references♥_1450-1470

[terse bronze]

How's the strap stupid doe

[frozen plover]

Doesn’t look right and you could achieve the same effect with a pin mechanism attaching the top plate to the plackart

[terse bronze]

But historical cuirasses did have a leather strap attaching the placard to the breastplate

The rivet fill pretty much the same function (the rivet can slide to allow movements)

[terse bronze]

Pretty much was the most widespread way too, even in HRE lands where the riveting was more "popular" you still find strapped cuirasses there too

[lone osprey]

lol just looks italian and then like western european since french, netherlandish, spanish, english, and german all imported italian armour . . . .

and then germans often kept the insides of their arm guards together using leather straps under the plates and you had to strap them onto your body with the same straps kek

so i dunno bad opinion

[frozen plover]

Requires less metal and you don’t need the extra leather at the front just on the inside if needed makes more sense

There’s a pin in the middle that holds them together that’s what I mean

[terse bronze]

Medieval people were SO stupid !!!

[lone osprey]

did they know anything???!

[terse bronze]

If I had a time machine I would go back in time and teach them that their way don't make sense to me

[silver grotto]

How would that require any less metal?

[turbid shadow]

You will have placards and YOU will like them

[frozen plover]

It’s a small pin compared to an entire belt buckle think about it

[terse bronze]

it's really not that deep buddy

[latent drift]

can the pins be removable?

or are they more permanent

cause if they are permanent then it would make sense to have a belt buckle to be able to remove the placard with ease

[robust tendon]

biggest nitpick i ever did see

[vivid solar]

Not in brave stand

That's how you get fuckin murdered

[terse bronze]

haubergeon will be my only dorsal protection idc 'bout nun

[frozen plover]

https://tenor.com/view/pussinboots-puss-in-boots-job-application-job-application-gif-9448200799441894941

[cold atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/jesus-ballin-mars-bars-gif-19910027

[frozen plover]

NOOOOOOOO

[vivid solar]

Why cause yourself the pain

[terse bronze]

i love pain (au chocolat)

https://tenor.com/view/chocolatine-painauchoc-painauchocolat-gif-6331075

[vivid solar]

Touche

[peak trout]

Has the full version of the game been released?

[verbal bramble]

Willie found a new job

[next orchid]

strap can have more flexibility

[vocal vale]

jarvis send that pietro monte quote about sliding rivets malfunctioning under repeated blows or whatever

[latent drift]

#leatherforthewin

[quaint shore]

idk man the rivets look kinda sexy yo

also are the crescents on some of the ingame cuirasses stop ribs?

[fleet junco]

brigandiner

[vocal vale]

yeah

[quaint shore]

Huh

I wonder if theres any sources for them

[vocal vale]

they’re all based off surviving pieces

[quaint shore]

i see

[cold atlas]

i have no idea about history but all of those pics look sick

[quaint shore]

Maybe you should…

[magic sand]

Nah check this shit doesn’t he look way cooler?

[cold atlas]

reminds me of for honor

[vivid solar]

https://tenor.com/view/megatron-disgusting-transformers-michael-bay-bayverse-gif-9433102870434795902

[magic sand]

Look how big his muscles are

That’s how you know he’s a real knight

Laugh at me all you want but this guy is “historical” as it gets and he can’t even make it up the stairs

[terse bronze]

there's several issues in the pic

the "gambeson" being one of them

it doesn't help the silouhette

just shouldnt be there in the first place

[magic sand]

That’s why the strongest knight of the group got to wear the greathelm - they were the most powerful of them all

[silver grotto]

Why has there been so much ragebait and scam links within the past week or so?

[terse bronze]

lmao

(oops mb)

[humble pagoda]

Did the militia of visby have outdated armor compared to the Danish? (I know this isn't 1450s but just a question)

[verbal bramble]

0/10 bait, I don't like ragebait but if you gonna do it, the least you can do is make good ragebait.

[weak halo]

Leave Sir Cumference alone

[wary bear]

Trust me theres a lot you don’t see cause of automod. Those particular ones are impossible to automod unfortunately as you cant automod images like that. But we get a few every week of those ones plus dozens you never have to bother with

[sour raven]

5674

ui

6-=7

🙂

[vocal vale]

what

[night kindle]

my doctor accidentally said that today during my annual checkup, I was trying not to grin bc he was being super chill and professional

it normally isn’t funny but I guess I was in that silly mood

[white fulcrum]

diddyblud

[lone osprey]

behind setztartschen apparently

[strong wraith]

idk where else to put this but i thought yall would find the armour i wore for halloween at school interesting

ever so slightly oversized but i'll grow into it soon enough

[terse bronze]

Sir this is the reference channel

you couldve put that in #general-catfish-🐱🐟 or #halfsword-chat-⚔ ig

[minor saffron]

shut up nerd

[strong wraith]

yes

yall look at armour here

so i thought it'd be fitting aha..

[terse bronze]

it's larp costume

not armor

[strong wraith]

nnnno thats armour

[terse bronze]

not proper armor

[strong wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/joe-biden-presidential-debate-huh-confused-gif-9508832355999336631

how so

[terse bronze]

butter galvanised ill-fitted maille,
cheap metal, oversized, bad silhouette sallet
same thing for the arms and gauntlets

this channel is for historical references

refer to this

[strong wraith]

im tired boss

[terse bronze]

skull emoji

[agile trench]

I can assure you everything in that costume is something not to be referenced

That’s all bastardized unresearched reproductions of various pieces

In fact I believe that arm harness is based on 14th century English plate which doesn’t fit the time frame of this game

[terse bronze]

(which is fine for costume armor for halloween or collecting whatever you do you with your money)

[agile trench]

Exactly

But it doesn’t fit this channel when this channel is for educational purposes

[verbal bramble]

The armors in this channel are meant to fit, down to the year and region, to 1450-1470, 10 year wiggle room. For your specific harness, which is costume, you can go to #general-catfish-🐱🐟 or #art-🎨 , I am pretty sure they will like it.

[next orchid]

German word for Burgundians

[terse bronze]

Burgundische?

Welche too no?

Forgot what welche was referring to

Isn't it french speaking areas

[next orchid]

Romance speaking language areas

Or Celtic

[terse bronze]

:3

[next orchid]

Also har har

👎

[terse bronze]

What

[next orchid]

This wasn't a question but a statement 😭

[terse bronze]

You're scary

Scaring me

[next orchid]

U sound like the ol ball and chain

[chrome rover]

Question, are there any surviving pieces of armour from the 1450s-1470s which are FULLY gilded? Not asking for artistic manuscripts cause those sometimes like to dive into fantasy with such stuff. (Some manuscripts simply give an important figure golden armour to make them stand out.)

[lethal adder]

does anyone have a good reference image that shows how aventails would be fitted to an armet?

trying to doodle.....

[strong wraith]

not an expert by any means, matterfact im relatively new to delving this deep into armour but i imagine it'd be attached to the brass rivets at the bottom? but not many armets have these, as far as i can tell it's pretty rare

[next orchid]

no

[strong wraith]

there is this, that i found!

[next orchid]

some stuff just after though

helmets

[lethal adder]

thats kinda what im looking for but i was moreso referring to diagrams or a more detailed depiction. trying to figure out how they were fastened to prevent big gaps in the front like that one, ik they had supplemental plate bevors and gorgets but i wanna know if there were alternatives with better neck protection for armets without the bevor and whatnot

[strong wraith]

good question, not too sure either

of course theres that other plate that could be attached to the lower armet? forget what it's called

[strong wraith]

heres some solutions i found

[verbal bramble]

I have studied armor, and indeed, it would be there. How exactly? I am not sure, but I imagine it would be somewhat similar to the aventail of a bascinet? (Which I am more familiar than armets)

[strong wraith]

i imagine so, yeah. it might not cover the lower face like a bascinet's aventail but its quite similar

[terse bronze]

i will never not enjoy posting early armets

[strong wraith]

cool to see how they evolved

[terse bronze]

kind of a shame those armets with hounskull visors don't fit the game's tiemframe cuz they're my fav

[strong wraith]

there's always mods, unless you're not the type to mix time periods

[terse bronze]

true

but yeah

if there isn't anything else to wear it with there's no point

[verbal bramble]

I meant how it was attached, not the design

[strong wraith]

oh yeah my bad

i mean it might also be attached similarly?

[strong wraith]

fair enough

[lethal adder]

https://tenor.com/view/omni-man-invincible-its-peak-omni-man-peak-gif-13128163821234406100

[lethal adder]

thank you i appreciate it

[strong wraith]

all good! love armets

[lethal adder]

"scream if you love armets!"

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-friends-mr-boss-yelling-spaghetti-gif-24505286

[strong wraith]

i'd send a screaming gif but im 99% sure i dont have embed perms

[chrome rover]

fair enough

[terse bronze]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/962805892141707294/1404306501341941830/meme.gif

the only one I have on hand because I made it when i was discussing about the Eurocopter Tiger

[strong wraith]

https://youtube.com/shorts/WACl6z71oZU?si=9cfid2otR5J8y8Zs

[lone osprey]

I dont know the french word ... can you tell me perchance

[next orchid]

targe, pavois

manteau (for the larger forms)

most pavises were held by a pavisier though in europe

[vivid solar]

In 10 years we'll get the 14th century DLC, trust

[terse bronze]

these helmets are 15th century tho

just earlier that 1450

[sterile crane]

i think this sallet is in the game isnt it?

[silver grotto]

Yes

[vivid solar]

When?

[silver grotto]

~1410 iirc

[sterile crane]

why was the sallet made like that

did the owner have a huge nose

[terse bronze]

yeah around 1410s

[vivid solar]

1400-1420 DLC

[bright token]

Got this from Francois L'Archeveque's post. He's my favourite sallet helmetsmith.

[terse bronze]

Bossmode

[void stream]

swag

[lethal adder]

oooo

i like the peak on the visor

[dapper ibex]

I WOULD VERY MUCH APPRECIATE A 15TH CENTURY FRENCH CAVALRY SABRE]

somthin like this. very different from what i use in u]olympic style sabre but still baddass

[terse bronze]

that is not 15thc

and on the image above the sabre isn't french

it says "venetian estradiot" from what I can read

wouldnt be surprised if it was from the 1490s (so outside the game's timeframe)

[haughty creek]

That says 16th century, does it not?

[fast pagoda]

Yes

[dapper ibex]

sabre fencing was around since atleast the 14th

[terse bronze]

so what

[chrome rover]

found the orignal image where you can make out the quality. 6. Sabre says 16th century

also the sabres are arranged time wise, the fourth example on the image is dated 1495.

i would assume Sabre 6. is late 16th century

[vivid solar]

What do the king labels mean

[chrome rover]

1. Temp. Henry VI
2. Temp. Edward IV
3. Commencement of reign of Henry VIII
4. Engraved by Albert Dürer, 1495
5. Temp. Henry VIII
6. Sabre of Venetian Estradiot. 16th century

no idea what Temp means

also i misread it, the 4th one is dated 1495, not the second

[vivid solar]

The earlier ones could fit the game time frame

[chrome rover]

the early ones pretty much just look like slightly crooked swords.

[vivid solar]

Yeah lmao

[chrome rover]

look like they were just fucked up in the blade forging process

[strong wraith]

maybe the first sabers were indeed fucked up and it gave someone an idea

partially joking

[chrome rover]

theres another cool curved sword called the Falx. it curves into the other direction and way less gradually.
used by the Dacians against Rome around Year 100, was used to poke the Romans in the face by going over their shields with the curve.

[dapper ibex]

i couldnt realyy find one inbetween so i got one on either side to show it existed in 15

[terse bronze]

but not as shown

[chrome rover]

sure, sabres existed in the 15th century, but the ones you think of are 16th century, mostly 17th century

[dapper ibex]

and this one is?

[chrome rover]

thats a 19th century sabre xd

thats an officer's sabre

[dapper ibex]

its hard to get good pictures of old things

[chrome rover]

shame they didnt have cameras back in 1460

[dapper ibex]

ya dont say

[chrome rover]

not sure though, im assuming the pictures from their cameras were just too grainy to add to the history books, considering cameras only became good around 1600.

[lone osprey]

according to the jagiellonian university museum's 2018 exhibition on the history of sabre fencing, this farthest row is the best you can expect for swords that qualify as sabres in the 15th century (may not even be in the games timeframe or geography). you're better off asking for more messers than sabres

[sterile crane]

Yeah i think more messers and falchions would satiate the people's need for sabres

The ones currently in game i've seen people see them more as machetes than sabres

[lone osprey]

and that is fair because I dont think the game is really tuned for (or so far was even intended for) that style of combat at all and it would probably need a stance like the one depicted in Talhoffer / a grip style like the animations in hellish quart to function

[void stream]

Oh that's so freaking gorgeous

[next orchid]

give me hungarian scimitar

[reef coyote]

yo

cannon

do you know hot to get in on the beta testing

https://tenor.com/view/please-sad-spongebob-puppy-face-gif-13025486282430817570

[solar cargo]

Traittié de la forme et devis comme on fait les tournois », par « RENE D'ANJOU ». Ca 1460

[strong wraith]

@terse bronze starting to agree with you on these types of armets (found these deep in the media tab of this channel)

these seem a bit closer to the typical armet than the ones you've shared, but still have that hounskull-esque visor

[chilly mango]

@usernameinvited

[blazing raft]

Oh god, the head butt now turns from pure blunt to full on piercing

[strong wraith]

consider yourself lucky to live in the era where that isnt exactly a common death

[median glade]

While wearing the pointed metal hat armor (Not sure the name) you can at least APPEAR to stab someone with a headbutt

[vivid solar]

Kettle hat?

[vocal vale]

headbutting with the middle of your face

[lone topaz]

if i had a big metal beak in the middle of my face i would as well

[vivid solar]

Wood pecker core

https://tenor.com/view/head-bang-head-banging-banging-head-on-wall-im-over-this-im-done-gif-6513217525092377963

[lucid storm]

1435

1450

[sullen charm]

Is this a great bassinet

*bascinet

[verbal bramble]

I think so, yes

[lucid storm]

yes

[lone osprey]

this is only vaguely related to your question, but just idly trying to find prices of armour in the 15th century, came across this habsburg inventory of burgundian treasure that seems to list a harness (appears to be in the singular) along with presumably gilt tableware (if im interpreting right) worth a total of 12,000 gulden. I figure if it was worth singling out and even if it only makes up a fraction of the price, that must have been one hell of a harness. charles the bold's bejeweled hat taken by the swiss at grandson was worth around 484 artesian pounds. all I know about currency conversion is that the gulden may have been a replacement for the pfund (pound) in the HRE if that says anything.

[chrome rover]

Thanks, thats a lot of pretty good info.

[bright token]

manifesting this armet shows up in the game. This one is a modern reproduction made by Harywald.

[lethal adder]

chinlet armet

[lethal adder]

i like dis one a lot

[latent drift]

mouth breather armet

[strong wraith]

me too honestly

[strong wraith]

i think the only armet i prefer over it is this tudor one i've found which i've really no grounds to believe it's historically accurate so idk if it counts

[lethal adder]

very big fan of sharp angled visors on armets

rounded visors just dont scratch da itch..

[strong wraith]

exactly

[strong wraith]

this

NO clue if it actually existed but i dig it

[lethal adder]

i like the y shape form barbute we have in the game but i think a t shape variant would be cool as well

open face shape as well but i think we already have something like this in game

[vocal vale]

this helmet is considered dubious by robert macpherson

[vocal vale]

i think this is too early for the game

[vocal vale]

many such cases

[latent drift]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[vivid solar]

I will not stand for the mouth breathing disrespect

[latent drift]

atleast the armorer adapted

he respects such facial features

[vivid solar]

Respectable man

[lethal adder]

early close armet from Graham Turner's book "War of The Roses" and some reproductions of the same helm i found. its a bit outside of the time period for the game but still felt inclined to share bc its quite cool i fink!

also i think the fellow on the right in this image is depicted with the same helm

[lucid storm]

it's a shame they stopped using pointy hounskulls by ~1420

[lethal adder]

tysm for the book recommendation btw its so good, havent sat down and actually read the damn thing ive just been ogling all of the cool pictures since it arrived yesterday lmao

[vivid solar]

Ikrrr

Glad you like it

I still gotta read it as well

Made it through the first 6 chapters or so months back but then life happened and yk

Gonna have to restart

[wanton tide]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSQn1ufScSQ

dunno if this counts but it helped me

[sterile crane]

Was that made with pencil

[tawny zephyr]

Does anyone have references for the splint-and-rondel arm armour in earlier ranks? They're jackchains, I suppose, but I want to see some examples in art so I can better date them

(this one, I mean)

[sullen charm]

These sorts of oval shields are so damn cool

[void stream]

i love tabulaccio shields

[sullen charm]

What's your pfp from? Love the Burgundy bits

[lethal adder]

https://tenor.com/view/true-true-crash-test-dummy-the-incredible-crash-dummies-spin-incredible-crash-dummies-spin-the-incredible-crash-dummies-gif-11792108322021037218

[robust tendon]

doesnt look very accurate but nice to see single leg harness represented

[void stream]

FR 586 folio 100

[sullen charm]

Top right person tho

[night kindle]

wait mb

i didn’t read lower

disregard

lemme find the dates and info on the art i sent

[terse bronze]

that third image tho

[night kindle]

not accurate i found it on pinterest 😝

i needed a filler

[stark compass]

Jupons in mid-late 15th century?

I thought that was a 1350's-1430's thing

However this manuscript is dated to 1450

[unkempt rampart]

Jupons over plate my beloved

[terse bronze]

if you got this from manuscriptminiature.com some are misdated

plenty that are dated from 1450 are actually earlier

[stark compass]

Yeah I did

[stark compass]

Ahh, I guess that also explains the bascinet

[lethal adder]

sucks that jupons dont fit in the time frame....

https://tenor.com/view/kid-mad-frustrated-huang4evr-gif-23515031

[simple barn]

were bascinets not used in the late 15th century?

[latent drift]

no

[simple barn]

well i mean they obviously were by atleast the lower budgeted soldiers who couldn't afford the latest gear/hand me downs

but like

[terse bronze]

not in the late century brah

there's instances of bascinets that got MODIFIED to be a bit more sallet like to fit the fashion of the time

but in 99% of the case, a sallet, kettle, skllcap will just be far easier to aquire as a soldier

[simple barn]

I was mostly thinking that since in some countries it was mandatory to own a certain amount of armour incase of a war or something, that a hand-me-down bascinet wouldn't be too out of the realm of possibility

or even just a merchant selling them for cheaper to move on to the more popular items of the time

[terse bronze]

it so rare that I would rather not have any bascinets in the game because it could be used as an excuse by people to open the door wide and request more outdated gear

[simple barn]

im not suggesting they be added im just talking about armour in the late medieval periods

i wouldn't want them to be added

[terse bronze]

i doubt a merchant would keep a bascinet DECADES in his inventory in hopes of selling it

probably just refurbish it, sell it for scrap ect

[simple barn]

well yeah, they wouldn't keep it for decades because it got less popular, so they'd sell it for less to try and make up for the fact it wasn't as popular so that they could make way for the more wanted items, leading to less wealthy soldiers acquiring them

and these less wealthy people wouldn't waste money buying something thats more in fashion when they can just upkeep this old gear that they dont plan on using unless they NEED to

if it does the job, it does, its like if I have a m1911 for self defence but another model is more effective, im not planning on going to war so I dont need the peak of technology, just enough to work if I need it

[simple barn]

sallet with an underbite

[lone osprey]

there is an ordinance dated to the middle of the 15th century for the city of Frankfurt explicitly notifying citizens of what armour is considered up to date and what armour is considered out of date and thus presumably obsolete. so even at that measly level - you wouldn't get away wearing out-of-date equipment. and when you did exchange it, as at least one good scholar has pointed out, the material it was made out of was probably worth more than the object itself, which made recycling it more appealing than just keeping it around to re-sell.

[verbal bramble]

That is very interesting, could you perhaps share it?

[lone osprey]

yeah certainly. it's from Sprechendes Metall by Christopher Retsch (and he seems to have grabbed it from Regula Schmid who I think has originally found them- great scholar who is the one who claims that recycling the material from armour was worth more than the damaged or old armour itself) in the context of a set of ordinances for the city of Frankfurt over time. key phrase at the end of the highlight "und derglichen alt gewerde." however this is qualified by "verspulget sein" which may or may not mean that people were accustomed to these older types of armour, just to give the benefit of the doubt to the claim that old armour was 'in use' - either way, the message is clear that they are regarded as inferior. Retsch then breaks it down on page 121 - pointing out that plate armour is referred to as offering improved protection over the older forms, such as leather armour, and presumably jacks (I can't imagine "schecken" in this context refers to a jacket as clothing - it's in the context of armour so I assume it is referring to it as such), and, by Retsch's interpretation even a type of helmet ("lusterhube") is regarded as old/obsolete.

also the specific wording "wehrhafftiger bruchlichkeit" (I believe something like 'proven' brittleness) is odd and ambiguous - if interpreted literally as brittleness, then it seems to be against poorly made plate armour, but if interpreted in the sense of proofed hardness, then it's probably a positive comment towards plate armour. either way, the document goes on to say that a citizen should understand that "sal durch das wort gantzen harnesch verstanden werden ein isenhut, ein koller, ein gantzer rucke und krebs, armegewandt, isern wapen, hentschuwe und oberroren." or approximately "the words 'full harness' should be understood as an iron helmet, a [mail] collar, a full back and breastplate, arm protection, iron armour [unclear, but wapen also = armour in ENHG, but weirdly vague], gauntlets, and upper [leg?] protection"

it seems weird that they would call a 'full harness' something lacking leg protection but the term for upper arm armour would be oberarmroren and they already specify armegewandt for 'arm armour' so oberroren at the end there might be for leg armour - or else why would it be a ganzen harnesch, but that's my interpretation and it's a bit spotty

also the concept of proving may very well be an anachronism I'm imposing on it and there could be a better interpretation of that weird phrase about brittleness, but yeah the end of the document specifying what a citizen should understand as armour leaves absolutely no doubt that it should be plate armour and what kind of helmet it should include, and that other types of armour are old.

[vocal vale]

guns are a different can of worms

when you’re a soldier in this time period, the high class gear of yesterday doesnt become the low class gear of tomorrow, it gets broken down to make “modern” designs

lower class soldiers have less armor, not antique armor

[next orchid]

a similar ordinance was made in late 14th century portugal

"The king ordered arms to be changed in this fashion: the gambeson should be exchanged for a jack, the hauberk for a haubergeon, and the war hat for a barbuta with aventail. Those who were fully armed should wear a barbuta with aventail and arming cap, haubergeon, jack, cuisses, French greaves, gauntlets, an estoc, dagger and glaive."

[next orchid]

if its been so peaceful that they can do it, theres a good chance that theyre just gonna sell it lol

the armor at visby was like 30 years outdated, and this is an extreme example (the gotlanders were not soldiers, newer armor might have been looted), so it would have been possible to see a bascinet on the heads of the arriere ban or something, but maintaining armor is hard and oftentimes they rust so much in the inventories that they are rendered useless (which u can see in many inventories). which is another thing to remember, these things degrade naturally.

[strong wraith]

thallet

[verbal bramble]

What about decorated armor from anyone with enough money to afford it? Would that also get broken down? Or would they keep it due to the decoration?

[lone osprey]

nice - interesting and so specific.

[lone osprey]

I think you have to take these things on a case-by-case basis. for example, Maximilian and Mary of Burgundy pawned off a large amount of Burgundian treasure (possibly even including that harness on that inventory up above because Maximilian was in enormous debt from fighting the Flemish revolt and conflicts in Holland/Frisia rebelliond in Geldres). but some of his expensive Helmschmid harnesses made it down over time. on a sort of related note, Philip II of Spain, his great grandson, melted down Maximilian's crown to pay his own debts.

[verbal bramble]

PHILLIP-II YOU SCOUNDREL- Joking

[lone osprey]

yeah it sounds crazy until you realize max was doing the same thing to charles the bold's stupid treasure lol

[verbal bramble]

Wait WHAT?!

[lone osprey]

i.e. pawning it off

[verbal bramble]

Did he get- Ah. I do feel that, pawning off treasure (which may or may not be the crown) is a bit different than straight-up melting down the actual goddamn crown

[lone osprey]

no idea how much this one has been restored or how much of it is authentic (im having a stroke), guess it's another example of armour deemed worth preserving like those Helmschmid harnesses. thought it would be worth pointing out in case you hadn't seen it before (or these photos of it) cause I thought I remember you saying you like this style?

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah- I adore this style of harness, anything gothic in general is my jam (crisp flutes, points, not too much saturation, tracery and filework like gothic motifs and hearts/spades, the rare latten details...). The cuirass could use some more fluting, but ah well.

My dream harnesses are, in fact, a decorated harness for a halberdier who got nice money and used it for drip (full harness except legs, and gothic decoration without being as dramatic as the Lorenz Helmschmied harnesses), and a REALLY decorated full gothic harness with lots of ocean motifs

[sullen charm]

I was curious regarding these styles of very geometric breastplates, are they a particularly early style, or cheaper or are they just different like what’s the context for these much less rounded pieces of armour?

[thorny otter]

Such an interesting choice to display it seated.

[thorny otter]

It's an earlier style - the keyword you are looking for is "kastenbrust"

[lone osprey]

yeah you're right seated is very unusual. I wonder if they didn't have the right mannequin

[lone osprey]

TheGhostHero posted this on the DadG server
https://zettelfencer.wordpress.com/2024/12/07/an-attempt-at-establishing-a-kastenbrust-typology/

looks like that one is at the very bottom under Contentious types lol. the triangular type

[verbal bramble]

That black finish is BEAUTIFUL, I need to go look who made this armor, and see what they used to blacken it (oil blackening techniques that were available back then, modern cold bluing, modern rust bluing, modern hot bluing...)

[thorny otter]

Made by Rene Kohlstruck

[vocal vale]

it’s also worth noting that their armor was buried with them instead of “looted by lower class soldiers”

[verbal bramble]

What does that imply? Were the corpses too decomposed or in such a bad state that they considered it not worth removing? Cultural customs? That the armor was worth so little that they left them to decompose with it?

[vocal vale]

as cannon fodder said, the armor was outdated and it wasn’t worth the hassle to loot so it all went into a mass grave

which i figure is not exactly an uncommon fate for older armor rather than being looted

[verbal bramble]

I see, I see. That makes sense

[sullen charm]

These are fascinating drawings

I just watched a Metatron video talking about how Burgundian serjeants and captains wore those as symbol of rank

[stark compass]

I remember a miniature from I think 1500 that showed soldiers using bascinets, though obviously they are more like militia

[quaint shore]

didnt ireland use bascinets by this period

i swore they did

[stark compass]

yeah Irish armor was very weird during the late middle ages

Here is an example

this is late 15th-early 16th century btw

[quaint shore]

yeah

[vocal vale]

there are 16th century paintings that use bascinets as an artistic device to convey antiquity

[latent drift]

why they be doin that to him

[vocal vale]

he was proselytizing christianity on the wrong block (armenia)

[robust tendon]

done earlier too

1460

iirc these are archaisms

[vocal vale]

what’s odd about these though is this kind of visor shows up in a ~1450 talhoffer manuscript too

which he doesn’t have a reason to exaggerate about lol

i feel like the visors may be trying to depict something closer to the “flemish” style of close helm visor, the typical pointy face and breaths look, and the main liberty is the pointy skulls

[night kindle]

talhoffer mentioned

[white fulcrum]

conical bascinets herngggggg

[lethal adder]

John Blasphemous from the hit game, Blasphemous

[night kindle]

REAL

[sullen charm]

Armour with clothes on top is so peak

[sullen charm]

Also what would the technical name for a pole arm like this be?

[vague burrow]

Lmao no fuckin clue

Looks like uh

Poleaxe or sum

[robust tendon]

pollax/pollaxe

[gloomy kettle]

where can i find this figure

[weak halo]

It's probably a Little French Armory figurine

[terse bronze]

Pollaxe

[simple barn]

was the gothic style of armour really as popular back then as we make it out to be now

it seems every other set of full plate that i see is gothic with a sallet and massive gauntlets

[verbal bramble]

Not really, a lot of armor was italianate (made in the italian style), and of course the different regional styles had their peculiarities (The Iberian peninsula LOVED their brigandines, and so did the french). The reason you see so many gothic armor reproductions is because the modern market really likes such style (Which, as someone who ADORES gothic armor, I cannot blame them at all).

Most of the time, the gauntlers with huge cuffs you see in armor reproductions, are because at the time, that was the way gauntlets were made, both italianate and german (not huge hands tho, that's probably either a bad reproduction or someone with huge hands)

Also, it definetly helps that many gothic armors we see now were, at the time, thought to be precious enough to be worth preserving, instead of recycling the metal for some other purpose and/or burying it with the soldier that was wearing it. A lot of harnesses from other regions did not have such luck, either because they were not seen as "precious enough" or because whoever had it sold it to pay a debt (the last one is a fate only high end harnesses face, for obvious reasons).

Textile, due to its organic nature, also decomposes and is more difficult to preserve than metal, so brigandines would be much harder to maintain whole, but the separate pieces aren't any more difficult to preserve than any bit of armor.

You can still find some truly delightful harnesses if you know where to look, though

[verbal bramble]

To give you a visual reference, this is how a gothic or german-style gauntlet looks like, this one is of 1480-1490, but gauntlets like this were in use earlier, if perhaps with different decoration (for example, a cuff like this appears in paintings for the Burgundian Wars, which happened in the 1470s): https://www.allenantiques.com/A-98.html

In contrast, this is a typical italianate gauntlet, the cuff length and shape varies somewhat but it looks like this:

[unkempt rampart]

Really cool artwork of Charles the Bold

[verbal bramble]

Oh- He DEFINETLY had the drip, at least he does in this picture here

[robust tendon]

didn’t he have a gilded harness

like entirely gilded

[quaint shore]

really need to see more of that surcoat

[terse bronze]

At least one fully gilded from what I read

But several harnesses alltogether

[quaint shore]

ducal got that shit on

Is that just the flag but on a surcoat actually

wait yeah itbis

thats sick

[terse bronze]

Absurdly rich but also absurdly in debt and fucked

[quaint shore]

Rest in peace

Too dripped for the world

[terse bronze]

In piss

[quaint shore]

Tru

[terse bronze]

B*rgundian

[quaint shore]

I will not tolerate burgundian slander

its a nice color

[terse bronze]

What you angloids call burgundy is actually bordeaux

It's all about the wine

And Bordeaux wine > Burgundy wine

[quaint shore]

We about to have another agincourt

[terse bronze]

Azincourt

Azincourt was such a massive L for the English in the long run

Few realize this

[quaint shore]

i only like cool armor this is getting out of my territory

I will Now proceed to Post ai Slop and Visored barbutes and ask “where bascinet”

[terse bronze]

Just saying cuz even after decimating the french nobility they still ended up getting obliterated big time in following battles

[quaint shore]

True

Okay actually Trvke

[terse bronze]

Omg kcd reference!! Henry has come to see us or something

[quaint shore]

I am Very peckish

[verbal bramble]

Alot of people with nice armors seem to get in debt, why and how is that the case?

[lone osprey]

typical elite ponzi scheme tbh

[verbal bramble]

Please elaborate

[lone osprey]

you convince people to give you money (or more legitimately, sell off something), which puts you into more debt, to pay the people you're already in debt with

maximilian was doing this all the time but also selling things off

[verbal bramble]

Huh... So it was a constant loop of asking for money to pay off an old debt, then getting a new debt, and asking for more money to pay off this new debt?

[lone osprey]

I think with people like charles it's squandered wealth. born into extreme wealth, over extend, go into extreme debt

[lone osprey]

yeah or in some cases accruing debts so large they just followed people over their reign/life

[verbal bramble]

I assume this is what happened to Maximilian I too?

[lone osprey]

maximilian wasn't born into wealth nor married into much of it when he got to the netherlands. but things did come together for him when he was able to unify austria, which he then proceeded to also mortgage off parts of like his uncle lol

he was in a constant debt cycle

[verbal bramble]

Goddamn- No wonder people lived to the 60s, the stress from those constant debts must've been grueling! (I jest, for the most part)

[lone osprey]

because he chose the tyrant path like charles

[lone osprey]

I think Wiesflecker said he had some issue with his gallbladder or stomach and also probably syphilis when he died

[verbal bramble]

Oh wait- fr?

[lone osprey]

yeah very speculatively lol

but it's what his best modern biographer reckons but yeah I havent scrutinized those suggestions at all lol

[verbal bramble]

Huh... So centralized power, where he basically had an absolute monarchy?

[verbal bramble]

Ah well, if true that's kind of impressive, debt-related stress jokes aside

[lone osprey]

attempted centralization. ended up creating one of the biggest conflicts in the history of belgium and the netherlands, a debt he carried until he accrued even bigger debts against venice, and ultimately his son making peace and hardly carrying on his politics once he took over

he did successfully centralize austria

[verbal bramble]

...How did he screw up this badly?!

[verbal bramble]

Huh, at least that's something

[lone osprey]

I think General Jim Mattis cited some Roman who said something like you cant conquer people who dont like you lol

the region would have prospered more with peacetime decentralization but he pursued charles dream and welp people dont like that

[verbal bramble]

Ah, I see... So I assume, he wasn't liked in Burgundy?

Actually no- that's a dumb question

Sorry, my understanding of 15th Century war and politics is, very small, I focus a lot more on the armor, weapons, and other craftsmanship

[lone osprey]

haha the Duchy of Burgundy just got retaken immediately by Louis XI. but the Flemish hated him. the neighbouring Brabanters however saw an opportunity and, for example, he was on good terms with the Flemish competition in Antwerp. similar things in Holland with the Hook and Cod factions. I think he sided with the Cods. always two groups fighting somewhere looking to take advantage of someone like him

[verbal bramble]

Huh...

[lone osprey]

similar to the Guelfs and Ghibellines in Italy - factions ya know

[verbal bramble]

Ah, right, right

[unkempt rampart]

Reliquary of Charles the Bold

[verbal bramble]

What's up with this gauntlet? Why does it seem to have a gap on the cuff?

[sullen charm]

How would mid-late 15th century gunners carry their accoutrements? I don't really see the obvious bandolier and pouches associated with early modern gunners like in here and some other references

oh wait

I think I notice that huge pouch by his right leg

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... If you mean the guns, crossbows and the like, you would carry it. In the case of projectiles, yeah you carry it on a pouch or quiver or the like.

[unkempt rampart]

If it’s within that time why do the guys on the right look like they’re wearing Bascinets

[weak halo]

God that's sexy

[night kindle]

could’ve been a 15th century chroniclers recreation of that moment through a drawing. i saw a sallet’s so that’s what i think

possibly

[sullen charm]

the grete bathrobe

[sullen charm]

beautiful burgundy

[vocal vale]

da vinci writes that mounted gunners had sacks to hold cartridges (paper roll containing proper amount of powder and ball)

[chrome rover]

That is a perfect Sallet & Bevor, if i would make a set of armour, id try to replicate those exact pieces. Absolutely stunning, who made that armour?

[vocal vale]

Francois L’Archeveque

[chrome rover]

thank you!

[next orchid]

english military victories are of the "nothing ever happens" sort

invade france
loot
kills off the flower of the french nobility
leaves
repeat 5 years later

[lone osprey]

My favorite part about this section is that there even appears to be a corresponding part of the text under "In what cases imperial law prescribes single combat" (merged into one section on lombard and imperial law in the illustrated version). About a hypothetical case between a Frenchman and an Englishman, just like is illustrated. Pictured is a translation by Sumner Willard of a different copy, but the same section is in the manuscript on 109r. Don't know if it's a good treatise in the grand scheme of things but I'm a sucker for images

[bright token]

I like the english knight’s helmet, looks like early armet or great bascinet to me

[lone osprey]

yeah it vaguely resembles that Thun one but with a little grated window on the side kind of like italian jousting helmets. maybe just a fantasy mishmash. kind of odd wish the artist had depicted it more clearly lol

[lethal adder]

"you forgot to add the gigachad image"

[vocal vale]

basically just this but bars instead of a visor

[bright token]

nice!

Does it has a name or do we just call it tournament helm

[next orchid]

bascinet

helm

[vocal vale]

it’s closest in mechanism to a grand bascinet but it’s a very idiosyncratic example that is probably best left described rather than named

[bright token]

bicoque even (jk)

[lone osprey]

kempfhawben

[vocal vale]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-avengers-punch-beat-attack-gif-11841039

[terse bronze]

(Morgan Freeman voice) I can smell you

[mighty needle]

https://www.nga.gov/artworks/11585-two-peasants-fighting

https://api.nga.gov/iiif/09e43168-75c6-4ab0-a53e-c2ad7ede7053/full/!800,800/0/default.jpg

[lone osprey]

was just looking at the housebook master on rijksmuseum website 👍

[fiery gorge]

ear hole pretty smart

[sullen charm]

what's the term for the pavise types used in half sword?

[eager nymph]

I'd imagine the larger ones are just pavises simply, the smaller ones can also be called that as well but if you wanted to differentiate a little you could call them hand pavises, I've seen that term sometimes

Could be wrong but that's just what I know

[vocal vale]

holy carp...... it mite actually be

[terse bronze]

The one in the back, on the left also remind me a lot of the other "Venetian" gb

[sterile crane]

Why are they wearing full maille pants

[vocal vale]

so that they can protect their legs

[sterile crane]

I've never seen those before, do they have a name

Cus i know there are chausses but those on the image also cover the crotch

[robust tendon]

im pretty sure they’d still be called chausses

[next orchid]

nah lol

[vocal vale]

sexy

[void stream]

agree

[wanton tide]

anybody know some guard techniques for longswords

[vocal vale]

half sword or real life

[wanton tide]

real life

[vocal vale]

do you know where your profile picture is from

[wanton tide]

yeah

i think

wait

yeah i do

[vocal vale]

take a squizz at that

[wanton tide]

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fiore_de'i_Liberi/Poleaxe

[vocal vale]

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fiore_de'i_Liberi#Sword_in_Two_Hands

[unkempt rampart]

Bascinet with orle on the right?

[silver grotto]

I think it's just a particularly open barbute

Or just a normal sallet

[unkempt rampart]

Did people wear orles on their barbutes?

Yeah that makes sense

What’s that image from?

[dim mauve]

Two samples of butted maille I've been tinkering with next to a piece of standard reenactment riveted maille.

For all I know butted maille has little to no validity historically but I'm choosing this type of maille for my suit of armour for a number of reasons.

As far as I'm aware you can actually get historical riveted versions of thick rings like this but they're not easy to source at all, in fact even the standard flat riveted rings and the associated riveting tools are annoying to get.
These samples are just made from very specific sizes of spring washer.

Despite being butted (which is generally physically inferior to riveted maille), these samples are far stronger being that they're significantly thicker and more densely packed than the normal reenactment maille. They're also made of stainless steel which is a far stronger kind of steel than what you get with available riveted rings.

Being that they're stainless steel also means that they are far more corrosion resistant, which means I can cheat out on having to oil them, which I find quite disgusting actually.

My plan is to continue with the more historical maille for early medieval reenactments. But for late medieval, when maille coverage is quite scarce and mostly hidden, I'll use these butted rings.

As for protection, the two samples on the left are far more resistant to bending or breaking than the riveted sample is.

In terms of how pointy something needs to be to slip through the gaps, I'd say the middle sample is no worse than the riveted, both would allow something like a standard Philips screwdriver through.

The left sample on the other hand... Well, that doesn't even let certain needles through. 😂
Anything thicker than a relatively small needle is too big to fit through any of the gaps.

[verbal bramble]

You can get the tools for riveting in Ironskin for the most part, as well as rings from there (though you can make your own rings with a jig, somewhere to heat the rings up, an anvil, and a round piece of metal.)

[dim mauve]

True but I'm specifically playing around with thick rings, like the rings shown here on this standard. Also when buying rings you gotta consider the prices, historical riveted rings are not cheap in large numbers, 60 euro on ironskin for 1750 rings which isn't many rings.

[verbal bramble]

Hmmm... In that case, you could try make your own after buying the tools and making the jig for making coils?

[dim mauve]

Well I'll be honest with you, making anything out of butted maile is already a massive time sink, riveted maile is tenfold, and making the rings yourself is, as far as I'm concerned, absurd.

Mainly because maille for me is if anything, an after thought when compared to the plate armour I'm making, I just don't have that kind of time.

The main thing is that these samples of maille, while being less accurate, are much cheaper, easier to make, and superior in strength. Nobody will be looking close enough at my armpits below pauldrons to see that the relatively tiny rings don't have rivets on them. 😊

In fact I have considered just not bothering with maille at all, since normally it's really greasy, but since I can work on this butted maille while I have nothing to do at work I chose to do so.

[verbal bramble]

Wait you actually trying to make a harness?

Any style of harness in particular? I myself want to get into armouring!

[dim mauve]

Yes I'm making multiple, I've even been talking to a guy who's done work for royal armouries about tuition.

[dim mauve]

The first one I'm doing (which is the most simple), is a suit of armour for the year 1403, I'm currently making a bascinet for it.

[verbal bramble]

Ooo- Are you raising it from one piece? Or welding it together?

[verbal bramble]

This is impressive too!

[dim mauve]

Welding, making armour from one piece usually requires lots of heat, and a bascinet visor in particular is an absolute nightmare to do without a welder

In fact I'm not entirely sure the nose cone would even be possible to make out of one piece without like, a brazing torch or something.

[verbal bramble]

Hmm, I see... I did read in Brian's "Techniques of Armor Reproduction" that bascinets could've possibly been made, in at least a few cases, from a cone forge-welded and raised from there.

Perhaps the nose cone could be made a similar way? Historical metal seems to be easier to forge weld than the modern stuff, or at least wrought iron is.

[dim mauve]

With enough heat you absolutely can do it, but by cold working sheet metal it's likely impossible.

Here's some different photos of it BTW, still needs a shit tonne of work.

And to be fair, this is my first welding project.

Lots wrong with it right now, all part of the process though.

[verbal bramble]

OOO- IMPRESSIVE WORK! Keep up the good work

[verbal bramble]

And yeah, obviously, as no heat no weld

I am currently busy figuring out how to assemble a forge, both for armouring and general blacksmithing, which without doubt speed armouring dramatically with heat

(And also means I could save up some money from making tools instead of buying them)

[dim mauve]

Fair enough, I'm personally leaving the more heat and forge kind of things for later when I'm experienced with other things because of how complex that sort of thing can be

Especially heat treatment, like nah, that can come later.

It's like with the maille, I wanna know how to properly fit the patterns and stuff before I start riveting rings together.

[sullen charm]

Thanks!

[verbal bramble]

That makes sense

[verbal bramble]

As for heat treating, that isn't something you really do while making the armor, but as a finishing step to make it more resistant. If you are working with thicker material and/or for costume/display purposes, you don't really need to do this, but you do if you're working with thinner material

The owner of the now defunct website borealissteel.ca mentioned how they heat treated a gadling for a gauntlet, 0.8mm in thickness, put it on an anvil and slammed it with a hammer: The anvil got damaged, and the gadling was untouched!

For now, yeah focus on making pieces first with the techniques, reserve heat treating for later on when you feel comfortable doing it (and remember to pick heat treatable steel! Mild iron sheet can't be HTd unless you case harden the piece first)

[dim mauve]

Idk about that, mild steel can't be heat treated at all. High carbon steels on the other hand need to be annealed so that they're soft enough to work with, then you have to heat treat them afterwards to regain the strength of the alloy. The problem is heat treating is complex and can easily ruin the entire thing if done wrong.

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah- use transmission fluid to quench, and look for guides on how to do it (as well as doing test pieces first for seeing how heat treating goes), there's one in the armour archive

[dim mauve]

I've been looking into case hardening because It seems like a better idea than just using hardened steel.

[verbal bramble]

As for carbon steels, working it hot already takes care of the annealing-

[verbal bramble]

It isn't, really: Work the hardenable steel hot, or buy it already annealed, it shouldn't be too difficult.

[dim mauve]

Right but heating steel up takes the strength out of it, and even moreso it provides the piece with uneven hardening, which is another reason it has to be equalised and treated afterwards etc

[dim mauve]

I mean, it It kinda is, because it's a similar principle to how blades are done where the edge is hard but the inside is soft, which allows the structure to absorb alot more force than a purely hardened steel thing would.

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah- I forgot about the pre-HT normalizing. Do about 3 or 4 normalization cycles before HT and you should be good to go for heat treat. Carbon steels ARE less forgiving than mild steel/iron, so good idea to work first on mild-

[dim mauve]

Hard materials don't absorb impacts very well

Well yeah I'm doing mild, which is why I'm using a welder because unless you want to be all authentic about the process there's really no benefit to forging mild steel.

[verbal bramble]

The way armor is heat treated gives it the balance to resist impacts without bending, nor too hard to shatter, as after Heat Treat you temper the piece

[verbal bramble]

Right, right. Best of luck!

[dim mauve]

There's nuance to it, it's like springsteel, spring steel is very hard and you can bend it, but it doesn't mean spring steel can't shatter, it very much can, mild steel on the other hand basically can't shatter.

[verbal bramble]

My concern was the amount of carbon in the piece would be unpredictable, which makes HT harder to accomplish (more carbon = more hard after HT, which means more brittle)

[dim mauve]

Yeah but you don't case harden the entire thing, you case harden it like a gradient so it has a hard shell and then becomes mild on either the middle or the other side.

Like it smoothly transitions from hard to mild.

Same reason why katanas are two pieces of metal forge welded together, one of those pieces is very hard and the other is soft to absorb the impacts down the spine

[verbal bramble]

There is a sweet spot in tempering (about purple, I think), from what I have seen, that the piece of armor is both hard (does not bend or dent), and tough (does not shatter), and if you do find it you can do some crazy stuff... The problem is, of course, finding this sweet spot, assuming the piece doesn't warp.

[verbal bramble]

I see... Hmm...

[dim mauve]

Afaik it's better to take advantage of two different types of steels than it is to find the sweet spot between the two.

Same reason you get old composite bows that have a different type of wood on the front than on the back, because they have different properties

[verbal bramble]

I didn't mean between steels, I meant in the tempering temperature-

[verbal bramble]

Huh...

[dim mauve]

I know I mean like tempering the whole thing to the same temperature

[verbal bramble]

Oh- right, sorry

I can provide you with an archived version of "borealissteel.ca", if you wish: it has some really nice info about armoring, specially gauntlets

[faint pollen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pFruVcbl-8

[dim mauve]

Afaik you can't really get the best of both worlds by tempering the whole thing to the same temperature. If you have a really hard outside that blends into a mild steel inside then you possibly truly get the best of both, because the hard shell cannot dent and the soft back prevents it from shattering and absorbs blows better

[dim mauve]

I'm thinking of making a pair of gauntlets actually.

[verbal bramble]

If you are making gothic armor, specially, it comes in very handy

[dim mauve]

Well I just want to make a simple pair of mitten gauntlets, cus it looks easy and I could make them for the rest of my group members

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... I did read some truly impressive things from armor heat treated this way-

[verbal bramble]

Then, while not from the website, I have something for you

[dim mauve]

Also my mitten gauntlets are a bit stiff and perhaps small

[dim mauve]

Marine biology and armouring? Are you like, a clone of me or something?

[verbal bramble]

PFF- HAHAHA!

Coelacanth, my beloved

[dim mauve]

My main marine biology fix is mantis shrimps and pistol shrimps.

[verbal bramble]

I want to, eventually, when I get the tools to do it, make my own harness in the gothic style-

[verbal bramble]

Oh! Interesting crustaceans, with how they have weaponized (apparently) cavitation bubbles, the same thing that causes tuna problems and injuries

Except the so called "spearing mantis shrimp", which fascinate me for different reasons

The animals that fascinate me the most are coral reefs, the deep sea, and the coelacanth- anyways, back to armor

I am currently stuck with getting the bare essential tools. How do you use stakes? Do you put them in a vise or in a hole on a table?

[dim mauve]

Not a clue mate, when it comes to hammering I use a piece of steel girder as an anvil and alot of patience

[verbal bramble]

Huh, for everything from dishing to flaring and raising?

[dim mauve]

Everything

It's certainly not good for everything but it's all I have

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... I see... I currently have a railroad track I was trying to shape with an angle grinder before the speed dial of it died, a leather sandbag I made myself, and a hex bar anvil I have to case harden before using it (it is mild steel, but really the only thing the scrapyard sold that resembled what I was looking for)

[dim mauve]

Railroad track is likely far better than girder

[verbal bramble]

Yep, but the railroad track is also inferior to the hex bar: The hex bar has all its mass on a bar you can turn upside down, which apparently is better for hammering (from what I read, anyways, I don't remember where I read it)

[fiery gorge]

holy fucking yap

[dim mauve]

^^^ Why do so many people like this exist? ^^^

[fiery gorge]

https://tenor.com/view/half-sword-gif-3664374138885563044

[terse bronze]

Interesting

[void stream]

https://tenor.com/view/jebaited-low-quality-bait-wavy-man-gif-26402013

[fiery gorge]

https://tenor.com/view/evil-smile-evil-evil-laugh-gif-10865501938883882879

[steep yoke]

Ill be taking this thank you

[sullen charm]

What the dog doin'

[zenith forge]

You made this whole thing?

[sullen charm]

Were Franco-Burgundian sallets typically paired with bevors?

[snow nova]

i want maxmillian armor in the game

[dim mauve]

Wrong period

[snow nova]

15 century

[void stream]

No it's not 15 century

[snow nova]

1515–1525

[void stream]

Read it bro

[snow nova]

ohhhhh

game is 15 century no?

[void stream]

14 century (1300) and 15 century (1400)

[fast pagoda]

1500s is not 15th century

[void stream]

Got it?

And 16 century (1500)

[snow nova]

😅 im so dumb

[void stream]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/577944436793933825/1433668832127483994/lichtresized.gif

[void stream]

https://tenor.com/view/don’t-let-it-happen-again-not-again-monsters-inc-late-boss-gif-8364110190391435825

Just kidding

But next time pay more attention

[dim mauve]

That's 16th century love

Oh they already explained it

@snow nova if 1500 was 15th century that would make 100 the first century, what does that make the preceeding 100 years?

Actually tbf I wish they did what they did with the laws of thermodynamics and have the first one be the "zeroth", then the second one be the first 😂

Because if I'm honest, it does trip me up in conversation sometimes, at least sometimes when I'm talking about a century I'm not so familiar with.

[snow nova]

Big Battles. just about 30 vs 30 people, on a regular field, or for example a castle siege, as there are factions in the game, I would like to see it but HS is about fighting in a small arena, one of the Half Sword artworks depicted such a battle, and a knight with a Georgian flag on his shield

[terse bronze]

georgian flag ?

[snow nova]

yes

developers are georgian

[terse bronze]

pretty sure they aren't

and georgia isn't in western europe (where the game takes place)

[snow nova]

their kickstarter

[terse bronze]

if you see a St. George cross (the red cross that georgia uses nowadays) it has been used in western europe by a lot of "countries" from england to italy, some parts of france, iberian penninsula ect

[snow nova]

and their site

[snow nova]

thats not st george cross bro

[terse bronze]

For some reason i thought they were czech lol

[snow nova]

its kcd developers

warhorse:)

[terse bronze]

modern day georgia uses st george cross on its flag, like england & genoa

[terse bronze]

yeah ik about them i just thought they were too

[snow nova]

with this mini crosses

but yeah

its like st george cross:)

[terse bronze]

that's what i'm saying

st george cross (red cross) was used a lot in western europe during the game's timeframe without being related to the "country" of georgia

a bit like how greece and quebec (via france) uses Saint Michael cross

[snow nova]

And crossbows, i think thats cool idea

big map

and optomization

[lone osprey]

tbh i think this is about as likely as getting online multiplayer in the forseeable future. as in it we likely wont get it ever lol. the optimization of that many willies at once . . . just look at dragons dogma 2 optimization with the complexity of their NPCs. not a 1:1 comparison but probably reflects how spawning that many halfsword NPCs at once would go down

better off waiting for della arte della guerra for that stuff

it will probably come out one day

[rocky sand]

Only Frank is georgian

[snow nova]

his name is like not georgian, i didnt know about that

[snow nova]

I watched about this mod, and write this post

[zenith forge]

The physics alone would be immense

[snow nova]

Hand cannons, for big battles, it's funny to blow someone's head off with that baby!)

[abstract root]

Chainmail bevor with ocular kettle helm

[lethal adder]

"scream if you love asymmetrical armor"

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-friends-mr-boss-yelling-spaghetti-gif-24505286

[dim mauve]

Absolutely no chance the physics engine will manage 60 clankers at once.

[thick inlet]

i was thinking exactly that

My pc fries at the buhurt game

I believe most pcs do lol

and that's 1/10 of that

[dim mauve]

It might not even be a pc thing like the engine literally might not be capable of it straight up.

[icy seal]

Flail's (Bottom middle of the first image) and Macil's (very left of the second image) would be cool to have in the game though I COULD see flail's causing performance issues unless they're handled or swing in a certain way.

[sullen charm]

freaking love depictions of medieval handguns

especially when shields like that or pavises are involved

the boomstick shape looks so much cooler than the more modern lookin arquebus thing

OMG

[fast pagoda]

@vocal vale

[latent drift]

where did you get this from

[snow nova]

when devs make optimization

when unreal engine 5 will be good

[snow nova]

yeees

20-30 fps

[rocky sand]

epic games twitter post

[lone osprey]

damn I'm glad it's real

[terse bronze]

French army 15th. Miniatures from the Overseas Compaigns by S. Marmo Burges 1470.

[fiery oasis]

Mine is more lik 5-10 fps

[sullen charm]

I love everything about miniatures

I wonder if there's a whole online library of them so I can look through miniatures of sieges, common life, etc

[vivid solar]

Uniforms?

[lone osprey]

for (mostly) french:
https://jessehurlbut.net/wp/mssart/?page_id=610
for swiss [click on the large blue 'description' button for any illustrated chronicle and it will have a full list of the illustrations - also easy to just use thumbnail view]:
https://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/search/all?sQueryString=Chronik&sSearchField=fullText&sSortField=score&iResultsPerPage=20&aSelectedFacets=

that Jesse Hurlbut website is a fun browse

[hexed relic]

Pourpoints would be a good addition

[hexed relic]

But the game may be a bit late for pourpoints

[naive echo]

There is also https://manuscriptminiatures.com/ (others in this chat put me on to it - being able to search by tags is useful)

[vocal vale]

yes

[next orchid]

Not French, they're using bows

[terse bronze]

Trvke

[verbal bramble]

Then, which soldiers are these?

[robust tendon]

it was a joke

they have bows so they can’t be french, everyone knows only the english use bows

[verbal bramble]

Oooo- Haha!

[viral fjord]

can anyone explain why placart was used? it doesn't protect upper body at all or placart comes with additional armor in upper part?

[fast pagoda]

Paired with a breastplate it causes a doubling of plates in the areas that both of them cover

[viral fjord]

i've been thinking about poor willies who use placart with no chestplate, prob tech demo nuance, thanks

[fast pagoda]

There are a couple miniatures and such that depict plackarts without breastplates, though I don’t know about textual evidence for it

Some show a doublet being worn under one, and others (prob what the game based it off) shows a jupon underneath. Specifically there’s a Flemish depiction in the chronicles of hainaut which is possibly what inspired the game loadout

[lethal adder]

yea for some reason the plackart with no breastplate never made sense to me, even with the historical basis for it. one would think if you cant afford a full cuirass and you had to choose between the plackart and breastplate then the breastplate would be the better option. but what do i know im sure they had their reasons for doing it that way.

i will say wearing the plackart over a jupon is a good look doe

[dim mauve]

Easier to make two smaller pieces of steel than it is to make one very large one. Also the main reason is likely mobility (in the case of a full ciurass), the plackart moves independently of the breastplate somewhat.
In the case of more Italian style ciurasses the only thing really connecting the breastplate and plackart is generally a strap on the front and back. For other ciurasses you can have a rivet in the middle and one on each side holding the two together, but the side rivets are sliding rivets.

Either way it allows the two pieces to move independently.

In fact the middle rivet may have been sliding too, can't remember

Oh also armour can absorb shock better when there's some give, like with riveted segments.

[next orchid]

In some configurations it allows for additional mobility

Oh he said it

[sullen charm]

This ain't 15th century

Woops nvm

You guys said it already

[vivid solar]

Bro had to read one comment below

Smh

[sullen charm]

you say this as if you're about to scratch your head

[sullen charm]

oh

[vivid solar]

Good one tbh

[sullen charm]

we need to prevent this crap especially in #references♥_1450-1470

[sullen charm]

these dang faces are so hilarious

does anyone remember a similarly styled art piece depicting soldiers on a hill throwing rocks down on an incoming force?

[sullen charm]

It looked roughly like this:

[naive echo]

There's a picture from Frossairt's chronicles of the battle of Brignais (1362) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brignais#/media/File%3ABrigniais.jpg It's dramatic showing the rock throwing, but out of this game's time period.

[sullen charm]

Thanks

[terse bronze]

close enough, welcome back Froissart

[terse bronze]

It's not out of the time period, it depics a battle that happened in 1362 but the gear shown is front 15thc

also hi another sun in splendour fan

best symbol ever

[snow nova]

I saw this @terse bronze

and there is a big battle)

[terse bronze]

maybe a nod to where they're from

or at least only frank

[lone osprey]

huh interesting detail lol

[thorny otter]

Could be in one of the Schilling chronicles. There is a similiarly looking depiction of a snow avalanche...

[fast pagoda]

It was the froissart one. If you look he actually fairly accurately depicted it

[lone osprey]

true good memory 💪

[chrome rover]

how come fat tony is still allowed to post here

[quaint shore]

we need a banned from references role

[steep yoke]

🤢

[void stream]

We need a specific role just for those who help send references.

Downloading level 1 restriction update for sending things on this channel, 48% complete.

[terse bronze]

ask people to name this polearm, if they say "voulge" don't give them the role, if they say "halberd" give them the role

should filter a bit

[steep yoke]

Thats a pokey swingy thing obviously

[terse bronze]

that's a halberd

[steep yoke]

bro said "no i dont think I'll take it as a joke"

[quaint shore]

i have never heard or seen anyone call a halberd a voulge

[terse bronze]

don't go on this game's subreddit then

[quaint shore]

i have only seen people call a voulge a voulge

[quaint shore]

I dont use reddit

[terse bronze]

And it's also a common mistake every now and then that people ARE SURE they're right about (calling the thing above "voulge")

[sullen charm]

Wth? I thought he left long ago

[terse bronze]

happened here a bit aswell

[quaint shore]

i see

[chrome rover]

since you guys are talking about big cutting polearms, what exactly is a Bardiche?

[terse bronze]

wepon

[sullen charm]

Another appreciator of sun in splendor

[terse bronze]

planning to get one as a tattoo in the future

[verbal bramble]

Is he banned or did he left?

[verbal bramble]

And I agree: Sometimes banning is, to my eyes, too steep of a punishment, but if an individual has shown to repeatedly post material that doesn't fit the channel...

[void stream]

Agree

Did fat Tony leaved the server ????

[sullen charm]

Not sure. He was already out of the server when he posted the first picture the other day, so I thought he was banned by then.

[verbal bramble]

Seems to have, their profile is inactive

There was also some guy who posted a gif of some Marvel-looking fellow with a spinning ball mace in the now defunct "list of weapons to add to the game", and said some very nasty things when I said that the whole kit (I did say armor, but generally the armor fits with the weapons) wasn't even accurate to the 14th to 16th Centuries. No clue what was his problem.

[lethal adder]

new yorkers watching a hobo beat up someone on the subway

[sullen charm]

funni face strikes again

[void stream]

Full plate armor guy loose to a beggar

such skill issue

[sullen charm]

LOL

"Can I beat Half Sword as beggar" be like

[scenic breach]

I have a picture of me in half armour should I post that here?

[naive echo]

Good point on the armour in the miniature being later than the battle it depicts! And thank you, I spent a while picking the grumpiest looking sun in splendour

[next orchid]

Is this that one Greek guy beating the fuck out of the Macedonian

And then the Greek guy kills himself after

Another Pinterest-bro...

[vivid solar]

In what world is this not a halberd

[sullen charm]

If they say spear, ban them

[fiery sinew]

what if they say sword instead

[sullen charm]

Citizen's arrest

[quaint shore]

Polehammer

[iron tusk]

pole cleaver

[lethal adder]

pole falchion with crows beak

[sullen charm]

this actually brings up a very funny thought

depicting battle scenes out of the 15th century in 15th century gear

like D-Day

[terse bronze]

Or Verdun with modern gear

In the trenches with FAMAS blerrrgh

[sullen charm]

LOL

+10 points if it's illustrated illuminatedly

illuminationly

[sullen charm]

Gettysburg where everyone retains their usual national, regimental, and company colours, but the gear is 15th century

[terse bronze]

I think it's better if it's retroactive

Old battle with more modern gear

[sullen charm]

It's more convenient retoactively but I find both ways equally fun

Stone age: The Ooga Boogas vs Unga Wunga tribe, but with 15th century gear

[terse bronze]

Patay with cave stickman art

[vivid solar]

https://youtube.com/shorts/vKsd0P2H29s?si=61KaCiJI9K2iMQ43

how accurate of a test is this, do you think?

[night kindle]

not accurate didnt annihilate his cranium 😔

[lethal adder]

didnt crumple his armor like a soda can and he didnt implode on impact so its completely inaccurate

i got my phd from Reddit University so yeaaa im pretty much an expert on this stuff.

[quaint shore]

Actually made me go into a fit of rage thats how convincing you were

Theres a reason maces (semi) went out of use

[vivid solar]

I think his conclusion at the end is kinda jank

He basically said swords are better than maces against full plate armour

[quaint shore]

i think hes kinda biased with swords

but i get where he comes from

[vivid solar]

And he said you want to hope your 'sharp, pointy weapon' will break through the armour???

He mightve meant find the gaps/break the mail

But still strange phrasing

[vivid solar]

Also this isnt full power

Obviously theyre not actually trying to kill him

[unkempt rampart]

That’s what he means, he’s German so his English is really rough

[vivid solar]

His english isnt rough

[vocal vale]

i mean that’s kind of the consensus

you just have to know how to use it

"Though even though we strike him with a club or axe... this inflicts little to no harm... for against similar we can never apply great blows... which he who is entirely in white armor cares nothing for"

-Pietro Monte

[dim mauve]

This is the opinion of anyone who's been hit in full armour by a mace.

[dim mauve]

Swords being able to stab through eyeslits immediately makes them far more dangerous than maces against plate armour.

Most effective weapon against guys in plate armour was almost definitely daggers.

[lethal adder]

[visual ledge]

this foot is about to be up your ass is what it is

[next orchid]

No

[next orchid]

Blunt force impact weapons were very popular amongst western European men at arms ~1350-1420 (and then they fall off completely)

I've repeated similar statements but honestly swords seem to have been used just cuz

[next orchid]

These (axes, falcon beaks, and lead mauls) were 2.5+ feet long though, Dane axe length

So not the 1.5-2 foot long tiny maces

But those were short because they wanted them to be short

[dim mauve]

Absolutely, with a dagger you can go through the eye slit, possibly under the helmet, into the groin, inner thigh, or maybe the armpits. Same with swords but to a lesser extent. Certain daggers were also made to & much better at penetrating maile.

This is assuming the enemy is either on the floor or their mobility is compromised some other way, otherwise likely no weapon is particularly effective.

Two handed weapons maybe to an extent but a fully armoured guy isn't going to care if you have a dinky little one handed mace.

Maces are massively effective against maille (even at just reenactments this year I've known people who have received broken elbows or hands through maille at the hands of maces).

That shit aint happening through plate though.

Also those people who had broken bones were very possibly not wearing any padding at all under the maille. This does not excuse the mace user though, you shouldn't be hitting hard enough to break bones full stop.

[next orchid]

Yes and when it comes to the fencing part of harness fencing, the dagger is disadvantaged

[dim mauve]

Idrk about fencing but I'm talking about trying to kill people

[next orchid]

What do you think fencing means

[dim mauve]

Fighting with swords to a set of rules for fun, should I have any reason to know that this is what the conversation was about?

[next orchid]

🤦‍♂️

That's not what fencing means. And the obsession with daggers in pop history is ahistorical and not represented in the sources. Even grappling is seldom done except when you have already positioned yourself in an advantageous position (not by shuffling, but by fencing), and it is further often done with the weapon in your hands, not necessarily with them empty.

All points attack the gaps. The thrust of the sword has more momentum than that of the dagger, and the arming sword (the sword of the man at arms) was not a flimsy 800 gram noodle like all swords are made today, but stiff and heavy. The point of a spear or axe even more.

[vivid solar]

No sword is "stiff and heavy"

[next orchid]

Literally all estocs are

[dim mauve]

Even like a 2kilo arming sword is more bendy than a proper rondel dagger, certain daggers are purpose made to be driven though maile, the blades specifically designed to bust rings apart.

[next orchid]

Cross section determines this thing. Daggers will naturally be stiffer because they are proportionally thicker (not literally so) for their length, but they lack mass.

[dim mauve]

I know this is why daggers are good for that exact purpose

[next orchid]

They lack mass, helloo

Earth to Mars, read

[dim mauve]

Sorry but unless you halfsword a sword its just nowhere even close to as good as daggers are at punching through things, it's not really about the mass of a weapon in this case. You can make far more use of your own strength when driving a dagger through.

This kind of shape is just far better at penetrating maille than basically any medieval sword is going to be, you can also hammer on the back of it lol.

[next orchid]

Mr has not seen the stiffness of historical swords

[dim mauve]

Arming swords are very stiff, they're just not as stiff as daggers

[next orchid]

Yes and they weigh a lot more (= momentum) and are longer (= the tip moves faster)

Modern tests do not display daggers just piercing through everything

[dim mauve]

Didn't say they could, I've made maille that you could certainly never put a dagger through, you just have even less of a chance of putting a sword through it.

[next orchid]

And this is irrelevant since we have historical accounts of points of swords going through maille gorgets (which are the hardest to pierce), and the gussets, and the maille braies

[dim mauve]

Try this in practice 😂

[next orchid]

Are u the German fucker with the heavy ass spear who can't fence for shit lmao

[dim mauve]

I'm English but that sounds like a misinterpretation of me

[next orchid]

Not misinterpretations

Go read Lalaing, Olivier de la Marche, Bayard's biography, etc.

Not even to mention the famous accounts of Benevento

[dim mauve]

Sounds like it, people in this server don't understand how weight distribution works, and like to confuse knowing what weapons were effective at with being bad at using them. Sorry but different weapons just have clear benefits over others in different situations

You can use far more explosive and precise movements when thrusting with a dagger than you can with a sword, like that's just the biology of it.

[next orchid]

Duhhhh lol. The benefit of the dagger is not that it pierces maille especially well (it doesn't), it's that it's short

[dim mauve]

It pierces maille basically better than anything else if you use it right.

That's not to say you can easily pierce maile with it

In fact depending on the maille it's basically useless to even try with a dagger

Anyway I'd love to continue arguing over how people hundreds of years ago slaughtered each other but I've got a medieval market to go to and I want to have a parking space so cya nerd.

[next orchid]

Yeah go to your ren fair

[dim mauve]

It's not a renfair 😘

This is THE market for medieval stuff, all custom made highest quality, this the main place people go to get measured out for super nice jousting armour.

(well I'm going to two and the second one has some more renfair stuff but the first one is the best)

[next orchid]

Why are u still here I thought u had to leave

[dim mauve]

Still a bit of time, just easily embroiled in arguments 💅

[next orchid]

Defending the honor of the renfair maidens

[dim mauve]

Speaking of knives Todd cutler makes pretty nice knives, very pricey though.

[terse bronze]

Huh?

[unkempt rampart]

Did people of the medieval times argue about names for stuff like we do or did they not care as much

[robust tendon]

they just called things the accurate terms

[unkempt rampart]

Fair

[lethal adder]

golly these arguments get pretty heated in this damn server.....

say no to meanies

https://tenor.com/view/wojak-soyjak-love-hearts-soybooru-gif-2173831326360488090

[dim mauve]

They pretty much didn't care.

[hollow basalt]

LMAO, ts so real (I know I'm late but still)

[lethal adder]

omg schrodinger hiiii

[unkempt rampart]

Those red Barbutes are so cool

[robust tendon]

textile covered helmets are neat

[next orchid]

Yes they did

Quite stupidly in those days lol

[sterile crane]

Dont real voulges look kinda like glaives?

[terse bronze]

yes

vou(l)ge = glaives

[sterile crane]

Which is great cus glaives are baller

[sullen charm]

Is this the same artist as that guy who keeps drawing Burgundian dudes

Pretty neat work

Also the center guy has no helmet but retains a bevor just like that one Half Sword boss

[sterile crane]

Guy whitout helmet is gonna get the expert boss treatment

Oh

[sullen charm]

LOL

[sterile crane]

Synced

[sullen charm]

Great minds think alike

[terse bronze]

all these are miniature's box art btw

will idk if it was MADE for thoses boxes but they're on it

the italian knight one is weird, there's too many visored sallets

[sterile crane]

And theres a bunch of sallets with long articulated tails

[robust tendon]

whats wrong with that

italian knights/MAA just didn't wear them much?

[vivid solar]

Oh my peak

[lethal adder]

how neat i had no idea

[terse bronze]

i have never seen those western european visored sallet in italian sources

[robust tendon]

i see

so it was sallets without visors that they typically wore?

[terse bronze]

from what I saw, yeah

(/barbutes)

[robust tendon]

this is me actually

[chrome rover]

What region would have gauntlets like this?
Also do you know who made them?

[robust tendon]

iberia

also maker is rogue armory

[lone osprey]

also germany

[magic sand]

Hey if you guys like knights and armor and stuff you should check out this show called, "Game of Thrones" , it is set in the medieval ages and has knights in some cool armor:

[vivid solar]

Next level rage bait

At least i hope it is

He's not even in this server anymore

[weak halo]

I don't know why they don't hire reenactors for movies and series

[vivid solar]

GoT armour is ugly

[vivid solar]

They dont care

[vivid solar]

Oh god i just noticed the huge ass dents in the Hound's pauldrons

The same motherfucker that commanded the kingsguard btw

[weak halo]

The only thing that looked somewhat like armor was in House of the Dragon and even then it was floppy and horrible

[vivid solar]

Yeah

That joust was such a mess

The most fantasy thing about the show is that that joust didnt spark a huge ass battle

What do you mean knights of noble families are just going around murdering each other

[weak halo]

Yeah, it's stupid

[weak halo]

I still can't get over the double gorget that still somehow leaves his neck exposed

[ancient pivot]

tbf that's like the worst one from the tourney segment, he's supposed to have shittier armour than everyone else

[weak halo]

His shittier armor is ironically closer to real armor than the rest

[ancient pivot]

I think this guy's kit is decent, not sure what helmet he wore though

a shame that none of the armour from the tourney appeared anywhere else in the show though, the rest looked like ass

[vivid solar]

It's not shitty in a realistic way tho

[weak halo]

Let's all just be thankful they didn't give him the For Honor helmet

[vivid solar]

He has 2 gorgets?

[weak halo]

Yeah, there's one directly on the helmet and one on his shoulders

[vivid solar]

Ah

What's up with GoT and it's obsession with gorgets ontop of the breastplate

[weak halo]

The bottom one is somewhat similar to a great bascinet neckpiece

[vivid solar]

Looking at real beautiful armour is so refreshing lol

[unkempt rampart]

That gap in the neck is atrocious

[weak halo]

And the one on the helmet is like a bevor plate

[vivid solar]

Sword magnet

[weak halo]

It's beyond atrocious

[unkempt rampart]

Armor is always so stupid when it comes to media

And it’s so absurd

If your armor wasn’t good you were going to die, it’s quite literally life and death

So when it sucks in movies and tv shows it’s glaring

[vivid solar]

The crazy thing is that realistic armour just objectively looks better

Like it's not even aesthetics atp

Unless looking like ass is the aesthetic they're going for

[unkempt rampart]

People just don’t notice

And it matters less when it comes to the actual piece of media

[vivid solar]

But when you point it out people get so hostile

[unkempt rampart]

For example, Kenneth Brannagh’s Henry V is a really good movie but the armor in it is like recycled Monty python stuff. Meanwhile the King with timothee chalamet is a terrible movie but the armor is on a way higher level than the Kenneth Brannagh one

[vivid solar]

The King doesnt have good armour

[unkempt rampart]

Compared to Henry V it did

But on its own yeah it sucked hard

[vivid solar]

Lmao

[unkempt rampart]

That original Laurence Olivier one can’t be beat though

[vivid solar]

Do you guys have examples of full neck protection that still allowed head movement? In the time frame ofc

[weak halo]

Honestly I can't think of articulated full neck protection before 1490-1500