lmk when you got more data, so I can implement it into SimC to see Blizz hotfix it tomorrow
#tc-updates
pseudo grove
I'm an honest guy, sorry :/
fair crystal
@fathom bramble i'm about as casual as it gets while still raiding, without fully quitting the game
i think i've spent maybe 45 minutes total on the broken shore since tuesday
pseudo grove
More infos: Even without the bug, Sinister Circulation makes it worth to cast KB on CD.
Also, I update a little more the APL, especially for the Vanish/Envenom case with NS (not worth if you don't have T19 4PC, which is something possible). Of course, still worth only if you got Mantle.
brazen jay
Also scrap that about weapon damage. WP just acts weridly with mastery
It obeys all other multipliers correctly but mastery rating
little pelican
does DP and WP have any kind of base dmg?
with 9k attackpower on a naked char, the tooltip suggest 3110 dmg for WP, and 4443 dmg for DP.
pseudo grove
# Sinister Circulation makes it worth to cast Kingsbane on CD, although you shouldn't cast it if you're [stealthed w/ Subterfuge] or [stealthed and have Mantle w/ Nighstalker].
Finding of the morning 😛
pseudo grove
If you want to have some fun with T20 (as they are right now on PTR, might change ofc), Assa T20 is in.
Sub will follow
And poor pirate will be last 😛
civic umbra
fathom bramble
Always*
pseudo grove
PSA: Since some of you didn't understood, T19+T20 is not possible. It's just for science. For 2pc+2pc+4pc, I suffixed with _2pc the one that isn't 4pc. Else, Txx means 4pc.
pseudo grove
So, Loaded Dice makes you roll 10% less in average, it might be a bit higher if you don't have good leggos (Mantle/Bracers), but considering the spec is viable only with those, well ...
Loaded Dice does not solve World of True Bearing situation. You always want True Bearing, this will be the case until they pushes out True Bearing from Roll the Bones (hello Blurred Time) or destroy the buff (who said 1s cdr ? ayyy, they might gives +20% dmg to compensate the output, even if gameplay will still be AIDs).
Thanks @worldly nebula for Loaded Dice addin, can't wait to have more people contributing to Rogue SimC 😃 😃
Anyway, the discussion around Roll the Bones on the PTR forums will be very interesting, I'll make a detailed analysis on the current situation and how to fix the situation while still having an enjoyable gameplay. (I miss Combat a lot sometimes, Deep Insight or not, Ruthlessness < 7.0 was really cool, again, something that for sure would be a good replacement to current not impactful Blurred Time)
pseudo grove
Aethys-Sama is solving this WP "bug" 😃
gonna found out what is wrong, if there is anything wrong 😉
tough sleet
Well wowhead values are wrong. They list WP instant as 13% AP and the DP instant after first application as 21.5% AP. And they have 30% application chance for both. I know app chance on live is 50%. And WP instant dmg is higher than DP instant by about 40%.
What are the actual %tages?
pseudo grove
the idea is
DP get mastery scaling divided between the dot and the instant portion
while WP fully get it since there is only one type of damage
now I'm wondering what is in SimC
ok so
if I add another time the mastery value in wound poison direct amount multiplier
I should get the in game value
currently, for example when DP get 5% and 5%
WP only get 5%
while in game, it get 5% * 5% increase
(1.05 * 1.05)
white trail
@tough sleet app chance is 50% because there is a hidden passive http://www.wowhead.com/spell=14117/improved-poisons
pseudo grove
yes
but that's not the subject 😄
so considering it's a dot that you refresh
a portion of this damage is lost when re-applied
the question is, after how many ticks per duration (let's say 12s for the simplicity) it's better to use WP over DP
that's something simc will tell us 😄
tough sleet
What I was thinking that because DP is a dot and has a lesser instant. So that DoT won't increase in dmg. Since WP has a higher instant you may be able to apply enough that it outdamages DP
I was thinking same thing
pseudo grove
yes
this part is boring to do in spreadsheet
and simc handles that
my wonders was how dmg are computed
once I got it, I plug it into simc and simc tells me
tough sleet
Wanted %s so I could see if they intersect
pseudo grove
that's the magic part of simulator
Another question I could ask to applicants in my guild, "how mastery affects deadly poison and wound poison ?" ahahah
could add agonizing aswell, since it's another way aswell
tough sleet
10 page paper. Single spaced.
white trail
I don't get what your spreadsheet means @pseudo grove
pseudo grove
I was putting value to understand how things scale
nothing to understand from that
and lack of explanations
but I have what I wanted
white trail
you shared it so I wonder what it means
pseudo grove
well, so you know where does it comes from
took % mastery with different AP values dmg from poison
with and without MP (in case there is a weird behavior, but there is none)
and tried to understand if there were something wonky with mastery or ap or both
I've found a bug in rogue simc module
while updating this
deadly & wound ignores surge of toxins modifier
which shouldn't be the case
will be fixed !
bug present since Aug 14, 2016 😛
pseudo grove
Wound and Poison will sims correctly in next nightly 😉
pseudo grove
This is with T19M_NH, DP and WP are with Alacrity.
i.e.: WP is better than DP with more than 13-14k Mastery
With bracers, values are roughly the same.
tough sleet
Looks like it will even overtake AP eventually
pseudo grove
AP won't be in the game when that will be the case 😛
pseudo grove
And remember that as soon as you FoK, DP pulls ahead because of Poison Knives
So, considering AP is best in ST and DP is best in AoE, bug or not, WP is not really a good idea 😃
real crag
@pseudo grove I found that the old APL for envenom rules and handling of draught are actually simming higher than the current rules with latest nightly.
pseudo grove
It is possible 😄
real crag
i.e. actions.cds+=/use_item,name=draught_of_souls,if=energy.time_to_max>3.5&(!talent.agonizing_poison.enabled|(debuff.agonizing_poison.stack=5&debuff.surge_of_toxins.remains>3))
and: actions.finish+=/envenom,if=combo_points>=4|(talent.elaborate_planning.enabled&combo_points>=3+!talent.exsanguinate.enabled&buff.elaborate_planning.remains<0.3)
with an ~850k parse, was in the range of 10k increase
pseudo grove
Do you have the report where you compared those ?
tough sleet
My comparison puts the new lines almost 10k higher
pseudo grove
May you do a TL;DR ?
of both things
cuz I don't have much time right now, so I can go straight and test it when I'll be back
real crag
Envenom line - current APL vs old
Sorry, was a bit busy last night.
Thats not including the DoS line, as I had Frond equipped.
I was hastey with the DoS line however, the new line is a DPS increase. The old envenom holds true though, guessing its due to mantle opener. The existing APL leads to some strange behaviour for me in the opener where it will do 2 mutilates and end up with 0 envenoms in the first mantle buff.
pseudo grove
Yes, I experienced those envenoms issues in-game yesterday and thought about it, basically it tell you to pool while you should just spam Env. (During Mantle buff, when you are high in energy such as cleave situation, etc...)
pseudo grove
With the addon that plug-in the APL, and yes AethysRotation.
I didn't pushed it to Curse yet tho.
real crag
Whats the APL plugin?
pseudo grove
real crag
Oh, thought you were referring to an addon that is used to generate APL, seperate to AethysRotation
pseudo grove
Multiples does that, but without enough "precision" in my opinion.
And yes, I have a script that generates a skeleton from an APL that I tweak after.
pseudo grove
Interesting
From the Shadows is no longer bugged in 7.2 😃
Before, it was ignoring AP multiplier.
pseudo grove
I've updated AethysRotation (mostly for Assassination), feel free to test it. If you see something weird, do not hesitate to report me back, it'll help me to improve further the APL.
Keep in mind some things:
- You need enemies nameplates to be turned ON (which should be the case already 😛 ) and also visible on your screen for an accurate TTD (so if your camera is zoomed in, you might not see any nameplate and it won't advice any multi dotting)
- I have not implemented yet the prevention of Garrote/Rupture early refresh (when it's empowered through NS or Subter) nor Draught of Souls management, it'll be in next version. (In SimC, it does correctly)
- There is no solo logic for Rupture like there is for Nightblade (i.e., it might advice you to Rupture a mob that you can kill with one Muti and one Env), will be changed in the future.
Anyway, as I said earlier, I'm pretty sure Rogue APL can be improved further so do not hesitate to mention me with your ideas.
pseudo grove
Oh btw, (since I receive a lot of DMs about that), I have updated the APL yesterday, it should be in the SimC 7.2 Release. Try it 😃
pseudo grove
May someone confirms to me if Zoldyck works on Poison Knives or not ?
Can't test on PTR right now
white trail
Isn't it physical damage?
pseudo grove
I thought it was Nature like DP ?
pseudo grove
pseudo grove
I'm waiting the next PTR patch (or rather the patch where there will be more complete rogue changes) to start implementing Rogue changes into SimC aswell as publishing specs threads on PTR forums 😃
Celestalon said in a tweet yesterday that the patch was missing a lot of stuff 😉
dense swift
Some thoughts about sub changes so far.
Assuming they keep the previous patch notes as well noting the shadowstrike tp changes (good!) and the Shadow Dance changes.
I have a strong feeling that dance still won't feel as "impactful" even if we go the low SD uptime route. Something I'm sure anyone playing sub has felt is that they do about the same damage on a progress boss lasting 8 minutes as on a farm boss lasting 1 minute where we have all of our cd's up all the time. While other classes and specs burst for 300-400% of their average damage. I feel if they want to give us a burstiness option, they need to be more extreme than what they are giving us now, which is +30% damage, as well as giving us the option to opt out of subterfuge for 50% more damage during stealth. I feel they could easily doubled these numbers if not more and then balancing us with lower out of stealth damage but an interesting playstyle to regain stealth.
Their nightblade change seem weird. They want us to focus damage into one target, perfect for those situations where we need to mediate the HP of targets while everyone else is AoE'ing. Now they add a ramp up time for swapping targets during this "AoE" which makes it more awkward for what they want to do. Also, +50% evis damage during high AoE with a cap of 5 scales extremely poorly compared to the ability of having nightblade running on a ton of targets. Maybe they'll consider removing the cap of 5 if it doesn't cause problems.
Premed vs. MFD seems like a more natural choice, good move. The 90 talent row will be interesting to calculate the winner for. It's interesting how they with these changes make the spec feel very different depending on what you choose without actually making the player play differently. That's a real shame.
SoD seems really weird, hopefully this gets changed to something less boring. It also significally reduces the current state of t20 bonuses, but I guess that will be changed in balance.
Overall - I feel their "vision" they stated for us seemed awesome, but they are too cautious and they only slightly moved towards that. I would love if they really made impactful changes so that different talents felt and played very differently. As well as making different talents vastly different depending on what you need to do (Prio add, patchwerk, hectic cleave, short burst fights etc etc).
chrome sun
I think I agree with you on balance. I'm looking forward to the relentless strikes changes (5 energy per CP) as it really makes DS feel broken when you see an 80 energy proc now. I'm also looking forward to the shadow techniques change (5 energy on proc rather than 1 CP). I think that the Energetic Stabbing change (25% chance of 5 energy/point --> 50% chance of 2 energy / point) is going to be sneaky and change the flow of most shadow dances.
dense swift
Deimos, we'll still get cp from shadow techniques (unless I missed something) it's the new artifact trait http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=242707/shadows-whisper?rank=0 that goes from 5 energy on proc to 8 energy on ptr
chrome sun
I misread, you seem to be correct.
dense swift
The energetic stabbing working on backstabs in a time where we will do more backstabs is pretty interesting. Imo the spec feels really good during the time atm if we have 0 dances and work towards getting one rather than as we have them on demand
worldly nebula
i agree, new SoD is pretty boring. also, I noticed that without those 2 additional Shadowstrike CPs (and t19 4pc), Shadowstrike only dances would be possible in the non Subterfuge and premed route, SoD kinda forces you to use Eviscerate
the burst will hopefully be tuned up some more, as you said it's still not as impactful as I assume it's supposed to be
aside from that, is there some class-fantasy reason only Sub gets Blurred Speed Sprint?
i wonder about Master of Shadows now, in my tests i didn't really feel like i need the energy gain
maybe it's better for beginners and learning the spec like vigor
rain lance
Hey folks, lets try to keep this channel focused on quantitative analysis, there are plenty of channels to talk about fantasy and whatnot
pseudo grove
By the way, I'm very busy lately so do not expect "7.2.5 Ready" sims until the end of the week at least. Except if a magic contributor spawns and do everything in a Pull Request 😛
pseudo grove
Most (if not all ? 😜 ) Subtlety 7.2.5 PTR Changes are on SimC thanks to @worldly nebula.
You'll find them in the next nightly (or you can build it from the repo now), APL has been slightly adjusted. Both PTR and Live version are on the same APL 😃
worldly nebula
I just added the known Outlaw changes for 7.2.5 PTR to SimC as well.
except, do we have any data on if/how the RtB mechanic changed?
Developers' notes: The distribution of the number of buffs you get from Roll the Bones has changed. On average, you will get fewer buffs. Our goal is to significantly reduce the desire to frequently recast Roll the Bones when you get 1 buff.
little pelican
search your pms, buddy :3
pseudo grove
you can't search accross all PMs, only the current window.
although, he saw this message and pmed me, so it's all good now 😃
worldly nebula
interesting, blizzard said that they want you not to cycle nightblade targets against 4+ enemies with 7.2.5, but sims seem to indicate it's a loss, atm
(10 target sim)
pseudo grove
NB DPE is really high tbh
worldly nebula
cycled nightblade is ~60% dmg source, otherwise eviscerate ~55%
tough sleet
Why does SnD just rocket up 100k dps on the 7.2.5 build.
Using the old 7.2 apl it surpasses rtb.
tough sleet
Wow. Just wow. If nothing changes. Outlaw SnD is best by far ST and MT.
little pelican
Seems fishy.
worldly nebula
if anyone has PTR logs spamming RtB (without AR+LoadedDice) please pm me
pseudo grove
Considering the removal of RtB 3 and 6 along with the fact that we got 1 or 2 buffs, it's likely that we'll still fish TB unless we got 2 buffs.
Issue being by essence the power of TB for Vanish and BtE making Mantle & Bracers really OP in regards to this.
In case you see this Blizzard, consider removing TB from RtB and let only 5 buffs (since we can only got 5 now, it won't hurt much). This will also let you balance the spec way more easily considering SnD and RtB would be direct damage increase without impact on CDs.
More detailed feedback on this incoming this week-end on PTR forums 😃
brazen jay
Also on the topic of bugs:
NS is most likely superior to subter in reality due to the hotfix they did to prevent FtS from breaking vanish.
You can get 2 empowered abilities with one vanish
pseudo grove
Yes I've seen that, not in SimC yet tho.
pseudo grove
Gonna be tonight most likely ;)
Not sure NS Rup/Env Garrote is something intended by Blizzard, but as always, #rogue bugs
pallid halo
@pseudo grove Is that statement/analysis assuming modified ptr rtb distribution numbers?
pseudo grove
Yes
Especially since 5 buffs looks like not to be 10% as "expected". We don't know yet what they did to get those odds for 1, 2 or 5 buffs.
pallid halo
Yeah, i expect the probabilities are still in flux.
pseudo grove
Hmm, we never mentionned it here, but our try to implement RtB as it works on the PTR is not okay. So any 7.2.5 RtB sims is not valid.
And so on, any reroll rules 😉
Btw, do not forget aswell that it's PTR, nothing is set in stone 😃
worldly nebula
yeah, we assumed it was just rolling 5 instead of 6 dice while keeping the physical mechanic behind it, but the probabilities do not match. looks like PTR uses hardcoded probabilities (5 buffs is around 1% instead of 10%)
white trail
do you have some data to play with?
worldly nebula
this was a comparison of the probabilities that I made under the assumption of rolling 5 dice: https://puu.sh/vtwdT/592f42f66b.png
based on a log I got with 950 rolls, I got these probabilities though:
1 --> 0.8023
2 --> 0.1829
5 --> 0.0148
however, I would like to check more logs, that's why I asked the other day
tough sleet
So based on your data that would give us an approximate .325 chance to roll 2+ buffs
white trail
Picture is not from data. List above it is from ptr data and it shows ~20% chance for 2+
unreal turret
The 950 rolls i put up maybe don't capture enough as the 5 buffs are a lot rarer. I'll run it over night for 10000+
brazen jay
Gonna post here too:
Initial t20 testing shows that:
Blurred time is independant from AR and is just a 15s hidden buff
So it doesnt benefit from the 5 sec longer AR in 725
nor does it benefit from the additional ar granted by t20
worldly nebula
As a quick update: I implemented all of the latest Rogue changes from 7.2.5 PTR Build 24116 in simc and they should be available for testing in the latest nightly build.
With regards to RtB, I implemented the hardcoded probabilities from the design insight for now, since they seem to be close to data from logs. (1 buff: 79%, 2: 20%, 5: 1%)
white trail
Research on potential reroll rules in 7.2.5 and if there are any.
Sim conditions - Single target, no CoF, no t19, t20 4p
Talents - GS, DS, Alacrity, MfD
No legendaries
Bracers
Mantle
Bracers + Mantle
Even tho rerolling for 2+ seems like the overall best approach I suspect it is the case due to incorrect probabilities for buffs used in simc
and even under current circumstances No reroll strat is 2-2.5% away from best found so far which is not big
maybe @late relic can share correct numbers for 1,2 and 5 buffs with us
worldly nebula
🙏
white trail
to reduce search space I simmed every 1 and 2 buffs combo as if they were present all the time( so whole fight with only TB, whole fight with only Broadsides, etc. ). You can find charts below so if anyone has ideas for different strats - test them. I will add simc profiles as well
No legendaries
Bracers
Mantle
Bracers + Mantle
profile for cominations - https://pastebin.com/hGeXMUre
profile for reroll strats - https://pastebin.com/sPrNCvd5
pseudo grove
Kingsbane generates 50 Energy over 5 sec.
Restless Blades reduces the cooldown of Curse of the Dreadblades by 0.25 sec per combo point spent.```🤔
tough sleet
Kingsbane generates 50 Energy over 5 sec.*
white trail
results on RtB reroll strat are incorrect due to bug in simc. Next nightly should fix it, will redo my sims soon™ after
pallid halo
is poison bomb affected by vendetta, it doesn't seem to be listed on affected spells
ask mr robot has poison bomb blacklisted on vendetta as well
pseudo grove
vendetta doesn't increase PB dmg
white trail
Since simc got fixed there are some fresh results to share.
Conditions:
- Single target only
- If bracers legendary is equipped Quick Draw talent is used, otherwise Ghostly Strike
- Other talents are standard - DS, Alacrity, MfD
- tier19 bonuses disabled, both tier20 used
As a result - rerolling for 2+ but only with Loaded Dice seems like the most appropriate strategy for now. Some special tactics might yield a DPS increase but it's rather tiny to not bother
Profile names explanation:
- No reroll - ...
- 2+ - reroll for any 2+ buffs at any point
- TB or 2+ - fish for True Bearing or 2+ buffs
- 2+; only with LD - reroll for 2+ buffs only if Loaded Dice is up
- 5 or 2 wo GM; only with LD - reroll only with Loaded Dice if we have any single buff and any 2 buffs one of which is Grand Melee
- No single GM wo LD; 2+ with LD - if no Loaded Dice rereroll only if we have single Grand Melee, if we have LD buff up reroll for 2+
- No single GM wo LD; 5 or 2 wo GM with LD - if we don't have Loaded Dice reroll out from single Grand Melee, if we have buff reroll from any single buff and 2 buffs with Grand Melee
Sims: http://imgur.com/a/3Napy
Profile: https://pastebin.com/sPrNCvd5 ( don't forget to change talents/gear )
worldly nebula
Hello fellow Sub rogues! I ran a few (i.e. 6075) simulations to test a number of set and legendary combinations for every talent setup. You can check the results in the following spreadsheet. Please be aware that this is PTR and subject to change, of course. I ran this out of curiosity and the intention is not to promote any definitive builds as there can be a lot of variety depending on the situation. https://simc.mystler.eu/rogue_725.html
pseudo grove
👍
worldly nebula
I have run a simulation on abusing the "Vanish Bug" pinned in #subtlety. The idea is that you can abuse the same issue as in the opener and protect stealth by using Shadow Dance right before the vanish buff converts into stealth. As soon as that happened, you can enjoy your prolonged mantle window. However, this approach seems to be a loss. https://puu.sh/w4o2l/350e7d4c26.png
If you want to check the report for questions or feedback.
This may be a DPS increase with burst builds in 7.2.5, but we'll wait until we have more research and tuning with PTR setups.
worldly nebula
FYI: I updated my Subtlety spreadsheet with current results.
stuck sapphire
Some calculations mainly for energy LvLs for shadowdance (sub):
https://pastebin.com/fLCAuPzA
(keep in mind that you may need to set them higher becouse these calculations dont take latency into consideration)
white trail
Thanks to @worldly nebula we now have Sephuz implemented in SimC Rogue module. And here are some results with it! Talents - QD - DS - Alac- DfA. t20 4p, no t19, CoF and Frond
Single Target
http://i.imgur.com/nr4rOKt.png
2 Targets
http://i.imgur.com/TiVmGnF.png
HecticAddCleave
http://i.imgur.com/nPVvC2J.png
white trail
To clarify - main goal of those sims was to see how traxxis + sephuz fare against other popular legendaries combos without/with sephuz procing
fair crystal
current simc nightlies have most of the 7.2.5 support, correct?
worldly nebula
yes
stuck geode
is there any reason ingisnia wasn't included in those 7.2.5 sub sims
worldly nebula
i only simulated combinations with the best few legendaries because otherwise the number of simulations would explode
you're free to run simulations with the other legendaries yourself, of course 😉
worldly nebula
@brazen jay and I updated our 7.2.5 simulation sheet. Furthermore, I created a better view for it with filtering options: https://simc.mystler.eu/rogue_725.html
small mountain
Could you add damage spread/variance please as well? maybe just for the top result
pseudo grove
There will be several updates to the Rogue this week-end, especially in regards to the APLs.
Remember that EVERY results that you can find are under the asumptions that everything is bugfree, everything is optimized, nothing will change. Which is not the case, of course 😃
i.e. Do not take it literally.
fair crystal
so what you're saying is that i should take everything as Bible-truth
pseudo grove
Note: We’re planning another round of class tuning for later in the week once we have more data from live realms; these are merely a first pass. Additionally, we plan to partially reduce the 7.2.5 nerf to Draught of Souls for Fury Warriors.
We’ll share full details on all of these changes as soon as possible.```
To all the people worried by the "low rogues numbers". I guess we can say we are underperforming in 7.2.5 😉There is a trinket list currently in the work/ready, it'll be released really soon.
Until then, please stop asking it everywhere every 3mins, ty.
pseudo grove
Maybe on the next patch/hotfix 😃
pseudo grove
Rip Outlaw, see you next tier.
We have to reswap the tier for Assa on SimC. It's a welcome change I guess.
Btw, the big change is still missing. i.e. CoF adjustments. This is the important thing that should happen in the next days/weeks. Prolly a RPPM nerf.
pseudo grove
I'm currently updating the spreadsheet that has been linked recently, more infos soonTM 😃
pseudo grove
Assa & Outlaw updated (although, APL still need work), will update Subtlety once I'll have released APL changes.
pseudo grove
This is what happens when you optimize the Sub APL 😛
Although, still not Arms level!
DfA is a viable alternative to MoSh (without any bug), and is really good for AoE. 😉 (i.e. as soon as there is any cleave, you take DfA)
And it's still the 1st pass, will be improved over the time.
pseudo grove
All trinkets sims (including Outlaw) are gonna be updated during the afternoon, will be available tonight.
Although, ALWAYS sim yourself, it's just here to give a rough idea in a given context.
pseudo grove
Subtlety is done, Outlaw/Assa will follow a bit later, have to fix some things before.
pseudo grove
All trinkets simulations are online.
WARNING: Always use this url as main route: https://ravenholdt-tc.github.io/
Individual pages path might be modified, so always use the main page to access the resources.
fathom bramble
I'd say "website" instead of "router"
pseudo grove
I wanted to say route initially 😛
As I see a lot of thanks to me, do not forget @worldly nebula and all others. We are a team even if it's mostly me who post the news 😃
pseudo grove
For reference, the same way I say MoSh for Master of Shadows to avoid any confusion with MoS that is Master of Subtlety, I'll use in the future DSh for Dark Shadow to avoid any confusion with DS that is Deeper Stratagem.
pseudo grove
Outlaw sheet has been updated, see why the dps went up : https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/issues/20
#Oversight or #Bug ? 😛
pseudo grove
^
As you can see, we enabled the notifications about the whole hub in this channel.
So, whenever an update happens, you'll get the notification here.
You'll also see whenever an event occurs on the dashboard or a tool we use.
worldly nebula
If, like above, it says ravenholdt-tc.github.io, that means there was an update to the website that you can check out.
pseudo grove
Resources Website: http://tc.ravenholdt.net/
Dashboard: https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/projects/1
Issues: https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/issues
Organization link: https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC
pseudo grove
^
I recommend you to not use WM at all with DfA, in case you were using it 😉
pseudo grove
Interesting fact, if you hit 20 or more targets with your DfA while having Weaponmaster talented, the Eviscerate will fail 75% of the time 👌 🍝
gentle ravineBOT
Description:
Nightstalker snapshots Nightblade with Vanish/Shadow Dance/Stealt.
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
In case you missed it, CoF shouldn't be nerfed before Argus. It means that as Subtlety, you want the Legendary Bracers and Soul Shadows relics. (CoF is what makes those two really strong, especially since the rotation is now more based around backstab than shadowstrike)
For Outlaw, it remains a really strong trinkets due to the CDR synergy with AR. (The more you have AR, the more you'll have AR basically)
As assassination, you'll probably swap it with ToS trinkets considering it is not that strong (due to a low rppm) and the ilvl difference will matter.
On a side note, remember that we do often update our new theorycrafting hub. The resource website will be a bit tweaked to make the navigation smoother by the way.
Finally, everyone can contribute to the project (especially bugs reports that help both devs and tcers), so feel free to ask/comments/contribute.
PS: Thanks Seph_WoW for the greeting, always a pleasure to see that Blizzard notices our hard work 😃
pseudo grove
The fact that the haste doesn't affect our bleeds (i.e. every DoTs, yes Nightblade is a bleed despite being shown as shadow damage) tick rate (haste reduces the time between two ticks for almost every dots in the game except the one flagged as "bleed") is now "a known issue" by Blizzard.
Maybe the Haste value will rise for both specs in the future ! 😃 (Likely next expansion tho)
It also means that Alacrity will need some adjustements if it ever happens.
pseudo grove
Considering I've been DMed a lot for the source about the hasted/non-hasted bleed from Blizzard, here is the permalink from the AMA: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/6j2wwk/wow_class_design_ama_june_2017/djbgcj7/
And the image below:
pseudo grove
^
As you can see, I've made a change to help if you get a 404 error (happens if you're using the page direct link which you shouldn't here since they aren't permalink), it'll redirect you to the homepage (or at least give a link to it).
Also, I've added the T20H trinkets and updated all trinkets sims.
Relics has been updated yesterday and I'll update the combinator for both T19 and T20 during the week-end.
stuck sapphire
DFA apl progress:
note: it doesent seem to be a win if you dont use t20 4p.
"Rogue_Subtlety_Dark_T20M" profile.
pseudo grove
^
T20 Combinator has been added, T19M has been updated. It might help you for your tiers choices. 😄
On a side note, @worldly nebula reworked the home page and added a nav bar. Hope you like it 😉
In case you lost the resources website url, check the #tc-updates pins.
pseudo grove
I've found the issue with the T20 table sheet showing T19M results, will fix it 😛
pseudo grove
^
Should be good for T20 now 😃
pseudo grove
And for T19 aswell !
worldly nebula
^ Enabled a dark version of the Website. It is marked as BETA because the General results table still needs a rework. You can switch between themes at the bottom right.
pseudo grove
^
Should have reported this bug long time ago, now it's done.
By the way, the total execute time of DfA is 1.5s and not anymore 1.3s (in fact, it's more around 1.475s), I'll change it in SimC.
New APL is on the way aswell 😃
frozen brook
so if the 'bug' is fixed, dfa->shd(evis) no longer possible?
pseudo grove
yes
white trail
it looks like bug but it's up to Blizz as always
they might not fix it for whole Legion
stuck sapphire
its not intended, thats why it can be seen as bug, neverless it has intressting gameplay while not hurting the balance enviroment.
pseudo grove
DfA APL is on the way guys
PS: the T19 4PC is with T20 4PC, i.e. not doable in game, so ignore the T19 results. It was just to double check there is no counter-intuitive things done in regards to previous tier 😃
credits to @stuck sapphire for his hard work btw (I mainly tweaked / refactored it)
now, be prepared for the Blizzard hotfix 😛
pseudo grove
Gonna update the website results in some hours 😃
pseudo grove
And you can try it yourself using raidbots nightly 😃 (it's updated)
pseudo grove
^
Combinator aswell has been updated.
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
Considering it's not only Subtlety, I'll post here aswell (just pinned something in regards to Vanish DfA in #subtlety).
Unbreakable Vanish is gonna be implemented in SimC really soon considering Blizzard does not "fix it".
fair crystal
what's teh flag to make simc spit out a list of bonus IDs again?
pseudo grove
show_bonus_ids=1
something along that @fair crystal
I made a .bat in the script folder IIRC
gentle ravineBOT
SimC is having Poison Bomb tick on-hit - making it tick 7 times per proc.
It only ticks 6 times per proc in-game because it doesn't tick on-hit.
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
I didn't expected that now...
Will add in SimC tonight if Mystler doesn't do it until then.
pseudo grove
Guess how many k dmg we loose with bracers + mantle combo 😃
To be honest, it wasn't the thing that made Sub really good and I'm quite surprised there is no compensation for this.
Blizzard, what makes Bracers OP is CoF + Shuriken's passive (both combo and built-in cp per target), not the bracers itself.
About Mantle, what makes it OP is mostly the bugs that affects it, so I guess it's a way to circumvent it since it looks like the bug is not easy to fix. Altough, it got side effects especially for Outlaw.
Changes are in SimC:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/5204a029ec0f1df8c39ddfcc437baabd186383d3
Quick sims:
Will update Combinator today, so you'll be able to see what will looks good. I think some subsets need adjustements (like non Bracers combinations might not need CoF in fact)
Will update others specs after Sub tho.
pseudo grove
I made a separate page for Hotfix data, so you can compare them easily 😃
pseudo grove
Btw, the reasoning behind the CoF nerf delay (to 7.3+) was to prevent nerfing an item because it makes the player having a bad feeling about analready looted item. But these legendaries nerf are the same thing.
Imo, a CoF nerf or even a Shuriken Combo nerf (or both) would have been 150 times better.
It is what the community asks since 7.2.5 PTR, I guess it's too late now, but Blizzard, it looks like you messed up here :/
novel mantle
When simming the mantle nerf for Assassination it comes out at around 1% nerf.
I'm not sure why Blizzard felt the need to nerf assassination too, but either way, it's nothing major.
The "biggest" downside for it, is probably if you get a PB proc when coming out of stealth, the last tick will not be a guranteed crit (PB ticks 6 times)
In terms of Rotation / BiS legendaries, there is no noticibale difference with this build: MA / Subterfuge / Vigor / Toxic Blade
most combinations are still pretty equal, except wrist/boots, which lags behind (note: with 3MA relics, boots/wrist have slightly better results, but only by about 5k)
dusky jewel
with t19 how is wrist/boots?
pseudo grove
^
This is the kind of things we hoped when we did this, glad it's working well.
We are a community after all, and everything here is open to anyone. 😃
chrome sun
❤ ^^^
novel mantle
Tested out a few rotational changes for Assassination with Swol, concerning the use of Garrote.
Theory: Use Garrote at 3-4CP with T20, regardless of remaining time.
Pros:
- Higher Envenom Uptime / more Envenoms in general (also likely more Poison Bombs)
- More envenoms during Toxic Blade
- Less energy pooling management
Cons: - Less mutilate Damage
- Less Deadly Poison Applications due to less mutilate
- Lower average Envenom damage.
Result:
We found that refreshing at 3CPs was a dps decrease, while refreshing only at 4CP either did not change DPS at all, or gave a slight increase.
Furtheremore, the AMR APL used to override subterfuge empowered garrotes (mid-fight). With T19, this had no affect on DPS.
But with T20, not overriding them and letting them drop completly, is a DPS increase.
(3-4 CP Garrote with Deeper Stratagem is acctualy 4-5CP)
worldly nebula
Okay, I have implemented all of the current PTR Tier 21 set bonus iterations in simc. When the next nightly or Raidbots nightly comes out, you should be able to play with it.
gentle ravineBOT
Having an other case of this bug right there, whitch happend 2 times in total in raid.
pseudo grove
Some interesting results 😃
pseudo grove
We're still double checking them tho 😃
pseudo grove
Shuriken Combo is working from Shuriken Storm in ST which shouldn't be the case, hence that's one of the reason Cloak appears that high for Subtlety.
fair crystal
interesting to see that swap around of the assn legendaries
worldly nebula
Pushed a fix for Shuriken Combo, the impact is not big though, Cloak still simming high.
pseudo grove
It's a combination of hotfix + simc bugfix + apl update I guess
fair crystal
http://tc.ravenholdt.net/relics/rogue_assassination_t20h_1t.html <- where'd master assn relic #2 go?
worldly nebula
lost in the nether
since a recent apl change, 2 relics do not sim higher than 1, hasn't been fixed yet
fair crystal
interesting
pseudo grove
We are currently refactoring the workflow of the results seen on the website, idea is to have a lot of combinations while still doing them in a short amount of time.
i.e.: Adding more fight styles aswell as more relics/trinkets chart for different "gamechanging" legendaries/talents combo (you can already see that there are Exsg/TB, SnD/RtB and MfD/DfA).
Also, we'll have to handle the 7.3 new relic feature (netherlight crucible).
It's possible that some data looks weird until we're done with the refactoring.
Anyway, do not hesitate to report what looks like "suspiscious" to you, we might have missed it 😃
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
fair crystal
is the second MA relic for assn still busted?
worldly nebula
unfortunately, yes
fair crystal
@worldly nebula well shit 😛
stuck geode
@next burrow
gentle ravineBOT
It seems to be fixed in 7.3, thanks Blizzard 👍
Fixed in simc in https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/9271773fb21b62b895b8de9bbdc394229e28cb99 aswell.
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
It is now all updated, sorry for the lack of updates during the last month, but Mystler and me are both EU guys and we were both in vacations / not available the last weeks 😃 😃
We'll eventually refactor the way some things are displayed, still iterating on a good way to show datas.
fair crystal
Any luck fixing that second MA trait for assassination?
worldly nebula
thanks for the reminder
fair crystal
i think that @chrome sun was looking into it from the simc code side, not sure what progress he's made
pseudo grove
@fair crystal done, see the comment above 😃
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
NC Hotfix is in simc and raidbots nightly, tc hub is currently being updated.
gentle ravineBOT
Improvements for Exanguinate:
Changes in Opener mainly
credits to Infexious#0005APL diff: changes
simulation
simulation result(base profile): report
with custom gear:
plush relic
Any updates on MA relics?
worldly nebula
it is an interesting issue with mantle/vanish+subtefuge for the typical Poison build
tried some tests with modifying the vanish condition but, so far, it always resulted in 1 MA > 2 MA or 1 MA simply falling below 2 MA at the same value
if someone with more time and dedication towards assa wants to play with it and send in APL suggestions that would be appreciated 😄
worldly nebula
ok, since the data is going around anyway, the first set of T21 results is now live on the TC site 😄
we have more updates to the site in the pipeline, but you can browse some early T21 sims now
keep in mind that there will certainly be further optimizations or changes and that those results may be different for your own gear
plush relic
👌
pseudo grove
Next time I'll wait before pushing the raw data 😛
There will be new datas in the next week, those were the primarly results 😃 (for example, Assa T21 doesn't require much APL work while the Subtlety one can be a little bit improved)
Finally, keep in mind that the raid is not yet announced and even when it'll be, there might be some balance changes (highly probable for Outlaw) during the heroic week.
The thing to keep in mind is on a Patchwerk fight Subtlety >= Assassination, but do remember that not every fights are Patchwerk!
Relics & Trinkets will follow the next update.
gentle ravineBOT
Description:
The trinket is not used correctly in simC as it's only used during shadowblades/vendetta.
Details:
It should be used on cd for assassination, during shadow dance so after dfa combo for subtlety and during curse of the dreadblades/vanish for outlaw.
Howto:
`use_item,name=void_stalkers_contract,if=(buff.shadow_dance.up...
pseudo grove
In case you missed it, fresh from Blizzcon
Will be available on simc once blizz update their beta cdn 😛
Master Assassin is mantle but with 50% effect
CT is like WoD one
Venom Rush is now tied to mutilate (and no longer bleed ticks) on poisoned targets
novel mantle
@pseudo grove not quite mantle, it's only 3 seconds instead of 5
I wonder if that'll actually be better than subterfuge and nightstalker or not
pseudo grove
50% of 100% crit AND 5 (formerly 6s) does 50% crit and 2.5 (ie 3s). Why my description isn't accurate ? It's 50% of the current mantle effect
Although of course it doesn't means it's dps contribution is 50% of what it is right now
Alpha and beta phase doesn't care about the numbers except if it changes the gameplay
We are far from any final numbers, idea was to say "they put mantle as talent but not fully, the intent is to make it less powerful so they cut everything by 50%"
And this apply for all the upcoming discussions there will be around BfA
novel mantle
I meant... It's not quite as good
pseudo grove
We'll see later how we do introduce it into RH btw, but I guess there will be a theorycrafting-bfa channel where there will be public things discussed.
Yes but I didn't say so ;)
Nor I said energy refund from VR is meh (5 energy per mutilate)
They somehow changed it to bleeds ticks like on live somehow after that
At least on tooltip. But considering there would be discussion about those things I thought it would be cool to do a small TL;DR in the channel :)
pseudo grove
Quite a big update on those commits, we are now able to generate more detailed results page automatically!
We are still early in the development tho.
I updated relics & trinkets. I'm going to resim every profiles during the next days.
plush relic
Quite surprised about difference between simulationcraft.org sims results compared to Ravenholdt sims for Outlaw
pseudo grove
What do you mean ?
plush relic
Im guessing something went wrong with combinator? Quite a noticeable difference, around 200k
pseudo grove
A lot of things changed in the last few days in regards to profiles, both in simc itself and in our tool. :)
That's why I said I'm going to resim everything during the next days
plush relic
😃
worldly nebula
there's another reason for the difference which i am gonna explain in a TC blogpost sometime soon
the simc default profiles are better optimized atm if compared to our script that runs all possible combinations at the cost of less optimization
plush relic
Yeah I figured something like that happened
worldly nebula
this is why you can see Exsg and TB build very close in the default profiles
but not that close in combinator
we also have plans on how to address that, so stay tuned 😉
plush relic
👌
pseudo grove
;)
worldly nebula
plush relic
Is it accurate to sim multiple MA relics with simC now or is it still bugged? Wonder if I should use AMR instead for the time being..
pseudo grove
Exsang first hype 😛
worldly nebula
haha, looks like my gear override change has a noticeable effect
pseudo grove
I've seen a lot of questions regarding the T21 setups and the legendaries associated, I'll make a blog post on our website about it (I just explained it in french for mates) so I hope you better understand what's going on with T21.
Do remember that wearing 6 pieces (2p + 4p + 2p) do exclude mantle & hands, that's why Soul & Insignia come up as best replacement along with Bracers & Boots (I do ignore on purpose the belt because it doesn't suit to me the progress, especially if you got a lot of bursty classes like we should get in T21 raids with DH & Warriors) 😃
Also, keep in mind it's Single Target simulations, with multiple targets and the usage of Shuriken Storm bracers are naturally stronger !
The likely combo we'll see is double ring swapped to Soul & Bracers on bosses where we do use Shuriken Storm, like it's already the case with Mantle/Hands switched to Mantle/Bracers (or even Soul) on bosses where we do use Shuriken Storm in ToS (Mistress, Desolate, Harjatan, Avatar, ...)
There will be multi targets sims once our new setup will be ready (software is, hardware isn't), ETA should be ~10 days but can't promise anything.
Finally, it all depends on your own gear, this is just a baseline to give you ideas, but do remember that wf/tf/sockets can skrew all this. It's important to sim yourself to figure what's the best combo in your context (both your gear and the kind of boss you're looking for, i.e. duration & # of targets)
And also, Blizzard balance, an hotfix can change all this 😄
pseudo grove
You'll see some tiers changes soonTM
They have been pushed on live mins ago
TL;DR is sub nerf, sin/outlaw buff
Gloomblade build will likely take a hit
Also, we spotted a bug in SimC, so numbers wise you'll see that DfA build numbers went up by 30-50k
Should be on wowhead someday
Or you can compare it in-game
There are notes :)
plush relic
Outlaw :)
pseudo grove
In case you didn't see the results that are "leaked" here and here, TL;DR is:
- Not a big change for assa (not a up, not a nerf)
- A small buff for outlaw (~60k in T21 gear)
- A small nerf for subtlety (~30k in T21 gear)
Although, things have to be adjusted, it's likely that the T21 4pc will be avoided for subtlety in flavor of T20 2pc + T21 2pc + mantle/hands if u get some wf/tf, ...
To be determined!
Stay tuned 😃
novel mantle
Intrested in seeing EP/Vigor/TB build for assassination with around 30% crit and high mastery.
pseudo grove
One final thing, raidbots will include all the changes in less than 30mins :)
stuck sapphire
To not cause confusion, the t21 simulations marked with the update date of Nov 20 include the changes to the tier set.
pseudo grove
Btw, we are going to add pantheon empowerement effect into trinket charts.
Although for relic & combinator, pantheon effect will be disabled (or rather, not enabled).
Do remember that as far as we know, it doesn't work outside of Antorus, so it's kinda specific. We still want to show the value it gives.
Finally there are DR on the number of wearer, i.e. having 15 vs 18 wearers doesn't make a sensible difference.
4 2.3
5 6.1
6 10.3
7 14.1
8 17.6
9 20.5
10 22.8
11 24.8
12 26.4
13 27.6
14 28.7
15 29.5
16 30.2
17 30.6
18 31.1
19 31.3
20 31.6```
Datas thanks to @late delta 😉
pseudo grove
pseudo grove
So, restarting everything. Expect T21 combinator & relics+trinkets update (including pantheon stuff) in ~24hrs or so
worldly nebula
Updated the Filters for the combination tables. This allows you to select your pool of legendaries now.
gentle ravineBOT
white trail
Some #outlaw residents probably know about magical 25% haste number. I tried to get to the bottom of it and it's not really related to the spec, it's crucible trait Torment the Weak. TtW, for some reason, does not act like usual magical DoT and it's total time changes according to formula tick_time * round( 15/tick_time ). Since it's just math rounding round( 7.5 ) = 8 and thus duration of the DoT can be increased by 1 second with a certain amount of haste. 25% Haste with alacrit is exactly that because in that case tick_time = 3/( 1.2 * 1.25 ) = 2 and duration of the DoT becomes 2 * 8 = 16 seconds. So if we keep our default profile and do stat scaling plot we will see this picture https://i.imgur.com/8VNKF8u.png , but if we change trait to another one it would look like that https://i.imgur.com/RWKrgm0.png
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
worldly nebula
After a Subtlety APL update (thanks to @stuck sapphire), I have updated the simc default profile to use Mantle/Hands and stored the "Lord of the Rings" build in a separate gear variation profile for our website. This means that with our next relic/trinket update, you will be able to see the results for both setups.
pseudo grove
And that you'll be able to see the changes tomorrow 😃 😃
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
^
As it is indicated above, the RH TC website is now part of Hero Damage.
I'll make an announcement about this once I'll publish the post-hotfix datas, but for now you can already browse it for rogues and others classes. (Relics & Trinkets were updated today, combinator is 1d-2w old)
It is still in beta and some things needs to be polished.
https://www.herodamage.com/ is now the new simulation results home. You can still access it through http://tc.ravenholdt.net/ of course (it'll directly redirect to the rogue section).
pseudo grove
Btw, hotfix gave 10k - 50k dps increase depending on the spec/talents. Nothing "big" but still welcome.
There are still things that will probably be adjusted (both by Blizz and us on our tools). So in conclusion, we are a bit better but not OP.
I guess once mythic will be released there might be another hotfix to adjust things if we are really in a bad shape.
Finally, Golga pantheon trinket will likely change also, it still double dip on atk speed. Blizzard is known to nerf/change double dip mechanic.
pseudo grove
TFW when ur sims are done and there is a new hotfix 🤣
Waiting simc hotfix to update it again, will only do "top builds" in the first time tho
Will still push combinator tho labeled as 4 Dec update.
CoF nerf will probably change some things for Outlaw
SimC hotfix is coming, raidbots will be updated shortly after that if you need it.
pseudo grove
Raidbots is fully updated 😃
pseudo grove
T21 Trinkets are updated for top build (tb, rtb, dfa). You can find hunter / mage / balance updated ones aswell 😃
pseudo grove
All T21 Trinkets & Relics (every specs of every classes including exsg, snd, mfd for rogue) are updated.
Be sure to see "Dec 5" as update date, if you don't see it do ctrl+f5 (or ctrl+shift+r) to for ce a refresh without your cache.
pseudo grove
Everything but T19 & Combinator should be updated
pseudo grove
Rogue & DK T21 combinators updated 😃
If you see "Bantle" in the combinator, do a ctrl+f5 or ctrl+shift+r to clear your cache. There were a typo in the first combinator update (I hotfixed it few mins later but you might have the first version cached)
pseudo grove
Most didn't saw it since I hotfixed it pretty quickly 😛
pseudo grove
Gonna run the rest of the combinator later. I feel like tuning isn't finished (at least I hope :D) tho.
On a side note, I fixed assa exsang combinator result and I should have the new sim worker in 1-2day which will be 4-5x faster than the current one.
stuck sapphire
We recently changed sub apl, here is a quick update:
TL;DR:
t21 -> don't use low cp evis during symbols when shadow gesture is up (added 6 days ago to simc)
sht -> only wait for sht proc if shb is not up (added yesterday to simc)
nightblade -> refresh nb with low cp pre symbols (additional to the current rules, added today)
sims: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/317311523196370954/389564522911760396/image.png
pseudo grove
Updated several melee T21H combinator including rogue with bleed/poison variation for Assa & snd/rtb variation for Outlaw. 😃
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
Thanks to @half wasp finding, it seems that Fan of Knives is now a better builder than Mutilate once you get enough Mastery (I would say past 200% from the early maths with a T21 gear but it really depends on ur gear level).
We are still at the beginning of the finding, more will come in the next days but the interaction comes from the fact that Poison Knives and Mastery have a good synergy. If you have a lot of crit (since it's a viable alternative for poison build with 4pc) or if you don't have an high enough item level overall it might not be worth.
We're trying to find a simple way for you to try it on SimC/Raidbots to see if it's worth or not.
Enjoy FoKing in ST =)
Potential fixes from Blizzard would be a Mutilate energy reduction (or damage buff) resulting in an overall buff, or a poison knives nerf with a % aura dmg compensation.
We are also look into a way to present the data for this build (which some of you will probably call it meme!) on Hero Damage.
Edited previous message to give credits to the proper person. Thanks Weak & Notter for the mention thus making the information more public.
pseudo grove
In case you're wondering, T21 4pc doesn't proc on Poison Knives. And the current SimC implementation seems to be okay in regards to what happens in game.
worldly nebula
I'll see about adding a FoK variation to the relic sims on Hero Damage soon.
For an early test you can copy and paste this after your /simc export on SimC or Raidbots Advanced. https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/fokstring.html
pseudo grove
Also, do remember that having bracers emphasize this effect or rather not having them decreases Poison Knives power
worldly nebula
Okay, special Relic sims for FoK build are now available on https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Combinations will follow
Keep in mind that this is likely to get hotfixed, so if you happen to have Poison Knives relics this is your day. Otherwise, i'd be careful with changing gear too much.
pseudo grove
I approve. I hope Blizz will rather buff mutilate but nothing is set in stone.
pseudo grove
If anyone did extensive tests on DP & PK interaction with player & target multiple, please DM me (or any TCer). We're facing issues trying to reproduce consistent results. (So the modelisation in SimC might be wrong or rather not totally right)
pseudo grove
You can now use fok_rotation=1 under any rogue= (or copy=) rogue actor to make your tests without messing with the APL.
We are also trying to find/fix bugs related to DP & PK since things looks messy right now (both in game and in simc). We'll let you know once we does know more. If any of you did some extensive research on this field (how blizz server computes DP dmg on refresh), let us know.
Raidbots should be updated with the option soonTM.
worldly nebula
Latest Raidbots nightly has some changes to Poison Knives and the fok_rotation option available. That means you can set the option to make the default APL use FoK instead of Mutilate. For a quick comparison with that option, the huge copy block simply becomes copy=FoK fok_rotation=1
pseudo grove
Re-updating Relics & Combinator with latest changes. Will look into adding a FoK variations for trinket
Will prob add one in SimC aswell
Like the Exsg/DfA/SnD/...
pseudo grove
FoK Combinator & Relics updated 😃
pseudo grove
Pushed more FoK sims (trinkets/relics). Available at https://www.herodamage.com/, refresh the page if you don't see them 😃
worldly nebula
After some checks it looks like the best rule of thumb seems to be:
- With Bracers use FoK below 30% health
- If you have 5+ Poison Knives traits, always use FoK
I have modified thefok_rotationoption for simc accordingly. So without the option simulation will do the "usual" Muti rotation; and with it will FoK <30% below 5 and always with 5+ PK.
That update should roll out to raidbots with the next nightly.
pseudo grove
Changed a little bit how styles are loaded on HeroDamage, if you see weird things please do refresh your page (likely your cache being too old) 😃
Also all relics has been updated and trinkets will follow.
pseudo grove
X-Post from SMM #herodamage:
The last few days we've been working hard on changing our workflow to let us more possibilities for Hero Damage.
We are now able to fully use Ruby and NodeJS in our workflow, the website remains static although (Jekyll).
The last 100 changes on the repository were dedicated to this new workflow aswell better performances : we reduced the bandwidth usage by 600% and increased the page load speed by 50%.
We can now focus on expanding the available features, 2018 will open up new opportunities, stay tuned !
Oh btw, every Trinkets & Relics are updated. 😃 (Combinator will follow)
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
Besides those bugs finding (the DP one explains why it was so hard to compute properly PK dmg and also explains what the 🍝 looks like), we introduced % DPS Gain metric on Relics Charts.
This let you compare more effectively across specs (or class if you're in concurrence for a relic let's say!) what the gain would be.
We also greyed out those bars since there were no point to color them (preview below)
pseudo grove
Introducing some 
I implemented the DP/Nighstalker bug into SimC.
I made a page about it on Hero Damage where I give the code (FoK alike) to paste to sim it for yourself. It is not available on Raidbots yet tho.
I also included two pics to show how big the impact of this bug is.
https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/dpgate
Enjoy our 🎄
I'm currently running new relics sim, expect some funny things 😃
pseudo grove
Will push relics sims tomorrow.
Updated the sims imgs from https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/dpgate , we are now officially both first and last on stacked charts 🤣 (You might see an older version if you visited the website recentyl so do ctrl+f5 to refresh it completely)
pseudo grove
Updated the sims imgs from https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/dpgate again with our DP/PK behavior updated in SimC (it should now 100% match what you see in-game except in open world where PK is totally ).
You should now do the FoK rotation if your DP is empowered by Nighstalker, no matter your PK relics or you legendaries.
I might implement a tracker for DP in AethysRotation so you might use it (or a WA that call its function) to know if you successfully "bugged" your DP.
I restarted FoK sims (relics & trinkets) aswell as others Assassination sims for HeroDamage. Gonna be out this afternon for one part, tonight/tomorrow for the other part.
pseudo grove
I've just updated Relics & Trinkets for all Assassination specs in T21 on Hero Damage, see https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/.
Considering the PK scaling with the current design of FoK and the DP/NS bug, PK relics are clearly out of control (at a point that a PK relic is worth more than 30 weapon ilevel, i.e. a 910 PK relic is better than most 985 other ones, it's so much that it's even breaking our charts !)
Do remember that the DP/NS interaction is a bug and it'll likely be hotfixed next week. Also do remember that the FoK/PK design is not intended and it will also likely be hotfixed since using our AoE builder in ST is clearly not intended.
pseudo grove
I guess you saw this tweet already: https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status/948326314699730945
It is likely that Mutilate will be buffed. PK/FoK interaction will probably not change since the issue here isn't those spells themselves (since we aren't really OP in most multiple targets encounters) but rather the lack of Mutilate damage (in fact, it's rather the fact that FoK got a double scaling thanks to PK while Muti got only one).
Again, as we said in the past, we do not recommend to all-in this build relic-wise. I do admit that the DP/NS bug make it very appealing right now but be aware that next week Mutilate will be a better alternative in ST.
pseudo grove
Since DPGate is almost over (NS/DP bug hotfixed), I'll remove it from SimC aswell as restarting relics charts.
pseudo grove
About Assassination changes:
Small gain in ST, small loss in AoE, muti used in ST.
More details tomorrow
chrome sun
Assassination
Mutilate damage increased by 20%.
Balanced Blades (Artifact trait) bonus increased to 4% per point (was 2% per point).
Poison Knives (Artifact trait) reduced to 3% per point (was 4% per point).
Deadly Poison triggered instant damage increased by 15%.
pseudo grove
If you want to sim until I push the hotfixes on simc
do
# Poison Knives (4)
override.spell_data=effect.282211.base_value=3
# Balanced Blades (2)
override.spell_data=effect.282142.base_value=4
# Deadly Poison Proc (0.221)
override.spell_data=effect.126788.ap_coefficient=0.25415
# Mutilate (360)
override.spell_data=effect.99543.base_value=432
override.spell_data=effect.99544.base_value=432```So, here are small "resulting changes", it all depends on your gear etc... but here are some numbre to give you an idea on how it affects us.
In ST:
-> +2.2% from FoK rotation (with optimized setup, i.e. 3 PK)
-> +5.1% from normal rotation
In AoE:
-> -1.7% with 0 PK
-> -5% with 3 Pk, so ~ -1% per PK
If you want my opinion, I think it's well done by Blizzard =)
Mitigating the AoE loss while re-adjusting PK is a though task, I tried myself on SimC and it's very hard to do that without overbuffing things or changing a lot of spells.
TL;DR: what I said before, Small gain in ST, small loss in AoE, muti used in ST.
As I just answered in #tc-research , those changes are intended to prevent any FoK usage even with 3 PK.
I forgot to say, but Balanced Blades will be the 3rd relic in ST 😃
More on HeroDamage tomorrow as it's late in EU now 😛
Nightly is updated on Raidbots 😃
novel mantle
Would be intresting to compare fok on 2 targets vs mut
rare swift
With the DP instant buff it should be worthwhile to FoK for poisons on 2T but I'll do some tests on the AoE/Cleave APL stuff tomorrow for sure
pseudo grove
This is what relics will looks like more or less
As I said earlier, updates tomorrow on HD 😃
pseudo grove
Hero Damage is updated https://www.herodamage.com/ 😃
There is an issue with PK on FoK relics chart it seems, will investigate. Can't right now, will do a bit later.
It's missing some Exsanguinate results aswell (forgot to queue them in), will post here once I'll have solved those two issues. Although it's week-end so it won't be solved in instantly.
pseudo grove
About the 2 MA situation, it's been months we are trying to find a gain, at least for the default profile, every TCer did tried (I did myself for one hour or so) and none of us found a reliable gain.
This is due to CD sync issue, there is just no gain to have it in this context. Also don't forget that MAlch works in AoE unlike MA :) :)
pseudo grove
Btw, looks like EU folks do still #FoK
novel mantle
Just to clear confusion, Assassination changes are live in EU since today (11/01) morning
And it's better to return to use Mutilate than the FoK rotation for ST.
It's still better to use FoK for 2+ targets.
worldly nebula
Just FYI for HeroDamage users: I added a vertical line to the charts and switched them to a % increase metric.
rare swift
(It's disabled now, presumably while Blizzard is trying to fix it)
pseudo grove
I have like 170 notifications
Oh ok ty
It is likely that if PK is disabled it's because the people handling PK is not here so someone at Blizz just shut it down for now.
Also it seems obvious why, Argus still in prog for a lot of people (aswell as many other things), having 2x the DPS on each Assa rogue is "a bit too much".
rare swift
Yes, it was pretty busted 😃
pseudo grove
So I've heard it's DP extended to the infinite causing that ?
rare swift
That's the theory, that it was extending in the background, or accumulating damage in the background indefinitely
Logs seem to support that notion, but there's not any good way to tell since the UI didn't indicate anything
pseudo grove
KB bug is back bois
The bug was that the "dmg debuff" was like 30s, so with the CDR on that you could extend it indefinitely. Although it was hidden so I guess that's why it wasn't noticed in QA and only players saw it.
On this one, I bet it's some sort of refactor between the previous hotfix and 7.3.5
novel mantle
Just to be clear, there is no bug with KB currently, I think Aethys was just comparing the situation.
In any case, PK trait for assassination is currently disabled as of writing.
pseudo grove
Yes there is no KB bug, but the root of the issue seems to be the same, hence my comment :)
#
pseudo grove
Should we temporarly modify PK on SimC ?
white trail
Don't think it's necessary to be honest
novel mantle
I don't think you should, people might choose incorrect gear choices based on the temporary change
if you make it default
outer rapids
Not that it matters anymore but for anyone that was curious the PK bug was every use of PK increased the damage of PK by (1+0.03*(# of PK traits))*0.35*(Attack Power) while DP is being refreshed. If the DP fell off then the damage was reset.
pseudo grove
Won't make an #announcements about this, but two of the theorycrafters (@worldly nebula & @rare swift) are invited by Bay for his Rogue Ketchup on FinalBossTV. @fair owl is the other one.
They'll talk about the rogue in general through the expansion (including from a TC PoV). Pretty sure there will be some talk about and how those things impact us daily =)
It's gonna start in some mins, there will be a VOD later on for those who will miss it.
https://www.twitch.tv/finalbosstv
pseudo grove
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1iJyEsGHmI for those who missed those juicy discussions 😃
I recommend you to watch it especially if you're concerned by bugs 😉
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
PK should be back :)
gentle ravineBOT
rare swift
Was doing some testing tonight and it appears that PK no longer calculates damage after Deadly Poison is applied/refreshed from Fan of Knives. This means the average damage of PK will be lower than before as it will use lower durations on average. Additionally, as a result, opening with FoK will not deal any PK damage.
gentle ravineBOT
rare swift
So, after noting some reports we investigated and due to how persistent multipliers work in SimC, the Kingsbane DoT component was being inadvertently buffed by Nightstalker even though it did not appear that it should. The bad news is that fixing this has made the previous opener change to open with Kingsbane not a gain. The "good" news is that the difference is fairly minimal, so nobody was destroying their DPS by doing this! (Thankfully!)
I am investigating tweaked openers now with local fixes for the issue and will post when I have run some more comprehensive tests.
rare swift
Back to this for now with an adjusted APL for the fixed SimC -- if anyone finds anything better, please feel free to DM me!
worldly nebula
Also, let me add short info on further research/changes from the last week:
- You may notice a slight loss of DPS in the latest Raidbots nightly for Assassination. This is likely due to a bugfix i made to Sinister Circulation which was triggering the cooldown reduction for KB a bit too often.
- As a follow up on the PK note from Koji further above, we have revisited it after the latest hotfix. Comparing it with logs from december, I do not think behavior has changed, but I adjusted the SimC model to better reflect what is happening in the game. Sim-DPS-wise this change should not really have much of an impact though. Here is a little graphic that should illustrate the interaction of FoK+PK and what happens in what order. SimC should represent that correctly now. https://puu.sh/z9mPI/586edda423.png
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
rare swift
As a quick note to anyone doing Assassination sims over the next few days. We have pushed a slightly restructured APL to help with future optimizations/maintaince. In theory, there should be no notable DPS changes from this. I have checked many different gear/spec combinations, but it is highly possible there are some edge cases where things were missed. If you noticed yourself simming dramatically lower, please ping me! Thanks!
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
gentle ravineBOT
pseudo grove
Race sims are now on HeroDamage.
Do remember that some of the passives are still WIP.
(Like VElf that seems to be bugged since it double dip on generic target modifier which shouldn't be the case since it means it double dip)
pseudo grove
As you may know, BfA Alpha is online since few hours. We are currently thinking about a good way to present you the changes from now to the expansion release.
We'll also change a little bit the organization of the theorycrafting part of the discord to fit our current usages 😃
pseudo grove
And just in case you're wondering, there will be a version of HD (HeroDamage) for the alpha. So you'll be able to see juicy sims of the azerite stuff.
pseudo grove
FYI, races/relics/trinkets have been updated with 1T/2T/3T fightstyle :)
worldly nebula
For the start of the new month, I have pushed an update with some news to the Hero Damage home page: https://www.herodamage.com
pseudo grove
Coming into BfA, this channel will purely be about "theorycrafting findings/updates" (like it is since months in fact).
Starting from now, only <@&226424944148480000> can post here .
Any research aswell as GitHub bot feed are now moved to #tc-research which is both about simulations and theorycrafting in general.
About Shadowcraft, it is still discussed in #226375547381350400 .
#tc-research is here for research only.
pseudo grove
There will be a PrePatch version of HeroDamage, Rogue will be the first updated of course.
More infos later this weekend :)
pseudo grove
HeroDamage update has started, it'll contains more and more simulations over the time.
https://www.herodamage.com/ <- Always up-to-date version (currently BfA PrePatch, will switch over BfA once it'll be released or close to)
https://bfa.herodamage.com/ <- BfA version (not available yet)
https://bfa-prepatch.herodamage.com/ <- BfA PrePatch version
https://legion.herodamage.com/ <- Legion version
pseudo grove
Pushed an update, expect an update each 12-24h.
worldly nebula
To give a separate update on the state of Rogue in SimulationCraft: We have been doing our best since Alpha launch to keep the Rogue module up-to-date. Generally, all BfA rogue changes and spec-specific Azerite traits are fully functional. The APL was cleaned up and designed with Battle for Azeroth and Level 120 in mind. This means that in prepatch sims, legendaries, sets, and on-use trinkets may not be used to maximum efficiency. If there are any isssues, feel free to shoot us a note.
I also did a cleanup pass on the Rogue dashboard on GitHub. For issues with our tools or if you find any Rogue bugs, feel free to submit an issue. https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/projects/1
pseudo grove
You should now find all sims (combinations, trinkets, races) for ST (1T), redoing another pass (or more) in ST then will do 2T, 3T and 1T+Adds once everything will be more stable on SimC end.
On a side note, there seems to be some "PvP nerf" that also affects PvE, looking into them to see if it's intended or not, if it is then we'll adjust the sims.
worldly nebula
Posting a quick PSA here: There seem to be a lot of silent nerfs/hotfixes going on atm. I'll try to update SimC as soon as possible, but the situation is a bit chaotic. Please be patient until sims represent these changes properly again.
pseudo grove
In addition to what Mystler just posted about Rogue situation, do keep in mind that Blizzard did also changed some global things, like the artifact weapon.
Raidbots is regurlarly updated so does HeroDamage although it takes few hours to regenerate everything and we are finding changes every hour. #patchday
Btw, I recommend you to use the simc addon rather than armory import.
pseudo grove
Here we go, a bunch of issues are fixed now on SimC which should now be live on Raidbots.
I've restarted every simulations for HD, should be pushed in 10hrs or so. 😃
pseudo grove
Update is out 😃
pseudo grove
https://bfa.herodamage.com/
It's still heavy WIP (like there is no navigation yet, you need to go back to the home) and despite a 'fr' button, most content isn't translated yet (only some part for rogue are).
It's missing a lot of data / features, but you can still find Azerite stuff + race & trinkets simmed daily for 4 fightstyles.
fair crystal
i like it 👍🏽
pseudo grove
HD has been updated with the most recent tuning pass (5 hotfix in one day!), I also added some features like tooltips or azerite tier colors and re-introduced back the metas informations (that says when the sim was done etc...).
Trinkets tooltip will be added a bit later, here is what you can expect:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387388474384187392/477433010803834880/unknown.png
This is still WIP, some features aren't in yet 😃
pseudo grove
I've added a bunch of QoL changes into HD lately, including improvements of the Combinator, see:
There were some hotfixes few hours ago, results will be updated again later this morning. (Last update was 8hrs ago or so)
Combinator is missing filters atm, will be added a bit later. On a side note I've changed both the size and position of ads to clutter less the screen. Some way to donate will be added, likely Paypal/Patreon. Keep in mind this is project done on our free time, any support is appreciable.
In the future, one of the goal is to let people generating those data with their own chars 😉
pseudo grove
I've added a way to filter Talents and/or Azerite Power, so you can now look exactly at the data you're looking for.
Either how Azerite Powers are looking for a specific build, or what kind of build is best with an Azerite Power (or even none) or a combination of both, it's up to you!
Available for all specs/fightstyles combinations ;)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387388474384187392/477972100351787025/unknown.png
Also, there has been a lot of changes on SimC today and it's still ongoing, I'll schedule a full update in 6hrs or so, will have new results in like ~12hrs from now.
pseudo grove
Darkmoon trinkets changes are on SimC, despite the 9% nerf on Fathoms' proc, it remains quite strong.
1T trinkets charts are updated on Hero Damage already 😃
On a side note, whenever you stealth while being out of combat, the buff is reset to A.
pseudo grove
Bunch of update regarding SimC / HD fixes & WoW hotfixes on HeroDamage. Only 1T for now, rest will follow later today.
Tonight & this week-end overall I'll work on some hot features 😉
Btw, they changed some things on Fathoms, let us know if you see something weird happening with it. 😃 (#tc-research)
worldly nebula
I also pushed a fix for Double Dose. That azerite power should perform much better in upcoming sims.
pseudo grove
It should be live now 😃
worldly nebula
Just pushed a fix for Snake Eyes to SimC. There was a bug causing it to lose the CP multiplier after the first stack was consumed. Should be in upcoming sims and Raidbots builds. That being said, I kinda wish people would be so eager to turn SimC upside down and find improvements for real builds and not just meme ones... 😛
pseudo grove
Hotfixes changes has arrived on HeroDamage 😃 1T only for now.
Enjoy your shapened blades time 😄
pseudo grove
Other fightstyles should be online 😃
rare swift
Some minor APL tweaks have gone up for Sub and Assassination.
One is to optimize for using Sharpened Blades within stealth/cooldowns for Sub now that it has been buffed. It is worth it to cast Shuriken Toss any time the buff reaches max stacks (Shadow Dance or not) and to hold for Shadow Dance if using Nightstalker/Dark Shadows when possible.
Other is that Garrote can be used multiple times in Subterfuge and still get the Shrouded Suffocation bonus. This means it's often a gain to Garrote twice in a row in ST for the 6 combo points and to extend the buffed Garrote to maximum duration. Could possibly get optimized further, but it's worth considering and was a direct gain for the opener and Vanish in the current APL with any number of traits.
pseudo grove
Updates with all the changes are online on HD :)
worldly nebula
Pushed a few APL improvements for special cases in some multitarget and add scenarios today. Should affect some sims with Blade Flurry, Marked for Death, and Night's Vengeance. Also Shadowstrike on three targets is worth being used if you do have three ranks of the Blade in the Shadows power and no Deeper Stratagem.
pseudo grove
AzeritePowerWeights Import String are now available on HeroDamage.
You can use both Stacks or Levels ones until the addon adds more ways to handle it (i.e. per iLevel and per Stack), for now it's computing the mean value.
See: https://wow.curseforge.com/projects/azeritepowerweights
rare swift
Pushed some Outlaw reroll changes to the APL based on testing and suggestions in the channel over the week. Current findings are:
- It's worth dropping Grand Melee out of consideration for rerolling with 2+ Deadshot ranks, and just look for 2+ rolls or Ruthless Precision
- With any number of Snake Eyes traits, it's worth rerolling anything that isn't a 2 buff, as long as you use up the Snake Eyes charges first
- With 3 Snake Eyes traits, it's worth rerolling anything that isn't a 5 buff, as long as you use up the Snake Eyes charges first
worldly nebula
Pushed a couple of Assassination APL improvements for Subterfuge and Shrouded Suffocation:
- Stack Vendetta with buffed Garrotes.
- Exsanguinate was stacked with the first vanish before and changed now. You end up with this opener: Gar, Rup, Gar, Ven, Mut, Rup, Exsg. Then you use the first Vanish for another buffed Garrote window once the first runs out (around 16s infight). After that you keep syncing Vanish with Exsg. The combination with the point above leads to a typical sequence of Vanish (at max cp), Rup, Gar, Gar, Vendetta, Exsg. This makes Exsg builds pretty competitive against Poison builds.
worldly nebula
Pushed another Subterfuge APL update that loosens mentioned sync of Vanish and Exsg again and prioritizes on just syncing Vendetta and Vanish for empowered Garrotes. Exsg around the 2:20 mark will still line up quite well, after that it does not have to. Also let empowered DoTs run off completely on ST. This change pushes Exsg ahead in the default profiles and should be available once Raidbots nightly updates.
worldly nebula
There have been hotfix changes to these Azerite powers. Next raidbots nightly and upcoming HeroDamage results should account for them soon.
- Night's Vengeance buffed by ~50%
- Blade in the Shadows nerfed by ~10%
- Ace Up Your Sleeve buffed by ~220%
pseudo grove
Hero Damage is now updated with the upcoming hotfixes, I added a warning message so it's clear those numbers are with the changes. https://www.herodamage.com/ (Refresh the page if the date isn't Sep 08)
On Raidbots, nightly got the hotfixes data, weekly doesn't BUT keep in mind when comparing Outlaw's azerite that it also includes the 5% (4.9% to be exact) nerf.
worldly nebula
Embrace the Snek: After the nerf to Deadshot, I updated the Outlaw default profiles to use 3x Snake Eyes. Be aware though that unless you have three of them a combination of other top traits is likely better.
pseudo grove
Combinations now does have 0/1/2/3 azerite stacks.
Also did some other little changes. Some fighstyles are missing for 1/2/3 stacks (namely 1TA & Dungeon) for today, will be part of today's update.
pseudo grove
X-Post from HD since you'll be a lot wondering what is this new hero dungeon fighstyle:
Today's HeroDamage update will feature a mini rework of the fighstyles available.
I've been working on what is in my opinion a good approach to Mythic+ sims with what SimC allows. Unfortunately, SimC doesn't have for the moment a simple way to chain multiple fights like we would do in-game (i.e. for rogue, that would mean having free usage of stealth between packs), this means that some things will be undervalued (example: Shrouded Suffocation since it works from stealth only).
I'll make a page on the website a bit later this week explaining how the fightstyle was designed and how you can use it for your character as well as its limits.
The main idea is to have 30-40% of the fight with a boss and then chaining (with potential small breaks between packs) trashes that could be either 4-6mobs for ~15s or 1~3mobs for ~30s (they won't all die at the exact same time, more details on this later). Total duration is ~6mins which corresponds to what most people do in average, i.e. ~20-28mins which corresponds to a +10 dungeon at this moment.
All raid debuffs are also disabled, raid buffs are enabled (so bloodlust is used on the boss and the passive buffs are there since you can have both from items).
In addition to this, the 1TA fightstyle (Raid Boss w/ Adds) will now spawn between 3 and 5 adds instead of previous fixed 4.
Usage of abilities that could reset (like MfD) multiple times per waves are supported on both 1TA & HD fighstyles. (Default SimC fightstyles presets like HecticAddCleave doesn't support it yet)
We are also working on neat features that should be ready by the end of September and a big surprise for October ;)
PS: Keep in mind that all data relies on what SimC offers, i.e. on the state of the spec/class on SimC. If an APL isn't well done, doesn't support a talent/azerite or AoE fights in general, then results will not be right 😉
As for the last paragraph, Rogue APLs are pretty good, there is not really much adjustments needed.
pseudo grove
Just a quick post since now the notes are out, the nerf on SS is unfortunate but was expected. 40% is a bit high, we would have preferred something more reasonable, around 20% but 🤷 .
Right now if you're Assa, you should rather aims at others azerite powers, namely DD/SoB depending on what you can have / what fights you consider (DD only works on mutilate so it's not that great in M+ while SoB is really good there for example). Also there are some situations were SS is still okkish.
Rogue overall remains competitive despite all the recent nerfs. 😃
Oh and SimC (and thus Raidbots & HeroDamage) will be updated whenever the maintenance will be done in NA, a bit more than 12hours from now.
pseudo grove
Oops, I didn't hit return button but HD update has been pushed few hours ago.
⚠ Only azerite charts contains the hotfixes ⚠ (For everyone on 1T, Rogues only and some others for 1TA & HD)
There is RA also 😃
pseudo grove
Pushed a new update to HD, this time everything contains the latest changes (and not only azerite charts).
I've also added two new features, the first one is there since some days already and it's talent display. The second one has just been added, it's gear display.
You can now check with what talents/gear each simulations were done.
(I'm aware some azerite tooltips might be wonky, it requires a fix on either SimC or either Wowhead, will look into fixing it later on).
Example: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387388474384187392/492031428079386634/unknown.png
Edit: I also split up Spec & Spec Variation for more clarity (we started to had a lot of them as rogue, so it now only shows the one for the current spec 😃 )
pseudo grove
Hello, x-post from HeroDamage channel:
Today's update will add in addition to usual data update:
- AzeriteForge Import String
- Azerite Gear tooltips bugfix
- A new feature for Azerite charts
Azerite charts now makes usage of Combinations results, this means that each class/spec specific azerite powers + "top" generic ones (Rezan's Fury, Tidal Surge, Dagger in the Back, Archive of the Titans, Laser Matrix) will be simmed with the top talents from combinations results if they are different than the default ones. Remember that there is a target error of 0.4% for Combinations, so it could pickup one talent that was slightly simmed higher but is very close to another.
This is a good addition for azerite powers that forces talents change and also to provide the best conditions for some powers in the AoE situations (default profile are mostly optimized for ST).
We might consider to expand such things for Trinkets & Races AoE sims (both Raid Boss w/ Adds & Hero Dungeon) in the future.
Stay tuned for more features 😉
Quick example that shows the new Azerite charts:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387388474384187392/493010275914743808/unknown.png
pseudo grove
Quick post about the notes:
- Sharpened Blades: Nerf is really big, guess finding an optimal rotation to play around it put it on the Blizzard's nerf radar... RIP, probably dead (stacking mechanic remains to be double checked).
- Poisoned Wire: To be seen but do not expect it to crush everything.
- Brigand's Blitz: Atrocious, haste DR was already hard at 3 stack, now it'll be at 2nd so don't hope it'll be a huge trait overall, especially since Outlaw got so many others big ones. If you only get one it'll be a bit better but keep in mind that stacking haste on top of haste isn't a big deal.
- Blade in the Shadows: Quite a nerf, gonna be a bit like SS, i.e. good in some situations (depends on the talents used).
- The First Dance: To be seen, should be renamed The Extra Dance since it's now 2 stacks 😄 Still suffer for the crit DR with multiple stacks although it's a bit better now.
pseudo grove
HeroDamage has been updated for 1T (Raid Boss / Single Target).
1TA (Raid Boss w/ Adds) and HD (Hero Dungeon / M+) will be updated later today. 😃
worldly nebula
A couple of people have been reporting issues with some multi-stack powers (Snake Eyes simming higher and Poisoned Wire lower). I pushed a fix that should now be live with the nightly version on Raidbots.
pseudo grove
I've seen this "issue" popping off a lot in #assassination and wants to clarify it.
Shrouded Suffocation was not further nerfed than what it was 11 days ago.
The default SimC profile changed from Subterfuge to Master Assassin, which made Shrouded Suffocation dropping by a lot on any Azerite chart that is not using a talent override or the exsanguinate profile.
Due to this (and also similar issues with other classes/specs like BM Hunter, Frost Mage, ...) we added talents overrides based on combinations sims in all HeroDamage Azerite chart (scroll up a bit if you want more details).
If you're looking at sims without that, then yes SS is at the end of the chart, but with a proper setup it'll show up (currently ranked #2 behind DD in pure ST)
Also, do remember (scroll up again if you want more details) that Hero Dungeon sims cannot re-stealth between each packs, which undervalue a lot the power of SS in M+ (and MA btw). This is a known limitation of SimC and cannot be fixed easily/quickly since it requires a lot of changes (the program was never made with these behaviors in mind).
Oh, and this is the same case for Blade in the Shadows for #subtlety 😃
worldly nebula
I've made some changes to Rogues in SimC that account for re-stealthing in certain simulations. With the next update, the HeroDungeon fightstyle should include those re-stealthes (partially random to factor in chain pulls, so it's not 100% stealth before every virtual trash pack). Shrouded Suffocation should benefit quite a bit from this.
rare swift
Ok, as per discussions in #assassination earlier, have updated the APL logic for multi-targets somewhat with regard to Mutilate and Fan of Knives usage.
General usage rules are now:
- Use Mutilate at 2 Targets always, swapping targets with Mutilate briefly if needed to reapply poisons to the second target (with or without Double Dose)
- Use Fan of Knives any time a target doesn't have Deadly Poison at 3 targets (or 3-4 with 2+ Ranks of Double Dose), otherwise use Mutilate on your primary target
- Use Fan of Knives spam at 4+ targets (or 5+ with 2+ Ranks of Double Dose)
worldly nebula
I updated the SimC APL for Subtlety to handle Tornado a bit better. It will now use Tornado and pop both Shadow Dance and Symbols of Death before the first Shuriken Storm comes in. Should you play with Shadow Focus for some reason, it is better to use SoD on cooldown before Tornado.
worldly nebula
I have slightly updated some TTD conditions in the SimC APLs that could have a negative effect for the Dungeon fightstyle used on HeroDamage. It should be live with the next nightly on Raidbots and may lead to some DPS increases in case you are using that fightstyle yourself.
worldly nebula
Also made a change to have SimC use all Subterfuge GCDs to apply Shrouded Suffocation Garrotes in Multi-Target scenarios.
worldly nebula
Zultlety Rogues listen up. We've often said that a 6T 4min sim is quite good to approximate Zul. However, even that comes with a few quirks and differences to the typical Zul playstyle (e.g. Night's Vengeance simming at more value than it "should" because it automatically causes multi-dotting). Since simulations for Zul come up a lot, I added a new priority rotation option to SimC today. This will ensure the APL will use a rotation tailored for priority damage. I have talked to seriallos and he has already updated the Raidbots nightly build and whitelisted that option. This means you can put priority_rotation=1 into the Custom APL box on Raidbots and use it on Top Gear, Gear Compare etc. Using this plus the usual 6T 4min sim, the results should match the demands of that fight much better. (Just don't forget to remove that option from the custom APL field again when running normal sims.)
worldly nebula
This weekend, I have been working on some updates to Dungeon-style simulations (affecting the DungeonSlice fightstyle / HeroDungeon on HeroDamage) that are now live with the Raidbots nightly build. To break down the gist of the changes:
- The invulnerable dummy target will now be fully ignored, meaning the APL will properly use ST rotation on the boss part and there will be no additional CP gains, dot ticks etc.
- On the trash part of the sim, Shadowmeld will allow restealthing as well for night elves to emulate that dropping combat in Dungeons.
If you are using that fight style in your own simulations (e.g. by settingfight_style=DungeonSlice) or going to look at upcoming data on HeroDamage, you may see some different results because of this.
worldly nebula
Just dropping a note here: Raidbots has added DungeonSlice as BETA to the fightstyle selection, so it is now available for Top Gear and the other modes.
worldly nebula
Happy Patchday! All Rogue implementations in SimC should be as up-to-date as possible (with the raidbots update coming later today), with the exception of Replicating Shadows which is currently buggy in the game (randomly refunding combo points and creating full Nightblades out of nowhere, as of latest PTR) and the implementation is based on the first working PTR iteration. I will update that as soon as the power is in a consistent and predictable state again.
Results on HeroDamage are now live and updated as well. The charts with talent override entries have been updated to display the difference to the changed talent set not the base profile, meaning you will now see only the trinket/azerite increase not including the gain from the talent change itself.
pseudo grove
There might be some issues today since there were a lot of changes (especially regarding azerite), we will do our best to fix everything :) Do not hesitate to report any issue you might encounter.
Oh and btw, only 1T is published atm. 1TA and HD are still being simmed.
worldly nebula
Nothing Personal (and Replicating Shadows) are currently shown at 0 value in the chart due to a change in data structure. Working on a fix as well.
pseudo grove
Other fightstyles are being deployed right now.
Some fixes are coming for tomorrow including traits that appears at very low value on the chart.
pseudo grove
I've restarted the sims due to new hotfixes data and fixes on SimC, I also removed PR since it was a bit pointless now.
Full update will be deployed in around 9-10hrs from now 😃
worldly nebula
Compiling hotfix information here (aside from those PvP coefficient changes from the bluepost):
(Updated 2018-12-12 18:23 CET/UTC+1)
- Vanish + Subterfuge should be fixed
- Echoing Blades proc damage has been quartered and set to always crit
pseudo grove
T23 along new stuff (including trinkets) are being currently deployed to Hero Damage :)
Some things might be missing (there were some errors on SimC) but they will be added (if fixed) by the next run.
worldly nebula
Pushed a little APL update for Sub based on research with @stuck sapphire. With Deeper Stratagem, The First Dance, and neither Dark Shadow nor Subterfuge, it is worth finishing only at 6 CP during Shadow Dance. This will lead to more situations with Shadowstrike as the second global / more Shadowstrikes in general. Increases seen were around 1%.
(Edited to include Subterfuge)
worldly nebula
The January 29 Hotfixes should now be available on both Raidbots nightly and weekly.
rare swift
Quick update--it was found that Master Assassin increases the Crit% for melee AAs, which SimC was not reflecting. This has been updated.
This is not a huge DPS increase for MA, but if Subterfuge vs. MA setups were very close for you, it may be worth resimming or keeping this in mind after tomorrow's nightly.
worldly nebula
I know Sub is not the hot shit, atm, but I also pushed a little update to its SimC priority rotation that can still be enabled with priority_rotation=1 (e.g. in the custom APL box on raidbots).
For maximum priority target damage, it is worth using Shadowstrike over Storm
- with Weaponmaster against up to 4 targets,
- if Find Weakness is running off (on any amount of targets), or
- to maximize Symbols of Death extension with Inevitability on 3 targets (4 with BitS).
worldly nebula
Quick FYI: Aside from the announced Adrenaline Rush change, from spell data it looks like the Replicating Shadows instant shadow damage part for Sub was stealth nerfed by 25%. I also see slight structural changes for Echoing Blades data, but don't believe those lead to a practical difference in how it works. If you see something odd though, feel free to report it.
rare swift
Looks like Replicating Shadows has been hotfixed back to the original value.
worldly nebula
I have pushed an APL improvement for Garrotes with Subterfuge and Shrouded Suffocation to SimC. Slight increases should be seen on any amount of targets once this is also available with the next raidbots nightly. It includes some technical changes that simply cause the APL to handle things a bit more logically, and a rework of the corresponding Vanish rule. Trying to sum up the gist of that here, for further notes see #tc-research:
Vanish with Subterfuge: (edited)
- Garrote ready and pandemic refreshable, enough space for incoming Garrote CP (up to deficit of 4)
- With Shrouded Suffocation:
- Ignore remaining duration for non SS-Garrotes, i.e. fire your 2nd and later Vanish away so you'll get the 30% bonus without having to cast another Garrote during Subterfuge.
- Up to 2 targets: Require one SS-Garrote to run off, and on 2T the other pandemic refreshable.
- 3-5 targets: Require all SS-Garrotes pandemic refreshable and refresh those.
- 6+ targets: Vanish to Garrote three non-SS enemies (and also use vendetta after applying vanish Garrotes in the opener).
worldly nebula
Pushed another update and edited the description above. Removed the EB exception on 2T since that only turned out a loss due to energy fallthrough which i had missed and now fixed.
rare swift
As per the hotfix yesterday, the FoK combo point bug has been fixed.
stuck sapphire
Mystler just pushed a APL update for Night's Vengeance.
It is a damage win to refresh NB with low cp short before symbols of death comes up on single target.
(only when the NV buff in not up)
worldly nebula
While 8.2 TC is still an ongoing process with further APL enhancements, more new item implementations, and Season 3 / T24 research to come, HeroDamage now has a first version of essence charts. It may be worth mentioning that Major essence sims include Minor+Major value, just like in the game. Also note that Essence damage is generally not affected by spec cooldowns as those are using whitelists and only buff your other abilities. Raidbots Top Gear should get essence support sometime soon too. https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
pseudo grove
In the upcoming HeroDamage update (I would say ~15mins from now) you'll be able to see the new trinkets as well as Azerite Essences tooltips. Race talents overrides are also displayed properly 😃
pseudo grove
Looks like Travis is on vacation, as soon as it can build you'll get the update :)
(There are issues on the service)
worldly nebula
The combination section on Hero Damage now also has essence combinations. (The way these are displayed and tooltipped is likely not final yet and subject to change.)
rare swift
At long last, I've had time to (mostly) fully investigate logic improvements to support priority_target=1 in the Assassination APL for those interested in Priority Target damage in AoE scenarios
These changes are in SimC now and will be in the next Raidbots nightly
The general notes about this are:
- Only any major gains at 4+ targets
- At 4+ targets, it is a priority target gain in general to avoid refreshing DoTs on secondary targets if you have 6 poisoned bleeds currently active
- It is also worth avoiding casting Garrote on secondary targets even below this bleed count if it will cause Garrote to fall off on the main target (due to cooldown)
- The rotation also primarily uses Mutilate as a generator instead of FoK, except when targets do not have poisons up (this is a major increase, and accounts for almost half of the gains, FoK damage is not good...)
Here's an example of the priority target increases against 5 targets (4 adds):
To use this in Raidbots, you will just need to add the Custom APL option: "priority_rotation=1"