other_ip_topics

[prime pollen]

Doesn’t rhs get to have a higher data limit on their mod or is that hearsay

[autumn brook]

that is false

[meager fractal]

source?

[dark tulip]

All I see is a lot of false information being shared as "facts", and then claim something which is completely unrelated to the topic 🤷

But I guess that's the average user on the internet anyway...

[meager fractal]

check Brandolini's Law please, otherwise it's going to take some time…

[coral juniper]

Nope

They were exploiting a bug at some point, which got fixed

(From what I know)

[prime pollen]

What about rhs getting the new character rig days before anyone else?

That’s hearsay as well I suppose?

[meager fractal]

!mute @prime pollen 1d rumours cooldown, really

[bright bramble]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @prime pollen!! Ò_Ó
karnage427#0000 now has 3 infractions.

[trim peak]

If my memory serves me right that did not happen.

[zenith turret]

ask your staff

the modding community is probably more informed than you guys want or like

[meager fractal]

yeah, see, no extra permission @zenith turret

[near swallow]

Isn’t that just them exploiting a bug and not getting special treatment?

[meager fractal]

no problem with free-flowing information

[near swallow]

Well this debate went nowhere

It’s a cycle lmao

[covert bear]

It never does, some people like to find/speculate about things that just don't exist

[meager fractal]

"RHS trial for a thing RHS did not commit goes nowhere":

[zenith turret]

i know if i exploited some bug, the story would probably be very different

[meager fractal]

please try
still, no extra space permission

[near swallow]

Here’s the cycle from my perspective:
-rhs does something/ something involving rhs happens
-anti rhs people get angry
-bans happen
-more anger
-no clear point
-repeat steps

[covert bear]

It doesn't need to involve RHS for people to be mad at RHS 😂
some random mod gets banned for stuff and people cry RHS didn't get nuked bc one of their devs did something bad in his personal project unrelated to RHS

[zenith turret]

so we're all just gonna ignore this comment? - sorry vergy

[near swallow]

Well I’m gonna hide in my fallout shelter until this ends

[zealous ore]

in this particular case, it also has nothing to do with RHS as a group, or any of RHS mods…so no idea what’s up with that

[near swallow]

Haters gonna hate

[meager fractal]

doesn't mean RHS would have a free pass for any malware they would try to sneak - not that they ever wanted or did so in the end, think what you like - just don't slam it here as truth

[rancid stone]

As an outsider, I think rhs shot themselves in the foot when they decided to keep a banned modder on the team and chose not to make a statement about it, leaving people to wildly speculate.

[zenith turret]

change channel name to ip-optics

[meager fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/lol-gif-11059538064120696238

enough off-topic for the year, let's stahp

[zealous ore]

not really the truth either.
He left on his own, just like vergy did.

[zenith turret]

after the majority voted to not kick him

[vast stump]

since you keep probing this do you know if the guys at whats it? Liberty thingy vote for stop their scemes or not

since these issues seem to be linked here all the time

[zenith turret]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1277440129589313596/1340142067619332146/Stolenballs.gif

[zealous ore]

also not really what the vote was about. and also not sure why some of you are so concerned with what happens on a private discord server, with zero effect on the mods RHS as a group publishes for free on the workshop.

[meager fractal]

ta-daaa
intention matters?

[zenith turret]

all the evidence of rhs bias exists inside this discord, its only a matter of time before somebody collects it all and presents it

that being said, im done. time to get to work

[trim peak]

That’s exactly what the vote was for. To ask him to step down and to make a public announcement…

[tepid lion]

Again could we pay attention to this please instead of ignoring Vergy.

[coral juniper]

Again, you are talking like if the company were just a few devs

Not every dev knows from everything

They are only hired to perform their functions and that is it.

The green names you see here, are devs that can either be artists, community managers, programmers, etc

[coral juniper]

Pay attention to what I said after 🙂

[trim peak]

I really want to chime in here on that topic but I’m afraid of the shit storm it may cause lol

[tepid lion]

That’s what I’m trying to avoid as well. I have much more than I’d like to say here.

There’s people who aren’t modders or have no part or care here and are just purely to add fuel to the fire.

[coral juniper]

You can use my dms

You won't get muted there

Thing is that people get muted here because this is for IP rights

Not for all this discourse

If anything the change on something will end up on my side

Which is why I keep saying that the point of contact is me, and that my dms are always open

And if I miss a DM, then you can always ping me here to check it

[near swallow]

I think I sent you a dm about a violation of tos/ server Eula a while back

I’ve not had a response yet so I think you’ve missed it

[hot wolf]

Who cares. This isn’t a court of law. They can present it all they want. RHS has done more for ArmA than most of the other mods combined. I hope they get bias.

[normal pond]

Might be worth reminding someone very, very vocal here this.

[jolly jewel]

oh no i have to go cry now because @rugged prawn left a clown emoji on my message. More RHS favouritism lmao! jkjk

[rugged prawn]

There we go, show us how you fight for the free and the oppressed

Show us your true nature

[jolly jewel]

Yes I must! i must start first by insulting people in a discord thread then i can truly be free

https://tenor.com/view/xxiisoul-thanos-gif-23843096

[vast stump]

maybe you two had enough fun now.

[rugged prawn]

If you spent half the time learning how to mod that you do plotting these time wasting squabbles you would probably actually make something useful

[jolly jewel]

rrrriiiiggghhhhhtttt

[rugged prawn]

On second thought maybe not

[jolly jewel]

yout right i can brag to all my friends i made a t shirt

classic Soul, Just go an throw a tantrum

[vast stump]

!mute @rugged prawn @rugged prawn 1d offtopic squabbling in #other_ip_topics

[jolly jewel]

oh boy

[bright bramble]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @rugged prawn!! Ò_Ó
soul_assassin#0000 now has 2 infractions.

[jolly jewel]

bye guys lol

[vast stump]

oh was supposed to be you too

[jolly jewel]

ik

i understand

no worry

[vast stump]

!mute @jolly jewel 1d offtopic squabbling in ⁠other_ip_topics

[bright bramble]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @jolly jewel!! Ò_Ó
mortalisares#0000 now has 9 infractions.

[vast stump]

Im guessing next time there is the same urge, close discord thanks.

[meager fractal]

b-but he was RHS, how could you not give him free range - we had evidence!
haaah, calm.

[near swallow]

Someone needs to make an ad for noise cancellation headphones with these chat logs

It’d legit be perfect

[inland sphinx]

YOU! are one to talk.

!whois 527024575515459584 105577187570094080

[bright bramble]

@jolly jewel: 527024575515459584 | mortalisares#0000
Account created at: 2018-12-25_07:27:30 UTC
Joined the server: 2023-03-21_02:28:02 UTC
Roles: @-everyone, muted and @user
Muted until: 2025-05-29_19:35:04 UTC
2 known usernames: Mortalis Ares and mortalisares
0 known nickname: None
They have 10 warnings, with these notes:
1) 2022-09-18: Please take a very good look at our #rules Advertising in #communities_xbox is 1x per 14 days per community, 3 post within 48 hours is not 1x per 14 days and considered spamming (see the #rules what consequences that eventually can have!).
2) 2022-09-25: once again please take a look at our #rules, advertising in #communities_xbox is 1x per 14 days, 8 days is not 14.
3) 2023-03-19: Muted for 1 day with reason: - offtopic in RHS topic / failling to follow moderator's instructions - read the #rules + pinned messages
4) 2023-03-21: unneeded spam in multiple addon topics
5) 2023-08-27: flaming / personal attacks and name calling is not allowed on this discord server - see #rules
6) 2023-11-14: abusive language, name calling, targetd insults, please re-read our #rules
7) 2024-09-04: Muted for 1 hour with reason: as promised. If anyone wants to report an issue to moderators, they are free to use #discord_tickets.
8) 2025-02-11: Muted for 1 day with reason: offtopic in ip rights channel
9) 2025-05-28: Muted for 1 day with reason: offtopic squabbling in ⁠other_ip_topics
10) 2025-05-28: name-calling, please re-read our #rules

@rugged prawn: 105577187570094080 | soul_assassin#0000
Account created at: 2015-10-19_08:06:03 UTC
Joined the server: 2015-10-19_08:06:03 UTC
Roles: @-everyone, @veteran, muted, RHS team, hide : PC-linux and hide : Arma 3

[bright bramble]

Muted until: 2025-05-29_19:34:31 UTC
1 known username: Soul_Assassin
1 known nickname: [RHS] Soul_Assassin
They have 3 warnings, with these notes:
1) 2023-08-27: responding aggressively to flaming post. Personal attacks are not allowed even the the guy deserves it.
2) 2025-05-28: Muted for 1 day with reason: offtopic squabbling in #other_ip_topics
3) 2025-05-28: insulting emoji reactions, insults, name-calling, please re-read our #rules

[inland sphinx]

"Mods are not doing anything about what he did! See! Proof of favoritism towards RHS"

Meanwhile, mods warned the RHS guy for what he did. Just no-one saw it because thats not done in public.
How about you finally stop this bullcrap of making false assumptions and posting them as fact, its getting really annyoing.

This I don't know what to call this is starting to get on my nerves.

A group of people who violated the rules, together boast about wanting to intentionally keep violating the rules that they were banned for (and make several attempts to do so).
is set equal to
one guy who on his own, independent of the group he's also working with, violated the rules on a mod that is independent of the group. Says that he wasn't aware of it being bad, but understands the reason and fully accepts his ban without even arguing about it.

That is not the f'ing same and you guys know that. You just have some other issue with RHS, and are grasping at straws you can use to rile people up against them.

If you just want to flame or rile people up, do it somewhere F'ing else.

[rancid stone]

holy crap, 10 infractions? is there no limit?

[inland sphinx]

There is no count limit. We handle it based on history/frequency, and how lenient we want to be.

[rancid stone]

I cant believe all that escalated from an emoji response 🤦‍♂️

[trim peak]

Can you do me? I’m curious 😅🤣

[inland sphinx]

1 hour tempmute. Because you replied to something after someone said "everyone who replies here will get muted".
That's all

[trim peak]

Well that’s boring.. 🤣

[near swallow]

Mine is offtopic stuff and flaming

It’s not too difficult to check for urself

[abstract crest]

Damn, times have changed, I got banned years ago (can't remember when but FM was still a mod then) just for calling one of the Blue Mafia a c___ 🤣

Think that was my first infraction... And I took the ban because I deserved it (but they deserved being called that lol)

Two week ban iirc

[arctic prairie]

Crazy statement.

[frozen bramble]

It really is tho. I feel rhs has ruined the community more than help. But to not be held to he same standard as other mod authors is just sad

[coral juniper]

My question is, where is this "different standard" that you see is?

Usually what I see people complaining about is them using an IRL brand for some equipment, while other mods have been sanctioned for it.
Why is RHS different?. Because they obtained permission from said brand. That is the difference.

It's the same case with another modder here that obtained permission.

They are quite careful with what they put in the workshop, that is why all accusations always fall flat. As they always end up being misinformed.

And when they report something, it goes fast because they provide a proper actionable report. Which reduces the amount of proper research that has to be done to action on it.

It's not that their reports have priority, in fact there are some reports from them from months ago that has not been actioned on yet due to some missing info here or further development needed.

It's a team that takes time to do some things properly which speeds processes for us, that is it. If another modder does the same then the same would happen.

[frozen bramble]

All I'm am saying is that rhs is given favoritism. Which I see as wrong. Just going off jedi's comment.

[coral juniper]

But can you pin point it?

Or you are just stating it baseless?

How do you want us to handle it if you do not tell what you saw?

There are lots of rumors that are not true, just saying.

But they keep being repeated over and over

[small hamlet]

Rumouring something into existence is in itself a problem tbh.

It does seem like a bit of a black hole of a topic at this stage, though.

[coral juniper]

Company wise, officially there is no favoritism.

There are BI devs that work with other teams, they are free to mod however they want on their free time

That does not mean nor link the company to those

Nor represent some favoritism.

The company is big, and the devs that are tied to RHS, ACE, etc are not even 1% of it

It's like tying google to some other group because 5 developers in there engaged into something.

[small hamlet]

It's the same at a lot of companies tbh.

There's a lot of Bethesda staff that are active in their respective modding communities that really only make up a fraction of the company.

And that's before you get to the inverse, i.e. the modders that work on a contract basis for the company.

[celest sundial]

In any case, any modding work done by employees in their free time is under even more heavy observation as everyone tries not to put their employer into a bad light due to their out of work activities. So with that e.g. RHS is at a slight disadvantage even.

[small hamlet]

That's where social media policies for staff start to come into play, although my general experience with those I've had to adhere by has been "there's a lot of loop holes in this."

[frozen bramble]

Nah just stating that it is a wild comment to say that rhs has done more for the community. It's an opinion just as mine is an opinion. You can say there is no favoritism all you want. It would be false.

However and this goes off topic, we shouldn't even be having this conversation as mods should have been so far on the back burner for this game that they would of been a sticky note on someone's computer with a question mark. Make your full road map, then bug fix it , then think about adding mods. Atleast then when people complain. You could say "well there a really good experience over in vanilla "

Just a viewpoint and agreeing with a fellow community member.

[meager fractal]

so moving goal posts.

next topic please!

[wild copper]

Regardless of the favoritism stuff, saying Bohemia don't care about mods is just false.

They built their own infrastructure to host mods. They have released a pretty comprehensive series on how to mod in Reforger. They have released one of the most comprehensive modding tools I know of. They have put up job postings for people specifically to moderate and help maintain the quality of the workshop. They got Sony of all companies to agree to allow mods. They're hosting a $100k prizepool mod competition. They have a Discord with prolific mod makers so they can communitcate changes with them before big game updates come out and get feedback.

Most importantly, they actually let us discuss IP rights and the moderation process in these channels. Although it often turns into a shitshow, I like that we can directly ask BI employees why certain things are the way they are. I like that transparency. They don't have to do that, and it probably costs them more time than it's worth.

Don't get me wrong, I disagree with a LOT of stuff BI does in regards to mods and their moderation, and I think there's things they could be doing better, but saying they don't care is plain silly.

[frozen bramble]

Can I ask when I said they didn't care. I said they shouldn't have cared about mods till vanilla had all features of road map and was bug fixed.

[autumn brook]

you would be extremly hard pressed to find a company with a modding department / focus as much as bohemia throughout their games especially with how active mario is (being able to actually contact someone in a company and having documentation is generally a very high goal)

[frozen bramble]

Agreed

[wild copper]

Mods should have been so far on the back burner for this game that they would of been a sticky note on someone's computer with a question mark.

Please tell me how this doesn't translate to saying they don't care?

[meager fractal]

you also stated

rhs is given favoritism
and were unable (twice) to pinpoint it.

I'd like this topic to be dropped now as no new elements were brought.
let's get all back to the INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY topic from now.

[frozen bramble]

Where are the words. BI does not care about mods. If you can tell me where you see those words then I will tell you your right. However. Since I don't see them 🤷‍♂️

[meager fractal]

!ban @frozen bramble 30d emoji spam and not following moderator's instructions - buh-bai

[bright bramble]

*fires them railguns at @frozen bramble* Ò_Ó
kwitt#0000 now has 2 infractions.

[arctic prairie]

30 days for emoji spam. Seems like a petty reason

[meager fractal]

I didn't ask!

[oak hare]

Reading this was entertaining. Feel like there should be favouritism; by my estimation RHS driven at least a couple of million euros in sales of ARMA games. If it were my company I would favor the guys that did that for me.

[meager fractal]

what I mostly see is people mixing topics in pair:

• it's not uncommon for a company to help its biggest modders

• this does not mean if RHS did a EULA breach that we would turn a blind eye

• an RHS member did a EULA-breaching thing on his side and got punished for it

• RHS as a project was not aware nor involved in any way

it's all about "the rippers/monetisers (who won't stand down, confirmed by them) were all taken down" - yes, because the whole project and team was about that
so nothing in common

haters gonna hate, but RHS is here to stay until they actually do something bad 🤷‍♂️

as it has nothing to do in #ip_rights_violations or #other_ip_topics, this RHS hatetrain shalt stop at the station

[remote comet]

What the hell happened here D:

[meager fractal]

the usual cringe

[remote comet]

That happening in any other game channel is "usual". Here it's just bizzare

[pliant oracle]

another footnote in this server history

[strong stirrup]

Whats the general process for using structures and props from other mods on your own map in Reforger? Assuming all mods that I'd be using assets from have either an APL or APL-ND, do I need the mod-authors' permissions to use those assets, or can I just use them so long as I provide the appropriate attributions? Additionally, for the APL-ND, does that prohibit putting, say, a helicopter pad on the roof of an APL-ND covered building on my map? As in, it cannot be modified in any way, even if that modification is placing a base-game asset in one room of that building for that specific map, or is it more in regards to making a derivative of that building and bundling that derivative in another asset pack?

[arctic prairie]

I don’t condone the RHS hate but like I stated in a post yesterday people who have opinions on a certain topic gets silenced by moderators in the discord and it’s been like that for years now. Yes, there’s a few people who don’t contribute to the conversation. I’ll drop it here but leaves a bad taste in my mouth when it comes the future of the game.

Also thank you for the clarification on the RHS situation.

[meager fractal]

it's nothing about having opinions really - people can think and express what they want within the limit of the #rules.
however, intellectual property channels tend to have a certain group of people that come and push and insist even when they get proven wrong, they cycle back.
emoji spam is not the full reason here - it was insisting on having the last word and putting themselves as victims at the same time (messages I deleted)
as for the future of the game (or modding), I don't think the EULA or TOS are prohibiting having a bright one.

Thanks for your (civil) feedback about it, unfortunately this channel is not hosting these enough 🍻

[minor cove]

You are a guest on this discord, if moderators advise you multiple times to stop and you ignore it, they have all the rights to throw you out.
It's not like the games license, includes access to this discord.

[quick wigeon]

As far as I understand the licenses, and someone may have corrections to add:
APL: Use how you want. provide attribuition
APL-ND: You must get permission for use, if you have permission for using the building in a map, then adding a helipad by adding other assets should have no issues. Modifiying the building asset directly would require separate permission.
APL-SA: Sharealike applies to anything using it

[abstract crest]

Also is a discord with 22K people, so rules do have to be enforced

[strong stirrup]

Got it, thank you!

[quick wigeon]

I think all of the APL licenses need attribution, and even if the license doesn't need it, it's still good to have attributions/credits someplace

[strong stirrup]

For sure, yeah. I just wasn't sure about whether permission to use the assets was required, mostly

[vast stump]

100k+

[abstract crest]

Oh yeah, was just counting online 🤦

[quick wigeon]

If you aren't certain, asking is better
If they didn't post a license, or terms of use, or something saying use freely. always ask

[abstract crest]

Er, no license means full restriction, not that it is free to do what you want

[fiery egret]

That's correct, that why Raven said "ask always" 🙂 (not "anyways" 😉 )

[abstract crest]

Ah, my bad, read that sentence wrong in my head 😦

[fiery egret]

Me too, I know the feeling 😆

[quick wigeon]

I updated it, it was anywas, but always is better here

[fiery egret]

Consider rephrasing it to "always ask", to minimize confusion

[abstract crest]

They already did lol

[fiery egret]

No, I mean "always ask" is less probable to be confused with "ask anyways", than "ask always".
Aaaaanyways, that's enough off-topic for me 🙂

[coral juniper]

"You will always ask" So that we give no option

[polar veldt]

@coral juniper is this ok

[abstract crest]

Just gonna say that I hope that it is okay with a mod (would understand maybe needing a link to the ICRC in the mod description) but also understand, with BI's relationship with the ICRC why they use the Red Crystal. But militaries don't, they use the other symbols

[ivory dock]

The Red Cross would probably have an issue with it unfortunately.

That's why in Halo, the med packs have an H instead of the Cross

[tepid lion]

No

[soft vale]

theres blood on it. Blood bad. take it off

[tepid lion]

Can’t have the logo in general

Red Cross is super protected

Funny enough Bohemia actually has theirs painted on the model

You can’t alter it

[soft vale]

yeh blood isnt allowed man

[tepid lion]

The logo itself is not allowed

I’d avoid Red Cross stuff it’s a slippery slope

[abstract crest]

Or play ARMA 2 where many Red Crosses can be found on vehicles and tents (and modded ARMA 3 ofc)

[polar veldt]

I mean wouldn’t mods fall under reforgers Red Cross license

[abstract crest]

I'd actually like to see what BI's official position (BI not us) is on this. In previous ARMA's we were told the official position, Hell, we had an entire DLC, but there was no issue for modders to represent it, so long as done realistically.

[polar veldt]

My thing is, under the EULA Bohemia technically has licensing over all mods so I’d assume that any license they have with Red Cross would extend to their mods as well, especially since they want it to be represented properly

[tepid lion]

Just because they do. Does not mean you do.

If you wanna find out how to violate the Geneva convention quick go ahead and use it

[pliant oracle]

Play the Mighty Swiss Army, with white cross and red background

[normal pond]

Going around with Geneva conventions in an arma community isn't gonna bring a lot of fruit

[polar veldt]

Red Cross so mid

[humble ravine]

No, because BI likely has a non-transferable license or permission to use it. Modders are not considered an extension of BI.

[tepid lion]

No but the severity of the matter is you can get in a whole lotta trouble for using it so you’re better off not doing it

[minor cove]

Just use a different colour and you are fine.

"In order to avoid this conflict, other generic alternatives are used, such as a green cross, a white cross on a red background, or the letter H."

[near swallow]

If ur so worried about using the Red Cross don’t use it

Pretty simple

[tepid lion]

Exactly what I said. It’s not worth the risk

[hot wolf]

How so?

[covert bear]

The symbols are protected by the Geneva Conventions, any unauthorized use of them is technically a breach of international humanitarian law
https://www.redcross.ca/about-us/about-the-canadian-red-cross/red-cross-emblem/it-may-just-be-a-game-to-you-but-it-means-the-world-to-us

[abstract crest]

Yeah, the question is whether using them in context in a mod will get the mod banned in Reforger? That is not the case in ARMA 3. And that requires a statement by Mario I guess, not the opinion of players 😉

[covert bear]

The answer is that using them is a violation of international law, if we specifically try to find and ban them shouldn't even be a concern? don't break the law.

[near swallow]

Especially international humanitarian law

[abstract crest]

Heh, I did like Banned Inc.'s reaction to that press release from the ICRC though 😛 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pknPSNWVghY

[abstract crest]

So it is forbidden to port some ARMA 2 assets to Reforger then without retexturing to Red Crystal? 🤔

[hardy bone]

You would have to ask the red cross to use the emblem, unless you're depicting existing equipments (example of WWII medics helmets/coverall)

[abstract crest]

My question is specifically about using the Red Cross and Crescent in appropriate usage cases.

Some, though players not Mario have suggested that mods with those symbols will or should be banned. The OP showed an image of an armband with the red cross on it, not an inappropriate use of the symbol in the Cold War setting of Reforger (or now tbh)

[hardy bone]

You'll have to ask the IFRC since it's their symbols that's protected (even though it seems counter productive to disallow the association of "safety" with the symbols)

[abstract crest]

No need to. Am simply asking for clarification on the answer for the Reforger (and presumably future ARMA 4) workshop?

[covert bear]

not an inappropriate use of the symbol in the Cold War setting
Appropriate != Authorized

[abstract crest]

Agreed and not the point. Can people reastically create vehicles with these irl symbols. So far all we have are people's opinions, not BI policy. Despite a lot of opinions, the original question is as yet unanswered: #other_ip_topics message

[covert bear]

Do you have the Authorization to use that symbol? the answer is no.
Workshop ToS states "The Content does not infringe anyone else´s rights and that any use of the Content presumed by these Terms of use will be in compliance with all applicable laws or other applicable legal documents."
That is not an opinion

[abstract crest]

Okay. Cool, thank God I love ARMA 3 😛

[covert bear]

Different game, same violation. don't upload stuff you don't have the rights to, its quite a simple solution

[hardy bone]

Through reading IFRC documents, even the red crystal is in the same case as the red cross and red crescent

[covert bear]

Red crystal indeed has the same protected status

[vast stump]

just put big red dot on white background

[abstract crest]

So no 1-1 porting of some ARMA 2 assets? 🤷

[hardy bone]

https://www.redcross.org/content/dam/redcross/Brand-Creative/153701-07-OGC-Trademarks-Flyer.pdf

[abstract crest]

HMMWV and LR ambulances, medical BMPs and M113s, all medical tents other than USMC, MASH tent...? Red cross flag, red cross one legged sign...

[hardy bone]

That a lot of assets lost to a petty squabble

But law is law...

[covert bear]

nothing is "lost" just replace the red cross icons

[abstract crest]

But muh immersion! Sort of mean that in a half-serious manner though

[covert bear]

I'd say it being A2 data changes nothing and still constitutes a violation, but @coral juniper can give the final answer on that

[abstract crest]

And his opinion is pretty much the only important one on this specific issue

[covert bear]

internation law doesnt care about your immersion, harshly speaking 😂

[abstract crest]

Wait til they found out what we did with Laws of War DLC 🤣

[hardy bone]

straight to jail

[meager fractal]

*Japan enters the chat*

[covert bear]

well what you did is irrelevant, but BI worked closely with the ICRC to make sure laws of war depictions of their logo's were proper

[abstract crest]

It was a joke on my part. I have never committed a war crime in ARMA MILSIM, never!

Did appreciate more realistic cluster munitions and the ability to simulate artillery scatterable minefields though 👍

I do have a suggestion though. Would it be possible to have a channel, like the discord tickets channel called something like 'IP Questions' where we can create threads but only those approved on the BI side can answer? Would be useful for cases like this where someone has a valid question of what they can do, but the only people who can comment/answer are providing official BI guidance, not just the random opinions of myself and others?

Not sure whether possible with discord though, we'd have to have the ability to see the questions and BI answers, but not add to thread.

[icy linden]

Unless those answering are lawyers I don't see the point

[abstract crest]

Those answering would be Mario or Dwarden I'd assume

[covert bear]

my "random opinion" was solely based on facts.

You are not authorized by the ICRC to use the red cross and related emblems.

Reforger workshop ToS states "The game content must not infringe anyone's copyrights or author rights, it must not be offensive to people or illegal in any other way."

Using those ICRC emblems without Authorization is illegal. hence violates the ToS.

see also: #other_ip_topics message

[crimson garden]

Create posts and send messages are two separate permissions. So you can allow anyone to create a post, but deny the ability to send messages in that post and only allow X role to reply

[abstract crest]

So H&K firearms are prohibited on the workshop unless modified to remove aspects that H&K consider to be their trade dress then too

Without explicit permission from H&K

And no Glock, Colt or other trademarked symbols on any firearms either.

I had thought that, with reasonable restrictions, the rules on UGC were different from what a game company may be under

[covert bear]

UGC still follows copyright law

[dark tulip]

For most weapons you are allowed to use the military variants (and naming), similar to vehicles, gear, and basically anything. So that's an easy solution.

Might be different based on the country though

[covert bear]

the "simple" solution is and has always been, don't upload anything you are not licensed to use

[abstract crest]

Depends how well you mod them. Military XM7s have Sig Sauer's trademark on them

[dark tulip]

If you create the models/textures yourself, you can easily change that to "Sau(e)r Sig's".

Like, if people make stuff themselves it's very easy to stay away from the issues discussed in this channel. Problem is those people who don't 😉

[abstract crest]

Does RHS have permission from Heckler & Koch to use their trademark in Reforger's Status Quo mod?

[dark tulip]

ask RHS team? 🤷

[covert bear]

I don't know
I am neither a workshop moderator for reforger or a lawyer. the copy right holder would have to reach out and DMCA if they find a breach

[abstract crest]

I'm sure PuFu will be here soon™️ 😉

[abstract crest]

Except we are talking of BI rules on the workshop, not what the IP/trademark holders are DMCAing about

To paraphrase you: "Using those H&K trademarks without Authorization is illegal. hence violates the ToS"

[covert bear]

I dont know specifics of H&K copyright or what their rules for using their trademark are, some manufacturers allow use of their trademarks to be displayed in games etc. I do know the ICRC dont allow it. H&K/RHS has nothing to do with this conversation

[abstract crest]

*As a side note, I really like the RHS mods - they are very well made, some of the best," and I only bring it up because they happen to make realistic weapon models and that fact is relevent in the discussion of ICRC stuff

[abstract crest]

Heh, H&K are almost as anal as Glock tbh

Even SCUM has a Block-21, not a Glock-21 😉

[covert bear]

Again I don't know so I cant comment on it.

[vast stump]

I dont know of this case but I recall them mentioning they do have permission to use various trademarks. They are the only ones who can answer this.

[abstract crest]

Also Colt trademarked symbol...

[dark tulip]

Just keep in mind that if a game company uses trademarks in their games, companies will know a lot faster and act a lot harder as well.
Where as with mods (and as long as not monetized) are usually ignored by the IP/TM/C lawyers, and are even rarely DMCA'd unless it really gets traction for some reason.

I think in the past 10 years of Arma 3 I've only seen one (confirmed) case of a mod being taken down because of trademarks, by the manufacturer.

However, that does not mean that it's allowed and, at least for the Reforger Workshop, BI has all the rights to deny/remove mods which clearly break TOS, even when a manufacturer doesn't care enough to DMCA it.

And, not to forget, BI is "required" to put that line in their TOS, to protect themselves from lawyers as well.
Now they can just say "we don't allow it, and we told the uploader so, therefor not our fault"

[trim peak]

RHS has permission to use some trade marks. Not sure which ones but there are a couple.

[abstract crest]

As I said, entire point is that if BI will preemptively ban mods with red cross/red crescent then they need to enforce all copyrighted/trademarked symbols - unless a mod has explicit written permission

[covert bear]

The entire point is that none of that matters and that our enforcement is a secondary step, the first and primary step is to make sure you have the rights to use what you want to upload, which in this case you do not (if you ask the ICRC for permission and its granted its an entirely different story)

Would it fly under the radar? probably, we cant ask every copyright holder if they gave the mod permission. but just because it probably wouldnt get DMCA'd or reported doesnt mean you are allowed to and should

we do enforce all copyright/trademark violations, once we are made aware(via DMCA of the copyright holder) or if we 100% know there is no permission given

[abstract crest]

Definitely do need clarification from @zealous ore then...

Hopefully they have the permissions and may well do...

[covert bear]

Do you work for H&K/Colt? I dont see how RHS connects to you wanting to use red cross emblems

H&K/Colt havent yet filed a DMCA against RHS(that I'm aware of, I dont work at legal/workshop moderation) if they did it would be handled by the respective team

PuFu/RHS doesn't have to justify their licensing/use of trademarks to you

[abstract crest]

I don't but I want rules to be consistently enforced

[covert bear]

They are, its what DMCA complaints are for.

[dark tulip]

There's a job opening for that: https://careers.bohemia.net/position/workshop-content-curator-modding 🤣

[abstract crest]

So, when you say, "You cannot use red cross, it is a violation of TOS" then I want it also to be said that "Use of company's trademarks in any way are also a violation of TOS"

[green portal]

This isn’t the colt trademark symbol—Punky intentionally made a fake one. If the HK symbol is indeed an issue, we will take care of it—the artist chose to use the real markings for accuracy reasons and we are hesitant to edit textures that we received in their finished form (thereby altering the artist’s work and intent).

[abstract crest]

Cheers gurdy, thanks for response. Love the models ❤️

[covert bear]

No I said, "You are not authorized to use the red cross emblem, using it is a violating of the ToS". I dont know about the licensing situation for all mods. there is a reason we cant preemptively take down stuff based on trademarks (with exceptions like star wars).

[abstract crest]

Did think about that one, but not in a position to move to Czechia, and probably got enough haters at BI at this point lol

[covert bear]

using the emblem is perfectly fine as long as you are authorized to use it

going back to my point of don't upload stuff you don't have the rights to, our eventual moderation wether that is instant or based on DMCA is completely irrelevant

[abstract crest]

Fair enough. And I pretty much agree with everything you've said so far... I have done and am doing many mods and IP rights are something I very much take into account before using anything. Don't know why the idea that we can't use realistic military markings "triggered" me so much, but I made my point (probably not in the best way). I am old enough to enjoy ARMA 3 for the rest of my life 😉

[zealous ore]

sorry, why would you ping me for?
we have quite a few agreements to use real world copyrights from various weapon and gear and accessory manufacturers. I have had several discussions with people representing various brands who said they cannot provide agreements but they legally tolerate it (due to our full non commercial nature). However, there is nothing to explain, or clarify outside of BI, or the copyright owner.
Not sure how you manage to bring RHS into the mix out of the blue (*edited)…it’s tiresome to see some random person expect clarifications on subjects with no concern to him.

edited for clarification

[abstract crest]

"You" ... I don't do that... And I happened to mention that I was only using you as my example of pushing against something different... #other_ip_topics message But yeah, thanks for the flippant remark and strawman, "hE's a rHS HaTer" bullshit 😡

In fact you can search for my user name and RHS in this discord... And if anything my comments are almost always positive.

[zealous ore]

let me rephrase if you didn’t get the idea

Rest assured we are taking all the necessary measures and have on call legal counsel in order to continuously comply with BI’s Terms of Service and End User Agreements.
Thanks again for your exemplary support.```

[abstract crest]

You could have left your message without the end bit with "Not sure how you manage to keep bringing RHS into the mix out of the blue with every single occasion you have" but no, you decided to strawman and defame my character.

Are you gonna remove that defamation? Or is it okay for a mod to lie about someone to make a point?

[hot wolf]

I think you love the drama man. They don’t need to apply rules for everyone for fairness. It’s their game.

[zealous ore]

please read what i wrote. i didn’t mention a positive or negative connotation to it, i haven’t called you a hater or lover either.
You have been doing it lately in discussions and topics with no relation to this specific mod. not sure where the defamation thing stems from

[abstract crest]

Bollocks. This is defamation: Not sure how you manage to keep bringing RHS into the mix out of the blue with every single occasion you have

Where? Which post? About RHS?

every single occassion you have

bringing RHS into the mix out of the blue

[hot wolf]

It is true. You bring RHS up pretty regularly with your “but what about RHS…”. I think you need to step away from the keyboard and take a breath.

[abstract crest]

Did you search my name and the word RHS btw? Apart from just this particular discussion?

Please do...

[hot wolf]

Calling it defamation is a stretch

[abstract crest]

Not really... Defamation is a false statement of fact that harms someone's reputation

[hardy bone]

Right, "Libel" would be the more prescise word?

[zealous ore]

that is true, in this particular case it was out of the blue

[zealous ore]

i have edited it because indeed it might not be with every single occasion you have. i stand corrected

edit - further edited my post to avoid unwanted understatement of the original message that was being delivered

[hot wolf]

You’d have to prove malicious intent and a discussion on discord is not going to hold up in any court as defamation or libel.

[abstract crest]

Right, I am not accepting that mate. I think this post indicates a malicious intent.

[hot wolf]

Getting muted by a mod speedrun any %

[zealous ore]

since this isn’t ip related anymore, let’s continue this if you please in #discord_server

[abstract crest]

I would have just 👍 your comment had the current one been all you wrote, but you wanted to use me as a strawman and defame/libel me

[hardy bone]

Defamation doesn't need intent, just effect

[zealous ore]

i don’t mute people if civil conversation is a thing

[coral juniper]

You are NOT permitted to have these in a mod.

[abstract crest]

Thanks for the clarification Mario. I appreciate it

[coral juniper]

It's not our decision btw

You just can't for this

[covert bear]

@polar veldt final answer above ^^

[polar veldt]

@covert bear I skimmed through most of it so what you’re saying is if I get authorization from the Red Cross to use the emblem I am ok?

[autumn brook]

per the red cross they only license it for approved fundraising requests (which would not include a mod to my understanding), and in some countrys you can be fined for it as well as it violating the geneva convention. overall id say just use an alternative like the ones they list in one of the photos additionally certain countrys change the symbol so id imagine even the arma 3 IDAP symbol is somewhat close the edge (obligatory not a lawyer attached)

main thing is just change the colour / logo significantly afaik

[polar veldt]

What if I make it a white cross on red background or a red cross in different style liek the templars cross

[autumn brook]

its skimming the line but i think its ok as it applies to only used symbol's ie red cresent in below pic but i would check with mario

FYI i am reading this off of
https://www.icrc.org/en/guidelines-red-cross-emblem-fundraising
and
https://www.redcross.org.au/globalassets/cms-assets/documents/about-us/20110318ihlemblembrochure-final.pdf

[meager fractal]

the Templars Order!

[abstract crest]

Would think that the Knights Hospitaller would be more appropriate than the templars, not sure how much healing was done by the latter, more the killing bit. But Knights Hospitaller is trademarked for the Knights of St John ambulance services

[near swallow]

Damn so the use of any form of Red Cross seems to land you in either copyright trouble or in violation of international humanitarian law

[stray rover]

So basically the community now has to come up with their own agreed upon protected symbols

[autumn brook]

the real solution here is copying video games medical symbols (or the 3 option listed above)
though it is funny that this likely is not the first time someone has violated the geneva convention with a connnection to reforger (not continuing that conversation offtopic)

[near swallow]

I’d just go with a different colour lol
Maybe green on a blue background or something

[autumn brook]

many different options basically just not anything red really

can likely take a look at somethings arma 3 mods used just beware the red diamond is not kosher

[proven sleet]

How does the red cross on the medical vehicles and med tents in game work then?

[near swallow]

Bohemia has permission to use it

[covert bear]

BI got permission from the ICRC for their use in laws of war assets

[subtle spade]

The Red Cross stuff is so anoyying like come onnnnnn

[proven sleet]

So does that technically mean that if someone uses the base game assets they are breaking IP?

[fiery egret]

This includes any use of a symbol so
closely resembling a red cross that it could
be mistaken for one
I have always wondered how close you can be color-wise or shape-wise and still be "legal". Like, when exactly does a red Christian cross become a Red Cross or which shade of red is still okay and which one is not. (i.e. how about a cyclamen cross?)
I guess it's open to interpretation, which means "sucks to be us" 😓

I understand the reason why it's the way it is, however it's really unfortunate as to me it's as immersion breaking as if we had to apply the blaze orange tip to all Arma firearms to show that these are not real firearms, but replicas shooting e-bullets. (yes, Crumble, I said that I understand that we can't use the cross, I'm just saying how it looks to me 😛 )

[covert bear]

We have permission to include it. so you can use it in gameplay etc. but you cannot create your own mods/assets with it

[autumn brook]

yeah i guess just open since legally the red cross would fit to a very wide range, though personally i think that green and white symbols that are more common in commonwealth countries are a good enough stand in (even on some of our military kit we dont have red cross symbols)

[near swallow]

Ah yes the age old question:
how cross can a Red Cross get before it violates international humanitarian law

[polar veldt]

Can you confirm idt the templars cross breaks any rules

[covert bear]

The reason for the military kit is that the red cross emblem is only allowed to be displayed by non-combat units. hence they cant give out meds etc with the symbol incase it shows when carried externally

[covert bear]

idk, you'd have to ask a lawyer. probably fine but i'm not a lawyer so dont take my word for it. its a question for the copyright holder not us

[autumn brook]

interesting makes me wonder about medvac vehicles then in way of driver not being a medic i suppose that falls under self defense weaponry etc then

[polar veldt]

So if I put a BTR turret on the medical humvee I’m prolly making some Red Cross nerd piss their pants

[fiery egret]

Definitely.

[polar veldt]

I will now strictly be using the in game medical vehicles and bags to store grenades and AT mines lol

[autumn brook]

the UN hates this one simple trick

[autumn brook]

i think that the only issue with this is the above bit that lou mentioned about there being an ip owner but 90% chance your good

[covert bear]

Which is fine since the ICRC considered this when allowing us to use the emblems. mentioned in their blog post for a3 laws of war that they expect this to happen but it still generates an understanding that a player is breaking the geneva conventions

[proven sleet]

Im just going to make a red and white staff of asclepius

[polar veldt]

So you guys should consider adding modded content under that license as long as representation of the emblem is appropriate and aligns with reforgers

[fiery egret]

I can't talk about it breaking the rules or not (personally, I think that there is no way for it to be mistaken, so my opinion [which you should not rely upon 😛 ] would be that it's okay), but honestly, I'd advise against using it, because it would simply look... silly to me.
As in: when I'd see that white cross on a green background, I could think that it's because it's supposed to blend better with the forest environment or something, but if I'd see a templar cross in-game, that would look so off to me that instead of playing the game, I'd be thinking "that guy is trying to cirumvent ICRC policy" all the time 😦

[polar veldt]

Noooo be based use a Templar symbol

[polar veldt]

Even better

Is he providing medical aid or reclaiming the holy land? Who knows

[covert bear]

thats a question for legal, but I assume the ICRC also wouldnt like that since instead of just policing nobody uses it without permission now they/we would have to police if the usage is appropriate

[fiery egret]

I mean... if your point is to make a statement rather than making something believable... then who am I to stop you? 😅

[autumn brook]

extremly offtopic but makes me wonder how many medical kit manufacturers have broken the geneva convention

[polar veldt]

I mean you guys already police content do you not?

[polar veldt]

I’m more so about the asthetics

Green or blue cross just ain’t doing it for me

[polar veldt]

I mean the Red Cross ain’t Disney I’m sure they’re fine with actual medical equipment using the their symbols

[covert bear]

"appropriate use" is way harder to police. you'd need an expert on international law and ICRC rules

[fiery egret]

I’m more so about the asthetics
I understand, but as I said: IMO the templar cross is looking worse, to me. Feel free to ignore that, but at least I gave you my input 😛

[polar veldt]

Crumble I hear you’re in need of an expert in ICRC rules and I just bought a book on that my app is in ur emails ❤️

[covert bear]

and you can always ask the icrc for permission yourself

[polar veldt]

Bet I’m sure they’ll bother to respond 😀

lol

[autumn brook]

you'd be suprised

[polar veldt]

Crumble iss ok imma Deus Vulture my way around this lol

[fiery egret]

How about a thin white cross inside a thick red cross? (This is not legal advice 🙃 )

[polar veldt]

Hold up

[subtle spade]

This is what arma 3 spear head does

Call it the Swiss +

[autumn brook]

dont think its kosher
"This includes any use of a symbol so
closely resembling a red cross that it could
be mistaken for one"

[polar veldt]

How cringe is the Red Cross imagine wanting to portray their organization accurately now imma be teaching people everywhere that the green vetinarian cross is a place they can go for medical treatment or that Switzerland is a hospital country

[polar veldt]

See but this is a white cross 😎

[near swallow]

I’m guessing the United Nations (or whoever you contact over this) has at least a few lawyers

[covert bear]

you'd contact the ICRC/IFRC

[autumn brook]

i mean im guessing legally its hard to discipline between this and setting up a fake red cross aid site for a number of very unethicable reasons

[polar veldt]

I mean if they allow Bohemia to use it for reforger u legit cannot think of a way the Red Cross emblem could be misused beyond placing it on armed vehciles

I’m speaking in a modding sense

[covert bear]

adding it to bombs etc, there is lots of ways to misuse it

[autumn brook]

main thing i can think of is people in help being drawn to it can be used in many bad events

[normal pond]

Sounds like Arma material tbh

If there's a way to warcrime, it was done in Arma

[polar veldt]

Think about it tho, who is doing that 😭 and that is such an easy catch for y’all

[near swallow]

I know there’s people that use arma 3 footage as irl stuff so I’d imagine it’d be stuff like that

[polar veldt]

You guys have full access to the workshop and plenty of Bohemia glazers that’ll report on the spot

[covert bear]

not allowing it and have projects request permission themselves is so much easier tho

[polar veldt]

Uhg you guys don’t like to make it easy huh 😂

[autumn brook]

its legal tings man its never easy

[polar veldt]

We’ll crumble here I go emailing an international organization 😔

[autumn brook]

funny reference found when researching it

[near swallow]

What does this reference

[autumn brook]

arma 3

[near swallow]

I thought that was a Bohemia thing lol

[autumn brook]

the better arma series released this decade

[vast stump]

this kind of remarks are not really welcome

[near swallow]

I do wanna try arma 3 it looks… alright

[polar veldt]

My bad goat you right

Not trynna get muted again 😔

[normal pond]

It looks shit. It plays shit. It's shit.
Yet somehow I have close to 6k hours. Many people do. It just sucks you in and doesn't let go

[autumn brook]

i like it a lot if you can get past midly eh graphics and some performance issues its great

[near swallow]

It’s like an addiction then
Noted

[autumn brook]

a much more finished one than reforger though

[near swallow]

I’ve played dayz I can live through some jank

Seems like a 2042 but better thing

[abstract crest]

A medic with the red cross can carry weapons and fight too though, under the Laws of War

[near swallow]

If my understanding is correct they do lose that medic status when they start shooting

[covert bear]

to my understanding it has lots of limitations and all usage/rights are void the moment they get into combat

[abstract crest]

They do

[polar veldt]

Guys please stay on topic I don’t want you guys to get muted

[abstract crest]

Until they are not fighting anymore if no one else saw them 🙂

[near swallow]

What’s the symbol on the soviet medical bag?

[abstract crest]

But tbf, the individuals themselves respect their status and will not do so unless they really have no other choice. But have even been times in Iraq.Afghanistan where US or British medics have been forced to do so

[polar veldt]

Guys idc who they are if they’re Russian im shooting em medic or not

Bohemia Shoudk out soemthing in the game to protect unarmed medics tbh

Put*

[covert bear]

morals, its on you to not shoot them 😂

[normal pond]

They are protected.
However it's just ignored nowadays because why bother? It's not like someone is gonna be looking up who shot this guy with an UGL at 400m...

That's why even medics get rifles now and participate in combat fully

Theoretically, if you are red crossed and walk through open field between trenches, no one should attack you.

Reality however is very different

[abstract crest]

Does Reforger punish you if you are a medic and shoot someone or are not a medic and shoot one who doesn't have a weapon. Should be easy to do with event handlers? 😉

[autumn brook]

why bother?, if anything it would make players hate it more and likely try to find workarounds or commit more in a "meme"

[abstract crest]

Was the same always without an agreed ceasefire to reclaim the dead and wounded

[covert bear]

Lets try to get this channel back on topic atleast a little bit 😄

[polar veldt]

Crumble this is a genuine question, since we are not allowed to create our own meshes with the Red Cross emblems can you guys add some actual medical clothing to the base game? Liek maybe a version of each helmet with the Red Cross emblem or a armband or maybe even a vest/bib with the cross

Maybe you can even allow a system in which people with these items cannot equip weapons

[abstract crest]

Crumble's ARMA 3

[polar veldt]

Shit

[covert bear]

^^^^

[abstract crest]

We have them

[polar veldt]

Wel crumble can you pass this on to the powers that be ❤️

I really woudl like to be a medic in all theatres but there just ain’t nothin out there

A real people pleaser content this would be

Ain’t no one not shooting me if I’m wearing a satchel with a Red Cross on it

[dark tulip]

Could always make a medic focused mod and ask permission from the Red Cross 😉

[autumn brook]

in short in way of red cross regulations for logos it basically means the below
"Some nations have chosen to adopt a red crescent or a red crystal rather than a red cross as alternatives for protection in armed conflict. The emblems are restricted under international law, in the same way as the red cross."
"symbol so closely resembling a red cross that it could be mistaken for one"

icons can be found at https://www.ifrc.org/who-we-are/international-red-cross-and-red-crescent-movement/emblems-and-logo

[polar veldt]

Yeah I read their whole site just now

Think it work ve easier for the reforger devs to give us the tools

[autumn brook]

what tools?

i dont see how they can help besides being in this channel

[near swallow]

I’m pretty sure you can make a Red Cross with the tools available

[polar veldt]

More vanilla items

With the emblem

Seems to be in reforger and the ICRC best interest

[prime pollen]

Could use whatever base material has it and then transform the uv to get it where u want

[hardy bone]

As per american law it would be a no since you try to imitate the red cross:
https://www.redcross.org/content/dam/redcross/Brand-Creative/153701-07-OGC-Trademarks-Flyer.pdf

[stray rover]

This one looks like the best alternative they propose tbh.

[pliant oracle]

Medic focused mod exists

Banned inc:

[coral juniper]

No one in BI is supposed to tell you that something is allowed on behalf of thr holder of the rights or the responsible party.

Ask the owner. In this case you know who it is

Not us

When it comes to a ban, for the appeal you need the actual license prior to the ban.

So in any way or another you need the correct permission beforehand

The default answer you will get from us is not allowed, unless you get direct PROPER permission

About making inspired symbols and what not. You will also should not receive an answer from any of our devs as we are not accessories to this. Do your own research, from a responsibility standpoint, we can not give it to you and it is not part of our jobs to provide legal support to you. If you really want it, consult a lawyer on the matter.

https://www.icrc.org/en/law-and-policy/use-emblems

That is their initial point for such things

You will see in this case how extremely regulated this is.

Specially if you read the PDFs down below

Even then if you get allowance to use in game, how you use is an issue.

From our perspective, just to avoid any issues. It is never allowed.

Just do an H like many other games do.

[hot wolf]

Knights Templar still exists today as an organization. You’d have to get permission. If they file DMCA then it’s 💨

[pliant oracle]

kinda arma looking screenshot

[tepid lion]

Law of war DLC was great

[coral juniper]

Just to clarify, as people seem to not understand it. There is a different case for us as developers regarding a license vs the modder.

This difference is also the reason why textures are not readily available to you. As many of them contain partial work of other base textures licensed to us only.

[tepid lion]

Yeah all of that’s understandable. A lot of people don’t get it though

[dusky cliff]

#ip_rights_violations message
this reminded me of a question I had a while ago. can you block access to your mod to some users, e,g. based on the users' IP, SteamID, etc.? (by disabling your mod)

[celest sundial]

Answered in IP rights FAQ blog. You can add non malicious DRMs but the users can also simply mod it out again. There is not really a point in trying to publish something publicly and then try to exclude individuals again. Impractical

[dusky cliff]

yeah but what if it's a dll (closed source) and not so easily modifiable? (Arma 3)

I could be misremembering but I think it was against the Steam Workshop TOS or something?

[abstract crest]

A4Sync... will be essential

Though will only be relevant to Leopard20's case if extensions are supported, and at least so far it seems like BI are resistant

[mossy yarrow]

I recently played A3 RHS Again, how did they got away with the medical red cross ? I thought its not allowed to use in games anymore

[dark tulip]

Is has never been allowed, unless permission has been given.
Otherwise Art of War DLC should be banned as well 😏

But as has been discussed a couple of days ago, as long as no DMCA is sent there's no legal reason to remove/ban a mod.

[mossy yarrow]

okay so i should be fine with it aswell ?

but this is an interesting take because if no dmca is sent throught the original copyright owner, all call of duty rip takedowns are technically not lawfully correct, since the dmca mostly come from the a3 community

[dark tulip]

If you have permission from the Red Cross, sure.

As for RHS or other mods; they might have gotten permission.
CoD rips are 100% without permission, so worth an easy removal.

[mossy yarrow]

i doubt rhs or other mods do have permission.

i see

[dark tulip]

RHS probably has more permissions than half of the mods on the workshop, so I wouldn't be too sure of that 😉

[inland sphinx]

One cannot file a DMCA about someone else's content.
I think you're making a wrong assumption there.

You probably mean "reports" not "DMCA"

[rugged prawn]

ignoring the obvious new witchhunt attempt, can you clarify which models in the mod use the red cross logo? As far as i can recall the only red cross i remember seeing was the one on the RU medical bag, which is NOT the ICRC symbol, which is defined as a red cross ON A WHITE FIELD.

and it may very well be that we missed some inclusion, I'm not saying otherwise and maybe memory is failing me, but all this stuff was added in early 2010s before broader understanding of such topic.

Ah I see now there might be some us medical vehicles, ok we can clean it up for future release.

[inland sphinx]

For reference, the ICRC "Use of emblems" site is from august 2024.
The red cross's Trademarks flyer is from January 22.
The ICRC guidelines on the use of the symbol are from February 2024.
The ifrc page about their emblems is from October 2022.
This post #other_ip_topics message (Yes this is not the first time this discussion happens in this channel, as usual) was created October 2018.

https://www.polygon.com/2017/9/19/16330216/international-red-cross-pr-disaster-arma-3-laws-of-war-dlc
The first focus onto games started in 2010/2011, back then internally in the ICRC, not publicly.

Nowadays the rules are made very clear. Back then, people didn't consider games.
That is why you will find lots of old content that did not consider it. Simply because it just wasn't something to be considered back then.

[mossy yarrow]

It was not a witchhunt attempt i was just curious...

The UH60M MEV for example does have the correct symbol

[mossy yarrow]

That is interesting, thanks for the detailed explanation Dedmen

[abstract crest]

Don't know which assets in this case but ports of ARMA 2 Samples will often have the ARMA 2 red cross textures on them, see UH-60 MedEvac, M113s, HMMWV ambulances, the field hospital tents in CUP (funnily in CUP the CDF and Russian ones have red crosses and the USMC has the red crystal, which I assume got a new texture)

[pliant oracle]

yes with Operation Arrowhead

[abstract crest]

Wonder whether that change was with the A2OA release in 2010 or subsequently patched when ARMA 3 assets were being worked on later?

Not important other than as a trivia question, but if at release it would indicate that BI were considering the issue before the debate escaped into the public sphere

[wicked sequoia]

Yes and no. BI sort of adhered to this but either forgot about it entirely or just stopped caring by the time of ACR's release, since the red cross explicitly shows up on Military Offroad ambulances (added in ACR) instead of red crescent/red crystal on the HMMWV ambulances.
https://i.imgur.com/asQC3TG.jpeg

Wonder whether that change was with the A2OA release in 2010 or subsequently patched when ARMA 3 assets were being worked on later?
Red crescent/red crystal was always used from the get go on OA vehicles. CorePatch and Community Configuration Project didn't change those textures.

[zenith turret]

is there a specific channel to discuss this new monetization stuff?

[covert bear]

Not really, you can ask your question in here

[zenith turret]

we want to monetize cosmetic packs for OUR gear (clothing and cars) and not for any other mods.

why do we need permission from other authors that have nothing to do with our mods (we have a few dependancies) to do so?

[vast stump]

yes

you monetize the server, not specifically your content

[covert bear]

All the other mods on your server combined with your own are what makes your server your server
You might not be monetizing {insert random mod here} directly but that mod is part of your gameplay/experience
And most mods are licensed under the APL license which does not allow monetization

[abstract crest]

Remove the mods that do not get permission. You are using the mods to attract people to the monetized server and not go play elsewhere

[zenith turret]

so another question, say somebody uses my car pack on their server and they want to pay for new skins? can they do so?

[abstract crest]

Not without your permission

[zenith turret]

no i mean pay me to make new skins for my mod

[abstract crest]

No

[vast stump]

no

[covert bear]

they want to pay for new skins
They are not allowed to pay you to make skins in your mod

[zenith turret]

but if im the owner of the models, why cant i sell them a skin?

[abstract crest]

Well, they can pay your for pngs of new textures that they can put in a server mod but you cannot give them anything that went through the Reforger Tools

[zenith turret]

so i can, but only the raw png\tif?

[vast stump]

sure within the rules source material can be paid for

but then you could not put them in game

since you were paid for them

[zenith turret]

why not

[vast stump]

the modding tools are non commercial

but if you want clarification

[zenith turret]

so if i sell a png, i cannot add that same png into my mod?

[vast stump]

DM @coral juniper

since this is not going anywhere.

[zenith turret]

whats with the attitude goat

go away

[abstract crest]

Because then you are being paid for a mod, not a non-game texture. See https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property This is for ARMA 3 but the principles apply to Reforger

[zenith turret]

THANK you @abstract crest

wasnt that hard there goat did u see that? a direct answer to a question

[covert bear]

There was lots of direct answers provided but you tried to snake your way around till you found a workaround.
and no need for the childish remark

[zenith turret]

no im asking for clarification and transparency. not a answer thats open for interpretation

[vast stump]

im not sure how to be more clear than this simple statement

[covert bear]

Answer is simple, tools are not allowed to be used commercially. selling pngs and then integrating them into your mod etc is obviously just semantics at that point and still obvious commercial use

[zenith turret]

but i didnt ask "can i get paid to put my png into the game"

i asked, once i sell a png am i allowed to then put it in game in my own mod

[zenith turret]

thats not the same thing

[meager fractal]

anyway, that's offtopic as monetisation is about server monetisation - not mods.

[zenith turret]

but it is mods that you would be monetizing...

[meager fractal]

you can absolutely monetise a vanilla server

[zenith turret]

how

what can i charge for on a vanilla server?

[meager fractal]

put an officer cap behind a paywall
no gameplay change, just aesthetics

[zenith turret]

so i can put bohemias property behind a paywall?

[covert bear]

Once you are approved for monetization, yes
as long as all monetization rules are follow

[abstract crest]

Would be nice if Reforger file types were added to that Biki page. Especially noting the "conversion services" bits that are the prohibition to selling a png, then integrating it for the customer...

[meager fractal]

server monetisation is only about allowing to put aesthetical, non-gameplay features behind a paywall

[zenith turret]

but if i put my own property behind a paywall, i need permission from people that have nothing to do with my property?

IF i have dependancies

[covert bear]

Already explained above, we will not be answering this again

[meager fractal]

the server monetisation is the matter - not mods

[abstract crest]

Because you are adding those mods to a server to make more people pay money on that server...

[meager fractal]

you're thinking of it as "paid mods" and that's absolutely not the thing at hand

[zenith turret]

but thats not whats happening, thats what you are using as the language

you are saying that if someone buys a cosmetic item for a mod thats on my server, its server monetization when clearly its a monetization of the mods content

[covert bear]

for a mod thats on my server
answered your own question

[abstract crest]

As an example, when I had a large community on my ARMA 3 server they played it because of my mod selections and what I did with them. While I have never contemplated monetization of the server I would not have been allowed to because I heavily use CUP. And without CUP the server would not have been what it was, nor as attractive to players.

[zenith turret]

just like if i had a vanilla server with stuff behind a paywall, i am monetizing the content from bohemia, not the server itself

the language needs to be clear.

[meager fractal]

your mods are on the workshop, anyone can download a mod from the workshop
again, you think of it as "putting a mod behind a paywall" where it is "allowing a server to place some benefits behind a paywall"
change the mindset you use to look at the matter, otherwise we will never match in conversation

[zenith turret]

just because you say its server monetization doesnt mean it breaks down into those definitions.

logically.

[abstract crest]

They allow that though and you are not monetizing BI property per se, you are monetizing what you have done to it on that server

[meager fractal]

I have genuinely no idea of the point you are trying to make.

[zenith turret]

the distinction and actual definition of what is occuring.

[covert bear]

The final answer is simply
You need approval/appropriate licensing for all mods running on a server you wish to monetize
all of this is explained in the guidelines and blog post about it which you can find with a simple google search
thats the end of this conversation

[abstract crest]

And this has been the case since 2015 and is a rule in place because people were monetizing other people's intellectual property who can not make money monetizing their mods...

[zenith turret]

this right here, is good language to describe whats happening.

thats what i asked for

you bohemia guys say one thing and hope people interpret it the way you said it

when theres many ways to look at it

[meager fractal]

if you don't know, just ask
don't state otherwise 🤷‍♂️

glad we're on the same page though

[abstract crest]

I am on a different page, I have always hoped that one year, on the expiration date, BI would end server monetization 😛

[meager fractal]

the damage is done, all we can do is control it

[normal pond]

Does that mean you have means of banning servers, even if they are started in the no backend configuration?
talking about control that is

[zenith turret]

one more question.
if someone buys a cosmetic item on my server and i add it to the mod.
and that mod is public.
isnt that mod monetization?

[abstract crest]

Yes, if that asset did not exist until they paid for it

[meager fractal]

how can they "buy a cosmetic item" if it is not in the server's mod already

if they pay for you to create it, that's monetisation

[normal pond]

buy a creation of specific cosmetic item, like a patch with a clan logo

[meager fractal]

don't use server monetisation to cover that

[abstract crest]

Gator here is trying to implement Star Citizen monetization in a mod 😉

[zenith turret]

so the content has to already be on the mod and the payment unlocks it?

[meager fractal]

maybe an exception could be made for logos and such, but again that's a Mario's question, I'm not diving in that one

[normal pond]

yeah, I am aware

tbh, the rules are overall very fucked up

I do not envy whoever has to go through applications and then check compliance

[zenith turret]

you guys mistake me coming here with an attitude, when its me just trying to poke holes in the gray areas

[meager fractal]

you monetise access to a mod feature
period
don't try to circumvent or try to find loopholes

[zenith turret]

but if the loopholes exist, and u are never adressed about them. how are you supposed to enforce the rule

[meager fractal]

also: ask questions about what you want to do, not "hypotheticals"

[normal pond]

in a cosmetic though, for a mod which is used only on a given server and will be behind a guid check in a mod, I think that is ok.
We don't have a way of getting stuff in missions anymore

same with special funny cars, someone comes with "I want a nyam cat uaz"
that imo should be allowed, but there's no other way than a mod to get it in game

[meager fractal]

you mean like A3's insignias? I believe you can have everything you want in the World Editor, it's "one big mod" after all

[normal pond]

everything is a mod

[abstract crest]

I would assume that for a server mod that is cool tbh, that accounts for things like clan gear and logos and such like. But for a mod that is used on many servers not so much...

[zenith turret]

we cant take the regulations at face value because alot of bi rules are worded in a way that leaves them open to interpretation

[normal pond]

exactly my thinking

we don't have a way to store stuff in missions anymore
mods are the only way

https://tenor.com/bpEmY.gif

[meager fractal]

when in doubt, apply Wheaton's Law

[abstract crest]

Personally now that Reforger has server monetization, when will ARMA 2 be allowed to @meager fractal ?

Asking for a friend...

[meager fractal]

I shalt allow Dragon Rising monetisation

[zenith turret]

the open for interpretation goes both ways, bi themselves have had trouble understanding their own rules

examples of what is allowed and what isnt allowed ALONG with the ruleset, should clear any questions people or staff have about the rules

every time i come up with rules on my server i try to put myself in the shoes of someone who will go line by line and pick apart the rule and try to find holes in it.
thats the best way to figure out if what you wrote has any loopholes in it

and if there isnt a clear distinction for some things you provide real world or in game examples of how that rule applies

[meager fractal]

just to be clear, you are the one trying to graft plenty of things on what was said:
BI says "if you successfully apply for server monetisation, you can put non-gameplay aesthetical features behind a paywall"
you come up with

• "why do I have to ask for permission from other mod creators?"
• "can we take modding orders?"

etc etc. NOTHING that has to do with anything that was stated officially.

If you wonder if something is within our tolerance, you can ask here. But:

• don't state that you can do anything that hasn't been specifically negated in the text
• don't glue something unrelated to the official statements
• don't ask about a hypothetical perhaps maybe something situation

ask about what you want to do, RELATED TO THE TOPIC, and we can bring an answer.

[zenith turret]

so no, i cannot take a payment and then ADD a item to the mod

but yes, i can take a payment to unlock something that exists in the mod

is that correct?

[meager fractal]

yes - if you successfully applied for server monetisation.

[zenith turret]

cool, that should be part of the rules

so people have a clear distinction

[meager fractal]

yeah let's bloat the rules with all the possible examples and cases

we cannot cover all the hypothetical cases and I sure hope you know that.

[zenith turret]

well if you did this convo wouldnt have happened, and trust me this same point will be made by 100s of more people

[south belfry]

Quick question, if I make a mod of a potato. Can I say "use of my mod on monetized server is not allowed without explicit permission"?
Thanks for the help!

[zenith turret]

up to u guys.

[meager fractal]

just read that message and that will be OK @zenith turret - no, not everyone tries to circumvent everything in all the ways

[zenith turret]

thats not what im doing

but u know that there are people who do

[meager fractal]

"they" will ask if they are curious

[covert bear]

https://www.bohemia.net/monetization/faq#!#c0
except its clearly stated on the FAQ

first one even

ignore that it still says A3, that should get fixed

[zenith turret]

see what i mean?

you have to tell me to ignore that it says a3

lol

have i made my point?

[meager fractal]

🤦‍♂️ now you're being obliviously obnoxious

"let's not make a point, just prove that something is not perfect to a T!"

[zenith turret]

if its a rule, it should be correct. and u shouldnt have to moderate it in discord to make sure someone understands it

how are you guys so dense

[meager fractal]

this channel is for IP questions, not for typo complaints

!ban @zenith turret 120d no personal attacks - hope your application will go through!

[bright bramble]

*fires them railguns at @zenith turret* Ò_Ó
the.gator#0000 now has 4 infractions.

[meager fractal]

just like that, I guess

[covert bear]

We forgot a spot
This was announced barely 2 days ago
but instead of asking "hey this says A3 in the FAQ, does that also apply to reforger now that monetization is allowed" you go of on rants trying to find workarounds that fit your narrative

[prime pollen]

When are u guys ever prepared ?

[south belfry]

Just going to reask my question since it was lost in the chaos.
Quick question, if I make a mod of a gun. Can I say "use of my mod on monetized server is not allowed without explicit permission"?
Thanks for the help!

[covert bear]

Yep, monetized servers need explicit permission from ALL mods they use on their server

[meager fractal]

gun or potato even

[south belfry]

Ok, so I can restrict my mod further than BI, perfect. Thanks for the clarifcation!

[south belfry]

Hear me out...a potato that is a gun that fires smaller potatos

[abstract crest]

Potato gun. An ARMA tradition

[prime pollen]

Banned a guy for pointing out incomplete rules

[covert bear]

Banned for not being able to have a civil conversation and refusing to accept answers given

[prime pollen]

So those rules are complete?

I’ve seen goat say way worse things to people but ok

[meager fractal]

you must have misread the ban message then 😄

and the whole conversation

[covert bear]

Completely off-topic but it has to be done
Why stop at a potato gun?

[prime pollen]

Rules for thee but not for me

[meager fractal]

!mute @prime pollen 7d here just to argue about IP topics? Here's the door ❤️

[prime pollen]

Do you not see he was making himself an example of how someone can interpret things?

[bright bramble]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @prime pollen!! Ò_Ó
karnage427#0000 now has 4 infractions.

[meager fractal]

kalm

[abstract crest]

Now that's over it would be nice if ARMA 2 server owners had a route to server monetization. But would need a change to DML I guess in most cases

[inland sphinx]

In the end, it doesn't matter.
Because when you request monetization permission, you will explain in detail what you want to do, and BI will tell you then if that's ok or not.

I don't see why you want to poke holes in gray areas, when at the end, it doesn't matter because you'll need a definitive decision before being able to monetize.

The rules are more a guideline of what to expect (don't expect to be allowed to sell gameplay altering things). Because the actual decision, will be made case-by-case on your precise situation.

[inland sphinx]

The default APL license, already says that in it (commercial use not allowed). So if you use APL, you don't need to specify that separately.

Giving someone specific permission to do something can override what the license says.

[inland sphinx]

Asking legitimate questions/concerns is one thing.
But trying to make up non-existent situations just for "poking holes" into perceived gray areas that in the end don't matter at all.
And then refusing to accept the answers you're given.
Smells like trolling.

There are no "loopholes" to be found to begin with.

[alpine smelt]

Lou, Gator's a good friend of mine I've known him for a while, he really is just trying to make sure he crosses all his T's and dots all his I's. So that he doesn't have any issues in the future. 🙂

I read through your conversation, and it looks like there's a bit of a disconnect, thats all!

[coral juniper]

This is what got him banned.
#other_ip_topics message

[arctic prairie]

Dense isn’t even a personal attack. This is exactly what I was saying last week about the moderators of this discord banning people due to them being offended. If someone is asking questions and all your answers seem passive aggressive I’d ask the same question as well. And yes I did read the messages

(Edit)
Did not see the unintelligent part.

[trim peak]

He should have used the words unintelligent or ignorant. Little less “vulgar” maybe? That being said, yeah that was not what I would consider something he should be banned for. I feel like the ban was more or less to stop them from being bombarded with questions they probably do not have the answers too lol

[icy linden]

"How are you people so unintelligent" is definitely better thanks bro

[trim peak]

Welcome, I prefer the word stupid but people tend to get mad at me and I don’t know why 😞

On a serious note. It’s the internet, people need thicker skin.

[abstract crest]

Also any situation will be judged based on previous infractions... always worth looking at that in the Valkyrja message

[lethal grove]

remember when BI employees (Crumble) were clown reacting people in Ip_rights_violations about a month or two ago? i’m sure it’s been unsent by now as i can’t find any ss but rule 3 & rule 4?

but “dense” gets a 120d ban…

[trim peak]

Yeah I don’t see reason for such a long ban lol

[south belfry]

If we submit a request for monetization and for some reason get denied are we able to resubmit? Will we also be told why we are denied? Thanks!

[vast stump]

Mario said there should be an email sent to you stating the reason

[south belfry]

Thanks, just wanted to make sure. Appreciate all the help

[exotic nova]

4 month ban still seems wild 😭 maybe max a month,

[calm ridge]

One time clown reacted a guy, but it was quite warranted. #621309410177843200 message

[jolly jewel]

4 months for the word dense. oof

[inland sphinx]

People love missconstruing that stuff.
No it was not 4 months for one word.
It was 4 months for that word, ontop of previous behavior and infractions.

[woeful zinc]

slightly off topic: I'm claiming rights to it

[coral juniper]

You have to make it so that it is peeled when damaged

[vagrant saffron]

you should definitely do Arma: Potato Wars for the next april fools

[stone geode]

Offtopic? Never heard of her.
Reminds me of Unrealistic Battles

[halcyon moth]

Potentially off-topic: I'm claiming a refund after seeing this shiz
Edit: steam denied my claim for being over 328 hours over the refund limit :(

[meager fractal]

then please let him know that it really comes across as "trying to find a loophole to make money" (even when trying to be in his shoes)
the point is: he applies towards BI for what BI said was OK - if he has shenanigans and other plans that nobody could plan beforehand, he asks them questions in the application form. he cannot get "all the cases that are wrong" because (as everywhere across the globe) cases where rules apply are stated - everything else is out of scope. If BI rejects his application he will be told why - if he wants to circumvent things he will do so unapproved and potentially later ban-hammered.

I rescinded the ban from 120d to 30d as I admit I was fed up and he kept going without reading what we wrote - he must keep it civil still, hence not unban

[halcyon moth]

Totally wasn't thinking of making a Potato Gustaf :p (don't worry I'll leave this conversation after this)

[meager fractal]

agreed, when they're told no they should not resort to insults out of frustration.

[near swallow]

The final evolution of the spud gun 😂

[tepid lion]

I think he’s more so pointing the possibilities out. Gator has never had ill intent hes a cool guy. I think he was just frustrated more than anything that there was flaws in certain legal communications.

Respect you dropping it to 30d

[coral juniper]

There are not flaws

They are general and open in purpose

You will never find a legal document that states every single edge case

Once you do that, that is when you mess yourself for exploits and considerations

[meager fractal]

Gator has never had ill intent
this is the part we look at the most - we could not read the "I just want to help you guys / I just want to cover my bum" feeling from what he wrote, it really looked like "ah-hah, you did not specify X and Y cases, so you guys are idiots and I will try to monetise this way"
and as Mario says (and I said earlier), nothing will every cover everything
given BI must validate your application in the end, all clarifications can happen during the process

I am however glad it is just a misunderstanding and not an antagonising monetisation scheme

[tepid lion]

No I mean just in the communication is all

People will try anything to avoid following the rules I think he just really wanted to get the point across that there could be existent problems or oversights

[coral juniper]

We are aware

Which is why there is application process

that can be denied

or it can be revoked at any point

That is why there is moderation as well

[tepid lion]

Which is a good thing to atleast filter it out yeah

[coral juniper]

Main issue with things he was doing, and other do a lot as well is to fish for mis constructed developer replies which then people tend to use as base or excuse to do something shady (Not saying it is the case here)

But when moderators spot that, they might do something to stop and mitigate it.

This is why you will see other green names stop or go in a circle at certain cases

It is what seemed to happen here as well.

[small hamlet]

Morbid curiosity for APL-ND / APL-SA.

Say we're releasing samples of a project under APL-SA; is there a way to append / add to the license to prevent certain content being recreated using it?

I believe RHS has a similar policy r.e. the Russo-Ukrainian War, but curious to know how that can be implemented.

[inland sphinx]

RHS can do it by making it APL-ND, but choosing to tolerate derivatives that they consider to be fine.
Even with APL-ND on the mod, you can give anyone the permission to make a derivative anyway

[rugged prawn]

Just don't call it APLSA, just call it custom, and use as basis the text of SA and add whatever or remove whatever. You can make whatever terms you want as publisher. You can put that by downloading people owe u a banana and if they don't give you one they are technically violating your eula. All these licenses are just usable templates

[small hamlet]

Roger that, I think I understand - in that vein, would something simple like this work?

This repository is released under Spearhead Expansion Project Public License (SEP-PL), a full summary of which can be found below.

With this licence you are free to adapt (i.e. modify, rework or update) and share (i.e. copy, distribute or transmit) the material under the following conditions:

• Attribution - You must attribute the material in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the material).
• Noncommercial - You may not use this material for any commercial purposes.
• Arma Only - You may not convert or adapt this material to be used in other games than Arma.
• Share Alike - If you adapt, or build upon this material, you may distribute the resulting material only under the same license.

Depictions of groups involved in war crimes

Cover Fire Studios do not condone or support the actions of groups involved in war crimes, and as such have chosen to prohibit the depiction of insignia, symbols or flags associated with these groups that are not otherwise included in the main Spearhead Expansion Project mod.

[fiery egret]

I'm not a lawyer, but IMO it's not really clear what exactly you're prohibiting here and you may want to be more explicit with what it is that you cannot do with the mod

[small hamlet]

I'm awful at wording things like these admittedly. 😆

[fiery egret]

Like if you don't explicitly state something like that you prohibit the use of your mod on servers that depict those insignias or use mods that depict them, then someone will surely try to misinterpret your text in a way that fits them

[small hamlet]

Aah, I get what you're saying. Hm. Will have a further think about that.

[fiery egret]

Yes, because in your license all you're saying is that you prohibit the depiction of some symbols.
Okay... good, "so what?" 😅

[tepid lion]

Ai can create an EULA no problem

I thought about making one but APL-ND works just fine

[small hamlet]

I think that's sort of what we're trying to get at, in a sense - "we allow [X] as it's something we've included - [Y] is not allowed as it's not something we've included." Basically trying to nip the weirdos that want ever Waffen-SS / etc insignia under the sun in the bud.

Like, we emulate Spearhead's approach - i.e. it's all generic symbols, insignia representation is fairly limited / simplistic, etc.

[abstract crest]

Also might consider a different term other than war crime, since you are limiting symbols from certain irl military/paramilitary groups I assume. Do you mean proscribed groups, and if so proscribed by whom? Do you mean groups/units accused of war crimes (that can include NATO military units), those convicted of war crimes. Just might want to make that less vague too

Alternatively, leave it to BI and just report mods that derive from yours to BI because depiction of groups is something that they deal with now 🤷

[slim roost]

Theres a mod with the following in its descrition: "It is forbidden to use the contents of the mod, its parts and fragments on any game servers without prior approval from the author of the mod."

Is that enforceable?

[calm ridge]

That seems like it shouldn't be a public mod 🤔

[alpine smelt]

Quick question: We will add this to our application, but to avoid submitting only to get denied for this reason, I wanted to clarify upfront. We really don’t have plans at this point to monetize beyond (if permitted) offering a priority queue for donators. Since they’re helping keep the lights on, we feel it’s fair to give them that benefit. Would this be allowed?

[abstract crest]

Don't know the answer to that myself, is a priority queue a gameplay alterer - it is, you get to the game faster, but does gameplay just mean in game? But reason I commented, remember that right now if you give someone priority queue they have to be admins on the server 👀

[near swallow]

Right now there aren’t any systems in place for a priority queue for regular guys

Only one for admins

[haughty sinew]

Morning 🙂

Had a quick query about the Licensed Data - I downloaded one to take a look as I was interested whats included. The file is titled ALDP_A2OA_PBOs_DPL_APL_part1.zip

The P3D files inside the zip dont open in Object Builder as theyre binarized, would I be right in assuming then that these arent intended to be used/modified, despite being APL as it would require debinarising which would be against the license terms?

[covert bear]

LDP data is still binarized, only the Sample packs contain unbinarized(source) data

[lavish basalt]

That zip is only to tell which files are licensed under APL/ADPL etc

Not the source of these files

[steep niche]

Question so are mod developers allowed to tell you aren’t allowed to use their mods on your server . Or am I able to use any mods that are in the workshop since they are public ?

[haughty sinew]

Thanks @covert bear @lavish basalt, good to know!

[wild copper]

@slim roost Because it's the same question:

https://reforger.armaplatform.com/news/workshop-licenses-and-ip-faq

"Q: Can mod authors restrict who uses their mod?"

TL;DR yes they can put that in their license, but BI will not be involved in enforcing it, unless your server is monetized. The mod maker can take their own legal action against you, but I have no idea what that is.

Mod makers are allowed to alter their mods so that they do not function on servers they do not want using their mod, but it cannot negatively affect the player experience. It isn't clear what that looks like, but BI have said you can configure the mod to not work at all or use watermarks, but at the moment it seems mostly case by case. If a mod uses a malicious technique to enforce their license (e.g crashing a server) then BI will remove the mod from the workshop.

That said, if your server is monetized you MUST have permission from the mod makers of all the mods you use to use their mod on a monetized server. If you don't, BI will remove your approval to have a monetized server, and take further action from there (I'm not sure what that is).

Also 3rd question from the bottom here

https://www.bohemia.net/monetization/faq#!#c9

[small hamlet]

Slow response here, apologies - it's a difficult one. Target goal is to allow people to retexture our uniform assets and so forth, without allowing them to go haywire and start doing every Waffen-SS / etc unit under the sun. We're still tackling some ourselves using fairly non-descript names (see; Men (French Volunteers) in Sturmtroopers), but want to restrict people to either adding to what we've done without making it... overtly weird, I guess?

I'm probably not explaining this in a particularly clear manner.

[vast stump]

BIs own policy already prohobits swastikas and such I recall.

[small hamlet]

Interesting. So that'd clap the likes of GEIST, the Spearhead 1944 Realism Project, etc?

[vast stump]

@coral juniper wasnt this the case?

[tepid lion]

The photo I referenced above yeeted and deleted

That didn’t last long

[near swallow]

Well this is a turn of events I didn’t catch

[tepid lion]

Never thought you’d see that in reforger eh

[coral juniper]

What is this from?

[tepid lion]

It’s gone. Been gone for a year forget what it was exactly.

[near swallow]

Certainly wasn’t something I expected to see today

[coral juniper]

Good. I was about to take the hammer.

[near swallow]

Now if I had to guess…

[tepid lion]

I atleast hope it’s gone

[coral juniper]

It is the case.

[small hamlet]

Just to confirm - does this apply to A3 as well?

[vast stump]

As far as I know yes.

Steam worksop is more difficult to moderate though.

[small hamlet]

Yeah, I imagine.

Hm. Still need to work out a way to word our license, but I think I can theorycraft something.

[polar veldt]

Is this old? Lmao

[polar veldt]

Tell that to forged in Europe have had swastikas for years now lol

[tepid lion]

Tbh that might be the mod @coral juniper

But I think the other portion was removed do not quote me

[polar veldt]

The literal hitler model tho is hilarious 😂

[tepid lion]

It’s goofy to even see in reforger it caught me off guard when I first saw it in a server

[polar veldt]

Where’s the screenshot from?

[tepid lion]

Old idk

[coral juniper]

It being in an old mod does not mean it is allowed...

[polar veldt]

No I know it’s just surprising considering another mod that had done that and existed for a couple months was warned but this mod been around for longer still nothing tberes some real hater out there 😂

[icy linden]

I suppose it is based on reports sent about the mods as there's no background audit going on its own

[tepid lion]

Issue is I don’t think someone wants to take their time to file a report via email.

@coral juniper how does the in game report system work on your guys side.

Do you receive a flag/notice somewhere for a report?

[coral juniper]

How do you expect us to know every single content and asset fo each mod, over each update of them?

There is more than 10k mods

And there is even more unlisted

[small hamlet]

What's the reporting process look like for flagging mods like that? Is it a miscellaneous email address, or is there a purpose-built form?

[coral juniper]

in-game workshop report button

or [e-mail]

[coral juniper]

If your in-game report needs a follow up. You will be sent an email back using th email from the account you reported from.

[coral juniper]

There is a system, yes.

[lime belfry]

i rmebr someones ww2 mod had the symbol for the GM showing the german soldiers but that is still around im pretty sure

[lime belfry]

yup

[tepid lion]

@coral juniper @lime belfry whats the mod

it’s forged in Europe

ofc it is

[lime belfry]

not the only flag ether

[polar veldt]

True it’s had that for wel over a year and a half

Mods just so badly made no one bothered to report

[subtle spade]

and this is why we used the x

and the iron cross hell we didnt even dare to add black uniforms for the sake of not crossing lines lol

[worn frigate]

Wikipedia references the flag of Germany as such for the time period the mod covers...

I limit the use of swastikas only for the flag, and faction. If requested I can modify it if absolutely necessary.

[worn frigate]

You know what. I'll just change it nbd

[worn frigate]

All set.

If I could file for an exception, please let me know the process

[blazing nest]

Is there arma 2 ambient/environment sounds anywhere in data?

[grim portal]

Not sure where to ask this, but if I was paid to do a project involving Eden Editor (e.g. editing a scenario in said tool), does Arma 3' Tools EULA apply, or just Arma 3's EULA? And in either case, does this count as commercial usage forbidden by their agreements?

I would assume only Arma 3's EULA applies, the most relevant clause being this one:
https://www.bohemia.net/community/licenses/arma3-end-user-license

3. End User's Obligations
   B. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to:
   iii. Exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cybercafe, computer gaming centre, computer aided training center or any other location-based site where multiple users may access the Program.

[vast stump]

Yes that would be commercial use and forbidden.

[grim portal]

Thanks! Would that also hold true if Eden Editor's involvement was incidental to the work being provided?

This is more closely related to my last recruiting post #creators_recruiting message , where we expect Eden Editor to be involved in their workflow, but the end result would only be the written source code sent to us directly. I assume the post was fine given that I wasn't warned, but Vicious is concerned about it, so I thought I'd ask to make sure.

[vast stump]

"free services" can not be offered on top of paid services. that would be just sly way to circumvent the non commercial clause

if someone can sell you working sqf code without testing it in game then I recall that was allowed. but you might get some AI generated slop that just dont work and lose money

they could not offer you game implementation for free on top of writing the code

[grim portal]

ahh, so integrating their code locally to playtest it would fall under that too?

[vast stump]

I believe so at least

money and modding dont mix too well

[grim portal]

alrighty, ill drop playtesting for now and see if we'll still keep the payment offer for future posts

[keen pivot]

Did anyone got reply of some sort from takedowns email? Waiting for over two weeks now

[coral juniper]

Send me in DM what email you used to send it. Cant seem to find anything related to your discord name at least.

[keen pivot]

Done

[vagrant ether]

Heey heey, this might be a silly question, but how do I make it clear that I created said IP and that I hold all rights for it? 🙂 (I dont have much experience with virtual modding ((protection)).
For more contest: I created an IP. (includes: Lore/weapons/gear/assets/terrain ect) how do I protect it from being "stolen" in the modding scene? (I am a nurse, so I dont know much technical/laws outside medicine/nursing. -> I am learning Enfusion to switch carreer from Nurse to Game dev/level designer, so I use Enfusion as the step before unreal))

Thank you for your time 🙂
hope to hear a reply when you've got time ^^.

[celest sundial]

There is nothing for you to do to protect it. Don't publish it under a license that allows things you don't want. E.g. choose APL-ND or custom "all rights reserved" license. If someone reuploads parts or full contents of your mod send a takedown notice for it.

[vagrant ether]

Thank you for the reply.

Thanks for the clarifiction, I am a bit new to this so this kind of information is quite handy for me. Thank you for your time, it helped me further!

[rich lotus]

https://www.bohemia.net/community/licenses

[sand cobalt]

If you're concerned about protecting the IP outside of Reforger I'd look into licensing.

[prime pollen]

This all depends on exactly how the wording of the contract is written, and terms are defined.

I can absolutely do stuff for free for people out of my own good will, but only doing it after a sale is very suggestive that they paid for the ‘free service’ the lines need to be distinguished in legalese

[sick bane]

whoever updated workshop api is a godsend, just uploaded a 20gb mod, am downloading now at 12 GB ( 48 /s) steady

It hasn't even been five minutes

This is also while I am sftp the mods to the sever

[wild copper]

The contract doesn't matter, what matters is if BI interpret what you did as using BI products for commercial purposes. What equates to commercial purposes isn't very defined in the EULA for good reason

[prime pollen]

Well they can interpret the legal document that states I can gift people things at my own discretion, and lying on a legal document is fraud/perjury

The part that’s against the rules is if it’s not my own discretion but part of a sale

Legal documents are not open for interpretation as all things and language are predefined in the document

I can sell someone a model, and then a month later that person can ask me to put it in the game for them, if I do it for free that is not part of the sale, I can also decide not to, it’s my choice

But they want to throw all those instances in the same category of monetization because apparently people that sell things are not able to also gift people things in their eyes

It’s probably just easier for them to throw all those instances in the same basket and enforce them even though it may not be true

[wild copper]

if you only give your mod to people who have given you money in the past then that is gating access to your mod which is against the EULA and GCUR

If you have a proven history of giving away mods or implementing mods for other people for free then that would help your case, but otherwise it would be not be out of the realm of possibility for BI to interpret that scenario as you selling a service that uses BI products.

[wild copper]

This is why the EULA and to an extent the GCUR are relatively broad, so they can use their own discretion when taking action on a case by case basis

[wild copper]

This is also just not true. This is why judges and lawyers exist lol

[prime pollen]

Judges and lawyers are there to find flaws case by case, if the document has no flaws they have no jurisdiction

If they do find a flaw there needs to be sufficient evidence to support the claim beyond a reasonable doubt

[vagrant ether]

O thanks! 😄 yeah I need to take a look into that, because I have no idea how I can make sure that my IP is protected 🙂

[prime pollen]

Contracts can include clauses that explicitly state that they supersede previous agreements, either written or oral, related to the same subject matter. These clauses ensure that the current contract is the complete and exclusive agreement between the parties.

[vagrant ether]

Thanks for the link, I definitly need to take a look into this more into detail to protect my IP 🙂

[vast stump]

@prime pollen you would basically have to show you actually make the implementation for free for everyone to have any chance of that not getting you burned.

If you do it only for people who have paid you it is likely to be seen as extension of the paid service

[prime pollen]

Exactly I agree

[vast stump]

If you want to debate or discuss that further you can talk to Mario about it.

For most cases it would be a no.

[dawn canopy]

I am making a Tarkov themed HUD for the players stance, noise, etc... On the lower left of the display, I've used in game icons.

I didn't copy them, I'm just using their file paths, am I allowed to do this or do I need to make my own?

[meager fractal]

you are perfectly fine using the game files within the game itself 🙂

[dawn canopy]

I appreciate it! It never hurts to ask! ❤️

[normal pond]

APL-ND allows reuploads, if you want to have the only copy out there, don't go with it.
Just avoid APL linceses

[unreal egret]

Ok I know we can’t copy stuff from arma 3 to Reforger….but can there be a special exception for Redburger and Bluking 🍔 🙏

[meager fractal]

copy the models no, but mimic the brand I would say it's in-universe so it's fine 😄

[vagrant ether]

Thank you for the clarification! 😄 this helps a lot! ^^

[wind beacon]

I am not sure if you're speaking in the context of US law or what... But in the context of civil litigation it's a lot more complex than what you lay out. And there is such a thing is preemption and common law which can make certain clauses within civil contracts null and void.

Additionally, in the context of civil litigation. It is not the burden threshold of beyond a reasonable doubt. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard used in the United States in criminal law, not civil tort and contract law.

[icy linden]

Okay so imagine I am making a mod that includes things like sounds and models that were purchased and I want to add a contributor to the mod.

In order for the contributor to be able to update the mod on their end, they need to be able to access the mod files.

To enable them to access the mod files I need to distribute them to the contributors.

I do not have the rights to redistribute the purchased assets.

Therefore, I cannot have contributors added to my mod, correct?

[wild copper]

It depends on the license, a lot of licenses allow you to distribute the models amongst your "team", the problem is when it's distributed ready-to-use publicly

[inland sphinx]

You could split the licensed things into a second mod.
So that your contributors only get the packed version of that mod, and load it as a dependency. So they do not need the original files to work on it. Unless they are supposed to work directly on the models/sounds..

[fiery egret]

Depending on what the mod does, I guess you could also do the final build on the CI and have that CI added as the contributor as well. The other contributors would just be pushing the changes to the repo

[icy linden]

Right

[coral juniper]

Be aware that some sound libraries only license you to use the sounds in a transformative manner, or require that you distribute them using either an in-house container or audio file format that is sufficiently difficult to extract.
In the case of modding with our addon files and the fact that we do not have our own audio file format... many of these licenses are not technically suitable for use in AR mods

[icy linden]

Yeah I know models can be distributed as xob to contributors but sound being wav is a different story, thank you

[cedar pine]

how do I know that bohemia interactive received my email about the IP violation?

[vast stump]

was it a report of someone else doing something or report of your IP being misused?

[cedar pine]

About my IP being used by someone

[vast stump]

Have you waited for long?

[cedar pine]

Waiting a week for a reply from MarioE (He said to DM him if needed) and 3 days by email

[vast stump]

could probably DM him now just in case.

There might be some backlog in the emails though

[cedar pine]

I don't mean to be annoying because I've already sent a “kindly remind” message 😦

[icy linden]

It's ok mario ignores me too

Patience

[coral juniper]

2-3 (counting today) working days ago

Dont expect some answer during weekend btw or holidays

But seen now. I will check.

Some other things are being handled at the moment. Sorry for delays.

[cedar pine]

No problem, just wanted to know if there were any mechanisms to know that the email was accepted

[celest sundial]

yes, if it was not you will get a "failed to deliver" email back from your provider

[vagrant ether]

Heey heey,

I've got a question (again) regarding laws and rules regarding Owned IP's.
The short version of my question is:

I am making a "game" within the Enfusion engine, does this mean that I can legally do this? (It will be a MOD but it is so large in content wise that it is basicly its own game, including its own mechanics/"gamemode/gameplay" /assets/weapons/gear/creatures/Terrain/Story(Own written IP) ect.)

And lets say I licence this concept fully, does this mean that for example BI doesnt "take my mod" and claims it as its own basically? (Not assuming you guys will but just to be sure I am legally coverd).
I am asking this since I want to pratice my concept and to learn more about game engines before I for example do this thing in UNREAL engine for example. (so I can legally monetize it). (also it will be my next step into my conversion from nurse to game developer).

I might know that this is one of the silly-er questions you guys receive.
Also sorry for any english grammar mistakes.

I hope to hear a reply! 🙂

[vast stump]

it would not be its own game. Reforger would still be the game and your project would be total-conversion mod or near total conversion mod.

whatever you make for the mod belongs to you though.

@shut forge Im not appreaciating your emote use here.

Im hoping theres solid good explanation for that or it may be 🚪 for you

[rugged prawn]

Enfusion is not a good platform to do this legally speaking. No matte the scope, same TOS and EULA terms apply, so it will always be a mod. So they would forexample stop your distribution at any time if it is deemed necessary

Something like UNREAL would be better, however if Enfusion is something that you are determined about, you should perhaps apply for the Bohemia Incubator https://incubator.bohemia.net/

[old jay]

In this particular instance, Unity or Unreal will be the better option. Also, Unity / Unreal have far better documentation.

[rugged prawn]

Incubator could open up the doors for more legally commerciallyu safge options if your pitch is correct

[vagrant ether]

Heey HorribleGoat, thanks for your reply, yeah I am well aware that it is not its own game since it is still a mod. But due the size and effort and the adjustments it make you can almost call it a "game" therefor the " around the word game.
I just want to make sure that what I am doing is ok and what I am expecting is correct 🙂 I dont want to make any false assumptions therefor it is safer to check things out with you guys from Bohemia 🙂

[vast stump]

its important to talk about it in real names

if you talk about it as its own game that confuses things

calling it a mod keeps it in its own space on top of the original game

for example my Lost Dragons project is a total conversion for Arma3 but not its own game

so call it a mod like it is and its fine

[vagrant ether]

Heey FM, Thanks for the tip! 🙂 The (plus) I got from using Reforger/Enfusion is that it is easy for me to test of the concept I've made is "correct" and provides the playerstatisfaction that it needs to be a solo game.
Personally I am bit to affraid that (since I have no real experience in the field itself) I totally misfire the mod by for example that I didnt think things completly fully out. So in otherwordst, I am very insecure about going so deep direcltly without the right practise. (Basicly jumping in the deep water without learning to properly swim.)

[vast stump]

and like I said youll own the original content you make for it

[vagrant ether]

Heey Soul_assasin, thanks for the tip! I will definitly take a look into this. I am just a bit insecure since the lack of experience I have in "the field". Also I am a bit affraid that people will just take my concept and put their own claims on it.
For me it is more that I can test the concept and check if what I plan is seen as a "good" idea and fun to play. So I see Enfusion basicly as one big concept test before I turn it into a standalone game in a engine where I can legally ask money for my work. (paid product).

[vagrant ether]

Thanks, I will do this in the future. So yeah my mod will be a total conversion of the game.
I am just a bit affraid also about the legal side of things like this, for example I know my limitations and rules/laws in the medical field but this is completely new and I am just a bit affraid someone just takes my idea and runs off with it basicly. So i want to protect it within it's legal rights.

Thanks for clarifying this! 🙂

It is a very new situation where I am slowly getting in, step by step.
Within a month I learned how to import models, how texturing works, how to make my own ground textures for example ect, so this entire thing is a massive learning curve for me.

[vast stump]

your concept itself can be taken. just look at how many dayZ clones are out there. Unfortunately there isnt anything you can do to fully protect that once you go public

and if your thing becomes popular then that is likely to happen

that is the realism of it I think

[vagrant ether]

Thanks for clarifying it, I havent thought about it what way. (You see, still learning! ^^)
Well, I am not even close thinking what I make is gonna be populair, therefor I want to test the concept, before I put on the big shoes and make it a stand alone game. (I am just very insecure about things like this.)

[vast stump]

Sure imo modding can be good stepping stone for that

[vagrant ether]

Besides everything that I learn is some experience I can take with me to the "Unreal" project for example. I mean I have learned so much in the last month, things I didnt even concider I could do that, so it is also good as a reflection.
Also I can easily test public opinions by posting screenshots of the project to see if people "like" the idea and such, with direct feedback from example this discord or others.(examples are screenshots that I posted in the showcase in this discord)

[vast stump]

indeed yeah. skills needed for modding like that are basically same as required for game making

game making just involves a ton more stuff on top 😅

[icy linden]

Copy pasting scripts out of the game to files to test a language server is reverse engineering correct?

[celest sundial]

No. But reuploading them somewhere would be a copyright issue. If you do it in private it's not a problem

[shut forge]

its spelt ' appreciating ' just for your info 😉

[smoky oriole]

"its" is referring to possession, if you want to type the phrase out correctly you need to write "It's spelt..."

jUsT FOr YouR iNFo

[rugged prawn]

also you don't put spaces between the ' and the word they encapsulate. And for your info, you should have a comma between 'appreciating' and just

[vast stump]

his toxic behavior has already earned permanent vacation. This is not his first rodeo. No need to flock the dead horse.

[ocean thunder]

Hello!
I'm a big fan of the 2035 Armaverse and its lore. I've been working on a DayZ server project and retextured a few items with the IDAP logo as a nod to Arma's worldbuilding. I just wanted to check, is it acceptable to use the IDAP logo from Arma in this context? Pictures included for context.
I would also like to retexture some tools and construction items with the Vrana logo in the future.

[vast stump]

just to make sure, is this about DayZ standalone?

[ocean thunder]

yes

[stiff ruin]

Is there some kind of form for modders to fill out to approve monetization of said modder's mod? Or can the written permission needed be something more generic as an ask and an approval through discord chats?

Also with written permission from the modder, are they at right to revoke this permission at any point and time and if so are they required to inform approved server owners before the server owner hears from Bohemia?

[vast stump]

There is no format. But email defining the permission and it's conditions can be more formal way to conduct such a thing.

I don't think it is permanent and modder does have right to revoke it but I guess you can agree on how that should be done.

However it should favor the modder as their work is what's getting exploited to make money.

[stiff ruin]

Got it, that's pretty much how we were looking at it, just wanted to make sure we were looking at this correctly. And with what you said it aligns us better. Thank you for the response

[vast stump]

In case you are asked about permission it makes things easier if it's in written format with verifiable correspondent.

If it's with a modder in discord chat, people use different nicknames in here and in game/modding and I could see it being more difficult to see if you ever talked with right person even.

[cedar pine]

Hi, srry for being annoying, but any news on that?

[rich quarry]

What IP protection can I expect from BI for my mod? If my license clearly states "do not remove or override watermark" and someone goes and does jsut that. What action BI takes aganist them?

[dark tulip]

None, but you can send a report / DMCA to the mod which does that so BI can disable/remove the (breaching) mod from the workshop.

If you want to take legal action you will need to hire a lawyer.

[vagrant saffron]

correct me if I'm wrong, but "do not override watermark" doesn't sound like an IP right violation and can't be subject to a DMCA.
of course assuming that they just loaded another mod on top that hides the GUI element with the watermark or replaces it with an empty texture, not that they reuploaded author's mod with elements stripped out.

[vast stump]

if the mod has no derivates license then it cant be altered like that I believe.

removing someones watermark to make the work look like yours/someone elses is a bit disrespectful move too

[surreal yacht]

Not really, in my understanding, same as in A3 it can be patched by other mods if they do not alter its integrity. Which is possible for hiding an UI element (watermark), morally right or not being a separate thing.

https://reforger.armaplatform.com/news/workshop-licenses-and-ip-faq

[dark tulip]

So basically any form of DRM is allowed to be removed because "it doesn't alter it's integrity"...

It DOES break the license...

[vagrant saffron]

it can be, because the offending mod is not a derivative in legal terms. there is no copyrighted material from the original included. derivative != dependent. and that particular mod is not altered, the user loads two mods side by side that happen to affect the game in a certain way when loaded together.
of course it is disrespectful, but that's not an IP infringement unfortunately.

[icy linden]

it might be smart to make the watermark work in a way such that it requires modifying the mod itself in some way to get rid of it, instead of simply changing the vanilla game circumstances in a way where it doesnt show

[vagrant saffron]

yes, that is exactly the reality with enfusion. whatever DRM you come up with, someone else may just disarm using a modded script on top. which is a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it.

it MAY break the license, but think about this: I can create a mod that has dependency on X, but I don't ever have to download X to do that. I can just put their GUID in my mod dependency list (which is just a hex number that is publicly listed in the workshop). if I never download mod X, I am never agreeing to their license. these terms do not apply to me.

of course it's blatant that it's in bad faith, but it'd be a perfectly plausible defense in court. and good luck trying to get through with an international court case like that, it will easily take years and thousands of dollars.

[vagrant saffron]

that could potentially work, make it in a way that requires an IP infringement to workaround. but I don't think that's possible in enfusion, or at least I can't think of anything

[icy linden]

technically if my DRM class is called BaconDRMChecker and you add this in your mod

modded class BaconDRMChecker

Then just by adding my class name you have infringed on no derivatives license because it is my class name, as trivial of a modification that is (may not apply for vanilla classes of course)

The code that I write that is new and separate is my IP. There are exceptions, though.

[vagrant saffron]

see the BI post linked above:
And even though the other strings "APL_ND_LicensedMod" and "GetReasonOfLife" might appear more specific, they are usually also not protectable on their own. Copyright under Directive 2009/24/EC protects the expression of a program, such as its source or object code, but does not extend to ideas, principles, or functional elements like class and method names, which are necessary for interoperability (Article 1(2)). For example, in SAS Institute Inc. v. World Programming Ltd. (C-406/10), the Court of Justice of the European Union clarified that neither the functionality of software nor the programming language constitute a form of expression and therefore are not subject to copyright protection.

[icy linden]

Then how come all those mods got banned for copy pasting code

[vagrant saffron]

that's also explained in the post

[icy linden]

Yeah but the post is not legal advice so it doesnt matter

I will check out the directive tho

[vagrant saffron]

"it is not legal advice" doesn't mean "i can assume it's irrelevant because it doesn't line up with my expectations" 😄

[icy linden]

It's more like, if it was legal advice signed by some lawyer then I would simply trust it (even though lawyers can be wrong too)

[vagrant saffron]

this post gives reasonable arguments to assume "there would be strong arguments to challenge my claims in court", and most lawyers would tell you the same. keep in mind that even DMCA can be challenged by the other side (unless they know they're blatantly in the wrong and have zero chances of defending) and then you have to take it to court anyway.

[icy linden]

Okay so it seems like ideas and principles are not protected but the expression of those ideas and principles is

[vagrant saffron]

of course there are also local law intricacies on top of that and so on, so it will differ if both sides are in EU, or if it's some 3rd world country, etc.

[icy linden]

Which to me means how you build up those ideas and principles together (ie. how you write your part of the code) is expression

So if you modify the way how my code expresses my ideas and principles then you are infringing

I will go over this with an IP lawyer in a few weeks to make sure, until then I'm assuming that if I make thing and you include thing or change how thing works then it is a derivative

[vagrant saffron]

would you mind sharing their take on this after?

[icy linden]

bet

I think it'd be good to finally see something like that

[vagrant saffron]

btw I think the only solid way for a DRM would be to have extremely long methods with the DRM inlined inside. so in order to override it, one has to either copy-paste substantial amount of original code (which is an obvious infringement) or rewrite it preserving the logic (which is an infringement, unless they can prove they did a clean-room reverse engineering).

[icy linden]

it's very easy to make scripts that work on your server only, but I think the scripts we talking about here are the ones that are on clients

[vagrant saffron]

yeah right, server-exclusive content and server-oriented communities is not my pond at all. I have regular mods for regular joe in mind.

[icy linden]

does intent not matter? if I make something a certain way and someone changes how that certain thing works which goes against my intention or expression (ie. I want my work to do this and not that) when does it qualify as malicious intent?

[dark tulip]

No Derivatives - If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you may not distribute the modified material.
So removing/replacing a watermark (to stay within the example) is a derivative of the original mod, so based on the license not allowed (especially when specifically targeted on the original mod).

[chrome fox]

You are not modifying the licensed material and further distribute it.

This was explained so many times already, but maybe Arkensor or Mario will go over it again

[surreal yacht]

Not really as mentioned before, if you don't want your class to be modded then seal it.

[icy linden]

I'm going to add "get a definition of what build upon means" to the list

[icy linden]

actually based, was sealed keyword usable in modding forever?

[surreal yacht]

IIRC, yes

[icy linden]

but deriving from sealed classes is not possible, is there a workaround?

[surreal yacht]

it's even mentioned in the article, did anyone read it fully?
-# Or as usual people are discussing about stuff in it after briefly skimming it over?

If a mod author does not want their script APIs to be used in such a way, it is suggested that they use “sealed” on their classes to block inheritance and the “modded” keyword on a technical level. Similarly, member variables and methods of such a class should be “private” or “protected.”

[surreal yacht]

no, it's basically a final from other languages.

[icy linden]

thats fair

I keep forgetting it exists

[surreal yacht]

and modded is inheritance under the hood. Thus it will not be possible to mod the class.

Though... I wonder how putting a script under the same path as the original would be treated...

As that is very similar to the mentioned inheritance case:

For the same reasons as above, inheritance may not be considered Adapted Material. Even though the technical means are different, the kind of usage remains the same. Some might expect that because "MyMod" would not compile without the "APL_ND_LicensedMod" present, it builds upon it and thus is a derivative. This thought process is not unreasonable but leaves out the consideration of what "MyMod" is actually doing on a technical level. The same mod would also work if an entirely different, but compatible mod was offering the same methods under the same names. Because this interoperability is possible, and the only common ground is the programming language used (which neither author owns) the connection simply can not be made that "MyMod" must be a derivative of "APL_ND_LicensedMod" and would be forbidden from publishing.

[icy linden]

It will just complete overwrite it

[surreal yacht]

I know. Thus technically it's not a derivative. I mean the path is not really the "creative expression of the author, and thus not copyrightable"

[icy linden]

But it would be malicious intent

[surreal yacht]

I guess

[icy linden]

You dont accidentally modify a file called Game/1234567ABCDEF/BaconScripts.c

For modders that make scripts called scripts/Game/TAG_ScriptComponent.c it doesnt apply since severe skill issue

[surreal yacht]

Listen here, you little s...

[vagrant saffron]

yeah, sealed is not a definitive solution because entire script file can get overwritten.
my point is however that you can restrict/demand anything you want in your EULA, even that the user agrees to wear shorts in the winter and otherwise they owe you $100. but that's not an IP infringement and you need to go to the court to enforce that (and realistically this is out of reach for majority of modders).
but if something is an IP infringement, then BI as a publisher of the workshop is required by law to take action, which can be leveraged.
so in my understanding, one effectively needs to funnel the offender into an IP infringement to have any real agency.

[vagrant saffron]

actually hold on, big brain moment - put entire codebase of the mod in a single script file. voila, overriding it nullifies the mod.

[surreal yacht]

yes but... BI as the owner of the workshop can take down your mod on its own agency, so doing something with malicous intent while "ackchyually" not breaking IP laws can still get your mod or account banned anyway.

[vagrant saffron]

true, but you're at mercy of a completely arbitrary decision then

[icy linden]

this is a cool idea

I could make myself a repacker to just create one long script file from all scripts in my mod

whats the limit for how long a script file can be?

[vagrant saffron]

this could be even automated as part of a CI process

[icy linden]

there has to be some limit, maybe its string limit? maybe its 65535?

my galaxy brain idea is to store all scripts in an API and fetch them on game start and compile them with ScriptModule.CompileScript

though you cant use modded keyword with it

[vagrant saffron]

I'm tempted to give it a try later on, especially since I have a huge codebase in a single addon

[icy linden]

lmk if there's a limit

[vagrant saffron]

will do mate

[pliant phoenix]

Does adding items that are from another mod to my entity catalog so they can show up in my factions arsenal box count as a derivative?

[rugged prawn]

Some people will say yes, some people no. Technically should be yes because using anything from A to create anything in B is deriving something, but ultimately it's up to the interpretation of author of A whether they consider it as derivative and enforce their license or not.

[dark tulip]

According to BI it's not... 🤷
While the rest of the world says yes...

[coral juniper]

As an IP rights issue, in this case no.
As usage then yes.

They are different things.

Also it heavily depends on your license for the mod.

[icy linden]

Does BI have some sort of helpdesk where I can ask a question that would increase the likelihood of getting a response?

[coral juniper]

https://discord.com/invite/arma

[icy linden]

doesnt work

[mystic roost]

Professional Inquiry Regarding IP Rights and the Bohemia Interactive EULA for Arma Reforger Workshop

I have a professional question involving intellectual property rights, and I was hoping you could help clarify it, as you seem to have a strong understanding of these matters. This issue was brought to me through an unrelated community, but it directly relates to content created for the Arma Reforger Workshop, and I want to ensure I provide accurate and informed input.

I've been asked to mediate a dispute between a mod creator and several former volunteer contributors. The situation is as follows:

The primary mod creator uploaded the mod under their own license through the Bohemia Interactive Workshop. However, during development, they collaborated with a few volunteers who contributed primarily to texturing—no core mod development or scripting. These contributors never released their work under their own license, nor was there a formal agreement or contract established beforehand outlining ownership or usage rights.

Now, post-release, these former volunteers are asserting intellectual property rights over aspects of the mod they contributed to, specifically the textures. They claim that because they helped with asset creation, they are entitled to ownership or control over the entire mod or a significant portion of it.

My question is twofold:

1. From an intellectual property standpoint—both in general and under the terms of Bohemia Interactive’s End User License Agreement (EULA) for the Arma Reforger Workshop—how is ownership typically determined in cases where volunteer contributions were made without a formal agreement?

2. How would one go about navigating and resolving such a dispute fairly and in accordance with the relevant IP laws and Bohemia’s terms of use?

I’d appreciate any insight or guidance you can offer regarding the legal, ethical, and procedural aspects of this situation.