creator_dlc_discussion

[hallow parrot]

Narrative as in 2035 friendly?

[somber ice]

Yes.

[hallow parrot]

Well the answer is easily no because Bohemian's decision's exception is very small

[somber ice]

Maybe, but even if there is a chance that it could change - I would still ask about it.
I also nearly thought about doing a petition or just a poll to see how many actually would be interested in paying maybe one, two, three euros more to enjoy them as normal DLCs.

I'd just think that it is slight wasted potential of non overhauling cDLCs that fit Arma 3 so well (and it's lore). I can understand the reasoning behind GM, S.O.G, CSLA, Spearhead - they all fundamentally change the game, being more like traditional expansions. But those cDLCs like WS or RF are expending it nicely and imo beg to be added to the game officially.

Some older arguments where that it would add to much GB, but I disagree, especially in the current age where Games tend to be much bigger with less content that Arma 3. And WS even isn't that big, just 4.82GB on Steam. Or that updating could be annoying or problematic - but that problem existed or still existis with regular smaller or even larger updates (Dev Branch is currently a 2.9 GB update).

[hallow parrot]

There is also a fact that you want to consider is, Vertexmacht ever told BI to add their German voice lines into base game - they said no

[somber ice]

It's a bit frustrating to hear that - would have made a really nice addtion to the game

[young geyser]

The community also said no to Refoger, so I guess they got a taste of their own medicine in the end... too bad to have that sort of stiff mentality, because Karma eventually catches up to you, no matter if you are a person or a company

[somber ice]

I feel like it is sometimes a bit of a self sabotage, especially for Arma 3 by the management (or whoever decides things like this)

[young geyser]

It truly is, the people who make the decisions are clearly too comfortable with just their current salaries and don't really care if A3 of the CLDCs get more sales or make their fanbase happier, they care about the end of the month and that is all. The saddest part is that the creators of the CDLCs do care about sales but they are at the mercy of tyrants, or perhaps worst than tyrants, becasuse tyrants at least care for something

[somber ice]

I wouldn't say they are tyrants, I would just say that they do not really think about it and just go with what they feel like might work better.

[young geyser]

When you base your responses on ambiguities or in decisions made years ago under completely different circumstances (CDLCs were truly big back then, and there wasn't a saturation and cannibalizations between CDLCs back then like it is now) and you are not able to hear your playerbase nor your own staff and specially when you make up stories that "changes cannot be made" just because you don't want to do the work it requires for the changes to happen does makes you look kinda like a tyrant doesn't it?

[somber ice]

I'd say more a bit Ignoret (there are good people behind it, but some desicision I cannot understand) in a few cases

[young geyser]

Still bad... perhaps worst. A "good" tyrant can at least get things done... it might not listen but he gets things done. An ignorant not only does not listen but also won't get anything done, not even the simplest change

[somber ice]

But I still believe in the possbility to see those changes. A good portion of the playerbase wants it - cDLCs could even bring in more addtions to Arma like what Polpox metioned with Vertexmacht.
Going to do a feedback ticket and see how it gets likely nowhere.

[young geyser]

Don't waste your time, not even the people being paid to "care" are caring and you want to do a feedback ticket, not even God is going to read it, just let it go and have a saying with your wallet

[somber ice]

I know that some will read it (likely not respond though) - and the latter won't work for a few reasons for me

But trying to gain more attraction with this doesn't hurt and can always persuade BI if they get a bit more pressured.

[young geyser]

Creative Assembly had the same issue of not hearing their fanbase, and they only listened and issued a public apology when their latest game flopped so hard that it only sold 4.000 copies over the previous worst performant title which sold like 12.000 copies. In the end they had to lower their latest game's price and issue public apologies but by that time the damage to the community's trust is mostly done and a lot harder to revert...

My point being that CA only listened when the fans talked with their wallets, not before, and perhaps the same desease is present here

The difference being that CA's main title (Total War) has no real competition, while Arma and other BI titles are not so lucky and competition might get fierce at any moment. It hasn't happen yet but if it does happen, can it be survivable? Or you have kept your fans so much in the dark that they will jump ship at first sight?

Time will tell

[devout turtle]

There are technical and legal and operational (staffing) reasons why the creator dlc pipeline is like it is. Using derogatory terms about BI creator dlc team members is in poor taste as they are governed by these limitations. We all had to accept them when signing up for the program. We may not like it, but there are no other options available. That doesn’t make the staff there mean or tyrannical or whatever other bad words you apply to them unfairly. They are doing their job. Game production pipelines are complex things. And expanding a 10 year old game with 9m owners is fraught with challenges to not break a mass of historic content. Caution and separation make total sense from a risk/ technical perspective.

My only criticism of the creator dlc project is that BI takes profit out before creator teams cover their expended costs. That seems unfair and shortsighted - and we were very vocal about this before signing the contract. As a result there is little incentive to make updates. We do it because we love what we do and the players love it and it helps sales, but our profit is far away while BI has earned huge profits.

It does not help incubate us into a strong studio for future partnership but again this was not BI’s vision. We earned some money and created a professional product and that was the limit of their vision for this project.

We are glad we had this opportunity to establish a team, and cheerfully working now on new projects that will be published in future with better terms/ initial investment.

It’s not Bohemia’s staff’s fault the terms are what they are, the initial vision was determined before any successes could be measured (although I would argue that we made Jets DLC with a strong brief and few bugs and high quality) and so caution was exercised in the scope of the project.

I don’t think many of the creator teams are happy with the basis of the contracts but it was the only opportunity we had to make our dreams come true. So we were resigned to the terms and got on with it.

Complaining about the vision and structure of the project is completely pointless for us. We need to learn from the experience and then move ahead on our journey, looking forward, not back.

[dull mauve]

Keep up the good work CDLC guys, please make the fire shoot back.

[tepid lance]

but it was the only opportunity we had to make our dreams come true.
💯
"Take it or leave it", fair enough.

[lime geyser]

Just like me there are lots of people on every platform (reddit,steam etc) asked why this vanilla lore based CDLC reaction forces is not a part of the base game? It doesn't have a big file size (4 gb is nothing these days, other games bring 10+ gb updates sometimes lol) I would prefer to use this small sized vanilla lore based assets in a non-modded server with other players instead of trying to find people who download from workshop.

For example if you check the most populated no mod required servers, there are hundreds of regulars and new players who don't like to download mods and play
popular missions such as koth,invade annex and much more, for example these players play with any other dlc assets because it's added to base game when it got released even if they don't buy it they see there is an vehicle standing when they try to take it they can't use because it requires purchasing a dlc so most of them go to store and buy the dlc and start using the asset. It's an huge profit for the bohemia every day, I just don't see any sense in letting this game die day by day with no new content updates, just take an example from other 10 year old successful trucking simulator game.

[lime geyser]

yes WS and RF are very nice expansions to vanilla lore, we don't ask to bring every god damn cdlc to base game.. Huge pottential buyer loss in my opinion.

[sweet edge]

you do realize that "successful trucking simulator game" has DLCs made by their own team, not 3rd party people right? Not to mention that they sell vehicle skins in price of a fully-fledged DLC and a single map costs the same as SOGPF. You all would be shitting blood if BI had to raise the prices all for the sake of not "letting this game die day by day"

Arma 3 is maintained by how many, 5 people? Maybe less if we check who is ordered to fix old stuff rather than add new.

[lime geyser]

yes I know, they also recruit modders into their dev studio day by day such as some big map mod developers.

[sweet edge]

also why would they delegate more people to A3 if you want A4 already?

[olive vortex]

so does BI, but these people are working on Enfusion, AR, A4

[hallow parrot]

Probably it is better to realize that how they do the CDLC pitch is well discussed in studio already and already and already

[ashen geyser]

All CDLCs sign in to the same contract Rob talked about. They can't be treated differently.

[sweet edge]

also that game dying day by day seems to be in a great condition even though last official DLC was published 5 years ago

[lime geyser]

well it's great if it's in great condition, then why no to content updates?

[sweet edge]

also they literally added new content last year with the futura tank and others.

[hallow parrot]

Also the game (more like the engine) is more than two decades old. The engine is pretty much facing its limitation

[lime geyser]

I'm not saying I know everything but I would make a contract with cldc studios to expand the base game lore, with low file size just like jets dlc.

[sweet edge]

that's why everyone was moved to work on Enfusion, Reforger and Arma 4. why is it so hard to understand?

[lime geyser]

no it's not hard, I do understand and appreciate their work on that next titles. I'm just a daily arma player who share his thoughts here and play on both sides of players with mods and without mods.

[sweet edge]

CDLC studios will not get the same permissions and treatment as normal BI employees, unless they are actually hired and paid money every month. BI would have to hire them and maintain few times bigger group to keep this stuff up to date.

[ashen geyser]

That means paying more people to work on A3. CDLC teams aren't paid, they receive a share of the sales, I'm sure BI doesn't want to pay them, or anymore people to work on a game that's EOL. In the gaming industry nowadays this game should be well dead and forgotten. We're lucky it's still somewhat maintained and there are still official servers.

[olive vortex]

Most of the A3 players seems to be closed communities anyway, and these do not care much if it's integrated or not.

You're beating the dead horse anyway, Rob said all that's to be said.

[sweet edge]

CDLC program was created exactly as a countermeasure for all the negative stuff coming with having to create your own DLCs and then spending a ton of money on maintaining it in-house. Jets DLC is nowhere to be compared to that, BI outsourced this to have the rotorlib or whatever working in the game

[olive vortex]

not exactly, Jets was a pilot for CDLC idea

which was refined after it.

[dull mauve]

Quick question, does this drama happen every time a CDLC drops?

[sweet edge]

yes

[olive vortex]

every time vanilla themed CDLC drops

[hallow parrot]

A2ACR actually is the first third-party DLC idea

[sweet edge]

wait until a CDLC helicopter has a "SS" designation and people start bashing devs for subliminal nazi propaganda (like it was before with Speerhead having Germans in blufor or CSLAs unfortunate helicopter number)

[slate rampart]

I want to be able to use these assets in Public Zeus

Like the other DLC

[ashen geyser]

Just appreciate CDLCs for what they are. They're professional work made by teams that otherwise most likely wouldn't be able to make them if not for the program.

[dull mauve]

CDLC for Arma 4 in 2035 having Russian combat ID marks from 2022

[sweet edge]

well I want Arma 3 to be running in 120 fps like any other shooter I have yet no one even thought of making a Framerate DLC, not to mention integrating it with the base game

[ashen geyser]

1. Screw pub Zeus, 2. You can, join the CDLC servers with your friends

[knotty ore]

You can if the server and players run the CDLC.

[fossil gazelle]

Actually those modders get rarely asked, but apply for job openings just like everyone else, they do have a "higher" succes rate for getting the certain job as their skills set and knowledge of the engine/game and have proven their skills within the community/Arma Franchise in the past.
I believe only on rare occasions they hire "externals" for certain tasks, if the task is done they job is over.

[steady ravine]

the biggest obstacle, need to be able to speak Czech and relocate there.

[olive vortex]

czech is not required. Relocation is usually wanted but they hire a little bit of remotes.

[karmic harness]

FYI:

Requirements
(...)
Good spoken and written English
https://careers.bohemia.net/position/engine-programmer-praguebrno (random job opening on their "Careers" page)

[steady ravine]

oh neat

[karmic harness]

Now go polish that CV of yours! 😂

[steady ravine]

if only there's a job opening as 'Target Audience'

[mortal seal]

How do Czech salaries and cost of living compare to western Europe and NA?

[sinful cape]

bad

[steady nest]

Allegedly this was a challenge for BI recruiting a decade ago, and why they were so selective about hiring remote

[zinc matrix]

What negatives would there be to have the DLC files included with the base game and loaded by default? Surely the CDLC still gets maintained, it would just be a matter of bundling files with the game rather than a separate download

WS and RF would fit very well in popular missions like warlords, but because they are opt in, I doubt there will ever be a populated public server running them.

[sweet edge]

that the Bohemia Interactive would have to maintain it rather than the original devs, which would also mean spending money on license and possibly having to hire more people to work on a game they literally want to leave in the past once Arma 4 comes out (just like it was with Arma 2)

[knotty ore]

Negatives in the way you think of it probably not much.

But it is not as simple as you think.

The deal between BI and cdlc maker would have to be renegotiated, money would likely need to exchange hands due to possible loss of sales due to content being integrated into main game

All in all. It's never as simple as people think it is.

[zinc matrix]

But apart from the agreement with creators there isn't much difference?

[sweet edge]

also using public servers as some leveraging argument is like saying BI is killing Arma 3 through removing support for 32bit version of the game in upcoming updates - has no sense and impact is minimal

[zinc matrix]

Minimal imapct? I think there are lots of people who have bought Apex or other DLCs because they can play with them on the servers they already play on

[knotty ore]

If nothing else it likely comes down to money

And it just won't happen

[sweet edge]

anecdotal evidence. There are people who bought the game but they can't play on 64bit because their rigs are more than 15 years old.

[knotty ore]

It's basically same type of question/idea that if everyone buys the CDLC and uses it then there is no problem in it since every community will be running it

[sweet edge]

not to mention that if these "lots of people" have been playing with content they are already given for past years it won't change with another CDLC being released

[knotty ore]

And that does not happen either and would still be more realistic

[zinc matrix]

What does 32-bit have to do with anything? Also 15 year old hardware can play 64-bit arma just fine...

[sweet edge]

because you seem to not understand that no is a no and it's a conscious decision from BI's side. Too many things to settle, too much money to spend on, too many people to have involved for a game that will be basically replaced in upcoming years. Thought that using a similar situation of BI's decision to cut off a certain minimal amount of players from content is necessary for their development plans would help visualising the problem and solution, but I guess it's hitting a wall

Arma 3 received the futura update last year bringing some of the cut dev branch content and Argo stuff. I can't fathom why is this being ignored by most of you. They are well able to include content in thhe base game if it is possible

[zinc matrix]

"a certain minimal amount of players" what are you basing this on?
Majority of the most popular servers are vanilla, I am sure if you checked the top n servers by players (right now or over time) you would find that the vast majority of players are on unmodded servers.

[sweet edge]

vast majority of the multiplayer playerbase plays on private servers within their units, they create the bigger chunk of stable number of ~10k players tormenting the old engine. Public server playerbase are mostly the every-month spikes that show up whenever Arma is on sale.

availability of CDLC "as a base game" won't change these numbers at all while it will be an inconvenience for the 5 or so people left maintaining the game. Hope that clarifies the subject

[zinc matrix]

But what inconvinience is there for the 5 people maintaing it?

It is just a matter of adding the PBOs to the package with the base game, the maintance work for keepign the DLC up to date would be the same regardless

[knotty ore]

It's won't work in the business model cdlcs are made in.

Now that should be enough of an answer

[zinc matrix]

I know, but Honger is referring to an inconviencen for the people maintaing the game, and I don't really see how downloading something by default changes much in that regard

[knotty ore]

Doesn't matter

[zinc matrix]

Cursiours to understand what he knows about making content for arma, that I seem to be missing

[ashen geyser]

I don't want CDLCs I don't own in my drive. Thank you

[serene breach]

Maintenance refers to QA, bug fixing, balance etc

[lime geyser]

• we ask something here to BI officals as players meanwhile a random dude with veteran role keeps answering and saying no

I would like to hear an answer from BI staff that it’s possible or why it would not work, if they notice people here in their free time thanks 🙏

[knotty ore]

they dont usually talk about company policy like that

its not a matter of discussion

[narrow cradle]

?? but you want the dlcs you don't own on your drive?

[ashen geyser]

I own all official DLCs

I don't own all CDLCs, and won't

Imagine 20 more (exageration, but endulge me) are released over the next 3 years

You'll end up with a 1TB SSD just for Arma CDLCs and mods

Even COD can't beat that

And before someone says "oh, but just the ones expanding base game"

If I was Dev for a cold war CDLC I'd want to know:

1. How do you measure that? I can make a cold war CDLC and technically be expanding the base game.
2. Why is rotators getting special treatment that's directly boosting their sales when we signed in to the same program and conditions?

[tepid lance]

I am a cold war CDLC dev and strangely I dont have those questions, but mostly because "it's what it is". Almost 5 years into it...

You'll measure your success your own way and then live with the results. I dont agree with a lot of CDLC practises, predominantly the reselling of old Arma 2 assets and retexes, but if it works, maybe thats the correct strategy if you're in it for profit incentive. Personally looking back every major content update we did could apparently have been a followup DLC? 🤷‍♂️ How much should we have charged for the free update that brought 3 helicopters, 2 planes and a new tank? I better not think about it 🤣

[dark steeple]

Pretty sure that BI didnt force you to do free updates and it was your decision? Or did they told you that you should come up with few free platform updates?

[tepid lance]

I am not sure if these internals can be discussed in the public here. But avenues were explored of course.

What can be said of course is that a lot of rules and guidelines changed since then and no longer apply today, leading to a lot of headscratching on our side.

[steady nest]

Surely the CDLC still gets maintained
On whatever schedule the devs decide, which isn't up to BI...

[lunar rivet]

I hope y'all were well paid for the extra work y'all put in for the large updates. Sales of GM alone don't cut it given the extra work put in for the CDLC itself and the GM faction extensions over on the workshop. The work is really appreciated. 👌 I definitely wouldn't mind paying extra to continue supporting y'all.

[tepid lance]

It remains predominantly a labour of love and an amazing hobby. So reception like that is what keeps us going, thanks!

[sweet edge]

You keep getting an answer from multiple people over a subject that has been explained years ago and as a random you still don't understand what "No" means

[devout turtle]

No need to be rude. HG is a board member at savage and privy to all negotiations between savage and bohemia. As such he speaks with some considerable insight.

[devout turtle]

That’s a great way to describe it

[half kestrel]

when i already have a 1TB SSD just for Arma already

[ashen geyser]

Based

[devout turtle]

I have a 2TB NVME just for arma 3

The spoils of war

[unique bramble]

Since only two CDLC fit the vanilla setting, those two's compatibility data could be bundled with the game. I don't think people buying WS and RF CDLCs will take away from other CDLCs, I'd argue it will add to them as buying one CDLC is an incentive to also buy another.

[olive vortex]

What if there's 5 more that fit the theme, and more

Anyways they're not produced with that in mind.

[ashen geyser]

I feel like we're just going in circles aren't we

[hoary ridge]

as long the cdlc thing could be implemented more friendly it would be ok too. there still alot players which keep asking "how they can enter this server" (ws server). maybe make compatibility data default when connecting the server OR ask if the player would like to download the preview, buy the cdlc or cancel the connection.

[ashen geyser]

Now that kind of solution I can get behind

[sinful cape]

easier access to the compatibility data is the only way to handle this

[devout turtle]

Would agree and support any initiatives there

(Though initiative is not a defining characteristic of the creator project hehe)

Wouldn’t the world be a nicer place if bohemia had a proactive, well resourced team that regularly touched base with creator team leads and canvassed their opinions and issues and worked diligently to improve things and market the dlcs, and develop new ways of working and marketing that made us all feel great? Yeah no that’s not how it is. Shame, but it is what it is.

They work hard enough. But the project is by definition very limited.

Not their fault. And the minimum is just enough to help.

But to request big changes of the project or to accuse BI of tyrrany or whatever is literally to misunderstand the reality we all work with. Everyone does their best

I’ve said since the very beginning that BI is killing the baby in the manger. As some of us could grow with their support into powerful allies

But the team managing the creator project has no scope to go there.

I think czech and british/ us/ western european culture around partnership in business is very different.

A lot of czechs have explained it to me and recently i met with an important czech figure who gave me a deep insight into the czech mindset, which had me amazed and laughing hard as it made everything clear. I could see exactly why things are like they are, and hold no hard feelings about the whole endeavour

It is what it is. No point to “fight for change”

BI has been incredibly helpful with us and didnt have to do half the things we asked for, they are not “tyrannical” as someone said previously here.

But in some technical areas it’s practically impossible to do the things some people request here. It just won’t work out well.

[lime geyser]

sorry, I didn't mean to be rude just I was overwhelmed at that time a bit but I understand what he tried to explain to us.

[devout turtle]

all good mate

we know Bohemia isn't able to say too much, so we're trying to fill that gap from our better understanding. our team has a long history of debating these subjects internally too

[dense bay]

Do I understand it correctly that the person behind a CDLC that already gave 50% off after a bit more than a year and 66% off approx 1.5 years AND had multiple content updates indirectly complains about not making enough profit?
That sounds way more like having a bad business sense rather than BI not being supportive enough to be quite honest.

SOG at least kept it at max 33% off all the time whilst adding massive updates which, whilst making large updates seems to be a large monetary impact, at least still allows them to earn money and not only cents on the dollar.

[devout turtle]

we're all in that boat due to the way the contract was structured

this is also why we kept SOG discount quite conservative for some years

the "bad business model" is splitting revenues 50-50 with a multi-million dollar publisher without allowing production expenses to be deducted first.

in our case we'd be half a million in profit now along with BI, if that was permitted, but instead BI is 1.5m in profit and we are 0.5m in the red.

however, it didn't stop us from completing the vision.

we gained a brand, a team, a track record, and a lot of assets. If we don't break even from the dlc sales, which is a possibility, we'll license the assets into our next title to cover the full costs to 100%

did BI need that $1m more than us?

[sinful cape]

hey, i'm not complaining 😄

[devout turtle]

Lexx had the most clever setup - small 2035 based DLC's and covered all the expenses himself

so he'll be in profit very fast

we had an expansive vision, that is not super profitable now but will lead to a long-term studio development with our SF partnerships in the US

different models

[dense bay]

I was not talking about you. Apologies if it came accross like that.
Your concept seems more logical, at least from the outside perspective.
I was talking about Glob Mob.

[sinful cape]

it didn't, just wanted to chime in 😄

[red saddle]

Well if you want to use lots of content, you'll use lots of content, if its mod or CDLC.
If you don't use it, you can just untick the CDLC checkbox to free up disk space

[ashen geyser]

You can't do that with official DLCs tho (as far as I know). And what was proposed, and what I was replying to, was integrating CDLCs in the same way official DLCs are

Which I disagree with

Everyone who installs Arma 3 has Apex installed with it, even if they don't own it. I imagine someone who only plays Cold War content would be very happy about being forced to add some extra GB's of content to their Arma installation every time a new 2035 CDLC comes out

[tepid lance]

Where did I complain about"not enough profit"? Maybe you're reading too much into things that dont exist, and it shows your own biases...

Or perhaps you forget that we were the first CDLC out and had to pave the way, take the brunt of the negative "omg paid mods" to establish the CDLC concept as a whole. We're only at 60% steam average because of that massive "political" debate about the concept at the start. If you deduct the intial blow, we're way ahead, with a YoY average at 80% as of today.

What I am trying to say: The CDLC concept, rules and structures of what/how/when things can be published are very different now than they were in 2019/2020. 🙂

Ultimately we are extremely happy with what we have built, and also the reception it got. The mentioned 1.2 helicopter update was bombastic, but given the way things are today, i don't think it would have happened the same way in 2024.

[silk jolt]

Most are extremely happy with what you have built 🙂

[tepid lance]

Thanks, and almost 5 years later, we're still continuing. Probably also "bad business sense". 🙃

[dense bay]

I don't have biases, hence why I started my first sentence with Do I understand it correctly..., as I wasn't sure.
You mentioning I dont agree with a lot of CDLC practises, predominantly the reselling of old Arma 2 assets and retexes, but if it works, maybe thats the correct strategy if you're in it for profit incentive. as well as It remains predominantly a labour of love and an amazing hobby. sounded to me like you maybe not being especially happy with how much money you made or the strategy you took, which made me look into the limited amount of data you can get from steam regarding sales which I then compared to SOGs limited data.

If that is not the case and you are happy with what you achieved with GM, who am I do shit-talk that.

So no, I was not reading too much into things that don't exist, I was reading into things that exist, as you wrote them. Nevertheless, seems like I misunderstood those.

[devout turtle]

SOG is probably the least profitable dlc - biggest team, largest content, - largest price too by a slim margin and probably largest sales in units

and largest costs by a long margin. it's just how we rolled

TLDR we'd prefer a more forgiving rev share model

but long term we have a solid rep, huge reusable asset base, plans to pay off the assets fully through licensing into our unreal game, and we have us special forces relationships that activision would give their left nut to have

and a AAA team addition for the next title

so the business model is very different to other creator teams

it's worth repeating this set of facts, as often players say "why dont other dlc teams release as much content as us"

well, we're the least profitable, most generous dlc

so not the best strategy for everyone

we always had our eye on the next title right from day 1

because we came from jets dlc, and saw sog as a logical next stepping stone to a standalone game

if we just wanted money, we'd havbe made 3 or 4 separate 2035 DLC's

which was actually the advice we got from john spartan who masterminded jets dlc originally

we just didn't want to go in that direction

[pastel pendant]

whats this supposed to mean?? 😂

[dense bay]

Make smaller packages like the jets dlc which don't have their own map and add content to vanilla arma 3 rather than creating a whole world.
Hence having smaller costs and larger ROI.
Like for example (just some random thoughts):

• underwater dlc - with more divers, submarines, underwater bombs etc
• artic warware dlc - with arctic adaptations of uniforms, weapons, gear, vehicle skins of vanilla assets plus a few new ones

At least that's what I get from past messages.

[devout turtle]

yes, nailed it

small packages make a lot more profit

we knew this going in, from jets dlc experience

we kinda hoped that the 9m arma 3 owners - maybe 1m would buy our dlc

[dense bay]

I don't even want to know how much cam lao nam in itself costs, considering all the assets required

[devout turtle]

maybe when the price is low enough they still will

making the biggest most expensive dlc - well the price sensitivity seems to be the biggest single factor affecting buyer behavior

so as our discount grows now, 3 years after release, maybe we'll see a high volume of ongoing sales

so far the curve is constantly upward

so fingers crossed. no dips yet

both in revenues and in units

but it's a long slog

[devout turtle]

well if you set out to just make the map and convert all the assets from A3, and add all the other assets we made for use in it's construction - about $600,000

maybe 500. hard to call it exactly, but about that figure

the later maps cost a lot less

smaller and all the assets were already made

[dense bay]

Will you also be able to use those assets in the future game or rather not because of different engines?

[devout turtle]

not arma 3 assets we converted - foliage, rocks, buildings

but ones we created yes

although tbh looking at the unreal art pipeline we've designed (with a technical art director from xbox) we may end up making those from scratch

[dense bay]

or buying existing quality packages I would guess

[devout turtle]

BI is being helpful and nice in allowing us to reuse / repurpose our own source assets

well there aren't many we'd buy as our technical needs (destruction models, shader types, historical base and compatibility - like entrance and stair sizes, window heights etc etc) all need sorting out in advance

we're talking to other studios about outsourcing whole packages

as our core team would focus on the really important stuff

[dense bay]

I was more thinking about trees, rocks rather than buildings but understandable

[devout turtle]

again we would buy a foliage pack but the destruction and performance characteristics need designing from scratch

overdraw, and technical lods, and the way transparencies are handled, plus movement fx

we've been admiring the new game gray zone warfare - their foliage looks yummy

but again it won't be what we need

[dense bay]

makes sense to have it cohesive

[devout turtle]

so we start from a technical prototype then plan it all and outsource it's creation to that spec

we did this a lot in SOGPF creation

started small, set up prototypes and then experimented and expanded horizontally

it's partly why we spent a lot of money on it

reworking foliage and rocks and buildings from BI as well as making new ones

we handled over 4000 terrain models i think

the results speak for themselves, although some people will look and say "recycled assets"

[dense bay]

explains why you are still in the red numbers

[devout turtle]

what they're not seeing is retexturing, removing anachronisms, adding walkable roofs, climbable drainpipes, better optimisation for AI

added damage fx

[dense bay]

the drainpipes really are a nice touch

[devout turtle]

all kinds of work

we had fun doing it all and it's a fun map as a result

but it cost a bomb

[young geyser]

To the trained eye it is really noticeable... but the average player might miss them indeed

[devout turtle]

yeah thanks

the guys did an awesome job

nearly 10 map makers on one map, a team of 8 guys redoing 3000 imported assets over 2 years

literally all they did was open the next asset and go through a checklist of tasks

on repeat weekly for 2 years

we had 3 students who drove every inch of road

and blew up every building with pistols that shot point nukes

[young geyser]

It could have easily been a game on its own... well you will hopefully do that in the near future 😉 GM and SOG are truly stand alone material and the only category that should be under the CDLC figure. Smallish DLCs should be under the Art of War program or something

[devout turtle]

we even added a vast underwater area with easter eggs and caves for divers

i still dont know all the easter eggs they put in

[young geyser]

but whatever, I am happy to have supported you guys and had at least 8 of my friends buying SOG

[devout turtle]

andsome of them are pictures with me with tits lol

[dense bay]

Going back to the 1mil out of 9 mil players goal, I'd guesstimate, based on your numbers, the profit share with BI and the cut from steam that you are at approx one 3rd of the way, would that be somewhat correct?

[devout turtle]

we have nothing but admiration for the other creator teams and their achievements

we all just have slightly different business models

and different ambitions

(one presumes)

[devout turtle]

we've made no secret of our sales - currently 330k units and climbing steadily

we just exceeded $6m gross recently

[young geyser]

Indeed, and different business models require tailored revenue models too... which you guys did not get but whatever, it was an amazing experience as you said and you made history by peaking what A3 could deliver

[somber ice]

Same - even bought at least 3-4 times for others

[devout turtle]

our new website goes up tomorrow

and you can read about our team's vision and direction when it does

(just in time for GDC)

[young geyser]

We will be supporting you guys all they way

[devout turtle]

we have 5 proposals going in this week alone, for related projects

to a few select funders

who are outside of the game industry

[dense bay]

I'm not much involved in the community, don't read much posts and especially no social media, but nice that my guesstimation was more or less spot on.
I hope you do the the mil users in the future.

[devout turtle]

we hope that as discounts grow now, the volume will grow too

we have a cool new game mode coming down the pipe

[young geyser]

Just make sure your funders aren't BI and aren't intrusive in the decision making, vision and timing

[devout turtle]

which should attract players

[dense bay]

so you plan to go higher than 33% off I guess

[devout turtle]

of course, like all DLC's we'll follow the BI curve, but we held back for a while due to the large costs of the updates

[dense bay]

I'm still amazed that Factorio never goes on sale and the price just rises whilst everybody else goes on sale.
Such a different approach.

[young geyser]

I will always admire the transparency with which you guys operate... That sort of unexpected behavior from a dev makes it impossible for fans not to support such unique team

[dense bay]

To be honest, without BI Savage wouldn't be where they are today.
So ruling them out like this seems unfair to me.

[devout turtle]

yeah it might be risky to be so open, but it's how i've always run my companies since setting up my first workers co-op in 97

what's cool is - having done that, and learned a lot of lessons about NOT giving ownership to the team early on, we've now passed that mark, and guys who have been with us for the past 4-6 years are now looking forward to taking some ownership of the studio

just as we start reaching out to large corporate investors

we're looking for about $8-15m to do our next game

we could cut features and make it smaller and less risky

but for now we've set out our store at that AA sized target

[dense bay]

Gotta bounce, dog needs a walk, was fun talking.
thanks

[devout turtle]

right now the game market is really shit for investment in new IP

but we have a LOT of fans in the military and intelligence communities

so we're exploring that, with half an eye out for studios that can see our potential

(based more on the material than us as individuals)

will be interesting to review all this in 5 years time and see where we all are

it's not some competition of course

just more like an interesting set of journeys

dean hall in auckland in his lambo, brendan greene in amsterdam with a private jet (probably) and us lot, all in different spaces, doing different creative stuff

the arma creators club

our goal isn't personal fortunes and the high life, it's telling real stories of special ops, with real special ops guys, in TV, documentaries, graphic novels, games and museums as well as supporting educational projects, memorials, medal upgrades and recruitment into NATO special operations units

so we're on a mission that's not about making money but should, if done right, make plenty

[devout turtle]

we never had funding from BI, and they also kept well out of decision making, and vision, as per our agreement. Timing is a necessary choke point but doesn't cause too many problems. and they work well with us to try to accommodate us. but as the number of creator DLCs expands, we moved out of the pipeline to allow others space, and to allow us more freedom and flexibility

and to generate a little extra income from patreon

this is our goal in a nutshell

we have AAA guys with 30 years experience joining the team saying "with this material you cannot fail"

i mean, of course we can, but it's a motivating thing to hear from quite a few really experienced people

TLDR band of brothers and call of duty 1 at the same time, both set in macv sog, with the same characters. so you can watch the show and play with the characters in game

crazy ambitions (and budgets)

so SOG is a different beast to the other creator projects. it's not trying to outdo them, or make them feel anything less, because they all stand apart on their own terms, and are generally more profitable than us

we're just a bit crazy, and going for broke

[hoary ridge]

oh ive liked all the cdlcs ive bought, just missed out one but thats not the cdlcs fault. (spearhead its called i think)

its just annoying to explain every 2nd person why they cant connect onto a cdlc server.

its not the fault of the cdlc devs.

[young geyser]

Funders with proven rigid business models, unable to adapt fast to changing market conditions and indie devs are never a good combination. Indie devs need versatility and room for innovation just to be profitable and competitive. If the CDLC program has shown something is that it wasn't made to cater to all the business models that it would end up "accommodating" and that its creators are not able to make the changes necessary to maximize player satisfaction and/or sales

Besides, these guys have shown such talent and passion that funders are raining down on them, they have the opportunity and blessing on choosing who they partner with

[devout turtle]

we are talking to some very interesting potential partners lol

seeking to align values and goals without their being acquisitive or seeking IP ownership

we think if we can make our next AA game on a max $15m budget, and land $100-200m in sales, they'll be happy and get a decent return, and we'll have enough money to do everything we want to (except the tv show)

maintaining financial independence is key

there are quite a few studios who would finance us now, but want to own the IP

well frankly Screw them

we're not dumb

[young geyser]

That is the spirit, you can get a helping partner but not by selling your souls...

[devout turtle]

we have a special forces general on the board

and a former secretary of defense opening doors for us in DC

so it's hopefully gonna work out nice in the end

the TV show author Ralph Pezzullo is a literary god

[young geyser]

You deserve all this guys, and so much more, I am just so happy that there is still opportunity for the good guys in this world

[devout turtle]

and as a favor he's writing the character arcs for our next game

he got blown up by the VC

and his dad was (probably) involved in the assassination of president Diem in 63

his memoir about it "Saigon" is being made now into a major movie. we have a prodcution company formed in Hanoi with an NVA general on the board.

so we can get all the NVA we want for the tv show

it's a wild world we're in now

who knows how it will pan out

he's talking to AAA oscar winning actors to play his dad in the movie

so we're in good hands with our writer

and his contacts are amazing for the TV show development

i'm about to spend easter at his home in beverly hills meeting heads of movie production companies

from arma modding to the next band of brothers with a 120m budget

we hope

[young geyser]

🙏

[devout turtle]

and may 3rd we're attending the special forces regimental ball, and having a photo taken with all the surviving medal of honor recipients

[young geyser]

I've got you guys in my prayers so that everything turns out as intended

[devout turtle]

the purpose of the photo is to use as a thumbnail in our video which promotes the congressional gold medal campaign for MACV SOG

it will go out to every member of congress

this work is as important as our game dev work

this is why we're looking outside the game world for finance

because the lootbox brigade would have none of that

[young geyser]

Indeed, you guys have more connections at your start than most AAA companies after years in the market, that surely is a good starting position to be in 😉

[devout turtle]

having generals and secdefs in our orbit makes a huge difference

in terms of access, but also their gravity distorts our direction

and we're ok with that

frankly, in 5-6 years we'll have outgrown a lot of current competitors and be rapidly becoming a household name

and we're ok wit hthat

but at our core is a creator team, and we won't be selling / exiting to make millions for our founders

this is explicitly stated on our new website

so many game studios (cough cough insurgency, squad, etc) grow to exit

[young geyser]

It is important to stay humble no matter how big/influential. Boots to the ground. Hell let loose was skyrocketing until they sold out and now it is a shadow of its former self, just like Insurgency Sandstorm

[devout turtle]

the owners exit with $20m in their pockets

and the creatives get fecked by the deal

[devout turtle]

fully agree

we believe our mission is broader and more cultural, so we're seeking foundation and private finance that is sympathetic with our cultural and economic goals and not just using a formula to make money from its partners

so yeah - as said earlier - our business model is a bit unique

what do you all think is the best thing to come out of sog prairie fire?

for us, and @knotty ore said this in our interview with Tilt, "it's the team"

previous modders turned pros who are now multimillionaires didn't take their team with them

rocket has also taken a large amount of investment from tencent

we won't touch russian or chinese money, period. we can't, not with our access and connections/ supporters. it would be career suicide as well as highly unappealing.

anyway i'd be interested to hear other creator leads' perspectives but most are quiet about their goals. it would be a great evening sat around the firepit, drinking beer together and going over our challenges and experiences making our DLC's

maybe one day Ivan can make that happen for us

given how hard it is to deliver a product and handle the public reactions, and manage relations with BI and diverse team members, we'd all have a lot to talk about

our next jump to unreal is unimaginably complex.

thankfully we have some outstanding AAA guys on board

to help show us the way

[red saddle]

You can with contact

[dull mauve]

What does Contact provide besides the Magic Shovel?

[hallow parrot]

Contact Platform != Contact, aka enoch != contact

Which means the optional part, like Alien, is included in 1.18 gigs there

[red saddle]

Yeah the optional part you can.
But CDLC's would also be optional. They already are.

Mh actually, don't know if steam can let you download DLC packages that you don't own 🤔
That's probably the blocking factor.

If the choice is mandatory forced download for everyone, because Steam doesn't support anything else, then that's obviously not going to happen.

But if its possible to have it show up in that list, disabled by default, even for non-owners. Then we have a potential option. If not then we can forget about it and stop discussing.

[sinful cape]

like said before, adding a direct link to the workshop compat data, or preferably even (optionally) automatically singing up to it if the dlc isnt owned and the user clicks on it, could be a viable solution to make it easier

[devout turtle]

we'd support that Lexx

[olive vortex]

Mh actually, don't know if steam can let you download DLC packages that you don't own 🤔
it does not, you can set some packages to not automatically download if owned but must own them to be able to download at all.

You would need one AppId/Depot for the data other for licenses I guess.

[tepid lance]

🤔 There's a ton of depots I have access to, that weren't consciously opted into, like the dedicated server builds of various games, so you could be auto-subscribed to those and dont auto-DL them. Maybe thats a way?

[slate rampart]

I just wish you could use them in a vanilla environment

[ashen geyser]

Well, at least for RF servers one probably can even join with the compat data

Since no new map, I guess they'll be running vanilla maps

[lean sentinel]

To have it stated, if not already done, please open a proper feedback tracker ticket with your suggestion regarding linking the compat data directly or even potentially having people automatically opt in when cdlc is not owned.

You know the drill

[red saddle]

Looking for it I found this https://feedback.bistudio.com/T144483
Which would still be a problem

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T157714 There was this, which we have done

[sinful cape]

i only see "install dlc" button

or did i misunderstood what you mean

that screenshot in the 2nd ticket shows a "get compatibility data" button

[red saddle]

Yeah we added that

[hoary ridge]

i think the launcher ain't the problem, alot players just start the game without checking the launcher options. they just try to connect the cdlc servers

[sinful cape]

like, right now or in the past? because i don't see it in my launcher 🙂

[olive vortex]

Won't show if you own the DLC

[sinful cape]

ofc i checked with cdlc that i dont own 😄

actually let me double check 😄

well damn. you are right. i didnt even knew i owned that dlc 😄

[red saddle]

That's how it'd look like

[sinful cape]

yea

[red saddle]

Not sure if it being black is supposed to be like that

Clicking on it opens the workshop page

[sinful cape]

ok, then i dunno. is the issue that if you join a server, it will download other mods, but not compatibility data?

[red saddle]

The server sends a modlist, collected from the meta.cpp files from loaded modfolders. Which contains the workshop item id.
CDLC's don't have a meta.cpp. The server doesn't know that a workshop version of it exists. So it also doesn't tell Launcher users about it

I think simply adding a meta.cpp into your servers RF folder would fix that

Then when you click on server, it should say mods are required, and list the compat data workshop item

Maybe the solution to this problem is simply for us to add meta.cpp files to all CDLCs?

[sinful cape]

could we add the meta.cpp by default to the dlc download?

[red saddle]

sure

[sinful cape]

i mean.. i guess it shouldnt cause any issues. doesn't look like there is anything fancy in it

[red saddle]

Just need someone to verify that it actually solves the issue, it definitely should but with Arma you never know

Problem though.
It will also tell CDLC owners that already have it, that they need the compat data to join the server...

But filtering that out in Launcher wouldn't be much effort

[sinful cape]

it for sure would make handling this easier

so i'm a big fan

[karmic harness]

I think you could do it either way: since you have that "compatibility data" button that is present, that means that you have the connection between CDLC X and mod Y hardcoded in the launcher already, meaning that if the server advertises a given CDLC (seen as "mod" from the launcher point of view) you could use that mapping to point to the compatibility data, as well

[hallow parrot]

Aegis Discord is actually tired of lxWS something is missing any help? despite the Workshop website shows WS is a dependency

[red saddle]

I don't know if they actually advertise CDLC.
There are no DLC flags for them

[hallow parrot]

I wish if Launcher suggests to install compat if you don't own the CDLC, or just load it if you own it

[karmic harness]

They should advertise it as mod ID=XYZ and have the isDLC flag set, for that mod, from my experience (and also according to ServerBrowserProtocol3)

I mean BI's DLCs have their separate DLC flags at the top of the structure and CDLCs have that flag next to the mod ID

So you basically just need to remember which "mod" ID it is

[red saddle]

That still leaves the case when a server is running a CDLC terrain, because then the compat data will not work.
But leaving that unsolved and solving the rest is still better than nothing

[devout turtle]

I like where this is going…

[karmic harness]

We solved that by having a "whitelist" of CDLC terrain names. There's not that many of those either

But yeah, if the mission rotates after the player has joined, you can't do anything about that 😢

[ashen geyser]

That already happens with official DLCs too. If a player doesn't own Apex, they get kicked out if the server switches to Tanoa.

As expected

[lean sentinel]

One different thing which possibly could increase player experience with CDLCs, as we are already working together:
When more than one CDLC is loaded main menu should revert back to the vanilla menu instead of different CDLCs trying to overwrite it.

[sinful cape]

well, that's up to the dlc creators. not really something that can be fixed globally

since we have soft dependency now, maybe those creators could add a config mod that checks for other conflicting cdlcs and then reverts the menu, i dunno.

[lean sentinel]

True. But there could be a check in base arma which switches from 0 to 1 when more than one cdlc is loaded. Then the CDLC creators could hook into this and disable the menu overwrites for that case.
Would be nicer than every cdlc having their own check.

[lean sail]

But then the same would apply for regular mods (which I would be fine with)

[young geyser]

But you are not changing the message UI box that appears when you click the checkbox to enable an non-owned dlc? I am talking about this one: https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/tbPCC6esJUWA42uYrujJiKuaoKXbPZOkmPGmvBP2sfg/https/i.ibb.co/N6dZh8X/Old-Vs-New-Message.png?format=webp&quality=lossless (the one that says OLD)

Because that UI https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/568088159959777281/1217095398087331870/arma3launcher_MZiysuHEp7.png?ex=6602c76b&is=65f0526b&hm=dcaeebea7fe6431094790af7268e61e608c0b48ebd31f326e0a2aadbd461d37f&=&format=webp&quality=lossless is hidden most of the time, so also adding a reference to the COMPAT DATA on that popup UI (like the one that says NEW ☝️ ) would do wonders to present players with said option... without having it hidden from some "idiots like me" 😅 who would only ever try to click the tick square rather than the rectangle that displays the hidden UI

Besides, the current popup message (OLD) is actually a lie now because you CAN load the CDLC even if you don't own it, just that it has to be by using the COMPAT DATA, when it currently says: "Is not owned and cannot be loaded", it should say instead: "It is not owned and can only be loaded with the COMPATIBILITY DATA"

Just my two cents, bye

[devout turtle]

useful suggestion @young geyser
simple to implement? let's hope so

[young geyser]

It seems that nothing is "simple" when it comes to the launcher 👀

But when I said simple I actually meant "simple compared to other alternatives", since it is mostly adding a button to an already existing UI and having that button do exactly what the other button on the hidden UI already does... so in theory the code behind the implementation is all already present in the launcher, it is just a matter of extra exposure and changing the translation files so that the UI text reflects those changes

As always, the theory doesn't always match reality so, we will see...

[wraith sleet]

id like to see a Ships CDLC

[pastel pendant]

🛳️

[wraith sleet]

like they can add the modern USN ships LHDs and aircraft carriers

[ashen geyser]

Taking notes for my imaginary CDLC project

[knotty ore]

very unlikley to happen

ships are big objects and take a lot more work to make

especially in the level of quality CDLCs would need to be

and ship combat is not really a vanilla feature in Arma so that would have to be developed on top

its not very financially realistic theme

[wraith sleet]

alr

[steady nest]

If there is one, we won't know until it's either announced or someone breaks NDA... that said, besides what HorribleGoat said Bohemia already previously implemented aspects of what you're looking for with the USS Freedom in Jets DLC (done with Bravo Zero One Studio(s)) and then later the 1.84 game update 'Encore' added the USS Liberty

[devout turtle]

That was us more than bohemia

[ashen geyser]

You guys did the USS Freedom?

I always assumed you did the jets, being the actual DLC assets, and everything in the platform update by BI

[devout turtle]

No we did most of it. BI did some of the upgrade code basically

Nodunit made the freedom and liberty, me and john spartan rigged and encoded them. Mainly john, i helped.

[steady nest]

By some of the upgrade code I'm imagining that this refers to stuff like the sensor overhaul... I distinctly remember conversing with oukej about it

[devout turtle]

Yeah he and hladas and a few others handled that

John did a lot of prototyping. He would make a mod with proof of concept ideas and they would take it and adapt it in the engine code

A good partnership approach

Things like the pylon manager

But the ships that was 99% us

The geometry of the carrier deck took a lot of joined up tinkering

When it came to the destroyer John rigged most of it then handed it to me to finish up

BI were hardly involved at all. Just QA which was extensive

[arctic inlet]

Is CSLA Iron Curtain still riddled with bugs, missing textures and so on like 2 years ago or is it a decent CDLC nowadays?

[knotty ore]

you can test it with the compatibilty data

[arctic inlet]

What does that mean? I don't understand.

[hallow parrot]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2503886780

[knotty ore]

All the CDLCs can be tested with the compatiblity data addons that are available in the Steam workshop like the one linked above

[steady nest]

What HorribleGoat said, they do the equivalent of what BI does with Arma 3's first-party DLCs-when-not-paid

I will note that apparently some CSLA Studio stuff was released as mods because it was faster to release that way than to get BI to greenlight them for a 1.1 update 🤨 nevertheless they did at least one official update

[wraith sleet]

i wonder what CDLC will come out after RF

[formal minnow]

RF 2

[steady ravine]

WS 2

[ashen geyser]

Cars

[foggy ravine]

GM 2

[ashen geyser]

Planes

[knotty ore]

Karts2

[pallid raptor]

IR (Infrared)

[hard mauve]

U2 (Bono Sunglasses edition)

[ashen geyser]

Just for you: ships

[gilded turret]

so hyped for the new cdlc

[gilded turret]

i want that

[gilded turret]

i dont even know what its about

are they gonna add the desert eagle?

this looks awesome

[devout turtle]

Well it won’t be SOG 2!

[steady ravine]

But can we expect SOG: Reforger instead?

[prime hollow]

Real

1979 or 1985 take yo pick

[lean sentinel]

I want to see "The Dutch Struggles for Land Reclamation" aka sandbag carry simulator

[wraith sleet]

id like to see these CDLCs:
ww1
interwar
korean war
gulf war
modern current present day

[foggy ravine]

okay

[ashen geyser]

Didn't you want ships tho?

[ashen geyser]

They are

[shell eagle]

whats makes you to say that? Is that wrong that new cdlc is not SOG 2 or is not that big?

[scenic hemlock]

Gulf War armored battles, air sorties, or Delta / SAS SCUD Hunt missions would be fun.

[hallow parrot]

He is the head of SOGPF

[gilded turret]

i especially want number 4

i also want Panama 1989

mostly because my dad was in both of those conflicts

not front lines

at least not in the Gulf

but yeah i especially want the Gulf War one

[gilded turret]

niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice

i mean CSLA has it but a more modern Deagle is even better

[ashen geyser]

Csla has a deagle? That'd be news to me lol

[gilded turret]

yeah

it has one

weird

i cant find it

i might be thinking about the CUP deagle

yeah sorry thats what i was thinking about

im an idiot

[karmic harness]

Personally, I can't wait for SOG2: Prairier Fire

[hallow parrot]

D.O.G. Prairie Dog

[prime hollow]

Reaction Forces will have one too so maybe you thought of that also

[wraith sleet]

id like to see 2 other CDLCs:
SPECIAL FORCES
WW3

[young geyser]

Female Recruits for all factions included Civilians CDLC

[devout turtle]

Lol like it, it has a working title of SOG Out of Shadow rn

[pastel pendant]

Explain these two ideas please

[lunar rivet]

Omg having female troops and civis would be great. I love having variety.

[worn cape]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2647760/Arma_3_Creator_DLC_Reaction_Forces/?curator_clanid=2799889

Steam

Arma 3 Creator DLC: Reaction Forces

More From Rotators Collectivehttps://store.steampowered.com/app/1681170/Arma_3_Creator_DLC_Western_Sahara/Fight fires from above in the Cougar medium utility helicopter or swerve from the beaten track in the MOOSE pickup truck to take on tier-1 operations with new weapons and equipment, from pistols and rifles to remote-controlled mortars and mi...

Price

$7.99

Kinda sad that I'm faster then the announcement on the official Arma discord

[scenic hemlock]

How often did you have to refresh the page the past couple of hours?

[worn cape]

I did it three times in the last 10. Just luck I guess

[scenic hemlock]

Just ended up being too fast for me

[exotic ginkgo]

how does one start the forest fire 🤔

i dont see any modules in zeus or eden

[somber ice]

Its called Wildfire, the module

[exotic ginkgo]

hmmm not seeing it

cant upload pictures

ah wait, it's in eden

i was hoping it was a zeus module as well, but hey I can live with it being in eden

regardless, playing with all of this stuff is a thrill lol

the twin motars and suicide drones are particularly cool

[wraith sleet]

i like the new cougar heli

new transport chopper/heli to use in A3 ZEUS OPs

[exotic ginkgo]

oh yeah the helicopters are so well done

easily my second favorite CDLC, purely because of the amount of options it gives for Zeusing, with such a small file size

[wraith sleet]

and it ONLY costs 8 euros in europe

[exotic ginkgo]

yup!

perfect imo

[wraith sleet]

im buying it 1st thing in next month

[exotic ginkgo]

100% worth it, you wont be dissapointed, espeically if you liked West Sahara

[wraith sleet]

i have WS CDLC

i can now use the Cougar heli to do transporting

like troops into a AO in A3 ZEUS OPs

[exotic ginkgo]

the other helicopter is really nice too for small scale transport/attack

the hellcat

[wraith sleet]

ah nice

the hellcat?

@exotic ginkgo are you gonna buy it aswell?

[exotic ginkgo]

have it rn

[wraith sleet]

Oh

did you test it like yet? @exotic ginkgo

[exotic ginkgo]

yuhhhh its awesome

[wraith sleet]

nice

[exotic ginkgo]

trying to make a huge forest fire

[wraith sleet]

XD

[verbal hamlet]

Anyone have a wildland firefighter server up

[wraith sleet]

Id Like to see a ww2 eastern front CDLC

[sand ledge]

okay

[stray merlin]

Are the items from reaction force like guns and others available in base game Arma without starting the dlc?

[olive vortex]

#reaction_forces message

It's the same for every Creator DLC

[hoary ridge]

next cdlc please add a humvee 😦 would even spend 7,99 € on just 1 humvee

[pseudo finch]

I just wish that the Launcher would automatically download the Workshop Compatibility Pack for each CDLC when you don't own it. I would make me at least add some of them to my Server.

[foggy ravine]

It would be interesting to see todays millitary vehicles as run down 2035 versions

[hallow parrot]

Had to say compat file and actual DLC file handling is terrible, wish it is better

[ashen geyser]

At least when joining a server from the launcher, that would be cool. Especially with Reaction Forces, which you can as far as I know, play on the servers with just the compat patch

Since all game modes and missions are on vanilla terrains

[steady ravine]

didnt CSLA and GM has Hmvee

[tepid lance]

GM doesn't.

[hoary ridge]

oh i meant a modern one.

[mystic thunder]

Would be a good idea to put answer the question about adding CDLC to base game and why in this FAQ post
or for a good explanation to be pinned

Just make sure it's a satisfying answer or else people will still ask

[red saddle]

"Why is Creator DLC optional to install? " is listed there

[mystic thunder]

did you just add that?

[red saddle]

no

Not sure if it fully answers that question though?
And "Why not included in basegame" == "optional to install" maybe most people don't make the connection that these mean the same

[mystic thunder]

Doesn't fully answers it as there are exceptions (proposed solutions to size, size not being a issue for most, 2035 CDLC, ect).
But generally something else feels to be a reason as well, like contracts between Creators and BI, cost to BI, ect
I don't know if there is a good way to put it as i bet there's multiple reasons, all not good enough reasons on their own.

[grave osprey]

Most people, frankly, are idiots 🙄

[slate rampart]

Welp

Another DLC that would have been perfect for the base game

Nope

Another cDLC that I will never even think about again

Sucks too

Alot of good potential

I would have paid double the price too

[hallow parrot]

Buy twice

[ashen geyser]

Please...

This is by far the easiest CDLC to use for non-owners

The compat data is tiny, and you can join the official servers with it (you can with other CDLCs too, but only if they're running vanilla terrains, which in this case is always)

[gilded turret]

humvee is in CSLA

anyways i hope the next cdlc is a Gulf War one

they'd probably add humvees to that

but if they add a Gulf dlc they'd definitely have to add jets

so it probably wont happen

honestly other than that it would basically just be a desert CSLA

which i wouldn't be too opposed to

i would love to see the CSLA team make a Gulf War cdlc

[knotty ore]

It is this attitude that is the main source of the problem imo. If everyone got the dlcs, then there would be absolutely 0 issues of using them since everyone has it. Can join any server, play with anyone.

[hoary ridge]

i was talking about a modern humvee not one from 1980s.

[hoary ridge]

if they make the ingame connection for non owners more user friendly (which was discussed and they said they will take a look at it) that would be fine too. (then its like connecting a modded server)

[wraith sleet]

id like to see the t14 and t15 armata added in a Future CDLC

[hoary ridge]

i didnt get my dlc's in first place too, ive tried that was possible to use out on public servers (with watermarks) and bought the dlc's after. same will end up with cdlcs.

[ashen geyser]

Bruh

[wraith sleet]

bruh what

[hallow parrot]

T-140 is already a thing in a first party DLC in the first place

[wraith sleet]

AH alr

sorry

[pseudo finch]

Regarding that. I saw that all CDLC keys are now included into the Arma 3 keys folder (owned or not). Is this a hint to some better compatibility? (Question to some ppl with kinda inside knowledge)

[sinful cape]

no, it was always like that

just easier to use for server people

[gilded turret]

whats the difference really

plus CUP exists

[gilded turret]

the T140 Argana

[lunar rivet]

I believe the later versions are uparmored. The humvee in CSLA gets swiss cheesed by everything. As far I can tell the glass on them isn't bullet proof either.

[gilded turret]

ah

what about CUP tho

[hoary ridge]

cup humvee wasnt modern either

[lunar rivet]

zEro is correct about CUP's humvees. I could've sworn CUP had recently created modern and high resolution humvees..... maybe Q2 last year?

[jaunty stump]

Are there any plans to integrate reaction forces into the base game, it fits really well into vanilla and having it work similar to the helicopter or jets DLC would be cool

It would be very cool to also have this for Western Sahara but I think that’s pushing it

[hallow parrot]

Well it's been about 5 years since this has been discussed without any break, and we have no answer than "it will never happened"

[jaunty stump]

☹️

[jaunty stump]

Have they given a reason?

[hallow parrot]

It is how it is and that's how they intended all the time

[subtle vessel]

is the new cdlc like laws of war?

[hallow parrot]

Depends on what exactly you see in LoW and RF. 2035? Yes common part. Campaign? No RF doesn't have one

[subtle vessel]

the emergency services stood out for me in LoW, especially after seeing IDAP in the steam page it felt a lot like LoW

[hallow parrot]

Kind of. The main scheme in RF is not civilian perspective anyways

[subtle vessel]

okay thanks

[sinful cape]

i beg to differ. our air control scenario is at least campaign size with something around 6 hours of gameplay, depending on how you play it

[hallow parrot]

Mmmm I thought of more of deeper story in that word

[random crane]

#485873988531126302 message they're being replaced, only availble in dev branch currently, but not for much longer

i think some of the more basic variants have already been replaced years ago in stable as well

[lunar rivet]

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

[random crane]

[wraith sleet]

Id Like to see a WW3 CDLC called: THE GLOBAL WAR

And a POST COLD WAR CDLC

And more COLD WAR CDLCs set in 50s 60s and 70s

And another ww2 CDLC set from. 1939 Till 1945

[mild rain]

And and and..... 😉

Would be awesome to see some of the CDLCs in Arma4.

[west vale]

Ah yes, just a comprehensive and exhaustive collection of every single uniform, weapon, vehicle, and obscure piece of military equipment ever operated by humanity spanning almost a century.

[olive vortex]

I'd like to see less useless "I'd like"`s

[west vale]

Team of 3 ought to be able to knock that out in a month or two, easy peasy 😉

[olive vortex]

let me out of the basement

[west vale]

I would, but I got locked in the motorpool to get photogrametry references

It gets cold at night

[lean sentinel]

Only if you ask nicely

[prime hollow]

Late 70s would be good. Force Match would be on par with each other for the Big Two (US v USSR). M60A1/A2/A3 vs T-62s and T-64s. Tbh just Combat Mission Cold War

[random crane]

https://tenor.com/view/silenceofthelambs-lotion-wildbill-it-rubs-gif-5239848

[pastel pendant]

Alr

[steady ravine]

I'd like no I DEMAND!

[gilded turret]

i just want a desert storm dlc

[ashen geyser]

I just want my boss to give me extra vacation days so I can play the new CDLC non-stop

[wraith sleet]

Id Like to see in a CDLC is the seaknight and pavelow

[grave osprey]

🙄

[karmic harness]

Be the change you want to see

[pastel pendant]

Bruh

[gilded turret]

i want a desert storm dlc

i will keep saying that until one is made

i think CSLA or someone else would make a good one

maybe vertexmacht

[steady ravine]

1 step closer to get banned or kicked for spam, keep an eye out

[prime hollow]

Vex would probably do a good job. Though I mean that would be a huge task to complete. giant wide open desert map where whoever's CPU is better wins. Air Campaign Missions or Just mainly Tanker missions from US/UK/French/Saudi etc, very limited infantry combat. You would need a lot to just do US forces excluding every other major participant. Plus Iraqs list of diverse equipment. Definitely would be awesome but an incredibly demanding job

[grave osprey]

Wasn’t much of a ground war at all, bar some SOF actions and a couple of tank battles

[slate spire]

The Battle of 73 Eastings would like a word

[grave osprey]

One battle does not make a war.

[old sable]

The new RF cdlc is pretty neat

the air control mission especially is right up my alley

it was momentarily confusing in MP for the ground team to be seeing/getting what seem like chopper missions

I'm wondering if the QRF mission was at some point planned to be bigger/more dynamic than it ended up being

has anyone had any trouble with the new 12.7 rifle and optics? seems like it shoots way above some of the default zeros (didn't do proper testing, just picked one up off the ground)

[random crane]

the bullet probably has a lot of drop as it's slower than normal assault rifle calibers, so if you have the gun ranged to some distance and shoot at a different one there will be a noticeable mismatch

(if im understanding your question right)

basically the bullet trajectory is much more arched than, say, 5.56

[hallow parrot]

Yeah we would want to hear more info if you're certain of the issue

[old sable]

Well I can try to recreate it as best I can, though the arch explanation seems likely

[random crane]

same thing happens with 9mm/45acp smgs and the asp-1 kira from marksman dlc

[sinful cape]

yes, it's quite related to the asp-1

[old sable]

Yup, that's pmuch what's happening. The arc is extreme and shooting it with an RCO is a challenge.

The defauly zeroing on that optic is 300m iirc, so it's a bit cheeky with this bullet velocity

But not a bug by any stretch, fun gun

[hallow parrot]

Ac...tually... yeah, it is how it is. The bullet drop and optic will not match in every case

One is designed for 6.5mm, one is for 5.56mm, one is for 300m, one is for 500m etc...

[old sable]

I think there's even an smg variant of the holo sight

[karmic harness]

That reminds me of the first time I tried using the ASP-1 Kir at larger distances, after reading that it's a marksman rifle (so it should do well at that, right? 😄 )

[hallow parrot]

I still believe it is very suck at being marksman rifle anyways

It has terrible accuracy due to subsonic

[karmic harness]

The bullet drop made me go "huh? Wait, where did that hit? There should be a small puff of dirt somewhere around. Hmm... the zeroing seems correct 🤔 " 😅

[teal kindle]

Yes, the bullet impact is well above the point of aim with the VRCO optic. I just tested in the arsenal, and at 100 meters, I was aiming at the beltline of a unit, and the round went over the unit's head.

The SMG optics have a much closer point of aim, point of impact for the Veles rifles, out to the effective rage of the rifle.

[teal kindle]

For the Veles, you want an optic with a 200 meter zero. If you need a magnified optic, the Nightstalker is good, because it's zero goes down to 100 meter.

[swift nacelle]

DMS Kir is probably good too, since it has 25m increments

Also, FWIW the Veles is designed for CQB, so it's probably best run with a red dot

[steady ravine]

hate that BI didnt make Russian variant of Rahim (change camo or name) and give it to Spetsnaz marksman in Contact.

[swift nacelle]

There's a black one in RF. Goes nicely with the black AK-12s

[ashen geyser]

And tan

[old sable]

spetsnaz in general could use some fleshing out I feel

[dapper cypress]

Man, why is there only a few people playing Cashpoint? It's so much fun!

[wraith sleet]

id like to see a SF units and factions CDLC

like SAS Delta force GIGN and others ETC

[pastel pendant]

alr

i will start working on it right now

when do you want it released?

[wraith sleet]

well

hmm

idk

[wraith sleet]

idk

[pastel pendant]

do you want a free key or would you like to pay for it?

[wraith sleet]

ill pay for it

[pastel pendant]

like a true cdlc supporter 💪

[wraith sleet]

yes

[ashen geyser]

Epic

[lean sentinel]

I want a free key though

[pastel pendant]

from which cdlc? i received some documentation on my DM's, so this is the list of upcoming CDLC's
1800s
ww1
ww2 from the years 1939 till 1945
eastern front of ww2
korean war
gulf war
post cold war
and modern present current day
and WW3

and by 1800s i mean the ENTIRETY of the 1800s

all of it.

[knotty ore]

no stoneage? (prehistoric and after ww3)

[pastel pendant]

would look jank in the engine

[knotty ore]

pfff

[ashen geyser]

Forgot Ships CDLC

[lean sentinel]

Yes

[pastel pendant]

they'll be added in the Estonian latvian lithuanian finnish and red army units and factions and etc factions units CDLC (literally the name provided to me)

[ashen geyser]

Ah okok good good

[pastel pendant]

alr?

alr.

[lean sentinel]

Also Emu war

[crude magnet]

lets go FDF

[ebon sedge]

Rolls off the tongue, I like it

[lean sentinel]

ELLFARAUAF CDLC

[ebon sedge]

I cant wait for the marketing images

[hallow parrot]

We have ELLFARAUAF in home!
ELLFARAUAF in home: Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz

[olive vortex]

Chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie w Szczebrzeszynie

[lucid wedge]

Bless you

[old sable]

how come there's no category for RF?

[hallow parrot]

Do you mean channel? It's been a month since it's up

[old sable]

I may be blind 🙃

or just dumb

I see GM, csla, sog and ws

so two missing actually

[hallow parrot]

#discord_server message

[old sable]

oh huh

thanks!

[hallow parrot]

So yeah, it's about dumbness, not on you, but Discord

[old sable]

Yeah, they change stuff too often

I made the mistake of updating the mobile app today, due to a bug I was having

and now I have new mobile discord.....

[hoary ridge]

are there any plans yet, when the more user friendly join function will be added? for the non cdlc owners... (msg OR option with buy/download compat data and not just a error)

[red saddle]

There are no plans announced yet

[glad holly]

Where do I find the discussion for the reaction forces CDLC?

Nevermind I found it lmfao

[ashen geyser]

https://discordapp.com/channels/105462288051380224/1215307577311756288

[inner lotus]

When destroying the tanks, they launch flares. Is it because of Global Mobilization?

[knotty ore]

flares?

do you have mods?

[sand ledge]

classic ace cook off

[inner lotus]

I read that GM had that feature, I think it's ACE.

Thank you

I have the brightest flares mod and destroyed tanks shine asf

[knotty ore]

mods dont always work together

[tepid lance]

Thats not a thing we did in GM.

[lethal comet]

anyone know how to uninstall the creator dlc?

[steady ravine]

via manage dlc on steam, just uncheck which cdlc u want to remove

[lethal comet]

thanks

[ebon yacht]

Is there any more CDLC in the pipeline or is this it for arma 3?

[karmic harness]

If there are more CDLCs in the works, then anyone who knows about them has signed an NDA that prevents them from telling you anything.
As a result, the only answer that you'll be able to get is "Perhaps 🐮 yes, perhaps 🐮 no"

[olive vortex]

[loud apex]

Well, according to SteamDB there are still 2 unknown DLCs out of the 3 that appeared around October 2023 ☝️ 🤓
(One of them being the Reaction Forces DLC)
But don't forget that nothing is confirmed until it's confirmed.

[ebon yacht]

2 more potentially

Zamn

[red saddle]

Or maybe its just a internal test DLC used for testing something CDLC related, and its not an actual CDLC

[ebon yacht]

Potentially

[loud apex]

Of course

[ebon yacht]

Would like to see another one tho cause arma is v good v epic as they say

[devout turtle]

We have a bugfix pack in “dev branch” that will be one of those. Other published dlc’s with an update are likely the other one

[ruby frost]

How do we restrict users joining server with CDLC? If only some of them come with CDLC, other people may see it as transparent gun and vehicles.
But we don't want to force other players to bring CDLC/compatible data.

I don't see any option to restrict using them in Faster.

@red saddle Bro, I need your wisdom.

[ruby frost]

Or, how do I force using specific CDLC/Compatible while whitelisting few mods?

[red saddle]

So you want to block people who have the DLC loaded.. Enable signature checks and don't allow the cdlc key?

[sinful cape]

wouldnt this need to be done with any mod.

[ruby frost]

I was confused. I checked keys folder and noticed when I do integrity check, the cdlc keys are automatically added to keys folder.

But if I make another folder in keys folder and put cdlc keys in that folder to restrict the mods, my game cannot start but crashes.

Is there way to prohibit those keys automatically added to the keys folder?

Seems like there is no reason to backup keys in same folder...

[ruby frost]

@red saddle If I set -mod=csla;, I can force people join with CDLC, but it seems like people without cdlc can join server even with compatibility data. Is it right?
https://imgur.com/EKKho3b
https://imgur.com/04Ogkez

How should I set CDLC as required mod while allowing people join with compat data?

[devout turtle]

Put the key in the folder

[ruby frost]

Yes I did.

I heard that players are not able to join server with compat data via launcher but joining in game is available. Is it intended action?

[knotty ore]

Don't think there should be a difference

[ruby frost]

I guess its a matter of ux... We don't have method to let people know that they can join with compatibility mod if new users are in our discord or community..

I think such unnecessary inconvenience frustrate server admins from using cdlc even with compat mod...

[devout turtle]

Yeah that’s been well discussed here before on many occasions. Nothing will be done.

Also in case you were not aware, compat data does not allow you to join the server if a creator dlc map is loaded for the mission. They can only play on vanilla or modded maps, not on unowned dlc ones.

[jaunty stump]

A CDLC on the falklands would be so cool

Or one on the troubles

There are a couple of Falkland’s mods but they are dubious quality- and basically nothing to do with the troubles/ IRA

[prime hollow]

The best you could hope for right now is if GM adds BAOR with the update they’re cooking.

[abstract ember]

Now i havent played all or even the majority of these CDLC's -but one of the main issues i have with them is using all kinds of custom animations for the advertised game -but seemingly no new ones that function in game. meaning, the scenes often look interesting with units taking defensive positions in numerous ways but in-game its the the same standard animations. id be far more likely to buy should they start including functional in game animations rather than just static cutscene -ones

[sinful cape]

got any examples? not sure what you mean

[abstract ember]

Well i just did a quick check of Shahara -you see soldiers walking in different animations, guards hanging with rifles leaning against shoulder, a guy in a mask with his back to the truck with his pistol in a certain way - meaning we never get real animation enhancements that occur during battle etc. Arma has been doing that since forever -rememeber the cutscene of Arma 2 Red harvest where the unit stacks door and bursts thru? Did we ever get that actually functioning animation in game? No. Its always the same. Devs have their own motion capture studio yet only give us fluff/idle/cutscene animations -which makes the battlefield extremely Same-y. it'd be nice to buy a dLDC with actual varied animations taking place in and around battle. How aboutdifferent walks for different soldiers? How about defensive postures and blind firing? We've seen modders like Smookie and WebKnight do it -even without a motion capture studio -why isnt it never official advanced?

[sinful cape]

ofc those animations are in the game

[abstract ember]

But do they occur dynamiclly or in battle? Not just as a backdrop

[sinful cape]

obviously you cant override player animations with those, since they would lock you into a sequence

[abstract ember]

thats my point

no i mean NPCs

[sinful cape]

you can script it if you need it

[abstract ember]

thats insane

[sinful cape]

that's game dev

[abstract ember]

you obviously dont get my point

[sinful cape]

i get your point, but it's unrealistic

[abstract ember]

but they could is my point. Others have done it WITHOUT a studio

you can to

you just choose not to

hence my complaint

[sinful cape]

arma animation system is very stiff. if this would be easy to do, BI would have done it themselves

[abstract ember]

have you seeen webknights?

[sinful cape]

yes, my point still stands

[abstract ember]

Smookie had blind fire in arma 2

Again, BI chooses not to. They take the path of least resistence

[sinful cape]

there's crapton of technical reasons for why things are the way they are

[abstract ember]

as does mine

[sinful cape]

also animations are super expensive, expecting cdlcs to do something with animations that not even BI did is insane 😄

[abstract ember]

i kmow why. Ive been neck deep in the code as long as you if not longer

[sinful cape]

ok, cool

[abstract ember]

Again. WebKnight

[sinful cape]

then why havent you done it yet

[abstract ember]

no budget

[sinful cape]

his budget is time

[abstract ember]

because i work on AI

[sinful cape]

those animations would have to be tied to AI. seems right up your alley

[abstract ember]

look man, make all the excuses you want. I told you my complaint in priorities of the dlcs.

They are tied, buts thats not the scope i work at

[sinful cape]

cool

[abstract ember]

plus i dont have a motion studio like BI does

Also I did add real time reaction/animation to my one mod -that being Spec Ops will use quick Evasive maneuvers when a gun pointed at them in CQB. My area is almost exclusively Ai Perception/Spotting and startled reactions. And yes it did take a long time. But id expect a Pro team to try and be more innovative. Basically we have a cool looking trailers and cutscenes de-volving into the same old every unit running around with sights up doing their various chicken dance routine. And yes, i call BI out on this as well. Been way too same-y for years

[random crane]

it basically boils down to "making character animations for arma 3 is really hard and no one has the skills to do such a complex system anymore, if ever"

so lost knowledge

idk what you think a cdlc team is like but it's tiny studios with very limited resources

and by tiny i mean like 1-2 guys as core team with some freelancers attached

the fact that you can point to just a single mod that overhauls character anims the way you like (idk what webknight's mod does) for a game that's about to be 11 years old should tell you how exceptional that is

[sinful cape]

webknight has some really good animation work, but yes, he's like 1 of 2 people who have the skills to do that in the arma engine and have it not look like total jank.

considering the quality of his work, i would blindly assume that he's really expensive to hire (if he even takes jobs from cdlc teams, i have no idea, maybe he just likes to do his own stuff).

[abstract ember]

Hes not the only one. Yes i know its "difficult" but that doesnt excuse some advancement -ANY advancement. First off, WebKnight didnt start it , it was a guy who did a grappling mod (very well done chokes btw) that inspired him. VCOM first invented AI that can vault fences on their own as well as multiple people creating the "Jump/Vault" like Zooloo75 and others long ago. Like my own example as well as Smookies, it simply aint true. Yes, I know its hard, but to some some lone modder can pull off all of this due to "time" as compared to a multi hundred million dollar company (yes, im blaming Bi as they create the trend) -is just lame and utterly short sighted

[sinful cape]

you started talking about cdlcs and now suddenly we are in multi hundred million dollar company area

[abstract ember]

Pretty simple, just like solus of slx magic (ofp mod) was recruited for what seemed to be OFP magic, recruit this kind of talent to pull the rear on this stale aspect of the game

[abstract ember]

Thats why i specifically made th disclaimer- surely you're intelligent enough to make the distinction

[sinful cape]

you are expecting stuff from cdlcs that just isnt in their budget

i mean, someone can prove me wrong and do it.

after all, what do i know.

[abstract ember]

or their specific skillset. I know about Prairie fire -they could have made innovative choices they chose to decline

[sinful cape]

why did they decline those? maybe because they evaluated the costs and decided against it, i dunno 😄 (pure guessing)

[abstract ember]

nope -work was already done for them by a talented modder im friends with

but i digress -hence the NDA

[sinful cape]

still. sog is a big exception. they had a humungous budget, which we - as example - for ws and rf didn't have and never will have.

to circle back to the beginning where you pointed out ws as an example

[abstract ember]

Well - i never pointed out your specific one - it was you who came in to challenge me so i quickly briefed your trailer as I know -they all do that. So yo utook it personally - i was merely stating that i dont support the CLDC nor DLC's because of this. never a personal shot at you

[sinful cape]

challenge you? bro i just asked for examples because i had no idea wtf you were talking about 😄

[abstract ember]

You wanted an example -hence i provided

well

now ya know

[sinful cape]

and i tried to explain to you why your request is not very realistic to happen

but whatever 😄 you know better

[abstract ember]

and iresponded with many illustrious exmples of why they could and should. Youre just taking this personally. This fault lies mostly wiith Bi as i said. Had i come into WS thread and stated this -well, than youd have a point.

but i didnt

[sinful cape]

give me the money for it and i'll try to find someone to do it, lol

but no promises

[abstract ember]

Ask BI, they cn afford it and they should further this development.

[sinful cape]

but that's not how cdlc work

[abstract ember]

Neither does asking Froggy

[sinful cape]

anyways. whatever. getting sidetracked here, i actually dont really care

[abstract ember]

get it

[sinful cape]

so when is your stuff getting released?

just curious how it's going to look

always like to see new stuff in the arma engine

[abstract ember]

I only released to my friends -i didnt wasnt able to keep it totally bug free. https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/205892-ego/. i also joined nother team who have been working on pure open world mesh for years now.

but you can see the features and proof of conept i was going for way back then

[sinful cape]

what kind of bugs were there?

[abstract ember]

The amount of features i was going for was too vast - i got hit with feature creep. Mostly just needed long script re-writings to get rid of debugs etc.. it just wasnt clean enough for release and maintenance

[sinful cape]

i see

[abstract ember]

Also optimization as I had constant loops running on all units to keep up to date info of there whereebouts -indoors, outdoors, running, hiding in shadow etc

Anyway -sorry if i turned aggro - its really meant for BI development, I just get reminded everytime i see a new trailer

[sinful cape]

dont think i would ever put such a huge overhaul system into a cdlc. source of bugs is way too big, potential influence on performance too high, and then a huge risk of incompatibility with lots of other mods. even simple stuff can already conflict and cause issues. this all will be a huge pain to handle and maintain.

[abstract ember]

also im a SP only guy

[sinful cape]

we already scrapped smaller ideas for similar concerns

[abstract ember]

MP would be nightmare for that

[sinful cape]

it reminds me of famous "ai cdlc" idea, which very likely would be a terrible thing to do

[abstract ember]

I would love a SP version of that. Im just not sure the SP base is still large enough. But then to slowly gently merge that functionality to PVE

[olive vortex]

past animation work which is splendid his stuff is total spaghetti of sqf code that wouldn't go past any reasonable QA process. And is beyond unreadable and unmaintable. That is fine in mods but not in paid product.

[abstract ember]

Well apparently BI reached out to him and he declined -so im not so sure about that

I think the topic has gone far enough -ultimately its BI that should lead the charge into creating a much more robust battlefield. Varying animations for injured, over encumbered walking and scrambling for cover is not an insane thing to ask the worlds #1 Mil-tac game after 20 years

[sinful cape]

considering how stiff the animation system is (can't even cancel healing / repair animations), i still believe it is not as easy as you think. 🫣

[devout turtle]

The entire system engineering doesn’t allow for easy changes, if any.

Mods are cool for proof of concept but they wouldn’t likely pass QA because once you begin robustly testing all use cases you start to reveal the flaws in the design which make the “improvement” untenable.

And reengineering a system with already thousands of interconnected animations built up over a decade, and having it still work with 70,000 mods on the workshop… it’s not a task anyone would agree to undertake.

It’s simply impossible.

We added handsignals, melee, and dragging and carrying.

we wanted to add other things but the system is really not very flexible.

Whiplash and polpox have some great static animation mods for people making screenshots, but making all of those poses somehow dynamic is a very complicated job, just in concept, but then somehow plugging the anims into the AI and player action system, well it’s more than a years work. And it still wouldnt likely pass QA due to unforeseen jank.

Essentially youre howling in the wind with your complaint.

I wonder if any other game has an animation system where a third party can come along and change it in this way and it works? Seems unlikely but id like to understand the architecture used if it does exist

[random crane]

well it does in fact excuse no advancements, CDLC operate with incredibly small budgets and they can't afford to dump a ton of time on a risky feature that ultimately may get cut by BI during QA because it's unreliable.
on top of this there's the skillset issue, yes, which is a substantial obstacle because having to rely on a freelancer/external who does the animations for you means that you're at the mercy of someone else's commitments and schedule (on top of the fact that animators capable of complex tasks for A3 like what you're describing are simply gone).

[steady ravine]

there you go, you got 2 answer from 2 CLDC lead dev

+2 Vets

[hallow parrot]

I TBH wouldn't mind to make such very big animation project if I have enough money, time and passion, (yeah I only know I recently got a clue how to make a nice RTM) but if it could be very unreliable and hard to make any compatibility with anything, that'd be a big commercially setback real quick, as most of A3 players rely on their gameplay over tons of scripted features and Mods

[random crane]

ummm ackchually 🤓 we're all cdlc devs

[tepid lance]

Solus mentioned. Legit good dude. He was my intro into all the anim work I eventually learned how to do and produce the workflows and tools involved in following iterations and generations.

[steady ravine]

can i be one

[knotty ore]

There are restrictions on how much scripted solutions cdlc makes and they can have very little jank unlike mods that make them. Also sogpf provided about 2million dollars (if I recall right) worth of content and has not yet got all of that investment back.

How you say "chose not to" really rubs me the wrong way

[devout turtle]

so speaks our master animator...

I was trying to ignore the whiff of entitlement and focus on the technical response hehe

basically we'd all love a game that has Arma's vast battlefield simulator, in land, sea and air, with eden editor and live zeus commander, but also we'd all like new AI and movements and optics and stealth mechanics, and popular game modes with AAA polish, and so on and so on.

To make Arma (4?) like that you'd need to invest $100m+

We're moving into a different world now with UE5, focusing on single player and stealth, with fluid mocapped movements and complex lodded AI behaviours, but it won't be anything like Arma. We'll still play and mod Arma for that.

[knotty ore]

It sometimes gets to me that there are discussion where it's said that people who have spent whatever time to learn to do X should do something (modding Arma for 10 years and sure I can quite confidently do all kinds of fancy things with the animation system)

Nobody has anything to say what people should do in this format unless people is themselves and they say I'm gonna spend time to learn to do this.

The public pressure has already pushed out a looooot of talent out of the scene and for example with the animations I can probably count the people who mess with it actively and any deeper than reload animations (you guys rock too though) with one hand.

[tepid lance]

The Animation system is the probably the most complex system in Arma 3 there is that can be modded. The crowning achievement there is for anyone to bring in custom animations on a custom skeleton for a custom character. I.e new animals, monsters or other unworldly abominations. And of course dinosaurs. 😁

[abstract ember]

First of -since youve decided to continue the discussion -I never said it was "easy" - I said it was doable and not some impossible unrreachable achievement. Everyone is speaking in vague terms, "100million+ to get right" etc. Ridiculous. Again, I have stated ultimately it starts with BI (read that again.Digest it), but as modders invented the Vault animation before they did despite the janky and tough animation system, they 've finally decided to test the water and add it themselves. Was it approaching the Void of Insanity to strive for this? -for Christs sakes no. If youve been following Arma progress as far as "functional animations" , the Devs basically decided to feature lock it after they gave Ai the ability to crawl under fences. not because anything more is "near impossible", thats just their business decision of cost productivity and "scope" Firing from vehicles was the next pseudo one and really the last until Reforger. What i am and have always suggest is for BI to incrementally keep adding functional animations - varied walks and runs to negate the Flock of Birds effect -these are not impossible standards so everyone crying Mary here needs to check their collective panties.

[sinful cape]

kay

[hallow parrot]

Technically possible doesn't mean durable and reliable that can satisfy majority of situation

[abstract ember]

Are you seriously telling me that BI cant achieve multiple Walks and Run aninimations that are durable? Sorry but i dont buy it for a second

[hallow parrot]

Yes. GM even failed to do it

[abstract ember]

The game itself has always had a Jank quality to it . Do you remember Smookies pack from Arma2?

[hallow parrot]

No. Never heard of

Also, BI doesn't make CDLCs

[abstract ember]

Read again my post. For the fifth and final time -IT Starts with BI

And he was amodder that created alternate firing positions such as the prone lean to's as well as Blind fire

They hired him

and incorporated his Lean to positions from prone in Arma 3

[hallow parrot]

Ah well. Just recalled that Mod

[hard mauve]

You're entitled to your opinion but you're ploughing a lonely furrow with everyone else so far disagreeing with you, as far as saying that CDLC's should have included new dynamic animations.

[abstract ember]

i dont mind being the "lone objector" - sometimes things need to be said.

As a consumer -I would be the first to buy one that was innovative in that aspect

[hard mauve]

I'm sure we'd all like to see them too, but having heard from at least two dlc leads that it wasn't feasible, you have some qualified answers.

[noble shuttle]

eh what GM did was a bit different as it was a different action set

[hallow parrot]

Three, even

[abstract ember]

$100million+ - yeah thats a legit truthful answer...

[noble shuttle]

and tbh it was very much possible for it to be implemented but it would have needed programmer support from BI

[hallow parrot]

Which is not possible at this point

Or, unlikely

[abstract ember]

if you read thru the posts - i always stated BI has failed in this aspect and the CLDC's follow suit. Meaning they look interesting in their trailers and ads -but the game is always the same exact playthru the only disparity being units, gear and environment

[abstract ember]

This is true and why I say BI has badly neglected this aspect

[noble shuttle]

walk/run animation variations are potentially possible as the animation system does allow for it (i think, there's the variantAI etc arrays) but as HG and mondkalb said the animation 'tree'/system in arma is a very unknown beast that not many modders have experience with - and then you have to consider mocap animation costs, and the import of such animations

[abstract ember]

They have their own Mocap studio. And they are not a poor, solo indie Dev. Honestly, think back to OFP in which we had a melee functionality 'Buttstroke" - sure it was jank but it was something. They took that away and just left zero ability for Melee until Reforeger. A ridiculous thing to do.

Modders have shown proof of concept -that much more was possible even without a Mocap studio.

[hallow parrot]

I think I see something you misunderstood. BI does not provide any technical supports to make CDLC

[abstract ember]

Because the discussion drifts back and forth between BI and CDLCs way too often -I ll state for the 6th time -It starts with BI. BUT, CDLCs could also push innovation in this area. My whole point being why I dont support them , and what would have made me fully support them. that is all.

Its the same with BI moving away from fully SP to more PVE - they started it, many CDLC's followed it

[knotty ore]

No cdlcs don't have leeway to push it.

They would have to get that approved at pitch stage

And BI is likely to not approve cdlcs built around a new "core mechanic"

It is completely unrealistic idea.

But you can make such a pitch if you doubt the people who make cdlcs

[abstract ember]

this is such a lame response- "Do it yourself". Ill check out now

[devout turtle]

Hopefully for a looong time

We answered your question.
Maybe take it up with BI outside of the creator dlc discussion thread

[abstract ember]

LOL -your still a rude old codger -remember, I didnt enter anyones personal CDLC space and make my complaint. I came into general. You actually answered nothing except your absurd fallacy of needing "100Million dollars" to implement ANY new functional animations. That level of ridiculous renders the rest of what you said of low credibility

[devout turtle]

You misread what i wrote to suit your own purposes. I was talking about making an arma scale game with all the awesome AI and animation features that everyone wants - the shangri la of game design. We all aim for what we can withon a scope of a sensible investable budget. Now off you go to annoy some other people with your demands.

[red saddle]

He really didn't, you're just taking it out of context. If you can't talk without insults then we can show you the door

[abstract ember]

because i called him rude? Ok. Ive tried ending the conversation multiple times yet people keep wanting to challenge my opinion which is totally valid. Like i said before -over and out

[red saddle]

No because you called him a codger.
If you wanted to end the conversation, why are you still replying

[abstract ember]

fair enough

Because i thought it was a topic worthy of discussion - but apparently not

[devout turtle]

We discussed it

[random crane]

all the people you're talking to have real experience developing CDLCs (and more) and know what is possible and what isn't, is it really so hard to believe that it doesn't just boil down to "being ambitious"?

[devout turtle]

You just didnt like the response - which was considered and developed by a boatload of arma talent here

[random crane]

you got plenty of explanations why what you're asking is not doable

[devout turtle]

I wasn’t planning to respond at all when i saw the original post because it was very poorly framed and quite insulting. In the end a whole bunch of us posted our thoughts - and that was interesting to share and see if we had a consensus, and we did.

[pastel pendant]

i wanna see these CDLCs:
1800s
ww1
ww2 from the years 1939 till 1945
eastern front of ww2
korean war
gulf war
post cold war
and modern present current day
and WW3

[devout turtle]

Oh and we have melee in our dlc

As does SPE

[devout turtle]

Ok we’ll get right on that.

[pastel pendant]

omg thx

[pastel pendant]

finally someone who listens

[devout turtle]

Oh damn sorry… it’s vietnam again

[pastel pendant]

aah hell naw, that's not the 1800s cdlc

[devout turtle]

Clothing that gets wet though…

Hella nice shaders

[tepid lance]

Never failed. Decided that the script hackery is not worth the effect. 😉 In line with our general strategy to reduce scripted systems overall for ease of long term feasibility.

Even had prototypes of animations and actions of soldiers taking their helmets off and putting camo onto those. 😁

Proof of concepts and all, but ultimately decided it didn't fit into the overall vision of "Seamless integration into Vanilla"

[devout turtle]

Wish we could play with your hipfiring system

We have an mg42 and a m1919a6 that would enjoy it

[tepid lance]

It all hinges on one eventhandler to make it a nice implementation that doesnt rely on per frame loops. 😦

[sinful cape]

that cant be added?

[devout turtle]

Id love to have an m79 in the launcher slot too

Hey maybe we can form a super team to tackle such issues lol

Maybe that guy can cause an amazing outcome for all of arma

[knotty ore]

Arma 3.5?

[sinful cape]

i rather have dayz renderer in a3 than anything else 😄

[devout turtle]

No budgets, not much support resourcing, no appetite for difficult jank-ridden solutions in a paid product… this is partly why we moved to making a mod to allow us to dick around a bit more

[devout turtle]

Once you go full PBR, there’s NO going back man

Well except for this

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19jPeYhIkqfWkrqVYHYJtCqdW9Ge9L6q9/view?usp=drivesdk

My son made that model - proud dad moment

Finally, a weapon to rival the Vertexmacht spud gun

[tepid lance]

Not by me, needs a BI dev to actually code it.