tc-subtlety | Ravenholdt | Page 5

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:06 PM

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well give me a sec, ill need to look at the sequence

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:06 PM

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or whatever it'll be

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that above is incorrect

turbid pulsar May 23, 2023, 4:07 PM

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thats what i do

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press is with my last finisher

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it*

past fable May 23, 2023, 4:08 PM

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Ye so give that a try first i guess fuu, because then we will end up with fewer "bad" globals inbetween the dances that we have to "waste" to get the cold bloods to line up

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Again im not 100% sure this is the absolute best way of playing it, but it feels so smooth and clean with the timings that i would guess its the intended way for it to play out

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:09 PM

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yea that is what i do too

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using symbols on second tolast evis then the backstab gets rotten

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in the case of the swift death one it gets PV+rotten+lingering

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it also comes off cd just in time if you use SoD at 15 prepull

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:13 PM

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If you want to try hacking in something to test concepts if f.ex opener is messing things, you can use like ,if=time>=15 etc, will resolve to false until 15 sec has passed

near hazel May 23, 2023, 4:13 PM

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is it bad to use sepsis at full cp before flag?

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:14 PM

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its fine

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:14 PM

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mystic sequoia If you want to try hacking in something to test concepts if f.ex opener is messi...

thats not a bad idea

near hazel May 23, 2023, 4:15 PM

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and if at 4cp, do we go immediately into dance and waste rotten cp or gloom then dance + Secret tech?

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:16 PM

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Can also do things like.. line_cd I think. Put it before ,if
f.ex
actions+=/symbols_of_death,line_cd=20,if=X<Y
Will make that exact line only able to trigger max once per 20 sec

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:16 PM

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rotational questions are more a fit for #subtlety, the tc channels are focused on improving the simulation or finding out diffrences

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what exactly does line_cd do

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and does it apply to pre pull actions too?

near hazel May 23, 2023, 4:17 PM

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omg im sorry, i thought i was in #subtlety 😅

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:18 PM

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It does kinda what it says.
If the line gets triggered. Then 20 seconds must pass before it can be triggered again

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Like if you have
actions+=/Shuriken_storm,line_cd=10
actions+=/Gloomblade
It will cast shuriken storm each 10 seconds and then gloomblade all other gcds

Had you had like
actions+=/shadow_blades,line_cd=10
Then it'll be cast when ready, since SB cd is longer than 10 sec

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No idea.. prepull stuff is insanely bothersome

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:21 PM

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thats nice

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because this means i can set the symbols cooldown to 0

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but that would fuck with symbols pre pull i guess

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because inherently the symbols uptime would be too high if you start with it up

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:23 PM

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uhm, no it's just another line in the apl. Doesn't override any spelldata. Just basically after the line gets run, it will resolve to false (be skipped) until the apl line cd is over

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:23 PM

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and change how you use symbols unless you hard code the first use

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:23 PM

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Or maybe I misunderstood
"fuu: because this means i can set the symbols cooldown to 0"

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:23 PM

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^

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the combination

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basically setting the "cooldown" only via apl rather than having a actual cooldown

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:24 PM

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ah and overriding the cd in spelldata.
Though that wouldn't work well with shadowdust

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:24 PM

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but seems like the innitial problem with this is

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i feel like it could end up causing some apl conditions too

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i asked today about the pre combat things

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:25 PM

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Sadly most precombat stuff requires code edits

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:25 PM

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you possibly did read it

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yes, i mean it would be one option for me to start exploring the codebase

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:25 PM

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No probably missed it, much meetings today

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I think druids, evokers and DK's have a lot of prepull stuff

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if one wants inspiration

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:27 PM

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this is a good idea too

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:27 PM

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mystic sequoia I think druids, evokers and DK's have a lot of prepull stuff

they do, but precombat_time also did not work

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:27 PM

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yeah, that's a good call. Can remember use that

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https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/a0230c73a043db759e900929f1ec84220efb760e#diff-978bb2ef0d0227df8fbc2d994d7881449ef6eca40a2cbb545a42213b3c356746R2256

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woops, scroll up I guess

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Is a recent commit for enabling evoker prepull stuff

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:29 PM

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was what jeremy posted

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it seems like there would be some code to add for correct buff parsing

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:31 PM

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But I think a good hack could be as gastank suggested

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:31 PM

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yea you can slam the rotten for first strike there

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:31 PM

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yes, thats what i think too

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:31 PM

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setting the duration of rotten to 10 and the cd of SoD to 5, or whatever works

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:31 PM

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you would use rotten around sec 6 or after dance with swift

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:31 PM

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can keep symbols off cd and set rotten duration to 10

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:32 PM

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and with subter and long dance after consuming pre med on the evis

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:32 PM

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why would you delay symbols?

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but lets test buff.x.remains

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to get rotten up

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:34 PM

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you dont delay symbols just if you use it 15 secs prepull it comes up like that

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i guess swift death can do 10 instead of 15

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although you do delay symbols a bit after the vanish

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because dance comes after

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:37 PM

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monkahmm think it needs another trigger

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:37 PM

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dead

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:37 PM

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oh its

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nvm, i think i am stupid

lilac crescent May 23, 2023, 4:39 PM

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is it buff.the_rotten_buff.remains

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:40 PM

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oh is there a spelling issue too?

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:40 PM

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oh really?

lilac crescent May 23, 2023, 4:40 PM

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if it works the same as flag

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which is buff.flagellation_buff.remains

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:40 PM

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logs

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oh no

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thats fine

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i think

lilac crescent May 23, 2023, 4:41 PM

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where simc command db

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mad

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:41 PM

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yea need !help

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:42 PM

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lilac crescent where simc command db

the wiki

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:42 PM

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need copilot support

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apl wiki misses a lot of things

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:42 PM

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tbh would not be super hard to do a fork with copilot and see how it works

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:42 PM

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Yes, wiki lacks a lot of things :p

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:42 PM

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might do like a QAS mode

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where you could try things

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:43 PM

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i did ask koji about some outlaw specific stuff a bit ago

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:43 PM

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the vanish things on outlaw scare me

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:43 PM

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tho i don't think he answered me back then, might be forgotten by now

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:43 PM

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same as exsang in assa

lilac crescent May 23, 2023, 4:43 PM

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mystic sequoia the wiki

ya i discussed with fuu the other day about how their should be a db that has a list of abilities and talents and the commands associated with them

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:44 PM

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override.precombat_state=buff.the_rotten.remains=10

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seems to work

lilac crescent May 23, 2023, 4:44 PM

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Flagellation

buff.flagellation_buff.remains
buff.flagellation_buff.perists
etc

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:44 PM

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its flagellation_persist and flagellation

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:45 PM

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would anyone be interested in making a db

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:45 PM

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flagellation and flagellation_buffs is the same iirc

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:45 PM

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it would not take that long

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:45 PM

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lilac crescent ya i discussed with fuu the other day about how their should be a db that has a ...

Well those are in spelldata

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:45 PM

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or take over the wiki kinda

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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i think it would be better to just ask

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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if you dl the simc client you can query them as well

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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for permissions on the wiki

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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ah true

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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and add things there

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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yea might as well contact the wiki

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and yea havent touched local simc in a while

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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the simc client does add some support when you want to loog up stuff

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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since i tried to make mfd work

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 4:46 PM

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look

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 4:47 PM

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(it did not work)

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same as ER

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but at least dust did

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 4:48 PM

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for the flagallation buffs

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it is also easy to find reading the sample sequence

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as it shows what buffs are up

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but it is friction and complicated

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hmm, seems like pre combat symbols and symbols on pull is the same output

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dracthyr_kek

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the rotten on the initial strike is not worth much

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setting cooldown to 5 secs makes the outcome worse

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so interesstingly enough the 3/4 small improvements we have don't need special simc changes to work

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:21 PM

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Symbols on pull also gives pe to bacon

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:21 PM

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you dont want to bacon on pull with swift death

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you dont get to use strike before premed goes down

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:22 PM

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Wym you’d symbols strike bacon

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:22 PM

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when would you want to beacon with it?

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i can try adding a delay

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:22 PM

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Oh before snd runs out is what you’re saying

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Wouldn’t you get the sepsis strike before going into dance

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Does sepsis strike extend snd?

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 5:27 PM

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Shouldn't, since you don't enter stealth, so you gain no premed

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:28 PM

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!bugs

gilded crestBOT May 23, 2023, 5:28 PM

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Rogue Bug tracker: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/labels/Rogue

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:28 PM

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https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1105

GitHub

Sepsis Stealth buffs works inconsistently. · Issue #1105 · SimCMinM...

Game Version: ptr 10.1.0.49318 Description: The Sepsis buffs act as Stealth and trigger Stealth benefits like the Shadowstrike teleportation but does not proc Premeditation. It is unclear if this b...

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its in the issues

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it is not applying premed

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 5:28 PM

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Sepsis simply makes you stealthed. So you get no "when you enter" stealth effects and no "when you leave stealth" effects

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:29 PM

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it is a bit weird ngl

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 5:29 PM

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I kind of see it as three different separate things

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:29 PM

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df seems to change things away from intuition to "need to know"

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:29 PM

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yea realz did say we dont get premed because we dont "gain" stealth

mystic sequoia May 23, 2023, 5:29 PM

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A trigger on enter, a trigger on exit and just being stealthed with the state

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:30 PM

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ofc rosvall

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it seems logical from a programming point of view

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but this does not mean it is intuitive

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:33 PM

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yea because there is lots of paste in the middle

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i think they also gave up with NS

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and just put the old one back in without the ambush modifiers

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:35 PM

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Can just sack the first sepsis strike if it makes problems for snd uptime

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Since beaconing in between dances wouldn’t really work due to flag

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:36 PM

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swift death deniers unite

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we love subter and tfd

past fable May 23, 2023, 5:45 PM

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rugged solar the rotten on the initial strike is not worth much

This is true but were also wasting the cp from sepsis with it since it goes strike > sepsis > flag, might be better to strike > flag > rupture > sepsis to make sure you always get 7cp for the first sectech and to not waste the sepsis cp

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Whereas if we dont prepull rotten we get 5-6 cp from the first strike and the sepsis cp is useful

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But idk

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:47 PM

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the problem is you kinda make flag worse by delaying sepsis

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so don't think that this works positively

past fable May 23, 2023, 5:47 PM

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Ye probably

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:47 PM

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join the subterfuge cult

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you strike snd

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then strike sepsis flag

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:48 PM

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dracthyr_no dracthyr_no2

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:48 PM

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can even bacon after second strike

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instead of inting

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:48 PM

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so delay till strike?

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lets see

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https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6w6VFKryXYe7EynpdbVqfC

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monkahmm thats a gain

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past fable May 23, 2023, 5:53 PM

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What about even later with the second sepsis strike

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:54 PM

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moment

past fable May 23, 2023, 5:54 PM

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Ah but that probably doesnt matter as you already have symbols from prepulling with symbols

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:54 PM

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i think pre pull symbols is using it 15 secs early tho

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so you would not have SoD?

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or is it using it on 1

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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Does the sim properly channel the duration of beacon

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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it is a cast

past fable May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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Its using it on 0 yes, fuu was working on how to get it to not do that but couldnt find a way

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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In the timeline

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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yea it is quite hard to do it i remember there was a font kinda override

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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Yea because In the sim you’re getting premed off before snd runs out

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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but is it lost to the nether?

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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How long is beacon cast 2 full seconds?

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:55 PM

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2.5

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so 1.5 outside gcd

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but as it ends you can use an ability

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so in reality you lose only 1 gcd or so

past fable May 23, 2023, 5:56 PM

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The cast is hasted though isnt it

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:56 PM

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the sim does not have pre pull symbols i think

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:56 PM

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dont remember

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yea the pre pull krangle is kind of out of bounds rn

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we do know it works

past fable May 23, 2023, 5:56 PM

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Or well, it is hasted in simc so i assume thats how it works ingame too, but i dont have it to test

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:56 PM

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https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jFBiHsLnNVmd98M9pvVqY9

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nope

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pDsgL6xZuoVeeZgCpjLvwo

Raidbots

Advanced Sim - New - 143,218 DPS - Raidbots

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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too late

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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unraleted

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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ehehe before the big fall

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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but not allowing for any ss out of dance

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seemes to be a gain

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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scenic schooner unraleted

what is this about?

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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3 min

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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so no vanish ss and no sepsi ss

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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ohh

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ye i think

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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oh ye sry was tensting something on 3min and forgot to change

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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ignoring sepsis proc might be good

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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with lingering i can see that

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:57 PM

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also vanish

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:58 PM

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without i still dig the 2 strikes from vanish

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:58 PM

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it vanishes gloom or vanishes evis now

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:58 PM

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that is very cooked tho

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:58 PM

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https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dmFyRoZYi9YkfxNnSNuxAM

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:58 PM

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since we moved vanish to outside of dance

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:58 PM

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Yea you literally can get strike off with ~2 seconds left of snd then hacha you’re not dropping premed

past fable May 23, 2023, 5:59 PM

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Did you check vanish strike and sepsis strike individually, feels like the vanish strikes with premed should atleast be decent

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But ye sepsis ones i can 100% see

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:59 PM

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^ on 5 minutes

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 5:59 PM

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was also testing the old idea push had again, to get 2x CB sec tech inside a flag window but couldnt make it to be a gain

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 5:59 PM

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i think it would be only sepsis stealth

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 5:59 PM

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yea it is difficult to make it do that kind of dance

past fable May 23, 2023, 5:59 PM

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scenic schooner was also testing the old idea push had again, to get 2x CB sec tech inside a fla...

Did you get it to do the double CB flag windows properly?

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 5:59 PM

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As long as you clip the beacon cast so it’s 1.5 seconds you don’t run out of snd

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:00 PM

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possible yea

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:00 PM

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And you can still use sepsis strike

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:00 PM

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as said before i kinda hate the swift death one so i only did some tests and my premed was broken anyway so i asked stealthi to do it

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but on the tries i did i missed out

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just pressed it too late i guess

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:00 PM

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Yea probably harder for people with ping to do as well

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:01 PM

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you could always macro it but idk

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:01 PM

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@scenic schooner did you check it with dm too

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:01 PM

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past fable Did you check vanish strike and sepsis strike individually, feels like the vanis...

vanish didnt seem to change much

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:01 PM

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i feel like it might be

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:01 PM

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rugged solar <@176352306638356480> did you check it with dm too

no only checked rotten one

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:01 PM

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actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,if=stealthed.sepsis&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4&talent.danse_macabre

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^ as the new condition

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:02 PM

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rugged solar `actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,if=stealthed.sepsis&spell_targets.shuriken_sto...

sry im beeing horrible with the integrations LOL

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:03 PM

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This is also why I was mentioning moving vanish strike to the end of the first dance so you can make use of lingering between the flag window double dances since right now it wastes about ~15 lingering stacks when it could have a gloom with rotten and pv and lingering

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:03 PM

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commenting lines and changing specific stuff without thinking of other builds

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:03 PM

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scenic schooner sry im beeing horrible with the integrations LOL

huh, no you are great

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lets test it with DM and find out if my thesis is good

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or not

past fable May 23, 2023, 6:04 PM

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scenic schooner vanish didnt seem to change much

Ah ye so its effectively just the sepsis strikes that arent great. But if we never wanna shadowstrike outside of dance, do we even want to shadowstrike inside dance? monkahmm

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:04 PM

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oh wait

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:04 PM

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actions.stealthed=shadowstrike,if=(buff.stealth.up|buff.vanish.up&talent.danse_macabre)&(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4|variable.priority_rotation)
should change it here too

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:04 PM

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can you actually get those talents easy

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:05 PM

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past fable Ah ye so its effectively just the sepsis strikes that arent great. But if we nev...

nono the one +vanish

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:05 PM

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you can't

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nvm

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:05 PM

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is where vanish strikes are enable

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:05 PM

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if you sepsis, you won't use rotten

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but you can drop rotten

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lets see, moment

past fable May 23, 2023, 6:05 PM

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scenic schooner is where vanish strikes are enable

Oh, so its just the vanish strikes and the rotten ones are actually good then?

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I just read it the opposite way the first time

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:06 PM

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hmm

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:06 PM

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past fable Oh, so its just the vanish strikes and the rotten ones are actually good then?

best one was where i allowed non of em

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so no vanish strikes and no sepsis strikes

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:07 PM

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let me quick check something

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:08 PM

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changed
actions.stealthed=shadowstrike,if=(buff.stealth.up|buff.vanish.up)&(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4|variable.priority_rotation)
to actions.stealthed=shadowstrike,if=(buff.stealth.up)&(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4|variable.priority_rotation)

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:08 PM

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Lingering is good Cheesin

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:08 PM

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i dont play lingering and live a better life

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:08 PM

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and commented the sepsis shadowstrike line

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:08 PM

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of shadowstrikes and PV

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PV does not decay

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unlike lingering

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can even use both sepsis strikes with no remorse

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rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:09 PM

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okay, that wasn't gret

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XD

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:09 PM

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ayaya

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:10 PM

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scenic schooner changed `actions.stealthed=shadowstrike,if=(buff.stealth.up|buff.vanish.up)&(spe...

was that a win too?

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oh okay, i see

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it seems in general, the sepsis line can be removed tho

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:13 PM

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Here’s what I’m talking about if you vanished before the last dance strike at the top instead of outside of dance you’d get a pv lingering rotten gloom into your 2nd dance instead of wasting lingering which would also go along with the no strikes outside of dance

past fable May 23, 2023, 6:14 PM

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If were not using the sepsis strikes, is it even worth to spec it compared to a second point of lingering? The sims chuffa linked has sepsis and lingering be worth roughly the same amount of overall dps

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:17 PM

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hmm

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:18 PM

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Oh whats that?

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Dm?

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:18 PM

#

comparing the test apl with the changes

#

neither of the changes has conditions to limit it to rotten

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but it seems like

#

limiting it to (stealth) is fine

#

so we can in general simplify the apl it seems

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:20 PM

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Oh btw fuu i have a queston about the apl? I just cant understand bot shadowdance lines in the apl

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:20 PM

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sure, just ask

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:21 PM

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Every time i want to try and change shadowdance use i just end up commenting those 2 and crating a new one

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:21 PM

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past fable If were not using the sepsis strikes, is it even worth to spec it compared to a ...

no way sepsis is like dot 2.5 hit 1.x + blades no shot lingering does more

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:21 PM

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rugged solar sure, just ask

I just dont get the at all

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:21 PM

#

oh

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the lines are fairly lets say rich

#

they pack a lot of conditions

past fable May 23, 2023, 6:21 PM

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ivory kestrel no way sepsis is like dot 2.5 hit 1.x + blades no shot lingering does more

True i forgot about the extra sblades damage

remote sparrow May 23, 2023, 6:21 PM

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past fable If were not using the sepsis strikes, is it even worth to spec it compared to a ...

sepsis damage alone seems to be higher than a second lingering point. on a 6 min fight lingering does about 1.1 mil. sepsis does about 900k + 450k from blades.

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:22 PM

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but lets unpack it

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:22 PM

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i mean i even replaced lingering to 1 poin in improv dance and saw a win in practice with subter

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to get an extra empoered evis and less detraction from the extra strikes

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and PV does not decay

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:22 PM

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Yea but subter cucks lingering

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Horrible combo

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:22 PM

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getting 5-4 PV is better than 1 or 2 then a decaying noodle

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yea that is why it gets more value

remote sparrow May 23, 2023, 6:22 PM

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btw what have you guys so far gotten with sepsis strikes? I kinda missed the previous discussion. are we ignoring the sepsis strikes and dont try to get two cold bloods inside each flag + vanish window?

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:23 PM

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from taking it off talenting something else

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and using PV better

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:23 PM

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actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&fight_remains<cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains|variable.cb&!talent.shadow_dance&dot.rupture.ticking&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4&variable.rotten_threshold
Is the fallback apl line.
It basically has
variable.shd_combo_points&fight_remains<cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains
basically just makes it use at the end of a fight.
!talent.shadow_dance&dot.rupture.ticking&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4&variable.rotten
basically on cooldown if rupture is up and you have less than 4 targets

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:25 PM

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Wouldnt that last part just always send on cd no matter what?

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As long as u have rup up and rotten variable is true

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:26 PM

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yes

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:26 PM

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Like that last part of the line would render the other shadowdance line useless

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:26 PM

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rotten variable is just checking if the buff is up more or less

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:31 PM

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If we’re not striking outside of dance I don’t see why we don’t move the vanish strike into dance like with macabre that way we still gain premed instead of just ns on a gloom / evis no?

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:32 PM

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that could be a win thx to cuck lingering

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:33 PM

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agile nymph If we’re not striking outside of dance I don’t see why we don’t move the vanish ...

This will fuck up SOD cdr

#

Since u mostly sod after dance now

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:33 PM

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sry, did get distracted from #subtlety, anything in the line that you want to go over more?

past fable May 23, 2023, 6:33 PM

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vanish for nightstalker on a rotten gloomblade with full lingering stacks kekman

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:34 PM

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vanish for rupture with finality

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:34 PM

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past fable vanish for nightstalker on a rotten gloomblade with full lingering stacks <:kekm...

I actually thought of this but had to do some other shit

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:34 PM

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monkahmm

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:34 PM

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Gonna try to look at it when im back at pc

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:34 PM

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okay, let us go there

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:34 PM

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Doesn’t ns snapshot rupture

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:34 PM

#

it does

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:35 PM

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Might honestly be a gain there

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:35 PM

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Yes

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:35 PM

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If we’re only using vanish for cdr and ns

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God this is just getting degenerate OMEGAKEKW

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:35 PM

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Dust makes things fucking complicated lol

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:36 PM

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Yea it’s real annoying

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:36 PM

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Now wait till ER becomes a gain

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And we have the full clusterfuck

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:36 PM

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but lets quickly go over the dance monster apl line with chuffa

remote sparrow May 23, 2023, 6:36 PM

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you cant vanish as last gcd thuogh, you need vanish to also reset symbols cd

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:36 PM

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Drop all your crit because rotten then check er over seal fate kekdog

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:36 PM

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chuffa, if anything i say needs further expleneation please just ask at any point

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:36 PM

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rugged solar but lets quickly go over the dance monster apl line with chuffa

Yes pls

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:36 PM

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there are no bad questions (there are, but you won't ask them)

agile nymph May 23, 2023, 6:37 PM

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remote sparrow you cant vanish as last gcd thuogh, you need vanish to also reset symbols cd

Makes sense I can’t test the build rn cuz no internet so having to map shit out in my head

#

Could prob also test the vanish line with a condition like always with rupture or only finality rupture and gb otherwise since we’ll have lingering pv gloom guaranteed with vanish timings

remote sparrow May 23, 2023, 6:40 PM

#

also, just from hitting dummies, using symbols builder + evis as 5th and 6th gcd of dance usually results in more overall dps for me VS using symbols outside of dance for the cdr and lingering hits and w/e

#

like if you use symbols inside dance after your 3rd dance gcd, syncs symbols and dance nicely when talented in swift

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:43 PM

#

okay lets go over this, it is actually 3 lines, the first one:
(variable.shd_combo_points&(!talent.shadow_dance&buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=(2.2-talent.flagellation.enabled)|variable.shd_threshold)
The first part looks complicated but it basically just lines up shadow dance to symbols or uses shadow dance if you are about to cap on charges.
shd_combo_points is defined earlier and will mostly depend on the amount of targets, but this is basically what defined the cp amount we start to dance
buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=(2.2-talent.flagellation.enabled) does align dance with symbols, flagallation just allows dance use for slightly longer, what leads to a more aggressive use (can use dance with 1.2 sec or higher reminding of symbols).
|variable.shd_threshold is again a variable defined earlier, but is mostly relevant for 2 dance builds.
It triggers if you are close to capping on shadow dance charges.

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the second one:
talent.shadow_dance&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<=9&(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=3|talent.danse_macabre)this line is mostly relevant for double dance, it basicaly uses dance only if secret techniques is up soon or up.

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:46 PM

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rugged solar ```actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&fight_remains...

But wouldnt the last part of this line just make the othe line useless?

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:46 PM

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scenic schooner Now wait till ER becomes a gain

i tried to make er and MFD work separately and together for a bit

#

it was disastrous

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:46 PM

#

Since it will send dance anyway if rotten cond is true and rup is ticking

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 6:46 PM

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like 3k+ ouchies

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:48 PM

#

okay i lied there are more than 3 parts.
But lets go over it.
buff.flagellation.up|buff.flagellation_persist.remains>=6
Basically uses dance when flagallation is building stacks or if the pesistent part of flag has at least 6 seconds remaining.
The "remaining" is there to not use dance when the persistent buff is about to run out

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:48 PM

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scenic schooner But wouldnt the last part of this line just make the othe line useless?

the rotten variable?

#

oh i think i know what you mean

#

yes

#

basically from a meta perspective

#

most of the trigger conditions are focused on double dance

#

single dance builds will usually fall down to the "on cd" line

#

but also it depends ont eh target count

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:49 PM

#

Nice that clears up things a lot

#

Ty fuu

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:50 PM

#

spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>10

#

the last part of the condition is for higher target counts ^^

#

basically just symbols sync

#

rotten condition at the end is the same as with the other line, just making sure dance is delayed if rotten is up

#

it is one of the complex parts of the apl

#

and i spend quite some time already simplifiying it ^^

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 6:52 PM

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Yea i had issues trying to twak damce usage whenever i tried

#

And just ended up commenting bot lines and dping a specific one for the thing i was working on

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 6:52 PM

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it migth be more readable to seperate things more

#

but that would also have higher redundancy

#

but also if something feels wrong about it

#

just ask, can also always delete the part

#

and see if the sim changes

#

you can delete qutie a bit probably if you stay with a single target sim because a lot of the conditions are more specific for double dance, flag or multi target

#

it is also always possible that one of the (parts of the) lines does not hold up anymore due to gear or balance changes

#

i did add a variable for cb in the one you copied

#

so if you look at this its just comparing remaining cooldowns to avoid triggering

#

(ironically could probably just add it to the rotten condition)

#

(but i would need to rename it probably because the name becomes missleading)

#

if you need anything else, just lmk, can also dm me at any time. I will come back to you usually when i have time (and if i don't just shoot me a dm, i probably had to do some work or other stuff and got distracted and forgot, but that shouldn't happen much)

#

back to vanish shananigans

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 7:00 PM

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Thx a lot fuu

#

Ill also keep testing some stuff once im back at the pc

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 7:09 PM

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sure, if you want me to test something for you instead also no problem

scenic schooner May 23, 2023, 7:13 PM

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I wanted to test vanish into rup

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I thought maybe that NS rup can almost make it till the next vanish

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With all the extend we get fron tierset

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 7:46 PM

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my assumption is that you can just vanish-rupture for finality

#

but not sure how much this fucks up timing

royal pawn May 23, 2023, 9:08 PM

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You're a champion thank you

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:11 PM

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okay, that did not work well

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not sure if it triggers, i think it does not

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no it does not XD

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(because it does not use finality)

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seems to be not worth it tho

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:14 PM

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whats "no ss out of dance

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for sepsis?

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:15 PM

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its the above profile

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i just used a cursed build to get finality

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to check if vanish-ruptute is worth it

#

but i should probably try it with the standard build too

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https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hURyaGVUuNAMXAA5FpYkXk

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seems to be not worth it for a more standard build too

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:20 PM

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that looks like a really low

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standard build sim

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:21 PM

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it is with finality

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and not inev

#

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:21 PM

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cursed

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also i played rotten on magdog

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:22 PM

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but there might be some other options to look at vanish use

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:22 PM

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and its not very fun

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:22 PM

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rotten seems to be only rly fun on very st heavy fights with low downtime

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:22 PM

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get mechanic on your first dance in a 2x dance flag sequence and you do zpds

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:22 PM

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is my impression, without testing it

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:22 PM

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i mean magdog is a low downtime boss

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but it requires so little

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for it to get fucked

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:23 PM

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fair

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ill test more tomorrow

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:23 PM

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even a parry

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on a rotten gloomblade

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and you want to jump off the platform

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:23 PM

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i would suggest to realz to add a talent that makes aas not miss

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or attacks in general

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:23 PM

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kekl

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broken

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maybe find weakness should remove misses

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:24 PM

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wouldn't even be that broken

valid robin May 23, 2023, 9:24 PM

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instead of lowering armor

rugged solar May 23, 2023, 9:24 PM

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agree

turbid pulsar May 23, 2023, 9:25 PM

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yeh would not recommend anybody play this build for progress

ivory kestrel May 23, 2023, 9:44 PM

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i did but my progress is laughable vs yours

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but did better than normal build sometimes i had to be creative with vanish usage

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if i got shit ahaha

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it really can be tragic like you said maybe if we could pre cloak more things

royal pawn May 24, 2023, 10:05 AM

#

valid robin also i played rotten on magdog

Not touching that build with a fucking pole, we got a 2% wipe on our 5th pull after unexpectedly killing Zskarn. Certain it flops tonight without much thought

remote sparrow May 24, 2023, 4:11 PM

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small optimization, but if we are doing sectech as first gcd of dance, wouldnt it make more sense to send ST outside of dance? So that the first hit is outside but the 2nd hit which comes 1.3 seconds later will come after dance, that way our rotation would be -> sectech , dance, gb, evis, strike, evis, strike, evis (we get 3 evis + sectech second hits in dance) VS previously : dance sectech, gb , evis, strike, evis, strike

#

i guess this is for rotten.

rugged solar May 24, 2023, 4:16 PM

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you mean off gcd use of dance

#

so secret-dance

remote sparrow May 24, 2023, 4:17 PM

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no no, so you sectech, then you dance gb on the next gcd. this way. 0.3 secnds int eh dance you get the akaari hits in, but now u also have 6 GCDs of dance

rugged solar May 24, 2023, 4:17 PM

#

i wanted to try that for aoe, not sure if it naturally works out well outside of aoe

#

off gcd makes more sense

#

because you could get 2nd and 3rd hit in

#

and still hit every gcd of dance

remote sparrow May 24, 2023, 4:17 PM

#

thats true for sure!

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:15 AM

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@ivory kestrel https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/guULqjxWabzLPTGdZETyzb

ivory kestrel May 25, 2023, 8:15 AM

#

guess treshold needs looking into

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:16 AM

#

initial test for a more agressive use seems to not doing well

#

i have the feeling it might be too agressive

ivory kestrel May 25, 2023, 8:16 AM

#

yea i guess it is using it on further ones

#

probably

#

i think a -15 secs and if in dance use it if it would overcap

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:17 AM

#

thats the default

ivory kestrel May 25, 2023, 8:17 AM

#

dust kind of messes things up i guess

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:17 AM

#

it uses tea if it is higher than 3/4 of the cooldown to last charge

#

during dance

#

so if tea is 15 sec away , it should use it

ivory kestrel May 25, 2023, 8:18 AM

#

let me see how many secs it has when entering dance

#

hmm i enter dance with 14 secs of cd on tea

#

then in theory it should be used now would need to look at the swift death one it may enter with more secs left

#

and that is why it does not use it

#

yep in stealthi's clip

#

it has 19 secs

#

ticks to 18 when entering

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:22 AM

#

he condition would trigger if at any point

#

you get to 15 sec remaining or less during dance

#

so maybe it is already doing what you wanted

#

in the sim

ivory kestrel May 25, 2023, 8:22 AM

#

oh possible then

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:23 AM

#

could explain why lowering it has little impact

ivory kestrel May 25, 2023, 8:23 AM

#

might need to put it somewhere in the opener/sheet

#

ye

#

robot too smart for us

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:23 AM

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haha, just means my condition was already good ^^

ivory kestrel May 25, 2023, 8:23 AM

#

yea it stood the changing times

#

now we just need to tell players to actually use it

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:34 AM

#

i think something that i personally also sometimes forget is energy

#

because tea conditions do consider energy from symbols and won't just tea if you symbols after

ivory kestrel May 25, 2023, 8:43 AM

#

well we could look at sample and see but cant rn if the condition by itself works or needs to not check energy there

rugged solar May 25, 2023, 8:47 AM

#

tea checks if symbols is up (the cooldown)

scenic schooner May 25, 2023, 8:20 PM

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remote sparrow no no, so you sectech, then you dance gb on the next gcd. this way. 0.3 secnds i...

I tried to make this work a dew weeks ago but couldnt get it to a win

remote sparrow May 25, 2023, 8:56 PM

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scenic schooner I tried to make this work a dew weeks ago but couldnt get it to a win

as in a win in sims or actually hitting dummies. Ive been spamming this on dummies and honestly doesnt seem like that big of a deal. kinda like irrelevant it seems

scenic schooner May 25, 2023, 9:09 PM

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Is sims

#

I could check again later today when im at the pc

rugged solar May 26, 2023, 1:28 PM

#

#subtlety <-

fiery iron May 26, 2023, 1:30 PM

#

Ops, wrong channel hehe

crimson idol May 27, 2023, 5:03 AM

#

Why does The Rotten sim hold second vanish for so long?

turbid pulsar May 27, 2023, 5:03 AM

#

it uses vanish roughly once per min to get 2 dances with each sepsis + flag combo

crimson idol May 27, 2023, 5:05 AM

#

So you want to vanish after during sepsis + flag

#

Post dance?

turbid pulsar May 27, 2023, 5:05 AM

#

basically after you finish the first dance and you have used sod+sepsis strikes you vanish strike and then dance once again

scenic schooner May 27, 2023, 8:25 PM

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turbid pulsar basically after you finish the first dance and you have used sod+sepsis strikes ...

in recent sims we found that it is a gain to not ss at all outside of dance

#

lingering is just strong

ivory kestrel May 27, 2023, 8:56 PM

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yea only really use it if you are doing the subter+1 long dance instead of lingering

scenic schooner May 27, 2023, 10:28 PM

#

scenic schooner in recent sims we found that it is a gain to not ss at all outside of dance

i take this back the sims i did the other day were not doing what i intended too

#

actually making them not use sepsis or vanish ss is a loss

#

but those sims were still a gain tho now i have no idea why

remote sparrow May 27, 2023, 10:36 PM

#

can you link those sims? I can go through it to see what its actually doing

#

that might help\

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 3:41 AM

#

remote sparrow can you link those sims? I can go through it to see what its actually doing

sry just now saw this

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https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/s2iuX4PaEkZA9pm1TMHLQh

Raidbots

Advanced Sim - Subtelty - 132,571 DPS - Raidbots

#

#

no SS out of dance is the thing i didi a few days ago

#

no SS late sepsis only negates ss from sepsis when lingering is at high stacks

#

no SS outOfDance new doesnt allow any sepsis SS

#

and no SS vanish doesnt allow any vanish SS

ivory kestrel May 28, 2023, 4:01 AM

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@rugged solar when you wake up remember what we talked about tea it seems it is not using it on the second dance on either the swift death one or the subterfuge/tfd one on the second dance after vanish second use of tea is at 54 secs on this sample for ex that chuffa just linked. No idea why the condition of tea -15 secs cd on dance is not triggering maybe dust messes things up

#

first use at 5 then 54

#

it means it stays overcapped for almost 30 secs

#

and will overcap again in next vanish too(or maybe not it uses it at 1.36 then at 2.01) but the -30 secs from vanish make it so it get krangled again because next use is at 3 mins

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:02 AM

#

scenic schooner

no ss out of dance : this ones mostly 'fine'. main issues : Not sure if you made it play around having double cold blood for both dances during vanish goes but more often that not, it put its sectech as last gcd so it falls outside of dance. I think this one also has a no vanish strike condition since it more often than not would vanish finish, isntead of vanish strike. (the vanish strike imo is really important thanks to premed - couple of times it refreshed snd during dance). also, did you try and make it build to full cp before going to dance? its trying to start dance with full cp and since its not using vanish strike it ends up vanish - finish - gb 2 to 3 times then second dance) and by then flag has ended on your second dance. other than that this ones good i think.

#

the no ss late sepsis one does not use sepsis second strike as you wanted it to, however this one is doing some really cursed things with symbols, essentially it is using symbols right before going into dance, losing symbols uptime, and losing rotten affect on lingering gb.

#

this also still has the issue of getting sec tech out as the last gcd of dance on top of the old issues of spending dance gcds on flag and sepsis.

#

I think overall your first one is the closest to an actual good iteration of the rotten build with some weird plays here and there. could be cleaned up for another 0.5 %- 1% imo

valid robin May 28, 2023, 6:57 AM

#

Sec tech ending up outside of dance seems to be a common issue

#

In rotten builds

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 7:04 AM

#

ivory kestrel <@194804407706189824> when you wake up remember what we talked about tea it seem...

oh interessting

#

wonder why it isn't triggering there

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 7:15 AM

#

oh also i think theres just generally one thing with all the rotten builds that is wrong. at roughly 4:22 dance usually comes up which it sends on cd. then around 4:26-4:27 blades comes up which it also sends on cd. but then sepsis and flag come up around 4:33 - 4:35. so wht it does is that it sends both flag and sepsis as soon as theyre off cd, but has no dance to send with them. so it vanishes to reset dance.

#

idk but maybe if the timer is slightly over 5 mintues like 5:05 or something, it would be quite a bit better ont hat burst to hold flag/sepsis since we're only getting one more go, and might as well get 2 dances in flag instead of 1.

valid robin May 28, 2023, 7:31 AM

#

Another option is to vanish earlier

#

If possible

#

If the killtime is around 5 minutes it could be worth to reduce flag, sepsis cd with vanish instead of playing for double dance in cds

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 7:46 AM

#

so its kinda like this

#

#

the first peak is around 240k with lust and pot

#

second and third peak are both double vanish around 185k

#

4th peak is no vanish around 150k.

#

and then every other peak in there including, 5th, 6th 7th are all 150k

#

whereas 5 will have double vanish

#

and maybe even 6

#

it just gets desynced around 5th peak and just kinda goes on after that

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 8:04 AM

#

all in all i think this builds kinda a meme. seems to be only good for fights that are basically right about 3 minutes. it significantly does more damage than the standard build around 3-minute mark (142.7 vs 137), then kinda just falls off the longer the fight gets

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 11:13 AM

#

remote sparrow no ss out of dance : this ones mostly 'fine'. main issues : Not sure if you made...

For the first one the only thing i did is remove vanish ss and sepsis ss lines from the stealthed parts

#

But in the end this does nothing causenthere is a geberal ss at the end

#

Would essentially only move them down in priority within the stealthed actions

#

For thenother 2 intook a diff aproach and changed it so that it only calls for stealthed action when in true steakthbor shd (changed stealthed.all to stealthed.rogue)

#

And to allow for sepsis ss while at low cp i added a condition for it under the action build

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 11:20 AM

#

remote sparrow no ss out of dance : this ones mostly 'fine'. main issues : Not sure if you made...

And the clones out of dance thing happens a lot with rotten build

#

I tried to fix it and also tried to do the rhing push said a while ago

#

Of delaying dance for a bit to get 2x cb sectec in a flag

#

Got it to do exactly what i wanted to (with the dance usage) but it was still a 0.7%loss

#

I still font get why tho, dance uptime was basicly the same

#

And it gained a couple of cb casts

valid robin May 28, 2023, 11:26 AM

#

maybe something else is delayed

#

or offset

#

symbols use is connected to dance usage

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 12:11 PM

#

symbols use is fairly autonom

valid robin May 28, 2023, 12:15 PM

#

isnt the 2p rule based on shadow dance cd

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 12:17 PM

#

yes, but only to the degree to not use it when dance is ready

valid robin May 28, 2023, 12:26 PM

#

yes

#

which is bad for what chuffa talked about

#

cus you delay symbols as well when you delay dance

#

in sim

#

so you delay 2 things

#

cus of that rule

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 12:26 PM

#

you don't delay dance

valid robin May 28, 2023, 12:27 PM

#

but did you read what he said

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 12:27 PM

#

moment, let me check, i think i missed something

valid robin May 28, 2023, 12:27 PM

#

yes you did

#

the entire idea revolves around delaying dance for a short while

#

but it impacts that rule

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 12:28 PM

#

Of delaying dance for a bit to get 2x cb sectec in a flag
fair ye

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 3:53 PM

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e9qbYH9KFxfdyKWvsy2keR

Raidbots

Advanced Sim - New - 132,551 DPS - Raidbots

#

here is the sim where i tried to delay dance for a bit

#

and ye it looses a bit of sod uptime

#

but only 2%

#

(!(buff.flagellation_persist.up|buff.flagellation_buff.up)|((buff.flagellation_persist.up|buff.flagellation_buff.up)&variable.cb))

#

just added this at the end of shadowdance line

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 3:55 PM

#

thanks, will look at it

#

need to do a log review now that i couldn't do because wcl was offline

#

but probably can come back to it after

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 3:56 PM

#

wait i think that part actually doesnt do much

#

actions.stealth_cds+=/variable,name=cb,value=cooldown.cold_blood.remains<4|cooldown.cold_blood.remains>=6
ye also changed the cb variable

#

from 4 sec there to 3.5

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 3:58 PM

#

oh nice, i think a bigger change was a loss

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 3:58 PM

#

well it is still a loss

#

like this tho it delays dance enough to get 2x CB in a flag window

#

i couldnt find anything rly weird that it does for it to be a loss and my intuition says it should be a gain

past fable May 28, 2023, 4:08 PM

#

Not sure if this is exclusive to your sims or just rotten in general but it often ends up vanishing right before stuff is ready anyway. It sends a symbols of death at 1:52 (so its ready at 2:17) but it instead isntantly vanishes when symbols has 1s left of its cd here.
It also does this with the last sepsis and flag cast but it shouldnt matter as much i dont think (casting sepsis at 3:02, so its ready at 4:32 yet it does this)

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:09 PM

#

hmm

#

i didnt touch vanish use

#

so i guess its in general

past fable May 28, 2023, 4:10 PM

#

And in the first case its clearly better to wait 1s with the vanish so you get an extra symbols (rotten)

#

Rather than just vanishing immediately right after dance

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:10 PM

#

but nice that meens we can squeeze more out of it

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 4:11 PM

#

past fable And in the first case its clearly better to wait 1s with the vanish so you get a...

i think it does it to reset dance cd. Maybe you cna take a look but im guessing its sending sepsis and flag but doesnt have dance ready? so it vanihses to get it ready?

#

as for the 4:30 mark one, it does it because dance wont be up until 4:50 ish usually. so it resets it since time till end of combat will not fit another dance in it, so it vanishes to sync it up with sepsis flag

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:13 PM

#

past fable Not sure if this is exclusive to your sims or just rotten in general but it ofte...

wait it shouldnt be able to do this

#

sim i ssupposed to check for flag cd

#

it only vanishes if flag cd >60

#

fight_remains<=(30*cooldown.vanish.charges) oh must be the fallback

past fable May 28, 2023, 4:13 PM

#

Its some timetodie stuff ye

#

But it should be able to setup a better final sequence

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 4:14 PM

#

scenic schooner i couldnt find anything rly weird that it does for it to be a loss and my intuit...

oh also just fomr a quick look i think the difference comes from lingering and evis. holding dance seems to make your lingering weaker, but also seems to somehow get fewer evis out

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:14 PM

#

remote sparrow oh also just fomr a quick look i think the difference comes from lingering and e...

that seems weird

#

in my mind lingering would be stronger

#

because u dont overwrite it as much

#

by holding for a few extra seconds

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 4:15 PM

#

scenic schooner in my mind lingering would be stronger

no the sooner u dance again, the sooner you get 30% on higher stacks lingering and also rotten on top of higher stacks lingering

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:16 PM

#

remote sparrow no the sooner u dance again, the sooner you get 30% on higher stacks lingering a...

well but u also overwrite a bit chunk of the first lingering

#

i guess we are talking small delays tho but still

past fable May 28, 2023, 4:16 PM

#

scenic schooner but nice that meens we can squeeze more out of it

Also using beacon after the first dance in opener is likely to be better with this as thats a good way to "fill globals"

#

Atleast in my mind better than a random gloomblade that its currently doing

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 4:18 PM

#

past fable Its some timetodie stuff ye

it shouldnt have any time to die stuff at 2 min mark though. I saw the behavior it does at 4:30 min with all the different APL's, I tried making the fights longer to give it time to see if that was why but it wasnt, it would dance, then sepsis flag would come up a few seconds later, and it had no dance, so it would vanish to get a dance back for this sepsis flag

past fable May 28, 2023, 4:19 PM

#

Well the 2 minute mark stuff i linked was for symbols not sepsis+flag

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:19 PM

#

past fable Not sure if this is exclusive to your sims or just rotten in general but it ofte...

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/upkBzaEdhwLq8gi3obDSTt

Raidbots

Advanced Sim - New - 132,773 DPS - Raidbots

#

aha

#

nice find eleem

#

just checking for sod cd before vanishing

#

checking for 3 4 and 5 sec left on cd

past fable May 28, 2023, 4:20 PM

#

Thats just a general profile and not the "double cb" one ye?

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:20 PM

#

ye

#

its the base one

#

number seemes to be between 2 and 3 seconds

#

gonna run bigger iterations

#

even with 50k iterations seems to be equal

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:27 PM

#

scenic schooner https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/upkBzaEdhwLq8gi3obDSTt

@rugged solar new gain 🙂

valid robin May 28, 2023, 4:27 PM

#

Kinda stupid it vanishes

#

When sepsis has 1 sec left

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:27 PM

#

yea could check te fallback a bit

valid robin May 28, 2023, 4:27 PM

#

If anything it could send that vanish way earlier

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:28 PM

#

maybe just cange the fallback to ve dependend on flag cd

valid robin May 28, 2023, 4:28 PM

#

After the former dance window is over

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:28 PM

#

and not fixed 30sec

valid robin May 28, 2023, 4:28 PM

#

Ye i mean flag will almost always be up 4:30 ish

#

So makes no sense to have exactly 30 sec as the ttd line

past fable May 28, 2023, 4:28 PM

#

@scenic schooner another thing that im fairly sure should be a gain is to use another tea in your flag opener for the second dance

#

Because currently its sitting at 3 charges for like 20 seconds

#

Its cast at 5 seconds and then at 56 seconds, despite it having a 30s cd since you vanish

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 4:29 PM

#

scenic schooner <@194804407706189824> new gain 🙂

oh wow nice

#

good find

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 4:31 PM

#

rugged solar oh wow nice

&(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>3)
added this to the vanish line

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 4:31 PM

#

thats simpler than expected

#

love it, simple changes are nice

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:06 PM

#

past fable <@176352306638356480> another thing that im fairly sure should be a gain is to u...

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xrBtw7KuavEvvjyvqA1V9R i had to cheat to get it to do what i want

Raidbots

Advanced Sim - New - 132,237 DPS - Raidbots

#

but it was a loss

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:07 PM

#

It just seems really odd that its worth it to sit on 3 charges for like 20 seconds

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:08 PM

#

yup its weird

#

i thougth it would be a gain

#

actions.cds+=/thistle_tea,line_cd=100000,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&!buff.thistle_tea.up
fuu would find my line real funny lol

mystic sequoia May 28, 2023, 5:09 PM

#

Sounds more generic if you have while charges = 3

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:10 PM

#

there is a fractional 2.75 in the tea line itself that sends tea in dance if its about to overcap

mystic sequoia May 28, 2023, 5:11 PM

#

I'm just unsure what that aims to accomplish

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:11 PM

#

sim was holding on 3 tea charges for over 20 sec

#

cause it didnt drop ion energery

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:12 PM

#

scenic schooner there is a fractional 2.75 in the tea line itself that sends tea in dance if its...

Ye and just setting that to 2.5 instead so it uses it on ~40s dance is also a loss

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:12 PM

#

and didnt enter another shadowdance for it to check for the fractional 2.75

#

so the idea was to just force it to use it on the second dance in the opener

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:13 PM

#

scenic schooner `actions.cds+=/thistle_tea,line_cd=100000,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&!buff.thistle_...

so to not change the other line and not impact the rest of the fight i cheated by adding this below the original line

#

since it already uses tea on the first dance the line will trigger on the second dance and never again

#

quick cheat to see if it was actually a gain to do so or not

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:14 PM

#

scenic schooner `actions.cds+=/thistle_tea,line_cd=100000,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&!buff.thistle_...

i love how quick you tested the line_cd

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:15 PM

#

worked like a charm lol

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:15 PM

#

does the vanish change you linked includes all other changes we made

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:16 PM

#

no, all the things i liked are with the base profile as comparison

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:16 PM

#

monkahmm

#

then lets see how much it gives in addition to the other chanegs

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vaPBQahdWFAUpp51gRsFHh

Raidbots

Advanced Sim - New - 132,924 DPS - Raidbots

#

not sure if that has everything

#

but close to 133k

#

given that we can change to toxic boots

#

should be above

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:23 PM

#

Which ones does this have so far?

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:23 PM

#

i need to look

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:23 PM

#

We had 3 prior to this I believe right?.

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:23 PM

#

but i think it is "everything"

#

we had like 5 or 7

#

the problem is a lot of them ended up 0 dps change

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:23 PM

#

Oh I thought it was 3 main ones

#

Ah I see haha yeah

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:23 PM

#

it was ye

#

but i just used the profile with all chanegs

#

so it is atm not isolated

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:24 PM

#

scenic schooner sim was holding on 3 tea charges for over 20 sec

But if it was holding wouldnt cooldown.thistle_tea.charges_fractional>=2.75&buff.shadow_dance.up trigger? >2.75 means the third charge has less than 15 seconds left before its ready right?

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:24 PM

#

like this was the list

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:24 PM

#

But yeah I think changing to toxic + some gearing change to focus more on vers could put.kt.in mid 133k

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:24 PM

#

and i think we had potentially 2-3 more

#

including this one

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:25 PM

#

Comparing logs it actually seems like dust builds only get about ~0.4 more uses of tea across the entire fight, which seems very low. As it casts vanish 3.8 times it should be getting roughly 1.9 extra tea usages

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:26 PM

#

think there migth be more optimizations

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:26 PM

#

Or atleast more than 0.4

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:26 PM

#

so ye, completely with you

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:26 PM

#

But fuu im reading this line correctly right? #1065728795455266888 message

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:27 PM

#

you do

#

it means if the remaining cooldown of tea to reach last charge is 15 sec or lower

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:27 PM

#

Is tea not getting reduced properly by vanish?

#

Because then it should trigger

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:28 PM

#

this is what i discussed with hacha recently

#

but i didn't look at what the sim did, so not sure if there is or was a issue

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:28 PM

#

If you cast a tea at 5 seconds and vanish, youll cap all of your tea charges at 35 seconds right?

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:28 PM

#

keep in mind that shadow dance is a pre condition to it

#

so it isn't just "15 or less" but must be "during dance"

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:29 PM

#

So the shadow dance at 38-42 seconds depending on timing should absolutely use it

#

Since by that point the fractional is 3

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:29 PM

#

that was the conclusion we had with hacha too

#

it should cover the case discribed

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:30 PM

#

Could it be that this build is kinda drowned in energy and doesn't require that much tea usage? And only uses it if it's overcapped?

#

Or a few rare times that it's starved?

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:31 PM

#

would still use it at the end of the fight

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:31 PM

#

That's fair, can we test what happens if we use teach with vanish gos for mastery if we have atleast 2 tea charges?

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:31 PM

#

sure

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:32 PM

#

remote sparrow That's fair, can we test what happens if we use teach with vanish gos for master...

Chuffa tested it using tea on the second dance

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:32 PM

#

I think it's better on first dance tbh so w eget it reset with vanish

#

U might run into actual energy issues if you're not resetting it with vanish

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:33 PM

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m3BgRnyxuw6hAvZaXmEXNA

#

is 0.2% worse

#

than default use

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:34 PM

#

Vanish properly reduces tea CD atleast (it gets ~1.8 more uses across the fight if there are no conditions attached to tea).

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:34 PM

#

(using it with 2 charges or more)

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:34 PM

#

But im still so confused as to why that line doesnt trigger

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:34 PM

#

past fable Is tea not getting reduced properly by vanish?

this is the part of the simc github code that sais what gets reduced and what not, thistle tea is in there so it should get reduced

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:34 PM

#

scenic schooner this is the part of the simc github code that sais what gets reduced and what no...

Ye i did one without any conditions and it did incease it by 1.8

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:34 PM

#

does not seem to be a simc issue

#

but rather a condition issue

#

losing 1.8 casts is quite big tbh

#

maybe we need to add additional trigger conditions

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:35 PM

#

Maybe its because tea is actually never at 15 seconds left

#

So the fractional condition doesnt register? But it should since its not equal to

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:36 PM

#

Maybe there's a sweet spot for tea like 2.5 or something ( the last one fuu tested)

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:37 PM

#

i did lower it in the one sim i did when hacha asked

#

#1065728795455266888 message

#

but that one did not increase the uses

#

how many uses would be "on cd"

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:38 PM

#

9.3

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:38 PM

#

(moment, ill sim it)

#

oh thanks

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:39 PM

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eo7eCC67EHsnCV6KHvK7fT

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:39 PM

#

so 1.5 charges lost

#

so at least 1 more use should be somewhere

#

we just need to find out good conditions for it

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:40 PM

#

rugged solar so at least 1 more use should be somewhere

if we had one 'free' use somewhere then why was fixing it to the second dance a loss?

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:41 PM

#

Because the fix didnt increase the overall count by that much

scenic schooner May 28, 2023, 5:41 PM

#

oh true

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:41 PM

#

It made it use 8 teas instead of 7.8

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:43 PM

#

^

past fable May 28, 2023, 5:43 PM

#

Although if i check the rotten sim on fuus sheet it does indeed use a tea around 35 seconds (ie exactly when you get to 3 stacks)

#

But its still 7.8 total

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:45 PM

#

lets check something simple

#

nice

#

but, not nice

#

the easy change (checking cooldown on tea for vanish use) was not good

#

this is decent

#

and only 0.3% worse

#

the line triggers only once

remote sparrow May 28, 2023, 5:59 PM

#

its so weird that getting more tea uses is becoming a loss though...

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 5:59 PM

#

it is more that

#

the overlap discribed is probably not the biggest loss

ivory kestrel May 28, 2023, 6:51 PM

#

just came back i think the important one is only on pull then maybe after first vanish

#

that is where the cap kinda gets snowballed

#

a dirty change we could do for this is make it use tea if cb is about to come off cd or off cd in dance

#

and we have 2 charges almost 3

past fable May 28, 2023, 6:55 PM

#

ivory kestrel just came back i think the important one is only on pull then maybe after first ...

Its not about using teas "incorrectly" its about the sim not using all of the teas it should. It should have 9.3 teas but it only uses 7.8 of them

ivory kestrel May 28, 2023, 6:56 PM

#

ye

#

but those 2 first ones are the snowball kinda

past fable May 28, 2023, 6:56 PM

#

?

ivory kestrel May 28, 2023, 6:57 PM

#

the one after the first vanish

past fable May 28, 2023, 6:57 PM

#

It doesnt cap at the start

ivory kestrel May 28, 2023, 6:57 PM

#

it does i put it on a comment today before sleep

#

it uses it at 5 then 54 secs

past fable May 28, 2023, 6:57 PM

#

Sometimes, but not always

#

Most of the time its at 3, 35, 55

#

But it still ends up with fewer than expected casts

ivory kestrel May 28, 2023, 6:58 PM

#

yea gotta find why it is not used in the second dance after first vanish

#

and other places

past fable May 28, 2023, 6:58 PM

#

Because the same conditions that makes it cap there is applied in other places

ivory kestrel May 28, 2023, 6:58 PM

#

i also found some at 3 mins where it held for like 20 secs too

#

so time to play detective ehehe

vague python May 28, 2023, 8:39 PM

#

Apologies if this is not for here but I have this addon that tracks "wasted" GCDs, how accurate that is for our spec ? Is it also based when we are starved and cannot press our GCD? Anyone familiar with similar addons?

#

I am currently around 25-30% wasted GCDs which feels like a lot

valid robin May 28, 2023, 8:41 PM

#

well we are not casters

#

we dont have "wasted gcds" in the same sense

#

we are not gcd capped either

rugged solar May 28, 2023, 8:44 PM

#

i assume what he asks for is a counter for dance gcds

#

there is nothing like this, but you can probably write a counter for it fairly easy

vague python May 28, 2023, 8:55 PM

#

Ok that make sense, thanks guys

low breach May 28, 2023, 9:49 PM

#

vague python

where did you find this? Cant find on wago

vague python May 28, 2023, 10:31 PM

#

low breach where did you find this? Cant find on wago

Ive deleted it, but its on wago, you dont need it as mentioned above by fuu and Push

past fable May 30, 2023, 2:01 PM

#

Seems like its using shadowstrike,if=debuff.find_weakness.remains<=1|cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains<18&debuff.find_weakness.remains<cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains this line to try to apply find weakness, and as this line has nothing with premed or rotten it just ends up wasting all of that cp. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m3BgRnyxuw6hAvZaXmEXNA/simc (the vanish one from #1065728795455266888 message )

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 2:03 PM

#

probably just needs a rotten check

past fable May 30, 2023, 2:03 PM

#

And its not using gloomblade because it has more than 2 combo points, ive seen it happen on 4 cp too

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 2:04 PM

#

should be easy to fix, i atm working on the apl conditions, so can include that

#

in my tests

past fable May 30, 2023, 2:04 PM

#

But im curious if its worth delaying dance by a global to get to 5 or 6+ cp for a finisher or finishing at like 4 cp instead of having to waste all of that cp

#

The vanish strikes sometimes eats it too

#

Which might be why it was a gain to not use them

#

Like here its using the rotten and premed at 4 cp with the vanish strike

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:14 PM

#

okay, found what condition is problematic for the standard build

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:33 PM

#

past fable Seems like its using ```shadowstrike,if=debuff.find_weakness.remains<=1|cooldown...

the line seems redundant

#

at least at its current position

#

testing, but i can probably just remove it

#

yep, purge!

past fable May 30, 2023, 3:40 PM

#

Ye its assuming that shadowstrike applies find weakness

#

So i guess its only useful if you have that specced in the rogue tree

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:40 PM

#

not even then

#

the next action after it is shadowstrike

#

so even if it wouldn't trigger, it would default to it

#

but even with the talent, it is redundant

past fable May 30, 2023, 3:41 PM

#

But it triggered like 16 times in the sim i linked

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:41 PM

#

i tested shifting it, didn't rly change things

past fable May 30, 2023, 3:41 PM

#

But ye its just the same as the one bellow it ig

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:41 PM

#

those 16 would just defualt to use strike anyways

#

so no diffrence

past fable May 30, 2023, 3:42 PM

#

Fair enough

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:42 PM

#

this is why i tried shifting it in position

#

the line was probably a artifact from SL

#

because with FW applying from GB, you don't rly need it anymore

#

doing low cp finisher to avoid wasting rotten seems not good

#

best case equal

#

delaying dance seems fine

#

its not much but honest work

past fable May 30, 2023, 3:53 PM

#

Is that delaying to the regular 6+ or just sending it at 5 (just curious, idk whats best)

#

But ye looking nice

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:54 PM

#

just delaying if on 3 or 4 cp

#

because it would end up wasting cps

past fable May 30, 2023, 3:55 PM

#

I see i see

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:55 PM

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very close to 133k

past fable May 30, 2023, 3:55 PM

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Then comes the annoying question of whether its worth to hold a global or half a global if youre at like 1-2 cp and dance is coming up

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:56 PM

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wdym

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oh you mean not using abilities

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rarely worth it

past fable May 30, 2023, 3:56 PM

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Ye i doubt that too

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Esp since rotten is just drowning in resources that were trying to reduce the overflow of kekman

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 3:57 PM

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you lose damage from casts

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it was already rly hard to delay things for sht

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doing stuff like aa cancles ended up a loss

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so it is usually better to just be wasteful

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but nice find, i still hope to get the 1 tea use somewhere

ivory kestrel May 30, 2023, 4:23 PM

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yea the beginning 2 are kinda set in stone i think

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then we need to play detective to find the other ones

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where it overcaps

past fable May 30, 2023, 4:43 PM

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rugged solar delaying dance seems fine

Could you link the sim here so i could copy the profile and try some things? (if it has all the changes we've done that is)

vague python May 30, 2023, 4:47 PM

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Is there a guide on how we can compare different APLs in raidbots?

ivory kestrel May 30, 2023, 4:51 PM

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have to do it like fuu does kinda with diff gearsets+ conditions

mystic sequoia May 30, 2023, 4:59 PM

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Easiest way is just to add

copy="xyz"
{full rotational apl under here}

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 5:01 PM

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https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5XQVbnXhEQA8e8Jy6RcKCH

Raidbots

Advanced Sim - Subtlety - 132,957 DPS - Raidbots

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was eating something, back now

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would be the profile

📎 message.txt

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but it needs a lot more testing

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esp. for multi target fights its all over the place for rotten

lilac crescent May 30, 2023, 5:20 PM

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I would not even bother trying to make it work in multi target

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fruitless endeavour

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 5:40 PM

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not sure, i already optimized rotten to a degree for it before

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think its weekly reset

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not getting better ^^

past fable May 30, 2023, 6:06 PM

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Tuesday and wednesday not theorycrafting days kekman

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 6:33 PM

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already getting better

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trying to isolate some issues with a specific target count

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 7:01 PM

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will take a bit

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not too long, neither has a insane amount of copy statements

vague python May 30, 2023, 7:03 PM

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rugged solar will take a bit

What is this browser that you using? Chromium?

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 7:03 PM

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yes

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its a modified chromium with avx2 support, widewive support, some compiler optimizations and additional codecs (AAC + H.264 + H.265)

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(i also replaced the icon with a gray scale version of the edge browser icon)

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you can download pre compiled versions from https://chromium.woolyss.com/ if you want to move away from chrome or whatever you use, but don't think its smart for the majority (you lose auto updating by doing so)

vague python May 30, 2023, 7:22 PM

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I will look into it, currently on firefox but its starting to eat up a bit too much RAM

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 7:26 PM

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newer versions of chrome have memory saver feature, but i think we should move this to either dm or #off-topic

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alright

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with that, i managed to have it dps positive on any target count

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need to check a bit more

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alright, this looks good:

📎 message.txt

vague python May 30, 2023, 8:38 PM

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Is this for multiple targets? Or single? I am guessing multiple since its 30k increase and that would be broken for single lol

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 8:40 PM

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the linked one above was on 3 targets

vague python May 30, 2023, 8:42 PM

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I am looking for new spec to try, we are progressing on forbidden experiments, will give this one a shot, thanks

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Do I just put the above apl in custom to sim vs my current gear?

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 8:45 PM

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rugged solar alright, this looks good:

^ just put this in custom apl

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nothing else needed

vague python May 30, 2023, 8:45 PM

#

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4.2k increase

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 8:46 PM

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also this channel is for theorycrafting, more casual talk should be in #subtlety

vague python May 30, 2023, 8:46 PM

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Ah ok, sorry

rugged solar May 30, 2023, 8:47 PM

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all fine, if you find something to improve in the sim, this would be the channel to talk about it

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for what sims best, gear or rotation questions, etc thats all in the main channel

vague python May 31, 2023, 6:11 PM

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Can the above apl be used for single target as well fuu?

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Or is there a different one for that

ivory kestrel May 31, 2023, 6:37 PM

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fuu was just cleaning it so it is not a loss for the other talent sets iirc

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and cleave etc

rugged solar May 31, 2023, 6:50 PM

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will soon be baseline

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but its ready to go as is for any fight style

rugged solar Jun 1, 2023, 11:39 AM

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rugged solar alright, this looks good:

real lodge Jun 1, 2023, 5:14 PM

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Did something change and made dark brew ressurge again as a competitive option for dslice?
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-2/all/tw/leaderboards

valid robin Jun 1, 2023, 5:24 PM

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nah

rugged solar Jun 1, 2023, 5:25 PM

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you see it on wcl too, dark brew is still played even tho rotten and the flag builds will perform noticably better

lilac crescent Jun 1, 2023, 8:24 PM

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real lodge Did something change and made dark brew ressurge again as a competitive option f...

you'll usually find it is the non-english speaking nations that use it too because they don't really use/have access to any of the theorycrafting we have here

valid robin Jun 1, 2023, 8:36 PM

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the chinese crowd is also extremely influenced by huge streamers that play rogue

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so if that dude plays dark brew, they will all do it

real lodge Jun 1, 2023, 8:41 PM

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lilac crescent you'll usually find it is the non-english speaking nations that use it too becau...

I wondered about this too, if they had access to our WCL.

quaint snow Jun 1, 2023, 9:13 PM

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i saw he has his own guide about sub rogue this tier, some spreadsheets even, but hey i have 0 idea what he says xd

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pretty sure he has a reason why he is not taking flag but yeah

low breach Jun 1, 2023, 10:42 PM

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quaint snow i saw he has his own guide about sub rogue this tier, some spreadsheets even, bu...

Tbf it shows imo just how good the sub rogue tree is that we have so many competitive talent builds. So gj blizzard

ivory kestrel Jun 1, 2023, 10:42 PM

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i talk with some spanish rogues and they do not understand 2 words of english so most of what they consume is videos

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like i could translate the guides but i think they would lose some meanings

rugged solar Jun 4, 2023, 4:00 PM

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found another edge case i need to look at with the rotten optimizations for multi target sims

lyric anchor Jun 5, 2023, 6:14 AM

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Does Cold Blood affect trinkets crit chance? I was thinking about this last night. What if we use CB-Beacon-Sectec? It probably would only work with Rotten build.

ivory kestrel Jun 5, 2023, 6:15 AM

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nope cold blood is abilities only

lyric anchor Jun 5, 2023, 6:15 AM

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Yikes, was worth a shot

rugged solar Jun 5, 2023, 6:23 AM

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It works on every ability, but some in non expected ways.
E.g. for sub it makes all hits of secret crit, but for outlaw it does not for KS.
Dots or multi-part attacks also don't work most of the time or only get parts of the spell affected.

modern fern Jun 5, 2023, 7:19 AM

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real lodge I wondered about this too, if they had access to our WCL.

Ofc we can access wcl from any area and study any English information , but yes most Chinese players just get their information from videos of some huge streamer like yeluo and completely imitate his talent

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The reason why he does not use flag build is because he feels that if the flag buff cannot cover two dances in each pull, the flag build is not as good as DB. It seems to have some truth but it is difficult to prove. Chinese players believe him because his IO score is currently the highest lul

rugged solar Jun 5, 2023, 7:24 AM

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for DB, i could see reasons why you would play it in m+

modern fern Jun 5, 2023, 7:26 AM

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To put it simply, most Chinese players have quite strong plots, they don't easily believe in any data and simc, only believe in IO score

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kekman

rugged solar Jun 5, 2023, 7:30 AM

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statistics will over time show the difference if its big enough, for me personally there is a lot of reason to have both interact with each other so players can make educated decisions

ivory kestrel Jun 5, 2023, 7:30 AM

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Many things would get lost in translation but you can play db if you dont mind not having peaks in dmg it also benefits rupture omegaspreading

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while gathering mobs for big pulls

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but in the end the diff won't be huge anyway

rugged solar Jun 5, 2023, 7:31 AM

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DB has diffrent trade offs, and in the end it comes down to what trade off you take. So i don't think its bad in m+ in any way.

fervent ivy Jun 11, 2023, 2:19 AM

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hey, i had a couple questions about the sims, one was probably more relevant in s1, so i was curious if it has been tested in the past.
if, in a DB build, it's worth putting out a low CP rupture (3+?) at the start of combat to proc finality and then refreshing it after your first dance with a full finality rupture?

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I remember doing it in vault and looking at some logs of top sub rogues doing it, but idk if it was ever simmed or if it came out as a loss/gain,

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other question was if the dance energy threshold was modified for tier 30 bonus, or if it's irrelevant to pool anymore with the tier set, even without shadow focus

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i noticed in the apl, the threshold doesn't seem to have changed at least

rough dove Jun 11, 2023, 2:50 AM

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Regarding the treshold in st without shadow focus i think it should be 40-50 energy to be able to get all gcd's off in damce

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So basically in full aoe m+ build

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You want to pool to 40-50 energy cause symbols from tset gives you 30 energy so you have enough energy to start the dance with

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iirc it was 80energy or so to be safe on getting all gcds in dance without starving

remote sparrow Jun 11, 2023, 4:11 AM

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fervent ivy hey, i had a couple questions about the sims, one was probably more relevant in ...

this was tested. it was not worth it.

fervent ivy Jun 11, 2023, 4:13 AM

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ok thank you both @remote sparrow @rough dove

sour patio Jun 15, 2023, 2:51 PM

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Is there any proven benefit, delaying tea usage if Shadow Dance or Symbols of Death are coming off CD shortly? to avoid the SD or SoD cast overcapping energy?

rugged solar Jun 15, 2023, 2:53 PM

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yes, the apl considers things like symbols cooldown

sour patio Jun 15, 2023, 2:56 PM

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ah okay perfect!

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thistle_tea,if=(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>=3|buff.symbols_of_death.up)&!buff.thistle_tea.up&(energy.deficit>=100&(combo_points.deficit>=2

So, is it only looking at the CD of SoD and not Shadow Dance?

If so, wouldn't it make sense to also take into account shadow Dance with the tier set?

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Sorry if it does this somewhere else, im not the best at APL stuff

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And also whats the logic behind the CP deficit >=2

rugged solar Jun 15, 2023, 3:07 PM

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actions.cds+=/thistle_tea,if=(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>=3|buff.symbols_of_death.up)&!buff.thistle_tea.up&(energy.deficit>=100&(combo_points.deficit>=2|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3)|cooldown.thistle_tea.charges_fractional>=2.75&buff.shadow_dance.up)|buff.shadow_dance.remains>=4&!buff.thistle_tea.up&spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3|!buff.thistle_tea.up&fight_remains<=(6*cooldown.thistle_tea.charges)

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is the apl line

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cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>=3 - checks symbols
combo_points.deficit>=2 is to not use tea followed by a finisher

sour patio Jun 15, 2023, 3:11 PM

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Okay that makes sense, would checking the CD of Shadow Dance not be helpful too, with the tier set?

rugged solar Jun 15, 2023, 3:12 PM

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it wasn't a gain to add that

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https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2xVTtmxLZStxL1UhuMVKKc

sour patio Jun 15, 2023, 3:13 PM

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Okay ty, just wanted to check!

rugged solar Jun 15, 2023, 3:13 PM

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would probably need to be more specific

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but it is a good question, because most people forget to consider energy efficiency

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i did put a note in !tea as a reminder to think about it

sour patio Jun 15, 2023, 3:16 PM

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Yeah, just a thought i had when hitting dummies in valdraken, cheers for the help

rugged solar Jun 15, 2023, 3:17 PM

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if you have more questions or input always happy to discuss or test things

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btw. just to explain combo_points.deficit>=2
deficit is the inverse function, so this means with 2 or more cp missing

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not sure if thats obviouse ^^

sour patio Jun 15, 2023, 3:20 PM

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Yeah, understood that part. Will let you know, very early idea at the moment.

Just trying to work on my tea usage, i feel like it will pay off to be more picky about when i pop it, based on the fact that besides on pull, its never sat on 3 stacks not being used.

Would like to be as energy efficient as possible!

rugged solar Jun 15, 2023, 3:22 PM

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Tea definitely ended up being one of the nicer cooldowns

sour patio Jun 15, 2023, 3:24 PM

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Yeah agreed, I disliked it at first but the more i play with it its a very nice button to press

rough dove Jun 15, 2023, 3:26 PM

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agreed, tea is a very nice QoL they added with Dragonflight ngl

remote sparrow Jun 15, 2023, 5:58 PM

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rugged solar Tea definitely ended up being one of the nicer cooldowns

I kinda disagree. Tea is only good because youre spamming gb at at a high APM. if we the damage distribution shifted towards stronger finishers and less frequent builders tea would not be very useful imo

rugged solar Jun 15, 2023, 6:24 PM

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Tea is good because it has more than one area of use

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you use it for energy on lower target counts to get out more ability casts

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and for mastery on higher target counts when energy becomes less relevant

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so there is a balance between what is the better benefit

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i think this is a good design as it isn't one directional

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:21 PM

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Our talents that got nerfed seems to be behaving differently ingame compared to in sims. First up im seeing it "double dip" on shadowblades and lingering shadows, for example here in my testing https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gxwCRDQnjfFTcJzk/#fight=4&type=damage-done&source=1&view=events
You can see that lingering shadows does noticeably more than 100% of the damage of the gloomblade it procced of, same with the shadowblades doing more than 50%. This does not seem to be the case in sims where log=1 shows me

12.989 Player 'Eleem' gloomblade hits Player 'Target Dummy' for 9292.028897778806 shadow damage (hit)
12.989 Player 'Eleem' performs Action shadow_blades_attack (150)
12.989 Player 'Eleem' shadow_blades_attack hits Player 'Target Dummy' for 4646 shadow damage (hit)
12.989 Player 'Eleem' performs Action lingering_shadow (150)
12.989 Player 'Eleem' lingering_shadow hits Player 'Target Dummy' for 8735 shadow damage (hit)```

Here we can see that the lingering shadows is exactly 94% of the damage of the gloomblade (its not fully stacked to 100%, 1 stack dropped) and the shadow blades is exactly 50% of the gloomblade

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Ok now they ended up in the wrong order since discord embeds the picture after for some reason, but the picture is from my ingame testing and the text is from simc

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Here is an example from logs when im not playing DD or DB

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Matches exactly like it does in simc

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:26 PM

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what would match the in game behaviour?

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all 3 amps (veiltouched/dd/brew)?

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:30 PM

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The first picture i linked didnt run VT either but with testing now it seems to work the same as the others

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So RN in sims it works like this

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:30 PM

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~123%

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:30 PM

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Shadowblades 50 damage
Lingering Shadows 100 damage```

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Ingame it works like this

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:31 PM

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yes, it seems like it does not apply the damage amps in the sim from what you posted

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:31 PM

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Shadowblades 67 damage (50 x DD x DB x VT)
Lingering Shadows 134 damage (100 x DD x DB x VT)

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:31 PM

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but does it work with all damage amps or just specific

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:32 PM

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Its also very interesting because it seems like the clones from sectech double dips from these effects, ie it gets the amp "when cast" and then again when the clones hit.

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With none of them talented and with all of them talented

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Or maybe not multiplicatively, additively seems to line up better

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Also worth noting that all of these tests ive done are done with this and no other proc effect that would increase my spell damage

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:37 PM

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it is quite a lot stronger

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the clone attack does ~26% more damage than the physical hit in the first image

mental dirge Jun 20, 2023, 6:37 PM

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aMonkaHmm

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:38 PM

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the clone attack does ~118% more damage in the second image

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thats roughly 4 times the value (4.5 times more exact)

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:39 PM

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The first picture didnt have any of the talents talented

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So if it were working like we'd expect the shadow part should be doing ~34% more when i talented into those talents

mental dirge Jun 20, 2023, 6:40 PM

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so VT/DD/DB are undersimming by a lot?

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:40 PM

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shadow part does not get reduced by armor

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:40 PM

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But it seems to do ~65% more, which is why im thinking it might just get twice the value from the talents (so ~68% is what it should be without variance)

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:40 PM

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so it should be higher always

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:40 PM

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Well ye fuu im not saying compared to the physical part

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Im saying that the right image should be ~34% higher

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:41 PM

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oh ye

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:41 PM

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But instead its in the ballpark of 68% higher

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:41 PM

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right should be ~96-97k

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not 121

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but

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if you apply the damage amps twice, we are close to the 121

past fable Jun 20, 2023, 6:42 PM

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Ye thats what im saying

rugged solar Jun 20, 2023, 6:46 PM

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@coarse laurel possibly has some ideas.
Short tl;dr:
It seems like deeper etc don't apply to shadow blades and lingering shadows in the sim but do so in game.
Additionally, Secret Technique seems to do noticeable more damage on the shadow parts than expected (seemingly gets the damage amps from applied twice)

coarse laurel Jun 20, 2023, 6:47 PM

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I think this is a side effect of them whitelisting the damage modifiers

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If they accidentally included Shadow Blades in the family lists that they added

#tc-subtlety