ip_rights_violations

[midnight compass]

Seems people fail to read this in front of it

[paper prawn]

Not the pages. That has useful information on pre-Reforger monetization of tools assets/non-tools assets. Just the bit on third-party

[fluid elbow]

wouldnt be good i think its useful at all

[midnight compass]

The issue is what I pointed out.

[fluid elbow]

i did the effort to make it clear Command & Conquer IP is allowed and its not like ssems to be tolerated. its accepted

[midnight compass]

I mentioned what i think, not what I will do 😅

[paper prawn]

In fact Lou made sure to not change any third party information on those pages unless the community provided hard evidence. Over the years there have been pages of discussions in these channels asking questions, people going to the sources and verification happening or not happening. As a recent example the changes to the rules on STALKER

[umbral radish]

right so if someone would get an email saying it's cool from Microsoft then all the teams would be good?

[fluid elbow]

sure. i had talks with Lou and Nillers about the whole stuff and also with one of EA

also here is the actual stuff (could be added to Wiki Link to actualize)
https://www.ea.com/games/command-and-conquer/modding-faq

also EA C&C section does welcome mods as long these are not for commercial use etc.

[midnight compass]

No, we have to confirm it ourselves.

In this case the issue is on how it relates to us.

[umbral radish]

Right so why haven't you guys reached out yet? a lot of people are here to play Halo on Arma becasue it is as close to lore as you can get it

[midnight compass]

Because it is not part of our project to get that permission or intent to add such content.

[paper prawn]

Also, regarding specifically that biki page, Lou is pretty much the only person that changes it 😉

[midnight compass]

There are no plans to ask for such a thing as of now.

[fluid elbow]

indeed he did it as far as i know, he added C&C at that time some years ago

[midnight compass]

That does not mean it is official 😉

[ruby halo]

didnt we get a email from them last year or the year befor

[midnight compass]

For things to be official, it has to be outside of community handled portals

[fluid elbow]

how so? i mean link ive posted makes it clear is this official?

[umbral radish]

WELP 2 years of work down the drain

[midnight compass]

For something to be an official page from us, it has to be on non community handled portals.

(Things the community can't modify and that is owned/handled purely by us)

For example, the Arma Platform Dev Hub.

[fluid elbow]

ah got it

[paper prawn]

I am permissioned to edit in biki, but I cannot edit that page btw...

[midnight compass]

Yes, but that is not the point.

[acoustic lion]

Well that's 2 years down the drain

[midnight compass]

That page is curated by the community.

Not by us directly. As you have seen, Lou modifies it based on what people seem to have shown.

It's locked so that people do not add random stuff

[ruby halo]

what happen to all the emails from a few years ago when we was fighting about be bethesda and halo stuff people got emails

[bright sand]

from what I'm reading halo mods are ok based on halo guidelines as long as we dont use 343 or bungie assets

[fluid elbow]

but Lou did this extra to make sure who is allowed to do that and who is not allowed to do this and i had to contact EA to make sure im allowed to do Tiberian Genesis with EA's IP of C&C Tiberian Sun, had to clear that stuff even with Nillers and Lou together to make it there on the Wiki page.. so i dont understand why this is not as official, i mean only BI is allowed to edit this page and the effort to contact EA was for this at all

[midnight compass]

#ip_rights_violations message

[fluid elbow]

not only for the wiki page also to keep my ass clean

[midnight compass]

We can try to ask, but beware that it is very RARE for BIG companies to allow their IPs to be used in mods on recent platforms.

Specially if they have competing or active IP under the same platform.

[wind fractal]

We are not asking BI to ask for permission to use the assets from the games themselves...
We just want to have permission to create our own assets inspired by the games, as we have been doing.

[umbral radish]

💀 you just told me no

[midnight compass]

I did not say we will ask.

[acoustic lion]

Please with all due respect make up your mind

[bright sand]

so my mod, i don't make money off of, and don't use actual halo assets so from their free use policy as long as i credit the studio for the universe and reference of assets I should be good to make the mod with no issues

[midnight compass]

#ip_rights_violations message

[fluid elbow]

im doing Tiberian Genesis since 2004 OFP time and i can also give you EA contact of C&C section so you can ask, you can PM me for contact if you want. cause you need anyway to get into the C&C section cause EA distributes a lot of game sections

[bright sand]

its not game content though is my point. the free use thing they have says i can as long as its not game assets. and i don't use game assets

[wind fractal]

^ None of us are stealing assets.
We are hand making our own stuff.

[midnight compass]

Beware that also narrative/lore can be an issue.

(Not trying to make issues here btw, just informing you)

[bright sand]

in the free use doc they got its not an issue

[midnight compass]

I said CAN.

So that you check to be sure, also make sure that does not fall into the same that IS an issue on our side.

As that falls as their content too

Which is what is been refered on the page linked before.

The issue here is the workshop.

[bright sand]

well what im reading, the lore and universe is free use as long as we dont steal assets or game files

[midnight compass]

If you do it privately out of it, then according to that agreement it should be fine.

Then at that point is only your problem.

[slender jay]

I mean you can't use any narrative or lore for Arma Reforger as you don't use that stuff to make Halo Mods on reforge only make armours and weapons inspired by the Halo Style.

[bright sand]

well its not even my issue, its a non issue is my point

[lime locust]

What he means is that you'd have to make your own game

[slender jay]

this is basically you guys going "Oh yeah just dont make a Halo Lore based mod. you can make a mod inspired by the style just don't make it anything to do with the lore."

[bright sand]

well then i think we are all good? my stuff isn't really lore set or anything, its just inspired by halo, so is that ok?

[crude trail]

nothing ever happens

[umbral radish]

Halo has been officially branded a no no

[lime locust]

But if it looks too much like the originals, then it's still a no no

[bright sand]

well i guess its good i never fully followed the halo stuff super hard

[lime locust]

Your falcon and warthogs are almost direct copies along with your ODST stuff from what I remember, so those would need serious changes

[bright sand]

didn't frontier already settle that?

[lime locust]

I'm saying they are unmistakably Halo so they would need to be changed to not look like they're from Halo

[slender jay]

if you want an Example of its allowed Chokepoint Games and the Halo Mod for Sins of a Solar Empire Rebellion which they used assets from for HALO Infinite, 343 went to a Mod team and got assets from a Mod for a Triple A Game!

[bright sand]

yeah, there was already a lawsuit that went up to the federal court that said look alkies are good as long as i don't pair my work with the ability to make money off my work its free to use under parody laws and stuff

[lime locust]

🤔 sources?

[bright sand]

one sec

[slender jay]

from legal sources, and as we don't deprive the studio's of money, attention, etc..

[bright sand]

this just reiterates my point, using this law and the free use agreement of halo we are fine

[slender jay]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/parody the Source of my Screenshot

[faint nacelle]

mods are not parody

[bright sand]

C@A of Bethesda to a mod team working on a mod in fallout 4, the case just defined the use of ripping assets and using base game sound effects as the only things they couldn't do

[faint nacelle]

space balls is a star wars parody

for example

[slender sorrel]

Damn literally thousands and thousands, spent on models, assets, donations, servers all for it to get fucked....

[faint nacelle]

it would be smart

if anyone not directly involved would not comment to bloat the chat

pick someone to talk for you

[bright sand]

parody doesn't only mean funny, its just your take on the content given as a side by side

[faint nacelle]

consult a lawyer if you want to do that approach

[warped shuttle]

A few others have mentioned being able to use the official A2 Chernarus data packs freely but there's also been mention of not copying the DayZ buildings/map. Is it safe to assume that starting with the unbinarized A2 Chernarus datapack and building your own map (not following Chernarus Plus) from that starting point even though most of the buildings are also used in DayZ? My understanding looking at the licensing is that is OK but it gets a little muddy because so many assets (stylistically) are shared between DayZ's Chernarus and Arma 2's Chernarus

[slender jay]

we are 3 different mod communities here.

[slender sorrel]

I'm on one of the halo modding teams

[faint nacelle]

everyone talking on top of each other leads nowhere

[bright sand]

will do already on it

[haughty island]

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/rules
For people consurned about the halo mods

[slender sorrel]

So, to clear any future drama's

What is the rules on any other IPs being created, such as halflife, kingdom come, farcry, like is anything other than original content a no go?

[jovial galleon]

what is happening

[slender sorrel]

Because uppercut for example have invested two whole years, and other teams aswell have put in hundreds of dollars and pounds for their mods, and it's all been wiped away...

It would be even more disastrous if this is done again in future with other teams who are making their own stuff inspired or copied from other games, films or otherwise

[faint nacelle]

you would have to consult the IP owner

[jagged plover]

Apparently Halo mods and other things may be taken down

[ruby swallow]

Not muddy at all. You're fine if you use assets from licensed data packages. The mod got into trouble, because it included assets that weren't licensed and only present in DayZ SA / A3 Contact.

[jovial galleon]

LITERALLY THE DAY I GET INTO THIS BY THE WAY 😭

[sweet wing]

What if you developed the mods and all assests and they just look halo ish

[bright sand]

this says we can, all the violations of the rights holder violate BI TOS so if you do one you do both. so your mod would be taken down anyway.

[faint nacelle]

for everyone dropping in just now. read the past day chat

[acoustic ermine]

this is lowkey so sad

[wispy kettle]

Okay this has come up before and Halo stuff is usually pretty. Lenient. For instance, and entire game called Branching Sickness is being worked on and is allowed to because they use all of their own custom assets and models. If you rip ANYTHING from the games you will get DMCA'd. If any of your boys were using ripped assets, that's on them.

[dull thorn]

So what about the warhammer mod and stalker and metro?

[slender sorrel]

So if we did that for halo it's all well and good? Because we already have done that... And yet here we are so....

[haughty island]

Best too look at game workshops usage rules

[bright sand]

Warhammer is a lot different as they aren't owned by the same company

[hollow salmon]

can't even remove my since i don't have access to the file no more

[dull thorn]

Games workshop is usually a no

[wispy kettle]

Well thats a differnet story, Games Workshop is notoriously anti fan project and have DMCA'd multiple fully self sourced projects in the past for no reason. It is entirely up to the copyright owner if it is considered infringement or not

[acoustic ermine]

hope they reconsider, genuinely the best non RHS mods this game had just got snapped into oblivion

[jagged plover]

Rs

[scarlet gazelle]

bro really any franchise isn’t safe

[faint nacelle]

any offtopic rambling will result in mutes.

[wispy kettle]

So is that what happened btw? A bunch of 40k mods got removed?

[bitter anchor]

It was a good run, let's not be mad cause I'm assuming there is nothing we can do to fix it. Bohemia is just covering there ass which is honestly the same thing I would be doing. Bohemia already made this amazing game for us to do whatever we want and we should continue that going forward. Halo was fun for the two or so years we had it and I'll remember it but let's discuss or think about what the future is gonna look like for at least the couple hundred or thousands of players that do play with these Halo Communities.

[runic lantern]

Halo mods got nuked\

[burnt cypress]

It's only amazing bc of the mods 🥀🥀🥀🥀

[wispy kettle]

Microcock and 343 try not to ruin the Halo ip even further (impossible)

[acoustic ermine]

poor devs man. really sucks balls this happened

[slender jay]

Yeah we have basically been told "all that money you spent" doesn't matter

[burnt cypress]

Lol imagine how many people bought the game just for the mod

[bright sand]

halo mods are good to go, we don't violate anything again

[winged bone]

Literally was downloading this shit as the news dropped lmao

[slender jay]

but they aren't telling BI themselves

[sick nova]

arma 3 Operation Trebuchet--Halo Mod--completelty legal--has nothing to do with the game being a paid game--there is no legal basis to state the mods are copyright infringment.

[slender jay]

yeah we argued all of this before

[paper prawn]

Make sure, if not already there, you forbid use on monetized servers...

[sick nova]

If you are too lazy to click the link to the Games Content Usage from microsoft.

[thorn tartan]

Anyone got a quick summary as to exactly why the halo mod got banned?

[bright sand]

they also aren't hitting BI with a suit. its unfounded fear mongering as we follow the ip holders rules

[torn spruce]

Where is that?

[slender jay]

we all do and its fucking stupid, we make basically everything our selves and then its "Oh yeah we don't care cos we have decided that we cant accept it anymore."

[faint nacelle]

this channel, scroll up

if you are new and just fan of some mod discussed here. your comments are not needed at this time

[rugged dirge]

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property

Based upon this are we also going to begin seeing the mods for STALKER and Metro be taken down?

[sick nova]

If Halo mods are illegal (which they are not) due to naming in the mod itself or design of assests than so is any mod within the game that adds any gun or item that is legally trademarked by a firearm company (IE most all modern mods)

[blazing grove]

I'm sorry but if yall are gonna do this shit on your controlled workshop give us the steam workshop back for PC we don't want no Dictator controlling our content

[bright sand]

again even the BI guy was uncertain at best, the laws are there, as long as I don't rip or make money, Microsoft isn't going to come after anyone as i follow the rules they set for the halo stuff. I'm going to continue as normal as one of my guys reach out to someone who does this type of law as a job, then send the report here once its done

[faint nacelle]

btw BI has full control of their workshop in the end.

they make the final call

so when you make your case

make it constructively

[slender sorrel]

I'm confused, because when i asked about recreating stuff from other games and shows, i was told we'd need to get an IP, We, as in just us would need to get, and it's all good to go, but then we do that for halo, and suddenly you guys at bohemia need to do it, not us, so who is to say we get permission from an IP to make a mod with their designs, names, lore etc and then a year later you say, you have to take your mod down, unless we at bohemia get written approval regarding the IP,

Where's the line between, we need to get permission, and you guys need to get permission, because otherwise there's no security for anyone's mods

[mossy meadow]

I’m gonna wait for a full public statement because I believe the BI legal team will have fully looked into it all at that point then too.

[slender sorrel]

This here... "You'd need to consult the IP owner"

[sick nova]

It has already been written by Microsoft (the IP owner) here: https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/rules

This is already used in BI products (Arma 3) and is therefore applicable to halo mods here.

THE IP OWNER WAS CONSULTED BEFOREHAND BY OTHERS AND HAS MADE THIS STATEMENT FOR THIS EXACT PURPOSE.

[paper prawn]

For STALKER, GSC announced last year that no one could use old stuff without permission unless it existed before about summer last year and they would grandfather anything already in with approval if they made certain changes by last October. Such as having links to the old games Steam Store pages and certain legalese. New STALKER mods are forbidden unless GSC give explicit permission

[rugged dirge]

BI has no control over the mods on steam due to it being on the Steam workshop

[faint nacelle]

I would refrain from making bold statements

[blazing grove]

A3 uses third party Workshop support so could be different legally

[sick nova]

This is not a bold statement, merely a staement of fact.

[faint nacelle]

you are not making BI workshop policy

[sweet gulch]

Can anyone point me to the source of halo getting banned from the reforger workshop

[slender sorrel]

Just read up

[round summit]

It’s in the uppercut discord

[bright sand]

again, BI hasn't even made a decision

[sick nova]

Literally just read the link, it has nothing to do with third party steam workshop or not. Correct though, BI can ban what they want. It isnt a bold statement given that all I was stating was that it is FULLY LEGAL.

[blazing grove]

BI Legal it seems to be the main driving factor from what I've been reading

[sweet gulch]

Where is the official BI statement though. as far as I remember most halo mods on the reforger workshop had ripped content in them.

[rugged dirge]

https://reforger.armaplatform.com/workshop/656734D15CBEBB25-EulogySTALKERPosters

So mods such as these that are very new would be assumed to be against the TOS unless they got permission?

[haughty island]

There isn't an official one yet

[prime jasper]

1. they dont 2. only mod devs were told

[meager sleet]

I just don't understand why so many people are so desperate to copy other games and can't come up with something original that's also cool. Like if you love halo so much, just go play halo man! Sheesh!

[acoustic echo]

The only thing Ive seen is uppercut made a statement.

[sweet gulch]

Im pretty sure Uppercut has used ripped assets in it tho

[round summit]

They’re aren’t any good live service halo games atm

[scarlet gazelle]

they don’t? who told you that

[ruby halo]

I would refrain from using the word ripped with a mod unless proof

[jagged plover]

Wdym

[sweet gulch]

Nobody told me. I've looked at the assets myself and there is varying quality that can be seen as suspicious easily. I mod halo myself and am familiar with a majority of the assets.

[paper prawn]

Yeah, I did some of the research for an update to the 'Intellectual Property' Biki page for that. Was explained when GSC published this: https://www.gsc-game.com/guidelines/

[bright sand]

they haven't even made a decision yet

[slender jay]

what are you on about, most mods are hand made.

[blazing grove]

I am going to mention that these AAA game devs shouldn't approach other AAA game devs about eachothers mods instead what I've seen happen is the AAA Devs approach the Mod devs with LAWSUITS, if this is the normal way it's dealt with then why is BI all uppity about it.

[bright sand]

also this gets shut down the moment we look at fallout 4 mods. they have a lot of halo stuff with an in house mod market that is monetized and had no issues

[paper prawn]

Though that particular mod is just some posters so I doubt a problem lol

[jagged plover]

Ah I see so imma assume someone plans on reaching out on behalf of the halo/Arma community

[round summit]

Starfield has Star Wars mods as well.

[slender jay]

is this just cos the Halo mods are getting too popular or something xD

[urban pulsar]

And halo….

[bright sand]

on BI side? no but ive got some leagal guys looking into it already so i dont think theres an issue at all

[slender sorrel]

You can say the exact same for A3, there will undoubtedly be near replicas, because the whole purpose is to replicate what you see in game, but out of any team making Halo mods, UC has definitely got no ripped assets in.

[jagged plover]

Alr that's good to know bro could you actually inv me to your discord cuz imma assume your gonna keep info posted in there

[round summit]

Well if this goes through, 40k inspired mods aren’t safe either.

[cunning urchin]

Arma 3 still has Star Wars

[haughty island]

40k mods are never safe

[blazing grove]

Nothing with a brand name is safe.

[bright sand]

not really, its not a big thing i just need to show that one guy in bi that were good

[shy fable]

Bi have made some poor decisions recently

[blazing grove]

Arma 3 is a third party workshop and has different moderation and rules

[round summit]

How come the Halo mods have been on the workshop for so long, but Star Wars mods get nuked as soon as they release?

[slender sorrel]

Is it possible to please get an answer to this question

[haughty island]

Cause Disney

[round summit]

Squads galactic contention has no problems though

[bright sand]

because halo ip is owned by Microsoft who has a good free use policy that allows us to use halo inspired ideas to make our own creations as long as we don't rip assets or make money on the project

[fluid nimbus]

^^ and we saw what happened to watershed bc of ripped assets

[slender jay]

Imagine being a company that goes we love peoples creativity and expression of what they make, then 5 mins later being like "we are shutting your mods down cos we don't want that IP anymore, even though you have made these mods to be unique because we have the final say and we decided nope bye bye"

thats my last statement on the issue im out.

[wise cairn]

wat

[lime locust]

But BI can technically be accused of making the money off the mod because the game isn't free

[sweet gulch]

hopefully we can get an official statement from bohemia because this is pretty concerning

[fluid nimbus]

The mouse is not as nice as 343

[bright sand]

m4, m16, m27, ak47/74/U are all copyrighted by the company's who made the guns, if this is the argument no mod is allowed, arma isn't allowed either without permission

[round summit]

Technically 343 is no longer a thing

[paper prawn]

Just in case this situation changes and you missed it earlier. Make sure to forbid the use on a monetized server. That is part of the rules

[whole wren]

Yea indeed🥲

[open estuary]

40k did get slapped with removal like UC

[bright sand]

we did the moment the announcement was made

[paper prawn]

Just making sure 😉

[haughty island]

Honestly, the covo has been a hot topic

[paper prawn]

Half wrong, the M ones are government designations and covered by public use. If Kalishnikov Concern complain then they can try, but arms manufacturers have had less success vs games than against their competitors

[bright sand]

but the argument is to not get into a lawsuit, so if that's the argument those guns could land you in one so they aren't allowed

[paper prawn]

Please don't make them make modders do the DZSA thing with KA-74Ms, KAMs, VSDs, etc. It is awful 😭

[blazing grove]

No they can't, if that was the case then Empire at war, Arma 3, and many other games would be GONE.

[round summit]

Recent cods have had to change weapons names to avoid lawsuits though

[blazing grove]

That's cause they don't want to be related to that COD is horrible and needs to die at this point

[blissful thorn]

cod has named stuff diffrent since ages tho

[paper prawn]

Anyway, fight the battle you are fighting, I really wish you good luck! But stop the whataboutism like that. The reason Halo and Warhammer is being discussed is that someone who was pissed at the DayZ announcement turned around and said: "WaH, thAts uNFaiR Halo aNd Warhammer aRE nOT BannED!"

[round summit]

Dayz announcement?

[blissful thorn]

or simple they should have left this whole ws stuff in the hand of steam

[open estuary]

feels like shifting blame...

[umbral radish]

we put out an announcement the second we found out

[blazing grove]

So true it was a already known and bulit up system not hard to make custom ones for console and leave PC to be normal

[blissful thorn]

but we all forget this is not a game this is a engine test , never was supposed to be seen as a game , but if it wasnt for the modders this would have been dead as not that many people care about nomral conflict , the hand full that played it would have been almost nothing to what there is now

[paper prawn]

Mario's DZSA content usage post:

#ip_rights_violations message

and first HALO mention:

#ip_rights_violations message

[shy fable]

Basically at this point if you are modding i would recommend maybe try make something that is your own IP

[midnight compass]

Arma Reforger is a game, not a tech demo.

[slender sorrel]

Console is getting steam support, the smart thing would be to make A4 go back to using steam, saves bohemia worrying about legal stuff with the mods while allowing its community to still make creations from IPs

[sacred sedge]

Any mod for A3 is hosted on the steam workshop, Steam workshop does not req a purchase to download from. the reforger workshop does that is a big dif for how a mod is distributed legally

[blissful thorn]

it has been stated as a engine not a game for the beginning of its life time

[blazing grove]

So true if we didn't have people like the RHS team or the talented Operation uppercut and Bacon we would not have Arma reforger it would be dead

[midnight compass]

It was mess up by CM back then.

It's a game, not a tech demo.

It's a game that shows what the new engine is, but it is a game.

That is why it continues to receive support and has a platform.

Tech demos do not receive that.

[shy fable]

@midnight compass would it not be a good idea making a youtube video and a community announcement about all these changes , new vision etc?

[blissful thorn]

i still see this as a tech demo... because a lt of it is bare bones even after the updates it had , it lacks in a lot compared to any other arma ,even tho its the easyst time period ... but hey that what we modders are for

[paper prawn]

It does need a purchase of the game in order to download mods from the Steam Workshop. Has done so since about 2017 iirc

[blazing grove]

I'm sorry you can call it a game when it has the same basic functions A3 released with until then the community will continue to refer to it as a tech demo for the next Arma.

[midnight compass]

About what exactly?. The conversations here have shifted many times in this channel that I do not know what you are referring to.

[ionic harbor]

Stop talking for everyone, you are not everyone and not everyone calls it a tech demo

[midnight compass]

Call it whatever you want, it's a game 😅

It is not Arma 3, so do not compare it.

It's it's own game.

[warm idol]

forgive me for going offtopic, but holy whatsaboutism. How did an announcement about what appears to be dayZ assets turn into halo mods being banned?

[blazing grove]

Yeah I'm curious too

[slender sorrel]

Hey Mario 👋, is it possible to get an answer to this question, as it is a bit confusing

[shy fable]

IP addresses, what Reforger actually is , past things said from 2023 etc etc.

[primal nova]

Reminds me of a spiritus quote hold up let me pull it up

[midnight compass]

?

[slender jay]

ngl people have sent serval things now that prove halo mods are allowed to be made so why is there no Announcement on this issue?

[hearty comet]

Chernarus isn’t from DayZ it’s from arma 2, should be fair game

[midnight compass]

Timed out for spreading misleading information multiple times.

Read the discussion, since the beginning.

[dense grove]

unfair brother, i was merely asking to be clear about licenses such as these two, but NOT limited to, as people have said that could also be said for stalker and many more.. I was also asking about gun licenses, helmets and all equipment, and pointing out the hastle it is to make sure as hosts that the modded content we allow on our servers is done with the correct permissions.

[shy fable]

Nope

[haughty island]

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/rules

This is what gone is referencing

[midnight compass]

I know

Read up

There is a clause there which is the issue to us.

[slender sorrel]

I'm confused, because when i asked about recreating stuff from other games and shows, it was said THAT WE need to get an IP, The team making the mod, as in just us would need to get, and it's all good to go, but then we do that for halo, and suddenly it's YOUguys at bohemia need to do it, not us, so who is to say we get permission from an IP to make a mod with their designs, names, lore etc and then a year later you say, you have to take your mod down, unless we at bohemia get written approval regarding the IP,

[midnight compass]

IF you read the conversation, you would have seen it.

[bright sand]

halo mods where not taken down they are still up?

[midnight compass]

There have been rips that have been taken down

[shy fable]

Goodnight mr ref new marioref()

[midnight compass]

Not today but before.

[bright sand]

ok so the issue is ripped assets not halo mods in general

[midnight compass]

Read above.

I won't repeat it again.

[slender sorrel]

I have

[midnight compass]

I explained very clearly there is an issue on THAT license towards us distributing your mod.

[slender sorrel]

Okay, and whats the issue with that license in particular? That hasn't been made clear

[midnight compass]

The license there is aimed towards people making their own fan games

[round summit]

What’s the issue

[midnight compass]

Fan work in art sites, etc

[warm idol]

Just to clarify, the whole halo issue is in regards to the content being on the bohemian workshop, As in halo mods on the steam workshop are not in danger correct?

[orchid mortar]

So as long as they get permission from Microsoft/343 they'll be fine?

[midnight compass]

The issue with us with the mods is that we distribute them in an APP that is sold on an app store.

[vivid scarab]

To be fair, given how rapidly the chat moves I can understand people asking for the case in point.

[midnight compass]

That is the issue.

[blazing grove]

This is from the Microsoft Offical website direct your attention at the last sentence.

Except as described here, you can't sell or otherwise earn any compensation from your Item, including through advertisements in the Item. This means you can't charge money in exchange for your Item, post it on a site that requires subscription or other fees to view the Item, or post it on a page you use to sell other items or services(even if they have nothing to do with Game Content or Microsoft). You also can't use Game Content in an app that you sell in an app store.

[slender sorrel]

But if it's not monetised, then it's not an issue.

[midnight compass]

The clause of the license is the issue.

[lean kelp]

hasnt this mod been up for nearly 2 years

[orchid mortar]

So we gotta go the route of Playstation then?

[midnight compass]

It's an issue for us if you host it in the workshop

[placid gust]

"post it on a site that requires subscription or other fees to view the Item"

[midnight compass]

As we distribute that into the game, a game that is sold within an app store

[sacred sedge]

Arma is, thats the issue

[vivid scarab]

Surely this would affect other modding communities, however? Notably the likes of Sins of a Solar Empire, which... is regularly featured by HS/343i, and has the same issues we're discussing here (at least at a glance).

[round summit]

So does this apply to all mods based around pre-established IPs?

[midnight compass]

Depends. In our case we have the workshop as part of the game

So we are the distributors of the mod in this part.

What part of that is not clear?

[blazing grove]

What Mario say is true it is a problem if you put it in the normal workshop so we need to bring back a dedicated website for Halo and other mods of such.

[paper prawn]

I'm not a lawyer, but I would check with Legal. You mentioned this clause: Except as described here, you can't sell or otherwise earn any compensation from your Item, including through advertisements in the Item. This means you can't charge money in exchange for your Item, post it on a site that requires subscription or other fees to view the Item, or post it on a page you use to sell other items or services(even if they have nothing to do with Game Content or Microsoft). You also can't use Game Content in an app that you sell in an app store. which seems applicable to an app based on the content that you sell (i.e. fits with the no monetization policy). Not sure I see a connection with free Reforger mods that forbid use on monetized servers. But I am not a lawyer

[round summit]

Why do mods for A3 not have the same issue? You have to purchase A3 to access them.

[slender sorrel]

So, clearly the workshop is counterproductive, both for bohemia, as your having to monitor every mod made and it may possibly drag you into legal problems, and the creators, who are limited due to it being part of the game itself

[midnight compass]

No, you can use SteamCMD to download them

[round summit]

But you still have to buy the game to actually play them yes?

[midnight compass]

Yes but the distribution is elsewhere.

[warm idol]

Im going to ask for a simple yes or no for simplicity. I would just like to clear up any confusion about arma 3

Mods being distrubuted directly by bohemia through an ingame workshop on arma is whats causing the issue here.
Arma 3, by using the Steam workshop, is avoiding this issue. Is my interpretation correct?

[urban pulsar]

But isn’t it Bohemia who is allowing said mods to persist and be used on the A3 platform?

[paper prawn]

Not since 2017 without a Steam user name and pw passed to SteamCMD for mods. Can download the server package anonymously

[blazing grove]

Yes the problem is the ingame workshop

[vivid scarab]

Makes sense. Appreciate the clarification Mario.

(I came into this conversation with the A3 head, rather than Reforger. All good!)

[round summit]

How is the in game workshop any different from steam minus the fact BI is in control of it. The issue with have to pay to access the fan content is the same for both A3 and Reforger.

[fluid nimbus]

So to sum it up is ROR and UC mods in reforger allowed or not? Has bi made a statement?

[urban pulsar]

No, based on what I’ve gathered here so far.

[blazing grove]

You also can't use Game Content in an app that you sell in an app store. This is direct from the Microsoft TOS

[hallow glen]

Nope, you need to buy the game to download mods with steamcmd...

Reforger is better with this, as you don't need to own it to be able to get the mods

[round summit]

That’s my point. A3 does the same thing.

[paper prawn]

Because you can't make money from the app... not a free mod that forbids monetized use...

[prime jasper]

Sorry if i am missing something but why is this an issue now? Operation Uppercut has been up for 2 and a half years and they were in contact with microsft making sure it wont get taken down / get sued

Oni Fans Effects (The halo music) the audio was provided to them from 343

[blazing grove]

Arma 3 does not have a Ingame workshop

[fringe fiber]

the mental gymnastics would make you Simone biles

[round summit]

I know, but you still have to buy A3 to access the mods.

[cunning urchin]

Because arma worried about their money instead of other peoples time

[placid gust]

no, you do not

[blazing grove]

No you dont, there are multiple ways to avoid that

[fluid nimbus]

This is all that's happening

[urban pulsar]

That’s what I don’t get. Why is this just now being an issue after thousands of man hours have gone into the mods?

[round summit]

How do you play the mods without owning A3?

[rich whale]

There are some days I wish Arma Reforger would've used Moddb. Maybe something for A4 but I dont think so

[orchid mortar]

Cause no one clearly pays any attention to these issues UNTIL it becomes THEIR issue

[paper prawn]

Yes, you do

[orchid mortar]

This also includes BI for better clarification

[round summit]

10/10 ragebait @Bohemia Interactive

[hallow glen]

Yes you do

[paper prawn]

You cannot

[placid gust]

Then how do server hosts get their mods?

[hallow glen]

By downloading them through steamcnd using account that own Arma 3.

Just like all of us do

[slender sorrel]

Gonna get banned for saying that lmao

[fluid nimbus]

LMFAOO

[paper prawn]

SteamCMD using your own Steam name and password. Until about 2017 you could do it anonymously. Changed then, the same now

[orchid mortar]

Ye

[round summit]

You’ve reached your limit on words today bub.

[placid gust]

huh, TIL

[cerulean stump]

I just want funny mod pew pew die pew pew

[orchid mortar]

Funny sci-fi laser mod

[midnight compass]

!mute 728060186509443132 1d Keep it civil

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @round summit!! Ò_Ó

[orchid mortar]

There are a few fan made projects that mods could be made for in lieu of the bigger IPs

[blazing grove]

Damn i mean I was fine with it I didn't feel insulted or anything man, but alright admins do what admins do.

[cerulean stump]

i REALLY want a stargate mod, but i am not sure on their IP.

[orchid mortar]

Could even go to that one thats recently been gaining a lot of traction. Project Morningstar

[midnight compass]

People asked if it could be an issue, and they got answered. That is why this happened. There is nothing higher behind this. It was just people asking and getting their answer.

[blazing grove]

Stargate is a little weird with IP from what I've heard

[vivid scarab]

All this talk about piracy and Arma 3, and not one mention of the Nassau 1715 mod. smh.

[blissful sphinx]

So is any mod that resembles halo getting taken down? Or are we still waiting on word for it

[wind fractal]

Mythic is getting ahead of it so we can avoid any warnings or mod bans, so we are taking it down.

[blazing grove]

I'd assume that if Microsoft hasn't directly said to BI that such and such is okay that all Microsoft IPS will most likely get reviewed and then taken down. (FOR REFORGER)

[orchid mortar]

If only we could ask them directly

[blazing grove]

Hey Mario do you perchance have access to a list of the ips under threat from the rule.

[fluid nimbus]

Gta6 levels of communication atm

[wet cairn]

Read Microsoft's EULA

[twin crane]

Posting memes in here is the fastest way to obtain a mute that’s the same with reactions too

[blazing grove]

I honestly dont think we should worry about it a workaround will be found for this (Probably a external mod launcher that's 3rd party) and we shall all enjoy the sci-fi mods again.

[cunning urchin]

Ha Ha

[open estuary]

Resistance Fall of Man seems apt

[wet cairn]

A group tried that already and were shut down

[blazing grove]

Yeah I dont think that the next group will with this choice looming over plus I mean could just use Nexus LMAO

[wet cairn]

I believe there's a clause in the EULA which restricts you from distributing mods outside of the workshop

Regardless of where it's uploaded too, that doesn't prevent non-compliance with the Reforger tools. Nexus would receive a DMCA.

[round spruce]

I've just read through all of the messages posted in this channel over the past day. There needs to be an official statement and guidance on the issue relating to projects being published on the Arma Reforger Workshop that use material inspired by the Halo IP, and by extension any material inspired by IP's owned by Microsoft and their Xbox subsidiaries - as apparently, this is going to be an issue for projects containing such content on the platform.

What I would like to relink and focus any staff at BI towards is the official guidance from Microsoft regarding usage of their IP, which would be their Game Content Usage Rules (GCUR):

Xbox Game Content Usage Rules

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/rules

These rules are plain, and in my experience so long as the GCUR is strictly followed there are no issues with appropriately using their IP's - including Halo, of which I have worked on several projects that are inspired by and make use of original designs from the IP. These projects have been directly recognized by the developers and IP holders on their official platforms, have been distributed on similar platforms to the Workshop available on Arma Reforger with no issue, and has previously led to working directly with the IP holders to integrate work into official material.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/canon-fodder-stand-your-ground

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/master-class

https://www.halowaypoint.com/news/canon-fodder-digsite-dissection

I would also like to make note of Operation Trebuchet, another major mod on Arma 3 that has never had any particular instance, to my knowledge, of the IP holder becoming involved and stopping distribution of that project on any platform. Again, this is another project that the IP holders are aware of, and has been recognized by the developers across their official channels.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180613214227/https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/fancy-catch-up

Any official guidance from BI would be welcome by myself, and others that are actively working on projects that use Halo as inspiration. Several years of work has gone directly into the production of Far Isle, for instance, which is a major Halo inspired project, with the intention of releasing it directly onto the Arma Reforger Workshop, and whether that will be permitted or not would be good know in a direct and clear statement from the studio.

[fluid nimbus]

I elect this guy to speak on behalf of the halo reforger community

[runic lantern]

wouldnt this whole issue in regards to halo ip also be attached to all ips including Real World Militaries (i.e. USAF in RHS Mod)

[round spruce]

It would, based on my current reading of the issue at hand.

[fluid nimbus]

Read up they already discussed this

[runic lantern]

trying to find actual info in this is like finding a needle in a haystack full of needles

[vivid scarab]

See, if you mention Sins of the Propet in any capacity, one of the team will respond to the ol' spidey-sense.

[blazing grove]

No this applies mainly to Microsoft games only due to the policy they have

[slender sorrel]

The policy they have doesn't really seem to cover This tho..

[wind fractal]

Microsoft allows for creating your own imitation of Halo assets as long as they are not commercialized.

[blazing grove]

Yes it does reforger is a game purchased from a App store that then grants you access to a workshop therefore is in direct violation of this rule.

Except as described here, you can't sell or otherwise earn any compensation from your Item, including through advertisements in the Item. This means you can't charge money in exchange for your Item, post it on a site that requires subscription or other fees to view the Item, or post it on a page you use to sell other items or services(even if they have nothing to do with Game Content or Microsoft). You also can't use Game Content in an app that you sell in an app store.

[slender sorrel]

This is about the clearest answer I've seen regarding this, thanks, do you have a reference to whwre that can be found in their policy?

[paper prawn]

Real world militaries are government run and therefore in the public domain. It is why the M4 is called an M4 in the game (government designation) and not the AR-15 (Colt trademark)

[blazing grove]

Um, the what are the rules area here: https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/rules

[wind fractal]

Armalite, not Colt.
Wait! I am dumb.

[orchid mortar]

Ye

[paper prawn]

Nope: https://trademarks.justia.com/722/53/ar-72253092.html

[wind fractal]

Check the edit.

[nimble basalt]

Doesnt that apply to steam where you have to purchase arma 3 to download from the steam workshop?

[warped spoke]

As someone who has previously worked on Operation: Trebuchet and is currently working on another project inspired by Halo for Arma 3, (my 7 years experience as an indie dev being consumed by these two projects) I stand with Idio on also wanting clarification.

[orchid mortar]

Colt and all their weird variants of the AR and M4 style platforms

[runic lantern]

steam is fine

[paper prawn]

All cool mate 🙂

[blazing grove]

No Arma 3 has the steam workshop which is a free source of mods

[nimble basalt]

But dont you have to pay for access to download them?

[paper prawn]

No. It. Is. Not. (for ARMA 3 mods)

[blazing grove]

Your mods will be fine they do not fall under this due to you being able to download any mod from any game on the steam workshop, valve made sure that scummy tactics like what's happening now cant happen easily on their platform.

[runic lantern]

at this point in time we need proper clarification announced cause there is one too many conflictions in statements and misinformation

[warped spoke]

Yes, but I want clarification for everyone, not just projects I've worked on.

[primal nova]

Day 869 still waiting for mods to give me a definitive answer on wolfsbuildingpack

[blazing grove]

The only reason why Reforger has a problem is because the workshop is a paid feature (Meaning you have to pay for the Game before you gain access to the feature) as long as you dont post your mods on the Arma reforger ingame workshop your mods will be fine this DOES NOT EFFECT Arma 3.

[orchid mortar]

So what im hearing is, they just make the AR mod platform a separate downloadable and free app that costs nothing. And all this will just vanish into thin air

[blazing grove]

I mean yeah that is one way

[orchid mortar]

Route the new apps download to the prepared config file space set aside for AR mods on Console or whatever platform youre on and it routes the downloaded mods to that file space

[ancient valve]

Or allow mods to be packaged seperately from the workshop and allow servers to use their own CDN to distrubute mods and not use BIs interaction??? Doubt that would happen though xD

[primal nova]

You can host your own mods for reforger

[orchid mortar]

Then you would run into issues for consoles would it not?

[warped spoke]

The AR-15 was not copyrighted, it was patented. Colt's patent which they purchased from Armalite expired in 1977. As long as you don't brand your AR-15 with Colt's branding, you're fine.

[nimble basalt]

some mods wont be accessible for console under that plan which is acceptable

[primal nova]

Just need a way to share them, and you can do it independently of the workshop. You can also disable backend on servers.

Also reforger still uses steam CDN

[ancient valve]

That is the current issue. You can host your own mods after they are packaged, but because they rely on their workshop for distribution, which would require you to disable the backend on the server hosting, it is totally doable, it just isn't officially supportted and should be.

[warped spoke]

Someone's paying attention, slowmode just got turned on.

[primal nova]

Console they probably use their respective cdns, im almost certain.

Also I wonder how "unlisting" mods or setting them as "test" if mods would they Fly under the radar. I host a handful of mods as unlisted and it seems to work well

[round spruce]

This is not an issue on other games that have similar platforms built into the game. I have worked with mod.io building these integrations, it is not an issue.

[blazing grove]

Mod.io is a external free website

[ancient valve]

(this is a joke)
Now BI rule, you can't have mods that bypass Bohemias workshop system or server authorization. Wouldn't surprise me at this point.

[round spruce]

It is a licensed integration, built into games that must be purchased, and they have no issue distributing content.

[blazing grove]

Fun fact there's always ways around and I dont recall alot of star wars and other such content probably for the same reason, but from what I remember mod.io was a free thing cause I remember going to a website to download shit at one point.

[round spruce]

Regardless, I do not believe that Reforger being a premium product that requires purchase before making use of the Workshop functionality is the issue at hand here. Again, still awaiting clarification from Bohemia Interactive directly, I'm going to refrain from speculating further.

[blazing grove]

Nope it is look at Microsofts rules infact here.

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/rules

Except as described here, you can't sell or otherwise earn any compensation from your Item, including through advertisements in the Item. This means you can't charge money in exchange for your Item, post it on a site that requires subscription or other fees to view the Item, or post it on a page you use to sell other items or services(even if they have nothing to do with Game Content or Microsoft). You also can't use Game Content in an app that you sell in an app store.

[round spruce]

That is an incredibly specific speculative reading of their guidelines, and it is not an issue on other platforms.

[paper prawn]

"you" - the content creator - is the most important word in that clause... "You also can't use Game Content in an app that you sell in an app store"

[blazing grove]

Sadly that means the Arma reforger workshop

[paper prawn]

There is no selling happening by you

My own personal, none lawyer reading of the clause is that so long as you are not selling the mod and forbid its use on monetized servers (there is a separate downstream user no monetization clause in the agreement) then it should be fine

[vocal patio]

under your definition here
that would also include the Steam Workshop, as something that wasn't mentioned here earlier is to actually download a workshop item (even via steamCMD) the account has to own the game for which the workshop is for

[topaz iron]

technically, as long as the mod is open source and open to download from the public through git or some other method then the mod doesn't break any rules, it just happens to also exist on the arma reforger workshop and as long as BI doesn't advertise with that mod it should all be gravy.

But at the end of the day it is BIs game and they can decide what content can/can't be put up, I'd personally like to see them support modders by setting up lines of communication to the direct IP holders so modders can ask if they have the rights to use x mod in a non-profit way.

[blazing grove]

The whole problem is the selling of the game with the workshop if it was removed then this wouldn't be a discussion. So I can explain further without waiting for slow mode, the workshop in A3 is steam meaning you can get it anytime with out purchasing the game but with reforger you must PAY to download the moded content because the moded content is in a INGAME workshop if it was external it would be fine

[paper prawn]

Honestly I think the best thing to do, given it is almost 3 am in the morning in Czechia, is to pause and wait for clarification in a few hours when people get into the office (let alone awake) 🙂 Just continuing and posting another 200 messages before that happens serves no purpose

[warped spoke]

Agreed

[vocal patio]

again, for both of these you must pay to actually download the content

[blazing grove]

Could be a decent work around to this

[blazing grove]

Nope there's ways to force steam downloads from what others have already said I'm sorry but I'm seriously not going to reiterate myself for the 5th time on the same exact topic to somebody else, go and read the early conversations please before you chime in any further, not trying to be rude just a little over repeating myself is all.

[topaz iron]

I'd like to see some list from BI of IPs that are acceptable under x conditions (no profits, no rips, the usual) and which IPs the modders themselves have to make a case to the IP holders with BI verifying. cause at the end of the day none of us here want BI getting slammed with a lawsuit over this.

I would like some concrete rules before arma 4 cause once that drops all the arma 3 modders are gonna come over and I don't want there to be a massive wave of banned mods because people didn't know ahead of time. Plus this would give BI a list to point to and say "hey, you know the rules and what is/isnt allowed" and this whole conversation could be nipped in the bud.

[blazing grove]

That is something I asked Mario for and I haven't gotten any response at all

[paper prawn]

Please stop saying that. Several of us who actually run ARMA 3 servers have already stated that to download ARMA 3 mods you need to either use a Steam client that owns ARMA 3 or use SteamCMD (with the user name and password of an account that owns ARMA 3)

[vocal patio]

I have read those conversations, and what they have said is a combination of two things
#ip_rights_violations message
#ip_rights_violations message
Mario's information is based on something that was true in the past but is no longer true
I also have first hand information on this from setting up a dummy account buying a second copy of arma during a sale, just to make management of our server easier
please stop repeating things that just aren't true
Graheme is correct

[paper prawn]

You can download the ARMA 3 server package anonymously, not mods

[blazing grove]

I'm sorry but I've done it before a long time ago so unless it's fully changed then it should be in effect still

[topaz iron]

Lets wait, they are a company after all and probably have to bring this up to legal/deal with company bureaucracy.

A developer cannot and should not speak for the company when it comes to something that can cause lawsuits/legal trouble (such as mismanaging IPs)

[vocal patio]

the mods were the issue no one wanted their steam credentials left on the server box, this was the easy way around for $7

[paper prawn]

Changed about 2017 iirc... before that I had a second steam account with no games. Had to enter my primary steam user name and password after that

[blazing grove]

Yeah I'm honestly waiting to see a member of legal hop in the discord to sort this all out at this point.

[topaz iron]

prob not gonna ever happen lol, we just have to wait for a offical announcement

[umbral radish]

@midnight compass cool if i dm you

[solar trench]

Probably not going to happen either. I have never seen them do that.

[round spruce]

Guidance Request: Permissibility of Material Distributed on Arma Reforger Workshop Inspired by Halo

[solar trench]

Poor guy getting pinged like that 💀

[blazing grove]

Mario's gonna look in here, take a glance at a bottle of whiskey and down that shit so he can deal with us all.

[solar trench]

Upgrade it to Bourbon and a Cigar.

[blazing grove]

Churchill style is the way to live

[umbral radish]

you know i just remembered we've had a thread in here for A WHILE and not once did anyone say anything to us

[muted slate]

the thread's subject appears to be more oriented torwards BI on the topic rather than the discussion ongoing here between us (but they are of the same topic)
btw, if anyone happened to be a subject expert on this matter, it'd most likely be Idio

I'd prob just sit back, let this play out and refrain from clogging the channel to help the folks at BI

*until we get an official response

[tribal crest]

Hey, what happened with all this talk about Halo being prohibited on Reforger?

Trying to figure out what’s going on

[fluid nimbus]

Read up

[umbral radish]

it is about IP because we had a thread on here for like 2 years and not once has ANYONE said anything about our mod

[tribal crest]

Well no doh- I was asking for a summary 😅

I'll read up but there is a LOT to catch up on, it seems

There's so much needless fluff in this discussion, all I want to know is:

Has Bohemia made ANY OFFICIAL statement banning Halo mods from Reforger? That's all I'm here to find out

[gusty hare]

I also would like to know this, I haven't seen anything other than posts from the Modding Dept Lead explaining that they're being yanked

[round spruce]

They have not, as of current. I have a thread up to follow for more: https://discord.com/channels/105462288051380224/1381425551398670508

[gusty hare]

Very good

[tribal crest]

Awesome, thank you for the answer 🫡 I'll keep posted on the thread just in case

OPTRE has been up and fine for many years now with usage permitted under Microsoft's own GCUR (linked many times) above so IMHO this is a big nothing burger unless BIS themselves say otherwise

[brave wren]

so again its not real

[wet cairn]

There's some genuine concern about the MS EULA but it seems like the issue got blown up out of proportion in this chat... I can't figure out where the conversation originated from and why.

[tribal crest]

????

[rugged meteor]

as i read this might just be uppercut making stuff up and perhaps not BIs fault, but we'll have to see

[blazing grove]

Just a note all this came from a DAYZ announcement and then one guy going off about halo mods.

[rugged meteor]

then why did OP uppercut announce its own takedown?

[round spruce]

See the above linked message that Storey replied to. I'm unsure as to how official that statement is, or what exactly led to that decision if it is.

[rugged meteor]

I have seen it and the thread but this still doesnt explain why they announced it, yea
as you said, well have to wait and see

[round spruce]

It is not ideal.

[timber cypress]

Why are they taken down yet they were never a problem in arma 3? Seems just like an excuse to save your ass.

[obsidian sorrel]

Read the past day of messages, I disagree with, as most people do, but it’s not as simple as you are implying.

[timber cypress]

Ill keep reading

[umbral radish]

UH our mod is still up lil homie we are just waiting on Mario to be clear on if Halo as a whole is banned or not

[rugged meteor]

whats this then

[umbral radish]

you're not even in the server 💀 you haven't seen the others

[dull cloak]

"You also can't use Game Content in an app that you sell in an app store. " from Microsoft's guidelines. Steam Workshop does not meet this criteria. Reforger's workshop is built into an app sold on an app store. Steam Workshop is entirely separated from the games it hosts mods for

[rugged meteor]

i give up this is clearly just mod dev drama

[rancid pine]

probably in lieu of server monetization

[topaz iron]

My honest 2 cents on this issue is that this channel shouldn’t exist, there should be a form which players can fill out or just a button on a mod page that can then be used to report potential ip violations. Having devs directly interact with the community is great and all but when mod teams are lurching from being told that all their work will be removed to (potentially) days later saying everything is gravy should just never happen. Ever.

Bis legal team should’ve been consulted first then the community management can take over and tell a developer that their mod will be taken down and an announcement can be made if warranted. It should NEVER be a BI developer reading a ip agreement or a game content user agreement, etc and then basically saying “yeah, everything under x ip will now be removed from the workshop” in a random channel and now everyone is panicking.

It’s just not professional and should never happen, it will just create greater resentment and confusion in this community.

I love the BI dev team and the amazing work that goes into this community but when you want to foster a mod focused community and game there NEEDs to be open and concise lines of communication and steps the community knows you will go to ensure that all rights are protected and that all modders understand. Not just Mario in a channel seemingly saying “all x and y mods will now be taken down from the workshop”.

[ruby galleon]

@midnight compass will these IPs be allowed in Arma IV? I enjoyed Trebuchet in III

[tribal crest]

^^^THIS

[west plank]

This is so weird. People will be more hesitant to invest their time in learning the tooling if their mods can be insta-banned on a whim

[rustic copper]

It's not weird if people just expect they can do whatever they want, are not able to do it the right way and then getting butthurt...

[fringe fiber]

this channel s two thing but helpful to creators. arma drama channel. and the "i have zero knowledge of ip laws but i will give my awful opinion anyway!" channel.

[ruby galleon]

https://tenor.com/view/eating-popcorn-maximus-fallout-amused-popcorn-gif-3699124693786595318

[prime jasper]

thats not realy the issue thi the issue is said people clesred it with 343 2 years ago now bi is saying no

[solar trench]

I don't think they've cleared it. 343, or community guys, doesn't answer this type of stuff.

[prime jasper]

in the past they did because they also asked about the legality of the mod + 343 gave uc the audio files for OniFans effects (halo music)

[dull cloak]

343 absolutely does. Don't make assumptions. There's numerous posts through official Microsoft channels of 343 discussing multiple modding projects and other projects that follow Microsoft's guidelines.

[solar trench]

Links? Bc I've tried before.

[dull cloak]

Several examples were posted further up in the channel

[solar trench]

Must be all the way up, bc I see nothing showing they got consent from 343.

[rustic copper]

In the end, it's not BI's ruling on what is allowed or not; for Halo it's Microsoft who has the last word.
And since Reforger is on Xbox, I'm sure their lawyers are looking a bit more closely to what is getting released as mods using their IP's.

So if you want to be 100% safe, ask Microsoft for permission for your project(s) and if any issues arise, present that documentation 🤷

[twin crane]

Is creating Admin ESP tools against any rules?

It would be nice to monitor characters movement since their are cheats for arma reforger. Very subtle but existent I’ve witnessed it about 3 times blatantly it was bad a year ago

Creating some advanced admin tools would be a nice way to prove players are cheating and directly report their GUID to Bohemia the system does flag cheating by default but it doesn’t pick it up most of the time

I’ve seen the message in logs say “Detected something something movement” “Player may be cheating”

[arctic jewel]

No.

[leaden cipher]

"Just a developer"??? Looks again at MarioE's profile

[twin crane]

He’s the boss man

[leaden cipher]

Yup, and side by side with the legal department 😉

[shy fable]

HR

[gaunt stirrup]

To sum up, it would appear that the bit in the GCUR causing the contention is:

"Except as described here, you can't sell or otherwise earn any compensation from your Item, including through advertisements in the Item. This means you can't charge money in exchange for your Item, post it on a site that requires subscription or other fees to view the Item, or post it on a page you use to sell other items or services(even if they have nothing to do with Game Content or Microsoft). You also can't use Game Content in an app that you sell in an app store."

The wording here is vague and therefore wide reaching. I can see why the action has been taken. As Mario has said, because BI are acting as the distributors they are liable and with wording such as this its easy to catch some flack.

The only real option for resolution would be to have Microsoft review the GCUR to include some specific wording regarding mods due to them now becoming more readily available on their platforms (think the creation club for fallout and now the BI workshop)

Anything short of this really leaves BI open to litigation which is understandable why a company would avoid that.

I believe it would be beneficial if BI wants to continue the BI workshop for the A4 project being available on console/packaged with the game itself to have that discussion with Microsoft to get the wording to be more concise/specific or add exclusion clauses for mod workshops packaged with games. But, this may have already happened and been unsuccessful

Just my long winded two pence

[rustic copper]

I still don't see why BI would be responsible for modders not being able to ask (explicit) permission 🤷

Just ask Microsoft (or any developer you want to use IP from) and get permission.

[vagrant ore]

bi ruining their game one step at a time haha

[vivid scarab]

Would also be a case of like - Fallout 4 is on Xbox. It has mods. It specifically has Halo mods that have never caused issues.

[gaunt stirrup]

Yet

My point is the wording is so vague it has the possibility of causing issues

[vivid scarab]

This is also true imo - I think the biggest issue currently is the GCUR is a decade old at this stage, and could really do with a look-in. That or getting in touch directly with 343i/HS for better clarification.

[flint geyser]

Seems like something you might want to double check before putting work into a project

[gaunt stirrup]

While true, the interpretation of the license in this way is a surprise to many, the going knowledge of the halo IP in terms of Mods has been that you are allowed so long as you make your own stuff and don't monetise it. Its never been a problem, until the unique situation with BI packaging the workshop with the game.

Not saying BI shouldn't have done, I understand the reasons behind it.

[flint geyser]

I would hope that a consultation with an IP lawyer would yield the same interpretation

[gaunt stirrup]

Well that's obviously what's happened on BI's end. Though I know its the obvious point, alot of these projects are done on a volunteer basis with no financial backing, so consulting an IP lawyer is out of scope for people in this scenario. Unfortunately its one of the caveats of doing a passion project based on others IP, the rug can be pulled at any time.

The MW2 MP mod and CSGO classic projects are recent cases

[flint geyser]

To be fair (and this is not about this case in particular) if you are not sure if what you are doing is allowed, is doing it anyway the right choice? The more work/time you put in the worse it feels when it blows up.

[gaunt stirrup]

That would be the advice I would give yes, but in this case I believe that the reforger content creators truly were under the impression that what was allowed on a3 would be allowed on reforger and had no indication from their understanding that there could possibly be an issue.

(I know you said not in this case but just making the point)

[dull cloak]

As was more eloquently said above, people are focusing on the wrong things. It isn't that BI did this, it's how they did this. We found out through the modding team. Then, through a side channel in discord, informally, we were told about a blanket ban on Halo and Warhammer.

I second that this is incredibly unprofessional and that this channel never should have existed. BI has many ways to inform the community of this information in a professional and clear cut manner that leaves no ambiguity or doubt. Most of the community will never see this channel, they will just hear the rumours, which will turn into more and more twisted versions of the truth.

If BI informed the team that their mod would be taken down, they should have already had a public statement ready to go immediately after, so the community would learn it through them. Now all we have is confusion, debate, panic and rumours. I understand this is a complicated and difficult situation, and I really do empathise with the devs and BI's employees as a whole, but I respectfully request that in the future incredibly important information like this is conveyed through better channels, and in clearly worded pre-written statements, not on the fly responses in a side channel.

I genuinely mean no disrespect in saying this.

[midnight compass]

They were never told to take down the mod.

It all started because it was mentioned that halo mods were taken down. Not being taken down.

Which initially it was referring to total halo asset rips.

[flint geyser]

1. Modder opens mod tools and accepts agreement saying they are not allowed to upload any infringing content
2. Modder uploads infringing content
3. Mod gets banned
4. Everyone says it's bohemia's fault

This channel is a mistake

[midnight compass]

The other aspect was bringing up a possible issue with a clause with us.

Thats it.

The rest was people getting in here and speculating on actions.

If you ask the mod teams, none of them have received an email or dm regarding it.

If the mods break the license, then they have to go down.

If they are asset rips meaning taken with reverse engineering which is against the Microsoft agreement then they have to go down.

[wintry hatch]

What is the difference between Operation Trebuchet for A3 and Operation Uppercut for AR? From what I've been getting, they're doing mostly the same thing - recreating Halo universe on BI's game engines using their own assets resembling assets from original games, no?

[midnight compass]

Those that have been taken down were breaching that.

In here

[gaunt stirrup]

If I'm understanding it right, mario brought up it may be an issue and uppercut took their own mod down?

[midnight compass]

Unless something gets presented like this

#ip_rights_violations message

It's not a call to action or announcement.

[midnight compass]

Correct, no action has been taken by us.

[ruby galleon]

but whats this mean if Uppercut arent being taken down

[crimson ingot]

how about official port of dayz stuff to arma by BI, like the AKM and MP5K for APEX DLC?

i forgot which chat i meant to reply

[gaunt stirrup]

Well then this thing is a rather large overreaction then

[midnight compass]

IF they are not ripping anything then it should be fine on their side.

[rustic copper]

welcome to this channel 🤷

[midnight compass]

If they are ripping assets then it's an issue, as per Microsoft agreement.

[ruby galleon]

they’re hand modeling everything in their channels.

[faint nacelle]

it is best if mod teams converse with BI instead of random public members.

and mod teams appoint person of contact

so not everyone asks the same question and the questions all get lost

[gaunt stirrup]

You're missing the point, Mario, BI as a whole haven't taken any action against uppercut, they just said that if something infringes on the license it will be taken down not that uppercut itself is in the crossfire

[dull cloak]

If the only announcement was the DayZ thing I once again respectfully say this channel never should have existed, or only BI employees/those who represent BI should be able to type in this channel. Because whether or not it was intended as an announcement, this was taken as one, and surely it's understandable why.

[coral torrent]

There is nothing to announce. This is not new, nothing has changed. The workshop TOS have always required the author to have sufficient permission to upload it there. The IP holders in questions are KNOWN not to grant any such permissions, to no one, without exception. If we are made aware of any infringements we are legally obligated to remove them.

[midnight compass]

That second message is not talking specifically about Halo.

It is replying to his overall message.

If you get banned for bringing an IP. Then those IPs were not allowed given their licenses if that is better put.

The first message before that is refering to Halo and Warhammer mods that were taken down due to ripping.

Unless you get told to take down your mod, like in the DZ announcement, then there is no action being done.

[gaunt stirrup]

Which has happened for ages, I believe there was a mod when I was on the OPTRE team that added jackals and covenant ships that got taken down because they were just straight up rips

[midnight compass]

This chat is for people to discuss IP, do not follow things unless you are actually told to act on it.

[dull cloak]

I understand that. I'm pointing out that due to multiple overlapping conversations and the nature of a discussion, people interpreted it as an announcement. That is clear by the Uppercut team's rapid and very major response to what in the end boiled down to nothing changing and the rules being the same as they always were. The intentions of this channel and what you said were good, but I'm trying to explain how it was interpreted by the community, and how this channel existing at all is going to likely repeatedly lead to these misinterpretations and overreactions by the community. I don't think you did anything wrong, I just don't think this channel will ever be used in a productive way.

[acoustic oar]

Greetings everyone,

I've been reading through this chat, and I find myself having some trouble understanding how the discussion is unfolding (partially because my English isn't very good). I just have a clarifying question, and I apologize if this has already been answered earlier.

I am one of the developers of the CHE Grimdark Frontiers mod based on Warhammer 40,000. We create all our assets completely from scratch. Additionally, we have reached out to Games Workshop (GW); unfortunately, they did not grant us a license for the intellectual property, but they did express that they are happy to see fan-made content. (If needed, I can share a screenshot of the email.)

Moreover, their fan content policy clearly states that the work must be non-commercial and distributed for free (a screenshot of this is also available).

My question is: Are we in violation of the AR Workshop rules?

[midnight compass]

Yeah I think these things should be handled in tickets if BI devs are to weight in.

[dull cloak]

I strongly agree

[midnight compass]

It is always the case that mid discussion some random people jump in and derail or confuse it, even for us.

It's why during the DZ announcement a cooldown was implemented.

[gaunt stirrup]

I concur, this would lead to less confusion, when reading through earlier It was hard to seperate the confusion and speculation from fact

[thorn garden]

wolfsbuildingpack was banned and then reinstated pending a future statement about use of dzsa data in reforger. when that statement was released wolfsbuildingpack remained on the workshop and chernarusreforged was removed. at the time it was banned mario stated that wolfsbuildingpack had models and terrain data taken from dzsa. this is pure speculation but i believe that he was mistaken, that wolfsbuildingpack had no ripped models and the terrain data he was referring to was in chernarusreforged hence why chernarusreforged was later banned and why wolfsbuildingpack was reinstated and remains on the workshop. i suspect wolfsbuildingpack is safe to use but will receive no further updates because wolf is angry that years of his work was thrown in the bin.

[midnight compass]

I mentioned the user ripped those things, not that they were in the buildings pack.

In the buildings pack, he was told to remove things that were ripped if any.

The terrain mod was definitely ripped.

[thorn garden]

you said "there's dzsa stuff in it"

[midnight compass]

See that it is talking about the USER

He had multiple mods.

[thorn garden]

so what does the word "it" refer to in that statement?

[midnight compass]

The terrain mod.

And if he did it in other mods, then those mods.

[coral torrent]

wolf is angry that years of his work was thrown in the bin.
He and anybody else that ports copyrighted content that is not their own has nothing to complain about if they never seeked permission from the authors (in this case us) and just "hoped it would be ok" before starting all that work.

He was probably unaware of the issue before we got in contact, but not knowing the rules does not mean you do not need to follow them.

[midnight compass]

he was warned to take out everything he knows he took from reverse engineering and debinning DZSA

If he takes things from the buildings pack, then that is why.

[thorn garden]

the terrain mod was not being discussed as it was not banned and still on the workshop at the time, you were clearly refering to wolfsbuildingpack which was banned and what was specifically being discussed at the time

[midnight compass]

I was referring to the user. All his mods regarding that were on the hook

[thorn garden]

you used poor wording if that is the case

[midnight compass]

I did not.

There is DayZ stuff still on there

As we said before, replicas.

Actual rips were on the terrain.

This is why the announcement has this

If you are currently developing or maintaining a mod/server that includes any replicas, derivatives, or direct uses of DayZ content including the brand name, logo, or visual likeness we kindly ask that you take steps to remove them immediately.

The user went onto DZSA, and replicated models designs.

As for the Chernarus map, he ripped it from DZSA. It was not the one from A2.

Also

The terrain mod was on it;s way to be banned too when all that was said.

He was given the choice to remove offending content instead, which is why the ban was lifted.

Also this never changed

It was never allowed to do such things.

I am not sure why but people seem to draw a line with A3 assets, but not with DZSA

[thorn garden]

so why do you not consider wolfsbuildingpack to be "offending content" you just said it has "replicas" and quoted the statement about replicas of dayz content not being allowed

[midnight compass]

It is. He has to remove everything DayZ related.

He's given time to do so.

The terrain mod, he took down right away as the whole thing was an issue.

The announcement was made so that people apart from him do the same

Anyway this does not concern you. Stop it or be muted.

[thorn garden]

okay, so you're saying there are specific models at issue in wolfsbuildingpack and you're giving him time to remove the offending models. thanks for the clarification

[midnight compass]

The issue at hand has been clarified many times.

[midnight compass]

Yes.

[primal nova]

Dude no you weren't. You absolutely were not. Don't change your tune now.

I need a definitive answer on wolfs from you guys I use his pack in my terrain

[midnight compass]

I can't give you answer if he will take it down or not.

If everything is a replica, then it has to go down.

If he has things that are not replicas, then he can keep those and keep the mod without the replicas.

[primal nova]

IDGAF if he will or not. What is BI's stance on the mod. Stop being vague and indirect.

[midnight compass]

I told you

[tulip meadow]

Check your tone.

[midnight compass]

It is in breach

He was given second chance to take down offending content.

If he does not, then the mod will be banned by us.

[twin crane]

Not that deep man chill

[midnight compass]

If he decides it is too much hassle and takes the mod down himself. Then it is also gone.

[ruby swallow]

He's not even on this Discord anymore. Who knows if he still intends to fix it 🙈

[round spruce]

Mario, I'm unsure as to if you have seen the thread that is specific to this issue, but I would appreciate your input there rather than in a channel that is liable to have information lost to a deluge of additional conversation.

https://discord.com/channels/105462288051380224/1381425551398670508

[twin crane]

He intends to remove the IP from his mods. He is likely arguably disappointed I do not blame him as he put in a lot of work.

This is not worth the fighting the reasons are very clear and were foreseen In the past. Some reasons in his defence should be looked at deeper but again the IP is Bohemia Interactives and is not publicly available (DZSA)

[primal nova]

Check my tone? Are you serious. You're a jannie, check your tone.

[round spruce]

They are literally one of the developers, you are not helping yourself.

[twin crane]

Murphy is far from a janitor…

[tulip meadow]

A Janitor?
You are sweet.
Take some time to learn colours and manners.

[faint nacelle]

!ban @primal nova 7d naughty corner for being rowdy, confrontational and rude.

[edgy coral]

*PewPewPew!!*
RIP @primal nova
scannerbro#0000 now has 3 infractions.

[tulip meadow]

Oooh 😦
I just wanted to mute him.

[twin crane]

Deserved. It’s not worth throwing insults. Mario has disclosed what is to be discussed at this time.

[faint nacelle]

He has had mutes before. No improvement

[tulip meadow]

Fair I guess.
No back to the channel topic.

[misty roost]

wolfbuildingpack gona be ban ?

[tulip meadow]

If he doesn't correct what is currently offending, yes.
If he does correct it, then not.

[twilit topaz]

Can you please answer on question about wh and halo mods? @midnight compass or @faint nacelle
Just the words about "They will be taken down" makes misunderstanding for wh and halo coms

[faint nacelle]

That would me Mario's department.

[twilit topaz]

It looks really silly when you say we’re going to be banned and then completely ignore any related questions, both in private messages and here. I won’t even mention how unprofessional that is.

[midnight compass]

Check the thread in here please, refrain from cluttering the thread as well as that is what caused this confusion... It's hard to follow for me and people what is linked to what.

[round spruce]

https://discord.com/channels/105462288051380224/1381425551398670508

[twilit topaz]

I’ve read it, and there’s no answer to my question @midnight compass. We want to help calm down the community, but you can’t even get a short response like “Yeah guys, it’s fine, keep working on the mod,” or just know if we should stop wasting time on this.

First, regarding the screenshots — you said they were banned and would be banned. But then it turns out the issue was about ripped assets, and we don’t have any ripped assets in our mod.

And regarding the whole “don’t clutter the thread” thing — it was you who wrote in this chat that mods would be banned, and now my team just wants an answer: is it still worth putting effort into this?

I even linked the message that got ignored #ip_rights_violations message

Right now it's a basic situation where people simply don’t know whether it makes sense to keep investing time and effort into developing mods. That’s exactly why we need a clear answer — are we safe or not?

[midnight compass]

As said, it is explained in the thread

#1381425551398670508 message

[runic lantern]

Basically don't rip content from ips

[midnight compass]

Halo models is not allowed, as they basically mean rips.

Halo inspired models are another thing

THey are not halo models.

[twilit topaz]

okay, it makes sense.
Thanks for answer. We’ll help calm things down in our community.

[wind fractal]

Thank you for the clarification.
Sorry if our confusion caused any undue stress.

[topaz iron]

I’ve said this above but having the mod be open to download to the public through GitHub or some kind of digital storage service would make it comply with all the rules. Then just have it also happen to exist on the arma reforger workshop (with the git/digital service link in the description) since anyone can access the reforger workshop description pages from the arma reforger website, it makes it public and free.

The only grey area is having the models/textures be BIs .edds/.xob files since that can only be used in arma reforger rn, and I know having to upload the raw .fbx or textures may be a issue with some modders since people can then just take their models they put work into and do whatever they want with them. (It’s also a lot of unnecessary bloat for the mod itself).

[round spruce]

That is, for most projects, not a workable long-term solution. While we may not own the intellectual property rights to Halo, for example, we do still individually own the rights to the assets we produce up to a point, and making them available makes it significantly more difficult for our artists, programmers, designers, etc. to present material in their own portfolios. If anyone has access to source files, it disrupts the ability to prove that one individual "owns" or created the original files, it can become an IP issue in and of itself. Individuals that might want to restrict the redistribution of assets beyond their original use scope now have no clear path nor legal remedies available to them, DMCA becomes more difficult to enforce, and while that bar is not particularly high it isn't worth raising further.

[rustic copper]

Big problem; you're also not allowed to use the Workbench for creating illegal content, so unless you've built your own tools to make Reforger mods it's impossible to do so 🤷

So bypassing the Workshop to ship content which isn't allowed there, already breached the EULA of the Arma Tools, meaning both the IP holder and BI can have your content taken down (no matter where it's hosted)

[topaz iron]

I understand, it’s just how I’m interpreting the GCUR from Microsoft and how games workshop worded their content agreement. Since all workshop items and files will only ever be used on arma platform applications and all arma platform applications need you to have a steam/microsoft/PlayStation account and not to mention they all cost money, it becomes a massive grey zone on wether it’s approved or not by the actual ip holder.

[round spruce]

I would note, that within this conversation's context, none of the material being discussed is "illegal" so long as it follows, in this particular instance, the GCUR. It is permissible derivative works, that are inspired by the original Halo designs, which is allowed within the boundaries of their licensing so long as profit is not being made, and it is not mistakable for official material from that IP. That's a really loose and probably too simple a summary of how it works, but functionally the question being raised is what types of platforms are those works allowed to be distributed on, not necessarily whether or not they're illegal in their own right.

I am neither a lawyer, nor someone that is an expert on IP law, but it's definitely true that all of this exists in a gray space that isn't well defined or easily navigable. Which really, is precisely what allows any of us here to produce what we do, being somewhat nebulous and generally broad does help give everyone on both sides of the IP equation some degree of defence for their works.

[rustic copper]

My point is; if it's not allowed to be on the workshop, it's also not allowed to be made with the workbench.
So bypassing the workshop alone is not enough, as you would also need to "bypass" the workbench to create a mod for Reforger/Arma 4, and probably even the game itself as it doesn't allow to be used for content which breaks copyright/trademark/IP/other laws.

Obviously the question is "does GCUR allow it", but trying to bypass BI TOS/EULA's in case it doesn't, is not going to work at all.

[round spruce]

Oh absolutely, you're 100% right there. If it's not allowed on their Workshop, let's say (hypothetically speaking here, just to be clear to anyone reading this is not what has happened) Bohemia Interactive decides as a party that they don't want to deal with the liability of moderating this type of content on their platform - then equally using their tools to produce that content would also quickly come into question. Since their tools must package it, redistribution of that material on other platforms would become an additional headache that Bohemia Interactive legal would need to deal with, on top of preventing the material being published on their platform to begin with.

To stretch that hypothetical out a little further, I imagine it would also preclude making your own tools as well. Doing so would require one to reverse engineer the existing content, which is strictly against Bohemia Interactive's licensing and guidelines. Custom tools are out the window. If you cannot produce custom tools, there is no way to produce any content that is prohibited on their platform, meaning that any such content that exists would be in a non-functional state or be outright illegal anyway.

[chilly silo]

Ok I'll chip in here:

• Making HALO mods for reforger (which is available on Xbox) represents a threat to Microsoft sales of HALO for xbox etc.
• Microsoft's clause about making mods only applies for the original game the IP belongs to.
• Legally, in most jurisdictions making "original artistic representations" (ie you make everything from scratch and do not use any of the microsoft made content) is legal. HOWEVER, it stops being legal when:
  a) You monetise it in any form without written legal permission specific to your use case.
  b) Create that mod on a game or platform that may impact on Microsoft's profit making ventures. Be it games, film rights, audio etc.
  c) Fair Use criteria are not met or exceeded acceptable use - (https://arma3practicalipguide.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html)
  d) Any unauthorised use of Trademarks, Branding or other PR materials. (https://arma3practicalipguide.blogspot.com/p/trademark.html)

While I've not spoken to anyone from either BIS or Microsoft it doesnt take a genius to connect some dots here.

• Reforger is available on XBOX.
• HALO is native to XBOX
• Any HALO mods for Reforger would compete with HALO.
  So It seems logical that Microsoft would not be very happy.

I don't have any inside info here so I have no idea if this move is BIS being cautious or if Microsoft Legal have leaned out of their ivory tower for a word with BIS Legal.

But bottom line is:

• Microsoft own the IP and have the right to dictate how it is used.
• BI owns and hosts the Reforger Workshop and has the right to dictate what content is acceptable or not.

We all only play under their rules.

Someone also commented about "Isnt this the same for weapons and vehicles.".

No, its actually very different:

https://arma3practicalipguide.blogspot.com/2021/09/what-is-artistic-representation.html
https://arma3practicalipguide.blogspot.com/2020/01/battle-over-hmmwv-hummers-vipers-venoms.html

There is plenty of case law about this. Crye Multicam vs Clones is an example. As is AM General vs Activision and so on.

https://arma3practicalipguide.blogspot.com/2021/08/crye-camo-pattern-vs-mtp-vs-1001-clones.html

[round spruce]

I agree with everything you've posted, up to the point of making the leap to active competition. As of this time, Halo does not have a similar product in the marketplace that competes with Arma Reforger, and content made within that framework for use within it also in a general sense, at least from my layman perspective, does not compete. Obviously, I personally am not qualified (perhaps you are an IP lawyer, I will make no assumptions here) to make a decision or argument for or against that point, just thought I'd mention it.

[chilly silo]

I'm not an IP lawyer either. However I ran a 3d content creation business for a decade. I was also an Aerospace Engineer and Project manager with 30+ years of experience and a lot of past projects in my portfolio that had a lot of IP and copyright legalities involved. And unlike most people here I have actually taken 15+ IP cases to court and through the international legal process.

In my experience What you and I may perceive to be a similar or competing product is going to be irrelevant to a company lawyer in Microsoft or similar. Its enough for the most miniscule possibility of competition to be enough to goto court.

Why take the risk?

There are other ways around Trademark and copyright restrictions on fan made content but honestly they rarely stand up under legal scrutiny.

[round spruce]

I don't disagree at all.

[twin crane]

It would be nice to have a discord made by BI where we can have these discussions. Privately as modders

It would save so much stress from these channels. And it would open up better communication amongst us.

[round spruce]

I actually prefer this format to some extent, as it does not gatekeep this information from other parties that might find the information relevant.

[dire quest]

or just cleaning up the pins and finishing the FAQ page (which to my understanding is already happening through mario)

[twin crane]

Yes where we could reference things. Have open communication with development staff for Arma Reforger. And we could have meetings whatever scheduled or open conversations with.

[round spruce]

A closer more open relationship between modders and Bohemia does exist, they have veteran modders that have been around for a long time that have, I assume, some degree of privileged access to them. They have worked with teams from the community to produce community lead official DLC, so it does exist.

[twin crane]

At the end of the day the communication is key.

As modders we are on the Community Development side of things.

As developers they are game development.

We work hand in hand, especially with the capabilities this game offers for modding. Without mods where would this game be realistically.

That’s not to say they also don’t do the same as us but we’re on a large scale. It would be nice to just see all of us get together somewhere and set things aside and move forward. Because arma 4 is soon. Still a couple to a few years but we need these things more than ever.

There are quite a few of us who know the workbench and enfusion like the back of our hand now. And if A4 is anything like the same. We are on track for total preparation right now. I’m 100% certain I personally will be able to do a lot as soon as the game releases.

[round spruce]

I would say that I feel terrible having this winding conversation in a channel called #ip_rights_violations, our discussion as it meanders only exists tangentially to the channel topic. Ideally, there would be another channel that is more generalized, specific for modders - there are a lot of channels in the Discord here, but none that quite match this conversation's requirements.

[twin crane]

We can leave it here @round spruce but @midnight compass please consider the above as this would be amazing.

Just don’t wanna throw this channel too far off topic but the idea is there.

[rustic copper]

BI developers have always been active on Discord and the forums, and with Reforger I've only seen more interactions, you just have to check the right channels.

However nobody in the modding community has extra "perks" (other than perhaps a blue name), although some have found a job at BI or were able to get out a CDLC because of their long support and active contribution to the community.

And #other_ip_topics is for general IP/Copyright/Trademark discussions, while this one is for BI related infringements.
Not sure how many channels we need more 🤷

[twin crane]

How do you even achieve blue

[gaunt stirrup]

given to those who contribute immensely to arma modding as a whole
its not time based last I read

[rustic copper]

Being active in the community (discord/forums), being helpful to others by providing support, releasing a mod or helping with mods helps a lot, and although time isn't a big factor it does show how committed you are to the community (and not just a one-day-fly).

If your name is being noticed, in a positive way, than there's a chance to get invited.

[umbral radish]

Uh Arma 3 is now in the same boat with the Xbox Ally

[chilly silo]

I just thought it was because I'm old and grumpy.

[paper prawn]

It helps 😉

[devout umbra]

Seems like a massive amount of hassle is derived from BI’s insistence on catering to consoles and making them cross play. One can hope that ArmA 4 drops as a standalone.

[chilly silo]

Nope. Its derived from BI's insistence to follow the law and their dislike of being sued to bankruptcy.

[midnight compass]

!mute 178524960053133312 7d stop the speculation.

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @devout umbra!! Ò_Ó
krihelion#0000 now has 3 infractions.

[chilly silo]

All this IP law gets ignored by the community until they get bit in the arse. Or the theft of IP happens to them.

The reality is that these laws are a fact and are based on fair and equal treatment. Not to mention basic manners and respect for people's work.

[paper prawn]

The saddest thing is that someone will break the rules, not be banned but then not say anything here to quell the rush of accusations that BI did something wrong. You do something wrong, fess up, stop the cavalcade of hate 😦

[midnight compass]

For the rest and in the future. If you have nothing constructive to add regarding the IP rights topics. Do not post here.
This is not for ramblings or random topics. Of all the channels here, this is the channel that can affect others and is the most serious one within the discord.

[proud galleon]

If someone uses a model i have made for Dayz in arma reforger, is it against AR Workshop TOS? If I allow use as orginal creator of the model also in Arma reforger, is it still against tos? And if i dont can i request a takedown?

[rustic copper]

If you created the model (indepent for what purpose), and someone else uses it without your permission, then you can send a DMCA request / takedown request.

If you created the model for DayZ:SA and want to release it yourself on Reforger as well, then there is no problem at all (as you own all the rights to release it wherever you want).

[soft egret]

You suggest creating free resources that complement the game, so there won't be any gameplay here.
What? Why can a free mod not have any gameplay?
All the legit-ly made terrains do not provide gameplay?

I don't understand what you are implying with that statement? You mean people cannot provide any "gameplay" content, if they are not allowed to illegally rip content from other games?

Let's make an asset store out of the workshop, where people will add their boxes and the like. This is a very strange position.
You are massively missconstruing what I said.

If I want to create something, why do I need Arma or DayZ?
You don't, and I don't think I or anyone else said that? If you want to create something for Arma, you need Arma, if you don't then you don't. I'd think that's obvious?

Why is it that Arma Reforger Workshop
Because the license field is literally just a dropdown with no checks. It would waste too much time to implement checks for that.
Modders are responsible for the content they upload, that includes not choosing invalid licenses.

[soft egret]

That is wrong. Valve gives the developer control over their workshop.

[rustic copper]

Roughly 2 years ago it was possible to download mods, without owning the game, through SteamCMD.
However this has been patched, for obvious reasons 😉

[paper prawn]

Has not been possible since at least 2018...

[soft egret]

What do you want? You want to know if wolf's mods are okey to use?

A definitive answer, whether, in the future, maybe the next 10 or 20 years. Potentially. Wolf might add a ripped asset to his mod and get himself banned making you loose access to the mod.
You want to know that? How do you imagine anyone other than wolf being able to give you that answer?

At the moment the mod is up. If it doesn't contain ip rights violating content, it will stay up. If wolf adds some violating content, it will go down.
But neither BI nor the mods here can tell you if he will do that, or if he already did that and no-one has discovered it yet.
It is possible that a modder has been found to have stolen content, and is currently in a "warned" phase, given a chance to remove offending content. If he does that, it would be fine.

But wolf would know the answers to all of this, if you want the answer, ask him.

[soft egret]

there should be a form which players can fill out or just a button on a mod page that can then be used to report potential ip violations.
That form, and the button are already there.
Though 90% of uses of the report form, are people complaining that a mod is broken, or posting bug reports into them because they don't understand it.

Bis legal team should’ve been consulted first then the community management can take over and tell a developer that their mod will be taken down and an announcement can be made if warranted.
That IS how it works.

[soft egret]

Are we in violation of the AR Workshop rules?
I think your question is answered by
they did not grant us a license for the intellectual property

Now if you made the assets by yourself anyways, just don't put the name "warhammer" onto your mod.
Don't use their IP, and you won't need a license for their IP.

[soft egret]

If you want to discuss privately (as one person), you can use #discord_tickets
We can invite mario into there if you want.
But whether mario would have the time to spend on actually reading and replying is another thing

But I also remember. There was a discord for modders, like you describe.
Where BI once had some event to ask modders what they need and such, has been quite a while ago

We have "veterans" on this discord, which generally are veteran modders, which have their own channel.
A channel for lets say "approved" reforger modders, to directly communicate might be possible.
But letting every modder into it would not work, because that ends up like this channel.

[paper prawn]

Hmm, did we ever see the promised blog posts with summaries from all the roundtables held in that?

[soft egret]

Another option is for moderators to be more agressive with trolls and people spreading false information in channels like this.
But people love to shoot "power abuse" when we do that, and try to create some big drama out of it

[gaunt stirrup]

I agree with what Idio said yesterday, a private section/discord for "verified" mod makers just makes it harder for newbies to get into the space. Its probs counter productive to do some kind of split like what Vape was describing

[soft egret]

I think this channel is fine IF we get rid of all the nonsense that's also being posted/cluttered in here

Maybe we need the ability to remove some people from this channel

not punish/ban/mute them. But remove their access, to this channel specifically.
Or ability to write messages in this channel. But these people would probably just move to some other random channel, ping people there, and try to drag the conversation to over there?

[faint nacelle]

1d mutes have somewhat worked as a reminder.

[flint geyser]

I am 50/50 on a dedicated/approved channel because I've seen in other discords where such things existed it was no different, but I admit there was proportionally less drama focused traffic just because the number of active members was lower, so if anything that's easier to moderate

If you have some kind of BI account/Discord linking then the role could be given upon successful mod uploads or whatever

[crude trail]

nexus mods does this, it’s a verified discord server once you’re a recognized mod author (think it’s like 1000 downloads) and it helps to be able to discuss it only with people who actually mod

[twin crane]

Too many normal players vs modders in here to have a normal conversation about modding without someone with no knowledge butting in the conversation and starting a fire

[flint geyser]

We've fixed the channel, guys

[faint nacelle]

Nexus is not really great example. they host all kinds of violating stuff

[twin crane]

I suggested BI run it as this would lead to it being monitored directly for infringements

[crude trail]

They have like 4 moderators for every single moddable game out there 😭

They’ve been quick with anything I’ve reported so idk

[faint nacelle]

well It is where the A3 mods that cant upload to steam go 😅

[crude trail]

cuz Bohemia rules mostly on maybes nexus does stuff when they get contacted

[faint nacelle]

steam expects you to have right to upload the content same way as nexus does

its not BI rules really

[crude trail]

many other steam workshops have asset rips from many other games, it feels like the arma 3 one is the most moderated in that sense, and it doesn’t make sense that Steam would leave everything else alone and only go after arma 3

[paper prawn]

BI police the ARMA 3 workshop when they have to

And the DZSA one for that matter

[vivid scarab]

Uploads / Downloads might be a bit of a gamble admittedly. Being featured by BI via ComRep would be a good way to spot people for inclusion, if a channel absolutely needed to be made.

[rustic copper]

Just put an invite link at the end of TOS which people have to read before submitting a mod; so people who read it know how to get access 🤣

But all jokes aside; the problem is not the people with legitimate questions/feedback, but those who have no idea what it's all about and take their "I got this from a random Reddit post"-opinion to cause unneeded drama...
So even if a special channel/server would exist, the problem would still be here.

[vivid scarab]

There are Discord bots / apps you can use which keep a post pinned to the bottom of the channel at all times - i.e. the most recent post - that could help mitigate it a bit. Even if it's just a short summary, i.e. "this channel is specifically for reporting violations; to discuss issue [X] or [Y], go to channel [Z]." You'll have people persist regardless, but it's a more glaring, in the face "go to the right spot" sort of thing.

[soft egret]

The workday has ended, don't expect reply before tomorrow

[twin crane]

Actually good question what is the normal work time for BI converted to EST would be good to know the hours

[frigid heart]

~9-5 czech time converted to EST

[paper prawn]

0300 - 1100 EDT right now, EDT in summer, EST winter (most here just say ET assuming you would know whether it was daylight savings if you lived here 😉 )

[soft egret]

<t:1749542400:t> to <t:1749564000:t> +- a couple hours

[paper prawn]

Yeah, that would be EST... Which was ofc the question asked, we are just using EDT til November 😉

[soft egret]

It auto converts to your local timezone

[paper prawn]

Wrongly if you mean what I see in discord... it shows 0400 for me which would be 1000CET...

[frigid heart]

+- a couple hours

[soft egret]

yep, thats correct. Does not account for lunchbreaks and vacation time and stuff. But its roughly what to expect

[paper prawn]

Anyway, completely OT, but basically is 6 hours if on US East coast apart from a couple of weeks in March and October/November when it's an hour less or more

[wicked spoke]

This is good!

[soft egret]

Yeah I would like that, but don't know how we could do that.
Like I know how to do it in the bot.
But getting the BI backend webdevs to implement that, I doubt it

[flint geyser]

Never ever

[rustic copper]

Sounds like a skill issue...
Workshop API already uses the accounts, so connecting it to a simple bot would take 10min to implement...

[tidal lintel]

No bootlegs
No replicas

As I can see, based on Russian legislation, it is forbidden to monetize monuments if they are less than 70 years old. So, did the studio pay money for the monetization of these monuments? The first one was dedicated to the imprisoned Jews, and the other was just a beautiful landmark of the city.

[prime stratus]

Where is this?

[tidal lintel]

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Норильский_исправительно-трудовой_лагерь
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Медведи_(скульптурная_композиция)

[prime stratus]

Thanks but I kinda meant on the map 😅
I will read these tho

[tidal lintel]

Monuments in Russia become "Public Domain" only 70 years after they were created.
Of course, you can get permission from the author of the monument or the organization that commissioned the creation of this monument, but I doubt that this has been done.

[midnight compass]

!mute 143346278154240000 7d you have been warned multiple times, stop inciting and speculating. It does not work how you have complained about in the past and right now. If it was an issue it would not have been in the game, and DZ not beinf allowed is not related to what you are refering. Stop it and leaving, it does not matter how much you complain, it will not change.

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @tidal lintel!! Ò_Ó

[midnight compass]

For everyone else

Read this again.
#ip_rights_violations message

[rapid thicket]

@midnight compass today i join to DarkGru server and saw that one of the playable factions on this server is CSAT, a faction from Arma 3. Do I understand correctly that this violates Bohemia Interactive copyright rights?

[rancid pine]

I mean ive had that faction for over 2 years at this point and its been featured in several youtube videos that im sure was seen by BI. I would assume its tolerated at this point but then again there were some ukraine/Russia servers that snuck by too.

[frozen jasper]

as well as Chernarus with clearly dayz satmap/heightmap was in workshop for 2 years and it definitely did not go unnoticed
(I also don't understand why servers with the current conflict existing so well)

[twin crane]

I don’t think current conflicts should be an existing thing in the workshop especially the maps in a war torn setting

[remote rivet]

I'm sure the civilians whose children are being bombed appreciate your stance against digital conflicts. Go touch grass

[paper prawn]

It apparently did. But do not discount the satmap, that was originally drawn by someone over hours/days. Doing a satmap and the effort it takes, together with the layers map is one reason I never completed my ARMA 3 map

They could be the most difficult parts of making a map and they are all hand drawn

[frosty charm]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-walk-away-weirdo-touch-gif-26494423

[hollow needle]

tell that to the russia war fanboys😆

itll be the falluja for games in the coming years

[midnight compass]

!mute 201766361389596672 1d See the pinned message.

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @remote rivet!! Ò_Ó
_aphex#0000 now has 7 infractions.

[midnight compass]

7 infractions

[midnight compass]

!mute 933717140144545845 1d See the pinned message. #ip_rights_violations message

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @hollow needle!! Ò_Ó
tvgck#0000 now has 14 infractions.

[frigid heart]

14

[native narwhal]

ai ai ai there gotta be some maximum for a permaban no?

[frozen jasper]

I'm not saying that it's easy part, I understand that perfectly well. I'm saying that the actions were taken after a very long period of time for some reason, despite the fact that this detail is obvious, and the map was pretty popular in game.

[coral torrent]

Being long on the workshop or being popular does not justify breaking our or IP rules. Contrary to popular believe we don't watch a live feed of the workshop updates being published in all our offices. So items may be widely used by the community yet entirely unknown to us. Until someone reports them for something

[vivid stone]

surely there is a lesson you guys can learn here to pick up on things sooner? have a more attentive eye for keywords (such as Chernarus, apparently) that are at higher risk of violating IP?

the longer something is up the more damage it will do to the wider modding community as more mod, terrain, scenario makers pick things up as dependencies and spend time on things that get removed by extension for no fault of their own

[minor hearth]

you guys didn't see chernarus for two years? 😭

[vivid stone]

seeing something up for two years is enough time for 99% of modders to assume it's safe to use

[coral torrent]

Did I say anything about a specific mod? No.

[ruby swallow]

It never is. A modder can update their content at any time and upload violating content at a later point. Heck, the specific mod got updated constantly and who knows at what point the violating parts were actually included.

[vivid stone]

I'm not talking about a specific mod either, trying to discuss the process to make things less painful in the future, Chernarus was merely mentioned as the most obvious example

[frigid heart]

Its impossible for us to moderate all possible violating content just by looking at mod names etc, in this case chernarus itself (using a2 LDP data) would have been okay. the mod wasnt called "ChernarusPlus" (where the terrain was ripped from)

[junior prism]

but no one is expecting you to moderate all possible content, but the high profile and popular ones. if there are very popular mods in the community that you are totally not aware of, like Arkensor mentioned, this means your processes should be improved.
otherwise you will perpetually cause collateral damage in the community and outrage among players. it's not about whether you should/could/have to enforce IP rights itself at all.

[frigid heart]

We are aware the system isn't perfect currently, hence also the open position to increase the team. but even then just checking popular and high profile mods is an insane amount of work, mods update constantly and every update violating content could be added.
https://careers.bohemia.net/position/workshop-content-curator-modding

[leaden cipher]

And also as stated earlier by Mario (i think) dozens of mods get reported daily, and that is not for infringements but people reporting them for bug fixes/missing features or just for the fun of it as they don't like it, so the load is very big filtering trough everything for the staff as they manually need to check every report. (Correct me if I am wrong Arkensor)

[junior prism]

of course, you can't do anything if someone decides to start adding offending content in an already popular mod. but then the decisions (and the reasons) should be also clear to the public, otherwise you fuel up speculations and drama.
current approach to handling these situations (silently dropping mods and then saying "f... off, you are not concerned, and the reasons for removal are between us and the modder") is as bad as it can be, from PR and community management perspective.
there are still a lot of people out there that are 100% convinced sergiivka (or whatever it was called) was dropped because it was based on UA, not because it had copyright problems.
just think how many players or modders such bad fame will eventually drive away.

[midnight compass]

The mod was checked a long time ago, and it was not noticed at first it was ChernarusPlus.

Until someone reported something unique to ChernarusPlus that could not have been even a eye-to-eye recreation, it is then when it was banned.

[minor hearth]

All he did a long time ago was the north, which is unique to chernarus plus 😭 it’s what he started with

[midnight compass]

Mods have to be researched first before acting on them, it is just not take a report and if it feel believable ban it.

There are mods that have taken a whole week just to ban.

Anyway due to this, things skip by sometimes.

But eventually they get caught on later on.

The modder knew he was in the wrong, yet still did it.

The fault lies on him, the DayZ SA EULA is pretty clear

It has not changed, was never changed. And yet he breached it knowingly.

[midnight compass]

Yeah I think the reason should be available on the workshop page of the mod.

Currently it only says "Banned by Administrator"

Public announcement is there and developed, just not presented.

[vivid scarab]

Positions like this are fascinating, although it does seem like something that might be better aimed at remote work? Relocating to Prague isn't entirely practical for all of us, although the city is quite beautiful. 😆

[midnight compass]

It also does not help that most of the time the modder goes silent and never explain himself what the reason he received on the email was.

[midnight compass]

It's fully remote if the candidate wants it

Prague or CZ is not obligatory.

Can be employee or contract.

[vivid scarab]

Oh really? That's actually interesting to know - I did consider applying a while back, but saw Office = Prague and just switched off. Thank you for clarifying Mario - will have to give that a serious think. 🙂

[rapid thicket]

Please, can you answer the question?

[junior prism]

my point is completely unrelated to that particular case (if it was in breach then it was in breach and needs to go, simple as that in my POV).
it's just that I am noticing a pattern here that repeats every few months and it's always rooted in lack of communication from your side. if you don't do that, there will be gossips and speculation, which eventually leads to flame, mutes and general mess. and I'm sure that neither you (BI) or us (community) want it.

[midnight compass]

It's Arma-verse. It's still within arma and it is minimal things you are pointing. In this specific case it is tolerated.

You can't compare this with ripping ChernarusPlus.

Or ripping a full 3D asset.

[junior prism]

that would be a step in the right direction. maybe also some news feed that would summarize recent workshop removals?
this could also help server owners to look out for potentially shady content, as we know reuploads and repeating violations are a thing.

[midnight compass]

I think the asset ban reason on the page is enough.

[rapid thicket]

Do I understand correctly that Arma-verse elements are allowed in other of Arma games (without ripping)? But that rule doesn't apply to DayZ, yes?

[midnight compass]

I also would not want the user to get flamed/paraded.

[midnight compass]

Okay. You are reaching a lot

[frozen jasper]

From your description only for similar layout and name it should be banned, but clearly DayZ map layout was not noticed for 2 years? Recreating BI maps is allowed? And your previous statements are not valid now?

[midnight compass]

!mute 755874361365364816 7d stop reaching and speculating.

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @rapid thicket!! Ò_Ó

[midnight compass]

Don't push the tolerance on certain things.

It is pretty clear when something could be an issue or not.

If you do not want to be in trouble, then just do not use an existing IP that is not directly licensed to you for a specific use.

[junior prism]

bring back shame

[midnight compass]

It is not wanted for DayZ to be recreated on Arma.

You can make your own zombie survival, but make it your design.

Just do not make DayZ.

[midnight compass]

You can use BI maps. But only those that came from properly licensed data packages from us.

If we took an older map in another game, then upgraded it and such. Then that upgraded version is not usable for you.

But the outdated one, that was in fact released for your use. Is usable.

The other mod is banned due to not following this, and it is banned now and that is it.

Whenever it should have been banned before, is not your issue nor your concern.

The only thing that you should now is that it is a ban offense, and it will be dealt with.

@frozen jasper The DZ announcement I mentioned, is valid in full.

And it will be fully enforced.

Regardless of past.

[frozen jasper]

I understand, and from it I have a question. You stated that name and simmilar layout (or bootleg) is forbidden, but literally Chernarus Plus was banned only when some unique thing was found after 2 years. And it has always been a recreation of the DayZ map.

[midnight compass]

#ip_rights_violations message

It was announced given that there is no tolerance. DayZ assets and content are to not be used this way.

This topic ends here.

Anyone else dragging it will be muted.

Clear it for other IP questions.

[vivid stone]

it is the issue and concern of anyone who makes a mod using dependencies, no? otherwise why would I risk building on top of anyone elses work as a single modder?

[midnight compass]

The banned user mod does not ban your mod.

[vivid stone]

but if my mod is a collection of scenarios on that mod's terrain for instance, my mod is now worthless and effectively banned by extension

[midnight compass]

It's the nature of working with other people dependencies.

It's the risk of dependencies like any other software even.

If the modder leaves and his mod was restricted license

Then it's dead.

If the modder does not update the mod, is heavily broken and it is licensed in a way that it does effectively not allow for a fix.

Then it's dead until he/she updates it

If the modder decides to remove the content you were using, then it's the same. Etc

[vivid stone]

I understand that, I am just trying to highlight the increases collateral damage that comes with something being left up for a long time - because trying to frame it as only an issue that only affects BI and the modder in question is naive to the way modding is actually being done on the platform. I'm not trying to doubt your right to have taken a mod down or take it down in the future, but it would be good to see BI be more on top of these things (as much as possible, not expecting perfection) to help cultivate a healthy modding scene

[midnight compass]

We know.

But that does not mean that we do not have to take down things.

Enforcement has to happen anyway.

It's been the cases before with DMCAs

It's also WHY

We reach the modder first

and allow them to take down offending content

and if they remove it from their mod then they can continue.

Ban is usually last step when the modder does not comply.

Or when the offense was considered serious misbehavior or action.

This is also why it is very unlikely to get a banned mod back.

As the ban is usually last resort.

Bans also happen right away if the user had previous infractions.

On either Reforger or any other BI game.

If it was shown beforehand that the modder did it with intent and knowledge. Then it is also banned right away.

If the modder was warned to not do something beforehand as well. Then he does it anyway then he also gets instant ban.

As I have said before, INTENT matters a lot when taking action.

And this is in order to be lenient.

[frozen jasper]

From my memory it's more like ban first, then explanation (like Wolf buildings mod or Ram), I know only one mod that gets warnings

[midnight compass]

We could just ban on first occurrence.

[midnight compass]

Ram was due to intent

He made it on purpose

As I said.

World Buildings was unbanned due to it not being handled this way

That was a mistake from the person handling it.

He then got contacted about it.

[frozen jasper]

Some people take money for on server benefits on purpose, knowing that against rules

[midnight compass]

Which is why he removed chernarus mod

and is supposed to remove offending content on the building pack

[dull scarab]

@midnight compass , do you have official rights from copywrite department to judge where ip violation?

[midnight compass]

That does not make it right, report it.

For servers. Report on Monetization page please.

https://www.bohemia.net/monetization

[frozen jasper]

That will be the 4th or 5th warning?

[midnight compass]

If it's an approved server, then report here https://www.bohemia.net/monetization/approved/armareforger

[midnight compass]

If you were to read my profile description you would see why I am the one answering modders and the official point of contact for them.

So any questions feel free to ask. As long as they are constructive or relevant.

If it's complaints then this is not the place.

If it's related to DayZ

Then again, this topic ended up there.

There is no permission of any kind. As in the announcement.

[dull scarab]

so, you dont have any rights to change or adapt licence points?

[midnight compass]

I do. So if you want policy changes you can also contact me.

But it is very unlikely to change.

It can, but very unlikely.

But if you do see things that could in fact be for the better.

By all means express it.

Just do it constructively.

Server Monetization is one of such things.

[dull scarab]

Can some one approve this?

[midnight compass]

It is now available.

[midnight compass]

What do you mean?

[dull scarab]

i mean, the rights changes 5 times in a week

[midnight compass]

The rights have not changed.

You never had rights for DayZ for example to use in AR.

As stated in the announcement. Nowhere it says there was a change.

It says Clarification

Nowhere it says "It is not longer" and such wording.

@dull scarab rules of thumb.
#ip_rights_violations message

[twin crane]

As a modder myself this is why I make my own functions and features and do not rely on others. You will not catch me making a dependency mod for that reason.

It’s not Bohemias fault as they have to do their part in enforcing these things it’s their job and responsibility to uphold their ToS. But it is the job of the modder themselves to respect it.

[vivid stone]

yes and I would do the same for scripts, etc, but if noone uses dependencies then how are terrains supposed to get new scenarios, etc? or do we just have a workshop full of terrains with base conflict only and everything else on everon?

[twin crane]

You have the ability to make your own.

The argument is should I or should I not.

The real answer is if you are using a dependency your mod is “Dependent” on the assets or functions within that. And you acknowledge their liscense protecting their work along side their ability to follow the rules. It’s a judgement call at the end of the day.

[vivid stone]

I know? that doesn't change the fact that people will continue to build work on the back of others, and become, like I said, collateral damage?

I am not saying to stop taking stuff down because it has dependencies lol, but acting like dependent mods don't exist and aren't useful is dumb. yes I could make my own terrain to put a scenario on it, but when that is 100x more work than making the scenario itself...

[twin crane]

If you aren’t willing to take the risks. Don’t do it. You are forewarned. This isn’t a “you” problem. The only thing that can prevent this is by doing it your self or ensuring their is no violating work before hand

[vivid stone]

what does that have to do with me wanting BI to be more on the ball with takedowns in the future?

[twin crane]

Everyone should be respective of the terms of service yes.

[ruby swallow]

There is always the option to not rely on a single modder, but rather to strive for more collaborative open source project that anyone can contribute to for such core addons. CBA is a good example of this in A3.

[vivid stone]

again, for scripts etc, yes sure. but please, do point me in the direction of a collaborated, open source terrain, I'd be interested to see one

[midnight compass]

As I mentioned. Bans are usually done when it's definitive.

And modder usually have chances to remove the issue

By this it means that they are given a chance to remove a problematic asset from a mod that contained it.

It is not refering to removing the mod itself.

You are asking for something that already happens, for a long time. But you do not see it.

As for the reason being stated publicly on the workshop page. That is a reasonable request.

[twin crane]

As Mario stated they are very fair within reason of what the violation may be. Its severity scaled for punishment and you do get atleast a chance to make corrective measures.

[ruby swallow]

Maybe CUP at some point. Not open source afaik, but maintained by a team of modders.

[midnight compass]

Do not use StolenLiberty / LibertyInteractive "Open Sourced" terrain.
The terrain itself was banned beforehand by author wide ban. So the content is also banned to avoid ban evasion.

Also do not use the assets they released within that, as they shared bought assets without proper license to do so. Making them also be in breach of that.

[rancid pine]

Hey so IF you guys end up wanting me to remove the CSAT faction ( a logo and name) can you just let me know it will take a minute to swap instead of banning it first lmao

[faint nacelle]

A mod might be legit for 10 years and people make 100 mods on top of it. And then the author decides to add somethig against the rules. BI can't foresee that.

Yes everyone wants stable environment. But Id say it's also on modders to keep each other informed and in check.
The responsibility of rule abiding content making is on the maker.

[finite zinc]

That's why we need to have more open source with permissive licenses as that will always allow the community to just fork it and continue in case there would be troubles with the current "owner".

[twin crane]

You should be fine I don’t/havent see an issue with it from BI as I’ve been doing LDF.

It’s just fictoral factions from past games they’ve created. FIA is one of those factions as well.

[twin crane]

As long as you’re within the boundaries of ARMA titles depicting past game events or stuff for gameplay purposes you should be good.

You just can’t lead players to believe that this content is created by Bohemia interactive such as CONTACT I had to remove the reference to ARMA 3 as to not confuse players with the real DLC. Their work is still protected by them.

[soft egret]

If the flag texture file has been taken out of A3, that would be copyright on that though.
Though that might very well be in the "not allowed, but tolerated" scenario. Like how we tend to tolerate retextures of A3 vanilla things in A3 mods. Legally you cannot take our texture and modify it and republish it in your mod, practically, as long as its civil and stays within the same game we tolerate it. But we would still have the right to take it down even without providing any reasoning, because its not been allowed to begin with.
Similar to how RHS forbids derivatives, but chooses to tolerate the ones that don't cause a problem.

Should always ask before doing that though

[twin crane]

Also that^

[rancid pine]

I googled CSAT and saved a random flag pic from there

[paper prawn]

If you have Russians in CSAT and it's not set after 2039 then BI will ban for breaking the ARMAverse timeline 😛

[frigid heart]

not to be anal about it but just because its indexed on google doesnt mean its not a ripped asset from our files(or someone elses), always make sure you have the appropriate licenses to use images etc when pulling them from google images

[rustic copper]

Arma is also jumping on the "multiverse" hype train, so everything is possible 😅

[rancid pine]

If you want my honest answer I didn’t even know CSAT at the time was from arma 😂😂 I was a console guy when we came up with what to do for the opfor side and someone said they thought csat would be cool and I played along like I knew so I just googled it and saved the picture. But again it’s just one of those things that like if the picture is ripped or an IP issue I would gladly take it down. Takes literally 2 mins

[frigid heart]

what dedmen said, likely tolerated but idk not my wheelhouse. just wanted to clarify that google images arent just a free for all

[carmine dew]

quick question. I want to make some stalker buildings by hand in blender for my map.

Can I? I so how similar can I make them? Will it be an issue if some of them are too accurate to the original?

I wont remix or use actual game stuff just building stuff from reference.

Textures will be different ofc. I am guessing it wont cause issues.

[vague thunder]

Post apocalyptic eastern european buildings in general?
No issue
Stalker in specific?
Possible issues, but unlikely from how you describe. You should get someone to confirm though
Getting multiple sources, and not matching any exactly should avoid any issues

[carmine dew]

I knew it. I wanted some buildings to be very similar but it wil cause issues because people will recognize them right away. I will have to change them a lot.

[vague thunder]

I'm not a legal expert, or an IP expert
Recognizable buildings is probably getting close to the edge
But if you can find an alternate source, or real images of the building, or something very close, then there shouldn't be issues

[carmine dew]

Yeah it would be considered on edge so I dont want to risk it.

[twin crane]

@slim dock you cannot tell me you’ve not been attempting to use AI to backwards engineer others work. The only way an AI can even script remotely is if the programmer knows what they are doing.

There’s blatant evidence in the spacing that you’ve been copy and pasting.

And there’s clearly AI generic text and emojis

If you want help just ask. Do not steal.

[slim dock]

Ive used AI to help compile the scripts together, but i'm not backwards engineering anything. The only thing I re-used from anyone else were the code Ben already called out, and that mod is off of the workshop already.

[twin crane]

Ok and where’d you receive the logic for this FastRope system. Because it is not yours and seems very specific in how it is set up. Chat GPT alone does not know ENFORCE or anything enfusion related it would spit you unknown functions.

[slim dock]

I literally spent hours sitting there working through functions back and forth with Chat GPT, trying to figure out what the real functions in Enforce are called, finding them in the in game script editor, and making it work. GPT was able to get close some of the time, other times it took much longer. Thats also why the Fast Rope mod is still very much WIP, it is not fully functional

It often does spit unknownn functions, and then you have to go into the script editor in workbench and see if you can find a function that does something close to what it's telling you to do. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't and have to either mod a different class/component, or figure out a different way to handle it. I'm not sure why this is turning into such a big thing, over something A. Isn't on the workshop anymore, B. I already told Ben I would completely re-write it as to not use any of his code, C. I really didn't expect would be this big of a thing. At this point, i'll just take all my stuff off the workshop if it's going to be like this.

[twin crane]

Do not spit it Ben’s script that is why this is a big deal because it’s clear that this is likely going to be the case. Because it seems already to me you’ve been doing this.

[slim dock]

I have said repeatedly that I am re-writing it to be 100% free of his code, i'm not going to sit here and keep repeating myself. Somebody makes a mistake one time and its "clear this is likely going to be the case". Thats a ridiculous statement to make of someone that you do not know at all. Like I said before, if I was doing something shady and trying to sneak some of Ben's code by, I wouldn't have said a word about him in the mod description. This is ridiculous.

[twin crane]

But you are not the one writing these scripts.

[slim dock]

I have written every single one of them other than the 12 lines in that oxygen script he linked. Idc if you believe it or not, that is the case.

[twin crane]

Hard to believe.

[slim dock]

Alright, forget it. If this is how its going to be, i'm taking my stuff off the workshop. Its not worth the drama.

[twin crane]

Ask for help next time. Do not steal others work and take credit for it. If you really want to do this scuba stuff you probably could have asked Ben before doing what you did. A lot of modders are willing to help out.

All of the stress, drama, and wasted time could be avoided.

[slim dock]

My stuff is gone, nothing to worry about at this point. Won't be a next time.

[queen lodge]

Dude don't be discouraged and quit modding just like that. My Vape Blew Up is a relentless troll I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously.

[twin crane]

Weird but ok. I guess stealing is fine.

[midnight compass]

Next time you do this with this behavior you will get a ban @twin crane.
This is not how to handle these things, and this channel is not for exposing people. We handle things over private channel with infringing modders for a reason, sometimes it is just a misunderstanding. Doing it this way harms the community and confuses people as these things are case to case basis. This is your last warning.

[real valley]

And just like that he's gone. Something potentially useful in the void; yikes

[meager sleet]

best to check the mods license to see if the author allows it

[paper prawn]

Do you mean the vanilla ARMA 3 Strider?

If so and if you are not doing things like copying models, etc then see this #ip_rights_violations message

[blissful thorn]

Make sure to check the license it's uploaded under and whether the owner of the mod allows modifications like that. also what strider are you talking about ?

[blissful thorn]

would you have a moment to please check your dm

[bronze edge]

Is someone going to approach this guy with an apology? Dude was called out for a small issue and literally got bullied off the server and removed everything from Enfusion Workshop. That’s wrong.

[blissful thorn]

stealing is not a small issue tho. and sadly happends to many times for most of us this start to become a daily fight. so yes some people react diffrent on it then others

[bronze edge]

It was over a misunderstanding from what I have read. And this is wrong. Bullying someone off the server and such.

[blissful thorn]

the person in qeustion has taken straight up code from some one , that is not a misunderstanding tho

[bronze edge]

Yet he had already removed it from the workshop is my point. That’s where the misunderstanding is.

[blissful thorn]

the removing part was done because he wanted to replace it with AI script that was feed all the info of the old script so that wouldnt have changed anything

[bronze edge]

Eh he said he used it to compile. Either way bullying someone off the server isn’t okay.

[blissful thorn]

if you dont want to get hatted by the arma community dont steal stuff thats a simple rule to follow

[bronze edge]

If he said he used it to compile then he did. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[blissful thorn]

dont say bulying someone is a good thing i wasnt there for that , and i dont care enough to sit in this channel 24/7 but i get the hate on people stealing sadly it happends to much and it takes a while before BI sometimes even does something . and that does make some people triggerd

[bronze edge]

The issue was it wasn’t even their work. They had no place to do this. They just did it to do it.

[blissful thorn]

a reason i dont sit in here 24/7 , because its sometimes a sad cat fight in here

but i do stand against people stealing other peoples work and in some cases they even sell it as thier own

[echo orchid]

offtopic, use #discord_server

[midnight compass]

He is not a BI employee nor a moderator

The modder that did this was warned.

[blissful thorn]

could you check your dm please , i have send you info about a issue of abuse of monitization rules . i have also sended it to BI email but i have had no reponse so im not sure if anything is beeing done with it or not

[quiet patio]

Folks, this was Wrottz’s first foray into modding. The code he reused wasn’t meant as theft, he simply wanted to add features to a mod our community already enjoys and share the results with anyone who might benefit. Mistakes were made, but none were malicious.

Sadly, the public shaming that followed, complete with insults and accusations, has probably driven away someone who could have grown into a valuable contributor. A respectful, private conversation would have let him correct the problem without the spectacle of a public crucifixion. By choosing outrage over dialogue, the only thing that was accomplished here was turning away someone that had potential and talent, and a passion for making things we all could use and enjoy.

Next time, maybe just do a little better. Teach, don't preach.

[grim wind]

could have asked the original creator or use it as a dep

[leaden cipher]

@quiet patio see Mario's reaction following: #ip_rights_violations message

[left abyss]

Hey! Could u check ur dms, plz?

[arctic magnet]

You know that they are based off real buildings, right?

Believe it or not, GSC did not build and nor do they own the buildings in Chernobyl

[vague thunder]

Well, depends on the building.
If you can find a real reference, then no issues. If it is a building unique to Stalker, then it depends.

[bronze edge]

I don’t think there’s really any building that is unique to stalker. Every building in my experience is true to life. Then again, I’m only referencing the places I’ve seen irl which is a very small part compared to what is available in-game. But everything I have seen has either been in the game or was completely left out.

[plain drum]

Are we allowed to pay modders for their work now?

[prime stratus]

No

[plain drum]

seriously?? even if they're helping develop cosmetic things for our servers?