suggestion-discussion

[rocky warren]

dnd-fan-art should be dad-fan-art. thoughts?

[pallid sleet]

Hell yeah Barony rules

[covert stag]

Btw for the rogue double jump, should honestly just add a crow that pecks players who get too high up. Or you know, just bring literally ANY FORM OF RANGED WEAPON

[gloomy cradle]

Think I made that suggestion awhile ago and it didn't do well

[compact barn]

I think a lot of people shit on the staff specific spells cuz of cleric being able to use it as well? Make magical staff and wizard only item and give it set non recoverable set spells and make the left click a projectile cantrip. Would give it a useful function while the other casting options still have their niches as well. Just like to see them do anything to the magic staff since right now it’s a throw away item at all levels of rarity

[gloomy cradle]

My idea was for the spell casting items to have their own slots, so you could pick what spells went into them.

Really IM just needs to give the staff some sort built in bonus at tiers above Brown.
#d-and-d-suggestions message

[potent jay]

Staff is easy to fix just x2 speed the staff casting animation
Arent people really overthinking this
I guess that fix is too boring and people want more tactics
Or give the staff 200 Magic Resist instead

[tawny python]

👎

[robust bison]

Idk if it's real stats or just feeling but i feel that the spellbook legit have a hiden cast speed boost

So if it's real, ppl would always optimise their cast speed by taking that book, + it adds magical dmg so it's even more broken

[obtuse lichen]

Book shouldn't give damage stick should

[atomic cipher]

Stick is just so horrendously bad, that it would take a total rework for it to be even useable. Slower cast animation, more likely to bonk a wall and ruin your cast completely etc etc.

[robust bison]

Stick shouldn't, even if the atk dmg and speed and patern are trash, it still have auto attacks

Personnally, i'm almost sure that thz stick as been designed to be thrown away asap

[timber pebble]

why did suggestions get disabled

[spare flax]

@timber pebble probably because they don't need anymore suggestion :x

[timber pebble]

anyone got something concrete aside from people choking out theories

[spare flax]

No

[real trellis]

The bot died.

[vestal relic]

When dual wielding, you can change the weapon's attack between your left and right hand, does this make the weapon attacks faster, like a small percentage increase of speed between hits? Or is that just a feeling I got while using them. (I was playing rogue)

If there isn't, it'd be cool if they implement a combo system where you can hit faster between them if you time it perfectly to where the animation ends, gaing like a 5-10% increase or something when you go Left, right, left , right or whatever.

[warm spoke]

there is attack combos that give different attack patterns

[vestal relic]

Do you just mean the regular 3 hit combo, or what do you mean?

I am talking specifically about dual wield combos, using left and right click to decrease time between attacks

[tulip venture]

yeah im not sure and i dont think theres a definitive answer out there but you can also hold both at the same time and it does a combo too

[foggy rampart]

when the rondel dagger 3 hit combo ends you can use the castillion immediately after to reduce down time between attacks

[vestal relic]

You can?! I never tried it

[tulip venture]

yeah and it feels faster not sure if it actually is

[tulip venture]

and honestly i think the movespeed penalty from the second weapon isnt worth it anyway

[vestal relic]

That highly depends on playstyle and stats on said weapon

[patent mauve]

Staff should have a faster moving while casting speed. It currently has the slowest casting speed, and while casting movement penalty. -35% they should make it -25%

[warm spoke]

rapier and short sword have a good combo attack pattern

[fierce relic]

arming and short sword combo attack with adrenaline rush is so fast its hard to aim. crazy dps with slayer

i mean aim for head but too fast to do anything with movement. just W

[lucid root]

Buff wizard

[glacial walrus]

Ive recently been thinking this too. Staff sucks so much, maybe it was designed to keep magic much easier to fight early in the gearing process

[robust bison]

100% it's why it has been made

to nerf caster in early game

[ancient briar]

I think the caster has received enough of nerfs 🙂 and making the staff a little more less irritating wouldn't do such a big deal like a double jump and increased mov speed of a rouge does.

[robust bison]

i mean

i think that the caster have been intentionnaly made bad in early game (low dmg overall without stat boost and slow cast/anim speed) more than the others

[fierce relic]

is it worth to camp spider pot for lvling ?

[rare tusk]

spiders dont give XP, the pot does though

[fierce relic]

good

[dusky field]

Can we get an executioner to chop this man's hands?

[ebon valve]

Yes I that’s it! And we all lived happy ever after! In darkness!!!

[rancid pebble]

You can do an “animation cancel” in a way. A good example is on rogue when you do say two rapier attacks you can then do an offhand stilleto attakc which comes out faster than the third rapier. This is good if you are geared and know it will kill

[lucid root]

Its just me in here, my own private channel

Finally i can talk about wizard buffs

[dusky field]

I'm not sure if wizard buffs but I would support that we spoke about barbarian nerfs in our channel

[fierce relic]

delete rogue and we can talk

[lucid root]

lol

[dusky field]

Also agree

[graceful frost]

Weird. Why did my suggestions upvotes get wiped

[abstract swallow]

bot died

[graceful frost]

Rip

[brittle jasper]

I think wizards should become stronger -5 will +5 strength on the base stats

[lucid root]

you son of a b***

[ebon valve]

I want to talk more about maps! What about a much much larger map?

[abstract swallow]

🤝

[rugged eagle]

I just want new maps big or small I crave new content

Bigger is better but goblin caves is fun and that's a pretty small lobby and map so small can work

[granite plinth]

The line.... it tried to escape! hold it tighter

[patent mauve]

Yes gimmie more maps plox

[lucid root]

realistic earth sized maps are coming, been confirmed don't bother looking into it

[woeful elm]

I wont, but how many players per earth sized map?

[lucid root]

8 billion give or take

[woeful elm]

oof, that's a lot of players, how long does a game go for?

[tawny python]

1 hand weapon are already to fast .

[rancid pebble]

Id be down, the 'big' map we got was actually really small because of the grid nature, and double jump. Also im hoping we get 3 levels of the Crypt now that it has been decoupled from the forgotten castle or whatever the new overworld map is called

[ebon valve]

So what about a goblin cave like map but for full party’s? Maybe with new bosses !

[abstract swallow]

in terms of actual playspace, the new map was actually smaller than goblin caves
but agreed, 3F dungeon really is a must now

[tawny python]

that would make the rich player more rich tho .

[mighty fractal]

skill issue

[abstract swallow]

a 3F dungeon would make some rich players richer, but it's going to lead to a wider overall spectrum of economic status

[tawny python]

then they need to add more player like map with 38 player

[outer niche]

Doubt that would make a big impact, the ppl tryna go for kills are still gonna be there and the 3rd floor would still be completely dead. 3 levels defo ain’t needed we saw that from the start of this playtest

[outer niche]

completely pointless imo the first two levels work really well rn, a third is just gonna be overkill

[lone crescent]

They don't plane on adding more then 18 players

Matches with 3 floors are slow, long and boring

[dusky kernel]

So right now, only the players that load into floor 1 can show up in floor 2 if they make it?
Haven’t actually played and looking for clarification 🤔

[main pagoda]

How does one submit a suggestion. Bc I've just been considering that the lack of players on floors 2 and 3 could be easily fixed by having people who take down portals from multiple servers be combined into a secondary lobby, until there is enough for a standard game on the next floor

[lone crescent]

They added a first floor, Ruins, at sorm point during the game some stairs opens and you can go down but by that point half the lobby if not more is already dead

[lone crescent]

I don't think requeue is an option, it ruins the multilayered dungeon.
It will be the same to have straight queue to floor 2

Also suggestion bot got removed

[main pagoda]

I don't think it would ruin it at all. Perhaps the dungeon has multiple entrances. It wouldn't be like queueing direct because you would still have to beat the first layer

[abstract swallow]

Again, literally a skill issue, and even if it were the case in launch the F1 of a full map set would be larger in size and population than 18

[lone crescent]

They said no more then 18 bruh

[main pagoda]

And yeah, skill issue. The purpose of the deeper dungeons I for more skilled explorers to dive deeper and darker

[lone crescent]

You always say "skill issue" for no reason

[main pagoda]

Not just anyone can get into hell and expect to come back alive

[acoustic talon]

A solution is to simply make the first layer much larger, with less probability of players encountering each other as they battle PVE. Then have zero out portals, forcing everyone to move to the second layer if they want the chance to escape with their loot. Add multiple entrances to layer 1 leading to layer 2.

[lone crescent]

That's not even the point, floor 2 is meant for 18 players, if only 9 go down then the map feels empty

[abstract swallow]

You got a source for that, my dude?
And I say skill issue because dying to PvE and not being able to walk to uncontested free down portals is exactly that.

[main pagoda]

Again, refer to my previous comment about a secondary lobby. The different camps in the Forrest each having a stairway down into the dungeon

[lone crescent]

I'm not even talking about PvE, teams will fight and kill each other, it's almost impossible for a full lobby to reach floor 2

They said in last QnA that they don't plan to make bigger lobbies

[patent mauve]

I think once we have 90 day wipes we'll see a shift in B1 dives, if you look at the gold spent graph at the end of the playtest people were spending mad amounts of money. The reward for going to hell for good gear goes up over time as better gear will take more and more runs to acquire via gold sink.

[acoustic talon]

Nine is generous already. When the test first launched, I barely saw anyone go down at all, except for maybe two or three people.

[lone crescent]

I don't like the idea of waiting to play with other players that were not with you in previous floor

If they make 3 floors first floor should habe bad loot, if the floor have bad loot then for players who are already gear the first half of the game is just a waste of time

Then when they reach the second half, that should be the most fun, most players are already dead

[abstract swallow]

you've pivoted from a vague assurance to a specific claim now, source it
you can literally link directly to the exact discord message

[patent mauve]

I only didnt go to hell because I would have an inventory full of treasure worth at least 150-200, so if the average cost of a good purple weapon or jewelry is like average 600+ I'll consider diving down a lot more. We just need to see the game on a longer time frame for casuals to catch up.

[lone crescent]

#dev-qna-archives message

Here, 10th question

Q: Are you going to expand the single player system now that 32 players will be available as well?

A: As of the current plan, the capacity for admission will not be 32.

[abstract swallow]

Okay, so see that's "The capacity (in PT5) will not be 32" and not "the devs aren't expanding lobbies and will never make larger player counts" you disingenuous one-man-circus

[patent mauve]

Maybe have the 3 floor dungeons only have two parts to delving, either you go F2 or B1 from F1. So the heavily geared players wait to dive down to inferno via portals that spawn on the surface floor and less geared players take the stairs to the crypts.

[lone crescent]

How can they even expand lobbies without making maps bigger? Lol

[lone crescent]

That's the same issue, main floor should be Crypt imho

You can't put 32 player in these maps, it become clusterfook

[abstract swallow]

More verticality and room overlap? Less 'giant empty room'/'giant room with single setpiece'? Real spawns that aren't rushable rooms and seemingly random interior rooms? Better map design and not repeated templates slapped together with almost no intent?

[patent mauve]

I agree the ruins felt like an afterthought, but if they really want a 3 floor dungeon, I don't see a way for people to actually occupy all 3 floors unless we have a way to keep the majority of players alive while the first floors circle is closing. I can see allowing more hardcore players to bide their time and wait for a set of down portals and letting weaker players escape or choose to go to the crypts. I didn't play on the ruins because the crypts were just better even though the ruins had some good loot spawns.

[lone crescent]

I guess even some kind of fee, like 15-20 gold, to skip Ruins could be fair, you go into Ruins just to get dome gear if you have none

[lone crescent]

So they need to remake the maps from 0 just to add more players?
That will never happen, maybe in the future they will do bigger maps with bigger lobbies

[patent mauve]

I was thinking a faster paced ring closing on the ruins map, make it half the time of the normal maps to encourage racing to a down portal or staircase. When the economy finds it's wings, I think more people will be inclined to dive deeper for better rewards.

[compact barn]

I don’t think we’ll see a skip a floor option from the devs. Would rather see them combine lobbies for floor 2 after ruins and then keep the floor 3 inferno to specific lobby on down travel so you’re rewarded for going through two floors rather than punished

[abstract swallow]

they need to remake the maps from scratch period, Crypts is absolutely awful and Ruins-- while it had some nice points --is as bad as the rollback Crypts were

[compact barn]

Ruins felt great, wished the stairs opened earlier so more people could skip the floor and descend and scrum on the better loot floor that crypts was before the revert

Prolly the fact is was a fresh map that I liked ruins so much tho honestly lol

[lone crescent]

If you force players to run to the stairs faster is still a waste of time until you go down and you encourage more pvp near the stairs having the same problem of few players in floor 2

[abstract swallow]

Ruins was a blast, and a clear improvement over the old/rollback version of Crypts, but it had severe problems with LoS, enemy placement, deadzones, and TERRIBLE spawns

[patent mauve]

This, this is why I think either a faster closing circle for the F1 and/or earlier staircases and down portals to spawn on F1. I think a major factor in people's play style is they'd rather wipe the lobby before diving down to give a better chance of escaping. I'd like for the players to split among hardcore and more casual players in the same match without combining lobbies if they dont have to.

[lone crescent]

I like Crypt, i like Ruins too, but LoS is maybe too much OP, i prefer corridors and rooms instead of open maps

[lone crescent]

In fact you have no reason to avoid killing players in floor 1 if you are geared and good enough

[abstract swallow]

having to play the game or interact with other players is not a punishment or 'waste of time'
I've said this before but you may unironically want to try to play a battle royale game like Apex or Fortnite instead, it fits your complete disregard for the concept of endurance adventuring and would help with your fear of player interaction

[lone crescent]

Floor 2 will always be an half empty lobby this way

[patent mauve]

That's why they removed the 3 way escape portals, people were just camping those in playtest 3 and it wasn't healthy, making separate escape portals more common made people choose between guarding them while looking for enough for the whole team to escape or diving down.

[lone crescent]

How Apex and Fortnite are even relevant here? Btw i played both

[ebon valve]

They could allow respawns on floor 1!

[lone crescent]

If you already are geared in Ruins killing players is the only thing to do, every chest or mob loot is almost useless

[patent mauve]

Which is why I proposed a circle closing at double speed on the ruins, putting incentive on diving down sooner and leaving the rats to loot the scraps.

[abstract swallow]

Yes, that's... part of the appeal? Going into the dungeon better-equipped means that you're more readily able to take on fights with other players and delve deeper, going into more dangerous locations for more fittingly profitable loot. That's literally the core gameplay loop, and you're describing it like a problem.

[lone crescent]

It's the same, 2 teams who rushes the stairs together will most likely fight each other before going down

[patent mauve]

You can really only hold like one full kit in your inventory, so you don't need 10+ players diving down realistically, you only need the chance for 3v3 or 3v3v3 in the crypts or inferno dungeons.

[lone crescent]

What I don't find appealing is that geared players don't have any reason to even go in floor 2 unless they want to go to hell and kill the boss, cause most of the fight happens in floor 1

[rugged eagle]

We don't actually know how it will work out because they removed the stairs from ruins before people actually knew they existed

I think it was their biggest mistake because it would've served as great data to see if deep diving would work I personally think it'd be great for the game because I can't imagine a dungeon crawler without going deep into a dungeon

[abstract swallow]

I mean we both agree that more players need to make it downstairs, you've just covered your ears any time that someone mentions there will almost certainly be a larger F1 and that they're pursuing the concept of collapsing lobbies to solve the problem. Just cutting the 3rd floor just makes the problems you're complaining about worse, not better.

[patent mauve]

Yeah everyone was duking it out in base gear lol.

[abstract swallow]

same, the rollback of maps instead of just hotfix disabling Achilles/Locust Swarm/Double Jump out of the game was a huge misstep

[rugged eagle]

There are probably going to be some changes to lobby/diving mechanics because otherwise some planned features would not be possible like the dragon boss that would require multiple parties to clear

That ofc would not be viable if the game did not incentivize dungeon diving and instead everyone extracted/killed eachother on the first floor so we'll have to see

[abstract swallow]

iirc they've literally said that the current player/delve counts aren't enough to support their dream of a cool final boss dragon, so I think you're right

[patent mauve]

I think they can make it so if players choose to go here, teamwork and comradery is the only means to escape, the dragon guards the escape door type deal then players must work together or lose it all.

[lone crescent]

Well i'm just taking as reference devs words and they said larger maps and lobbies are not planned.

[rugged eagle]

A boss guarding an exit sounds cool that's what cave troll should've been

[obtuse lichen]

They should bring back 3man portals and make the lobby bigger overall to balance 3 floors layout

[lone crescent]

Dragon boss could be kinda easy, they can divide the map into 2 separated section to make sure at least 2 teams will reach the next floor to team up for the boss

[obtuse lichen]

I like how we go into inferno floor and then someone dies in 50% of the times because there are no portals or they are inside the boss room

[patent mauve]

Yeah you need someone to take the boss aggro so another player can open the portals

[obtuse lichen]

Idk why final floor doesn't has 3 man portal it really pushes away from going deeper

[patent mauve]

It's to prevent camping, if a three man group can guard a 3-way escape portal and only 4-5 spawn in inferno, it makes it cheesy.

[ebon valve]

So if dragon dies! Does a 3man portal spawn? Or a big golden door for all opens??

[dusky kernel]

So, right before the dragon dies everyone will turn on each other? 🤔🤔

[woven ocean]

Why does cleric get to use Hounskull?

it is a better helmet than the Armet, and removes the advantage that fighter would have in helmets

(better armor being one of the biggest reasons to play fighter)

[olive kettle]

because cleric is underplayed

[rugged eagle]

Yes

[rugged eagle]

Giant golden door is the way leading to his treasure hoard

[floral oasis]

Perhaps towards the end of the wipe ppl will go all out on spending to try the boss? I get on small playtests and start of the wipe ppl not wanting to go deep but towards the end there should be no problem spending

[abstract swallow]

yeah, the number of descents increases as the playtest goes on so in a real wipe I can imagine that the bottom floors would be much more heavily populated as people have both the means and incentive to descend

[patent mauve]

That and gold spent per trade goes up, so players will have incentive to take the risk as time goes on.

[lone crescent]

Multiple doors that can be closed and can't opened only from the inside and no loot from dragon's corpse, people will rush the door and close themselves inside, every door with it's own 3 man blue portal.

I will never trust looting near other players otherwise

Or simply making everyone immortal after the kill

[rigid prawn]

My hope is that there will one day be more floors to go down. Having the game shift from PVP focused on the ruins to PVE focused on lower levels would make a very unique gameplay loop that also has the heart of dungeon crawling in it. Would force people to make a choice on trying to coordinate with another team to take on lower levels with better loot or take them out for less competition. Would potentially make some fun situations like fighting over boss loot and other betrayals etc.

[olive kettle]

prices were going down generally

[patent mauve]

It should say the name of who killed it on the feed, and that's the person who gets first dibs on the loot. Everyone backs to the walls or straight to the giant gold piles. Outt of courtesy they don't go for dragons loot, or it turns into a total brawl for all the loot and ends up deleting gear from the servers which is actually a great thing for an extraction game.

[abstract swallow]

I'd give everyone in the boss room temporary invulnerability (especially if the boss does DoT/has effects that linger after its death) and let people fight over the hoard if they choose-- otherwise just take your personalized boss loot and skedaddle.
Opt-in for more risk and reward, or play it safe and get your team out before the shooting starts. Also promotes a lot of non-combat interaction as players size eachother up, trade, and negotiate.

[robust bison]

the pb is that overall PvE can be easily cheesed or optimised things can be found (like going with a ranger/fighter with a bow for the bosses)

[rigid prawn]

Currently yeah, but whos to say that remains the case in the future? I prefer to look at things through the lens that they are competent devs.

[robust bison]

actually, whatever the game, the AI are predictable when u know the game

[rigid prawn]

To an extent yeah, but the Souls series a good example of that not being the case in every game

[robust bison]

predictable/bad asf

so to compensate they give em heavy dmg, aim bot, wallhack ect it depends in the game

[abstract swallow]

AI should always be predictable and clearly understandable, but there's lots they can do to clean up the AI to make it a more consistent threat
give enemies shoves, let them deal with things that are vertical, give minibosses a soft enrage if they don't land any hits, etc
you can do more than just turn them into statbloated monstrosities, it just takes development resources that they're spending on more important things rn

[robust bison]

even souls like u can learn the paterns/moves, i can give the exemple of "let me solo her" on elden ring

[rigid prawn]

Yes but your talking about the top 1%, you cant balance any game for them

[robust bison]

actually, there's not enough developped AI to get a mashup of several attacks (that can be dodged for sure, not creating undodgable things) or whatever

[robust bison]

yeah but even the guys that are mid can just predict that by seeing an attack

[rigid prawn]

The majority of the playerbase doesnt even go to Hell at all, obviously for most people the AI is tough enough as it is anyway

making a boss for the 5% sounds like a cool way to flesh out the late game, making late game very high risk would be a cool way to add "endless" scaling to the game

good example of what im talking about is Melania from ER, completely optional boss fight that allows the capable to demonstrate their strengths/skills

[robust bison]

f

almost everyone can learn a bosses cuz internet and then train
Personnally me and my friends we dpon't go to hell not cuz we're bad, but cuz we're overloaded of stuff of the crypts (blues thing mostly and nice valuable) or dying from PVP
(finally i cna post this message it got blockled idk why so i needed to rewrite it 5 times 💀)

you an easily find "how to do this boss easily" and u have all the theory, then u just need to practice and maybe try with other things after

[reef spindle]

I wasn't going hell a lot of times because I play with randoms and they either die or escape
also this this I was playing bard mostly

playing with randoms and going to hell together I would say is hard

[robust bison]

playing bard are legit 2 kind of ppl
ppl who want to troll
the game enjoyer who don't care if they win or not
that's what i think personnally

[patent mauve]

I dig it, something along those lines would add so many layers to the community aspect of the game.

[reef spindle]

I think people prefer to do PvP and escape with stolen goods from players

[rigid prawn]

Do you play highroller? Have you fought the bosses? There's a lot of reasons to delve deeper if you got the skill for it. Expanding that means higher gear scaling/ ceiling which also means longer time between wipes. Ai and attack patterns can be changed/added. We are no where near a finished project, basing progression solely on current ai is thinking very short term.

[robust bison]

personnally i prefer to make gold fast, so after i can get back up stuff (just a bunch like 2k G) and then just playing normally with my friend

[robust bison]

never did this play test except once, and PT 4 few times like 4/5 times but we were bad so we diodn't have done it a lot at this time

but at i saw on internet they are easily cheesable and i could train theses cheese easily

[rigid prawn]

Maybe dont focus on late game scaling when you haven't experienced it then lol

[robust bison]

i think after like 2/3h i can almost beat em, on almost all games that are with pve thats what i do and it's not that hard

[abstract swallow]

Since lootrates are so boosted and there's no 3rd floor to spread things out to, PKing and ratting are by far the most 'efficient' ways to play.
I've been a big champion of just ratting HR as a Rogue/Ranger and walking out with people's PvP leftovers with 0 player contact. If I'd played my Ranger more, I'm certain he'd have been top 20 Rangers for loot despite never killing a single boss in PT5.

[rigid prawn]

Beat the the bosses for yourself in EA and then come back to it then. Its one thing to see someone practised do something than replicate yourself

[robust bison]

but overall the only time i died from pve that was like crossbow/bow man when i was not moving and mid/low life for X reason and nightmare mobs when i did placement error

[robust bison]

i did passed 10/20m to the cave troll with the rogue tactics and i almost got the cheese

[rigid prawn]

Rogue in PT5 was not a good class to base PVE difficulty on, Rogue was WAY too strong in PT5

[robust bison]

i legit just needed more practice, like 1h and i could do it as a naked rogue, lvl 1 while i never played rogue since PT4 when i joined

[lone crescent]

Personally I'd like the pve to stay marginal, the main focus should be pvp

[abstract swallow]

The main focus should be both, it's a PvPvE game-- the mingling of player and non-player elements should be almost constant.

[robust bison]

still it was one of the few thing u could do to beat it, along with ranged player with a bow, with or without pavise and going with a zweilhander cuz omega high range

[rigid prawn]

Thats not what the devs are focused on, you may be disappointed unless they 180 on previous statements. PVPVE has always been the intention which means for the most part equal focus on both

[lone crescent]

Yes but pve should be cheeseble and trivial (elite/nightmare enemies and bosses excluded)

[rigid prawn]

Yes but my point is that it was placeholder first draft mechanics that will be changed. A perfect example was the addition of arrows and bolts. Tuned the ranger down from a low risk solo bosser to having limits. This will more then likely happen with the rogue as well

[lone crescent]

That's why i'm convinced they will never add a map with main focus on pve or a pve mode and i like it

[robust bison]

the real thing here for the pve in this game are the aim bot (hey crossbowmans :D) and high dmg to punish the errors cuz they are almost all easily dodgeable

[lone crescent]

Crossbow skellies shoots straight, you just need to sidestep and you become immortal for them

[robust bison]

you can't exclude elite and nightmare cuz it means that u need to exclude also the normal versions, they're all the same just the stats are different, and the bosses you shouldn't cheese em

[rigid prawn]

Predictable but dangerous is the foundation of the souls series and the general gaming community looks at souls as hardcore and punishing. Just cause it easy for you doesn't mean it is fore 95% of the community. Gotta make the game somewhat accessible but you wont see 2 hours a day dad gamers beating Lich until much later into the the game cycle.

[queen lotus]

well.. we also dont have iframes

[abstract swallow]

Crossbow skellies aren't lethal because of their accuracy, they're lethal because of their lack of info-- especially with how broken aggro was after they 'fixed' it in PT5.2
you could pull them before even entering a room, then get prefired looking inside, or get shot through otherwise impossible and completely safe angles

[lone crescent]

I mean you should be able to cheese all normal enemies, of course not bosses

[rigid prawn]

That makes things harder lol

[robust bison]

i agree on the fact that i know but just if u stop move at the moment they shoot for X reason and u got headshot 100% of the time

[abstract swallow]

Honestly? I agree that white/grey quality enemies shouldn't have any anticheese. Let people zero-to-hero F1, that's fine.

[rigid prawn]

I would rather they add path prediction to the enemies so you can manipulate their shots kinda like Skrim archer ai. Makes it more dynamic and promotes skills like serpentine movement to avoid shots etc.

[queen lotus]

I've also been on the receving end of rounding a corner and instantly die because he took aim when the tip of my sword crossed the threshold and let the bolt loose on the same frame as he rendered in on my end

[lone crescent]

Yes the aggro is weird and archers in general can shoot through walls, that's just a general broken mobs mechanics

[lone crescent]

Why you should stop moving before they shoot?

[rigid prawn]

Ide like to see people find cheese for a dragon boss fight, Community will always find a way but the Devs can always fix the more broken cheese

[queen lotus]

Crossbow skele just needs like a 2 seconds delay before they let the first shot fly. or sound cues leading up to the shot being fired.

[abstract swallow]

I'm telling you, man just needs a smug rattle before he shoots and he'll be fine. That and give him a slight dropoff to arc his shots so he's less liable to pixel-peek a wallbang through tiny gaps in collision.

[lone crescent]

I got shot through the door by a goblin archer once, sometime arrows just go through walls

[robust bison]

Sometimes i'm a bot and also i forgot a crossbow man place 💀

[queen lotus]

the rattle rattle would be fine. The only issue I take with crossbow skeles is theres a real, and frankly all too common occurance of getting a new window in your brain before you even realize theres a crossbow skeleton in the room

[rigid prawn]

I only ever had problems with CB skellies when i was forced to move via teamfigth pressures or portal rushs etc. 1 miss on the CB skelly and its free food

[abstract swallow]

oh man, the first version of goblin caves was so, so bad
all that missing collision and the huge arc of the original goblin archers
honestly I'm impressed they fixed it so much (and so fast) that it's unironically the best map in the game now

[lone crescent]

It happened in PT5 lol

[abstract swallow]

not the worst I've seen
I saw a Rogue close a secret door behind himself and then get onetapped by a normal SkeleBones through the invisible gap between the slab and the wall

[patent mauve]

That would be a game changer if mobs had wall collision and their attacks got interrupted.

[abstract swallow]

In PT4 there was some sort of... mitigation factor for enemies swinging through props and walls, the hits would do 0 damage. I think I've got footage of being able to do it reliably with a standing brazier and a sword skeleton.
It wasn't present in PT5, which was abundantly obvious with the new 2H skeletons.

[rigid prawn]

Its hard to say which was better. Not getting hit through walls staves off bullshit deaths that people might expereience. But giving the already dumb AI a chance to hit 0 trivialises it even more. AI improvements are king for fixing problems though

[abstract swallow]

Honestly? Keep the 'clank protection' system and just give enemies one or two more attacks in melee. A thrust and a shove will solve most problems with them being unable to target correctly around objects.

[patent mauve]

I was killed by a mage skelly from a floor below me once, but I'd say I haven't had too much issue with invisible walls besides the single coffin room where the death skulls fall through the floor when they died.

[rigid prawn]

Would like to see pathing improvements that would allow smarter enemies to flank in numbers and work together. Skeletons should still just b-line since they're undead but if Orc and other sentient enemies start being added it would be cool to see. Seen a little bit of this with the "bait" goblin ai where they run away from you and then instantly 180 and attack.

[abstract swallow]

Yeah, once they clean up the basic behavior and awareness of enemies I'd love to see more complex 'brains' for different enemies. Enemies that are dangerous and have unique patterns/behavior would be a huge boon to the 'character' of dungeon floors and encounters.
I honestly hope we get more 'weak' enemies so that the devs can include more enemies in encounters, because they have made some absolute PvE bangers that are leagues above the shitty mob moshpits.

[rigid prawn]

Have high hopes as well. The boss fights are pretty mechanical and fun to do for first pass content. Flushing out the enemy pool will just expand the fun endlessly, variety is the spice of life!

[ebon valve]

Yeah! Orc enemy’s with new “smart” behaviours could be great!

For me right now the best gameplay is the crypt! Only F2!! But I love the fantasy of Floor1 and 3! However! right now just the crypts might just be the best experience ! Maybe even with only blue portals! ( and that’s pains me to say, I do still want to be going down and down) single maps works the best right now IMO

[rigid prawn]

Just gotta work out the kinks! Ide love to see more floors added in the future MUST GO DEEPER!

[lone crescent]

I'd like to have some limit to the mob aggro distance, it feels bad that if you don't close a door mobs will chase you forever

[rugged eagle]

Complex ai would be kinda sick of baiting out the skele swings then going in for a headshot and repeat

[abstract swallow]

I think it's important that not all enemies be super competent-- after all, you're supposed to be outnumbered in a lot of fights.
I used to do Doom mapping, and there's an art to using simple, consistent enemies together in fun and exciting ways.

[rugged eagle]

Mob ai agro range was absolutely broken in the most recent patch especially in goblin caves it drove me insane

[rugged eagle]

I don't expect anything crazy but I think alot of it comes down to mob variety I wouldn't mind simple AI if there were more enemy types atleast

Ruins was a step in the right direction even though wisps were annoying it was definitely a nice change from skeletons and goblins

[abstract swallow]

Wisps were a bizarre choice, I wonder if there's something they were meant to have that didn't make it to the PT version.

[rugged eagle]

I thought wisps were weak to magic? They definitely felt like they were easier to kill on my wizard so I thought they were there so you'd bring a wizard with you

[olive kettle]

cant wait for the enemy which casts locust swarm on me

[feral rock]

With the ongoing court case. I don't see this game coming out very soon.

[rugged eagle]

Was a joke my guy thought the copium made it obvious lol

[summer drift]

I think we should have something to prevent people from dropping all their armor when running away. It kinda looks lame

It should take longer to get rid of it or something along those lines. You can't just rip your pants out and throw them in 2 seconds (I mean technically you can, but that shouldn't be helpful)

[feral nova]

why not?

[summer drift]

Unless you're doing something like this it doesn't make so much sense https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwoF7yA7Ga0

Medieval armor is supposed to be strapped on and includes a lot of padding, right?

[dense sand]

because you can take off clothes and go from a heavy tank to a speedy naked boy

if you take damage you shouldnt be able to remove armor for x amount of time

[feral nova]

Lol yes. I think the risk/reward is appropriate.

[dense sand]

the only time its risky is if you are running from a ranger or a crackshot fighter/barb

[abstract swallow]

I agree with GK here, there should be a reasonably short unequip timer the same way we have equip timers. Too much can be subverted with good menuing right now, it's not great for the game.
Obviously dropping and looting bags would be the most relevant part of this change-- it'd make it much easier to catch out people overencumbered in a more feature-complete version of the game since they can't just bunnyhop their bag away, but instead have to discard items one at a time if they want to keep moving.

[dense sand]

definitely need a no removing armor while in combat debuff

[feral nova]

I have to disagree. I think its entirely fine to be able to quickly strip equipment for a speed boost.

I have the same opportunity to strip if I want to speed up to kill them. Had a lotta players strip only to tomb them up easily cause they had no defense. Just my experience. 🙂

[summer drift]

Do you even run that much faster irl without your pants on? I don't know man. Maybe when weight is implemented properly this won't matter as much

Even heavy armor didn't actually slow you down that much in reality, it just made you get tired faster

[feral nova]

Haha Nah maybe not with my pants off, but defiantly would run faster after takin off some armor.

[summer drift]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

[feral nova]

I think its more of a question about proper weight nerfs not equip/unequip speeds which I think would get annoying to the players

watchin this clip GN lol

yo this vid kinda cool

[summer drift]

I think a stamina system would be more realistic, but wouldn't necessarily fit the theme of the game

[abstract swallow]

A stamina system feels like a good fit in the playtest versions (the combat is very barebones and weapon-based for all but a few classes, and often with a required investment to access those non-weapon aspects), but it clearly doesn't line up with the larger scope of the game.
Everything is built around time-centric resource management in a very small macro scale.

[summer drift]

I agree Badger

[feral nova]

Oh dont get me wron, yall comin from a very insightful direction and I wouolld have to agree, I just dont know that the equip speed is the best angle to approch it from ya know/

[summer drift]

What's up with the stpid message filtering? I can't even talk about heavy armor without the bots deleting my message

[rigid prawn]

Having an interaction similar to opening a door or chest when switching gear out would make it a lot harder to strip and run. Doesn't have to long but if its per piece then stripping completely can be time consuming. Stripping as a mechanic is super corny and just straight up cheese strats. Something should be done to avoid naked meta at all costs.

[abstract swallow]

It doesn't have to be a very long interaction, just a brief one. Could be like half a second for all I care, just enough to get someone to stand still so you can't hotswap or dump off starting armor mid-fight.
Anyone that's tried to get PvP practice in GC has seen people start running and stripping at full speed, easily outpacing anyone with a weapon out.

[summer drift]

Heavy armor = very slow to equip and unequip

Please stop filtering my messages

[feral nova]

This may just be me but why the naked hate? If some loot piñata wanna run around collecting loot for me I'm cool with that.

[summer drift]

100% agreed. Slowing people down for unequipping stuff seems like a good way to balance it out

Maybe the real solution is to make armor good again like in the old playtests. If you're naked you should take like twice the amount of damage than someone on basic gear, just don't let it scale to where legendary armor makes you unkillable

[rigid prawn]

The weight of armor applying to the interaction speed could work, but would we allow resourcefulness to speed up the interaction? Does that defeat the purpose?

[feral nova]

Oh we've all seen the strip. lol I just think that there should still be a way to dump gear for a speed boost if you tryna run.

[rigid prawn]

Making base gear worth wearing would help a lot. wearing cloth pants shouldn't weigh you down anymore than being naked

[summer drift]

Agreed. Right now cloth pants slow you down just as much as leather for whatever reason, and cloth offers next to no protection

[feral nova]

I think that's a better solution, Hiiiiiigh risk for nakeds. Don't make it not a viable option, just make it a really hard one.

[rigid prawn]

Dropping the gold items in you inventory could be a good alternative! lol

[summer drift]

^^^ More loot should screw you over imo

[feral nova]

No straight up. W take.

[rigid prawn]

It shouldn't be anything more than a meme build. The less naked people the more immersive and visually appealing the game will be lol

[abstract swallow]

People forget that this is literally a mechanic in AD&D

[feral nova]

that's another good option, cause that way the people chasing you have to make a choice between grabbing loot and going for the kill

[abstract swallow]

also this is just straight facts, the rarity scaling system and the static weight penalties need to go the moment the game has all its core features like the substats and 3F dungeon implemented

[rigid prawn]

I have high hopes that better systems are on the way! These devs have their head in the right place

[abstract swallow]

Yeah, I think there will be a day and night difference between the cozy, barebones PT3/4 and the more advanced, feature-rich game we'll have after we see Class Trainer, Quests, Durability/Weight, and a real version of the main dungeon.

[feral nova]

Ive personally never seen devs listen to the community in the same way and impliment such 1;1 fixes in their game. I'm really impressed.

[abstract swallow]

Having devs that actually play their own game is a boon that cannot be matched

[feral nova]

its kinda hot ngl

[arctic lagoon]

Idea for torches, each different class lights them differently

Wizards flash a fire spell on it, fighter use flint n stone. not sure for others

[lucid root]

Developing a game that you yourself want to play, even better

[summer drift]

🙏

[dusky field]

I really hope they consider my suggestion for the dungeon crawling stuff. And I absolutely can't wait for the durability system

[arctic lagoon]

ok but dark souls 2 style durability would be fun

unless you had something else

[abstract swallow]

I was a little worried myself when I saw the repair screens and weight bars, but I realized that was just trauma from T*rkov talking.
There's a reason that things like carrying capacity and item damage have been in games for almost a century, even if people don't 'like' them, and they become more obvious every time we get to try the game.

[arctic lagoon]

I kinda hope that its just adjusts the size of the inventory instead of making it a make number go up or down

[ebon valve]

Why not go the other direction!? Give a +1 to all gear that passes the blue portal!

[arctic lagoon]

bit too busted, though id say that would work if you go high roller or high roller having unique portals

[uncut trout]

Does Jokester apply to the rouge himself?

[potent pumice]

Jokester apply to the Rogue and the party
Holy Aura which is similar also works the same way

[ebon valve]

From inferno! Sure!!

[arctic lagoon]

exactly, also i suggest earlier that they should add more portal types like gold ones that show up earlier or self made ones

[feral rock]

I wish they had less portals making more fights happen and puts you at risk for bringing good gear because you might have to fight other good geared guys to escape.

[arctic lagoon]

yeah but also it sucks when you just, end up dying to nothing when theres no portal spawning close

[dense sand]

if you're looking for fights they are so easy to get

esp halfway through the match, if you play alert and aggressive its easy to locate other players

[feral rock]

I am looking for them to have what they had on ruins in the start. Few portals and way down to a harder level. How ruins was, just ended up being coward hiding rogue heaven.

[feral rock]

just make them spawn later. Then it is more fair if you are afraid of them spawning too far away. I don't want the "I can linger around because I have a safe exit anyways". I want people to have to take the coward exit route. Or risk having to fight to get the last portal. For example the 3 man portal should never spawn until there is only 1 team left. For example

[chilly isle]

#RemoveDobleJump+RemoveHandCrossbow

[feral rock]

Or rather 3 people left

[fierce relic]

i just want to have an option to play a lobby without rogues. give them their own mirror's edge map to jump around

[scarlet temple]

Training room to practice swing patterns, throwing and ranged accuracy without losing gear

[lucid root]

Ruins should be like, you can descend pretty much right after you spawn, but you can stay longer to get some gear for floor 2

[feral rock]

did not see them that much in crypt or goblin cave. So go play there

[lucid root]

Like theres always a static staircase 1 room adjacent from spawns

Then keep floor 2/3 the same, should be punishing

[fierce relic]

yeah i did only play goblin caves after being shot god knows where in ruins.

only played ruins and crypt as a rogue... and felt dirty and ashamed

rogues just have it all mobility, speed, ranged, high dps and best in the game skills like hide

engage in fight when ever u want and leave when ever u want.

i love to slow passed gameplay of dad and rogue ruins it

[rugged eagle]

It's fine rogue is gonna get changed for EA we've only been exposed to these classes in playtests where they're pushing boundaries and seeing what works they will start caring about balance when EA releases

sdf has said in dev qna that balance is not even on their radar for the playtests so it's no wonder we saw wacky stuff like flying mosquito rogues

[fierce relic]

i hope so. dont mind me to much. when ever im drunk im come here and say how much i hate that class 😄

[rugged eagle]

Dw my dude I'm a fellow rogue hater I just have a good dose of to keep me sane

[spice wadi]

when will the game open

[obtuse osprey]

Maybe a spell for wizards on the same level as chain lightning? Like burning hands which is basically a cone of fire so wizards could have a high level crowd control spell that actually works. Or Devs could just actually make chain lightning good.

[hasty vigil]

i dont think wizard should have invis spell. ive thought bout it since pt4

[arctic lagoon]

I think there should be more potions that do general things to classes

[summer drift]

Durability would be a good way to balance out rewards for people who consistently use really good gear. Better gear = more money spent repairing it

Though slowing down the growth when you lose less games isn't necessarily a good thing, it may bring other problems instead

You would have to grind more when you lose your legendary gear because you'd have less leftover money for example, as opposed to just dropping money and buying it again from people trading it

But damaged gear would introduce an interesting complication to trading

[deft epoch]

They should remove double jump and make the backflip thing a perk with a set keybind. And make it more viable

[abstract swallow]

Damaged gear reducing the sheer value you get from any and every dead player is a big reason why I've turned around to become a big proponent of Durability, the economic benefits of repair tax/gradually filtering items out of the economy aside

[queen lotus]

I am game for anything that makes me more fluid in combat. I'll gladly trade double jump for a short dash.

Tumble is the right idea, but man is it useless.

[gloomy cradle]

They reset the downvotes on that terrible warlock suggestion?

[deft epoch]

They just need to make it more viable, (make it faster)

and make it not take and a skill slot

instead it should use a perk slot

double jump was mostly used to dodge

[glacial walrus]

Please God no. Wizard is in a rough place and without the ability to create space the class is screwed. There's a hard counter to invis too if you didn't know.. just listen for their footsteps

[summer drift]

"Wear headphones" lol

[feral rock]

I agree with them pushing limits to see what happens. Thats why I am disappointed they listened to everyone crying to how ruins was in start. I believe the ruins at start was better as it was not as easy to escape as rogue.

[pine comet]

I don’t think giving wizard the option to insta-cast (using quick chant) an unavoidable flamethrower coupled with the fire damage increase perks is a smart idea

I find chain lightning to be useful when you use corpses as lightning rods against players, like managing to get someone not in your line of sight because they were next to a corpse, or setting up an ambush around the corner

[lucid root]

Merchant romance mechanics

Make it happen

[summer drift]

💯 The progressive ruins map was better

[graceful frost]

It was absurd to escape from. Also they made it there own mode and added more blues just to test it out. It was borderline impossible to escape or even go down. Crap opened to late and there would be 10 ppl fighting at once. The amount of@times I wiped the lobby then died cause of no out portal was insane

[feral rock]

Well I like that ruins. Going down was not as hard as people claimed it to be. People just went down with shit gear. I even managed to escape 2 times going down there as a solo cleric and a solo rogue. I think they should have kept it that way. And just had it as a harder stage where you are suppose to go to the second floor to escape

[graceful frost]

you realize your supposed to have most of the lobby make it dont to the second layer. there is 3 layers after all and they want ppl on them. having portals only open with like 2 minute left, while 10 ppl are left fighting and like 2 out portals. there was like 3 ppl at most making it down. thats just the second floor not even the 3rd one. there was clearly an issue. it isnt supposed to be hard to go down. your supposed to. it took way to long for stairs to open and became a bloodbath

[rugged eagle]

100% agree people complaining about balance so hard they change one of the main focuses of the playtest makes me seethe

[glacial sphinx]

It's a tough balance because they need the game not to scare off existing players and to be enticing for new players coming in, while at the same time testing stuff like that. Maybe they need a more exclusive separate testing space for the more extreme ideas.

[rugged eagle]

I think too many people are treating these playtests like EA I saw so many people whining about servers and ruins/new crypt like they are not playing an unreleased alpha it was weird

If there are still insane balance issues in EA and the servers go down every few seconds again I'll be here complaining along with everyone but I did not expect a flawless experience in a playtest that frankly they were in no position to run considering the active lawsuit

[fiery ledge]

PT3: PvP Spawn Rush was "an issue"
PT4: Spawn rush was "essentially fixed" but a new "problem" arose: 3v3v3v3v3v3 over few portals
PT5: Wasn't fixed/changed and the amount of people that were expected to go down and etc as well as the ways available to go down did not match up with each other.

Meanwhile, in my head, even if most of the players were able to finally get their shit together long enough for enough people to actually make it down to the final level? Well... only five portals.

AND - its only going to take one circle closing on a 2 story room where a bunch of noobs who have no idea how to use their sound (or brain) are going to get gibbed by the darkness and blame the "lack of consistency" on "bad game design"...

Hard to want to talk about what the devs are doing/should be doing - so long as its hoping they stop reading everything we say

[graceful frost]

because the devs realized that they needed to do more tweaking to the actual ruin level before adding it as b1. it was pretty obvious. they arent changing it purely on ppls opinions. but I swear ppl get mad when devs dont listen to players but the second they do listen to players ppl also get mad.

the stairs not opening until two min left was an issue. 4 teams fighing in the last zone or to just to go down is not good. They do not even always close on one of the stairs. it obviously needed more tweaks

[fiery ledge]

PT#3: Spawn rushing is a prevalent and valid strat
PT#4: Map/Spawn change essentially fixes most spawn rushing issues but creates the issue of massive team fights over few portals near the final circle
PT#5: The above issue from PT#4 still persists

I don't wonder if the things they do are intentional or not. Especially after watching them revert or edit nerfs on things they just nerfed/edited 30 mins prior whatever new nerf.

[graceful frost]

?

[fiery ledge]

Even more worthless is the game of telephone that people play with the intention of the devs. Clearly there are some things they want to experiment with and some of it has changed in accordance to the stuff they've said since December.

[graceful frost]

dont think anybody said otherwise. dont see what this has to do with anything

[fiery ledge]

What a surprise.

[graceful frost]

just dont see the point of what ur saying. any why explain when you can say "what a surprise"

[rugged eagle]

Lets not pretend like community sentiment played no part in the f1 b1 changes if they wanted to tweak f1 they couldve done that instead of removing tge whole purpose of the map. It was a new map give it 1-2 more days and people wouldve figures out the stairs mechanic i even saw groups hanging around them just before removal so players were catching on

[graceful frost]

did I ever pretend like community sentiment played no part? you realise its good when game devs take some advice from the community. also it was not "not knowing about the stairs" almost everyone I saw knew about them and still had issues. many many games my duo and I would completely wipe lobbies, but had no chance of getting out even if we tried to run to the stairs. they opened extremely late almost everyone lived and the zone was so small at the point they opened that up to it was an absurd blood bath you couldnt get away from. It needed change. In my opinion it was not very fun to play at all not extracting even if I was last alive

just sayin there was reasoning for it. and they obviously arent taking every single thing the community says and adding it. if a dev team takes advice or listens to the community in some way its much better. there are so many games that are awful to play and have awful balancing cause they do not care what the community says.

[rugged eagle]

Both of our experiences with them are clearly anecdotal as from my end nobody would even use the stairs and did not know how they opened shortly before the feature was removed from the map. How exactly is it good to instantly react in such a way that you remove a core part of a map due to complainers? Is the purpose of this playtest not to gather data? Not to mention the stairs did open a bit late but it was not that difficult to enter them just run through the zone to them? That's why there were few blue portals on the map because the stairs were a consistent path down.

There is nothing wrong with listening to their community but it shows a lack of confidence in their vision and game if they don't even give people the time to adjust this was the first open map we had with preset down portals of course there are going to be issues the answer isn't to just completely remove it

[graceful frost]

do you really think they are 100 percent only considering the community. they are not looking in general, saying oh look they dont like it and removing it. They made it a seperate mode because they think the actual map needed changes. not just the way down

[rugged eagle]

Considering they're changing stuff like crypt lighting which has 0 impact on the game and was due to complainers... yeah? The devs are very active in the community I never said it was 100% but it is clearly having an effect

This is getting off topic anyway my point was simply that people have been treating the playtests too harshly and getting uppity about balance when the devs themselves have said fun takes priority over balance this playtest they are not testing balance atm

[graceful frost]

that was never rlly ur point lol. so many games have been ruined cause dev teams dont listen to players. it is not a lack of confidence in their vision, its being good developers lol. everyone I saw new about the stairs easily.

[rugged eagle]

How was that not my point? Read my original comment again I said that playtests are PLAYTESTS and that they are not even close to a finished product so people complaining about balance and servers are shouting to the void

[graceful frost]

except you also mentioned how a community sentiment was part of it and how theyh should have given it more time.

[rugged eagle]

I even said that I'd agree with the complainers once the game comes out in EA and it is still in this state I am not denying the new maps and perks had issues in terms of balance but this is to be expected in a playtest what did people think they were signing up for?

[graceful frost]

ppl knew they were signing up for a playtest? a playtest is meant to test stuff yes, but it is also meant to fix bugs and issues. Hence why they made it a seperate mode to improve upon the map more.

[rugged eagle]

But they did not improve the map... They removed core aspects of it and left it to be a rogue haven for the rest of the playtest what useful data could they have gathered other then what we already know that double jump was stupidly op on it

All they had to do was tweak the stair timer no? Why even remove those aspects of the map

[graceful frost]

omg what they did not instantly make changes to a new map in the middle of a 5 day playtest on torrent while dealing with a ton of ddossing and stress? it was already a rogue haven and would continue. I though they should just tweak the stair timer, and most ppl though that, clearly they had a different idea and a different idea of things they wanted to fix

[rugged eagle]

???? Incase you're forgetting the new map and bard were the main aspects of this playtest so I'm gonna ask again what purpose does it serve to neuter the main part of your playtest that you wan't to test

Don't act like tweaking the stair timer would put an incredible strain on their development it probably took more effort to outright remove the stairs

[graceful frost]

? to test it? they did not want to make everyone play a map they did not like. so they made it a seperate mode. and to get feedback on how to improve it. it was not neutering the main part of the playtest. that is a completely obnoxious thing to say. they had a reason for making it a seperate mode and clearly think things need to be improved. you realize the mode still exists? its not like they removed b1 from the game. I never said tweaking the stair timer would put a strain on development. Stop assuming things I never said. also it most likely barely took effort to remove the stairs.

one of the things you said is that they just took what the community said and went for it. Barely any ppl just wanted it strait up a different mode? clearly the devs had something in mind. Ppl said they did not like it the devs are working to make it better and fix it

[rugged eagle]

Fair enough this argument is just going in circles now we clearly have different views on this. To answer your earlier question about mentioning community sentiment this was part of my original comment with players having a warped view of what a playtest is vs a released product. Peace

[graceful frost]

smh my head

[spice kiln]

i live in your wall

[summer drift]

They're made out of concrete so you're gonna have a hard time

[restive drum]

Whyd they close suggestions

[meager jasper]

The hopium answer is "They're working on getting the EA out the door, and the time for suggestions is over for the time being..."

[outer scaffold]

Potion/shrine of temporary double jumping would be hilarious and usefull

[rugged eagle]

Ranger getting double jump and jumping up somewhere unreachable to snipe you spooky stuff

[outer scaffold]

@rugged eagle you mean like rogues do with the handcrossbow?, if it was a potion it would be rare or as rare as clarity, limited duration etc, it would make for some exicting stuff

[rugged eagle]

Exactly and rogue handcrossbow is a nightmare already lol

[abstract swallow]

you didn't even need doublejump to get to some really cheeky spots before, if anything DJ just nerfed those spots by getting people into the habit of looking up

man, I can't wait for the rest of the casting classes to get added so we can finally get some Illusion/Abjuration magic
give me telekinesis and mirror images and illusory terrain and mob pacification, I want to be a silly little gnomish trickster running around the dungeon pranking people (to death)

[rugged eagle]

Abjuration will be also would like some conjuration spells

[abstract swallow]

summoning monsters and commanding the mobs already in the dungeon is my dream
I yearn for the era of the D*ckwraith in the guise of a jolly lil' dude

[rugged eagle]

Let me find familiar and have a little rat dude scout ahead for me

[latent tundra]

P5 owned all things considered

[abstract swallow]

pre-rollback PT5 was pretty great, especially since Rogues hadn't started wholesale abusing DJ yet

[feral rock]

I totally agree with you on the argument here. They changed it too fast before people could learn and adjust. Also everyone was badly geared. I believe if ruins was added 2-3 days into the playtest we would not hear that amount of whining because people would be better geared. I also agree stairs could have opened earlier.

The biggest argument you have that I agree with is that it was a playtest and people acted like it was early access and by that reason shit on how ruins was. I think it was be better to keep it that was than make it a rogue heaven which it was for the whole playtest. Just even highlighting more how broken double jump was.

[summer drift]

Does the rogue really need to be so fast?

[feral rock]

What else does it have going for them besides being fast and looting

[rugged eagle]

Hopefully ruins will be in a good spot for EA because it was my favourite map before the change. Same with the new B1 I loved the blue lighting

[sturdy quarry]

Rouge could still be very fast, we just need the devs to do something about double-jump strafe spam, maybe a cooldown, etc… just spitballing

[feral rock]

I thought the map was really interesting. Did not get to experience it too much before the change. But I was annoyed by the change because of the rogue infestion it became. I guess I am stupid. But i never really understood the 1f 1b etc. Is it 1st floor as in where ruins start. B1 as in if one takes portal or stairs to go to next level?

[rugged eagle]

F1 is ruins B1 is the crypt you take the stairs down to

[feral rock]

Gotcha. Ye. The blue lightning there were cool

[rugged eagle]

I played it a ton pre change and post change and the map was great but after stairs removal it became giga infested with rogues

[feral rock]

I also think the blue b1 was in a good shape. I just think people were shit geared and complained it was too hard instead of learning it

[summer drift]

It feels like it makes more sense on d&d than here. They're better at disarming traps and scouting, but in here there's no opportunity attacks when in range and running away is way easier for them. I feel like if they had sneak attack bonuses they wouldn't need to be quite so fast

[pallid vapor]

I liked b1, double jump flat out ruined it for me. B2 is obviously better but they've had tons of time to perfect it. I hope they don't scrap b1 all together and just try to improve it

[summer drift]

I feel like double jump should be more or a jump off of walls mechanic

Making it more prince of Persia style or like the rogue from Mystara, so that it pushes you away from walls

[abstract swallow]

the big issue with DJ really is the lack of a cooldown and that you can activate it at any time, the sheer amount of mobility it gives is just unmanageable unless you already planned to dunk him in 1-2 shots at range

[summer drift]

I feel like the only real issue comes when they spam it to run away or in open areas. If it was more situational (such as only being able to use it to jump off of walls) you'd have to plan in advance to use it effectively

[abstract swallow]

a walljump is probably a better form for it, alongside a cooldown and restricting it from being used during slows

[maiden halo]

The barbarian, warrior, and wizard have the ability to overtake the rogue. Taking any damage with a rogue cuts the speed, but he didn’t have any tools to break the distance. Because of what the robber was obliged to kill or die.
The vast majority of rogues were whipping puppets, unable to run, which doesn't fit well with the description as the fastest but fragile class in the game.

I speak as a main fighter/wizard.

[sturdy quarry]

Ah, sorry I blanked on that, good point

[worldly fern]

So maybe, put a cd or something on double jump, and fix rogue armor so doesn't punish his mov speed that much? Anyways we will see how weight system affect movement and rogues

[warm spoke]

was weight system confirmed?

[abstract swallow]

the current weight system just being a straight nerf for wizard/rogue/ranger until they get damagestacked gear is abysmal, so pretty much anything would be an upgrade
it'd also help with those classes and Fighter having tons of points poured into Resourcefulness

[rugged eagle]

Even in my stinky fighter gear I had 0 problem handling new B1 so I think it was skill issue tbh

[abstract swallow]

they've confirmed one is in the works, but like with the Class Trainer they haven't settled on a final implementation

[warm spoke]

You can get +5 on ring & pendants on orange tier, that's 15 in a given stat

[abstract swallow]

shhh, the plebs aren't aware of jewelry that isn't more damage stacking
don't tip them off, I like getting cheap bulk +stat jewelry

that said it's not like I really buy the stuff once I start rolling consistent HRs, a single run nets you like 3+ necklaces and rings each

[worldly fern]

To be fair, rings loot ratio was good. But they really need to do something with "pendant" room, its a goldmine

[abstract swallow]

they need to put jewelry in its own chat already, for the love of god
and split rooms into low-end (up to and including Blue) and high-end (Blue and beyond)
and let us have multiple trade chats open at once

the trading system is cozy, but having to bob between three different chats to gear and getting trades from a chat you aren't even in for items you don't have anymore is a huge pain

[patent mauve]

Yeah we do need a better system, I really don't want to use 3rd party websites to trade gear..

[abstract swallow]

at least the tradechats will be much more manageable and reasonable once there's a cash barrier to the game

the unlimited tradebots and mule alts being gone with be a blessing, especially with people already automating the latter

[patent mauve]

I can't wait to make an uber healing rat cleric build. Buying all the resourcefulness rings and +magic healing items on the market. I can't wait for this game ahhhh

[rancid jetty]

It's probably already been suggested but a shared stash to trade gear between your characters

[summer drift]

In d&d rogues can kill faster than most other melee classes because of sneak attack bonuses, and that compensates them being unable to run away once they engage

If anything the class that should outrun anyone is the monk, but they have zero kill power. Unless they were implemented as anti mage tanks they wouldn't be worth having. Maybe we don't need so much variety in melee classes

[rugged eagle]

Rogue is thematically meant to be an anti backline character so he kinda needs the speed to access them I don't have a problem with him being speedy the problem is stuff like double jump which gives him access to locations you do not

[patent mauve]

I'd be okay with a shared stash that costs silver coins to move gear.

[summer drift]

The thing is he can already do that with stealth. I don't think the speed is really necessary to accomplish it. Personally I'd feel better if they traded off some speed for stealth bonuses or something like that. That way if he gets found out he's dead, but they're forced to strategize more and not just jump people.

[rugged eagle]

Actually I agree yeah stealth should be emphasized more it looks like they could potentially go down that path as sdf mentioned rogue getting stealth buffs this playtest(pickpocket while stealth) which unfortunately did not happen

[summer drift]

Nice

[rugged eagle]

I'm not sure which is more annoying though a speed demon or a dude constantly in stealth I guess atleast with stealth you can use wizard light orb to find him

[summer drift]

Yeah, and if you do find him he won't get away for free

Right now they're one of the worst offenders of the naked meta, their strategy is just drop all your gear and run away whenever anything goes wrong.

[rugged eagle]

I think if double jump is removed rogue becomes tolerable instantly it's the main offender of rogue balance

It's a really fun skill and I appreciate that the devs want fun over balance atm but the skill is so crazy

[summer drift]

I still find their speed to be the worst part. The only thing that can counter that are ranged classes. In melee you just wish you could grapple and strangle those bastards so they can't run, but that's not an option

[rugged eagle]

To be fair every class gets access to a ranged option and as a fighter chad one good crossbow shot sends the rat rogues reeling

[summer drift]

I honestly don't think it's enough to compensate

[rancid pebble]

Lads i want chain mail armour for the weaker classes to get a lil bit of that AR that the fighters and clerics have been hogging

[rugged eagle]

Who would be a good candidate for chainmail do you think?

[obtuse lichen]

barbarian, archer with special perk

something like can cannot use bows but gets access to medium armor
crossbowman

[rugged eagle]

Don't really agree with barb but ranger sounds alright

[rancid pebble]

nah im thinking bard, ranger, fighter, and possibly rogue

[rugged eagle]

Chainmail could actually be cool for fighter if they keep slayer in it's current state

[rigid prawn]

Disengage is in the D&D rogues toolset, by your metric rogues working as intended!

[reef spindle]

if warlock would be able to do self sacrifices to get more powerful what sacrificies it would be?
Like lose health

[rugged eagle]

Sacrifice health for spells

[reef spindle]

maybe sacrifice stats?

I hope how dark or light room is will effect some spells

[rugged eagle]

Drain life spell or drain stat spell could be cool but that's just because I'm a WoW warlock main

[rigid prawn]

This is how it should work for summons. A concentrated portion of your health reserved for the summon. It could be visually on the health bar and also function as the summons health bar. Would make it so to summon more mobs you require stats (raw health) or higher risk (2 summons puts a base warlock at roughly 10hp, dying to anything in 1 hit). Would make the summoning gameplay more high risk high reward and also a Rangers favourite matchup lol.

[summer drift]

🤔

[meager jasper]

Barb already has a chainmail.

[rugged eagle]

Oh right the northen tunic. Completely forgot about it

[rigid prawn]

as a rogue in D&D, using disengage can allow you to pull away from an enemy without triggering thier attack of opportunity. You could argue double jump in a way achieves this style of hit and run gameplay but full disclosure i think double jump (or the map) need to be fixed

[rigid prawn]

Should be wearable by the fighter 2 :(

[rugged eagle]

Never seen any barbs use it just regal gambeson it looks pretty cool

[reef spindle]

Should warlock be able to perform rituals on dead players?
what do you think?

[rugged eagle]

I have no clue what they plan to do with soul hearts if there are even any plans past reviving friends would be a good question for dev qna

[reef spindle]

of course rituals would last pretty long
40-70s

[rigid prawn]

Make use of the soul item besides reviving but it shouldnt be op. Maybe works as a health potion?

Or are you talking full on creating a thrall lol

[reef spindle]

I mean, on enemy players

[rigid prawn]

Yeah that would be hard to make not op. Not hating the idea of it though

[rugged eagle]

They're the only class that it makes sense for them to have an interaction with it unless the devs become giga based and add necromancer

[reef spindle]

why tho?
warlock would have to stand still for at least 40s
you could attack him to interrupt it
or just steal your friend's soul to prevent it

[meager jasper]

I use it all the time as barb. It's difficult to actually get hold of one at a decent price with barb though. In PT4 it was high-demand enough that you could reliably sell whites

[rigid prawn]

Warlocks are necromancers essentially, but much more. So many different types of warlock you can almost look at warlock as broad word for "wizard who draws powers from otherworldly creatures" lol

[rugged eagle]

Warlocks are basically sorcerers who get their powers from a patron necromancers are more like soul wizards

[rigid prawn]

Whats the end result? Im not arguing against the process sounds cool as hell!

[rugged eagle]

Both deal in souls but they're pretty distinct thematically and in practice

[reef spindle]

warlocks aren't really necromancers
but the part about otherworldly creatures is true
it is either having powers from them or trying to make otherwordly creatures obey warlocks

warlock can be necromancer
but really anyone can be necromancer

[rigid prawn]

Fair, could make it an branch off of wizard in that its just another arcane understanding. I don't know if it would just be Class bloat to add a whole class for it though.

[meager jasper]

I seem to recall hearing the devs didn't want to add summoning? That's hearsay though. I would like conjuration or necromancy though, it's pretty cool.

[reef spindle]

I was thinking either buff to your party or curse on the dungeon

[rugged eagle]

They have talked about necromancer stuff before but the revealed class list did not include it

[rugged eagle]

Also I can see why it's just a straight upgrade to regal gambeson wtf

[reef spindle]

would dooming a room in dangeon as ritual result be op?
like everyone dies inside
but they have time to escape

[rugged eagle]

Necromancer is a school of magic in D&D instead of it's own class I don't even necessarily want summons just some soul themed magic would satisfy me

[lethal light]

Yes… do it

[rigid prawn]

The devs want a necromancer but that doesn't have to mean summons. Bone based magic through bone armor, bone spear etc would fill out their ability pool. Could go full diablo and give them access to blood magic too lol

[rigid prawn]

I can get behind that!

[lethal light]

Ya know how bards can “tame” enemies for a bit? Imagine that but only undead and skeletons and they do less damage to you :3

[reef spindle]

Curse I can thinkg about:
darkness
upgraded mobs
random demons across the dungeon

[rugged eagle]

Summons will break the game if they have pathing and collision it will probably be just like projectiles and aoe that has the appearance of a summon locust swarm is already a good example of this

[rigid prawn]

Exactly! Making a dark wizard makes more sense to me than making a whole Necromancer class!

@lethal light A turn undead spell would be awesome for clerics and warlocks alike!

[rugged eagle]

I am hopeful that the class trainer follows the path of adding new features to a class somewhat similiar to subclassing instead of just like 5% more fire damage

[lethal light]

But why turn undead when you can burn undead “holy purification”

[rigid prawn]

The skies the limit when D&D is your inspiration lol

[lethal light]

Then it’s decided, I’m going to get a Mach7 movement speed build

[rigid prawn]

Seconded. Seeing Ice mages or Fire mage builds would be an awesome expansion to the wizard system

[rugged eagle]

Wizard fly spell please gonna gmod noclip out of the map

[lethal light]

I imagine it exactly like the Spiderman tpose flying xD

[reef spindle]

what if warlock could possess a person for 3s?

[rigid prawn]

@rugged eagle This is the exact reason why i even defend DJ in the first place. Items like ring of jumping or the spell literally called jump that TRIPLES your jump height could very possibly be in the game in some shape or form.

[reef spindle]

or 1,5s
3s would be too powerful

[lethal light]

(T-poses through wall)

[reef spindle]

would be crazy to possess a player to attack his friends

[lethal light]

How about just scrying, implementation would be hell and a half

[dusky field]

Can't wait for them to implement "wish" into the game so we can ruin everything

[rugged eagle]

I wish for rogue to be deleted

[rigid prawn]

It would have to work like the Bard spell. Would be super jank if you had to control them yourself lol

[reef spindle]

scrying?

[dusky field]

x2

[lethal light]

A spell that allows one to see another sentient humanoid, most normally through said humanoids eyes or a invisible sensor nearby, works up to a mile in dnd

[lethal light]

I wish for… 1MILLION WISHES

[rigid prawn]

I think most DMs leave wish as a plot point spell or to fix problems and being able to explain it away. Noone in their right mind just gives their players Wish like they would Fireball lol

[reef spindle]

maybe warlock spell which summons tentacle from your possition which pull enemy towards you?
like in darkest dungeon

[lethal light]

So like a better earthquake

[reef spindle]

no, just one tentacle pulling enemy really fast
it wouldn't be a damage spell

all those running rangers and rogues

[rigid prawn]

Would be interesting to see more effects be added beyond poison, slow, etc. Sleep would be especially funny, blind would be hilarious as well.

[lethal light]

I gave my cleric a wish once, because he was always true to his character… his motivation to being a cleric was his wife died (nearly to his own hands) and he wanted to defeat death himself to get her back… he used the wish to save his friend, and then traded his own life to death for his wife… 10/10 wish usage

[reef spindle]

make someone sleep then sacrifice them

[rugged eagle]

Arms of hadar but opposite I expect to see some hadar spells for warlock

[rigid prawn]

A player to keep around absolutely! '

[reef spindle]

Weakening and Vulnerability Hex would be cool too

[lethal light]

Whispering and slurping sounds come from a tear between the stars… a milky white substance eats away at your flesh- a description of the hunger of hadar… virgins definitely made that spell xD

[rigid prawn]

Similar to my suggestion for Oaths, Warlock should get a tree split in his builder for Pacts. Pacts give flat bonuses but in different ways, could potentially give banes for balance as well!

[rugged eagle]

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MzVUdTOHoP58VvcSDbA

[lethal light]

He’s pretty awesome, made his cleric a god of redemption and now he has a paladin serving it in the next game, dudes a legend fr

[rugged eagle]

It wouldn't be D&D otherwise

[rigid prawn]

Tying in old characters into new campaigns will thrill your players, highly recommend it

[lethal light]

I thank DnD personally, helped me meet my gf and (hopefully) fiancé in a couple weeks

[lethal light]

The tie ins are getting crazy in my current one xD my favorite is turning a random Npc they attach to a main story point and then… killing it 😈

[rigid prawn]

Grats dude! You really get to know people in D&D, a lot of people use it as an outlet for their problems lol

[lethal light]

Yeah the ability to express is insane, most the time the players don’t even know where or why those emotions are coming from but it helps them a ton

Really… server… you blocked the tism word

I said I have the tism, not calling someone- oh NeverMind then, blah blah blah, I like writing and I has the tism DnD = good

[rigid prawn]

Lol, the chat filter is very strict hard to work around it!

[summer drift]

Don't worry, it blocked me multiple times for saying the words nerf and heavy armor the other night

[halcyon seal]

nerf heavy armor

[abstract swallow]

nerf light armor

[halcyon seal]

buff naked skin

[arctic lagoon]

Ideas for different looks on weapons? Maybe rust, polish or magically glowing #d-and-d-suggestions message

[tribal patio]

give zweihander a overhead

[arctic lagoon]

also yes

[graceful frost]

no

[restive drum]

Why do people want wizard fly spells

[rancid pebble]

idk that sounds funny, leviosa

[feral rock]

A lot of points where people are complaining comes down to a skill issue. And sadly one will resort to listen to the mass cry instead of following what they saw a good direction and good plan for the playtest

[bright sierra]

idk... people also want to conjure/control mobs, neither of which are good ideas for this game imo

[feral rock]

Because they are jealous of rogue. Having invis and fly just make them a better rogue like they were in pt4

[chilly loom]

difigiano

[abstract swallow]

Mob chicanery is a perfect fit for this game, have you never run a mobtrain as Wizard/Rogue or used minibosses you punch-up into grouped players as a solo?
It's a PvPvE game, start experimenting! I've watched entire teams crumple without lifting a finger, all because I dragged the CrossBones from the central chamber of Crypt to Donut/Big Circle.

[patent mauve]

Fr, invis potions are underrated for this. Instantly the fight becomes one sided as they chase you into a group of mobs.

[rigid prawn]

Something to keep in mind, if wizard gets fly that means all the other classes also get fly. If fly is added to the game as a spell it will more then likely be able to be cast on other people. Jump is also a spell that would even the playing field entirely while still retaining DJ on rogue

Now just think of a rogue with jump/fly :P

[patent mauve]

Give wizard slowfall/levitate

[rugged eagle]

Imagine a barb flying at you at mach 10

[rigid prawn]

the possibilities are endless!

[rigid prawn]

Getting attached to placeholder systems is a slippery slope! Listening to the devs in how they describe their vision for the game will give you a better expectation of direction.

Multiple casters have been heavily talked about already, with the wizard being described as the "Utility" mage. The current wizard plays closer to their idea for a sorcerer, and warlock was already shown as an upcoming class. Expect magic to get more complicated than it is now at least.

Not saying flying's guaranteed, but the devs have shown interest in playing around with the idea

[compact barn]

Flying sounds dumb in this game lol

[abstract swallow]

"getting attached to a placeholder system" is one of my biggest worries about these playtests.
People are going to throw absolute tantrums over every addition that expands beyond the boundaries or restricts the simplicity or these basic, barebones test builds.

[lucid root]

#dev-qna-archives message

[abstract swallow]

you could make the placeholder system yourself in a particularly productive weekend at this point, plenty of clones are already cropping up to copy that much
I'm not interested in some admittedly fun barebones hack-build, I want to see the developer's vision fulfilled

[rugged eagle]

I can understand rogue double jump not inspiring confidence but I'm curious about bard? The bard we got access to was obviously unfinished so it's a bit premature to judge it

I like that they are adding another support class so we can finally move away from cleric being mandatory for groups.

In it's current state bard indeed does nothing but I am hopeful that when EA comes out they will get some sweet support songs to help them stand out

[rigid prawn]

overlap is fine if the classes are distinct. playstyle variety should be encouraged not limited imo

[restive drum]

How are classes distinct if they overlap

[rugged eagle]

I assume he means some overlap in the classes are fine if they are still distinct from eachother i.e both are healers but their methods of healing are different

[rigid prawn]

Overlap doesn't mean one to one. Think of a Venn Diagram.

[rancid pebble]

someone with sense, I would also imagine that sorcerer or warlock would mainly have damage spells while wizard retains haste, invis, slow, etc

[lucid root]

Imagine how much worse it would be if they were making these big core changes in early access when much more people would be playing and complaining

[lilac silo]

gotta turn off the balance-brain

[restive drum]

Any amount of overlap destroys the uniqueness of classes as a video game element

[rigid prawn]

If the designs feel familiar enough it can, but i dont think anyone will mix up a bard with a cleric. Paladin and cleric would be harder to tell apart by far so imo should be combined into a single class through the yet to be implemented skill tree in someway. By your metric you could argue that barb and fighter are too close mechanically so one should be scrapped. With playstyle and artistic differences you can create distinct classes even if they do similar roles.

A bard healing over time with a song does not feel the same as the burst heals of the cleric as an example.

[restive drum]

Tbh i will argue bard and cleric are to similar cleric needs a rework and bard needs buffs. cleric can heal and fight and cast insta killing spells more powerfull then a wizard and give buffs to teamates make cleric heal and fight and bard focused on mainly buffs and maybe some small heals

[abstract swallow]

sounds like they should rework all those other classes so they aren't similar to cleric

[spice zephyr]

Cleric focuses on initiation.
-healing to keep the party going
-area denial spells
Bard focuses on trolling
The fact that cleric is able to still fare ok solo is a fact, but I doubt they want to negatively alter the viability of classes to solo

[rigid prawn]

As far as i know, balance revolves around team play first. You will see some classes do better in solo than others but those weaker classes have strengths when in a team. There are lots of games in and outside DADs inspirations that have implemented overlapping class design successfully: overwatch, DOTA, or D&D table top even.

[spice zephyr]

I come from a valorant background, so I have a decent idea of the overlap between characters, their crucial features and how devs try to make them distintctive, but I simply cannot see how bard is to be developed to have his own niche, his identity in tabletop games lead him to exceel in non combat character encounters whilst also giving him the ability to support the team with some ranged damage and eventual melee, however it's hard to show a bard's distinctive features in a pvp enviroment

Let's just wait till they introduce dragons and have the bards seduce them, then he will finally become competetive

[rigid prawn]

One of the best perks of a Bard is actually their Jack of all Trades aspect. They can do everything well, but not anything better than another class. Seeing how they can translate this to DAD will be interesting, but basing off the current bard is short sighted when the class was in a barely playable place.

Charm has a lot of potential would love to see if the DAD devs could implement it in a meaningful way!

You could look at pt5 bard as Tier 0 implementation, if i remember correctly he had 5-6 perks? Thats a fraction of the other classes.

[spice zephyr]

5 perks I think, I know he is still very undeveloped, but even then it's hard to see his future prospects as something other than a troll class/ a pack mule. The argument with his role in D&D is fair, but if we go by simply Dungeons and Dragons aspects of classes, bard will be outclassed by druid in the jack of all trades category 70% of the time. I think that the bard will struggle, since I would realistically believe that developers would chose to develop better defined classes before then coming back to the oddball that the bard is

[rigid prawn]

Things will be always changing throughout the development of the game. Druids have a lot of Jack of all trades abilities but this plays into my point of overlap not being a bad thing. Theres no way you would mistake a cleric, bard, or druid for any of eacother visually or through their abilities. Will the druid, cleric and bard all have healing abilities? Probably, but the visuals of each of their abilities with the combination of their other abilities could create distinct gameplay that can be fun to play and offer variety to the expereince for everybody. Noone wants to see the same Cleric, Fighter, Ranger teams every dungeon.

Hell i wouldn't be surprised if we see spell overlap, there is a lot of that in D&D, let alone multiclassing lol

[spice zephyr]

The big variety that one class can take is currently making it hard to describe what exactly we would expect from future classes to be distinctive, I believe that any role should be plausibly filled by 2 classes fighting for that position
If we take a quick look at the current baseline roles:
-Fighter[Tank/Physical DPS]
-Barbarian[Tank/Physical DPS]
-Ranger[Physical DPS/Initiator]
-Rogue[Physical DPS/ Magical DPS]
-Wizard[Magical DPS/Initiator]
-Cleric[Initiator/Physical DPS*]
And then there is the bard who is presumably just an initiator, and then a blank slate for the subrole.
If we continue with this scheme, we can safely describe other classes which would then be more streamlined
-Druid[Initiator/Magical DPS]
-Warlock[Magical DPS/Initator]
-Monk[Physical DPS/ Magical DPS]
-Paladin[Tank/Initiator]
-Sorcerer[Magical DPS].
This is obviously a fair bit assumptious, but it's fair to say that we will see clear overlap in roles whilst also keeping distinctive class charasteristics, but the thing with bard is that his sole visible role is initation, at which he so far fares rather bad.

*- cleric intertwines a fair bit of magical damage, so whilst he still deals more dps with melee, taking account of resistances he is a more so mixed damage dealer

so yes, I agree that we should see variety between teams with many classes being able to fit required roles, but I disagree that bard right now has the foundations to fit well in the current system

[restive drum]

Bro wrote a novel

[rigid prawn]

Hey buff bard, im not arguing against expanding his toolset, but passive buffs/ heals can be strong in a prolonged fight and the lack of spell slots means the team with the bard technically can always outlast the other team. Being able to hold multiple songs like with the relationship of the healing and acceleration song being maintainable at the same time is an example of a good mechanic that could be expanded on.

The little bit i played bard during PT 5 my fighter loved me because he would have second wind in every team fight as i NEVER stopped playing. My barb friend loved the interaction speed buff as well since he could actually loot naturally instead of having to take smash for speed looting.

Not to mention that Pacify still allowed casters to throw spells so the wizard synergy is pretty obvious from there.

Just saying, the synergies are there if you look for them, and maybe bard becomes that class that's always dragging at the bottom of the barrel but i doubt that will stop the diehard bard players. People want to play music.

[restive drum]

You guys are gonna kill me

[rigid prawn]

This is the discussion channel what do you want us to do?

[restive drum]

Discuss less!!! XD

[spice zephyr]

we should flip a coin, head means buff bard into oblivion, tails he gets removed

[rigid prawn]

Your wish is my command as i must sleep, goodnight all

[spice zephyr]

Cya!

[rigid prawn]

😂

[spice zephyr]

Only the worst outcomes remain, and oftentime the bad decisions are funny

[granite plinth]

Warlocks are not necromancers, none of you have played DnD

[compact barn]

Geef legendary bard lute that is an axe and you can murderize people with it like a war guitar

[rigid prawn]

Not traditionally no, but through invocations and a little home brew it’s not out of the question. Warlocks fit the theme of necromancers but so do dark wizards. If classes are combined to reduce redundancy, wizard would probably be a candidate but all it would take is for them to create lore for a patron that gives a “Pact of the Tome” that delves into necromancy and you are there. Considering the soul manipulation theme of warlock, I wouldnt call it far fetched to give necromancy to the class.

[granite plinth]

I think selling your soul for power is a long shot off raising the dead, you're entering seriously heavily homebrewed areas here, if something isn't innately evil it doesn't create undead in DnD

[steady harness]

pls add traps that go into tunnels under colosseum

[rigid prawn]

I wouldn’t consider Valorants systems complicated vs DAD. Attacking or defending a bomb site is the only real objective of the game, characters are just made to amplify aspects of doing so.

DAD is a high fantasy game, not medieval. We already have non combat abilities in classes like the rogues lock pick/pickpocketing or wizards light orb (which has some combat roles for vision like seeing through invisibility but I digress)

Highly recommend looking through the dev q&a part of the discord to get a better idea of their vision

[meager jasper]

I dont know why you're conflating necromancy with warlocks at all. The two things have no overlap in dnd. Even death pact warlocks cannot use animate dead because it breaks their spell economy.

Going purely on what a warlock is in dnd, they may have something like an unchangable package of spells from a patron they select.

[granite plinth]

For clarity, I don’t care if they do give warlocks necromancy, it wouldn’t bother me, I want the devs to do whatever they want with all of the classes. I just don’t want people to be spamming necromancy in the suggestions box and pressuring devs to make the class something it is not

[rigid prawn]

That’s a surface level understanding of warlocks. DAD is very much a home brew game for copyright reasons it has to be. Warlocks tend to not be on the best alignment depending on their patron, would argue they are more “evil” than your average wizard. Putting necromancy into the warlock would reduce bloat on what could be the already potentially bloated wizard spell list. The devs can place it where they like to obviously but makes sense to me!

[granite plinth]

I think you play too much homebrew and you need to read up on warlocks

[meager jasper]

The draw of wizard should be bloated spell selection imo.

[rigid prawn]

You say that but by reading up on the pact of the tome, your argument is overturned entirely.

[meager jasper]

The core concept of the warlock is not "evil". It's having a patron that gives you a themed spell set and weird magic-like powers.

I very much doubt that unless its part of a subclass system that a tome pact warlock will exist as the core thing this class actually is.

[rigid prawn]

The patron can be evil alignment though, higher chance of that than not as well. Neutral is a common alignment for patrons as well but you could argue that a “moral” necromancer could be established like in the Diablo series. DAD is a standalone “home brew” based off of D&D but that doesn’t mean they have to 100% follow 5e guide lines. Hell I don’t think any good DM does that either. Rule of cool > concrete rules.

[rigid prawn]

This is essentially what I had in mind for the implementation. I made a suggestion for Oaths in a skill tree for clerics that would allow them to subclass paladin, I’m viewing pacts on the warlock in the same way

[rigid prawn]

Summon undead is literally listed on the d&d wiki as a level 3 spell available to warlocks. Surprising no one, this is listed under the necromancy school. Even without home brew, it’s still possible

[rugged eagle]

Pretty sure they get all the spicy necromancer spells like animate dead and finger of death

[abstract swallow]

I figure that Warlock will get to reap the edgy spells from Wizard and Cleric both.

[granite plinth]

Yeah you’re dipping into necromancy at that point, wizard also apparently? Maybe a 5e thing?
Interestingly enough thats the one spell where you aren’t creating undead, you call forth a spirit that manifests in the form of undead, unlike all the other spells where you are resurrecting a pile of bones or a corpse and creating undead.

[rugged eagle]

Ye create undead is what you're describing you ressurrect a corpse as a ghoul or wight pretty sure it's 6th level and wizard/warlock get access to it

[granite plinth]

Necromancers are just necromancy wizards I guess

[rugged eagle]

ye in 5e there really isn't a necromancer class the closest things are subclasses/domains so necromancer wizard and death domain cleric

[glacial sphinx]

undead or undying warlock is somewhat related I guess. I think it makes a lot of sense to assume that if there is going to be necromancy it'll be on the warlock class. Since that's the dark themed caster

[abstract swallow]

to clarify, Necromancy hasn't been locked to/away from classes (outside of specialization) in D&D for a long time
it's been a literal school of magic the vast majority clerics and wizards can freely access

[rigid prawn]

Raising the dead is only 1 aspect of necromancy. Spells like toll the dead or spare the dying(through pact of the tome) are both spell that’s manipulate death and are available to warlocks as well. Summons aren’t guaranteed for players, so we might only get to see necromancy through these other aspects potentially. That being said Animate Dead could just be given to the warlock anyway since there is no reason they shouldn’t have that spell imo lol

[reef spindle]

What other classes are you expecting to be added?

[meager jasper]

While yes, it is only one aspect of necromancy, it's its entire identity that it's the school of summoning and controlling the undead tbh. If you're not going to let the player do that, you shouldn't add necromancy at all.

I remember V:Rising baiting me with that shit and having death themed magic but it's literally just the same as all their other types of magic. Nobody wants death flavoured fireballs and lightning flavoured fireballs and life flavoured fireballs and light flavoured fireballs. That's lazy.

[abstract swallow]

Warlock, Druid, and anything else will have to wait until after Class Trainer drops since we don't know what will be relegated to subclasses/archetypes
Warlock and Druid existing does make Paladin a nice final class, fitting with 'niches of three'

[meager jasper]

Same with druid to be honest. If they end up bringing in the druid as being just a different kind of wizard rather than a shapeshifter or animal-controller or something then it's just worthless and shouldn't be added in the first place.

[rugged eagle]

There was a class list dropped a while ago if I remember they're adding artificer,sorcerer,druid,paladin and ofc warlock

[meager jasper]

Artificer...? vietnam flashbacks to red musket-bearing skeletons

[rugged eagle]

Can't wait to snipe rat rogues with my musket

[meager jasper]

We heard you liked the xbow skellymen so we added a musket, which because it's an artifcer weapon deals magic damage that bypasses armor, and one-shots barbs and fighters when they hit the chest.

[rugged eagle]

Sounds based to me they better add a blunderbuss along with it

[summer drift]

I wouldn't complain about giving necromancy spells to wizards instead

Reviving undead sounds like a good way to troll people

[meager jasper]

I don't care who gets necromancy, but I'd like to see it. I don't think it's exceptionally OP either to be honest. We've already seen what bards are capable of with turning monsters on other players. It's just not that threatening.

As long as they can't summon red skellies or champions or something like that.

[abstract swallow]

Any sort of summoning ought to be scaled to the current floor. Otherwise it'll just trivialize content up to a point, and be completely useless after.

[summer drift]

I agree. We shouldn't try to mimick D&D too much in my opinion, too many classes are essentially clones of another

[abstract swallow]

It doesn't help that most D&D classes were just... kits of other classes in the first place.

[rugged eagle]

Could just handle it how Barony does and have the summons scale as you or they kill things to naturally give that sort of curve

[meager jasper]

Did this wizard just call me a nerd?

[abstract swallow]

I could see that working, especially if it counts party member kills, and it doesn't have to be exclusive with depth-based scaling.

[rugged eagle]

They already have an exp system in the game to use for this so it'd make sense

[summer drift]

I think being able to revive a miniboss or red/black skeletons is a lot of utility value for a revive undead spell. If it were only normal skeletons you'd need to be able to revive multiple for it to be on the same strength as magic missile imo

[abstract swallow]

I just want to play raid boss for hapless noobs in Low Roller
I'll even bring in gold bags for them to loot off me
and taunt them in VOIP with WC3 unit lines

[rugged eagle]

Reviving a skele champion would let you terrorize the goblin caves lol

[summer drift]

Lol except the champion may end up attacking you as well. If the spell made it only target other players it would be op

[abstract swallow]

to be fair, you don't need to revive the champ to let him do that

[rugged eagle]

Let me revive cave troll

[meager jasper]

"I think this incredibly OP thing would add a lot of utility..." I mean I guess strictly speaking you're right.

[summer drift]

Imagine killing the cave troll against the door and reviving him outside of his chamber or something 😂 Let him go wild

[rugged eagle]

Revive the cave troll grab some popcorn and watch the kill feed

[summer drift]

That means you'd have to find a way to kill it first, so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rugged eagle]

If naked rogues can kill the cave troll I'm sure the necromancers will figure it out

[summer drift]

I wish we could have reactions in this channel so bad. I just want to throw my 😂s everywhere

[rugged eagle]

Yeah why are they even disabled

[summer drift]

Ikr killjoy mods

[meager jasper]

I'd take a basic summon skelly spell. Maybe a much weaker, spammable zombie.

Actually reanimating things in the map is eh to me.

[rugged eagle]

I really doubt summoning is gonna be added because of how jank ai and collision is

[meager jasper]

It'd take a fair chunk of time, but there's no real reason it couldn't be added other than as a matter of priorities.

[summer drift]

lol Gray

[rugged eagle]

Fair

[summer drift]

I think the spell wouldn't be that hard to implement. Just make Raise Dead and have it revive a mob on your crosshair at x distance. They would act with their normal animating animation and target anyone including the caster, so you can't just spam it willy nilly

I would imagine something like "corpse = skeleton argument(animating)" and let it act like a completely new mob or something

[meager jasper]

Nobody is going to use a spell that reanimates hostiles. And that sucks.

[summer drift]

As a bard main I can tell you that you grossly underestimate the need for people to troll others
If you gave me that spell I'd probably go wizard main again 😂

[meager jasper]

"Oh I could throw a fireball at this fighter at this fighter and kill him or I can add an additional wildcard enemy to the fight, even if it's a weak one."

Yeah troll-ability isn't a good measure of whether something is balanced or interesting. I don't really want random toxic shit in the game because some nerd thinks its fun tbh.

[dusky kernel]

What if it was stronger when revived and had a life timer?
Probably forget cast range and just let it be LoS

[summer drift]

Revive a red xbow skeleton they just killed then turn invisible and run away. If they die = profit

[spice zephyr]

I would start maining wizard just for the reason of going goblin caves and reanimating the death beetles

[meager jasper]

This. We literally just need something that lets us summon basic undead and has it follow us around, and may or may not have a duration.

[reef spindle]

What if warlock had healing but there would be a chance to deal dmg and not heal?

[meager jasper]

They should be fixed imo, rather than whatever you reanimate. Summoning rather than direct reanimation is way easier to balance.

[summer drift]

Just give the wizard more weapons and you'd have a warlock

[rugged eagle]

Don't get me wrong I want summoning to be added even if it was the shittiest ability in the game I'd still use it because summoning is based

[summer drift]

💯

People always talking shit about meta, we should be talking about fun factor. If something is too strong to the point people play only that, then it shouldn't be so strong (or other things should be made stronger)

[rugged eagle]

That's the part I appreciate about the game is they're prioritizing fun over absolute balance it does lead to bs like double jump but I can deal with that if we get based summoning

[summer drift]

I always want to run melee wizards but the last playtest was pretty garbage for wizards in general. Dagger and orb combo was pretty bad

[rugged eagle]

KenKnobi ran crystal sword ignite instead and it looked really strong

[abstract swallow]

Ken could run staff melee and make it look good, man's a legend

[meager jasper]

While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't agree. I don't want an icebolt tier "summon spider mummy"

[summer drift]

The crystal sword is just so slow, it sucks more than a simple dagger

[abstract swallow]

bro that's even better
I would be summoning those things behind every single door in the game to ruin people's days

[rugged eagle]

It's moveset is smooth as hell I wish fighters could use it properly

[summer drift]

That's the spirit 😂

[rugged eagle]

Ye he was running it in groups and would haste, invis, ignite and dive the backline with it basically cosplaying rogue

[meager jasper]

Spider mummies are a non-threat to every class in the game, what're you talkin' about? Throwing a pot of them out there, now that's the real troll shit.

[spice zephyr]

imagine casting invisibility, waiting for someone to destroy the pot of spiders nearby and then continue casting spawn spider mummy from a dark crevice

[summer drift]

Crystal swords need a buff

[rugged eagle]

Spider mummy is the most annoying mob in the game I would absolutely take that spell lol

[meager jasper]

Nothing sucks fun out of a cool thing faster than it being shit

[summer drift]

He's a hater. I understand, though

[spice zephyr]

ok let's just all agree to give the spiders wings

[meager jasper]

I just said "ice bolt tier" I didn't say it could only be icebolt tier.

[abstract swallow]

just make the flourishes for attack spells an attack themselves #d-and-d-suggestions message

[rugged eagle]

Holy shit that's actually a fantastic idea

[meager jasper]

If the only necromancy spell we get is a ritual-long 1-at-a-time spider that lasts 30 seconds tops, that would be an example of a spell I would never use. That's ice bolt.

[spice zephyr]

imagine casting a spell, someone rushes you, you hit them with your sword and finish casting, the enemy gets blown apart and so do you, absolutely brilliant

[abstract swallow]

bonking a dude in the face because my stick's zap touched him a microsecond early is mega-lame
instead, let me clear PvE faster by stabbing a dude in the face with an icebolt at the same time, and actually threaten people with close-range casting

[rugged eagle]

Crystal sword + zap you're basically making an attack with extra damage

[meager jasper]

Icebolt is a spell nobody uses and is strictly inferior in every way to zap, yes.

[rugged eagle]

Crystal sword should def get that but idk if it would make staff worth still since its bonks do like 5 damage lol

[spice zephyr]

I think we all need a spell which is a silent cast, that plays a specific sound at the spot you aim that

[meager jasper]

The only thing it theoretically has is the ability to headshot. So yeah, okay, if you've got good aim, have at it.

[abstract swallow]

I've heard great things about Icebolt, especially in 10spell where you can zone with it essentially for free
iirc they need to update its description to match the buff though, don't they?

[rugged eagle]

Minor illusion?

[meager jasper]

"I've heard great things about this niche build nobody actually uses but one guy I heard about trying it out in wizard chat" Y'all say the weirdest shit about things as if they're authoritative.

[abstract swallow]

10spell/instant cast aren't niche memebuilds now that Resting is a thing, especially with Clarities also existing

[summer drift]

Damn that's really cool. Could also include spell effects stacking on your weapon like in similar games; if you cast a fireball spell the sword gets a minor fire buff on its next attack

[rugged eagle]

I wouldn't take ice bolt over any spell in 5 spell but for 10 spell sure. That's probably an issue with wizard spell variety more then anything though

[spice zephyr]

I hate clarity potions, I hate clarity potions,I hate clarity potions, I hate clarity potions,I hate clarity potions, I hate clarity potions,I hate clarity potions, I hate clarity potions,

[summer drift]

I feel like meditate as a skill shouldn't have ever existed

[meager jasper]

All the viable spells comfortably fit within a 10-spell so it doesn't really matter. If I had the ability to get 1 cast of every spell in the game, I'd probably cycle through ice bolt at one point or another.

[rugged eagle]

I stockpiled up so many clarity potions that nobody wanted to buy Wizards need to be enlightened by 10 spell superiority

[summer drift]

I actually ran 10-spell on playtest 4. I never ran out as long as I didn't get into more than 2 pvp fights in a game

Not everything is about spamming fireballs. Sometimes cover fire was a pretty strong strategy

[rugged eagle]

Might be wrong but zap is pretty bad into high will because of debuff reduction so in that case ice bolt would do more damage right?

[abstract swallow]

yeah, not having to actually HIT with icebolt as one of your 2~3 committed damage slots is such a big difference
just back down a hallway and casually toss a 43 damage brick behind you that sets up for a very free followup if it lands

[rugged eagle]

I just want more wizard spells so sick of the current selection when there are all these awesome D&D spells to take inspiration from

[meager jasper]

It's a projectile, which is a downside. It does less damage because it doesn't double-dip, which is a downside. There's no situation I wouldn't rather have twice as many zaps as zap and ice bolt. Unless I was literally being handed a free headshot or something by someone standing still

Magic damage bonuses apply both to the spell and its dot of burn

[rugged eagle]

Oh wait zap and ice bolt deal the exact same damage? Wtf swear ice bolt was more then 20

[abstract swallow]

double dipping is nice, but with how Debuff Duration currently works DoTs blow
which, y'know, I'll take over the days of a single Zap killing a fullplate fighter

[meager jasper]

Chill is terrible.

I've tested it with a rogue buddy, since it works fully in the lobby. It's not slow enough to actually stop you being chased by the only class that's really going to do so.

[abstract swallow]

it's a nice effect, but it's too short to do anything meaningful-- even the slowest weapons in the game, which it would work best against, would have the effect expire before they finish their first attack

[meager jasper]

It lasts for a tiny fraction of time and doesn't actually slow much down at all. You're just theorizing. Show me an instance where it matters.

[rugged eagle]

Agreed when I used it during PT4 I barely even noticed the slow

[meager jasper]

"It's a really big deal". Show me a video.

[spice zephyr]

sir we cannot upload videos in this channel

[meager jasper]

You're talking nonsense. No fighter is losing a fight based on a brief one second of chill. They'll lose the fight based on the icebolt that hit them upside the head, sure, but not that.

Whereas a zap, hitscans and burns for more reliable damage, which is multiplied twice against most fighters because they have a negative to their magic resist, by the way.

Sure, if you can perfectly land headshots on a dodging fighter with a slow moving projectile, by all means, I'm sure you're a master wizard who never loses his gear ever. The rest of us will continue to not use a hand crossbow when we can use a pistol with incendiary ammo.

[summer drift]

Don{t you all think the spell Slow should last more than a second? It's pretty garbage unless you're using to support someone else, and even then it's niche

[pine comet]

Slow and bind 🗿

[summer drift]

Haste is way better and you could always be doing damage instead of casting Slow. I've only ever used it on mobs

[rugged eagle]

Slow is for 2.5s but haste will always be better because of how long the duration is slow is great for setting up a fat magic missiles though

[summer drift]

By the time you finish casting magic missile they'll be moving at normal speed again, or they'll have a sword up your gut
(I'll be honest I never tried that combo)

[rugged eagle]

You should try it but there is not much room to slot slow if you're running 5 slot

[spare meadow]

I think you should release early access today

[granite plinth]

I agree with Nick

[patent mauve]

Bind should last for 1.5 seconds but also the cast time should be doubled.

[olive kettle]

no

[patent mauve]

When you bind a cleric for .75s with -60% debuff duration

[olive kettle]

long bind with long cast time is called earhquake

[abstract swallow]

I prefer the permanent bind, it's called Judgement
they stop moving for good after you use it

[patent mauve]

And are slowed if they managed to survive the nuclear bomb

[abstract swallow]

Judgement really does need to get changed to a DoT, it can keep the damage just let me heal through it and let softer classes shrug it off with DD

[reef spindle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1068515375915999293/1108100606658347090/obraz.png
How kill count changed from last test

[patent mauve]

Id prefer it be a cone in front of the cleric that spreads the damage across all that are in range. Like the lich purple and blue rings. Makes it less spamable in cramp corners where cleric comps shine. Also it can miss entirely and go on CD.

[rugged eagle]

Wizard

[reef spindle]

at least wizard is on positive
but only 0,04

[abstract swallow]

too much overlap with Purification imo, also kinda cripples its identity as a backline FAF

[rugged eagle]

Something is wrong when your play rate is almost the same as the new unfinished laughably underpowered class

[patent mauve]

A cone and a circle are different entirely.

[reef spindle]

ranger was slightly worse
rogue had the biggest boost to kills

[rugged eagle]

Fighter chads just keep on winning though

[reef spindle]

well, cleric aswell huge kill ratio compared to test before

[patent mauve]

You can already pretend to cast judgment with purification, I only ran purification and acted like it was judgement to scare people into backing up.

[abstract swallow]

play stats were SUPER skewed this time around thanks to Bard existing

[reef spindle]

bard 0,24 kill ratio

[patent mauve]

Clerics we're baller in PT5

[reef spindle]

fighter 1,77 to barbarians 1,37
barbarians counter wizard with 0,56

[rugged eagle]

It should be 0 who tf was dying to bards

[reef spindle]

wizards

[patent mauve]

The guy who spent 10k gold to kit his Bard out xD.

[rugged eagle]

Spend 10k on bard so you can play your 4 useless songs better

[reef spindle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1068515375915999293/1108103752759656618/obraz.png

I think this shows how barb doesn't need those + bonus dmg talents as he performed as good as before nerfs
barb isn't lacking dmg

[rugged eagle]

I don't know if I should be thankful that rogue double jump existed because it drew everyone away from barb

Worst timeline where PT5 comes around and everyone is playing achilles barb

[reef spindle]

people didn't know about achilles strike being broken

[abstract swallow]

people are very, very stupid
people were saying that franc axes were nerfed into uselessness the entire playtest

[reef spindle]

franc axes are the best melee in game

[tawny lagoon]

They were nerfed if we don´t count achilles, and people probably though the talent was not worth it... coupled with only 5 days of playtest, and people missed the combo

[abstract swallow]

"they were nerfed"
oh no now it sometimes take 3 axes instead of 2 to bodyshot every non-frontliner in the game to death

[worldly fern]

Yeah, as you can see by the stats, barbs were op, the over 1.7 on fighers and rogues is just an illusion. Keep crying on barbs badger

[abstract swallow]

I don't know why you single me out for your barbcope but I'm all for it

[ebon valve]

I hope they keep the bards kd ratio in the meme worthy numbers! We don’t need it to become another fighter! It should keep its character! Maybe get some more interesting and useful songs!

[worldly fern]

Because the issue isn't barbs. is that barb synergies with wizard and cleric buffs. But lets just ignore that and keep calling for nerfs on barb

[abstract swallow]

I mean it should at least have a similar KDR to Clerics, if not higher because they're more offensive and ranged

[sharp gorge]

what was the weapon for barbs

and the best perks

[abstract swallow]

the issue with Barbs is that they're the worst designed class in the game and synergize incredibly well with the worst aspects of the playtests' balance (damage stacking and rarity scaling)
everyone works well with buffs, there's nothing special about Barb in that regard except that he can stretch doublebubble with Roar's debuff

[worldly fern]

Except you are wrong. The worst one in design is the fighter. Barb is probably the least dependant on stats than any other class. And by far the one that synergizes the best with mov speed buffs, because barb whole gimmick is win trades and as long as you can keep space between you and the barb the barb is gonna get poked to dead

[abstract swallow]

I won't deny that Fighter is poorly designed, but having 0 flavor is a far cry from being a statbloated monstrosity with his entire kit in a mandatory skill.

[worldly fern]

And how do you suggest to change that? Not just by removing the barbarian class ofc

[ebon valve]

Bard should have character to the ability’s!! Wild consepts for bard songs would be, •song of darkness, turns of lights temporary! Or tune of mimics! Turns everything interactive in area into mimics!! Give him a set of tools that is genuinely fundamentally different from clerk/fighter

[lone crescent]

Or maybe just give him actual buffs for the team and himself?

[summer drift]

I still think fighter and barbs are too similar. Don't add any more clone classes

Just give them more depth and subclasses and let people customize how they want. I want my fricking strength melee wizards

[abstract swallow]

honestly he needs Class Trainer/the replacement of the Perk & Skill system just as much as Fighter does
Rage needs to be unpacked into passives and a selection of rages rather than putting ALL of his mobility and scaling into a mandatory button, his damage bonuses need to be swapped for non-direct-number buffs like attack speed or reduced slowdown during combo'd attacks, and his free survivability needs to be tuned/put back in his gear (but that goes back to issues with rarity scaling being especially bad for armor)
I like Barbarian, I'm okay with it being straightforward, and I want him to be better

[summer drift]

I like those ideas ^

[reef spindle]

damn, it is hard to get cinquedea dagger screenshot from dd2 by asking people
I wanted to see how it looks as it may be good for our warlock as new dagger type

[warped coral]

Is it just me, or should the maps be randomly generated? like different rooms can be added to fit interchangeably with one another, so that things and maps can feel a little more fresh and/or fun every game for casual players(I think this change would be detrimental to high roller players as it could affect things like knowing where you can revive teammates or just to find blessings/"totems")

[rugged eagle]

I'd rather they manually craft the maps and put alot of detail and little secrets into them since we are playing a dungeon diving game. Kinda takes the magic out of it a bit if each map is just churned out procedurally.

[ebon valve]

Maybe one room in inferno could be randomly generated !

[olive kettle]

as far as I remember procedural generation is not planned for full release but mob spawns will be varied

[warped coral]

dang

Maybe the idea could still be salvaged by randomizing the amount of loot-ables and furniture around the room secrets could and would still be triggered the same way but placed in different places, for example the book that opens the bookshelf to reveal a chest could be moved around

[rugged eagle]

Yeah that sounds alot more reasonable

[glacial walrus]

they could also make small map changes / move modules around between seasons. I noticed some of that from pt4->5, like traps that I ran into cuz they weren't there before

[warped coral]

That's also a good idea, I forgot to mention traps

[rugged eagle]

Ye traps could be moved around so people don't just memorize all of them

[compact barn]

They talked about procedural maps in one of the qa's at some point. Think it was maybe when they chatted with Pestily? They ended up scrapping it cuz it was big bad lol

[abstract swallow]

Yeah, they said they weren't any good at it, but it's a neat idea.
Once the game is complete I could totally see them doing a semi-randomized dungeon as a timed gamemode or something, the game has a strong framework that would support it.

[compact barn]

Yeah something that's not a main core part of the game but an event style thing could be cool

[rugged eagle]

dark and darker chalice dungeons?

[cyan nymph]

i could see modular randomization. like legos just getting scrambled around and put together differently.

[worldly fern]

I like that idea. In fact, moving stats from the class to gear will solve a lot of balance across a lot of classes atm

[rancid pebble]

What do the lads in here think about DaD probably having a weight system?

[real trellis]

hate

[rancid pebble]

I would hate it too, but it seems like they want to add it

Idk why they would, maybe they know more than us and for the longevity of the game it would be needed but it just seems like an anti-fun mechanic (the worst kind)

[abstract swallow]

seems like a necessity, would be good for the game's balance and economy, and would make equipment selection more meaningful (or at least help alleviate some of the issues we have with armor/heavy weapons/dual wielding and the naked meta right now)
it doesn't help that with no real weight system, Wizards and Rangers are shafted with like half their points in an attribute that scales 1.5 stats

[hasty vigil]

weight might be how they are planning to balance the whole fighter reaching 95% resist thing

[gilded ether]

This game not just about pvp, weight, food, limited bag spaces, injuries, sickness, are all good ideas imo

[crimson flax]

yeah we should add a four humors gauge so you have to balance your bile, urine, blood, and fecal matter.

[strong cedar]

This isn’t supposed to be a hardcore survival game, why would you want food and sickness??

[graceful frost]

get help

[sullen gulch]

Real masochist over here

[glacial sphinx]

Unnecessary and probably mostly annoying

[somber wind]

I would stop playing if we had a weight system in addition to slots.

[wary junco]

Weightsystem would be actively crippling most classes so i hope they will never introduce it. Just nerf the fighter or the % dmg Reduction on items

[somber wind]

Honestly they could just make it so there is Backpacks, size of backpack affects movement speed but not the contents of the backpack with the current size having no effect on movement speed and bigger bags decreasing movement speed (smaller bags could also exist for mildly increasing it).

[wary junco]

I dont think that any kind of movement penalty for loot is a very bad idea. Like fighters are already super slow... they would be slower as a snail just because of the loot in his inventory. Which basicly limits fighter in ever gaining money if they make the decision to run full plate

[somber wind]

The idea is that you wouldn't have any penalty if you played exactly as you do now but if you wanted to be a loot hoarder you could get a bigger bag and make yourself slower and if you're willing to sacrifice loot you could get a smaller bag and move faster.

[wary junco]

Yeah okay if they give us addtional bags that take the cloak slot that would be fine

[somber wind]

We already have 2 additional bag slots on the UI that aren't usable.

https://i.imgur.com/0as90Nn.png

We also have a primary bag slot and belt type slots

[wary junco]

Yeah but adding a weightsystem in generel is a very bad idea. Atleast how it is done in most games... since you kinda have to connect it to a stat that some classes barely have any of it. And other classes can just take double the amount of other classes just because they have more of that stat

[somber wind]

Oh yeah having a weight system would be horrible, this would be an alterative to balance additional slots since they very much want backpacks.

[wary junco]

It would make the entire classes completly unbalanced

[somber wind]

It'd just ruin the game entirely (weight).

[wary junco]

Just a tip from me... just dont be a lootgoblin and make intelligent decisionmaking when it comes to loot

[somber wind]

Either the weight system gets invalidated easily and there's no point in it existing or it becomes a giant divide between players with boosted weight capacity via gear being able to bring gear swaps and many potions.

It'd also drastically increase the time you're in "early game" before even midgame. The point in time where you have to suicide run for awhile.

[wary junco]

It would be quite funny though with additonal lootbags. I can already see the cleric beeing the horse that carrys atleast 4 bags around to gather all the loot while his teammates kill everyone on the map and everynow and then come back to the cleric to drop loot and get buffed

[glacial sphinx]

It incentivizes camping, weird tactics like emptying your bag as you run after someone. And it punishes you for doing whats actually fun: grabbing as much treasure and valuable loot as you can before getting out.

[somber wind]

yeah healers would be perfectly fine lol

[somber wind]

Exactly, it'd actually become really toxic how people would play.

[glacial sphinx]

How is it fun to be a loot carrying cleric though while other people are playing the game and fighting people, it just doesn't improve the general experience.

[wary junco]

Yeah i thought about that too gives me dayZ vibes where dropping your bag in a bush is efficient to have more stamina for the fight

[somber wind]

In a way it also buffs Rogue lol

Players are more stationary so they're easier to kill and manipulate.

[wary junco]

Trust me it wouldnt be fun for the cleric, all he does is buffing beeing super slow and carrying the loot around. I would never do that i'd actualy like to play the game

[somber wind]

As well as with rogues double jump, just drop your loot where it's hard to get to and go back to it when you want it.

[wary junco]

Yeah you could litterly exploit spaces to hoard in

[somber wind]

Poison attrition rogue would become significantly stronger.

Run in, tag for abit of poison then run out. People becoming more stationary due to loot stashes and/or weight of loot would cause this.

Everyone eventually runs out of healing.

[wary junco]

Yeah imagine losing mobility in a game where mobility decides about life and death

[somber wind]

Mix this with Wrist Crossbows and Rogue being fast and you have Rogues picking on all the other classes if there is a weight system. Rogue wont need to carry their loot, they'll just make loot nests.

Since they can get up high or into weird places to leave their loot.

[wary junco]

Exactly litterly like a bird collecting shiny things in its nest

[somber wind]

Exactly.

Weight can only do bad things to the game.

[wary junco]

Besides it making the game kn generel worse it would completly make entire playstyles unplayable that were implemented by the devs

It would effectivly kill of any kind of high weight armor or weapons

[somber wind]

Thoughts on this?

* There is a Standard Pool of Rollable Effects for Items (as there is now).
* Each Dungeon has it's own additional pool of Rollable Effects for Items.

This would allow Dungeons to introduce new effects without damaging the game by flooding effect pools and making it harder to get the gear you want.

This would also allow new Dungeons to be introduced without introducing new effects by making it so the new Dungeon provides never before possible combinations of effects. This would make it so there wasn't a need to introduce new effects with every dungeon while still producing hype for a new dungeon.```

[wary junco]

It is controversial. Good for farming specific Equipment, but bad if ppl want to keep the randomness

[somber wind]

The idea would be to allow for new modifiers to be added to the game. All of the existing modifiers would exist on the Standard Pool. This is LESS to produce more predictability and more to make it so the game's modifier pool doesn't become bloated and horrible or even not expand upon it's existing modifiers.

[glacial sphinx]

Well, im not sure about it because without this system anyone can play the dungeon they like and have a chance of the loot they like. With this system you might be forced to play a dungeon you don't like to get a piece of loot you want.
You could experiment with it on a few pieces and having those pieces maybe drop in 2 different dungeons rather than just one.

For the added mods/bloat argument I can sorta see it, but then I also am not 100% sure the game needs a ridiculous amount of different weapon types and mods in the first place.

[somber wind]

I don't think it does either but I also think it needs more and I would like to see more in general. The trading post also provides access to items, so if for example you dislike bossing you can still earn money and get Unique items and never boss.

[abstract swallow]

The biggest issue with this is that it heavily skews class participation in these regions based on the effects available.

[spice zephyr]

sounds like it would result in meta locations leading to empty queues in other locations

[molten copper]

Yeah I don't see that being a great solution for anything really. You'd either segment which classes want to go to which dungeons, or one set of rollable effects is just better meta wise and one dungeon get ignored completely.

[astral vortex]

How about adding a cool down to the double jump

[compact barn]

Couple weight haters in here lol.

Weight system would likely end up being fine. Put a movement debuff on characters actively dropping items while moving.

[robust bison]

personnally i dopn't think about a weight system on this game but more on how much ur inventory is full

[olive kettle]

I love getting camped at portal while carrying a bag of bricks while the campers have empty inventories

[abstract swallow]

Unequipping items requiring a small 'equip item' interaction would do fine, it would make a meaningful difference between someone ready for a fight and someone caught looting/unaware.
Throwing off a heavy bag before a fight just makes sense, anyone who has been in so much as a schoolyard brawl can attest to that.

[olive kettle]

you can do it in tarkov but most people dont bother

[abstract swallow]

I try not to reference T*rkov because it's an intentionally bad game

[compact barn]

And everyone in tarkov that’s any good throws their heavy bag before a fight still anyways

[abstract swallow]

Or they learn that autismal circlestrafe shit, I swear they went out of their way to make Inertia as terrible and exploitable as possible.

[compact barn]

I understand the idea that it’ll create discrepancies with some classes having better movement more readily with the weight system but we already have that issue so

[compact barn]

Yeah it’s pretty goofy in that game now lol

[vocal lodge]

WHEN IS DARK AND DARKER NEXT PT OR EA. CANT TAKE IT ANYMOREEEEE

[abstract swallow]

Since we can see that (at least the original draft of) weight is separated into 3 bars, I actually think it'd normalize movement speed between classes.
If that first bar is no movement speed penalties, people in light gear are going to be a lot closer to 300MS more often than people with (unmitigated?) heavy weapons and/or armor.

Opting to wear light or mixed armor to manage Weight instead of only going for pure plate AR-stacking or the armor itself being completely meaningless outside of innate stats would be much, much more interesting to work around, especially once we get Class Trainer to potentially deepen armor proficiencies and specializations.

[compact barn]

I agree having more incentive to not wear armor just to stack reduction would be good and this would help with that.

[rancid pebble]

I trust these devs unlike any other, so even if they added weight system it probably would be intuitive and not too hindering, but because of the new bolt/arrow system they have to add a quiver or something for ranger, and then fighter has to use its inventory slot. Maybe the cape slot could be for a quiver/cape/ or a back pack?

[last heron]

Anyone know, can I fight with shield and bare second hand?

[olive kettle]

unequip weapon

[rigid prawn]

A simple way to add weight without it being overwhelming is only applying weight to worn gear. The gems and other treasure in your inventory would be weightless. Pair that with badgers described system of tier based weight we would see the removal of naked meta along with giving trade off with certain gear combinations. Having an interaction on equipping that varies with the difficulty of putting it on (chest piece is slower than boots etc) would prevent hot swapping gear on the fly and having a weapon for every situation.

Could play around with the idea of gear in inventory also playing to your total weight to prevent someone from having that sneaky plate armor set in their inv for when they need the AR, but doing this would also make looting gear more thoughtful since you don’t want to weigh yourself with low tier garbage or bad rolls.

[glacial sphinx]

I mean that already exists, its the movement speed reduction which is currently higher on heavy armor than light armor.

[compact barn]

And it's not good enough since we still only see plate stacking fighters right? Adding a weight system that might further penalize plate armor stacking wouldn't be a bad thing. But it could also just render being an actual "tank" worthless since if you can't even move in encounters then you're worthless lol

[glacial sphinx]

Is weight going to do anything else than reduce movement speed in your view? Btw I don't agree with your premise that we only see armor stacking fighters, but aside from that.

[compact barn]

I assumed weight in this game would reduce movespeed and action speed. Also I don't mind that you don't agree lol. Outside goblin caves you don't see anyone using less than full plate on fighters

[olive kettle]

yes you do

[compact barn]

Ok well I sure as hell didn't lol. Literally ever in crypts. I saw timmies and regal gambesons in goblin caves and timmies and plate armor in crypts and high roller

[rigid prawn]

Light armor slayer builds were fairly common, fighter was in a really good spot last PT and if it wasn’t for the rogue buffs would have by far been the most broken class that patch

[glacial sphinx]

For one I dont think that many people go for plate boots over other options for example when they have the choice. And many play a little lighter than max armor in general. Apart from that about the action speed part I'm not sure that is planned. If theres been some hinting on that I guess i'd like to see it but otherwise it doesnt make much sense to talk about a weight system without agreeing on exactly what it is.

[compact barn]

Yeah that's a fair point. They haven't really talked about very much relating to the weight system and any intentions so at this point I suppose it's pretty moot. We're lucky tho that Ironmace will put things in the game and then walk them back if they're poorly received or hurt the game. They even managed to do that during a torrented playtest so guess we'll see how they implement it in the future, or if they do, then be able to actually discuss if it's a worthwhile mechanic in the game

[glacial sphinx]

yeah do agree that if they want to try out a system like that they should have the chance to

[feral rock]

I think ironmace want to keep dark and darker kinda simplistic. And I think weight system would overcomplicate stuff more than needed and not be a great addition

[rancid pebble]

they stated they want to add weight system several times, and it is already implemented in the games ui. They have their easons im sure

[summer drift]

An expensive quiver actually sounds like decent balance to being able to carry more arrows. Kinda like a coin pouch

[abstract swallow]

iirc Resourcefulness is meant to give you bonus slots to equip bags and quickslot items (and weapons?), so Quivers just being a normal bag after they add the weight system is 100% reasonable
(and I'm certain that they were testing weight/bags in the build PT5 was based on, since it explains the original 10 arrow stack cap and Wizard receiving an inexplicable stat change that pumped his Resourcefulness)

[soft finch]

I usually went for plate boots, heavy leather leggings and riveted gloves at white/Grey tier because that total of +3 strength is juicy

[abstract swallow]

plate boots are a budget cleric option, I rarely ever saw Fighter use them-- nor would I ever suggest they do unless you stumble upon a very high-rarity pair with useful stats
that said, they're better than taking gauntlets, which is the true bozo move

[lone crescent]

If they make any kind of weight system they should remove any movement penalty from gear

This means a player naked (or almost naked) could run fast af while a feared player with loot is slow af, i hate the idea

[abstract swallow]

🤝
yes, please, for the love of god replace this awful static -MS system with a real gear weight/carrying capacity system

[olive kettle]

whats the difference between static ms and gear weight 🤨

[lone crescent]

If the weight works only for equipment then movement speed penalty is the same thing, if it works for inventory too that's just a terible mechanic

[abstract swallow]

hasty wording on my part, but if gear weight were an interactable mechanic you could mitigate it with investment/gear around your class or statline's weight limitations to fine tune your playstyle

[lone crescent]

You can mitigate -MS with agility

[abstract swallow]

weight for looting makes a lot of sense if they want to expand the inventory mechanics, we know bags are a big part of the intended vision of the game (carrying multiple packs, taking others' backpacks, etc)

[glacial sphinx]

You can mitigate it with gear right now

[lone crescent]

They never said bags are intended, they just said they will probably try to add them

[abstract swallow]

you can manage your movement speed, that's not the same thing as gear encumbrance being a mechanic you can interact with

[lone crescent]

I'd hate to being forced to ratting when i have a lot of gear on me

And this game with the zone forces you to fight anyway, it just doesn't work imho

[abstract swallow]

Just... put the loot down? You don't have to take everything of value or keep it on your person at all times, especially if it isn't space/weight efficient.
If you want it that bad, then in a system where you can overencumber/take multiple containers, you could just stash the whole bag somewhere and go back for it once you've secured a portal.

I've done plenty of stashing as a solo Ranger in HR since my traps and ammo took up so much space, I'd strip a kill down and hide the gear in a box or something, then come back for it later once I had an exit secured.

[glacial sphinx]

dnno it just sounds really bad to me. grabbing all the treasure you can is the fun part of the game. Looting peoples candy and good treasure and getting a ton of gold selling it all. Having to drop half of it to be viable in pvp is terrible

[lone crescent]

No matter how you will put it, weight is just a mechanic i don't like, in any game i always prefer inventory space

And devs never confirmednweight to be inplemented, just that they want to try, maybe it will be added for a month then removed

[glacial sphinx]

And stashing stuff in the level to grab again later sounds extremely clunky and annoying. I guess they might try it but I also think theres a reason most weight suggestions are overwhelmingly downvoted

[lone crescent]

Or it will be scrapped with internal tests, or they will make some kind of test servers for us to try new mechanic

[abstract swallow]

I dunno, that's the opposite of what I enjoy about the game
the resource management and dungeon mastery are what sets this game apart, not it being a janky FPS version of an ARPG loot treadmill

[lone crescent]

Some classes with some builds will not be viable even in pve with weight

[abstract swallow]

it's possible, the kvetching over F1/Blue Crypts getting such a quick response was certainly disheartening
if it becomes a trend then this game will have all its edges sanded off in short order

[abstract swallow]

this is pure projection dude, c'mon
it's one thing to cope and say it hasn't been confirmed and it'll just get removed if you don't like it, but don't just say IM is incompetent and the very concept will ruin balance/fun/the game

[lone crescent]

Test servers seems to be the best solution to test these kind of things and get feedback, maybe with increased loot to encourage playing.

Obviously you can't carry your progress from test server to normal

[abstract swallow]

no disagreement there, I'd much rather see a more finely tuned version of ANY mechanic, but especially one that'll ruffle feathers, be the version that the larger playerbase sees

[lone crescent]

I never said they are incompetent, they still don't know what direction the game will take and they will test a bunch of stuff in the future, we played an alpha

[olive kettle]

they can already just add some weight thresholds for ms penalties ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[glacial sphinx]

Think theres a ton of stuff to try that would have higher priority than implementing one of the most downvoted things of all though

[lone crescent]

If they add weight i guess full agility builds will be meta

[abstract swallow]

it's not a particularly complicated mechanic to add, just needs a lot of numbers-tuning since it's like 3 systems interacting at once (STR/RSC scaling your carryweight, item/equipped item weight values, inventory sizes & equipslots)

[compact barn]

They do seem to have a rather massive roadmap at this point honestly lol. But if weight is on their radar they'll wanna add it sooner than later since it'll end up being a core component to the design of characters/classes and such

[abstract swallow]

movespeed is already the godstat of this game, the only reason you don't see more people going pure %PDR and +Action/Movement speed is because damage stacking is almost exponentially efficient and most defenses don't scale whatsoever

[glacial sphinx]

They just need to reduce the amount of movement speed you can gain from gear a bit. I don't think weight creates some new interesting gameplay or solves any pertinent problem that currently exists that you can't solve in a much simpler way.

[abstract swallow]

I actually strongly disagree, 3 of the classes (Ranger, Wizard, Fighter) are currently stuck in a hard-nerfed state because Resourcefulness and its associated inventory mechanics aren't in the game yet
fleshing out at least a framework for inventory mechanics for EA/PT6 is probably the single most important step they can take, because it informs a lot of the developments going forward

[glacial sphinx]

Ranger is one of the best classes in the game if not the best, fighter is top tier. Wizards weakness can be solved without a single change to resourcefulness so I don't really agree.

[abstract swallow]

'nerf' is poor wording on my part, but the design and play of these classes is unintentionally restricted to a significant degree by their lack of access to their utility and inventory mechanics that are intended to set them apart from other classes-- it's literally in the Ranger's class description that he's The Supply Guy™️

[glacial sphinx]

Theres a ton of things you can do to resourcefulness that don't require a weight system as well.

For example you could make the amount of slots on your belt tied to resourcefulness, have it improve consumables, create more interesting interactables etc

[abstract swallow]

it seems like you're more worried about a bad weight system than you are thinking about how they'd include it
could you tell me what, in particular, you think weight would detract from? how do you believe they would implement it that would lead to these issues?

[olive kettle]

would detract from dungeon diving experience

[compact barn]

This is a good idea though right here for resourcefulness being meaningful

[abstract swallow]

that's Utility Effectiveness (and Deploy Speed which seems to have been rolled into Interaction Speed), the other missing substat from Resourcefulness

[glacial sphinx]

I think weight is not gonna do anything that -movespeed doesn't already do that I'd like to have be in the game. If it reduces action speed I think that's annoying. If it reduces movespeed based on how much you've looted I think that promotes anti fun playstyles and takes away from the joy of looting. I legit don't see it adding any fun gameplay or solving any problem that cant be solved in a better way.

But I'll grant you they could come out with something insane that convinces me. But the only upsides you've mentioned are things that I think would detract from the game, so based on that I'm against.

[abstract swallow]

Okay, so you think it wouldn't improve over the existing -MS Penalty weight system we already have, and you think that encumbrance penalties to movement or action speed would be unhealthy for the game?

What if Weight were implemented in such a way that if you continued to play as you do right now, looting a single backpack and wearing normal equipment, and nothing would change except that you started closer to 300+AGI MS and gradually got closer to your current slowdown as you looted?

[patent mauve]

I think a weight system will be healthy for the less experienced players, a geared group will need to plan their exit strategy moreso if their groups speed is reduced after they win a fight and loot the bodies.
This could give newer players more opportunities to rat for gear/ escape a heavily geared team that is chasing them.

[lone crescent]

The game should incetivize looting, i don't think giving a penalty for it is a good choice, it just makes the game more stressul and less fun for me

[glacial sphinx]

No because first of all base movement speed doesn't need to be higher, and second off your viability is decided by your movement speed relative to other people, not what the actual number is.

[lone crescent]

They can't balance things around less experience player

[abstract swallow]

I don't disagree with this idea, but I also feel like looting is meant to be more involved than it is now.
Looting is one of the primary ways you interact with the dungeon, with the other two elements being navigation and PvE combat. Making looting more methodical by including things like Weight and Magic Item Identification seems like it would be a core part of that.

[lone crescent]

Also experience player (especially rogue) will take advantage of that and attack a team after they took the loot

[patent mauve]

They literally said they're not balancing the game for balance sake, that means it's for being balanced around an enjoyable game loop, with new players and long time players in mind.
Looting will still be capable, there's just a penalty for being stuffed with gear. Adding layers to the looting will reduce the cheesing that happens with geared teams in normal lobbies, a weight system and identification speed will be healthy for the gameplay loop.

[olive kettle]

proof on those last statements

[glacial sphinx]

Yeah it seems like some conclusions that are not carried by anything except assumptions.

[patent mauve]

Not knowing if a piece of green/blue gear even has stats that are better for you and having to either take the time to identify them on the spot or take the speed debuff and find an exit portal will add more thought process to the current way of looting

[abstract swallow]

Okay, so why would that increase base movement speed? Do we not already have a pre-existing Naked Meta of players operating at above base movement speed for the entire match due to, in large part, the static -MS penalty we have now?

And if your viability is decided by your movement speed, why would Weight detract from this system?
Why would players operating at lighter or mixed armor levels, ambushing encumbered players, or using intel to prepare for combat by setting their bags down somehow break or violate this gameplay pillar? If anything, it seems like having a simple weight system instead of flat penalties would place *more *emphasis on managing your speed, rather than it being decided for you.

Could a Weight system not lead to more normalized speeds, as different classes and their equipment lend themselves to different ways of interacting with carrying capacity?

[patent mauve]

Great points

[lone crescent]

They said they are not thinking about balance now that the game is far from be completed, they never said they don't plan a good balance in the future

[patent mauve]

Yeah, and that also means.they aren't concerned about things being broken as long as they don't affect the enjoyment of the gamez like locust swarm being overtuned, they only fixed it once players abused it.
If it's not a problem they're not gonna fix anything

[glacial sphinx]

Well my current movement speed is based on whatever I'm wearing right. So assuming that by looting in your weight system i'm going down to my current movement speed my starting speed had to be higher.

The viability argument is related to the loot I'm carrying. Since my relative speed will be lower than someone carrying no loot in your suggested weight system, I'll be disadvantaged (less viable) for having looted things compared to someone who hasn't. That incentivizes not looting things, which is what I dislike.

Normalized speeds can be achieved by limiting the effect of gear/stats on movement speed, and thus doesn't require a weight system.

[lone crescent]

I think identification speed will be something like you need to identify the item to know the rarity and/or modifiers

But we still don't know if identification will be implemented in the future, they can still change their mind

[patent mauve]

I don't see why they wouldn't, knowledge needs more stats tied to it other than spell cast speed and spell memory.

[lone crescent]

Knowledge can determine something related to consumables spells

[patent mauve]

Knowledge is gonna be tied to magical interaction speed and possibly identification speed.

[abstract swallow]

He's on the right track with weight/magic ID being good for the game, at least in terms of pacing. Looting is one of the core PvE pillars that needs to be more involved.
A big part of the game is how you meaningfully interact with the dungeon, and Looting/Combat/Navigation are the main avenues of doing that.
Your ability to loot a room and identify where and what is valuable is a big part of how long you spend in a room (and how vulnerable you are) once you arrive there and have dealt with its obstacles. These elements of value-identification and inventory management expand that 'looting' pillar of the dungeon, creating more organic progression through the dungeon by expanding downtime, more distinct identities for how classes interact with items inside the dungeon, and deepens the room for non-execution based mastery of the game without creating much additional complexity.
Interaction Speed is already a fantastic example of this philosophy at work, and I'd like to see more of it (especially shared to people who aren't Ranger/Rogue).