💣┇weapons-gadgets

[alpine sphinx]

dash lights and long range maps make my playstyle basically completely obsolete, even with lock bolt and goo gun

like i can lock bolt a light and hit them with goo twice, and still get deleted because they have 3 charges of dash and it doesnt matter if they mess up 2 of them

of course its also a skill issue sometimes, but i'd say in many cases there is barely anything you can do. chasing is impossible too so you can basically just sit in a corner and pray they do something stupid

[tardy light]

sometimes when i play ks i feel disrespectful to sledge culture, taking one of its best utilities without the melee downside

[slow linden]

True,just feels like they're missing something,maybe a qm animation is just that,maybe not

[alpine sphinx]

Sledge Structure damage needs to be buffed, often times you just break a tiny piece of the wall, or dont break it at all

[tardy light]

thats probably not a damage issue but a hitbox issue, no?

[stoic garden]

clearly sledge m2 needs structural multihit

[tardy light]

with ks, ill shoot the wall 2 times and it wont break, but its cause i shot two different segments of the wall

[alpine sphinx]

yes, but it does affect its ability to dish out structural damage

[tardy light]

goodbye fps

[stoic garden]

today my fps in Kyoto dipped to 40, inside a building, i can handle that shit

[alpine sphinx]

no hes right tho, fact is, it already has structural multihit (should have multihit on players too imo) but it sucks because its very restrictive

[slow linden]

Needs all multihit

[tardy light]

my favorite finals memory is being on the tower in kyoto, someone dropped it from the base, and as it was falling my M put a pad and we escaped, it was so epic and trailer worthy

[stoic garden]

in the same match i qm'd a medium like 5 times cuz i didn't wanna reload my lewis then rpg'd his ass, both my teammates were screaming and laughing at me cuz it was a tight wipe 1v1

[tardy light]

tbf lewis 3.55 empty reload is miserable, qm probably the right choice

[stoic garden]

yes he definitely could've killed me, he had akm iirc

but he accepted the qm duel, when he decided to flee and reload i pulled out my rpg and finished the job

very hilarious sequence

[slow linden]

I want to wallbang with sledge again

[stoic garden]

GOOKING???

[alpine sphinx]

you can still hit enemies behind walls with sledge

[unkempt moss]

Tis I

[stoic garden]

a white tear flows down my leg

[slow linden]

Are you certain?

[sudden pewter]

You can

[stoic garden]

yup

[alpine sphinx]

yeah

[slow linden]

Can't hit them through floors

[alpine sphinx]

you can

[stoic garden]

which is why you run pyro grenade o algo

[slow linden]

Also I want to hit multiple people at the same time,I hate two lights being in the same place and being robbed of a double kill

[slow linden]

The only time I run rpg over Pyro nade is with sledge

[versed finch]

if the ARN doesn't get reworked and nerfed imma crash out

it's just an overtuned SMG with double the range and ammo

[alpine sphinx]

Real, it was stupid this was ever removed. Sledge has gotten so many unnecessary nerfs

[slow linden]

It's just 2 xp54s with way more range

Absolute brain cancer

[versed finch]

and CB was the problem...

[alpine sphinx]

All the light smgs can rot in hell if you ask me

[versed finch]

i can take SB, I would be fine if there's a whole team of CB mediums

[stoic garden]

i find it funny that one patch in s6 they also decided to buff its mag swap speed by 20%

[versed finch]

but like 1 ARN light ruins my day, it's just not fun to play against

[slow linden]

M11 is funny,that's coming from a heavy main,xp54 is based,it should never be buffed again tho,it's in a perfect state

[versed finch]

it really only loses in the extreme range, and thats really where every weapon kinda fails

[alpine sphinx]

M11 is the worst offender, it's a dumb weapon for dumb people. M11 skill floor is literally under the basement floor

[stoic garden]

it loses vs lh1 at extreme range, that's about it, it has bad ttks at close range, but everything else is really strong

[versed finch]

But it's a light, and if they're running dash, it can become twice as hard to even land shots on them

[stoic garden]

and this is why you play heavy, my friend

[versed finch]

I do 😭

[stoic garden]

hop on hyper defensive ass loadouts

[versed finch]

My average loadout

Despite how bad of a state MGL is, I for some reason can drop 20 kill PB and PS matches with it

[stoic garden]

semi autos... kinda invalidate half the advantage dash gives since u can just wait for them to dash without losing much damage

[slow linden]

I mean,it does take no skill but that doesn't mean it's unbalanced

[sudden pewter]

MGL is good I’ve started using it as of recent and have had insane games

[tardy light]

MGL is stronger in PB than usual, and people in Pb also suck

[versed finch]

MGL needs some assistance, but I think calling it D tier is overexaggerating it

[stoic garden]

according to solar, m11 users have a plethora of ways to approach enemy teams and invalidate any range difference to abuse its strong ttks!

[tardy light]

a cracked light will be shooting at you while dashing

[slow linden]

It's part of one of the easiest weapon types to use,it's only natural it would take no skill

[stoic garden]

and a cracked bfr player will land their shots between dash micro cooldowns

[tardy light]

Maybe, but its 100% easier to just track with lewis/m60/shak, semi-auto is absolutely (in my eyes) a disadvantage against dash vs full auto

[slow linden]

Not current bfr,most light weapons out dps it after the cycle time and firerate nerfs

[alpine sphinx]

it is unbalanced because dash exists. Literally every toxic interaction light has is because of dash, because of its ability to completely cancel out entire playstyles like nothing else can in this game at practically no cost since embark for some reason decided to give dash 3 charges and no cooldown between uses

[slow linden]

As much as I don't like dash,winchclaw is a far more problematic spec,I'd rather dash was replaced with a meter that triples your movement speed imo

[sudden pewter]

For sure, outside the Pike or Spear I don’t believe anything is D tier.

[alpine sphinx]

Dash makes SH toxic, makes sword toxic, gives dagger the potential to be toxic, makes all smgs toxic against anything with a relatively short range, and completely defeats the purpose of all the other specs because its simply better because of the amount of charges

[stoic garden]

has synergy ≠ toxic
i do get the playstyle hardcounter and spec polarizing parts tho

[slow linden]

I can track a light that's just moving very fast,dash basically teleports you on the enemies screen imo

[alpine sphinx]

winch and dash are 2 variations of the same problem.

[stoic garden]

i suppose the issues is that dash enables literally everything, and light subconsciously gets balanced around it, i bet they wouldn't have nerfed sh damage if dash wasn't so polarizing

[alpine sphinx]

Synergies can be toxic

[versed finch]

I'll never forgive embark for what they did to the pike...

[slow linden]

The right type of synergy is toxicity,winchclaw is toxic,dash can be imo,the most toxic players I've met used one of those two specs

[tardy light]

you mean toxic like personality or playstyle?

[stoic garden]

we need "what the spec you use says about you"

[tardy light]

i might be based asf using grapple and goo mostly then

[stoic garden]

I'm insanely cool for using Demat and being a suffragette medium or something

[slow linden]

Both,teabagging,ect,and the few I've had the misfortune of speaking to just have that voice,you'll know it when you hear it

[alpine sphinx]

Dash, Winch, And defibrillator are easily the most toxic gadgets per class in the game. All of them create functionality that cant be replicated by anything else, making them practically mandatory in most situations. tbh i'd say winch is the least severe offender of this since its pick rate is relatively low compared to the other two, but embark is working to change that as well (goo nerf incoming on thursday btw)

[tardy light]

i would agree, my guess is probably cause toxic = more likely to care about winning = more likeky to play meta (dash and winch)

99% of toxicity disappears when people stop caring so much about winning and just start trying to have fun, peak gameplay is when you can do both

ive queued into unranked using silly loadouts and teammates are like "seriously [insert loadout]" my brother it is unranked

[versed finch]

Defib has got to go. Give it the Stun Gun treatment.

[slow linden]

Two of those aren't gadgets,but they all must die nonetheless,but complaining about the weapons when the problem is the specialization is the exact oil brained mentality that got heavy nerfed to shit around winchclaw

[sudden pewter]

They killed the Pike only to replace it with the repeater

[alpine sphinx]

yes please

[stoic garden]

is pike even that bad 💔

[versed finch]

Ngl, I wouldn't care too much if Defib got the Thermal Vision treatment either. Same with Winch and Dash. like if something is clearly broken, just take it out, fix it, then put it back in or scrap it completely

[alpine sphinx]

pike needs 4 shots to kill a light, repeater needs 2

[versed finch]

I'd rather lose a toxic peice of equipment than waste my time trying to play against it

[versed finch]

All pike has is range, it's got the highest modifier on medium so you'll keep more damage over range, but the Repeater has a much better TTk

[slow linden]

It's indeed quite dogshit

[stoic garden]

looks at ttks 💔

[slow linden]

Every other medium weapon out performs it

Literally all of them 😭

[versed finch]

And lets be honest, we never see that many true sniper duels

[alpine sphinx]

this would instantly increase the health of the game. Cashouts wouldnt so easily be dragged out of theirs spawns onto streets (less roof camping), lights would have to start about where to engage again (higher skill floor for glass canon class) and mediums could finally bring something else than fucking defib without throwing

[stoic garden]

i think pike might even have worse ammo effiency as well

[versed finch]

Season 11 hopefully pls fix the health of this game

[alpine sphinx]

I am praying

[versed finch]

Honestly, it's either the equipment goes, or I go atp...

[alpine sphinx]

but as its looking right now, im gonna have to find a new playstyle starting thursday

[versed finch]

I'm still confused why Embark hasn't realized these are problems. And if they have, they're clearly taking their time to fix them

[stoic garden]

i wonder how many games out there have players FEARING for their niche ass playstyle to get nerfed (to the ground)

[alpine sphinx]

Embark is happy with the current game balance. 90% pickrates arent a sign of meta stagnation to them, but a sign that the game is in a "good place"

[stoic garden]

I don't like seeing fcar everywhere lol

genuinely neither fcar nor lewis needed the 23 damage

[alpine sphinx]

not nerfed. Removed. If the goo gets nerfed to .2 goo sledge is not a playstyle anymore, it will be literally impossible since they wont synergize at all anymore, so you might as well just choose something else

[versed finch]

We want the finals the be a game where you can succeed with ANY loadout
Current pickrates:
Fcar: 90%
M11: 90%
Shak: 90%
Everything else: 0.8%

[alpine sphinx]

Its just another unnecessary buff they decided to give to already good weapons in order to appease the pro scene

[tardy light]

What is hilarious is that the immediate alternative is winch haha

[alpine sphinx]

Yeah, like i said, embark is working to change that winch isnt as highly picked as dash or defi

[stoic garden]

"we felt that mediums had too much skill issue so we buffed the easiest AR to play"

iirc essentially what they said

[alpine sphinx]

my favourite dev notes are "X wasnt a problem or outperforming the competition, we nerfed it anyways"

[stoic garden]

was this for sledge or cl40

[alpine sphinx]

flashback to when SR-84 was turned into a projectile weapon after 40m. The dev note literally acknowledged that the weapon wasnt even doing well

A sniper being oppressive at long ranges??????????

[sudden pewter]

The existence of TA and Powershift continue to blight the game

[versed finch]

Terminal Attack: Dead
Power Shift: Has a counter called heavy

[alpine sphinx]

Not in my vidyagame

[spring oasis]

Did you make this up or is this an actual quote or paraphrase?

[versed finch]

TF they mean "maintaining the skill level and responsiveness in medium-to-long-range encounters".
Didn't they just buff the projectile so that you can actually use it beyond the hitscan range

Seems to me the "responsiveness" went out the window with the full hitscan model

[alpine sphinx]

Embark: "we dont want melee to be a button mashing contest" Also embark:

[stoic garden]

not quite, but they acknowledge that a minimal ttk difference made people think the weapon got a bad nerf and didn't want to play it, so they gave it another buff despite it being quite good already

the change was going from 520 to 540 rpm, the previous season it was buffed to 23 damage and nerfed by 20 rpm

[alpine sphinx]

"pick rate increased, but not as much as we had hoped" on one of the most picked medium weapons is fucking crazy

[stoic garden]

i literally picked up the fcar when it first got the damage increase and loved it since then personally

i found the rpm buff extremely unnecessary

it kills literally as fast as p90 with very little downsides

[alpine sphinx]

but why does embark seem to want full auto mid range weapons in the high pickrates, they also buffed M60, Lewis, P90, V9S etc for no reason because they were already popular

[stoic garden]

i think p90 did need the buff, the range really was shit ngl

[alpine sphinx]

they have literally forgotten about weapons like the mgl, all melee (i guess dual blades got a buff in s9 which was good) and so many other weapons

[stoic garden]

but for everything else i agree

[alpine sphinx]

A P90 is not supposed to be good at range, the weapon was already super popular and had a high pickrate

[stoic garden]

p90 is supposed to chamber rounds that make it have more range than smgs but aight, still, it really had little meta relevancy with the range it had on release

and now fcar has matching ttks with it, making p90 mostly obsolete unless you have it out for mesh players

[alpine sphinx]

My point is why the fuck to they give micro buffs to already good weapons when there are weapons that have close to 0% pickrate in ranked

[stoic garden]

we've said this a billion times, embark has no idea what they're doing

watch them buff famas cuz nobody plays it anymore because of fcar

[alpine sphinx]

I think they do, they just have a very specific vision of how they want their game to be, and they heavily cater to a specific target audience while making no accomodations for the rest whatsoever

[stoic garden]

i wonder what their vision of cashout is supposed to be

[alpine sphinx]

cashout on the street and rooftop shootout

otherwise they would have adressed that ages ago. This has been the winning strat for basically the entire games existence, and especially since winch was released

and they also want to cater to light players since a lot of casual players play light (very badly, and die fast) so they give them op utility like dash, and experiment with more health for them, so they can increase their survivability, while doing nothing to adress their damage output. Having the respec test be done without a full weapon rebalance was completely pointless tbh, the data they gained from it cant be worth a lot

[slender bear]

They do this a lot tbh
They want to make Light tankier to address a common skill issue that new players struggle with (a terrible change too, why tf would anyone who actually likes the class want to go slower while still dying in two shots?) and they gave the class who's only win condition is aiming decently a spec that removes the need to aim. Medium is still kinda in Limbo too, it feels like they don't really care about the classes identity bc you can still run a full defensive build and just be a mini Heavy with better utility or you can be a bigger, faster Light.
I get that they want the classes to be interchangeable, but I think fully breaking down the walls between them is the wrong play

[swift agate]

5.7x28mm was never meant to operate at much further range than 9mm or .45. it is very much a close quarters caliber just as more conventional pistol calibers are. it only has a slightly better effective range as a byproduct of its primary purpose as a small caliber with high penetrative force for use by backline troops in the event of a paratrooper attack, where they would otherwise only have 9mm sidearms that don't perform well against body armor. 5.7 performs a bit better than 9mm between 100 and 150 yards just by virtue of being a lighter projectile with more energy behind it, but that's far from its intended use case

[alpine sphinx]

realism is irrelevant for balance

a 100kg tall ass man cant survive a sledghammer to the face either and yet here we are

[swift agate]

I was just responding to the guy that claimed that the p90 was designed for longer ranges than conventional pistol caliber submachine guns even though that isn't true. I wasn't making arguing for or against any balance changes

[winged wharf]

my Fcar has been stuck on lvl 7 for seasons

[tardy light]

shoot with it
shoot the enemies i mean

[somber tiger]

I just went up against 3 sword players in the final round.

None of them even knew how to use sword lunge, they just ran at people with m1.

[tardy light]

hahaha

[fair sable]

As a new player myself I can confirm this is an issue for newbie sword users lol

I only learned lunging when i was pitted against another sword user and saw their replay of killing me

[unkempt moss]

Oh no. They've infiltrated the sanctuary

[slow linden]

Who?

[fair sable]

what i also play the finals 😤

[slow linden]

Industry plant frfr

[broken mulch]

im not built for ts

i didnt even realize you could spawn camp in this game bro they pulling out forbidden techniques on my ass

ungodly aim

worst of all it was kyoto

[rare echo]

Can the anti gravity cube be glitched via barrel or nade?

[slow linden]

Apparently the cheating problem is up to 10 this season,so I've heard

[unkempt moss]

The deep state

[slow linden]

They're everywhere

[unkempt moss]

Nobody here actually plays the finals. We just shit post and complain about the game.

[vital anvil]

But I do

[unkempt moss]

Never seen you here before. My point stands.

[vital anvil]

I’m always here just never seen

[unkempt moss]

Its alright. I think we scared him off.

We can't let people on the payroll catch wind of one of the only good channels.

If people see the pinks posting here itll draw others from the quarantine zones. It'll be swarming with people.

[quartz moss]

when is heavy getting invis and knife

[unkempt moss]

Oh god it's already happening

Mods ban that pink from this channel

[fair sable]

oh I am not at that level yet. still enjoying it

[fair sable]

But im pink, that'd be cannibalism.

[unkempt moss]

Its joever no cap

[hexed tulip]

enjoy that phase while it lasts

[unkempt moss]

Catter not here to defend his duchy

Can you get me on as a community manager?

[fair sable]

You need to apply to embark directly

[unkempt moss]

We have someone here that very much cares about communication between players and embark. Would that be a good position for him or no?

Its not me.

[fair sable]

Yes it would

[slow linden]

Cannibalism is based tho

They don't call it a manwich for nothing

[fair sable]

gives a whole new meaning to you are what you eat

[unkempt moss]

Get catter on the payroll

He will be a huge asset for S12. Trust

[slow linden]

He is the Goo messiah (no he is not)

[edgy estuary]

Wish we had access to more weapon and gadget stats; I want to know my playtime, accuracy, headshots with weapons, uses and damage blocked with gadgets, how many quick melee elims we have, and just more concise breakdowns on the career stats in general? Why isn’t assists a metric we are able to see? And vault steals/plugs?

Now I know they have this “8 billion points of data” it irks me how little we have access to, knowing that such a simple thing like a little more data can go a long way with players.

[slow linden]

(He doesn't even like Goo)

[unkempt moss]

No he actively seeks my destruction.

[slow linden]

More like the anti Goo,but he also hates winchclaw so idk

[unkempt moss]

But he wants the finals to change as little as possible to keep it similar to the original vision. So that kinda works for Embarks ideas. He just wants small changes to sharpen it up

And he hates spear throw and I know embark agrees with that.

He just wants better communicating and UI changes type shit.

[slow linden]

Maybe

If any of our council were part of the balance team the game would be funner in minutes

[sudden pewter]

If you stinky melee users want a stun you gotta earn it. Throwable beartrap, if you miss it's fubar.

[slow linden]

Goo gun I use purely with flamethrower and minigun,I run sledgehammer with charge and slam and mesh shield,overoptimizing melee builds defeats the point of using melee in a shooting game

[sudden pewter]

First Riot Game Ever.

[slow linden]

Goosledge was funny but tbh it's kinda just ass when you aren't using it on coughing babies,though that's a problem with how sledgehammer was gutted around winchclaw,not with goo gun itself

[sudden pewter]

Goo stun needs to go (specifically with goo gun) as theres no actual expenditure of resources and it's way too easy to do.

[slow linden]

Nah

The resources is the ammo

[sudden pewter]

The only CD is a reload, it isn't meaningful.

[slow linden]

Try reloading your utility in the middle of a firefight

[sudden pewter]

Yeah lemme sit behind this wall for 2s, now I can stun enemy gamers for another 18s.

At least Goo Grenade is a potential safety net that has to be expended for stalling or locking, alongside landing the throw

[slow linden]

Goo grenade is far more annoying than Goo gun is

[sudden pewter]

It should lose a charge I agree

[slow linden]

Run through doorway,press button,instant safety

[sudden pewter]

Oh you outplayed your opponent that beefed their approach? Too bad, they have a goo grenade. You bypassed the first one? Well they have another.

[unkempt moss]

Dude uses googun for a quarter of a season and thinks hes an expert. Wild.

[slow linden]

Projectile,unreliable shitty hitreg,spread

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/kinh-trai-push-eyeglasses-eyeglasses-gif-13860249

[slow linden]

I've literally shot entire goo canisters through opponents not locking them once

[slow linden]

He beat up disabled orphans for 5 minutes and thinks it's unbalanced

[unkempt moss]

I try to get him on the embark team and this is how im repaid.

[sudden pewter]

Goo planes making their return is priority number 1

That shit was funny af and took an entire loadout, "we removed it because of poor pacing" my ass.

[slow linden]

Trading the church's most important artifact for the restoration of a parlor trick is a scam

[sudden pewter]

Sorry boo, stuns are No Good

[unkempt moss]

This is why I cant take stuff they say seriously

[sudden pewter]

"Yeah we removed the change that made barricade SSS tier because of server performance"

[unkempt moss]

Stuns are fine on tanks. Thats like a video game standard.

[sudden pewter]

Heavy is a brawler, the issue with stuns existing throught the games history (specifically for The Finals) is they're too easy to land and they aren't fun to fight against.

[slow linden]

Goo stun is good,you can literally shoot back if they don't leg lock you,and if you goo their face I'm pretty sure it ends much quicker

[unkempt moss]

If you want to reduce lock time thats fine. But it removes a lot of utility if you dont do it correctly.

[sudden pewter]

The common MMO lineup isn't applicable to The Finals. A Heavy can completely forgo defensive options, the same way Medium doesn't exist purely to support.

[edgy estuary]

no way you genuinely believe that 20 ammo makes the goo gun a challenge, because that is what you are implying.

[noble goblet]

Hey everyone I'm looking for a team up I'm fairly new I'm lvl 13 I've unlocked all skills I'm looking to do team death match or what anyone wants to do

[slow linden]

Look at my other responses dumbass

[sudden pewter]

#lfg-na-casual

[unkempt moss]

My warrior in FFXIV would out DPS the dps so you are defeated.

[slow linden]

Projectile,dogshit hitreg,spread

[unkempt moss]

Triple fell cleave baby

[sudden pewter]

My Arcanist would open a book and cast twist of fate so you're stinky and dead and I will not revive you

Hold up my PB queue popped

[slow linden]

My stamblade with templar subclass can out heal pretty much anything so I win

[unkempt moss]

Them nerfing googun by removing lock is a surefire wat to make sure i dont comeback to the game unfortunately

[edgy estuary]

Nah goo gun stun in its current state is a lame coping mechanism for hammer nerfs and it’ll be great when they manage to remove it in a way that doesn’t break the game and hopefully balance melee around not needing it.

[slow linden]

Winchclaw was always the cause for hammer nerfs,don't put that shit on goo gun

[unkempt moss]

GooGun is fun because of all the tech and situational knowledge you need. Lock is integral to a lot of really strong stuff not just melee.

Saying its a melee crutch means your googun game is whack af

[slow linden]

Goo lock haters acting like sledgehammer is the only weapon in the game that it can be used with

[unkempt moss]

I use that shit on every single heavy weapon.

And I barely touch melee

[unkempt moss]

And I also dont trust embark to not fuck a ton of other tech by removing lock

[slow linden]

As do I

[edgy estuary]

Even if they made it so it just goo’d your feet and you could shoot back would make a huge difference. Goo gun is fun in a lot of ways yeah but clearly most use it because it completely locks up your opponent, and that isn’t even its intended purpose.

[unkempt moss]

How often are you guys coming across googuns? Im usually the only googun in my games. And when they do show up theyre a dumbass that have no idea what they are doing with it.

[edgy estuary]

Dude of course someone who mains it isn’t going to want any issues addressed with it, that is like asking winch mains if winch is balanced, they will always say it needs a buff.

[stoic garden]

almost every time i see goo gun it's a goo locker sledge that annoys me the whole game

[slow linden]

The only goo gun mains I see are sledge mains that I kinda just hold at bay and burn to death

Half the time with their own goo

Also goo gun hard counters winchclaw so it can do no wrong,anything that makes the parasite suffer is good and just

[unkempt moss]

Are you reading what im saying? They will screw up a ton of other tech because embark is incompetent. Im worried they'll remove things like stall, parry, defuse, and a handful of other random little techs

[edgy estuary]

Yeah exactly, sure there are people like gooking who maybe play it differently, but the vast majority just like the majority of winch mains, and stun gun mains before them use it for the cheesy stun mechanic.

[unkempt moss]

If you want to reduce it to .2 seconds thats fine.

[slow linden]

It will

[slow linden]

It was not fine

[unkempt moss]

The thing about googun players, legit ones, they will always find a way to adapt. Even if you remove lock you guys will be crying about something else later that it does.

[slow linden]

It was neigh unusable ass,sure I basically got a dps buff from it but using it with anything but an automatic was ass

[unkempt moss]

I meant if they apply the patch and it doesnt full break it. The length of the stun isnt what makes it strong unless you're griefing someone.

[slow linden]

Pretty sure one of those goo gun clips was from during the nerf,the two heavies

[slow linden]

I'm well aware,the timing of the stun is everything,the length is less so

[unkempt moss]

But when they remove lock and you see even less of them around the light and medium people will start crying for more nerfs to something else.

Isnt the googun nerf this week? 10.6?

[slow linden]

The unworthy will burn upon pillars of Goo

[unkempt moss]

Im just glad theyre staying on brand with removing fun stuff from everyone.

[slow linden]

I'm not

It's a philosophy I wish desperately that they'd betray

[unkempt moss]

All good things come to an end unfortunately

[slow linden]

Yeah,they end,but embark murders them

[edgy estuary]

Stun mechanics aren’t fun for anyone but the user, I have no doubt that every goo stun heavy didn’t shut up about or raged about stun gun too. They removed the stun from that and nobody complains about it now, so I am sure goo gun would be the same, in general it is one of the coolest specs in the game and the creative heavies with it are some of the coolest people I’ve met

[unkempt moss]

Do you use it?

[slow linden]

Stungun was hitscan and guaranteed death,winchclaw guarantees death,goo gun doesn't

[unkempt moss]

Youre not going to convince this guy that goolock should stay.

[slow linden]

I've escaped plenty of goo sledges

[edgy estuary]

I don’t blame people for abusing something the devs gave them and did nothing about though, I think it is bs to add things into a game, let people learn tech and develop a playstyle then nerf it into the ground years later

[unkempt moss]

Youre right. They should remove it.

[slow linden]

Lack of contest is defeat

[unkempt moss]

Embark agrees with him. We lost before it even started.

Stun isnt fun for anyone but the user. He's right.

[slow linden]

Honestly remove heavy and light,slap all their shit on medium fuck archetypes

[edgy estuary]

It’s true, just like I know I won’t convince you that it is an issue. Doesn’t mean it can’t be a healthy discussion.

[unkempt moss]

No, I agree with you.

[edgy estuary]

Ah sorry meant the other person

[unkempt moss]

If our metric is that it needs to be fun for both sides im with you.

I think its a weird metric but if thats what were basing it off of then its a wrap.

[slow linden]

If you aren't going to consider my answers at all then it's not a healthy conversation

What if I wanted your favorite weapon or gadget or spec nerfed into the ground,would you seriously entertain that idea?

[slow linden]

But it wouldn't be fun for both sides at that point would it,one side loses something that the other had counters to already

[sudden pewter]

PB game went well 🙂

[unkempt moss]

Yeah I think it's a weird metric.

[slow linden]

Nice

[unkempt moss]

Ive never understood balancing around whats fun for everyone.

[edgy estuary]

I am responding to you man, I don’t know what else you want? I just don’t agree with your counter point that it shouldn’t be nerfed because you find it fun?

[slow linden]

Everyone includes tourists

[vital anvil]

Everything’s fun

[slow linden]

So long as it's usable

[unkempt moss]

Eventually we will have the pillow fight everyone so desperately craves from the finals.

[sudden pewter]

I think the best compromise is yikes suggestion where Goo stuns exponentially less the more blobs are shot at them. First blob would act as it currently does with subsequent blobs doing next to nothing. Would still allow people to farm pad kills and slow targets but they get one good use and after that they need to use something else

[manic field]

they should really add more attachments for guns ,stocks ,grips etc

[slow linden]

Everyone gets a pillow,except light

[unkempt moss]

The pillow does 149 though

[sudden pewter]

Absolutely fucking not.

[vital anvil]

They need to add a anti rifle for heavy

[slow linden]

You have liver cancer

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/poopman-poop-stain-homunculus-gif-5894943418330622711

[manic field]

no

[unkempt moss]

This guy gets it.

[slow linden]

You have brain cancer

[manic field]

i am just kind of bored with the base guns

but not too much attachments like in cod

[vital anvil]

Come on it would be a fun gun

[slow linden]

It would be fundamentally unbalanced

[unkempt moss]

Attachments at fun for both sides. So maybe hes cooking

[edgy estuary]

Removing or reducing stun is hardly nerfing it into the ground, let’s not be dramatic. And people call/have called for nerfs of things I play all the time, Model, p90, throwing knives, dash, demat, shockwave, cloak, charge. Doesn’t mean I am blind to where they are coming from, most weapons and gadgets have their frustrating uses, some just happen to be more severe or take on an unexpected identity that the devs never intended.

[slow linden]

The only 50bmg I want heavy to have is the original gun it was made for

[unkempt moss]

I agree. Get rid of lock.

[edgy estuary]

More attachments could be a good way in the future when they have core balance sorted out to bring more variation

But frankly the less things they have to balance right now the better

[manic field]

goo gun is not overpowered since you cn just jump around and make them miss.

[slow linden]

The only thing that makes goo gun remotely good is goo combos

[manic field]

or use flash grenade to blinde them

[unkempt moss]

Jumping around to make someone miss is fun for both sides. Maybe this guy is cooking. Im back on the dont remove lock team

[slow linden]

Patching holes is nearly useless

[manic field]

noo

[edgy estuary]

Starting to think you’re not really the archdeacon of goo

[manic field]

for cashout its good

[slow linden]

I am,but they reduced goo's health by quite a bit a long time ago,you can just chew through goo with like 10 bullets with any automatic now

[edgy estuary]

like if all you can use it for is the stun mechanic and you are threatening to quit of changes are you really a main of something if you can’t adapt or make it work in every state.

[unkempt moss]

Thats true

[slow linden]

I do more than stun,I mainly start big fires,stun helps,but most of my kills are from filling the building with burning goo

[edgy estuary]

Obviously I am not being 100% serious, I am sure you are good goo player

[manic field]

well you cant get both. either goo is overpowered or it is weak enough for anyone to play and have fun

[unkempt moss]

Im dogshit with googun

[slow linden]

Patching holes is useless for what I do with Goo

[sudden pewter]

Good for 1:30 iirc

[slow linden]

?

[sudden pewter]

Goo lifespan

[unkempt moss]

Thats how long goo lasts

[slow linden]

Ah,yeah the lifespan is whatever I was referring to it's raw health

You can just mulch through it with like anything

[manic field]

soo

[edgy estuary]

Also you really should stop using cancer as an insult, some of us do have it.

[unkempt moss]

Someone needs to tell me what to think

[manic field]

you guys do know right that its main purpose is for movement right?

[slow linden]

Every human being has some cancer some just have cancer that their body cannot fight

[manic field]

true

[unkempt moss]

Goo? I thought it was locking. Then everyone said im a fat idiot for goolocking. So then I thought it was patching holes. But then thats only 90 seconds. Now im using it for movement.

[slow linden]

You will put your life savings on red

[manic field]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-sad-truth-thats-the-painful-truth-thats-the-reality-of-it-thats-the-sad-reality-michael-douglas-gif-15605622

[edgy estuary]

No shit, doesn’t mean you need to use it as an insult?

[unkempt moss]

You did say he was bad at Goo. Gloves kinda came off at that point for him.

[manic field]

what

[unkempt moss]

Hes the Archdeacon

[slow linden]

I wasn't even talking to him

[edgy estuary]

I actually said he is probably a good goo gun user.

[manic field]

?

[unkempt moss]

You took his name from him. Now he has to change it

You said I was bad at goo.

[slow linden]

It's not my fault that Healthcare companies and governments suppress cures,I just pour gas on the fire,I don't even have a lighter

[unkempt moss]

That hurt my feelings. All my friends on here know me as GooKing and now they think I'm a fraud if I keep that name.

[manic field]

somewhat true

[unkempt moss]

Catter said I was worthless for goolocking people earlier.

[manic field]

bro ,nobody cares

[unkempt moss]

I should have never come back. This isnt fair.

[slow linden]

I gave up my name for two whole seasons in hopes that they'd remove winchclaw,the only one who can take my name is me

[edgy estuary]

Yeah but as someone with cancer I notice when people use it as an insult, it shouldn’t even be an argument? Just recognise it is wrong and be better?

[manic field]

bros going through a crises

[unkempt moss]

Now I'm in trouble because someone said the C word

[manic field]

?

[unkempt moss]

I don't want to say it. I might get banned.

[slow linden]

I'm not arguing,I threw out a random ailment at a random coal take that I don't care to argue with and I can't find my wizard memes,so I just said they have cancer

[unkempt moss]

This discord is all I have.

[slow linden]

Cooter?

California? Calligraphy?

Those sick fucks doing calligraphy

[sudden pewter]

Look at how clean this bounce is.

[slow linden]

Very nice

[sudden pewter]

I did secure the kill but I had to cut it out

[slow linden]

You sure? Pretty sure I just watched some fcar clay brain beam them

[sudden pewter]

Nah I jumped in heroically to save 5 infants from a fire in the main building and on my way out clapped the lights cheeks

I promptly dropped the infants off at an animal rescue that boards exclusively pitbulls. (goo sledge mains)

[slow linden]

I believe you only because I don't want that fcar user to have that kill

[sudden pewter]

This was a funny bit too

[unkempt moss]

I cant believe WepsNgadg became anti-goo in my time away.

[sudden pewter]

I absolutely adore goo, the stun is just fake and gay 🙁

[unkempt moss]

A Gooer plays his main game and his home burns to the ground.

[slow linden]

It's a vocal minority ranging from tourists to misguided scholars like catter

[sudden pewter]

I hope you've learned your lesson. Never leave again.

[unkempt moss]

They'll keep coming for GooGun. Its too strong.

[sudden pewter]

S12 will introduce different goo types

Holding my hand up to my head like Magneto I can see the future

[unkempt moss]

After lock it wont be fun to play against because you have to shoot and destroy it.

[sudden pewter]

I've boiled the umbilical cords and put Nirnroot into my Dr.Pepper I'm on that Chim shit.

[unkempt moss]

And then they'll come for the magazine size because heavy shouldnt have movement.

[slow linden]

Red goo,more burn damage,burns quicker,can't be extinguished,minimal goo lock time 😈

[unkempt moss]

And it shouldnt break line o' sight so that will be taken away

[sudden pewter]

Nah Goo Lock is going the way of the dodo regardless of how anyone feels about it. I'm curious to see if Embark adds that utility elsewhere however. I'm vehemently against things that stun, it isn't fun. But traps? Those could work.

[unkempt moss]

It shouldnt be able to stop people from using jump pads, so that will be taken.

[slow linden]

Give an inch and they take a mile

[unkempt moss]

Its so over.

[slow linden]

They seemed happy about the 0.2 stun,I will adapt to that

[slow linden]

Begrudgingly

[sudden pewter]

Maybe if they fix the LoS checks for Goo the 0.2 could work? But unless thats addressed you cant stall with goo anymore and that just....cannot happen.

Maybe it's all a ruse to make Lights run Nullifier more, idk

[unkempt moss]

Its not fun for both sides when you light someone on fire, pyro gren/mine, flame thrower, and cerbersu gone.

Its not fun to get shot in the head. All guns gone.

Getting blown up not fun. All explosives gone.

[manic field]

plus medium has more movemnt now so its harder to stun

[sharp wasp]

the melee finals

[sudden pewter]

Yeha, Medium passively has more movement. Embark covered them in oil.

[slow linden]

Goo stalling is more unbalanced than goo lock

[unkempt moss]

Dont tell them that!

Now theyre for sure taking that from us

[slow linden]

I will leak church secrets when it benefits me in an argument

[sudden pewter]

be fr rn

[unkempt moss]

You have to let these morons think goo lock is the best tech

[manic field]

i hope they make more types ofgoo

[sudden pewter]

Oh fuck wait its actually past midnight I gotta feed my kittens

Happy to have you back tho gookiemookie

[unkempt moss]

Im leaving again soon. May 28th.

[slow linden]

I'm being so deadass,stopping a steal with anything other than complete displacement or death is hella unbalanced

[manic field]

so ther could be a sticky and fire ore gas type goo

with disadvantages

[unkempt moss]

You cant let them know these things. They will take them.

[manic field]

so the sticky goo might have a longer cooldown or less ammo or both

[unkempt moss]

That one dude will come back after this patch and say it needs to go.

[slow linden]

No,I like goo lock more than goo stall,I will sacrifice better strategies for the sake of my niche

[manic field]

the fire goo can last less and damages less than pyro grenade and mine

[unkempt moss]

I want it to do everything.

[manic field]

?

[unkempt moss]

They'll come for the goodefuse too

Because its not fun to shut down mines and proxy with goo

[manic field]

yeah

[slow linden]

That's a buff for me

[sudden pewter]

Nah thats dynamic as hell.

[unkempt moss]

My primary weapon is googun. I need it to keep all of its tech

[slow linden]

Line my walls with hidden nukes

[sudden pewter]

Peak Finals is gooing some dudes grenade before it explodes

[manic field]

what

[unkempt moss]

Thats GooParry, not GooDefuse.

[slow linden]

Pay attention to what he said

[manic field]

anyone can see it

it is not that hard

[manic field]

wow i never knew it

[analog pewter]

I'm still pro goo. What they're doing to goo gun is part of why I might straight up be quitting. Haven't played in weeks

[slow linden]

More embark taking sand out of the sandbox because they didn't explicitly permit that sand to exist even though it's beloved by many and hated by few

But winchclaw still exists nerfed to dogshit but still asked to be removed because of how hostile to balance and the player experience it is,but nah its A okay for embark not to remove

[analog pewter]

I just want them to implement a decaying system rather than starting at ZERO POINT TWO FUCKING SECONDS

[slow linden]

Decaying system?

You mean diminishing returns?

[analog pewter]

Like the first to hit a player is 0.8s, then 0.6, Then 0.4, then 0.2

[slow linden]

That's called diminishing returns

[analog pewter]

Okay decaying is fewer letters and syllables

[slow linden]

It's categorically incorrect

Oh God what have I become

@chilly granite curse you,you did this to me

Seek the dive argument for context

[unkempt moss]

Unfortunately the dozens of googun players arent really a priority in the face of thousands of people wanting goolock removed.

[slow linden]

It's dozens that want goo lock Removed,the rest don't care,they could not be bothered

[unkempt moss]

I assumed it was all light and medium players.

[slow linden]

Medium players for certain,tourist lights that won't even be here next season for certain

[sudden pewter]

WE NEED SECONDARY WEAPONS BECAUSE I CANT MANAGE MY AMMO - actual argument made by CoD migrant

[slow linden]

Heavies have complained about it too,mainly winchclaw users that it happens to hard counter

[slow linden]

The only secondary weapon I could possibly ever humor is a Derringer that does 30 dmg a shot

[sudden pewter]

I absolutely abhor the concept of secondary weapons, but I cannot rationally draw a line in the sand when I use RPG as often as I do. When does a gadget become a secondary? Do we consider grenades secondaries? Obviously not, that’s stupid. Would the RPG fit the bill?

[unkempt moss]

RPG primary when?

[alpine sphinx]

This is also a bullshit excuse by embark. There are many techs that are in the game (window hopping, dash jump padding, Cashout teleportation etc) that were clearly never intended, and yet they have existed since the start of the game, and many of them are far more prevalent than goo locking, but embark doesn't care because they aren't niche

[slow linden]

If only

[indigo nexus]

RPG has so much downtime that I don’t think it’s fair to say they’re that similar, but they do fill a similar role in the right circumstance

[unkempt moss]

For some reason I knew Sausage-san was going to show up. I felt his arrival before he started typing

[sudden pewter]

I agree with this sentiment. 45s is a very lengthy reload for a secondary

[slow linden]

Kill every niche that they did not consent to that's what they want

They'll come for bhopping and sliding with minigun next

[manic field]

true

[unkempt moss]

I hope so.

[slow linden]

I hope not,but it'd be really funny,catter thinks he's immune

He thinks they won't come for what he adores

[unkempt moss]

He will be a CM soon. He'll stop them.

[manic field]

they should nerf the miniguns range tho

[unkempt moss]

Absolutely. Its insane

[slow linden]

Community managers have little to no power on the actual game

[manic field]

you can melt light from far away

[unkempt moss]

Mini is busted af against light

Get on it embark.

[manic field]

yeah

[slow linden]

Only light to be fair,and light can do the same to heavy from afar because heavys hitbox is the size of saturn

[manic field]

yeah but heavy has defense

light doesnt really have any

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856603795738722307/1425920121473470554/togif.gif

[manic field]

?

[slow linden]

You thought you were immune,you planted this seed

[chilly granite]

Man I go sleep for 8 hours and look what happens to my discord

Goo gun is like, the least broken heavy spec

Nobody should even care if it's op or not when mesh and winch exist

[indigo nexus]

Goo gun is OP, because heavies can use it to gain an advantage! You literally can’t stop them from getting value from their spec!

[slow linden]

God forbid heavy do anything without a heal beam up their ass

[chilly granite]

Yeah, goo gun requires the most braincells to use out if heavies spec and relative to the brainpower effort, the reward is relatively small compared to mesh and winch

[slow linden]

The only unfair match-up is winchclaw against goo gun since goo gun hard counters winch,and that's a good thing,winchclaw deserves to fade into obscurity and be removed

[chilly granite]

Feel like it's soft counter at best tbh

Feel like part of winch problem is no real hard counte r

Even when dome block winch you want use dome for other use

Btw what did u ping me about dd?

[slow linden]

In a 1v1 against winchclaw I'm beating it 9/10 times

[chilly granite]

But compare that Vs glitch grenade or reshaper Vs dome shield, that's 100%

And in a non-1v1, glitch doesn't lose Valye against mesh/dome, it stays at 100% winrate

[slow linden]

I guess,those have downtime though,goo gun doesn't

[chilly granite]

Yeah, but you see what I mean about winch not having true hard counter

[slow linden]

I see it

[chilly granite]

Every single counter to winch, has a worse hitbox than winch and therefore demands more skill than winch

[slow linden]

But the fights I have with it are very one sided in favor of me

[chilly granite]

Tbh, people who commit to the goo tend to have onesided fights because they're better at using their kit than the others

A player with equivalent skill at winch, to your goo, would probably dunk you tbh

[slow linden]

Can't,I would goo lock them out of their combo,like in the clip

[chilly granite]

But winch has the advantage/disadvantage of having a skill floor in the basement and very few winchnplayerd feel the need to go above that

[slow linden]

And then they have no winch for the next century

[chilly granite]

Does googun not get nohits when you get Winched like nulli?

[slow linden]

Watch the clip I just sent

[chilly granite]

I'm on my phone I can't see shit

I did watch it

[slow linden]

I'm on my phone I can

[chilly granite]

My phone is smol

[slow linden]

And you saw me goo lock him the moment he winched me

[chilly granite]

Oh yeah I see it now

Wtf, why does nullifier just get eaten? Holy shit embark, go to hell

[slow linden]

See? Literally unplayable for winch

[chilly granite]

I shoot my nulls before the winch connects and they get eaten

[slow linden]

They just lose

[slow linden]

I think that's a bug imo

No way in hell that's intentional

[chilly granite]

@fervent berry idk who the spaghetti code guy is but my nulli shots always get blocked by winch and goo gun doesn't, plz fix one

[chilly granite]

Ye I've complained to embark a bunch lol

I've sent them multiple recordings

[slow linden]

Don't rope me into this,the claw physically blocks nullifier,if goo hits the claw at all it probably just gives goo something to sprout off of

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

The claw physically blocking the only light gadget that can counter it is what I suspect too, but would be unbelievably criminal

[slow linden]

I'm just surprised the claw is an actual physics object that other stuff can even hit

[chilly granite]

I'm not sure it is, it might just be the lag compensation giving priority to winch claw user

[slow linden]

Pretty sure I hit that guy's claw in that clip too but got pulled anyway

[chilly granite]

I suspect it might be that nullifier is deprioritized on lag compensation, because I've died after nulling people before

[slow linden]

I'm guessing that's the nature of hit scans ending the moment they hit something

[chilly granite]

It might not be lag compensated at all

[slow linden]

Projectiles usually turn into something else when they hit something

Nullifier is a hit scan that applies an effect

[chilly granite]

Yeah, so it might be that the hitscan is lag compensated, but the effect isn't, and then if the game detects an illegal state when it tries to apply the null effect (Winched>trying to null the winch user) it just drops the null

That seems unlikely to me? But possible

[slow linden]

It's the only theory that anyone's come up with that actually makes sense

No one else cares about nullifier like that

[chilly granite]

Ahahha

[slow linden]

It's not stungun so they've written it off

[chilly granite]

I didn't like stungun because it felt cheap but nulli feels like outskill

Can you dodge my preaimed arrow or nah? Let's fucking 1v1

Honourable no dash 1v1

[slow linden]

Nullifier is fine,it's like defib,poor use can spell the doom of its user

[chilly granite]

I mean, even poor defib use is generally less punishing than poor null usage, poor null usage can genuinly ruin a fight lol

[slow linden]

I'd be playing db and don't wanna play rn but it could be fun

[chilly granite]

I don't mean you, I mean my null victim

[slow linden]

Ah

Fair enough

[chilly granite]

Haha, it's just my null mindset, like, it drives a honourable duel of aim Vs dodge

But yeah, stun gun isn't honourable 1v1 in the same way

So I never liked it

[manic field]

the new stun gun is kinda niche

[slow linden]

I wouldn't consider my build very honorable,but it's certainly more honorable than whatever is meta

[chilly granite]

Not really, it's basically the least niche of lights non-meta gadgets, but it is underpowered

Fundamentally it's a slot replacement for glitch grenade and it doesn't work against shields so it's weak @fervent berry

[manic field]

yeah

but u nee to be accurate

[chilly granite]

If it penetrated the shield it would be perfectly good alternative for glitch grenade

[slow linden]

I don't care that it can't do much to shields,but it getting clipped by winch and deciding not to work is kinda ridiculous

[manic field]

and its velocity is slow

[chilly granite]

It's hitscan

[manic field]

no

[chilly granite]

What velocity?

[chilly granite]

Not penetrating sheilds is an issue because it makes it hard countered by mesh shield

If the enemy team has mesh and you have null instead of glitch, you just lose the fight for free

[manic field]

after a range it wont become hitscane

[chilly granite]

No, it just stops working beyond 16m

[manic field]

yeah

[chilly granite]

It's a range cap but it's always hitscan - I think the range is 16m, but I can't remember

[manic field]

unless your right in front of them

[chilly granite]

16m is not right in front of them

[manic field]

your killed

[slow linden]

Ehhh,you can exhaust mesh without glitch,I've done it on medium,haven't tried on light imo

[chilly granite]

I do think it could be slightly improved range, especially considering it's not much more than winch claw

[chilly granite]

I mean you can, but that does mean you're outplaying the enemy, not beating an enemy of equal skill

[manic field]

anyway barely anyone is using it

so its not a problem

[slow linden]

Tbh winchclaw shouldn't even be in the game,it ruined heavys weapon balancing its dead weight at best and a parasite at worst and I'm leaning towards it being a parasite

[manic field]

and sometimes it can grab you through walls

[slow linden]

Can't grab through walls,can pull through walls though

[manic field]

yeah

[slow linden]

Once it hits you nothing in your immediate path can stop it

[manic field]

but most of the time ,atleast forme it messes my aim

[slow linden]

I could see that

[chilly granite]

It can, the line of sight checks is buggy

I did testing in practice range and could consistently grab a light from the left side of a barricade with no line of sight

[slow linden]

Fair enough

[chilly granite]

Only the left side

The hitbox is like a meter wide, so it can hit behind walls, and there's a line of sight checks to try to prevent pulling people who shouldn't be hittable, but that line of sight check is not consistent for a reason I do not have the tools to identify

[slow linden]

You mean around corners

[chilly granite]

I should've asked why the winch hitbox was the size of mars during the ama, but the answer is probably the same as what they said for the crossbow- don't want controller players to suffer hard projectile aim

[slow linden]

You can't just pluck someone for hugging the whole ass wall,right?

[chilly granite]

It was a light entirely behind the barricade that I could not visibly see a single pixel of on my screen

[slow linden]

And yet goo guns actual projectiles are like the size of baseballs

[manic field]

true

[slow linden]

This goo gun nerf will backfire in some way,they have no idea how strong last attempt made gooflame

[candid vessel]

So excited for the entire game to break tomorrow

[candid vessel]

As a controller player projectile aim aint that hard. Hitting people with the ks23 from deep is not difficult

[vocal stone]

And yet bow exists, imagine if bow was a hitscan lmao

Fuck it, let's make all weapons hitscan

Hitscan, no damage drop off with distance and no reload (for people without index finger, so they won't suffer pressing "R")

Im kind of reaching here, but it's just such a perfunctory answer on their side

[calm yarrow]

Welp, update is tomorrow. Lets hope that Embark won't ruin the goo gun.

[candid vessel]

Thats the only thing im certain will happen

Other stuff will happen too but goo gun getting executed is the only accurate prediction i think i can make

[calm yarrow]

I'm too, tbh. But hope dies last.

[candid vessel]

Because everything else i can think of would make the games balance better and we dont do that here

[candid vessel]

Fair enough

[bitter surge]

Why matter gun is so rare while being very decent ?

[chilly granite]

KS23 is hitscan out to 25m though, which is pretty wild to me

[chilly granite]

Why use decent when you can use amazing?

[candid vessel]

Yh ik but you can still hit shots from crazy far away

[calm yarrow]

Because goo gun have very high skill ceiling. You need to learn it very long for descent gameplay.
The ones, who you probably see, are learn it for hundreds of hours.

[chilly granite]

He was asking about M26 matter

[calm yarrow]

My bad

[chilly granite]

It's pretty common for people to get this channel confused with game feedback

[last steeple]

Because m11 does better and is easier

[candid vessel]

The day the m11 gets nerfed is the day the finals is great again

[alpine sphinx]

Preach brother

[indigo nexus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_hell hah, that’s funny, there’s a wikipedia page for the gripes that gamers have with elo systems

[alpine sphinx]

damn who knew that casual dating is actually ranked competitive dating

[bitter surge]

All we can do is just pray

[stoic garden]

m11 players can spray

[unkempt moss]

The day the defib is removed is the day it's great again.

[manic field]

bro are you crazy

[compact tundra]

@indigo nexus
@muted condor

Ok I need feedback from spear users cause I just had a reload button utility idea for spear.
What if spears reload button was a stab that deals 5 damage but does varying knockback depending on how low the enemies health is. So a full health enemy will receive no knockback, a %10 health enemy would be sent back 10m. I think 1m of knockback for every %10 of health would be fair. The 5 damage would replace the need for winch with the light combo and the knockback removes the need for winch to do the throws. Making spear overall less reliant on winch for both breakpoints and it's positioning based playstyle and making Winch spear even more of a scary positioning based weapon that can use the map to their advantage. I get knockback is usually counter intuitive to melee weapons but spear is a weird edge case where the throws have become a staple of its playstyle and I think incorporating a alternative to that into the weapon itself would both make it less reliant on winch and better at its job

[muted condor]

Spit yo shit

[muted condor]

Why are you try to give enemies with less health more distance on you? Ngl you burnt the water while cooking this

[indigo nexus]

A stab that deals five damage... how's that visually distinct from a regular stab? Perhaps the spear flicks around and you whack them with the back end? That could work I guess.

But the more important question is how this differs in impact from a quick melee. How quick to use are you thinking it should be, and its range?

Currently your TTK vaires significantly depending on whether you're close enough for a stab or you're close enough for a quick melee, if this is an in-between it would work but it might be hard to gauge as the timing for it to be a good option would be tight

It acting like an animation interruptor rather than a knockback tool would be more interesting, I think, though maybe quite jank

[compact tundra]

Ok that is very fair, we could inverse it since obv off the map kills and combos would be much more needed on high health enemies but that was meant to give you a better chance at comboing lights with the 5 damage if your running something other than winch. And for the knockback obviously don't use this on like the streets of bernal or some shit. You'd bounce people into walls for combos or send them into bad positions like maybe mines or your team

[compact tundra]

I honestly would like this where it can interrupt animations for quick clean combos

[somber tiger]

Personally, I think we should give the flamethrower some kind of knockback alt fire. Maybe something that can reflect projectiles too, like some sort of airblast.

[indigo nexus]

mmm, a dangerous game there

[compact tundra]

Yea honestly just waking them with the back end of the spear sounds like a good visual distinguisher for this attack

[compact tundra]

Na I've never liked the air blast idea for this game. If I gave flame an alt fire I'd lean towards something like the thermal launcher for scorch in Titanfall2

[somber tiger]

Yeah, I was being sarcastic, but I do think flamethrower and MGL should get an alt fire.

[compact tundra]

Definitely

[somber tiger]

Give the MGL an underbarrel grenade launcher.

[lime topaz]

Did they nerf the m60 a bit

[indigo nexus]

I don't see why either of them need an alt fire

[indigo nexus]

The last four patches that changed it were all buffs.

[somber tiger]

Because flamethrower is boring.

[lime topaz]

Ok skill issue on my part, haven’t been updated in the notes in like months

[compact tundra]

They're not really viable and kinda have simple gimmicks with little you can do to post their effectiveness. Flame is basically just a melee weapon with good range, slow time to kills, and no alt fire. And mgl is just unable to be used in a lot of situations you'll find yourself in

[somber tiger]

And MGL has a fun primary fire, but it's not very viable, and they can't just keep buffing the primary fire.

[compact tundra]

I actually find flame really fun you just gotta focus on your spec and gadgets and let the gun aim for you

[indigo nexus]

Flamethrower is more flexible than a melee weapon is, I don't see this as a problem that demands despecialising it. Every melee weapon has an alternate ability but none of them are range extenders

[lime topaz]

They increased light health? Why tho

[somber tiger]

It's fun with goo lock, which is going away tomorrow.

[compact tundra]

Swords alt is a range extender of sorts

[indigo nexus]

If MGL is to be improved at close range I definitely think we should tweak its primary fire, not give it something else. It could just have less self damage and explode on direct contact if needs be

[lime topaz]

I heard the mgl is meta now

[compact tundra]

Na the community will riot again and it'll probably be brought back, they could realistically nerf goo stun to .6s and that'd be fine honestly

[indigo nexus]

It's really not

[lime topaz]

Waiting for the mgl to have explode on impact

[indigo nexus]

Guess so. Flamethrower seems flexible enough though, I'm not sure what an alt fire that adds something interesting would look like

[somber tiger]

The problem is that very few people use goo gun, which they probably knew when making the nerf.

[compact tundra]

Then it's just cl-40 for the heavy

[lime topaz]

Rather have that

[compact tundra]

But everyone loves goo gun, something they forgot about the last time they changed it

[somber tiger]

Actual MGL players wouldn't.

[indigo nexus]

MGL will be CL-40 for the heavy no matter what we do if we're going to address its close range weakness

[lime topaz]

Imo I don’t see any good use for the mgl besides angling

[random depot]

Remove winch

[lime topaz]

Go is really good for countering light melees

[compact tundra]

If it doesn't stay unique I see no point in changing it. Weapons shouldn't be changed to make it easier for everyone else to use, they should be changed to be better at how the mains use it within reason

[indigo nexus]

it does have good AOE and functions fine as a burst damage weapon if you play with it very well

[compact tundra]

I'm a sword main, I'm aware, dirty fat bastards telling me to sit down

[lime topaz]

It’s about to happen again

[lime topaz]

I stg the only people complaining about which are light mains

[somber tiger]

The main sword counter is another light.

[lime topaz]

Winch + SHAK 50 be goated tho

[indigo nexus]

spear heavy!!

(I know, a sword user who plays very well should win that matchup, but it basically never happens in my experience)

[lime topaz]

Or bfr if people still use them

[somber tiger]

BFR is still better than ks23 in my opinion.

[lime topaz]

I want to learn the bfr but I just switched from console to pc

[compact tundra]

No winch has some genuine issues that throw off game balance and winch is the reason sledge was nerfed and could very well be a reason weapons like flamethrower and spear have been left in poor states. I think reworking winch to have a wind up and move it from entirely reactive to mostly proactive is a good change for the game itself

[somber tiger]

Burst damage weapons on heavy kind of suck though since you can't brawl unless the enemy has bad aim.

[compact tundra]

Spear is a hard sword matchup, even really good swords have to tread carefully around the oversized beyblade

[lime topaz]

Well screw sledge

[compact tundra]

Heavies the best brawler in the game but your spec and gadgets are what gives you the ability to brawl

[somber tiger]

And also guns with decent dps.

c&s makes them better, but c&s + ks23 seems a bit redundant to me.

[compact tundra]

Every build has good damage dealing weapons but heavy has the HP and items like mesh, winch, goo gun, C&S, dome, lockbolt, grav cube, ect... That lets them brawl exceptionally well

[lime topaz]

I wish the ks23 was viable

[somber tiger]

My main problem with ks23 was that it just looses against other heavies.

[lime topaz]

But the bfr does its job way better

[somber tiger]

And also hipfire sucks for some reason.

[lime topaz]

Slow dps while most heavies are running either the m60 or SA

[compact tundra]

I keep saying bro buff that shit to 110 and give it no hipfire penalty, it'll be goated bro. Make it projectile again to balance it out

[lime topaz]

Ks has spread now?

[indigo nexus]

It never didn't

[compact tundra]

It always has had bloom, not spread tho

[lime topaz]

[somber tiger]

All I want is the ks23 to have the hipfire accuracy of every other shotgun and projectile weapon in the game.

[indigo nexus]

define the difference?

KS-23 had its dispersion buffed a couple of times iirc, never nerfed

[last steeple]

If you manage to constantly hit headshots ye, and if you don't need wall breaking

[compact tundra]

Spread is the spread of pellets from a shotgun, bloom is how much your shot can vary in single shot weapons, think D-eagles or throwing knives

[indigo nexus]

It's better than shotguns unless you're jumping

[somber tiger]

Shotguns have perfect hipfire accuracy.

[indigo nexus]

Since it's not a pellet shotgun that seems an odd distinction to make, ok

[compact tundra]

Shhhhh

[indigo nexus]

Then your comment about projectile weapons is confusing since they largely do not

[somber tiger]

Besides sniper, all of them do.

[compact tundra]

Yes but I am firmly in the camp that the KS should be treated like a shotgun not a rifle or bow variant. Make the ks-23 more like a shotgun and give it a focus on close to mid range brawls

[somber tiger]

It's all they need to do to solve the ks23 vs BFR problem.

[compact tundra]

Agreed

[indigo nexus]

Ah, I thought you just meant guns.

Throwing knives left click also has some inaccuracy, though, which would make it 3v3 I think

[somber tiger]

It's crazy that the close range brawler class still only has one real shotgun.

[indigo nexus]

Still, KS having perfect accuracy would make it operate well at long ranges which they specifically didn't want, so that's out of the question

[somber tiger]

It has inaccuracy in the air.

[compact tundra]

The idea is to make it a full projectile again and maybe nerf its falloff so it's less usable at long ranged

[somber tiger]

It would make it better at close range, which it should be, being a shotgun.

[indigo nexus]

it would do both, so out of the question

but if it was slow enough as a projectile it may be ok

[compact tundra]

Sir you are forgoing the idea that we can rebalance it with falloff to make sure it's long range is adequately lack luster

[indigo nexus]

that was what I addressed with the next message (kinda)

I'm not sure why the developers are averse to extreme falloff, to be honest, so that idea specifically didn't cross my mind

[compact tundra]

https://tenor.com/view/mogging-mewing-cat-zazu-gif-13280918095920108064

[somber tiger]

ks23 is only good at range if the opponent is sitting still or running in a straight line.

[indigo nexus]

The lowest falloff multiplier in the game is 0.4 which is weirdly high

[somber tiger]

But i'm fine with it having steeper falloff if it means better close range accuracy.

[compact tundra]

Yea embark is kinda bad at using all the tools in their belt to rebalance weapons and tend to only focus on damage or reloads for rebalancing which I find both odd and ineffective

[somber tiger]

If they just had a hard cap on maximum range, the sniper could be hitscan.

[indigo nexus]

I don't like that idea, it would be much less intuitive

[candid vessel]

MFs on Reddit really think the revolver and repeater are better than the akm. What are we doing

[candid vessel]

And its an outlier too

[compact tundra]

They are? Revolver is one of the best weapons in the game if you can hit heads consistently and repeater has been meta dominate for multiple seasons

[somber tiger]

Repeater was also nerfed, and revolver is a close range weapon.

[muted condor]

Revolver is better

[indigo nexus]

Revolver isn't much differently range-specialised to the AKM, though

[compact tundra]

It wasn't nerfed enough to really make it worse than akm, like akm is a good weapon but repeater still just tends to be better when used effectively.

[vocal stone]

What if there was a "Contestants RAM" system in the Finals. Like, contestant has a 100% of his RAM available, abd every spec, weapon and gadget consumes a certain amount of RAM based on it's potency.

It gets kind of tricky here because people agree and disagree on a lot of positions, everyone seems to have fairly different tierlists and such, but for example (a really rough example) lets take heavy, and winch claw will consume 40% of your RAM, while goo gun will be something like 25%, and then shack will be like 20% and spear will be 5%, and so on.

My primary idea is that this change could potentially eliminate "meta" as we know it now. The only aspect that I'm afraid of is the fact that this could take the "sand" from the Finals' "sandbox", because all in all, it's a restriction, because you won't be able to come up with any possible setup like you can now, and i honestly don't trust Embark's balancing team with those percentages.

Really want to hear your thoughts on this one.

[somber tiger]

Revolver is also the 0.4 max range multiplier weapon.

[indigo nexus]

yeah, but at quite a long distance. Revolver has a worse TTK at extreme ranges but the lack of recoil + poke probably makes it outcompete the AKM there

[compact tundra]

So that's a fun idea and could be fun in a game mode built around limiting loadouts but in the base game it'd be too fundamental of a change and would make a lot of loadouts just not be playable in the game

[somber tiger]

I don't think any medium weapons are a problem until they buff some specs

[compact tundra]

F-car

Well actually has Fcar been nerfed recently?

[somber tiger]

It was buffed recently.

[compact tundra]

I knew that I just didn't know if they had nerfed it yet

[candid vessel]

Repeater is not meta anymore and revolver is ass at range and isn’t reliable enough at killing lights before they evaporate you with an m11

[candid vessel]

Repeater cannot kill heavies anymore

[candid vessel]

Yh exactly

[candid vessel]

It got buffed recently and is the best weapon on medium rn

[vocal stone]

Btw yeah, it could be an interesting LTM to see how it would really affect the game as we know it now

[compact tundra]

Repeater is still a solid high A tier, it's still a solid weapon and heal is still good so poke is still good. And as for revolver you can absolutely demolish a light before they spray you down with m11

[indigo nexus]

I think this is worse than regular balancing - it solves nothing that couldn't be solved already. Having your loadout vary in size would be awkward and this would actually exaggerate the skill gap differences, because "bad" picks are likely fine against bad players and you'd be able to kinda spam them.

[candid vessel]

You can do that with a revolver but doing it every time is basically impossible because you need to hit 3 shots on a dashing target

Repeater is like low A tier but AKM is low S tier

[compact tundra]

Na you can just hit a headshot and a QM or a cough on the light and they die, or just headshot bodyshot them

[somber tiger]

wish they'd bring back 20 round fcar and 36 round akm

[indigo nexus]

20 round fcar was cool.

[candid vessel]

Headshot and a pyro nade usually works nicely but its twice the risk for not much more reward than the AKM

[compact tundra]

The poke nature and high damage is the reward. You can deal 149 damage and then just dip behind a wall. Akm requires constant fire to whittle the opponent down while revolver can play however they want cause they just need 2 bullets to put down a light

[somber tiger]

Best thing about the repeater is that its ammo count is trivial.

[candid vessel]

Yeah but everyone knows this and just bum rushes you so you cant exploit poke that much, and the range isn’t good enough to use it in a situation where a light cant easily close the gap

[somber tiger]

This is only really a problem when you're on your own.

[candid vessel]

Which is basically all the time when playing solo Q outside ranked, and even a lot of the time while in ranked

Also an AKM can kill a light faster than a revolver (if no headshots are involved) even if you miss 4 shots

And headshots only revolver is only slightly faster

[compact tundra]

I mean that's a strength in and of its self tho. If your whole team is poke then this is bad but if it's like a revolver, a SA-12, and a Lewis gun then that light is bum rushing into their demise

[somber tiger]

Thats pretty much the case for all full auto weapons, they have much higher dps.

[candid vessel]

That makes sense for smgs n stuff but the range on the akm and fcar are more than decent

[abstract hornet]

how does the chimera stack againts the medium weapons?

[candid vessel]

And the damage per mag on the akm is insane

Which means ur never caught with ur pants down

[candid vessel]

Its like S tier

[abstract hornet]

biased or nah, #1 full auto hater?

[tardy light]

biased

[somber tiger]

You're meant to use cover or movement between shots, if they had comparable dps, burst damage weapons would be much better.

[indigo nexus]

Chimera seems very good but since the other autos got buffed, not overpoweringly so

[candid vessel]

I mean from me its arguably biased in the other direction because i think all the full autos are too good, and i still think the crossbow beats almost everything

[candid vessel]

Yh ik and i do that but against someone who realises that they have the raw dps to kill you they just rush you and its over

[indigo nexus]

chimera vs fcar comparison

[grave token]

trying to state the chimera is a good weapon is wild

[candid vessel]

Its basically an LH1 on a class with 67% more health

How tf is it not good at the very least

[grave token]

no its useless, honestly who asked embark to put that into the game

[indigo nexus]

(what is it with the LH1 comparisons, they're alike only in damage per shot profile)

[tardy light]

it doesnt have the insane lh1 range, but it is still quite good

[tardy light]

brain sees damage number, brain sees ammo count, pattern recognition triggered

[candid vessel]

RPM is almost the same and the mag size is 1:1

Like the only difference is range and headsholt mult

[grave token]

its not good

[indigo nexus]

LH1's defining traits are its long range, headshot specialisation and poor hipfire, none of which are shared with the chimera

[grave token]

you're delusional

[indigo nexus]

Its mag size is pretty normal

[candid vessel]

Yh ik but the crossbow has exactly the same size mag

[grave token]

complaining about the fcar is also wild af

[candid vessel]

Almost like its the best medium weapon and weve been there before and it sucked ass

Early S2 was actually fcar hell

[grave token]

nah the finals peaked when it was the best gun in the game

[indigo nexus]

Slightly more damage per mag

it just seems weird to consider this a defining feature of the weapon as it's almost irrelevant, it'd be an almost identical gun if you doubled the mag size / firerate and halved the damage per shot

[candid vessel]

You sound like the average 4 iq cod player rn

[somber tiger]

They really just attached a cord to a dmr and called it a crossbow..

[candid vessel]

Yh fr

[grave token]

you sound like apex player who couldnt understand the dynamics of titanfall or quake

[candid vessel]

Ive never played apex

[indigo nexus]

do you have any meaningful contribution to make or are you just here to ragebait people

[abstract hornet]

what yall think of the medium shotgun

[somber tiger]

Not great, but fun.

[indigo nexus]

They both seem okay. I don't really have any issues with them, though I don't enjoy cerb that much due to its range specialisation

[candid vessel]

This exactly

[candid vessel]

Cerb with demat goes so hard

[grave token]

chimera is the crossbow? i thought it was the fire shotgun thats right

[tardy light]

xd

[indigo nexus]

That's the cerberus

[grave token]

the crossbow is broken

[candid vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/kermit-kermit-the-frog-tea-tea-day-sipping-tea-gif-1069715392336747340

[grave token]

you dont need to aim as much

[candid vessel]

Well done sherlock

[tardy light]

https://tenor.com/view/jesus-ballin-mars-bars-gif-19910027

[candid vessel]

Idk why my gif embeds never work on this server but they do on the rest of discord its so sad

[tardy light]

its your role

[grave token]

the crossbow is the least of the worries on this game

its cooked

not as bad as maraflop but similair

[candid vessel]

Ohhh ok

[grave token]

the average light player

[candid vessel]

Im sorry i find lobbies with 12 of the same gun for hours on end to be extremely boring

[grave token]

you wouldnt last on halo 3

[candid vessel]

I played halo 3 multiplayer once and it was so ass. Im sure that theres more to it than what i experienced but what i played was horrendous

[grave token]

then you are the cod player

when you start to realize that having multiple guns do the same purpose and do the same dmg, its pointless to complain about seeing the same gun, you know there used to be a time, its not about the gun itself but rather the operator uses it, not all pros used the br the same

you know how we fix the autos in this game, get rid of the headshot multipler for them

[rare echo]

When a gravity cube gets glitched will it reactive the anti gravity once the effect wears off?

[noble saddle]

Sword rework idea:

A) a mechanic where either perfectly timed swings would have an audio/visual queue and do higher damage, and/or if there was a "sweet spot" on the weapon where if I'm hitting someone with the tip I do more damage than if I'm hitting with the hilt.

B) Another thing you could do with it is maybe give it combos and more animations, ie cancelling the lunge with a swing does a different animation, or swinging from crouch/slide/air does different animations and different damage. Leading to several different optimized kill combos for different classes based on how you entered.

[grave token]

make the user play into third person camera

[candid vessel]

Never played one

[noble saddle]

That would be busted as hell lol

[grave token]

*FUN

[noble saddle]

I think that more abilities that bring the game into third person are fun like mesh shield does but the whole game shouldn't be third person if you're running a sword lol

[tardy light]

fr my favorite thing about mesh shield is seeing the drip 🔥

[noble saddle]

I wouldn't be against riot shield pulling the game into third person when using the block

That would also give incentive to use the shield like a mini mesh shield

Also pls embark add a shield bash by doing block + m1 on riot shield 🥺

[grave token]

the sword should be more of a slashing weapon with combos instead of this wierd lunge thing thats going

[noble saddle]

Biggest problem I think with riot shield is too many mediums use it selfishly when it's greatest strength is it turns you into essentially a pseudo tank, needs to incentivize team play better and third person camera could do it

[grave token]

its all fun and games until someone shoots the feet

[tardy light]

biggest problem with riot shield is it doesnt work half the time

[noble saddle]

There's ways to do that first person though

[grave token]

why does it need to be in first person

why not all melee weapons in third person

[tardy light]

inspect animations...

[noble saddle]

Third person all the time would make your ability to peek corners and ambush way too strong

Idk I don't mind first person melee at all, the problem with sword is there's not much depth to it. A sword should feel technical and this sword rn just feels like a baseball bat

Also this game can't do third person always because character models look like shit on most people's hardware lmao

Character models are pretty low poly in the actual game unless you're running something decently high end

[grave token]

im still running my evga 2070 super

chilvary and for honor are the only games that get melee right anyways

[tardy light]

Mordhau is the best melee game

although, theres not many useful comparisons you can make between pure melee games and a game like the finals where you bring melee to a map full of guns

[noble saddle]

Overwatch would be the game I'd model melee in the finals after, personally

[grave token]

the problem is you want to incentivize the melee weapons not punish the users

[muted condor]

Before I insult you I’ll give you a chance to explain yourself.

[noble saddle]

I think that sledge and riot shield are both in very good spots

[grave token]

sledge should always one tap

[noble saddle]

Naaahhhh

[thorn goblet]

The problem with third person is the ability to peak corners without exposing yourself

Mesh shield prevents this by having the large ass holographic thing which gives you away even behind the corner

[grave token]

then forget it

[muted condor]

Every time I come to this chat it’s some next level bullshit

[noble saddle]

The game already takes a bunch from overwatch but the melee feels way worse than how melee characters feel there

Marvel rivals does melee but it's third person and also very cooldowns focused melee, overwatch makes melee simple

[grave token]

embark taking away sledge one tap was dumb af

[thorn goblet]

Those games are in a different genre of game though

[muted condor]

I don’t think there’s really any comparison between the two

[noble saddle]

It's the same pick up and play philosophy of weapon design though

[thorn goblet]

I don’t think so? Its somewhat comparable, but not exactly

[noble saddle]

So many of the specialities and gadgets in this game are ripped right from there

[grave token]

overwatch and marvel rivals are objectively terrible shooters but elaborate more

[thorn goblet]

Bruh what

[noble saddle]

I think overwatch is in a fine spot right now if you haven't played it recently

It's not my favorite game on the planet but they've come a long way

[muted condor]

Guh

[grave token]

its a cookie cutter design

[muted condor]

Buzzwords

[grave token]

there is no sense of originality or risk in design

personaly i want railguns, a lightning gun or quake rockets in the game

[noble saddle]

Evasive dash - Tracer
Gateway, Cloak - Sombra
Defibs - Mercy
Mesh Shield - Reinhardt
Dome Shield - Winston
Winch Claw - Roadhog

These are abilities that were really from overwatch originally

[tardy light]

its not like overwatch invented them, theyre gaming tropes

[noble saddle]

Y'all forget how old of a game overwatch is, it's like the first hero shooter other than TF2 it's where a lot of this stuff was used in FPS for the first time

[grave token]

overwatch gets popular because they steal what is big at the time and put it into thier game

[unkempt moss]

People are under the mindset that it needs to be fun for both sides for it to be okay.

[grave token]

you're forgetting about starwars battlefront

[noble saddle]

I think that sword scares away enough new players that it seriously needs some huge QOL changes.

High level players can yell at clouds about things like winch and repeater but the fact is lower level doesn't feel how strong these gadgets are.

Sword, to make another overwatch comparison is like Moira or Symmetra. Low skill floor weapons that are used against low skill players by other low skill players as a crutch for their inability to aim.

If you ask an average finals gamer if the Shak or Sword is more busted, they'll say sword every time

[compact tundra]

Do you have any suggestions on what could fix this?

[noble saddle]

Embark should genuinely look at the stats lol, how many players never touch the game again after losing to a sword player

[noble saddle]

I wrote a whole essay a few posts up

[unkempt moss]

I'd imagine thats true. Mostly because the sword is more irritating to fight against while shak just feels like you lost to any gun

[grave token]

its that one shot capability that the sword used to have

[noble saddle]

Yeah sword is basically objectively not a broken or cheap weapon, but it feels broken or cheap and that matters more for new player onboarding

[grave token]

sledge was far more balanced because you had to charge it up and be right next to guy where the sword lunge be halo 2 levels

[noble saddle]

When people die they want to feel like it took some skill to kill them

[sudden pewter]

My greatest joy is seeing a “player you reported was banned” message in my inbox after playing against a super sus player

If I could roll that up and smoke it I would

[unkempt moss]

Right. Its really the only melee weapon besides maybe riot that feels that way to me.

[noble saddle]

My joy is getting a player on my team who was a burden banned for their racist username lol

If your username is some sort of slur u better pop off

[noble saddle]

I think riot shield feels fine now, it used to be in the same category because of the visual bug

But medium inherently doesn't feel as obnoxious as light with sword because it's mobility is worse

[grave token]

my greatest joy is teamkilling my teammates and trapping them with goo, just for them to get on the mic and try to spit fire while being trapped in gas

[muted condor]

All those things are literally in the game

[unkempt moss]

Dagger can probably feel that way for the average players as well if theyre cornballing with dash back stab.

[grave token]

the rpg is not a quake rocket launcer

[muted condor]

Are you talking about OW or The Finals?

[unkempt moss]

Are there any arena shooters that have a decent player base?

[grave token]

the finals

[muted condor]

I was talking about OW for that

[compact tundra]

I solely think sword feeling cheap is because it's focused around closing the distance with lung and swinging the enemy to death. If sword had it's combos reinstated and was less viable as a dash and smack weapon it'd feel a bit better to fight especially at lower levels since they tend to ignore the lunge and just dash and smack.

[grave token]

ow does but its tied to a char

[muted condor]

Maybe if split gate rereleases for the 4th time they will have a player base XD

[grave token]

funny how kids want to claim they are the hardcore gamers but are scared to touch arena shooters

[muted condor]

It’s almost like it’s a boring game concept now

[grave token]

its way how its done not the concept itself

[unkempt moss]

It kinda falls under fighting game territory I think. Old style of game that doesnt connect well with people in the new age.

[grave token]

i dont understand why they always try to clone copy quake 3

[compact tundra]

I was a huge fan of apex arenas and that was really good before it was keelhauled

[muted condor]

It’s never done good anymore. It’s ether nostalgia bait that dies in a year or dog shit

[unkempt moss]

A lot of the arena shooters arent kind to new players

[indigo nexus]

Given that they're the only ones with stats, it always strikes me as odd when people say that they should look at the stats

[unkempt moss]

Which makes retention hard because the old guard picks them up instantly and is just evicerating any new blood. Arena shooters are worse than fighters in this regard tbh. Fighters are adapting with things like modern controls and platform fighters.

[muted condor]

I haven’t been into Apex since season 7 or so

[grave token]

i think battle royals also did a tremondus damage to them as well

[compact tundra]

I don't remember what season it was that I quit but it was when they removed arenas

[unkempt moss]

Last arena I took seriously was diabotical and its rogue spin off.

[muted condor]

The gatekeeping on fighting games is also crazy from what iv seen

[unkempt moss]

Depends on the game but it has gotten better. It used to be much worse.

[grave token]

honestly its a good thing

[muted condor]

None of this guy’s opinions are valid anymore

[unkempt moss]

Unfortunately I agree with this. I think a certain amount of gatekeeping is necessary for something to keep its culture/identity.

SF6 has probably done it best with modern, battle hub, and big story mode.

[compact tundra]

Can we really blame him for we too gatekeep out the cesspool that is #👂┇game-feedback and #⚡┇the-finals-chat

[muted condor]

That’s not gate keeping. That’s ignoring dumb people

[grave token]

not gatekeeping is what has got us into the cesspool that is modern gaming

[unkempt moss]

They just cant figure out the latch on the gate lmayo

[muted condor]

Gate keeping has nothing to do with games keeping their identity. That’s is 100% just reliant on the creators caring

Gate keeping only drives away new people that would have otherwise integrated in

[grave token]

look at tekken 8 and the disaster that it came with

[somber tiger]

Back when I played fighting games, I saw so many people calling motion inputs bad game design.

[noble saddle]

CL40 + Shockwave

[grave token]

thats gl and double jumping

[unkempt moss]

Tekken 8s downfall has been so interesting to watch.

[muted condor]

I don’t keep up with that but isn’t that just the devs trying to make the game for people that don’t play fighting games?

[grave token]

im a jrpg nutball

please dont touch xenogears

[somber tiger]

That seems to be a problem with a lot of new fighting games.

[muted condor]

A lot of games are doing that

[somber tiger]

It's also a problem with the finals.

[muted condor]

Arc raiders is the only game that was made for people who don’t play that genre and didn’t die

They got lucky af that it get super popular from the alpha test clips

[somber tiger]

Arc raiders succeeded because it's a good as a pve game from what I've heard.

[muted condor]

Personally I don’t see the appeal of the PvE aspect but obviously a lot of people do

[grave token]

what ruined arc for me was the aggressive matchmaking system

[muted condor]

ABMM made me uninstall

[grave token]

then again i would touch nothing but stella montis

[muted condor]

I actually enjoyed the game because you never knew what was going to happen with each interaction but then they added ABMM and everything is predictable

You’re ether in a nice lobby or kill everyone lobby

[noble saddle]

The CL40 plays much more like a quake style rocket launcher than a grenade launcher imo

And the shockwave can be a double jump but it's best use case is essentially rocket jumping

[noble saddle]

PvE arc raiders players are whiny mfs

[somber tiger]

Arc Raiders players in general are whiny.

[noble saddle]

And now the games losing players it's like appealing to the loudest vocal minority of any gaming community never ends well

Arc is still mega succesful and a game like that's never gonna last forever anyways but I really do think it kind of has a bit of an identity problem

Outside looking in, marathon has more appeal to someone like me compared to arc raiders

[muted condor]

Tell me about it. I would have people open the door to my key room while I’m inside then get mad when I kill them

[muted condor]

Same, i was having a lot of fun in marathon but my squad stopped playing and I don’t like going solo

[somber tiger]

There's a lot of pvp players and pve players complaining about eachother.

[noble saddle]

I don't understand this, arc raiders was never ever marketed as a PvE game, it's like PvE players just hijacked it for themselves

Quite frankly it's a dog water PvE game, embark was right. The game only works as PvPvE