#ip_rights_violations

1 messages ยท Page 62 of 1

rapid cypress
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Damn, now hats a badly designed pdf

carmine folio
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^ it really is

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But is that US law or something? Iโ€™m confused

rapid cypress
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although from what I've seen most US military related pdfs seem to look like this so heh

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the Arma 3 End user License Agreement states that

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basically Bi is saying 'you can use this for that, that and that, but not taht and that

carmine folio
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That surprises me

rustic copper
carmine folio
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What is Bohemiaโ€™s reasoning for that

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Because it sounds like a good way of free advertising

rapid cypress
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blobdoggoshruggoogly they decided that

rustic copper
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protecting their property, just like any other publisher protects their property

manic laurel
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so they would decide if they want to grant usage for free or not, not a third party

rustic copper
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and I wouldn't be surprised if they have an agreement with BISim regarding military contracts

carmine folio
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So from what Iโ€™m getting here is that arma said: Hey, companies, private or not, you cannot use my game, or even screenshots of it in presentations, training, or anything like that

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What is Bohemia gonna do? Sue?

rapid cypress
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They'd have a legal reason to sue afaik

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not that it'd be the first step

rustic copper
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You are not allowed to use Arma, in any way, to make money. And I'm sure they would/could sue for that, although not worth it and usually solved before it even comes that far

manic laurel
carmine folio
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Rgr

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I think I understand

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Where does it say that companies canโ€™t use arma 3 user generated media

rustic copper
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Nobody claimed that...
although see the EULA, point 1.B.iv

blissful veldt
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I think that's common sense

manic laurel
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common sense doesn't (always) apply to laws ๐Ÿ˜„

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and would it be common, we wouldn't need laws to begin with ๐Ÿ˜Ž

blissful veldt
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Yeah, but if it is a company, it probably monetizes stuff, and monetization with content that doesn't belong to you is always bad

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Well unless that stuff is open source and/or you have the right licenses of course

carmine folio
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So we are inferring the company presenting the presentation is monetizing from it, which is against EULA

blissful veldt
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Yes

carmine folio
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What would there punishment be for violating EULA

blissful veldt
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Well that's up to BI's lawyers, czech law, and the judge

carmine folio
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Wait Bohemia is based in Czech?

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That sentence sounds hilarious

blissful veldt
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Also the BI Tools (which is the tool that was used to make the game and mods) EULA says "(iv) Commercially exploit or allow a 3rd party commercially exploit game content you created using the Software, including but not limited to use by military organizations for computer aided training or commercially released game content; "

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Yeah, Bohemia interactive is based in Czechia

carmine folio
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Makes sense, just sounds weird because not many companies are based in there

blissful veldt
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Well, what did you think the Bohemia in Bohemia Interactive stood for ๐Ÿ˜„

carmine folio
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Lmao

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I guess I just thought it was a name for a brand, I know Bohemia is a place, just never really thought about why itโ€™s named that

tall oxide
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Actually its only called Bohemia Interactive if it comes from the czech region of bohemia. Otherwise its just sparkling walking-simulator

carmine folio
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Or get flung 100km by chicken-wire simulator

tall oxide
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czech space programm.

faint nacelle
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there are quite few czech game companies I believe and many more all over the europe

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game making is not America exclusive

manic laurel
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(hopefully!)

carmine folio
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Yeah ik, Japan is where most started

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Well

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Wait yeah

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Nintendo moment

rustic copper
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actually...

The earliest known publicly demonstrated electronic game was created in 1950. Bertie the Brain was an arcade game of tic-tac-toe, built by Josef Kates for the 1950 Canadian National Exhibition

soft egret
# carmine folio What is Bohemiaโ€™s reasoning for that

Selling a military use product is subject to a WHOLE load of different restrictions, compared to a game.
So to legally be on the safe side, its easier to forbid it..
Not even thinking about the fact that military solution is what BI's sister company Bohemia Interactive Simulation's whole business is.

soft egret
soft egret
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And if you try to argue that a company, trying to sell services to the military using Arma screenshots to promote themselves is using Arma for "entertainment and recreation purposes" then I don't know what to think about you.

soft egret
rustic copper
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feel free to think what you want; but I never tried to argue that...
only pointed out that I thought it was explicitly mentioned before

soft egret
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Why are you being offensive? Didn't try to argue that

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I also think it was there once.
But if you read it, its basically still there just in different wording

rustic copper
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you reply to me with "if you ... I don't know what to think about you", so yes, I took that as something pointed to me

soft egret
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That wasn't the reply to you

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That is a seperate message.
The reply ends at the quote

rustic copper
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than I apologize for reading that incorrect

soft egret
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with "you" I meant the person that said "So we are inferring the company presenting the presentation is monetizing from it, which is against EULA"
Which.. considering its a company trying to sell stuff to the military using the screenshot in the presentation as promotional material... is a weird question to ask, because that should be obvious.

earnest mirage
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Or I confused it with Namalsk? ๐Ÿค”
Pretty Sure Namalsk is fine, there are several Versions on the Workshop, Since its mainly used by Exile and the map Text reads 'made by Sumrak and Exile Team, ported by (Person i forgot the Name of)' and again its been around for ages, even has a ATS Patch so its probably Not Namalsk

soft egret
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Yes Sumrak is very open. One guy in my unit also got permission from him to modify/port namalsk to A3. Though he never did so

earnest mirage
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Yea i figured, also His meme in the Tunnel is pretty suggestive of that

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Namalsk is probably my favorite map

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Im currently getting into map making and i'mma try and Create a map a little Bigger with a simmular Spoopy Dead Forrest vibe

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Namalsk is the only map with this black, Dead Grass and area

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And its very small

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Which is kinda sad

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Since its the Most fun to Play on in ravage

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But it sucks beeing abled to Drive from Sebjan to brensk in under 10 min

crystal talon
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Can a BI person here confirm that Kickass stuff is bad and has stolen stuff? A bunch of people in my groups are adamant that it is simple heresay and just want proof.

rustic copper
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The name is familiar to me, but I can't remember it hearing in combination with ripped content.
But I'm sure someone knows more about it (doesn't have to be a BI employee, but is possible)

crystal talon
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He also has this posted on a few of his other mods

I apologize for this MOD have been removed by BIS in the previous period , thanks for yours understanding, and sorry for any inconvenience .
This is the last update , unfortunately , due to this MOD may be deleted at any time by BIS ...... again .
So please subscribe this MOD and backup the files to the local ( X:\Steam\steamapps\common\Arma 3!Workshop@Complementary Special Weapons ) .
Thank you for your guys' s support all the time . And ...... goodbye ! (ห‰โ–ฝห‰)

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I'm not disagreeing with the decision to remove it, it is just that some people in my unit don't believe that it is a bad idea to add a mod that has been repeatedly taken down from the workshop to our modset, all in the name of getting a barely-functional taser. notlikemeow

midnight crystal
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Ho yeah that guy takes what he wants no matter the rights, I've seen some Battlefield 4 and Black ops 2 stuff and most recently a katana from killing floor 2 (I think Dedmen was the one who found that one)

rustic copper
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I wouldn't use it anyway... higher quality content is available elsewhere, without the ripping

faint nacelle
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When he first apperead he had descriptions on his mods where the guns were from, Hitman, Crysis, Battlefields etc

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High doubt can be put into him making any of them himself

crystal talon
rustic copper
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just say no and be done with it...

chilly silo
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My LVCP mk5 together with lots of other people's content

tropic hatch
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we're still in the middle of transferring files from that package yes

chilly silo
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youve had 2 days

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cmon

tropic hatch
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i apologize, i was taking my weekend to spend time with my family

chilly silo
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it really does feel like you are taking the piss. Looking back ive DMCA'd "Manticore" packs atleast 5 times that i can see in my links.

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its simple remove the download.

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create a collection and stop uploading other people's content. its really not that hard.

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You've done it for lots of other addon packs...

tropic hatch
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i don't have any ill-will or reason to inherently steal from creators

chilly silo
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yet you are giving our rights away

tropic hatch
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yes, i listed all the mod we used in our packages because i want to ensure people know who's mods we were using

chilly silo
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so why not just add them to the collection rather than re-upload them?

tropic hatch
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well, as i said, i'm in the process of doing that

chilly silo
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it takes 5 mins

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@soft egret

tropic hatch
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all of our missions have dependencies built from those files, and we're cutting content from those files because half the reason of those packages is to save our commandline

crystal talon
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mark it as private for the duration then

tropic hatch
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we use armahosts, and we have to make sure our command line is 1:1 with mods

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we can't just simply delete the mods

chilly silo
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collections do that

tropic hatch
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sorry boss, but it isn't that simple for us

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again, i don't intend to mishandle or abuse your services in any way, that wasn't my intention with the packages

chilly silo
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It really simple for me

tropic hatch
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are you actually going to take legal action against someone who is just trying to save themselves the stress over simple ensuring their server doesn't crash?

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again, i apologize for making the packages in the first place

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and again, i don't have any ill will with the packages

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but disposing of them takes time for us

chilly silo
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Its shite like this that really make s me think twice about releasing anything again. You've been warned , you were told what you needed to do previously and looking at my records this isn't even the first time you've re-uploaded content and been DMCA'd so its not like its ignorance.

tropic hatch
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because our commandline and open-ended creation process isn't simply just setting it up once and letting it rip, the packages were in place so in case changes needed to be made, we didn't have to worry about rewriting the commandline

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otherwise, our headless client rejects the mod order if it isn't 1:1, and our server won't run anymore

chilly silo
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Doesnt seem to be an issue for others.

tropic hatch
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again, i don't mean for this to be an attack on you or some slight of hand trick with my apologies

rustic copper
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It takes 5 minutes to make a collection with the same mods which are currently in the pack, remove the mod from the workshop and you're done.
For members; they just have to get the collection and download them
And rewriting the command line also takes 10 minutes...

Tbf... that these guys gave you the weekend to resolve it is already nice, I usually DMCA directly ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ

tropic hatch
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i don't see why you guys need to be so brutal about this, i'm trying my best

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i only just got our maintainer to delete the old mods on friday, and i wanted to spend time with my family over the weekend

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we aren't making money off the packages, most of them have been disposed of so far, and we weren't using these in an attempt to steal your work

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i don't know what a dmca means or entails but

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i'm not going to court over this, it's just a server of like 15 guys

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we just want to play arma, and we have issues that required us to organize this way

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again, i apologize sincerly

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i understand the work you guys put in, this wasn't an affront against your efforts though

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i just wanted to save myself some time and effort, same for my friends who wanted to make missions as well

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you don't need to beat me over the head for this, i just need time to continue breaking these packages down and figuring out what can and should be cut

chilly silo
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None of this is flying with me. You already made a collection. yet you chose to re-upload some stuff.

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All of the reasons why you should not do this have already been explained.

tropic hatch
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from my perspective, we could have 100 mods that need to be sorted out in the command line, or we could have 20

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if one of those mods are wrong in the commandline then it all comes crashing down for us, which is why it takes me time

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i didn't know of these reasons until the end of last week when i came in here to apologize to the mod creators i unknowingly may have hurt by making those packages

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so what are you going to do if i take time for myself? sue me?

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i just want time to think about how i'm going to do this and ensure my missions are working after the mods are cut

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i was just doing this for my friends, not to harm you

chilly silo
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Keep going, you are just making it worse

tropic hatch
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i'm not trying to fight you mate

chilly silo
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You were told what you need to do, you committed to do it. The legal reasons why you shouldn't do it were explained to you. You said you understood

tropic hatch
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i'm still just trying to make things right

chilly silo
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now you are getting arsey because youve been called on it again

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Delete the re-uploads

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or wait on the DMCA results

crystal talon
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Use a script for it like any sane person

tropic hatch
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again man, i'm trying my best

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i just wanted to spend the weekend for my personal time, my last worry was over a video game that i play co-op missions with friends on

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you have to understand i didn't mean for these packages to be an attack or total theft from you

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i didn't intend to use them for any nefarious reasons, it was made so i can keep things simple for me and my friends

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and i'm only halfway through the process of disposing of those packages

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give me at least two more days before i can confirm it's all gone

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we haven't even gotten to organizing out the vehicles package that you linked

chilly silo
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DMCA is already in

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you can take it down or Valve will

tropic hatch
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i don't know what that even means

crystal talon
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Well, he can't now that the DMCA is up

tropic hatch
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and again, i'm not going to fight you over this

rustic copper
crystal talon
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yeah @tropic hatch just start redoing the dependencies, the mod is going down now and there isn't anything you can do about it

tropic hatch
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man i'm just trying to play a game with my group of friends

rustic copper
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same here, and never had any issues ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ

chilly silo
tropic hatch
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i don't intend to get sued over it, but i don't intend to treat this like a career either

crystal talon
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you aren't getting sued, you're just having your mod get taken down

tropic hatch
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okay, that's fine

crystal talon
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as long as you don't try to counterclaim thats as bad as it will get

tropic hatch
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i don't intend to counterclaim no

crystal talon
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but yeah you can't touch that mod upload anymore, can't even remove it. It is frozen until it is processed by Steam.

tropic hatch
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again i sincerely apologize, i was just trying to save myself some effort and i didn't realize these packages could be harmful to you folks until recently when i joined to get an understanding of how i could fix this

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the packages weren't made in an attempt to steal or claim from you guys

chilly silo
tropic hatch
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well i'm glad to understand you guys aren't sending me to prison over this, i thought that was what was going on here honestly

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i don't intend to counterclaim, and i understand the files need to be removed

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they are being removed, and so far we've gotten stuff like the quality of life package, which had most of the mods, out of the way

rustic copper
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btw... just checked the SW page of RKSL content, which has a link to the license which has in capital letters:

DO NOT UPLOAD TO STEAM WORKSHOP: It is forbidden to distribute the content of this package by itself, or as part of another distribution, using the Steam Workshop by anyone other than RKSL Studios. You may not upload to Steam Workshop or any other service that reassigns rights over RKSL Studios Intellectual Property to 3rd Parties.
Similar applies to most other mods in the list...

So no idea how anyone ever though about doing it anyway ๐Ÿคฆโ€โ™‚๏ธ

tropic hatch
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i didn't really read any of that tbh

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i didn't understand what it meant, and i didn't think doing this for my small gaggle of friends would have ever been such an issue

rustic copper
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Not to mention the Workshop EULA which you need to agree on when submitting to the workshop, which states that you must OWN what you upload...

tropic hatch
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so my eyes naturally glazed over it

rustic copper
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well, the fact that you don't read doesn't mean that it's allowed and people should leave you some slack...

tropic hatch
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of course not, it's not about how we came to this point my friend

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it's about how we can fix it, which i'm fully intent on doing ๐Ÿ™‚

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again, me coming into apologize and understanding how to fix this wasn't some lie through my teeth, as you can see most of the packages made by our maintainer and i are gone, deleted by us

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i just needed some time due to the scope of what we were doing

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or rather, what we've been tasked to do

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i would have never guessed compiling a few mods to save myself a bit of trouble could go this far, but i thank you guys for not sending the entirety of the fbi or something on me as i'm sure some of you have the power to do haha ๐Ÿ™

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anyways, dmca or not, this will not happen again

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my violations, anyways

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i don't know how much my word means on that, but i will do my best to ensure i pass this ideal along

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not just to my guys, but any other unit i'm in that may have done this or considered it

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and i apologize if it seemed like i was fighting you on this @chilly silo i was just trying to explain where i was in the process and why it seemed like i was lying to you about removing the mod

compact hawk
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Ngl, looks like the guy made a mistake, he's apologised profusely for it and is taking things down. He's clearly apologetic about it so I'm confused why people rip into him, mans doing his best ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ

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Maybe i've missed something, but thats the vibe I get.

chilly silo
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His "best" would have been deleting the re-uploads days ago when first asked. ๐Ÿ˜‰

compact hawk
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Eh, IRL>GAME imo

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Or even better, Family > Game

carmine folio
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problably didnt understand the siuation

chilly silo
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Well My IP Rights > than his convenience.

carmine folio
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if some guys were telling me "take it down take it down!" in wouldnt have a clue whats going on

chilly silo
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It was explained at great length

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read up

compact hawk
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Ye, I get that. Though you could've just told him to delete it or DMCA and be done with it. But once again ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ

chilly silo
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I did

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he made excuses

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and that was 3 days ago

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so when i find another re-upload i think im within my rights to be pissed enough to call him on it ๐Ÿ˜‰

rustic copper
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I understand that it looks pretty hard, but the problem is; if one person does it, everyone thinks they can do it as well. Which will result in the same problems as other workshop games (just look at how much ripped content there is for GMod etc.)
Some mod devs don't care, some do care but give out a warning first, while others just put down a DMCA directly.

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In the end; it's not my problem if people don't read, even when they don't know copyright laws (which in most countries is well known)

compact hawk
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Calling out is one thing, then theres just arguing. Should've just gone to DMCA tbh but eh.

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I get ya Grez, totally agree - give people an inch they'll take a mile. I'm not defending him either, but at least he is communicative and from what I see attempting to fix his wrongs.

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Anyways, cheers for the chat - hope it gets sorted soon. Have a good day / evening โœŒ๏ธ

chilly silo
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Ive spent 4 hours in the last 3 days doing Warnings and DMCAs. And god knows how long explaining why re-uploading content is bad. i believe in educate first then DMCA. I gave him 3 days to remove it. He didnt.

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If you want to jump in and 2nd guess without doing the research before commenting i cant stop you. But before you get involved atleast take the time to get the facts.

compact hawk
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That's kinda rude tbh. Was just giving my own opinion lol.

chilly silo
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So is joining in without knowing what actually happened

compact hawk
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Well the big old rant you provided seemed like enough lol

chilly silo
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Yes he apologised. He did that 3 days ago too

compact hawk
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All the best ๐Ÿ‘

chilly silo
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Show me where i ranted? I called him on his BS.

spare osprey
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Points were made , DMCA issued,letโ€™s move on, no point to keep going around in circles. Or take this chat to off topic IP

chilly silo
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LMAO, its was a done issue until "opinions" were lofted over the wall ๐Ÿ˜›

blissful veldt
manic laurel
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!ban @tropic hatch 0 IP infringements - Steam reuploads. When you are done removing them, dm me (@manic laurel) to be unbanned from the official Arma Discord.

edgy coralBOT
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*fires them railguns at @tropic hatch* ร’_ร“

arctic phoenix
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@blissful veldt thanks for the heads up. I'm probably going to let them leave it up since I have no plans to port it. But I appreciate you having my back.

Although they seem to be using pictures from a different guy's Miroslavl terrain. I'll make sure they're using mine though.

blissful veldt
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No problem!

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Speaking of which, would one be allowed then to modify the terrains to finish them?

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Was and still am a huge fan of the project, even though it seems to be unfortunately dead

soft egret
soft egret
soft egret
manic laurel
vivid wave
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He's not here anymore ยฏ_(ใƒ„)_/ยฏ

soft egret
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If you don't have time to fix it properly, just delete it and then fix it later.

manic laurel
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he - has - been - removed

soft egret
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@tropic hatch I'm starting to loose my patience too.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2279653304

This contains mods that say on their main workshop page

For your Steam accounts safety, do not reupload it to the workshop as it violates Steam Subscriber Agreement section 6B.

Copyright 2019 diwako. This item is not authorized for posting on Steam, except under the Steam account named diwako
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@burnt oak ^

manic laurel
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@soft egret โ†’โ†’ Pandacg has been removed from this chat โ†โ†

blissful veldt
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๐Ÿ˜„

manic laurel
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banned - permanently - from the whole server

burnt oak
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wowy

soft egret
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Okey I arrived at the bottom now

manic laurel
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no, u the bottom

soft egret
burnt oak
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kinda sad i cannot see what he wrote now, oh well

soft egret
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no messages were removed

manic laurel
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he was not purgebanned

burnt oak
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aaaah, just blind as usual, got it

blissful veldt
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I am a huge proponent of FOSS and GPL, but man, if someone has spent endless hours of their free time you could at least have the decency to respect their work by not ripping it

stiff jasper
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if he knew how to read he would have spent all the free time with his family without being yeeted out from the community

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I guess a lot of A3 community members lack of thing called "minimal responsibility"

manic laurel
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not just this community but yes, mostly l*fers and anzusers

crystal talon
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anzusers?

manic laurel
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players of anzus stuff, which is a collection of illegal/hacked models and so on

midnight crystal
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if a4 could have proprietary workshop that'd be great ๐Ÿ˜‰

manic laurel
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revoking Arma license from poopy reuploads, hell yeah โœ…

rapid cypress
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So who knows, it might happen

midnight crystal
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wasn't that presentation cancelled? or maybe I'm thinking about another one

rapid cypress
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the first date got cancelled but he held it digitally at the GDS conference two weeks or so ago

blissful veldt
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Not sure if I'm the biggest fan, but I'm gonna trust BI on that I guess

manic laurel
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like you have a choice ๐Ÿง›โ€โ™‚๏ธ ๐Ÿ˜‹

rapid cypress
manic laurel
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and would allow for not being a Steam-exclusive, too

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โ€ฆjust thought of Arma 4 on Epic Games ๐Ÿ˜„

rapid cypress
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Sounds like a good reason to not buy that Arma 4 heh

manic laurel
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!purgedan @rapid cypress 0 betrayal!!1!

rapid cypress
cobalt creek
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@manic laurel You missed the !

manic laurel
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(oh, thanks!)

cobalt creek
gusty isle
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corrects Lou's spelling...

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oh wait

blissful veldt
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@rapid cypress Yeah Steam Workshop is... something. But I like the openness, well, apart from the guys stealing stuff

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I don't really like monopolies, but then again Steam Workshop already is a monopoly

manic laurel
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soon we will have a Bohemia Launcher!! \o'/

rustic copper
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The Workshop is IMHO a great system for game devs to have proper mod support, but I think we can all agree that it's open for improvement.
And having different half-working systems for each game, which only costs extra money and resources for the game devs, and in the end just annoys players...

blissful veldt
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Hope the moddability of Enfusion will also bring waaaaaaaaaay better tools

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Especially terrain tools

rapid cypress
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Btw I think this would be something better suited to #general_chat_arma , since we're way off topic

blissful veldt
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Oh yeah right

manic laurel
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noban plox kthxbai

earnest mirage
rustic copper
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You are aware you can report the content on the workshop, or send an email to Disney/Marvel. Because there is nothing we can do about it (legally).

Regarding that mod; I would say that it's ok-ish, since the only thing which links to Marvel is the name (and perhaps logo, didn't check the content itself). Changing those to W.I.E.L.D. and it's a parody.
But I'm not a lawyer and it's up to Disney/Marvel to take action if they think it's needed.

hot horizon
fossil basalt
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@earnest mirage

Disney, the IP rights holder EXPLICITLY PROHIBIT the use of its IP outside of its designated license holders. As such, its related IP are prohibited in Arma and on its Forums/Discords.


Please direct reports to us via one of the following methods:
Email: tips@disneyantipiracy.com```

In the 18+ years that I've been a member of this community, **Disney has never granted consent for use of its IP for this purpose**.  When the Disney legal team was spoken to, their answer was (to paraphrase) "If you see someone saying otherwise, kill it with fire".
manic laurel
#

and @hot horizon โ†‘
maybe if you provide evidence that would be great to settle the issue ๐Ÿ™‚

small minnow
#

question, in terms of the SCP foundation, what is the status on usage in Arma 3 Missions

manic laurel
#

last time I heard about it, since these are internet creepy pasta, nobody copyrighted them - except for the obvious already existing games ofc, which you cannot reverse-engineer

small minnow
#

thats what I thought, just wanted to make sure, thank you comrade!

manic laurel
#

don't take my word for it and look it up by yourself, but it seems to be that way. Good luck! o7

midnight crystal
#

Might be worth adding to the bi wiki page

manic laurel
#

absolutely!

#

though, do we have more resources or is it about as much as we are getting?

midnight crystal
#

Itโ€™s what Iโ€™m aware of

#

They do give the email of their licensing team though

manic laurel
dull moon
#

and will be renewed a day after without any changes... like usual...

#

ยฏ_(ใƒ„)_/ยฏ

fossil basalt
#

For the love of Cthulhu, end monetisation.

small minnow
#

hey @midnight crystal thank you so so much! Appreciations!

rapid cypress
cobalt creek
#

Won't stop the abusers.

#

Full stop, imho.

blissful veldt
#

Maybe monetization per request, and the community has to share information on their income

#

Like who paid what, what amount and what did they get

#

Otherwise, yeah, end monetization

faint nacelle
#

it costs a lot of money to keep tabs on things like that

#

so BI would need a cut to cover the costs most likely

earnest mirage
#

thats what I thought, just wanted to make sure, thank you comrade!
@small minnow hey there, i am assuming you found my Mod (SCP- EXPUNGED) to say the least, As far as i know the SCP Franchise is Uncopyrighted (atleast in Most countries (apart from russia.. thats still very Gray) and there for there should Not be any legal Issues, cheers

manic laurel
earnest mirage
#

Oki, No problem

vivid wave
#

How about to add S.T.A.L.K.E.R. to the IP article? Was really a special case IIRC

fossil basalt
#

Moderator "Don Reba" said it was "ok", based on a supposedly old IRC conversation he'd had with one of the developers. This was subsequently posted in 2011 (before the rights battle over STALKER IP). For me, its not the kind of proof I'd use as evidence.

#

The IP rights holders have not stated publicly that its "OK" in any way.

In a sense, it would be like me saying that "BI are OK with "x". I have no authority or legal standing to say so. As such it would be null and void.

small minnow
manic laurel
#

@small minnow @earnest mirage

"not imposing additional legal restrictions through EULAs or equivalent user forms, and not attempting to impede any alternate distribution sources so long as those sources in turn follow the terms of the license."

using SCP in Arma would restrict its license, which is forbidden

So, in essence, no Arma

Intellectual_Property wiki page to be updated

small minnow
#

gotcah gotcha!

#

I will change my stuffs!

manic laurel
#

sorry about SCP-based Arma content, and thanks for you to amend! ๐Ÿ‘

vivid wave
#

Keep it mind that some of SCP had another rules individually! (eg SCP-173)

earnest mirage
#

Im gonna contact the Moderators of the SCP Wiki, and See If we can get Something sorted, my Mod dosen't contain any SCPs, Just Retextures and Custom Crates

#

We'd use Drongo's spooks and anomalies

#

Since we all know of what SCPs are Copyrighted and What Not, er didn't even really start on anomalies (we'd Just write our own)

manic laurel
earnest mirage
#

I am going to do that, i know one of them

manic laurel
#

if you can manage to get an Arma-wide exception, I am sure you will make many people happy ๐Ÿ™ƒ ๐Ÿ™‚

earnest mirage
#

Its Worth a try, lol

crystal talon
manic laurel
#

both actually

#

anything that went through BI Tools cannot be sold without prior agreement with Bohemia Interactive a.s

earnest mirage
#

Well were not selling anything, were doing it for free

manic laurel
tall oxide
#

Thats why you dont use uncommon/special licenses for public works ๐Ÿ‘€ bc theres a good chance you ll get license conflicts

sleek remnant
#

Looks like there are quite a few different ones on his page

faint nacelle
rustic copper
#

I was like... looks like someone just did the same as CUP, importing Arma 2 objects...
and then I saw for which game the content is ๐Ÿคฆโ€โ™‚๏ธ

sleek remnant
tall oxide
limpid veldt
#

lol anyone look at the armed suv with the low polys lol

covert depot
#

Hey not sure if this is relevant but I've just seen some guy bragging about porting this to his GTA 5 server

#

is that allowed?

manic laurel
#

if it is Arma content, no

#

but I don't know what that is

covert depot
#

i might be being special here but that looks straight from CUP which Im pretty sure in itself is from A2

#

i've just remade it and its all from CUP

manic laurel
#

then clearly not allowed, and clearly nukeable โ˜ข๏ธ

soft egret
#

If its bohemia content, the mail in channel description.
If its CUP content, not sure if they or Bohemia would handle that?

rapid cypress
#

I'd send it to cup, they can props judge better who should handle it

manic laurel
#

@dull moon, customer for ya?

dull moon
#

I'll forward it. Not at home for quite some time

manic laurel
#

HAH! you're Santa, I knew it!

dull moon
#

No, the grinch

crystal talon
#

It is originally from there, so not sure if CUP can strike it

covert depot
#

Ah fair enough I thought it was an A2 port as I haven't played it in years. Don't mind me I was just curious

#

Cheers guys

chilly silo
dull moon
#

Although toadie doesn't really approve ripping her stuff, she's not into enforcing DMCAs on her stuff iirc.

fossil basalt
#

Kill it with fire. Though I expect the "new guard" to say "stop, or I'll say stop again" (repeated ad nauseam)

chilly silo
#

Although toadie doesn't really approve ripping her stuff, she's not into enforcing DMCAs on her stuff iirc.
Which is her prerogative. But doesn't mean we should tolerate ripping. Her stuff is only a part of the ripped stuff in there. I'm told there lots of content from various games and other community authors I couldn't identify.

#

If someoen else want to take a look and see if they can identify its origin...

manic laurel
fossil basalt
#

It wasn't in reference to the Moderators.

ruby vigil
#

yo theres a arma 3 life server that has DayZ backpacks

#

is that allowed yo

dull moon
#

nope. report to the email in the channel description

ruby vigil
#

Ok thanks

stable zealot
#

So obviously Star Wars is a no by default, but is there any additional framework around IP and donations? I know the OPTRE team have a hard "no" policy on donations so they are not seen to be profiting off the Halo IP. I ask because I noticed the newest Star Wars mod on the workshop talks about paypal donations, and it made me wonder what the go with that is. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2323185592

rustic copper
#

Asking for donations is completely fine, as long as it's to reward the developer for his hard work and not monetize the content.
If a dev team decides to not allow donations it's up to them, but other than the monetization rules there is no rule/law/whatever against asking for donations.

jovial mica
#

Pretty sure the donation can be seen as a simple "gift", as long as its not marketed towards paying for the content or anything like that then its okay

chilly silo
#

tbh Its up to the IP holder to decide how they interpret the term "donation". It varies.

faint nacelle
#

Some of them might not look favourable even donations. Very dangerous to just assume its OK.

#

The consequences can be severe too.

fossil basalt
#

Any receipt of money on an IP that you are using, but do not have explicit (legally binding) consent to use (and specifically addresses donations) can lead to EXTREMELY severe penalties.

stable zealot
#

Well I've already had severe backlash advising the mod creator that this Star Wars mod may be taken down in the near future, so I don't like my chances of also adding on top the fact that he should probably avoid donations... Might just let this one play itself out lol, if he digs his own hole deeper then that's on him.

faint nacelle
#

yes well SW makers pretty much are aware of the possbile problems

dull moon
#

they just ignore it

buoyant sierra
#

Unless it's a particular SW modding group, that ban people from using the mod and charge them to have their steamid removed from the code as a hard ban...

earnest mirage
#

We don't Talk about those "People"... They are equally hated by EVERYONE including Most other Star wars Creators, be it in Arma, Battlefront or what not

vivid scarab
#

If I remember correctly the first iteration of that ban caused a memory leak as well - they got clapped over it pretty swiftly.

fossil basalt
#

@earnest mirage Hate is a strong word. They are looked upon with disdain for violating IP rights / laws.

earnest mirage
#

fair enough, but no one would want any of their modders in their unit or anything

echo orchid
#

modders...lol

earnest mirage
#

ouch, yea

fossil basalt
#

Calling them "modders" is an insult to modders. Most of our "modders" are artists.

earnest mirage
#

now that, is true

fluid elbow
#

honestly.. these light saber animations look like fun and are well done ^^... i dont think all are hated that much only cause of any SW mod

earnest mirage
#

We're talking about a different Mod ||SWOP|| they mainly ripped

dull moon
#

TIL: copyright infrigment is a felony in the U.S. (same as murder, child pornography, burglary and many more)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony
and since disney is U.S. based, and the law of the country where a case is filed must be upheld, SW dudes need to dress warm if disney rolls out the big guns...

you might want to add this juicy piece of information to the Intellectual Property BIKI site @manic laurel

Felony

A felony is traditionally considered a crime of high seriousness, whereas a misdemeanor is regarded as less serious. The term felony originated from English common law (from the French medieval word "fรฉlonie"), to describe an offense that resulted in the confiscation of a convicted person's land and goods, to which additional punishments includi...

autumn ravine
#

Honestly the light sabers and force mod can just change its name and remove the SW inspired screenshots. Call it laser swords and magic, boom, done.

#

And remove any reference to SW and lore elements

rapid cypress
#

light-pokers and throwy-wind yayautism

urban nexus
#

I don't get why it's such a huge problem. Same thing could happen to, lets say, all the usmc mods since usmc is a trademark on its own. That's just a mod and as long as nobody profits off of it there should be no problem at all imo

autumn ravine
#

Because you are entitled to your IP and you're entitled to dictate how it's used. Do I agree with Disney's stance? No, but it's their right, and I gotta respect that. Just like I don't want ppl stealing my mods.

#

As for the USMC, I'm sure they don't mind, since it probably helps their recruiting lol

urban nexus
#

I don't mean it for the ripped assets, it's just the naming. And yes, they do have every right to do whatever they want with their IP but a bit of tolerance wouldn't cause any damage to anyone. I remember an apc mod almost getting sued by the company that makes those apcs irl. Like why? Just because they can?

autumn ravine
#

Ye, because they can. It is what it is...

faint nacelle
#

@urban nexus the thing is, anyone using the IP would need to ask for if its OK first before publishing anything.

#

Not just assume they can "just because they want to"

dull moon
#

I don't get why it's such a huge problem. Same thing could happen to, lets say, all the usmc mods since usmc is a trademark on its own. That's just a mod and as long as nobody profits off of it there should be no problem at all imo
nope, not entirely true.
the name itself is Public Domain, just the logo from the USMC is a Trademark (iirc).

if you want to educate yourself on that matter, here some links:

Radio Arma Podcast about that matter:
https://soundcloud.com/armahosts-llc/ep-37-intellectual-property

Practical Guide To IP in Arma (by RKSL Rock):
https://arma3practicalipguide.blogspot.com/

BIKI Page:
https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property

DOD Trademark Licensing Guide:
https://www.defense.gov/Resources/Trademarks/DOD-Trademark-Licensing-Guide/

soft egret
#

Afaik trademark holders NEED to defend their rights?

faint nacelle
#

Yes

manic laurel
#

still illegal ยฏ_(ใƒ„)_/ยฏ

tulip nexus
#

IIRC the Blue Harvest mod for Arma 3 was sent a cease-and-desist by Disney before it was even released any further than a single demo character model. That was many years before SWOP and any other SW mod appeared, and all original content rather than stuff ripped from EA's SW titles

#

hence the standing position of moderators to keep all SW content away from official community channels - they know it attracts problems

rustic copper
#

I'm sure SWOP got a C&D as well, but Russia...

#

I'm just surprised that Steam isn't doing anything about it (or other platforms)

faint nacelle
#

Blue harvest stopped since Disney prohibited the IP use. No CnD was issued I believe

#

They did not want to risk it

fossil basalt
#

They have and they still do.

stable zealot
latent mesa
vivid wave
#

Uh, poolpunk's?

latent mesa
#

ah sorry wrong tag I guess

vivid wave
#

Doubt he's here. He has both BIF and Twitter account so should work there

latent mesa
#

lifers...

ember lintel
#

Pretty sure copyright infringement can be prosecuted as both a felony or misdemeanor, depending on severity, like say for instance, theft.

#

comparing it to child pornography is... well I don't even know... a little obtuse to say the least?

#

just trying to add a civil discussion to this where it seems many seem to get somewhat emotional.

earnest mirage
#

What the hell happened here

manic laurel
#

@tawny mesa I can only recommend you watch your words. You have been warned and your post removed.

fathom berry
#

pretty sure no one here has a standing since the Nintendo case in the us back in 1998

fathom berry
#

also the "good faith" defense limits the case to a misdemeanor at best

#

honestly if anyone ever gets shit for a DMCA or harassed incessantly, don't give in. Lawyer up and throw libel counter suits if you need to.

#

Its disgusting reading everything thats said in here. You aren't a child molester, a murderer, or a domestic abuser. Its a game from seven years ago that you want to make content for. I suggest everyone study at least a little law to know where your rights end and somebody elses begin. Honestly all this third-party pseudo-lawyeresse helps no one at all.

#

No one at all ever got exorbitant prison time for anything like this; and to say that someone is on par with the worst of the worst scum is awful

rustic copper
#

That's because a DMCA is a step before any lawyer gets involved, and when they do it usually results in a deal or worst case a huge sum of money.
If you can't/won't pay than it will result in prison time

#

And yes, I have seen the moment that someone got arrested for not paying up!

ember lintel
#

how scary

#

what was it like

fathom berry
#

Arrested and tried? Or was it an out of court settlement?

#

Bond or bail?

#

and what was the case?

#

Look, I'm not trying to say it was wrong or anything, I'm saying that the general person should know their right and where they end.

rustic copper
#

Case: stealing code from a company (copyright case).
DMCA got ignored, lawyers couldn't agree, judge ruling in our favor.
He didn't want to pay, and got arrested to either pay or sit in jail

ember lintel
#

thats...

rustic copper
#

That's how the law works in case of copyright infringement

#

And if you don't agree I don't care, but don't cry afterwards when you sit in jail or have to pay the rest of your life

fathom berry
#

That last part is moral turpitude

#

to maliciously try to bankrupt someone in a case like that would be illegal in and of itself

manic laurel
# fathom berry Its disgusting reading everything thats said in here. You aren't a child moleste...

While I believe we can all agree that comparing a copyright abuse to child molesting / murder / domestic abuse is over-the-top, it still seems to be the actual case in regard of the US law, of which Steam depends. That's unfortunate and it is what it is, but there is not much we can do about that.

Still, copyright abuse is at least fraud, if not blatant theft and/or deception. Our job here is to protect creators (who get discouraged when l*fers get money out of their creation) and to protect Bohemia Interactive (that could be caught in the crossfire).

Simple rule: don't misuse a copyright - otherwise, you will indeed have a community against you. Condone copyright abuse, and you get removed from here. (I say "you" as a general addressing here)

fathom berry
#

Okay so what you're saying in your simple rule is that if you, and I will stress this because what this amounts to is a witch-hunt that opens you yourself to a slander suit in america at the very least, ALLEGEDLY misuse a copyright or condone copyright abuse, you (the general addressee) will be removed from the public forum in which it might be issued, am I wrong?

#

What this does is throw things to a court of public opinion, in which any number of things may happen to the general addressee, no the least of which harassment in and of itself.

#

To throw that particularity into the wind is disgusting.

#

tl;dr it just throw a community at someone because they ALLEGEDLY violated copyright is wrong

rustic copper
#

It's basic international law... And that is pretty clear...

fathom berry
#

But its not.

#

It really isn't.

#

Fair Use/Transformitive law is a fucking mess

#

i hate working with it.

rapid cypress
rustic copper
#

And "fair use" does not apply to "copy & paste"...

fathom berry
#

thats not what im getting at at all

#

what I'm saying is that everyone here can be fudging sued for the misrepresentation of a DMCA

#

i just want people to be safe

rustic copper
#

No one gets sued here... Especially when they don't do anything wrong...

#

And if they do, it's explained why, and if they still intentionally break the law, it's up to the dev to go into legal steps...

manic laurel
fathom berry
#

sir to be fair no one expects anyone to be with them or against them besides the prosecution in any court case.

manic laurel
#

before any court, the intent and action of (obvious) copyright breach speaks for yourself

#

a.k.a stealing work and/or credit. that's about it ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ if it goes to court, I assume enough evidences have been brought up

#

they tend to be more discreet - and they also lose their reupload, and potentially their Steam account.

#

inaction of Bohemia's representatives / politics would not be well accepted, don't you think? it would be like holding the door to them - the message is sent that: nope

full tapir
#

There's a simple trick when it comes to DMCAs. Just don't reupload stuff that isn't yours. Boom problem solved

fathom berry
#

But its not the reuploading thing I have issue with as well, morals not withstanding.

rustic copper
#

So what is your issue? Because I don't get it...

fathom berry
#

The biggest issue, to me is transformative works, such as things from star wars and star trek and all that fun jazz

#

I dont see much of a case for DMCA, if no assets were ripped, and only the world and lore of the work is used

manic laurel
#

I personally don't agree with Disney's stance on that, but they legally have the right to prevent anyone from using their IP, e.g to make sure potential customers will buy their next Star Wars game.

fathom berry
#

Its closer to a parody, protected under the Fair Use clauses, rather than a derivative work, which doesn ot

manic laurel
#

I think I share your point of view regarding "nothing has been ripped, no one pays for anything"
but still.

fathom berry
#

We (us of the modding/Arma community) do not have the legal or moral standing to decide whether or not they are worthy of a DMCA

rustic copper
#

And that's where you're wrong... "Close to a parody" doesn'tean it IS a parody, and therefore NOT fair use...

rapid cypress
#

nothing has been ripped, no one pays for anything
Well that doesnt go for the SWOP 'mod'

manic laurel
fathom berry
#

I'm not naming names.

manic laurel
rustic copper
#

And no one in this community is able to DMCA content we don't own...
So if something got filed it has to be done by Disney (or legal entity)

fathom berry
#

I'm saying that what we as a community should do is just send letters/emails/what have you to people who do have the actual authority to DMCA and follow up.

manic laurel
#

a report to Steam is good enough? ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ

fathom berry
#

Well enough, I suppose, but I more meant the copy-right holder.

#

Steam is not the holder, nor the accused.

#

Rather, a third-party middleman.

#

we are like steam, in that case.

#

third party.

manic laurel
#

and it is in their EULA that you should not upload illegal stuff nor reupload stuffโ€ฆ so their EULA is breached as well

rustic copper
#

Who is hosting the possible illegal content, and therefore IS responsible

fathom berry
#

The question is whether or not it is illegal.

#

therein lies the roundabout nature of copyright

manic laurel
#

it is.

fathom berry
#

Is it?

#

Are we judge jury and executioner now?

manic laurel
#

yes. let's close the topic now.

rustic copper
#

Breaking copyright laws = illegal

fathom berry
#

are we who chooses who lives and who dies?

#

Okay, dude

rapid cypress
#

TIL that not getting to rip stuff is like dying now

ember lintel
#

wow.

manic laurel
#

why, thank you! โ˜บ๏ธ

ember lintel
#

Didn't realize we had so many legal professionals in the Arma 3 Community. Glad you guys work so hard for us.

fathom berry
#

Know your rights.

manic laurel
fathom berry
#

I'm glad.

rustic copper
#

Some people have been in the industry long enough to know how it works
Especially when it comes to differences in different countries and different types of content.

ember lintel
#

lets close the topic now

we welcome information

think_turtle

manic laurel
fathom berry
#

@rustic copper I'm not really supposed to debate here now but I am interested in knowing copyright laws on a country to country basis, hmu?

manic laurel
#

"are we judge, jury and executioner" no, we simply don't take the risk of trying to pass a situation that has been seen 100s of times before and where it always ended badly

something that "looks like" is not a copyright breach, using an IP without permission is theft, period - unless you can prove me wrong?

fathom berry
#

I'm, again, not supposed to say anything, sorry.

manic laurel
#

well, do you have a counter information?

fathom berry
#

What is "counter information" here?

#

I'm not trying to be contrary, despite what you may skew from it.

manic laurel
#

let's not make any mistake - I just don't want anyone here taking defense of obvious thieves. is an obvious unauthorised IP usage theft in regard to the US law, yes - so yes, end of the discussion no? ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ

fathom berry
#

Sir, i've already had my discussion ended 5 minutes ago, you've said it yourself.

manic laurel
#

perfect then

fathom berry
#

Yep

manic laurel
#

.

fathom berry
#

.

manic laurel
#

๐Ÿ˜ฎ

fathom berry
#

๐Ÿค 

rustic copper
#

Bazinga

fathom berry
#

agnizaB

ember lintel
#

it was discussion about IP rights in general I thought

rustic copper
#

But if there are any Copyright and/or IP lawyers on this discord, feel free to contact Lou to get some factual information on the wili

ember lintel
#

lol

manic laurel
fathom berry
#

how freudian

ember lintel
#

actual lawyers have better things to do than play internet sheriff with you guys, I'm afraid. Peace.

rustic copper
#

Moderators also have better things to do, and still Lou is here

manic laurel
ember lintel
#

Looks like a whole hour of billable time, holy smokes.

manic laurel
ember lintel
#

they can be

fathom berry
#

Purdue uni's got a cool tool for copyright exceptions based on previous court cases.

manic laurel
#

that's interesting, thanks for sharing

ember lintel
#

Also most of that BI wiki is about defending BI's own property, so of course they'd have their legal team comb that page and that part is obviously clearly defined. the rest is defensibly speculative.

manic laurel
ember lintel
#

Yeah

#

Obviously.

sonic moss
#

Hey all, can I do anything about someone locally uploading my pbos without my permission? PBOs that have been removed from the steam workshop

fluid elbow
# ember lintel Yeah

I do completly respect other's IP and I did a lot to get my modification to be a legal stuff.. I had to contact EA and I had to get by Bohemia Interactive a official statment about modifications and their usage (Nillers knows about what im talking and Lou also). At least, I dont want to have any troubles with EA, and also no troubles with BI and also I dont want to make any troubles for BI, and that is for me important. If people think they can just go with "Fair Use", I dont know..

faint nacelle
#

One can always contact the respective IP holder to get solid permission/understanding on what they allow and don't allow. like what Sentry did with his mod. Or consult a proper IP lawyer when thinking of using someone else's IP for whatever. Knowing ones rights is good but assuming one knows what you can do by few wiki articles and such can be risky.

#

@sonic moss what kind of a license was attached to the mod and where are they uploaded to?

sonic moss
#

No real license. The PBOs were part of the There is Only War mod and have been removed from the steam workshop by my request in the recent update because I will upload these files in my own mod. An arma 3 unit apparently had a backup of these files and uploaded them to their own website which is being dowloaded by hundreds of people with out my permission

#

@faint nacelle

faint nacelle
#

Ah. Well if no license, then strictest possible rules apply. You can request their service provider to remove them.

sonic moss
#

Great, thanks for the help ๐Ÿ

#

I will do that then

faint nacelle
#

I assume they are not open for civil discussion about that?

sonic moss
#

They have not even asked me about reuploading my files

#

And they're the type of people to come up with some legal jargon to cover their asses, anyways i'm gonna go deal with that then

#

thanks alot

faint nacelle
#

Mod maker makes nice stuff to play with => "community" pays back by throwing flaming poop bags at the mod maker because "I just want to"

sonic moss
#

In the end, people just want more shit to play with, they don't care where it comes from

#

sad

zealous ledge
#

isnt the 700th Rimmys Group?

sonic moss
#

Nope

zealous ledge
#

ah yeah. hes the Cadian XXth. 700th is a different group.

sonic moss
#

This is what I have to spend my time with, god damnit I just wanna mod

sonic moss
#

It were some vehicles and character models I have made for the There is Only War mod which I am no longer part of. The issue has been resolved, I have talked with them.

faint nacelle
#

@ember lintel mods are not covered by "fair use" (commentary, search engines, criticism, parody, news reporting, research, and scholarship)

#

well I suppose you could make a parody mod

#

but so far none of the mods using established IP are not doing that

#

yes, but no one has done so. So Id advice not claiming "fair use" makes IP use legit.

#

๐Ÿ‘

manic laurel
#

as already stated by HG here, Fair Use is not just stating "Fair Use!" and you're magically good (of course).
Fair Use is covered on the IP wiki page and states its limits (like personal use) :slight_smile:

manic laurel
#

don't worry (although reading that first message made me go "huh?!"), I did read your later message so no problem here.
This last message of mine is a recap for visitors of this channel

chilly silo
#

But its not. Fair use only applies when its small parts of protected works for personal use. In the context of Arma mods, Fair use is almost impossible to apply. And it ceases to be applicable when it leaves your own hard drive.

#

What part is "huh"?

manic laurel
#

we cleared that up some messages ago I suppose ^^

#

huh, no

#

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property#Fair_Use

"Fair Use" is very often called as the ideal line of defense regarding copyright infringement.
Alas for its subscribers, Fair Use most likely means allowed for research and educational purpose, under which gaming/modding does not fall. It is also a personal, non-commercial "default license" that cannot cover a mod team nor Steam distribution of such work.

#

yep, parody

#

but parody has to be justified, and is not applicable to a modset ๐Ÿ™‚

#

if you see a Benny Hill mod making fun of the game, sure
releasing a fully-functional mod, noppity nope

#

so Fair Use cannot be used as a "cover" for a mod, only a mod dedicated as a parody
you said it in a way that could be understood as "anyone could use Fair Use for anything", which is not the case, obviously

#

Works of fair use can be distributed publicly
yet this โ†‘ sounded otherwise, so we better clarify all this well

#

tru

#

okay well, please refrain from taking bits of sentence out of context to try and make Fair Use look like it's the answer to everything. It is not.
I don't debunk you particularly, I want to have a clear rule around here. That's it.

#

which

People can indeed "just go" with fair use, it's protected use and is legal.
and
Works of fair use can be distributed publicly
were NOT saying

unlike

claiming fair use doesnt indicate fair use, so yeah, obviously.
I wasnt at all advocating people to falsely claim fair use.

#

Since we agree to agree, can we then stop? for the channel clarity and sanity, thanks

#

I could presume that's what you hoped for
yeah, I feed on bans. you got me ๐Ÿ˜„ bye

somber lily
#

Wait so i can make a pokemon/simpsons/familyguy mod for arma3 and they can't say anything because its a parody?

chilly silo
#

You are missing the context too. Fair use cannot be used in isolation either. It is weighed as part of the a larger context. If you release a (lets say Star Wars) mod into a game that competes with an already established Licensed game ie mod for Arma vs Star Wars Battlefront, Fair use cannot apply. As in the case of Star Wars the IP holder already reserves all rights. But you release a mod - fair use or not - that uses their IP (The star wars universe is probably the most legally protected story in history) and undermines one of their licenses. You don't really have a legal leg to stand on.

As Lou has repeatedly said. There is no support or defence under fair use the moment you release anything that impacts on their business. Either financially or just in terms of reputation.

Fair use was not written into law to be an excuse. Just a possible defence. Even the Parody clause wouldn't hold up if you release anything that impacts on their finances even if you make the Storm-troopers pink and yell "owie" when they die. Context is everything in Fair Use and in this context none of the Fair use justifications would be considered.

manic laurel
#

see, @ember lintel? that's precisely why I want clear sentences.

#

nothing personal against you or anything, just clear sentences so people don't think they can circumvent laws then get in trouble.

chilly silo
somber lily
#

So how do other mod devs get away with it?

manic laurel
#

they ask for permission to the IP holder.

somber lily
#

Like the 40k, star wars and the countless other mods baised on movies and books.

manic laurel
#

Star Wars mods are illegal, that's for sure

#

why they get taken down regularly

somber lily
#

I really can't see games workshop giving thier ip to a compitent dev.

#

But thanks for clearing this up for me.

chilly silo
#

Either too small for the IP holder to notice or the IP holder has weighed the cost/benefit as not being worth it.

I was talking to a guy that works for Games Workshop last week. He said, if a mod were to get a following large enough for the office to notice it, they would shut it down. or if a License holder complained they would start legal action but honestly most of the time they simply are not aware of the mod so don't know to take action.

somber lily
#

Gross.

#

Well i'm not going to be buying any more miniatures lmao.

chilly silo
#

Buy from the legit sources no issue. ๐Ÿ˜‰

#

Buy from the rip-off makers in China, you are only hurting Games workshop and if you are a fan, then potentially jeopardising the future of the company. I know that sounds extreme but small issues mount up and eventually can be what breaks a company.

somber lily
#

Lmao i have NO loyalilty to games workshop after they raised the prices of models in my area. But none the less thank you both for you advices.

soft egret
#

People don't tend to pay attention, or only pay attention to find the thing they are looking for.
They will search exactly for, and will find your statement saying that "fair use can be applied" and say "I'll apply fair use, I read on the official Arma discord that it's a thing i can do"

rustic copper
#

Keep in mind that "Fair Use" only applies to copyright, NOT to Intellectual Property, Trademarks, Patents, or anything else.
And a parody falls under Fair Use, correct, whoever just saying it's a parody does not cut it... It must be clear that it is not related in any way to the original content; so names must be different, it must look different, etc. but may sound/look similar enough for people to understand what the parody is about.

eg. if I would make yellow blocky units in Arma it could fall under a parody of Lego. If I make them look exactly like Lego figures, call them Lego figures (or any other official term) and promote it as a Lego mod, it's not a parody anymore and simply a breach of all kind of laws...

fossil basalt
#

This is what happens when you "give someone an inch".

#

(its an idiom, look it up)

manic laurel
edgy coralBOT
dull moon
#

๐Ÿค” huh?

manic laurel
#

nothing, carry on!

dull moon
#

but... my popcorn...?
sad crunching noise

crystal talon
#

I wonder how long the ban list is at this point

#

seems like this stuff just repeats itself once or twice a week, and always ends the same way

manic laurel
#

yep
let's make things clear for the next ones:
trying to find a potential eventual maybe loophole to justify breaking the law ("""Fair Use""" claim included) will end up in a ban.
Please refer to https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property for actual definitions.

Please, mind that this does not prevent you from asking details/information/direction to the community.

Intellectual Property
fossil basalt
#

I wonder how long the ban list is at this point
seems like this stuff just repeats itself once or twice a week, and always ends the same way

@crystal talon It is quite long. Idiots without a clue think they can drop a few keywords that they learned on Google 10 minutes prior to excuse their illicit behaviour. They frequently omit specific details like "personal use only". Or sadly, more frequently, claim that their project is specifically for personal use only, then say that its for use in public servers. As they say, you can't cure stupid.

crystal talon
#

showed a bunch of RHS path files when I was looking around for CUP reuploads

fallen sandal
#

Is that not just because it contains RHS patches? @crystal talon

#

nevermind it has rhs itself lol

echo orchid
urban nexus
echo orchid
#

@urban nexus yes, mirrored

humble cypress
#

Don't know is this the right place, but isit legal to unbinarize arma 3 animation .rtms and edit them?

manic laurel
#

(unless specifically allowed by BI ofc)

brisk nexus
#

What's the legality of me buying a P3D made with arma toolbox? (technically not using BI Tools right?)

vivid wave
#

It uses, so illegal

brisk nexus
#

Just being curious, what BI Tool does it use?

rustic copper
#

Object Builder

brisk nexus
#

I'm not trying to get around anything btw, just want to have more knowledge on this

rustic copper
#

or O2 as it used to be called (which you need to set a path to in ArmaToolbox)

brisk nexus
vivid wave
#

Basically buy/sell Arma ready thing is completely illegal, as you already know

brisk nexus
#

thought it was a completely independent app

brisk nexus
#

would arma ready be only it being a p3d or would selling an "arma ready" fbx/obj/blend file also be illegal

rustic copper
#

"arma ready" is completely fine, since it doesn't require any BI Tools to make

#

so the moment it's in a format by BI (.p3d, .paa, etc) it's not allowed anymore

faint nacelle
#

little grey area since it needs arma tools to check it works

#

*has never been allowed

#

@rustic copper

brisk nexus
#

so just to be clear, selling a blend file with all the config, model.cfg and textures in png and simply having the other person use obj/arma toolbox to import would be legal right

faint nacelle
#

"not trying to get around anything" ๐Ÿ˜›

#

ah you make life models

brisk nexus
#

I'm just having a discussion with some developer friends

vivid wave
#

It should. Bohemians can't throw you into a jail because of it I'm sure

#

Unless they update the EULA

brisk nexus
#

Alrighty that clears a lot of things up, thanks

strong sundial
#

Is there no issues with taking a game mode and adding my name to list of credits for creators? For example i have the BMR master files and add a ton of new features and new maps to play on also new factions to play as and versus. I would of course still leave the original credits in the file too as its not my game mode.

i new to mission creation/editing so want to make sure ill be fine ๐Ÿ™‚

manic laurel
earnest mirage
#

@manic laurel is there any issue with for ex, making a seperate version of that gamemode, in for example RHS, if its a vanilla mode like Escape altis

#

?

#

My wording isnt the bes

#

best*

#

let me rephrase that

#

Is ist ok, if i take a vanilla gamemode like escape altis

#

and rework it to be with for example RHS

crystal talon
#

using BI scripts and configs should be fine

#

So yeah, modifying the BI Escape missions to use RHS, or porting them to different terrains, should all be fine.

manic laurel
earnest mirage
#

thx

faint nacelle
#

@crystal talon no.

crystal talon
#

Want to clarify it on the IP page

manic laurel
#

to be fair, it is no by default until proven otherwise ๐Ÿ˜‹ (but I got your question don't worry)

faint nacelle
#

Bethesda license prohibits it

crystal talon
#

Do you know where I can find the license?

#

their website is a mess

faint nacelle
#

Or we'll the use of the assets at least, which that mod does

#

Can't remember exactly where it was, but zenimax and Bethesda got licence faq type pages

crystal talon
#

I guess part 3, Limited License to Use covers that.

You may not (a) distribute, publicly perform or display, sell, transmit, publish, edit, reproduce, sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer any Game, Software, and/or Content, including without limitation any access keys; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works based upon any Services; (d) otherwise access, receive, play or use any Services except as expressly provided in these Terms of Service; (e) copy or download any Software or Content unless the Content is a Game Mod available for download from a ZeniMax website or is Downloadable Content (other than Virtual Currency) or You are otherwise expressly authorized to do so in writing by ZeniMax; and/or (f) remove, obscure, or alter copyright, patent, trademark, or other proprietary rights notices affixed to any Services. Any commercial use or play of a Service (including but not limited to eSports and multiplayer video game competitions) is prohibited absent written permission by an authorized representative of ZeniMax.

#

someone correct me on that

faint nacelle
#

Ye that's the one I was thinking of

#

It forbids all use of material as far as I can understand

#

Which is the typical approach of most developers

crystal talon
#

Yeah, I'll add it to the page

manic laurel
crystal talon
atomic shuttle
manic laurel
#

yeah, but whose license is that?

atomic shuttle
#

dont know if thats how it works, is it not down to the developer to decide which of their own assets created by them can be used

faint nacelle
#

zenimax owns both

atomic shuttle
#

obsidian is owned by microsoft

#

is it not?

faint nacelle
#

and Im quite certain youll find the same clauses in all of their licenses

#

bethesda owns fallout franchise as far as I know

#

dunno if microsofts deal for Bethesda is yet done

manic laurel
#

game developer โ†’ prevents from using assets
license owner โ†’ prevents from using the world/environment

faint nacelle
#

from Fallout 4 EULA on Steam

#

Id wager same applies to older titles as its is quite common

#

another problem rises from the fact that the mod team is making money from the project

#

sure not a lot

#

but its more than 0

#

ah MS bought zenimax

#

and bethesda is part of zenimax

#

so zenimax license should apply

#

MS -> Zenimax -> Bethesda -> fallout 3+

#

@atomic shuttle if you got any better info please do share

scarlet patrol
faint nacelle
#

mods have separate paragraph if I recall right

#

as in game mods for fallout games

#

and how the content can be used in that

#

but taking the content out of the game and putting it into another game I dont believe is allowed

#

which should be quite clear and reasonable

#

as well as how the modding works

#

do read the zenimax eula if you want clear text

#

Im not a legal counsel

vivid scarab
#

@faint nacelle On the Microsoft / ZeniMax thing.

#

The actual deal isn't being signed off in full until July this year, iirc.

#

So ZeniMax's current rules still apply, as opposed to Microsoft's, in so far as what you can / can't do with the property.

#

Which is obviously irrelevant when it comes down to individual assets, and is more to do with how you create content that draws from said IP.

wheat wave
earnest mirage
#

there is this icon, with a flag

#

its called "report"

manic laurel
arctic lily
#

Is SWOP okay or not okay?

soft egret
#

not okay

arctic lily
#

Itโ€™s been uploaded to the workshop... in 2017

dull moon
#

doesn't make it right tho

arctic lily
#

Definitely. 2017 and itโ€™s still up? Noice

wheat wave
marble widget
#

Next Star Wars Mod

rapid cypress
cinder ridge
faint nacelle
#

probs not

fluid elbow
#

I see, they got the SWOP Mod now on ModDB ๐Ÿค”

tulip nexus
keen trout
#

wtf ๐Ÿ˜›

blissful veldt
#

Interesting. Until now I've only seen RHS assets being ripped and ported to GTA, not the other way around

rapid cypress
#

There was a guy recently that ported some police clothes iirc

fluid elbow
#

but honestly, he did it well detailed and no roadway bugs ^^

faint nacelle
#

get that to work with AI

#

ha

#

hahaha

fluid elbow
#

yeah this will be horrible ofcourse. but getting this driveable all together, adding all geometries, adding different sounds where you walk etc.. in some way, he did a great job. just to port if from GTA V isnt a good option ^^

lilac tree
#

I think the only reason SWOP is still up is because of their disclaimer

# DISCLAMER:
This mod is an unofficial resource and is in no way linked to Lucasfilm ltd, the Walt Disney company, Electronic Arts inc. or Twentieth Century Fox. The "Star Wars" brand and all the intellectual content of this mod is based on the property of "The Walt Disney Company" and the use of which is exclusive for non-profit purpose.

Star Wars copyright 1977 Twentieth Century Fox film corporation. All rights reserved. tm & copyright 1977 Lucasfilm ltd. Star Wars logo and all related characters, names and indicts are trademarks of & copyright 2012 Lucasfilm ltd. All rights reserved., or their respective trademark and copyright holders.

All the computer programs and software are provided "as is" without warranty of any kind. We make no warranties, express or implied, that they are free of error, or are consistent with any particular standard of merchantability, or that they will meet your requirements for any particular application. They should not be relied on for solving a problem whose incorrect solution could result in injury to a person or loss of property. If you do use them in such a manner, it is at your own risk. The author and publisher disclaim all liability for direct, indirect, or consequential damages resulting from your use of the programs.
scarlet patrol
#

that holds no legal value

manic laurel
proper fulcrum
rapid cypress
scarlet patrol
manic laurel
#

it's like stealing a car and saying "this vehicle is provided 'as is' and is in no way related to the Ford Sales department - use at your own risk"
cool story bro, but you are still coming with us

rapid cypress
proper fulcrum
#

Yes but in this case he's been driving the car from the Ford Sales dept for 2 years and the cops just can't catch up

#

๐Ÿ˜†

manic laurel
#

that's most likely the case, it's not the text that is protecting them ๐Ÿ˜„

rapid cypress
#

Welp guess we just gotta hope that the cops can get a new car and speed up at some point blobdoggoshruggoogly

wanton badger
#

I gotta ask, i SWOP the only one by taking their assets or is all starwars related content for Arma disallowed?

earnest mirage
#

All

hasty gale
#

stealing assets is another bad thing on top of the ip violation

royal charm
#

Disney doesn't allow groups to use their themes, models, characters, imagery, etc for the Star Wars universe, even in not-for-profit gaming. With that said, it seems like the bigger "star-sims" make a ton of profit. I recall last year seeing one of their Patreons being ~$1000 / month.

In all likelihood, Disney just doesn't care enough to enforce it against these groups (they're a tiny blip in the world of IP infringement as far as Disney is concerned), but that doesn't make it any less illegal.

BI and Steam typically don't enforce the IP of others (like Disney) unless the "others" dispute it. If that were the case, more than half the A3 Steam Workshop could be taken down ๐Ÿ˜†

faint nacelle
#

Every IP infringement is equally dangerous for the IP holders rights as far as I know. But it is indeed up to Disney to clean up. What we don't do is endorse it.

chilly silo
scarlet patrol
#

can't wait when I'll be 70 years old to be able to play star wars mods on other games

dull moon
#

You can now. Just buy a license ๐Ÿคฃ

low cradle
#

This channel should be changed to star wars ip violations

manic laurel
rustic copper
#

if they can do it, why can't we?
and not only by LifeRP and SW communities...

sweet geyser
#

Hello everyone, recently i have realise a "mate" who have benn uploading mods (pbo files), which already exist to the workshop and changing the author. Iยดm not sure if this is the correct site to report this, but someone told me that so there it goes

faint nacelle
#

this would be it yeah

sweet geyser
#

Ok so the person who iยดm talking about, has taken lots of mods like all the CUPยดs, RHSยดs, FFAA, by mention only a few. And he has reupload then by puting himself as the author.
Moreover he told everyone his the responsible of most of the modยดs developement, and also he use this mods to attract people to his clan.

#

These mods are on the workshop but are only visible to the clanยดs members

#

Anyway these mods are parallel versions to the oficial ones and the author of these versions is changed

soft egret
#

just post the link to it

#

and the CUP/RHS/FFAA people will take care of it

sweet geyser
#

Youยดll cant see it cause is hiden visivility

#

only added people (members of the clan) can see

#

This is the account which upload the mods

#

Thank and sorry for inconvenience

sweet geyser
#

I forget mention it before but he change the author from all the workshop missions that we use to play every weekends, and the maps that we used to use, too

manic laurel
sweet geyser
#

Yes, if you want i can share my screen and show you the worckshop folder with all the PBOs

#

and itยดs workshop page

sweet geyser
#

anyway, i've a video where i show all de mods they have upload parallel to the official ones. I also show how those mods have the same pbo files than the oficials and the mod.cpp file, where they have put another author insted of the real ones.

#

to who i have to send it to?

#

/where

sweet geyser
manic laurel
#

(sorry, I cannot deal with it as of right now; most likely tomorrow if someone else didn't before)

sweet geyser
#

and now the videos

manic laurel
#

you can flag all his reuploads (by clicking the little flag icon) and tell Steam it's a reupload, and paste the original's URL

sweet geyser
#

Thank you very much, this is very usefull

outer hamlet
scarlet patrol
outer hamlet
#

No, thats why I am asking

scarlet patrol
#

checked with the workshop crawler but it doesn't seem to be working rn

manic laurel
somber cliff
#

I mean..

#

If/When this mod gets taken down reupload it bois. They can't DMCA everyone lol..

soft egret
#

ugh that guy again. Its a known name, banned everywhere

#

@echo orchid ^

echo orchid
#

can someone check the files please no access to pc for the next 2 days

#

and yes i can dmca everyone

manic laurel
slow agate
rough ivy
#

It's mostly VSM stuff mixed in with RHS and a few other mods.

#

Sabre's SOTG uniforms in there too.

spare osprey
#

โ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅ Gold squadron, โ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅ USP, โ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅ RHS, โ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅ โ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅ studios, โ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅโ™ฅ PUFU. Spineless creatures.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2208357150

#

Description from their other mod

faint nacelle
#

this someone whos been dmcad recently?

#

though the salt will keep roads open in this winter time nicely

echo orchid
echo orchid
echo orchid
rapid cypress
#

Ah good old Garry's Mod, where IP/Copyright/.. apparently dont exist

vivid wave
#

lmao

rapid cypress
#

Or Garry's Mod, aka the black hole of infringements heh

echo orchid
soft egret
#

Please make sure to send them to the E-Mail

manic laurel
#

flagged'em all

runic wraith
carmine folio
#

Is TFL the one with drama a few months ago?

echo orchid
#

it is wasnโ€™t usp who filled the dmca

#

it was rhs btw

#

will deal with that

echo orchid
#

also these sort of groups cannot grasp the simple fact that property exists, and ripping and using ripped content is theft

sinful pivot
#

that's like saying it's not theft if I let someone use my car, and they never returned it

worn sleet
#

LOL you talk about ethics then say crap like that ๐Ÿ˜‚

faint nacelle
#

you are permitted to download and use mods according to the licences attached to them

sinful pivot
#

Mate, either you've got some seriously skewed world views or you're too young to know better, I also don't understand how taking something that someone else has made and claiming it your own is ethical

lone basin
#

Because you claim it is by uploading to Steam

faint nacelle
#

if it goes against the license it comes with then it is

#

the maker is the victim

#

you are not the maker, you dont get to make a call

#

I guess we wont see you for long here anymore then

lone basin
#

Law is what matters here

faint nacelle
#

if you support stealing then those people usually do get shown the door

#

well I get the feeling you dont want to either

#

you "just want to do what you want to do"

sinful pivot
#

"No officer, I was Travelling"

dull moon
#

the germans followed a "different ethics" once too..."

#

ยฏ_(ใƒ„)_/ยฏ

faint nacelle
#

no you think only of yourself

#

ok so if you really want to know, by uploading something to Steam workshop you claim ownership of the thing you upload

#

which in this case is therft of intellectial property

dull moon
#

I don't see how using a mod in a pack without claiming the mod was made by me would be theft of any kind.

That's just using a product you were allowed to get for free.

Like how you can usually do whatever you like with programs you download.
if the license prohibits redistribution outside the authors channels of choice, it's illegal. period.

sinful pivot
#

If you made something, and started giving it away for free, would you like if someone came, took half of your stock and started giving it away himself? It doesn't matter if it's free that's just being rude

faint nacelle
#

you cant go inventing your own rules in a sosiecty

#

you are doing that on your own mate.

worn sleet
#

You're getting yourself there

faint nacelle
#

then you dont have to be part of this one

sinful pivot
#

And that's what we do on the steam workshop, we could be uploading to armaholic or modb where there is no restriction, but instead we're using Steam where we are claiming to have made it ourselves and don't want other people using it

dull moon
worn sleet
#

You can't even follow simple licences

faint nacelle
#

hes just here to stirr up a fight

#

let it be, not worth it

sinful pivot
#

If you don't want to follow the laws here, I hear that there are some un-inhabited islands you can live on where you are free to dictate what's right and wrong

dull moon
#

No u, I don't follow laws without thought lol
I actually think for myself.
as a person that works in an industry that is tightly related to IP and copyright for many years now, i can say: you are full of ๐Ÿ’ฉ

worn sleet
#

To the nuthouse?

reef tree
#

do i hear the sound of a rail gun warming up?

worn sleet
#

Perhaps not, but you certainly believe you're entitled to something someone else made, which last I checked had a licence which states what you can and can't do. But what do I know.. I just read the readme

dull moon
#

why you do it then?

#

digging?

worn sleet
#

Comes naturally for some

dull moon
#

no, your grave

faint nacelle
#

Thats all good then. We believe in something else. Theres no point in continuing, the man has stated his views and he wont budge on them.

worn sleet
#

God I want to insert the risitas laugh gif here right now ๐Ÿคฃ

#

No, just you. We tried to educate you and you refused it

#

Did I say convert?

dull moon
#

so what? rules are rules, licenses have a meaning, and opinions don't overthrow that

worn sleet
#

So you know what you can and can't do and what is legal

#

But it's ok, you can think what you like, doesn't make it right

dull moon
#

you'd we a perfect candidate for "the purge"

worn sleet
#

See how those "ethics" work for you in the real world

dull moon
#

mine work fine

#

cool beans

#

all you fight is your keyboard

#

it does... thats the definition of it

sinful pivot
#

"Tyrannical Practices" aka, making sure that the bloke who made the mod is protected to distribute as he wants and doesn't get dicked by everyone

worn sleet
#

Oh no, someone stood up to me and my crappy ethics, look i'm being oppressed, this is so tyrannical. Sound familiar?

dull moon
#

what you are

#

you're not

worn sleet
#

You made yourself one

dull moon
#

same to you

#

better: read

#

a law book for example

worn sleet
#

Many things

dull moon
#

cool

worn sleet
#

Good for you

#

Hahahahahahahahhaahahahahaa

sinful pivot
#

Say hi to the jailcell for me when you decide to take that car that's just there unlocked, I mean, laws don't apply to you

worn sleet
#

Seriously that is the most dense comeback I've ever heard for that

dull moon
#

so... a keyboardwarrior aftrer all then?

#

like a real KW

#

think

#

just a bit

#

you'll get it

worn sleet
#

You need to get a grip on what you think standing up to someone is

dull moon
#

oh... you know of google?

#

use it for something like... reading up on copyright

sinful pivot
#

I mean, it kind of is, Standing up for yourself is planting your position and trying to change someone's decision on something

worn sleet
#

No way did you just quote "free dictionary" LMAO

dull moon
#

ROFL

worn sleet
#

It matters

#

no, you should so you can learn

dull moon
#

anyway.... i got more productive and valuable things to do... like filing DMCAs or so...
bye

worn sleet
#

Hahahahahahahahahahaha nooooo f in way

dull moon
#

you are indeed

worn sleet
#

What's the difference between defiance and stupid?

#

Stupid can't help it

dull moon
#

all i hear is you nagging... exactly what a karen does

worn sleet
#

Not my fault I fit in

dull moon
#

uhm... did you just forget the last 10ish minutes?
lol

worn sleet
#

Wrong again bucko, resources were posted to educate you

dull moon
#

lying about what?

worn sleet
#

When have we lied?

#

Yes, you are

#

๐Ÿคฃ

dull moon
#

lol

worn sleet
#

I can't ๐Ÿ˜‚ I'm off

dull moon
#

whatever... i'm hungry and want some Leberkรคssemmeln

worn sleet
#

i won't cry for you

worn sleet
dull moon
#

nope, all mine ๐Ÿ˜„

worn sleet
#

At no point have I been offended

dull moon
#

leberkรคs is holy

worn sleet
#

I am aware

#

Now hand it over ๐Ÿ”ซ

dull moon
#

you can take it from my cold dead hands

#

๐Ÿ˜„

worn sleet
#

That can be arranged ๐Ÿ˜‚

dull moon
#

gimme a minute... need to eat my leberkรคs first ๐Ÿ˜‰

#

ok, leberkรคs is eaten... what was it about cold dead hands again?

worn sleet
#

I hate you now

dull moon
#

good

#

๐Ÿ˜„

worn sleet
#

I'll go get some weisswurst and not share

dull moon
#

i'd be disappointed if you got weisswurst and share them

#

tztztz

worn sleet
#

Valid

dull moon
#

but only with a good brezel and senf ofc!

worn sleet
#

Senf has to be super spicy though

dull moon
#

not for weisswurst. it must be the sweet senf

worn sleet
#

It should but I don't like it sweet ๐Ÿ˜‚

dull moon
#

urgh.... costumer

#

(kostverรคchter)

worn sleet
#

Perhaps, or maybe I'm just weird, either way I don't care I'll eat it however I damn well please ๐Ÿคฃ

dull moon
#

oh, so you are not a keyboard worrier, but a food worrier... got a strong opinion, huh?

worn sleet
#

not really, i just know what I like. Sweet stuff is meh, take it or leave it

dull moon
#

fighting against common rules about weisswurst and sรผรŸer senf?

#

tztztz

worn sleet
#

LOL Call it British entitlement ๐Ÿคฃ

dull moon
#

so you're standing up for those who can not fight for themselves to eat pickles and nutella? ๐Ÿ˜‰

#

damn... gotta stop that now before i get dragged too far into trolling ๐Ÿ˜„

worn sleet
#

Who does that? Are they out in public? Do I need to get a knoife licence?

dull moon
#

they are in public, but hidden in fear of oppression ๐Ÿ˜„

#

gotta go now, laterz

worn sleet
#

Later

gusty isle
#

yeah, I know it could have been more, but technically he didn't do it

echo orchid
#

what did i miss...

manic laurel
# echo orchid what did i miss...

nothing worth it really. just a "free soul" deciding "laws don't apply to him", "thinks by himself", "teach controversy", "flowers in the hair" nah sorry not that last one

echo orchid
#

ahh, there are quite a bunch of people that have that sort of mentality

#

envy on gmod and other games where this sort of sheet goes

crystal talon
#

Would be a wonderful sight if EA and/or disney were to strike everything there

echo orchid
#

it isnโ€™t just about that anymore. several years ago people were using ripped content from various other games, available on the now defunct facepunch or similar