suggestion-discussion

[tiny wigeon]

Just a heads up guys. Ironmace doesn’t read this channel, if you’re making a suggestion for them to read, you have to use their website.
This is the place to discuss the suggestions on the website.

Just letting you all know so you don’t waste your energy thinking this is the place for it.
I see a bunch of great suggestions but sadly this isn’t where you should send them.
If you want to suggest to ironmace then use https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/

[proud sigil]

Bring back 3 v 3 gob caves. Why the fk i am forced to play this shit caves again. 3v3 gob caves its the best

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[civic zodiac]

yeah i highly doubt it... no one go to a website just to scroll 1million old post to vote if they dont read here then all the things peoples talk about over n over would have never happened in the first place. if its really the case they need a rework of their customer suggestion system

[tiny wigeon]

Im not telling you my opinion on this. Im just reiterating how the devs said. This is how the channel is supposed to be used. Im not saying i agree with it, but i just see many ppl come here and write a suggestion that will be lost in the void, since this isnt the place for it.

[civic zodiac]

well that is wrong if its the case. most of new videogame discord have a dedicated suggestion discord opening a subsection to discuss about it. it brg so many idea (even if most are bad) to help keeping the game getting better and better.

[static turret]

remove dropping items in lobby i just saw someone dropping a cape to another player to bypass gearscore

in solos mind you

[strong grotto]

Dude, ignore him. I've blocked him loooooooong time ago...

[elfin vale]

rename rogue to victim

[chrome gale]

hp in dark and darker feels like an underwhelming stat compared to armor i think if the scaling was 3 hp a vigor to 10 hp a vigor itll make the stat more appealing

[tulip venture]

Maybe if it was only available on half the gear pieces it is on rn

[chrome gale]

hmm maybe shift it towards more plate gear. I just notice only a few niece builds go vigor rn and feels underwhelming compared to denying a % dmg every hit

[tulip hill]

vigor also determines Health Recovery, which I know isn't really a big deal once people start carrying a stupid amount of meds but its worth considering
but lets look at some hypothetical maths
PDR cap I think is still 75%, granting a 100 health character 400 effective health
I'm not sure what max health would be as that takes sources from a lot of different places, but I've never seen anyone with even 200 health, meaning you'd need at least 50% PDR to match
while building health does help against magic damage as well, resistances makes healing proportionally more effective
but also sense both of these number feed into effective health, increasing how much health someone can have also buffs PDR builds
I think if we wanted to buff building health, we'd need to do it in a way that doesn't make PDR more powerful

since shields (such as Potion of Protection) don't benefit from resistances, we could have them scale off max health instead of having a flat number
however, this would make the potion and anything else affected by the change less effective on squishy classes which may cause a point of contention

[strong grotto]

Rename yourself to whimper, lol. And learn to play the class.

[sterile wasp]

Make it so that lanterns can attach to your waist and give rename tokens or something

[stuck forge]

Gear matchmaking worst change they ever made

[civic zodiac]

i like it but it should be no normal only. highrollers need to be ranked / mmr based its too easy to abuse it by going naked with luck potion and get gear advantage vs naked not even lvl 15 opponens.

would be nice if they implement it on normal. like squire geared player will still play vs squire but if you bring gear outside of it you get a warning you get matched with gearbased player pool.

cuz rn theres not even way to abuse of this on highrollers it also render having gear pretty useless unless going for demigod.

[elfin vale]

fat 🫃🏼

[strong grotto]

Stupid.

[outer dove]

It would be really awesome if mimic tooth would stack

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[dim coyote]

Make Gearscore visible in player menu. Annoying to do math everytime to not get rolled.

[tulip hill]

even if it doesn't tell you your exact gearscore, it would be nice to know what bracket your party is in
and while its not a huge deal since it takes the average, but it would suck to pull your friend into a higher bracket than they want to play in by mistake

[outer lotus]

A must, upvote gentlemen

[hallow flare]

Hard agree

[outer lotus]

🙌🏻

[green vapor]

You're crying about a class that has been nerfed a 1000 times LMFAO

[hallow flare]

Complaining to dying to the worst class in the game is a super funny skill issue. (Although I do think rogues are in a good spot now, so how bad they are isn’t as big of a gap)

[green vapor]

quite literally my point, rogues kind of got buffed with this new gear change again

and its still not better than 80% of the classes

[tulip hill]

I quite like the spot rogues are in at the moment
hand crossbow might reload a little too fast though as its a little too effective as a harassments tool
I'd like to see hand crossbow get pulled back just a tad
maybe give rogues a little bit more team synergy to compensate, I like the idea of Jokester and +2 all is useful, but I feel it is lacking thematically

[hallow flare]

Regardless, rogues aren’t 2 shotting anyone without some major skill issues involved lol. I think nerfing the hand crossbow isn’t necessary good, because it hurts it a lot for other classes that may want to use it, but honestly I’m not sure how to balance it tbh

[tulip hill]

out of everyone, Hand Crossbow has definitely become more of a rogue weapon
Ranger and Bards can use alongside their sword, but ranger has crossbow mastery and getting a reload off as bard isn't nearly as important to them as it is to rogue

not to mention most bards that want to use a ranged weapon will just have a normal crossbow or survival bow

[hallow flare]

Fighter could use it too, but don’t generally, but I’m pretty sure it would work with slayer

[tulip hill]

I do believe it does work for slayer, but you don't generally see it because its not a native fighter weapon, those who run weapon mastery generally go for a bow or the windlass instead

[hallow flare]

Ya, that’s why I think it is a shame it keeps getting nerfed because of rogue, because it’d be nice if other classes could use it but there is just no point

Maybe it gets a big reload speed nerf, but a slight damage buff too to compensate

[tulip hill]

that would be a good way to keep it from being too powerful on rogues without making it worse for other classes
sure the first hit will hurt more but the rogue won't have as easy a time getting additional shots off, meanwhile everyone else who only planned on shooting it once before going in just has a little bit more damage

pushes it towards being an engage tool and away from being a harassments tool

since we are on the topic of rogue, what are yall's thoughts on rogues having something that allows them to open doors silently?
maybe a perk that reduces your interaction speed while holding shift but makes it silent
or a skill that prevents any sounds you make for a few seconds
just throwing some ideas out there

[uncut pivot]

is matchmaking working? i keep getting into matches with no one

[rich torrent]

You don't see it on slayer fighter because it has a -20 move speed while castillon has -10 and short sword has -13. Also, as you mentioned, there's a -10% damage to any "non fighter" weapons. The reload is not really all that quick, rogues appear to be able to fire it so consistently because they are all carrying two of them

[hallow flare]

I don’t think that is a great idea, because it would punish players who are carful imo. I think being able to loot silently, like opening/closing chests without sound could lead to really cool ambush opportunities. Maybe just closing doors could be silent for rogue but not opening?

[rich torrent]

I rock a hand crossbow with my rapier or arming sword and run crossbow mastery making the reload super fast as well as applying the 5% pdb to my melee attacks

[hallow flare]

I don’t think that works though, most mastery effects only apply while using it, I.e. actually swinging with it. I think it should work though

[rich torrent]

Works as long as you have a crossbow out.

Ranged weapon mastery is different and only applies while drawing a bow or firing a crossbow, but crossbow mastery applies the 5% constantly while wielding a crossbow.

[hallow flare]

I wish all weapon mastery worked that way lol

[rich torrent]

Also, any +weapon damage or stats in general on the crossbow will apply to your main hand attacks as well, but that's the case in any dual wielding situation anyway (like how lanterns work)

[tulip hill]

I can see where you're coming from, opening doors silently is rather strong, so even if it had a downside being a perk might be a bit much
I'm still not sure about it if it was a skill
skills have a lot more opportunity cost than perks so I could totally see it be balanced as a skill

[hallow flare]

Ya, it as a skill I think would be balanced, because it hurts burst damage potential, so I think that is actually a good idea

[tulip hill]

coolio, good discussion

[fickle plover]

Warlocks are still insanely overpowered and still need to be nerfed into the ground

[fathom bolt]

skill issue

[fickle plover]

I can play a Warlock and see it from both sides so... no

[fathom bolt]

i play all but barb really and everything can compete against warlock

[fickle plover]

Then you're bad at warlock... skill issue

[fathom bolt]

i guess that also means every single warlock ive fought is a shitter

no issue killing them on any class ive played

so once again, skill issue

[fickle plover]

Good, we agree then. A hit-scan ranged ability that both deals damage and heals the caster is far better than any ability any other class has, and that's just the start of the Warlock's issues.

[graceful yew]

They sure love acting like one

[lament sequoia]

Suggestion Hire a balancing team...

[dusky ingot]

i think for the multiclassing they either need to have the skill reset take less time, take no time or be able to remove one skill at a time
currently to do any sort of fine tuning to a build you just have to get lucky, because if you dont then its 24 hours until you can try again

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/545921/rework-multiclassing-skill-reset

(i have a max level character in test server)

[brazen token]

Its 2024 and this is a team game with quests for killing specific classes to unlock better shops, and I have to compete with other people on my own team to land the finishing blow to get credit for those quests.

[tulip hill]

yeah, its extra strange when you consider that the game doesn't care who in your party gets the final hit on "kill this specific PvE" quests

[sharp cape]

make rogue hand crossbow a perk again
the entire class is just hand crossbow kite, its like 1/10 rogues that actually run other builds
with this many kite builds its impossible to fight anyone without a rogue just following at a distance to kill whoever wins

[tulip hill]

I'm not a huge fan of perks that simply enable the use of a specific weapon, but I do recognize that kiting with a hand crossbow is a bit too effective at times, especially against classes that don't have a ranged option that can contended against it
earlier I had a conversation talking about this very thing actually, I said there that making the reload time longer while buffing the damage slightly to make up for it could push the weapon to be a primer rather than a kiting tool. Every one else who can use the weapon besides rogues have better options available to them, so the uniqueness of being able to wield a sword at the same time would make you think it should be used right before or in between using that sword

[rain sundial]

Please for everything that makes my mind work and go sane. Nerf the rogue, please or remove it from the game. It is so incredibly busted the fact that I go into the Regular goblin, caves and 8 games in a row. As warlock, get stomped in buy one single rogue that only takes two hits to kill me by going Invisible and then popping out of it. And 2 hitting me is insane. They just throw 4 daggers and then stab me by going a 100 miles an hour running at my face and then just killing me instantly every time. There's not been one run in the last 100 rounds I've played. That has not resulted in some sort of rogue trash. Getting in my mouth and stabbing me, please, please. Please remove rogue or nerf rogue hard either by removing the amount of damage that the daggers do or nerving the abilities and skills. I just can no longer handle going into solo lobbies and getting my mouth. Dumpstered on by rogues constantly over and over and over and over and over again. It's so dog water. I cannot even fathom how they even came to give the rogue. Such a high damage potential for such a little rat piece of garbage character. I've been playing this game Since it released with.
The demo on steam and the rogue has always been way too strong and needs to be nerfed Way into the ground

[light hound]

Torture master Warlock sucks though

Its healing is too slow to be of any significant use in actual PVP combat - and he deals much less damage stacking MH

[light hound]

What I'm finding really interesting is this chat constantly has both sides of Rogue is OP and Rogue is a victim. Perspective can be a hell of a thing

[gilded ether]

Been chasing bards and clerics madly because of this... i dont mind losing a nice kit to get a finishing blow, shouldnt be like this....

[somber wind]

500 gold is absurdly cheap tbh. I think the timer offsets that without it being absurd. I'd be game for a Mind Wipe Potion being droppable from any Boss rarely that can be given to the Fortune Teller to skip the timer. Resetting specific abilities I feel like makes it too powerful tbh, there should be an amount of time players try to get what they want.

[dusky ingot]

24 hours though?

[tulip hill]

Do yall think explosive bottles should break doors?
without multiclassing, only 3 classes can break doors, Wizard, Warlock, and Barbarian (unless I'm missing something)
and between Wizard now being able to lock doors and general tomfoolery that goes on with them, I feel like using a consumable anyone can use to remove a door from play wouldn't be too crazy

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[ripe turtle]

This is what pisses me off. Kiters like Rangers, Rogues, Wizards etc abuse the AI of mobs. When one of these class players gets chased by another player, they pull the whole area worth of mobs to chase them. And whenever the chaser gets closer to the kiter who is closer to mobs, these mobs automatically turn their chase towards the chaser, allowing these kiting players to corner these chasers and kill them with ease. Ironmace, this sort of BS needs to stop. There is no sense allowing to abuse this to their benefit, especially against melee classes.

[static turret]

mayne dont just W key like an ape?

[elfin vale]

rename rogue to victim

[ripe turtle]

Maybe keep your comments constructive instead of talking nonsense? Thank you!

[static turret]

its not nonsense? Why do you chase someone way faster than you into a room of mobs?

[hallow flare]

“More frail classes can escape from me and I can’t adapt, IM plez make them walk into my sword”. No such thing as “kiters”, everyone can do that no matter how slow you are, just requires more skill

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[strong grotto]

Rename yourself to whimper. And learn to play the class.

[forest mauve]

please make wendigo claws tradable no one has the time to farm 100's of them 😂

[idle plover]

I do not understand why impose a multiclass when the basic characters are not balanced I have the impression that you want to kill the game. Leave us the original game and put another multiclass server ca becomes anything!

[tulip venture]

I think it would be pretty sweet if even for a pre wipe event we could build a character from scratch where say every other level until 40 you got a multiclass token but started with absolutely no perks or skill’s except a classes base stats and ability to equip things like armor / weapons

[strong grotto]

That's the whole point of having multiclass. To see how funky and/or broken can one class be with perks and skills of the other, lmao!

[idle plover]

it’s your opinion, but when you see that it’s something big and that the players will stop playing ... the skill tree for each class is ca the real D&D

[proud sigil]

Keep gear based match making but heavily nerf stats rolls. So people cant abuse green gear with god rolls

[feral plinth]

why would you wear gear then

[tulip venture]

It’s fairly cheep to put together a “god roll” green kit that fits in the lower bracket and it’s HR there’s supposed to be gear at least now you know they don’t have 30 frannies or knifes

[tulip hill]

while I doubt they would assign gear value to specific rolls, since that would be them admitting that some stats are straight up better than other, they could introduce weighted value based on how close to max a roll is
for example, Magic Power can roll 1-6 on a spellbook, so a green spellbook with only 1 Magic Power would be worth like 30 gear score, while one with 6 Magic Power would be worth 60

[proud sigil]

for base stats lol u idiot

[proud sigil]

yeah that would be good too

[feral plinth]

"nerf stats rolls" - "for base stats". which of us is the idiot? mspd > all but stay bad kiddo

[proud sigil]

base stats are not rolled idiot lol. only armor or weapon damage sometimes

and u know what i mean lol, dont be fool

[tulip hill]

I think by stat rolls they mean enchantments and base stats they mean the innate stats of the rarity

[proud sigil]

yeah i mean enchantments

[feral plinth]

I do, and it's still a terrible take. I'll take my movespeed over your gear

and while you get danced on cause you can't catch me I'll laugh at your corpse

[proud sigil]

yeah u probably like a gear based game than a skill based game lol

[feral plinth]

because I'm advocating against gear being the factor here? you're not that bright are you

[proud sigil]

actually they nerfed the addtional move speed u could get from gear to 80% so rage and sprint are more valuable now

[feral plinth]

except gear has an inherent -mspd, but keep looking like a fool

[proud sigil]

"king" i said: Keep gear based match making but heavily nerf stats rolls. So people cant abuse green gear with god rolls. and u said a thing against that, i dont really undestand u, are u bipolar lol?

[feral plinth]

"a thing against that" is a cute way of saying you want gear neutered enough to barely be worth wearing

which I happily pointed out would make it near useless due to the loss of mspd you get from wearing it anyways

[tulip hill]

I mean, many people still wear gear in white lobbies, but there are definitly a lot more nakeds in those games

[proud sigil]

neutered? base gear stats are strong enough. for gear based match making, people are abusing enchantments to benefit a lot, so removing or nerfing them heavily would be good, because that wouldnt happen and that type of match making will work well

[feral plinth]

yes, neutered, I know it's a big word for you

"abusing enchantments" = wearing gear that isn't terrible

keep on with your regular interaction speed gear though

[tulip hill]

What if some of the power that comes from enchantments were moved over to innate stats instead, flattening the power gear provides without actually nerfing it?

[proud sigil]

neutered is removed basically, like you being neutered lol

[feral plinth]

that's what they've already been doing over the last several patches, gear used to not have basically any stats

[tulip hill]

okay, but do you like those changes?

[proud sigil]

i understand u, u need gear to play the game, thats it, its ok. i like the gear too but not massive difference between using a gear with good enchantments and another one with bad enchantments

[feral plinth]

I don't have to like or dislike them because I look at the combination of stats that gear gives not just the enchantments

it's the same reason people generally only wear loose trousers or chausses...comparitively, the other gear is just worse

[tulip hill]

Let me rephrase
Do you think the game would be better off if the difference between a random blue and a BiS blue was lessened?

[proud sigil]

every gear has a purpose, u use loose trousers for speed, and chausers for knowledge. but with enchantments u could use chauses with speed, so the gear lose its identity, same as the multiclass system. basically devs dont want class or gear identity

[feral plinth]

I don't, no

the people that generally want that come from tarkov with the excuse of being able to kill a loaded pmc with a bad scav kit

[tulip hill]

Alright then, I don't have a follow up as I don't have very strong opinions on the matter, I was just curious

[feral plinth]

so what you want is for gear to be homogenized so that the difference between loose trousers with knowledge and chausses with agility is like 2 points either way

sounds like a surefire way to lose gear identity

[daring trail]

thoughts on GBMM?
Is it everything you guys have wanted?

i will say it is better than what i expected

[tulip hill]

I don't think that's saying much lol, by the sounds of it a lot of people weren't expecting it to change anything

[daring trail]

i dont pay attention too much here anymore, i just remember a few months back people were begging for GBMM thinking it would save the game

[tulip hill]

I haven't heard much from the people who asked for it
as for my personal experience, I haven't really noticed it, but I was never one to worry too much about gear diff anyways

[feral plinth]

the only thing it's noticably done is give naked or ungeared people a safer farm in HR

[daring trail]

agreed. that definitely feels good. i dont play nearly as much, i cant just spend on a baller kit, so staying below that 199 keeps the game fun/competitive

[feral plinth]

I don't necessarily think it's good

norms should be where you are if you don't play much and wanna have fun. good greens/blues aren't expensive if you know what you're shopping for

[daring trail]

im not really arguing to keep it or anything, just that its better than expected.

if you are in a low tier lobby you just cant have as big of a come up anymore.

[tulip hill]

That does create a strange dynamic though, making budget kits not just easier on your gold stash but potentially better for AP as well, but I guess those building BiS kits are probably more concerned about PvP than those just trying to farm gold or AP

[feral plinth]

you absolutely can have a huge come up, just not from PVP. you get the benefit of getting free good gear from pve with little risk

[daring trail]

yea, youre 100% right

but for me, after like 1-2 pve games im tryna pvp lol, pvp is def the most fun

[feral plinth]

same for me. it's not the same for everyone but I'm worried that a lot of people that want the pve-only aspect of the game are going to have enough influence for there to be a queue like that in the future

[tulip hill]

this problem can easily be solved by having higher brackets grant better drops

[daring trail]

honestly, ice cavern seems like the pve map imo

You can completely avoid ppl on this map i've found. just sticking to the outskirts and avoiding the inner 3x3

[feral plinth]

agreed but thats up to them to implement and you know there would be plenty of outrage from the naked farmers

[lapis iris]

Thats actually a really smart idea

[tulip hill]

well those naked farmers should invest just a bit of money on some luck gear

[feral plinth]

if you've played any amount of the low-gs HR right now you'll see your fair share of rogues in only luck gear

I still think they need to make the GS calculations by affix and not by rarity

[tulip hill]

I mean, makes sense
if you find luck in normals might as well equip it, most the stuff you find isn't going to have a meaningful enchantment on it

[tulip hill]

Like I said earlier, they probably won't assign GS to the different enchantments specifically, but a % of max would be nice

[feral plinth]

depends on the piece. I'd never wear an ornate jaz with luck over basically anything because of the mspd penalty

[tulip hill]

On rogue, yeah probably not
but fighters would rock that, they got sprint and no one is running around with min/max speed armor

[feral plinth]

I would never rock it on a fighter

[tulip hill]

you really like speed, don't you
in any case, you could always strip it in a fight and put it back on when looting

[feral plinth]

ask anyone that plays at a high level, mspd is king. it's why they just took out all the mspd affixes on everything but boots

[tulip hill]

that's true in a lot of game, but you still gotta weigh its value
like, I at least wear a shirt when doing "naked" runs so I don't take a ton of extra damage
9/10 times having an extra 5 ms isn't going to let me dodge that longbow I didn't know was being aimed at me

[hallow flare]

Anyone else notice that base, the light plate gauntlets actually increase movement speed on the base? I don’t think the devs even realize what they did, but the -1 mspd doesn’t matter when it gives a ton of agility. Feels like an oversight

[feral plinth]

shhhhh

theyre monster cleric/warlock gloves

[hallow flare]

Fs, I’ll take demon armor just to wear them even if I’m not wearing any other plate lol

That and a helmet usually that is, I like barbuta a lot on warlock

[low egret]

put the gear score calculator in the game make it known and obvious to the player what lobby they are queing into.

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[light hound]

The Matchmaking system must be much more sophisticated for it to succeed in its core objectives:

1. Providing new players a good, addicting experience
2. Providing a reasonably fair lobby for all players (no player has a near 100% win probability)

To accomplish this, the matchmaking should include some critical weighting mechanisms:

1. Ranking bucket - players should be put into lobbies that roughly reflect their skill level in the game. A hidden MMR taking into account KDA against players (considering gear and rank) and extract rate will estimate the correct skill level despite adventurer tier.
2. Gear weighting - the matchmaking system will consider the gearscore of the player, only considering combat values (no interaction speed, etc.), and apply it to their overall hidden MMR. Full mid-greens may be considered neutral combat stats, and base kit would be negative score. The new MMR will be used to determine the lobby you queue into.
3. Win and Loss streaking - particularly for loss streaks (must have value lost and minimum lobby playtime), players should have a temporary MMR decrease to place them in lower tier lobbies until they start showing positive metrics again. (A strong player with base kit vs worse players with decent gear)
4. Other weight metrics might include: account age, playtime, map-specific MMR adjustments, boss kills, playstyle (looter vs bloodthirsty), and so on.

The matchmaking can be far more sophisticated to accomplish its purpose in the game while still having fun variety and being less abusable.

Overall, new players should score low on all of these weights, so their experience is better protected and much harder to abuse. Additionally, high tier players who enter a lobby with a base kit are not considered as strong, and therefore, are queued into a lobby a bit lower than usual.

[small ibex]

Sprint needs its duration buffed if it's just going to be an agility meta

[sharp cape]

id like to point out that magic missile is still the strongest close range option and its on one of the two range characters
it was so broken people were quiting and they reacted by nerfing the base damage by three
and then decided to add rolls of magic damage to the point where it can almost insta kill you again 💀

[small ibex]

personally i think the cast time needs to be increased

[sharp cape]

agreed, they need to HEAVILY nerf arcane mastery
with any gear at all invis and magic missile are practically insta cast, both of which make it IMPOSSIBLE to close the distance against a good wizard
there is not counterplay as a melee class, even barb who is supposed to counter them

[arctic flame]

No rolls on gerar found, enchanter merchant that will add a roll for X gold. with the small percent chance to destroy all enchantments on the gear item.

[neon tide]

Can we please remove the rolls on the multiclassing. I'm lvl 60 and literally have rolled nothing but useless abilities

[little basalt]

problems with gbmm is that the diff between bis green gear(and the fact everyone knows the gear ascore allows people to abuse it) and naked is worse then mid gear to full bis. There is currently 0 benefit to running anything above greens in the game as long as u can pve well (everyone can do all bosses naked). once you do run good gear in order to fight someone u realize that there are to many lobbys and queues that you end up being a trips team solo in hr( 5 runs in a row). You get the same loot while naked as while geared and there is 0 cost to just spam running naked runs.

[outer lotus]

upvoted!

[rich torrent]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/539385/make-otto-the-expressman

DOOOO EEEEET!!!

[meager jasper]

I agree, the categories are too wonky. I think overall equipment effectiveness still needs to be reduced between tiers, and that GBMM should be less overt to compensate. Maybe it should include a SBMM aspect as well?

[meager jasper]

In addition, accessories like healing and mining equipment absolutely shouldn't be contributing to GBMM, that's ridiculous. Bringing a pickaxe or lockpicks doesn't effect your combat effectiveness.

[limber dock]

fortune teller

[high garden]

Test server :D

[ripe turtle]

Multiclassing should have their own unique skills/perks/spells for each class that are fun, balanced and are not broken. In PvE, this system is amazing just like playing D&D with your buddies in a video game, I love it. In PvP, that's where the fun ends, that's where meta classes come and destroy everybody and unless you do certain builds, chances are your PvE adventures (boss runs, quests, objectives, norma runs etc) gonna suffer immensely too.

[meager jasper]

Agreed as well. It doesn't take a genius to figure out this is incredibly broken, destroys all class identity, and will result in a situation where only those who grind will have any kind of good overall class perks/etc. The devs seem to make these wildly experimental decisions without even thinking about them, and I just never agree with them to be honest. I'm still not okay with what they've done to map selection, but at least they're apparently going to walk that back for solos so we can actually do quests at some point.

[limber dock]

indeed, it's in the test server

[meager jasper]

For GBMM, obfuscating your category is also annoying. If the brackets were fair it wouldn't matter if you gamed them, so they should be transparent.

The fact they don't reveal your category or show gear score up front is tacit admission they know the system is nonsense and only vaguely categorizes gear.

[ripe turtle]

Multiclassing is okay if it's somehow balanced. But with the current perks/skills/spells is just not possible. If Ironmace going to restrict or penalize this system, people are gonna be mad about it because it will eventually gonna make it look bad if they have to either constantly nerf or remove perks/skills/spells from multiclassing system. My best suggestion would be to create a system with its own perks/skills/spells that you can control and leave the original ones as they are.

[meager jasper]

Yep, it would make more sense to have a specific Eldritch Knight set of spells that you can unlock by MCing into wizard as a fighter, for instance, that's more limited.

[ripe turtle]

for GBMM, I would LOVE to have QoL for gear score system. I wanna see how much points gear pieces give me and what is the total amount from entire gear including utilities.

[fallen seal]

50$ from steam
steamcommunity.com/gift/765610
@everyone

[tiny wigeon]

Scam, don’t fall for this link guys , your account will get stolen

[woven jackal]

Luckpicks. They're gold lockpicks, crafted only, giving 50 luck towards any chest they open

[tiny wigeon]

Just a heads up guys. Ironmace doesn’t read this channel, if you’re making a suggestion for them to read, you have to use their website.
This is the place to discuss the suggestions on the website.

Just letting you all know so you don’t waste your energy thinking this is the place for it.
I see a bunch of great suggestions but sadly this isn’t where you should send them.
If you want to suggest to ironmace then use https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/

Also , this isn’t my opinion, it’s how they said this channel is to be used. It’s weird, I don’t agree with it, but I just wanna share with you guys.

[limber dock]

well it's for people to upvote the suggestions of those who do share a link to their suggestion

if anyone's not sharing the link because they haven't made any suggestion, it's kinda on them

[tiny wigeon]

Yes I know what it’s for.
But a bunch of ppl seem to think they can come here and just drop a suggestion but in fact, that’s not how the system works, even though the channel name does suggest that

[limber dock]

welp it's not like a message will do much, it'd be good if any mods pinned a message though

[inland imp]

Hi! Gbmm is terrible for the health of the game! Okay bye!

[dark dust]

Highroller King of the Hill.
You can only go in with base kit/what you loot.
Do you want to stash the legendary gear you found or gamble and go back in for more?

No marketplace purchased kit.
No stashed items.

If you want to stash something that you've found then you have to start over.

[tiny wigeon]

Bro , I have never checked a channels pin messages, I reckon that does less then me casually sending a message about it every now and then

[sharp peak]

Make the dread hood something else. It is never worth making.

[limber dock]

if you wanna become a bot with a 30s cooldown then ok, but any way, at least people could easily tell anyone with a good suggestion "cool one, check the pins ans repost what you said later" if there was a pin

[elfin vale]

rename rogue to victim

[limber dock]

[tulip hill]

I'm confused as to what you mean
Would this be an infinite gamemode that people drop into? If so, how do new people find gear to contest whoever is the "king" of that lobby?

[crude osprey]

Hey yall, I can't get the mods over on the subbreddit to aprove my post, so for your entertainment and discussion I put to you my thoughts on the multiclassing system live on test after 40 hours of testing : https://youtu.be/KzF2dGOvXm8

[tall raptor]

The slow spell should give -action speed (like maybe 5%?) and - spellcasting speed like in d&d https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Slow#content

[outer lotus]

Upvote gentlemen, its necessary

[dusk fiber]

Would anyone like a maze/labyrinth map with Minotaur wandering boss? Sounded kinda cool in my head, so thought might as well post it here.

[undone dune]

my god a maze map with minotaur would go so hard

[outer lotus]

You gotta create the feature request in the website. Just stating that here will never get it added. Does sound pretty cool though

[dusk fiber]

AH, good point, tnx for suggesting it, made a suggestion, waiting for moderation!

[worldly locust]

having to kill specific classes is dumb in my opinion, because some classes are just not meant to kill others ex: trying to kill barbarians as a rouge. Also these kinds of quests aren't something you can just grind out, you just have to pray that you find 5 bards when no one is running bard right now. In the future it could be different, but you get the point.

[gaunt badger]

that's what happens when you assign 1 rando in your company to design quests and the only instructions you give them are "make the quests take like 2-3 months to complete"

[zenith wave]

Can we please get the Marketplace drop-down menus to auto-focus into the search field so we can immediately type?
Instead of having to do another action. The fewer actions players need to do the happier we are lmfao.

[fleet rune]

Can we please make quests per account so we don't need to repeat them when leveling alts for multiclassing? Or alternatively just keep the highest rep?

[pure summit]

Before that, add auto search for selling your items. When you select an item to sell, it auto fills all the characteristics of your item into search (item, rarity, attribute #1, #2, #3. etc.) — Maybe even add a recommended selling price based on previous items with similar stats that sold. — That way, selling items can be as quick as two clicks.

Buying should also allow you to search for multiple attributes and determine filter by range/value for each. (movespeed between 4 and 5, and movespeed bonus above 1%.)

Scrolling through page after page to find two specific stats is very tiring

[white spade]

in my humble opnion they intend not to make so easy to find the desired stats so all tho they put marketplace some of the old market vibes are still there but thats just my guess, honestly IM is so fkcing hard to understand sometimes i fell like they rather let the game die than actually improve it

[civic zodiac]

gear based matchmaking is not working. when i play solo with no gear i get empty lobby or not even lvl 15players. and when we play duo naked we get matched vs blue geared players with allstats and bis mainstats. that make 0 sense

[white spade]

and in lower pop servers youll mostly get solo lobbies or 1v1 lobbies cuz player base keeps on getting smaller since IM keeps on fcking up

[pure summit]

People will still scroll hundreds of pages to find what they want. They added the marketplace to make finding gear easier to essentially replace the old marketplace (except for uniques+). — Why would they intentionally make it more of a chore to find what you're looking for, that's just cheap design tactics.

But, for what? A more immersive/clunky/time-consuming marketplace experience? That's not worth the time it takes to research pieces and sell them, and/or buy them when I could be playing the actual game. — Why not just add in actual immersion content like a pub where you can hang out and play medieval board games, guild hall, etc. if that's their goal.

[white spade]

well in my opnion thats what they wanted lol, u to scroll through and in the process see other itens that might suit you or not instead of just not seeing them at all. All tho as i said i dont tihnk its smart or even good, i honestly have many many doubts about IM choices, main reason being the drop of 3/5 of game pop since the begining of early access, SA servers used to have people and now u get 5/6 solo lobbies for each 1 lobbie that has a fight. IM doesnt seem to care about players well being or sensation of being listened to they seem to onlty care about making the tests they want and data gathering cuz they probably tihnk the game cant die since it has survived the law suit and everything it has already. But in my opnion theyve been slowly killing the game for months now. One perfect example for is the marketplace that was asked for MONTHS before it came out and it come out pretty badly desinged. Im a dev myself and honestly marketplace is by far one of the easiest thinks theyve done (when considering big changes). Unfortunately we can only watch and try being active with our opnion in hopes IM will change the way theyre handling their priorities. Im pretty sure that the constant stat changes on itens bring in much less players then it drives away, and those are changes that can be made ANYTIME, otherwise theyve promissed many things that are not even close to being released, and they keep masking the absence of work on their side with those Silly stupid changes in stats. All tho i do like the matchmaking change based on item, ratings for example it doesnt work properly in low pop servers, to stay playing i have to play at virginia even tho i get 170ping there and being hard as fuck to hit any ranged attacks cuz otherwise there is just no game.

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[dusky ingot]

man i sure do love how falchion magically has longer range than the longsword, and everyone abuses it, such a fun gameplay design

[frigid current]

if you're going to adjust the matchmaking like this, you'd need to adjust the ranking system accordingly

you'd be potentially matching wanderer players into similar hidden MMR brackets, even if they're better players than a bracket of noobs in demigod

[acoustic pagoda]

Please increase the drop rate of Wendigo Sharp Claws I have found more Frozen Hearts than I have Sharp Claws and needing 12 is insane. Less Grindy btw

[unkempt oriole]

Give us akimbo hand crossbow

[gilded ether]

Just had a genius idea! Make skill tree one branch per actual classes, each learning tokens unlocks a tiny boost related to that class branch. For example my cleric unlock 1st fighters branch skill, sprint, which gives 2% ms, then throw mastery, which unlocks knives and frans. It would solve multiclass AND skill tree!

[tulip hill]

You know, that actually reminds me of Path of Exile's "skill tree"
in that game, there is one massive web full of small passive boosts
the class you pick determines where you start on that web, hypothetically any class can build for any playstyle
but lets say you want to summon a ton of minions; the Witch class starts right next to a bunch of minion perks so they don't have to waste as many points traveling across the web for them
not sure how well that would translate over though, since each perk or skill in dark and darker is massively impactful while most nodes in Path of Exile are rather small stat bonuses

[high garden]

Sounds great tbh

[tiny wigeon]

Just a heads up guys. Ironmace doesn’t read this channel, if you’re making a suggestion for them to read, you have to use their website.
This is the place to discuss the suggestions on the website.

Just letting you all know so you don’t waste your energy thinking this is the place for it.
I see a bunch of great suggestions but sadly this isn’t where you should send them.
If you want to suggest to ironmace then use https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/

Also , this isn’t my opinion, it’s how they said this channel is to be used. It’s weird, I don’t agree with it, but I just wanna share with you guys.

[craggy hill]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/546376/delete-wizard-from-the-game-or-split-it-for-different-classes

[strong grotto]

Rename yourself to whimper. Parrot also will be fitting.
Oh. And learn to play class.

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[soft nebula]

there has GOT to be some move speed changes because this is unbeLIEVABLE that barbarians can still be as fast as they are with so much hp. this is SO fuckin bullshit

[kind cave]

Who else is enjoying a 199 gear bracket twink meta because the game lost all conceivable players, and value, of playing the game? Same Ironmace that wanted to give everyone free Creep and make headshots 200% damage. Will multi classing be the kill shot to the game? Because this matchmaking system has put it on life support

[craggy hill]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/546376/delete-wizard-from-the-game-or-split-it-for-different-classes

[outer lotus]

Upvote gentlemen

[glacial sphinx]

lmao dont post suggestions after you just died it always ends up with pointless stuff like this

[craggy hill]

Another low skill. dont talk to me pls

[glacial sphinx]

im not the one struggling mate

[craggy hill]

i can see wiz icon on you idiot

[glacial sphinx]

don't worry i wont hurt you

[craggy hill]

and i can see that you cant read and dont have basic education 😦

[glacial sphinx]

Course I dont, all wizards have studied the arcane intently. My education is quite advanced

[light hound]

I believe this weighted system accounts for that:

Say we have noobs in demigod (they rat-looted a ton - assuming IM wants to keep a loot-centric adventurer rank) - some simiplified numbers could be
Adventurer Rank + 6 Weight (Demigod)
Gear Rank + 3 (Lets assume decent-ish gear accounted for by a smaller weight modifier than Adventurer Rank)
Extract rate + 3 (high extract rate gradually pushes the lobby difficulty up)
PVP MMR - 2+ (Assuming their barely fighting, but losing when they do)

Total for Demigod noobs: +9~ (pretty high tier lobby)

What a Wanderer would need to match into the same lobby:
Adventurer Rank + 2 (Wanderer)
Gear Rank + 4 (8+/10 gear)
Extract rate +0 (likely way more PVP and significantly worse extract rate)
PVP MMR +4 (high KDA against similar PVP MMRs)

Total for Wanderer PVP Machine: +10

Although this could definitely be refined for avoiding specific conditions causing weird scores - it's a much better direction than all AR, or all GS

On the other hand - what about a new player who sucks at PVP and is struggling to extract?
AR + 0
GS - 2 (base kit)
ER - 1
PVP - 2

Now they're in the easiest lobbies (-5)

[west coral]

i think they should make it so quests and stashes are linked with every class and make more stash space and also make the first few ones cheaper

[upbeat dust]

multiclassing might be a vary bad idea in current state it was fun for a bit but for multiple reasons it needs more time in the oven maybe even scraped till all the classes come out each new class added will break the structure in so many new undiscoverd ways

[light hound]

It doesn't seem like they went through every perk systematically and made sure they're working as intended. There are so many perks that just don't work with anything other than the original classes weapons etc.

It's kind of lame at the moment for that reason - not much creativity allowed if nothing works (like I tested crippling shot and flamewalk and that also doesn't work)

Included with that, the multiclassing seems to go too far - it can completely change a class - all perks and skills can be different. In other words, the only thing that sets the classes apart in the mid-late game is simply base stat allocation, and maybe some class-exclusive armor types.

[kind cave]

have you seen wizard with longsword? t-pose is great

[limber elbow]

email verification CAN ONLY USE NUMBER BUT OP9LQa MEAN WTF IF YOU CAN'T TYPE ?????

[brazen token]

As much as I love quests that require killing specific classes that haven't shown up in the same games as me in days or even weeks, can we just...not?

[outer lotus]

What u need? Bards? Warlocks? Wizards? Go into low roller crypts as solo and just try to rush one and kill one, legit havent had any issues with the kill quests

[brazen token]

Barbarians, weirdly enough. I got fighter kills easily, but I never see barbarians, regardless of what map I'm running.

[outer lotus]

Crypts ull find it all brother

Even if you die after killing them, u still got the kill, easy

[brazen token]

That's the hope, but I've been on this quest awhile now, and they're unicorn-level rarity. Ive seen every other class plenty. The worst part is the other quests are locked behind it, so I can't just do something else for the leather merchant

[ripe yoke]

Will the smite nerf still work with the magic damage?

[chrome gale]

let every mode be played as 3v3 with 3 floors would be super cool

[proven fulcrum]

Suggestion: Stick to what you say. ''We will tune spells when taken through multi-class, but we want to presserve class indentity'' >> nerfs baseline cleric spells TO THE GROUND cause they would be too good when multiclassing. LAZY as fuck approach. Understandable, but just another kick in the butt to clerics.

[idle plover]

the majority is already against the multiclass it is a dictatorship of developers, we are guinea pigs and in addition pay for it is a shame!!!

[thick sky]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/546421/if-multiclassing-is-to-be-in-the-game-please-make-adjustments-to-the-system

tl;dr mutliclassed perks and skills should be nerfed when used by other classes, so that they aren't meta. multiclass shouldnt be meta, it should be a side option for fun. as it is, every rogue is going to take smite, even though it doesnt scale. smite is strong on rogue because of fast hits, not because of magic power scaling

[lapis iris]

This ^

[thick sky]

i cant believe they nerfed divine prot and smite for all... because multiclass, nerf cleric.. seems good

[dull sinew]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/482571/add-milk-to-the-game

[limber dock]

Of course, let's not actually do something good like nerfing the numbers just a bit for all perks if multiclassed

[thick sky]

ideally all skills would be balanced individually, but my perspective is that we should start with multiclassing from a place of ALL being worse than your current selection from your own class. I feel the skills and perks have been balanced around classes, and their drawbacks. now it will be meta to pick skills and perks which help to avoid the drawbacks of your main class

tl;dr multiclass should be objectively a self-nerf, sub-optimal, but still fun and interesting so some people would do it

[indigo grail]

Recommendation for the game, DO NOT IMPLEMENT MULTICLASSING OR GEAR BASED MATCHMAKING, it’s just gonna ruin the game. Firstly multiclassing ruins class identity and will create the most broken metas that’ll cause people to consider suicidal thoughts, secondly gear based matchmaking will cause people to care way less about gear and will effectively help gear lock low rank players. These shouldn’t be added to the game at all costs.

[late star]

Things Ironmace could release instead of Multiclassing:
-A quest Log.
-ice map boss
-druid
-an actual friends list. (Ingame messaging system and able to add players from ingame names)
-Classes with more builds and more viable abilities. Wizard Meditation/Spell memory im looking at you.
-auto fill duo and trio queue for normals ( disable friendly fire for auto fill HR to prevent team kill griefers) Whats karma for, if not to use it on strangers? +rep
-solo queue on all maps.
-Tutorial mode for new players
-PvP Arena
-Guilds / Guild hall
-Training hall
-new maps
-New classes
-new weapons
-New armor
-new monsters
-goblin girls
-exciting limited time game modes /community events ( 5v5, capture the flag)

[indigo grail]

I like that you added goblin girls

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[frozen scaffold]

Camping mastery on Ranger is pretty much useless, what if the perk gave you a campfire to start with and you got 3 uses out of the 1 “special” campfire. And any campfire you use not only last longer but also gave you (and teammates) a “buff” after using the campfire. The longer you sit at campfire the longer your buff would last. Could be something as simple as a PVE buff but atleast with would be something.

[mossy sorrel]

I think gear based matchmaking is something that needs to happen only if this game makes a breakthrough in playercount. For the playerbase we have now it only makes dead lobbies. Multiclassing is definitely in a very big test phase this hotfix but I really think it can work great if its adapted in a much more finite way. 2 tokens for perks and 5 tokens for skills/spells would probably be somewhere in the line of not breaking the game and making it always feel refreshing.

[jovial swan]

Allow me to post several ideas I know would actually put the game in a direction everyone would become happier with.

{Two Gamemode Options}

The option to play Normal and High Roller maps is replaced. In its stead, players can now play on two select gamemode options that will put them into two separate servers: Standard and Hardcore.

[Standard]
This version of the game is similar to the current one we have, with the following differences:
-Players will no longer lose any gear they come into the map with below Epic Rarity; they can still lose gear if they drop their items, the items are in their inventory, if the items are newly equipped or are of Epic rarity or higher.
-All bosses have reduced health and strategies akin to their Normal variants.
-All quests have reduced completion methods and are available as soon as you start the character.
-This gamemode does not feature a Wipe or a Trade System. Players must trade in lobbies or dungeons.
-This gamemode allows for up to 15 stashes to be purchased or earned by questing. Costs are also reduced.

[Hardcore]
This version of the game is the exact same as the current version, but with the following differences:
-Normal, Elite and Nightmare versions of mobs can appear on all maps.
-This is the only version of the game where you can earn seasonal rewards, some of which are very significant rewards you don't want to miss out on.
-When a wipe occurs, you have the option to transfer any item you want from your wiped character to your non-Hardcore character at any time, in case you have some special items you want to preserve.

{Endgame Collapse}

This system replaces the Dark Swarm system completely in applicable maps to incentivize exploration and more strategic plays:
-All matches now have a base timer of 20 minutes.
-Once this timer ends, the dungeon will begin to collapse over the course of 2 minutes.
-For every two seconds you remain in the dungeon, you lose 2% HP.
-Once this timer is up, all remaining players in a dungeon will be killed by the dungeon's collapse.

[frozen scaffold]

Make any type of utility damage items (axes, knives, torches, drums, explosive bottles, etc) a flat damage and not scale with stats.

[jovial swan]

For examples of Hardcore rewards you wouldn't want to miss out on, they would include:
-Pets (which while amazing for cosmetic purposes, will be disadvantageous to run)
-Player Cards
-Emblems
-Name Colors (reserved for the best of the best)
-Titles
-Enemy/Player Statues (reserved for players who achieved goals; permanent unlocks for your own tavern; others can see it when coming into your tavern)

And also one more change that I'd add for Standard is that all classes have quintuple the health they have in Standard than they would in Hardcore.

[tulip hill]

if they did that, they'd need to increase the base damage of explosive bottles, 3 magic damage per second for the ground fire is not enough to dissuade people

[flint blaze]

Give Otto a hitbox

[small furnace]

Suggestion: Actually fix bugs that appear on the test server before you shove something into live.

[feral shadow]

NON-NATIVE PERKS/ABILITIES/SPELLS NEED A DISADVANTAGE/WEAKNESS APPLIED

[outer dove]

Spell memory should give access to spellcasting focuses lol

[limber dock]

no

[sharp cape]

ANNOUNCE THE FIXES YOU DO DEVS JESUS CHRIST I JUST LOST A 10K KIT TO SOMEBODY WALKING THROUGH A CRACK THAT USED TO BE TOO SMALL

[ember basin]

fix the first quest for fortune teller to either give more or be doable at low levels again

[mystic spruce]

Anyone having an issue on warlock? I cannot use spells with the spell memory (warlock spell memory) on my warlock the only multiclassing i have on is Dagger Master and Lock/Trap Picking

[forest tundra]

Why is the test server on an older version than the main server? haha

[crimson perch]

I have a suggestion, Seeing the ready status of your team regardless of what tab you are on

[cunning gorge]

Hire new decision makers plz

[cunning gorge]

Good post

[silver yoke]

take away this multiclasing bull shit its garbage

[stray kindle]

make multi classing perks way weaker, this is way too broken. the test server was made to test things and fix balance issues before they go to live, all you did is give us a taste of it and release it as is with no nerfs to insane perks like ambush and weapon mastery

[orchid current]

While we have this "meta" of multiclassing in game increase the XP to literally 20x or more of its current rate. Let people build their nutty custom classes quickly while it is still in the game. I don't forsee it staying and the current grind to unlock tokens is WAY too slow. Just let people go wild with it while we have it.

[jagged fjord]

Suggestion: Account-wide emote and cosmetic equipping

[sullen heart]

get rid of needing to level a class to 30 to multiclass it, its so miserable having to play a class you dont like because if you dont you'll be at a disadvantage

[lament sequoia]

Most fun ever ... thank you ironmace

[toxic forge]

Being without multiclassing vs people that have it just isn't fun enough go make me want to grind it. If its going to be in the game it needs to be more accessible.

[dry glacier]

Yeah you'd think to test a system in an early access version of the game they would just make everyone max level to easily find bugs and balance issues but nahh

[atomic yacht]

unnerf lute and flute damage... only drums needed nerfs

[quick shell]

get rid of rogues for pickpocket exploit lol

[unreal elk]

yeah, rogues pickpocketing your weapons off you in lobby is toxic, i'm sure it was an error.. but needs to be fixed asap

[tulip hill]

Hell yeah
I can't think of a single reason why someone would want a different emote wheel on each character, that just seems strange

[lament sequoia]

Rogues can pickpocket in lobies

they took all our armor in lobies

@keen onyx Rogues are pickpocketing armor and stuff in lobies

[rigid prairie]

havent played in ages, is drum barbarian a thing again?

[wet dock]

Isn't it time to improve how things run internally? How many more times are you going to post something like #📢announcements message

How many more URGENT hotfixes are you going to deploy for patches that were poorly tested in the first place?

[civic zodiac]

Imagine pickpocketing in lobby XD

[meager jasper]

They should stop treating the test server as a place to purely experiment one thing at a time, and actually use it to test patch builds. That's the real point of such a thing for most other devs. Not that they seemed to come to any real conclusions with their so-called experiment in the first place. I strongly think they just put the test server there because they were forced to when they realized they promised one.

Also agreed, we need more xp. This shouldn't be a test for how quickly multiclassing is gained, it should be a test of whether multiclassing is OP. Generally I disagree with locking core mechanics behind long grinds either way - and this is definitely that.

[small furnace]

Wasn't poorly tested actually!

We found a lot of those bugs on the test server, they just decided not to fix them even after they were discovered and reported.

There was also a bug that prevented you from seeing people's gear in lobby so the pickpocket bug couldn't be uncovered there.

Wasn't poorly tested at all, they just didn't care enough to act on anything and prevent these bugs from making it to live.

Check out this channel to see most of the bugs that made it in being reported and ignored: https://discord.com/channels/988365908009447485/1214939921488543774

[meager jasper]

They have a tendency to leave things in the game they know are there in favour of new features. For many many months. I appreciate their enthusiasm but their priorities are a bit all over the place.

[small furnace]

To be clear, we are talking about game-breaking bugs such as shadowtouch+overheal giving permanent overhealing and draining someone's health by 1% when hit by it until they are dead.

There is simply no excuse to leave things in like this that have been reported.

[meager jasper]

I know, but that isn't the only exploit that has existed for a decent length of time. Two barbarians used to be able to remove all physical damage from their opponents by shouting at them real hard, and that was there for several patches if I recall.

They totally don't care if a game-breakingly strong misbalance exists so long as it's not being used a lot.

[small furnace]

Right, but my point is that there is ZERO excuse this time.

They used the test server. Is the point of the test server not to test and find these bugs so you can fix them before they go to live? We discovered these bugs, we reported these bugs... they had the opportunity to hold the patch until they fixed them. They chose not to.

[meager jasper]

Indeed, that's basically my point as well. There's very little quality control and an extreme amount of enthusiasm for just getting the "new thing" of the moment out.

There's been some sort of big failure with a majority of patches, for no good reason, for a while now. Not always balance-related, but always something.

[gilded ether]

Just had a genius idea! Make skill tree one branch per actual classes, each learning tokens unlocks a tiny boost related to that class branch. For example my cleric unlock 1st fighters branch skill, sprint, which gives 2% ms, then throw mastery, which unlocks knives and frans. It would solve multiclass AND skill tree! Take 2, i hope the devs see this

[quartz jungle]

Please remove Gear Based Matchmaking it is completely ruining the game.

[lone plaza]

get rid of, OR if the community is so adamant about having it, add gear based matchmaking to normals; revert highroller matchmaking to the two ranking brackets. HR should be a risk for the best loot in the game, not go in naked vs other naked players. Additionally playing HR with any level of equipment results in most your lobbies being empty. TY !

Also get rid of multiclassing! 😁 We have test servers for a reason, the test server players have vocally pushed back against multi-classing stating that if released in its current state, it will ruin the entire feel of the game. Instead of listening to your players and using the test servers for what its for, you push a half-baked product thats going to be nearly impossible to balance onto the community.

[civic zodiac]

Gbmm is full of flaw. If u go naked with rings and ammy green with luck u get matched vs naked but u get 250 luck to start with ...

[lone plaza]

Yeah, either get rid of it entirely, or relegate it to normals. Wouldn't mind it on norms, would be good for newish players to learn bosses with less risk. Would also mean if you did queue it in BIS, and other people were BIS queueing it, you don't have to lose ranking for wiping the enemy team and extracting with their BIS. Probably one of the more frustrating things is winning a fight, taking their loot and then seeing -700 on the after game screen lol

[civic zodiac]

thats why i never gone for pvp on my bard and abused of being naked with luck stuff so everything i loot and wear is extra ap... kinda the only viable way to get demigod but its so lame to never being able to pvp unless you wanna regret losing 1-2 hour of progress just for having fun....

gear based matchmaking render gear 100% useless unless being demigod or streamer, being penalised to loot players is very dumb even if abusable its better to deal with abuser than making pvp in a pvp game being a penalty instead of being part of it. but well knowing IM* in 2 month the game will be completly changed to the point we wont recognise it so... only a matter of change before these dumb mechanic is out.

[mellow crown]

need 2 more perk slot and choose 1 perk in 5 row

[strong grotto]

Not remove, rework. We need some kind of system to separate sweats from normies.

[civic zodiac]

problem is. with GBMM gear is rendered useless it ruin the core purpose of the game. GBMM should be the normal mode and highroller should be rank based matchmaking and it would be fine

[quartz jungle]

Yeah it needs removing matching people up based on gear score completely undermines the entire point of the game being loot based. People are meant to be at different power levels. "Normies" can and do play normals where its a level playing field

[mellow crown]

KDA and escape rate mach makking better then GBM

[civic zodiac]

they would never do that. it would make streamer life a nightmare so they would lose visibility so ruining players experience to gain visibility is always been devs way to go

tbf perfect balance dont exist. but normal being GBMM would not be too bad. while HR being it is destroying the whole purpose of the game. why to brg gear when you can fight vs naked. who care about looting chest and players if we will go naked anyway so why to need gold outside francisca and healing things. that just dont work

what could change the vision of looting is if we can have arena with and without gear loot and also with possibility to place bets. would brg back value to gear

[dense wing]

Can they start playtesting on a small level the newer patches? Like please

[civic zodiac]

tbf its hard to test a game like that on a small scale. what they are doing annoy and pissoff every1 but its kinda the best way to gather statistic and balancing in order to get a clean release. if they release the game and keep this shit like that theres way to complain but rn i think its better to let them to their annoying testing shit in hope it get results.

[dense wing]

oke

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[strong grotto]

Because instead of gear being a ticket to higher and harder gameplay it is made as power amplifier against your fellow players.

If, as example, in order to enter X map to fight some lich-demigod-annihilator-random moniker boss and pillage his golden pile for Y amount of rewards, rank and place in the Hall of Fame forever and ever you required Z amount of Gear Score - then it would work. Because then, people would aim at specific score FOR REASON, and not just to min-max their power output. YOu would still have one boss with multiple teams on map, you would still have the same PvP and PvE, but in order to even GET to that specific map and that specific reward you would need that gear score.

[civic zodiac]

i would not be against a higher tier map that only available to peoples with high gear score. would spice things up

[strong grotto]

Exactly.

It is the same thing with normal and HR lobbies and you being allowed to chose your starting kit. I was telling about them for a long time and it was, eventually, introduced into the game. Same with the gear score. This exact attempt is bad, it really is, but if it will become your "pass" to a higher level of rewards on more difficult adn more rewarding maps - them it will work. We just have to wait and voice our opinions.

[civic zodiac]

i would say. a lazy fix would be to put a multiplier of ap* with a static reward depending on ur score that entirely depend on the gear set value. like naked get basic bonus while a full gold/legendary might get a 2x multiplier. with a static reward of maybe 10% of ur total AP earning during the game.

[strong grotto]

As example. You begin your new NORMAL castle map. The same that leads to Hell. But! In order for you to GET to Hell you will need to raise your gear score to X level. Of course you can simply FIND that gear on map... But who stops you from TAKING it from the others? This change, when put in place, would promote not only PvP, but also reward you for that and grant you access to a higher level of PvE and its rewards. I really can't understand how devs are blind to this simple fix. But then, again, it took them a whole year to implement something I've told them after playing mere month, lol!

[civic zodiac]

doing that unsuccesfull peoples would be blocked or very restrain to endgame content and will complain also that a problem.

[strong grotto]

Ever played Dark Souls or souls genre in general? GIT GUT.
You can either become better at PvP or at PvE and ratting. It doesn't matter what as long as you are getting better. Hells, I hate PvP in general and was REALLY afraid of it in this game for a long time. Now? Now I will be first to agitate my whole team towards some boot noice I've heard in the room to the West, lol! Yeah, I may fail and we may all die. But I don't even care about it, because I've gotten "GIT GUT" enough to simply absorb the fail, learn from it and adapt. Not even sure if I lose more, than win now...

[civic zodiac]

maybe they will eventually test something like that who know everyweek a new mystery test mechanic getting released 🤣

[strong grotto]

Besides, you are making THE mistake of looking for "mystical wider audience" for a NICHE GENRE OF FPS gaming. This game is extraction PvPvE "shooter". And it isn't fit for everyone. Only for those, who think of it as game they like. So make the game for YOUR audience first and foremost.

[blazing trout]

Git gud is for souls games, because of their game design. dark and darker is a dungeon extraction crawler.. shooter?? my man... lemme load my quarterstaff real Quick, hold my mags 😂

[strong grotto]

1. "GIT GUD" is for everything. You want success? GIT GUD in your trade. Same with gaming.

2. But you DO require to shoot things USING your staff. Crossbows and bows are also a thing. Don't forget the ranged meta is a thing. ALSO - I've incased shooter with quotes, because no matter your desire of seeing me as stupid, I am not. And this game's genre is the "action extraction player vs player vs environment shooter with magic set in medieval-ish setting with DnD based class system". So instead of that mouthful I've condensed it.

[alpine bramble]

so when tf is rollback?

[worn lava]

I think the current direction the game is going is downhill. I think the changes they are doing are downhill. I've heard a comment before I thought actually made sense. Take away the stats on the gear and make all the stats on gear fit directly towards PVE so it doesn't add anything to PVP and have PVP be 100% balanced that way gear diff completely removed from the equation then that issue is completely eradicated then You could probably make more intriguing, more interesting PVE fights instead of putting a huge amount of effort into finding some solution for a lot of these issues with gear and stats I highly doubt you would go that way though you putting way too much time in the opposite direction why do a 180 you devs should watch TheSpudHunter on YouTube for advice

[elfin vale]

rename rogue to victim (multiclassing is lame and everyone just takes sprint, it enhanced the ranged/throwable meta)

[worn lava]

I agree with the frustration. This man is expressing with ranged throwable meta I think it's stupid wizard got nerfed even though its projectiles are harder to hit and you can't spam it. But throwables are easier do more damage at times and you can spam a lot Even ranger is closer to spamming since wizard has a huge cast time and is completely useless. Close quarter, especially with the speed meta

[quaint ivy]

Multiclass ruins the game, that's all.

[worn lava]

Rework the stats on gear instead of them going towards PVP completely remove that and just make stats for PVE cuz with multi-classing that is going to be tremendous work figuring and fixing so let's have PVE stats and have PVP super fair and fun among players gear diff completely removed. Multi-classing can only work if you remove PVP stats on gear You're just going to be wasting time. Trying to figure out how to manage all that with having many things overpowered cuz of multi-classing

[cerulean pollen]

Devs just a hate boner for wizard cause none of them play the class and just get mad when one rolls them

[pearl mortar]

Just disable the rogue perk while waiting for a long term fix maybe ?

[worn lava]

I wished you devs would focus more on mini bosses main bosses. Different types of enemies and maps creating more cooler dungeon delving experiences instead of this PVP dog water balancing issue created ever since you guys kept creating different PVP stats on gear creating this huge balancing mess y'all need to study cycle frontier and why that game died The changes you are making remove the desire for gear perhaps PVE gear and PVP balanced should have been your approach from the beginning of the game

[somber bobcat]

multiclass will ruin the game

[cobalt belfry]

Fix the game, people are pickpocketing items from lobbies.... Close the servers and do an update

[tulip venture]

They are read the announcements

[worn lava]

Simple solution. All extra stats on gear you get from higher rarity shall be directed towards PVE. Nothing boost PVP on gear anymore devs will then focus more on map. Mobs weapons, perks skills. Spells songs races different classes The rank system could stay but gear based matchmaking removed skill-Based matchmaking removed You would simply grind. Rank to flex and get cooler rewards at the end of the season The arena mode would be completely balanced. Not a mess multi-classing could stay It wouldn't be a headache to balance if removing PVP based stats on gear The point to get gear would be to do better in PvE and the named items could have all the same effects The stick could still spawn a gas cloud and the others could still do their thing that wouldn't be overpowered

[worn lava]

Agility Max health Max health bonus. Physical damage bonus. Physical power magical power magical damage bonus dex and the rest should be removed and replaced replace with new ones on gear and weapons directed to PVE

[tall raptor]

please remove +additional damage or limit it to +1 on one slot like capes or pendants

having people run upwards of +8 additional makes the potential differential for TTK too high. GBMM is fine, but is a band-aid solution to the real problem: gear balance

[sharp peak]

I feel that character identity is lost on multispec. A stealthed rogued with Longsword and recurve bow seems like a loss imo... Let's see how the rest of the season goes for the heck of it.

I don't see the issue with talent trees to spec into. Seems like it would fit into this a lttle better

[outer dove]

Hey could we get access to a spellbook at least when we gain access to spell memorisation? that would be insanely great

[stray briar]

weapon mastery my friend

[ripe turtle]

Weapon Mastery in multiclassing is just too much. Rogues running with dual wield perks and swords and barbarian shouts to slaughter people with no counter measurements whatsoever.

[outer dove]

Weapon mastery shouldnt be a requirement for EVERYTHING in the game, By exemple Sword mastery perk, dont give you access to them, Dagger mastery neither. should simply link a spellbook to it, not a crystal or a staff, so you cant actualy go cheese the f up

[stray briar]

it’s almost, ALMOST, like over half the classes aren’t meant to be spell casters

[ripe turtle]

I want multiclassing to work, but I don't want class identity completely erased from the game. I don't like the whole Elden Ring approach here. EDIT: There are also other classes that haven't been impleted yet to the game! It feels like a waste if people are just gonna play that particular class just to get particular skills/perks to other "meta classes". That would be a huge blow to DaD gameplay.

[rich sky]

does anyone have a link to as of how the hr gbmm actually works?

[vagrant nebula]

Random Suggestion: increase Monster and Player Kill XP - but also scaling player kill xp with player rank

this will encourage higher level players to seek out higher level players to fight - also increase speed of scaling at high level play - could be an issue

way to fix is relative scaling player-to-player

[tulip hill]

Pretty sure player kills don't grant any XP right now, though they do grant AP based on rank last I checked

[toxic forge]

This, so much this. +DMG is the main issue with this games TTK, and its the main roll being abused in GBMM.

[forest tundra]

UPDATE THE TEST SERVER

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[hoary timber]

rangers should get poisoned weapon 😦

[outer lotus]

U can

[hoary timber]

nah it dont work

[outer lotus]

We need this 🔥

[teal tundra]

please no multiclass ! please let me solo every dungeon ! thank you ❤️

[tulip venture]

It works just fine and as intended

[hoary timber]

nah not really

[forest tundra]

UPDATE THE TEST SERVER TO THE CURRENT VERSION.

Seriously, why is the test server on an earlier version of the main? why isnt the test server just 1 week ahead of the main server? super weird. If it was then maybe many of these bugs wouldnt have needed a rollback

[agile scroll]

NEW PLAYER EXPERIENCE
Can use the gear they find before level 20 ❌
Can do any kind of trade at all before level 20 ❌
Can complete the first quest they get before level 20 ❌
Can get dumpstered by a phatomized adrenalined Slayer Rogue before level 20 ✅
Druid
Ruins
Solo que on all maps
Built-out game with established and balanced class identity
Cute Goblin girls
RNG multiclassing system that takes away the point of classes and takes an eternity to grind & GBMM system which doesn't belong in an extraction game, empty lobbies and back to the drawing board with yo-yo patches, server issues, rollbacks and prime-time update downtime?

[tulip hill]

Cleric already has several perks and a couple skills with cross iconography, so I feel it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to wield a cross or other holy symbol. How do we feel about about Cleric having some kind of off hand spell focus? A sort of mirror to the Warlock/Wizard's crystal ball, perhaps with a small amount of innate magical healing as apposed to magic/weapon damage like the other spell focuses

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[tulip hill]

5e's clerics get a light crossbow, which is more in line with DaD's normal crossbow, not the hand crossbow
Dungeons and Dragons aside, I find it more strange that wizard can use the crossbow than clerics not being able to

[worn lava]

Pls devs I beg of you take the advice I laid out remove all the stats on gear we currently have replace them with PvE stats make pvp fair make soon to be released arena mode super fair by removing magic power physical power max health and all the rest you make multi-classing super fair then remove skill based matchmaking and gear base matchmaking there would be no need for it after these changes we would still have desire to find gear cuz of extra armor higher grade provides and they'd have new PvE stats you could create a way cooler dungeon delving experiences with mobs and mini bosses main bosses could focus less on balancing and class nerfs and more on everything else we'd still love to rank up for cool rewards and show off our cool ranks and flex you could focus more on the class itself and its perks and skills spells and songs lets not make this game die pls

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[versed root]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/546670/add-xp-potions

upvote xp potions!! ^^^^

[tulip hill]

either way, using Dungeons and Dragons as a reference point isn't a bad idea, but there are very notable differences between the two games. For example, in 5e, both barbarian and fighter can use just about any weapon they come across, yet in Dark and Darker that is not innately true and requires a fighter perk to match that

I've said it before, but wizard already has viable ranged attacks, and given who does and doesn't have access to the crossbow, I see no reason why a wizard does

[boreal kiln]

The new multiclass is awful, the gear based matchmaking is awful, the map system is awful. Bring back ruins, bring back regular rank based matchmaking and give us solo queue on any map again. That would at least be a step in the right direction

[dusky pike]

^ This

[tulip hill]

I see people complain about pretty empty lobbies, and while improving the quality of the game will have more people play for more hours, I'm not sure it will bring in enough traffic to fill 2 additional queues

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[boreal kiln]

The empty lobbies are a result of the shitty gear based matchmaking. There’s a restriction of not only a matching rank when you queue up but also of a gear score.
If that’s such a concern they could let a higher/lower rank be matched in a lobby to fill it

[winged pulsar]

They need to just go back to playtest 2 gameplay but add quests and non multi class gameplay trees

Drop all the specific matchmaking, let classes all be busted and fun again, stop this nonsense that has been slowly creeping into the game

[tulip hill]

mechanically, maybe not, but thematically it doesn't fit the cleric
cleric is restricted to purely blunt weapons with only things like the morningstar blurring that line
perhaps they could introduce something like the bolas used by the goblins as a ranged option available to clerics
a longer windup than the axes or knives, but perhaps a longer slow on them to compensate

[tulip hill]

fair point, the current GBMM does split HR into 3 queues already

[tulip hill]

and actually, now that I think about it, Hunt Showdown as a neat solution to a similar problem
in that game, you can opt out of Trios being in your game, so essentially the game is split into two different queues
there is also an MMR system but I'm unsure how much influence it has

[chrome gale]

add carry weight and slight move speed penelty for going over it based on str when inventory system changes

[boreal kiln]

All I know is when I last played a lot a few months ago there wasn’t any dead lobbies and the game was much more fun with solo queue available on any map (or at least with rotations). Now with all these unnecessary changes it seems there are only more problems and less fun for most people

[chrome gale]

i would enjoy trio goblin caves and ice mountain especially with 2 floors on each

[zealous zenith]

Since the cleric in this game is like the old school D&D cleric, being able to use only blunt weapons; the typical ranged weapon option for clerics would be a sling.

[tulip hill]

I will say, as someone who didn't actually mind dying to gear diff, I have very little attachment to GBMM
on top of people gaming the system since it only looks at the rarity of gear and not the rolls, I do think it would be best it was removed

[tulip hill]

oh so true! I forgot that was a thing
and honestly the fact that such a weapon would need a good amount of space to fire would make it an interesting alternative

[chrome gale]

could shift though the debris that makes noise for pebbles

[zealous zenith]

Oh, I didn't even think of that aspect to it. You're right, it would be interesting that we'd have a ranged weapon that can in fact bonk on the wall while swinging if you are not careful.

[tulip hill]

and I don't image it would take up much inventory space since its essentially just a couple feet of braided leather straps
would make for a really low commitment ranged weapon

[tulip hill]

I find it funny that you can use a longbow while crawling through a tunnel

[chrome gale]

i ment for the slings ammo

[tulip hill]

yeah, I know
but the ammo would only take up a space and the sling it self I'd imagine only takes 2 slots, so this would be something you could keep in your inventory until you need it

[boreal kiln]

Yes exactly, I don’t think anyone minded dying to gear diff, that’s the whole point of the game. They’re trying to turn high roller to normals. If someone is worried about gear diff some much they can play normals

[worn lava]

Just remove physical power physical damage bonus max health Max health bonus dex agility magical power magic damage bonus armor pen magic pen and the rest I missed remove them all these buffs and create brand new PvE ones to take it's place ok make pvp fair around the board then no need for so many of these changes and nerfs multi-classing would be doable then

[chrome gale]

yea but finding more ammo in barrels would seem weird would be cool if the you had to loot the floor that makes noise for the ammo and you could clear it out if you collect it all so the floor wont make sound from the pebbles anymore

[boreal kiln]

Strong rolls add to the hype of getting good gear, I think that would piss off a lot more people than the number that will be happy with it, and all that just to implement a broken multiclass that defeats the purpose of classes?

[zealous zenith]

Well, slings use rounded and balanced "bullets" as ammo as well, so it wouldn't be weird to find that as loot

[tulip hill]

I'm not sure how that would feel gameplay wise, but programming that would be easy
just replace the rubble piles with an interactable that poops out the ammo and changes its walking sound after that
hell, could even have it produce other small items that were potentially under the rubble to give everyone a reason to dig

[chrome gale]

typically slings use rocks or anything you can find

[worn lava]

You really need to watch TheSpudHunter

[chrome gale]

it could make noise while your shifting still until its cleared

[tulip hill]

much louder than opening a chest for sure, yeah

[worn lava]

If you would scroll up you would see my other comments instead of PVP stats they would remove them and replace them with brand new PVE stats. Still going to be hype to get good gear especially since armor rating goes up the higher rarity you get and brand new stats on gear to help with PvE named weapons would still have the same effects they have just instead of PVP stats on them they have PvE and the cool side effect they do like the stick spawning in gas every other hit they'd all still be there watch TheSpudHunter he explains everything perfect what needs to happen or this game continues down the rabbit hole

[boreal kiln]

Right well I don't exactly know the details of what you're advocating for, I just know there are other problems that are bothering me and many other players more than the PVP aspects

[boreal kiln]

This is what I meant by other problems

[worn lava]

Well look up TheSpudHunter on YouTube watch a couple of his dark and darker videos and you'll understand very quickly what should change if they remove the PVP stats gear based matchmaking also gets removed automatically without PvP stats on gear there's no reason for rank based matchmaking and gear based matchmaking and by the way you said there are other problems bothering you and others more than PvP aspects but you then talk about multi-class with fundamentally fits in with PVP and gear based matchmaking fits in with PVP with removing PVP stats, you do kind of fix multi-classing being overpowered and fix the matchmaking system this game it's totally fallen from what the original idea was

[carmine saddle]

Can we get a undead dummy any time soon? really wanna test all spells with the scaling ( one that also works with flame walk please)

[fresh valve]

NERF ALL PERKS AND SKILLS IF THEY ARE MULTICLASSED. ITS THAT EASY:)

[broken kayak]

categorize abilities across classes and mark them ineligible based on the type. Movement, damage, healing, etc.

cannot equip sprint and rage, cannot equip second wind and blood exchange, cannot equip victory strike and blow of corruption etc... prevent people from stacking to oblivion

[fresh valve]

IF A CLERIC USES SMITE, DOES MORE DAMAGE THAN IF ANOTHER CLASS USES SMITE

[elfin vale]

rename rogue to victim

[elfin vale]

except its not that easy, even a nerfed ambush is still a 1 shot on a ranger with windlass. a nerfed overheal is still insane on a warlock, and a nerfed sprint or second wind is still way too good on a barb. certain perks/abilities are just too good with certain classes or weapons

[fresh valve]

well i rather get a nerfed multiclass perk/skill than a not nerfed and broken one.

[sharp vault]

worst patch by far. dont even know where to begin with the suggestions. get rid of multi class holy shit

[arctic lagoon]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/546692/damagearmor-check-is-outta-hand

damage/armor check is absurd. let things be viable without needing stats

[gilded ether]

Add daily quests

[tulip hill]

tab 2 takes 5 rows of filled pouches which isn't too bad
tab 3 takes almost 17 rows, with only 20 rows in a tab, that is a lot of space taken up to get more space
this suggestion would be a good alternative if they really don't want to reduce the price of the 3rd tab
hell, it wouldn't even be too much work since they could just make it one of his quest lines, Tavern Master gives a stash tab as a quest reward so there is already precedent for it

[light pebble]

WEAPON MASTERY NEED TO BE REMOVED

[tulip hill]

if they removed weapon mastery, are there any weapons that require weapon mastery that you would want fighters to still be able to use?

[light pebble]

let everyone use everything

[tulip hill]

interesting idea, though I feel like that would cause more problems, especially with ranged weapons
without the opportunity cost of needing weapon mastery, along with the damage penalty, everyone would be running around with bows
given how heated people talk about the "range meta" I'm sure such a change would cause an uproar in that debate
so what if weapons had stat requirements, like how invis pots require 15 knowledge?

oh..hmm, actually that might cause issues since some debuffs reduce your attributes
does anyone know what happens with the invis pot if your knowledge drops below 15?

[elder bobcat]

What weapon is too strong with who? Not including ranged weapons

[strange sluice]

i feel like the general idea is we all know the game rewarded players that had the time to play a lot since they would have the money to run good gear. however now with multiclassing is that newer/casual players cannot even just save up the money for a good kit since other users will have a perfect combination of perks/skills which can't be compensated for by some players. it gives off the impression that the future of this game does not care about players that don't have the time to power level all the classes and get the money to gear up. the gear score doesn't even matter in this regard since the skills/perks are set regardless of it.
I definitely play more than the majority of the population of the playerbase but i was not able to get even close to some peers in skill rolls for direct upgrades. The rng reward token is honestly fine since end of the day it is rng. however players that can roll 8 times have an immediate permanent advantage that other more casual players cannot adjust for.

IM had recently added the guest 1 week code to invite friends. At the current state of multiclassing personally I cannot recommend any new player to pick up the game as they will be at a massive disadvantage from the get go even more than before.

classes have lost their individualality. wizard with heals is >> over cleric for the movespeed and cast speed, fighter can go robust + iron will

[tulip hill]

hard to say now that everyone has access to everyone elses perks and skills
in the realm of hypothetical builds, at this point classes boil down to base stats
Falchion is probably still the most popular onehanded weapon for those that can use it
Spear Mastery is a rather popular perk to give ranger better melee ability but unlocking every weapon for them could potentially free up a perk slot
letting everyone use every shield could also throw us into a weird wall meta...and idk what that might turn into
going back to ranger actually, longswords might be a scary weapon for them to have given their defensive nature and damage potential

[surreal garnet]

Loving the multiclass system so far. Made some modest modifications to my class of choice, they get me killed more often than not but I'm loving the diversity of gameplay multiclassing brings for those that stick around for a long time after the initial wipe hype.

[old zenith]

I got an idea to help squish the player base a bit

Right now we have about 3 maps and 3 modes along with gear based matchmaking that just spreads put the player base into too many categories

What could be done is allow matchmaking in normals for 3s on a Map rotation this will help squish the size for more players in that catagory

Also it will be less risky for people playing for the random team killers and for those that do we can use the already in-game feature of the karma system you get enough reports you get banned from normal matchmaking for a time I don't belive it is abuseable as you would need to do the killing blow on someone for it to work

However do not touch High roller this will also allow people to still choose what map they wish to play for what maps they wish to play, also it puts too much risk on bringing in gear and do not know how to solve that

We dont have enough players and the lobbies are getting too spread out this is my suggestion on how to solve it

[karmic quiver]

Sadly, that’s gonna last a week tops. The meta is already forming.

[brisk dock]

remove multiclass

[worn lava]

Please remove all the extra stats you get on higher gear rework it replace them with PVE stats that help with fighting mobs watch TheSpudHunter on YouTube do what he is saying please Even if you remove multi-classing you should still do what he's saying I want multi-classing to stay but it cannot and will not work if you keep physical power, magical power. All the rest of those stats on gear That boost our character and our damage. They just don't work in PVP. It's impossible to make it fair for everybody and fix all the broken overpowered things in the game and because you have those stats on gear, you need gear base matchmaking and rank base matchmaking but those systems don't work. They never have on games like this one You either need to make a drastic change or let the game die and move on. Create something new

[strong grotto]

The fix is, actually, simple. Make new maps and PvE content, actually challenging and rewarding, with rare materials and drops. Make it be accessible with only certain gear score. As example - every next level of dungeon (as we all remember, IMace wanted to create 3 level system at every map) would require you to have certain level of gear score with 3rd level being the most challenging and demanding towards it. People would now actually WANT for better gear and be more likely to go in PvP because of it, while those successful - will earn rewards of their labor selling rare materials and artifacts from the deepest level of dungeons.

[crisp pendant]

Fix XP? its too low

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/546799/xp-increase-41924
Upvote PLEASE

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[strong grotto]

NOPE, lmao!
What a 'bright" idea to make people grind more, especially with multiclass being added and we needed to test the whole system out and through!

[crisp pendant]

lvl 200 will take forever to get to with XP right now, Even if you get to 200 you got to lvl other classes to 35

And Im sorry but i played for 4 hours last night, I made it out 9/10 times and about 25 matches and lvled my bard from 1-12 in white lobbies, thats insane!

[strong grotto]

Dude. I was pre-grinding Bard to level 35 and fighter to level 30. It took me around 7 days to get to level 35 bard and level 20 fighter. After the experience change my bard became level 67 and fighter became level 30. So it is ALREADY A 150% INCREASE in your EXP gain.

[sharp vault]

this game is no longer fun. its just a chore. please revert multiclassing

creep sucks, gbmm sucks, multiclassing sucks.

[graceful frost]

Agreed.
Gbmm could be decent but it’s implementation is bad, rn heals are worth more than gear

[fiery portal]

Please remove creep . I like multiclass but creep is worst part of the game . Almost nobody is using it to avoid pvp

[visual umbra]

The fact that they think the grind to multiclass is fine is insane.
It's a streamers paradise right now, and everyone else can get F'ed

They say "Get ready for a chaotic time in the dungeon, ha ha"

Why?? Have ya'll given up trying to complete making the game?
What's the point of this (obvious) detour?

[weak zenith]

I think i remember them talking about multiclassing a long time ago, just came the time they wanted to try it probably. Just happens to be super unfun for a lot of people looks like

[visual umbra]

It's not even that it's unfun.
It's that most people won't even get the opportunity to try it.
I mean, it's a terrible idea from conception, but if it must be done, at least make it attainable.

[weak zenith]

I agree, the forced grind is a wierd choice
Especially with the RNG aspect

[visual umbra]

Here's how you fix it (Other than removing multiclassing entirely, which would be my preferred choice)

• Your character becomes a master at level 15. You have unlocked all perk slots, what else is there to 'master'?
• Speed up leveling by requiring less xp per level. This results in more fun and quicker, objectively. (Don't base core gameplay on r-m-t prevention. This is how games die)
• Let me pick whatever perk / skill / spell i want from my target class. Forcing me to roll a set of 3 is just a tacit admission that you've added perks / skills to the game that suck
• Let me respec my tokens at the alchemist whenever i want, at a cost. Don't limit me to twice a week, or whatever it is now.

You could argue that multiclassed perks / skills should be less powerful on a class they aren't native to. I think this is way less important than the above mentioned fixes.

[granite plinth]

The thing that makes multiclassing terrible is not the "idea" of it, its the execution. You need to have your main character a high enough level to be able to have multiple class tokens to be able to use on a character that you'd like some spells / perks / abilities from, and you also need to have the character of which u want the spells / perks / abilities from to be level 35. When you roll the class token, its completely RNG on whether you get good spells / perks / abilities or not. Meaning you either get a completely broken combo which allows you to now compete with all the top people that have all the broken combos and what not, but if you don't get any good spells, now you have to invest SO MUCH TIME into leveling up wayyyy more to keep rolling and rolling for the perks / spells / abilities. and what if you STILL dont get the good combos that you're looking for? Its completely RNG and enforces way too much time investment for a community that has next to no children with a bunch of free time, this game has tons of people like me with full time jobs and an actual life that have already spent so much time building kits and collecting gold that now we have to do it again? I think ill pass, I have zero interest in getting rolled by people who have the time / luck to get all the best multiclass combos. I've used all my class tokens and got completely worthless perks that will do nothing for me, so no I don't think im going to volunteer myself to get my stash completely emptied by people who got lucky and or have no life. GG Ironmace. If you implemented this multi classing maybe at the end of a wipe im sure people would absolutely LOVE it and would have a blast doing all of these silly and OP comibnations and it would also give oyu tons of feedback for what to add and what to not include for the next implimentation of it. Instead you do it not even halfway through the wipe, when so many peoiple have already devoted so much time into the game like myself and now are getting completely rolled by people with good rng and or no lives who are able to keep using class tokens because they are able to invest so much time into leveling up.

[harsh wedge]

this is true

also i picked spell memory on a class with spell memory and when i rotated my actual original spell memory got deleted gg

[elfin vale]

rename rogue to victim

remove multiclassing u freaks

[outer lotus]

⬆️ vote 🗳️

[rich flume]

The game was already hard to balance when classes were restricted to their own abilities and designed around them. The multiclass system breaks many of the constraints and balancing ideas and unless you only allow a handful of specific abilities to be learned instead of any, it will not be able to be balanced. For example, slayer imposes a penalty on fighter that they can't wear plate, but this is a non-issue for any of the other melee classes that didn't wear plate to begin with.

It needs to be removed or restricted to a small choice of perks/skills. ie if you multiclass rogue you can pick up things like creep or the utility skills, not hide and ambush or other class defining abilities/perks.

Also, if you wanted to test this and get real data, you should've just allowed everyone to multiclass after 15. As it stands, only people that play all day every day are going to be able to get enough perks by the time this ends to give you any meaningful data.

[granite plinth]

this ^

[outer lotus]

If yall dont like multiclass, make a post in the suggestions website and advertise it here. Ironmace isnt reading paragraphs posted here

[jaunty gulch]

Boost XP gain or lessen the amount of xp it takes to level up more.

[full ember]

Im suggesting a stash room just for purses, bags, and chests to free up a lot of room for items to store. (allow this to be free and where your money would go as when you start racking up money it becomes hard to store items.

[modest oyster]

REMOVE MULITCLASS!

[boreal kiln]

The game is literally dying for real this time. All the HR lobbies are dead because of the gear score matchmaking. The ruins is gone even though people loved it. Solo queues for all maps were removed and even map rotations as well. It's a shame they messed up all the good things and added this cancer of a multiclass system which is only good for those who nolife a bunch of different classes...

I wonder if the devs ever took a second to consider what the experience is like for a new player... Now you can't even use your gear or trade until level 20, let alone use the multiclass system which is locked behind a massive playtime wall. Is that how these devs balance their game???

[split haven]

"i have to play a few hrs for a few days to get lvl 30 = MASSIVE PLAYTIME WALL" 🤣

[rich pier]

i think if we are foced to play normal, we should be able to bring at least green stuff with us, else you have to loot 6 hours but every time you are out of game you cnat use the stuff you looted and if the stash is full you cant do anything with it

[forest tundra]

please update the test server lol

[gaunt valve]

Multiclassing is just extremely unfun to play against when everyone is taking it into low-roller against new players. I just got back into the game after time away and I can't catch up to a ranger using sprint on fighter because they just use barb rage to run off

[hallow flare]

Saw an Achilles strike ranger earlier, was super nasty lol. Just enjoy multiclassing while it’s in, it’s not going away before end of wipe and honestly, all the “broken” things still require a gear build around it, it’s a blast if you just enjoy it

[forest tundra]

@keen onyx loving multiclassing, but I was wondering if you could update the test server? it would be beneficial to have the test server on the latest version while the test server is on a version that is 1 patch behind. This would create an actual test environment to gather data before the patch goes live on the main server.

[lament sequoia]

@keen onyx f multiclassing re roll did not reset ?

[civic zodiac]

Multiclass need a complete rework tbf. Movement speed related perk should not get transfer and many need a nerf. Fighter and barb need to keep up with others if all class can outspeed fighter and barb that will render melee class 100% worthless wich is a huge mistake and instead of promoting diversity it will narrow the choice of build/ character to only few viable build wich gonna requieres hundred of hour of investment to get in a 3month wipe window that just not working

[somber wind]

I actually think multiclassing is almost balanced, yeah it needs some rebalancing but I think it's ALOT closer to balanced than anyone would've expected it to be. I don't think it's outright eroded the game like people were expecting it to.

[naive cosmos]

Classes should have General and Latent perks, the former can be shared via mastery while the latter is class specific; only perks and spells can be obtained

Cmv

[somber wind]

Yeah capstone perks, I'd agree with that. Another option is going down the road that they were talking about a long time ago and adding subclassing but making it so you cant multiclass subclass skills/perks/spells.

[naive cosmos]

There should be a class wheel where you can multiclass from your 2 adjacent classes
Fighter > cleric > wizard > warlock > Druid > ranger > barb > rogue > barbarian > fighter

[somber wind]

I feel like that's too much, I think a better alternative is you cant multiclass more than 2 other classes.

[naive cosmos]

I agree you right

[somber wind]

To give an idea of how flavorful and class identity defining subclasses can be. Here's Rogue's subclasses from Dungeons and Dragons: Arcane Trickster, Assassin, Inquisitive, Phantom, Mastermind, Scout, Soulknife, Swashbuckler, Thief.

It nails down the kind of Rogue you are.

[naive cosmos]

Maybe it can be like oblivion where you select your master and subclass and that char is locked in as such?

My takes are awful

[somber wind]

I was thinking it was something you could change on the fly personally but you cant mix and match subclasses. So for example all Arcane Trickster Perks/Skills/Spells are exclusive to Arcane Trickster so if you change to Swashbuckler you cant use any of the Arcane Trickster Perks/Skills/Spells. Being able to swap it just feels good like we can with existing perks even before multiclassing. Can only have 1 Subclass at a time. That said I think being able to Subclass immediately might be overwhelming for newer players so maybe an unlock similar to Multiclassing where you hit a specific level and gain access?

https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/rogue/subclasses/

Can help to understand what the subclasses do in Dungeons and Dragons to see how it might be adapted to Dark and Darker flavor wise.

[toxic forge]

Make it so 1 - 15 is almost twice as fast to level so new players can get the 'core' stuff fast. Set max level cap to 30, but make 16 - 30 progressively grindier. Those levels are for the skill tree / subclassing trees. Add a prestiging system that could give various rewards such as rare gear, cosmetics, blue shards, idk. Players that don't play much can stay at 30 when they get it and don't have to grind for the extras.

Each class would release with maybe 2 skill trees to start, more as devs cook. One skill tree reinforces the classes core identity, with 2-3 options for each selection. The other takes stuff from 2-3 other classes identities, possibly even having modified versions of the classes abilities (like fighter + cleric might get Lay on Hands)

This would let devs balance by adding / removing perks from skill trees, tweaking individual skills if needed, and they wouldn't have to nerf Smite for everyone as example.

Maybe get a skill point every 3 levels from 16 - 30, for 5 skill points for a total of 10 - 15 things to choose from. Some things might be mutually exclusive, idk lots of ways to tweak this concept. But some way to alleviate grind for players that play less so they can play on equal footing, while giving the grinders something to grind away at if they'd like. They even get to reset and disadvantage themselves to farm more stuff.

[iron palm]

replace gear based matchmaking and keep the 3 queues but divide it into 1. gray-white 2. green-blue 3. purple+ so ez brain go brrr

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[elfin vale]

and who are u gna test on bro? ghosts? theres not even 100 ppl on test

[rotund flicker]

Guys good solutioon to people crying that leveling is too long could be lowering the required experience just for certain levels maybe 1-50 not whole through whole range. Let's keep the long grind for higher levels

[ripe turtle]

I wanna play chess in a tavern to sharpen my senses.

[solar helm]

Battle pass
That has cosmetics
Skins for shit
Learn Tokens
SHards
Level EXP
We need more microtransactions

[rocky flower]

We need more microtransactions
agree

[strong grotto]

I hope you are joking. If not - get lost.

[solar helm]

im not the onyl one that thinsk this

This is a korean game company its nothing new for them to add a BP its going to happen cause we need more microtransactions

[strong grotto]

Then you can get lost TOGETHER! Yay! You will have a company of fools around you!

[solar helm]

LMAOOOO you are so sherm

[strong grotto]

Ah, sure. Just by "virtue" of being Koreans, the developers should act like MORONS and insert battle passes and MORE microtransactions in the game, THAT WAS NOT FREE TO PLAY TO BEGIN WITH.

The ONLY possible way of me EVER accepting mtx in the game is if those developers will give me back my money and make the game F2P.

[oak timber]

its still a f 9-5 just to test something. Please FIX MULTI CLASS and give all tokens at least at lvl 35 to make it feel gratifying stop changing experience

[unkempt oriole]

suggestion:War maul can destroy door without perk

[frosty pier]

A bit weird that you can get spell memory but not access to any spellcasting weapons without weapon mastery, meanwhile everyone got access to instruments just in case we got music memory from Bard. I would suggest getting spell memory automatically gives you Magic Staff or Spellbook since those are baseline for every spellcaster

[outer lotus]

We need more upvotes

[ivory quartz]

Yep agreed, Microtransactions are the boon this game needs. It will allow the devs to finally move away fromt he new player experience in terms of development

[worn lava]

check out the TheSpudHunter on YouTube he talks about exactly what needs to be changed

[ivory quartz]

Man you are going to make me agree with @strong grotto, and he has had me muted for 5 months, Spud hunter has the worst takes in the community

[rich torrent]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/539385/make-otto-the-expressman

Needs moar upvote! XD

[strong grotto]

Ah, yes, because Spud is absolute Truth. Mate, I have my own opinion and I've said it. If you want to separate players - give REASON to that separation and REWARD for that separation. That is harder and more rewarding content must be locked behind higher gear score, so people would have a REASON and NEED to have it. And for all those who cares only about mindless fighting for no reason but fighting - welcome to the lowest levels with normal gear, where you can kill and maim each other battle royal style till the second coming!

Because the main problem is not in fact that people separated, but in fact that they try to separate people by GEAR, when they need to be separated by NEED, the reason to play.

[stark cosmos]

guy is kinda bricked in the head tbh

not enjoyable to watch at all

[obsidian patrol]

Please put purchase history for marketplace so I can get the same items for normals pls ❤️

[lean whale]

i feel like you need to add a mode where multiclass is disabled for newer players like if you just want to play without multiclass you can change the mode kind of like the high roler mode

[worn lava]

i don't want to separate players remove gear based matchmaking and rank based matchmaking but I've heard a good amount of people not enjoy the mid max play everyone is doing the game isn't that high in player count to have that big games can

[worn lava]

may not be the best in skill wise but he makes good points

[worn lava]

yeah he has talked about the kind of people that would disagree what crazy wacky idea would you come up with for fixes I'm down to listen I'm open

[ivory quartz]

Oh boy, thats a tough one, and if your a fan of spudhunter you prob won't like a word of it. But to answer your question, first I would roll back, every singe hofix since release. That includes the first one adjusting meds and potion stacking, the next patch adjusting Armor rating and its relation to pdr, and all the class balance changes including the nerfs to Barb, Bard, Landmind rogue, every wizard nerf. And go back to square fucking one.

[ivory quartz]

Then I would just stop with any attempts to make this game balanced, until we have established the 9 core classes including druid, and introduced a functional training/multiclassing/talent tree system. (Personally I would recomend a talent tree it has been proven to work int his genre for years).

[ivory quartz]

Then in terms of making the game better, all we need is more content. New weapons new armor, new maps, new bosses. If IM nees money they can add microtransactions of some kind even sell reward tokens so people can just buy items, that will help alleviate the issue with gold sellers as well.

[astral jewel]

What do you propose to equalize the classes? Aside from removing multi classing.

Not completely but so much so it doesn’t leave things like fighter and barbarian/warlock the best and no other playable

[ivory quartz]

Classes should not be equal. That the purpose of having classes, they each have their own identity which leads to advantages and disadvantages. Admittedly this does lead to polarized matchups in SOLO queue, but that is the cost of playing an RPG, you will have to try and specialize at what your class does good and simply avoid fights you can not take.

[astral jewel]

Sure but I haven’t lost in the 300 plus que to any class as a fighter with 170hp and 71pdr 49mdr and not bad speed

[languid acorn]

Anyone think having a multi class system where if you hit lvl 20 on a character (let’s use a fighter as a example) you can choose a class to multi class with like a wizard. Then the lvl 20 fighter would become a lvl 1 wizard and once you hit lvl 20 as a wizard you become a wizard fighter that has a set mix of spells and perks form both classes, maybe even some new ones. It would also make it so the base classes could have perks and skills that the multi classes don’t have access to so they would still be viable if you don’t want to multi class

[astral jewel]

Like this idea makes sense

[forest tundra]

clearly people test it from time to time. it had thousands on during multiclass

[woven oxide]

I don't think my level 12 barb should be getting wrecked on a normal lobby by a warlock that is high in multi class. Maybe there can be some sort of level cap for normal lobbies or some sort of match making for that scenario

[ivory quartz]

Fighter is the objectively best class for solo in the game, it was designed to be and prob always will be. There are ways to beat fighter even back in the days of 80% PDR, it simply required a change of strategy and meta. IM changed the game before the meta adjusted, they always do this, they never give the player base time to learn the matchup and adjust their playstyle to counter it. Using the previous example Reckless attack barb could absolutely destroy fighters with god kits with nothing more than a blue or purple felling axe.

[astral jewel]

The game doesn’t have enough players for this already divided between 3 maps and hr and normals

[astral jewel]

Aye but barbarian should counter casters and casters should be counter not vis Versa

[languid acorn]

What do you think having a multi class system where if you hit lvl 20 on a character (let’s use a fighter as a example) you can choose a class to multi class with like a wizard. Then the lvl 20 fighter would become a lvl 1 wizard and once you hit lvl 20 as a wizard you become a wizard fighter that has a set mix of spells and perks form both classes, maybe even some new ones. It would also make it so the base classes could have perks and skills that the multi classes don’t have access to so they would still be viable if you don’t want to multi class

[ivory quartz]

It is better than the current system, which allows you to pick and choose from everything to cover all your class difficencies, but in all honesty I think some kind of talent tree system with two or three branches is the best, so as to allow you to differentiate your calss better by subclassing. So an example this would be like, giving rogue some magic damage line, where they could get more points to will, and maybe give their poison wep better scaling so they can do + magic damage rogue. Or making slayer fighter a dedicated subclass by moving that perk into the skill tree. Or making a dedicated longsword Warlock by giving them better corrupting blow and access to some of fighters riposte abilities. We have had subclasses in Dark and darker already, like BOC warlock, Poison rogue, pickpocket rogue, Magic damage fighter, slayer fighter, Ignite wizard, IM just keeps nerfing shit and making them unviable instead of leaning into subclasses.

[forest tundra]

@keen onyx pls update the test server too:(

[lament sequoia]

why is mindwipe still broken ?

clearly the problem is during mindwipe.... it was still broken... THE time ended friday and yet i could not reset abilities ??? hello iron mace are you blind

[hardy vector]

make hr every fucking level norms sucks ass 💀

[fervent fern]

Please remove the time or lower it on mindreset i got shit roll and i just cant compete agaisnt thoses multiclass with this build i dont want to wait 3day

[carmine saddle]

can we get movement speed penalty on sheathing weapons already, is such boring gameplay

[hardy vector]

there is

[hazy cairn]

spell overload for wiz isnt working

[narrow flower]

Multiclassed perks should have synergies, like mana surge & malice having one big different effect when theyre both equipped

[pulsar crag]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/547004/multiclass-respec

[forest tundra]

new player discovers jump momentum mechanic

[hardy vector]

you still get slowed for .1-.2 seconds

[stuck spoke]

We should have left and right arrows on the merchants so we can toggle between them more smoothly

[pulsar schooner]

What if you made it limited token like 4, and then gave us more mindwipes but made them like 2k gold to do so it would still be work and a grind and evertyone gets to doa build they want but they have to play?????

[teal tundra]

i suggest to remove this multiclase nonsense, everybody running around as slayer sucks

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[fervent fern]

upvote this

[ornate stream]

WE NEED TO BRING BACK ROTATION I MISS PLAYING GOBLIN CAVE TRIOS

[granite plinth]

POISON WEAPON SHOULD DEFINITELY WORK WITH ARROWS

Definitely a great multiclass choice for a ranger if it worked

[neon meadow]

Remove the RNG perks and let tokens be used to buy the skill or perk you want from the class that has the levels

[pulsar schooner]

and make limited with unlimited rerolls but like 1500 gold

[neon meadow]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/547044/remove-random-perk-skill-system

[spice patio]

Wizard light orb should not reveal allies who are stealthed. Unsure if this is an intended mechanic or just a bug.

[soft nebula]

DISABLE RAGE AND SPRINT STACKING PLEASE

[violet sequoia]

a ranger with 330 MS at all time, how fun is that?

[civic zodiac]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1c958pa/the_drumbarian/ counter bullshit with bullshit XD

[soft nebula]

HELLO TRAPS DO DAMAGE IN PHANTOMIZE NOW?

[strong grotto]

Good. Phantomize abusers should suffer.

[civic zodiac]

+1 🤣

[dusk fiber]

Traps always did damage in phantomize, they were never activated by it, so if you see warlock phantom walk over spikes, toss a torch and laugh.

[strong grotto]

Wait, really? WILL DO! THANKS FOR HEADS UP! HAHahAHAHAahahaAHAA!!!

[limber dock]

you guys mean spike traps? didn't know

[strong grotto]

Hmmmm... Honestly? I think it should. Here's why. Stealth is already BAD mechanic. It is one thing to be camouflaged and silent, but to disappear with no trace? That's crap. It is no skill "peek-a-boo, I-kill-you" button. Just think about it, what is more fair - to hide yourself in shadows or behind some blind spot to launch an ambush, or to just press the damn button and become undetectable land mine? Thus, the whole idea of spell is to reveal all invisibility, whether it is friend or foe, the spell doesn't care. And it is good. Because the whole idea in games should be changed and lift up from the mere "invisibility on demand button" to an actual mechanic of melting in the surroundings.

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[thin pier]

Here's an idea... MAKE A GOD DAMN SERVER FOR THE CHINESE, STOP RUINING THE GAME FOR ME

[strong grotto]

NIIIII-AH-MAAAAAAAAAAH!!!! xDDDDDDD

[thin pier]

I aint saying what a certain moustache man did was correct, but i understand

[strong grotto]

You know how little that narrows it down? What EXACT moustache man?

[ripe turtle]

@keen onyx Take a look at this.

[strong grotto]

Just simply give us blank characters and let us level them up as we want, choosing what class to progress in at every level. That's it. The class identity already doesn't mean anything with multiclassing, lol. So it is better to just give us free progression anyway.

[thin pier]

thee one about 80 years ago who didnt like a certain people

[strong grotto]

Again, lol! Care to narrow it a bit?

[dusk fiber]

I belive he is talking about a certain failed austrian painter

[thin pier]

^

[strong grotto]

Ah, that bastard. Well, there is nothing to understand then, really. A vile, twisted person, most likely traumatized by his WW1 experiences and the lack of length and girth in his pants decided to enslave his country, twist their morality and remove one ethnicity from equation. Utterly failed rat of a man. Like all of his followers.

[thin pier]

all im saying is i understand now

[dusk fiber]

And he rolled min !endowed on Soapy's stream it seems.

[strong grotto]

Though, some countries, like maple syrups, for example, and the not-so-united stars and stripes, were very happy to take in all of his followers who escaped retribution. Yay, the West! Covering and saving scum across the Earth for centuries!

[tiny wigeon]

How insanely entitled are you, that u ping the dev.
Your words are so far above ours that he must know right now what you are saying.
For you are the wise chosen one.
Idiot

[strong grotto]

LMAO!
How insanely entitled are you, that you decide what is important and not?
Your "honorable intervention" is so far above anything devs are able to say or act upon!
For you are the knight of justice and honor, the chosen protector and moderator of masses!
Imbecile.

[tiny wigeon]

Dude, he is pinging a dev directly, when this channel isnt for that. He just feels he is so important that the dev must know what he is saying.
Why u even defending him?
Im not knight of justice, its just basic common sense, im sorry if you dont have that basic common sense.
You sure talk alot in this channel and say nothing useful.

Try use ur little brain every one and while, try and think if everyone that came here just pinged the dev. Do you think that would be useful? They have a system in place, if you wanna suggest , you use their website, you dont come here and ping devs, first of all, it wont work, and second of all, its gonna be useless if everyone starts randomly pinging the dev cause they think their idea is the next level. yikes

[frigid current]

the current system should be "quick buy" and there should be an additional offer system where the seller only sees the highest bid

[strong grotto]

"You sure talk alot in this channel and say nothing useful."
Taking an example from the best of us! From you, sir Sauk, noble of moderation and saivor of development!
You are a joke.

[frigid current]

<@&988703997378584596> my sick suggestion is being drowned out

[spice patio]

Revealing an area for enemies is different than revealing an area in general. If Light Orb only worked on enemy players it would have significantly more usage and with the rise of more stealth mechanics, making it work on enemies only would allow for the usage of stealth yourself. You say 'Stealth is no skill, peek-a-boo I kill you' - but in reality, its easy to track a player's general path if you look at dead mobs. Moment you see dead mobs or looted items you should immediately be on guard. Allowing for more options instead of restricting your whole team because you decided to take one spell is more crap imho

[lone badge]

@tiny wigeon @strong grotto Please keep this channel for its intended purpose and be respectful in the discord

[frigid current]

^ big baller, i put 10 on it that they're in each other's DMs rn

the current system should be "quick buy" and there should be an additional offer system where the seller only sees the highest bid

[mortal lodge]

WARLOCK EVIL EYE not working at game!!!
WARLOCK EVIL EYE not working at game!!!
WARLOCK EVIL EYE not working at game!!!

[strong grotto]

Nope. I've blocked that "white knight". I was annoyed at his from a long time before, was curious what those "blocked messages" were, so I've opened and, lo an behold, he was at it again! Being "good boi", shielding the developers and moderating masses again! Couldn't hold myself, really. Should've though.

[rancid vale]

The Bard should have the ability to play the instruments w/out casting. Just playing for fun and making up new tunes.

[strong grotto]

Not convincing, mate. Invisibility instead of real stealth - is rotten crutch instead of actual gameplay.

[waxen gust]

Poison Weapon does not work on ranger arrows, correct?

[hallow flare]

Nah, it works on everything including spells

[waxen gust]

not sure if you're being sarcastic in a helpful channel - I'm just not understanding why it works on hand crossbow but not bow

[hallow flare]

No, I’m serious, I guess I haven’t tested it on a bow but it works on my dark bolts so 🤷

[waxen gust]

interesting i'll test more, thanks

[hallow flare]

Seems like there is a lot of programming errors with these perks that were never designed with other classes weapons or armor in mind in general. I wonder if they’ll embrace it, or make it so that some of these cool interactions just don’t work, like demon armor letting you be a plate slayer

[waxen gust]

I had the same thoughts. Also just tested it and poison does not apply from the ranger bow.

[hallow flare]

Maybe it is programmed in a way it only applies to 1 handed weapons, because rogue can only use 1 handed? My dark bolts were doing it with the crystal ball, haven’t seen about other spells/casting tools yet

[strong grotto]

Well, that's stupid. It should be. Hope devs will fix it, if that whole multiclass circus to go live.

[hallow flare]

Does the bow glow green with the effect still?

[waxen gust]

It doesn’t, but the melee weapon does

[hallow flare]

Hmm, weird, because my crystal ball has a funny green line going through it because the effect wasn’t designed for an orb lol, I’ll have to see if it applies to spellbook or staff when I get home

I also really want to know if it poisons firewalker, but that’s hard to test, I’ll need to grab a friend to be a test rat

[spice sandal]

no more multiclassing, - no more gear based match making, -Gear should be for PvE, -Only talent and practice for PVE. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!

[soft nebula]

robe nerfs were rough, sure, -5 was a lil too good, but i think making robes -7 instead and the occultist robe -8 would be much more reasonable, simply too expensive right now and everyone is using adventurer tunic again which is rly boring and undrippy

also, when ironmace updates something, its always super drastic. seriously, take it slow, find the sweet spot. dont just throw everything around chaotically

[frigid current]

it's been handled ty

but this was my sick suggestion if thats what u mean

the current system should be "quick buy" and there should be an additional offer system where the seller only sees the highest bid

so my items that DONT EVER SELL might get some lowball offers that i could snag

[granite plinth]

this character mixing is actual cancer

legit just as the game begun to feel good again, were straight back to full blown shit

[sharp vault]

i actually really like this. however i hope they focus on other stuff first ngl like actually balancing the game a little

[mossy shuttle]

(For pretext) So after being a straight up hater on multi-class without even trying it, merely taking an opinion on it from videos alone, I gave it a go last night and I can actually say it is fun. To the nay sayers that haven't actually tried it, give it a go if you're at the required levels, I can understand not wanting to even touch the game if you're not, especially with the perceived grind of the game.
@keen onyx
That being said, I do still feel there is a still an imbalance to it with the way the game is currently setup.
1)
Time-gated re-rolls on random rolls. If you want re-rolling to be a money sink for economy sake, Why are you time-gating it. When has time-gated content ever been a good game decision for players, it's continuously hated and it's because it makes players FEEL like now they can't play the game they WANT to play because of a Dev's decision. If we're going to be allowed to re-roll then give us our sink, stop clogging it, you could even increase the price requirement (with overall better community reception most likely) (i.e +150g/use then scale that up too even after lets say 3-5 rerolls +50g) (that being said for the love of IronMace don't let this scale indefinitely to 2000g+) the more times it's used, making rerolls a larger sink and a heavily weighted decision based on already obtained perks/abilities.
2)
forcing you to level classes to 30. (perhaps classes as a whole)
With there being no real class identity why would someone want to play a rogue specifically for example, with the lowest base stats in the game, when you can just collect their abilities on better predestined stat rolled classes.

My suggestion moving forward though not my own original idea but with some more defined changes.

Please try a wipe with a Base "Wanderer" "class" Give players the ability to allot their levels into stats, abilities, and perks as they level to 15, then give more perks and abilities again (could even be a rng roll like it functionally is now with re-rolls) at 30+.
If making the game closer to Dungeons and Dragons is the creative direction you (devs) are envisioning then give us a real DnD experience, Allow US to make stupid decisions along side meta ones. Functionally this may even be easier to balance than adjusting stats on each individual class instead of just a base one, Meta will be easier for the sweats and for the slaves that follow alongside it, and easier for you (devs) to balance as you can focus more on allocation ability (perhaps certain perks/abillities consume more points than others) all the while you can focus on balancing weapon's stats and abilities/perks numbers (while still handing out creative freedom to the players).

[sharp vault]

i wish i could upvote

[mossy shuttle]

added more to the end

[frigid current]

just limit MC to two modifications per character, super easy

idk why im replying to this guy

[ripe turtle]

Would be nice to write to my friends within Dark and Darker game (right click player name and have "write a message" option)

[radiant vapor]

Suggestion: becoming a "master" of a weapon type via multiclass pick should enable the use of the weapon for the class without having to choose the fighter's weapon master perk.

[late eagle]

gear scord systeme dont work !!!

[elfin vale]

rename rogue to victim

[hollow coral]

it does xd

[languid spoke]

a wanderer class would be goated and it would be a good test to see whether a classless system works 🙂

[lament summit]

+2

[mossy shuttle]

I think there's some overall distain with how we've focused on a specific class archetype and now we're just "cucked" by the devs when the best rolled classes are given the most love by the system now implemented, If we give the freedom back to players I think it'll be received good overall

[languid spoke]

it could be done via skill tree too pretty easily

[mossy shuttle]

Exactly^^^^^ This is kinda what I WAS expecting to see from the skill tree anyways, perhaps we allocate our levels into the tree for stats giving players who want a variable playstyle freedom, All the while giving the meta (competitve) players their ability to just run the BiS

[late eagle]

why xD? what is funny

[hollow rock]

Absolutely love multiclassing won't be playing if removed. But needs to be benefit for non multiclass (maybe +1 or +2 all) and SOME restrictions. Get rid of weapon mastery (give it base as fighter) and limit to 2 perks 2 spells and 1 skill

[hollow rock]

This is the case no?

[mossy shuttle]

Think he means w/o taking the fighter class's perk of Weapon mastery specifically, allowing all classes to suffciently choose weapons they'd like to use.

[manic laurel]

I didn’t pay for some rng ability game and it’s such a rip off

[hollow rock]

I haven't tested but sure they said this is how it would work, ie you pick spear mastery and can now equip spears? Or do you need weapon mastery?

[mossy shuttle]

Spear mastery works sort of functionally as weapon mastery without the advantage of using all with the - % debuff on dmg. it's functionally still a perk slot being used rather than like a innate Passive per say. in my version of development #suggestion-discussion message I would stand by allowing the choice of weapons alongside the rest.

[ancient tusk]

add a way to change characters names

[sullen pecan]

longsword needs to be fixed. really fun perfect parrying a falchion and it just goes directly through the parry

not sure how the server stability has gotten worse since playtests with 6 times the playercount

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[neon meadow]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/547044/remove-random-perk-skill-system

[hardy vector]

disallow any class from using spears

[modest oyster]

congratz devs!!!! on making this game trash with multiclass

[eager oyster]

Teaming should be a Software Ban. Where they track your computer hardware and ban you based on your specs.

I'm not talking about the occassional 1v2 situation where you get 3rd partied. I'm talking about the duos in HR farming bosses together in solos

[fervent fern]

upvote

[sacred ledge]

Suggestion: Add weekly polls for proposed content, make a tab IN THE GAME, that you can go to vote. (Similar to OSRS). Allow the community to vote weekly on what should be implemented vs what should not

[alpine violet]

this gearscore system is so stupid! My team made sure we are using under 299 gear and got STEAMROLLED by a full rubysilver gold team with Grimsmiles?????? GET RID OF THIS GEARSCORE BRACKET BULLSHIT!

[neon meadow]

Ya, you can rock full bis as long as you got a naked guy on your team

[marble peak]

i just got 100-0 from a hunter trap in normals. cant disarm because ill take free shots so i back up and close the door. they have time to put weapons away run over, open the door and pull weapons back out before i just literally die to the trap only. what the fuck is this game ironmace....
If you back up instead of taking free shots well there goes your only chance to disarm the trap because its on the other side of the door.

actually done for the day after that canine feces of a game.

[pure summit]

IMO, Game should add in priority:

1. **Arena **(3v3) — With Normal and HR ranks/leaderboard. No gear loss. — maps with ramps, obstacles, flame throwers, traps, etc. to keep things interesting and a little bit random.
2. Figure out content re-playability — Obviously flesh the current maps out, but either hire many more map designers to constantly pump out new maps every season, or figure out how to randomize map modules where you don't know what you'll get, but you know that deeper/center of the map holds much higher-level loot. — Also develop reasons to farm and risk deeper exploration beyond just getting geared to run down timmies. Arena is a big one, but should consider others, such as #3.
3. 5-man raid — Create a very challenging 5-man raid that requires top-end gear. Have it reset weekly (WoW inspired) — Could be upped to 10-man, etc. if the population allows it. — Guaranteed Unique drop, crafting materials, guild hall trophy, leaderboard, etc.
4. Guild Hall / Tavern social hub — This game needs more of a social touch and chill-out areas. Maybe some small medieval tabletop games to bet some gold on as well. — This game wants to feel like a D&D campaign, so let it feel like one with more social elements and downtime emersion. (Plus A.I. NPCs would be fun)
5. Weapon Mastery Progression systems (If multiclassing stays mainly, but can still work.) — Certain classes start with higher level on certain weapons. But you can train to use whatever weapon you wish by using it. Level up and assign skill points to a weapon specialization tree that gives slight augments and improvements to the weapon (+1 weapon damage, +5% action speed, -movespeed penalty, conditionals).

Thoughts?

[alpine violet]

it's super upsetting. I am only having fun in normal games right now. i dont mind fighting geared teams like how the game was before the gearscore system but dont make me feel like I'm in a "bracket" with ballpark equally geared players when it isnt true. Gearscore system is garbage. Game was better when it the brackets were gear rarity locked (Green or lower gear type shit).

[rancid vale]

downtime emersion system thing would be nice... Could easily expand the tavern out to give u what you're looking for. don't think ironmace will do it though. at least not in the capacity u or I am wanting..

[full ember]

Implementing an item return system upon player death against those using "modified files" could restore fairness by permanently removing them from the game. Unfortunately, the challenges posed by such players are not limited to the Asia Pacific region; they often flood servers worldwide, causing disruptions. A system similar to The Cycle Frontier's approach might effectively mitigate this issue.

[foggy sun]

hob goblin race would be cool

[onyx pivot]

make gbmm actually work

[pure summit]

What should IronMace Prioritize? Poll: https://strawpoll.com/3RnYlGM6pye

[dense sentinel]

i think all of this is really solid and worth some thought. my only response really is that rogue has insanely high agi and dex, making it comparable to bard in terms of best class for attack speed. i picked up war maul and adrenaline spike on my rogue and it is INSANE. i also shoot a bow at insane speeds compared to fighter/ranger. again, bard is probably the BEST base class to start with when multiclassing imo, but rogue is a solid contender for many reasons even outside stats.

[polar bough]

Create entirely new gamemodes for multiclass. I think normals and HR for both with and without multiclass would make everyone happy.

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/547191/entirely-multiclass-gamemodes

[mossy shuttle]

I hear you, Rogue IS designed to perform as a quicker movement, faster attack by stats.
I don't even think rogue is necessarily in a bad spot per say, rather it's arguably considered one of the worst by most (I main it but I don't think any class is bad, it's about how you play, (to an extent) I think you got to pick battles and can't expect to win every one by holding W at them).
I guess an argument would be for overall melee-based players you're going to see fighters running rogue perks with the overall most healthy (with vigor, and armor) stats making them the safer option overall, then with gear specked in what they lack (dex/agi) you can basically achieve what rogues do more effectively (with enough levels).

I think the RNG&time-gate is what irks people most making them feel like they're being specifically targeted for not having as much free time as others (most common "constructive feedback" complaints) (and I'm not even saying to remove the RNG as a whole either, I think it still has play with the rerolls to save the economy from becoming ridiculous to a degree) and with the desired creative direction the Devs have said they're aiming for, (Dungeons and Dragons style) thus I think removing these arbitrary requirements of leveling classes (or classes as a whole) you're not even going to main or considered rolling additional perks FOR but rather just FROM would make the game healthier and help make people more receptive to it. Giving the players freedom and control in how their characters actually operates would be a healthier state imo and hopefully change a lot of minds about the idea of "multi-class".

Biggest counter argument of all is this "removes class identity", "how will I know what I'm getting myself into" "I won't know what my enemies cards are" and although it's easy to say "git gud" "play tactically from distance and wait for them to show" "bait it out" it's also not a healthy way to discuss something that is honestly removed. However I will say, that's kind of the point of multi-classing to a degree and it is technically fair as the same can be said for yourself (they don't know what you have). Hopefully someone can come along and think of a good way to implement a functional way to remedy this (short of adding more restrictions to perks/abilities cause that's a thing everyone hates, though some are already in play i.e bow abilities but it wouldn't make much sense if you could cast those with a sword lol)

[tulip hill]

What are yall's thoughts on a perk along the lines of "Steadfast: [X]% of health lost in the past 1 second can be recovered by successfully blocking"
I've noticed a lot of times when people try to block the shield catches the hit right after getting clipped because the shield was very slightly out of position. This perk would introduce a sort of 'partial block' in a similar but different way to Barricade

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[rich veldt]

Remove GBMM, Remove multiclassing. Stop doing kneejerk jojo updates. Stop killing your own game.

[dense sentinel]

very refreshing to have an educated open minded viewpoint being brought to this discord among the rampant doomers and people who cannot give reasoning behind their arguments. i have to say, i would be almost tempted to say go ahead with removing classes and creating a base level character to build from, similar to skyrim. i personally do not care about class identity at all, i think the awesomeness of multiclassing outweighs it tenfold. i also mildly disagree and say that telling people to get good at the game, and to respect people as being strong even if they dont think they might be, is completely valid, because yes... the playing field is even and they dont know what you have either. so ultimately it either comes down to a skill issue, or them having a much more broken build than you created, which is probably also a skill issue if we really think about it. thats something about this community im coming to despise, is their absolute willingness to take a game thats NOT made for casual players and scream at the devs to make it for them. this game is hard, and it always should be. if the devs make this game too easy and put padding on every sharp corner, it will hurt their skilled playerbase, which if we are honest, is the backbone of their supportive players. casuals will leave for the next new thing, only the hardcore fans are gonna stay long term.

[onyx sigil]

if a dev is reading this I just wanna ask that the people join in to make this seen by them. Can we rather multiclass only the passive perks and not the skills? that would still be fair seeing how some skills are to broken on some classes. thoughts?

[rare bluff]

Can they fix rupture not working on weapons like axes, clubs ect

[umbral spindle]

I haven't been reading this channel much but I just thought I'd add my two cents to the multiclass discussion, probably with the same opinion that hundreds of others have had in here. I want to express this coherently and hopefully fairly. The current iteration of multiclass is very depressing and has made me not really feel any urge to play for multiple reasons:

1. Removal of class identity - Being able to take any amount of perks/skills from other classes has really ruined the identity of picking a class and utilizing their strengths and overcoming their weaknesses. I really thought with the right balance, this kind of perfecting one class despite their drawbacks led to a pretty fun "rock paper scissors" with still room to overcome things that may counter you on paper.

2. Being forced to level classes you have no interest in playing in order to play your "go-to" classes - With multiclassing it is necessary to level up other classes that you may have no interest in playing just to, in some cases, even stand a chance in PvP. I have no interest in playing barb but some perks could be considered vital for stuff I enjoy playing (fighter/cleric). This system somewhat forces people (although not outright) to spend a large amount of time grinding away for levels on classes they have no interest in playing, just to enable their other characters.

3. The loss of depth in strategy/planning at the top end - In high end HR games, a lot of the skill gap (from my POV) is with being able to spot what you're playing against and plan accordingly. Whether that is picking a specific room/area to fight in, playing a different "style" based on what classes you're up against or avoiding/picking fights to begin with. With multiclassing have no limits, there is virtually no ability to know what you're up against, you kind of wing it and have to deal with it as it comes unless you manage to inspect and remember every player in the lobby. This leads to a lot of scenarios where fights can be coinflipped based on some random unusual combination occuring that you could not effectively plan for which really degrades the depth of the game imo.

Some suggestions:

• Limit the amount of perks/skills you can take from other classes - even only being able to take one perk may be drastic enough in some cases to completely shape the game, being able to take any amount is destructive to say the least

• Remove/reinvent multiclassing as it stands - Even if the multiclass system was balanced and fun as it is now, I hate the precedent of having to level classes you have no intention of playing long term just to be able to be strong on the class/es you want to play. This seems like poor game philosophy.

I'm sure this will get lost in the jungle of constant stuff being posted in here. Just wanted to add to the tonne of feedback because I love this game and sad I don't have any urge to play atm with the current system.

EDIT: Thank you for your continued hard work Ironmace and willingness to experiment. I love this game and nothing really has filled the void since I took a break during multiclassing after trying it for a few days. I hope this doesn't come off like I didn't give it a fair shot. I did level all the classes I need to to make my "main" class viable at the top end but I just wanted to comment on the premise as it stood. I look forward to coming back once its fleshed out a bit or a different direction is taken 🙂

[mossy shuttle]

Thanks, you've been rather cordial yourself and clearly actually taking the time to read what I've written, clearly in the realm of actually wanting the game to flourish and progress rather than just bar out the "whiners"

"An unforgiving hardcore fantasy FPS dungeon PvPvE adventure" (taken right from the DnDer's website homepage, though I'm sure most just miss this on their way to the store page)
I know the Devs have never had the sole intent of specifically catering to the casuals (and rightfully so, cater too much and you lose vision of not only your own passion project but of the core base who've come to understand the ins and outs and have come to see the game's vision) and although it's a understandable argument to say don't cater I do got to say that you have to support/nurture them into becoming the hardcore fanbase. No one starts Day One as a Hardcore player as it's a testament to time spent long term, We can't punish those who WANT to learn to play just because "Back in my day we didn't get no hand holding by the Devs"

My understanding of player bases is that the hardcore players are always outnumbered by the casuals (who do come and go, hopefully with reasons to return), sort of being the game's main financial support as well as being the game's predatory targets of the hardcore players, keeping player numbers up allowing for show to investors and helps motivate the hardcore as their game isn't dead with 4 people in a lobby every session. There are certain designs that they've fallen into even already such as giving players meds through squire, gear capping norms, or more notoriously GbMm, that with larger numbers might not be an issue but because the community IS still so fresh and a developing player count up and down, it's turned into min max gear contest to increase rank. I'm by no means an expert on what works and what doesn't.

I think the most important thing to remember along the path is to make the game fair and rewarding and not just brutal and punishing, Games can be unforgiving and fair such as they can be hardcore and rewarding. So as long as they don't faulter too far in either which way it think they'll be fine.

[dense sentinel]

i think what the game needs is just a better quality of entry into it. we could use things like a proper tutorial, pve dungeon missions, a bestiary that shows all monsters and their weaknesses. maybe even make it so that you have to unlock information in it based on knowledge learned of the mobs, or by killing it once in a raid etc. there are lots of ways to make the game much more accessible to a wider audience while keeping the core hardcore gameplay loop at the center. i really hope they work on this kind of stuff in particular before a steam launch. i know we have arena coming soon which i think will be a great step in this direction. i play a lot of naraka bladepoint and the skill gap in that game is so high that you will literally get owned very quickly if you try to go straight into ranked, however they have a "bloodbath" mode which is basically just a free for all with respawns, that a lot of people play to learn the game and get better at it before approaching a more ranked structured gameplay

[strong grotto]

"change a lot of minds about the idea of "multi-class"
"Biggest counter argument of all is this "removes class identity"

Literally yesterday I was illed, no, OBLITERATED, by rogue, who was rocking demon armor, phantomize and two hand crossbows with poison (of course he did), blow of corruption and another warlock perk, that heals him in melee. I was outrun, outgunned, I was NOT ABLE to do ANYTHING against him. Because he has too much of move speed, action speed, could simply ghost walk through every mob, and while he continuously sprayed me with bolts, draining not only my HP, but sanity in the process, when I was able to finally jump him at the end of my wit and half HP left, he simply BoC me and stabbed my dead body, while healing back all the damage my two hits were able to do on him in a span of seconds.

"FUN"

This is not about "class identity". It is about simple fact, that there are perks and skills, that should NEVER leave the confines of the class they are assigned to. It is absolutely unbalanced, unpredictable and unwinnable situation IMace led the game to. At this point they should give us blank character sheet and allow us to level it up with no constraints into whatever broken wunderwaffen character we can.

As for this statement: "with the desired creative direction the Devs have said they're aiming for, (Dungeons and Dragons style)", Dungeons and Dragons has a LOT of restrictions towards multiclassing, towards features and abilities characters can have. Especially the older (and BEST, fight me) edition, like 3.5 rules. The "experiment" we have now has zero restrictions, zero rules and NO DRAWBACKS, like Dungeons and Dragons would have, on multiclassing. Because, yes, there were not only profits for multiclassing, but also MANY drawbacks, which we have NONE here.

Thus, multiclass needs to be drastically changed, or removed entirely.

[mossy shuttle]

#suggestion-discussion message Might I interest you in my parent post. Might be something you'd be more open to. I've never had the fortune to play D&D in a real capacity rather just playing a butchered dice roll version of the game with friends, so I'm definitely not the most educated in rules.

[manic laurel]

still not going to play. I don't want to grind for gold and levels to still have my build based on rng

[strong grotto]

The rules are pretty simple. I will give you a short version so we could stand on common ground.
Every level your character gains you make a choice at what class you are going to gain levels at.
Every class has different stat gains, like HP, different skills it is proficient at and separate progression in feats he gains. As example, barbarian gains 1d12 HP per level, while wizard gains 1d4. Barbarian gains his choice of additional abilities on certain levels and the choice of ability score improvement every 4th level IN BARBARIAN, so if you level, for any cursed reason, barbarian 3 times and wizard 9 times, you will only get his HP gain 3 times, while gaining wizard HP gain 9 times, and losing 1 ability score improvement, because you never leveled barbarian 4 times. Makes sense? Yes, you will be able to cast higher level spells and learn some fancy skills of wizard, but you are NEVER going to be as good as wizard at casting and never EVER as good as pure barbarian at painting the walls with blood of your enemies and lamentations of their women in maximum expressive style.

Now, knowing that, WHY we are allowed to have fighter, who can replace ALL his perks with rogue's, but still preserve his stat line? Which is, arguably, the superior one? And why, instead of being worse as a fighter in sheer 1 v 1 appraisal of potential pain inflicted, he can be better, than the regular fighter, when it doesn't even make sense! Like one athlete was constantly grinding and chiseling his body to a perfect fighting machine, while other was doing it only once a week, and every other day was sneaking around to become more rogue-ish, but in the end - they are not just equal in sheer body form, but the one who lazed around is even permorming better???

[zealous zenith]

Weren't the ability score improvements in 3.5e D&D tied to total character level rather than specific class level like it is in D&D 5e? Other than that everything is correct.

[strong grotto]

I was giving the example of 5ed. The current one. If I was making the example of 3.5 it would've been even more complicated, I believe, especially with all the prestige classes, that often required you to multiclass, and such.

[zealous zenith]

Ah, well, 5e has d6 wizard rather than d4, though. And you mentioned 3.5e before so I thought you were talking about 3.5e, sorry.

I'm just nitpicking the details though. Either way, the example works.

[strong grotto]

Is he d6 now? Should've checked. Thought he is still d4... Even then, the idea stands. Combining two or more into one character can give some advantages, but it will always result in character losing the edge in the specialization classes have, when pure.

[graceful rampart]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2126471438 04:04:00 . i mean this is a wizard not a barb, i wonder if this is intended but this is broken x) i would like to know experts thoughts xd

[manic laurel]

still not going to play. I don't want to grind for gold and levels to still have my build based on rng

[strong grotto]

I am not an expert. But I have an opinion and it is called "REMOVE THE MULTICLASS IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT PROPERLY".
I have also died to a warlock rocking the same 3 shields, who, basically, made me remove my HP by hitting him. "JOY".

[zealous zenith]

The Class of Theseus!

[graceful rampart]

[strong grotto]

Like, this was a warlock for me. Who could make me delete my HP myself when hitting him, that could HEAL HIMSELF with cleric spells, while throwing fireballs at me.

[graceful rampart]

The multiclassing is surely out of hand when used in good combinations, it needs a fix.

[mossy shuttle]

"but in the end - they are not just equal in sheer body form, but the one who lazed around is even performing better"
This is exactly why perhaps the better alternative is doing a "free character sheet", that allows for total freedom all the while placing all at equal footing to boot, how you choose to place your stats would determine and reflect how you're going to be able to play rather than well I guess I should've just play X with this build, leaving you feeling somewhat punished in your decision of time spent. I understand those who want classes to have a set identity and it gives them solace in the split second ability of decerning what they're opponent is capable of, however without placing so many rules and restrictions on everything making players very limited and restricting the freedom (which is something I think brings out the fun in multi-classing's current state) it's a somewhat difficult task.

[strong grotto]

I was talking about the same blank sheet character myself. Better yet - certain perks and skills should only be available to characters who level up high enough in that specific class they belong to. This would not only PRESERVE the class identity, when leveled pure, but will allow for flexibility, advantages AND drawbacks of multiclassing too.

[candid flume]

Multiclass should be deleted

[eager oyster]

The average person has a reaction time of 400 miliseconds. If that's the case how come ranged classes like Wizard and Ranger abilities take 1.2seconds from the time they are drawn/cast to the time they reach intended target. Giving everyone 3x as much time in order to duck/crouch etc. IMO range classes especially needs buffed. you've spent so many years nerfing ranger into the dirt now bard is litterally a better ranger.

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[merry lava]

remove multiclass

[little spruce]

Add extra pages to the market listing page or make it so you can buy extra pages

[wind terrace]

^

[fleet rune]

I swear every other person has a bow with multi class now. We need gap closes in this game for some amount of counterplay. I wouldn't mind taking one shot as I'm closing the distance but getting infinitely kited unless I run phantomize warlock or 40+ AGI is getting old

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/547317/add-gap-closes

[outer lotus]

^

[neon meadow]

Remove the slot machine from DaD

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[tranquil epoch]

I got a really really good suggestion, remove multiclassing

[elfin vale]

rename rogue to victim

[compact nebula]

[zenith wave]

Leaver penalty is an up-right dog-shit BS band-aid that also penalizes those who forget kits as fresh spawns and is a TERRIBLE implementation for even a band-aid. So what I back out once in a blue moon?. Just because teamers wanna team that means I suffer to? Why not do it to those who back out often enough to hit a threshold and leave the rest of us alone? So many QoL things you could do in the short-term that would bring players back; just sayin'. That was me putting it nicely.

[eager oyster]

With 800 hours invested in Ranger gameplay, and multiple top 50 Leaderboards in HR CRYPT and HR GC, my primary concern lies in addressing significant imbalances, ranging from minor disparities to profound discrepancies within the class.
One glaring issue revolves around the disproportionate draw times for Ranger's various bows—Longbow, Recurve, and Survival—ranging from 3000ms to 1250ms, significantly exceeding the average player's 400ms response time. This protracted draw time not only impedes swift action but also renders Rangers highly susceptible to anticipation tactics by opponents.
Moreover, the additional flight time of arrows exacerbates predictability, undermining Ranger viability, particularly considering the class's already inferior base statistics. Rangers endure the lowest overall base stats across all classes and exhibit the most inferior melee damage output compared to counterparts, including Wizards.
Further compounding the imbalance, Rangers face movement hindrances with bows drawn, exhibiting slower speeds compared to Rogues with dual wield and Wizards with spellbook, it crystal balls. Who experience minimal penalties while wielding their respective weapons.
The crux of Ranger's ineffectiveness stems from its systemic numerous disadvantages. Unlike other classes boasting ranged capabilities with high burst dmg or medium burst with formidable defenses, Rangers must meticulously allocate resources to multiple attributes, including movement speed, physical damage, and dexterity, max health and action speed to remain competitive. Failure to do so results in vulnerability to swift elimination, thus necessitating substantial investments in defensive measures.

One outlier of Rangers not only unrealistic "kits"-- referring to the items they wear, they cannot wear chest pieces because then they will be slower than rogues, meaning the gear they need to wear needs to be even better in quality than other classes.
Furthermore, Ranger's passive abilities and skill set pale in comparison to those of other classes. Fighters and Barbarians benefit from substantial action speed bonuses, Wizards and Warlocks enjoy potent offensive aoe ranged capabilities and versatile offensive spells. Rogues, despite their fragility, boast formidable damage output and mobility, further eclipsing Ranger utility
Ranger abilities such as Triple Shot and Multishot prove impractical in combat scenarios, lacking the requisite range or effectiveness to neutralize opponents effectively. Even the seemingly advantageous skill granting increased action speed upon drawing a bow is mitigated by the inherent need to invest in dexterity to alleviate sluggish performance.
In light of these disparities, there appears to be a systemic bias favoring certain classes, particularly Fighters and Barbarians, evidenced by their continual buffs and minimal nerfs. Such disparities, coupled with Ranger's inherent deficiencies, underscore a pressing need for comprehensive class balancing and equitable treatment by game developers.

[mossy kettle]

remove multiclassing thanks

[zenith wave]

The simple fact that a magic base kit magic staff can physically kill a fighter with one tap is something they need to address, let alone all ^ - I'm speechless.

I mean unless he was cheating but that's a whole other story.

[eager oyster]

It just won't work @zenith wave they didn't do any Quality Assurance testing, and forced the players to be the ginnie pigs of the developers ideas.

This is proven by the fact they don't even (QAA), quality assurance assess there updates in regards to rollbacks and implementing QoL. Like fixing the Fortune Tellers Reset bug not rewarding you back your tokens. Not only was it a gold sink but it pissed many players off. Ontop of that this game turned from a PvE PvP dungeon crawler to a straight up PvP game with no class identity. Not to mention Rangers are the worse possible class you can pick. There utility is useless in the face of not having a speciality. They can't be a glass cannon because all there damage was nerfed. They can't shoot arrows from distance because the allocation of stats is higher than every other class. Making them not potent in any 1 area such as attk speed for spear gameplay or bow draw time. And lowest str with minimalist Phys dmg bonus %. Not only do I need to invest 1k minimum on a bare bones kit. Which is roughly 2-3 gob caves. But it's also such a bad kit it hardly passes for just PvE clear. Let alone forget about outrunning and spacing out any class.

Heck this is even without considering multiclass. Now that there's multiclass rangers stand no freaking shot.

[zenith wave]

And then listen to the wrong minority group instead of the whole. Polls they take are a joke as well 😦 The whole system they have in place could be done way better.

[long blade]

for the love of god increase the drop chance on wendigo claws or halve the requirement for these quests

[dark dust]

Creep is such a useless perk.
If you want to make it useful and make Rogues have a purpose, make it open doors silently !!

[neon meadow]

Creep and stealth movement should be 1 perk

[forest tundra]

Please update the test server! allows for a more accurate test environment

[graceful frost]

Preach

[jolly sky]

how about making the game playable for solo players

[sharp vault]

REVERT MULTICLASS ALREADY

[forest tundra]

Make the test server universally available and keep it 1 week ahead of the main server in patches! No more untested patches! this will stop the rollback issue, or at least significantly reduce it. It will also actually make it a test environment and allow people to actually test content and gather data.

[round patio]

remove multiclassing

[hazy pilot]

that’s the dumbest shit i’ve ever heard

[frigid berry]

I think levels should be 50 xp like the test server, it was way better, I am feeling burnt out from grinding.

[frigid berry]

like it

I like the multi classing, I think we should listen to the silent majority that enjoys this update, ive liked so many updates but never spoke up.

[kind cave]

listen to this guy, I've turned into an anti-fan so I love suggestions that destroy the game

[warm sedge]

LOL silent majority. The game has lost thousands of players within a week.

[astral jewel]

Nu uh

[last shard]

Bring ruins back

[woven oxide]

Make it so you can create more characters for Multi classing to experiment with different builds. My friend plays this game a lot and has mutiple characters with stash tabs, quests and loot. He now has to delete one to create another class to learn from. Shouldn't be capped at 6 IMO. Maybe make it 10...

[woven oxide]

yes

[quick moss]

Could someone explain why we have #lfg channels for actual geographical regions instead of game server location?

[old zenith]

after playing it for awhile i think there could be a simple fix to help with class identity and lower some silly combos ive seen

rather then Multi-classing it would be better to have a "sub class" feature this would make it easier to identify what they may have and ease up stacking things like Slayer, Robust, Anti-magic, crossbow mastery. with a skill like Smite

by having it limited to picking one class as a "sub-class" would make it so you have to worry about grinding a little less as you can focus on your prefered

None-the-less i have personally been enjoying the multi-class system but still have to admit on some moderate problems, class identity being one of them.

[strong grotto]

I wish I could upvote in here... +1

[granite plinth]

can multiclass go away please ? legit ruining the game

[formal flume]

Can we make it so hunter traps actually give the player kill please?

[glossy arch]

remove multiclass

[feral nebula]

||SPIDERS SHOULD TAKE GOOMBA STOMP DAMAGE THIS IS RIDICULOUS AND ITS BEEN RIDICULOUS FOR TOO LONG.||

[fossil radish]

when are they going to nerf the no-armor builds and get rid of the multi-class system?

[strong grotto]

Damn... Seriously, how DUMB you have to be, Iron Mace, to implement this stupidity that is multiclass? Go screw yourself with that kind of game!

[tulip venture]

Sure it’s like that because that’s how they made it, hope this helps!

[astral jewel]

@keen onyx remove multi classing

[jolly sky]

can you make the game playable for solo ??

[hallow flare]

No plz. As a mostly solo player, they need to stop catering to us tbh

[chilly snow]

@sdf remove Multi classing so me and my buddies can play again

[strong grotto]

LMAO! Imagine a game, that you will absolutely REQUIRE to play with someone? Sure, bud! randoms are always so-so helpful and chill, and your friends (if you have any) are ALWAYS available to play with you!
This game SHOULD and MUST be playable solo 1st and foremost.

[hallow flare]

Nice strawman, It very much is playable solo right now. In fact, you have to play solo to do a good chunk of the quests, which is a big part of why my friends don’t play as much

[strong grotto]

I agree. Multiclass SUCKS, remove it. Game is literal definition of chaos, where you are either go for some minmax build with perks or become a food for those who have it. This experiment failed, @keen onyx

[hallow flare]

They should put perks in categories, then add restrictions. Like, maybe you can only have 2 damage perks and you must take 1 utility perk or something

[strong grotto]

Ah, sure. When you are required to go and kill, visit, collect something from the map that is for duo/trio teams, you are absolutely, in no way, shape or form is held back by fact, that you are OUTNUMBERED.

[hallow flare]

Better then vice versa, where teams are required to break up and play solo. I’d rather it be more difficult then impossible

[strong grotto]

No. REMOVE multiclassing. Just REMOVE it. if they want to have some form of build variability, then ADD MORE PERKS, add subclasses, add more classes, but DO NOT add multiclass! Even idiot should've understand, that you simply CAN NOT balance perk or skill for one class and expect it be balanced on the other, FFS!!!

[strong grotto]

Now THIS is a strawman. Because teams are absolutely useless, when break up to do some questing!

[hallow flare]

You and I know that isn’t going to happen though, multiclassing is going to stay in some form or another, it just needs to go through a lot of balancing from where it is right now. And teams can’t queue into goblin caves, but solos can go where they please. I’d rather something be more difficult for me to do then it be impossible

[tiny wigeon]

Imagine a game that requires you to play with someone?
Hmm, like dota ? League? CS? Bro , a BUNCH of games require you to team up, what u on about

[tiny wigeon]

Again, the entitlement of PINGING the dev, holy .
Like your word must go directly to dev ear, dude , use the system like everyone else.
I’m sure your parents brought u up making you think that you are a special little snowflake, but nobody cares what u have to say, especially when it comes with idiocy attached to it

[hallow flare]

Bring back the 5 min rotation system plz

[strong grotto]

Piss off, white knight. Go bother someone who cares! Your dog, if it ain't abandoned you already for an owner it can stay with in one room and not chocke from your farts!

[low egret]

Add PvE mode. I want to fight bosses more regularly

[normal quarry]

Bard needs a banjo

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[hallow flare]

They could do it like sea of thieves did, where you can but rewards are greatly reduced

[low egret]

i just want to pactice bosses without going though the gauntlet of sweats idc about rewards lol

[hallow flare]

Actually, bot lobbies where they make AI players for people to fight would be cool too. Could help with this games learning curve too. And they could just program the AI players to avoid boss rooms. They’d have to make rewards suck though, like only poors and whites and rarely greens

[low egret]

They dont have to make a PvE mode rewards suck..

[hallow flare]

They kinda do, because the core of this game is PvPvE. The “rewards” for a PvE mode would be questing and the knowledge you gain

[low egret]

theres still HR version so there would have to be higher color items in the lobbies. i see what youre going for though

maybe lower xp gain or something to that effect? there are ways to balance for sure.

[hallow flare]

Ya, it wouldn’t come out until after epic release at the very least because they don’t want to split players away from PvP. In the meantime, if you just want to practice, the test servers are basically PvE atm

[covert shore]

Make game more dungeon exploring friendly. Pvp is so skewed especially with multiclassing. Can't enjoy the world when you're running from teams of rogues and buffballs attempting quests in 2-3 man dungeons as a solo. Pvp is fun but so forced it makes the experience very dull.

Can also never attempt more extreme content for lack of time (wall) and pvp. Not to me tion what would it matter if you're stomped right after. Just my 2c

Stats for pve instead of pvp might help this. Getting 2 tapped or op spider jumping away from attacks is no fun

[zealous zenith]

Just a reminder that if you would like the suggestions to be seen by the devs, you should make a suggestion post on their website. Check out the pins for that!

[elfin vale]

remove multiclassing

rename rogue to victim

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[granite plinth]

remove slot machine

[outer lotus]

^

[graceful frost]

Bros acting like rogues bad rn. The class is perfectly fine

[outer lotus]

If you think rogue is a victim you are doggy at the game

[hallow flare]

Add “izer” as the suffix and I’d get behind that change lol. I agreed with you up until the buffs it got this wipe

[elfin vale]

everyone who just replied to me are goofy as hell, rogue is the second most low stat character in the game, meaning in a game where anyone can do anything, ‘classes’ in the main menu are just stat bots - and rogue is low as fuck. this isnt even about abilities anymore, its about how multiclassing champions barb or fighter only when doing melee builds, not an 80 hp class

[boreal kiln]

Remove the cancer multiclass.
Remove the cancer gear score shit.
Bring back ruins.
Let us use our gear below lvl 20.

These 4 changes would bring the game back to some sort of an enjoyable state, but right now it's a complete joke

[tulip hill]

Rogue's stats make them biased to be harriers, but with the number of speed boosts and ranged attacks, they can get countered pretty hard without the enemy even needing to necessarily build to counter them specifically. Its why stacking flat damage bonuses and landmining is such a popular strat; because unless you are fighting someone who doesn't have the tools to contest you kiting them you have very little chance. Despite their really good dex and agility, their low strength and vigor make most of their builds better on a more well rounded statlines

that said, I have found one unique thing rogues are possibly the best at; dagger slayer
sure anyone can pick up weapon mastery, but rogue can duel wield daggers without it and have more dex than bard (the only other class that can naturally use two daggers)
the extra perk slot from not needing weapon mastery can go a long way, potentially outweighing the downsides of being very squishy

[elfin vale]

i have about 1100 hrs on rogue specifically, im very aware of its ins and outs in this putrid multiclass system and mathematically they are bad in comparison to others and far less potential - and theyve been bad for a long long time (about 4 months), and no I'm not counting the double handcrossbow poison rupture method because that is a meme build that the devs won't keep in the game as theyve already expressed. a melee rogue build that isnt wearing 5k+ gear doesnt exist unless it's a landmine, and that isnt healthy for the game and is boring. rogue is weak and needs a whole revamp, nothing else to argue

[tulip hill]

What do you define as "landmine"
different people are more or less specific in what they consider landmining and clearing that up will allow me to understand your position better

[elfin vale]

max damage glass cannon build where you find a dead mob trail and either position to 1-2 shot someone out of hide around a corner, or slow walk all over the map and go invis behind a door being opened and do the previously mentioned atrocity

[stark ginkgo]

❕ 🇷 🇪 🇲 🇴 🇻 🇪 ❕ 🇲 🇺 🇱 🇹 🇮 🇨 🇱 🇦 🇸 🇸 ❕

[tulip hill]

I see
so something like having your team bait the enemy into you, would that be landmining in your book? or is it not since the victim made the active decision to walk towards known danger, simply not knowing there was additional danger in the form of a concealed rogue?

[elfin vale]

i wouldnt count that because the same could be done with any melee class, the others would need an invis pot (which is more balanced bc 1)u need knowledge to drink and 2)it makes loud sound when used

[tulip hill]

understandable
so you're not against more tactical usage of rogue's abilities, but rather you dislike the reliance on attacking those who are completely unaware

this has got me thinking about rogue as a concept. One of their most common archetypes is that of the assassin, though such an archetype is very hard to balance in a pvp setting
take tf2's spy for example; they have the tools to get in and kill, but surviving after that is the most difficult part. Many of the spy's unlockable weapons enhance the spy's ability to get away after a kill, generally at the cost of making that kill harder to get in the first place in one way or another. Dying in tf2 isn't the end of the world, just a short respawn timer and you're back in to the same game. But suddenly dying in Dark and Darker carries a much harsher penalty and much more frustration. Perhaps instead of rogue being defined by their ability to assassinate a target, they could be defined by being able to get away. They already kite well enough with the hand crossbow, what if instead we somehow enabled rogues to be able to dip into and out of melee with relative safety compared to other melee classes. Tumbling almost does that, but its effectiveness is very dubious because of rogue's very short melee range and tumbling's rather restricted applicability

tldr, what if we made rogue more into a melee skirmisher that can quickly and safely punish anyone who doesn't pay close attention to them

[sinful loom]

Training Room: You can enter and test your stats, abilities, and skills. There could be more throwable items, punching bags, or even some mobs that serve as punching bags.

Skill and Ability Pages: Have a system where you can create sets, skill pages, perks, and skills. For example, my first set is focused on PvE, the second set is focused on battles in hell, the third is for PvP, making it more dynamic for the player's intuition.

With the arrival of more character levels, it would be interesting to either have more slots to place perks or have more perks or skills to justify so many levels.

And finally, hahah character creation, it would be very cool to be able to customize only the face, as it makes the game more interesting in my opinion.

Another idea, I don't know if you've had it before, but when I had an idea for a game similar to Dark and Darke with a friend of mine, we thought of something cool. Creating skins for each part of the clothing or armor. For example, I bought a set of German knight clothing with engraved clothes and coat of arms, every time you put each part of the armor in the game, it will use the skin you bought. Separate parts also give players more customization freedom.

[frigid berry]

I dont think multiclassing is making people leave, I think its the grind, can we lower the xp to 50 per level? Since levels are high this would be good.

everyone can easily access multiclassing and the grind doesnt feel as bad.

[whole bone]

I think XP is fine. I leveled a fighter to 30 in like 4 hours of playing in norms. It's really easy...just kill ai and open/break stuff. PVP gets no xp, so just avoid it until lvl 30

[graceful frost]

the issue isnt the xp to level 30 that super easy. but if you want a usable amount of tokens it takes a lot of levels and play time

[frigid berry]

thought they changed that?

[frigid berry]

thats why 50 xp per level would help, in the play test it was so smooth and I enjoyed myself. Im going off playtest experience.

[faint dirge]

rogue has good base stats

[whole bone]

Problem with the max move speed nerf, is rogue is only closer to max, but anyone can pretty easily close that stat difference on agility and move speed.

and the low strength and vigor means you do low damage compared to similarly geared barbs or fighters, and can take much less

and rogue gear is very low pdr comparatively. You're better off as a slayer fighter with rogue abilities.

[faint dirge]

thats just not true

if you combine knw will and resc rogue has 40 dead stats and fighter 45

barb has the best tank base stats and rogue the best physical damage carry base stats
also a lot of dex > a lot of str

[whole bone]

dex and agi only work with rogue because they need the fast attack speed with the low damage daggers, and their damage is comped by their perks and skills. When other str based classes can equip those perks and skills, it's exponentially higher damage, and landmine barb with a felling axe one-shots pretty much anyone in just greens and one or two blues

[faint dirge]

did not know that rogues have no acces to slayer

[whole bone]

they do, but the base strength of 12 really cucks the damage

Sorry, i lied. Base strength of 8

[faint dirge]

i mean dex is still jsut better

[whole bone]

dont need dex when you one-shot

[faint dirge]

it is also easier to get power than action speed, because you can roll 5/3 power on gear and only 3/3 dex

[whole bone]

dex is good for trading 2 lower-damage hits for the enemies 1 big hit. Now enemies can just land 1 bigger hit

[faint dirge]

why would you ever do that?

[whole bone]

literally the point of higher action speed is to get in more hits quickly

[faint dirge]

vs any barb/figher you just perma kite with hcb

[whole bone]

with the move speed nerfs, thats a lot harder now. and that's entirely my point

[faint dirge]

but the movespeed of barbs/fighters is also nerfed

[tender seal]

welp, "Rng and Rnger" mini game didn't work out - guess I'll stop playing for two days

[faint dirge]

if anything the ms nerfs benefit rogue since rogue had to roll damage on rings while melee could roll movespeed instead

[whole bone]

its not, they nerfed max move speed to 330. Everyone has the same base ms.

but now as a barb you can run ambush, hide and sprint

[whole bone]

also, the point isnt that rogues suck. It's that other classes now do rogue better with the advent of multiclass.

[faint dirge]

yeah but the rogue playstyle of assasinating is still better done by rogues

[alpine violet]

It is very unfortunate that some people are getting super lucky with the multiclass abilities/perks that they want and others are getting unlucky. Please put in a refresh button for the roll per token, that way we can more of a chance to get the multiclass we want.

[whole bone]

again. not at all. ambush is +50% phys dam bonus. +50% of a statted out rogue bumps that to like 70 damage on a headshot. A felling axe soars to like 190 damage. they just unhide and one-tap literally anyone. Instead of having to land 3-5 hits to kill

[whole bone]

I think most of it is for testing and multiclassing probably won't stick exactly as it is currently. I feel like "dud" rolls can still make some pretty monsterous builds, even if it's not exactly what you're looking for

[worn lava]

didn't they the devs talk about removing or lowering the slow that happens after a hit what happened

[alpine violet]

I know the intention and my feedback is put in a refresh button to make a little less painful of RNG. refresh button would allow more choices and less Copium

[ripe tangle]

There is it cost 500 gold

[woven oxide]

You clearly don't know how to play rogue. That's fine, don't if you're not good at it

[last escarp]

Please add spell book to every class and nerf the dmg spells for non spell cast classes I just want arcane rogue without having to use weapon mastery

[compact plume]

stop crying about multiclass, level you characters to do it bruh

[foggy sun]

they should add legendary ale or more drinks with odd stat effects

[polar bough]

Hear me out...being able to change names

[foggy sun]

barbarian shouts should change depending on race

[gilded ether]

+1

Have you ever tried lighting a torch underwater?

Also, how long can we stay underwater without breathing, especially in murky pools or frozen ponds.

Can we jump from a 10-15m high ledge without harm in this game?

[granite plinth]

day 4 of saying multiclass is awful, please remove it

[gilded ether]

How many full plate chestpieces one can carry? Lets say 7, realisticly!? And how long can a guy run with said 7 times 100lbs chestpieces?

7 full plate chestpieces fills my backpack, same for 90 grey rings

[foggy sun]

chest armour is not that heavy tho

[gilded ether]

Is the talent tree coming soon? Like, in "just a little longer".

[foggy sun]

like 15 pounds is "heavy" chest armour

[gilded ether]

Yeah, halloween ones

[foggy sun]

like a full set of plate armour made from well-tempered steel would weigh around 15–25 kg (33–55 lb). And that's if your wearing all of it, legs head pants etc

historically full plate is not that heavy XD

[gilded ether]

Probably true. Then how long can a man run in the caves barefeet with 250lbs of plates in his backpack?

Anyway, sry, im just so disapointed they spend work hours on multiclassing while very important flaws are still unadressed.

[foggy sun]

yea, but dont forget to much realism can make a game feel like a slog.

[gilded ether]

Can we shoot and pull a goblin from the other side of the room without aggroing his 3-4 buddies?

[foggy sun]

ice caves is bad for that

[gilded ether]

Is there a side effect of being 10% health vs being full?

[foggy sun]

lizards need hats

[gilded ether]

I like the aggro from kobold budies in ice caves, i feel thats a start. Tho they should aggro at start, not just when their buddy dies

Couldnt lizzards wear leather caps?

[foggy sun]

sadly no, cant wear anything

[gilded ether]

Too rigid for their heads i guess

[foggy sun]

cloth hoods would be easy to put on

I wish they would revamp the lizard to have more widespread use

[gilded ether]

Imagine removing a leather armor from a bloody dead body and putting it on. Should take 2-3 seconds, right, depends on ressourcefullness

[foggy sun]

also bard specific fencing sword would be cool

[gilded ether]

Can you hurt a skeleton with a rapier or an arrow, or poison?

[glossy arch]

remove multiclass and gbmm

[rich veldt]

Remove multiclass and gbmm

[unborn eagle]

Remove multiclass and gbmm

[gilded ether]

Yeah, remove multiclass and gbmm. Introduce skill tree

[stuck spruce]

Please IM get your head together and dont bring such bullshit like multiclassing into the game, besides the dungeons being chaotic as hell right now because you have no idea who you are fighting against (could be just a normal rogue but could be a slayer rogue too or a rogue with divine protection), it kills the whole sense of having unique classes with unique abilities and perks if everyone can have any perk by rolling for it anyways, just give us a proper skilltree with maybe some unique abilities/perks for each class and some general abilities/perks that could be useful for every class - u can connect that also maybe with quests like lets say u want headshot proficiency for the Ranger, now u have to give 10 headshots to other Players in the dungeon
Just my opinion on multiclassing
Greetings 🙂
P.s. still love the game but the love could vanish for me and many others if multiclassing stays in the game like it is right now

[unborn eagle]

100% agree

[tulip hill]

If we think of the classes as being on a sort of web, where each neighbor on that web shares aspects with each other, we could then place each class's perks and abilities around them, creating a skill web rather than a tree
this way, while hypothetically possible to make your way from rogue to cleric, unless you see a path that happens to get you other things you want, its probably not going to be worth it
while this would maintain almost the same potential for wacky builds, it would tone down the rate of running into crazy combos since to transform a class into something wildly different it will cost exponential investment rather than just getting lucky

[granite plinth]

remove rng and time gates

[compact plume]

well, in any case i like multiclass, also im not playing meta build so idk why the people are crying to much, you can still check his skills/perks on the tavern

[nocturne phoenix]

because things like rogue with +20 on hit dmg from passive stacking in gob caves is cancer. because sprint rangers is cancer. because clerics having chain lightning in their back pocket to grief after you kill their frontline.. its just stupid.

[compact plume]

get anti magic, or iron will

[ripe turtle]

What do you guys think of perks or something similar to adjust the moveset of your weapons?

[tulip hill]

that would be pretty neat, though if that is all a perk does I'm not so sure
while some swing patterns can be more advantageous than other, it also largely comes down to preference
while stuff like Spear Mastery and Weapon Mastery act as a sort of perk tax to get specific weapon on specific classes, if you like a particular weapon you have multiple way to use that weapon with different opportunity costs associated with it
so perhaps something similar, like something in the training tab, would work better for stuff like that

[ripe turtle]

Yes, I was thinking a separate system that doesn't take away from perks/skills, but it's not broken, unbalanced or frustrating in PvP. For example, what if I want my Zweihander to do a thrust attack first or have a charged attack with a club.

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[tulip hill]

there is definitly balance reason as to why some weapons have the particular attack pattern they do
not even considering the "combo" damage bonus, stuff like how the 2nd attack of the spear has slightly less range or the rather wide swing of the 2nd and 3rd attack of the longsword making it hard to follow up a stab when fighting in a doorway
I feel like any alternate attack patterns would need to be designed very deliberately, allowing players to just reorder the existing attacks would be interesting but very chaotic and probably lead to a lot of weapons getting their numbers adjusted

[long blade]

There has to be some sort of buff for killing cyclops or troll. Something similar to killing a boss in hunt showdown. It is very strange how it just so common to be third partied with no benefit, they need to revisit the whole GC boss dynamic.

[sharp kettle]

Killing boss doesn't mean you should get some buff imo. They are easy to kill

[foggy sun]

trolls blood drink up

[long blade]

ok

[sharp kettle]

It is true that you have to kill about 2 people to secure the boss loot tho

[ripe turtle]

I think it would be an interesting approach after Ironmace manage to balance the classes to a point it's worth testing. Right now multiclassing is just straight up chaos, no class identity, no specific roles, insane meta builds etc not to mention some of the skills/perks don't even work properly with other classes (Bard Slayer with a shield).

[granite plinth]

remove rng and timegates

[night grove]

i love when i work a full week i just want to get on a try multiclass but a warlock just chases me for five min and i cant get anywhere i wonder why this game is dying guys

[quaint ivy]

Multiclassing in DND is fine, because it's not a PVP game.
Multiclassing in a PVP game ruins abilities for their original class identities and becomes meta driving points to make broken builds where powers benefit other classes over their originals because of their starting stats / ability synergies.
This broadens the gap between casuals and none casuals.
The GBMM having only 2 brackets atm makes this feel even worse, on the lower end of things, people are just mid maxing bis stats on crap gear to utilize these broken multiclassing combinations. the game was heading in such a good direction, before multiclass was released. i know it's testing, it's just my owinion, and what i say is true and just. lol

[granite plinth]

is this sarcasm? we play a full loot pvp game buddy

[graceful frost]

????

[sterile agate]

Please buff the range on judgment at least to 8m at the state it’s in right now with half of the players running sprint it’s useless and it was already a buggy skill that doesn’t work half the time you try to target someone

[unborn terrace]

this right there. judgement has wonky casting even if you are in range and on target

[graceful frost]

doesnt need a ranger buff. just needs to be more consistent. even now its pretty good alr

[astral cairn]

Remove multiclass and give each class a skill tree with something like 3 branchs - Wizard Elemental Wizard Arcane Wizard Warmage Ranger Sniper Ranger Scout etc... Multiclass only benefits tryhards and its 1000% hard to balance then a skill tree, the propose of the game is to know who u are fighting and how to fight but with multiclass you are fighting a rogue alot hp fighting like a fighter or a barbarian with phase, there no need for something like this.

[ripe terrace]

guys! there should be a 247 stream on youtube/twitch where we could watch people get slayed

[tulip venture]

I hate just clapping at people it ruins fights so often

[dark dust]

Double EXP weekends.

[dense rune]

I agree completely. Another example would be the branches for Fighter would be a Slayer path, Shield/Parry path, and even a heavily armored path

[astral cairn]

Then when you see a figher you know he can be a tank a dps or the counter thing

its easy to understand if you are a new player or old player

Other Suggestion: Give us After Match Stats. how much damage give to player: 10 Axe damage 20 fireball damage etc...

[balmy prawn]

For Demonform:
a slight redesign of the arms is needed as vision is severely impaired when attacking in demonform. Often times i think i've killed the player because they 'drop' after i hit them, but they just ducked out of vision because i cant see them past the arms

[unique seal]

I would highly enjoy if craftable items/ore/ingots/powders etc sold for more gold to the Collector as a way to incentivise mining it / potentially having another way to gain money and or AP for HR. (A stack of Silver Ingots is 10g to him currently)

Another thing if possible would be having the 'post game AP report' active for normal games to just for curiosity/exp being visualised sake :)

Crystal Dagger I think would be a very cool weapon and please allow it to have a different moveset than the Rondel

[glossy arch]

remove multiclass

[rich veldt]

Remove multiclass and gbmm

[glossy arch]

remove gear based matchmaking, going in naked against full blues purples makes no sense

make ping lock stronger, there is no reason why chinese players should be playing on EU

[granite plinth]

Remove rng and timegates

[sour sandal]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[granite plinth]

great patch

ty IM for daily reset

[crimson drift]

Loot based matchmaking worsens the experience for not as high skilled players. When you grind your blue gear in low roller and go into high roller, the chance to get instantly destroyed by higher ranked and more skilled people with the same loot level is pretty high. I'm normally around the rank Apprentice and since the loot based matchmaking update I instantly loose all my loot in the first high roller match I play. Since then me and my Friends have a rough time to get motivated to play at all when up ranking and keeping the gear feels close to impossible for us.

[granite plinth]

just make GS visible ingame

day 5 of saying fuck multiclass

[astral cairn]

PLZ STOP WITH MULTICLASS GIVE US SKILL TREE WITH SUB CLASSES:

Ranger:
Ranger sniper- More far More Damage, Less Arrow Fall off, More Speed or Zoom Aim
Ranger scout- Sonar Arrow to reveal enemies, Mark Enemies get more damage, Move speed to scout, Arrow split
Ranger Nature - Arrow with poison that slow, Arrow that explode a poison cloud that make dizzy, Arrow that create a vine wall, Healing abilites to help allies

Mage:
Mage Elemental- Buff to elemental skill, give more dots, slow etc...
Mage Arcane- Buff arcane cast speed etc...
WarMage- Bonk mage etc...

Samething to other classes, this way is easier to balance alot less bugs because its made for the class, easier to new player and pro to understand wich class they are fighting and how to play along, make the class very diferent with alot of play style there will be meta but its easier to solve because you can buff and nerf only the sub class and dont need to be worried that if you change the skill for ranger will ruin the fighter build that use the skill.
HOpe you guys like the idea, maybe i will make a more good looking graphic about this with all class and ideas.

I already write this here but i think morei write maybe they see

[hallow flare]

Ya, gbmm sounds like a good idea until you consider this, just bring back level matchmaking, at least for norms. Sucks having to level a class and get stomped by a class abomination, saying this as someone who is usually the abomination. Then for HR just go back to ranked based matchmaking

[crimson drift]

I think the multiclass system is a data gathering method for the developer to know what works and what doesn't work to make some kind of skill tree later on. This is my assumption based on the wording of the patch notes regarding multiclass system and the fact that the spells, perks and abilitys you get are random to get more information than if you would just be able to take one of your choice. This way you maybe get good combinations that no one would consider to pick on the first view for devs and players.

[astral cairn]

I understand what you are saying but for me is waste of time and people, IM is not a tripleA dev company, so why waste time with a system that is millions of time more hard then a skill tree and has the same objective? For example: Rogue Ambush, for rogue nice for barb op for ranger op for wizard trash and goes on, so they will need to think how to balance a perk for like 6 classes and if you nerf it because one classe for another will become trash etc... If the point is make a class different skill tree with sub class will do it and you can focus only in the class problem, like i said rogue with 3 sub classes oh one is meta? so lets buff the other or nerf and this will not fuck up other classes.

[floral herald]

I will not be returning to the game until the "kill x class" quests are removed.

[ashen badge]

Understandable

Also make quests account wide.

[floral herald]

^

[strong grotto]

"As an experiment to make the High-Roller experience truly high risk, we are testing a system where party member names are no longer displayed to allies. "
Thanks for providing me with another reason to NOT play HR, haha!

[somber wind]

They already said a long time ago they want to do both with Sub Classes not being multiclassable (Could still multiclass with the character but you cant move Sub Class perks/skills/spells onto others).

(Long time ago being more than a year)

[strong grotto]

I agree 100%. Quests MUST BE account wide. It is absolute stupidity they aren't.

[somber wind]

I would prefer AFFINITY being account wide so we can get the rewards on each character and have something to do on each character. (Affinity is what affects what merchants do)

[ashen badge]

Also maybe just maybe not make getting white gear in the squire the most prestigious achievement in the game?... lmao
I could see 50 or 75 affinity being fine. But 100?.. bro

[hallow flare]

This is something literally 0 people disagree with, wild it hasn’t been done yet

[somber wind]

I disagree with it. Quests shouldn't be account-wide, affinity should be.

[strong grotto]

"PLZ STOP WITH MULTICLASS GIVE US SKILL TREE WITH SUB CLASSES:"
Have you read announcement?
"we hear your concerns about the loss of class identity with the current implementation of the multi-class system. With the lessons we are learning from this system we are working on building a more fleshed out but limited multi-class system for a future season"

[hallow flare]

Why 🤔

[astral cairn]

Its nice if they were a TripleA Dev. i graduate in Game Design and the Biggest Lesson i learn is: Don´t try to make a GTA with 10 dollar budget. Its nice to have both but which one is easier to make? Its nice they want to have alot of things but they need to focus in thing that can be completed in a OK amount of time.

[ashen badge]

Mostly semantics.
Affinity is really the only thing that matters.
But I get your point in the distinction.
Cause quests give rewards so you can get the rewards on all characters but if you don't care about em you have the affinity still

[somber wind]

So Affinity is mostly what people do quests for, it unlocks crafting and buffs the shops themselves. Quests allow for people to have something to do and feel a sense of progression, especially the XP from it for leveling (which affects multiclassing) but Affinity grind itself is VERY annoying and not rewarding.

[astral cairn]

Quests need to be team wide and alot of problems can be solved

[ashen badge]

Yeah I think I'm on board with specifically affinity being account wide.

Then let the squire only need 50-75 affinity for white gear and quest system/squire is pretty much perfect.
Not including all the cringe quests lol

[somber wind]

Exactly

[hallow flare]

What about squire gear, we’d still have the same problem with needing to repeat quests on every character

[ashen badge]

Affinity is what unlocks squire gear

[somber wind]

I think specific rewards could be account wide and be shown on the reward itself in the quest. For example the Stash tab from that one quest could be account wide. That said, astro points out yeah it's affinity.

Anything from quests that feels "mandatory" to unlock on other characters should be account wide unlocks but anything that is just loot or materials are per character.

[ashen badge]

The squire is a great system imo but I feel like the affinity requirements for just white gear is way too high. Doesnt make any sense.

[strong grotto]

It is not like I am against whites on 75 affinity, on the contrary, BUT! What's the reason for pushing to 100 affinity then? Greens for HR? Might work.

[hallow flare]

Huh, good to know, but then you’d be rewarded for not doing the harder quests and just doing the first chains on all your characters. Plus if the quests were account wide, progression on the same quest across characters would be easier then just affinity being account wide

[ashen badge]

100 affinity unlocks more stuff in the merchant plus you still get the quest rewards
Plus service options

[somber wind]

Crafting, Quality of items sold from Merchants, etc. is tied to Affinity

[ashen badge]

I'm sure they'd make it so you couldn't just cheese the system and do the simple quests across multiple characters for affinity
Itd be like a one time account bound reward

[somber wind]

I also want to note that by saying the distinction we also signal to the developers why some people want Quest rewards account wide as Affinity is the pain point and not completing quests themselves.

[somber wind]

I would say that's how it should be. You can only get the Affinity reward from a quest once per quest.

[ashen badge]

Well I think some quests themselves are problematic.
For instance as someone pointed out earlier.
The "Kill X Class" quests are really cringe.
Not only because a lot of the time you're countered by that class.
But a class like Bard is extremely rare.
I'm fine with "Kill players" but not "Kill X Class"

[hallow flare]

But why wouldn’t you want progression to be across classes? A few weeks ago, it was frustrating me that I had all 5 ranger kills on my rogue, but not on my warlock who I’ve been maining this wipe

[crimson drift]

I think to make it possible to give all classes all perks, abilitys and skills and give 3 choices at once and make a graph that displays all results the players gatherd while playing and analyze it to get a dev perspective perfect skill tree from the beginning should be a far better optimized way to use resources rather than letting a balance team decide what is best for each class based on feeling. This also solves the problem to change the tree over and over where the playerbase is constantly adjusting to and where groups are getting mad over changing the trees over and over again what also consts more resources to the most people happy. I think that one data based perfect thought through skill system is the best way to optimize resources and is a better base for argumenting about why the devs made what changes rather than based on feelings.

[somber wind]

That's not to say that there isn't quests that need reworking, but that's a different problem than "I never want to do any quest ever again".

[ashen badge]

Huh?
It would be across classes.
You'd get the affinity.
You just couldn't get the affinity from the same quest multiple times

[ashen badge]

Well right now I'm at the point of not wanting to do any quest ever again because they are just SO damn tedious and having to do them on every class is insult to injury lmao.
But yeah I get what you're saying

[hallow flare]

I mean quest progression, within a single quest

[somber wind]

Yeah but as soon as you do them all if Affinity is the only marker for progression with vendors then you never actually have to do them again if you don't want to, you have the choice to beable to.

[ashen badge]

Ohh like I killed a ranger on my warlock and then killed a ranger on my barbarian. I want both those kills to count towards the quest.

Thats fair. I'm not sure

[night current]

@ashen badge your kinda right but youll get em... when those kill quest dropped for people it was pure murder now that most people have them done, we are chumming it up with new buddies

[strong grotto]

My dude, I play normals most of the time, I DESPISE the HR. If I get the whites for simple 75 affinity - I am done. I will not look into those quests anymore, lol. Majority of the player base are like that, casually go in, with friends or solo, get some runs in, get some loot in - get out or die, repeat again.
So, my suggestion would be to:

1. make quests and affinity account wide
2. REWORK the quests! The difficulty spread of those quests has NO SENSE, it is often easier to finish quests late down the line, then those in the beginning, LMAO! There should never be quests like "kill X amount of Y class and Z class", or, at least, to make those kills be checked for WHOLE TEAM.
3. reduce the RNG drop requirements for finishing those quests.