suggestion-discussion

[abstract swallow]

there's no shame in taking a break from a game, especially one that hasn't released yet tbh

[terse pier]

there are plenty of people who share my sentiment, the developers have said matchmaking is coming up next on their todo list so we will see what they think I suppose

[storm blade]

okay but i just lost a 1500 kit someone is happpy

[ember moon]

I use to play like 6 hours a day at least now im at like 2 and thats me taking a break lol. i love this game, even as it is now i enjoy it overall. its just this one thing thats holding it back. I dont see how people think seperating lobbies would kill the game when its looking liike the exact oppisite is truw

[terse pier]

literally wtf is the point in playing a broke character right now? you just have to avoid all pvp every game until you hoard together some gear and that's boring imo

[rigid prawn]

Where did they state this? They said they want to address the gear disparity issues but we’ve been seeing them do that for the past couple weeks lol.

They specifically mentioned that gbmm or matchmaking of any similar vein was not in their scope in the q&a

[winged mortar]

Game needs to be less loot based. Loot should only at maximum grant an interpreted 33% advantage

[stuck perch]

They said recently that they wouldn't add matchmaking. I don't know where you're getting that it's next on their todo list. Or they lied/misled one of us.

[eager rampart]

I think for quality of life, gold pouches with left drag click should remove the money from your first interacted pouch into any other storage. With a right click it should gather the gold from the second interacted pouch/bag/treasure chest into the very first interacted source. Would be comfcy and intuitive once people hear about how it works.

[terse pier]

— 10/05/2023 10:31 PM in announcements, end of first paragraph

[winged mortar]

Running around 1 tapping people isn’t skill. Whether it’s the all purp ranger with the cross bow or beefed out barb. 1 taps shouldn’t exist

[storm blade]

how about no gold bags

[terse pier]

I would be interested to try a flatened pvp but also having a big advantage due to gear is a part of the game

[storm blade]

just let us keep the gold like i dont want to buy corn to buy go;d bars to buy keys just for room

[ember moon]

I think they need to tone down all that stats in general or how they stack. I shouldnt be able to just stack wpn dmg +20 and roll everybody or magic dmg as a wiz and 2 tap zap. Gear should matter BUT it shouldnt pre determain fights

[winged mortar]

The game is really good without fancy gear. It really sucks that there even is fancy gear

[abstract swallow]

I think everyone can agree that regardless of how good gear is, statstacking is a problem that needs to go

[eager rampart]

I actually liked buying ingots, you dont need to waste time and spend ridiculous amountof you dont want to waste time on grinding. 1 ingot was worth x3 amount of a golden bag. Though on the con side the price may flactuate. So it's a decent alternative but with some risk if you dont want to grind/

[daring trail]

Hotfix 15 was by far the best stats have ever been. 1-2 shots werents happening. Its crazy they reverted it so quickly. Didnt even give time to actually test it out

[terse pier]

I agree, the most fun I've had in this game has been when EVERYONE was going in in greys

[storm blade]

okay but for peoplethat dont want to flip gear why should i have to do thisa

[eager rampart]

Then there would be no incentive to loot people, if everyone had shit gear

[ember moon]

I didnt even play #15 because of work lol. i said afgter work i will and they reverted it before that so ill take your word.

[terse pier]

pick the loot they've found in the dungeon already?

[daring trail]

Its so sad they kept it for less than 24 hours. No time to test it within that timeframe... Like in your scenario you didnt even get a chance to try it

[eager rampart]

too little, there should be a reward for killing a real player in the dungeon, with shitty gaer half of the fun is gone

[lofty osprey]

Wtf go get mental help.

[terse pier]

the opportunity cost of not having loot taken by another player?

[ember moon]

Also i know this is a hot take but monthly wipes please. A month is enough for even casuals to get geared.

[eager rampart]

you dont neeed to flip gear to earn money

[rigid prawn]

I think they were talking about general matchmaking, as in how you get in lobbies with people. Not any sort of SBMM or gbmm. Like i said SDF directly addresses gbmm saying they don’t want to add it in the q&a

[terse pier]

they could remove looting from the game and it'd still be fun lmao

[daring trail]

It wouldnt appeal to more than half the player base if they took looting out

[eager rampart]

if everyone loot tis shit, it means your is too. which means you aint afraid to loose it, which i disagree with. you have to have some kind of fear of dying in this game. its not a deathmatch, its survival

[winged mortar]

Gear can be fun lootable, and not grant OP stats

Maybe gear should break down over time. Like condition and durability

[abstract swallow]

they aren't ready for that talk

[terse pier]

he said going with shitty gear ruins the fun which I just definitely don't agree with but that's subjective so

[daring trail]

Aside from a gold sink, what would durability really do? I dont think it helps the issue at all

[terse pier]

Time will tell, considering it was while they were talking about the removal of the under 15 queue which AFAIK was implemented purely to protect lower level players (and therefore is relevant in the GBMM debate imo)

[ember moon]

I have the most fun fighting with and against shitty gear. High lvl gear fights are boring imo. better team comp usually wins regardless

[eager rampart]

have you guys never killed a stacked player? you know how fun it is to get paid from an insane gear? its those rare moments that make the game great haha

[short sorrel]

I think we need to create a better incentive for geared players to not go into regular crypts. Run into a lot of teams (cleric, ranger, fighter most common) in full orange and purples just running teamsdown without looting and then going to hell

[winged mortar]

It failed spectacularly with people rerolling lvl 1s and having buddies drop them full sets

[terse pier]

it's fun, the opt-in/out GBMM I propose would still allow for that experience should you want it

[abstract swallow]

it would sink gold, proportionally tax higher-end gear, and cycle items out of the game
all of these are simple systemic needs for a looting game

[winged mortar]

It would make looting bodies chest and the like for mediocre gear worth it.

[daring trail]

Yea for sure, but that isnt happening often enough to keep the game fun.
Back when landmine rogue was a thing, maybe id agree. But as of now, someone in god kit stats is unkillable to someone in greens

[terse pier]

📠

[winged mortar]

Piling up gear should be the side quest. Playing the game and having fun should be the main quest.

[abstract swallow]

a remotely optimized green kit can punch up into anything right now

[ember moon]

Im ok with you having your god set, just make it to where you have to go HR or a diff lobby with it. i want to enjoy the game and so do you. you rolling under geared players is one sided

[short sorrel]

Hard disagree because its not really that easy to get an optimized green set when you get steamrolled by stacked trios each crpyts

[daring trail]

No one who is limited to greens, has the option for 'optimized' stats on those greens maybe one of their pieces has a god roll, but expecting everyone in greens to have the perfect stat roll doesnt help the issue

[winged mortar]

I lose every optimized green kit in 1 solo run to a twinked out purple barb or ranger

[abstract swallow]

it's never been easier to extract with good gear or excessive amounts of cash right now, if you aren't extracting it's because your PvE and clearing/looting skills are weak, not because of other players

[short sorrel]

I don't have an issue with solos myself but for trios it can be a lot harder

[winged mortar]

Um. Show me how to get past the two twinks steamrolling with gear far to powerful for the fun skill based game this is.

[daring trail]

Ratting around just isnt fun though. It was cool the first month of the game when it was new, but nowadays most people dont want to just sit there and rat

[abstract swallow]

I don't disagree with the latter part of your statement, gear (namely stat stacking) needs a lot of work
since we're two weeks into the wipe, the 'gear floor' is now greens in +1 All/Weapon/Magic and that's just not an improvement for anyone

[short sorrel]

I don't think its good game design for a team to solo farm in goblin caves for a while just to have a chance against the twink trio groups

[terse pier]

L take

[ember moon]

This chat is much more civil than the others lol. Opinions are being disputed with more than just get good and calling people names. Im outty but i hope yall have a good day and Hopefully friday we see some good changes we can all be happy about.

[short sorrel]

I think they need to implement something along the lines of gear score for lobbies. Make the crazy kitted people fight each other rather than the three new kids trying to understand the game

[winged mortar]

Positioning>teamwork>skill>loot

[abstract swallow]

goblin caves and the goldfarm economy it brought with it were the worst thing to ever happen to this game

[terse pier]

this is a great suggestion that got posted here a while ago: https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/498828/gear-based-ante-flip

[winged mortar]

Don’t see a huge flaw in this

[terse pier]

aye the other channels be toxic af but this one is usually chill

[terse pier]

I agree with this 100%, the sentiment of using Goblin Caves to loot up for the other dungeons is quite boring imo

[short sorrel]

I just foresee any issue with player retention if new players are forced to battle it out in the same lobby as skilled players in purples and oranges. That just isn't a fun experience

[daring trail]

This just isnt true. for every geared chad there is probably 3 broke gray kitters.
There is still people who play this game today who have less than 1k gold across their account and have to go in gray.

There is people who dont find it worth it to bring in a random green kit, because you are only running into purple+ optimized sets anyway.

The only place i can reliably farm gold without a kit is Goblin caves playing solo, Tbh i dont really run into crazy geared kids there.
Its gotten to the point where GC is just boring, and my friends i try to get into the game dont really want to play solo. Since thats the only reliable way to farm gold, DaD is stale a week after wipe.

Which sucks, i thought/think this game is amazing but some of the balacing direction is killing it for a lot of people

[narrow snow]

Stop balancing for crybabies when you're going to need to rebalance everytime you add new content anyways...

[terse pier]

he's spitting straight truth, the game can be made accessible to new / under levelled / geared players without ruining the hardcore sweats experience

[abstract swallow]

people having gear fear is not something you should balance a game around, but what you've brought up is a big part of why GC/the gold farm meta is so toxic
you're always encouraged to take the minimum risk possible and save up for optimized kits, so it's grey timmies fighting endless lobbies of nothing but other grey timmies and juiced squads
it doesn't help we've gone from mixed gear levels and mixed team sizes to JUST mixed gear levels, so lobbies are polarized to always be max team size with full gear or solo naked rats

[narrow snow]

There's no content separating Chad's and timmies atm. Need end game content. A balance patch every week isn't a good use of the 10 man dev teams time. Especially when game isn't anywhere close to done rebalancing is going to come and come anyways as you add content.

[rigid prawn]

Some of the problem is the yet to be added content, like 3 tier dungeons and mid game content. HR is a wall for some that no amount of gear will fix. We need harder pve / pvp areas inbetween base crypts and HR that call for better gear/ give better rewards. It’s more profitable/ safe for people to stay in LR lobbies, especially with the absolutely juiced current drop rate. Some of the these problems will work themselves out with time (and content)

[short sorrel]

I think implementing a gear score would make the most sense. And keep it hidden so the chad's can't learn to optimize their kits to prey on timmies. There just needs to be breathing space to learn the game. I think reducing the circle/eliminating the cirle would also work. Maybe instead of the circle closing, there is a timer and anyone who fails to extract by the time the round ends is automatically sent to hell

[abstract swallow]

the game needs better NPE, and 'offline raids' would probably be the best way to go about it
trying to throw players straight into a hardcore persistent playerbase will always be a problem because there's fundamental skills they need to practice before they can participate

[daring trail]

I find it hard to even consider that scenario 'gear fear'

Lets say you get into DaD right now. Gray kit level 1
With the current state outside of GC, you will extract maybe 2/10 raids. realistically.

lets say you get out fat those raids (which probably isnt realistic) and get 300g and 3 pieces of gear.

You run that gear next raid, die to fully optimized purple+ kits.

Next time you build up that value, you wont want to run that gear knowing you get rolled by those purple kids anyway. So now you have to farm 40+ games to get to the desired stash value to even potentially get a gear set that competes.

Its just not great rn, stats need adjustment big time. Hotfix 15 was much better in terms of stats

[terse pier]

+1 but I wouldn't hide the gear score, I'd make it so you can't twink the ranges because they'd be soft "ranges" that matchmaking up and down by, 20% gearscore, for example
@abstract swallow isn't GBMM a simple solution to that problem?

they might revert to hotfix 15 stats after the next wipe, it seemed a big part of the issue was doing it mid-wipe

[abstract swallow]

stats would have been in such a nicer place if they'd not given into the whining on patch #16 and NOT re-buffed magic/weapon damage like they said they would

[daring trail]

This is the dream, but this is the 2nd time they adjusted to that level of stats, and reverted it inside of a day or 2

[abstract swallow]

imo they are incredibly hesitant to let the community latch onto anything outside their scope after goblin caves
they don't want another "60% of the games take place in this gamemode none of us play and isn't a part of our vision" situation

[narrow snow]

Add a gear score system, remove the HR price and make the requisite to get into HR having a sufficient gear score. If your gear score is too low ypu can't enter. Fixes naked HR problem. Fixes Chad in norms problem (do NOT add a gear score queue only use this system to gatekeep hr instead of a gold fee wich is seldom worth it unless you also buy up luck potions)

[terse pier]

does anyone have a summary of what the hotfix #15 stat changes were like? I didn't play hotfix 15 at all and the announcement doesn't seem too detailed

[daring trail]

game was BIS when crypts was only map for sure.

I see why they added a solo mode, though it hasnt created the best meta/gameplay IMO

[abstract swallow]

mono-Crypts was the absolute best the game ever was
mixed team sizes + portal system made the meta so much more flexible

all maps need to 'red portal' into the same queue, we have to go back to greatness

[rigid prawn]

Gbmm problems aside, it’s an insane amount of dev time/ maintenance to get a functional system like that in the game. Even if the devs wanted to add gbmm, we probably wouldn’t see anything like it until the gear systems are more fleshed out.

[terse pier]

Depends whether or not you think the dev time is justified I suppose, considering it's apparent the lack of GBMM is making the experience sub-par for a lot of people let alone considering the new player experience.

[abstract swallow]

this is a very small team, devoting multiple people to upkeeping a GBMM system when they're already struggling to implement core features sounds like suicide

[terse pier]

Imo they already have a basic form of gearscore in the game - vendor sell price. Of course this doesn't account for stats which is a big problem, but it would give a rough idea of a players strength

[terse pier]

Idk, they're supposedly scaling up but yeah, it's an early access game with a small team, of course I'm not expecting the world of them. But I think the problem is big enough that it should be priortized. Have had far fewer fun games the more time goes on, and I can't be bothered to rat for games upon games to gear up on those characters that are under geared or leveled

[abstract swallow]

I hate to break it to you but that's the intended gameplay loop
go watch the old play-with-devs psuedo interviews from the playtest days
they straight up say you should start out ratting and sticking to PvE

[rigid prawn]

I think people think this is the answer for all their problems, but a lot of the time the “juiced teams” are running purples with +2.3% buff duration etc and people just focus on the colour lol. I feel lots of people are more willing to blame the game than themselves. They’ve already squished gear to the point where browns are the new whites and oranges are the new blues, gear for sure needs further tuning but at this point it’s getting harder and harder to blame the gear. At what point does it become user error?

[terse pier]

The base defensive stats are likely going to win out especially when you're talking about players who are in greys vs players who are in purples, it's a 1 or 2 shot vs 5+ shots being needed in some situations.
Gear definitely isn't always the ONLY factor but it has certainly felt like the dominant one in my experience. I play safe, choose my battles, but still there are situations where you can't avoid pvp because it's a BR game with a zone and limited portals

[tribal jewel]

I'm level 11 who still has an account restriction and can't even get into the trading guild.... I just fought a guy who had a spear of rot and a Centaurs Madness

Him: ... https://i.imgur.com/ZeELiNp.png https://i.imgur.com/FZV3J93.png Me: https://i.imgur.com/rmif8g1.png

[terse pier]

skill issue lol

[abstract swallow]

that's a juicy kit, shame you didn't kill him and take it

[echo wharf]

a greared warlock is like it never got nerfed

[tribal jewel]

Yeah too bad I didn't kill him while not even having full perks and a green weapon 😛

[winged mortar]

Probably would have had to land 30 clean blows on him

[rigid prawn]

This is bound to happen, you have days where your the gray kit and days where your the most juiced person in the lobby. Statistically , you’ll run into more grey kits than juicers

[tribal jewel]

Seeing how I"m only level 11 and can't even trade how will I be the most juiced person in the lobby?

[terse pier]

it doesn't change the fact that this is an awful player experience

[tribal jewel]

again: https://i.imgur.com/rmif8g1.png i can't even trade for another 2 days even if I get level 15

[abstract swallow]

I've bought shop kits and been the juiciest cheeks in the lobby. Most people play with no kit whatsoever because of gear fear/gold farm meta.

[rigid prawn]

When you match with people with crappier gear. Not every lobby has bis juicers wandering around, statically it’s more likely to see blues/greens

[ionic bobcat]

imagine player housing, you exit the dungeon and go back to your custom decorated house with a physical stash

a hideout per say

[abstract swallow]

sounds like a cool feature for after release

[ionic bobcat]

definitely would be very ambitious

i think they need to add more RP aspects to the game like that though

[terse pier]

he's probably gonna have to grind a lot of hours before he's able to stab another new player with a legendary

[small furnace]

I feel like gear fear has been pretty nonexistent for me this patch.

I come across a cape or some crazy +5 damage gear and I just kinda keep it on these days.

BIS gear sells for an all time low so I know I'm gonna be using it no matter what, and if I lose it I'll probably just find another set pretty quickly.

Also helps that I have a rogue that has an entire stash filled with gold from gold mining lmao so I don't feel pressured at all to preserve any kind of money.

[rigid prawn]

And that’s fine. Sometimes the guy in blues is the juicer relative to the rest of the lobby. Getting blues this patch feels like it’s almost every second chest lol. Rat and loot up some kits, relobby with kit and start smashing in some heads!

[terse pier]

this patch is weird, I feel like its hard to judge the game in this current state

[hardy vector]

detect traps is the WORST perk in the entire game. ive never seen someone use it, and former playtest stats n shit show it having almost no use

[tribal jewel]

Yeah they just said they're going to lower the loot

[hardy vector]

phantomize does not give any ms

[tribal jewel]

like in the #📢announcements channel they said they're goign to dial it back. How does a level 1-15 new player have any chance at that point?

[hardy vector]

they said dial it back not revert it

most likely its gonna go down so ur not getting blues from every lionhead and gold chest

[blazing ether]

What you guys think about adding a gold payment for each purple gear and higher items when entering the non-high roler areas and decreasing the cost of high roller the more high gear you have on?

Only a idea to help try and make it more skill base and not gear heavy as to also help newer players not needing a wipe to get started.

This good or bad idea? Lol

[small furnace]

They called it a "Test" that's the wording IM uses when they're gonna go back on something 100%.

I mean I'm hoping they don't, but yeah. It would be nice for gear to actually be worth something again, the economy is absolutely terrible. It sucked finding BIS gear for other classes and knowing there's nothing I can do with it just vendoring it because nobody buys gear for good prices these days.

[tribal jewel]

I really wish they wiped ALOT more

LIke ever 2 weeks or something I can't imagine it's easy to get good data when they have 3 or 4 different types of data in the same dataset

[rigid prawn]

Yeah. Everyone’s juiced at every skill level because of how over tuned looting is, also adding to how hard it is gear from grey cause even the timmies are in blues lol

[hardy vector]

i hope with the hotfix they nerf ranger to the ground

[abstract swallow]

I really hope they continue to not make a big deal out of their Ranger changes so that all of the brainlet takes are consolidated onto one class

[hardy vector]

also not to mention how incredibly op warlock is in solos\

[abstract swallow]

solos will always be based on burst damage and cooldowns, not that the devs care about solo balance

[modern night]

Cleric should have a meditate/pray like wizard to replenish spells. Makes little sense that I have to spend 600g on clarity pots and 3 campfires every round

[hardy vector]

thats the stupidest shit ive ever heard

no offense but cleric is already op as hell? making him have infinite spells would make him incredibly broken

[modern night]

Why can Bards buff ALL stats for 2 minutes in a large AoE, whilst Clerics can only buff Agi/Str/Wis by 3, for 30 seconds - single target ||just kidding, you buffed the enemy on accident|| what was the rational here? also why do Clerics still have Spell Ammo if Bards do not

[blazing ether]

When you do a long rest like to regain hp, you also get spells back slowly

[hardy vector]

bards also have 0 armor rating armor, clerics can tank a shit ton of stuff, and if u buff the enemy on accident thats a huge skill issue. also bards have MUSIC and bards are really only good with a team.

[tranquil plaza]

u high fanta? bards are super good solo too

[hardy vector]

half the time is spent buffing, bard isnt good in solos

[tranquil plaza]

whatever makes you sleep good

[hardy vector]

bard takes like 25 seconds fully buffing and has 0 armor rating potential

[terse pier]

or you could explain why you think they're "super good" in solos?

[hardy vector]

also a single fine curiass has more armor rating than a bard kit

[hot hemlock]

Infinite use buffs, fast debuffs, quick pve, ranged weaponry. Shall the list go on?

[terse pier]

I mean the guy was just adding nothing to the convo which is why I asked him but thanks

never seen a solo bard do well but I haven't played solos much at all lately, don't doubt it's possible but surely a class with a kit more optimized for solo play would succeed there ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rigid prawn]

A lot of the buffs only effect the bard lol. Combined with shriek pve is ezpz with base rapier!

[terse pier]

the more you know 💫

[small furnace]

I dunno if bard still does great in solo after the most recent round of nerfs.

I know they used to absolutely wreck though. Pentabuffing was overpowered as hell.

[rigid prawn]

Imo the nerfs were much needed. Before the spell memory change a default bard could fit right at home with any juiced team, the following nerf was to address the absolute gross overall stats you could achieve with gear. 60%PDR/325+ms bard is a thing I hope we never reencounter lol

[small furnace]

Oh you misunderstand me. I'm not saying the nerfs weren't needed just that I'm not sure they are still a menace in solo play.

No, me? I hate bards, I'm happy to see them nerfed into the ground. The hatred so many people felt for rogues I always felt for bards.

[light stirrup]

Can gold bags and chests be more accessible? Ridiculous that the bag costs like 15k and the chest is like 100k. What's with the torture of no stash space? I was pumped when I heard they were adding them in just to find out they're the most rare shit in the game lmfao

[rigid prawn]

I think with shriek and rousing alone you still can f up pve with a brown rapier, though he’s not the monster he was before lol

[small furnace]

I agree, there's zero point to gold bags and chests when they cost 10k and 50k respectively. Good luck farming the mats yourself as the droprate is near nonexistent for everything you need.

Everybody seems to be buying gold ingots as a value store, myself included. No point in wasting that much gold.

[rigid prawn]

Economy is f’ed right now, when it’s more balanced it will work better, stuffs overinflated to all hell

[light stirrup]

Luckily I sold all my ingots at 950ea, I'm sitting around 16k liquid. But I'm not paying 10k for a bag that holds 500, actually insane

[small furnace]

Yep same, I have a wealth of gold but there's no way I'm spending it on a worthless bag that holds 500 gold coins lmao.

[light stirrup]

This is not an economy issue lol, these should be accessible by everyone. It's literally gold storage. So dumb that they made them extremely rare and hard to get. Not including trying to buy them for exorbitant prices lol.

[small furnace]

Gotta agree with him here @rigid prawn

They made the mats so incredibly rare to get that no matter where the economy is they're always going to price these things at such a high value in comparison to the current economy.

[rigid prawn]

@small furnace I think they are supposed to be similar to weapon cases from Tarkov as is. Would be awesome to see a lower tier version more accessible but the player pricing is completely wacked we can’t even get a good judge of where they would normally sit in the economy

[small furnace]

Either remove the troll pelt requirement or make troll pelts drop more frequently.

Wolf pelts are already incredibly rare, getting 4 of them is no easy feat and they certainly sold for a lot on the market even before the economy inflated to such high degrees.

Having to get a troll pelt, which means grinding troll upwards of 20 times and managing to escape on the one time you DO get it (which is a stretch given the funny bell that alerts everyone you've completed troll, if you have a geared juicer in your lobby you aint getting out) is just ridiculous. It's only a 500 gold store. It literally only saves you 4 spaces... gold ingots are ALWAYS going to be better than this if they don't make it more accessible.

[ivory quartz]

Remove crafting cost for big gold bags, make big gold bags and the big gold chest purchasable from Treasurer for a resonable price 50-100g for big gold bag anywhere from 100-1000g for big gold chest. These items should not be expensive and hard to get, they should be readily and easily available for all players. Right now we have serious economic issues occuring in the game because we can only trade 1250g in the trade window.

[rigid prawn]

I agree the troll pelt is a little hard to get for only 500g space, would be better suited for an armour or something. I don’t mind if chests are rare, the economy should eventually be in a place where it doesn’t inflate to the point it’s currently at. It’s the worst its ever been lol. Chest could fill the roll the Tarkov weapon case on being a rare in raid find still if they gave people options. For a first pass on expanded space it’s scuffed for sure though will be interesting if they make other options like weapon/armour stands

[ivory quartz]

The cost of storing gold is so high, that people have moved away from gold to other means of exchange. People use Gold ingots, candy corn, and keys rather than the games actual currency to perform trade now, and that is because the tax on storing gold; ei buying the 10k troll pelt, and the opportuinity cost of storing it is too high. Additionally we are experiencing run on market effects now aswell. Like speculation bubbles and crashes, This all stems from a purely arbitrary decision to make gold take up so much space, they could resolve it in an instant, by simply making regular gold puches hold more or making the new gold storage items easier to get.

[small furnace]

Gold bags should have very wide accessibility and gold chests should at the very least be a replacement for keys.

My understanding is the purpose of these gold storage items was to prevent people from just stocking up on keys as gold storage. If that is the case then they have failed catastrophically in their implementation of this.

For this to be the case, a gold chest will need to be accessible enough that someone would rather get a gold chest than instead get a gold key.

[rigid prawn]

Honestly I like the idea of gold bars doubling as money. Kinda makes sense lol. Really sends home the traders market vibe when people are trading more than just coin

[ivory quartz]

Actual stash expansions, Ei, weapon crates, junk cases, etc.. Should be very expensive items. I have no issue with them making a weapon crate that cost like 20000 gold worth of matts to buy. This game does need gold sinks, but making storing gold itself the gold sink is not a good idea, because then people will just move to using other items as currency instead.

[small furnace]

I do not like the idea that in order to trade I need to play a form of trade-up in which I perform a series of small transactions getting taxed 100s of gold along the way before I can afford my big transaction.

Example: I want to purchase a troll pelt.

Okay, well to do that.

You first need to perform 8 transactions for gold bars paying 1000g for each transaction.

Then you need to trade those 8 gold bars for a gold key.

Then you need to trade the gold key for a troll pelt.

This is just a very silly and cumbersome way to do trade.

[rigid prawn]

When it comes to the chest you could look at it as a space investment. The 500g bag should be 2 space though to make it more worth grinding for. 4 Wolf pelts should be the crafting recipe get rid of the troll hide from the recipe entirely

[ivory quartz]

We want people to use gold coins rather than other items, for several reasons. One gold can be broken down to the single coin allowing for more accurate pricing of items. Second the value of gold is immediately known, because we can compare it to the items available at a static price in the shop, Three because there are static items the price of gold is P E G G E D too, the devs can manipulate that to balance the economy to their liking.

[ivory quartz]

Fucking P E G G E D is a banned word, W T F is with this censor system. Its an actual word

[rigid prawn]

Yeah it’s cumbersome, a lot of it is the inflated economy tho. As long as theres trade limits and people value rare items I don’t know if item trading will ever go away

[small furnace]

That's why I'm saying we should make the gold storage items hyper accessible, so people stop with this cancerous trade-up game where you have to store 50 different commodities in order to purchase everything on the market.

HELL at this point I'm down for an auction house. Just FORCE people into using gold lmao I'm so tired of this.

[rigid prawn]

The first step would be to fix the economy and see where things lay. Who knows maybe troll pelts will saturate and be 200g next wipe

[small furnace]

Unless they up the droprate there is zero way that's happening. Wolf pelts were 250g before the economy inflated.

[past thicket]

How much is trolls pelt selling for rn?

[small furnace]

1 - 2 keys.

[rigid prawn]

They might, depends on how accessible they want to make it. They need to play around with the economy to see where monetary progression should lie. Maybe they want you bossing before you ever get to the point of gold expansion. Based on the current requirements I wouldn t be surprised if that’s the case

[small furnace]

Inferno bossing is largely inaccessible to the general playerbase anyway. If you mean cave troll then that is possible for sure. I'd say that 95% of players minimum don't participate in inferno bossing though, not with how stringent the requirements are.

[echo wharf]

gear matters to much in this game

[rigid prawn]

I might be wrong but I think the chest is a rare spawn in HR boss loot room no? I think they want gold expansion to be a whale item. It’s hard to judge the economy in its current state but the best guideline we have is treasure value and merchant pricing. With blue weapons ranging roughly 80-160g and the highest value single slot treasure in the game being 80g, we should base our opinions on cost around these thresholds. Whether the devs can realistically achieve this depends on how they handle it, but giving ingame value to rare items by unlocking them in merchants through progressing quest lines worked well for Tarkov. There will always be the outliers, keys in Tarkov are overpriced as well, but things like storage expansion could be accessible through merchants to help guide the costs of crafting materials like the troll hide. Doesn’t matter how rare the troll hide is if through a month of questing you can buy a gold bag outright from the leather maker for 1k gold

[storm blade]

game kinda going to crap like they made everything useless or pointless to do i can get 500 gold a run

[rigid prawn]

Economy adjustments this Friday, we need a wipe though to really reset the economy to manageable state. Seemed they wanted everyone running around in the new adjusted gear for data reasons, economy got buggered in the process. We should see a wipe after the end of the upcoming leaderboards, don’t know if they are planning an earlier one or if Friday will bring one tho

[storm blade]

play a naked warlock or wiz and u be fine

[echo wharf]

nah just need full purple then no one can touch me

[hazy sinew]

My biggest suggestion is to not listen to these fools in discord. Your game is fun not that buggy and pretty balanced. Just keep doing what you're doing <3

[terse quartz]

HR should be reduced to 50g to keep the geared people out of normals. Change my mind

[stoic narwhal]

HR is already very worth it at 100g, it's not the fee that keeps people in normals. You are just way more likely to lose your gearset to an actual juiced team, like +20 wep damage across gear ranger with a legendary +4 longbow, etc, and teams who play all day and take the game very seriously and will outplay as well as outgear.

[terse quartz]

While I do agree that HR is worth 100g, to many people don't want to risk losing 100g which makes the HR lobbies dead

[small furnace]

HR is way more worth it when leaderboards are not around.

Once leaderboards come around all the career streamer sweats head in to start grinding up on it.

Right now HR is like SUPER worth it, but once leaderboards come around that might change.

[stoic narwhal]

I mean, I would be fine with zero entry fee, I'm just saying the people who stomp normals would eventually get stomped in HR so they don't bother. Sure they can make their money back and replace their sets, but then you have to go through the awful experience of actually buying another set of nice gear one piece at a time, against all the trade bots, item snipers, etc.

[terse quartz]

You, have a good point there

Maybe the amount of gear will go down after the fix friday but all the legacy gear will still be in the game. They need to wipe or somthing. I have no idea why they went back on removing legacy gear

[small furnace]

I'm not a fan of leaderboards being an incentive for clout in HR.

When everybody goes in with the purpose to make money and come out on top then it feels like an equal playing field.

When some people are going in to clout farm and increase an arbitrary number then it doesn't matter to them how much they're risking, they will rush people down with the intent of screwing them over and ticking their number up no matter what. I would prefer only the former incentive exists, for those streamer sweats an "Elite Queue" could exist or something if they wanna chase their clout they can, would rather clout chasers just be separated from the rest of the playerbase.

[terse quartz]

Though I have absolutly no coding experiance, There should be a way to just fix legacy gear like making all +2 alls into +1alls

[stoic narwhal]

Yeah this was discussed a lot after the last leaderboard and I think the devs are on board with a fix as the announcement says:

"We also plan to start testing new leaderboard systems with the first iteration calculating rankings using a new method with the hotfix."

So hopefully they have figured something out.

@terse quartz they did this already, +2 all was all changed into +1 all when they did the rollback.

[terse quartz]

The problem with an elite que is that it'd be insanly unfun. All the best people in the game all duking it out wouldlead to sweaty streamers in normals anyway bc they want to win fights easly sometimes

[terse quartz]

So then why were they apologizing for fixing legacy gear?

[small furnace]

Streamers already do that though. I've been killed by popular streamers in normals just because they like to roll over people for content sometimes.

Elite queue would give them a place they can have their pvp moments they want and segregate them from those of us that play this game for fun, and not as a career.

@stoic narwhal Yeah I am hoping that's what they mean, but my thoughts after reading that was that they're gonna change how stats are tracked or something. I do hope it doesn't remain anywhere near the way it is. Leaderboard career sweats just ruin HR lobbies for people that are trying to progress through the game and move up.

[pine comet]

Theirs streamers that complain that they can’t fight anyone in high roller so I’m pretty sure they would like this

[stoic narwhal]

I think the apology was because all legacy gear was randomly rerolled without telling the players in advance.

So people spent hours in trade and in game grinding to purchase multiple sets to use, then all that work was lost as the gear was basically useless after the fix.

I am all for removing legacy gear, but I agreed that players should have had some advance notice to avoid wasting their time.

[stoic narwhal]

I'm like 99% sure streamers just get queue dodged in HR since nobody wants to die to them.

[pine comet]

Yup

[small furnace]

Yep yep.

I'm not against pvp in HR, but I would rather that pvp be against someone that came in to profit and is being opportunistic going after me, or if I make the same judgement call.

Like it doesn't matter how much I practice or how much gear I saved up. I can't beat someone like Jaygriff who spends 10-14 hours on this game every single day of his life as a career unless I get immensely lucky on all fronts. I just wanna play against other people who are normal players like me, good, bad, whether they stomp me or get stomped. That's what I want.

[pine comet]

People have the morales not to stream snipe mid match but they don’t mind waiting until the streamer they are scared of is not online or is in a game

[small furnace]

Yeah ofc not, I mean it's like this.

Imagine you join a recreational soccer league and you go against other teams in your silly little league.

Going up against their streamers is like if someone said: "Ok, now your team has to play against Messi and his team." It just completely ruins the fun for you and ofc you're gonna lose.

[pine comet]

It’s just so discouraging to do high roller with a team even if they put uniques in random lions head chests in the crypts because these streamers are online for every hour they’re not sleeping and instead of playing the game of how it was intended and looting the dungeon they just blitz through the entire thing looking for a team that decided to play hr for the first time

[modern night]

You realize the difference between a grey chest piece and a purple is like 10 armor rating and 3 random rolls, and the rolls don’t even effect the player as much as you all think they do. Yes a warlock that can cast a spell 2.6% faster than you, has 3 more HP and 1 more move speed has a MASSIVE ADVANTAGE AND IS UNTOUCHABLE AND MAKES THE GAME UNPLAYABLE. Get a grip. Git good.

[small furnace]

Rolls... don't affect the player as much as you think they do? Huh, well that's an opinion that can be quickly discarded.

[tender seal]

blame the devs for requiring us to kill to guarantee extracts

That's the problem with the battleroyale bullshit, most of the lobby has to die every raid for consistent success

[stoic narwhal]

https://www.twitch.tv/repoze/clip/UnusualJollyIguanaKAPOW-yjz09NqirdVVsXGm

This is the gear Repoze is currently wearing. I'm not blaming him or anything he's just playing the game, but to say this gear doesn't affect the player "as much as you all think they do" is just stupid and indicates that you've never worn a good set in your life.

I'll summarize for you:

Rogue with 31 Str / 139 HP.
Pendant with +6 damage
Chest with +6 damage
+3 all mask with +1 damage
Demons Glee with +3 damage
Lantern with +2 damage
Gloves with +2 damage
Pants with +3 damage
Two rings with +2 damage each
Boots with +1 damage
Cape with +2 damage

That's +28 damage. A purple rapier can max roll 25 damage base and your average rogue with some +Str gear will be at about 100 hp~. How can you say this has no effect on gameplay?

[pine comet]

The portals also have the dumbest spawns ever and the circles end in the worst areas, the amount of times the circle has ended in a room with 2 mini bosses, wide open with no cover and 80 random mobs is more then i can count

[small furnace]

Damn beat me to it. Yeah idk what this dude is on, rolls are absolutely the most important part of gear and can make or break it as god tier or garbage.

[stuck perch]

It doesn't see a lot of use on rogue because most rogue players go for an assassin build and to do so requires a lot of perks. This is before they nerfed rogue. There's a meme pickpocket build but that aside you don't see a lot of different rogue builds.

[modern night]

Obviously. My point was not all purples are good, the dudes statement was that he needed all purples to be untouchable. I was saying that just because someone has purple gear on doesn’t mean they’re OP, they can have dog shit stats, like most of them do.

[stoic pier]

You dont need things like MMR or welfare 15 and under lobbies as long as high roller remains the most incentive way to play the game like it is now.

[stoic narwhal]

Rogue with 31 Str / 139 HP.
Pendant with +6 damage
Chest with +6 damage
+3 all mask with +1 damage
Demons Glee with +3 damage
Lantern with +2 damage
Gloves with +2 damage
Pants with +3 damage
Two rings with +2 damage each
Boots with +1 damage
Cape with +2 damage

That's +28 damage. A purple rapier can max roll 25 damage base and your average rogue with some +Str gear will be at about 100 hp~. How can you say this has no effect on gameplay?

Here's the gear summary.

[modern night]

Yup, that’s good gear. Insane really.

[small furnace]

When people say: "All purples" I feel like most of them are referring to them having decent rolls too. I don't think people are stupid enough to think that purples with spell casting speed or memory capacity rolls are a significant upgrade over grey equivalents.

[stoic narwhal]

"the rolls don't even effect the player as much as you all think they do"

Why did you say that though?

[stuck perch]

Have you ever been in a bad position with good gear, or face a group that had good coherence? Gear is not and should not be the sole deciding factor in a fight although it is the easiest factor to scale. They could reign in gear a bit more but they have to spread that power budget on to other aspects of the game.

[modern night]

I’ll edit it to “not all rolls” if that helps you understand my point. That being that most of the people that cry in here have literally never even delved into stats, when they see a purple it’s just the best thing they’ve ever seen and they lose their minds.

[stoic narwhal]

I just want to be clear I'm not hating on anyone for wearing good gear or whatever. I just want to be realistic. There's plenty of opportunity to outskill people in this game, but there are times when you get stat/gearchecked as well. There's no reason to be entirely in one camp or the other.

I was just typing this out. There is skill and gear but I feel the loudest voices on one side or the other refuse to acknowledge this.

[small furnace]

Holy moly is that a sane person on the dark and darker discord. Sorry sir but you need to leave. This place is for extremists only.

You either need to be in the camp of:

• Gear is impossible to overcome. Geared chads just roll over everyone and there's nothing us helpless babbos can do about it, pls remove gear.
  or
• You can win every circumstance with skill. If you can't win against a meta comp in oranges as a grey naked rogue that's a skill diff and your problem.

Pick one, no middle-of-the-road opinions allowed here.

[ivory quartz]

The real skill in the game is being able to acquire the gear. You only acquire sets like the one Repoze Has by being consistently good at clearing content, and extracting. Good players will stomp regardless of the gear, sure the gear lets them stop harder,but such is the nature of a loot based RPG.

[stoic narwhal]

gaming discords were a mistake honestly

[small furnace]

Uh, maybe before. I don't agree with that now though. Anyone can consistently get good gear even at the level of gear Repoze has pretty easily.

Gold mining is so insanely profitable and requires you to risk nothing and honestly isn't that hard. It's just chance-based whether someone will contest you or not.

Source: #rogue message
I'm him.

[stoic narwhal]

I don't think I said anything that would conflict with this.

Obviously the best players in the game will beat players who outnumber or outgear them or whatever and end up successful eventually.

[ivory quartz]

I won't deny the current gear economy is fucked, but that gear repoze is wearing is worth alot more than a few gold mining runs. What @stoic narwhal posted is like 10keys worth of gear so like 80000 gold, that def does still require consistent content clearing to wear that absolute bis among bis of gear.

[pine comet]

Source No Access for people like me in only 1 class chat

[stoic narwhal]

Just to nitpick, that's way more than 10 keys of gear.

[ivory quartz]

And I don't really disagree with you, you are entirely correct sometimes in this game you just get gear checked and there is very little you can do about it. I am merely suggesting that, that isn't entirely a bad thing.

[small furnace]

It's just a screenshot of me with my naked rogue having a full inventory of gold purses. I don't play rogue for the combat lmao.

@ivory quartz Oh yeah, I mean that's KINDA fair but the next step down in gear is like less than 10% of that price and it isn't all that different.

At the ABSOLUTE highest end it costs that much but even an orange with very good rolls these days does not cost that much due to how the gear economy has been inflated. That might change though guess we'll see.

[hybrid heath]

the audio in this game is too shitty for portal location knowledge to hinge on it, portals should just show on minimap when they spawn, instead of playing hide and seek with pve objects

[pine comet]

Audio fine for me, could be an issue on your side?

[stoic narwhal]

This man is spitting facts. Portals in general need to be reworked. Right now it's mandatory to gatekeep and camp the portals until the very end so nobody griefs your Inferno boss run which creates really unenjoyable and toxic experiences for people.

**And it's pretty common for one room in the last circle to have like 50% of the total extracts.

[ivory quartz]

True, it is the nature of incremental advantage, that the next 1% of efficiancy costs exponentially more than the prior 1%

[storm blade]

we dont run normals cuz of the cost man

[small furnace]

Yeah, guess it's different for me cause I know I'm not good enough that the extra 1 damage or 1 allstat will matter to me. Might be important to those streamers but I'm above average at this game at best, so I don't see the point in spending 10x more for something that I could lose just as easily as the cheaper set haha.

It is right that those people are the only ones that consistently get sets that expensive though. Especially with the price of keys right now considering they are usually the only ones doing inferno bossing as well.

[pine comet]

People run normals because they wanna play the game with their friends while not entering a environment advertised as a sweat fest even though normals basically are just hr crypts now

[small furnace]

Yes but that's not because more sweats are in regular crypts. It's because more regular players can afford to have good gear sets now due to the inflated economy. So you'll naturally see more people walking around all chadded up in capes and such.

I once found a caped warlock in crypts that died solo to the skeleton champion. That was a funny extract for me.

[pine comet]

Tru, people are deluding themselves into thinking normal is any different from high roller except for the mobs, especially with the map pool being shared now for some reaaon

[storm blade]

to be honest there is more pvp in normals

[pine comet]

The only threat hr has is that the chance of running into a sweaty streamer team is higher

[ivory quartz]

The issue is merely that the economy is out of whack because IM decided to make loot free. they will prob adjust it next hotfix and tone it down.

[small furnace]

The lack of a infoboard is also really important actually. You can never feel safe in HR because you don't know how many people have or haven't died or how many portals spawned.

I personally think this difference should be removed because I never liked the idea that "Less hud = More hardcore"

[pine comet]

As a cleric info board only helps if I wanna decide on going to hell or not, I just sit on edge or in circle until the final circles

[ivory quartz]

I think the map pool for HR and Norms being the same was a really good change, it helps people learn HR layouts and makes it less intimidating to start doing HR, because learning the map is a really big hurdle.

[pine comet]

If you’ve researched, you can figure out that the portal spawns are identical to normals except for the very first portal spawn in high roller which only spawns 1 instead of 2 blues

[small furnace]

Oh yeah no, for sure I think HR is in a better place than it was 2 patches ago. I just REALLY don't like the idea that we hide the infoboard from people. Playing with information is nice, and knowing whether I'm the last person in the lobby or not would help me make better decisions. I don't see why that info has to be hidden from people.

[stoic narwhal]

Yeah I made an official suggestion talking about this exact point. I like to think they read it.

[pine comet]

My personal opinion, remove colosseum, its just a giant room where rangers take potshots at anyone who took out a torch or had a potion on their belt for half a second

[stoic narwhal]

Ruins Lite

[pine comet]

[stoic narwhal]

My personal opinion, +6 damage on a necklace, pants, chest, is a little too much.

[pine comet]

My personal opinion is the +4 true dmg rolls on weapons and+3 true dmg rolls on pendants, chest pieces, and leggings are excessive

[small furnace]

It can be more than 6 can't it? If you roll additional, weapon, and true.

[abstract swallow]

idk why those arent mutually exclusive on top of being bound to weapon/jewelry

[ivory quartz]

Well I know IM do listen to suggestions, so thanks that was a good one.

[knotty wigeon]

ruins spawns are terrible. im engage in pvp as soon as i spawn in 99% of the time. reduce amount of players for better spacing between groups or/and increase the maps size. I can rush people or be rush by people faster then someone killing their first mob in there area. i had one match were i kill 8 people and only move two rooms in short time. This feels bad for game pacing. ruins might well be area for pure pvp only

[ivory quartz]

Ruins does have terrible spawns

[knotty wigeon]

when i play it now i rush spawns otherwise it's your butt with sword in it

[stoic narwhal]

Yes you can get all three rolls.

[stuck perch]

But there is more than gear and skill, reducing it down to these factors is ignoring the others and while you may not need anything beyond gear and skill if you have ample amounts of both compared to your opponents, those other factors can still lead to advantages that might be claimed against you.

[small furnace]

Oh yeah, there's also luck. What position you happen to be in when your enemy finds you, where the swarm ends up, where portals spawn, which spawn you get. Whether another team happens to third party you, or the enemies during the fight.

There's a lot of elements of luck in these fights too, doubt what's what you meant but there is factors beyond gear and skill yes.

[stoic narwhal]

Yeah I mean there's circle RNG, weird mob aggro RNG, bad matchups in your teamcomps, portal RNG, but most of the discussion here revolves around gear vs skill so that was my main focus.

[stuck perch]

Luck might play into it a bit, but the path you choose to take after any given spawn, how you choose to clear or not clear every room, how you prep escape routes these are conscious or unconscious decisions on your part and their consequences affect how and where opposing parties find you. But when I say positioning that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to where you are in relations to your party members at the start and during a fight. Is one of you split off from the others? Whether it's because your party doesn't have a lot of cohesion or because the rogue in your party is taking a detour to flank them while you hold them at bay. Is your front line pointed towards the enemy or is your closest party member to them a squishy caster? Some of these positioning choices may be intended and some might not, but it isn't luck.

[stoic narwhal]

Personally I just group these things under "skill".

These types of decisions are generally referred to as "gamesense".

I look at it as Skill broken down into:
Technical/mechanical skill e.g. do you hit your shots/spells/attacks, do you move well, etc.
Gamesense e.g. the things you brought up.

But I think most folks would consider it all part of "skill" overall. Anything the player has control over is decided by how skillful they are.

[small furnace]

Some positioning is definitely a luck. You can't account for a third party coming in from your side when you decided to engage on the enemy.

Also you're not always going to have all three members right next to you, footsteps aren't super loud in this game and if an enemy team found your trail and happened upon you in one of the moments where your team isn't super close together that is definitely luck of the draw. These are things you can't ALWAYS be playing around, it's not possible to play the game in a way where you're always playing around these factors, so these do come down to luck, not just the luck of your spawn but the luck of the spawns of the other geared teams in the lobby and how quickly they managed to find you/track you down.

I'm not saying all of it is, but to classify it all as 100% skill is definitely wrong.

[stuck perch]

I get that some people sum it up to skill but it gets confusing when someone is lacking in one of those things and dies because of it and gets told to just get better and they look at just how much better they were at avoiding and landing attacks yet they died to 1 unluck high powered hit from the enemy.

[stoic narwhal]

It can definitely be confusing because general terms like "skill" or "positioning" or "gamesense" have different meaning to different people.

People not understanding their own mistakes, like not taking good positions in advance, and then complaining that they are always on the back foot in engagements, is another thing entirely and you are of course correct that people do fail to see these mistakes in all games.

When I talk about luck I am referring to things like where circles close, etc. You can do things to mitigate bad luck like trying to always be in the center of the circle, but it is still luck.

[stuck perch]

There are things you can do to being 3rd partied like being aware of what's behind you and where what approaches enemies have to get closer to you on top of keeping an eye or ear out for indications that they might be nearby. Sure sometimes they're just that better at stealth than you are at detecting them but luck is not the only factor here.

[ivory quartz]

I was playing LOLonce, and one of my teammates didn't understandt he concept of lane advantage, I told him "You aren't even good enough to know why you are bad"

[small furnace]

Luck isn't the only factor, but I take issue with you dismissing them as all things you can play around.

Can you survive being third partied? Absolutely. You can even avoid it in some circumstance.

It is in-fact bad luck to be the one getting third partied compared to the enemy team though, when it could just as easily happen to either team.

I'm not saying you can't mitigate luck to some degree but there is a large degree of elements in this game that do involve luck.

[stuck perch]

You can't control luck, but there are things you can control. If you leave things up to luck you're going to get burned as often if not more than you get lucky.

[stoic narwhal]

And this is in a game with plenty of competitive guides and resources available to new players. DaD has much less in the way of new player guides, and most new players are not directed these resources in any way. Most players do not understand how damage is calculated, or what stats to prioritize on gear, how to deal with certain tricky mobs, etc. Much less more abstract concepts like team composition, roles, or positioning.

[small furnace]

You can't always play around every element of luck. Sometimes you're going to spawn in a bad spawn and repeatedly clear rooms only for the circle to keep kicking you out and forcing you to push from one side of the map to the other.

It's not always a choice of 'leaving things up to luck or not' you can do things to mitigate it but sometimes luck is unavoidable, and sometimes you will die to it.

I have had many such instances where I spawn in a corner of the map and our team clears and cuts across as fast as we can only for the circle to keep kicking us out into the swarm and we have to repeatedly push past or go around teams that camp the safe zone. This is BAD luck. There is not anything we can do to play around it, we can only try our best to survive it, sometimes that's how the game is. It's okay to admit that, it doesn't take away from the skill based aspects of the game.

[stoic narwhal]

Yes.

Skill can mitigate bad luck to an extent, and skill can let you capitalize more heavily on good luck. But both still exist.

[stuck perch]

Sure maybe you'll die to luck at some point, but that's necessary or gear bloat happens.

[ivory quartz]

Its actually against the rules to tell people in this very discord exact damage formulas, its considered D A T A M IN E D information apparently.

[stuck perch]

That's a bit excessive. Players need a way to understand the game they're playing. Otherwise it's like playing chess but with only half the rulebook.

[drowsy grotto]

Isn't it against the rules of the server to talk about the rules of the server

[vast tide]

Hey bro, time out. You know the rules

[drowsy grotto]

🥹

[limber dew]

Please add friend list.

[soft nebula]

progression overload is super prominent rn, and for the most part i see it INTENSELY on barbs, PDR, and ROGUES. ive never really seen any super prominent rogues in these higher tier lobbies before, but now seeing them move at extreme speeds, proccing the 50% extra damage with invis pots and just being an absolute nuisance that runs on a completely different pace than the rest of the characters is maddening. please find a way to remove some of the tech rogues have for just doing absurd dmg that is almost unfightable

[drowsy grotto]

barb is overly weak in-comparison to almost every character in the game

The only thing barb has any dominance is over wizards, if they have brain anyurisms in the middle of the fight and don't make distance, straight weaker fighter.

[grave coral]

For the love of god buy some better servers. There's no reason that you're still running on dial-up servers.

I lose more kits to rubberbanding servers than I do players.

[stiff atlas]

I strongly suggest people review https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/472063/auction-house
and if you agree with anything, upvote this.

[tiny delta]

Make Dark and Darker Fun Again
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/499773/please-dont-revert-the-patch-15-changes-stop-listening-to-complainers-and-back-t
Bring Back Hotfix 15

[hoary notch]

what on God's green earth did I just read

[drowsy grotto]

You read someone talking about barb being very weak
Against anyone in the same level of gear he's absurdly weaker

[mild atlas]

LOL barbs absolutely wreck rogues, wizards, and warlocks.

[drowsy grotto]

Warlocks can easily out damage barbs, wizards have range and can outrun barbs and rogues are kind of a direct counter depending on how you see it

[mild atlas]

its all about playstyle, stop chasing as a barb.

You wait to the side of entryways, stop chasing. Bait them in.

[drowsy grotto]

warlocks just spam Curse of pain and it's easy day

[waxen flame]

barb has the highest damage in the game

[drowsy grotto]

Maybe with his buffs active, oh wait that lasts 7 fucking seconds

[mild atlas]

rogues literally take 1 hit from a barb and they are dead.

just wait behind a door. stop chasing, that's all you need to know.

[drowsy grotto]

If a barb can hit a rogue then the rogue is shit

[mild atlas]

stop chasing bro, it's that simple, you don't chase anyone as a barb, you bait others in.

[drowsy grotto]

If someone has half a brain they can tell that you're baiting them in

[mild atlas]

any half geared barb, it only takes one headshot and they are dead. If you can't hit a single headshot, stop playing barb.

[drowsy grotto]

This shows me you don't play barb

[mild atlas]

this shows me you are bad at playing that class. I play barb main, it's not hard.

[drowsy grotto]

Sure man, what ever you say.

[mild atlas]

check your playstyle bro, bait people in, if they don't push, run away to the next corner/door.

[hot hemlock]

This mentality is definitely showing that you play solo lol

[mild atlas]

one prefire to the face and any class is dead with half decent gear. Also no I play both lol.

get a double axe, get some attack power, and you will be hitting for like 140 headshots, which will kill 90% of people in a single hit

[echo wharf]

for the love of god, rework warlocks this shit is annoying

[drowsy grotto]

You're literally just banking on players being stupid and if they aren't just not fighting them.

[mild atlas]

stop fighting out in the open as a barb, never chase, play corners/doorways

its that simple.

[drowsy grotto]

It really isnt

[drowsy grotto]

Your entire strategy revolves around players not having any clue on how to play, if they push you, sure it might be a good strat but if they have a singular neuron firing in their head. Then they'll just stay out of reach.

[mild atlas]

then you wont die

[drowsy grotto]

Every class can do that then, rogue can hide around corners and hit and run. Fighters can do that then speed boost around it, do you want me to continue?

[mild atlas]

if they are out of reach, you have nothing to worry about. If anyone gets close to you, which they will if you dont play out in the open, dont chase, and play doorways, then they wont hit you, nor will they chase, because if they do, they are dead

[drowsy grotto]

Cleric can hide around corners then smite, rangers can hide around corners and wait for you to push then just shoot them with arrows.

[mild atlas]

if a rogue hides around corners, they will instantly die lol...bro come on, just play more, watch some videos, and "gitgud"

[drowsy grotto]

All you're telling me is barb is weak and can't fight without a large advantage

[mild atlas]

its a wall/doorway, its not an advantage.

dont stand out in the open, it truly is that simple.

[drowsy grotto]

What ever you say man

[mild atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/i-love-you-too-winnie-the-pooh-gif-17395933116560250988

[drowsy grotto]

If the only way to fight with a class is making someone push it's not a good class

[blazing bolt]

Make clarity potions like 35% more abundant or something

stock some potion rooms in howling crypts or a room in the goblin cavesssss.

[limber whale]

Can we remove all +damage rolls?

[cobalt root]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/501271/make-tooltips-show-exact-damage-formulas

[wind elk]

your "drop rate buff" has ruined this game. the sheer amount of people geared is unreal. Good job Ironmace.

[velvet marsh]

When does ranger get grappling hook?

[main perch]

what if gold was a counter instead of an item when in stash

[tiny delta]

Make Dark and Darker Fun Again
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/499773/please-dont-revert-the-patch-15-changes-stop-listening-to-complainers-and-back-t
Bring Back Hotfix 15

[fervent flume]

anybody been experiencing "it ended abnormally. please restart" often? already scanned and repaired the game and it keeps happening

[main perch]

tbh i think most of the balance issues people are having would be fixed if they didnt let people queue in to non highroller with purple+ rarity

[storm echo]

nerf amount of speed buff items and gear, remove the cap on move speed, barbs should not be moving as fast as rogues

[ruby kestrel]

Nerf bard more remove its songs

[waxen flame]

When this happened to me it was because my internet dced

[fervent flume]

i mean i guess theres still that possibility but its happened several times and my internet rarely goes out

[broken mango]

Remove earthwuake jesus christ its too overpowered

[supple fog]

Team death match.. just kidding

[vernal hedge]

Make it so spike traps can only hit you once per time they trigger, it's annoying if you happen to lag exactly when crossing one and it hits you 3 times in a row and kills you

[ocean tree]

@tawdry sailyour groups just suck, we share the loot 😄

[spark crest]

Hotfix#17
Bard will no longer provide any buff to its teammate unless sing it out loud via voip.

[tiny wigeon]

AHAHAAHHA Man U funny

[icy egret]

is there going to be transfering loot between characters any time soon?

[cerulean kestrel]

Skill issue tbh

[granite plinth]

use more rgb bro

[vernal hedge]

instructions unclear, need sunglasses because keyboard is too bright

[tranquil plaza]

day 100000 of asking bard nerf ability to throw drums NEEDS to be removed or dmg nerf by 60%

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500658/remove-drum-throwing go upvote that and all other post about drums thank you 🙂

[foggy kiln]

I suggest increasing the drop rate of the gold coin chests. Currently, the value of these chests can sometimes rival that of named weapons. However, the only purpose of the gold coin chest is to store coins. I believe its practical value far exceeds its inherent worth.

[vernal hedge]

it will always be very expensive regardless of drop rate has its a loot hoard only drop, and this is on purpose.
if anything i'd say what we need is a middle ground between the troll gold pouch and the treasurer ones, like a wolfskin only pouch

[orchid zodiac]

daily complaint that rogue sucks hard unless turbo geared and then he is somewhat ok

[foggy kiln]

Yeah, that’s also a good choice

[hoary moon]

remove weapon damage from every damn item already.

keep it on weapons and jewelry or something people should not have +20 or more weapon damage, shit is super busted.

[silver dock]

Not just because of lag but in general why am I getting damaged from spikes that are down? Theres a spike trap in gc in front of the static exit that you simply cannot avoid taking damage from, unless as a rouge. Every other trap is avoidable but that one, and I usually walk past it because its never really worth going in to take damage both ways. Whats the point of being able to set them off with torches if theyll pop right back up and take damage when theyre down anyways?

[snow forum]

fix the game the ppl who made this just r not all there fs mentally handicap

[sour pewter]

rogue needs some kind of defensive skill

[wet stream]

hide, smokescreen, backflip, doube jump, and move speed are rogues defenses. they are meant to either assassinate a target, or to yeet themselves out of sticky situations with ease.

Personally, the best way to play rogue is to avoid combat altogether and literally just open big lockpick chests like golden chests. XD

[vernal hedge]

If you are seriously saying backflip is a defense you never played rogue.
It animation locks you in place, making you easier to hit

[wet stream]

Oh yes, sure I've never played rogue, that's why I personally shared my favorite way to play rogue and the defenses I've used doing so. if they do hit you during a backflip, guess what? what kind of hit will it be? not a headshot, that's for sure. it's going to be a limb hit. Enemy swings at your head and it's suddenly gone! Lol

[vernal hedge]

so just use double jump, way better control over you movement and you can have smoke bomb and hide that way
thumble has is, is a trolling ability, it's slow, predictable and locks you into place, would be usable if instead of that complicated animation they just made it a quick backstep and then it might even see use in a regular rogue's kit for a solid 1v1 movement skill

[wet stream]

I love that suggestion for the backstep

[vernal hedge]

they can even keep both because tbh thumble looks cool af, I just wish they made more skills have a purpose and solid use has any person you see it's a 50-50 for you to guess their abilities, or with some classes a straight 100%(never seen a fighter without sprint and second wind)

[wet stream]

To be fair though, I don't use tumble much, but that is because rat rogue is just SOOOOO lucrative right now.

[wet stream]

Yeah and on my fighter, at least in GC I'll take adrenaline rush over sprint. longsword attacking with adrenaline rush is so chefs kiss

[rancid pebble]

Would be cool if it was backstep unless you jumped then it was backflip

[vernal hedge]

yep, ruins is my main map, I did a few solo HR rogue runs(going hell) and after luck potion and fee I was making less money than on ruins. While taking longer and being more stressed.
So i'm glad they are changing loot tomorrow because there literally no reason to play HR crypts unless you are bossing

[vernal hedge]

I like this, having a conditional that can change how the skill works

[wet stream]

yeah they haven't exactly said HOW they are going to adjust it, but I'm sure it will be less items per chest, but they need to fix their fix, because I'm pretty sure they did like a % reduction, which left some chests just.... empty.

[vernal hedge]

yep ive also found those empty chest, had never seen them before, had me second guessing if some rat went ahead and was closing chests ahead of me

[naive walrus]

I wonder if Ironmace giving us a patch heads up means they are looking for preemptive feedback?? I don't hate the loot rate pullback but I think the merchants should then sell a bit more greens/blues. The current loot situation is awful for the economy of the game but is great for the health. It feels easier to compete with sweats and it makes going to high roller feel less punishing, and since you have decent gear you actually want to go high roller to get the Supreme gear.

Another note is that highroller goblin needs to have less blue portals. The passive/teaming lobbies is pretty awful. It's just pve farm basically or 1 person vs the whole lobby. Sounds drastic but there should only be 3 or 4 blue portals and the escape route.

[granite plinth]

hell portals should only appear on high roller

[rancid pebble]

I get what ur saying but the inflation of loot makes it pretty meaningless. One highroller game can get you full blues and purps. There needs to be a balance between the op loot from the past patches and the loot from last wipe.

[naive walrus]

Totally agree, i think they can get a really good sweet spot by decreasing drops from the duengons and increasing the greens/blues (greens mainly) from the traders. Only so that more casual people can still be geared enough to compete withou having to dump hours into gold grinding.

[crystal quail]

Buff TUMBLE, give the rogues some fun beyond hiding

[hot hemlock]

Make tumble infinite as long as you hold the key

[candid condor]

The way to help undergeared players should be ironmace adding environmental damage to all maps. On goblin caves it can be flipping a switch to make fire traps go off or arrows shoot somewhere. On crypts it can be rigging boulders to fall when people are chasing you or releasing a bunch of mobs on an area at once. I think this could be a great way to make more strategic play or help undergeared players have a chance against caped players.

[rotund notch]

sounds cool, but i can see cloaked rogues camping these switches and make passing through certain rooms/hallways a nightmare

[hot hemlock]

🤷‍♂️

[candid condor]

most rooms wouldnt have traps it would most likely be a few hallways and a room or two. just a place where ungeared players can take a risk that most caped players wouldnt. so you would only have to deal with rogues camping it if u were already taking a risk entering the room

[rotund notch]

right, so this could effectively create "no go zones" is all im thinking. People might wholesale avoid certain paths because of the risk of running into someone camping a trapped room or hall

[candid condor]

most would be hallways or rooms where there are 2 paths to go. you would most likely never have to go into one of these rooms unless u wanted to. to get people actually going into them u just put a crazy bounty of loot in them to let them choose weather to get the loot while risking being hit by a trap or leave it be

[vernal hedge]

step 1: find the longest room in dark and darker
step2: find 2 other rogues, the more the better
step3: line-up
step4: at the first indication of a players all rogues tumble in a line

if you can change direction with that tumble maybe just circle around the arena in hr crypts map

[hot hemlock]

🙂 im glad you understand the hallway deathtrap

[rotund notch]

Im not sure adding the crazy bounty to the room would help neccessarily. It makes it an even bigger target to camp IMO. The first party that gets there gets all the bounty and has positional advantage to use the rooms traps to help take out any other parties trying to get at the rooms wealth.

[candid condor]

it most likely wouldnt just be a ton of high value chests. it would be like a mini version of the boss room in the middle of the crypts and would give time for a lot of players to get a jump on anybody trying to clear it, If they did end up clearing to you would look into the room and see its been cleared, Most traps wouldnt be room wide it would be a part of the room where u can get hut in

[wet stream]

I think traps that activate once, but make a path blocked would be nice, like a boulder trap

[candid condor]

yea i could see it. could help ungeared players get away or help set up a strategy. I think most traps shouldnt kill unless u tank them multiple times but should just help get an advantage in a fight.

[wet stream]

Yeah, not like, pitfall traps that you'd die to if you landed in them. Lol But then again..... rofl

[wet stream]

Thinkin about how, you know, the purpose of the traps from a dungeon owner standpoint IS to kill you. XD

[light stirrup]

Once again suggesting making gold bags and chests more accessible. Not even taking the state of the economy into account. Just have the treasurer sell them 🙄.

[wet stream]

I 100% fully agree with this. People trying to sell these bags for 15 grand.....

[candid condor]

true it would make more lore sense for you just to die to them but that sounds so unfun to fight against so lets just say this was a lazy dungeon owner

[wet stream]

or take a page from Greed is Good and allow us to buy a bigger "vault" for our stash..... Our stash is probably at our hideout.... OHHHHHH what would be AWESOME is if you could go to a "Hideout" map that's customizable. that would be SWEET.

[light stirrup]

Yeah lemme spend 15k on a bag that holds 500 and barely saves space 😂 actually ridiculous.

Another "page" for stash would be good, or however they wanna do it. Increase stash space or make containers more available imo.

[signal storm]

I want to suggest a training ground! A place to test sets...maybe even against your team friends. No loss of gear or anything. Just basically permanent encampment like right before a match with some testing dummies and some friends that you don't have to try and figure out stuff in the 5 seconds before your match loads up

[glacial sphinx]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/501389/buffs-to-weak-perksskills-1

[candid condor]

all those would be great changes

[glacial sphinx]

Thanks!

[ripe turtle]

I would like Ironmace to fix skin change voices. If I put Orc male skin on, it would be nice to hear male voice instead of female voice. Makes kinda sense, no?

[meager oasis]

Make dungeons longer please, never time to loot after a fight @dawn grotto @keen onyx ❤️ Thank you

[worthy iron]

Where are you hearing voices

[gilded silo]

larger maps where spawn campers have to go through more mobs is more ideal

[oak current]

Hello guys if you like the Bard and thinks he deserves a rework go check this suggestion ! 👍 https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500729/serious-bard-rework

[meager oasis]

That isn't the issue. The problem is fighting right off the start of the dungeon, but then zone is already closing and you can't loot. They slowed down the TTK and added a new ring but didn't add any time to the dungeons.

[gilded silo]

with a larger map youll have plenty of time im sure

[meager oasis]

Larger map means nothing if the timer isn't increased though, that would just add more issues

[gilded silo]

im sure if they make the map larger they would also increase the timer(circle), but yes i do agree that the current timer should be adjusted

[meager oasis]

True, I just dont think the maps need to be larger lol. I dont have any issues with map size or not having enough space to manuever. It's literally having to right click the dead persons inventory as fast as humanly possible, and then needing to run without looting anything on the way to zone. It's an issue that could be solved by adding a few minutes the total dungeon time.

[meager oasis]

Though a bigger 3-man map would be enticing for sure

[gilded silo]

with a larger map i feel like it would attract more people to the game, the current gameplay feels as though it rewards more pvp(ignoring rooms and rushing spawns, im not personally agaisnt it but still sucks when i need gold to buy kits and get bomb rushed by a group with all purples) than actually looting and shooting if that makes sense

[meager oasis]

Are you are suggesting a bigger map to add to the PVE and allow PVP to still be a factor if you choose? Just trying to understand haha

[gilded silo]

yes

[meager oasis]

Gotcha, ya that could be fun without taking away from the PVP sweats. I feel you on that

A tad more space between drop spots basically

[gilded silo]

or maybe lower the player lobby for trios, solos and duos seem ok to me, but the trios its always third party fights after third party on top of a third party, especially with circle closing so fast

[calm oxide]

maybe they should disable market next wipe and see where it goes?

[waxen flame]

🗣️

[bold shell]

i believe the only thing bard needs is a sidestep ability like the backflip from rogue to become a cool musketeer

[calm oxide]

and have treasure goblin have infinite stock to feed the market addicts

[tranquil plaza]

please no..bard is op already

[waxen flame]

Tap a/d with your movespeed buffs up lmao

[bold shell]

well if and i mean by it if they add the movement balance it would be alright

[bold shell]

lol thought the same in a way or another

[nova mango]

make the sone take longer to close, cant have long fights without getting zone-fucked

[oak current]

Well ye it can be funny but it keeps im going to a fighting way and not a support way, what i mean in my suggestion is that the bard is good enough for fighting, but what's about the support way, it sucks hard now so the only for of a good support is playing cleric :/

[analog sierra]

less people on ruins

[harsh hull]

What do you guys think of passive shrine effects? Like a small area buff around them corresponding to what the altar does

[gusty lily]

please let us sell stuff without being present in a chat. the player market in this game is from the 80s.

[dusty wedge]

Please up vote being able to report VoIP abusers. No one should have to hear bigotry or hate speech in 2023

[tranquil plaza]

u can always turn off voip

[dusty wedge]

Irrelevant but thanks for the reminder

[tranquil plaza]

bards needs a super big nerf..makes no sense that support char does 100+ dmg on Bodyshot with xbow oh and dont forget those drums that also do 100+ dmg oh wait thats not all he also got good defence and super fast

[nimble ledge]

Let fighters wear more cloth type helmets. Right now fighters with the slayer perk can only equip the lether cap. Please allow fighters to wear rubysilver cap and rubysilver hood, we need more options!

[grave coral]

My daily Get Better Servers suggestion. Rubberbanding and "It ended abnormally" are killing this game.

[spice harbor]

why do traps exist they are too op for the game remove them

[ripe turtle]

What do you guys think of healing percentages on healing potions and bandages? Leave a vote for my suggestion if you like the idea!

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/501166/changing-potion-and-bandage-healing

[wet dock]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/501478/armor-curve-is-too-linear

[round night]

We need a seperation of gear in some form, for example: Blue and below gear can play normals, Blue and above HAS to play HR (if you have any purple or above equipped, you go into HR automatically) - There is 0 fun in getting rolled every game by geared teams looking to clean out the lobby so they can kill boss in hell alone.

[mortal solar]

i think the reason why its so bad rn is because gear is really easy to get so alot of megasweats can spam gear into normal runs

[inland haven]

Fighter should be able to wear anything when he equips slayer. Could make it a more viable option (exceptions like flock or other wizards garments)

[mortal solar]

you know it would be really cool if fighter could just wear wizard clothes with it, it wouldnt really help him but it would look really silly and im all for that

[ivory quartz]

Yes a gear segregated queue is a good idea, we should implement something like this. I would prob go further and say that all blue items and above be restricted from normals.

[mystic yoke]

I honestly think gear segregation is a pretty bad idea. It should just have a proper MMR like every other game that exists, if you die a lot to mobs and never win PvP you should not really be in the same player pool as people who consistently stomp entire lobbies. Gear is much less a factor in that equation than player skill - similarly skilled players can kill a team with better gear and get a nice comeup. Mismatched skilled teams have the result decided before the fight even starts, regardless of gear.

[strong crag]

This Exactly!

[bold rain]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500580/make-strength-a-factor-in-how-fast-you-mine-ore

[daring trail]

Its only gonna get worse with them nerfing loot without a wipe!

[small furnace]

As long as they don't nerf the easiest way to make money in this game the economy will never fix.

#rogue message

Reminder that I did this in a matter of hours without buying any pieces of gear for my rogue just going in naked and with nothing every time. Gold mining in ruins is broken.

[hot hemlock]

Loot nerf im sure will be on the low roller end, HR will be incentivized and then everyone can stop complaining ab gear stomping

[hardy vector]

goblin archers and bolaslingers need a nerf

a single headshot by any goblin is a guaranteed death for any low geared player, not to mention bola slow lasts 15 seconds

[daring trail]

We will see, nothing is going to stop pub stompers from going normals with HR level kits.
Until you actually limit their ability, it will always exist.

[neat lava]

Suggestion: Reduce the number of stats in the game. No more weapon damage / physical power / true weapon damage etc... The multitude of factors that play into damage is making it impossible to balance.

[small furnace]

Nah, they called it a 'test'. They're gonna gut HR too despite it being worth it for the first time in HR history.

[ivory quartz]

Nope, these stats are fun and allow for gear to be powerful and thus worthwhile in obtaining. If you want to stop getting rolled suggest something else. We have already implemented this change twice already, and it was so bad that IM reverted that change within 48 hours on both occasions

[neat lava]

Maybe read what I said rather than inferring something I never stated. Instead of having 7 different stats that influence damage, make it two or three. That way they can have more refined balancing

[ivory quartz]

Yes, we can stop pub stompers going normals by simply banning them from doing so, Lets just prevent people from taking gear above green quality into norms. and Force people with gear into HR. Problem is solved.

[atomic yacht]

nerf bard

[mortal solar]

Are you of the genuine belief that bard is the problem?

[atomic yacht]

yes. bard killed me once in gob caves.

[tiny delta]

Game balance is so bad its hemorraging players atm, and the rest of you all think its fine.

[atomic yacht]

yea this game is super stale rn and the balance is awful

the devs are still terrified of nerfing ranger

[tiny delta]

I want to reinstall, but I want to play dark and darker, not two tap tapdancing

[neat lava]

Couldn't agree more. I can go into a normal lobby naked and leave with mostly greens and blues. It's too easy to gear up now. No excitement when looting.

[ivory quartz]

Game balance is fine, if you actually have gear.

[mortal solar]

I agree the balance is terrible but I don’t think bard is the problem, i mean, ranger is right there

[atomic yacht]

errrm but bard buffed someones stats!!! delete them!!!

[tiny delta]

Time to kill is horrendous for most PVP. Geared PVP is merely who has more stats. It's not interesting or fun.

[ivory quartz]

This i do agree with, loot is far too plentiful and has removed alot of the incentive most players have to keep playing, because they complete the gear progression so quickly. Loot needs to be tuned down hard, at least in norms.

[atomic yacht]

pvp is not at all skill based in this game even if ttk is high

[mortal solar]

By a very small amount now, what tbh,is fair but bard dont need a nerf and you are probably being sarcastic and im stupid

[atomic yacht]

he got the joke

[mortal solar]

I DID IT MA

[tiny delta]

I could care less what the color of the loot is, some rolls are completely unbalanced. A carefully curated set of green can (and should) be better then a rag tag set of purples. The current balance of weapon damage and stats, however, is just not fun to play with.

[ivory quartz]

Geared PVP is not a stat contest. Because after getting all your +weapon damage any additional added stats are diminishing returns. At that point the outcome is decided primarily on actual combat skill and positioning. Now sure geared vs non geared is just a stat contest, but when two geared players fight even if one is decked out in bis vs optimized blue and greens, it becomes a skill battle.

[atomic yacht]

i wish there was more skill expression aside from aim and longsword parries

[tiny delta]

I wish that was true but my experience has been otherwise this patch

[atomic yacht]

longsword is the only fun way to play a non caster cuz everything else required the same amount of skill expression as pyro from tf2

[mortal solar]

Ehh most encounters on geared people is, i saw you first my cleric buffed me up first and i got a 1shot built im the one that won ez

[tiny delta]

^^ exactly what I'm saying is not fun

[mortal solar]

Yea (sorry for my caveman language)

[neat mantle]

Add an Arena mode 1v1 2v2 3v3. Clear a module of mobs and randomize it per mode.
Bam. End game content.
Would put a stupid amount of hours into competitive 1v1

[hollow hemlock]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/16c7alc/aimbotters_running_rampant/

Please start pushing anti cheat

[arctic lagoon]

so whats the next big desire of change in the game

[lilac frost]

Remove the damn circle for me

[arctic lagoon]

think the shrink speed at the start needs to be slower then a bit faster at the end

[lilac frost]

I think it needs to me removed all together and extraction looting game doesn't need a circle it ruins the flow of the game. Instead of geared players fighting over high teir loot and less geared players fighting over lower tier loot, every just gets pushed to the middle and fights. Tarkov before the loot changes had this nailed high value loot rooms attract all the pvp and you can make some money on the less valueable areas. I think the circle ruins any natural flow of gameplay.

[hardy vector]

we need a limit to how many frans axes and throwing knives a character can hold

[lilac frost]

I fill by backpack with throwing knives idgaf

[hardy vector]

thats exactly why it needs a limit

[lilac frost]

Should there be a limit on arrows too? I think its fine if you want to bring 60 throwing knives into game

[hardy vector]

its not healthy for the game to have a barb with 40 fran axes that deal half ur health a hit and can be chucked super far.

also arrows are fully different

[lilac frost]

I'd say make them more expensive or deal less damage not make item limits

[arctic lagoon]

its that abilities should not scale so massively, its barb's insane buff power that breaks the projectiles

[hardy vector]

making them more expensive wont do anything, same with making them do less damage

[arctic lagoon]

do axes and throwing knives got any damage drop off?

[hardy vector]

either make fran axes and throwing knives not scale with strength and other buffs, or limit how many you can have

[arctic lagoon]

yes on the scale of active buffs

[hardy vector]

theres 0 reason a fran axe does 52 damage to the head

[arctic lagoon]

his abilities def should not add damage to the projectiles, its like giving a character a kraber in a melee focus game

[hardy vector]

"lets give the character that is supposed to be a tank and close range a fucking sniper that 2 taps"

[arctic lagoon]

slower wind up speed and less damage buffs

its kinda my same problems i got with ranger rn

[hardy vector]

also the fact a bard can still 2 tap barbs with a rapier

[latent socket]

bard must have slipknot on his note sheet or someth with how hard he hits lmao

[granite plinth]

how about adding a gear score to gear and applying it to match making so people that are full naked arent getting placed in games with people that fully geared in all purple or legendaries. It kinda sucks being under 15 and playing against lvl 20 or even lower levels that have had their friends transfer them gear and they just wipe the lobby.

[hybrid heath]

Portals need to be on the minimap "You had to be there to hear it" is stupid

[granite plinth]

Also, the warlock and bard do need a nerf the dark bolt of the warlock hits way to hard and the magical healing gear allows the warlock to heal way more then it should. also, how about making it so warlock cant get full heal off its hydra. I would say the ranger needs the ability to get its food back at a camp fire

In addition how about a bandage or healing pot on the wizard at the start.

Also, you should really add a button in to report people in trades that are selling gold or items for real world money

and how about getting rid of the text based trade and and adding in a market system where people can put their items for sale like an auction house

text based trade it so 1970's lol

[hybrid heath]

portals on minimap would promote more pvp over portals. Audio and rng based extraction isn't a good way to increase difficulty.

[oblique rover]

Make epic and above gear actually rare, epic also should only drop from HR, same with higher rarity gear. Epic should be 5% drop from all sources on HR, legendaries 1%, and Unique should be less than 1% only from bosses on HR. There should be no reason you can find gear with quintuple the statage as white in normal matches.

[granite plinth]

still defeats the purpose as some geared out chad can still get in matches with all naked people

[stuck perch]

Fine take healing off of hydra but give us back our Elritch shield at 40hp for the cost of 5. Darkness bolt is fine as is, if you think it hits too hard then you need to nerf every other class because it's ridiculously meh. It's like a weaker Ice bolt that doesn't slow.

[granite plinth]

gearscore for match making would be better, also dark bolt can 2 hit fully geared people so idk what your talking about

[raven idol]

this all the way. this is what i’ve been saying to this community for so long

[oblique rover]

Gearscore for matchmaking defeats the purpose of being getting geared, obviously this fix would solve the problem, but it would take away from the game itself. PT3 had it right with drops, sure there were geared people in normal matches but it was like 1 in 30 matches. Now it is every match theres 2 to 3 teams full purple or above.

[raven idol]

gigachad groups/players with high grade gear on SHOULD be playing against the same so they actually have to risk their gear. right now it’s a field day in matches because not everyone has the gear that capped baldys have and don’t have a chance to even get to that point.

[granite plinth]

agreed

people should be going against people with the same gear level

[granite plinth]

it doesnt defeat the purpose, such a pointless comment

[raven idol]

it would just need to be tweaked so there’s a score on the gear and the matches, kind of like the cycle:frontier had. imo as well, they should get rid of the circle closing like BR and make it a 25-30 min. match so you can loot and explore the map to make money without getting pushed to fight. a fight should come naturally not forced

[granite plinth]

you sound like every geared out chad out there that cant kill anyone buy nakeds or that has gear fear. fight people that are geared out to the same level as you and that have the same amount of perks unlocked, taking below 15 out was a big mistake

[cobalt root]

Not sure if this would be a good idea or not, but I think it might be pretty interesting:

introducing the various arrow types from the Thief game series (also applying the same to bolts) :

• water arrows/bolts to put out light sources from a distance
• blunt arrows/bolts with less damage, but adds knockback
• fire arrows/bolts that add a tiny bit of burning damage, light up the ground/wall where it hits temporarily, or lights an unlit light source (would be a rare type)
• noisemaker arrows/bolts which make a continuous loud noise for 5-10 seconds (prevent people from hearing you run, or open doors etc). If possible it would also be neat if they could draw monsters towards the sound

[oblique rover]

I get that also circle imo is kinda unnecessary, especially since it closes very quickly

[raven idol]

i agree with you but since the beginning they shouldve had GBMM, i feel like that’s all the balance we would need. or at least trial it in a patch or something

[granite plinth]

we need a public pts

[raven idol]

idk how devs would even see these comments to try GBMM anyway…. just hopeful wishing at this point

[oblique rover]

Your tripping on something my guy, the game is not meant to be fair, if you want fair play Chivalry. This is an extraction game at its core, which means a lot of times you go in out gunned or out manned or both.

[raven idol]

yeah but it’s consistently outgunned and outgeared. i get what your saying, it’s good at its core and the fundamentals, but it’s a problem when you don’t even have a chance to get higher gear because of consistent higher level players. that’s where balancing comes in to play

[oblique rover]

Which is mostly been a problem since epic was introduced into regular matches.

You cant increase the drop rate of actual best in slot items by over 1000% then say that's not where the issue lies.

[granite plinth]

lol your tripping if you think new players and low levels should have to fight decked out lvl chads my guy

lvl 20

[oblique rover]

That is literally what extraction game means, if that isnt what you like then request a refund.

[granite plinth]

#small brain my guy

I mean really thats how you kill off anyone wanting to start playing this game as a new player

if they actually want to make money and have people stick around and add more content in the shop they need to make the match making balanced

and simplist way to do that is to do the match making by gear score and level so below 15 with up x gearscore and above up to x gear score

[candid jay]

The biggest argument lately is how lower geared players cant compare to higher geared players. I personally think that this is due to the more fast paced circle and how each map centers on an area making the game more like a battle royale than extraction looter game. If we had more permanent extracts or just didn't force everyone to converge in one area then more lower geared players could go about their business without always fighting a group of legendary geared players trying to go to hell. I also think that there just needs to be a greater incentive for higher geared players to go to high roller instead of bullying lower geared players in normal queue.

[granite plinth]

IT NOT JUST CRPYS BUT RUINS AND 1 ON 1 IN CAVES

i mean mean the circle would do much and dedicated extracts would be camped by rogues and geared players

aslo again it comes back to adding a gear score to gear and making the queues gearscore and level based

they also need to fix some some of the mechanics and other things in this game before releasing new content get the fundamentals fixed first like the match making animations and sthings

they need to realease a pts and add it in and see how it works with a large group of people and get community feedback prior

[oblique rover]

Dude is a troll, obviously just come here to vent about how badly hes getting destroyed. No actual constructive suggestions.

[granite plinth]

lol my guy ive got gear doesnt mean i dont think they still need to fix these things

sounds like your a no skill player that relies on having good gear and fighting nakeds and doesnt want things to change for the better of the entire player base

when you get past fighting a naked lvl 3 to lvl 10 let me know my guy

[frozen gust]

Please make Rubysilver leather cap available to fighters. Its the only head piece available to slayer and making the rubysilver one usable by fighters would help with this.

[minor lake]

It becomes a problem because if you play 3man map there is almost ALWAYS these days a team just running around killing everyone, Not looting or anything just out to kill lower geared players that doesnt stand a chance.

[candid jay]

portals are already camped anyway it wouldnt change much, im saying both portals and perma extracts

[granite plinth]

agreed

i mean i kill low tiered players and almost never take their stuff. just the higher tier collectables

[minor lake]

Most times they dont even stop to loot, just run past looking for the next targets..

[granite plinth]

its an issue that needs to be fixed

[round night]

im not touching goblin caves until they nerf drum damage, fucking ridicolous

[granite plinth]

hahahahah lol right

i play ranger and bring 8 traps 2 camps and 4 of each heal for bandage and pots, i find somewhere in midd of circle to camp and lay my traps then shoot people in head with true shot and purpl crossbow

easy kills, just plant traps at doors and turn off the lights

nothing like 2 shotting a lobster too the face with a windlass you know

my windlas build withy gear hits 169 headshot on dummies

[drowsy grotto]

Can the game just remove/nerf half of the slow effects from PVE
I love walking into a room and then moving at 30% speed just because I got hit by a little grass hopper or something

[quiet hatch]

Great idea maybe for ranger introduce different arrow types for different types of damage to add a buff or change their functions a bit

[granite plinth]

how about a crafting function to breakdown all our unwanted gear for materials we can use to trade to trader for named objecys and better gear

insted of having to sell ranger magical traited gear to tailor for 5g a piece

[sick timber]

Does anyone know if they've discussed adding an item quality border to items in your inventory? Would make it easier for people to loot items quickly/sort inventory/overall QOL improvement.

[lilac frost]

As someone who has never had good gear fundamentally gear based matchmaking sucks and ruins the excitement of the game. Outplaying a geared guy is half the fun of games in this genre. I think incentivize high roller more would be a good addition, gear based matchmaking would not be a good thing.

[ivory quartz]

Great idea best suggestion I have heard all week

[lilac frost]

I feel like this is common sense but I didn't even think of it

[sick timber]

cant tell if sarcasm orrrr

[ivory quartz]

not sarcasm, you have legitimately made the best suggestion in this chat all week. Everyone else here makes horrible and biased suggestions about balance. Your's legitmate would increase quality of life for all players, I wish we had a post on the website so we could upvote it.

[sick timber]

Give me a few minutes. I'll make one worth upvoting. And I appreciate the reply 🙂

[livid mason]

nerf ranger and force them to build manual dexterity for reloading and shooting

[ivory quartz]

Somewhat agree, ranger needs some dex or even base movespeed removed, they run away too fast, and are too good at kiting. Once you close the distance on ranger they should be dead, and not able to continue to run away. That is why they have tools to keep you at distance like traps and the spear.

[sick timber]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/501567/simple-qol-suggestion-add-an-item-quality-border-to-improve-looting-efficiency-a

[ivory quartz]

upvoted

[sick timber]

Very in depth comprehensive post with sources and references documented.

[real trellis]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/501570/please-add-gold-ore-to-other-maps

[worn lava]

I'm seeing more and more towards later time like we are now in the wipe people are purpled out and killing not whole lobbies like before but damn near the whole lobby i think a bigger map will do it add a really big map that has people just more areas more pve not many encounters with people a place to secure loot at a higher rate and getting out at a higher rate its a L for geared people as they will now encounter more geared people and likely loose some loot but its a W for everyone who isnt kitted and doesn't have the game down on how to make huge amounts of gold quickly

[drowsy grotto]

The fact they'll never nerf ranger is an actual fucking mystery to me
Simply just lowering the damage of the long bow would be enough

[desert wedge]

barbs need some sort of range capability like javelins (used like bows and arrows)

[gilded ether]

I would prefer unidentified items, that you have to hover the mouse on em until they are identified, with timer related to knowledge

[edgy quartz]

Why not warlock Re-summon skelly bones from dead mobs.

[sick timber]

Why not have both?

[gilded ether]

True

[fast hill]

Add scrolls of identity and loot filters

[vernal hedge]

god id hope not, what would be the point of adding an arbitrary waste of time to look at every item you get?

[waxen flame]

it's mostly to force players to not loot mid fight/be a bit vulnerable

imo it fits better in tarkov where other players can like, headshot/nade/anything you, some fighter in plate slowly walking towards the room you're in probably wouldn't matter

[vernal hedge]

considering how much slower, time limited this game is this would be an awful change, I can spent 45 minutes looting in streets, but only 15 in a raid here, and that not even taking into account the zone and everything

[waxen flame]

if stealth and ranged were more of a feature and map size was bigger/more open i could see it working but this game isn't really tarkov, so yah i agree

[small furnace]

Not JUST a waste of time, but also force us to fill our inventory with crap items that end up being "Memory slots +1" when we get back lmao

[vernal hedge]

yah like, I do not know a single game with item identification where the players enjoy item identification, its a waste of time, cumbersome and stupid

[small furnace]

Also idk how so many geared teams have fun hunting down randoms. I played fully geared tonight for like 20 raids in a row and for the most part we enjoyed doing 'robin hood' stuff where we'd hunt down the other geared teams and then give the loot we get from them to the random nakeds in the lobby. (Unless they attacked us on site in which case ofc we have to defend ourselves)

[real trellis]

Ranger has been nerfed several times, it's just that it hasn't been enough/the right nerfs

[vernal hedge]

outside of trap placement speed I can't recall of a single ranger nerf outside of times everyone was nerfed(like rarity scalling, or all weapons being nerfed)

[small furnace]

The thing is there's a giant disconnect between the higher end of the game and the lower end. Wizard and Warlock both have much better ranged options available to them than ranger and are more flexible and capable of more damage than ranger.

Ranger however is easier to play, and also less gear dependent. So the lower end of players see them more and think they're crazy OP, the wizards/warlocks they see don't come close to the rangers they see.

[vernal hedge]

"Wizard and Warlock both have much better ranged options available to them than ranger" did you miss type this? otherwise my geared ranger would like a discussion with the mage on what better options he has when ill one shot hs him with a longbow

[small furnace]

Uh, yeah? I'd like to see your geared ranger take down a PDR fighter. Wizards sure do have that flexibility to take down any target they want. Can fireball to area deny, can haste/invis to buff their teammates and get out of a situation? Zap is a hitscan and is undodge-able if the wizard plays correctly whereas arrows are simply not. They can spam slow on you which is also hitscan that prevents you from dodging anything they might throw at you?

Do you wanna contest warlock too?

[real trellis]

Longbows got hit decently with the weapon dmg rebalancing that happened a while back, however with the current state of being able to get +8 dmg on every piece of gear this hardly matters. Longbow now only fires 2 arrows with quickshot. Traps now deal less damage, and no longer need a minigame to escape from. Ranger HAS been nerfed but like I said it's not enough and they haven't touched on the big issues like hitslow, but they did reply to a Q&A question about hitslow on arrows and that gives me hope they will lower those values at a later patch.

[small furnace]

As I said, ranger is the easier character thus people are more convinced they're broken because all they have to do is land a headshot. Wizard has to do a million more things right while also having good gear to be a threat.

I didn't even mention chain lightning which can INSTANTLY disrupt and kill an enemy team that is coordinating correctly.

[real trellis]

Ranger has more arrows than wizards have casts and arrows are much harder to see coming than a spell, especially at great ranges. A wizard can't sit on top of the towers in the Ruins sniping people trying to open a portal, but a ranger sure can.

[vernal hedge]

you are talking about utility, they dont have better ranged options tough wtf, all their spell have ridicoulous travel time while you can easily 2 shot them with gear, yes I want to contest a warlock too because he is free af, I can show you clips of me clobbering them in ruins

[small furnace]

What map are we talking here? Cause I'm pretty sure where all the late game stuff takes place is in HR crypts, and in that area there are very few rooms where a ranger prospers over a wizard. They do technically have more LONG ranged options, but most areas in HR crypts happen to be mid-range areas in which there is not a lot of room for rangers out out range a wizard.

[real trellis]

A wizard also can't shoot through windows in a closed door, nor can they set up a minefield of traps for an enemy team to have to either disarm or risk walking into

[small furnace]

Wizard can remove the door from being a part of the game. As can warlock. The fact you guys think that Ranger is somehow broken and don't recognize the power of the other two ranged classes kinda shows where we are.

[real trellis]

I didn't say Wizard and warlock aren't strong lol I'm just saying that ranger is better at range in most cases

[vernal hedge]

i quite literally put ruins in my message no?
and HR maps alike, theres plenty of open areas, if you wanna fight on the modules where the mage will have an advantage, that's on you, i'll gladly camp the tower in the middle and snipe their ass

[small furnace]

I'm not talking about Ruins. In my honest opinion Ruins is a bad map that is heavily ranger and rogue focused, that's a problem with ruins, not the classes themselves though.

For the record, I don't ever play on ruins even when I'm playing with 2 people as opposed to 3. It's just that bad of a map.

[zinc pulsar]

every class has it's advantages. i dont get this debate. i played ranger for the last 3 playtests and have only started switching up classes semi recently (fighter, rogue, cleric) and rangers have never been a problem for me. they are literally skelly archers with slightly better brains. count the arrows out and dont peek, get in close and literally 2 tap them no matter what gear they have on if you're kitted. brainless players

[vernal hedge]

bad for you maybe, but it's the best map to run for gold/gear at this current update

[small furnace]

Yeah it is, and it's a problem how easy it is to get gold on ruins. I literally have talked about this I have an entire stash full of gold purses from 3 hours of farming ruins risk free.

[real trellis]

lmfao ruins is not risk free anymore

[small furnace]

25 gold per run with pickaxe is no risk for the return. You say 'not risk free' I say easy money.

[vernal hedge]

idk, still feels pretty risk-free for a geared barbarian-rogue comp, it's actually one of the things that's killed this wipe for me a long with the stupid balance changes and overly abundant loot

[real trellis]

People come geared to the teeth to mine ore and kill anyone that they see, if you go to a mining spot you've got like a 25% chance of getting run up on by some butthead with bis purples and a named weapon

[small furnace]

You gotta get lucky with a good spawn close to one of them. If you get it then take it, if not then reset.

I'm not talking out my arse here I literally took advantage of this and I hate how easy it is.

[vernal hedge]

exactly, so become the demon's glee in your lobby

[real trellis]

More like let's have them remove gold ore from ruins and put it in HR where it belongs

[small furnace]

If you lose a 25g pick is that really that big of a problem? If you extract with even 5 gold ore you're making 600-1000g off of it. That is WAY too easy money with no risk.

[real trellis]

Like I said in my suggestion asking them to remove gold ore from ruins, HR is supposed to be more rewarding than normals but if you can get ~10 gold ore per ruins run why would you ever do anything else

[vernal hedge]

I think gold is fine in ruins, the issues isnt' that, the issue is that with loot being increased gold became the new gold key, and that's why it was so worth to run ruins

[keen scaffold]

are you on crack? wizards with base gear can kill geared players of any class with just 2-3 fireballs. For one, magic resistance does not scale with gear quality, even if there happens to be more yet not enough magic resistance spread across different pieces gear, there is no definitive way of dealing with magical damage.

[small furnace]

I'm underexaggerating because of the people who are heavily biased against ranger in chat to try and meet them on their level.

[real trellis]

Gold ingots being a standardized unit of value is much more sensible than keys and I'm fine with it but I think it needs to go to HR maps

[keen scaffold]

well rangers definitly need an autopsy with the nerfknife just like rogues got

[small furnace]

You kinda highlighted my point though that Wizards and Warlocks can kinda do whatever they want as it is. If rangers get a nerf then they should as well.

[vernal hedge]

no they don't, they need proper balance, the rogue nerfs were absolutely shit

[small furnace]

If ranged damage in this game should be nerfed then we should nerf all of it, not just rangers because they're the easiest ranged class to play.

[keen scaffold]

wym? the rogue nerfs neutered the class initially.

[real trellis]

base staff has awful cast speed so yes you "can" kill geared players of any class with just 2-3 DIRECT HIT fireballs but good luck managing it without getting domed with a crossbow bolt. Fireball is so easy to dodge getting direct hitted it's not even funny

[keen scaffold]

skill issue

[small furnace]

Realistically paying 12g for a grey spellbook is something anyone can afford after literally one successful extract.

[real trellis]

Doesn't change the fact that fireball is super easy to avoid, at least the direct hit portion of it

[vernal hedge]

thats exaclty what I mean?? I don't want a class to be dead, I want a class to be rebalanced, the only reason rogue is still playable now is because we have weapon damage on gear, remove that and rogue is back to pickpocketing only. aka shit balance

[keen scaffold]

i think if they just had gear with magic resistance as a base stat then the amount it gives should scale with gear quality, then wizards would get btfo

[small furnace]

If you can't hit people with it then you're using it wrong. It's a good spell. You just gotta use it correctly.

[real trellis]

Go the fuck back to #the-tavern if that's all you have to say

[real trellis]

Bro I am the one dodging the fireballs lmfao what are these assumptions "oh then every wizard you ever fought are bad lol" yeah good argument

[small furnace]

Actually no, sorry. I should make myself more clear. Wizard is NOT easy. So yes you'll find it harder to make good use of their spells. @real trellis

Most wizards are crap because it's hard to play wizard.

[keen scaffold]

obviously ive said enough for you to get so triggered

[real trellis]

This channel's for discussion if you're only interested in spouting pre-programmed lines to make people angry then go to #the-tavern they'll love you there

[small furnace]

I mean yeah? If you've ever been run down by a good wizard you'll know what it's like. ANY ranger can do that to you because ranger is a brain-unalive easy class. Wizard just isn't. It's really that simple, that's why so many people are convinced that ranger is busted but not so much with Wizard. Even though when it comes to the high skill level play of the game they are both equally deadly.

[keen scaffold]

i made my suggestion, its you who chooses to engage and continue the conversation over this skill issue you've been having.

[vernal hedge]

do you know the meaning of the word neutered @keen scaffold ?

[keen scaffold]

is this a serious question

[vernal hedge]

then I guess you have poor english understanding

[keen scaffold]

ok bud whatever you say

[real trellis]

you're talking out of your behind and then acting like it's someone else's problem, this seems to be a pattern for you, so luckily for you I will no longer be bothering to try to talk to you

[keen scaffold]

a pattern? you must have me confused with someone else

[small furnace]

Look all I'm saying is if we decide this should be a melee game where the melee classes are the stronger ones and the ranged classes are not as much, or maybe even give more emphasis to melee play for those classes then we should do it across the board and not just for the one that happens to be the easier of the 3 ranged classes.

[real trellis]

Most of the time when I get killed by wizards it's because they have some crazy height advantage on me and I can't get to them or get away without walking through very specific places that they'll just fireball on prediction lol, I very rarely lose if we're on even ground with shit for me to hide behind

[small furnace]

I mean I feel you but how often do you go into HR Crypts against other geared teams? Cause that's the kind of play I'm talking about really. I think it's important to keep in mind that the base level play of the game does exist and IS important, but we can't just solely balance around that as well.

Fact of the matter is Wizards and Warlocks are immensely powerful and prominent in these areas of the game.

I am not saying it should be ignored, but what I am saying is, it's kinda whack to just give one of the three ranged classes in the game the nerf hammer, removes a lot of counterplay for those other 2 ranged classes. If ranged damage is to be nerfed it should be nerfed on all of them.

[real trellis]

Yeah I mean warlock's not strong because of its ranged capabilities it's strong because it can throw down a hydra then heal off it with high magheal then proceed to spam CoP or whatever

[small furnace]

Warlock Curse of Pain has some of the strongest scaling for ranged spells though.

[real trellis]

It also has pretty bad range IIRC zap goes further

[keen scaffold]

and what i suggested would help immensely. Magic resist on gear just needs to scale with gear quality

there should be no reason gray rugged boots would give the same amount of magic resist as golden ones.

[small furnace]

I'd like to see what more widespread magic resist availability would do to the game, whether it would show that these two ranged casters will end up weaker than they originally would be otherwise. (Which to be fair they are IMMENSELY strong right now)

[real trellis]

A lot of the problems with this game would be less egregious if IM did away with +dmg of all flavors

[small furnace]

I don't think they should do that but I am for reducing the availability of it, restricting it lightly.

[keen scaffold]

its already been decently spread to more gear, now it just needs to increase like any other stat when you have better quality gear.

[small furnace]

That's what I'm saying, make it more stackable like it is with PDR currently.

[real trellis]

This might be a controversial take but I also think it might be interesting to have diminishing returns on stats be based on each class' starting value on that stat rather than having them all start giving less at XX value

This would make stacking 35 agi on barb much less effective and reduce the problems 35 agi on a barb brings about

[keen scaffold]

yeah cause if they did that, geared players wouldn't have to worry about the threat of a random naked wizard 2 shotting them from across the room. it seems silly to me that it is a thing.

[real trellis]

Perhaps caster gear like frocks and robes should have a non-scaling armor value but scaling magic resist value

[small furnace]

Caster gear having MR... while in-flavor... kinda doesn't contribute anything. Casters aren't the ones that need to survive hits.

[keen scaffold]

yeah all gear should scale magic resist with quality. why limit this to only casters?

[real trellis]

if + mgc dmg was limited to only be rollable on a couple items you wouldn't need much more MR than what is available but I get your point

[small furnace]

No that's not true. We would still want more because currently as it is a base kit wizard is very capable of killing a hyper geared fighter.

[keen scaffold]

you could say the same of physical/+ weapon damage and PDR.

[real trellis]

I think that's fine tbh

[keen scaffold]

this man is smoked

[real trellis]

Nobody should ever feel safe at any gear level

[small furnace]

I do not think that is fine. A ranger? Sure, they aren't tanky, a base kit anything could kill them if they get the jump.

A build that is supposed to be a tank and extremely geared? No, I think they can currently die too easily to wizards in grey kits.

[real trellis]

Any fighter at that gearpoint will be running a crossbow more than capable of oneshotting a base wizard

[keen scaffold]

if you're geared you shouldnt have to worry about someone with base gear being able to 2 tap you.

[small furnace]

The point of geared fighters, and some geared barbarians to a lesser extent is that they are supposed to be frontliners that can survive big hits. They should not be able to be taken out by a a DPS that is completely unkitted as fast as they can be.

[real trellis]

If they're that worried about it, have the warlock cast eld. shield on them

[keen scaffold]

only it is pretty safe for a wizard not risking anything to be able to 2 shot a player with much more at risk

[small furnace]

They shouldn't have to be 'worried' about it. The whole identity of the class is to be a tanky frontliner that can protect the squishy DPS players/supports. They should not have to worry about being 2-tapped by someone in a grey kit.

[real trellis]

Tank implies that they can't output damage on the same level as the "squishy dps" and that just isn't really the case

[keen scaffold]

that doesnt solve the heart of the issue in that your gear with magic resist doesn't have more then a gray piece of the same gear.

[small furnace]

They lack the ability to do so as effectively as the classes that are more itemized as DPS.

Sure a slayer fighter can output DPS but he's also sacrificing the tankiness to get that DPS.

[real trellis]

Slayer fighter is 5 damage and 10% swing speed better than a normal fighter but gains no bonus when using 2handers like spears and has no bonus when using crossbows

[keen scaffold]

15% actually

[small furnace]

15% actually edit: lmao

[keen scaffold]

and that 5 weapon damage is more then you realize

[real trellis]

15%, sure. Slayer fighter also has the privilege of basically being a worse barbarian

[keen scaffold]

you really are smoked

[real trellis]

Does anyone run slayer fighter in hr lobbies

[keen scaffold]

in solos 100%

[small furnace]

Anyway, the reason that fighter and barbarian aren't as effective as outputting DPS is not because they do no damage. It's because they have no method to consistently get DPS out onto people. A tanky fighter is slow, he cannot catch people even with sprint. A barbarian has to get RIGHT UP in your face to get someone.

A fighter can have a crossbow sure, but that isn't as effective of a DPS tool as all the other ranged DPS are, and a barbarian's throwing axes are the same.

@real trellis Yes, me. Only GC HR though, it would be suicide in crypts HR

[real trellis]

You say all that as if people don't intentionally run bard+wizard to juice that armored fighter/barb's move speed to supersonic levels

[small furnace]

Aaaand... why do you think they have been targeting nerfs at that exact mechanic for the last 3 patches? It's not balanced, it's not how the game is intended to be played.

[real trellis]

And yet it still happens because Ironmace can't nerf high end but continually dumpsters low-end play

[small furnace]

That doesn't really change what I said though, it's still a valid proposition.

[keen scaffold]

that i can agree with

[small furnace]

It is very clear that IM has shown they are very 'green' in terms of this whole balance thing yes.

[real trellis]

In a perfect world where fighters and barbs don't get speed boosted to hell and back then sure I'm fine with more accessable MR

but as it is currently, fuck no. Fighter has exactly one weakness (magic) at high gear and they need to stay weak to magic until we don't see buffball strats anymore

[small furnace]

I mean even with their incredibly high juice they are still killable, you know?

I played a geared ranger earlier today I was headshotting 120s, a fighter with 80% PDR is still taking 25 damage per headshot. They will still go down, they're still killable.

They would still be killable by wizards too even if they could have higher MR. So I don't see the issue, they just won't die to grey kitted wizards as often.

[real trellis]

Do fighters just not run shields anymore

[small furnace]

A shield does not entirely solve the problem of a ranger pelting you. Certainly gives you an advantage but it doesn't solve it. Trust me I wiped like 20 lobbies tonight on my ranger.

Like I said we were doing 'robin hood' killing all the geared juicer teams and giving their gear to the nakeds in our lobbies.

[real trellis]

Also you're forgetting about the additional projectile reduction plate has so you're looking at more than 80%

[small furnace]

They were still killable either way. 80% is an extreme example anyhow, most high geared fighters will be around 60%

[keen scaffold]

and that weakness would remain because at higher levels of play, casters will have access to more magic damage and magic pen. As it is right now, this "weakness" is more like a design flaw that kills the motivation to play the class.

imagine getting juiced on a fighter only to get fireballed then zapped from a wizard with base gear.

[small furnace]

Dunno that it kills motivation, definitely makes our playstyle weaker though. Whenever my fighter sees even a basic kitted wizard he refuses to frontline until I've dealt with them.

[real trellis]

In tarkov there is a chance for an undergeared player to kill even the most geared player by being skilled enough to hit head,eyes before they get killed. There is no such chance in DaD except in the case of gray wizards vs fighters

[mortal solar]

and ranger vs any class tbh

[real trellis]

Not really. A base gear ranger's kit is pretty garbage. If you whiff the triple shot it's over

[mortal solar]

buy a grey longbow for like 12 gold and you can take out decently geared people, especially if you lay traps around in corpses of zombies

[keen scaffold]

yeah really ranger needs to be looked at just as much as this magic resist thing

[small furnace]

You can kill any geared player as any class in a basic kit as long as they're not one of the classes that has resistances.

[real trellis]

That's not skill that's luck, bodies are not always consistent across users

[small furnace]

Like an unkitted slayer fighter can kill a fully geared ranger, bard, warlock, wizard... if he just gets in there. It's possible. The classes without resistances can die if they are careless or get unlucky.

[real trellis]

If the wizard is too stupid to cast magic missile at point blank, you mean.

And no, you're not killing a geared bard as an ungeared slayer fighter lol. They can use good melee weapons too and they're selfbuffed to shit. I can tell you this from personal experience.

[small furnace]

I don't want to insult you but if you think that's a good solution for an unkitted slayer fighter with say a white arming sword running up to you and hitting you in the head then I do not know what to say to you.

[real trellis]

You're also very unlikely to manage killing a geared warlock as they're going to be infinitely healing off their hydras

[small furnace]

I mean at this point I'm just narrating my own experience, cause I've killed gear types of all these classes as an ungeared slayer fighter.

[real trellis]

If someone's too close to you for fireball and you can't keep kiting with zap then your last ditch effort is to cast magic missile and hope you outdps them, which isn't going to be hard on a geared wizard lol

[gilded ether]

Add a goblin area in crypts, they breed a pack of wolves and behind a small bar theres a goblin merchant you can interact with

[real trellis]

magic missiles come out pretty fast on a geared wizard and they each do about as much damage as that fighter is going to per swing

[small furnace]

If you say so. I don't really care enough to continue this atm so I'll just go.

[real trellis]

It's very much a last ditch effort but they either have to back off to dodge or they have to commit and take at least half of your shots to the chest

On a geared wizard 5 magic missiles is more than enough to 100-0 your ungeared slayer fighter

[twilit crater]

for sure mm is a great option if you really need to close range. killed a lot of people from various gear levels with them

but it really depends who you are hitting because if some hyper geared fighter is point blank you are getting 1 tapped by a falcion. if they manage to get it off that is

[real trellis]

Yeah but in this hypothetical we're talking geared wizard vs ungeared fighter

At best you're rocking a white viking sword or something with 30 dmg (so 35 with slayer boost)

And yeah that might twoshot the geared wizard if both hits are headshots, or it might not if the wizard happens to have decent strength via +1 all gear

But you're not outdpsing those magic missiles

[keen scaffold]

you'd think that the SURGEON would have a SURGICAL KIT for sale.

[abstract swallow]

he does, you just don't have your merchant rep high enough yet

[celest pagoda]

broo give clerics javelins only character without ranged

[vernal hedge]

They have spells

[celest pagoda]

gotcha wizard has how many? still gets crossy? bard has grey drums that hit nice and hard still gets crossy?

[shadow fiber]

duuude why does ranged projectiles travel so fast. i swear they don't even have to lead you if you dont have 320+ ms

im just getting bodyshot over and over again mid range by a longbow and no amount of juking is doing anything other than get me hit center mass

[vernal hedge]

I don’t think wizard should have access to crossbow so that’s 1, bard doesn’t really have that many options so I’m fine with it, but drum shenanigans shouldn’t be a thing, or dmg severly reduced.

And cleric doesn’t need to be able to do everything, he already has the only healing in the game and a pretty okay dmg spells, but he is focused at being an healing support. No need to give them a crossbow imo

[clear tiger]

Do you just build rep by buying bandages? A little confused by this I didn't know there was rep with merchant

[dense sonnet]

no rep hes a dumb ass

[abstract swallow]

no, I was being silly
it was just a goof
merchant rep isn't implemented yet

[twilit void]

Hello SDF.
Remove hr goblin caves in normal queue.
Thank you, god bless you.

[clear tiger]

Oof lmao thanks for the clarification

[naive elk]

We should have missions exclusive for HR maps or bosses only in HR would be a nice incentive to people go there, craft material aswell. The missions would gave gold or supply like potions etc, nothing too crazy.

[celest pagoda]

i think the dnd goes off dnd lore so im fine with characters having their respected weapons and shit but cleric the only one not held up to his lore which is javelins reason why rogues got hand crossy and not just the crossbow

[vernal hedge]

Characters are based of the dnd ones yah, but lacking in a lot of places. Like rogues needing a perk to equip hand crossbows lol or how rangers get a perk for spears that also increases their dmg

[celest pagoda]

well you gotta balance shit out tbh on a game like this like so i get it tho i quit rogue with all them nerfs and i wouldnt mine having to use a perk for javelins since clerics dont use anything else in dnd lore

[glacial hinge]

buff coblat/ ruby?! seems like alot of work for waiting on rolls... for exact same armor rating

[mellow sapphire]

same armor and everything just 1 less roll

[winged mortar]

Scrap the loot system entirely. Call it a fail. Try the skill tree. Add items really slowly after balancing the game around the skill tree.

[mellow sapphire]

devs have not even started on skill tree. Otherwise they would have implemented that first and balanced it like you said. They should just focus on introducing it since all the balance changes before wont even matter

[glacial hinge]

more so compared to normal gear, not coblat vs ruby

[ancient smelt]

Customizable kits/loadouts https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/501679/customizable-kitsloadouts

[stoic narwhal]

@mellow sapphire AFAIK the skill tree isn't actually new content, just will be a way to unlock the perks we currently have.

[real trellis]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/501570/please-add-gold-ore-to-other-maps I am once again shilling my post

[tender seal]

Wizards with crossbows is like dungeons and dragons 101 - how dare you

[glacial hinge]

🥚 hatch notes 🍳

[formal granite]

TURN UP THE LOOT, nobody and I mean nobody but streamers want to play this game 12 hours a day just so we can do high roller, turn up the freaking loot!

[glossy vigil]

up ? are u dull or something it's perfect as it is now but they're prolly gonna nerf it today

[formal granite]

so you think casuals should struggle to get anywhere because it needs to be harder for the top 1% streamers? thats a joke bro and why the game is dying, people are getting tired of grind simulator, TURN UP LOOT

[glossy vigil]

jsut play like a rat, I made 10k gold in two days playing solo rogue in ruins, you just don't want to learn

you realise that the market is already in shambles because of the loot rate rn I don't mind really but you can't ruin the game for everybody cuz game too hard boohoo

[formal granite]

you fail to understand that I have money and do high roller so am not struggling by any means but its like pulling teeth to get friends into the game at its current state. either be like you and spend 12 hours a day sweating for loot or stay stuck with shitty gear and kits for a while. how is that a fun gameloop for anyone?

[glossy vigil]

in an hour you can make easult 1 or 2 k

[formal granite]

games not hard you rat in duo lobbys I play high roller, sounds like you are just a lifer and kind of new to the game, my post is the fact that people who unlike you want to play endgame and experience pvp need to farm for days to do so, I understand that doesent matter to you since you are a noob and focused on the number value of your stash but some of us actually enjoy playing the game normally and doing PVP

[glossy vigil]

no need to sweat buddy excuses excuses, it's a hard game not for every casual, making the loot even more plentifull would be dumb and it sounds like you only grind gob caves, try and kill bosses you'll see if you're that good buddy

lmao sure buddy exactly that

[formal granite]

you rat duos quit crying cus youre bad and try high roller tell me how fast you go broke

[glossy vigil]

assuming I don't already 🙂 no worries bud just keep crying evrything is going to go your way

[formal granite]

bro has played 7 hours today and thinks that telling me he rats for 12 hours a day has anything to do with my post asking them to make the game more appealing to casuals. you sir are not casual, you have no life evidentially.

[formal granite]

games have lots of no lifers like you that play them, but I dont think ironamce should gear loot towards the trogladytes with nothing to do all day rather those with jobs and families that only have maybe a few hours each day.

[dry acorn]

Hoping for a diverse leaderboard - A diverse leaderboard looking like measurements for tracking pacifist/helpful behavior. This could create an atmosphere where streamers (typically the most powerful players) and other lobsters might start trying to climb leaderboards where they have to say, dungeon without killing.

Suggestions: Life giver : track potions dropped/ given to non party member players within a dungeon.

Hearth-guide: Track blue portals that you open, that other players use that aren't in your party.

[indigo jungle]

another bard nerf lol class really is dead out of all the rest

[glossy vigil]

sure bud

[indigo jungle]

they really are beating the horse with this one LOL no other class got 3 nerfs in a row with no buffs to something else lol

[glossy vigil]

buthurt much must ad ominem after adom that's so cute

[summer kelp]

suggestion: stop nerfing bard

[granite plinth]

yeah thatd be nice 🧀

[formal granite]

dont be offended you said yourself you rat duos and play 12 hours a day, hardly sounds fun.

[daring trail]

bro its like 10 nerfs every other patch LOL

feelsbad for bard mains

[south topaz]

And they make the worst type of gear matching imaginable.
This game is REALLY heading to the wrong direction

[granite plinth]

theyre trialing it, everything it

[placid summit]

entering normals dungeons with only blues is AN L for sure.

[lone crescent]

Starting gear vs blue is winnable btw

[granite plinth]

*is a trial and data collection. Learn to read patch notes and interpret what they mean before reeeee

[cyan geode]

For testing purposes, you can now only enter ‘Normal' Dungeons with Rare grade items or lower. Higher grade items found in the dungeon can be used during that session.
**Stupidest thing you have done yet, and youve done alot of stupid things so far

[daring trail]

Still depends on the rolls. I think IM kinda missed the point with this change, but we will see what affects it has.

Its really not much different than purples assuming it rolls good stats lol

[south topaz]

This is something you shouldn't even consider.

[lone crescent]

Well just today i almost killed a full PDR Fighter with starting gear (he was left with like 20hp) and he had purple plate and weapon

[vague shell]

day 20 of waiting for cleric nerf

[granite plinth]

meta best in slot sweat squads will kill the game faster than fair matchmaking

[cyan geode]

@vague shell lawwwwl

[lone crescent]

Chill, it's for testing, they can do tf they want in the current state of the game

[daring trail]

Honeslty you can say purple all day, unless the stats are relevant, its 10 more armor than white quality

[vague shell]

I hope you agree

[cyan geode]

@vague shelli doo

these devs are becoming more and more like nikita from eft everyday. try to fix too much and they ruin the gameplay.

[indigo jungle]

it would be different if bards items gave them buffs because they had them, but they dont, so you got a 1.8% max health flute? u only get that with the flute out and also it is basically useless. Now if their items had specific stats that they can only drop that would make things a bit better but all the gear right now is bad. The bard chest gives no armor or magic resist, neither do the pants or the helmet because their buffs were supposed to compensate for that. Not anymore! So now its a walking squishy poo with basically no buffs because its also limited and they all have been nerfed to crap so why would anyone want to play that class? You cant even do cheese builds anymore with throwing drums. Oh and then u compare it to the other support cleric who can give all their teammates protection, buff all their stats, heal them to full off of 1 ability one time, resurect, and even go into melee themselves and not get 2 shot half the time they will beat the crap out of u with normal gear its so crazy.

[summer kelp]

just a reminder that the gear cap is an indirect rogue buff lol

[daring trail]

LOL

[cyan geode]

@summer kelpyea and its stupid

[vernal ether]

HOW TO FIX LOBBIES:

implement the character-building Training system so that you build your character as you level instead of just getting a perk every 5 levels
minimum level to equip on green+ gear based on its stats
level-based matchmaking for all lobbies based on average party level
purple and better drops restricted to high roller

you're welcome

also bring back the three-tier ruins -> crypts -> inferno system please and thank you

[cyan geode]

gear based matchmaking is a horrible idea

[vernal ether]

it's level-based matchmaking with level-restricted gear akshually thanks

[daring trail]

level-based matchmaking already happened and failed.

[indigo jungle]

yea they took level based out

[granite plinth]

level based doesnt work because you just make characteer, level to 15 in day, transfer to main, repeat

[cyan geode]

@vernal ether you new?

[indigo jungle]

everyone just made brand new characters and played that

[vernal ether]

been playing since pt3

doesn't matter if you make a brand new character if you can't equip rare gear on that character

[lone crescent]

Well i landed like 8 hits and he landed 3 to kill me

[granite plinth]

matchmaking absolutely is the answer though. people dont want to get good at a game filled with meta no lifers that exist on youtube tutorials.

need to seperate the people here for fun and enjoyment, from the people seeking deeper purpose in life from pixels

[small furnace]

Man I hope this gear change doesn't stick. I won't wanna be around long term if this is the direction the game goes into.

Also the leaderboard changes are... terrible? They just promote people grinding even more. That's awful.

[indigo jungle]

I literally stopped playing the game cuz of all the bard nerfs, after the first time it was okay then 3 patches in a row more nerfs like I dont think I am ever coming back that was the only class that was fun LOL and I have been playing since the open beta back in like 2021 2022? Lol

[daring trail]

Right lol, they said " temporary leaderboard system that we believe is less grindy than previous versions"
But then made it more grindy? and they made it to where you cant grind hard, then take a day break becasue that will negatively affect you.

It seems more grindy on paper now. I guess we will see

[granite plinth]

bard and warlock are whats disturbed the game imo.

the early playtest balance was super fun

[vernal ether]

the "level-based matchmaking" was literally just separate lobbies for 15+. I'm talking about matching people based on average party level, with level restrictions on gear based on how good it is. that way low level lobbies can find better gear but new characters will always be wearing gray/white because they can't equip it. it's not gear-based matchmaking because it does not take into account the gear you are actually wearing. read, comprehend, post thank you

[indigo jungle]

I think warlock was fine I never saw an issue with it but the early playtest was really fun yeah 😂 😁

[daring trail]

so level 1s couldnt even equip greens? LOL

[vernal ether]

correct

[small furnace]

I hate the leaderboard system, I hate that it promotes sweats to run through HR killing everyone and ignoring loot. The only thing they did was make it even more grindier so people have to do it more often.

They've limited purples to HR while ensuring HR is even less approachable now. Very fuun.

[granite plinth]

dude like theyve added way too much shit to the cook pot. the playtests slapped hard, and i say fuck all this noise. return to monke

[daring trail]

well they did say any purple you loot inside of a normal dungeon, you can equip for that raid. So i assume you can still get purples out of normal, maybe just more rare.

Yea if they continue to have a raw kill leaderboard, the whole not looting and just hunting people down will continue to exist.

People take more pride on a kill leaderboard than an 'adventurer' leaderboard where they get points for pve

[south topaz]

They make Bard unfun and Meta Slave in the Patch 15
Then when you start to have fun with Sworddancer Bard, they hit you again in this patch

[indigo jungle]

It did never feel like people were just running around with legendary gear all the time on playtest and fights felt more paced and fun but i mean they got to make updates to the game to keep it goin so idk how they would return to monke LOL.

[vernal ether]

this isn't a new concept, games like Diablo have level restrictions on gear. it's a very common RPG mechanic and would ensure that everyone has fair lobbies and the primary disparity is player skill, while people who grind the game can still go to 20 and wear all purples and yellows and fight other people in purples and yellows

[indigo jungle]

plus they getting ready to add druid in too so thats gonna shake up the game as well

[south topaz]

BRING BACK PATCH #14

[indigo jungle]

Yea but they arent doing level based matchmaking anymore so what is the point of those gear restrictions?

[granite plinth]

with the same balance, as you said juiced gear was RARE. Like you maybe had a sick sword ? and green armour.

there was not 3 x 3 man groups, of all purple rings and shit, flying around at 100mph bullying people.

its not fun like it used to be.

and to return to monke its easy

1. banana
2. throw all plans on floor
3. hit that fucking reset and send us back to the settings of the early playtests

[south topaz]

Patch #14 without the level gate please

[vernal ether]

read comprehend post please thank you. they never did level-based matchmaking. Dark and Darker has never had a matchmaking system. what they did was a separate lobby pool for level 15+ players. the point of the gear restrictions is

• to bring back the early playtest experience of lobbies mostly full of undergeared players having actual fair fights
• to create a better new player experience instead of the current noobstomping atmosphere in crypts
• to integrate the level up system with actual progression of power for your character
• to limit the use of juiced gear to lobbies of people who have played enough to afford juiced gear

[sweet nebula]

Has anyone discussed how completely useless leather bags are? whats the point of making them so expensive to craft? you would think they would be something easy to craft and the hard part would be filling it up with 500g

[vernal ether]

the point is that they dont want people to hoard 100000 gold in their stashes

[summer kelp]

wdym i just spent 8.5k on it seems reasonable

[small furnace]

I mean, gold ingots exist and they store WAY more value than the leather bags that cost an insane amount to craft. If they don't want people storing value in their stash then they'll have to attack that. Those bags are absolutely useless.

[sweet nebula]

I thought they were put in to tackle the issue of only being able to trade 1250g in one trade

[small furnace]

Lot of good that did. Seeing as the value of a leather bag is 10000 gold lmao. Nobody would ever use it to trade.

[unborn mulch]

Can you remove/lower the trading fee if your making the gold more scarce? it just seems like an annoyance, not even a gold sink it just makes people not sell cheap items which forces you to get worse ones at the shops, I think it would be alot better if you could find people selling slightly better then shop items but worse then getting a lot fo gold for it and then you dont have to sell something for 35g for a 50g item, gives both players more gold and enjoyment as currently there's not enough means to trade it. Also its not going to be adding more gold to the game if anything it will be a gold sink because people wont be vendoring their trash, they will exchange it with anotehr player taking their gold - Thoughts?

[daring trail]

tbh if they just swapped troll pelt with bowstring or something, theyd be totally worth

[vernal ether]

idk but they have previously intimated that they only had the coinpurses because they didn't really want you to be able to compress your massive wealth into a couple of squares as it would force you to spend it
gold ingots are not directly usable for purchasing stuff, you have to laboriously convert them to coins

[indigo jungle]

bro ppl play this game off cd and it has been out for a while, the wipes dont reset your levels. They will reach those levels in a second. Although this does stop friends and groups from making a new character and then just dropping their gear once they get into the dungeon.

[small furnace]

Agreed, but they didn't do that. They didn't even try to address it this patch.

[indigo jungle]

Which is good but then like it also hurts those new players who get lucky and kill a high geared person

[vernal ether]

you can always make a new character if you want to play low level lobbies. since the only thing you'll be able to bring with you is your skill I don't see a huge issue with it in this theoretical solution

[small furnace]

Laboriously? My man has clearly never seen how fast gold ingots sell at market price. That is ANYTHING BUT laborious.

[indigo jungle]

there is no system you just said that so then there is no low level lobbies they are all the same

[daring trail]

what people were doing when IM has level-based matchmaking, was making new characters to farm for free essentially. they hit 15, trade to main, reset.

Just very bad gameplay design

[vernal ether]

please read and comprehend my original post before replying

[vernal ether]

I think pretty much everyone here agrees this isn't Tarkov and you can't hunt sweaty geared people with a Makarov, they really just crush anyone in their path. someone just gave an example of a fighter missing 7 attacks in a row while they bopped them on the head with a halberd 5 times and died anyway b/c gear and buffs. how do you "get lucky" against that in grays

[small furnace]

Fighters and barbs you won't be killing above your weight very often, no. Cause they are often tanks.

Other classes can be killed if they are geared though. Just gotta get them to miss their DPS then your example of 'halberd 5 times' would mean a kill.

[indigo jungle]

well usually you third party especially in solos, then on top of that people cant carry everything so they sometimes just dont have the room.

[vernal ether]

like I mentioned you would still be able to loot rare gear out of chests in the dungeon, just not wear it. so low levels can still fight over good gear

[small furnace]

God no, you wanna push this even further? I hope the data they get from this causes them to roll it back.

[indigo jungle]

classes have range, other classes have abilites it is definitely possible and I'M SURE people have done it, you get used to hiding spots and premtively attack there and catch people by surprise it happens.

[mild hill]

[vernal ether]

lol sure buddy plink at the capelords with your gray ranger, you will definitely get all their loot

[indigo jungle]

💀

[small furnace]

HR is entirely unplayable now because the leaderboard sweats have come back in full force. I do not wanna play with the people that just hunt people down methodically because they're grinding an arbitrary number.

I still however want to have opportunities to play with, and against geared people... just not in the environment where leaderboard sweats exist.

[vernal ether]

a solution needs to be found for the gear problem in normal dungeons or this game has no future. I think mine is perfectly serviceable
they said they are separating the leaderboards out into a ranked mode so that will take care of that problem, and you would still be able to wear all gear and fight other people wearing gear at level 20

[indigo jungle]

the best way to solve all of this besides the bard nerfs is to add a training map where you can test damage

[vernal ether]

they could also roll back to the early playtest balance and make rare gear actually incredibly rare again, but based on the playerbase response I don't think that would be well-received

[small furnace]

They haven't really said that actually. They said that 'a proper ranked mode is coming soon' that could just mean converting HR to ranked.

If they do though then I will be 100% fine to play more HR.

I do not think this type of gear based segregation is good for the game though. I absolutely adore those 'zero to hero' moments, and as I said last night I REALLY enjoying playing as a 'robin hood' geared player, where I kill all the other geared players in the lobby and give their gear to the naked players.

[daring trail]

I think alot of people mistake the playtests lol
loot was not as good, but there was only a handful of people who went and farmed HR bosses lol.
You didnt see crazy gear, because people couldnbt even survive hell runs.

Youd run into a guy in a purple kit who didnt know who to use his sword and shield effectively..

There is no going 'back to the playtests' because people actually know how to play the game.

[indigo jungle]

nope ppl like their gear now and I dont blame them having it is the only time the game feels fun and when you get it then lose it going back to grays feels like ass

[vernal ether]

I don't think they will convert HR to ranked. the original point of HR (besides the chance to be on the leaderboards) was a more difficult environment that rewarded better loot

[indigo jungle]

which imo is usually never all that worth it

[vernal ether]

to be fair a lot of that was also because the game was free and there were many more players. obviously we are not ever going to go back to the game being free so the supply of idiot newbies is fairly limited. but you do need to have a fair, survivable environment for new players or they will bounce right off this game and it will wither and die. and this ain't it lmao

I originally was in favor of separate lobbies for people who had yet to successfully escape through a portal, but I think level-based matchmaking and level-restricted gear would be better in light of the purple epidemic

[daring trail]

I tihnk we agree on what the problem is, but I dont see your suggestion going over well at all. It sounds super aids tbh

[hazy tulip]

They could make a pve mode with limited loot. Idk like a campaign map or smthing. Just an idea

[rich badger]

We need high roller ruins now

[vernal ether]

that is basically what the point of goblin caves was. but I think they set out to make this game as PvPvE so they are probably not gonna add a campaign and I don't think it would be well-received anyway

fighting people in the playtests was fun as hell, even in grays. crypts is not remotely fun at all rn unless you avoid everyone like the plague and duck into inferno at the first opportunity

[daring trail]

Multiple reasons for that though, one is crypts was the only map. You had solos and duos in there. It was possible to have fun going in solo on crypts back in PT days.
Also, like i said earlier, everyone overall sucked at the game. PT's were super fun, but all games are super fun when everyone equally sucks.

[vernal ether]

you still have solos and duos in crypts. and yeah the low skill ceiling made things more fun, but I think what is holding the game back currently even though people know how to play (there are still some truly stupid people out there in juiced gear) is just the gear disparity

killed a solo wizard as a gray ranger on wednesday

he just kept peeking me to throw fireballs that missed and I kept shooting him in the face until he died lol

[daring trail]

I didnt say they dont exist in crypts, but youre on something if you think the same amount of solo/duos are going into crypts when gc/ruins exists.

the gear disparity is really the only big issue, but that can easily be adjusted just by fixing random modifiers.

Instead of +3 weapon damage on ARMOR, maybe lower it to +2 as a start. same with all damage stats that are on armor, just lower them. That alone would make the gear disparity not nearly as bad

[vernal ether]

you said "you had solos and duos in there" which... you still do. obviously they're not as numerous
I don't think the solution is to make gear worthless. I think the solution is to either limit it so that you have a gradient of gear in lobbies as you progress a character, or to make gear super rare again so that hardly anyone has it.
any solution to the problem is gonna piss off a lot of people because gamers are really fucking stupid. that's why you are selective about the feedback you listen to as a game designer lol

I do agree though that gear should have appropriate bonuses on it instead of completely random and frequently useless shit

[daring trail]

I dont think anyone mentioned making gear worthless, where did you get that?

[quasi stirrup]

I still think a player Kill death ratio is a better matchmaking metric than jsut limiting the gearr

[small furnace]

He presumed you suggesting lowering certain attributes was equivalent to making them worthless. For some reason.

[small furnace]

Please god no stop making these awful suggestions. Even less than GBMM the last thing I want is SBMM.

[vernal ether]

you are talking about nerfing gear stats. I think the last few weeks of balance changes have shown you can keep nerfing them and it won't have any effect, until they are not worth using anymore, and then people will stop using them cos they are worthless

[daring trail]

There hasnt been adequate testing with lower random modifiers, not sure where you are pulling this information from lol

[vernal ether]

did you miss all the fucking around with all attributes modifiers? lol

[daring trail]

You mean the change they kept in for 16 hours? Thats not adequate testing bud

[quasi stirrup]

if a player vs player kd is the matchmaking for most of the competitive FPS game out ther why re ivent the wheel

[vernal ether]

there's been at least 3 changes to them since the game released in early access

[glossy vigil]

Please I beg IronMace, could we have a "hub" like area like a persistent tavern with a zone with different types of training dummies, even solo or team only or something, having to go ingame and risk your gear to try anything is a bit limiting imo

[daring trail]

The only one that hasnt been reverted is the +all attribute mod. Everything else is the same if not worse actually

[ember moon]

I still see a small issue with blues being just as good if not better than purples with the stats they can have but I am happy with the separation in lobbies in general. W change

[vernal ether]

hot take: Dark and Darker shouldn't be a "competitive" FPS game. it's a dungeon crawling game where you fight other adventurers. the game is at its best when it is casual

[small furnace]

Go play those FPS if you want that type of SBMM.

I don't want this game to be another cookie cutter FPS that caters to the needs of every single individual in terms of matchmaking again to try and force you to a 50% win/loss ratio.

"Why reinvent the wheel" Cause this is so much more fun than any of those competitive FPS games are.

[quasi stirrup]

great remove the pvp then take out the trade market and let people crawl

[vernal ether]

im actually in favor of taking out the trade market but it would never fly lol

[glossy vigil]

true "fairness" and "balance" should never be prioritised over fun imo

[small furnace]

Go find another game to play. Sounds like you hate too many aspects of this game.

[vernal ether]

the market ruined Tarkov, so many of its problems stemmed from that feature

[glossy vigil]

please let us have a training room I need to theory craft

[vernal ether]

and here it just serves to make it easy to assemble +damage on every slot builds, which is clearly not making the game more fun

[daring trail]

Its a needed addition for tarkov though, same thing with DaD.

It comes with issues, but is needed

DaD needs an auction house system, this trade chat shit is sad at best.

[vernal ether]

it is not a needed addition at all. you could have plenty of fun with stuff you got out of raid only
it's a horrible addition and that's why battlestate spent so much time destroying the game to try and work around it. "found in raid" quest items lmao

[glossy vigil]

which could then have a ingame representation of our stash it could be customised decorated and shit

[quasi stirrup]

love the game jsut don't have the time to keep getting rolled by agressive palyers who don't even want what im carrying

[glossy vigil]

imagine being able to put armor shafts full of your best gear sets in your hq

[small furnace]

Wdym. I love standing still looking at a chat waiting for half an hour for the gear I'm looking for to pop up only to have it sniped by some dude with a script before I can even look at it.

And it's just my favorite pastime to be spamming a message every 10 seconds until someone comes along and trades me for my incredibly underpriced item.

@quasi stirrup You just said remove the pvp. There are SO many dungeon crawlers that exist and are pve. Go find them if that's what you want.

[vernal ether]

im not confident at all that Ironmace knows what it is doing addressing the gear problem especially after that fucking vendor fiasco, they seem to think that the solution to "geared players are ruining the lobbies" is "I guess everyone should have access to the best gear at all times"
but at least this patch suggests they are aware it is a problem at all
@small furnace you are joking if you think an auction house would be better for sniping than a trade chat lol. the current system is way less script prone than, say, Tarkov's, which is horribly abused by bots

[daring trail]

Its absolutely needed, markets inside of games keeps population.
There would be no reason to loot anything if there was no market. if you were a fighter, youd pick up fighter gear and nothing else. No reason for sellables or anything, because merchants have shit gear.
In tarkov, its the best way to make money early game. Looted a sugar? guess what, you have no use for it, but can sell it to someone at a much later stage than you and make $$

Markets are great in these sorts of games.
The only thing that ruins the market is r m t but there are other solutions for that, not just removing it.

[quasi stirrup]

none that i have playied have much challenge to them or are fps. I don't want soles games.

[small furnace]

At least in an auction house I wouldn't have to waste all my time with this crap. It's so terrible.

[hazy tulip]

Nobody has a real solution, so theem testing different things rn in the right approach right?

[short heath]

The devs have brains @small furnace @abstract swallow

[small furnace]

I am certainly hoping they go back on this, but if not I'm prepared to check out the other clones of this game thankfully there are options.

[formal wadi]

This is why it is called Early Access, not Full Game

[vernal ether]

the reason to loot stuff is to sell it or give it to your party members. it's FINE for loot you don't want to spawn and for you to leave it there because it has no value to you. you do this with 90% of gear right now anyway because its stats aren't worth crap and it takes up too much space.
there is no way to implement a market without instantly flooding your game with R M T and bots and cheaters (who now have a financial incentive to cheat because it's easy for them to sell the gear they get for doing it and then sell the money for real currency) and trivializing your game's mechanics and sidelining the actual playing of your game. there is no solution to this, Tarkov proved that, nothing they tried worked, it just made the game less fun for normal players.
sure, you get a dopamine rush when you sell a really sweet item you can't use for 500g, but I'd much rather have a game that's actually fun and playable than a trade market

[daring trail]

We'll see. Im indifferent about the rare cut off in normals as of right now. Once i can test some tonight ill have more of an opinion. I worry it doesnt change too much, because you can still build up a VERY good set in just blues.

[formal granite]

game is slowly dying every day and the main complaint is "I dont want to farm for hours to use one good kit" why cant we have buffed loot, yes maybe sweaty streamers who play 12 hours a day are rich, but what about the other 99% of the playerbase? why is ironmace listening to 1% of its community I will never understand.

[vernal ether]

it's a moot point because ironmace clearly wants a market so no amount of arguing will have any effect on the actual game. but it would be better off without one

[short heath]

It isn't what I suggested, but it's a step in the right direction for new player/casual player retention. They wouldn't have done it if it wasn't a bad enough problem, and I've been saying (along with many others) that is was a huge problem.

[vernal ether]

also pinging this again

[oak orbit]

If they are going to put in gear restrictions in normal dungeons that is fine. But I only have 1 friend who I play with and we play ruins. So if they could add a High Roller Ruins map so I can use my actual gear that would be awesome

[vernal ether]

you could duo in HR crypts :D

[cyan geode]

high roller sucks

[short heath]

They need to put the 3 tier map set up back so that they can properly implement a lot of these changes they're testing/looking into trying out.

[cyan geode]

high roller= pay to get in and barely make entrance fee back, run into all legendary no lifers who live on their pocs..

[small furnace]

This change is moot rn because people aren't gonna go to HR still. Leaderboards just got made worse and nobody wants to play only to get farmed by JayGriff and all the other 14-hour a day career sweats.

[vernal ether]

hard agree, I miss the 3 tier map setup so bad. it was so promising and they yanked it out from under me because everybody cried WAHHH TOO HARD I CAN'T ESCAPE ANYMORE

drinking the tears of people who complain the AI enemies are too difficult

[rotund violet]

**Are you tired of EMPTY coin purses in your stash? **
💸 After buying potions, bandages, trading etc there are so many empty coin purses left in the stash 💸

👇 The solution, make them sellable to the Treasurer again for 1-3 gold coins! Vote 👇

📢 https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/494870/make-empty-coin-purses-sellable 📢

[short heath]

These devs are testing things in a completely backwards way.

[cyan geode]

they should take suggestions from greed is good...

[short heath]

Half of the changes they're talking about making will likely have to be changed again as soon as they get back to the 3 tier map.

[vernal ether]

they're trying to balance testing things with keeping their preemie playerbase from raging too hard

[daring trail]

seeing as how they literally went to a DaD suggestions thread and implemented them into their game....

[abstract swallow]

wait did they really put a gear cutoff below loot that drops inside the same dungeon lmao

[cyan geode]

game still in playtest in a better place than this game

[daring trail]

they've got a lot to work on, but they're a prospect

[south topaz]

Blue max for Normal
You can only find up to purple, and they are really rare.

[short heath]

They also reduced drop rates, so it's hard to tell what it will actually be like.

[sonic sand]

It's just a band-aid fix that they'll likely rip off at some point in the near future anyway, just like the 1-15 /15+ level split.
I'm starting to doubt there'll ever be a real system implemented for balanced matchmaking.
Chat is hilarious though; "not fair I have to go HR and fight people of the same gear that are better than me, noobs and brokies should just get good so they can kill me with green gear xD"

[short heath]

True. The fact that people's panties are in a bunch tells you a lot about those people.

[small furnace]

I am fine playing against people that have better gear. I just don't wanna play against leaderboard farmers. I wanna play against other people that are there for the purpose of progressing.

[abstract swallow]

I don't understand why they'd do this while still having insanely boosted loot rates, but that's what testing is for
it's gonna do a whopping nothing for people complaining about 'gear diff' though

[cyan geode]

the changes to this format"ie the market they use and the mana pool for magic players that greed is good has would actually make this game much better

[short heath]

They reduced drop rates.

[small furnace]

Realistically this change just means I'm gonna itemize blues better and not use purples though. Which isn't really a big downgrade since you can still get 2 good stats on blues.

[abstract swallow]

drop rates have been boosted like 9 times since the start of early access
whatever they've rolled it back to is still way, way too much

[short heath]

It's ironic that you don't understand that you have the exact same issue that new players/casuals have.

[sonic sand]

[small furnace]

No, because this isn't a 'skill' or 'gear' gap to me. It's a I don't wanna play against someone that can literally play this game 14 hours a day and does so to mindlessly grind me.

[still matrix]

with this new gear limit hr prices should be decreased due to the fact that if anyone who wants to wear their best gear has to pay quite a decent fee just to play with it

[vernal ether]

1000%

[cyan geode]

agree totally

[short heath]

Hmm. It's almost like that's the exact same issue.

[cyan geode]

but we all need to be happy that they actually work on the game and kind of listen to the community.

[small furnace]

No, because I'm still gonna play the game. I'm just gonna play around it Mr. Smug Nuclear.

If they're going to quit over that then it's on them. I'm just not touching HR until they fix leaderboards.

[vernal ether]

the casuals sure feel mindlessly grinded by the capelords infesting crypts
didn't I just mention how I was playing around them by not taking team fights in crypts? lol. Nuclear is reading you like a book Kira

[cyan geode]

they need to have solo map that is for people who like to play solo with full gear against other solos..

[small furnace]

I don't care about the mindlessly grinded thing holy crap you're reading way wrong into this. I DO NOT WANT to play against someone that plays this game 14 hours a day on repeat every single day consistently. That is what HR turns into when leaderboards are like this.

It has nothing to do with skill or gear it's just these people have WAY too much time to play the game and I will never be able to keep up with someone like that.

[short heath]

HR GC is a thing

[cyan geode]

hr is shit

[short heath]

Irony. Sheer irony.

[vernal ether]

yeah I literally don't know what to say to the lack of self-awareness