other_ip_topics

[silver slate]

Like for Fallouts example it would go Bethesda, Microsoft and Zen with Zen having the ultimate say

But In Halos case it’s Up to Microsoft only right?

[zealous ore]

not always the case - example with OG operation flashpoint - developed by BI and with Codemasters as publisher back in 2001 - BI still owns the content (and re-released it under their own Arma franchise name) Codemasters owns the OFP name and released 2 games that were dirt shit and as such put a lid on the ofp name altogether.

[zealous ore]

never actually cared so no idea if it is bungie or microsoft or whoever else

in general terms, game companies (and their publishers) do not really want their IPs portrayed in other games as mods because that could affect their own games sales since it would be in some way a direct competitor (even when some parts / assets were already released for their communities - like gsc did with stalker and like bi did with arma data packs)

[delicate charm]

I’m sorry but this seems fishy and unofficial. There’s plenty of Fallout mods out there for hundreds of games. Why would Bethesda care about Reforger ones in particular? The Arma 3 ones never had any problems of that type (I think they had problems related to using Bethesda assets but not with the whole IP). There’s a Fallout mod for Hearts of Iron that is hugely popular and they never got striked, and then there’s the guy who’s making New Vegas in Black Ops 3.

[autumn brook]

just because they appear to not care about it doesnt mean it isnt well within their rights to delete your mod from the internet per DMCA / IP law

[delicate charm]

Of course they can, I’m saying that they’ve never done so before so it seems weird they’re doing it now

What’s more likely is that there’s some legal misunderstanding between BI and Bethesda. Because the mod isn’t hosted by Steam or by a third party website but by Bohemia itself

[autumn brook]

bi may also have pre emptively removed it considering as they have done it previously from my understanding if they believe it infringes on someones ip or/ and breaks workshop rules and some they setup mainly to avoid 50 million warcrime or terrorist group mods

[delicate charm]

I wish they had just kept Steam Workshop

[autumn brook]

you me and 90% of players on pc man

[wild copper]

The last time we discussed this it came down to Microsofts GCUR clashing with Zenimax's EULA. Microsoft says you can create content based on any gaming IP that they own, Zenimax's ToS and FO76s EULA says you can't. There's been no clear answer on what supercedes what.

I will say that the GCUR mentions one specific exclusion to the GCUR, being Minecraft.

From GCUR:
"These Rules apply to all games and Game Content published and owned by Microsoft Studios and for which Microsoft owns the copyright, trademark or other intellectual property. The only exception is Minecraft"

From Zenimax TOS:
"You may not [...] create any derivative works based upon any Services"

That said it does say earlier in their TOS
"You acknowledge and agree that You shall not reproduce, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, publicly perform, or transmit any Content for commercial uses unless You obtained the express written consent of an authorized representative of ZeniMax."

From the FO76 EULA:
"B. in whole or in part, modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, attempt to derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Game"

Lots of clashes and we just aren't sure what supercedes what

[delicate charm]

I mean if it was a policy they actively enforced there wouldn’t be any Fallout fan made content for anything then.

[jolly jewel]

I was a part of the sunburst mod team, we had a vague approval and it was enough to get by but we also only got the green light from moderators on the discord which is not BI legal. once BI legal figured it out they asked for the perm letter which was obviously not the response of a legal rep from Bethesda and only a customer service agent. It ultimately was never allowed. Certain fallout devs started threatening to take eachother out and it dissolved at that point as the person from BI that handles it was made aware and thereofore shut down the projects all together. There is allowed to be fallout inspired mods as long as they follow copyright law of around 30% different type of deal

This also cmes down to BI covering there own behind. likely Bethesda would never notice us doing fallout stuff on reforger but you never know either and thats part of the protection they want

[delicate charm]

The smart thing to do would be to contact the Bethesda legal team directly and if they confirm it you’d forward their answer to BI.

Then again if the project’s dead it’s too late anyway.

From what I’m reading it was all BI doing

[midnight root]

Using this logic Stalker and Warhammer mods shouldn't exist

[jolly jewel]

BI reached out directly asking in the way that they have too and was told no

people tend to forget that doing things the right way by Copright law you can have things look very very similar and be legal

[delicate charm]

Fallout mods for other games just tend to not use the Fallout name in the title and they are fine for now. Still, legal bureaucracy and ip laws are ass.

[jolly jewel]

this is a fully IP legal NCR outfit @delicate charm @midnight root like i said this was already approved by BI as it follows copyright law. Now tell me would any casual fallout fan know the difference?

[midnight root]

Looks good as hell! Can we use that on the server?

All my flags are completely safe then, especially the FemLegion one

[jolly jewel]

i have those as well

[delicate charm]

The point is that if Bethesda wants to find issue with it they will, it’s just most of the times they don’t give a shit as long as people don’t make money from it.

The Old World Blues mod for HOI4 uses words and concepts that are copyrighted by Bethesda and they were never contacted.

[jolly jewel]

its one of those things that if there not big enough theyll be fine. if they are then they wont be fine

[midnight root]

Steam workshop and BI workshop follow different policies.

[autumn brook]

both would comply with DMCA

[delicate charm]

The mod is pretty big as far as mods go but it’s on steam

[dark tulip]

GCUR is about fanart, not content for other games...
So in all cases it's not allowed to make Arma mods based on MS products 🤷

[wild copper]

Where did you read that? On the page it says it's for derivative content and refers to "items". It also states "If your item is an app or website" which is defo not fan art

[light hazel]

Now the torrent download works but have 0 peers, did you do something there or was it just a coincidence?

[meager fractal]

Hi, can you give it another try? Cc @abstract crest
https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_2_Sample_Models

[light hazel]

Both working now, thanks!!

[abstract crest]

Yep, both fine now for me too. Cheers Lou!

[woven thunder]

Hello, I don't know if that's the good place to ask that but since that's concern the removal of my mod I take my chance.
Few month ago Ashyl join me to work on my mod, he got personal problems before having the occasion to start working on the mod but he showed to me how to use github , he published my mod on experimental branch but with his steam account and this mod is not up to date anymore. Can remove this mod from the workshop without problems ? Ashyl is not available for now.

[meager fractal]

it would be better if they could contact us - it would feel strange to be able to request other people's mods removal, innit ^_^
Cc @coral juniper

[woven thunder]

That's my mod but Ashyl published it from github while showing me the process of repository creation/usage (we are collaborators in github), technically I could remove it myself and Ashyl have no problem with that of course, just wondering if there is something that will detect that I'm removing a mod published by another BI account ? That sounds unrealistic but I don't now how it works ^^

[rugged prawn]

there is nothing technical about it. If it was published from his account, it is his mod from the system's point of view. He would have to request its removal

[woven thunder]

All right, I'll wait for him to come back

[coral juniper]

He himself has to remove it, or request us to remove it.

[woven thunder]

Thanks

[rugged prawn]

why not just release it under a smightly different name and your own account?

[woven thunder]

I'm not planning to upload the up to date version on exp workshop, that's just so the players don't get baited

I was looking at the new mods in exp workshop and came around that old and useless thing, completely forgot

[copper crescent]

Hey folks, I just want some clarification on how this is allowed in the Workshop?

This is clearly a one to one vehicle of a Ford F150 with no changes to the actual model itself, and is definitely not following the 60/30 rule. This is exactly what struck FiveM and ultimately had them change their PLA/TOS to ensure that manufacturers were not coming after them for takedown requests. I see the writing on the wall especially with this and setting the precedent for further creators may clear up some confusion. Can anyone elaborate?

Some further clarification on the changes CFX made and clarified that debadging is not enough to avoid a takedown.

https://forum.cfx.re/t/community-pulse-october-2023-edition/5176467#we-removed-all-branded-car-badges-from-the-real-world-car-models-we-use-on-our-server-are-we-following-the-pla-restriction-on-third-party-ip-2

[main sage]

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/rules
Related

I say that this limited license is suitable for any Microsoft game (except Minecraft I guess), except when asked to take something down. Should people get strikes for that? Eh, who knows.

[vast stump]

It seems to have been proven to not be the case.

[old jay]

And this is why the default answer is always "no".

[meager fractal]

"assume the no, prove the yes"

[old jay]

https://tenor.com/view/oui-ouais-yes-french-francais-gif-22722658

[jolly jewel]

Hey I’m curious to know who my point of contact would be to create an inspired project based on a IP similar to how galactic forces is able to legally and properly create a Star Wars like universe! I’ve attempted to reach out to Mario and Evan to no avail sofar!

[icy linden]

If you are creating a new IP why would anyone else be involved? Just do it

[grim sand]

Don't let your dreams be dreams.

[jolly jewel]

its inspired by another IP and im sure there was Guidelines and such that Galactic forces had to follow. Basically wanna see how close one thing can be per a precedent and such to be considered ip Compliant

[icy linden]

Spaceballs didnt get in trouble so I doubt Galactic Forces will

[jolly jewel]

yea but its easier to have more of a baseline to go off of and such

[inland sphinx]

Yeah well don't use any of their names.
Don't make anything look "the same" or "close to the original"

Look at it and think "That's Star Wars" == bad
Look at it and think "That looks like Star Wars" == good

[jolly jewel]

I think the concern is i think its all relative on what you interpret close to the original and can clearly tell what it is type of deal. I wanted to have a meeting with whoever to maybe run some concepts by we had made to maybe ensure were on the right track!

[vast stump]

there is no safe bet on that

[jolly jewel]

thats my concern is even projects doing the best they can like Galactic forces even safe? I dont want to put them in any sort of bad spot just more curious like if there precedent is safe and maybe get a green light that BI would be okay as long as there's a certain standard.

[vast stump]

I dont think there is any tangible standard for that

[jolly jewel]

but surely maybe enough to be left alone by BI atleast?

[old jay]

Contact Galactic forces and ask them what hoops they had to jump through.

[jolly jewel]

I have

definitely was one of my first thoughts

[old jay]

And their response?

[jolly jewel]

well i dont wanna air out laundry but there not really forsure either but have gotten by sofar lol

just some tips and stuff

[old jay]

Sounds like a good opportunity to walk away from doing something similar then.

[jolly jewel]

well that goes back to the same circle is how similar can really be attacked. its like is Star wars the only people allowed with white scifi armor ya know its that sort of question

[old jay]

"There are 1,100 federally registered trademarks and 3,952 federally registered copyrights related to Star Wars"

It only takes one "oops".

[jolly jewel]

yea im not trying to do that inspired world but still same type of concept of practice of an IP legal version

[vast stump]

why not just go with something more original

[jolly jewel]

just not the same vibe, when you wanna try to play a certain thing you try to play that certain thing. obviously within reason and adjustments and such to be more original but because of that.

[vast stump]

its just that trying to skirt the IP stuff is sketcy at best

[jolly jewel]

I understand and we wouldnt be looking for any type of loopholes just more or less trying to help work with BI to do the best route we can while trying to keep inspirations from an ip or a couple! and trying to find that healthy balance of inspiration and such!

[icy linden]

None?

[stray rover]

Likely none, I'm still a bit bothered by the fin on their helmets tbh.

[abstract crest]

Most are probably not enforceable in court though. But I do agree that it's better to just do a great sci-fi MILSIM one - always dubious about themed ones and back door monetization

The problem anyway is not that you have a mod with white ablative armour, it's that you wanted to make it look like Star Wars to do, well, basically, Star Wars. Also just an imo... Jesus, Star Wars is shite sci-fi... always has been...

[woven dagger]

Some of the Arma scifi mods out there are just absolutely sick

Like way better then star wars

[woven dagger]

It is tho

I don't mean to shit on your parade, but IPs do matter and I think it's annoying that some IPs are so strict but that's usually in Company's best interest, so yeah answering your questions is dudes in white armor a star wars only thing.

Pretty much yeah

I wouldn't even try entertaining the even slight possibility that you get contacted by Disney lol

I'm pretty serious about my work so I understand someone else being especially after having worked so hard on it.

I am a bit sad about 40k but oh well.

[meager fractal]

Spaceballs asked for permission

[icy linden]

Thank you for clarifying

[jolly jewel]

well its sort of my point, i want to try to be proactive and actually show the lengths were going to for doing this the right way and i seem to be getting no response while my buds message them about other things and get responses instantly lol

[vast stump]

It may be something they cant really give proper input on. as it could make them liable if you do something too close and IP owner takes action

[jolly jewel]

Thats fair point as well and seems to be what im thinking about

[meager fractal]

and as usual, you can ask for permission: you already have the no, all you risk is a yes

[woven dagger]

truth

[crimson garden]

BI can't give anyone permission to use an IP they don't own

[quick wigeon]

Appears that Fallout does NOT fall under the Microsoft game content usage rules, (same would apply to other IPs held through Zenimax)
Because GCUR applies to Microsoft Studios IP (I think this is Xbox Game Studio, based on what I could find),
And Zenimax (parent company of Bethesda), is held by Microsoft Gaming, which is above Microsoft Studios and doesn't appear to use the GCUR
The only people who can clarify this fully are the legal people of Microsoft Gaming (probably actually Microsoft legal, getting to the right people might be hard, since I can't much about Microsoft Gaming)

[late wyvern]

General question that I don't think has really been answered here. At least from my search.

If I was to create a map for Arma that was a 1:1 recreation of a map from a different title. Lets say an older title like Battlefield 1942, Battlefield 2, Call of Duty etc. If I was to remodel every asset, based on its original design as much as possible, would that be considered an IP rights violation?

For example, taking a map like Gulf of Oman, modeling every building on the map from scratch and then building the map in Arma Reforger based on the original design, is that an IP violation?

[cunning zinc]

In theory yes, but in practicality probably not.

[late wyvern]

Can you clarify what you mean by practicality? If its not a violation in theory what changes in practice?

[cunning zinc]

There is plenty of user generated content that are homages to other content that don't get struck down. If you follow copyright/patent law to the letter, then copying someone else's recipe would be a technical violation but one that's hard to prove and often times not worth the effort or potential backlash.

Most IP violations that get attention are ones that are straight rips from other content. Like if you ripped the models from COD/BF, or ripped textures, and put those into reforger.

[late wyvern]

Well yes any ripping would automatically qualify as an IP violation in my mind. That's why I'm clarifying that in the hypothetical scenario, the models are build from scratch using the original asset as a reference and that's it.

For instance, I think making Gulf of Oman in Arma Reforger using all Reforger assets would not be considered an IP violation as clearly it would be very different. No desert environment, European architecture, etc. Only the layout would remain the same.

But if we then recreate each building in blender consistent with their original design and added desert ground textures and vegetation, has it crossed over into an IP rights violation?

[cunning zinc]

In theory, it is an IP violation. Bohemia believes it is too, if you refer to question 2 in the FAQ: https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property

Whether anyone would have the desire to enforce it is only a non-zero possibility. DICE would probably never come to DMCA you over such a creation.

[late wyvern]

Completely glossed over that part of the wiki, thank you!

Upon reading that though it makes me wonder if, in the same example scenario, naming the map "Gulf of Namo" would then skirt the ip violation.

And yes I highly doubt that DICE or EA would ever pursue something like this. But it's more important in my mind to see bohemias stance on it since they have final say over what's on their workshop, regardless of if EA or DICE would be aware. Same reasoning as a Star Wars mod getting removed despite Disney not actively monitoring the Arma Reforger workshop

[cunning zinc]

Well Star Wars has a bit more drama behind it. If i recall correctly, Disney was breathing down Steam's neck over the A3 workshop.

But yes. "Gulf of Namo" inspired by BF2 Golf of Oman with somewhat generic assets, that's what Saul would say /s

[late wyvern]

Oof not even aware of any previous drama haha that might be a bad example then if there is a history there. But I'm sure you get the point.

[wild copper]

"Game Content published and owned by Microsoft Studios and for which Microsoft owns the copyright"

[old jay]

Most likely a violation.

However if you based it upon the real life locations that inspired it (supposedly the towns of Sur or Bandar E'Jask) and created your own content (that does not replicate/imitate BF3), that is a different matter.

For example, it is perfectly acceptable to create a terrain based upon the island of Tenerife (in the Canary Islands).

https://kronzky.info/theofpfaq/misc/realislands.htm

[quick wigeon]

Microsoft Studios, which is Xbox Game Studios from what I can find
And NOT Microsoft Gaming, the holder of Microsoft Studios, Zenimax, and Activision
I might be wrong, since the best source I could find was Wikipedia and the news articles it referenced

[wild copper]

I see what you mean. I think you might be right

[vast stump]

the thing here is to ask from microsoft representative or a IP lawyer

[wild copper]

How's this?

[vast stump]

not legal representative

just a chat bot

others have already been down that road without success

you would have to get in touch with their actual legal representatives

[wild copper]

Not a chat bot, it's from an actual support agent from the official Microsoft Support Twitter

I think if anyone challenged Zenimax derivative mods this would be more than reasonable

[vast stump]

this has been tried out already

didnt pan out

[wild copper]

As in, this was their proof and they still got DMCA'd?

[vast stump]

something like that I guess. I dont know the exact details. But I believe it started something like this.

[frank summit]

it wasn’t enough proof

[grim sand]

Homages are fine. Plagiarism is not.
But because you're using a different engine, custom but not exact buildings, a layout that could not be replicated perfectly - all of that would be a recreation, which they might be upset about but not much they could do about it.

You could probably get in trouble if somehow your naming caused confusion. So I'd probably name it something different if you're going to copy and paste it. But there's no way they could trademark the Gulf of Oman. So you're also most likely in the clear there too.

[late wyvern]

Its not actually a project I'd be pursuing as that amount of work is too much for me. It was more so a general question of IP law from the eyes of Bohemia. As in, would something like that constitute workshop removal. EA would likely never catch wind or care about the workshop item haha

[dark tulip]

1. wrong person to ask, as support employees (or chatbot) are not legal entities.
2. wrong question; try asking if it's allowed to use the IP of Microsoft in other games (not owned by MS)

[austere hare]

Doesn’t the chat say ‘virtual agent’?
So not a real person?

[vast stump]

still. this didnt pan out as far as I know.

[celest sundial]

I would say the same. Ask it for how to implement a binary addition from two strings and see if it is just chatgpt with an extra instruction

[jolly jewel]

it was the previosu Sunburst Dev team. there was no DMCA but it was still taken down. the owner of the studio got a message from support the same way but from bethesda support but it wasnt good enough in the end. IF and i say IF that ruling stands and Microsoft can give rights to allow a mod then they may be easier as they generally tolerate HALO and stuff

[jolly jewel]

Ask if there allowed to give perms lol

[coral juniper]

@wild copper Just drop the fallout thing as we do not allow it at all in the workshop.

It's fine if you make some new content that is inspired and not a blatant copy. But fallout itself is not allowed as stated before.

[muted tulip]

I’ll move my questions to here instead

So there can be Ukraine maps tho just can’t be from the stolen mods so like someone would have to make their own map without any of the stolen mods added correct?

[vast stump]

Stolen mods is not really right term here. the maker of those mods were banned and thus the mods also are gone.

[muted tulip]

Banned mods I apologize but Ukraine maps can still be made just can’t be from the banned mods or the maker of those banned mods right?

[vast stump]

yes. anyone whos not banned from mod making can make ukraine themed maps

[coral juniper]

It can't be derived from banned mods though

[vast stump]

👆

[coral juniper]

Even from their source, nor it can be tied to the banned modders

If they are found to be part of the team then the mod will be blocked as well.

Again, it is due to avoid ban evasion.

[muted tulip]

Ok I understand it now thank you

[coral juniper]

As for themes of current wars or past wars. As long as it is not depicting direct groups, real life people, offensive subject in the matter or bias towards some side or event then it is okay. It basically has to be as neutral as possible.

[torpid gull]

Ngl, it feels very disingenuous to rug pull several key communities who were here supporting the Arma team when exposed infrastructure got hammered for two weeks

I don’t quite get how a ban == removal of IP

[glacial plinth]

Hey quickly with the Fallout stuff, I know there’s some Fallout mod content in Arma 3 just curious on why it’s abit more restrictive when moving to Reforger? I’d imagine it’s probably permissions and stuff.

Might be a little confusing but curious if you got permission to do Fallout mods on Arma 3 would it be possible to keep those permissions when moving content over to Reforger or do the people have to get permission again specifically for Reforger?

[torpid gull]

It’s like everything can be taken away in seconds, despite so much work on top of what the brilliant artistic talent (not being sarcastic) has done at BI.
Why would anyone risk putting so much unpaid time into developing mods (that lead to things like DayZ) if a ban of a developer means everything is yanked away?

[coral juniper]

Those modders were supposed to read and understand EULAs, and ToU of the workshop

[vast stump]

there is no risk if one follows the rules

[coral juniper]

Before using the game, tools and services

[torpid gull]

100%, never disagreed there.

[coral juniper]

You do not get banned unless you break one of those or cause some actual issues.

[undone citrus]

So do we get some time to remove the mod?

[torpid gull]

However, honesty question, but why does that mean their content goes with them?

I’m not doubting they broke ToU

I support that action

[coral juniper]

Usually yes, unless it is bad.

Or you had second chance before, or rejected doing so.

Or were warned before.

As for DMCAs, in those cases they get taken down first. Then resolution later if there was an issue.

[undone citrus]

Reupload of a now open source terrain. Currently at work but will remove when I’m home

[muted tulip]

I think it’s 3 days to take down the mod

[coral juniper]

In order to avoid ban evasion

[muted tulip]

Don’t take my word for it that’s just what I heard let them answer that

[torpid gull]

Would you be able to clarify a bit?

[coral juniper]

It is very common for banned authors to continue by using others as proxy

[torpid gull]

Why not just ban other collaborators?

[undone citrus]

I mean I have zero connection to that og author.

[coral juniper]

When we find someone using one of the banned mods, or deriving from it. If they were not warned or notified before by us then they get 3 days to take it down themselves, or allow us to take it down without a ban.

[lucid sage]

What is considered a derivative or alteration is the question there? I hand remade the Serhiivka one for Project Identity, custom heightmap, satmap, shape imports, and replaced each entity including new POIs ETC. It did not come from SLs basemap, and the only thing that's the same is entity positioning and properties (I one by oned this one)

[coral juniper]

If they do not comply, then it is a ban.

[undone citrus]

Cool thank you.

[lucid sage]

Would I need to remove this as well? I'd prefer not to catch a ban

[torpid gull]

Yes

We have 7,000+ players in our servers, this impacts us too.

No exceptions.

[coral juniper]

It is unfortunate and it sucks, but no exemptions as this process is there to try to keep the rules enforced without loop holes.

[muted tulip]

Anyone using those maps kinda got a big wake up call on this one ofc their is time to adapt but definitely was a curve ball but considering the circumstances it makes sense for it to happen rules are rules

[coral juniper]

Big mod or not, they get treated the same.

[lucid sage]

So even though it's remade BY hand mind you, it's still a no go? Just want to make sure.

[muted tulip]

It least it was even and not one group got the worst of it WCS, SPEARHEAD and others all got delt this hand

[torpid gull]

I do completely understand that violations of ToU should be actioned, I just wish one person couldn’t impact the entire community. I would think there would be a better solution for this once the next game is released.

[muted tulip]

I agree with that

[glacial plinth]

If someone got permission to make mods from an IP (Halo, Fallout, etc) from let’s say Arma 3 would they be able to bring that permission over to Reforger or do they need to ask for permission again from that IP to upload stuff into Arma Reforger since they’re two different games.

[muted tulip]

Wouldn’t there be licensing issues with that?

Sorry I don’t know much I’m just trying to learn here

[vast stump]

probably one would need permission per project

depens on how its worded

and if it is from a source that actually can give such a permission 😅

[glacial plinth]

I’m not too sure tbh, some Arma 3 people want to bring their mods that based off popular IPs over to Reforger but there’s some uncertainty on whether or not they need to ask for permission again considering Arma 3 and Reforger are different games

[vast stump]

each IP has its own rules from the IP owner

there is no simple answer

safe bet is to ask permission

then there is no doubt

[muted tulip]

Understandable

[lucid sage]

Can you answer this one please?

What is considered a derivative or alteration is the question there? I hand remade the Serhiivka one for Project Identity with the map from GTT, so custom heightmap, satmap, shape imports, and replaced each entity including new POIs ETC. It did not come from SLs basemap, and the only thing that's the same is entity positioning and properties (I one by oned this one).. I want to be extra sure before I delete my mod lol. Which I am okay with doing if I have to.

[coral juniper]

If the map is truly different then yes, if it's basically the same then you might have other issues like it being considered substantially similar to the original IP.

[lucid sage]

That latter part is what I am worried about as the city is basically the same since I matched entity positions for the buildings. Would that constitute similar enough to be an issue I guess?

[coral juniper]

It's not only about code and such, but also designs are protected

[lucid sage]

Ahhhh gotcha

Well, I'll take it down then. Thank you 🫠

[coral juniper]

Fallout is generally not allowed outside of usage on it's own IP holders.

We can't and do not give permission ourselves on behalf of them.

[vivid solstice]

Then what’s up with the spearhead map?

[hot wolf]

If the mod team is banned, that means their work goes with the. Just because they put it out for public consumption does not mean that the public can continue using said mod without the makers being part of the game. That being said, that mod did not single handedly hold up reforger during the infrastructure outage. You are free to make a similar but different mod yourself and upload it if you would like. I am sure the commnity would love it.

[undone citrus]

How would we prove we made something from scratch?

[hot wolf]

Use different assets...make a different map...make your own arm bands, drones, etc.

If it's 1:1 identical...that itself is an IP violation.

[torpid gull]

And I’m saying I think this is a failing licensing program, then. If a map maker dies, is it the same story?

They are not saying it has anything to do with licensing.

They are saying it’s to mitigate ban evasion (???).

[hot wolf]

No...beacause their account would still be active. The licensing program is meant to protect BI from larger studios with more money from coming after them due to some modder ripping content 1:1 and putting it in the mod workshop

[torpid gull]

Like sorry but those mod makers that get banned are not simply walking away, no matter what BI does. In any case, it’s a rule that only impacts others.

[torpid gull]

Again, they are not claiming it’s a licensing issue.

[hot wolf]

It's a bit of both. Tbh. The mod team obviously violated the EULA and TOS of the workshop. Dont be mad at BI..be mad at the mod maker for violating the terms. I make mods myself...to get banned means you did something pretty bad and probably disregarded warnings from BI.

[torpid gull]

ok but the modder/map maker isn’t rug-pulling several large communities that drive profit (among others, i get that) for BI.

[hot wolf]

Theres not some guy at BI celebrating banning this mod. Banning content creators affects the community at large and affects the game. It's usually the nuclear option when all other methods have failed. You have three days, make new assets. BI is not obligagted to run your community for you.

[torpid gull]

Man I get that, there is no animosity with the BI staff here.

[hot wolf]

Well you are putting it back on them by saying that they are rug pulling several large communities. BI didnt choose this route. They were obligated

[torpid gull]

It’s a system designed to punish the banned party, but in reality, it only punishes everyone else.

It’s just flawed, that’s all.

[hot wolf]

For sure. No such thing as a perfect system. But its the one we have.

[torpid gull]

I mean, the game is in active development. Probably a great time to discuss it.

[granite shell]

Ur both not wrong everyone is getting screwed here

[hot wolf]

In due time, I am sure there will be several mods that replace the banned assets. Just takes time.

[torpid gull]

So why would anyone risk it?

[granite shell]

My only worry is playerbase how many more hits before people just say forget it and move onto another game

[torpid gull]

Are you saying the only way forward is to hand make all your own mods?

That seems comically oversimplified.

[sick bane]

it is what it is, theres other good maps/mods , move on to better things , no need to be upset about something in a game when you can explore other options within the same game

[flint star]

already more than 10 people said in the chats they will take a break & not everyone uses discord anyways

[hot wolf]

No, but the other issue here is that when you publish those mods to the Workshop, you get to choose which license you want your mod to operate under. That being said, if the mod maker made their license to not allow people recreate their mod or use their mod in any way without consent, then BI has their hands in a bind. Additionally, mod maker would have to give BI permission to keep the mod up...seeing that they are banned, doubt that would happen. Additionally, a mod maker could decide tomorrow to unpublish all their mods from the workshop and ther would be nothing the community could do about it either.

[sick bane]

in a way if you hand make your mods along with the maps, it provides more stability and less dependency issues. too many mod overhauls that cause dependency issues in the workshop.

[granite shell]

Yea but this isn’t cod every player counts

[torpid gull]

Hard to incentivize that when mod makers can’t even profit off of their work.

Such an odd system.

Woefully unstable atm.

[sick bane]

some don't do it for profit and simply just the community and experience

[flint star]

thats what im saying lol
arma 3 didnt use to be like this we had much more fun with modders

[hot wolf]

The Bakhmut themed mod was not the only mod running this game. People can take a break..but there will be something else that inspires them to play. Game is in development. Plenty of time for things to replace that mod.

[torpid gull]

Alright, anyway, message received 👍

Kick rocks ✔️

[sick bane]

don't forget to have fun

[torpid gull]

Trying

[sick bane]

me too

😭

[torpid gull]

😭

5k in A3

Already 1k in Reforger

It was not like this in A3

[sick bane]

this game has a lot of potential, and damn I have 500 rn in reforger

[granite shell]

Wasn’t talking about just that but ok

[torpid gull]

The guy is hellbent on supporting BI

“Is what it is”

[hot wolf]

Well it is their game.

[torpid gull]

That you paid for

[hot wolf]

I paid for the PRIVLEDGE to play

[torpid gull]

I wont argue in here though. Agree to disagree.

[flint star]

that is paid

[granite shell]

Lmao ok

[sick bane]

that $40 for this game and the 500hrs of gameplay to me is simple; its worth it

[torpid gull]

All I needed to see lmao

[granite shell]

I was all for you until you said that

[flint star]

🤣🤣🤣

[granite shell]

With that logic it’s a privilege that BI even has jobs

[hot wolf]

Modders are incentivized for their work. Its called make your own game. You are just adding assets into a game that someone else made. You are subject to their licensing. Additionally, I dont want to pay for mods.

[torpid gull]

Explain DayZ

[sick bane]

Dayz is bohemia?

[torpid gull]

No.

[flint star]

what a privilege they have we pay for their game and spend hundreds of hours modding 😂

[hot wolf]

Became their own game that was bought by BI

[flint star]

pubg?

[torpid gull]

Make your own game argument is coming out, gg

[hot wolf]

Paid for licensing of assets

[sick bane]

I think its more of the enfusion engine at this point, if the game uses it then its subject to BI's licencing is it not

[hot wolf]

Yes precisely. Just like if you use UE you are subject to their licensing too

[sick bane]

makes sense

[granite shell]

Here it comes

[torpid gull]

Yep

I see it

[vast stump]

but it is the mod maker who pulled the rug

and also going a bit off tangent here it seems

[zealous ore]

it is a bit more than simply adding assets, but i get your point.
modding is a hobby. if you have the resources (time and money) for it, sure, if not, also sure

that being said, this is going offtopic

[vast stump]

looks like fallout power armor

[torpid gull]

I’ll make sure our hobbyists understand this is the perspective, then. Thank you for providing that clarity.

[granite shell]

Why does every chat involving arma get so heavily censored

[sick bane]

that mask looks like an oni, and 100% agree w PuFu , modding is def a hobby

[torpid gull]

Isn’t this all?

[granite shell]

People are gonna be mad it happens it will run its course and be forgotten about

[vast stump]

people need to think more than get mad

[sick bane]

if you aren't having fun modding, then you should reconsider what the aspect of a hobby is

[granite shell]

My guy it’s been a rollercoaster lately people are gonna get upset

[hot wolf]

Could send them here to make it not a hobby: https://careers.bohemia.net/positions

[torpid gull]

Yeah that’s a bit tone deaf

I get the frustration, truly, from the BI side. Can’t please them all, appreciate the game you’re building, just wish it wasn’t always a scramble when there’s a mod shakeup.

Very helpful Jedi!

[vast stump]

It is very unfortunate that this seems to be happening more frequently. But the rules of the tools in Arma games have been the same for like 20 years or so.
Bringing money into the equation of modding is relatively fresh phenomenon and has brought the community mostly trouble.

Anyone using mods in community servers will need to vet their mods carefully to avoid problems like this.

[torpid gull]

That’s fair.

Thank you for hearing us out.

[vast stump]

Donations are still a thing though.

[torpid gull]

It’s very dangerous in our eyes to allow any kind of transaction regarding mods or modmakers, but I hear that.

[vast stump]

but for examply CUP in Arma3 has over million subscribers but they still pay most of their expenses out of pocket

[torpid gull]

Dedicated to the community I suppose.

[vast stump]

for sure

they never pursued money either.

[jolly jewel]

did send you a DM on this subject!

[coral juniper]

I missed it then. Did that over there answer it?

[jolly jewel]

its okay and yea it seems to i suppose, Maybe would like to still set something up when you get free time (No rush though)

[undone citrus]

How will we be contacted for potential mod bans? Email?

[meager fractal]

the BI account e-mail I believe yes

[undone citrus]

Ok cool thanks

Most likely be a @bi email?

[meager fractal]

most likely
if you receive one from whitehouse.gov, worry

[coral juniper]

When a mod or account gets banned, you get an email

You also get contacted in discord if we are able to identify you unless you were contacted before, or warned beforehand.

Depending on the issue, you might get contacted before any ban.

[undone citrus]

I get those with my job 😂😂😂

[undone citrus]

It’s only when and not a warning before?

[coral juniper]

Read the last thing I mentioned 🙂

[undone citrus]

Unfortunately bi account name and discord name are different

[coral juniper]

In those cases, it's the ban with the subsequent email

Then they can reach out and if the offense was not that bad

It can be lifted if the modder takes out offending content or practices,

This is the second chance but there is only one second chance

And it is only given if the offense was not that bad or there were no previous warning of any sort.

[undone citrus]

10-4 just want to clarify. There wouldn’t be. I’m a good boi. Hence all the questions. Just kinda dumb at time.

[graceful galleon]

Btw why are yall so all over fallout mods? ArmA exist thanks to mods like these. I dont think Bethesda even knows Arma as a game exist at all, yet that there is a mod in that game with that IP and honestly doubt they would even care if they knew that there is a mod...

[coral juniper]

It's not just fallout.

Any game that you do not have specific legal rights to use or IP is forbidden.

It's just that people have high tendency to try to mod that IP into games.

[graceful galleon]

But even if i would get license from Bethesda i would not be allowed here.

[coral juniper]

It's also the community that has made more noise about it.

[coral juniper]

That has been answered before that it is not allowed.

So they are not allowed

Things that people have posted before were not valid and not in proper context.

It's a done decision. They are not allowed.

[graceful galleon]

[old jay]

MarioE, Could we get that statement or a more succinct statement pinned?

"Any game that you do not have specific legal rights to use or IP is forbidden."

[celest sundial]

What he is trying to say is that others have asked MS/Bethesda in the past, they said no. We are telling you so you can spare yourself the time. Documented here: https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property

[graceful galleon]

Ewww.. Star trek seems to be tolerated

[old jay]

Do remember, "seems" does not mean allowed.

If usage is not explicitly stated, the default answer is that it's not permitted.

[graceful galleon]

Still.. star trek 🤮

[old jay]

To each their own.

[jolly jewel]

I mean Halo isnt a direct yes and seems to be but there not enforced

[lethal cape]

Are we finally going to be free of Serhivka?

[vast stump]

for example Tiberian Genesis (command&conquer mod) got a clear permission from EA. But it does not mean everyone else would have that too.

[jolly jewel]

yea definitely deep dive

[vast stump]

so it is possible to get a permission if you get lucky

but some IP owners are way more strict with that

[jolly jewel]

yea like Lou said the worst you risk a yes, what we already have is a no

[hot wolf]

The IP owners of studios like Bethesda are not going to give anyone permission to play their game in another game. That is anarchy.

[vast stump]

usually they do have to protect their product yeah

[rare sun]

Sooo ukr maps arnt banned because they’re ukr they’re just being removed cuz the mod makers have been banned?

[meager fractal]

correct

[rare sun]

Ahhh ok ok

[quick wigeon]

As far as I remember, Halo is completely fine as long as all assets are new and there is no monetization, from the Microsoft/Xbox GCUR.
(However, the GCUR license is revokable by Microsoft, so don't annoy Microsoft)

[quick wigeon]

Bethesda in particular is owned by Microsoft, but so far, unless otherwise confirmed by someone suitable in Microsoft, Zenimax, or Bethesda, does NOT fall under the Microsoft Studios GCUR

[hearty valve]

Does anyone know which major mods got banned today?

[old jay]

If your favorite mod is no longer present, it may have been banned.

To my knowledge, there is no running list of what has been banned on any particular day.

[zealous ore]

as always, the ones breaking the EULA and/or TOS.

[rugged prawn]

time to start a daily newsletter 🙂

[grim sand]

BI should have a weekly email blast of purged individuals.

[old jay]

Yep, name & shame

[meager fractal]

that would only advertise them, we rather go for "forget in history"

[autumn brook]

For bi products such as contact if you make something based on bi's ip so long as all content is made originally and used within the arma series is that kosher? (Not using contact name aswell)

[meager fractal]

I dare say yes, especially if it stays within the same IP (Contact = Arma, etc)

if in doubt, you can email [e-mail] but this should definitely be fine

[autumn brook]

im pretty sure it was allowed thanks lou.. now to Finish the mod

[celest sundial]

Workshop Licenses and IP FAQ

[hasty galleon]

#enf_showroom message
@errant drum I'm a little confused about your statement. Current conflicts are in bad taste. If that's how you interpret it, why would you play any war game?

[errant drum]

No I was saying that BI takes down the current stuff but allows us to go do any gwot theme or whatever else likes it any difference war is war

[hasty galleon]

You don't think there's a difference between current conflicts vs historical events? Even on the political side of things?

[abstract crest]

Also current conflict stuff is not automatically against BI's workshop rules

[hasty galleon]

Can't he ask BI why it was removed?

[errant drum]

We aren't here for politics we're here for military simulation which means we should be able to simulate any conflict war is gonna happen till the end of time it's inevitable it's been around since the stone age nothing's gonna change that so why handcuff us on a game over it

[errant drum]

It was removed for being named bahkmut if it was a fictional name it would be fine

[abstract crest]

It was not banned for being named Bahkmut

#general_chat_arma message'

[vast stump]

this is false

please dont spread around such false information

[errant drum]

I meant it was like a copy of the original bahkmut map so it got banned

[vast stump]

this is because the original mod is banned

and reuploading it is just ban evasion

and the original mod is banned

because the author broke rules

but nothing to do with the theme of the map

[errant drum]

Understood but from what was explained is that the original was banned for its likeness to the war i.e the Ukrainian symbols on Vic's and what not is what got all their mods banned is this not correct either

[vast stump]

no

#other_ip_topics message

[coral juniper]

Their bans had nothing to do with all of what you are saying.

[pliant oracle]

the disinformation really spread that bad huh?

[errant drum]

I mean when one of the more popular better mods goes down people start talking and some of it makes sense true or not ya know

[errant drum]

Ya I've learned that now goat explained it all

[vast stump]

unfortunately people make up a lot of stuff and then spread it

[granite shell]

Happens people will move onto the next big thing eventually

[pseudo spruce]

sorry for ask here, but afaik there is no RHS oficial discord

i want to do Toweables in my mod, and i saw that RHS towing has some functions to make it work.

its against the license copy that functions? i had some problems in the past with IP and dont want to mess it again

[pliant oracle]

calling RHS representative @rugged prawn^

[crimson garden]

Just call the rhs functions if rhs is loaded

Why would you need to copy the functions to make a compat

[pseudo spruce]

im doing it in that way, but load an 7gb mod for just a function... is quite an overkill lol

i can do my own function... but i want the compat with rhs

[rugged prawn]

As far as I know we don't have anything for Reforger on towing. Or do you mean Arma 3? The licensing is simple. You cannot take (copy pasta, rip whatever) part of the mods (for any arma's) and just stick it into your mod. You can however use RHS as dependency as long as you respect the conditions in the EULA. No further permission is required nor will it be given. In general we do not mind derivatives and do not pursue them, but you do accept the risk that we can enforce the ND part of our license at any time. So for instance if we do find that you copy pasted something or made a Wagner Group faction or something using our stuff we will DMCA it straight away.

[crimson garden]

Then make your own Towing stuff but use RHS's if it's loaded

[rugged prawn]

then you make a compatibility mod that derives from your original and from RHS

when people just use their mod, no rhs functionality

when people use your mod, rhs and the compat, they get extra

and then you get the best of both worlds, and leverage the fact that RHS is quite widely used

[crimson garden]

You don't need an extra mod, just use skipWhenMissingDependencies

[pseudo spruce]

yep im doing that atm

[pseudo spruce]

ok, ill do that, Thank you!

[tepid lion]

RHS has towing?

Neat

[rugged prawn]

in general if you do compatibility mod way, you can have more explicit and safe dependency, something that gives you a better overview about the link that exists between the mods

imho cleaner, but on the other hand more overhead to maintain, so you also have to weigh the pros and cons

[abstract crest]

I'd note that Sethduda's Advanced Towing mod also provides towing, works pretty well and is tiny

[hasty galleon]

Hold on, you mean to tell me that you were just an echo of someone else that could've lied to you?

[vast stump]

I think the matter has already concluded

we can just be happy the truth has been found

[zenith turret]

the author got all his mods banned because they were monetizing enfusion tools by making people mods for hundreds of dollars.

if you go to their discord they will deny it and say that its because of the ukrain stuff

#ip_rights_violations message

[torpid roost]

https://tenor.com/view/horse-dead-beating-gif-9285411

[mossy yarrow]

in the worst case you get a message saying mod marked as incompatible, this had happen to my evil modder me before i actually knew anything about ip etc

[inland sphinx]

Steam Workshop != Reforger Workshop

[mossy yarrow]

Just to not confuse you. I learned my lesson back then and i make legal mods now.

[mossy yarrow]

Question, if i tell someone via dm that he is not allowed to use my models in his screenshots to showcase with ripped stuff is this enough ?

[crimson garden]

Enough to do what?

[mossy yarrow]

To set a statement, so if he violates that i can take action

[jolly jewel]

I dont think so

[mossy yarrow]

aight

[zenith turret]

that language would have had to be in the license of your mod in order for it to be 'official'

[vagrant saffron]

in relation to recent discussion in #ip_rights_violations

tho a totally serious and genuine question: how an average modder is supposed to figure out a model is ripped? those comparison screenshots posted above tell me literally nothing. they're both T-90, so they obviously are visually identical. what are those obvious give aways?

referenced screenshots:

[meager fractal]

the mesh price, usually

[lavish basalt]

UV pattern is also one obvious way

Dirt patch, crease too

[vast stump]

Average modder can't know. I'd suppose. Then it's good idea to ask if a sold model seem legit or go with the safests route of making new model.

[vagrant saffron]

that's a similar conclusion to what I came up with, and it defeats the very purpose of buying any assets at all, sadly.

there's always a possibility months later someone will come up with "this is stolen from XY", because even if one consults with other artists, it's not possible that people have memorized every single model from every single game/author on the market.

[vast stump]

Indeed it is unfortunate problem in the industry.

Like Lou there said price is one of the first indicators.

Then whatever can be found of the artists online. If there isn't much anything that can be a red flag.

Buying models for mods is relatively new phenomenon in the modding scene.

[rich quarry]

@fading crypt wake up

sorry wrong one

@celest sundial i beleive you have cool head when people mentioning you

I also believe you know where to relay these

i always wanted to enlarge my pension

[old jay]

Use a legitimate model service that has been around for a long time. Also, ensure that you purchase the appropriate license. If you're unsure, do a reverse image search on the item you are interested in. This may provide a bit more insight into its origin.

[meager fractal]

fixeded, thanks

[rich quarry]

you bad person, i wanted my pension to be enlarged

https://tenor.com/bATYM.gif

[meager fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/willj-oprah-oprah-winfrey-winfrey-you-get-a-car-gif-3528056487492910923

[rich quarry]

god dam, will have to struggle to live with this smol 49.5 cm long magnum dong

qustn with arma license. any mod can NOT be used as a base for any other mod unless given perm from original creator(s)?

[warm magnet]

The more complex and detailed the model is, the more attention you need to make to the provenance of the creator, and recognise that certain categories (armoured vehicles or aircraft that exist in War Thunder/World of Tanks) are much more likely to be rips than other categories (personal weapons).

Once you've looked at enough of them, it's clear rips from certain games have a 'look' - e.g. the War Thunder vehicles have really low poly interiors

[vast stump]

Game readiness is also concerning factor. Buying high poly models is safer in that regard.

As convoluted as that is.

[jolly jewel]

also Fab is basically just new Sketchfab which was already known for selling rips more than not, Can happen on CGTRADER as well like LouisB did but i see it less on there

[mossy yarrow]

who sold the model ?

[indigo socket]

Cgtrader

[mossy yarrow]

yes but i mean who was the guy

if its rhyzkov its 100% custom

[indigo socket]

GeorgeLV 3d hes russian

[wild copper]

If a mod is licensed under APL-SA, but then says reuploading is not allowed in the same license file, I'm assuming that means you can't reupload it right? Or does it being licensed under APL-SA override that?

[wind beacon]

Not sure how it could be APL-SA if it is using a custom license

[wild copper]

The license file says it's licensed under APL-SA but then says beneath that reuploads to the WS are not allowed

[wind beacon]

Then why didn't they make it an APL license? :p

But yeah, probably a good question for BI here

[torpid roost]

Probably best to reach out to the mod creator in this case.

[flat herald]

Anyone want to help report some trolls ruining Offical servers + Full blown Hate Speech, Racism etc.

It's a Co-Ordi ated groupnof xbox users abusing the vote to kick system to then abuse people online in voice comms including;

Threats to kill
Racism/ threats against minorities
Harrasment
Bullying
Abuse.

I have tried getting xbox enforcement and Bohemia enforcement to no avail. Maybe just mass reporting + calling them out will help the situation.

Looking for a hand to help hold these people accountable as they actively flaunt how easy it is to avoid bans/ abuse systems and Has ruined the entire AP-SY offical server cluster !!

PM me for video evidence and recordings but Xbox Gmaer tags (atleast some of them)

Are;
The Frontovick
WarOnH0b0s
ape nRiggers
INCELTALIB8N
etc.

Group of 6+ Young American lads just ruining this game and abusing others.

[wind beacon]

This is why vanilla servers (same as official) that are community servers are the way to go IMHO.

[flat herald]

Limited by Ping only 1 community server that's good with low ping

[wind beacon]

What region are you?

[flat herald]

Aus/Nz. Only 1 good community servers ZSU not my thing highly modded and then only ever 1 fully populated server in our region for ping.

This group knows that and that's part the reason the keep targeting my groups official server.

Probably just Going to stop gamin tbh. Really great display from what unfortunately is a growing proportion of the human population and I ain't about it.

Xbox rep told outright told me they couldn't up hold their community standards in this instance. Even thought these guys are using gamer tags that are very clearly racist.

All faith lost in humanity.

[inland sphinx]

APL-SA doesn't give you enough rights to upload to steam workshop anyway. So it wouldn't matter.
Now if you fork that mod, make your own modifications to it (which APL allows you to), then upload it.. that's a good question.

[vagrant saffron]

does it apply to steam workshop only, or reforger workshop as well?

[inland sphinx]

Steam

[vagrant saffron]

sorry, rephrased the question

[inland sphinx]

Oh sorry I thought WS refers to steam.
It depends on which one is meant then

[vagrant saffron]

I'm not sure which one OP meant either, just wanted to clarify

[inland sphinx]

Steam has extra requirements that APL-SA license doesn't fulfill unless you are also the author or a contributor of the content.
Reforger workshop does not have these specific rules.

[vagrant saffron]

thanks, that makes sense

[inland sphinx]

I would expect the additional restriction of "no workshop uploads" to stick for Reforger too.
But I don't know if it actually would.

APL-SA restricts what license you can put the content under if you make your own variant of the mod. It forces you to keep the APL-SA terms, but I don't know if that'd force you to keep extra terms the author added ontop of it

[dark tulip]

I will just use a custom license, because APL doesn't protect enough... and people can just find loopholes anyway

[inland sphinx]

CUP-L is pretty nice

[abstract crest]

No downstream restrictions. You may not offer or impose any additional or different terms or conditions on, or apply any Effective Technological Measures to, the Licensed Material if doing so restricts exercise of the Licensed Rights by any recipient of the Licensed Material

[inland sphinx]

if doing so restricts exercise of the Licensed Rights by any recipient of the Licensed Material

Your right is to modify/reproduce/redistribute.
You can still do that, just not onto the workshop specifically

I guess it partially restricts? So might still count?

[abstract crest]

I assumed that's why RHS has pbos that are APL-SA and others that are RHS licensed

And no downstream restrictions means no partial ones either 😉

And yeah, CUP-L is very nice. Honestly imo no one should choose APL in any variant unless you are porting legacy samples

[rich quarry]

"you can play with our shit, but do not touch our shit. its our shit, we made it"

rhs actually DOES allow people touch their shit to some degree, you jsut have to ask properly and be credible, afaik

[zealous ore]

we use for RHS APL-SA is for things ported from A2 exclusively

[abstract crest]

Understood. But while the statement on RHS's Steam Workshop mod pages says: "Re-uploads of any RHS content (in part or in full) on Steam Workshop is PROHIBITED," it could be interpreted as just a restatement of Steam Workshop's EULA 6(d) clause. The question would then be can someone take any of the content in those pbos and port to Reforger and upload to BI's workshop?

[zealous ore]

i would assume that would be possible in theory in accordance to the APL-SA.
However, the pbos are binned (locked) and you cannot really reverse engineer stuff legally. Would be easier to grab stuff from the datapacks, especially since in reforger all the additional things we added on top of BI meshes (and we did some edits to both meshes and textures) cannot be ported forwards to reforger (all the custom FCS, mechanics, animations screens etc)

[abstract crest]

Ah yeah, forgot about the binarization bit 😉 Debinarizing would be a breach in itself iirc. Thanks for the extra info though 🙂

[zealous ore]

i always found that weird with APL-SA. Yes it can be modified, however no it cannot because that would mean reverse engineering process which is not allowed....

[abstract crest]

Yeah, those ripping don't care about the license in the first place. Look at the number of Taviana rips that Martin has to deal with in DZSA despite the fact that they have to debin and ignore the APL license that explicitely says "ARMA only*

[rich quarry]

just redo it from scratch lmao

[abstract crest]

No one ever does 😦

[rich quarry]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[zealous ore]

there is a reason i have over 1300 DMCAs/ takedowns for A3 alone

[abstract crest]

Presumably a few for DZSA too? Considering the license provision specifically forbidding DayZ use

[stray rover]

You can publish the source though. I have all my APL/APL-SA stuff on GitHub.

[zealous ore]

you can do that but you are not actually required

[stray rover]

Yeah, but again as you correctly pointed out, it would make it pointless to select these licenses then, except when you are forced due to including APL-SA material.

[verbal gust]

I would like to report serious violations on the ArmA 3 server "Gladius (SVO) - PVP", which require your immediate attention.

1. Prohibited Use of RHS Mods

According to the RHS Mods EULA (Section 4.3), it is strictly forbidden to use their content to depict or simulate the ongoing Russian-Ukrainian conflict. However, this server:

Actively uses RHSAFRF (Russian Armed Forces) in combat scenarios against RHSUSAF (Ukrainian/American forces).

Incorporates military equipment and insignia directly tied to the real-world conflict.

The server’s name ("SVO") explicitly references Russia’s so-called "special military operation," violating RHS Mods' terms.

2. Unauthorized Monetization of Content

The server engages in the commercial sale of in-game items, including:

"PMC Wagner" uniforms (likely derived from RHS assets).

Other paid equipment that may be based on RHS models.

Paywalled server features, exploiting free community mods for profit.

3. Additional Violations

   Use of real-world Ukrainian city maps (Chasiv Yar, Avdiivka) in combat simulations.

   Unauthorized commercial use of other mods (CBA_A3, CUP Terrains) without creator consent.

   Potential breaches of Steam Workshop Rules regarding real-world conflict depictions.

Requested Actions

Investigate the server for violations of the RHS Mods EULA.

Verify whether RHS content is being monetized without permission.

Take appropriate measures, including server suspension if violations are confirmed.

Review the legality of the "Gladius" mod (Steam Workshop: (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3345700237)).

I am prepared to provide additional evidence (screenshots, links, etc.) if required.

[rich quarry]

@zealous ore

[abstract crest]

Good report, but just one note that at least as far as I know there is no provision by Valve on real world conflict depictions and neither Chasiv Yar nor the Avdiivka maps limit what you can do on them\

[zealous ore]

it is on RHS EULA which is ND

[zealous ore]

thanks

[abstract crest]

I know, I was talking about 'Potential breaches of Steam Workshop Rules regarding real-world conflict depictions' which was listed separately from the RHS section

[zealous ore]

ahhh yeah seen ok

[zealous ore]

for monetization infringements for servers email bi directly

[verbal gust]

Thank you for your attention to my message. Please clarify:
What specific measures will be taken based on the information I have provided?

[zealous ore]

refresh that steam workshop page…

[verbal gust]

Oh, that was fast enough, thanks.

[verbal gust]

In case of a repeat violation, can I contact you at dm?

[indigo socket]

gaijin are investigating still

an he states my point if you go up close you see angler an pointed parts that are not in thge war thunder model

[vast stump]

ripped models often come with messed up sharp/smooth edges. Thats not really anykind of valid defence

and if he made the model why the hell didnt he make it properly with smooth edges instead

dont add up to put in so much effort to make such model and then mess up such basic stuff

[indigo socket]

if i was building the tank using it as ref i would make it diffrently on purpose, mabe thats what he did but lets wait for gaijin to decide

[inland sphinx]

Yeah I would also, but he didn't, which makes it obvious.

[indigo socket]

anyone can look at the photos you seen an say the same thing but untill you have both the meshes infront of you, i really wouldnt be making that decision

[zealous ore]

yes

[abstract crest]

BTW, apart from videos, do you have anything to do with the Ares Warfare mod or server?

[shut forge]

if you read it again it says that his model was made without angular parts and higher detail. you have it backwards. but still best to wait to see what gaijin says

[verbal gust]

Our community is split into Ares Wargame and Second of Silence. What's the question?

[abstract crest]

Why does the Ares Wargame server rip so many mods including Eden Enhanced, A3TI, NI Arms and VSM?

[verbal gust]

Does it copy and paste into the "Ares Core" mods of other authors?

[abstract crest]

The Modern Conflict mod on the server rips VSM and NIArms

The Ares Wargame mod includes hundreds of mods (some of which don't care) but also includes Eden Enhanced, A3TI and SigSound ArmA 3 which explicitely forbid repacks - unless they gave permission?

So the answer is yes, it does

[trim peak]

I can not wait for this to be proven so you can stop trying to justify a ripper. Future big red flag. If you see a model that took the author a month/s to create and he is selling it for penny’s then there is a 90% chance it’s a stolen asset.

[shut forge]

im here on the off chance that 10% is true. if it is ripped im not justifying it since i dont agree with ripping.

[indigo socket]

i completly agree rhs but its a diffrent mesh, might be identicle but its not the same even difrent shapes everywhere

[verbal gust]

Sorry, idk

[abstract crest]

You do now...

[fiery egret]

It's too bad he wasted the chance to take both screenshots of the tanks at the same angle, even though there was literally nothing preventing that and would make comparing both models easier

[indigo socket]

the moddler gave me those angled photos an it doesnt take an idiot too see the diffrences there

i was just enlarging what he sent me by getting the full pictures

[rugged prawn]

Dude it's the same model. Edited with own bits and bobs to exactly try to trow you off but ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY MAKES MODELS CAN TELL YOU IT IS RIPPED.

[indigo socket]

well its only you guys in here thats telling me that..

[abstract crest]

You mean people who make models?

[rugged prawn]

dude you are being misled by the seller. He takes models, slightly modifies them, remodels some retouches some. This is a technique to minimize effort and maximize profit. He then sells this for money, a lot. Because of course they look very game studio quality. Because they are. He has complete vested interested in lying to you.

What vested interest do me and Bohmia have to lie to you?

[abstract crest]

It's all an RHS conspiracy /s 😜

[rugged prawn]

of course, except somehow RHS doesn't say anything about all the other legit bought and made models on workshop, and neither does Bohemia

/s

i mean what else do you need

dont look at the differences, look at the similarities

[cyan geyser]

Listen man, I’ve defended you because I don’t think anyone should be calling people out instead of reporting but as a modeler. This model was ripped by that guy and edited. I am sorry this happened to you, I would advise using a credit card for all purchases in the future so you can do a charge back.

I completely support the “innocent until proven guilty” and think you should let the company decide but, I honestly think it’s gonna come out to be ripped and edited. I have no reason to go against you in this matter as I am a third party’s but I think you should really begin looking at getting money back however possible.

The RHS guys aren’t trying to personally attack you. I understand this started out more personally due to the original person bringing up the issue not doing it in a mature manner but you have been scammed by the seller.

They are the most experienced devs the community has to offer by a long shot

[rugged prawn]

the most compelling evidence is not even rhs devs, Dedmen is a BI dev who is not part of RHS

[indigo socket]

i complety agree, an if gaijin tell me its theirs il take it down, but the people that have been looking into it dont show me no evidnec its ripped an going only off what i show them, it doesnt make sence to me

[vast stump]

Dedmen showed you pictures

[indigo socket]

if i was to report someone or say a models ripped id actrully go into them an take a look if i could

he showed me the photos pufu took witch he didnt show no details an took a photo of 3 tanks from far away

an even in that phot theres noticable diffrences

you guys clearly dont know what your talking about,

[vast stump]

#ip_rights_violations message

I think you missed the pictures

[indigo socket]

dude its clear its made of same model that photo is no real evidence

[vast stump]

ok so WHAT kind of evidence you accept?

[indigo socket]

im not trying to defend the ripper if he is but i need evidence before i agree with anyone on here

[vast stump]

you are

[wraith nebula]

Some of these guys been doing this for many years, they are not attacking you they are helping you, if and when you publish this mod and BI reviews it (you now have drawn a lot of attention to it) and it is ripped as said by BI staff, you will get a takdown/official warning from BI and you mod gets taken down, if and when you repost such a asset again it will result in a permanent ban from uploading mods to the workshop, is this a risk you want to take, even if Dedmen himself and many other big modders are warning you?

[vast stump]

its already published

he opts to believe the only guy who gains from this

[wraith nebula]

Well i guess it will be on the big stack with reports now and will be reviewed and taken down soon by BI 🤷‍♂️

[smoky oriole]

A fool and his money are easily parted

[indigo socket]

i would get bann i f i said that

[vast stump]

youve gotten away of similar remarks already

but also @smoky oriole dont

[smoky oriole]

Sorrie, but its too funny

[indigo socket]

did you mute him

[vast stump]

its not entertainment

[indigo socket]

clearly not an hes actrully pointed that at me

i dont think its funny or fair for this to happen on here, i think you guys should respect that, as i have put alot of time an effort into this mod, an im not taking it down so easily, untill BI does something about it, it shouldnt be discussed no more

[vast stump]

yes we can see that you are not believing anything anyone else says.
Can you list what kind of evidence you would believe? Apart from Gaijin throwing DMCA at you or the "maker" confessing

[indigo socket]

noone showed me anything apart from dedman an pufu, witch i dont see what they see

[inland sphinx]

All I see in this channel all day today is "lalalalala I cannot hear you lalalalala"
Clearly any attempt at discussion here is a waste of time, as I said yesterday.
I suggest everyone save their free time for something better, and have a chuckle when the mod gets taken down in the end.

[hardy bone]

Can't someone make a superposition with the matching parts of the same colour and the others another colour?

[indigo socket]

im sure making a tank using WT as ref is not iligel an it looks like thats what he did more then what any of you are saying, that is all i been saying, an iv already stated if BI or Gajin dont like it its getting taken down, im not intentionly putting a ripped asset if in my defece have proof its diffrent an the modler saying the same thing

they defo been trying 1000%

but it wont work

[vast stump]

ok want to send the model over? I found the WT tank to download. I cant put them over each other

[indigo socket]

pufu has my mesh he can do it he has all the evidence, but funny enouth hes making a t90 so he proberly wont proove it for me

can you not see whats happning here hes been the most quiet one an he has the evidence

[vast stump]

he has life other than this channel

I got few minutes to spare now

come one

[meager fractal]

@indigo socket can you not see: many respected long-time modders tell you the models match almost 100% with only minor differences, and you decide to force it forward until you get potentially banned from the Workshop.
it's OK if you don't believe them (and they didn't have to), now don't complain if you get warned/removed from the Workshop

you won't change your mind even with evidence, you won't change their mind with arguing, that's it, end of the topic and time will tell 🤷‍♂️

[rugged prawn]

Illegal? No but it is against the license of WT, and against license of cgtrader as you agree to have full right to your contribution. And then against license of arma workshop for you as you also agree that you have full rights to it. But since the original was ripped against the terms and agreements, so is everything else downstream. It's like buying a stolen car, just because buying a car is not illegal doesn't mean you get to keep it if the seller stole it.

[abstract crest]

I believe Lou was trying to get the discussion ended for this evening at least

[rugged prawn]

👍🏻

Just trying to explain fruit of the poisoned tree

[wind beacon]

No doubt. I keep seeing constant pings on this discussion which is the biggest round-in-circles conversations I've seen in a long time.

[abstract crest]

Yeah, but he probably wanted to get a baguette and smelly cheese and a glass of nice red wine or something 😛

[wraith nebula]

And we end this now as told by Lou a few messages up 👍 before we get a new wave of messages leading to no result as Lou and Dedmen said.

[verbal gust]

Second of Silence my server if you meant it

[abstract crest]

No Ares Warfare server has those mods. Don't know what mods the SoS one has

Yet...

[patent wing]

me as an actual owner of Second of Silence (previous ares wargame (idk why you call it ares warfare), we were just players of ares wargame and our community existed till 2022, now we have 2 independent servers (Ares Wargame and Second Of Silence(community is devided in 2 groups for 3 years already), but we are not a part of nowadays ares wargame and dont care about their mods, collections and life, u better dm the creator of the modern conflict mod (funnycoockieever) and ask him

[abstract crest]

I have reported the mods already to the people who've been ripped

[old jay]

Lou drinks British lager as well, he is a man of culture. Also, he doesn't smell of baguette or cheese.

https://tenor.com/view/hugh-laurie-huh-what-confused-gif-5289537

[abstract crest]

I call it Ares Wargame because KpeaT's videos were about it and it contains ripped mods.

[patent wing]

yyeah, our previos community was so, and as a greatest part, we have all rights to post videos from the past, cause the theme and idea is the same, but oups, so sorry Ares aka funnycoockieever, those dudes just shitted on you due to violations, probably our bad

[vast stump]

For transparencys sake I share my findings here too.

Its definitely made on top of the WT model but remade seemingly for the most part. Nearly all details do align the same way but are not scaled or positioned exactly same. Cables bend same way and are tied together same way, the bullets in the MG belt point at same directions (again not 100% identical but little bit off). Some bolts/nuts align same way on same parts even if they are few mm in different positions. Many parts share same exact width even if their rounded edges have been treated with extra segments. Many mechanical parts like are angled same, like the main gun pointing slightly down at same angle.

The most shared shape is the top MG which at right scale shares 1:1 angles and dimensions of the main body of the gun as well as couple other parts. Nearly all round edges do have extra segments added for more roundness. but the parts that are 1:1 shaped feel too uncanny to be exact same.

I've shared my findings with bigturd with pictures included. He was not convinced though. And sure, maybe its not a rip as there are remade parts in there, but Im convinced its a remade copy of the WT model.

[zealous ore]

i already made that t90 years ago (not finished) and i have no intention of having it in reforger anyways.

[zealous ore]

i said what i had to say. nothing more to add to it

[indigo socket]

why didint you point out all the diffrences instead of just sending a photo far away an telling me to remove my mod. i sent it to you to get these details that goat now has done

i wouldnt still be here trying to prove my point if you didnt do me like that

[tepid lion]

There is no longer a defence for this it’s already 200% confirmed now…

It’s taken 20 people to say it.

Sometimes it sucks there are a lot of rippers and scammers on CG trader it happens

But you can’t be this defensive over it I understand your workbench work yes it’s frustrating having this told to you

But you need to understand everything that’s been laid out it only makes it worse protecting what is known to be true

[zealous ore]

because differences doesn’t matter in this case, but the similarities/ things that are exactly the same.

[abstract crest]

Why are you still commenting to keep this drama going? You seem to do that a lot. Both Lou and Melle have said end it, PuFu is responding you do not have to

[tepid lion]

Because you don’t control my free will

I’m also directly involved with the situation on reaching out to gaijin and in communication with them

[abstract crest]

And Lou and Melle (mods here) told everyone but mods to shut up

[tepid lion]

I don’t see anywhere being told to “shut up” ?

[zealous ore]

i think from an IP rights pov, the model is the same so you cannot share right on it and sell it. even if there are certain small modifications i wouldn’t call it original model. and if we would be talking about something like a gun, well maybe it is possible if both are based in real world measurements.

but this isn’t, and there are so many variations of this tank version. that is 100% impossible to have things match at these degree of accuracy
I don’t have the time or the will to check each individual part on its own. I have more than enough experience in the 3d world to tell when things are ripped and modified to hide the ripped parts.

As i previously said, if i would be you i would removed it. If it would be up to me (and that might happen to be) i would have that mod removed from the workshop. Not have you banned or anything drastically, just removal of the mentioned mesh

[abstract crest]

#other_ip_topics message #other_ip_topics message

[tepid lion]

Also read what warden said

[zealous ore]

@tepid lion + @abstract crest can you please cool down. thanks

[abstract crest]

I did, he said that that topic was allowed in this channel - which was a question Lou raised. Nothing to do with the mods wanting to ensure we don't have to come back to 200+ messages in the morning. That said, I don't want to contribute anymore to that - but you've demonstrated many times in the past in this discord that you do. Done now

[abstract crest]

Copy

[tepid lion]

Its fine Grahame

[mossy yarrow]

What about if you model your model completely from scratch but take the other model as reference and just as reference ?

[zealous ore]

define using another model as reference

[mossy yarrow]

For the shapes for example

[zealous ore]

what would be the process?

[mossy yarrow]

Well modeling my model on top of the reference

[indigo socket]

dont do perfect or it will be seen as ripped

take a look at my situation further up an you will see what can happen

[mossy yarrow]

Well, it will be seen as ripped okay even tho its not ripped

[indigo socket]

exaclty only bi will investigate it best to just email them

just make noticable diffrences on each peice you make

[mossy yarrow]

Yeah but my point was it is not illegal to model something on top of it no ?

[indigo socket]

it can be if your using a ripped asset for a ref aprently from what these guys where saying to me

i dont see how it is tho theres alot of loop holes in it

[mossy yarrow]

So its illegal to take a picture of the reference model and model it after that ? That is crazy

[indigo socket]

no its iliegal to use a ripped asset as in the model for refrence not a image you find

[mossy yarrow]

I see

[indigo socket]

if your using photos you will be fine theres no wey you can get it close enouth to the real thing wihtout a model there

[vast stump]

it would be copy of the someone elses model

[mossy yarrow]

Even tho i would use a screenshot ?

[vast stump]

the problem arises from copying details that exist only on that model

[inland sphinx]

When you make a model yourself it will always be different enough to see that its not ripped.
Like in that bigturd example when things exactly line up. Such a thing only happens if you take a model and try to edit it, instead of making your own.

[mossy yarrow]

thanks for the explanation

[inland sphinx]

Ignore the stuff bigturd says, he still refuses to accept he had a ripped model, and not "a model made with a reference"
But still, ripping models to be able to use them as a reference is still not okey. But you could of course make a ton of screenshots from the game yourself

[vast stump]

but also one can just use real life reference pictures

[indigo socket]

who said i was still refusing it i was arguing my point you got it very wrong

[desert knoll]

how do i remove a mod from the workshop i need taken down ive lost access too?

can someone please assist

[inland sphinx]

How did you loose access to it?

[desert knoll]

cannot locate dependecies to open this project

in which i dont know how to add them back

now that i accidentally removed them in options menu of project

[inland sphinx]

You can edit your gproj file in text editor, and take out the dependencies. Then you can open it again

[desert knoll]

i did that now its saying cant iniliaze engine?

[inland sphinx]

uff probably because script errors

other alternative, create a new empty project, edit its gproj, and put your old projects GUID into the new one
All that matters for the workshop access is the GUID in there

[desert knoll]

lol got it

i removed the dependices section in the gprof and had to add them instead lol

[mossy yarrow]

Alright thanks Dedmen

[cyan geyser]

Hello!

In the future we would like to accept pure donations, some with the goal of purchasing a specific, licensed 3D model or asset (kind of like crowd funding). I understand we cannot take donations to do the AR-Tools work, whatsoever.

However if the price matches exact to the purchase cost of the asset is this considered proper usage of donations?

We have an agreement clause that I’ve written up, who would a good POC be to have review this?

We just want to do everything above board and ensure we are in good standing with BI. We plan to have a large, long term project so obtaining assets will be needed but will self fund if this causes conflicts with BI.

Thanks!

[dark tulip]

You are allowed to receive donations, as long as you don't give anything (Arma related) in return.

So if someone donates a model, or enough money for a model, and you release that to everyone (and not only donators), it's completely fine.

Just something to keep in mind is that bought models may have other issues (like being ripped, incorrect licenses, etc). So I would suggest to only accept money and buy the models yourself

[inland sphinx]

"I understand we cannot take donations to do the AR-Tools work"
It seems you do not understand.
A donation is a donation and would be totally fine.
Payment for a service (like to you to make a model available) is a sale, not a donation.
Donations are fine.

There are way way way too many people calling sales a "donation with something in return", that's not a thing.

You can just make a Patreon for people to donate you.
But you cannot put anything AR behind a paywall. No exclusive mod access, preview images of in-game content. But you can show modelling in blender, or texturing in other tools before it goes to workbench.
You can make preview images of the mod publicly accessible, while not paywalled, also on Patreon.

[vast stump]

Donating a model is not a thing I think. One buys a model with a license to oneself. Not to be shared with others

[pseudo spruce]

not trying to find a loophole, but you can ask for donations to make a vehicle?
i mean "i want to introduce x vehicle in the game, if i reach $50 in donations i buy this model and integrate it to the game"

[vast stump]

I think that may cross over to sort of crowd funding pay to get something in return

[cyan geyser]

From what I’ve just read you can set the goal for the price of the asset. Integrating it into the game cannot have any donation value associated

[pseudo spruce]

nice, i had some problems with IP in the past, so i prefer to ask before doing something stupid again

[cyan geyser]

So my understanding is correct. We can take donations to fund something from the Fab store but cannot take any money for AR tools work?

I believe that is what I had said, no ?

IE: model of penguin is 20$,

Hello community we want to buy this penguin! It cost 20$

[inland sphinx]

If you take money, in order to create something and give it back. Its not a donation. Its a paid service

[meager fractal]

I believe the matter is all about the donations term 😉

[cyan geyser]

So we cannot set any objectives for donations

[coral juniper]

Asking for money to either directly or indirectly make a mod in Arma Reforger is not currently allowed.

As simple as that.

[cyan geyser]

We cannot say; we would like to buy X asset for 30.00, and allow people to contribute

[inland sphinx]

You can say "Donate money to support us"
You cannot say "We'll make thing for you if you donate us money"

Usage of Reforger tools, cannot be dependant on someone paying you for it

[cyan geyser]

Okay donate money to support us:

We would spend it on X, Y and Z is fine?

This is a list of things we intend to purchase for the project in the future

That way nobody can say they funded one thing etc…

[coral juniper]

It's indirectly tied

[cyan geyser]

I just want to be transparent with donations

[inland sphinx]

"We are working on XYZ. If you want to support us you can donate money, but you don't have to and we'll make XYZ anyway"
vs
"If you pay us money, we'll spend it to make XYZ"

[coral juniper]

Donations should be to donate without expecting anything back. Like "Like my work, then donate to make me happier"

[cyan geyser]

Okay this is reasonable.

This is what we had drafted

Because we will make it anyways

Like we aren’t asking for the money to make it, just the asset purchase to cover overhead. And the ability to be transparent about it

[coral juniper]

Anyway, if we feel there is any loophole being exploited, or the donations are not proper with the intentions we can decide to take administrative action

So, better to be straightforward with your donators and public

[cyan geyser]

Yeah that’s why I’m trying to stay on the safe side

My goal is to inform people where their money will go and be in good standing with BI.

I have no intent on taking a penny for AR work. Just buying assets that are already on our road map

If the safest thing to do is say “donate to support the project” and leave out the transparency piece, I can do that also.

[inland sphinx]

What I would do is to just do things. And add a "You can support me on Patreon" with link to page below.
No guarantees that anything good will be done with the money, no early previews or patreon perks.

"You can donate to help us purchase 3D models" would also be fine. That's not relating to reforger tools, you are not saying that you will use the money to make a mod.

[celest sundial]

You can absolutely pool together money to purchase something for the community, but it must be available to any member at the same time, even those who did not participate - or else it is a purchase. And if said thing is part of our game and or its import process touches our tools we do not allow any commerial use. E.g. at least right now you can not collect 500€ buy a model online and collect another 100€ to pay some modder to import it. You can obtain the model from donations madde to your community and import it yourself. The collection of money to buy a model is entirely detached from any use of our game or tools.

[coral juniper]

You can't for example, limit work on a mod explicitly under a budget being reached in Patreon or whatever.

Gathering donations for buying a 3D model has nothing to do with us

Using the tools for importing that model, and making it part of the expectation of the donation makes it an issue

Tying the mod to that model, or donation makes it an issue.

etc etc

[cyan geyser]

Okay so this general disclaimer covers it.

Donations to this server will be used to fund assets such as 3D Models, Outsourcing of work within 3D tools, not to include any Arma Reforger tools or BI product.

We have 3D models we would like to obtain and have identified them below. However if you choose to donate this does not ensure any one 3D model will be imported and be available on the server.

No donation will allow you to specifically influence the roadmap and level of priority for said asset. The donation is simply to help add the asset to our arsenal and contribute to the studio.

Any and all donations are in-kind donations and you will not receive benefits for making donations

I just wrote that on the toilet but I think that meets all of your intent.

[fiery egret]

I was curious about the following so I decided to finally ask:
Back in ~2017 we had a server with a modset that contained a dozen of mods and also had a patreon set up to support that server.
We were giving the "donator" role on discord to people who were donating. That seemed to be fine with everybody.
Then we decided that, as a token of gratitude, we'd create a separate Discord channel to donators, so that they'd feel more cozy.
Please note that this had absolutely no impact on anything happening in-game nor on the mod development. Literally the only thing that you'd get was a role that had an additional channel enabled.

Then one of the mod owners started complaining that we're giving people rewards in exchange for money and that it's totally not allowed and we have drop the idea of giving donators access to a Discord channel (that is on a service completely unrelated to the game itself).

We were of the opinion that that was absurd, but didn't feel like picking a war over something so trivial so we dropped the idea (as requested). However, I'm still wondering if they were correct in prohibiting us from doing that.

[inland sphinx]

Donator perks on discord, are not part of the game.
That might count as commerical use of Discord, I don't know what their rules are on that.
But as far as Game EULA is concerned, its irrelevant

[solid basin]

back in a2 there was server that would have reserved slots for those who had paid/donated. i wonder if thats ok?

[vast stump]

In Arma3 you can register server (not mods) for monetization and there are some rules related to that.

In Reforger no.

[solid basin]

ic thx

[vast stump]

BI homepage should have page about that.

[abstract crest]

Donator badges are not treated as a paid service, more an acknowledgement of your donation. As an example, if you donate for Godot's continued development you can get a donator badge and role...

Having a channel access attached may be different

[abstract crest]

Also, server monetization is forbidden in ARMA 2...

It happened ofc, but that was before there were monetization rules, which were added in 2015 during the Life Crisis

[verbal gust]

Can anyone tell me how long it takes for Bohemia to respond to emails about monetization?

[abstract crest]

https://www.bohemia.net/monetization

[mossy yarrow]

buy new models with your own money instead

[tepid lion]

can we ever see commercialization down the road such as contracting someone to make a mod for the public? @celest sundial

Or will that forever be a no bueno

That’s really what drives the modding community down is people can’t make money.

Personally I do what I do for the community I enjoy the reactions to some of the crazy stuff I can cook up so idc. im not even running in MANW for the prize money I want the shirt lol But for others it may seem like so much time for nothing.

[abstract crest]

If modding is monetized then the rules for server monetization will have to be changed too

[tepid lion]

Dayz is the prime example of what happens when the chains get removed it’s kinda a mess

[abstract crest]

Yep, for both modding and server monetization (and all the bad things that come with that, IP theft, DDOS attacks, etc.)

[tepid lion]

There’s pros and cons but it needs to be done in a strict compliant manner

Under terms it can’t be like GMOD

[normal pond]

afaik they did say few times mod monetisation is coming, or very implied it at least

[abstract crest]

Gonna be such a shit show...

And, I still maintain that that implies wider server monetization

[icy linden]

Reforger aleady has all of those "bad things"

[abstract crest]

Ugh... well, on the plus side, it could get worse 😉

[cyan geyser]

It’s not nearly as toxic as A3 was though

IP theft and DDOS was super common 🤣

I haven’t heard of any massive scandals on reforger yet.

[icy linden]

Last time there was no ddos attacks on my infrastructure within 24 hours was when BI was being ddosed

[normal pond]

time to get 10 servers and use them as reverse proxy to the real game server

dunno if that would work

[vast stump]

Money has not brought much anything positive into the modding scene.

[tepid lion]

BI A3 Prize contest winner moment

it helps fund studios and development. moddels hardware, etc

it has the potential to help people. people just abuse it

[abstract crest]

An annual MANW contest would not be a bad idea if done well

[tepid lion]

It’s great when organized like it’s cool to do these things but with how the workshop is set up now I think Bi does have the potential to grant us the ability of

Because it’s monitored.

Steam was a different area

Very unhealthy

[stiff ruin]

Where you say "preview images of in-game content", if a player subscribes to a website that lets them have an early sneak-peak of something that is going to be released for the rest of the playerbase, would that go against that? It's technically something outside of Arma and gives the subscriber no ingame advantages.

[hardy bone]

If you used the game or it's tools to make said preview, yes you're going against the EULA.
If you do a render with blender (and thus do not use a game/tool screenshot) it would be ok, since it's outside of the scope of arma

[celest sundial]

As I said on here before, our goal is the offer a legal path for comission work, but it will take some time. First step is bringing back some rules for servers similar to DayZ / Arma 3

[dark tulip]

I'm sure if serious modders (who make everything from scratch) would be the majority, than I'm sure BI would have no issues with making "commercial" work allowed.
However nowadays everyone thinks they can earn a couple of bucks with ripped assets and breaking more laws worldwide than I can do in a lifetime... And this is why the rules are so strict right now.

What happened to the times where people just created mods because they were passionate about the game instead of thinking they can get rich easy? 🤷

[inland sphinx]

You are using the tools/game (which you create the screenshot with) to produce a product that you use for commercial purposes.
Yes the end result is outside Arma, but you used Arma to create it.

[stiff ruin]

Got it thank you for the clarification on that

[smoky oriole]

The path of least resistance.

People also rip and steal and sell stuff because they can get away with it.

The legal framework is way behind in the era of digitalization.

If I could send a ripper to jail, or chop his hands off then there would be way fewer of them

[rugged prawn]

RHS was there for 10 years before the MANW contest and for 10 years after. It was nice to win something but in the grand scheme of things, if money was a motivator for a hobby like this we would have stopped long ago.

[tepid lion]

That’s fair. But I will say the prize money probably did go a long way for you guys I mean look at what you guys are doing now the quality is amazing.

And it’s rewarding to say the least

[indigo socket]

thansk for all that was hell bent on it being a war thunder model

incase anyone didnt know they made the t90a from war thumder

[inland sphinx]

What is this supposed to tell us?
The guys that make models for Unreal Engine 5, did not make that model that you're being told is ripped from war thunder?
Okey so what?

[indigo socket]

it tells me quite a bit that the profesiols even say its not a war thunder model

[inland sphinx]

They have a black t90a https://www.artstation.com/artwork/8BoAwn for UE5.
Which also doesn't look like the war thunder one.

They didn't say the model from Georg guy is not from War Thunder, they said its not theirs.

[indigo socket]

look at it again

[inland sphinx]

I already read it twice.

[lethal grove]

“this is not our model”

[indigo socket]

thanks for agreeing with me but these guys wont get it

[inland sphinx]

And yeah, everyone can see they are different.
War thunder (note the smoke launcher under that round part)
Georg (Note the smoke launcher again)
Evolve Studio.

Evolve Studio's model is CLEARLY not the same as the War thunder one.
But the one from Georg looks very much like the War thunder one.

[indigo socket]

dude iv had the guy who made it look at it over night an you still wont believe it

[fiery egret]

I think you misread what they've written. They've basically ignored your request to check if the model is from warthunder and instead they just limited themselves to state: "it's not ours"

[inland sphinx]

Where did you get that "Evolve Studio" (Guys that make UE5 content), made the tank for Gaijin?

You say that is the case, any proof to back up your claim?
Looking at their Artstation, that clearly is not the case.

[fiery egret]

That doesn't mean that thay have trouble figuring it out. That probably means that as long as it's not theirs they don't care about checking things for you, sadly

[indigo socket]

an he states its not our tank, an i i told him war thunder model he wont be comparing to a ue5 tank

[inland sphinx]

Why would he compare someone elses model, against someone elses model?
He didn't.
Its not theirs, so they don't care

[indigo socket]

ok so you dont believe it, no problem

[inland sphinx]

The only one who doesn't get it is you. For almost a week now.

[rugged prawn]

"we compared it to a completely other random model and yes indeed its not the same"

well done

should compare it to some Abrams models while they are at it

[covert bear]

tenk = tenk

[icy linden]

This is the best IP discussion of All Time

Top 10 Anime Battles

[mossy yarrow]

Don't you guys have a patreon ?

[rugged prawn]

We do and we get net negative 100 euros per month once you factor in all to server costs thank you very much

[mossy yarrow]

I see, didnt knew you have your own servers to maintain

[rugged prawn]

Yes of course, to support our development environments and websites

[jolly jewel]

Would be nice, same for like possible paid whitelist spots to offset server bills

[vagrant saffron]

are you guys paying for entire atlassian suite with dozens of users? static website hosting is free, .org domain is $20 per year, where does it go? or are you hosting your own arma servers?

[rugged prawn]

this is really out of the scope of this channel but if you must know: 2x dedi servers to host anything we need to develop and self-host tools to support us + for running play tests as well

[rapid mauve]

Can feel that, got a game & test server too + domain & homepage / webspace for my devteam

[tranquil sundial]

anyone know anyone about modding for commsions? for reforger?

[meager fractal]

yes

[tranquil sundial]

would you perpahs be able to put me incontact with them?

[meager fractal]

I mean, what do you want to know, that's the question

[tranquil sundial]

well it was mostly if they would be willing to either take a commission for the pave low helicopter to be modded in 3d model is rigged ad textured already and if it need to be modified ect the person im working with has went to college for 3+ years on a gaming design course and if they dont would like to know if they would be willing to teach me how to do it myself as videos are nearly impossible for me to understand (I may be a dumbass)

This would be the heli

[meager fractal]

unfortunately, using Arma Tools (Workbench, etc) for money is forbidden
you can buy a 3D model, but you have to assemble and rig it yourself

[tranquil sundial]

ahh that all good

the model is already made and rigged

[meager fractal]

then what do you need someone for… just edit the 3D model?

if it's "to set it up as a mod" someone can do it, but for free
paid can get the mod removed from the Workshop (and eventually the uploader banned)

[tranquil sundial]

yea i see

dose seem a bit

counter productive though

with such a modding community

people who are commsioned to make a mod for the game i mean

but eh

i dont own the games ip

[meager fractal]

it is how it is
modding is not meant to be a money-making thing, and it helps prevent abuse and thieves/liars too

[tranquil sundial]

the thieving i understand abuse and money making i dont really understand though

not sure how someone can abuse it

but making a mod for money = to mostly time spent seems fair but i can see how it makes a some what of a sense

[vast stump]

scams.

money has not brought anything good into modding. All the popular big mods you see are pretty much passion projects

thats what really makes mods.

[unreal egret]

That's a crazy statement. Wasn't the original idea of DayZ a passion project then Bohemia funded it with "money" to make it real game?

Same with FiveM

[abstract crest]

Dean was working for BI when he did DayZ Mod...

Though DayZ Mod was not his job, he was working on ARMA 3 iirc

[unreal egret]

Setting aside the intricacies, many modding "passion projects" have been elevated and sustained by funding. Sure there are bad apples but you cant say money has never positively impacted modding

[wild copper]

Or has it just not been given the chance to because it's against TOS?

If you make something against the rules, the only people that engage with it are going to be rulebreakers

If there was a legitimate, ethical way to engage in comissions rather than an outright ban, you'd probably get some great content

[wild copper]

And id argue that cDLCs are evidence of this fact

[zealous ore]

cdlc is a vetted process, there is oversight and curated

[wild copper]

Could commissions not be done in a similar way?

[lavish basalt]

tldr: Practically "paid Mods" and CDLCs are so different in multiple ways

[zealous ore]

nope. because BI cannot be involved in commercial endeavors between individual parties

[zealous ore]

oh but i can.

[vast stump]

Yes I can say that. It's not really regulated and it has brought attention of shady actors onto the scene.
Having seen how many scammers succeed and how many are banned constantly, the possible small good things are completely negated by the bad things.

Cdlc is a regulated commercial project and I keep that separated from modding.

And sure I would probably try commission mod making myself It it was possible. But I don't believe people advocating it completely understand how it would really even pay out if you do it properly as business paying VAT and taxes.
Handling customer service and supporting your paid product through game updates or suffer refunds down the line.

Would people actually be willing to pay the real hourly wages or would they be looking to exploit makers.

[rugged prawn]

imho there are too main concerns:

1. There will be an absolute flood of the "bad apples" where people would try to resell ripped and ip violating content "legitimately" trying to make a quick buck. It will be a nightmare of giga proportions to moderate and handle IP violation far worse than it already is.

2. It can seriously impair the "free" mod scene in several ways: 1. all of a sudden everyone expects to get paid to get anything done. No funding = no progress would be quite terrible for advancement of normal mods and therefore the game itself. 2. Somehow the steering of the direction of type of mods will now be out of modder hands and now in funder hands, especially the ones that are paying, not reflecting what the general community wants, not reflecting what the modder wants, but truly focusing on what the people with the funding want.
3. I would expect the overall quality also to fall off, as things turn from passion projects to maximizing profits. Things would have zero commitment to maintenance once the money has been paid, no innovation, no improvement, no updating when game gets patched etc.

[icy linden]

We already have slop mods, we don't need more

[abstract crest]

And don't forget, if BI allow modders to monetize their products then they will have to seriously weaken server monetization rules, after all, they have just inflicted those costs onto servers as well

[rugged prawn]

how are these costs transferred to servers?

this illustrates part of my point, everyone will come for their piece of the pie

[abstract crest]

If modders can monetize and popular mods decide to charge then these costs are transfered to server owners who are themselves competing against one another...

As an example, say RHS Status Quo decided to monetize (pure hypothetical here, please don't bring PuFu's wrath on me 😛 ). Well lots of people want to play on servers with it, so now to run a server that more people like, you have to now pay that fee as well as more mundane server costs

[unreal egret]

Fraud exists in every business, yet we don’t say “business is always bad.” Tons of people pay taxes, follow laws, and operate ethically. The existence of scammers doesn’t cancel out the real, positive impact of legit efforts. Modding’s no different.

[dark tulip]

So do you mean that a mod can ask payments? Because that means less people will have the mod, and less servers will have the mod, and therefor gets played less...

Or do you mean that servers are allowed to ask payments when that mod is used? Because that maybe means more servers, but the modders are still broke in the end as they will never see any money from it...

[abstract crest]

How about BI forget this stupid idea... ARMA 3 does fine with no monetization and, as I have mentioned before, in the dim days of 2015 when there were no rules the modding community almost quit en masse. In fact, that year we lost so many great modders who quit the game completely due to the excesses of monetization

[rugged prawn]

yeah in a world of regulations and real consequences like prison

[abstract crest]

And that crisis is the reason that we have the server monetization rules in the first place, they were not a thing until that point

[cyan geyser]

Rules for theee but not for me

[abstract crest]

And also the reason that both CUP and RHS forbid their use on monetized servers by default

[unreal egret]

Ya were in the real world too , i think. If you dont pay taxes , scam or exploit labour. The arguments HorribleGoat brought up. You can go to prision.

[rugged prawn]

obviously. There is no oversight, no reporting, no nothing. If a server costs 100Eur to run a month but pull in 1000Eur per month in monetization running free mods. Why on earth would we allow that

[rugged prawn]

who goes to prison if they rip my model and resell it?

i think them not paying taxes is the least of my worries

[unreal egret]

Ok lets say "face charges", instead of prision. If you really care you can press charges in a real court of law

[rugged prawn]

then i might as well become a lawyer and make a living that way, because i will not have time for modding ever again

PuFu has personnally filed over a 1000 DMCA takedowns over the years

what im trying to say is that if there is no proper framework, it will never work

[dark tulip]

Problem is that you can't provide losses for a free product, and license infringements are terrible to fight over (especially when in different countries with different laws).

[cyan geyser]

Okay then put a framework in place?

[rugged prawn]

not me, Bohemia, and the problem is how. Its a tough legal job to figure it out

[cyan geyser]

Yeah I was just saying generally that is the solution lol

[rugged prawn]

a resource job also, because whatever the reporting IP infringement system load is now, it will 10x

[cyan geyser]

Yeah, I however don’t think it’s fair to say it’s a net negative.

It’s most likely what has kept new players engaging with A3. If you think the people behind these warhammer and Halo mods etc for A3 aren’t exchanging money, I believe you’d be wrong.

[rugged prawn]

i dont argue there. a black market is there in both A3 and AR

[cyan geyser]

With the correct framework in place, even after the end of the traditional life cycle for AR or A4 you could continue having immense mod support

I’ve not seen the black market that bad in AR, just stupid people paying kids on FIVERR to import ripped assets. I haven’t seen it professionalized. Just my personal experience thus far

[rugged prawn]

we have, but they learned quick that being public about it cases bans and problems, so its a lot more clandestine now, but still happens

[cyan geyser]

Speaking of which

#ip_rights_violations message

Sounds like a framework is atleast in the works

[abstract crest]

Part of that is that for a long time Reforger wasn't that popular tbh. Take a look at what goes on in the DayZ space for a possible future.

[cyan geyser]

That’s fair. It just took off with this recent wave of what I assume was BI marketing campaign

[icy linden]

Ngl $0.1 for every item picked up in bacon loadout editor sounds like fun

[abstract crest]

Maybe a subscription to save your loadout?

[icy linden]

$0.1 for each barrett m82 APIT round

That will balance the weapon in pvp

[abstract crest]

With gold level required for launchers

[unreal egret]

ok now were off the chain, we started talking about paying modders for their time in enfusion tools. Not fortnite micro transactions

[abstract crest]

All monetization schemes end with fortnite micro transactions 😉

[cyan geyser]

This is factually untrue

Fortnite and any game with a battle pass disgust me

https://www.ign.com/articles/former-ea-ceo-devs-who-dont-focus-on-microtransactions-are-the-biggest-f-idiots

I just thought this was pretty funny

It’s a good representation of how a part of the gaming industry has made monetization sickening

[halcyon moth]

So smart so sincere so stoopid

[cyan geyser]

He now is the unity CEO 😂

[meager fractal]

1$ for every 100 rounds in Reforger confirmed

[cyan geyser]

I can fix this, I’m bout to dial up ole Marek and get the board spun up. I’ve got my Black Belt in Lean Sigma Six.

We’re about to be selling emotes on reforger

Wanna hit the griddy 5.99!
Wanna hit the soldier boy, 2.99!

[halcyon moth]

Better Netcode DLC for 29.99! but way there's m-
-# replication error

[abstract crest]

Gonna be funny when Reforger server monetization is approved and no server running RHS can monetize 😉

[halcyon moth]

You can't joke about that man
some dude in EA LITERALLY suggested that in an earnings call
I think
holy shit it's the guy above

[fiery egret]

holy shit it's the guy above
GRAHAME?!?! 😳
|| 😛 ||

[abstract crest]

😏

[meager fractal]

burgerpan Grahame 9001y monetisation demon, begone!!

[halcyon moth]

So you're the reason we don't have Titan Fall 3
someone grab the gallows..

[icy linden]

Not yet, that's later this year

[abstract crest]

My small ARMA 3 server on my dedi has cost me about $13,000 since 2015... refuse to monetize, only accept donations to cover costs which have never covered the costs. Same for my SCUM server on a GSP since 2018 and I live week by week on my paycheck. So am a big believer that if you cannot afford to run a server, don't...

And then you have the streamers running servers who not only are monetizing the game through their streaming but also whine about server costs and how they should be able to monetize them 🤦

[pliant oracle]

enough for sandwhich money tho

[abstract crest]

Pretty much yeah. When a donation helps with the monthly costs I can have extra beers that month 🙂

[cyan geyser]

I think that’s just poor financial management if you live week to week and pay for two servers tbh… there are approved monetization policies for A3, that could maybe help with that.

[abstract crest]

I fundamentally disagree with the monetization policies. If I could not afford the costs I would just not run servers... 🤷

[cyan geyser]

I mean that’s your incentive, it’s your life, your money live and use it how you want I reckon

I have certain brands that I do not give my money to, because I don’t support some of the same things they do. Kinda similar I guess

[abstract crest]

The dedi also runs the "official" US/East Hellion server and normally another game server, typically PZ (also not monetized 😉 )

And will run my SCUM server when the server files are released with 1.0 this quarter, which will save me paying the GSP for the server

[minor cove]

Me poor, and no one of the team played on the server (Just developed and kept it running) i was running a few years ago.
So I just posted on the discord "If we don't meet the donation goal we are forced to close the server".
We had like 130€ costs monthly (High end server at OVH) + Anti cheat + Battlemetrics subscription to handle the masses of players.
Always worked if there were times the donation goal was not met.

[abstract crest]

Absolutely, there have been months over the last 10 years where I have said the same (minus the idea of a target or goal).

[vast stump]

There's 3 kinds of running servers. You do it so you and your friends can play, or you do it as free service for the community or you do it to make money

[abstract crest]

And the latter should be prohibited

As soon as money is involved those doing it are more fond of microtransactions than Ubisoft 😛

[icy linden]

But hats

[lethal grove]

arma reforger nft crypto game

[cyan geyser]

According to previous post by the moderators this would not be allowed. Adding a goal to a donation does not make it a donation anymore

[cyan geyser]

What if you want to provide a service to the community, but not lose money on principal? That doesn’t mean you want to make money. I have no need to make money, however out of financial principal if people want to pay to keep the server up and fund things I don’t oppose that. Nor would making money be in the cards

[meager fractal]

donations to help cover server costs are very okay 🙂

[cyan geyser]

Right, he was grouping it into, it’s either a Free service, or you want to make money. I think there’s a middle ground

Provide a free service and not lose money lol

[torpid gull]

In a perfect world, it's all vanilla servers paid for by BI.

[cyan geyser]

That’s far from a perfect world lol

[torpid gull]

Hosting a modded community without any incentive to donate in an econonic downturn is a pipedream.

And that's ok for now, I suppose.

[cyan geyser]

Lmfao 🤣🤣

[abstract crest]

If there is an "incentive to donate" then it is NOT a donation...

[icy linden]

I mean the community continuing to exist is an incentive already, but people want to feel special, so they expect some additional/different kind of reward

[abstract crest]

And that is monetization... which presumably will come, not sure why it hasn't come, suspect both server and mod monetization were part of a program and the latter is more contentious

[cyan geyser]

This chat and the other is stuck in a loop on this subject

[abstract crest]

Welcome to the Bohemia Interactive IP channels 🤣 New here?

[cyan geyser]

Fair

[lethal grove]

very little value is to be found from these channels outside of entertainment and opinion

[cyan geyser]

And you know what they say about opinions… they’re like assholes, everybody has one. Some just really stink 🤣

[abstract crest]

The entertainment is quite good though

[lethal grove]

and for someone reason everyone thinks theirs matters lol

[vast stump]

like before people can donate

they just dont

the system would work already and modders and server hosts can be compensated if people want to donate

they just dont

[abstract crest]

Tell me about it 😭 I would be rich if every player who'd said they'd help out actually did 🤣

[torpid gull]

Such a fickle space.

As a BI dev in here said, "mods are just a hobby"

[vast stump]

well there is truth in that

[torpid gull]

Doesn't it all start as a hobby, though?

[vast stump]

sure

[torpid gull]

Not that it's super relevant.

[vast stump]

but then you can move on to make it a job by making your own game for example

[abstract crest]

They are and should remain that way. Unfortunately BI seem to be heading for the dark side. More reason for me to stay on ARMA 3 tbh

[torpid gull]

I mean-- valid.

[vast stump]

or like cdlc program did

[torpid gull]

I'll be damned if it isn't frustrating, though. Such is the expense of building on someone elses work, I guess.

[vast stump]

that

also if you want to be altruistic and cater to the community for hosting a server you can do that

but you dont have to

you could just play the game as it is

[torpid gull]

Totally. And if you're truly dissatistfied, there are other games.

I get that.

[vast stump]

there is that too

do you for example host for sake of being able to play?

[abstract crest]

Let's not forget those who have come before. OFP/ARMA/ARMA2/ARMA3... none of those folks (other than the bad guys) made money off their work. 150000 ARMA 3 mods

[torpid gull]

We host because we feel like the basis of Arma is absolutely phenomenal (many of us are A2 -> Reforger vets), but we want small tweaks to enhance gameplay.

But we could all play without.

[vast stump]

CUP got million subs. all of those people throw in dollar a year and the guys could just mod for days on end

well after taxes that does kind aget reduced

[abstract crest]

Instead they just work for BI now 😜

[vast stump]

some do sure

[icy linden]

Bro I swear if people just gave a dollar each

[torpid gull]

Man. Literally, Bacon.

How many people run your loadouts.

Like fr.

[abstract crest]

Honestly, the fact that those guys do gave me hope for ARMA 4 after Reforger... Not joking...

[icy linden]

Like

World hunger

[torpid gull]

People come in all the time and "hell yeah we love it here", but like, bruh. Pitch in a dollar for the $1200/mo then.

[icy linden]

✅ fixed