#tc-research

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

spring trench
#

oh

spiral light
#

Press the + sign here and you have all the options right there.

image.png
spring trench
#

Roger that

#

thanks, I didn't realize.

little hill
#

sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, how would you sim a tinker module since its not an option under the gem list?

potent ferry
#

I did improve cto builds a bit more than standard ho dance, it's pretty close now also in aoe

#

1pt cto drops GSW. 2pt cto drops GSW and HH

#

Should probably increase the number of iterations and clean this up a bit but it's a pain on a phone

knotty oriole
half karma
#

should be hidden opp builds

#

no kir here Im pretty sure

knotty oriole
#

I think using the new expressions I added this could maybe be simplified even further to:

actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,value=rtb_buffs.will_lose<2+buff.loaded_dice.up&!rtb_buffs.will_lose.skull_and_crossbones&!rtb_buffs.will_lose.broadside
Seems to be the same with the builds above anyway. But these would need to be tested with more builds just to be sure there aren't more exceptions.

#

Checking will_lose total seems to be worse for KiR builds which indicates to me some accidental rerolling is better, so there's probably something better there potentially

#

(Since technically there should be no reason avoiding rerolling because of buffs you won't lose would be a loss otherwise)

#

Very interesting, not sure I've seen this before but I guess it makes sense given the KiR logic needing 3 good matches.

#

KiR basically doesn't like single buffs at all no matter what

#

Other than SnC

#

1 = broadside,
2 = buried_treasure,
3 = grand_melee,
4 = ruthless_precision,
5 = skull_and_crossbones,
6 = true_bearing

#

BT+GM still gutter trash as normal 😄

#

That's Resounding Clarity + Keep it Rolling build

#

With LD forcefully disabled to keep the random case from being unfair

#

So either way this indicates the Broadside rule is not good for KiR most likely

#

But maybe borderline

#

Results for HO Dance build even more wild though lol

#

Basically only cares about fishing for SnC

#

Above almost everything else

#

Also GM plz...

solid summit
#

is this assuming that we have 100% uptime on those buffs?

knotty oriole
#

This is with fixed_rtb=X

#

Which basically forces every RtB roll to yield that result

#

And the APL modified slightly to never reroll

solid summit
#

got it

#

wonder if it will look different if we spam rtb to fish for snc though (HO)

knotty oriole
#

It does look like that is likely the play for HO

#

Doing some quick tests

potent ferry
#

Was minor stuff though, was trying to eek out a few more ambushes and dispatches for ho cto builds

#

Ah rtb_buffs.will_lose is already a counter, nice

knotty oriole
#

Trying to find rules for KiR right now is rather hard though lol

potent ferry
#

I know, it's a pain

knotty oriole
#

HO seems to pretty clearly just prefer fishing for SnC, especially at lower gear levels

#

A lot of this kinda goes away with BiS (it's only like 0.1-0.2% at BiS, but at lower gear levels it's up to like 0.6%)

potent ferry
#

What I was really trying to achieve was to make ho dance cto builds outperform gsw

#

Think it might be possible

knotty oriole
#

Seems very close when I last looked

potent ferry
#

Gcds are pretty expensive as ho dance. Should probably try to work in some pandemic logic as well

#

Rerolling without pandemic (but with the buff up) should probably have very strict rules even though snc is very strong. There is also the loaded dice factor to try to optimize. There is a lot of variables

#

Gcds in dance and to a lesser extent subterfuge are also extra expensive

knotty oriole
#

Didn't really see much gain for checking LD

potent ferry
#

Tried a few different lines based on your sim above but didn't find anything that beat one I already had

#

This monster perfermed best yesterday
variable,name=rtb_reroll,value=!rtb_buffs.will_lose.skull_and_crossbones&!rtb_buffs.will_lose.broadside&(rtb_buffs.will_lose.true_bearing+rtb_buffs.will_lose.ruthless_precision<2)&(rtb_buffs.normal+rtb_buffs.shorter<1|rtb_buffs.normal+rtb_buffs.shorter<2&buff.shadow_dance.down|rtb_buffs.normal+rtb_buffs.shorter<4&buff.loaded_dice.up&!buff.shadow_dance.up)

#

Can be simplified a bit though. Didn't know that rtb_buffs.will_lose was a counter for example

#

I may have run too few iterations though

#

This one is very restrictive

knotty oriole
#

For HO messing around with it today I didn't really see much better than just pure fishing for SnC.
Using your top profile from above

#

actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,value=!rtb_buffs.will_lose.skull_and_crossbones&(rtb_buffs.will_lose-rtb_buffs.will_lose.grand_melee)<2+buff.loaded_dice.up

#

Seems about the same for DS, but for ST it's probably better.

#

DS sims care a bit less about pure SnC rolls than ST

#

(I assume because this profile has Ambi)

#

But also rerolling during AoE has increased opportunity cost because each global does more damage, so that also factors in a bit as well. Could be where a pandemic rule or ignore reroll rule could make sense at N targets

#

(Although likely the bigger impact is wave length/fight duration segments)

#

This is probably why more restrictive rules will show up higher on DS sims, because the real thing it prefers is just less rerolling in general if the duration will be wasted (due to downtime, remaining wave duration)

#

Can see this even with the SnC rule in ST (which, on average, is clearly better) by setting a 20 or 40s fight duration, and it's always a loss even though we know the rule is better

#

The buff DPS advantage still has to recoup the global cost over time which is something we may just need to approximate

potent ferry
#

One thing I haven't figured out yet is why 2pt cto is better in ST compared to gsw+hh (still aoe builds). I don't see why it does more in st but not in aoe. Maybe some cto specific lines are bad for aoe. I'll dig into the damage profiles at some point to find out

potent ferry
#

Can you see debuff uptime somehow in the sim report?

#

I think cto might let bte debuff drop sometimes

#

Also, cto presses br a little less

knotty oriole
#

At the bottom

potent ferry
#

Top debuff of each type corresponds to first profile and so on I assume?

potent ferry
#

I don't get it, 2pt cto seems to be doing more flurryable damage but still does less blade flurry damage. I'll try looking at pure sustained aoe. Maybe there is something I think flurries the actually doesn't

#

2pt cto compared to gsw+hh mainly moves damage from pistol shot to ambush and dispatch

#

Not sure why that would mean less flurry damage

#

Also more auto attack damage and main gauche

#

Does hidden opportunity not flurry for example?

finite sparrow
#

Every rogue attack flurries except the specific interactions for Blade Rush and Killing Spree that is not technically flurry damage

potent ferry
#

I need excel for this

#

Maybe there is a simc bug

#

Maybe just blade flurry uptime

#

0.18% lower uptime in pure aoe for the cto build. Maybe that does it

#

Or one of the rtb buffs increases damage in a way that only affects ST somehow

#

Broadside would be the most likely candidate maybe

finite sparrow
#

sorry, are you wondering why CTO might have less value in cleave?

potent ferry
#

Kind of yeah. I'm comparing the normal dance ho build with a dance ho build with 2pt cto

#

2pt cto is stronger in ST and seems to do more flurryable damage, but still somehow did y less blade flurry damage

finite sparrow
#

could be the mere fact of having to press BF, occasionally during Dance or Subterfuge, takes away from average CTO procs

#

BF is also a cheap global that perhaps slightly devalues the impact of Buried Treasure

#

The extra True Bearing uptime could contribute to more Blade Rush casts which is not flurry damage

potent ferry
#

The cto profile actually casts br less than the normal profile

#

I must be missing something because the normal profile also has higher prio target damage

potent ferry
#

I just failed at basic math, cto build did 600 less flurryable damage

potent ferry
#

as to why it does more damage in single target I'm still not sure

finite sparrow
knotty oriole
potent ferry
# knotty oriole

I'm confused about this reroll condition. When i try it it's a clear loss compared to baseline. Do you have a link to this run?

knotty oriole
#

Don’t have a link handy on my phone but haven’t really seen a build where it isn’t positive or neutral for HO.

potent ferry
#

Yeah but baseline was a ho build

#

Was about 0.6% loss in both st and ds

#

I just copied the condition you linked. I can make a run with that part isolated, sec

#

Maybe it didn't play nicely with some of the other changes i made

#

There is a bunch of other changes in the top profile. They are annotated now at least. Some of them are not well tested yet

potent ferry
#

Running snc fishing in st and something more restrictive in aoe seems to work well

potent ferry
#

So when we have spare gcds out of range for example we can probably be extra greedy and reroll for SnC

hasty parrot
#

or that is the current apl

potent ferry
#

There is quite a few

#

The baseline ones are current apl

finite sparrow
#

i have to say combining 30 million profiles and changes makes this look about as unapproachable as possible

potent ferry
#

I know. It's mainly because I'm working on my phone

#

The changes are commented at least

#

The main changes are reroll condition though. The rest are minor things. A higher prio br line for aoe, not rerolling in subterfuge, no br in subterfuge and finish early if ambush is possible next gcd

knotty oriole
knotty oriole
#

So it's most likely reroll rules in order to be optimal for DS just need to be slightly forward-looking and consider current max enemy TTD and if there is a downtime gap between waves.

potent ferry
#

yes, but just checking for number of targets works pretty well, if there are 0 targets you have more leeway

#

I did it like this now

actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll_aoe,value=!rtb_buffs.will_lose.skull_and_crossbones&!rtb_buffs.will_lose.broadside&(rtb_buffs.will_lose-rtb_buffs.will_lose.grand_melee<2)&(rtb_buffs.will_lose<2+buff.loaded_dice.up-buff.shadow_dance.up-buff.subterfuge.up)```
#

and
actions.cds+=/roll_the_bones,if=buff.dreadblades.down&buff.subterfuge.down&(rtb_buffs.will_lose=0|variable.rtb_reroll&spell_targets.blade_flurry<2|variable.rtb_reroll_aoe|variable.rtb_reroll_kir_cto)

#

oh, mistake there I see, subterfuge check should be removed from last line

knotty oriole
#

Last I looked that reroll condition was fine in sustained multi target though. Maybe something changed. It seemed mostly just a DS refresh timing issue.

#

I can take a look at that later

#

Sometimes it isn’t really worth 200 IQ optimizing for small losses in DS that are only timing based though. Typically only care about it if it is significant and changes things meaningfully.

potent ferry
#

I'll try a bit more with separate conditions for st and aoe to see if there is a significant gain to be had. Then I'll try to find a compromise

potent ferry
#

Umm, something changed in simc nightly. Baseline shifted up to 119k dps in ds

#

Looks like maybe wft was enabled by default for ds

finite sparrow
#

it was

#

wft and mark of the wild

knotty oriole
#

I'm not totally sure why, the change in SimC itself was to set optimal_raid = 0 and disable most everything not enable anything. Unless raidbots is overriding it.

#

Should actually be lower since Battle Shout was intended to be disabled

#

Probably just raidbots applying the user defaults and since they aren't explicitly disabled it gets turned on

potent ferry
#

Is it possible to force the sim to cast something in the gaps between packs in ds? Trying to make it reroll or blade flurry before the adds are actually up, but it doesn't seem to want to do anything until the adds are up

wary talon
#

Wasn't sure since its more of a theoretical question or if it should be posted in outlaw disc but is there any world where single roll SnC is worth keeping even if you have loaded dice? Feels really bad rolling away borderline guaranteed procs for 30s for a chance at two good double buffs or it pretty certain with the sims that have been done? SnC just feels so much better to have than any of the other buffs its just not even close but didn't know if thats more feelycracft or not

For HO build specifically the standard one with subterfuge no extra util or anything like that

potent ferry
#

Recent testing indicates that you should never reroll snc if you play ho

#

Scroll up a bit for a nice sim that koji did for value of different rtb buffs

#

Single snc beats all combos of two buffs that doesn't include snc basically

wary talon
#

fuck thats what i was thinking while playing, rerolling off snc felt so wrong, the faq still says otherwise so i kept doing it

finite sparrow
wary talon
#

I didnt mean it in a hyper critical way of the people doing sims, think im just kinda frustrated with the HO build, the build just feels like absolute ass when you dont proc and roll poorly energy starving you. People claiming this doesnt happen semi often are coping hard so anything to lessen any of this rng I'm down with even if its small idk. The damage still seems high even when you roll poorly and dont proc so it all doesnt mean much apparently, guess its the flow of it that isnt fun at all when rng is fucking you.

half karma
#

(its at the top of the action list)

#

there is no other way to do it rn I believe

potent ferry
#

Thanks!

potent ferry
#

I think the precombat apl is just prepull, not in between packs in ds?

half karma
#

yes thats why I had to do that

potent ferry
#

Also, bf doesn't have the precombat_seconds option

half karma
#

since you are always in combat in a slice sim

half karma
potent ferry
#

It has to be manually added to each relevant skill i simc I think

half karma
#

look at "whole precombat apl"

#

sorry I didnt precise

#

all the others profiles are irrelevant to what you are trying to do

potent ferry
#

Ah. Before stealth in the normal apl gotcha

calm mist
#

Where can i ask a question about raidbots if it wont put a gem into a socket when simming

naive glacier
#

One of the spec channels is appropriate

regal agate
#

if it is a bug on the website, best is to ask in their discord.
If you need help with simming, the spec channels or #wow-general

potent ferry
#

Can't get the sim to stealth between packs if it does blade flurry before the adds are up. Maybe it hits the invulnerable target and enters combat

#

rerolling etc works fine though

calm mist
regal agate
potent ferry
#

@half karma combining your work on casting rtb between packs (with some added restrictions), avoiding reroll at the end of packs and new reroll conditions (kojis snc fishing in st and a more restrictive one for aoe) yields pretty good gains. There are a few more improvements in the all_the_stuff profile, but they are not as significant and needs more tuning. I'll continue working on those but I'm mostly done with the reroll logic/timings.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mKTwwenqFUyRqJUds41Th3

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - Ho Dance Baseline - 121,058 DPS - Raidbots
floral kernel
#

@potent ferry do you have a sim/link to the cto ho build you spoke about a few days ago in the channel or what the changes are from the default dslice build is?

potent ferry
#

Just drop gsw for cto

#

But it's still behind, kind of gave up on that

floral kernel
#

how far behind just out of curiousity?

potent ferry
#

Less than 0.5% I think

half karma
#

Sim the same for me in like any scenario last I checked so might just depend on profile

half karma
potent ferry
#

Pretty decent eh

half karma
#

Yeah it's cool

potent ferry
#

The timing stuff is things that most good players already do I'd say

half karma
#

Well unfortunately it won't translate into gains in real game but at least sims are more accurate

potent ferry
#

Didn't include your precombat apl opts

half karma
#

Yeah that don't matter much

#

It was just to clean up the precombat lines

#

But it's insignificant really

potent ferry
#

The timing stuff helps when comparing reroll conditions I think

#

I'll try to isolate the other 0.3% changes to see which ones are most significant

#

I think the main gain is from blade rush optimizations

#

Some from using BF the gcd before adds spawn

#

If in combat that is

#

Couldn't make the sim restealth between packs if I did bf between packs for some reason

half karma
#

I doubt we would bf before a pack anyways

#

That would eat another GCD in stealth

potent ferry
#

Its hard to execute in practice

half karma
#

So like 2 sec less on rtb

#

Same for ar if you pre ar

#

And in practice its a bit akward

potent ferry
#

You gain a gcd in subterfuge though

half karma
#

Yeah I mean

potent ferry
#

I think it's net positive but not worth doing because you'll mess it up a lot in practice

#

But you can bf, hook and stealth on the same gcd I think

#

If you are not already in stealth that is

#

I'm not going to pursue that line of investigation more though. I'll focus on cleaning up the other stuff

half karma
#

Well you can even bf stealth

#

If you macro them together

#

Even if bf hit something you would still stealth

#

I think this doesn't work with subterfuge tho for some reason

potent ferry
#

Using AR prepull or between packs if you still reroll for loaded dice didn't seem to be a gain btw

#

I guess you don't get enough extra rolls with ld up to make up for the lost uptime on AR

half karma
#

Yeah I know, it's not enough for ho builds, i guess it's just cause of the GCD loss

#

That also why I did the fixed precombat thing, wanted to be sure it wasn't a gain

#

Or a loss i guess

lavish zenith
potent ferry
#

Avoid reroll during the last 8 seconds of a pack is what I settled on. Might need further testing to find the optimal number

#

I also added a condition to make sure that if new adds will come before pack ends we can still reroll

lavish zenith
#

ok. also were there any changes to br logic btw with the br proccing mg thing? i know solo had mentioned that it could (?) be worth to br on cd on 6+ targets? that still the case? not sure if it got posted or not missed a lot of things with the race and all

potent ferry
#

Yes I made a new line for br and increased the prio a bit. It's around 0.3% increase

lavish zenith
#

ok. is it 6 then? or 5 or 7?

#

also does the apl slam it pre dance then in opener i assume?

potent ferry
#

It's a bit more complicated, maybe too complicated to keep in the apl or have in a guide

#

I basically tweak the energy condition based on the number of targets (and increase the condition if in dance/subterfuge)

#

Normal energy condition for br is time to max energy>4. I did 4-spell_targets/3

lavish zenith
#

ahh ic. and then i would guess that time to max energy decreases as target count increases?

potent ferry
#

Exactly, by one second per 3 targets

lavish zenith
#

interesting. lol would make a nice maths question on an exam for an optimization problem

potent ferry
#

I think either make a wa for it, or approximate it somehow

lavish zenith
#

ok so it's
4 - 3
3 - 6
2 (baaaasically on cd) - 9
1 (on cd) - 12

potent ferry
#

Just slamming at somewhere around 5-7+ targets isn't that far behind though

lavish zenith
#

yeah probably the play but i'll see if there's some kind of predictive wa that can be made. have my hackerman army go to work lol

potent ferry
#

In sd/subterfuge you still want to press it if you are completely stalling on energy, even in st

lavish zenith
#

i used to have that on ele sham that would tell me if my next chain lightning would give me sufficient maelstrom to be able to earthshock/earthquake depending on # of targets in combat in a certain radius around my target iirc so something can probably be cooked up

potent ferry
#

I don't think it will be too hard to make a wa that approximates this. Maybe translate the time to max energy to simple energy thresholds, or try to actually calculate the energy recovery rate. Both should work

#

But it's a fair amount of work for all of 0.3% dps

#

Kind of free dps once you have the wa though I guess

potent ferry
regal agate
#

nice, thats quite a noticeable change. Does it hold up with other builds too?

potent ferry
#

Haven't tested it much with KIR yet. It works with ho dance cto and ho tea br builds at least

#

Might need other reroll conditions for kir

#

Note that the bulk of the increase comes from trying to press rtb in gaps between packs rather than during packs. Which many players already do. The impact is probably much lower in ST and in sustained aoe

regal agate
#

makes sense

#

thanks for investing time into it

potent ferry
#

I'm on a ski trip without pc access, lots of time to kill

half karma
#

Doing apl stuff on phone despairge

potent ferry
#

Yes, it's painful..

#

Kojis snc fishing reroll condition carrying the st gain

potent ferry
#

All the changes are positive for kir as well except the new reroll conditions

#

Or well, positive or neutral

knotty oriole
#

For the time being anyway

potent ferry
#

The aoe specific one I made should probably also be HO specific

knotty oriole
#

My current working version before I took some days off for the holidays was just splitting them

actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,if=!talent.hidden_opportunity,value=rtb_buffs<2&(!buff.broadside.up&(!talent.fan_the_hammer|!buff.skull_and_crossbones.up)&!buff.true_bearing.up|buff.loaded_dice.up)|rtb_buffs=2&(buff.buried_treasure.up&buff.grand_melee.up|!buff.broadside.up&!buff.true_bearing.up&buff.loaded_dice.up)
actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,if=talent.hidden_opportunity,value=!rtb_buffs.will_lose.skull_and_crossbones&(rtb_buffs.will_lose-rtb_buffs.will_lose.grand_melee)<2+buff.loaded_dice.up

potent ferry
#

Basically old reroll condition unless HO?

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I mean until we find something better seems like the most straightforward way to do it

#

I didn't have a ton of luck improving KiR stuff but there's a lot more going on there

potent ferry
#

Yeah I haven't even tried yet

#

You were correct on that improving timings for rtb could improve things a lot for ds too

knotty oriole
#

Anyway thanks for breaking it all down above. I'll probably get back to sim stuff tonight and see if I can start testing/integrating part of this. I know know if we need all of the faux-precombat stuff in there at this point or not really.

#

I don't know if the MfD line will actually work because there's no target to cast it on, for example

#

In sims anyway

#

Only works in precombat because the main target isn't invulnerable yet

potent ferry
#

I guess the fake precombat stuff helps a bit in correctness of talent comparisons for ds

#

But most players already do roughly what my apl does I think. Avoid reroll at end of packs, be a bit more aggressive with rerolls in between

knotty oriole
#

Yeah most likely

#

raid_event.adds.remains>8|raid_event.adds.in<8&raid_event.adds.in<raid_event.adds.remains|target.time_to_die>8
Is there an advantage to not just having the second conditional be "raid_event.adds.in<8" without the overlap check?

#

e.g. I assume if the current add remains is 5s and the next add wave is in 7s that would be fine to reroll too

potent ferry
#

We can freely reroll if there is no gap between the packs is my thinking

#

Hmm, maybe something is redundant there

#

Maybe it was for the gaps

#

If there is a gap you don't want to reroll last few seconds of the ongoing pull

#

If the gap is less than 8 seconds

#

If there is a gap you want to do the rtb the gcd before the new pack

knotty oriole
#

I can mess with it a little bit when integrating. I'll do some tests

potent ferry
#

Kir misses out on most of the improvements. It's mostly the timing stuff that helps kir since it can't use the new reroll conditions and doesn't use BR

knotty oriole
#

The Blade Rush target condition kinda got to my test results at a different way

#

Maybe a relaxed energy condition (time to max at 2s) starts being like 0.2% better at 6-7T

potent ferry
#

I had separate AOE br condition first

knotty oriole
#

I guess it depends on what ends up being easier

potent ferry
#

Time to max 2 seconds and +5 targets or something performs nearly as well

knotty oriole
#

The thing about this though is that it's slight moving target

#

Since Mastery affects this threshold

potent ferry
#

Yeah that too

knotty oriole
#

e.g. something I was testing was if Puzzle Box uptime changed these rules and while it's not mind-blowing it definitely changes things a bit

potent ferry
#

But it's also a gain to allow br in dance with stricter energy condition

knotty oriole
#

e.g. to use a bit of an example

potent ferry
#

So i tried to combine it all into one condition. Also removed the time to die part I think

knotty oriole
#

I did some testing with 5800 Mastery and in that case it was worth using Blade Flurry (for the instant attack) on 8T on cooldown regardless of BF duration

#

Same for Blade Rush

potent ferry
#

Yeah not easy to make an apl that can account for that

knotty oriole
#

Well

#

I think in this case we may just want a Puzzle Box condition. But this is a lower prio I guess compared to the other changes

potent ferry
#

Yep

knotty oriole
#

It's probably the only way to get to meaningful Mastery levels atm that would be realistic

#

So just something that checks for the Puzzle Box buff would probably be fine

#

|buff.puzzle_box.up or whatever

potent ferry
#

Maybe tea interaction as well

knotty oriole
#

idk if it's a large enough buff to bias it

#

But could look

#

Solo also mentioned Blade Flurry clipping should be added back in

#

For

actions.cds=blade_flurry,if=spell_targets>=2&buff.blade_flurry.remains<gcd

#

Which I think was another 0.3% or so in DS

potent ferry
#

Nice

potent ferry
#

Hmm, there is something with the fake precombat apl that doesn't work right. Found cases were it didn't roll even without rtb being up at all. I'll see if I can nail it down

knotty oriole
potent ferry
#

That's a possibility

#

But unlikely that the container buff runs out and rtb is still on cd

potent ferry
#

Ps from stealth with max stacks probably needs conditions like subterfuge talent and maybe no cto

knotty oriole
#

e.g.

actions.cds+=/blade_flurry,if=(spell_targets>=2|raid_event.adds.in<=2)&!buff.blade_flurry.up
Was negative on HAC so I suspect the add wave count impacts the results here.

#

Maybe only a gain for certain target thresholds

potent ferry
#

That one is sketchy indeed

knotty oriole
#

Another thing is I still wasn't really feeling the configuration of the reroll variables

potent ferry
#

Probably not worth integrating, it's negative in the sim i just linked and has been only slightly positive at best

knotty oriole
#

So I experimented with restructuring and had some pretty good results

#

Mostly I think the AoE rules were still only really a gain due to timing, because they were a loss on sustained 2T/3T/etc.

#

It wasn't worth avoiding rerolling on sustained counts until like 5+

#

So I integrated the timing rules into the reroll conditions themselves and I think it worked out a bit better

potent ferry
#

Interesting

knotty oriole
#

Performance seems to be comparable to yours and sometimes a little higher for some builds

#

It was also a small gain for KiR setups

#

Still working on cleaning it up literally right now so apologies if this doesn't play nice but something like this

# 
# Roll the Bones Reroll Conditions
actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,if=!talent.hidden_opportunity,value=rtb_buffs<2&(!buff.broadside.up&(!talent.fan_the_hammer|!buff.skull_and_crossbones.up)&!buff.true_bearing.up|buff.loaded_dice.up)|rtb_buffs=2&(buff.buried_treasure.up&buff.grand_melee.up|!buff.broadside.up&!buff.true_bearing.up&buff.loaded_dice.up)
actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,if=!talent.hidden_opportunity&(talent.keep_it_rolling|talent.count_the_odds),value=variable.rtb_reroll|((rtb_buffs.normal=0&rtb_buffs.longer>=1)&!(buff.broadside.up&buff.true_bearing.up&buff.skull_and_crossbones.up)&!(buff.broadside.remains>39|buff.true_bearing.remains>39|buff.ruthless_precision.remains>39|buff.skull_and_crossbones.remains>39))
actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,if=talent.hidden_opportunity,value=!rtb_buffs.will_lose.skull_and_crossbones&(rtb_buffs.will_lose-rtb_buffs.will_lose.grand_melee)<2+buff.loaded_dice.up
actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,op=reset,if=!(raid_event.adds.remains>12|raid_event.adds.up&(raid_event.adds.in-raid_event.adds.remains)<6|target.time_to_die>12)|fight_remains<12
#

I'll add some comments shortly but basically just merged in the KiR line into a single variable to clean things up

#

Added the HO specific line

#

And then added a generic "no reroll" condition that was a variant on the TTD checks you had put in previously

#

The 12s threshold seemed a bit better testing on things like 20s/40s ST sims as well

potent ferry
#

Yeah, looks good. And probably nice to have it all in one place

knotty oriole
#

(Which are dumb, but actually kinda useful for this particular test lol)

#

Yeah I think this makes it a little easier to keep track of what is going on

potent ferry
#

Already pretty hard to follow the apl sometimes

knotty oriole
#

I changed the setup of the Blade Rush line slightly just for readability but your changes seemed good there

#

actions.cds+=/blade_rush,if=variable.blade_flurry_sync&!buff.dreadblades.up&(energy.base_time_to_max>4+stealthed.rogue-spell_targets%3)

#

Since Stealthed.Rogue includes both Subterfuge and Shadow Dance seemed a little easier this way

#

Was neutral in all my tests anyhow

#

Re-positioning and logic seems good

potent ferry
#

Wanted br to go off before stealth cds

knotty oriole
#

Yeah moving it up seemed solid

potent ferry
#

And then I felt I had to move AR as well

knotty oriole
#

AR moving also seemed good

#

Gonna hold on the fake precombat stuff for now

#

Since I'm still having some discussions about potentially trying to fix the core SimC bug

potent ferry
#

I haven't tested but it's probably nice to do br before dance

knotty oriole
#

Also nightly I fixed the issue that was causing DungeonSlice to get raid buffs so that may impact your testing somewhat

potent ferry
knotty oriole
#

SimC isn't running call_action_list or run_action_list with no targets due to an arcane bug that's existed forever and nobody noticed

potent ferry
#

Ah that's what it was

knotty oriole
#

Technically it's an easy fix

potent ferry
#

Good find

knotty oriole
#

But may have funny side-effects so want to chat with the other devs first

potent ferry
#

Noticed that doing bf without a valid target stopped the apl from executing at all until a valid target comes up

knotty oriole
#

I know the out of combat stuff is noticeable so hopefully can get that in soon

potent ferry
#

I'll take a look later, have to focus on something else for a while

knotty oriole
#

For DS it's about halfway there, obviously missing the out of combat stuff so that's part of it and may still need some more reroll tweaks

#

But does work a fair bit better in HAC. In ST it should be roughly the same.

#

For KiR the DS gains are about the same right now since even though it's missing the out of combat stuff it gained a bit from merging the TTD rules

knotty oriole
potent ferry
#

I'll be back at it later today, just need to do some actual skiing on this ski trip as well

knotty oriole
#

haha better skiing than simming 😄

potent ferry
#

actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,op=reset,if=!(raid_event.adds.remains>12|raid_event.adds.up&(raid_event.adds.in-raid_event.adds.remains)<6|target.time_to_die>12)|fight_remains<12
I'm not sure about this overlap condition. It will reroll at the end of the pack even if there will be a gap where we could reroll for "free". Are those few extra potential seconds of rtb uptime really worth it?
raid_event.adds.in-raid_event.adds.remains<0, makes more sense in my head. It will probably only show as a gain together with the fake precombat stuff though

potent ferry
#

I rebased my remaining stuff on top of your integrated stuff, but it didn't quite add up. Found some issues with the timing changes you pushed. Main thing is this line:
actions.cds+=/roll_the_bones,if=buff.dreadblades.down&(rtb_buffs.total=0|variable.rtb_reroll)
The rtb_buffs.total thing ruins your reset of the rtb_reroll variable

#

Also think this version of the reset is more correct and easier to read
actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,op=reset,if=raid_event.adds.remains<12&(!raid_event.adds.in<12|raid_event.adds.in>raid_event.adds.remains)&target.time_to_die<12|fight_remains<12

knotty oriole
#

The DPS delta is gonna be quite a bit different for buff down cases

potent ferry
#

For ds changing those two things has a pretty big impact

knotty oriole
#

Think you would want different timing thresholds to check for raw rolls

#

The DPS delta is gonna be at least double in most of those cases

potent ferry
#

The reroll condition already covers raw rolls mostly

#

Maybe different reset condition though?

#

Don't reroll last 12, don't roll last 6 or something

knotty oriole
#

Quite possible there is a check that would make sense yeah just mentioning that it’s kinda intentional I only put it on the reroll case currently since that’s the only one I specifically tested.

potent ferry
#

Anyway, by changing those lines and readding my aoe specific reroll condition for ho on target count above 4 i can match the old all the stuff apl

#

Or well, the prepack roll stuff too

#

I think it's often nice to hold rtb for next pack, you sacrifice some uptime at the end of one pack, but you reroll the gcd before next which is probably worth a lot

knotty oriole
#

Hard to say without the prepull stuff

#

Will mess with that at some point this week

potent ferry
#

I'll send a link soon with my rebased stuff

#

Stuck in vault sim queue though. I should really just pay for raidbots premium with the amount I use their service

knotty oriole
#

But you could be right with that stuff in there that checking for no gap between waves would make sense. But without the prepull stuff this was like 0.2% better to allow small gaps.

#

But that makes sense to me until that is added.

potent ferry
#

Yeah, it makes sense that allowing small gaps is better if the sim never rerolls between packs

#

Renabled all the buffs. Not really sure what buffs we should sim ds with now. Everything is a bit unrealistic but so is nothing

#

Didn't seem to affect the relative increases anyway

knotty oriole
#

I mean I think no buffs is probably more applicable in most cases than otherwise since at best you'll get like 1 per key but probably the average case is maybe Battle Shout since Prot Warrior is so common as a tank atm

#

WFT is definitely rather uncommon right now for me anyway in keys

potent ferry
#

Wft should be disabled for sure

#

Battle shout, motw, bloodlust is reasonable to have enabled probably

finite sparrow
#

Lord forbid we get a rotation change that depends on what party buffs you do or dont have

potent ferry
#

Let's avoid exploring that hehe

knotty oriole
#

lol

#

WFT is the most likely to do that I assume since it changes actual ability usage

hearty olive
#

@potent ferry been reading your stuff this last week. Dope stuff salute thanks for improving our dps

potent ferry
#

I can't take credit for all of those improvements. Zac did a lot of the work on the between packs stuff and koji did most of the work on the reroll logic.

knotty oriole
muted sorrel
#

Unless I’m blind, are there any energy conditions surrounding vanish with subterfuge? Bc at some energy levels, it is obvious that you cannot fit all ambushes you can within window and may have to br instead for example.

knotty oriole
#

Have experimented with adding them in the past without any notable improvement

potent ferry
#

There is ambush condition for vanish

#

It includes energy>50 iirc

potent ferry
#

Maybe we should pool energy before vanish

#

Right now it looks like if we are low on energy we'll just skip vanish, but if sd is not on cd we'll probably hit that instead

half karma
#

no there is a condition to not use dance when vanish is off cd

potent ferry
#

Right

half karma
#

I tried playing a bit with pooling conditions but could never get something to work

#

even got small losses in some situations

potent ferry
#

So we ummm ss or something instead

half karma
#

yeah its a bit strange, but I also dont think this happen a lot

potent ferry
#

We pool energy for ambush for less than 3 sec during a ds

#

So we are not low on energy very often

#

Maybe some rule to encourage BR before vanish with subterfuge and dance would make sense

half karma
#

yep altough moving the br line up already helped with that

potent ferry
#

That would mostly be to avoid having to waste dance/subt gcds though

#

Kind of tricky to make a good condition for that I think

#

Vanish/sd rules are pretty complex

#

Don't want to duplicate them for br

#

Maybe hold vanish/sd if br cd < x and energy<y

half karma
#

not convinced by this tho, dance and vanish rules are already very strict idk If we can afford them being even more restricted

potent ferry
#

Can try to add pooling for vanish I guess

merry pike
#

would the new blade rush logic (blade rushing at low energy in dance) also be beneficial as space to roll the bones if possible in low energy in dance when blade rush is down. Currently the faqs state not to reroll at all in dance/sub

potent ferry
#

Apl does reroll in dance/sub atm

#

But it seems to be a gain to avoid doing that in aoe. The low energy idea is nice though

#

Not just in dance/subt

#

Since we pool for energy for a total of 3 ish seconds during a ds. Might as well use those for rerolls somehow

#

Need some condition that stops rerolls when we have energy though so we have something to loosen when we run out

knotty oriole
#

Still might be something that is possible but hard to say

#

Like we generally don't run out of energy except if we get bad proc RNG after the fact so it's hard to really predict that

#

As long as we are getting Opportunity procs we won't run out of Energy unless we just get mega unlucky with Fatal Flouish

potent ferry
#

Yes I haven't had much luck either

knotty oriole
#

And the real problem is just standing around waiting is very inefficient since we don't gain a lot of energy just from standing AAing

#

So much of our energy gen is just feedback loop activity-based

#

But I assume this is why you moving Blade Rush above the Stealth CDs showed some positive improvement

#

It probably is injecting in cases that normally would be low Energy Stealths

potent ferry
#

I'll try removing the energy condition from ambush condition instead

potent ferry
#

But also to avoid using br in subt or dance

ruby agate
#

I feel like dslice pulls aren't long enough to see serious energy starvation downtime in the sims; you need to be unlucky for it to happen, but once it happens, undoing it can be rough without just... awkwardly waiting. Since once you're starved, you stop efficiently reducing AR CD and are basically waiting for procs or BR to save you. At least this week in m+, I've had chain pulls that were multiple minutes long, and without that out of combat reset for energy gain, it can get rough if you roll bad buffs repeatedly. Like, when you're proc bouncing with AR up, you're usually great, but the moment you deplete that energy bar with only grand melee up, you're just stuck for a bit

knotty oriole
#

I mean if it was about length it would happen in ST sims as well

stray bolt
# knotty oriole

Maybe it is a bit late to reply to this. For some reason, BT is somehow strong for HO build as I suggested here: #tc-research message. I did similar "rtb=single buff" sims for HO and that's why I put the BT condition in early tryouts reroll conditions. I've modeled normal and HO output myself. It shows normal (non-HO) build gives a hyperbola of f(x)=B+A/(x+C), while HO build gives a hyperbola of f(x)=B-A/x (where x is time/executing gcds). From HO build's hyperbola of f(x)=B-A/(x+C), its output is increasingly approaching its asymptote along with gcds. Therefore, more energy for this build can promote its damage output considering in practice we dont have endless energy so that each second is an executing gcd.

Discord
Discord - A New Way to Chat with Friends & Communities

Discord is the easiest way to communicate over voice, video, and text. Chat, hang out, and stay close with your friends and communities.

stray bolt
knotty oriole
#

Sadly I don't remember, I ran a bunch of these. I think it was the non-ST build though. So BR.

#

BT is going to be better at lower gear levels as well

#

Even with the same build it's much worse on the T29 profile than my gear from last week for example

potent ferry
#

Hmm, how often is the apl called? Got significantly better results on the pre pull rtb stuff with raid_events.adds.in<=1.5 compared to raid_events.adds.in<=1

stray bolt
knotty oriole
#

In this case we're talking prepull stuff which means no active targets

#

The polling interval may be reduced in this case

potent ferry
#

Yeah looks like it is

knotty oriole
#

I'd need to look specifically at the code for polling scheduling when no targets are active

#

Let me get back to you 😄

potent ferry
#

I was hunting for the issue that made us miss to roll just before pull sometimes that I've seen in sample sequences

#

Changing those prepull timings to be a bit more loose fixed it and gave around 0.2%

#

Might also impact the ideal timers for avoiding rtb at the end of a pull

#

Regarding BT, it does show up pretty high on HO ST, but I think it was a bit lower in sustained aoe. Let me check

#

I didn't bother disabling ld for the outlaw profile like Koji usually does though

#

There are three combos of 2 buffs that are really bad, and RP is a bit stronger than in ST iirc

#

Keeping single RP is around where the threshold seemed to be

knotty oriole
#

Ready trigger looking at it when no targets around would depend almost completely on relevant events happening

#

e.g. energy/buffs dropping/etc.

#

Could sometimes probably be as much as 0.8s or so looking at some logs

#

Also I don't totally know how Blade Flurry handles having no target

#

I'd need to debug that more as well

potent ferry
#

Maybe make the restealth allowed variable visible to the apl instead

knotty oriole
#

How do you mean? Or what specifically are you referring to?

potent ferry
#

There is some variable in sc_rogue that is checked to see if you can restealth

knotty oriole
#

I think more to the point, Blade Flurry needs to have some modal functionality for when there are no targets

potent ferry
#

Can't access it from the apl, but could use that instead of bf targets =0

#

Or just make sure bf really ignores invuln targets completely, but it seems to do that already

knotty oriole
#

It does but probably messes with the stealth state

potent ferry
#

Yeah, i could not get the sim to restealth after bf on no targets

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I'm sure I know why that is, just may be a little tricky to fix it

potent ferry
#

Not sure it will be a gain to pre bf anyway, but I want to try

#

I did some work to avoid aoe specific reroll condition btw

#

Instead I added an aoe specific reset condition with some extra stuff like pandemic check

#

It's pretty close in performance

#

Something like
actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,op=reset,if=spell_targets.blade_flurry>=4&(raid_event.adds.remains<15&(!raid_event.adds.in<15|raid_event.adds.in>raid_event.adds.remains)&target.time_to_die<15|fight_remains<15|(buff.roll_the_bones.remains>10|buff.loaded_dice.down&cooldown.adrenaline_rush.remains<15)||energy>=50&(buff.subterfuge.up|buff.shadow_dance.up))

#

Can probably be simplified further

#

I'm not sure how I can check true pandemic here, not sure refreshable works when there is no spell associated. But maybe it does if the variable is only used in conditions for rtb

knotty oriole
#

Technically refreshable is only for dots, the SnD support is a custom expression on the SnD action I put in

potent ferry
#

Aha

#

Then i shouldn't use it at all for rtb

knotty oriole
#

I don't think it would do anything no

potent ferry
#

I'm gonna spend some more time on this to make sure all those conditions are really relevant

knotty oriole
#

You'd just have to hard-code like buff.roll_the_bones.up&buff.roll_the_bones.remains<10 or w/e

potent ferry
#

Yeah i did that

#

It's the reverse here since it's a reset condition, but still

#

Maybe a bit more if I find a few more tweaks

knotty oriole
#

Not going to check this in until tomorrow since it's rather late but think I got that working at least

potent ferry
#

Cool!

potent ferry
flat nova
#

do we know if the spiteful storm trinket is viable now with the buffs?

finite sparrow
flat nova
#

okay ty solo!

maiden cargo
#

Hey, was reading simc apl for assasination and wondering what is pmultiplier and how is it calculated ?

regal agate
#

it is used to see if a bleed is empowered

maiden cargo
#

oh

regal agate
#

like e.g. the 50% empowerment on garrote

#

so if you see a line with dot.garrote.pmultiplier<=1, it just checks if it is a regular rupture/garrote

maiden cargo
#

thanks a lot, now I am checking what can cause empowerment
breaking stealth with Improved Garrote, Master Assassin, Septic Wounds
, Elaborate Planning, Zoldyck Recipe,
May be in some extent scent of blood bc it increass agility

noble pendant
#

Exsanguinate is handled in a different case

maiden cargo
noble pendant
#

Ah true! Maybe it does handle exsang as well then

#

The other things you mentioned don’t actually apply to the bleeds themselves cause they don’t snapshot, so those for sure don’t work

maiden cargo
#

thx

mystic jolt
noble pendant
knotty oriole
#

Technically SimC code supports pmultipliers on all the DoTs so there's not a major harm in leaving it in there I don't think

noble pendant
#

yeh I try to avoid thinking about nightstalker as much as possible

#

didn't even consider it

knotty oriole
#

Always possible some Rupture pmultiplier reappears someday. I kinda hope it does because I like the mechanic but probably not. 😛

proven sparrow
#

Isnt it used for finality for sub?

#

Or atleast could be

knotty oriole
#

Yes Sub does still have it

#

That's why core support would not really be removed

regal agate
potent ferry
#

Can't quite make it significantly positive

Screenshot_2023-01-06-08-58-14-11_3aea4af51f236e4932235fdada7d1643.jpg
#

There is probably some interaction I'm missing that could make it positive, maybe something with tier set

#

Had to change to call_action_list instead of run_action_list and add pooling for dispatch to reach neutral

#

I guess we slipped through to pistol shot with low energy without the pooling

maiden cargo
#

New question will_lose_exsanguinate its purpose is to check if we will replace a dot empowered by exsanguinate ?

vital nymph
#

I realize this is just a single sample from the Sims but how often does the sim use Vanish during a Shadow dance window?

image.png
regal agate
#

it is a optimization, ill explain it in the #subtlety channel for you

noble pendant
patent badge
#

I was doing some testing earlier when I noticed that the 50% damage buff from attacking from stealth isn't applying. Left wihtout stealth right with it. I got a diffrence of about ~30 damage on average, which seems low considering one was supposed to have the 50% dmg buff 🤔

All tests were done without gear (except for unenchanted weapons) and damage buffs

1673289183776.png
finite sparrow
#

Yeah that tooltip is fake

#

Nightstalker is 8% now if talented, but the 8% also does nothing because bugged

patent badge
#

Really? I'm new to Rogue this expansion 😅 is this a well known fact among veteran Rogue players?

finite sparrow
#

it's just a random thing no big deal

grave wharf
#

just never trust tooltips

regal agate
hasty parrot
#

Does anybody know if in the APL for SnD here actions.finish+=/slice_and_dice,if=buff.slice_and_dice.remains<fight_remains&refreshable&(!talent.swift_slasher|combo_points>=cp_max_spend) there is a way to add condition that it check if our SnD is already around 1 min duration and it skips recasting it?

#

Isnt recasting it when we already have long SnD a wasted GCD?

#

Perhaps the refreshable variable can be changed to static times, say 60sec? Would that be possible?

half karma
#

refreshable means under pandemic

#

(I think)

hasty parrot
#

Sorry what does "under pandemic" means?

half karma
#

!pd

plush slateBOT
#

Pandemic takes up to 30% of the duration of a applied dot/buff and adds it to your new applied one. The duration depends on the new instance.
Example: Garrote (18 sec) can be extended by up to 5.4 seconds from an existing instance.
Note: Pandemic applies to most but not all debuffs/buffs

hasty parrot
#

Oh I see

#

I was thinking something like that:

half karma
#

well thats exactly what refreshable does tho

#

idk the exact pandemic timer for snd

#

but it will refresh under it

#

you also cant even cast snd if its over 1 min or something

naive glacier
#

I believe it already accounts for this and if you look at a sample actions list, it only refreshed pandemic range and if the fight length is greater than remaining time

hasty parrot
#

unless thats weakaura bug

hearty olive
#

i think you can if it's 55 or something though i'm not sure

hasty parrot
#

Oh I see my bad, sorry my english sometimes I missunderstand

hearty olive
#

i think it lets you cast it though cause pandemic + 7 points ?

#

just hitting a dummy at 52s it lets me cast it at 7CP

hasty parrot
#

Yeah I just went to test as well, can confirm

#

That's fine then, I was under the impression we always cast SnD under the current APL conditions but it only does it if it hits 52sec or less

#

Rest of the time it just gets increased by the passive automatically

half karma
#

no, refreshable means it will only cast under pandemic timer

#

52s would be when you can actually press it

#

but you would waste a lot doing that

hasty parrot
#

I see! Is there a way to find the pandemic timer for SnD somewhere?

half karma
#

we just press under pandemic which is 52s * 0.3 = 15.6 seconds

#

30% of whats on the tooltip

#

so if you cast it at 7 cp pandemic will be 30% of 52s?

#

(idk if 52s is the exact number)

hasty parrot
#

Yes that makes sense, thank you

hearty olive
#

on the tooltip

tight charm
#

anyone have an idea of how to alter apl to only ST at max combo points during SD, but leave existing finisher logic in APL (deficit<=2 when talented in stratagem, cold blood)

#

this is what I went with

#

actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&(buff.danse_macabre.stack>=3|!talent.danse_macabre)&(!talent.cold_blood|cooldown.cold_blood.remains>buff.shadow_dance.remains-2)&combo_points.deficit=0

regal agate
#

that should work

#

but probably won't get you to what you want to do

#

the change (this)

- actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&(buff.danse_macabre.stack>=3|!talent.danse_macabre)
+ actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&(buff.danse_macabre.stack>=3|!talent.danse_macabre)&combo_points.deficit<=0```will only use Secret on 7 cp (with the default build)
#

but i assume your idea is to use another builder instead of a finisher if secret is up and you end up on 5 or 6 combo points

tight charm
#

correct. and for more optimization, gloomblade specifically with 5

regal agate
#

you can re-use part of the logic of the secret condition to achive this

#

Gb should be used on 5

#

If you look at the Gloomblade condition(s):yaml actions.stealthed+=/variable,name=gloomblade_condition,value=buff.danse_macabre.stack<5&(combo_points.deficit=2|combo_points.deficit=3)&(buff.premeditation.up|effective_combo_points<7)&(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=8|talent.lingering_shadow) actions.stealthed+=/shuriken_storm,if=variable.gloomblade_condition&buff.silent_storm.up&!debuff.find_weakness.remains&talent.improved_shuriken_storm.enabled actions.stealthed+=/gloomblade,if=variable.gloomblade_condition actions.stealthed+=/backstab,if=variable.gloomblade_condition&talent.danse_macabre&buff.danse_macabre.stack<=2&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=2

#

combo_points.deficit=2 means 5 combo points with deeper dagger talented

tight charm
#

yeah, that should evaluate true

regal agate
#

buff.danse_macabre.stack<5 shoult usually not lead to a issue

#

given that you:
Shadow dance (1)
Gloomblade(2)
eviscerate(3)
Shadowstrike(4)
--- Still end up below 5 stacks here

#

even when the sim uses storm first you end up on 4 stacks, what would make this trigger

tight charm
#

so, i'm seeing a very marginal increase in DPS running deficit<=1 on ST, basically ignoring the talent condition for stratagem

#

88,124 with 1 deficit, 88,097 with 2 due to talent condition

regal agate
#

moment

#

maybe what you want to do is simply

#

something like this, ill run a sim in a sec

- actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=1+(talent.seal_fate|talent.deeper_stratagem|talent.secret_stratagem)
+actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=1
+(talent.seal_fate|talent.deeper_stratagem|talent.secret_stratagem&!cooldown.secret_technique.ready)```
tight charm
#

oh, thats much more elegant

regal agate
#

finish on 6+ is
actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=1

tight charm
#

yeah, margin of error here, but it is consistently better on my sims

regal agate
#

the sim was run with 100k iterations, to lower target error

tight charm
#

well, at very least, its enough data for me to stop ST at 5 combo points and only 6+

regal agate
#

what did you change in the line, i assumed the above did represent your change

tight charm
#

yes, I changed what you suggested

regal agate
#

ah perfect

tight charm
#

much more effective in stealth condition

#

and what i mean by that, its where it makes sense

lime canyon
#

so I've found with double on-use, or at least using manic grieftorch or I believe algeth'ar puzzle box (the channeled ones) second, I can't actually use them until roughly 28 seconds after my first trinket instead of 20. However if I do a sim with it as my second on use behind windscar whetstone, it'll use it at 22 seconds which isn't actually possible in game

image.png
cunning quest
lime canyon
knotty oriole
#

yeah this is bugged/undocumented in-game behavior

#

Even the UI is bugged in-game

#

Since it only shows a 20s shared CD and the second trinket will show as usable, but will not actually become usable until 26s.

#

Probably will be added to sims if it stays in the game much longer

#

I've just been personally opening with torch instead of whetstone for that reason though

#

Totally not because I'm hoping someone in my guild dies early

viscid oracle
unique zephyr
real geode
#

Is there a condition to force no stealth? Wanna test worst case no restealths in dslice

vital anchor
#

Just remove the stealth line at the beginning of the APL

image.png
regal agate
#

^ either remove or put a # to comment it out

vital anchor
#

You also have to remove the + and / on the following line (should be kick), otherwise you get errors
actions=kick

finite sparrow
#

you have to edit the APL (action priority list, aka the rotation your sim uses) to stop it from using stealth.

they can be found here (this link is for sub)https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/dragonflight/engine/class_modules/apl/rogue/subtlety_df.simc

remove these lines in the action list:
actions.precombat+=/stealth
and
actions=stealth

change actions+=/kick to actions=kick (it's now the first action in its action list)

now go to raidbots advanced sim and follow this:


copy=remove stealth

# paste entire edited APL here```
example result: <https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gjYhsB1cMjyqBvKJ5wzTNf>
real geode
#

tyvm

midnight moat
#

is it just me oris the sim not accounting that puzzle box has a 2s cast?

image.png
#

Ive been stuck with this trinket for a while now, and just kept it over other things cause sim said it was better but not im not sure as its counting it using 0 gcds instead of 2

knotty oriole
#

It’s not really 2 GCDs in game because you can start it mid GCD and it is hasted. But the sim implementation is not perfect right now in the core.

#

It’s a known issue that is being looked at. But it’s also not super major.

finite sparrow
#

i dont think any APLs play around it so it is undersimming in that regard

midnight moat
#

I hate that its 20 ilvls up on any other trinket Ive gotten this tier

finite sparrow
#

e.g. outlaw might use it prepull, recast outside of adr, maybe blade rush logic changes with it active etc

midnight moat
#

ye I pop in stealth pre pull so I guess it costs no gcds but I love like 2s uptime or I cast it after my adren and lose 2s adren

#

and then cast is when pooling energy

knotty oriole
#

Ideally you will start casting it during GCD which means since it’s hasted basically the result is sims have it like 0.4 or 0.5s too fast. But that isn’t gonna change the results much.

willow knoll
#

Obligatory

FmG-TNiWYAIKVTK.png
midnight moat
#

I wish I had grieftorch

tight charm
#

torch is great, but its helped massively by its linear scaling on ilvl. i have controlled current technique and spiteful storm and the normal level drops (because trinkets don't exist in heroic for my raid team) sim higher than normal torch, which surprised me.

#

torch is probably better in practice since you can play around damage bonuses and optimize in a way you can't with proc trinkets, but worth noting

viscid oracle
#

Isn't box like 1.4

#

1.5 + haste probably

cosmic narwhal
#

forgive me if this is a dumb question, but i have tried looking through pins - what settings are best to sim m+ for outlaw on raidbots?

half karma
#

dungeonslice

flat nova
#

i might be dumb but what does this mean, the spec aura thing Outlaw Rogue Outlaw Rogue (Spec Aura)
Decreases damage/healing by 3%: Ambush, Blade Flurry, Blade Rush, Deadly Poison, Death from Above, Eviscerate, Gloomblade, Instant Poison, Internal Bleeding, Killing Spree, Main Gauche, Mastery: Main Gauche, Mind-Numbing Poison, Opportunity, Poison Bomb, Secret Technique, Shiv, Sinister Strike, System Shock, Wound Poison
Decreases periodic damage/healing by 3%: Ambush, Blade Flurry, Blade Rush, Deadly Poison, Death from Above, Eviscerate, Gloomblade, Instant Poison, Internal Bleeding, Killing Spree, Main Gauche, Mastery: Main Gauche, Mind-Numbing Poison, Opportunity, Poison Bomb, Secret Technique, Shiv, Sinister Strike, System Shock, Wound Poison

finite sparrow
#

it's part of how blizz balances how much damage your spec does. there are hidden "auras" that blizz can tweak that affect the damage of all those skills. so when tuning says "all ability damage increased by %" they are usually adjusting this aura value

flat nova
#

So this is a flat out 3% dmg decrease?

finite sparrow
#

yeah for all those skills

flat nova
#

Rip :S seems like outlaw is getting hammered right now

finite sparrow
#

This 3% aura nerf is from several weeks ago

flat nova
#

so its live rn?

hearty olive
#

Yes been live since mythic week 2

flat nova
#

ezpz ty

dense scaffold
#

so im curious if anyone has any ideas why it would work out like that

noble pendant
# dense scaffold so im curious if anyone has any ideas why it would work out like that

Just as context, dungeonslice normally has re-stealths and downtime between packs. There's been a lot of work from @knotty oriole behind the scenes to make that stuff better and allow for casts between packs/movement recently. This might be a weird side-effect of some of those changes, or an APL issue that has sprung up in relation to some of those things.

At first I thought that you removing stealths removed the movement/downtime, but it doesn't seem like it did. It also still stealths, so I'm not quite sure what went wrong here if I'm honest. Maybe @half karma or @finite sparrow can find the issue, I'm not well versed in the outlaw specific stuff.

image.png
dense scaffold
#

mm HO dungeon was with stealth

noble pendant
#

I see

dense scaffold
#

or if u look at the buffs section below that, stealth is at 0 sec, 0% uptime vs 15% uptime on the other ones

knotty oriole
#

It’s not really a gain so much as just not doing anything from Steath in particular since you’re mostly Stealthing at finishing CP so it’s just changing the order of globals slightly for BF/BtE

#

Can see you only have like 3 Ambushes in the Stealth profile with that build so the difference is minimal

dense scaffold
#

yea

#

i was curious if it was just because ambush is bad, so i changed ambush to SS on the stealth list

knotty oriole
#

DS sims can be a little sensitive to timing/cast ordering but that’s mostly inconsequential in this case probably and somewhat random.

dense scaffold
knotty oriole
#

But this may change in the future a little bit when we add the between pull casts of like SnD or RtB

dense scaffold
#

ok ic, yeah i mean it's not really important since we already know like, stealth is nice but not that important

#

was just curious

knotty oriole
#

I think it’s mostly just a difference of ordering. Without Stealth you’ll open with BF into BtE and this probably marginally beats Dispatch into BF sometimes.

dense scaffold
#

oo ic

knotty oriole
#

Depending on the pull length

#

But yeah we can look at it a little bit more. I’ll double check nothing is amiss.

dense scaffold
#

so probably not much weird going on with the stealthing in the sims i'm guessing

ruby agate
#

I mean outlaw gains from stealth are... minor? Better buff odds with cto? Slightly more cp efficient opener w/ambush? Better haste uptime with HO builds? (Lol haste) Anything we get is probably dwarfed just by better bf uptime on multitarget. Good news for spiteful week, tbh, since you'll probably almost never get a restealth. Might be able to get both tho - bf at 3s prepull (while out of range), stealth, adren (if improved), rtb, slice (if combo points available), then open with ambush/dispatch as appropriate is actually my opener irl; jiggering the sim to do it in dslice would probably help, like what is being worked on for rtb between pulls.

dense scaffold
potent ferry
#

Ambush without either HO or FW is probably just not worth pressing?

#

Maybe only to build up a fat kir

maiden cargo
#

Hey, what kind of value is effective_combo_points for what I understand it is related to anima charged cp.
It is a boolean like 'Is my current cp charged ?'
It is a number for the biggest charger cp ?

Not sure what it mean with this kind of use :
effective_combo_points>=cp_max_spend
effective_combo_points>combo_points

finite sparrow
#

It evaluates to 7 if you are currently on an animacp

maiden cargo
regal agate
#

time_to_sht is for shadow technique procs

#

it is used in the subtlety apl quite a bit to optimize ER

maiden cargo
regal agate
#

yes

maiden cargo
#

ok just read it on wowhead first two auto cannot make it proc, third auto attack 50% chance and fourth guaranted

potent ferry
#

Also holding bte with 6 or less seconds left of the pack seems like a gain. But there I think morec work can be done. Can we force the sim to switch to the highest hp target before doing bte for example?

#

Note that the hold cds stuff is on top of the tobfon baseline profile, which contains a few other timing optimizations that are not merged yet

#

On use trinkets with stat buffs could probably use a similar condition to the one i used for AR also

#

But it would have to depend on the duration of the buff to be any good probably

knotty oriole
#

I'll be wrapping up the full removal of the primary target in DS sometime this week, just been testing a few more things

hasty parrot
#

adrenaline_rush,precombat_seconds=3,if=talent.improved_adrenaline_rush this will only cast AR if improved AR is talented ye?

half karma
#

yes

regal agate
#

talent.name.enabled or talent.name
both is fine (i prefere the simpler version)

hasty parrot
#

Hm weird, I've removed if=talent.improved_adrenaline_rush as well as precombat_seconds=3 but it still prioritizes ambush

#

Thats for precombat stuff

half karma
#

wdym it prioritizes ambush?

#

this is to do the ar > rtb > snd precombat thing

hasty parrot
#

Sorry I should've mentioned I am using Hekili as a helper, and even with the changes from above it still tells me to cast ambush

#

Rather than AR

#

When stealthed and about to open

#

The whole line is this:

half karma
#

no idea how hekili works cant help you there sorry

hasty parrot
# 
actions.precombat+=/bottled_flayedwing_toxin
actions.precombat+=/stealth
actions.precombat+=/marked_for_death,precombat_seconds=10,if=raid_event.adds.in>25
actions.precombat+=/adrenaline_rush
actions.precombat+=/roll_the_bones,precombat_seconds=2,if=remains<3
actions.precombat+=/slice_and_dice,precombat_seconds=1,if=refreshable```
#

It just follows the APL

#

Completely misses the AR and goes into RTB + Ambush

half karma
#

you removed the ,precombat_seconds=2

#

for adr

hasty parrot
#

Yeah

half karma
#

but I have no idea what hekili does

#

so idk

hasty parrot
#

No worries

potent ferry
#

Hekili probably only does precombat apl if there is a pull timer or maybe not at all

hasty parrot
#

Weird thing is it works for the rest of the stuff

#

Still suggests RtB

warm zinc
#

The APL uses symbols and blades in opener after the first shadowstrike, and instantly after, items (including channeled items)
If you modify it to use shadow blades after the channeled item it's 0.3% gains (in my case with grieftorch), probably more for stuff like puzzle box

#

I guess you could also apply this to Symbols

#

For some more gains

tight charm
#

can you post sequence?

#

or just raw APL somewhere?

warm zinc
regal agate
#

puzzle box is used pre combat, but i am fairly certain similar rules can apply during combat

regal agate
#

Some very niche optimizations that should make it soon into the default sim:

#

Subtlety changes - part 1:
Shuriken storm cleanup:```diff

  • actions.stealthed+=/shuriken_storm,if=variable.gloomblade_condition&buff.silent_storm.up&!debuff.find_weakness.remains
  • actions.stealthed+=/shuriken_storm,if=variable.gloomblade_condition&buff.silent_storm.up&!debuff.find_weakness.remains&talent.improved_shuriken_storm.enabledSmall cleanup for talent combos without improved shuriken storm. **Trinket optimization, pre pull use:**diff
  • actions.precombat+=/variable,name=algethar_puzzle_box_precombat_cast,value=3
  • actions.precombat+=/use_item,name=algethar_puzzle_boxPre combat use for puzzle box **Two target cleave improvements:**diff
  • actions.build=shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=2+(buff.lingering_shadow.up|buff.perforated_veins.up)
  • actions.build=shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=2+(buff.lingering_shadow.remains>=6|buff.perforated_veins.up)keep using Glomblade on two targets with more than 6 seconds of lingering remaining __**Shb optimization for DS & Sepsis**__diff
  • actions.cds+=/shadow_blades,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=2
  • actions.cds+=/shadow_blades,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=2&target.time_to_die>=10&(dot.sepsis.ticking|cooldown.sepsis.remains<=8|!talent.sepsis)|fight_remains<=20```Better handling of Shadowblades in Dungeon Slice and with Sepsis.
#

Subtlety changes - Part 2:
Rotten improvement```diff

  • +actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&fight_remains<cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains|!talent.shadow_dance&dot.rupture.ticking&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4
  • actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&fight_remains<cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains|!talent.shadow_dance&dot.rupture.ticking&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4&!buff.the_rotten.up
  • actions+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=1|fight_remains<=1&variable.effective_combo_points>=3
  • actions+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=1+buff.the_rotten.up|fight_remains<=1&variable.effective_combo_points>=3
**Small improvement for vanish in aoe**
```diff
-  actions.stealth_cds+=/vanish,if=(!talent.danse_macabre|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3)&!variable.shd_threshold&combo_points.deficit>1
+  actions.stealth_cds+=/vanish,if=(!talent.danse_macabre|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3&!buff.silent_storm.up)&!variable.shd_threshold&combo_points.deficit>1```Does prevent the use of Vanish when silent storm is up.
**Small improvement to Cold blood handling**
thanks to  `Kojiyama#4176`.
```diff
- actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&(buff.danse_macabre.stack>=3|!talent.danse_macabre)
+ actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&(buff.danse_macabre.stack>=3|!talent.danse_macabre)&(!talent.cold_blood|cooldown.cold_blood.remains>buff.shadow_dance.remains-2)```
Secret Techniques can be used as 3rd instead of 2nd finisher if cold blood is not up initially.
# 
-- IMPORTANT: KEEP THE CHANNEL TO THEORYCRAFTING TOPICS! --``` 
This means simulations, mathematical models, ideas and observations are welcome.
For APL change it is advised to provide the changed line(s) to make the result easy to test/reproduce.

Ideas or bug reports are usually best to come with media that support/explain it (logs, screenshots, videos).
THE CHANNEL IS HEAVY MODERATED, SO KEEP REGULAR DISCUSSIONS TO THE SPEC CHANNELS!
#

^ just to mention it, dps impact of the apl change will be fairly low usually, the changes are mostly very niche.

regal agate
#

tc-subtlety

#

tc-outlaw

#

tc-assassination

regal agate
flat nova
#

will we have new rotation tweaks etc in faq on wednesday?

regal agate
#

there will be a 10.0.5 update to all 3, i do plan to add new rotational tweaks for #subtlety-faq if rleevant

flat nova
finite sparrow
flat nova
finite sparrow
#

you dont have to check the thread unless you are curious, the threads like #1065730004920586350 is where things are explored without the expectation that someone will read it and run with it before its due diligence is done

flat nova
#

Oh, okay. 😄

#

Thank you alot!

oak thunder
#

everytime I see TC updates i be like peepohappy

oak thunder
#

when we see tc updates, does it mean that they have been implemented in the APL?

regal agate
unique zephyr
noble pendant
unique zephyr
#

Cheers

gusty imp
#

combo_points>=((cp_max_spend-1)<?(6-talent.summarily_dispatched))|effective_combo_points>=cp_max_spend

this line is correctly?

whats means "<?" ?

quiet hound
#

its a max operator --- x1 <? x2 --> if x1 < x2 then x2

gusty imp
#

pog ! thx @quiet hound

knotty oriole
#

Relevant thing:

Fixed an issue where using Windscar Whetstone caused other on-use trinkets to remain unusable for several additional seconds past the displayed cooldown.

unique zephyr
#

I wonder if they fixed both

hollow sparrow
knotty oriole
#

tc-outlaw-rtb-issues

grand torrent
#

I've been wanting to ask, since this issue has been boggling my mind for quite some time, is there a secret parameter or a logic that I am unaware of to the storm eaters boon? Overall whetstone seems to have a much higher dps margin on-use than boon, but boon sims much higher in simulations. Is this purely due to agility vs mastery thing? really appreciate all input on this since I have been pulling all-nighters on excel to figure this out

potent ferry
#

Boon is uncapped aoe. Whetstone just gains 15% damage per additional target up to 60%

#

The rest is tied to agi vs mastery as you suspected

grand torrent
potent ferry
#

Np

nimble temple
#

Is the dance trinket with jetscale devalued by running a 2nd on-use trinket? Sims say the trinket can be used 4 times with Ace over a 5 minute fight. Best I've got so far is 3 after several tests and more often than not it's 2 uses with Ace.

quiet hound
#

as far as i understand sim performance can only be reached by jumping while dmd is on cd/lockout as that shuffles it for some reason -> you can have ace up right when dmd becomes ready

nimble temple
#

Thanks for the info - I can confirm that behavior now

viral mist
#

Looks like Lariat is not simming with the full 12s it should give, only 10s

image.png
potent ferry
#

Checked a log. It's clearly 12 sec in game

#

It undersims then

white grove
#

it does undersim but it still get better uptimes than i do ingame lmao

potent ferry
#

for m+ or raid?

white grove
#

my last terros had 33% for example
not sure if m+ uptime would be accurate but i dont have any samples atm

#

oh got over 40% on a council kill actually

potent ferry
#

best to check raids I think yeah, but there will be some variance obviously

#

I mean, it won't really change anything since everyone is already using lariat 🙂

knotty oriole
#

10s average duration is due to refresh clipping

# 
60.227 Player 'T29_Rogue_Outlaw' gains Buff elemental_lariat__empowered_frost (stacks=1) (value=-2.2250738585072014e-308)
72.227 Player 'T29_Rogue_Outlaw' loses Buff elemental_lariat__empowered_frost
#

Mismatch in the spell data is present due to Blizzard. 10s on the buff and 12s in the spell data on the triggering effect, which is what is used.

white grove
#

can it clip frost with fire for example

knotty oriole
#

Previous buff is expired

#

On any new proc

white grove
#

what's "expiry"

knotty oriole
#

Natural expirations

white grove
#

it says average sophic devo duration is 16.5 sec

#

now im confused

#

oh it counts as a refresh for sophic but lariat counts as getting clipped

potent ferry
#

manic grieftorch is undersimming a bit as well:

image.png
#

it's off gcd so we can actually start it same gcd as the ambush

#

not sure how easy it would be to force the sim to do that though

white grove
#

opportunity procs dont cancel it like fth right

prime narwhal
#

it should be in the sub apl, maybe not in the outlaw one i dunno

potent ferry
#

maybe we can steal the line from sub apl then

#

use_item,name=manic_grieftorch,use_off_gcd=1,if=gcd.remains>gcd.max-0.1,if=!stealthed.all

#

the extra pistol shots from fth does cancel it actually

#

probably also getting a proc from ambush/ss then

regal agate
#

moment, ill test it

potent ferry
#

might be only ps if we are lucky

#

the fth implementation is spaghetti I think

white grove
#

you could like make it not cast if you have exactly 1, 2, 4 or 5 stacks

regal agate
#

seems like a small gain

white grove
#

oh i thought you were testing the proc thing canceling casts in game

potent ferry
#

I tested ps only so far, will try to get it to cancel with ss/ambush

half karma
#

can use the pvp talent to proc more might be easier

regal agate
#

order seems to be whestone -> torch

#

in the trinekt priority

#

this was good enough in my test

+ actions.cds+=/use_item,name=manic_grieftorch,use_off_gcd=1,if=gcd.remains>gcd.max-0.1,if=!stealthed.all
potent ferry
#

for sims yeah, in game you want do torch first in case someone goes and resets it for you

#

we have to model the ps interaction though

#

didn't the outlaw apl have a check for no AR as well for grieftorch?

half karma
#

yea but I do believe its not a gain anymore

regal agate
#

it did ye

potent ferry
#

old line was this:
use_item,name=manic_grieftorch,if=!stealthed.all&!buff.adrenaline_rush.up|fight_remains<5

half karma
regal agate
#

moment, ill compare

half karma
#

without bte

potent ferry
#

why no bte check, that's weird

half karma
#

adr*

#

I added bte sorry

#

not sure why there wasnt a bte check tho

white grove
#

is there any trinket we want to use without bte

potent ferry
#

I love torch

regal agate
#

i had a bte check in the above, but it seemed to not impact the result

white grove
#

well you said it uses whetstone first

regal agate
#

btw. order of use seems to be whatever too, was just slightly ahead due to target error

#

lines are:

#off gcd
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=manic_grieftorch,use_off_gcd=1,if=gcd.remains>gcd.max-0.1,if=!stealthed.all
#ar sync
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=manic_grieftorch,use_off_gcd=1,if=gcd.remains>gcd.max-0.1,if=!stealthed.all&!buff.adrenaline_rush.up|fight_remains<5
#bte check
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=manic_grieftorch,use_off_gcd=1,if=gcd.remains>gcd.max-0.1,if=!stealthed.all&debuff.between_the_eyes.up|fight_remains<=5
potent ferry
#

bte seems somewhat significant at least

half karma
#

ar check seems to not be so we could just update the whole thing so its cleaned

#

I even got a pretty green number

image.png
#

got lucky

white grove
#

does the fth cancelling thing not happen in sims

potent ferry
#

I haven't been able to get it to cancel with ambush or ss

#

getting it to cancel with fth is very easy though

#

doubt that happens in sims

#

also not sure it is necessary to implement that, we could just add something to not torch if last gcd was ps in the apl instead if we want it to be fair

regal agate
#

also on the topic of trinkets:

image.png
#

algathar pre pull seems to be quite good for outlaw too

#

off gcd use seems fairly whatever

#

this line:

+ actions.precombat+=/variable,name=algethar_puzzle_box_precombat_cast,value=3
+ actions.precombat+=/use_item,name=algethar_puzzle_box```
potent ferry
#

without fixes to simc I think it will be hard to model algethar puzzle box fairly in ds

#

since apl is not called often enough when there are no valid targets

regal agate
#

the sim was for single target

potent ferry
#

but it should be good to try to sync it to between packs in DS and hold it at end of packs and that kind of stuff

regal agate
#

algathar is still not great tho ^^ just less shit

potent ferry
#

ST isn't really the best arena for it for outlaw

regal agate
#

true, but the off gcd use seems significant enough to be added

#

and shouldn't cause issues in DS

potent ferry
#

should bug report torch being cancelled by ps tbh

#

but it makes sense since also cp gain from fth is delayed

white grove
#

well wcl shows fth as actual casts

raven crown
#

does it get cancelled by weaponmaster too then maybe

#

i've had it cancel on me a few times in raid tonight so maybe thats the reason

potent ferry
#

I couldn't get it to cancel from ss/ambush procs no

#

Can try some more, but pretty sure

raven crown
#

odd, was in sub but it cancelled like twice on me

#

could have been something on my end though

potent ferry
#

Got a log?

#

Maybe it can cancel if you are very fast or macro it

plucky iris
#

i just cancelled mine too

#

as sub

#

tried it

#

sec

raven crown
#

i think i hit grieftorch too fast and spamming gloomblade queued

west prism
#

Maybe WM procs cancels it

#

If ur too fast

potent ferry
#

but only on sub?

#

could be

raven crown
#

could be something with gloomblade specifically

potent ferry
#

different implementation than opportunity for outlaw so it is possible

raven crown
#

this being said that log i linked it looks like maybe i spammed too much

plucky iris
#

im dumb so dont know how to log dummies

#

or is it supposed to behave like this? I thought you should be able to spam abilities during the cast and it not stop the channel

prime narwhal
#

are you just canceling it with a normal strike

raven crown
#

no you have to channel it

west prism
prime narwhal
#

no its a channeled ability

plucky iris
#

ohhhh my b sorry guys

prime narwhal
#

doing stuff stops it

raven crown
#

you just lose 1 gcd instead of 2 if you start the channel in the ogcd

potent ferry
#

I'll try macroing it to ambush

regal agate
#

iirc there is a macro condition to check if you are channeling

#

probably [nochannel] or sth similar

potent ferry
#

yeah, should add that to all skills probably when running torch

#

except maybe kick/stuns

raven crown
#

lol imagine missing a stun bc you were channeling grieftorch

#

if the ability that goes off kills someone then it is a dps gain im just sayin

potent ferry
#

I tried ambush with torch macroed to it, procced ambush double hit but torch wasn't cancelled

plucky iris
#

being able to spam abilities during puzzlebox and them not going off but not with torch is messing with my brain. i guess its a channel vs cast things

raven crown
#

you can use abilities during puzzlebox?

potent ferry
#

nah, but you can spam them without canceling the cast

raven crown
#

ahh

potent ferry
#

oh well, for outlaw I'm pretty sure only fth will cancel torch

#

torch goes on full cd if you do that too

raven crown
#

yea ill keep an eye out to see if WM is weird w/ sub but it looks like i just played bad

potent ferry
#

if you cancel torch due to movement it only goes on 20 sec cd I think

#

but you get one tick off here so it goes on full cd

potent ferry
#

I've had it canceled after dispatch now as well, very strange

pallid gulch
#

Hi does anyone find sub rouge Shuriken Storm does not have dmg increase from tier 2 set bonus?

potent ferry
#

since torch is an off gcd channel, maybe we should have cancel spell queue macro for it

quiet hound
#

/cqs you mean? yea, that sounds about right. i have suggested that to others that had problems, do not own torch myself tho .. so cant really attest if it makes a difference

runic adder
#

maybe this is a better place to ask: what exactly does stealthed.all mean/stand for in the APL?

regal agate
#

it includes all variation of stealth

#

so regular stealth (the ability), vanish, shadow dance, shadowmeld, etc.

runic adder
#

ok, so another way to read it is stealthed.any, ty

regal agate
#

it is not always the best option tho, e.g. subterfuge has on some specs low impact and hence they might even ignore this version of stealth

quiet hound
#

subterfuge is included in stealthed.all tho, correct?

regal agate
#

yes

quiet hound
#

(was just making sure its clear as you did not list it initially)

regal agate
#

i did mention etc because i likely forgot something like sepsis stealth or subterfuge

quiet hound
#

yea, you are right. basically anything that would allow using any stealth ability (apart from audacity which is different)

regal agate
#

yes because audacity and blindside are procs on abilities, not actual stealth-enabling abilities.

vast venture
#

idk if this is the place to ask, but, is there any path to follow to start theorycrafting like you guys do?

willow knoll
#

Just do it

half karma
regal agate
#

the easiest way to start is to try to do some small changes.
e.g. start to copy a profile/apl like this and modify it.

#

the apl in general is just a sequence of logical conditions and most of it is fairly easy to understand from the naming

nimble spade
#

raidbots not working for any1 else

regal agate
#

raidbots has problems atm:

image.png
earnest raptor
#

Guys, I dont have it recorded nor anything, but I had my whelp 6/6 on ST, then missclicked on me for 5/6 ST and 1/6 crit buff...
The next day I trained it for ST and it went 6/6 which is perfect, but I'd imagine it would always train the "oldest" one

#

Any1 knows something?

daring fiber
raw knoll
earnest raptor
runic adder
#

need feedback on something I just saw: Im using Hekili ingame on a training dummy as sub and comparing the suggestions to the APL. Hekili just suggested using Cold Blood followed by Shadowstrike followed by Secret Technique.

#

I guess this is because run_action_list,name=stealthed always comes before call_action_list,name=finish, meaning sometimes Cold Blood will be used for a damaging ability from the stealthed action list

#

is that correct, and is that intended?

noble pendant
#

The call for cold blood, and secret technique are in the same link and written in a way that they’re synced

#

The order of the action list shouldn’t matter I think

regal agate
#

cold blood is in the finish list, so what list is called is irrelevant

#

i assume it is a slight mistake in how hekili implements the rotation

#

basically what i mean is, cold blood won't be use if the sim wouldn't opt to use a finisher

raw knoll
regal agate
#

hence that it can't use it for a builder

runic adder
#

guess I dont really understand how the APL is processed in simulationcraft then. I thought each line would be a seperate action, after which the whole listz gets re-checked again from top to bottom to determine the next action

regal agate
#

because it wouldn't reach the finisher sub list if it skips over them

raw knoll
#

last I tested hekili it’s 100% for sub

#

so is herorotation

regal agate
#

if it suggests cold blood-strike, it is not 100% for sub

raw knoll
#

so it’s a user error

regal agate
#

but ill go over it quickly

raw knoll
#

something mangled their config or setup.

regal agate
#

if you look at the stealthed list, the red ones will call the finisher sub list

image.png
runic adder
#

my addon is not up to date I just realized

regal agate
#

the blue ones would call for strike

#

so in order to ask for strike, it would need to "skip" the red ones

raw knoll
#

they push updates nearly daily if you watch their github

runic adder
regal agate
#

cold blood is in the "finish" sublist as you see here

image.png
regal agate
runic adder
#

yeah afaik shadow dance was up during that suggestion

#

that doesnt count though right?

regal agate
#

stealth and vanish is not shadow dance

#

stealth is only accassable outside of combat

raw knoll
#

update the addon and try again

regal agate
#

vanish is applied after using vanish

raw knoll
#

lots of what ifs for outdated addon

runic adder
#

im also trying to replicate before updating, but its not happening

#

maybe it was a one off

regal agate
#

if an update fixed it, all fine. But also should move the discussion to a different channel

noble pendant
#

(Or hekili support)

graceful onyx
#

So, Darkmoon Deck Box: Dance with Azurescale Sigil

#

1st, as I suspected, Blizzard preemptively fun-detected this shit

#

it's not always landing you on 8, but instead it chooses a random card and counts down

#

basically, worthless sigil

#

2nd, this thing tends to override the new-ish "always land on 7" feature/bug pretty consistently

#

i tried 6 casts of it without leaving combat/vanishing

#

and i didn't start at 7 a single time after the 1st cast

#

in conclusion, this sigil is gonna fuck up the trinket on long-ish ST fights in the very immediate here and now

#

but as is, it will also never be useful in the future

vast venture
#

I tested hekili today for study reasons and could not reproduce what you reported

#

Perhaps that is something that the GitHub/hekili discord might help more? Idk

gloomy glade
#

not working as intended

graceful onyx
#

ngl i dont even know what's a bug and what's intended with this trinket anymore

graceful onyx
#

so a list of strange behaviors for that trinket if we dont have one already

#
  1. now only shuffles in combat, which is intentional since it's in description, but we dont know if resetting shuffles from dropping combat is also intended
#
  1. now shuffle always resets after every cast for some reason, no clue if this is intentional, but it hard screws jetscale
#
  1. always resetting to 7 with the aforementioned situations -- this can be broken pretty consistently with ember and azure, @white grove and his sagescale is perma stuck on 7 tho
#
  1. right after the trinket comes off cooldown, u can cast it again right away, but for about 2~3 seconds, u don't have a card at all, and if u cast during that time you get 3 bounces instead of the lowest possible of 5. Needless to say, not worth to cast during that time, and I'm sure if this is intentional either, probably not but who knows with Blizzard.
#
  1. If you log off with the trinket equipped you also just randomly go into that state of having the cd to cast but not having a card mentioned in 4. This is def a bug, and is fixed by putting trinket off and on again every time u log in
#

Duke and his sagescale getting hard locked on 7 could count as a 6th bug but idk lol, wasn't me testing, will let him add if he's down to

white grove
#

im getting 7 every time in a dungeon

#

and it's pretty long

image.png
graceful onyx
#

yeah well emberscale def fixes it

#

and azurescale does too