tc-research

[stray bolt]

yes, similar interval

[strong gorge]

As in SnD with Recup still procs

Thanks, that's helpful

[stray bolt]

Besides vial and SnD, stealth also procs healing

[strong gorge]

Perhaps Shadow Dance as well then?

[stray bolt]

possible

[strong gorge]

Which is another thing I'm pretty sure Assa doesn't run

[stray bolt]

in tank dummy combat, i vanish and gets into stealth without getting out of combat. It then starts proc healing

[strong gorge]

Good info, thanks

[brisk plaza]

Are you running soothing darkness tho? Does that effect it or was that confirmed to not be a part of it?

[light void]

Any heal in stealth equipped? Maybe the cloak leech enchant with the bonus heal effect? That sounds weird

[strong gorge]

Iirc leech doesn't proc it, someone tested. Not 100% sure though.

[stray bolt]

no, leech doesn't proc

[light void]

The leech cloak enchant has another heal effect tied to it

[strong gorge]

Isn't that purely out of combat?

[stray bolt]

I'm not sure about this one. I did use dance, symbol and other buff spells, not procing like getting into stealth

[strong gorge]

Alright, thanks.

[light void]

I'm not sure if it might consider you out of combat if you are in stealth for a moment, even if you dont totally drop out

[regal agate]

it should be soothing, the passive snd heal effect (without recup), recup, vial from what i remember

[strong gorge]

Yeah but checking from Laments tests above, he said: "in tank dummy combat, i vanish and gets into stealth without getting out of combat. It then starts proc healing"

[regal agate]

did he use soothing or cloaked in shadows (not sure if cloaked counts)

[strong gorge]

I don't know. But since he tested Shadow Dance as well, and said it didn't proc. Then I would assume no soothing unless he also respecced between there

[round canyon]

The passive effect seems to count as a heal trigger even when in combat and recieving no healing from it

[strong gorge]

Interesting

[stray bolt]

no soothing or cloaked talents

[regal agate]

thanks

[twilit granite]

About the thorn boots, what is exactly making them oversim? From my testing the expected dmg procs are correct and approx the same than simc. It looks consistent and around 5 dmg procs per minute. The healing procs are also consistent and it looks they are 1 / min.

I've tested thorn boots with and without recu, and in both situations snd procs the healing effect without affecting the dmg procs.
I've tested thorn boots with and without snd up, and the expected dmg procs are still similar, around 26.
I've tested if healing procs damage and viceversa and it looks it doesnt work like this, damage procs damage and healing procs healing.

I also compared this result to several logs in live and all of them show the same consistency, around 5 dmg procs per minute (which agrees with the spelldata and simc) and 1 healing proc per minute.

Conclusion: Since snd procs the healing boots and snd has 100% uptime, it will saturate the "healing procs" so it doesnt really matter if we have everything that is supposed to proc it in simc. On the other hand, the expected number of damage procs are the same with and without SND / Dance up.

[lucid helm]

So u tested ingame and the dmg, altho u got healings, was the same as in sims/other peoples logs? This means.. i got bamboozled and wasted a spark

[knotty oriole]

Sims should support SnD healing proc opportunities (even without Recuperator, due to the behavior)

[twilit granite]

I edited my answer and expanded it a bit

[knotty oriole]

So I suspect the rate should be pretty close to in-game unless I'm missing something

[twilit granite]

Is there a way to check how many times a sim procs the healing effect?

[knotty oriole]

I mean it should show up in the report shouldn't it?

The heal is triggered in sims when it happens so it should be there somewhere

[lucid helm]

my brain may not be braining correctly but this would mean that if toxic boots sim better, they actually are?

[twilit granite]

This is the only healing part I found in the report

[knotty oriole]

Do you have a link to the report?

[twilit granite]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c8jSYnkCgyHytZm1UTP5vZ/simc

Oh here:

[knotty oriole]

Yeah not totally sure why the proc rate there is so low, I've seen it at higher amounts before and obviously the SnD healing procs are there in the report too

Slice and Dice (recuperator)

[twilit granite]

Anyway the damage procs are close to what i see in ptr tests and ingame logs

[knotty oriole]

Maybe it doesn't get reported for overheal or something, idk. Let me check locally

Ok, I see what happened

It's due to the proc rules and Recuperator being set up as a background spell in SimC since we had to split the heal and primary cast, even though it isn't actually a background spell (it's tied to SnD so not considered a 'proc')

So the proc rule restrictions would have made it proc less. I'm gonna manually flag it as not_a_proc = true

I think this is probably slightly more realistic based on the logs I've seen

Since most logs seem to be around like a 20-25% ratio

[twilit granite]

Uhm

I was getting sligthly more procs, around 25-27 in 5 mins

And i was checking a rogue with several logs and similar behavior

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AzQxHFqKaG2k71v4#fight=6&type=damage-done&source=12

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/g2bnKTWwGYcNvB64#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=44

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AzQxHFqKaG2k71v4#fight=10&type=damage-done&source=12

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/g2bnKTWwGYcNvB64#fight=23&type=damage-done&source=44

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AzQxHFqKaG2k71v4#fight=21&type=damage-done&source=12

Might be high roll tho

And in my logs i get similar averages

[knotty oriole]

Yeah I mean I'm not sure there'd be any change to the RPPM rate here, proc opportunities are gonna be pretty saturated

All we really have control over in the module level would be the ratio of heal to non-heal

[twilit granite]

Uhm I see, i am not sure how to check the ratio with the limited sample size

[knotty oriole]

I'd say looking at logs though that it seems fairly clear SnD still can proc the heal

[twilit granite]

Yeah I mean I'd expect a bit more dmg procs than 21 in a 5 min patchwerk sim from what I could gather

[knotty oriole]

It's 4 RPPM so idk

26 total procs seems about right?

[twilit granite]

Yeah

The proc was hasted right

[knotty oriole]

It is

[twilit granite]

Yeah I think so

let me recheck

Does that mean is hasted

[knotty oriole]

Yes

I would guess that given the SnD heal rate is non-hasted at 2 RPPM and Rogue GCDs are also non-hasted that it's actually possible for the heal vs. damage proc ratio to be biased simply based on the ordering of proc attempts and how the SnD heal vs. normal damage button presses end up aligning

e.g. let's say your GCD press is at 1.0s and SnD tries to heal at 1.1s, the chance of SnD triggering RPPM is extremely low (only 0.1s since the last trigger attempt) while the next damaging global will have a 0.9s last trigger attempt, then 1s on the next GCD (since SnD is every 2s.)

[twilit granite]

Yeah that rlly makes sense

[knotty oriole]

If the ordering is opposite, say SnD triggering at 1.0s and damaging global at 1.1s and 2.1s, you would basically have almost a 50/50 chance of the heal proc

Pretty difficult to manipulate this though lol

But I

I'd imagine it leads to some odd variance in logs

[noble pendant]

So you’re telling my cut to the chase dps gain cause less snd gcds

[twilit granite]

That's a passive buff to assa 😄

[knotty oriole]

I think basically since the Recuperator HoT is part of the main ability buff, it counts as a non-proc no matter what

If SnD triggered a distinct HoT buff when you cast Recuperator, probably it wouldn't even trigger this stuff lol

Since Thriving Thorns is not set up to proc from procs

It's just kinda an unfortunate artifact that SnD heal is set up this way

[twilit granite]

Uhm then thorn should work with 2p ingame right

because the non proc flag

[knotty oriole]

No I mean the thorn driver itself is only set up to trigger from non-proc stuff

So in theory it should only trigger from actions

But since the SnD hot is on the SnD spell aura it essentially acts like we're casting a HoT spell every 2s

[lucid helm]

@twilit granite can you give tried to read but brain aint braining tldr? Toxic boots oversimming or actually working as intended and if sim says gain it is gain?

[twilit granite]

Its hard to say, I would trust sims unless there is a big sample data

[regal agate]

tl;dr: is that they did potentially slightly oversim, but if you use latest should work now more accurate

[twilit granite]

You should sim with latest tho, koji just fixed them

[lucid helm]

Da real G

[strong gorge]

Also a slight skew when checking top logs in general. Since those are more likely to include favourable luck. Though in this situation it's likely negligible

[jaunty forum]

Hi, is it possible to sim Ominous Chromatic Essence or in example Spoils of Neltharus which active is the best one for me?

[regal agate]

you can change them in the drop down

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ExpansionOptions

^ if you want to put it in manually, this is the option

[jaunty forum]

thanks

[unborn folio]

anyone made custom APLs for specific season 2 dungeons?

[noble pendant]

we design APL's specifically to handle all situations

overfitting to a model is dangerous when dealing with simulations

[unborn folio]

hey Whispyr, good morning. I've heard dungeon slice is not the most accurate way of simming your gear, it's better to sim a few different custom dungeon APLs. Is this even a thing I should be conserned about or is dungeon slice good enough?

[light void]

The value of dungeonslice is highly dependant on the class and the maintenance the apl gets for dslice

Its pretty good for rogue gearing choices

[unborn folio]

btw just as a coinsidence the same discussion is currently going on on the subtlety channel

[regal agate]

Dungeon Slice is a good generalization, it includes single target and aoe parts and stealth between packs.

It is the best way to sim in general for dungeons, if you want to sim something more specific, you can always opt to specialize the sim for it (e.g. can use Patchwerk for pure st or either add cleave or multi-target simulations for pure aoe)

There is also Dungeon Routes, a fairly new approach that is static, it requires a more specialized optimizations than dungeon slice and can easily end up in local maxima (given that there is no variance between simulations)

[knotty oriole]

DungeonSlice vs DungeonRoute sims will offer up extremely similar results for Rogues either way. Anyone telling you different is making a mountain out of a molehill. At best one may favor one talent or gear piece over another when they were already extremely close. Neither will offer shockingly different suggestions.

[strong gorge]

After having played around a lot with DR vs DS in SL. The main difference is that - CD's gets valued higher. AoE gets valued higher.

But its also based a lot around how you design your DR's

[knotty oriole]

The “reality” argument is a bit overplayed. I’ve spent a long time comparing composite sims (DS of various configurations) and “realistic” sims (all sorts of DR setups) and overall gear recommendations and general talent setups usually end up the same.

DR has its own local optimization issues too

[strong gorge]

Yeah. My conclusion was to instead of simming it as a strung together beast. I simmed components that are common.

ST with full cd's + bl.
ST with cd's on.. cooldown

Low target AoE/Cleave with cd's
Low target AoE/Cleave without cd's

High target AoE/Cleave with cd's
High target AoE/Cleave without cd's

[knotty oriole]

Which may intuitively seem like a good idea but “reality” also is not 100% perfectly repeatable in timing unless you are on the top 0.1% of players. So this could be viewed as a weakness. Also means results for one DR are not always relevant for another. Or may just be accidental.

[strong gorge]

And then focused on what situations my team struggled with

[knotty oriole]

(E.g. an APL or talent change is only good because it accidentally delays an AoE trinket 10 seconds which hits a bigger pack)

Since DS is a far more randomized set of timings and overlaps those issues tend to be less common. They still happen (and need to be ignored typically) but not nearly as often as with DR.

[strong gorge]

DR's are imo better at figuring out what damage profiles you want to build your team around. Or timing of different packs.
But requires a lot of knowledge and not at all something you should take from someone else and input your own data in

[knotty oriole]

But a lot of this is just esoteric for people doing APL dev. From a practical pov for “every day” use, it really shouldn’t matter much.

[regal agate]

Is DR implementing downtime too?

[strong gorge]

Yes

That's one of the main draw. And I know Koji worked a ton on the spawner for that

[knotty oriole]

It does. But DR’s biggest issue is complete lack of variation from run to run.

DR is good though and I did help Jayeasy with support for a bunch of stuff to make it a bit more robust and comparable to DS.

[strong gorge]

DR is a tool for someone like Meeres to utilize as prep for MDI

[knotty oriole]

It’s certainly a useful tool but probably nobody needs to stress out about one vs. the other.

Unless you have a very specific reason to as Rosvall mentions.

[strong gorge]

And, it's really useful imo to gain insight on how different strategies/profiles/pulls/timing affects things. As a research tool

(My main research with it was in SL funneling/ST time saves vs. mass AoE classes)

Speaking of, It would be sweet if you could compare the max current hp of a pack vs. the mean hp of a pack and vs the 2nd highest hp in a pack :P

And use those as constraints

[knotty oriole]

Yeah some stuff like that would be kinda interesting for sure.

I think DR is a really useful research tool for sure.

[knotty oriole]

I mean this assumes to some degree “what people generally run” is correct and not just as well. Also how close in value are we talking? Can’t imagine there’s really anything in the 2nd vs. 3rd best ring in terms of DPS.

Frankly probably could run 100 dungeons and never notice the difference for something like that in real life. There’s gonna be a lot of confirmation bias but small gear changes are rarely, if ever, noticeable outside of sims or aggregates. The variance on any given run far outweighs the measurability in-game in most cases.

If also argue that a) target counts matter less than people think and b) real-world target counts are lower than people think because they rarely, if ever, factor in the amount of time packs spend dying.

Because in relative terms the more targets you add the smaller the difference is. Big difference going from 1 to 2. 2 to 3. Etc. going from 6 to 8 is far less impactful. It matters but not as much as people estimate on aggregate.

I’d be interested to know a) what dps delta are we talking about in a DS sim between the two options. And b) does a DR sim of the dungeons you are taking about yield a different delta? (And by how much.)

Typically the biases towards lower target count mechanics are introduced by the ratio of boss time in DS moreso than the target counts in the waves. But that’s part of the goal of the aggregate. People do tend to underestimate the impact of boss damage in dungeons as well.

I'd also probably observe that the differences in cadence between dungeons may not be as pronounced as one might think as well. Using your examples above about Uldaman ("consistent huge AoE pulls") vs. NL (an example of a smaller dungeon.)

Looking at some random selection of top logs on WCL there doesn't seem to actually be a significant difference in terms of Black Powder average target count between them. Averaging out the number of primary physical impacts per BP cast on many NL vs. Uldaman logs and there is essentially no difference at all. They are appear to be in the low 5T average range per cast.

[regal agate]

just to give some context, the ring comparison guffinn talks about is not generalized but very specific to one profile, onyx annulet sims around 1% worse than stat rings when comparing with the highest possible item levels.

[knotty oriole]

Sure, but looking at some quick sims of the damage breakdown here for the Stones and then also looking at average damage in logs for, say, Uldaman, I'm not sure I'm seeing a significant difference. I see 6.2%, 5.7%, 5.6%, 5.3%, 6.9% in the top 5 logs using stones here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/34#boss=12451&leaderboards=1&class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety
Which doesn't see to be significantly lower than some quick looks at DS sims for those people.
I see 5.6% from stones when simming Exuished's gear profile on DS right now...

If there is any difference here, it has to be exceptionally small

(I'd also say there may be a funny perception skew here.. because as per the note 'when people generally recommend a stat ring' yet when it comes to logged runs, 70% of the top 100 runs are using Annulet.)

I mean that figure of 6 per cast seems like a significant outlier.
Next log on the 20 keystone list is 4.7. Next log is 4.8. Next next next log is... 4.7. Next log is 5.6. Then, 4.7 again.

I checked quite a lot of the higher keystone logs when mentioning the 5.x figure above

Most logs appear to be within that ballpark at the higher keystone levels

Obviously there will be outliers in either direction based on pull strategy and route, but on aggregate I'm not sure the dungeons are quite as different as one may think in terms of raw pull count on average over the full length of the key.

[regal agate]

It might be just a matter of gear differences, what is best or good will always come down to what piece of gear you have access to. There are likely a lot of different answers depending on the gear levels and replacement items people have, it is where you can sim for your gear and decide dependent on data points. So i don't think it is a problem with the sim but rather trying to have a "one size fit all" answer.

[knotty oriole]

I think I was mostly unsure about the "people generally recommend" part. Some people recommending is different from a general/common recommendation. I'm not sure this is one that is super widespread atm given how many people seem to run Annulet even in pretty high keys. But idk. Either way the difference here is likely going to be extremely small.

As I noted, I'm not really seeing a significant damage breakdown% difference here in logs vs. DS sims for Annulet contribution so I'm unsure where the conclusion about a potential over/undersim might be coming from, other than just some intuitive thought process.

Nothing is going to be perfect, but this all seems close enough that any differences would be pretty inconsequential

[knotty oriole]

(Also just for reference, the current average BP targets per cast in a DS sim is around 5.2 by the looks of it with the current APL)

[proven sparrow]

Even the bigger pull dungeons like bracken and freehold only reach upto about 6.5 at most

[knotty oriole]

Because packs can overlap in DS

#tc-updates message
This is a little older but I don't think anything significant has changed about the "New" column recently.

[knotty oriole]

Well that doesn't really address the fact that the SmallAdd and BigAdd events are distinct and therefore can overlap periodically

The chart above is how it actually ends up being distributed after all the RNG

[knotty oriole]

We re-tuned the stddev and timing ranges a couple years ago (when I made the post above) to have more variety and randomization of timings/deaths to be a better composite scenario. This ended up bumping the average target count quite a bit over the original lock-step approach

[strong gorge]

Also to reiterate what Koji said. The more you optimize for high target AoE. The less actual high target AoE there will be in a real scenario, leaving you with dead lower hp mobs and alive ST or cleave mobs.

As an example. Taking one of the logs you used.
Filtering on only Trash which exclude bosses.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/b2ayzJFYVdrT67Hk#fight=10&type=casts&phase=-2&source=3
You get 76 casts of BP vs 60 casts of Evis. Similar can be seen in 129 Shuriken Storm casts vs 110 Gloomblades+39 Shadowstrikes
Which is quite a large portion of time spent actually not doing massive AoE.

[warm zinc]

The reality is that blizzards dungeon design atm has very little equal hp mobs in pulls which usually means even when you look at NL first pull, you're really only damaging a few mobs not 20.

A lot of people make the mistake of "it's a 6 target pull so i'm going to sim patchwerk 6 targets" but it really does not work like that

You would be simming the complete ideal scenario where all mobs die at the same time, which very very rarely happens in real scenarios.

And the variance you see in black powder casts even on a per dungeon basis is heavily dependant on rest of the comp aswell, for example in Neltharus there is a lot of small mobs that either can just die to 1 chain or to an evoker using CDs, and then the pull suddenly becomes low target cleave, not the 8 target scenario you were hoping for.

I think dungeon slice simulates this better than whatever else you can sim until dungeon routes gets more support.

[willow knoll]

We don't put this type of critical lenses to patchwork sims and we use them all the time

[knotty oriole]

I mean to play devil’s advocate here, many times you are chaining 1 high HP mob to another pack that is still a lot of active time at ST or 2T while you are chaining which people often don’t consider.

Usually the very big pulls are only very big on the theory that they will die very quickly otherwise the tank will get destroyed. So there’s some upper limit on the amount of time spent on sustained high-target counts in that regard as well.

[regal agate]

Assuming the announced changes are Aura buffs, you can put this in advanced simulation (below your /simc) to see the damage change of the buff.yaml profileset."buffs"+=override.spell_data=effect.179721.base_value=7 profileset."buffs"+=override.spell_data=effect.191052.base_value=7
For Top Gear or other fight styles you can put the following in the header of expert mode:

override.spell_data=effect.179721.base_value=7
override.spell_data=effect.191052.base_value=7```

From an initial look, seems like a ~4% gain in pure single target, this should put assassination more clearly ahead of sub/outlaw.
simulation: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kg6eHszBZpqTyCkr3QfBaA

Similar in dungeon slice, but seems still more noticable behind subtlety/outlaw in output.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/we1Qdt49tgMrKV6Fa2j5q6

[stray bolt]

About The rotten, some potential optimizations:

1. practical sequence: 7cp - flag - fin - ShB - sepsis - SS - Secret - mini pause - dance - GB - evis - SS - evis - SS - evis - vanish - SS - SS - mini pause or a 1s pause - Secret - dance - etc
2. For dance following the sequence, Secret will be ready when dance has ~7s cd with 7cp. Wait for that ~2 sec or continue a GB to fill if energy allows
3. Secret with 7cp when dance has less than 5.3s cd = 7*0.7+mini pause
4. flag will be ready dozens of seconds before a dance, but the sequence can be launched when dance has ~14.3s cd with mini pause considered.
5. for many RNG possibilities, casting ShB ahead of the sequence is a solution to help dance's cd problem. This is majorly considered for boss mechanisms impact.
   Current test result shows a minimum 4.4% gain compared to the current raidbot sim APL. I'll try to get logs and possibly a video tomorrow.

[spiral light]

4.4%??

[brisk plaza]

[stray bolt]

well, it could be another RNG bait. I cannot be sure. His sim shows 91k but his "not good" test shows around 94.5k. I'll try to get a log at least tomorrow. The test pilot is sleeping now.

[spiral light]

91k and 94.5k? Why so low? Also would seem weird to me that adding some "pausing" in between cds would magically show up with 4.4% gains. But prove me wrong tomorrow

I think we're gonna need a bit more than just logs, let's see the sims

[stray bolt]

he has low gear from last season

[spiral light]

Who is "he"?

[stray bolt]

the test pilot

"pausing" is for squeezing secret into dance

like 0.5s delayed dance

[strong gorge]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to use the loadout in the standard apls for testing

[stray bolt]

there are indeed other "holding" moment, which is explained as following: finish early does not give earlier dance but pushing secret into dance since both cds are ready.

[stray bolt]

what do you mean?

[strong gorge]

F.ex
rogue=baseline
level=70
race=tauren
role=attack
position=back
spec=assassination
talents=BMQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIFJSCcgQJBAAAAAAQSAkIAAAAAAASDJOQJJkkkkWKJiEkIRiFE

head=,id=202497,bonus_id=1808,gem_id=192982,ilevel=447
neck=,id=206180,bonus_id=8782,gem_id=192919/192919/192919,ilevel=447
shoulder=,id=202495,ilevel=450
back=,id=204465,ilevel=457
chest=,id=206198,enchant_id=6625,ilevel=447
wrist=,id=193419,bonus_id=8780/8797/8960/8793,gem_id=192919,ilevel=447,crafted_stats=32/40
hands=,id=202498,ilevel=450
waist=,id=204399,bonus_id=1808,gem_id=192919,ilevel=450
legs=,id=202496,enchant_id=6490,ilevel=447
feet=,id=193452,ilevel=447
finger1=,id=193768,bonus_id=1808,enchant_id=6550,gem_id=192919,ilevel=447
finger2=,id=204398,bonus_id=1808,enchant_id=6550,gem_id=192919,ilevel=450
trinket1=,id=202610,ilevel=447
trinket2=,id=204211,ilevel=457
main_hand=,id=202564,enchant_id=6643,ilevel=450
off_hand=,id=202564,enchant_id=6655,ilevel=450

[stray bolt]

test is conducted manual

[strong gorge]

Oh. You mentioned "His sim", confused me. I see how you mean now

[spiral light]

So napkin math. I would love to see some sims

Talking about sims and % gains without actually doing any sims is a bit troll and pointless

[stray bolt]

sure

[spiral light]

Even more so if you don't have up to date gear with current tier tier sets and trinkets and whatnot

90k is an insanely low number

[strong gorge]

Doing manual tests can be good for PoC's. But in general, variance is so extremely high based on just "luck" already that it's hard to come to any conclusions. Esp at marks as 4.4%

[stray bolt]

my understanding is usually a behind manual test is more common, but a "not-good" tryout beats sims a considerable amount is different.

im not saying this is it here. I proposed it as a potential optimisation. It requires some delicate handling in apl about holding, which i dont have the experience about how to program it. If you hate this, so be it.

[spiral light]

I mean we can test it out, but just seems kinda crazy. Comparing one or two pulls to sims with 10 000 iterations is a bit wild.

I'd appreciate tests with much more relevant gear, more tests/longer tests and/or sims to support it

[strong gorge]

If you do 100 sims. Your lowest and highest will differ by like 20% based on the pull

[spiral light]

As seen here, the Rotten build itself already has a 11% variance

[stray bolt]

I admitted it that this may be an RNG bait before. However, if we really talk about it, I mean the cd of secret and dance, from the regular build we can get that dance is syn'd with secret if secret casted as 2nd finisher.
In the rotten build, casting secret as the 1st finisher has already caused desynchronization as the dance would finish early, which is the reason in earlier apl, there are occasions secret is casted at the last second of dance, where akaari's damage is out of dance's window.
pushing secret earlier and squeezing akaari's into dance makes sense and it causes secret's cd finish earlier while dance's cd is not touched.
This gives more room for the build to improve.

[regal agate]

i did test a more strict condition to allow what you mean, but it ended up overall worse

as others mentioned, doing a dummy test and comparing results is very prone to errors, so observed differences in a dummy test are not a reliable way to measure damage differences.
Just to bring one example, if you use the beacon from the beyond trinket and do a dummy test getting a critical strike on all casts will also give you a noticeable uplift in output.

Ofc any input towards improvements is valuable, we can try to implement/evaluate some of the ideas you mentioned but i can not promise you that they end up damage positive.

[stray bolt]

Could you please share the APL input?

So I can study how it falls behind

[regal agate]

I will share results as usual in #1065728795455266888, still you need to have a bit of patience.
It might be better to iterative approach things, so go one step at the time.
Quickly reading over the suggestions seems like you want to add idle/pool periods to the simulation.

[thorny fog]

i can confirm that sending blades a bit earlier around 1 finisher before the combo could be a win because that way you lose less SoD/dance sitting but also keep in mind that you are losing builders with blades later on too and also you have 2-3 globals where you do no builders where blades could have been used later

so chances are it is already in the conditions

[stray bolt]

yes, sending blades earlier will help the cd problems as i said in point 5, where i focused on boss mechanisms is due to my practice experience is gained directly from the elder

[thorny fog]

yes it has also happened me on rashok logs are private but the win would be quite minor likely

[stray bolt]

I haven't tried your latest apl yet. I'll do it soon.
In short, my suggestions is try to pair secret into dance and gain from there, and try to not cost dance's cd in following combat time (before next flag/vanish) where we possibly need to hold (or gb on 7cp if energy overcapping) for ~1.5s in the situation of "isolated dance" (just a 6s dance), and hold flag for a bit waiting for the correct time where double dance with vanish can benefit from flag buff.
Since the delay of dance is like 1second per min, there should be no significant noticiable cast loss from this. However, for the flag, there will be cast loss since flag will be delayed for dances, if compared to flag on cd (I haven't got the time to read how current apl handle the flag yet)

[stray bolt]

The sim was done on a 7min combat time without buff. that's why it was low. Current apl on sim contains casts like snd in dance. I'll try to study fuu's latest apl soon.

[viscid copper]

by pure curiosity, does dark brew increased shadow damage scales on the beacon trinket

well, tested on dummies and it's seems not

[rugged pumice]

No this got hot fixed a beginning of this tier

[viscid copper]

okt y

ty*

[regal agate]

They removed any interaction with non spec spells with this raid release.
This means the only 2 things remaining that interact with trinkets (for subtlety) are:

• Planed execution
• Find weakness

To answer a common follow up question, it is not a damage win to force a use of Beacon during PE.

[next kestrel]

Symbols of Death is technically an interaction right? 10% flat crit

[regal agate]

I think the easiest way to understand it is to just see it as 10% additional crit on your character sheet.

so yes, it is just 10% higher crit chance. Questions about how the spec work also fit better in the discussion channels.

[next kestrel]

Yes I agree

[pulsar shard]

Does anyone know if slimy boots deal damage on any absorb shields?

[noble pendant]

damaging embellishments do not deal damage to absorbs

that would include both boots

as well as like fang on weapons, etc

[shell ivy]

looking at old logs from raz flaring cowl did seem to do absorbdmg during stormsurge at least?

[shell ivy]

also rolling shadowflame appears to work on absorb where boots dont (looked at forgotten experiments for this)

[unkempt crescent]

It does no dmg at all? Sounds like a bug

[regal agate]

both boots have the bug from what i remember

[maiden ore]

So they don't damage the absorb shield but still damage the health behind it, or do they just not damage at all?

[gleaming kestrel]

Not at all

[sick olive]

I had a question regarding Beacon to the Beyond whilst wearing Dragonfire Bomb Dispenser aswell - In regards to our opener, what is the most optimal opener when wearing both on-use trinkets? According to our opener in our Sub FAQ-channel, it states “SS - Beacon - SB - Gloom - flag - rupture … “

But in sims the “perfect” iterration uses it 12 sec into fight, so im assuming it uses bomb trinket first, no?

Tried chaning trinket slots in the sim aswell, since that matters with two on-use trinkets, still same result. Whats more optimal?

[regal agate]

the sim uses beacon similar to the faq.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7o5F5wDVN6sFjv8FWhEdUv

[sick olive]

Oh- mine went a different route, dont know what went wrong there then

[regal agate]

changing the order of use did not opt a damage increase with double on use

[sick olive]

Arh fair

[tough hornet]

I think it's slightly better to go bomb dispenser first due to having planned execution on the beacon hit

As long as you don't lose a beacon usage

[sick olive]

Yeah might be something with that - im not using Rotten build, so dont know if it changes anything

[regal agate]

soviet's option is fine, it did not opt for a damage loss and if you know the fight timing well also shouldn't change the overall

[sick olive]

Yeah, thats good to know, then might be able to line it up better with mechanics and such, gotta test that. Thanks for the quick answers

[thorny fog]

my thoughs on using it on pull are because of sht and extra cps

we get while we cast

[swift zenith]

How can i sim Omnius Essence with not all Buffs Aktive but only like 2?

[regal agate]

you can but you need to do it manually.
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_allies=obsidian/emerald/bronze/azure/ruby
is the function for all buffs.
just remove the ones you don't want to have from the string (and make sure to only have one / between flights)
link: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ExpansionOptions

[swift zenith]

thanks alot

[oak sand]

looking at the onyx vs stat ring pic and sims again, it will probably go down from 530 in st to like 465/450 or?

after nerfs

[regal agate]

it is noticeable lower for subtlety because of the removal of dd/veiltouch/db impact

still enough to stay ahead in pure single target, it is however likely that we replace it next tier

[oak sand]

oh true frogot about the dd/vt/db nerf

aight, ty for the answer

[regal agate]

oh you asked for 10.1.5, i sleeped on that, i need to sim how big of a change it is but there is the possibility that we replace annulet, 40% is quite a big nerf.

[noble pendant]

from what I saw, you'd probably want to replace it on all the specs using current patch rings

probably will want to use a spark or something to fill that gap later on

[oak sand]

ok so i guess im g2g with a ring craft with this spark then

wanted to craft one anyway for m+

[strong gorge]

Should sim that. Regular rings are one of the lowest impact slots

[noble pendant]

was the biggest upgrade for me and a lot of assassination rogues this week

[oak sand]

bracers/belt is only 300dps

socket on ring is even more value then that xD

[noble pendant]

pretty common craft this many sparks in

[regal agate]

socket value impacts rings, so getting a socket already makes up for it

[oak sand]

can we sim the -40% manually in advanced tab somehow?

or do we just wait for simc to implement it into nightly

[strong gorge]

Probably override 404885 base value to 11457 and whatever other one you have

simc wont implement it to nightly, except with ptr flag

[regal agate]

you can sim with ptr=1

[strong gorge]

Should be in Latest now with ptr=1

[regal agate]

it is, so the easiest way to sim it is expert mode:

it is seemingly a small ~0.5% buff for subtlety:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/67qW8QjZmLNcE158xHMSS5

(keep in mind that this also includes the 4% buff)

[oak sand]

Yo quick question about DB vs. Flag
me and @solid summit had a lil discussion about the mastery buff window from flag and the second sectech that you are able to squeeze in

Example:
Flag has 4 sec left, you get the 2nd sectech out on 2-1sec left of the mastery buff window

the question now is

since the sim is always hitting the 2nd sectech in mastery buff window

and you are not always able to hit it as a player in a dungeon setting for whatever reason

we wanted to know if flag maybe gains more value over db because of little things like this

in sims

ty in advance for all responses

[regal agate]

flag just works well with the fight style.
There is nothing unreasonable the sim does that is hard to re-produce in game.
The reason dark brew sims more noticeable worse this season is that the talent got heavily nerfed this season.
It still offers different trade-offs, so it's not a bad choice.

[strong gorge]

On the flip side, in a dungeon the effective CD on flag is also lower. Since it still ticks down as you're traveling between packs etc.

[oak sand]

ok thats g2k that little things like this wont affect it sim wise if you know what i mean

[regal agate]

yes, and if there are details that you think can be adjusted in the sim to improve the result its nice to discuss

however small details usually won't change the result noticable

if anything, a cooldown is more prone to errors than a passive damage gain

what should mean dark brew has an advantage over flagallation

still, flagellation as mentioned works well with the fight style and did so already in season 1 before the nerfs to dark brew.

[oak sand]

aight, got it G
yeah i already thought smth in this direction. mitch is switching from ol to sub for some keys and he asked me about some things but i couldnt gave him a backed and reasonable answer to that specific question, thats why i asked in here before spreading false information

[regal agate]

if you aim for more specific optimizations, it might be good to sim multiple fight styles and compare results

[oak sand]

yeah yeah thats for sure

the rupture thingy in tornado sequence is still relevant with db, if you go into a pack without any ruptures right?

[regal agate]

there is also dungeon routes that allows you to export dungeon tool routes and sim them, there are some problems with that but it might be a nice additional data point to help evaluation

[oak sand]

sheeeesh

i didnt knew that

will def. give it a try and play around with it

man simming is actually fun if you kinda get the grip of it

[regal agate]

you need a weakaura for it
https://wago.io/Yya4XBbl-

but as mentioned, it has its own problems so use it with caution

dungeon slice offers a better way to generalize dungeon runs.

[wintry stratus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv9wHQvJ8wQ
is it good maybe? would sacrifice either 4p t30 or replace crafted head for tier set

[regal agate]

Rogue in general has good survivability tools with feint/cloak and cheat death

[regal agate]

just put in ptr=1 and all changes should be in (use latest or nightly version)

[knotty oriole]

Without testing it’s somewhat difficult to know if the variety of hotfixes to SecTec has left them benefitting from pet modifiers or not.

[knotty oriole]

This on live or PTR?

[foggy merlin]

Yo not sure if thats the right place to ask this but does anyone know why I can't modify the consumables?

I would like to use iced phial of corrupting rage but nothing works and it used to

[olive lion]

Custom APL?

[prime narwhal]

go up into the paste in you have done and find the spot where the consumeables are and delete them

[foggy merlin]

Custom apl is empty

Only thing i pasted in is a /simc

[prime narwhal]

then do what i told you

[foggy merlin]

Well there's none

There's only like gear and talents

No line about consumables

Unless it's labeled differently

[regal agate]

just select corrupting rage if you want to sim with it

[foggy merlin]

Yeah but I can't

It won't change

It's like it's not taking it into account and it stays as phial of versa

[prime narwhal]

its specified in the sim input as to what to use

so he would need to find it and remove it

[foggy merlin]

If I download the simc input at the bottom of the page

The #consumables is empty

[regal agate]

/simc does not specify consumables

[foggy merlin]

I can't even select the simc defaults as the options

[prime narwhal]

no, but what he has imported might have had it specified

[foggy merlin]

Yeah found the issue

I had the rotten apl imported in the quick sim tab

From like a couple weeks ago

But didn't think to look past the top gear tab

It works now

Thanks!

[regal agate]

if you use this one

#1065728795455266888 message

^ it does not modify consumables

[foggy merlin]

Yeah I must have had a previous one

[vocal escarp]

Is there any way to sim execute?

[noble pendant]

there's an execute sim type

[vocal escarp]

Ah ty ❤️

[noble pendant]

normal patchwerk and stuff will execute as normally

as in 100% hp to 0%

[stray bolt]

The latest APL for dark brew has a condition that not casting Secret if CB is about to up during a dance. However, with 6sec dance there are cases that CB gets up during dance but not enough time for cps and Secret. Should this be a loss that not casting secret due to the CB condition?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e77CNoiYY6QwZGbTvNDcKH/simc

In the example, CB will get up at 0:51, which causes an evis cast rather than secret. With 6s dance, there wont be enough time for a CB secret in such scenario.

[regal agate]

it is a side effect of the 6 sec dance duration, something we discused in #1065728795455266888 too

it has no negative dps impact in the sim

[stray bolt]

So a followed WM SS and CB secret with akaari out of dance would be rewarding enough compared to cast secret there?

[regal agate]

the reason secret might fall out of dance is this line:
actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=variable.secret_condition&(!talent.cold_blood|cooldown.cold_blood.remains>buff.shadow_dance.remains-2)
and the line makes a lot of sense if you are skilled into talents that improve shadow dance, i did write a fix for the line in the mentioned channel. It is just a simple condition to check if you are talented into it.

[stray bolt]

i know it is because of this line. since CB is about to ready and secret is muted

[regal agate]

the reason why it happens is that you are not guaranteed to reach another finisher in 2 gcds

for gameplay, you should not dealy secret further than the 2nd finisher

[prime narwhal]

how is it then not a gain to use sectech as 2nd?

[stray bolt]

yea, that's my point and question here, should we change the condition a bit so that we not bidding on a WM SS so that a secret may or may not be cast with CB?

[regal agate]

it is a edge case that does not happen enough to have a dps impact, still something that is easy fixed in a apl update

[stray bolt]

imo for 6s dance we perhaps need to remove the CB condition since we're not casting secret for the 1st finisher and we generally not want to cast it the 3rd either. In case CB is about to up but up after 2nd finisher, it should be a gain to cast secret as 2nd finisher and either keep cb next dance or use it on 3rd finisher

[regal agate]

the change is fairly simple (unless i made a typo):

- actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=variable.secret_condition&(!talent.cold_blood|cooldown.cold_blood.remains>buff.shadow_dance.remains-2)
+ actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=variable.secret_condition&(!talent.improved_shadow_dance|!talent.cold_blood|cooldown.cold_blood.remains>buff.shadow_dance.remains-2)```

[regal agate]

exactly

[stray bolt]

should it be !talent.improved_shadow_dance?

[regal agate]

it should be, fixed

[stray bolt]

thanks. I was switching talents for M sarkareth. considering 10.15 is coming, need to learn this new DB stuff. :p

[hushed vigil]

how can i sim on ptr build pls

[half karma]

bottom

here is outlaw apl

[hushed vigil]

where do i write

[hushed vigil]

this

[half karma]

the box just above you put the ptr=1

[regal agate]

^ if there is a mistake/etc feel free to contact me so i can fix it.

[oak sand]

highly appreciated big G ❤️

[regal agate]

Given that we had updates to implementation on 10.1.5 items in simc (implementation is still experimental for most trinkets and fragment trinkets are generally not well supported).
Some findings.

Items:
/ Mirror of Fractured Tomorrows(trinket) - http://tiny.cc/14w8vz
Is with current implementation the highest simming trinket for Dungeon Slice but only marginal better (~0.2%) than alternatives.(can be obtained on 447 in hard mode)
Accelerating Sandglass(trinket) - http://tiny.cc/34w8vz
Is now simming worse than Mirror for all 3 specs.
/ / Nick of Time(dagger) - http://tiny.cc/84w8vz
Has now an early implementation and is bis in offhand for Subtlety (Single target), Assassination (Single target/Dungeon Slice), Outlaw (Dungeon Slice).

Keep in mind that things might change, it is advised to run your own simulations.

[meager nymph]

I can't see Ring-Bound Hourglass (https://www.wowhead.com/item=193000/ring-bound-hourglass) in either of the crafted inputs

Not sure its its not worth it, or just missed - mentioning it incase it's the latter

[oak sand]

regarding the mirror trinket, is it know which spells it casts? e.g. gb/evisc in st or ss/bp in aoe?

but g2k that i can replace my dogshitty fragment for forti weeks now x)

[regal agate]

It does the following for melee dps:
auto attack: https://www.wowhead.com/spell=419591/auto-attack
physical damage cleave:https://www.wowhead.com/spell=418588/sand-cleave

[oak sand]

im very confused now haha

[regal agate]

it does auto attack damage and a physical damage cleave (the future self npc)

[regal agate]

could include it, not sure if it is needed given that its essentially the same as the other ring.

[proven sparrow]

Ye but the rings are unique, probably should include it

Since technically the bis could be 2 crafted rings

[regal agate]

its easy enough to do, moment (updated below)

10.1.5 Season 2 item Strings for Top Gear:
How to use: paste your /simc in the text field on https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/topgear, copy the content of the text file below your input. Select gear options and press Find Top Gear.

Details:
crafted_gear_reduced.txt - Contains all crafted gear but removes combinations like armor patch. It is easy to add specific ones back by using the + on crafted gear pieces. The reduction allows this to be used on reaidbots without long loading times or lags.
crafted_gear.txt - All crafted gear pieces. Adding this can lead to lag or long loading times.
gear_season_2 - All Season 2 items on the highest obtainable item level.

[regal agate]

update - Nick of Time(dagger) - Make sure to use NIGHTLY or LATEST, the effect won't sim correctly else.

Using nightly, it is now sims bis for all 3 specs in:
- Single Target / Dungeon Slice
- Dungeon Slice (not far behind in Single target)
- Single Target

[robust turret]

What effect does the dagger have

[oak sand]

no effect

just a new tertiary star called timestrike

[regal agate]

Timestrike: https://www.wowhead.com/spell=419737/timestrike?ilvl=441

[oak sand]

@robust turret this

[noble pendant]

Does damage on proc and then again 3 seconds after

[robust turret]

Wow

[noble pendant]

Just a generic damage proc hidden under the guise of a stat

Instead of a big block of text

[robust turret]

Will probably be using it in m+ or is it only good ST

[oak sand]

.

[regal agate]

that question is better suited for the spec channels.

[maiden cargo]

do we know if timestrike can proc off pet hits xdd

[thorny fog]

likely as it works on wl things but maybe we have our special pet

would not be surprised

[oak sand]

i cant give you a 100% correct answer but i assume to 99.9% its not proccing off of pet hits

i mean we/you could ask on hunter dc or so idk

[maiden cargo]

Maybe worth bringing to this channel @proud wadi but sims seem to expect sandglass to be proccing almost double what it's doing on logs.

[proud wadi]

I wish I had the trinket so I could test it myself, idk how much of this is due to downtime or if it's actually oversimming. Can you link me your sim w/ it equipped?

or send me the string for the trinket

and I can sim it on my profile

got it, I'll take a peek around

[maiden cargo]

I can go beat on a dummy after raid but can't now

I thought the kazzara logs would be more useful

If it was rng you'd expect a few to have outperformed the sims

So it's either uptime or the sims are wrong, as far as I can tell

[proud wadi]

looking at the two kaz logs

I think it's a bit of both, at least compared to what I'm looking at in this sim report

[maiden cargo]

So how much do we think it's oversimming by

Echo trink back to bis?

[knotty oriole]

I just checked in a fix for the trinket

Probably was simming about double value for the damage part, but the stat part is obviously a large part of it and would have been fine

So just will have to sim it again

[proven sparrow]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NqBXa2GQRyCrjtdL/#fight=4&type=damage-done&source=1
Did some testing with the doomhammer wq trinket because i happened to get it and its not in simc yet. It seems quite good for its ilvl (from just a couple of test it seems pretty close to what a 424 bomb would be) but not powerful enough to beat out any of our current trinkets

[noble pendant]

If anyone gets the mirrors trinket

That one seems suspicious as well

I’ve only seen like 2 logs of it

But in logs the clone is doing like 0.6% and in sims it’s like 1.1%

Seems to be a difference in attack speed

But I can’t find enough mirror logs atm to figure it out

[spice basin]

I have it do you need me to do something for you

[regal agate]

If you have any logs, they are always helpful

[spice basin]

okay cool

ill run hc with it later

should i use it in place of Beacon on sub?

[livid beacon]

I also have both trinket in case you want to me try them

We running HM tomorrow for our guild reroll, I can go with Outlaw main & try them (won't take risk to try one tonight on our incoming M Neltharion kill héhé)

[onyx cave]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ka2TzQK9G4CqZYhN#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=damage-done&source=22 Mytic 1st 4 bosses with progression using Sanglass trink 441, if its any use

[proud wadi]

that one's already fixed in the sims I appreciate you tho I had to bother poor koji on a wednesday night

[lunar nymph]

Does a sim count multistrike (timestrike) from trinkets besides normal abilities? I'm sure it works on Beacon

[proud wadi]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that question

like does it count procs off of trinkets?

[lunar nymph]

ye, absolutely right

[proud wadi]

yes I don't see why it wouldn't

assuming timestrike takes into account trinket damage

[thorny fog]

it does like soul cap did

and touch of the magi

kinda interesting it works with trinkets

might also want to check if blessing of summer and ebon might etc also slot into time strike

like touch kinda

[knotty oriole]

It’s a generic effect so it should work fine. But it’s only 10% chance or so, so it’s gonna be rather RNG

[vagrant kite]

22 UR with the mirror trinket
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MHRD39nGXPh1rcNa#fight=3&type=damage-done

[noble pendant]

thank you, the issue has been resolved and it's simming properly now

[untold ibex]

do we need/want data on the time rift world trinket thingys? was thinking of looking into this

[finite grail]

hi do we have apl for MDT sims?

[half karma]

yes you can use mdt sims if you want our apl support it

(because it support dslice)

[finite grail]

kk tysm

[hazy yoke]

hi

so this is incorrect: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9hp28ZtoSoF4nu4F3sfa3t

Sandglass simming higher than Mirror

[noble pendant]

Why is it incorrect

[hazy yoke]

"Accelerating Sandglass(trinket) - http://tiny.cc/34w8vz
Is now simming worse than Mirror for all 3 specs."

[noble pendant]

Maybe in dungeons

But every character is a little different

And relative values can often change

Unless you have any evidence of the sim incorrectly modeling either of the trinkets, this is a completely reasonable result

https://bloodmallet.com/chart/rogue/subtlety/trinkets/castingpatchwerk

Bloodmallet also shows sandglass above mirror

[hazy yoke]

Bloodmallet is based on sims. What i was curious about is if raidbots is not updated properly yet

[noble pendant]

What

Bloodmallet and raidbots use the same simulation core

[hazy yoke]

exactly

so if one is innacurate, then both are

but you answered my question, thx.

[noble pendant]

Correct, but the profile bloodmallet is using also shows sandglass as a better option. As mentioned before, unless you have evidence that simulationcraft is not modeling one the trinkets accurate to the game, they are simming accurately according to known theorycrafting and your result is expected

Different characters might show different results

[hazy yoke]

ok, thanks for letting me know. this was helpful

@hasty jackal FYI

[nova island]

seems like the best head slot is crafted head or is there any non-craft that is good enough?

[quasi mulch]

Engi goggles are pretty good

[regal agate]

engineering is crafted too, but you can just use the text file from the pins and add it to top gear

you might find the best option that is not crafted for the spec you want

[nova island]

yeah engi goggles is the good pick

[dawn junco]

Can we sim how much dmg Aug evoker would "give" us? Or atleast Ebon Might ?

[noble pendant]

Not sure this is fully implemented given all the bugs and random dogshit that augvoker is doing atm, should ask the evoker discord for more info on their sims

[half karma]

#1106266712573218856 message

[dawn junco]

I was wondering if there was a way to add the ebon might buff like the PI line in raidbots , cuz at first glance I don't think they've shared how to sim personally, it's more of a graph of sims they have ran. Thank you tho, I'll ask there later

[half karma]

ye its not as simple as pi

[livid lynx]

Is their a way to implement a buff

1500 agility 60% uptime?

In custom apl?

[noble pendant]

No

How would it determine when to apply the buff

[half karma]

You can create a shirt with stat, do 800 agi 100% uptime instead ^^

[livid lynx]

Can you bind it to buffs similar uptime?

Like blade flurry

symbols?

i mean its not accurate

[half karma]

no you cant do that as far as Im aware

the easiest thing you can do is just make fake gear as I said above

its fine for rogue anyway we dont have any burst

[livid lynx]

i mean whats a good uptime?

can they get like 70%?

[half karma]

idk I havent looked at logs

[noble pendant]

Rest assured that the augvoker will try their best to avoid you

Regardless of your ability to sim it perfectly or not

Rogue is not that guy to buff

[livid lynx]

And even if you manage to get that buff working

you dont have the breath buff

mirror buff

etc.

[knotty oriole]

@supple valley is the guy to talk to about this Aug stuff. 🙂

[unique zephyr]

How does the sim calculate blue silken lining and corrupting pot uptime?

[regal agate]

you can set the uptime as parameter

[unique zephyr]

I mean they're health dependent right so surely the parameters for uptime of those could be applied to ebon might

As long as they're achieving the same uptime it should work?

[regal agate]

dragonflight.blue_silken_lining_uptime=x will set the uptime in the sim, the default is 70% (0.7)
dragonflight.corrupting_rage_uptime=x for corrupting rage, works the same as above

[unique zephyr]

Ok but relating to whispyrs statement before

How does it know when to allow uptime

Because those would affect the DPS in the sim depending on when they are active

[regal agate]

i assume it's just a proc rate that reaches the uptime on avaerage, but rly need to ask @knotty oriole about implementation details

[spice basin]

Hello all, I was just curious if the numbers on the actual simcraft page for rogue are accurate?

[noble pendant]

the profiles have been updated, yes

[spice basin]

TY X

[finite sparrow]

You can set both blue_silken_lining_update_interval (default 5 seconds) and blue_silken_lining_uptime (default 0.7)

So every 5 seconds it rolls a 70% chance to enable or disable the buff

Corrupting rage rolls every 1s but looks like it uses some formula to slowly increase the chance of failure over time

[smoky spindle]

How could I get this but for cloth?

[regal agate]

You would need to create the gear list yourself.
But dropoptimizer should already cover most of it.

[smoky spindle]

Yeah but droptimizer uses the gems I currently have equipped

[raw knoll]

make your list and add it to top gear and run whatever you want for combos

[smoky spindle]

I'd rather try to find a list that's already done which I did

But thanks ❤️

[livid lynx]

Maybe Just switch item IDs?

COuld that work?

[regal agate]

the syntax is easy:
# <- at the start to have the item in the list
slot= <- for gear slots
id= <- The id of the item
bonus_id= <- bonus ids, this is needed to add sockets or special effects
ilevel= <- can be used to specify the item level. Can be ignored if you add the correct bonus ids, but it is easier to use the ilevel option.

Example:

#head=lurking_specters_visage,id=202497,bonus_id=1808,ilevel=447```Is a head piece named Lurking Specters Visage with a socket and an item level of 447.

You can get the ID easily from WoWhead (either the URL or can use the "link" option) or can use the chromehead Chrome extension and copy it from the context menu when right-clicking on Raidbots.

Video showcasing it:

If you can't find the ID on wowhead, it is possible to also find them in the game.
The simplest option is to install idTip.
It will add the item id to the tooltip like this:

[livid lynx]

Y, and you could just change IDs in your String with search replace function

With this infos

[regal agate]

You can alternatively also find the bonus ids in the spell data dump, but it is probably not as easy as the above options.
link: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/dragonflight/SpellDataDump/bonus_ids.txt

[livid lynx]

Thats what i wanted to say/ask. That he can get the cloth Head ID and replace it with Leather HEad ID

[regal agate]

probably makes sense to just create a new list unless there is overlap with items

[raven crown]

probably can just go to a clothie discord and find a list somewhere

[regal agate]

e.g. jewelry can be just copied/pasted. It might be easier to just copy the bonus ids.

[blissful dust]

Would anyone be around to help me try and find the cause of what I assume is a bug with subterfuge

[regal agate]

think it is the best to just state what you think is wrong, it is easier to discuss

[blissful dust]

In the opener and sometimes mid pull during vanish subterfuge

Im unable to use ambush

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/K8gFaXr4cJwzm6kQ#fight=last&type=casts&view=timeline&source=447

Stance macro doesnt pick it up and neither does my ambush bind

[regal agate]

is it the first ambush after vanish?

[blissful dust]

The vanishes ambush works

Subterfuge after doesnt

Seemingly not allowing me to cheap shot etc either

[regal agate]

check your action bars, it sounds like a action bar setup issue

[finite sparrow]

may be bugged after you use bomb in subterfuge

stupid discord cropping

[regal agate]

It works fine on the dummy with this macro:

#showtooltip Shadowstrike
/cast [bonusbar:1] Ambush; Sinister Strike
```could be a different factor (like what solo mentioned)

[blissful dust]

Yeah mine also works fine on the dummy

And was working fine all expac until the latest patch

Where we got the buffa

The trinket one is an interesting thought tho

[plucky iris]

the ambush button does go grey or "not usable" right between the frames where u press your bomb dispenser

so i think Solo might be up to something

[blissful dust]

Yeah I was just able to replicate on the dummy

As soon as I trinket its fucked

[plucky iris]

theres subterfuge for you, its got reports dating back to like 2018-19 where some heart of azeroth trait proccing would brick it

[blissful dust]

Yeah even pressing it half way into subterfuge still breaks it on the dummies

[plucky iris]

[finite sparrow]

[blissful dust]

Fucking blizzard spaghetti code man

[regal agate]

subterfuge is sadly something that caused a lot of issues in the past

[blissful dust]

Even if I press teh active on chromatic essence which just cancels after .1s

It still breaks it

[plucky iris]

wonder if this is new or has it been broken be4

like broken as of todays/yesterdays patch

[blissful dust]

I've always trinketed like that

And never had an issue before that patch

Chromatic doesnt even do anything

Just the action of pressing it breaks subterfuge

[regal agate]

a ability timeline would help immensely in the videos, or did i miss it somewhere in your interface

[blissful dust]

I don't have one toggled on rn

I can enable it if you want another vid

You can see my bind in the top left of bars glow as I press it

Ill put on another trink so it shows

[regal agate]

the subterfuge buff stays active, so it only breaks the macro condition?

[blissful dust]

Nah you can see my ambush bind go dark

Its just ambush

[finite sparrow]

sap also goes dark

[blissful dust]

Got rid of the macro

And mashed the button

[regal agate]

okay, so it breaks stealth entirely

[finite sparrow]

some trinkets like the S1 puzzle box used to not break stealth if you had subterfuge talented, maybe they attempted to fix that but caused this

[regal agate]

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1110

^ i documented subterfuge / stealth inconsistency already

[blissful dust]

Does this shit happen for you guys too

Or is it just me

[regal agate]

moment, ill check

does not break for me when using mirror:

[plucky iris]

works fine for me with bomb dispenser

[regal agate]

just to confirm this, it the ordering has seemingly no impact

[plucky iris]

could it have something to do with raids being funky with stealth

[plucky iris]

well that wouldnt make sense since its not working here actually

[fallow raft]

I noticed that whenever a new essence buff is applied when you're in range in group/raid it brings you out of stealth. Unsure if its relevent.

[north cove]

Hello !
I spend something like 1h looking in pins and multiple guides for this aswer.
Didn't found it so i make a try here.
I don't understand my sim here.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oH4TAuz3kjZRUfD44Fe72p
Haste looks to be 3rd in every guides i can found, and still Dj slices or single target ask me to full change my gems and enchants as haste when i made my all stuff around crit+mast.
There some kind of cap about these stats ?

[vast harness]

Stats naturally fluctuate in value as they change (and as your other stats change). The sim is accurate, but keep it mind if it’s recommending haste, it is unlikely to keep recommending haste as you change your gems and gear. Assassination values some haste, but that exact amount isn’t the same for everyone.

If the robot says that pieces with haste are better, then for you, they are better. That doesn’t mean they always will remain that way as you continue to gear

So you’ll want to keep simming as you gear up. You could also consider changing your crafted pieces so one or two of them have haste, and see what the sim thinks, stats are stats and doesn’t matter where they come from.

[north cove]

Ye i probably shouldn't think that much and just follow the bot. But i like the understand why, this think and not another. :)

[vast harness]

My set of 446 gear has a couple of pieces with haste because my sims preferred them, but eventually it stopped recommending haste on gear after I got a couple pieces

[north cove]

Ok thank you. I guess i'll try to put some haste back and see what Mr Robot telling me

[vast harness]

I can’t explain the why myself, beyond that having some baseline of haste for sim is more valuable than the other stats to a point

[lost echo]

the more energy regen you have, the less you need it, so you want haste until you have enough energy for other stuff to be used better

[half portal]

Haste isn’t just energy regen though, so idk about that. Though that is an MO for it’s priority so

[stray laurel]

not sure it's the best channel to ask but what are docker builds?

Also i'm looking if it is still possible to run simulations from your own pc? last time I tried something like this was more than 12 years ago..

[regal agate]

docker is a software that allows you to run containers (basically bundled executable virtual machines) on your pc

so essentially a easy way to run simc without a complicated setup process

(but with the requirement to use docker or a simialr runtime for it)

[stray laurel]

so it's an alternative to the main thing?

[regal agate]

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/nightly/

you can just download the windows executable from this link

[stray laurel]

or is it a way to bring an ui to simc I'm wondering?

[regal agate]

docker is more a software used in software engineering or for servers/automation

[half karma]

are you sure you want to run sims from your own pc tho, the use cases are extremely limited nowadays
raidbot can do everything and anything you would want to do most likely

[regal agate]

maintaining it to be up to date is also harder localy

[stray laurel]

i'll try that thanks for the answers

[stray laurel]

it really is just out of curiousity

to see how much slower it runs etc

if I can tweak the number of iterations or anything else I can tinker with really

[half karma]

the issue with local simc is that you dont really have any UI, you have to do everything via text

[stray laurel]

that's what I was wondering too, I remember having some kind of ui for whatever sims I tried on my feral in wotlk or cata

i'll see

thanks again

[half karma]

as far as I know even the graphical interface is kinda useless

[regal agate]

it is more like advanced simulation

[half karma]

its basically this https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/advanced

[regal agate]

than raidbots top gear

[stray laurel]

I see

[gritty fjord]

I personally have been using the simc software for everything because I can't afford another sub just for gear. It's not as user friendly for the average person but I actually prefer it when messing with apl stuff for personal use. It can't do top gear or droptimizer (that I'm aware of) but you can still get a pretty good idea of what you want with stat plotting. In SL you could use SimcScripts for combinations, that was a very fun tool to play with and I wish it was still updated but I understand it not being worth it with it being free and with raidbots existing.

[regal agate]

you can do almost everything you mentioned without a raidbots subscription

the limiting factor for raidbots is the iteration limit, it means you will need to split things up

[gritty fjord]

I was doing that before but it was pretty annoying and I imagine it's worse now with the new talent trees. I understand the iteration limit though and the price is good for what it does. I'm not knocking it, I just feel that I can get nearly the same results without needing combinations anymore and I don't have to deal with queues with the software.

[regal agate]

fair

[viscid oracle]

If you set your browser to submit to tab on middle click it makes it even easier

Site supports it by default too for the most part too i think

[worn needle]

do you have a link to this SimcScripts thing if it's open source? was contemplating making some hacky way of doing combinations locally as well

[gritty fjord]

https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/SimcScripts

I remember adding trinkets and legendaries was pretty easy but I'm not sure what all would need to be done to make it work well for DF.

[lost echo]

is there a beta build of raidbots that we have to use to test ptr apl stuff? getting errors when i use my simc string in the advanced section

[thorny fog]

you have to use local or mimiron i think

[half karma]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot yep

[lost echo]

oh gotcha didn't know about mimiron ty

[finite sparrow]

note that outlaw is in the most complete state for ptr sims (see #1065730004920586350 pins), the other specs had an initial pass but are waiting on some things

[lost echo]

yup! figure it's a good time to start experimenting since there's so much left to discover

[regal agate]

the main focus for ptr simualtions is to fix problems in the apl

it is too early to have conclusive answers for gearing etc.

[lost echo]

of course!

[lost echo]

where does the value for cp_max_spend come from? can't find where it's set and i'm currently evis'ing on 2 cp lol

[regal agate]

cp_max_spend is just a way to include er

[lost echo]

oh i see it's the combo_points.deficit that's used for finishing logic

[strong gorge]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/Rogues has a lot of info about such

[noble pendant]

jesus thats old

F to the boy mystler

[lost echo]

lol yeah i saw anticipation charges and had me a think

[thorny fog]

mystler bae

[lost echo]

sry if i missed something obvious in the repo, but what's the difference between run_action_list and call_action_list?

[regal agate]

run does not return after

[lost echo]

oh so it doesn't restart the prio list then?

is that the idea?

[regal agate]

Run:

conditions
run
└─> we now execute this
conditions after are ignored

Call:

conditions
call
└─> We execute this
and continue here after

[finite sparrow]

call doesnt restart, it just keeps going

[lost echo]

got it, running a list will only ever cause one action from the list to get sent, but calling a list will send all the actions that return true, in the order of the list

[regal agate]

you see it in action in the sub apl:

[lost echo]

that wouldn't include assigning variables right? like in the case of the stealthed list, if line 119 doesnt run, that wouldn't mean it would run 120 and then end the list right

[regal agate]

it will work through the sub list after the jump

in both cases

so the diffrence is just if it returns back to the point of the initial jump after and continues

[lost echo]

oh oh oh oh

i think i understand

[regal agate]

another visual representation

basically if you are stealthed you go down to the stealthed sublist

and then sequential (one after the other) chech the items

[lost echo]

and since it's run, after that you go back to line 0

but if it was call, you'd go back to line 49

[regal agate]

stealthed is a run*

so if it ends with the last item in the stealthed list

and couldn't match it would end

(and begin at the top again next)

[lost echo]

maybe the lingo is getting mixed up, but when i referred to it as a run, i was meant that the stealthed list was being called using the "run_action_list" rather than "call_action_list"

[regal agate]

oh wait you are right

its run, i mixed it up (fixed)

[lost echo]

okay okay lol

[regal agate]

but yes, exactly this

[lost echo]

perfect

[lost echo]

how does using copy= to compare two apls work? Do you need to copy paste the entire apl after the copy= and then make the changes or is there a way to specify the lines you want to replace in particular?

[half karma]

basically it will copy everything above, you can then replace a "section" of apl if you will
for example this is the finisher section (list) for outlaw

# Use BtE to keep the crit buff up, but on cooldown if Improved or for Greenskins, and avoid overriding Greenskins
actions.finish=between_the_eyes,if=!talent.crackshot&(buff.between_the_eyes.remains<4|talent.greenskins_wickers&!buff.greenskins_wickers.up|!talent.greenskins_wickers&talent.improved_between_the_eyes|!talent.greenskins_wickers&set_bonus.tier30_4pc)
# Crackshot builds use BtE outside of Stealth if Vanish or Dance will not come off cooldown within the next cast
actions.finish+=/between_the_eyes,if=talent.crackshot&(cooldown.vanish.remains>45&cooldown.shadow_dance.remains>15)
actions.finish+=/slice_and_dice,if=buff.slice_and_dice.remains<fight_remains&refreshable
actions.finish+=/killing_spree
actions.finish+=/cold_blood
actions.finish+=/dispatch```
you know its a section because it start with a ``actions.finish=something`` instead of +=/

[regal agate]

You only need to copy the sublist

[lost echo]

oh sick

[vast harness]

Was curious to look at mimiron, what does this check do on quick sim? I thought everything mimiron was PTR / beta stuff?

[finite sparrow]

does nothing, a remnant of old raidbots UI stuff that was removed on the main site

[meager quest]

Someone has a list of all the crafted gear sims with different stats?
Would like to add some to my topgear so create the best combination

[regal agate]

its in the pins in this channel

[meager quest]

its "only" leather items right? :/

[half karma]

Well yes

[meager quest]

okey need plate aswell thats why i ask 😄

[thorny fog]

might have more luck in warr/dk/pala

[spiral light]

Ty! By the way the trimmed crafted gear version has ilevel=447 on every item, still S2 ilvls.

[thorny fog]

For more clarity when you see that it is the second paste

[proven sparrow]

#trinket1=augury_of_the_primal_flame,id=208614,ilevel=489
This trinket is also ilvl 495 496 and not 489 since its "very rare" from the last boss

[thorny fog]

i find funny that 1 boss drops 2 of the kinda op trinks

the signet and embersoul

[finite sparrow]

is it 495 or 496?

[proven sparrow]

Mb ye its 496

[thorny fog]

What stat is 32 36 40 49 Is it crit haste mastery vers?

[regal agate]

thanks, fixed

[regal agate]

32 36 = crit haste
40 49 = vers mastery```correct.

[regal agate]

Initial Season 3 gear strings for testing:
I put together an intial gear list for Season 3. It should be complete, but let me know if something is missing/wrong.
Best is to use Raidbots - Mimiron to have all items available.
(ADVISE: Use a trimmed version or the reduced crafted gear list as the full version will lead to a laggy website experience)

[lost echo]

does raidbots topgear talent builds have the ability to generate builds with a floater point in the midsection? im trying to but i cannot put points into the final third leaving one floating in the midsection for the bot to then place for me

[noble pendant]

no it does not

it's only able to generate from top down

[lost echo]

curses

[vast harness]

Am I misunderstanding something? Detailed report is 6 min, sim page says 5 min?

(This is mimiron)

[proven sparrow]

All sims have +-20% variance in duration by default

[vast harness]

Ah ok

[regal agate]

Initial Season 3 gear strings for testing:
I put together an intial gear list for Season 3. It should be complete, but let me know if something is missing/wrong.
Best is to use Raidbots - Mimiron to have all items available.
(ADVISE: Use a trimmed version or the reduced crafted gear list as the full version will lead to a laggy website experience)
update Changed item levels from 483 to 486 for crafted gear, updated primal flame to 496.

[noble pendant]

Unlikely

[regal agate]

general implementation questions are usually better to be asked in the simc discord.
https://discord.gg/tFR2uvK

[ruby agate]

Last tier we had a few bosses that were close(tm) for a bit so my rl had me eat the first boss melee to guarantee a ret aura proc on pull. (Since healer pumps on pull can oft prevent one in the bl window)

Pretty similar, imo - pretty rogue-specific behavior though.

[stray laurel]

so it will have one proc baseline in patchwerk fights good to know

[finite sparrow]

nah, the default will mostly likely be zero

[stray laurel]

ok but I think this is what he meant though

[proven sparrow]

No, he said the default is going to be no procs at all

And if you want it to proc you have to use the lines he linked in expert mode to enable it

[stray laurel]

ok thx

[half idol]

hey guys, how do i compare multiple talent strings in one ptr sim?

[noble pendant]

can just use top gear for that

[karmic pewter]

you can add a copy='name your setup'
talents=jhdasggfgdjfdk

at the bottom

[spiral light]

or you just use top gear for that

[regal agate]

Raidbots mimiron - Top gear <- follow the link

possibly need a custom apl, e.g. for subtlety you can take the one pinned in #1065728795455266888.

a gear list for s3 is pinned in this channel

[proven sparrow]

Fwiw ingame you cannot have the proc and the buff from the on-use at the same time anymore. Either the proc replaces your regular on-use or you cant use the trinket while the proc is active

[proven sparrow]

Its a recent change, you used to be avled to stack them

[thorny fog]

it is a hotfix thing that got through likely

will also make a fast video about it after i check if it also decays

[stray laurel]

i'm trying to get into understanding the apl and I wonder if you considered commenting more, like just to explain what a paragraph is meant to sim in the rotation?

[thorny fog]

i'm actually going to make videos this next weekend about simc and APL in general i kinda decided no one did tell me what format they prefer so i will just make one video for each part i consider important

It is easier to understand if you have done some logic in programming

maybe we should pin the simc wiki or make a diff thread for people that are interested in learning will ask around meanwhile this is kinda the most important one for APL https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/Action-List-Conditional-Expressions even i still check it quite usually

[stray laurel]

ok but there is a different reading into a paragraph knowing it is about optimizing Blades for example, and reading to try to understand which part of the rotation it is trying to sim/optimize.

very different things

[noble pendant]

the lists are named and go from top to bottom

actions.cds handle cooldowns

[thorny fog]

yes they are hierarchal and also tell the name of the expression

[stray laurel]

but i'm very curious to watch your video about it, even if it does not help me go the whole way through it at least might help bring more ppl into it

[prime narwhal]

took me like a few hours of just rapid firing questions to whispyr for me to be able to read/understand it

[thorny fog]

the hardest part is when you already have an idea and want to make it true sometimes(and also not mess up everything meanwhile)

but understanding it in itself is also quite a fun journey

had to edit because it happens a lot

[prime narwhal]

yeah the reading is the easiest part, making changes yourself requires you to play around with it quite a bit

[stray laurel]

actions.stealthed+=/gloomblade,if=buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3&buff.shadow_blades.up&!used_for_danse&talent.danse_macabre&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4

ok so this line from the apl is to use gloomblade during dance more that 3sec remaining, while in Blades, only once(?), with DM talented and under 4 targets?

[noble pendant]

correct

[stray laurel]

if=buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3
shouldn't this part have a higher number in order to have GB be used sooner into the dance?

[noble pendant]

what would that do

[prime narwhal]

its for more than one build the timing fits if you are playing non TFD builds so you have a gloomblade in between the first Eviscerate and the sectech cast

[noble pendant]

dance has 6 seconds left on it, 6>3, so it uses gloomblade

if you said if=buff.shadow_dance.remains>=5

dance still has 6 seconds left on it

and 6>5

so it still uses the gloomblade

[stray laurel]

well we are supposed to use it as 1st gcd and have the remaning gcds used with higher damage spelle as it's a bigger gain that way

[noble pendant]

yeah

it does that

moving the number up doesn't change the logic

it probably just messes up some edge cases

where the sim doesn't gloomblade on first gcd

[stray laurel]

why not sooner though?

[prime narwhal]

it makes it able to do both

[stray laurel]

hmm

[noble pendant]

Making conditions too rigid is a very quick way to cause the sim to simply fail when something out of the ordinary happens

[stray laurel]

but should it not try to reproduce this part of the rotation in a more strict way to be more optimal?

[stray laurel]

alright

like this way it can solve the rotation when it does not enter Dance in the best most optimal way?

and since this line happens before the SS ones it will be used prio as a builder?

[noble pendant]

Yeah I mean if you force it to a very very specific gcd

The moment you don’t get that

It’s doomed

[stray laurel]

no wait there is a shadowstrike line before it. hmm

how does the bot knows to use gb prio over ss in this case then?

[stray laurel]

and by that you mean the sim will still get through but with a much lower dps for example?

sorry i'm firing questions, that's the last for tonight I promise

[noble pendant]

Because the shadowstrike probably has a condition on it that blocks it, which causes it to check the next line and use the gb

I’m not intricately familiar with the sub APL but stuff like that is fairly common where you have line A require some conditions, like you need to have rupture up for example

And because you don’t have rupture up, the first 15 lines of the APL just get skipped

So you cast the rupture and then the previous lines kick in

[stray laurel]

interesting

[noble pendant]

Well the sim will complete but the dps probably craters. I had an issue like that earlier where I limited rupture casts but Deathmark requires rupture so it just never cast Deathmark and I lost like 65% of my dps cause no Deathmark means no kingsbane no kingsbane means no shiv, etc etc

And the entire APL crumbles

[stray laurel]

|variable.priority_rotation)
must be that part that skips the SS then. I'll just have to dig into the wiki tomorrow

[noble pendant]

That’s a user variable you can put in to sim priority dps in aoe

By default it’s false

[stray laurel]

ok

thought the complete line is not much long:
actions.stealthed=shadowstrike,if=(buff.stealth.up)&(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4|variable.priority_rotation)
so I have no clue how the bot know how to use gb over SS
but i'll ask someone who knows the Sub apl more

thanks for the infos!

[noble pendant]

That’s for stealth not dance

When you enter dance you have buff.stealth

So that line doesn’t trigger

[stray laurel]

well all the 3 shadowstrike lines have this

with += sometimes

[prime narwhal]

if im not mistaken the shadowstrike for dance is the on all the way at the bottom no?

[noble pendant]

+= just adds to the line

Like actions.stealthed+= means add the line to the stealthed list

[stray laurel]

yeah i'm at the bottom of the file and there are no other mentions of shadowstrike

[noble pendant]

Yeah that bottom one

With no conditions

That’s the one it uses in dance

[prime narwhal]

yeah the bottom one is the dance one

[stray laurel]

ok

[stray laurel]

ok, so can you explain to me how the bot knows to use gb before ss during dance for DM stacks?

[prime narwhal]

the gb line is above it

[stray laurel]

that was my initial guess but then I noticed the first shadowstrike line above all the others

[prime narwhal]

yeah but thats not triggered during dance

[stray laurel]

because of the buff.stealth.up ?

probably but since the line starts with actions.stealthed that's confusing a bit

[prime narwhal]

thats just group names

[stray laurel]

oh it's just a name with no meaning attached to it for the bot?

[prime narwhal]

you can think of them sort of like a catagory

is the best way to explain it in my head

[stray laurel]

if it is then that kind of the commenting I was hoping for when I started reading the apl

[prime narwhal]

what the bot does starts after =/ or +=/

[stray laurel]

yeah but I could swap stealthed in actions.stealthed by any word I like for example and it would still work basically the same right?

[tough hornet]

Yes

You call the group "stealthed" higher later on in the apl somewhere

The name is arbitrary it's just grouping stealth based conditions together

[stray laurel]

okok

great

enough progress for today thanks guys

!

[stray bolt]

Known issue: there will be still undesirable cast for rupture/garrote considering incoming dm/sd

[karmic pewter]

^these might be a bit better for #1065730164077645916

[stray bolt]

which language is this apl? does it support ternary operator?

[noble pendant]

the apl is it's own language and no it does nto

[thorny fog]

apl is just pseudo code that follows some basic logic

core is on c++

[vast harness]

What does effective_combo_points mean in APLs (as opposed to simply combo_points)?

[half karma]

its for animacharged cps

so if you are at 2 cp but on an animacharged cp, effective cp = 7

[vast harness]

Ah, so if you aren't running ER, then it just basically means CP

[half karma]

y

[vast harness]

thx

[tranquil tulip]

Is this where I can submit rotation changes for testing?

[prime narwhal]

#1065730164077645916

[tranquil tulip]

ty, i'll chuck what we talked about earlier in there.

[brave flint]

if u hate gear compare, add this to the bottom of your /simc in top gear for easy new tier comparison - change the ilvl as u want

Lucid Shadewalker's Deathmask

head=,id=207236,ilevel=483

Lucid Shadewalker's Clawgrips

hands=,id=207237,ilevel=483

Lucid Shadewalker's Chausses

legs=,id=207235,ilevel=483

Lucid Shadewalker's Cuirass

chest=,id=207239,ilevel=483

Lucid Shadewalker's Bladed Spaulders

shoulder=,id=207234,ilevel=483

couldn't find if something like this had been posted before^^

[thorny fog]

i have it on my sheet and fuu has it too on his txt

pinned

even if it only says crafted gear it has also the tier in the amirdrassil part

[regal agate]

The pinned gear lists include tier set.
They are split in 2 because of the extend of loot from content (with a reduced list for crafted pieces)
I need to re-post it maybe because there is a tank trinket that is also okay on rogue that i have on my local list but not the pinned one. I don't think anything else is missing, but if there is, just let me know.

[solid sparrow]

I'm not really sure where to post it where TCers from all 3 specs will see, but this neck https://www.wowhead.com/item=150426/blazefury-medallion drops from the world boss Kazzak in blasted lands during the wow anniversary event. This necks effect sims equal to a 486 Volcoross necklace for me as outlaw, and it is almost certainly undersimming. In my sims the effect is worth about 680 dps https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rSHxPbBzkjNAfhxYukbh31/simc, however in actual testing, the effect is doing nearly double the damage of sims. This item is likely nearly equal or better then a 489 Volc neck for outlaw and might even be strong for sub (less likely sin since its stats seem pretty bad for them)

I figured I'd just post this incase you guys want to check and see if its worth noting in the other sections that people gearing up can go farm this neck during the event for a fairly strong entry level neck that might even be competative with mythic necks in ST

[finite sparrow]

nice, can you log something while wearing the neck?

[solid sparrow]

right let me try to find my m+ log

[solid sparrow]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Vj2ZzrycGtxF1RPX#fight=3&phase=2&type=damage-done

[knotty oriole]

Ideally would want to test with a dagger OH to double check the scaling

[warm comet]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/yzAbmkDjrdhp6F4V#fight=1&type=damage-done&target=11&source=5
heres a dummy with dagger

[knotty oriole]

Is that with double dagger? Would you be able to do normal MH + dagger OH?

So the speeds are mismatched

[warm comet]

normal ilevel? thats outlaw so its axe mh, dagger oh

[knotty oriole]

ilevel shouldn't matter, just which weapons you have. I can't see since it doesn't show gear on dummy logs

[warm comet]

yeah this is axe/dagger

gear: https://raider.io/characters/us/khazgoroth/Araiakk

except with that neck

[knotty oriole]

Hmm that's very interesting, the damage is the same on both procs

[solid sparrow]

it must be averaging

[knotty oriole]

Could be the tooltip was not just a shortcut

[solid sparrow]

the speed

[knotty oriole]

Description : Adds ${$mws*$243991s1} Fire damage to your autoattacks.

The tooltip is encoded as MH weapon speed

Does the damage change if you swap in a slower weapon to your OH?

[solid sparrow]

mine was dual slow

[knotty oriole]

Yeah just need Ara to check really quick

If it's averaging vs. just using MH

[warm comet]

yeah i sent a few upgrades into the neck, but let me check both for a few minutes, ill post both logs

[knotty oriole]

Also very curious how this works with Feral, if it uses their base weapon speed or their feral attack speed

[knotty oriole]

If you can give a /simc output for your character that should also let me see if I can get everything matching up

[warm comet]

simc: https://pastebin.com/9DsJn5JA
slow/slow https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tRbz94WZXCnkcwPF#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=34
slow/fast https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tRbz94WZXCnkcwPF#fight=3&type=damage-done&source=34

[solid sparrow]

just testing on a dummy myself i can confirm the behavior that it appears to be snapshotting MH weapon damage scaling even if u have a dagger oh

so it just does more damage with a fast oh

[warm comet]

yeah the average is higher with the axe/dagger

sorry no, its higher with slow/slow

[knotty oriole]

Isn't it the same in both logs?

530 damage?

[warm comet]

ah the difference is crit

[knotty oriole]

Yeah must just use MH. Gotta love old items.

[solid sparrow]

the difference is you didnt have SnD in ur second test

xd

[warm comet]

ok let me redo it

[solid sparrow]

and it scales substantially with SnD

[warm comet]

yeah

one sec

[knotty oriole]

All I really needed to know here was if the damage itself changed

From each hit

[solid sparrow]

yea we can stop spamming this chat lets move to #outlaw

[vast harness]

Where did this end up? I think this is still relevant research for all specs.

[finite sparrow]

I don't think it went anywhere, but the neck is fixed in SimC now, it looks quite good for Outlaw at least, not tried the other specs

[vast harness]

I mean it's a low difficulty daily farm so i'm going to do it just in case, will try testing in sims for sin

[finite sparrow]

neck=,id=150426,ilevel=463,gem_id=192932/192932/192932,bonus_id=8782

[warm garnet]

@regal agate are you able to check on this for sub rogue?

[tough hornet]

Will probably farm this in case I ever play outlaw

Its bis innit

[regal agate]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ePssTCtSUX4L4vcZghgBmD

[vast harness]

Oh I didn't see, whispyr put a pin in sin channel about it

[regal agate]

its oay on sub, not bis

[rustic sphinx]

PVP mainstat proc and mainstat on use trinkets now scale to 483 ilvl and could be near bis for ppl who can get them

mentioned in sub chat but might apply to assa/outlaw also

[tough hornet]

1 min trink is historically good for sin

[tribal gate]

alacrity is over a 470 sandglass so not a great comparison

the on use not very compelling for sin

that's compared to a 483 branch

[half karma]

thats a big number

does it even work in sims

[tribal gate]

idk why they wouldn't but i have no idea

[half karma]

its a 1 min trinket right

the apl is only using it on 2 min rn

[tribal gate]

oh lol

it do be a 1m

which would be good with kb

[half karma]

if you wanted to know it still sucks

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wTZ9tZqrmHFXQXDmrAZng9

[tribal gate]

that's surprisingly poo

but good to know

[vast harness]

oh wow that's a super suck

[solid sparrow]

I believe pvp trinkets r generally underbudgeted to keep them out of pve and because the pvp set bonus effect is a huge budget increase

[rustic sphinx]

just thinking back to SL where it was bis for mages etc etc when it had equal ilvl to pve trinkets

its possible they have put it on a lower budget though

[novel swallow]

greetings, anyone have their sim use garrote twice in a row in single target ?https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c9KR46SxvTE1yhGHNSaibx/simc

[raw knoll]

#assassination

[tame veldt]

I’d argue this is a raidbots api question though. Sim rotation doesn’t double garrote in single target

[raw knoll]

you got 2 imp garrotes off for a total of 6cp exactly. looks fine. discussion in spec channel be the appropriate place. reminder it’s 1 iteration.

[void kelp]

is there a way to see the stats results from "Top Gear" sims?

[vast harness]

What do you mean the stats results?

On the right side of all result rows of Top Gear, there is a menu button ( … ) which you can click to run that specific row in all the different modes of raidbots. You can use that to run a quick sim to get the full html report.

[void kelp]

Exactly that, thanks

[maiden cargo]

That's definitely a sim question - because it's just not something you'd do.

[strong gorge]

Seems neutral/worse to not fill with garrote there

[regal agate]

Consumables comparison
Allows you to compare runes/food/flasks/etc.
just paste the file below your /simc in Advanced Sim-

[midnight moat]

Is spiked Counterweight simming inccorectly?

Cause my sim says a 489 counterweight is worse than a 483 counter weight

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cN6qNQTNEGrZ4UoUQgGqDP

heres a link to the log

its also sayying the counterweight is a dps decrease over 263 trinkets

[spiral light]

Click the ball next to the number

It's so shit in comparison, so it uses much less iterations for the sim

Just not worth properly simming and spending time/resources/iterations to sim the accurate difference

[midnight moat]

Still seems weird that 489 is worse than 483 tho no?

And the difference is 1.3k dps which isnt negligable

But atleast the take aeay is that its bad?

[vast harness]

(I'm sure there's a way to force it and smarter people than me know how) but you can force it by only simming the counterweight options, then see if the 489 and 483 compare as you would expect

[noble pendant]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9jwQq3p19hZ2T7iyhWNCZt

the dot here is a bit misleading cause it overrides to iterations instead of target error

so raidbots gets unhappy

but it's basically just a top gear with full accuracy

bit hard to read

[spiral light]

So bad that it's not worth the simming effort

[noble pendant]

but you can get the combos here

combo 6 here is the worst, and that's the 483

14 is the 489

and it's 0.3% better

which just on a logic check sounds pretty good to me

6 ilvl on a trinket, 0.3%

kinda makin sense

[spiral light]

Yep agreed

[midnight moat]

Aah okay I just thought something was bugged. I took the Hc Bandolier anyway.

[regal agate]

Season 3 gear strings for Top Gear:
Should be complete, but let me know if something is missing/wrong.
Best is to use Raidbots - Mimiron to have all items available.
(ADVISE: Use a trimmed version or the reduced crafted gear list as the full version will lead to a laggy website experience)
update Added a missing BoE item.

[maiden cargo]

Anyone available to help me rq ...
I want to add the following line to the APL for the verdant gladiator's badge

# Verdant Gladiator's Badge of Ferocity (470)```

Would I just write like verdant_gladiators_badge -- and then how do I actually get it INTO my sim?

Basically, I want to use that trinket WITH KB - and not with DM

[regal agate]

you would need to add it to a diffrent list