendant
#

yeah was about to ask if you were using nightly :P

wet glade
#

So i tried actions.finish+="/slice_and_dice,if=buff.slice_and_dice.remains<fight_remains&buff.slice_and_dice.remains<(1+combo_points)*1.8&combo_points=!animacharged_cp", but this brought SnD uptime down to like 80%...

knotty oriole
#

Pretty sure the "solution" is simply to put a dispatch line above the SnD line just for animacharged_cp. If that's not a gain, nothing will be a gain realistically

wet glade
#

i get basically the same with current APL, >=4cp, and using SnD when all finisher conditions are met sans the animacharge

#

was a slight loss to have dispatch ahead of SnD when cp=animacharged

#

though could just be profile variance with how small the difference is

knotty oriole
#

I mean the APL only hard-casts SnD like twice

#

So largely this probably doesn't happen even a single time per iteration on average

#

SnD can't be refreshed if the duration would be lower

#

3-4CP SnD is not even castable a lot of the time

wet glade
#

true. only thing i can glean from this is that it is probably not a good idea to dispatch a animacharegd cp if it means you will loose SnD uptime. Could maybe optimize it to only dispatch ER_2cp ones during BS buff that will last the rest of the animacharged time as those have the highest likelihood of being wasted., but even then, as you say, this is not something that will come up often.

#

The dispatch at animacharged_cp run had slightly higher animacharged usage for the 2 cp buff (2/2.3 vs 1.9/2.3)

lean talon
#

Could maybe add a conditional to only finish at the anima charged CP if SnD is up and has a duration of ~10 seconds? That would also lead to not using a dispatch in the opener when the First ER immediately lands you at the animacharged CP before you were even able to use snd, which should be a gain too i believe
but yea i dont think its very necessary, it just looks weird if the APL sometimes finishes at 2-4 CP for no reason

craggy zephyr
#

hi, did anything change today regarding force multiplier bfa enchant? was simming +70 dps for me yesterday, but -30 today

regal agate
#

force mult got nerfed iirc

craggy zephyr
#

thank god, good to know

#

thanks

grand urchin
#

Is there merit to check if it is worth to risk the chance of overcapping by 1 CP to make sure you always finish at max CP instead of 5(4without Deeper) to consume the Finality buff? Can someone smarter than me fix the APL to check for that?

regal agate
#

if you want to play around with the apl:
buff.finality_finisher.up is the condition to check if a certain finality buff is up
for example buff.finality_eviscerate.up for eviscarate

ebon holly
#

how about as kyrian? is using the animacharged cp evis with finality buff a gain?

regal agate
#

We had the idea too, but didn't came to check for it now

#

the apl change i did was:

- actions+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points=animacharged_cp
+ actions+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points=animacharged_cp&(buff.finality_eviscerate.up|buff.finality_rupture.up)
``` you can try to refine it if you want
`buff.echoing_reprimand_2`, `buff.echoing_reprimand_3` and `buff.echoing_reprimand_4` are the buffs.
keen kite
#

Hey, where do I actually toggle priority rotation on or off? looks like it is in 'priority_rotation' can we set that somewhere?

regal agate
#

you can add priority_rotation=1 to the sim, should work under custom apl

keen kite
#

seems like this is done for patchwerk anyway.
I think rupture should be changed to take that into consideration in the apl

# 
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=(!variable.skip_rupture|variable.use_priority_rotation)&target.time_to_die-remains>6&refreshable
#

quite the substantional dps increase ~150

#

it's skipping rupture atm if at 5+ targets but in prio rot, it will just spam evis then

#

tested with 300 sek patchwerk on 5 targets

regal agate
#

good catch 👍

spiral light
#

At the moment with the usual ST talents and Night Fae, the apl suggest opening with Shadowstrike > Slice n Dice > Sepsis > ShB/ShD/SoB/Shadowstrike, but wouldn't it be better to use Sepsis before Slice n Dice to get a longer duration on SnD, and then Sepsis' lines up perfectly with shadow dance and you can use the stealth ability right after the shadow dance ends, instead of having to wait for 1 gcd? Can be filled in with Vanish to ensure no gaps whatsoever

knotty oriole
#

Now that the Sepsis buff is not consumed by using Shadowstrike while in Shadow Dance I don't think the offset makes any difference in that regard

regal agate
boreal patrol
#

using it after also has the advantage that more ticks are buffed. something the APL doesn't do atm that might be a tiny gain is using the three CDs offgcd before the first hasted sepsis tick

keen kite
#

Hey, got another find for prio rotation, probably not really interesting for general sims but

# Up to 3 targets keep up Find Weakness by cycling Shadowstrike.
actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,cycle_targets=1,if=debuff.find_weakness.remains<1&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=3&target.time_to_die-remains>6

should be changed to

# Up to 3 targets keep up Find Weakness by cycling Shadowstrike.
actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,cycle_targets=1,if=debuff.find_weakness.remains<1&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=3&target.time_to_die-remains>6&!variable.use_priority_rotation
#

Don't know if anybody even is interested in prio sims, or if dungeonslice for example uses the prio variable. While beeing a relatively small overall dps loss, its quite the increase on the prio target

knotty oriole
#

We like to keep an eye on it since it gets used sometimes and can be utilized by rotation addons as well

keen kite
#

don't know how to do these fancy compare sims on raidbots, otherwise i'd put in a screenshot, sorry

knotty oriole
#

Usually can use advanced tab, have a base profile + copied profile with the change

keen kite
#

is that explained anywhere? don't want to get to offtopic in here

regal agate
# 
copy="name"
<change to imput>```for example:```
<gear profile>
copy="Night Fae"
covenant=Night_Fae

Will compare your covenant with the night fae covenant

keen kite
#

this would be the change. very minor overall dps loss but nice gain on prio target. 3 Targets patchwerk 300sec. Probably interesting for smth like Council in Castle

📎 unknown.png
boreal patrol
#

yeah, priority was made for zul back in the day but we sure want to keep supporting it, thanks

boreal patrol
#

@keen kite pushed both your prio APL changes 🙂

golden mica
#

So, does this mean we shouldnt cycle SS for 3 target?

boreal patrol
#

this is solely about priority APL where you want max damage on one priority target

pastel sundial
#

quick question for outlaw:
apl does currently reroll TB GM BT right?
if so is it a ST gain to not reroll TB if you have MFD skilled? (for context: i want to see if GS + MFD could be better ST than GS + DS)

also another thing is it a dps loss to overcap cp to get max CP with BS?
(4cp > BS for Vigor and 5cp > BS for DS - i think its a dps loss for sure with Broadsides up cause you overcap 2 cp if you have already a BS on the target but maybe 1 could be fine)
(if possible checking if its worth to pool energy aswell for emeni buff)

#

(bs = bonespike)

#

also not sure about default profile for dungeon slice but i played plaguefall 14+2 and 15+2. one with DS one with Vigor.
the one with Vigor was way smoother (mostly because of BF uptime i guess) but maybe its just feelycraft

lean talon
pastel sundial
#

so you would even reroll SS and RP? @lean talon

lean talon
#

RP yes, i didnt sim SnC but yea probably

knotty oriole
#

Definitely a tricky topic, since I'm pretty sure that BS/RP/TB was at least equal on a number of gear setups I looked at recently

#

Since we're only talking about like 0.2% I tend to err on the side of less rerolling than more

#

Realistically we aren't actually rerolling nearly as aggressively even with these rules with CtO though because we have 2 buffs up quite a lot

#

Even on that Keep BS/TB sim basically it's only rolling every 26.49s

#

Which is basically just the 3s low duration rule

#

Most of the time

#

Average interval on the BS/RP/TB case is 28.14s

lean talon
#

Yea looks like as long as you arent keeping gm/bt any reroll logic is pretty much fine lul

pastel sundial
#

fair enough - which would leads to : reroll gm/bt for sure.
about TB its tricky in dungeon slice since it has some sort of value for AR uptime in dungeons - especially with prideful/boss prep

#

@knotty oriole any thoughts on the bonespike cp thingy?
worth pooling energy + going for 5th(vigor/mfd) or 6th (DS) CP even if you lose 1 cp?

#

(by default or at least before BTE)

fluid ginkgo
#

When you sim Memory of past sins, its assuming you have no other users of the trinket correct?

noble pendant
#

correct, same with heraldry

latent hedge
#

has consideration for master assassin buff on SnD/RtB been looked at? changing the RtB line to actions.cds+=/roll_the_bones,if=(buff.roll_the_bones.remains<=3|variable.rtb_reroll)&master_assassin_remains=0 gives a slight gain for DungeonSlice in this profile with no change in Patchwerk (both with target_error=0.05, likely because lower MA uptime means less change for this to have an effect). Might also be worth a consideration for SnD though the effect would probably be even more minor, however both changes are quite easy to play in reality as well so even a minor gain might be worth it.

📎 unknown.png
knotty oriole
#

Will investigate

solar swift
knotty oriole
#

The threshold for 4T for Black Powder (or more specifically spell_targets>=4-debuff.find_weakness.down) was tested before the Finality bug "fix"

#

So this probably depends on Finality I would wager

#

Especially since the fix just made Black Powder better in general compared to previously

solar swift
#

Got it, it's just still in the nightly build

knotty oriole
#

Since I last tested the threshold back on Nov 27th looks like

#

So yeah I could definitely believe it goes down to 3T now with Finality, but may need a legendary check condition

#

In theory it shouldn't matter (e.g. BP and Evisc gain the same from Finality) but since the bug just makes Black Powder gain more

#

I'll test tomorrow but your changes seem logical to me

#

That prio target difference is pretty huge though lol

#

I'm personally not a major fan of the SS cycling

#

At least the positive side is that as our crit goes up that should become less important.

#

Considering "SS only main target / 4-FW BP" is quite close on the overall and the highest on prio.. I'm slightly tempted to make that the default behavior.. But I will try some more things.

solar swift
#

does the sim have conditions for checking the number of targets with FW debuff?

#

or only remain, and up/down

knotty oriole
#

Yes

#

I added one, but the APL doesn't use it yet

#

fw_targets

#

on black_powder lines

#

Added it at the same time I last updated the APL, figured we may need it at some point 🙂

solar swift
#

nice)

#

for bp checking ya

#

mb with 2 fw target

#

bp>evis

#

ss main target and 3fw bp seems good

knotty oriole
#

That seems pretty good

#

Nice find 😄

solar swift
#

mb add fw_targets condition on rupture skip line too? i think it's dps loss use 3+ ruptures after sod+storm window

weary scroll
#

I think the Infinitely Divisible Ooze trinket sims incorrectly. The sim shows it isn't critting, but in game it does, and the pet looks like it has its own crit at 20%

📎 Noxious_Bolt_Simc.png
knotty oriole
craggy zephyr
#

got a 223 cube trinket, i heard this is pretty good using pre.pull a swapping to another trinket, is this simmable?

civic mango
#

If you swap your trinket then you will lose the buff

#

I've been informed that this doesn't apply to cube

#

But the vast majority of trinkets, ocarina for example, behave that way, and my opinion is that it's an oversight that cube works differently

craggy zephyr
#

yea i know, i just wanted to know if it's worth to use this trick or not

civic mango
#

I mean, yea, if it works, then it's definitely worth it. I'm trying to think of how I would implement it into a sim

golden briar
#

there's 0% chance it's not worth doing

raw knoll
#

IQD doesn’t lose the buff. have a trinket gear set and a non IQD trinket gear setup. use it prepull and swap prepull.

some specs can game legendary effects in a similar way.

civic mango
#

Can't swap trinkets in keys, though, so you'd only be able to do it for the very first pull and then in raid

#

Still quite useful

lean talon
#

Some small AoE/Blade Flurry optimizations:

Casting Flurry 1 second before it expires instead of letting it expire and putting flurry up again is a small DPS gain and gives 2% extra flurry uptime over a 3 minute AoE sim:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oZ9bKWvLjzgzeA2ecGNXi9

moving blade flurry to the top of the CD priority list is a pretty sizeable gain for a 3 minute AoE sim: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9gXoz5Nbos1Xa7jkbymhcm

both changes combined: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4kGRJ5ruLs4xw97xpgDEeY

edit: turns out i had dreadblades talented at first, but i redid all the sims with normal talents (2132122) and the gains are basically the same breadblade

knotty oriole
#

Interesting. I had tried moving Flurry to the top the other day and it didn’t seem to make any difference.

lean talon
#

maybe its just the specific duration of the sim? i noticed that the APL did ambush vanish ambush before putting up flurry so i thought that doesnt seem right

knotty oriole
#

Yeah could be

#

Don’t think there is any downside

#

It made sense to me too

lean talon
#

i tried putting AR higher in the priority list too (since its off GCD too, i dont see a reason why we would use it after vanish > ambush) but didnt find a gain

knotty oriole
#

Doesn’t it get used precombat now?

#

I thought I moved it back to the precombat list

lean talon
#

no, since it takes us out of stealth

knotty oriole
#

Now that it’s off gcd

#

It doesn’t remove from stealth anymore iirc

lean talon
#

it does, only celerity procs dont take you out of stealth

knotty oriole
#

I assume it could just be related to the new refresh condition since that’s most of the gain anyway at 0.2

lean talon
#

this is without the refresh condition

#

only changed the order in the Cooldown section

knotty oriole
#

Huh

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

I specifically tested this not too many days ago and it showed neutral.

lean talon
#

i did both things seperately to show that both individually are a gain

#

idk lul

knotty oriole
#

I tested it when I moved GS and Sepsis within the build restrictions

#

Odd

#

But anyway easy enough change

lean talon
#

ill try it again from a fresh APL just to make sure i didnt change anything else in those APLs but im pretty confident i didnt

knotty oriole
#

I can confirm in a bit no worries

#

You got some sekrit Dreadblades tech? 😛

lean talon
#

i tried but couldnt make anything happen unfortunately lol

knotty oriole
#

Actually one thing did change now that I think about it. I don’t think I tested after we shifted the reroll conditions again.

#

Wonder if the TB prio now biases this

#

Since BF will likely be up more often, could make sense

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

I will go with the TB theory for now 😄

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Hmm

#

That seems very narrow. I assume this is just a case of accelerating Flurry uptime very slightly?

#

How many targets do you need for that to be a gain? If it’s 0.2 at 5T it must be pretty high right?

lean talon
#

yea this is so you dont waste any CP so you prevent some situations where you cant keep flurry up. could maybe even refine this to only force finish at 4 CP during low energy/CDR moments, or even only if the CD of flurry is lower than the duration of it or something but thats too complex for me

#

i havent checked with lower target counts

gleaming fern
#

It would definitely open up the room for further optimizations, i.e. finishing at -1 with BS/Opp when BF CD reduction is not an issue, but going 5+ to get it up just that little faster when its down/close to expiring

knotty oriole
#

I’d check but I’m on my phone atm

gleaming fern
#

and opens up more questions regarding aoe gameplay in situations where after finishing, BF is at low cd. is it potentially worth finishing at 2CP?

lean talon
#

or also forcing max CP (maybe even if its a guaranteed overcap) if you can only get 1 more finisher into your current flurry, so you reduce it by an extra second before your next finisher

gleaming fern
#

ye

lean talon
#

but yea i can only do basic stuff with the APL unfortunately

gleaming fern
#

does BF initial dmg flurry?

lean talon
#

not anymore

gleaming fern
#

mkay

#

wouldve explained the slight gain over letting it run out before BFing

knotty oriole
#

lol

#

That bug was wild

lean talon
#

and then a slightly above margin of error loss on 2 targets

knotty oriole
#

Alright

#

Gives me some starting points to check how it works in DS with some conditions

knotty oriole
#

@noble pendant I'm not totally convinced the Sepsis thing might not just be a display issue fwiw.

#

Looking at MG damage, it seems like it might be benefiting correctly even when the stack doesn't update

#

This was a case where I didn't get additional stacks according to the buff

noble pendant
#

interesting

knotty oriole
#

I have a hunch that single proc from the hit is just messing with the way the stacks are sent to the client

#

But the async value on the server may be correct

fluid ginkgo
#

does anybody know if the sim for Niya's tools: Poison has you interupting whenever possible for the proc?

#

on casting patchwerk

boreal patrol
#

Yes, it's absolute best case scenario value

fluid ginkgo
#

thankyou

shrewd crater
# lean talon another thing <@!210784027752398848> made me check: always finishing at 4 CP wit...

@knotty oriole in case you didnt check that yet:
I found a greater gain by forcing BTE with 5CP with actions+="/run_action_list,name=finish,if=(combo_points>=4+cooldown.between_the_eyes.up)|combo_points=animacharged_cp". Hope that helps :)

Even in ST: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aFMUoeETNuBDdnjPLBc1pw
Another 0.2% in AoE: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pURZMHrkquMVZ8E3DfFRkw

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 5,263 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 14,776 DPS - Raidbots
merry cloud
#

Dunno what I am missing but in Assa report number of PB procs and expected value of PB procs from combo points spent don't match.
For raid profile report shows 49.4 ticks -> 12.35 procs since 4 ticks per bomb
For combo points spent on envenom and rupture it's (229.4+55.1)*0.04 = 11.38 procs.
Number of PB procs from ticks should be not greater than via CP since some bombs may procs at the very end of the target hp and not deal full 4 ticks, but damage shows almost 1 extra PB.

lean talon
#

the APL is still trying to finish at the anima charged CP with slice and dice, and while its not really a noticeable damage loss (because it doesnt happen very often) i still think its worth it to fix this because its super awkward and might give people looking at the APL a wrong idea

📎 unknown.png
knotty oriole
#

I mean the Sub APL finishes with SnD at all kinds of CP thresholds because it really doesn’t matter. All depends on if it’s refreshable or not. If there’s no DPS difference I’m not sure it’s worth changing. But will keep an eye on if there is an easy fix.

knotty oriole
merry cloud
#

yeah, without ER it checks, ty

lean talon
#

with the sleight of hand conduit (in combination with count the odds if that matters), rolling any single buff is an 11 dps gain vs the current reroll logic with quick draw and deeper stratagem talented. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/syuk2QHopKKq58piEYMQxL

with ghostly strike and MfD, rerolling every single buff is about on par with the current logic https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vJVXTj6yVATvum6CsPtC9C

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iyqXYknrm1De2CKRLf8r61
again 11 dps with ghostly + deeper stratagem

seeing as there is about a 5-10 dps different between the conduits for the 2nd slot, this should make the choice for the 2nd conduit easier

knotty oriole
lean talon
#

yea those are the conduits i have. im not comparing the conduits anyways so dont think it matters

worthy pilot
#

ok i asked guy about it earlier in outlaw channel but i have visual evidence of it now and im not sure why its happening. IK its hekili but the hekili profile is based off the apl so im not really sure why it would be rerolling when its not supposed to. wondering if anyone else can help me find why

#

here isd a clip of it recomending me reroll twice while having conditions that would (i believe) keep the TB normally

#

the apl is from jan 1st so im not sure if it has bneen updated or fixed since

knotty oriole
#

Probably the Hekili detection on RtB time remaining

#

Since the "container" buff is hidden

#

We had to implement special handling for it in HeroRotation

worthy pilot
#

yeah thats what im thinking aswell.

knotty oriole
#

Probably just need to ask them about it

worthy pilot
#

what was trhe fix for HR just curious

#

code or actual addon fix'

knotty oriole
#

Had to keep track of the RtB duration based on the hidden buff events refresh/applied events

late willow
#

It is that Koji

#

Its the RTB < 3 line in the APL for Hekili

#

You can lower that number to 1

#

and it fixes it

worthy pilot
#

i opened a ticket on github for hekili and he pushed a beta that seems to have it fixed. by sorting longest buff duration instead of shortest

#

ran a key and like 30 minutes on training dummy and couldnt replicate the bug =]

plain coral
#

Hello hello !

Not sure if I'm missing something but in this screenshot the sample sequence shows that the Shadowmeld Ambush is only giving a 5sec Grand Melee buff (from CTO). It seems this doesn't match the in-game behaviour. I'm testing on dummy and it consistantly give a 15sec buff, and yes I made sure that I wasn't swaping from Shadowmeld to Stealth.

I need to do more test in raid environnement to make sure the combat drop isn't doing wierd things.

https://i.imgur.com/TODvvnu.png

Imgur
knotty oriole
#

hmm. I was told this didn't work, but if you can confirm in a raid encounter that would be great.

#

I'm not Alliance so can't really check

plain coral
#

I'll try to yes

knotty oriole
#

Easy fix if it works, just let me know.

plain coral
#

I just tested on the Tank dummy that doesn't drop combat with Shadowmeld and it was giving a 15sec buff as well. I'll test in raid environnement tonight and i'll try to get you a log.

lean talon
cunning sparrow
#

I'm getting 15s on my orc as well though monkahmm

lean talon
#

From your orc shadowmeld?

cunning sparrow
#

no, just from normal stealth and vanish

pulsar obsidian
#

UR ORC NO SHDWMLD?

#

the point of this conversation is that they are saying shadowmeld functions as stealth for the purposes of that conduit

cunning sparrow
#

sorry, I traded it for my orc worgen form

#

oh, misunderstood, apologies

pulsar obsidian
#

but the sim does not think it does.

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Ok thanks guys. Change should be in now.

lean talon
spiral light
#

Have you noticed the bug with sepsis/vanish and shadowstrikes? I can shadowstrike for free without using up my sepsis after using a vanish shadowstrike and I can replicate it every time.

grave wharf
spiral light
#

Ah cheers! @grave wharf

civic mango
#

Sepsis stonks

#

but yea, outlaw can do it with ambush as well

regal agate
#

It works on all 3 specs

civic mango
#

there are 3 rogue specs?

noble pendant
knotty oriole
#

I mean that's just the Sepsis Ambush right?

noble pendant
#

(that's with MA for single target, I'll do more testing regarding EP/MP after raid)

noble pendant
#

it should've already ignored sepsis ambushes

knotty oriole
#

For MA that was previously a gain

#

So that wasn't really unintentional

noble pendant
#

yeh idk, I'm just running around squashing the ambush stuff, cause ambush bad

knotty oriole
#

Like if it's getting that far into the direct list it means it's either gonna Ambush or Mutilate

#

I'm surprised Mutilate would beat Ambush atm

noble pendant
#

well the thing is that it's getting there by way of "I need to generate" and it's doing that from vanishes

#

so you're in an MA window

#

and it decides to ambush

knotty oriole
#

Mutilate is half the DPET and the same Energy cost so now that Ambush awards 2cp I've not previously seen that as being a loss but I'll look into it some more

noble pendant
#

cool thanks

spiral light
#

I think the assa rogue apl is super random when paired up with subterfuge + ma. It's like it doesn't know what to do.

noble pendant
#

it's not that bad, there's just some covenant and ambush interactions that are weird

#

but aside from that, it's really fine

spiral light
#

Feels random using sepsis > shiv > rupture back to back on 0 cp and whilst sepsis is in MA window. Not sure about the numbers but using Muti/Ambush > Sepsis > Rupture > Shiv feels much better, giving more value to MA and getting a 4-5 cp rupture out as well.

#

https://gyazo.com/d5dc9c921bdd9536c72c69f1fba7fd91
So instead of this you'd do:

garrote > muti/ambush > slice n' dice > muti/ambush > sepsis > rupture > shiv > vendetta > muti > vanish > garrote > env > muti > env
This way you get 4 cp slice n' dice, 4-5 cp Rupture and 2 envenom casts inside the MA/Shiv window

Gyazo
Gyazo
#

Not sure what the numbers look like if it's done like in the apl, but it feels really clunky and feels like you miss out on the MA windows completely.

knotty oriole
#

I mean nothing in the APL is "random" but I can understand it looks unintuitive at times. But that's somewhat what you can expect for pairing two things that don't mesh together super well tbh. What feels better isn't really of much concern here. If you can prove something out as a gain, then we can look into it but very few of these types of opener micro-optimizations make any difference.

#

@noble pendant I think likely a master_assassin_remains check is probably better here looking into some other combos

#

e.g. actions.direct+="/ambush,if=variable.use_filler&(master_assassin_remains=0|buff.blindside.up)

#

Think it's just a CP threshold thing

noble pendant
#

yeah, I was on a 10 minute break when seli mentioned something on stream, it was a spur of the moment thing

knotty oriole
#

Sepsis Ambush seems still worth using

noble pendant
#

odd

knotty oriole
#

That's about 0.2% better than your version in some combos

#

Like Elaborate Planning + MA

noble pendant
#

yeh makes sense

knotty oriole
noble pendant
#

wtb "ambush now hits with both daggers"

knotty oriole
#

I think the main thing I need to look at more with the Vanish timing is trying to delay slightly to fit in the Sepsis bonk

noble pendant
#

there's no timing thing with shiv/sepsis right

knotty oriole
#

Normally Sepsis gets used immediately but Subterfuge delays it

spiral light
lean talon
#

I took a second look at the non-quickdraw Pistol Shot optimization. With Deeper Stratagem, using Opportunity at <90 energy instead of <45 is a 0.6% dps increase, with MfD it still is a 0.3% dps optimization to use them at <75 instead of <45 (though <80 and <90 are sidegrades)

This is true for Ghostly Strike and Weaponmaster setups:

Ghostly + Deeper Stratagem: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/i5RnFvVXZ1kE2FJcsgejzR

Ghostly + MfD:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9ZM4hu8BStAaRRdbe31Ckj

Weaponmaster + Deeper:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pp2AScU9rxWZ7cQM2R2JQi

Weaponmaster + mfd
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/reNxWsNP9sXEhAsocQp6nq

knotty oriole
#

Hmm. Slightly unsure about the causality here.

#

Logically can’t really see any reason for a difference in performance of an energy condition for DS vs MfD so I’m not totally sure it is related to the energy threshold specifically or just some other timing issues.

#

I’d suspect an energy time_to_max criteria might be more appropriate to what you’re experimenting with. The energy threshold was just checking vs. SS affordability whereas what you’re showing is seemingly more an energy capping condition.

lean talon
#

i tried a time to max and the gain was way smaller

knotty oriole
#

Likely an interaction with current energy Regen rate plus combat potency.

lean talon
#

and yea, i do think that skipping pistol shots is good for preventing capping on energy, not to "bridge" the time in which you cant cast sinister strike

knotty oriole
#

1s to max sounds too low since a combat potency proc would be wasted at the upper bound

lean talon
#

i tried 2s before

#

anything between 1 and 4 lul

knotty oriole
#

Then that makes me feel even more like this is an artifact of some other interaction then because if it’s not related to AR and not time to max then I don’t totally see how the energy threshold of say 90 is relevant.

#

Since that’s basically “all the time not in AR” 😛

lean talon
#

i did "not during AR" too lul

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I saw

#

I’ll poke around with it some more after meetings

lean talon
#

but yea the standard APL casts 33 pistol shots in a 5min sim, the <90 energy one casts 43

#

and all i changed is the pistol shot line so i dont see what else would be the factor

knotty oriole
#

Just seems odd to me that like “always is horrible” “not during AR isn’t any better” “time to max isn’t better” but “sub 90 energy which is basically always not in AR” is better. 😛

#

Trying to connect the dots as to what causes that specifically

#

Or why DS vs MfD would matter if it’s not like a CP threshold thing.

lean talon
#

yea i was surprised when the difference was so much bigger with DS too

#

ah one second, i was wearing deathly shadows instead of celerity in that sim. not sure if that has anything to do with anything but i should really check my character string before i check stuff like this lol

knotty oriole
#

lol

#

Who knows

lean talon
#

also you can see really nicely how the less restricting the rule is while still preventing capping energy, the bigger the gain is

📎 unknown.png
knotty oriole
#

Well, that's why I would have thought an expression based on regen would be better but I dunno

lean talon
#

i mean time to max is still a big upgrade. maybe need to just find the right number

📎 unknown.png
knotty oriole
#

lol

#

I also suspect if we are pushing PS more we will need some Triple Threat conditions...

knotty oriole
#

@lean talon I suspect something like energy.deficit>(energy.regen+10) might be the way forward

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Think you must have messed up since it was looking good to me 😛

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

pistol_shot,if=buff.opportunity.up&energy.deficit>(energy.regen+10|combo_points.deficit<=1+buff.broadside.up|talent.quick_draw.enabled)
Your parenthesis in in the wrong spot

#

pistol_shot,if=buff.opportunity.up&(energy.deficit>(energy.regen+10)|combo_points.deficit<=1+buff.broadside.up|talent.quick_draw.enabled)

#

When I tested it, it looked like a sidegrade to your top criteria but I didn't test every combo, just 3-4

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Basically if it won't waste the combat potency energy

lean talon
#

energy.deficit>(energy.regen+10) means if the missing energy is more than whatever you will gain in the next second + 10 right?

knotty oriole
#

Yes

#

energy.regen is in energy per-second

knotty oriole
#

@lean talon @noble pendant Changes discussed in here over the last day for Ambush and Pistol Shot should be committed now.

noble pendant
#

Is that ambush change = not ambushing without blindside at all (e.g. ignoring the sepsis proc/MA stuff entirely)?

#

I remember you were saying ambush from sepsis was still a gain, but I couldn’t find the same thing

knotty oriole
#

actions.direct+=/ambush,if=variable.use_filler&(master_assassin_remains=0|buff.blindside.up)

#

Is what I went with

#

It was minorly better with some builds

noble pendant
#

Yup, sounds good, thanks again koji

torn dome
#

Just came across this odd one

noble pendant
#

That’s probably hitting the mutilate stealth line that I found a while back. Mutilate in subt with <=3 cp. I would check in the html, but I would assume that’s a garrote, no crit mut for 3, and then another mut so it can finish

torn dome
#

What Im talking bout here is muting with bs proc up

#

Aka waste

knotty oriole
#

Probably the stealthed cases would need something special for this

#

Provided it's still a gain

noble pendant
#

Oh I see, that’s blindside proccing from the first mut not the second peophammer

#

I can look into it in a little

knotty oriole
#

I mean technically the only waste is the potential for a proc, presumably the buff gets used shortly thereafter

noble pendant
#

Probably just need a &!buff.blindside.up or something

knotty oriole
#

So doubt it would be a major difference, but either way this probably needs a second line if it's worth it still in Subterfuge

#

Like an Ambush line above the Mutilate one

noble pendant
#

Yeah maybe

knotty oriole
#

Not even sure it'd be a gain at some CP amounts though

#

Based on what we've seen

noble pendant
#

Ambush is a weird ability

knotty oriole
#

Since that Mutilate check is <= 3.. presumably at 2CP with DS, it may still be better to Mutilate than Ambush

#

But yeah, who knows

#

Just need to check

#

Ambush is funny

noble pendant
#

I’m guessing all these mut > ambush gains are cp related right?

#

That’s the best reasoning I came up with

knotty oriole
#

yes

#

It seems so

#

Really seems to make no difference tbh

#

Opener is basically just "spend 20 minutes getting dots and buffs up so whatever" 😛

torn dome
#

But it looks wrong angeryBOYE

#

Wasting procs smh

knotty oriole
#

Well technically you're only wasting 20% of a proc 😛

#

But probably it may just be best to remove that line and let it Ambush normally

#

Given that there's no DPS difference

noble pendant
#

Something something assassination hit whatever 10% of the time

torn dome
knotty oriole
#

Ah the removal is still a loss with deeper

#

0.2%

#

So likely it should be swapped to a deficit check tbh

#

But anyway still no difference to ambush or not

noble pendant
#

Ambush bad, only ambush with blindside or else Krampus will take your kids

knotty oriole
#

But yeah the fact that Mutilate can still give 4 CP while Ambush can only give 3 CP is better than it used to be.. but still kinda awkward lol

#

shrug

noble pendant
#

Double garrote pepePoint

#

Out of curiosity for reasons, is that in tonight’s nightly or tomorrow’s nightly then

#

Idk when seri rebuilds normally

knotty oriole
#

Kinda random

nimble zodiac
versed valve
#

assa rogue sim openers are pretty weird

#

don't do it

torn dome
#

based on?

regal agate
#

i think it comes down to what koji mentioned yesterday:

I mean nothing in the APL is "random" but I can understand it looks unintuitive at times. But that's somewhat what you can expect for pairing two things that don't mesh together super well tbh. What feels better isn't really of much concern here. If you can prove something out as a gain, then we can look into it but very few of these types of opener micro-optimizations make any difference.

noble pendant
#

I’ve looked into various changes to the openers many times, as I assume koji and others have as well. Opening with sepsis is perfectly fine. I agree with the koji quote fuu posted, but also want to add that the community often over-values openers quite a bit. Logically speaking, it shouldn’t really matter if you sepsis at the start, or 3 seconds later in your opener, when you look at the course of 4-5 minutes. It’s entirely possible that it’s not the most optimal opener, but that difference in dps is as stated before, pretty much insignificant

knotty oriole
#

I think Sepsis + MA could potentially be optimized slightly and it's on my to-do to look into, but I wouldn't think it will be anything earth shattering

nimble zodiac
lean talon
#

I am truly sorry, but after bringing you Gouge for damage, I present to you now Shiv for damage. Unlike Gouge this actually works on bosses, too! Using Shiv as a slightly different second non-QD pistol shot (to guaranteed cap on CP while on low-ish energy) is a 0.2-0.3 damage gain for me with Ghostly Strike and Deeper Stratagem. The gain is still there for QD and/or MfD setups but it is smaller.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ewMsjVx4ut8uV5JMu2us69 (the low prio is casting at <50 energy too, i just changed the priority for it behind ER etc.)

worthy pilot
#

no thanku

#

kil it with fire

willow knoll
#

yeah nobody is doing that

lean talon
#

You were telling people to use ghostly when it was only a 20 dps gain too angery

worthy pilot
#

vaughn since ur good with sims can u sim the ER out of stealth

#

and see if its a dps increase st

#

im curious if the 100% nature of the findweakness is worth it over the rng of getting a cto buff

lean talon
#

Im pretty sure you would need to change stuff in simcraft itself to make ER apply find weakness and i have no idea how that would work

worthy pilot
#

sadge

lean talon
#

Just noticed broadside doesnt work with shiv, atleast not in simc. I assumed it would work in the APL so the gain should be even bigger because right now it is using it suboptimally. Too late for me to look into it now though

📎 Screenshot_20210115-062800_Chrome.jpg
knotty oriole
#

Broadside is whitelisted and if it doesn't work in SimC it probably doesn't work in-game.

#

I don't see Shiv referenced in any of the Broadside spell data

lean talon
#

Yea just had @civic mango confirm it doesnt work with BS

knotty oriole
#

Also no real plans to support the Find Weakness exploit

worthy pilot
knotty oriole
#

It's already been reported to Blizzard and WCL blacklists logs with it, so feel free to use it if you want but I don't see too much reason to add it to SimC

worthy pilot
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ya true

lean talon
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~20 dps gain now

knotty oriole
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I mean not that I don't believe your sims since it clearly works, but I'm having a real hard time figuring out how Shiv is worth it considering its energy cost

lean talon
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Its 20 energy for 1 CP and the damage isnt even that bad

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Its just a slightly worse Non-qd opp proc

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Though i dont quite understand why the gain is smaller for quick draw setups since the non-qd setups basically already have something that fills the same roll as shiv

knotty oriole
#

I mean it's slightly worse than non-QD for like... 1/4 of the damage though 😛

earnest cargo
lean talon
west prism
#

In hindsight it sort of makes sense? Its almost half the energy cost for the same amount of CP. The negatives being that shiv cant proc WM, FW and does less dmg

earnest cargo
#

Yea that's what my initial thoughts were when just checking the tooltips.

west prism
#

it can be especially good to throw out a last CP and finish before going into dance

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tried using it on a few dummies and it felt alright too, its nice to have a cheap CP available for those moments

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Hmm it is set up as a player modifier so I don't see why it would not work.

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I think this may be specific to Dreadfire Vessel using spell crit

lean talon
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i tried it with the shriekwing trinket before and i suspected the problem was with shriekwing

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because the shriekwing buff stays on you for like 10 seconds in simc even after you use it, so i suspected it would use the shriekwing trinket with MA, but the damage would happen outside of it. but the crit didnt work with either

knotty oriole
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Huh, well I think spell crit is definitely the issue although not sure why Shriekwing would use spell crit since it's a physical ability

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Dreadfire kinda makes sense looking at the code

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Ah looks like it was set up as a spell_t anyway

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I think I have a fix, but testing now

lean talon
#

but those trinkets worked with other crit multipliers right? Like i noticed that when i removed the condition of BtE, the crit went down by 10%. So its just an issue for MA i guess

knotty oriole
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BtE is a composite target crit%

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Has no difference between spell and melee

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Just a quirk of WoW mechanics 😛

lean talon
#

huh i didnt even know spell and melee crit were still a thing

knotty oriole
#

For player values they are

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In the background anyway

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Probably can do something like

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actions.cds+=/use_items,if=!runeforge.mark_of_the_master_assassin&debuff.between_the_eyes.up&(!talent.ghostly_strike.enabled|debuff.ghostly_strike.up)|master_assassin_remains>0|fight_remains<=20

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Although dunno if that is actually optimal for stat trinkets so I'd have to check a few to make sure it's not a loss

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For Skulker's it's probably around 0.4% looking at local sims

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30 DPS or so

lean talon
#

nice! if you did it with my sim, thats with a 200 ilvl trinket though while having mythic gear equipped so its probably a bit bigger with higher ilvl trinkets

knotty oriole
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Was with your profile yeah

knotty oriole
#

Hmm bit of a loss with PvP trinkets so I may have to split out the line

lean talon
#

might be able to time stat trinkets in a way where only the last 4 seconds have to line up with MA

knotty oriole
#

Working on a solution to this. A little bit more complicated but should be able to handle stat and non-stat trinkets slightly differently with a bit of expression magic.

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Hopefully should have something in the afternoon

orchid fjord
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Any definitive results for anima-charged CP min/maxing?

noble pendant
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The min-maxing is don’t try and force the animacharge. If it happens naturally, you use it, but you don’t do anything out of the normal to try and land on it

orchid fjord
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How about not using it though for better circumstaces to use it, especially while most of the cooldown on ER remains?

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if i dont have bte debuff, or TB, or AR bonus damage up, or landed on BtE with RP up... don't use it?

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cause most likely one of those conditions will be met within 45 sec

noble pendant
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Outlaw is a little bit out of my field, but I don’t think there’s anything in current apl for forcing animacharge on a specific ability

orchid fjord
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I would like to try something based on the remaining cooldown of ER. Over a certain amount, require condition, under certain amount use it, and if it'll be wasted use a shiv or something to make sure its used.

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buttt.... idk how to do any of that

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Is there like a guide somewhere on how to write into the APL?

knotty oriole
orchid fjord
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@knotty oriole The occasional waste aside (for now) I mean use the 7CP when some sort of buff is up. You have 1 use of a high damage ability every 45 seconds... if there is a likelyhood one of several buffs, or even multiple will be up during that time, it's probably a waste to use it when none of them are up.

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If it's still very likely you won't waste it by holding within the first 15s of the cooldown, then there's no reason to use it prematurely. I don't know where that line is or what buffs qualify as worth it, if any. I'm not sure likely it is the animacharge will be completely wasted or if the gains are worth forcing it as a last resort. (which is very different from forcing it just cause you can)

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On that note, I wonder if the APL accounts for forcing it as a last resort already? I can't imagine losing a 7CP finisher (minus the value of your current CP) is less than the value of a chance at an opportunity proc or something... it basically never happens but it would become more important for testing something like this.

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@knotty oriole Finishing at the highest CP possible means higher damage per energy and damage per global compared to finishing with less. Saving the 7CP or not isn't a comparison between a higher and lower CP finisher. You're getting that 7CP at the same cost, with the same value over not using it, whether your using it sooner or later. The only difference in value is what other conditions are present at the time you use it. Basically, the difference is it's a cooldown.

lean talon
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@orchid fjord right now the APL uses any finisher as soon as it hits the animacharged CP even SnD. It's able to consume 3 and 4 animacharged CP every time but the 2 CP buff expires in 0.2 cases. I did try to make it force the 2 CP with shiv if it had broadside up and the duration of ER was running out but it wasnt a noticeable gain. If you want, you can go from my APL and put in conditions to make it hold the finisher, too

civic mango
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One optimization I could see for ER as outlaw is to never spend your anima charged finisher on BtE in AoE

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because of the reduced flurry damage bug with BtE

knotty oriole
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Possibly. Still gives you higher uptime on the debuff though which can be beneficial for AoE damage

lean talon
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I can check it out later. I remember back when we BtE'd before SnD in the opener, i would not consume the animacharged CP if i didnt have snd up yet, but thats not an issue anymore

orchid fjord
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@knotty oriole with mfd resets on AoE it's likely you'd get the debuff back up before it drops off, or at least where the extended duration is mostly wasted

civic mango
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I mean, I do agree that 7 point finishers are best used on dispatch, but not for the reasons that you're saying

orchid fjord
#

such as?

civic mango
#

BtE flurries for half damage

orchid fjord
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well its crits just dont get the 4x crit multiplier

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on flurry

civic mango
#

right, so half damage

orchid fjord
#

only have damage on crits

civic mango
#

because on non crits it also does half the flurry damage that dispatch does

#

because the ability does half the damage of dispatch

orchid fjord
#

yes dispatch hits harder on average... even after all crit bonuses considered. But BtE is used on cooldown for other reasons that translate to having 7CP as well.

#

so the only reason it wouldnt end up worth it on aoe is because of the crit bug

#

thats a similar question to why we use BtE on CD on all instead of just to keep up the debuff

#

since dispatch hits harder

civic mango
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Because it's too much of a headache to tell if you can get 1 more finisher in before BtE debuff wears off

lean talon
#

because holding it for 1 finisher means you lose like 10 second CDR

orchid fjord
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But BtE costs less so it is more Damage per Energy and also more CDR per energy

civic mango
#

but optimally I would definitely hold BtE until the last finisher of the debuff

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only more DPE with RP up

orchid fjord
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hmm with my math

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on my char

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even without RP

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with 26% crit

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with 20% debuff... since the question is only if debuff is already up

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the napkin math i did from the numbers in my spellbook were:

46% crit (buff included)

average damage per cast

BTE:
3696 (147.8 DPE)
Dispatch
4411 avg. (126.0 DPE)

w/ RP:

BTE:
6212 avg. (248.0 DPE)
Dispatch:
5015 avg. (143.3 DPE)

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and then with the flurry bug... dispatch had greater DPE at 4+ targets, (assuming debuff up, no RP)

civic mango
#

we're only talking about in keys rn right?

orchid fjord
#

not necessarily but what's the difference?

civic mango
#

mfd vs strat, CDR

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mob life span

orchid fjord
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yeah those things matter ofc... haven't figured out whats best for 7CP all things being ideal though

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or simple rather

civic mango
#

so yea, unless you have RP up, I would never use ER on bte

lean talon
#

well you also get longer duration of the debuff

civic mango
#

and even then, you lose out on 20% of the hit amount of damage per target when you press BTE

#

yea but you already have 100% uptime

lean talon
#

no

civic mango
#

in keys?

lean talon
#

also no

civic mango
#

not sure I have a good way to check that in my logs

lean talon
#

even in keys you dont get a steady flow of resets while one target lives the whole time

#

if you are getting a bunch of resets, mobs are likely dying

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except in some special cases

civic mango
#

yea, but you can also just as quickly say that it doesn't matter what your uptime is, because you can't attack the same target the whole time

lean talon
#

idk i think just spending it on whatever is up right now is atleast good enough

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you also lose 7/14 sec of CDR on bte if you finish dispatch while BtE is up

civic mango
#

idk, there's probably a dps gain somewhere in all of this, but then in actual gameplay you won't be able to replicate it. And I'm never the person saying "Well, in real life you can't play like the sim says you should"

orchid fjord
#

mainly in M+ I just save it for a good flurry

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sometimes

civic mango
#

Yea, but I'm saying that I wouldn't press bte if I'm on my anima charged combo point in aoe

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I'd just get to 4 or 5 points then do it

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and use my ER proc on dispatch

#

even with RP I wouldn't

orchid fjord
#

with RP i'm pretty sure average damage per cast of BtE is higher than Dispatch

civic mango
#

it is

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but it's higher by the same amount that you lose on 1 flurry target

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so it's equal on 2 targets to dispatch or bte

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and on 3+ it's a loss

orchid fjord
#

makes sense

civic mango
#

average bte 6100, average dispatch 5000 during RP

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across 3 keys

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same gear in all of them

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done a few hours ago

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6100 bte flurries for 1220, 5k dispatch for 2000

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assuming they crit

orchid fjord
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i'm just trying to wrap my head around this question and the DPE value of BtE... I can't tell if it's higher DPE matters in answering this question. I'm leaning towards no.

civic mango
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so the 2300 bte flurries for 916, and my max non crit dispatch for 4438 flurries for 1775, so it's a huge loss to use your ER on BtE if you whiff the crit

lean talon
#

just to make sure, what you are asking for is if forcing the animacharged CP on BtE is worth right?

orchid fjord
#

yeah

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or should it be saved for dispatch

civic mango
#

so basically we're back to my advice that I would never consume your ER proc on BtE unless you have RP

orchid fjord
#

the start of this was more general tho

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like... should i save it for buffs or something

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or anything

civic mango
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I would not save it, no, just keep building if you land on 2/3/4 and your next finisher is bte

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and use bte like normal

#

I mean unless the buff is about to fall off I guess

orchid fjord
#

wait are you talking single target now too?

civic mango
#

yea, I am, but I don't play kyrian, I'm just saying based on my logs that don't have ER skewing the damage values

orchid fjord
#

i dont think that should matter

civic mango
#

I mean, it kinda does, if we're talking about how to best use the ER buff, logs using ER differently would affect the average cast

#

but anyway, my actual opinion is that it probably matters extremely little

lean talon
#

yea

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its not like this 7 CP finisher is something we build around when we finish at 6 CP most the time anyways

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its just free 3-5 CP

#

spend it on whatever

orchid fjord
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well i dont use DS... so maybe that extra 2 CP seemed like a lot xD

#

i mean

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DS

civic mango
#

a 14 and 9 12s that I did sales of

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last night

orchid fjord
#

and its average value is 4 CP

lean talon
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its not letting any more anima charges expire than normal

orchid fjord
#

nice

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but that is overall

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dungeon slice right?

lean talon
#

patchwerk

orchid fjord
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oo

lean talon
#

if its a loss on ST, its gonna be a loss on aoe

orchid fjord
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well the idea was that its a gain on AoE because dispatch is favored on cleave

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but ya on dungeon slice its -21 dps

lean talon
#

i dont think the BtE flurry bug is in simcraft

orchid fjord
#

is there a simple way to just cut the damage in half on a blade flurry crit

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from bte

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its not uhh super important

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would be better if i just learned how to get these answers myself

#

just seems like a lot of terminology

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but i basically cant play the game for real so i might as well learn about it for now

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also I noticed in the APL you linked a line about not "rolling RTB buffs away"... I didnt try to decipher the actual commands but technically you can't RTB a CTO proc away if you mean casting RTB. It only disappears on drop-off, but you can actually CTO proc -> RTB and keep everything. Just worth pointing out.

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unless you overwrite it.. i guess thats a reason not to

lean talon
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no a CtO buff disappears if you cast roll the bones while you already have a "real" roll the bones buff up. i dont know what you are referring to but this isnt really the place to discuss things like this

orchid fjord
#

the only change I'm seeing you've made for the ER thing is adding this to the animacharged line:

"&buff.slice_and_dice.up&!cooldown.between_the_eyes.up"

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oh cooldown.up means BtE is on CD so itll definitley cast dispatch

orchid fjord
#

oh ! means not

orchid fjord
#

So i ended up figuring out how to test various conditions and couldn't get any that were a gain beyond the ~3dps margin of error. At best this exact APL was +3 dps, and this time you can see it's -3. More limited conditions ended up slightly lower.

(btw I removed the SnD portion of your modified APL @lean talon because it wasn't in the original and I didn't want two variables. The one time I simmed with the SnD.up condition alone it was -2 DPS.)

This was the change in the linked parse that had every condition together.

|combo_points=animacharged_cp&(cooldown.echoing_reprimand.remains<15|debuff.between_the_eyes.up|buff.true_bearing.up|(buff.ruthless_precision.up&cooldown.between_the_eyes.up))

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tWFAWdFxtFDJyV7E77aRJK

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 6,336 DPS - Raidbots
noble pendant
#

that's the action list call for finishers right?

orchid fjord
#

yes

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i just tacked on conditions to "|combo_points=animacharged_cp"