💣┇weapons-gadgets

[chilly granite]

There's las Vegas, and there's las Vegas stadium, and there different maps

old las Vegas and Ospuze las Vegas

The ospuze one is way better

[unkempt moss]

I actually dont know what variants cashout Vegas has. Sandstorm and regular. I know that.

[chilly granite]

Oh wait, old Vegas isn't in tdm

Cashout has all 4

Old Vegas, old sandstone, new Vegas, new sandstorm

Vegas/sandstorm with sponsors = new Vegas

Vegas/sandstorm no sponsors = old Vegas

Vegas stadium isn't actually a variant though, it's a differennt map

The one with the shitty movement is old Vegas

Blurb from wiki: Las Vegas Stadium was introduced with Season 6 and was the ninth arena to be added. It is a reworked version of Las Vegas that transforms the original into a championship stadium, with a focus on improved movement, cleaner sightlines, and smoother combat flow. Season 6 sponsors OSPUZE, ALFA ACTA, and ENGIMO took over the casinos and branded them to fit their own architectural aesthetics.

Vegas is a shitty map though in general, rework didn't even fix it

[unkempt moss]

Do TDMers also hate Kyoto?

[vale obsidian]

the cover and high ground look so ass to play into wtf is that?

[chilly granite]

It's an aim map

Instant respawn and you shoot at the guy on the other side

People almost never even make it as far as the high ground lol

And the cover is soft cover, bullets penetrate for reduced damage

[vale obsidian]

oh if it's a brainrot mode then I don't mind the map lol

[chilly granite]

Yes

Kyoto has a bunch of one way angles

And a lot of op roofs for sitting on

https://youtu.be/6EUQ0SEnN-k?si=U9Wrm4JHQYox0VL1

[unkempt moss]

You cant disparage TDM when Bow-kun is around.

[chilly granite]

This shit predates the concept of brainrot kid

[vale obsidian]

can tell
how long have that shipment map form cod been around again?

[chilly granite]

Less than this, this maps from like 2000

2007 shipment

[vale obsidian]

oh yeah forgot cs is a thing

surely there's one form quake too but I'm too young to know lol

[unkempt moss]

Isnt CS like the biggest shooter in the world?

[vale obsidian]

the game isn't really my style

[unkempt moss]

Same.

[vale obsidian]

I have tried quake champion tho

could only play vs bot since there isn't any player at all
especially not here in asia

[unkempt moss]

I love arena shooters but im to slow these days to keep up n

[vale obsidian]

Idk why but my favorite part about fast game is the slow part lol

In the finals for example, there are time where it's best to hide and let your team coin instead of going in and prolly get wipe

meaningful down time just feel good

[chilly granite]

Quake live probably has players

Quake never had aim maps though, that was much more of an unreal thing

[vale obsidian]

even so I'm not too interested in stumbling around while everyone else in the lobby annihilate everything they touch

those people been playing the game for longer than I've been alive lol

[chilly granite]

Don't even think about arena shooters then

I was playing against people who been playing quake since before I was born, 10 years ago

Quakes full of old men hahahaha

Aerowalk is the worst because the map is tiny and the old men always know exactly where you're moving and you just eat rockets constantly

I went like, -5 to 25 once on it lol

[vale obsidian]

BRO I KNOW THAT LOL

[chilly granite]

https://youtu.be/8wHr6A7fRxk?si=eTmhE-A-cXOsqjf-

[vale obsidian]

I swear when I watch a game of highlevel quake I'm just in a constant state of confusion

it look like they have wall hack on

[chilly granite]

Sfx and prediction

When you're at a high level, it's pretty easy to understand their motivations, and therefore where they want to be from where they are

And the sfx tell you where they are right now, although it can be mitigated by walking

[analog pewter]

i like fangwai and seoul but skyway is definitely up there

[vale obsidian]

Yeah I know, I'm master 3 in overwatch (top 3%) and I feel like I could read people mind sometime

but being in quake is so out of my element xD

[chilly granite]

Eww overwatch

[vale obsidian]

I quit the game a month ago

[analog pewter]

it's basically incredibly well-honed game knowledge and item cycles and rotation knowledge
like if you know what the common rotations are super well and you know how fast someone can get around the map from one item to another then you can know basically exactly where they're gonna be at a given time relative to you. and if you hear them coming it's basically confirmation

[chilly granite]

To play this shit? Weird take but ok

[vale obsidian]

no more high blood preasure

[analog pewter]

quake is a resource game as much as it is an aimskill game

[chilly granite]

Yeah quake is far more about resources than aim tbh

[analog pewter]

I love watching 2v2s in quake the most, it feels like it has the most skill expression and variance

[chilly granite]

It does depend on map a lot though, some quake maps are very aim dependant

[vale obsidian]

That's another thing
Quake being a resource game ment that having a big atvantage is having a bigger stack.
and that snowball so fast into so many kill onto people who just respawn

[chilly granite]

The most important skill in quake is learning to run and hide

[vale obsidian]

I know because I ask a dude in the quake discord to duel me for fun once

[analog pewter]

i actually really like quake champions bc they managed to fit nearly every single quake movement style in one game in a fairly balanced way
when i played i mained slash and it was an absolute blast. I think crouch sliding is my favorite movement style in any fps game

if the engine wasn't such dogshit that ran like ass I think it could have done a lot better

[chilly granite]

I miss reflex arena

Stoop you're rubbing in how good reflex arena was

The new modes in champs were pretty ass too which didn't help

Honest champions had so many issues but the core gameplay was great

[analog pewter]

my big problem with new-wave arena shooters is that they all don't have an aesthetic. Quake is made compelling by its lovecraftian hell aesthetic imo it wouldn't really be as compelling without that coat of paint yk? splitgate makes me feel nothing, it's just SPORTS

[chilly granite]

I feel like diabotical and reflex both had aesthetic

[vale obsidian]

damn I didn't know champion was somewhat controversial

[analog pewter]

i want an arena shooter with like, a dieselpunk aesthetic. give me a fantasy alt-history post-WW2 style with really chunky stamped metal guns and airship maps

[analog pewter]

i really dont think either of them had a proper aesthetic. they're just battle bots

there's no backdrop, no stakes, no lore

[chilly granite]

I'll give you reflex on that one but not diabotical

[analog pewter]

diabotical is just battlebot orbs....

[chilly granite]

Diabotical lacked lore but there was clear aesthetic theming between the maps and characters

[analog pewter]

ratz instagib was onto something with being funky mice but idk it was just silly, not an attempt at a real setting

[chilly granite]

The new diabotical will probably have actual lore

[analog pewter]

we'll see

btw speaking of dieselpunk i cant believe the only good modern representation of dieselpunk is in fucking halo infinite

[chilly granite]

I get what you mean though, they lacked setting and visual storytelling

They did have aesthetic but it was surface level

[analog pewter]

the eaglestrike armors were so fucking cool i want an entire game that looks like this

[chilly granite]

I mean, it's kinda logical since they were all desperation attempts to save a dying genre rather than anything else

[analog pewter]

that's the thing really, arena shooter devs don't have much vision beyond trying to "save the genre"
but the genre was made by the compelling aesthetics and concepts in the first place, quake would never have been what it is without its grimdark lovecraft setting

[chilly granite]

Like, most games with a setting have such because the game designer cares; most of the quake clones weren't designed by people who wanted to create a world or a setting, just wanted to save genre

[analog pewter]

it's like how the finals is made more compelling by its virtual gameshow stylings, everything happening in the game feels appropriately justified by the setting and the stakes feel more tangible, there's a narrative you're participating in

[chilly granite]

Toxikk had the most setting/visual storytelling

[analog pewter]

ive never heard of toxikk

[chilly granite]

Toxikk Devs clearly cared about the game world they made, even if nobody else did

https://youtu.be/oYPjhOMbDgM?si=kNZzwZU0LVkTUdeB

[analog pewter]

oh this is nice

[chilly granite]

Quite clearly halo derived themeing

But they had a proper single player challenge mode like q3a

And the theme was consistent and it fit very nicely into their world design

Sorta hyperfutrism type thing

Not a proper story mode, but a mode with lore and missions

A lot better than any of the other arena shooters hahaha

It's a low bar though

[chilly granite]

Btw what are your hopes/predictions for patch?

Call of duty advanced warfare might be a better comparison actually

[hardy dust]

Diesel knights might end up as something like that

Its a pretty cool looking indie project

Heavily based on titanfall but with a dieselpunk twist

[slender fiber]

not even Wolfenstein?

I swear that's like dieselpunk adjacent at least

[cerulean furnace]

Cries in DualBlades deflected hitboxes 😭

The heavy I understand somewhat. Needed to aim more to the left and not shake as much, on the Light y'all can't gimme shit like cmon man

I know that crouching while deflecting helps immensly especially against Light's, but man there's gotta be a fix for this. I'd actually even have a worse third strike if it means that the deflect is better

[chilly granite]

Lol that's pretty crazy

Take solace that dual blades has a big causing double hits on reflected arrows sometimes, so I can kill myself with a single reflected arrow that does 9 damage

9/90 doubled to 180 on reflect lol

[unkempt moss]

Third Strike?

[chilly granite]

melee weapons use animation based attacks like in a fighting game

I need to do proper testing butthis appears to be the case for dagger, at least

for dual blades its left slice rihgt slice adn the x slice? i think

[cerulean furnace]

Yea and the hitboxes are usually forgiving enough, tho sometimes they don't register cuz of Ping I think. The deflect just really needs work imo

[unkempt moss]

I like third strike

[cerulean furnace]

That's sounds amazing bwhaha. Happened often or rather rare?

[chilly granite]

about 1/4 reflected arrows double hit, but reflected arrows rarely hit becuase non-lag compensated reflection/light class/projectile reflection

[cerulean furnace]

Naur I love it too, but I think it simplified the weapon a bit, making me and probably other people mash M1 in order to get to the X strike, when I did enjoy focusing on doing a Mix on the enemy by deflecting and attacking in off intervals. Real mind games, super fun

[kindred gorge]

I think he means the game Third Strike

[chilly granite]

so it's a small sample size

[kindred gorge]

Street fighter 3rd strike, i mean

[cerulean furnace]

yes. that one

surely.

[kindred gorge]

I mean he's a got a street fighter pfp

[chilly granite]

I'm hesitant to actually shoot him because at this point I was supsiocus of the double hit bug, but it had never happened obviously enough that I was sure it was real hahaha

[kindred gorge]

unrelated, is it ever optimal to spin attack with the spear in a not gimmick gamemode? I feel like I just die instantly even when I cancel it

[chilly granite]

so I did a very light draw arrow and got oneshotted from fullhp

[cerulean furnace]

that is insane :0

[chilly granite]

9 damage dealt, 182 recieved

91 damage arrow x 0.1 forhim
x2 for me 😢

[cerulean furnace]

Imagine a hidden Parry mechanic when u perfect deflect and it deals more damage sksksk

[chilly granite]

U can literally see me draw arrow to shoot him and then deliberately miss because I didn't want to oneshot myself

[cerulean furnace]

but nah thas def a bug that's funny as hell

[chilly granite]

I trieed to light draw so it wouldn't oneshot me but didn't light draw enough hahahaha

[cerulean furnace]

I wonder if it's because of the light draw, cuz of the speed of the arrow maybe?

[chilly granite]

its happeend on full draw too

[cerulean furnace]

damn nvm lol. wouldn't mind trying out some deflects to see what may be causing it

[chilly granite]

i think it's when the reflected arrow hits both head and body hitbox?

the dual blades can't headshot, so I think it just applies bodyshot damage for both hitboxes

I don't think it's a complicated bug, probably just a small logic error in the reflected arrow

[kindred gorge]

arrow through the jugular does sound particularly effective

[chilly granite]

https://ds7ci3976lwlh.cloudfront.net/embark-studios/31cf9276-9db7-4252-90c9-fa7a959698a0.png?Expires=1769703776&Signature=ZjB5r0u0Lr0BvLhTB4AGFa7DvusZr~0m8y9LMxhtqIxDctj~zBoJdRiJRHnef2Sn~Yk68ftSBLGKf3xQuQ0nvwNZ58SiWxq955tlsAHxuJXm3CgRQNV2~25BQqyUmD942pHDsOqG~fw57ZtaGvFUeu0Ms-59lMHgWEdTX0W7UGzOb1F7Qy8Aum6Pq~fyoyD7xhRGVAH24hHfzY-OdR2WDImLGo62DII3rJyE8AbUEDL9fZKtAef3WOx6jktjkoFYjdkX0KPxVSjANq5iQ-RA3ZooM5VI2T7GimHrWS3iIpBzsas1KDc2b8gdxnKbMZJYy7ILfNGj-PB1-5rxz7J~SQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K3TWGX9UIYEXH4

Meanwhile this is a shoulder hit

https://ds7ci3976lwlh.cloudfront.net/embark-studios/f69ae139-8123-454f-8ac6-82ea99eefcd5.png?Expires=1769703776&Signature=I3xF-b4lSDNFGRSC2v2u~dN6~1nUFekQg84q83V8Sx2UxtPAQqVYv5bRp~xMBl7XRpQ6qwlpFh86Iu6aPQaQrKYAIgylelCb8RdHBmlRQGkwwHsm4EJRmFVb9~VyXueyula3OlkoRiuIhoi7QwF-4KtFgs3aqhtOKqBuFS2yawCf-X08kdb2u91K1Pa01a-cD5GHbfeqFgtiNL5pB3IzLOj5bTlcYz2hz240ZR4mIoU-c9LUdM-z2u43hcj87xV5AvbpmaBzvuS-jrixfo-aU~BhPes9OZs9YEVyHZWsuQ1MTZvqOsZzw8DhpEtEvaJvHfPG6adkfRnmMA-E0cUNbQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K3TWGX9UIYEXH4

[kindred gorge]

Can you slide with the bow drawn?

[chilly granite]

if anything the frame where I shot looks too high, not too low

[kindred gorge]

Or does it reset it

[chilly granite]

drawing puts you at walk speed, and you need to be at sprint speed to trigger a slide

you can draw while sliding thoguh

[kindred gorge]

I was hoping it might be an easy out for the Clip n Slide achievement but doesn’t seem that way then

Wait as I recall you can slide out of dash right?

[chilly granite]

tbh I feel like tryharding it in a tdm will get you it with any weapon that can headshot

[kindred gorge]

Fair enough

I was able to get hotshot pretty easily, but this one has proven more difficult. Current strategy thus far has been sliding down the slanted roofs and sniping the platform

[unkempt moss]

@wraith orchid is someone to ask your question about the spear spin to

[chilly granite]

not on the bow, the bow draw forces walk speed when you touch the ground, stopping you from sliding from dash momentum

[kindred gorge]

Dang it

Probably for the best but certainly inconvenient

[chilly granite]

but lots of weapons are good for slide headshotting on light

93r is probably the easiest

if you try hard doing it, sliding and headshotting everony u see in tdm, no way you don't get it in first round of tdm lol

[placid slate]

You don't btw, you just need a sprint key input

[chilly granite]

i use auto run because I have arthiritus, so I didn't realize

regardless, drawing does block slide

dash numbers

I remeasured the land point/fx end point

fx end is when you have full movmenet control back

dash is both op and shit

so, I htink the actual end is when you regain movement controls

i would need to do more testing but that corresponds quite well to walk speed

[chilly granite]

so dash basically 100% breaks aim for the first 100ms or so, because there's no pre-warning particles or anything

against even the best players, with the lowest latency systems, it does act as iframes for the first reaction time+system latency frames

and repeater hard counters dash
dash has an internal cooldown, and slow moving air frames at the end of the dash, which corresponds with the repeater's firerate

thus making it incredibly easy to killa dash light iwht repeater

[wide stratus]

If you jump, draw and slide then yes

[wide stratus]

Just run into someone whilst sliding

[surreal snow]

I love lockbolt

[alpine sphinx]

they better nerf the fuck out of dash tomorrow, its actually getting unbearable

i dont understand how the devs are not seeing that it is literally class defining in the worst possible way

[chilly granite]

the numbers on dash are unbelievably stupid

[compact tundra]

Light is already the least viable build by far, medium and heavy just out class it in almost every way besides the glitch nade, dash, gateway, and H+. Why are we wanting the devs to kill dash without any other changes. How do you want dash nerfed? How does light remain viable without dash and without grapple and clock buffs? And why is dash so problematic?

[chilly granite]

+30hp

[compact tundra]

What numbers... Pick rate? Win rate? What numbers could apply to dash besides those, it doesn't deal damage and doesn't really have measurable statistics beside cool down and charges

[stoic garden]

my fella there is no use arguing against them ngl

unless you're bored of course, go crazy if so

[compact tundra]

Explain these to me, I don't know the layout of your graph

[compact tundra]

Bro I am, I work retail and I sell men's shoes, ain't no one in here

[chilly granite]

distance/time since first frame of any change

[compact tundra]

That doesn't really explain it. What is land, what is actual end, are the numbers frames or miliseconds or something else. I don't really know what your measuring

[chilly granite]

distance/frame start/frame end/time/speed

actual end is measured until when movement stops, but there's still ongoing visual effeects

land is when feet touch ground

there was an fx end but I got rid of it because the fx end isn't meaningful

I'm not certain what the internal cooldown of dash is, and I need to test that

but I believe it's probaly shorter than land

[dusky coral]

.<

[chilly granite]

internal cooldown is 300ms

(i need to test more to be certain, but that's brief testing)

so you can move 5 meters in 300ms, and then move 5m in 300ms in the other directoin, and there's 0 warning

[muted condor]

That’s why I use glitch traps. Lights are never smart enough to not dash into them then flail around trying to figure out why their one and only way of playing isn’t saving them

[chilly granite]

it's a giant movemenet speed buff that slows over time, so with an internal cooldown of 300ms, you have 200ms to aim at a target moving 17m/s if you have reaction times of 100ms

if you use automatic instead of burst damage weapon, then you have 200ms to aim and track them with however many bullets you can fire in that window

the movement speed buff is such that they are entirely in a different position by frame 3 (24ms)

[muted condor]

Just use superior intellect to predict their next move before they make it

The lights have no way to counter my god level pre fire

[chilly granite]

if you have an average reactoin speed of 250ms, and a monitor running at 60hz with vsync, on, it's ipossible to kill a dash light

[compact tundra]

So then how do I keep killing them?

[chilly granite]

assumin gthat the dash light hits enouhg shots to kill you in 900ms+your weapons ttk on dash light

[compact tundra]

I'm on a 30 frame TV I believe

[chilly granite]

I mean, winch claw exists

[compact tundra]

I kill them as medium to tho, with the Cerberus no less

[candid obsidian]

is there a dedicated community that is based aorund finding fun glitches with like jumppads and goo?

[chilly granite]

firstly, most lights don t use it off cd at cd

dash is kinda too weak and too strong, if you don't spam it back to back, the trail end of it before you get normal movement bakc, is extremely slow

5m/s inabove chart

[compact tundra]

Welcome brother, they appear here sometimes, I having dabbled in it but I'm not religious enough of a goo user to really do too much with it tho. Me and @thick holly did discover a goo tech tho

[compact tundra]

So why don't we just nerf the cool down to like 8-10s and lock the horizontal movement to like 30°, that would solve the issue with dash being OP and then be buff grapple and cloak to be more viable

[chilly granite]

thats why i keep saying nerf dahs?

[compact tundra]

Yea but you want a 20s cool down or like 1 charge. You actively call for it's slaughter, not a reasonable nerf

[chilly granite]

also internal cooldown not cooldown

[compact tundra]

Cool down between uses?

[chilly granite]

between charges ye

[chilly granite]

to be fair, that was before I properly understood it's numbers, so it was vibes based

[compact tundra]

Do you mean a small cool down after each use, or the cool down for a use to recharge

[chilly granite]

button press > button pres activation cooldown

let me clarify, the cooldown is 6.5s, the internal cooldown between charge uses is 300ms

[compact tundra]

That's fair but even then I don't study any numbers and I knew that'd kill it. But I do respect that your opinion has changed and that you were working without data before

[candid obsidian]

Thats sick, i lowkey wanna actually try learning some tech i just was wondering if there was a community that all work together on it liek the easter eggs

[compact tundra]

Not in a unified server or anything. They're just scattered across the discord from my knowledge

[unkempt moss]

Could have just said lights are never smart enough.

[chilly granite]

what I was proposing was/is probably corrrect for tdm, but instant respawns resetting cooldowns and close quarters maps meaning you don't need dash for traversal, means that dash is signfnicantly more powerful in tdm than cashout

[unkempt moss]

WepsNgadg is the foremost authority in GooTech

[chilly granite]

and because tdm is all about fighitng, lights are incentivised to spam dash at min cooldonw, rather than saving charges for future use like they might in cashout

[candid obsidian]

Is that a memeber of the server or does he have a tiktok or youtube?

[chilly granite]

that's the channel name

[compact tundra]

This chat is weapons and gadgets

[candid obsidian]

which channel can i talk about this then?

[compact tundra]

This one is pretty good, but often much lower in volume than the main chat

[muted condor]

redacted

[compact tundra]

Shhh don't let them know that, we can't have white roles thinking this is anything more that weapons & gadgets

[muted condor]

My bad

I still need to make a fam work of some kind so I can hide down there

[candid obsidian]

twin what are we talking about

[compact tundra]

Yea, that sounds fun, but I doubt it would replace this chat, the occasional random and abdominal takes make this place interesting and replace my boredom at work

[compact tundra]

White roles are like zombies
And the weapons & gadgets channel name is the dirty, rotten clothes we wear to mask ourselves, if we changed into clean clothes then they'd smell us out and the horde would invade

[muted condor]

I love arguing over completely arbitrarily things as well

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/men-in-black-mib-will-smith-u-saw-nothing-kharter-gif-12731469441707899432

Can’t have the troglodytes in #⚡┇the-finals-chat finding out

[compact tundra]

God I go to the main chat every once in a while just to read while I'm bored and like without fail every time there either someone simping, some green role bragging about their rank, or a toxic ass argument straight off of a political podcast

[muted condor]

That’s why we love this chat. We argue over the game and hate on defib together

[compact tundra]

Damn guess I hate defib now, been peer pressured

[indigo nexus]

erm… I’m okay with defib…

[compact tundra]

Boo stinky, accept the peer pressure, defib fuckin sucks

[compact tundra]

This is why you aren't a high value man solar

[unkempt moss]

Do not dissent against the beliefs of wepsNgadg, Sausage-san.

There's two rules of wepsNgadg. We hate defib and we hate each other when arguing.

[indigo nexus]

You’re right, I’ll never get a femcel gf like this

[indigo nexus]

No

[unkempt moss]

The second one is just me.

[muted condor]

Boooooo

[unkempt moss]

If you don't come at me with hatred in your heart when arguing then you have already lost.

[compact tundra]

Accept our opinion and I shall be your trad wife solar, I'll shall care for your house inshallah

[unkempt moss]

You are also promised 35 white names after you die for your opinion

[indigo nexus]

I’m less okay with… dome shield I guess

it seems more mandatory than defib, and less interesting

[compact tundra]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/850448260434624573/1319229600382980146/caption.gif

[indigo nexus]

sentenced to half a message

[analog pewter]

They need to make the thermal bore hit players

This game is usually "if you can think of something it'll typically work" but when I first tried to hit people with the thermal bore I was so disappointed

My disappointment was immeasurable and my day was ruined

[indigo nexus]

Thermal bore being able to deal like, 35 damage, seems fair.

[chilly granite]

so balancing evasive dash

right now, I would nerf the internal cooldown to 1s so that dash spam is dead

dash should break the enemies tracking one time in a fight, and if they don't die in that window, you should

[muted condor]

Heavy slander in my #💣┇weapons-gadgets chat?! So you have chosen death

[chilly granite]

Looking at kovaaks scores for similiar scenarios to a dash light, the best scores have a reaction time + aim time of more than 400ms

so we can take it that a single dash is rouhgly 400ms of extra ttk for the very best aimers

[indigo nexus]

dome shield was great and they buffed it more. Now it’s super great

I would rather have another slot in all my heavy loadouts be properly flexible

[chilly granite]

oh yeah i'm so ready for 4 gadget slots tomoroorw

[analog pewter]

Only medium should have 4 slots

[muted condor]

They could lower the health on the dome by a tiny bit

[chilly granite]

so shak vs v9s. 1.33 ttk heavy, 0.57 light

KEKW

[analog pewter]

I think they should just let throwables pass through dome

Except glitch nade I guess

[chilly granite]

with headshots, 1s heavy, 0.57 light

with +400ms on the lighgt, it's 0.97

with light having 180hp, light can beat a heavy with all headshots v9s vs shak

[compact tundra]

That's a problem for upper elo ranked and high skill lobbies. At top levels double and triple dashing is required for dodging the laser beam aim they have, so I think making the dashes themselves more committal via a general cooldown nerf, and making it compete with grapple less by locking its vertical mobility, would fix the issue with dash itself without hurting lights high elo viability

[analog pewter]

Theoretical ttkslop

irrelevant

[chilly granite]

it's a bigger problem in low level lobbies, where new players get dashed on and have a terrible time because they're worse at the game and so they uninstall

Just look at reddit or game feedback

double and triple dashing is mostly required because at the end of a dash, you basically stop moving

[glad pewter]

Ospuze like Diamond Badge, the only thing I need.

[compact tundra]

Yes but that's genuinely an issue with their game knowledge, not with general balance, and could easily be fixed with new players being put in new player lobbies

[chilly granite]

new player lobbies owuld be worse, this game 100% has more smurfs than actual newplayers

also, I'm ont sure why you put it down to game knowledge

[compact tundra]

Another issue not indicative of balance, we should fix social and new player issues directly, not balance around them without thinking about other levels of play

[chilly granite]

I'm literally thinking about the hgihest level of play right now? my numbers are assumign the highest skilled players

[compact tundra]

Cause I wanted to avoid the words skill and issue due to the negative connotation around them

[chilly granite]

the only way they're beating that kovaaks estimate is if the aim assist on controller is actually op

[compact tundra]

But numbers aren't everything, on a practical level double and triple dashing is needed at those levels

[muted condor]

God damn number slop

[chilly granite]

double and triple dashing for utility, yes, for fighting, it shouldn't be neeeded, light should be able to win fights on skill with a single dash, positional advantage from grapple, or surprise via invis

that is literally not possible right now, you cannot beat the ttk of a heavy with shak with v9s at all without spec or gadget

that's headshots vs bodyshots, and a heavy's head is harder than a lights body

I can do the maths if you really fucking want but I don't think any of you are stupid enough to think that a heavies head is bigger than a lights body

[muted condor]

You mean you can’t beat the slow tank class by running at them face first and not using your gear as a squishy? Shocking

[chilly granite]

brother, the heavy has a point and click nuke that takes all the lights hp

both classes have utilitiy and the heavies util is almost certainly net stronger

[compact tundra]

That's the point of the build balance. Lights can't take direct flights without help from gadgets and specs, dash in this instance

[chilly granite]

yes, I'm saying balance around 1 dash use being adequate

[muted condor]

Why are you letting the heavy nuke you?

[compact tundra]

It never will be because K&M and gyro exists, people can flick at crazy speeds and keep their beam on you

[chilly granite]

if dash has a significantly longer internal cooldown, so that you can't use it multiple times in an aim duel, and one dash is enough to win the fight with ALL HEADSHOTS

[muted condor]

Trying to beat a heavy head on will just make you lose every time that’s how heavy works

[chilly granite]

I'm comparing with the n1 score on kovaaks scenarios that are comprable

I'll frame count the grand major to see what real world pros are doing

[compact tundra]

That makes K&M players have such a significant advantage tho, I use controller and I can tell you all headshots is not realistic scenario. I mostly rely on my superior movement and body shots to win fights

[chilly granite]

thats' fine

light will still have utility with bodyshots, I'm not saying light should win an aim duel vs heavy shootoing bodyshots

which btw, can happen right now via triple dashing

[compact tundra]

Tho i have poorer aim even for a controller, but I don't think many controller players are hitting all headshots vs the literal cookie clicker device

[chilly granite]

each dash is probably 300ms of ttk for highly skilled players, based on kovvaks scores. I'll check grand major footage later. that's 900ms of total ttk for a light that triple dashes, which means that v9s can win on bodyshots

that's 120ms of reaction time, (dash has no animation, it starts instantly, takes around 24ms to move 100% awy from start location) and 180ms of aiming time

[compact tundra]

Yea that's kinda the point, with God dash usage and solid aim light can win fights, but without it or when you mess up light will lose. If we took dash down to one and made light head shot reliant with a bit more survivability then they'd basically be medium but with a little less health, a repositioning tool

[chilly granite]

except that light has two specs that aren't called dash
and becuase light's ttks are balnaced around dash, those specs are shit

if you balance lights ttks around 1 dash useage and superior aim, or chip damage, then light is fine with dash, grapple and invis

and ofc limit dash os it can only be used 1 time per fight

internal cooldown 900ms or so

making it so dash spam isn't needed also makes a longer dash cooldown less punishing, while significnatly nerfing dash's mobility compared to grapple

The other element is that dash currently slows you down super slow, slower than a heavy sprint, at the end of the dash, and I think that should be removed

you might be able to avoid that via crouhc sliding but that would require more extensive testing,

and there's still a fairly significant slowdown anyway

[compact tundra]

You can, I do it often, you can also avoid it via slide hopping if I remember correctly

[chilly granite]

I do the same, but I'm not sure aobut how much of the slowdown you avoid woudl be a better way to put it

I think the end of dash should preserve player velocity better woudl be more clear

both with and without crouch slide

I also think that dash shouldn't give air accuracy

the expectation should be that the player is hitting their shots during the dash to gain benefit, the weapons becoming more innacuracte makes that unreliable and makes dash lights less consistently good or bad

I didn't measure crouch slide speed but I don't think it's signficantly faster than sprint speed?

which really isn't that fast, it's pretty easy to track a light sprinting in asingle dirction, and since dash does lock movement, it should be faster

first measurement, manda vs r1pka, 666ms to aim correct at his body

[compact tundra]

The problem I have is your change and ideas would reshape the break points of the entire game, change the health pools from always being 100hp apart to now being
Light > medium (70hp)
Medium > heavy (100hp)
Nerfs dash on its own without considering a buff to the others, making it a completely different spec that gets 1 really powerful use per fight if I'm reading correctly, makes light more of a headshot reliant direct fighter rather than an angle hitter, and does all of this based off of kovaak numbers rather than practicality and the reality of how a fight plays out, I have problems with both your ideas and the fundamentals numbers your basing them off of, the numbers show you perfect inputs not how someone tracking another person would play out

[chilly granite]

dash wouldn't be signficantly buffed

and it's per aim duel, 900ms

dash is already probably 400ms for the best kovaaks players in the world, first pro i tested lost 666ms to a dash

[chilly granite]

the numbers show you perfect inputs not how someone tracking another person would play out

yeah, but I'm using numbers that are perfect outputs for the scenario I don't like, I'm using least faovurable numbers for my arguments

[chilly granite]

The problem I have is your change and ideas would reshape the break points of the entire game, change the health pools from always being 100hp apart to now being

if you want to keep classes 100hp apart, then something else needs to change between class balanace, because fundamentally, medium is not bigger enough/slow enough than light to justify that much extra health pool

Should I calculate the area of the classes and compare the hp:area ratios?

[compact tundra]

I don't know what this means, I don't own a PC and have never studied frame data, I'm guessing they got a 666ms disadvantage on aim in the fight

[chilly granite]

they missed the light for 666ms because of the light pressing dash

[unkempt moss]

Disgustingly based answer.

[chilly granite]

before the dash, they hit every shot

dash activated -> hit for two frames -> dash had moved the light enouhg to be out of their corsshair - > they react, aim, 666ms - > next shot lands

[unkempt moss]

Frame data is so much easier in fighting and useful. Everything is measured at 60fps across every fighting game i can think of.

[chilly granite]

I'm watching tgm which is 60fps

for "realistic pro data in real world scenarios"

[unkempt moss]

There's no discrepancy with stream framerate or anything?

[chilly granite]

it's the youtube recording, it might be 1 or two frames, but not enough to signfiicantly impact the data

[unkempt moss]

Add or subtract 1 or 2 frames in a fighting game and characters could jump an entire tier.

[chilly granite]

I mean, 666ms vs the 400ms I esimated from kovaaks scores

one or two frames doesn't matter, I'm still fucking right

to be fair, I should get more data, but the camera guy is ass, he misses every fight

I'm trying here

I wouln't be surprised if in some situations it was as low as 350ms, but realistically 450-500ms is what I'm expecting

the 666ms was a high one because the dash was behind him, so he had more distance to aim

[unkempt moss]

Take two frames off a jab and it throws off the entire match up balance. Its not nothing.

[chilly granite]

my balance suggestions were predicated on balancing that would be reasonable with 400ms reactions at the highest levels, while keeping the game playable for normies with 700ms reactions

and this data is probably better than what embark is doing I doubt they had a guy watching every fight in the grand major countring frames

[chilly granite]

I mean, this is my argument why embark's approach to "stats bassed balancing" is bad; they tend to see a stat and do a whole number change when 1 frame change would fit better

[unkempt moss]

Never said I disagree

[chilly granite]

and regardless, if my changes were implmeented and dash/light as a whole is unplayable, then you can adjust numbers easily

but medium-light hp discrepenacy has been a huge problem since the game began because light is too squishy so chip damage xcessively punish light compared to medium, resulting in light being too hard to play in a competateive setting

[unkempt moss]

If they implemented gouf patch this wouldn't be a problem anyway.

[chilly granite]

tgm is so fkn bad lol, the ui is crap, the camera contorl is crap, and the meta is crap so there's no fights and the fights only last 10s

[unkempt moss]

I think we should give every class 50hp.

[chilly granite]

I think light and heavy deserve 50hp, medum no

[unkempt moss]

Deal.

[chilly granite]

the hp pools right now just don't wokr becasue you can't balance a weapon to be fair to light, medium and heavy

[unkempt moss]

I'm only a heavy advocate, so as long as we get the +50 it's fine

[chilly granite]

@compact tundra did you see my theroetical ttk graph with 180hp on light? repater and model

117 damage model + 180hp light

this is 180hp graph, showing oneshot damage regions in red, twoshot in yellow

[unkempt moss]

This would be more of a job for Sausage-san, no?

[chilly granite]

These graphs are most interesting when you compare to heavy and medium, because there'es a lot of damage numbers where you can't get good ttks on medium and heavy, without risking being a quickmelee combo on light and making light unplayable

[chrome orbit]

light main db is op

[unkempt moss]

So true.

[chilly granite]

you can't have a 4 shot kill on heavy with a weapon, and not have a 2shot kill on light

I think that's a fundmanetal issue

there's a lot of chip damage available to players, so light is still worse than medium with a 3shot repater kill, beucase of sources of follow up damage

right now, a frag and a single p90 shot will kill a light

do you really want to have that liability on your team in a tournament?

if light doesn't have something crazy op (dash+glitch+gateway+h) to compensate for being a dead man walking ina gme with a great deal of sources of chip and epxlosive damage, light will never be relevent

I hear, I didn't play during the time, but i hear that model was nerfed because of qm comobo on lights

with 180hp, this isn't a problem, and the model can be better than the repeater in CQB rather than just being an entirely worse weapon bar jumping accuracy, than the reapeater

and for some reason the repater has a weird ass spread patter than results in it being perfectly accurate while jumping 1/3rd of th eitme anyway so that's not even relevent

killing your game because someone at the point of intital draft said light should have 150hp is a fukcing horrible idea

[zealous pike]

My friend had a big brain idea what if grenades and stuff with dark matter explodes with dark matter?

[chilly granite]

I'm interested, but I don't undersatnd whqat you mean

but yeah with an internal cooldown of 900ms, dash would be about as good per charge as right now, but dash spam would suck, and mobility woulnd't be reduced mcuh at all

[unkempt moss]

I'll be honest, I dont want a light on my team even if they were better than medium. The light mentality is the problem more than the balance.

[chilly granite]

give it a 12s cd per charge

[chilly granite]

what do u mean by light mentallity?

[unkempt moss]

What does dark matter do?

[zealous pike]

its a skin

[unkempt moss]

They have terrible mental game. Loser mentalities.

[chilly granite]

I've seen that on mediums a bunch too, heavies are the only calm players hahaha

[unkempt moss]

Oh i thought it was a new gadget.

[zealous pike]

i mean like insted of base frag explosion which is like orange? it would look like dark matter. and for gas and stuff it would be dark matter for like 1-2 seconds

[zealous pike]

agreed heavys the goat i a heavy main

[chilly granite]

he's one of your people gookieboy.

[unkempt moss]

Heavy is The Finals. It is our birth right to be at the top of the food chain.

[zealous pike]

https://tenor.com/view/yess-yes-gif-25420589

finalally someone who understands HEAVYS ARE GOATED

[chilly granite]

wepsngadgs is all heavies because heavies like to brag about their op weapons and gadgets

I'm still pissed of the snowball frag grenade doesn't have a snow-splosion effect

[zealous pike]

tru what u guys think about the dark matter idea tho

[chilly granite]

i think embark doesn't have the tech for it

[unkempt moss]

Better weapons, better gadgets. Better mental, better players.

[zealous pike]

and goo man whats ur loadout?

[chilly granite]

skil isssue @ embarkdevs

[zealous pike]

if embark could tho would u like the drak matter greanades??

[chilly granite]

I would rather have a snowsplosion, but I wouldn't mind it

[zealous pike]

fair enough

[unkempt moss]

GooGun + anything really(not spear). Loadout changes with the weapon.

[chilly granite]

doesnt spear goo have passable syngery? beyond spear being shit

[zealous pike]

how u feel about mesh goo man

[unkempt moss]

Its strong, especially with the buff against winch.

[chilly granite]

mesh is a worse googun if you're a selfsish player

if you're selfless then it's better than googun

[unkempt moss]

Very good with certain weapons.

[muted condor]

You know me nice and calm all the time

[unkempt moss]

This is not correct.

[zealous pike]

DANG CHILL GOO MAN

[chilly granite]

I figured it woudln't be very correct, but flat wrong?

[unkempt moss]

Randoms dont play behind the mesh. Mesh is the selfish spec in pugs

[muted condor]

This is true

[zealous pike]

i see

[unkempt moss]

Mesh is only a team spec in high level/pro play.

[chilly granite]

I mean, me and my friends try to play behind our meshes

[muted condor]

Mesh spear is kinda cracked if you’re playing solo

[chilly granite]

we do a shit job of it becusae we are highly disorganized, but we try

[unkempt moss]

Thats pretty much my point. It takes a level of coordination most teams do not have. GooGun you can set your team up for success much easier and passively.

[chilly granite]

I see

[muted condor]

C&S is the goat tho

[chilly granite]

so my vibes based take wasn't strictly wrong, but unrealistic

[muted condor]

Team play and tech? Fuck all that just eat concrete and lights whole

[chilly granite]

that's probably why I hate using mesh, buecase I'm trying to use it as a selfless team support util, rather thanas a selfish tool

and my teams and I lackthe coordination to do so effectively, so it's just crap

[unkempt moss]

Yeah, its not a Reinhardt shield. Its more Brig

[chilly granite]

god yu know u feeling sick when you walk into a wall for the third time in a day

I have no idea how anyone aims through demat

shit makes my eyes cry

[unkempt moss]

I feel the same through Grav.

[muted condor]

Shoot via vibes don’t aim

[unkempt moss]

I just goo the demat closed and dont deal with it.

[muted condor]

Just C&S
It’s literally the answer to every possible situation

[unkempt moss]

Just charge through the demat, aiming no longer a problem.

[muted condor]

Now you’re thinking like a heavy

[compact tundra]

Sorry I've gotten busy and can't talk about your earlier points rn, I'll get back to them probably later tonight or tomorrow, remind me of not. Also this is how I use mesh selfishly, it's really good with Sa or flame

[muted condor]

There is not one situation that C&C can not be helped in one way or another and I’ll die on this hill

[unkempt moss]

Give C&S an overshield for 20% of the damage it does.

[chilly granite]

yeah no aim assist is overtuned

this player just tracked a dash light perfectly, I looked it up and they're using controller

that's not ok

there is no frames of warning for dash, and it's something like 25m/s of acceleration

I need to check what uni's best performance looks like since he's a crazy good player, who is on mnk

[muted condor]

He simply made a educated guess like a true intellectual

[chilly granite]

https://www.youtube.com/live/86o8lGkf830?si=9gJX05WGa1ia8135&t=26519

watch this shit

dash effect first frame

2nd

3rd

that's 33ms after the dash effect started

and the enemy was moving right before they dashed, so they're aiming in the wrong direction for what their brain has seen

[chilly granite]

4th, 50ms after the enemy stopped moving RIGHT

6th

7th

BTW, dash takes 24ms before you are 0pixels in the same location as before

so 2nd frame his xhair must have moved at least half a body to maintain targeting on a target moving at 22m/s

7th frame is about 2meters distance away from start location

phyisiological limit on reactions is 80ms, and you're telling me he aimed 2m the whole time while trying to go RIGHT

either he's cheating, or the aim assist is cheating for him

Literally the frame before dash, he moves his aim to the right

who at embark do I @ at 2am

[unkempt moss]

Brother take a video wtf is this PowerPoint

[chilly granite]

bro youtube will probaly bitch at my obs and I'm tired

you can see the aim assist trying to keep up but not being strong enough lmao

the un-ads, and ads again, that is within the limits of human reaction time, but not human aiming according to my reference, which isn't a 1:1 perfect reference, so I'll check uni's performance

since the kovaaks scenario that I used to decide 400ms as a realistic limit, has smaller targets, with more vertical movment than dash (the "correct" number for the secnario was 450ms, but I tuned down to compensate, so I might be somewaht off)

also can we talk about how gross stallling teamwipes is as the best strategy

coin needs a huge buff so that it isn't a good strategy

[muted condor]

It’s valid

[chilly granite]

I mean, I think it would be valid if it was as niche strategy, but it's generally just the best strategy

[muted condor]

Some people just need to know when to wipe instead of trying to survive

[chilly granite]

no i odn't mean like that

I mean griefing the last surviving player so they can't wipe

[muted condor]

It’s not that hard to wipe

[chilly granite]

???? I'm watching tgm and seeing a player try for a solid 20s

in mulitiple games

[muted condor]

Just start stealing or jump off a edge if there is any

[chilly granite]

that's shitty gameplay anyway

[muted condor]

If you’re held for 20s you deserve that

[chilly granite]

I'm not gonna say you're wrong, but that does not change that incentivising the enemy team to do so is shitty gameplay

and pro teams are really, really good at stalling evrything or they wouldn't be pro

he was medium player with only defensive gadgets for clarity, I just watched ntmr heavy rpg himself

idk about your games but in tgm litearlly every final round has death stalls and it's boring and unfun to watch

the spectator is so bad, he literally never gives uni's pov

[muted condor]

That’s just the top players of any game

[chilly granite]

when there was a meta that had similar shitty mechanics, dota nerfed it in like a week

[muted condor]

It’s always boring af and that’s why esports suck ass and everyone that supports them is scum

[stoic garden]

i like that finals is pushing one billion esports bundles but esports arent that great to watch at all

[chilly granite]

developers have the power to adapat the meta

[muted condor]

And it will be stale the next day because its pros

[chilly granite]

stale is better than poisonous

[stoic garden]

I'd be up for it, if embark allowed spectating matches for everyone, and allow spectators to hop on and off the game whenever they want, and spectate what team they wanted to see

[muted condor]

Same thing if you’re watching for fun

[chilly granite]

man it would be great if games in 2026 had technology that existed in 2006

man this spectator guy really has a hardon for the cb-repeater, the ntmr repeater player died so he swapped to kcp repeater player

[stoic garden]

repeater is NOT fun to watch

[unkempt moss]

ITS VITAL

[chilly granite]

mnk player, dash to first mouse move, 150ms, so reaction time roughly 134-150ms

two times

13 frames from mouse move to damage on target, around 215ms

10 frames from mouse move to crosshair over target (stillmiss) 215ms - that dash resulted in 100% damage avoidance

134-150ms seems to be consistent reaction time

so, 350ms rather than the 400ms I predicted for the best players

so nerf aim assist so dash actually works

and then nerf dash because it's seriosuly broken but aim assist is broken too

[candid obsidian]

That just looks like the guy is tracking in the second clip. unless that is K&M

[chilly granite]

second clip is k+M

and the time to aim for the controller player was faster btw, it's not evident from the clips themselves

the time to aim on the second flick was faster than the controller, but it was shorter distance, so I think a controller woul'dve been dpsing the whole time (this is an assumption based on the other clips heavy aim assist)

I can vaugly see sponz's shoulder moving, and on his stream, he has mnk binds

[thin quarry]

Do u have normal time clips? Like not slowed down or at .9? It doesn’t look crazy to me

[chilly granite]

ye gimme sec

[chilly granite]

I mean, the most important context here is that r1pka is moving his aim to right before dash is pressed, and his aim moves left the same frame that dash is pressed, which is humanly impossible

if you react to a starting whistle/starting lights in olympics/f1 in less than 100ms, (6 frames), then it's a disqualification because it's too close to the human limit

the physical speed of signals in the body is around 80ms

I was gonna post these earlier but I got destracted in another channel

[thin quarry]

I mean have you ever heard of a prediction? I mean they are the top of the top

Rotational aim assist helps but ur bringing too much into hit

[chilly granite]

his aim is already on the leftmost edge of the playermodel, a prediction of further leftward movement with no evidence to supoprt it would literally just cause him to miss

unless the aim assist is op

[thin quarry]

A guy hit his shots, simple as that. Ur over analyzing 2sec of an entire game

[candid obsidian]

i was looking back at this message and wanted to ask what kinda tech exsisted back then that allowed a feature like this without providing vulnerabilities and also server lag?

[chilly granite]

HLTV

[candid obsidian]

could you explain further?

[chilly granite]

trying to

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/558D-FD60-531D-98BC

HLTV was founded in 2002 by Martin "Martin" Rosenbæk and Per "Nomad" Lambæk. It was initially created to host "Half-Life TV" IP addresses and demos, which were used to watch Counter-Strike matches in the early days of the game. Since then, the website evolved to include news, results, statistics, and more.

So, the software predates 2002, becuase ther'es no point making a website for software that doesn't exist

Half-life tv was a piece of software created by valve for their half-life based games, suhc as half life, HLDM, counterstrike, and evnetually team fortress 2, countrestrike go, tf2

it was a software that acted as a secure proxy, it would be a spectator in the game (so it would get all the game data) and then it would bundle that data up and send it to a server, that would act as a spectator connection to a virtual/copy of the real game

so people could connect to the proxy IP, which were listed on hltv.org, and thier game client would just act likeit's a spectator in a real game, with no idea that the match it's spectating is a copy and paste

games descended from Quake, (including but not limited to, half life, counterstrike, tf2, and many cods) include functionality to record the game state/network data to a file, and then play it back as if you're a spectator also, these are called demos

the orignal functionality in quake was as a demo screen, for advertising the game in computer shops; if you leave it on the main menu, you can see a recording of someone playing the game

but demo files were much smaller than video files, so it was the common/normal way to distribute recordings of pro matches when the internet was slow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwm3-VI60vw

[candid obsidian]

also before i go into it was that more of like a bitchy moment? like a say it just to get it out?

[chilly granite]

I mean, this is interesting game history, so if you care it's worth a read

tldr: proper client spectator support ins't that complex and embark should do that first if they want an esport though and I'll die on that hill

valorant not bothering is a joke too

[candid obsidian]

i guess the other argument is this was the first large major so maybe they just wanted to test a format and see hwo many people would give a shit about esports to see if its worth that much time to implememnt something like that or not

[chilly granite]

I think that's not really valid because terminal attack was a clear attempt to build an esport out of finals

I think there's more likely a manager who wants an esport scene but who doesn't understand what's important to support one

hence shoehorned in budget r6seige and TGM with the worst spectator experience ever

video streaming is cheap, so there's not a technical advantage to using technologies liek HLTV now

so building out hltv has effectively 0 reward for them outside of yay now people can spectate games wiht good functionallity

and if they don't really "care" about giving people good spectator functionality, they just want to have an esports scene, they're not gonna bother

[chilly granite]

fundamentally aim assit doesn't belong in a tournament for money. I got health problems, I understand some people need stuff like aim assist and controller to help their ability to play at all, but that's not for a competition for money

[thin quarry]

Why are we whining and over analyzing about something that already ended.

This is how the majority of all esports tun their esports and Valve is obviously a bigger company than Embark.

If you really wanted to watch someone’s pov most people livestream of just watch a vod after the game took place.

[chilly granite]

valve post hl1 was not bigger than embark post arc raiders

[thin quarry]

Thumbs vs an entire arm, its needed to some degree and a 2 sec clip doesn’t show its broken lmao

[chilly granite]

at the time of hltv they had some 25 employees or some shit

[thin quarry]

The majority of ruby players are almost all mnk, showing its not a problem.

Look at cod, everyone plays controller. This game is mnk by tons more.

[chilly granite]

then don't play for controller if you would like money

[thin quarry]

That doesnt make sense

[chilly granite]

if you do not want to whine and overanylise something in the past, you are free to spend your time talking to someone else

[thin quarry]

Lmao

[chilly granite]

why should controller players with aim assist be allowed to compete for money with mouse and keyboard players without?

they have the paralympics for people who need assitance

controller players can play a controller tournament

[gleaming aspen]

ngl i wanna watch somekne in a wheelchair race against usain bolt now

[chilly granite]

even in the paralympics, there are different catagories for types and severety of disability, to try to ensure a fairly level playing field

the idea of suhc a huge amount of aim assist being acceptable in a competition with a financial reward is a joke

[chilly granite]

Btw you don't actually think that anyone is correctly predicting, and then tracking, someone moving 2m in 100ms right? Just for clarity.

Considering that's about 4.5x faster than aiming speed too

No warning, no indication, he just guesses and aims, some 4x faster than the correct speed for tracking the player if they just started strafing instead of pressing dash button

And tracks near perfectly

Faster than the physiological limit of the human body

[serene glade]

hur dur whole arm vs thumbs

[deep karma]

I don't think you can take spectator cam at face value as you are doing, right? I mean when they open fire on the first burst, every single shot misses from their crosshair position, yet they all land, like so:

I don't think spectator camera considers client side lag compensation

[chilly granite]

That causes the cross hair/point of aim to lag, not be ahead of position , which means it's actually worse than I'm suggesting

See the mnk clip for reference, you can see his first shot connects while his point of aim is lagging

[chilly granite]

It shows the game state (now) and shows the players point of aim (last server tick) assuming it's lan

If it's on network it's players point of aim delayed by connection time

Either way, the players point of aim should always be lagging behind, not ahead, of the enemy

Which is highly visible on the mnk clips

The mnk clips look entirely as expected, just numerically shockingly good

By contrast the controller clip doesn't look as expected and is numerically even better than what is already insanely good

With what I think is uncontroversially a worse mechanism for aiming

I've got finals downloading on my steam deck and I am appauling at controller FPS, so I'm very interested to see the results

Playing on Steam deck instead of desktop is also going to be a catastrophic downgrade in performance and lag

So even being functional is Sus when I'm bad on a 240hz monitor and 180fps

Hahahah

Also for context, I was a pretty staunchly of the opinion that the bigger reason than aim assist for controller being fairly popular among pros was that dash gains 360° of directionality with controller

I'm not some crazy aim assist is hacks kinda person, but Ive had a bunch of deaths to people who could not functionally aim at a wall, but could track me perfectly since I started playing ranked which has killcam

And they're all console players

I'm not even touching my steam deck and it's aiming

Bro no this is insane wtf

Oh my god I'm in training range to sort out bindings and sensitivity and I'm having problems with the aim assist locking on the wrong bots

[narrow solar]

Bring back 2 glitch grenades on lights

[chilly granite]

I'm still unbelievable bad but sometimes I manage to get the aim assist to work and I hit every shot this is insane

I killed a medium bot with 26 bullets with M11

And then I drew a circle around a medium bot with M11

Like, both of these are not the same player

[thin quarry]

U dun?

[narrow solar]

I think the only reason aim assist needs to be strong is so we can keep the already dwindling player base

[chilly granite]

Ask anyone from the channel, I'm never done

I've talked for 36 hours before

[chilly granite]

I think strong aim assist is fine in casual gamemodes, but certainly not tournament play, and even ranked is sketchy

Certainly this level of aim assist in ranked is insane

[narrow solar]

Ranked is just broken. I don’t know how they haven’t fixed the awful system

[chilly granite]

But aim assist on in tournaments is another level of bullshit tbh

Man I can't even kill a head crab in half life with controller, this is crazy

Queuing tdm

[narrow solar]

Aim assist is crazy but honestly I’m used to playing against it with cod

[chilly granite]

3-14

That score may be horrible, but I don't deserve even that many kills bro

It took me 3 tries to get through a doorway

I'm so bad I made the aim assist miss

The aim assist was dead on the guy and I smashed my joystick and started missing hahahah

I do not understand how people enjoy controller

Not even the joysticks, the buttons

I feel like I have so few and so many at the same time lol

Getting 3 kills on a damn steamdeck even on mnk is probably hard lol

I'm at like 35 FPS with 50% render scale on a tiny screen

I got a double kill guys

This shit is insane

5-8-10

This is a literal aimbot dude, I'm so hilariously dogshit with controller, there is 0 player skill in this

I turned off aim assist to check I'm not a monster with controller all of a sudden and no, I'm fucking garbage

I'm not even good letting the aim assist work and it's still letting me get kills lol

5-10-12

Btw I'm not using my gadgets because I'm bad enough just tryna walk around and click people with controller lmao

The aim assist likes the 93r, I'm not sure why

[analog pewter]

I'm going to sleep early tonight BTW friends, ping me if they add a black cat tail

[chilly granite]

Will do if I wake up first lol

[thin birch]

Try gyro, also why are you onlg in #💣┇weapons-gadgets

[chilly granite]

I've tried gyro before and I'm ass with it too lol

I don't actually care about controller, I'm not gonna use it, I have arthritis so big sweeping motions with a 400dpi mouse is a lot better than twiddling a joystick

But I didn't want to have a harsh opinion about aim assist without trying it first

[thin birch]

True, i also like low sens. 1600dpi 15 sens

[thin birch]

Why are you only in #💣┇weapons-gadgets though

[chilly granite]

Wepsngadgs is a self selected community of nerds who enjoy discussing balance of various aspects of the game

Other channels have people who don't self select for that topic and behave like the aim assist defender earlier. Not interested in discussion and rather just want to shut down conversation they don't like

And being a tdm main, weapon balance is my jam

[thin birch]

My honest opinion is microslop should just implement gyro into xbox already and every fps game gyro should be the main way to play. Joysticks are just inferior in so many ways for fps games

[chilly granite]

Joystick movement is very interesting

But analogue keyboard movement can probably replicate it to some degree

And joystick aiming is ugh

I mean, I'm so unfamiliar with joystick that I can't even move well with it, but analogue movement is cool for sure

[thin birch]

There's nothing wrong with joystick movement. It's just joystick aim. With gyro the joystick can be turned into a flickstick

[chilly granite]

And track pads are better than joysticks, I don't know why the steam controller 1 got so much hate

[thin birch]

https://www.twitch.tv/voiceless_gyro/clip/SarcasticSmilingPotatoAsianGlow-RE6TfTQwsU7HmMQ0 here's an example of flickstick being used for instant turns

[chilly granite]

I tried it because there's a lot of FPS games I'd like to play on my steam deck

But gyro is probably worse in steamdexk in part because it has a screen and a computer built in lol

[thin birch]

Steam deck is a bit clunky to use with gyro aso because it's a bit heavy

[chilly granite]

That's probably significantly bigger problem for me because of my arthritis too

But yeah, the other element is button ergonomics

So much worse than keyboard/mouse

[thin birch]

Gyro is a bit bad when it comes to being inclusive tbh. It's a bit demanding more so than joystick and mouse n keyboard

[chilly granite]

Gyro with a lightweight controller would probably work well with my condition, because of the type of motion it requires, but the other ergonomics of a controller make it not worth the effort over kbm

Joysticks are one of the best input methods for a lot of people with health issues, but for most of them a desktop joystick rather than a controller is a better choice

[thin birch]

Oh yeah ive seen those weird keyboards shaped like a hand with a joystick

[chilly granite]

Like, with a controller, you need to grip it, and then you have thumbs on top, fingers on trigegrs/bumpers

And fingers on the underside

But for stability, the bumper and underside buttons are considerably stiffer than would be comfortable for people with health issues

And even for healthy people, the stiffness of commercial controllers probably isn't good for their hands lol

And trying to multitask aim/movement/face buttons is really gross lol

Like default keybinds are stop moving to equip gadget? What the hell?

[unkempt moss]

Get on Tekken. NOW

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

I'm a be real

I never got into fighting games because I saw the move list and gave up hahahah

But yeah, I also don't have too much of an issue with aim assist on casual modes

I mean, I think tdm is the one casual mode where aim assist shouldn't exist if any of them.

But ranked should not have aim assist

If you want to use controller and play ranked, get good with gyro, get good with joystick, or live with being a silver at your true skill level

I do think aim assist being buffed, when the CB is already dominant, probably contributed to the player base being crappy in S9

Aim snapping is overturned for sure, I've seen people completely potato their aim and then aim snap to me

Or even, I think you should have to choose between aim snapping and slowdown when on enemies

Being able to have both is a big double dip in accuracy

@compact tundra not sure details of your setup but controller aim assist is busted, I'm appauling at using a controller and I was hitting beams I can't hit on mnk

Not consistnetly enough to actually you know, do well, but my aim swapped between agonisingly bad and aimbot level

The susiest controller players are all on steam (the rubies and such I see) and certainly using high refresh rate monitors and suchlike

I'm fairly suspicious that there might be a bug in the aim assist making it frame rate dependant

Might be worth making sure your monitor is in game mode and your vsync is off and frame gen is off

One of my friends has been aiming way better since he turned off frame gen lol

Also the mesh shield video was super cool and I appreciate it, I might give it a try but I'm scared of playing heavy lol

At least I can feel vindicated in all the reports I sent to embark saying "either this dude is cheating or aim assist is way too strong" lol

The r1pka clip isn't even dramatic, like, if he was using an M11, the aim assist would've resulted in the enemy dying from pressing dash where they would survive against any mnk player

[compact tundra]

I'm on Xbox so I ain't got no monitor, I use a Roku TV.

And my aim assist is pretty weak but I honestly might have it off. In most games I play that shit is ass and way too strong. I'll be shooting one guy and it'll pull me away from him to shoot another. But also most the weapons I play I wouldn't notice it, only really the m11 and some of the shotguns I would notice with aim assist and I barely feel it

[chilly granite]

Same applies to TVs, more so, latency difference between non-game mode and game mode is often 100ms+

If you're TV doesn't have one, then oh well, but it's worth checking

[compact tundra]

Let me see ig

[chilly granite]

Up until this season shotguns didn't have aim assist and even now, as I understand it, it's weaker than other weapons

Heavy can fight enemy dashlights with a laggy setup better than medium or light can, and flamethrower doubly so, but I'd still expect a moderate degree of dash lights bullying you with your setup and no aim assist

Like, I'm pretty sure if we copy and paste that clip of aim assist, that's an extra tick of flamethrower DPS, which is a big deal against a puny little light hahaha

[compact tundra]

Na dash lights are only a problem if I miss my winch/lockbolt or if they are engaging me from mid range. They melt too quickly to do anything once I've got my hands on them.

Also I turned gamemode on

[chilly granite]

Winch hitbox is a meter wide, which is a separate issue hahaha

[chilly granite]

Let me know if it feels better

[compact tundra]

I don't miss it often, usually If I miss it's cause of a wall or cause I'm winching them in -5m range while dash sliding and I predict them wrong

[compact tundra]

I will but tonight is Stardew time, I'm collecting every fish in the game for my emporium. I recently found out you can use challenge bait on the legendaries and I nearly busted on my TV

[chilly granite]

Stardew is goated, take your time responding,I'm meant to be sleeping right now anyway haha

I really hope they nerf winch though, 1m wide hitbox is crazy lol

And the line of sight checks to make the hitbox shrink don't work properly either

At least make it stun heavy more than victim! They can winch you into a dome, into mines ,into teammates; getting a long stun on top is just insulting

[unkempt moss]

I hope they remove the heavy class tbh. I'm ready to move on

Im tired of holding on to the little hope I have

[chilly granite]

Don't post funny things that'll bait me into saying awake right after I said I need to sleep

I need to go to sleep now so I can wake up when it's patch time

[unkempt moss]

Nama, pull the plug

[serene glade]

deagle finger gun skins and bfr damage nerf and xp buff

[chilly granite]

No plz no xp buff

[serene glade]

my dad sajam works at embark, he told me this

[chilly granite]

Nerf the arn the xp is fine

If the buff xp instead of nerf arn I'm flying to Sweden and shitying on their doorstep

[unkempt moss]

Welcome to the mmmmmaasssssive mid season patch. We nerfed googun and changed nothing else. Thank you for your continued support.

[serene glade]

I'm so pumped to wake up to a nothing burger, you have no idea

[balmy carbon]

w

[unkempt moss]

Reporting this guy for spam

[serene glade]

w

[chilly granite]

I reported your mum for spam

[unkempt moss]

L

[chilly granite]

180 hp light or riot

[serene glade]

If monster hunter wilds online worked, embark would be so scared

[unkempt moss]

Theyre so afraid to let me finish a hunt.

[chilly granite]

Can someone explain to me why all the mediums and heavies are so afraid of light have 180hp with a gutted dash and invis?

Are they just afraid of light being actually relevent and not one shot?

[serene glade]

Game needs server overhauls and to set all the hitscan clones apart in class by making one or 2 guns projectile exclusive. Tweak as they go. But we will be getting finger gun deagles

[chilly granite]

God I saw so much hype for finger gun deagles and bro, the deagles are the coolest guns in the world? Why would you downgrade to finger guns?

[unkempt moss]

Embark is actually the most scared of the upcoming momentum patch.

[serene glade]

Idc if light had 180. I'm pretty sure I recommended gutting their dash and giving them more HP and seeing what breakpoints change and figuring out as you go. But I'm apparently bad for not being able to track a triple dash zig zagging away from my sledgehammer

[unkempt moss]

Days are numbered.

[chilly granite]

No you're right, dash is op and everyone who said otherwise is either delusional or bad

180 hp is the right answer, you can make light 2/med2+qm/heavy 3shot for model

2+qm/3/4 for CB

With 180

And light then has a little more bullshit resistance to stuff like frag, Rpg, mine

There's no way the CB should be able to twoshot light ever

That's literally impossible to balance

Twoshot bodyshot, for clarity

Light would still be hs+bs with proposed changes

[serene glade]

After playing sniper for a bit don't worry bud I agree. Id love light to be able to be flexible and not forced on dash because it just abuses server desyncs and ping it feels like most the time. Id even love for sniper to 2 shot a medium but that would make power shifters quite upset

I think 125 body is fair with the amount of healing in the game that could quickly stop you from being 2 tapped

[chilly granite]

I'm not convinced that dash is abusing server desync/ping

One of the best aimers in the world took 350ms to aim at a dash light

And the internal cooldown is 300ms, which means it's immortality without aim assist

[serene glade]

But I wouldn't want 1 tap headshots

[chilly granite]

I've told embark to do 1.75x hs multi on some weapons

The aim assist allowing extra hits on a dash light is fucking insane though

I've accused so many console players of cheating but no, the aim assist is just massively overtuned

[serene glade]

I just want the game to feel fresh again after being stale for like over a year now. Aim assist is strong and especially on dash, but I pick my battles. My priority is gameplay updates rn. I'm assuming finals is rotational aim assist

[chilly granite]

I think embark is doing stats based balancing and the average console player is playing on a TV with no game mode and needs significantly more aim assist than a player on a low latency pc with 500fps and a fancy monitor

But the aim assist ttks aren't better than the pc ttks on average so aim assist is "balance"

[chilly granite]

Aim snapping, rotational aim assist and slowdown when aiming at a player

All three is crazy work, you can see in the r1pka clip the rotational aim assist does most of the aiming and the aim snapping finishes it off

I'm sure coercing the aim assist to be that helpful takes some degree of skill but holy shit

[serene glade]

I remember not playing on controller in like over 10 years and hopping on Apex for a week only on controller to experience aim assist. It's isnane how much easier it is

This was after the whole .3 change and everything too. It's still nutty to me how much of a monster you can become by just running in people's faces

[chilly granite]

Cashout has killcam and the killcam is what made me Sus on aim assist

I saw so many people that couldn't even point their camera in the right direction and then perfectly aimbot me

[serene glade]

I don't trust the cam, and have it disabled

[unkempt moss]

Is there any player collision in this game?

[chilly granite]

Yes

I don't know the rules but there is collision

[unkempt moss]

How much? Because I feel like people dash through me all the time.

[chilly granite]

I think dash bypasses collision

I wrote this before you did but I had cooldown

[unkempt moss]

Thats my nerf to dash then

[chilly granite]

Remind me next time you see me shitposting and I'll test it

[unkempt moss]

You effort post, not shitpost

[chilly granite]

Bad take it wouldnt be a significant nerf because collision/acceleration rules would likely push them around the side anyway producing name outcome

[unkempt moss]

Lights standing in my body isnt okay. I have phantom pain.

[chilly granite]

I mean, I too think it's annoying when they do that

But the way to produce that outcome is to fov lock dash sideways

[unkempt moss]

My savior

[chilly granite]

I have not phantom pain from heavies stepping on me

But yeah, a good dash nerf is locking it to sideways movement

The problem is collateral damage such as sword

Skilled players can do movement sideways anyway

[unkempt moss]

Nah. Just dont let them stand in my body. Ill handle the rest.

[serene glade]

Skilled players can also player cover and not overextend

[chilly granite]

Dash lets them phase through you, but not live inside you

[unkempt moss]

I need to see how the player collision occurs.

[chilly granite]

No I mean, skilled players can use dash as a navigation tool like sideways bunnyhopping, so it can still be useful for flanks

I'll do proper testing of collision eventually but for now you're on your own

You will not trick me into getting out of bed

[unkempt moss]

No one else can do it

Just save it for tomorrow

You have a lot of testing tomorrow with the new patch. Just do it then.

[chilly granite]

https://youtu.be/xMb0eJXRiho?si=9VxQSdVZhQmI_G_l

5min 40

This video is shit

[serene glade]

A lot of testing.... brother nothing is xoming

[chilly granite]

I can live with nothing, if the CB is nerfed or light gets ANYTHING good for grapple

[unkempt moss]

We should play TDM together Bow-kun

[serene glade]

Btw aim assist/controller allows perfect circle strafing which mnk is not getting
But we will save this topic for another day when someone brings up muh whole arm

[chilly granite]

Bruh I'vealmsti dropped from top50 cuz I've been too sick to play for the last few days

[unkempt moss]

I'm not even top 500k. So its okay

[chilly granite]

Hahahh

I played a couple today but cuz I was so sick my scores were disgustingly bad

Worse than my scores when I played with controller, if that isn't proof of aim assist being op

I went 2-15 one game 😢

I mean, I was struggling to test the dagger and sword because clicking was painful, so I'm not sure why I'm surprised I can't aim with such a level of pain hahaha

[serene glade]

Bow user, look at the street fighter 6 roster and tell me who to play until Ingrid drops

[unkempt moss]

Tell me who im playing after March 17th

[serene glade]

The revived protagonist

[unkempt moss]

Im used to being hated...

[chilly granite]

Idk where to find the roster lol

[serene glade]

[unkempt moss]

https://www.streetfighter.com/6/en-us/character

[chilly granite]

Isn't Cammie a street fighter?

[unkempt moss]

You can pick my character from anyone on that list. Do not pick the wrong one

Yes Cammy is a character.

[chilly granite]

Terry gives me goog vibes

[unkempt moss]

Do NOT say he can play Terry

[serene glade]

Fuck yeah, Terry it is

[unkempt moss]

No. It isnt.

Do not play my sub

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

[unkempt moss]

Who are you picking for me since you gave away my secondary.

[chilly granite]

Jp is very gooking

[unkempt moss]

I will find where you live

[chilly granite]

That's 100% gooking

You sleep less than I do lmao

[unkempt moss]

I understand he has drip, but he is not fun to play.

[serene glade]

Local cuisine

[chilly granite]

Doesnt gooking seem like a chess puzzle kinda guy?

[unkempt moss]

I play with my heart.

[chilly granite]

Gooking is 100% into cleaning the map of lights

[unkempt moss]

In everything. Googs plays with his hands.

[serene glade]

Don't listen to him, he's about to rip out existential quotes over this

[unkempt moss]

Googs, he reacts and plays optimal. Me? I rip burn knuckles to stop drive rushes. I'm all heart, baby bear.

I'm what you call a concrete weed. No talent, all heart.

[chilly granite]

Ryu is too cool for hooking

[unkempt moss]

I won't sit here and be insulted.

[chilly granite]

Ed seems like a twink which I think is funny for gooking to play

[unkempt moss]

I do like playing Ed because hes a boxer.

But I do NOT use the psycho power.

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

[unkempt moss]

And if they had a cool boxer in there I wouldn't touch Ed

You actually have me and Googs backwards. He's the zoner set play fella, I'm the punchy grappler fella

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

That might be true by playstyles but for sure you're more of a thinker and he's more vibes based

[unkempt moss]

I had to teach him how to play in a cool way. Are you nuts?

[chilly granite]

It's the thinker that can teach

[unkempt moss]

I had to teach him how to play with his heart.

[chilly granite]

I see you as like, Muhammad Ali,

Fucking smart but you're in the ring

[unkempt moss]

Alright. I'll take that.

[chilly granite]

Googs I think of as like, more slow play, considered, but stupid

Think kickboxing or whatever it is where they just stand there and wave their legs at each other

[unkempt moss]

I love that take.

[chilly granite]

And the CJ guy or whatever, feel like he fits your vibe good

Kinda intellectual but he looks like he wants to throw down

[serene glade]

[chilly granite]

Jp

Oh guys predict the patch notes

What you guys think we gonna see

[unkempt moss]

CB and BFR nerf, I think RPG reverted to 100. Im trying to think of a possible big change they could make.

I think they could make another nerf to goo in general.

[chilly granite]

Pyro is gonna get buffed somehow

[unkempt moss]

I'm not sure how they nerf winch again, but maybe the stun removed.

[chilly granite]

Hitbox adjustment please, it's stupid

[unkempt moss]

I just think its that large because they are compensating for the server issues.

[chilly granite]

But the bare minimum is that user should be stunned for longer than victim

[unkempt moss]

I wish they would do a rework rather than just driving winch in to the ground.

[chilly granite]

Tks are quite small

I think winch is so large because they gave it a 300ms windup/warning animation

But that's too long so it's too hard to hit the projectile, so they made it fucking massive

Also, the animation is super subtle which means it's not actually useful for dodge

So they should make the winch throw at camera angle at end of the animation, so it's more reliable for user and more dodgeable for players

With a smaller hitbox

The arrow is 18.5, the tks 13cm wide, and both work quite well

So you don't need it a whole meter wide

[unkempt moss]

I dont think they are planning on making that nuanced of a changeb

For me I hope they buff sledge. I'd like to dedicate some time to it.

[chilly granite]

What buff would you like to see? I'm not against it but I'm not sure what you can do without upsetting people

The game needs to be better about teaching anti-melee strategies to new players

[unkempt moss]

I'm not sure exactly how I would buff it. Buff M1 to 105.

[chilly granite]

Isn't it 125?

[unkempt moss]

Wiki says 100.

[chilly granite]

105 probably fine, and could be beneficial

2left+qm on medium is nice

[unkempt moss]

105 would leave light unaffected. But 2xM1+QM would kill a medium.

3xM1+QM a heavy.

[chilly granite]

Yeah I think it's nice

[unkempt moss]

I think M2 needs a little help against healing but that may be by design.

[chilly granite]

Nah

H+ should be getting dumpsters anyway

[unkempt moss]

I'm also bad at sledge, so I probably dont have a very rounded opinion on it.

[chilly granite]

No, I mean h+ will get nerfed

Sledge Vs h+ is annoying

If you don't have dome shield they will outheal you

[unkempt moss]

I just have a hard time believing light will get anything but buffs this patch.

[chilly granite]

The only buff light needs is +30hp

If light wasn't a oneshot risk then light would have been dominant in every season probably

But taking the risk of playing a man down in a game where a death means 2v3 for 30 seconds minimum basically

Like, it's too much punishment for 150hp

[unkempt moss]

I'm hoping Deagles get some love.

I dont think they'll give light 30HP ever. I understand what you mean with the change, its just the game would need a lot of love after that

[chilly granite]

That's basically why I think now is the best time to do it

Light is in a shitty state, so unlikely to become totally broken even with +30hp

Like, the matter, bow and sr84 go from ok to good with 180hp, but not broken

The bullshit weapons, dB, M11, get slightly more problematic but can probably be fixed pretty easy

Xp is instantly balanced

Arn already needs a nerf

Tbh I feel like the meta is in a bad enough state that it doesn't get worse by giving light +30hp

[unkempt moss]

How much damage does two deagle headshots do?

[unkempt moss]

Buff the deagles by 1 damage and you can have the 180.

[uncut lantern]

Deagles are tough cuz you probably don’t want Heavies sniping with them lol

The BFR Titan is the Heavy’s sniper and it’s slooow

[viscid carbon]

Reading this chat and I see so many sensible and unique suggestions

Would be nice if not every patch was just an unimpactful change where they nerf/buff some gun's damage by 1 or range by like 2.5 meters

[alpine sphinx]

A DOME SHIELD NERF; ARE YOU FUCKING SHITTING ME?????

[plucky spade]

HHM nerfed

Dome had 100% pickrate across all seasons bru

[crude ivy]

We NEED more heavy nerfs in the chinals

[plucky spade]

Maybe more barricade usage now?

[plucky spade]

Light is back in the meta with two glitches wym

[alpine sphinx]

so does dash, and so does defi, are they getting significantly nerfed? Nopeeee

[alpine sphinx]

Barricade was on a good path at the start of season 9, but then they reverted all the changed cause they implemented bugs and now its back to being just meh

[plucky spade]

Doubt you can nerf dash without making light straight up unplayable and defib without making it something else entirely atp

[slender fiber]

idk that dome needed a 16% nerf the same patch that glitch got buffed that feels a bit heavy handed, the glitch buff is very good in a vacuum though

[robust sundial]

What happens to the pike going from 48->49 damage. Anything?

[plucky spade]

Well, barricade is up

[slender fiber]

fuck barricade

[plucky spade]

Bps vs med and heavy i suppose

[slender fiber]

that's no fun but dome is

[plucky spade]

Yep that's the weapons-gadgets i know and love

[alpine sphinx]

There are a bazillion ways to make dash more balanced, and light players crying that its "unplayable" without their get out of jail free card, is not something the devs should be worried about. And Defi can also be nerfed in ways that makes it still viable, but not useless

[robust sundial]

Interesting the Ak wasn’t touched

[slender fiber]

my fault for wanting to be able to use automatic weapons instead of burst damage or poke

[robust sundial]

Or the Shak…

[alpine sphinx]

even more interesting the M11 wasnt touched, and that the devs confirm that they want a full auto meta by only buffing full auto weapons

[upper pelican]

Idk why they did that it's still 4 shots to kill light

Like it's changes nothing

[left sage]

They really are allergic to big buffs to stuff nobody uses eh

[upper pelican]

And they didn't nerf repeater

[placid slate]

Only actually notable change was a revert

[plucky spade]

They want poke meta out and the repeater is not nerfed though wtf

[slender fiber]

can they increase the cooldown of dash if they want to nerf dome so badly

it's the least they can do so light players would actually have to be good at the game

[left sage]

I mean I hate lights as much as the next guy but lights are not exactly OP right now lol

If anything I want to see grapple buffs

[plucky spade]

Heavy main?

[slender fiber]

I would 100% buff grapple too I'm just sick of every light running the teleport behind you button with 3 charges and a short cd

[left sage]

Behold the humble joy that is winch claw shak lock bolt

[slender fiber]

I like charge n slam 😔

[left sage]

Your light fears shall be no more

Lockbolt em then

[slender fiber]

but Iowanna lockbolt

I want to rpg C4 boom boom boom

[warm narwhal]

then do that

[left sage]

I just wish stuff like pyro nade or explosive mine would get buffs too

[warm narwhal]

valid statement

[plucky spade]

The humble c4 rpg the door

[plucky spade]

Also you playin on mk or controller

[slender fiber]

mk

[left sage]

No barricade changes after they took away our easy placement makes me sad too, no spear changes no mgl no Cerberus

I want these updates to make me think damn I gotta log on and try out X change that looks interesting, these are snooze fests

[plucky spade]

Watch as the cerb comes back to meta and everyone cries about cerb

[warm narwhal]

agreed

[plucky spade]

Point break changes good tho

[warm narwhal]

fair but i dont play very often

[plucky spade]

Embark gotta drop the mid season patch updates only ig

[warm narwhal]

could you elaborate

[plucky spade]

Buffs and nerfs should come a bit more often

[warm narwhal]

true

[plucky spade]

Actually no, shouldn't let the LoL update cycle in the finals

[warm narwhal]

elaborate?

[slender fiber]

and they should buff frag grenade, akm

[plucky spade]

Nah

[misty saffron]

Light with m11 still op imo
I think, we need separate balance for “pro league” and other game modes
Playing with something like BFR and Repeater is A LOT harder that dashing around with M11 or ARN in Team dead match

[left sage]

BFR has me going from feeling like God to bronze in the same ranked match sometimes lol

[warm narwhal]

BFR is good if you have the required aim

same with the repeater

[left sage]

They are both incredibly hard to counter when the user ain't missing

[misty saffron]

I’m not saying that they are bad, I’m saying that it’s a lot easier to play with m11 or sword, cause with single shot weapons if you miss one shot - you’re dead by the time you reload
It’s about how many mistakes you can make

[warm narwhal]

fair

[placid slate]

Random fcar nerf is kinda funny ngl

[misty saffron]

I need to check exact numbers, but I fell like if Arn starting spay you in the head you don’t have enough time to load a second shot in repeater

[warm narwhal]

you do if you keep jumping

[misty saffron]

TDM soon will be 5 lights vs 5 lights

[misty saffron]

Yeah and under a dome shield XD

[warm narwhal]

no not really

[lucid maple]

Can’t we get new guns ?

[indigo nexus]

Embark have answered by prayers (which I never voiced to them in any capacity) with the dome shield nerf!

[indigo nexus]

For a mid-season patch? That’d be unprecedented

New gear is always for a season update

[lucid maple]

Well I’m tired of these guns I need something new

[indigo nexus]

well embark doesn't work on your whims :p

[plucky spade]

Brainrot

Atp this is actual brainrot

[lucid maple]

I don’t get you ?

[indigo nexus]

You sound as though you're frustrated that they won't rework their update methodology because you are "tired".

[warm narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[indigo nexus]

oh, what the hell, you're right

[lucid maple]

I know but I feel like we need something better, at least a better gun range mostly especially” heavy”

[indigo nexus]

most people seem to disagree that heavy should have ever gotten a long range gun, but that's what BFR is for

[plucky spade]

The BFR, lewis and deagles are right there

And they're all meta

[lucid maple]

I feel like you’re getting wrong, you have to be more accurate using BFR if you miss you will get punished for it

[warm narwhal]

it aint that hard to aim bro

[indigo nexus]

BFR is the poke heavy meta, but yes it is a bit more punishing than some other weapon designs might be

[lucid maple]

Lewis doesn’t have a lot of damage compare to shak 50 with just 20 max which isn’t cool

[lucid maple]

Go and try it with controller then you know it hard to aim, but when you’re using mouse isn’t

[misty saffron]

I mean, say you standing on flat plane, when I guy have 3 consequential escape abilities, 60 round mag (almost true) and smaller silhouette and other guy have 8 shots with a cooldown between them, how is that balanced?
I’m ok with bow, knifes, even double barell, but smg that melt you, or slice half hp from Heavy from 50 meters away, nah man
LH1 - ok, but Arn and other smgs should be nerfed, so that you have to use dashes to evade shots, like you have to jump on Mid to even have a CHANCE to load the second shot XD
This is ridiculous

[warm narwhal]

i tought you were playing om pc sir

[candid vessel]

Anyone else underwhelmed by the balance changes? Im amazed the M11/repeater/shak haven’t been touched considering 80% of the people i see are using them. Also buffing the pike by 1 damage and nothing else feels like a slap in the face.

[lucid maple]

I’m using controller

[warm narwhal]

then i understand why you dont like the BFR

[faint steppe]

I genuinely think they forgot it's even in their game. The only one who knows is the guy who designs the skins

[lucid maple]

So you see how hard it’s can be to aim lol 😂 with BFR

[warm narwhal]

well for me its easy to take care of lights with repeater

[plucky spade]

Pit a lewis vs an arn and see who wins

Everything else is teamwork

[candid vessel]

Im amazed that the repeater hasn’t been nerfed more. When people asked for revolver buffs ages ago they said no because they didn’t want the revolver to be what the repeater is, and then they just added the repeater.

[indigo nexus]

pike buff goes insane

[plucky spade]

"oh yeah revolver two tapping lights shouldn't be allowed"
The gun that two taps lights:

[candid vessel]

Also if the repeater can 2 tap lights the sniper should 2 tap mediums

[candid vessel]

With more range and ammo and less recoil 👍

[warm narwhal]

fair statement right there

[candid vessel]

Ty 🫶

[slender fiber]

they nerfed the item that allows most for use of automatic weapons in the same patch as buffing it's direct counter and claiming they want to encourage using automatic weapons

[plucky spade]

And the community was ok with it because??,??
Gamers deserve everything that happens to tehem

[slender fiber]

W embark moment

[indigo nexus]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[indigo nexus]

because repeater has half the firerate, mayhaps

[misty saffron]

Ok
But this argument doesn’t counter what I’m presenting
Also I want to see how easy it is when you have double barell or m11 dashing behind you back and behind your back again continuously firing
If you win in those situations a lot, I worship your mastery, but it’s still not the argument I’m presenting
It an argument about accessibility and hardness level

[plucky spade]

Lmao

[slender fiber]

dome shield when compared to barrier is best for using stuff like Lewis gun etc or your teammates using ak fcar p90 etc, because it makes sustained engagements where burst damage isn't as good but while claiming to want to encourage using automatics, they hard nerf it and buff the counter (I wanted to glitch nades buff anyway but it's too much on top of a nerf)

[grand turtle]

Funny attempt at buffing FCAR
Turns out it is a nerf in a way
Could have left the firerate like it was

[candid vessel]

That just means its easier to use because it requires zero recoil control. Also it has far more range and can hold more bullets.

[plucky spade]

It's more controllable ig

[indigo nexus]

Ah. Hmm. I suppose it is less useful for burst damage weapons. However the nerf was definitely needed. I hope they compensate with other balance changes instead in future.

[candid vessel]

Makes it weaker against lights

[plucky spade]

Barricade buff coming

[slender fiber]

glitch buff = good
glitch buff and dome nerf without buffing automatics as much as they should = bad

[indigo nexus]

This would be true if not for the word "just".

[plucky spade]

Fr? Damn that sucks

[indigo nexus]

and heavies.

[slender fiber]

also they could buff frag grenade as well which is a good counter to shields

[plucky spade]

How

[indigo nexus]

Huh? How?

[slender fiber]

in theory the shield doesn't matter if you chuck a made in there

[candid vessel]

Its the same shots to kill w a lower fire rate. Haven’t done the mental arithmetic for medium and heavy yet

[plucky spade]

S1 fcar would like a word with you

[indigo nexus]

nades bounce off...

[candid vessel]

Bro it was EVERYWHERE

[slender fiber]

then change that that's silly

[plucky spade]

Headshot multiplier?

[candid vessel]

I remember 12 fcar lobbies

[slender fiber]

I want them to buff the counters to dome not nerf dome itself, make people play smarter

[plucky spade]

Kinda dome's job y'know

[indigo nexus]

reasonable. May have been a nicer dome shield nerf.

[candid vessel]

Good point actually i need to factor that in

[plucky spade]

Fcar lives and dies by its hs multiplier

[indigo nexus]

its job is flexible and should be adjusted as required to make the game the most interesting. I wouldn't mind it being a gun counter but useless vs nades.

[slender fiber]

also bring back my 2 charge frag grenades please I beg

[indigo nexus]

mmm, not sure about that one

[warm narwhal]

that was a tad bit op

[slender fiber]

as a heavy main I would love this

[slender fiber]

they have indicators now and also do less damage than back when they had two charges

[warm narwhal]

fair

[plucky spade]

Team fortress classic would like to talk with you

[faint steppe]

I still think they Glitch nerf to 1 was a good idea. But it also exposed that shields have basically zero counterplay outside of it

[plucky spade]

Grenade spam is not fun

[slender fiber]

never played it are grenades important if so that sounds fun

[candid vessel]

I still wish the frags could be cooked

[plucky spade]

Nobody talk to him abt chokepoints

[slender fiber]

now that would be too far because spamming nades that explode instantly wouldn't be fun

[candid vessel]

I think it would need a damage nerf if they could be cooked

[slender fiber]

sounds more fun than demoman sticky spammers spamming M1 and M2

[candid vessel]

Or just add a separate cook able grenade that does less damage

[slender fiber]

as a frag enjoyer I want to be not able cook them because that usually makes multiplayer games worse

[candid vessel]

I still wish we had an impact grenade that did maybe just 70-80 damage or something

[plucky spade]

It's ok bud you didn't play that, every class had 4 nades min

[candid vessel]

Fair, i dont use them that much in other games so i wouldn’t know

[indigo nexus]

that's literally pyro nade

[slender fiber]

I played battlefield 1 and fort Vaux was one of my favourite maps which is grenade spam 24/7 trust me I know what it's like

[candid vessel]

Pyro nade does not do that much damage unless the enemy just stands in it for a couple seconds

[slender fiber]

it's just a little uninteractive to be hit by a grenade that explodes as soon as you know it's there is all