suggestion-discussion

[odd bronze]

That could make the stairs set behind something similar to the cave troll instead of it just being a get out free.

[potent pumice]

i still think red portals + stairs is the best in between we can have to go to the crypt, having to run in the zone with sometimes (often) unclear area with mobs without being able to see very well just not get camped by the giga 3 squad guarding the stairs in the circle, is like too much effort unless you are a rogue that can travel above the map

• i didnt see much people in floor 2 because everyone wanted to just get out with blue portals, more people in second floor the better

[spice zephyr]

To be honest, When I first Discovered the staircase opening, I thought that there was an event which corelates to it. After thinking about it for a bit I came to the conclusion that the stairs, if triggered by an event, would either open after the cave troll is killed or the second of the levers in the northern skeleton champion room is flicked. Not wanting to try the boss option, I went to the skeleton champion just to discover that the lever by the chest was practically useless during pt 4 and became absolutely unnecessary during playtest 5. I think it would be neat if there were some such extraction points which give an obvious challenge one has to overcome to use

[potent pumice]

That could be a fun idea to hide levers in area nears the stairs to open them but the problem would be to open the stairs too early making you stay in the waiting room for next floor for too much time

[spice zephyr]

I would assume that any player who would know of it, and choose to use it, would either do it after looting, or would be alright with the waiting times. There would be a good initiative to rush it since ruins are meant to have worse loot in the end, but to avoid long waiting times you would need the player to then relobby to an actual crypt lobby(which would require any team player to wait in spectate for his teammate to also extract so they can queue together), however if you're gonna get into a new lobby anyways, looting the ruins becomes an ok choice. In my opinion, "secret" descend stairs would work really well if
a)The player then went to a new crypt lobby
b)the ruins provided more utility items like potions, so that it prepares players for the crypt and more intense pvp
These changes would make it so that any rich mogul could skip the ruins, whilst poorer/Newer player could stock up on healing and other required resources

[robust bison]

yeah but goblin cave is made for u to get "free" stuff

[compact barn]

No goblin cave is made as a solo dungeon. Once the game is out for more than a week you'll be fighting decked out blue/purple players in there every run. That happens even in just the few day playtests ya know. Having ways for players to risk death by running into the zone to try and evac at something that might be gone is a good risk vs reward addition to the maps I think

[spice zephyr]

true, unless they add another method of loosing gold/gear other than dying to the end zone, items will just pile up, With high tier items staying in the economy it will just cause for the high level equipment stagnate while the low tier will be harder to get, this in turn will cause the prices to go up, combining these 3 facts, It will become unbearable for new players since they have to compete against moguls, they can't easily find a mid tier item in the trade tab, and the price of that item will be unreasonable, but I don't think there is a good solution to this other than an alternate method of loosing gear(which would make it frustrating for the veteran players) or often wipes

[abstract swallow]

The elements are already in the UI, but if the economy wants to last for longer than a week or two they definitely need to start putting their foot down on economy management.
Durability to gold tax higher gear levels and filter items out of the economy and Item ID to cut down on the amount of 'optimal' loot being extracted would be a good start, in addition to the loot nerfs that would come with a proper 3F dungeon.

[robust bison]

personnally i did run with really good stuff ands naked and both of them i think half of each i saw no one so just free looting

[uncut helm]

how to write a suggestion?

[robust bison]

10 ppl in this maze is just not enough

[spice zephyr]

we must have lived in different goblin caves, since I usually would have to kill at least 2 people during one run

[abstract swallow]

suggestion channel is down right now champ

[uncut helm]

Thanks

[robust bison]

cuz i think half of them just dies from goblins or mummies in less than 3m so it's almost like u start a game with 6/5 ppl

[abstract swallow]

US-E/W GC usually required me to negotiate/put down 1~2 people
Brazil was free almost every time

[spice zephyr]

my negotiations came down to "bards can live if they go away"

other than that, unless one was exceptionally friendly, it would be a fight

[robust bison]

i didn't said everyrun only like half of them

maybe i said it badly but that was clear for me xd

[compact barn]

9/10 goblin caves runs for me were 2 kills + to get out as well lol

[spice zephyr]

I understood that part, it was just weird to me that you could avoid combat half the runs

[robust bison]

not even avoid combat ,even if on this half there some times where the man i see and i won't fight, just seeing no one

[spice zephyr]

I would assume you would just loot your starter surroundings instead of having a path you would try to follow, my pathing usually meant that I would cross 3 spawn location in the first minute thirty or so. I guess it's possible if people just die to pve early

[abstract swallow]

I went out of my way to save a good few babies in the caves, it's satisfying to turn the tables on someone geared in greens/blues with just the ol' 16gp naked kit

[compact barn]

There some good loot paths in caves that many people started picking up on last playtest. Prolly since it was more of the dedicated players since it was the torrent playtest lol

[spice zephyr]

I would try to kill both elites and loot only the ornate tier chest and above

it worked pretty well if I excuse the fact that at one point I had over 60 lockpicks stashed for it

[fierce relic]

i lost my 5k barb set to basic naked feet fighter with green longsword in goblin caves. i blame u 😄

[compact barn]

xD green longsword all you need amen

[dusky field]

I have such a withdrawal that my way to cope is to come in here to discuss potential mechanics / changes

So what are we arguing boyz? Most efficient way to loot in the caves?

[spice zephyr]

same, although it became minor enough that I start to not look here for days. We were discussing loot permanence which would make it hard for new players to enter the ecosystem

[potent pumice]

People lost full rubysilver gear during the last playtest because of disconnects mid-fight so we got free kills
the ddos were kinda hardcore for some people, not mentioning people having black screens and losing all their gear because unable to play after joining a game

[dusky field]

Oh yes, the game has an hyperinflation problem. It needs more ways to drain gear (and more money sinks) for sure. Someone suggested most gear breaks when you die but that makes pvp very unrewarding. But I guess... 2 items from the equipped gear breaking would be okay

[spice zephyr]

I think I lost a full kit once(albeit I never took best gear for runs) by disconnecting, was kinda frustrating but whatever. Another time I died to a rogue because my mother needed help with something on her laptop and placed it on my mousepad, making it impossible to turn my screen to hit the rogue enough, I managed to kill the rat, but then died to poison

I don't think there is a good system to get rid of loot other than taxing the rich by repair fees

[fierce relic]

it will be harder to get blues and purples on EA. i think loot was so easy to got for testing purposes in short playtest

[rugged eagle]

This is correct

[dusky field]

I'm such an idiot! Ofc! Repairing fees... I remember having read somewhere that the devs wanted to implement some sort of repairing system, and now it sounds so obvious.

You're absolutely right, that's an excellent way of draining gold from the more geared people. The higher the rarity, the more expensive to repair it. It's a perfect way of draining more gold from those who have the most gold. Hopefully there will be other, optional ways of draining, but this is 100% getting implemented I hope

[rugged eagle]

There are already gold sinks present to combat inflation and with the implementation of durability it should be fine

[spice zephyr]

what are you exactly referring to as a gold sink? During my playtime, other than potions and trade fees, there wasn't much I felt like I spent gold on(other than gold purses)

[rugged eagle]

High rollet fee/trade fee

[compact barn]

Yeah this is a good point, hard to know if we need more/less gold sinks till we see drop rates in main game

[rugged eagle]

Also gear is lost and not always extracted with so there is a method of item deletion

Game is very well designed tbh

[spice zephyr]

yes, but it's a rare occurance that would most likely not majorly impact the game since most of the well geared players either know how to avoid dying to zone, and the less valuable items would be the ones to stay behind in case of pvp, which still means someone can pick it up

[magic flume]

you gotta murder them

[rugged eagle]

Sure its rare but that + durability will be sufficient imo

[spice zephyr]

as for the lower rarirty during EA, can you actually go any lower on the collectibles for sale? They feel plenty enough in majority of cases(excluding bugs containing random god tier gold dump)

[spice zephyr]

yeah, probably that will be enough

[rugged eagle]

You mean vendor gear? That likely wont change just dungeon drops

[spice zephyr]

I mean gold trinkets like goblets, scrolls, plates and rings you sell, it is already pretty normal to extract with grey loot to sell to the collector, so I was asking if it makes any sense to lower the drop rate of it in a significant manner

[rugged eagle]

Oooh now i get you i think the trinkets arent gonna get changed because they exclusively interact with merchants

The drop rate/quality felt good imo no need to nerf it

[spice zephyr]

I would assume yeah that it would stay this way since they are likely to introduce new expenses

[rugged eagle]

Merchants will also be a good gold sink once quests come out to raise reputation

Can only assume it will expand their stock because currently most merchants are noob traps

[spice zephyr]

Do you think that the durability system will majorly impact the prices of items? It seems only natural that it would throw a curveball into the player to player trading

[rugged eagle]

They might just not allow trading items that arent max durability

It will create alot of confusion on prices otherwise

[compact barn]

I suppose it depend on how they want to draw out the "early wipe" when it comes to collectibles and their values. Personally, I think the low gear fights were often my most enjoyable so if they can manage to draw out the duration of more players being under geared before hitting the hyper optimal builds I'd enjoy it more lol

[spice zephyr]

alchemist is pretty much not a trap(if you overlook him selling magic staffs), other than that, surgeon, treasurer, weaponsmith and collector are not really traps. The rest have only very specific cases of having something worth

idk how to feel about the woodworker since I practically never used him this playtest

[compact barn]

Quests and how fast we level up probably have a big impact on how gear is used as well. People prolly sit on better gear longer while they're leveling as well rather than just burn it all at once without perks

[spice zephyr]

also what would quests consist of? get an item to a certain merchant? Kill x players/mobs? It feels like the quest system will be more of a chore than actually entertaining tasks

[fierce relic]

kill ghost king to unlock bandages from surgeon 🤣

[spice zephyr]

that's the quest for the grey ones, for the white ones you need to do it solo

[potent pumice]

i just hope they go back to the 3 torches instead of that lantern ball so woodworker is useful again

[spice zephyr]

same

[compact barn]

Yeah hopefully quests aren't just that. Got boring fast doing those in other looter evacs lol

[fierce relic]

This can't be posted because it contains content blocked by this server. This may also be viewed by server owners. HUH ?

no links no nwords 😄 why

[spice zephyr]

A lot of common words are banned, like the surname of the current head of USA

I can type sleepy joe, but once I write his surname, it's done for

[fierce relic]

i dont see how quests would add much to this already almost perfect game. but ironmace are geniuses

[spice zephyr]

Wow, The word for the Highest official of a nation is banned too

I never thought doing crosswords would be beneficial, but I finally get to use my expertise

[rugged eagle]

I disagree on weaponsmith as you could normally snag a green wep for 30g through trade and the armourers were definitely traps with grey plate actually being worse then nothing

Wood dude has campfires though which are nice if not a bit overpriced

[fierce relic]

i made like 2k reselling merchant items in trade while it was lagging and getting ddos

[rugged eagle]

Thats just trade chat insanity people were reselling grey dark plate for 100g

[latent tundra]

People see the worst purples and drop 300g

[patent mauve]

Buying rings off the goblin merchant as pure profit.

[lone crescent]

Woodsman has franciscas, he's a good merchant

Durability will maybe be tested then removed from the game, i don't see how it can be useful.
Repair could be useful if they add some broken pieces of gear to repair as crafting

[lone crescent]

Quests should be a way to unlock things, i don't think they will be infinite

You have to do them again after wipe tho

[latent tundra]

Pls no durability

[high thicket]

Durability is inevitable

[robust bison]

how u got that many?

[spice zephyr]

Wake up early, get on my puter, go to utility chat, select consumables and then buy, in the morning people were reasonable and sold for like 20/25 a piece

[high thicket]

I collected 30 or so just by going to 100% spawns in the crypt

[robust bison]

oh ok xD never thought to go there for lock picks 💀 i'm dumb af

[spice zephyr]

it became unbearable past morning though, with people trying to sell for 50 a piece

[robust bison]

yeah i tried but the only path i know require a barb or a fireball to break the chests

[spice zephyr]

the amount of lockpicks spawns compared to amount of chests is just so bad

[robust bison]

yeah but it's made for i think

[high thicket]

1 Almost always spawns on one of the tables in the big library, 2 spawn in the X shaped room; one above the broken altar by the archer skeleton, one tucked into the corner by the big chest

[robust bison]

these locked chests have high % chance to give purple and orange stuff (even if orange are like 0.3) so i think it's ok and just bring a rogue

[spice zephyr]

there are like 2, maybe 3 mobs which can give lockpicks(none of them has 100% drop rate) and then there are the spawn spots

[robust bison]

for real on the library? i almost went there and never saw it xDDD

[rugged eagle]

Even the small locked ones are so good

[robust bison]

yeah that's why i think having low 100% chance of getting a lockpick seems ok

cuz if u could open everychests without a rogue the perk would be turbo useless where here, it can be useful on naked runs

[high thicket]

I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could potentially get 4 or more lockpicks every run

[spice zephyr]

also is the amounts of checks you need to compete dependant on the time it takes to lockpick or is it a set amount?

I never got to open one not with a cleric, So I always had to do 2 checks

[high thicket]

It's dependent on time. By stacking resourcefulness you can cut the checks from 2 to 1

[rugged eagle]

I literally never found a single lockpick all of mine were from killing other players so maybe I was just looking in the wrong spots?

[high thicket]

I know 2 spawns that are 100%, and there's probably more. The library has one on the table (it's hard to see) but it's not 100% spawn, and the room shaped like an X with the mining nodes in it has two spawns

[rugged eagle]

I've full cleared the big library a ton and never seen it just bad luck I guess

[spice zephyr]

I don't think there is a single 100% picklock drop in goblin cave

which is a shame, there is at least 1 spot it can spawn in, but I don't know much else

[high thicket]

Ruins probably doesn't either, and it probably shouldn't have one

[lucid root]

What do you guys think of skeleton keys that give you access to any of the 3 floors, single use item

[high thicket]

Sounds like a waste of money

[compact barn]

Only ever found lockpicks off other players as well lol

[lucid root]

Non purchasable/tradeable, just a random drop

Might help speed up queing for floor 3 if you have people using floor keys

[high thicket]

Sounds messy from a technical standpoint

[lucid root]

Make it about half as rare as candy on the loot table

Twice as rare*, so half the chance

I'll admit i haven't put any thought into the idea other than it sounding cool

[abstract swallow]

could be doable, and would finally give undersized parties an incentive to exist if you couldn't trade them

[high thicket]

It probably wouldn't change anything about queue times for floor 3

If anything it would just make things complicated server side

[lucid root]

Id probably use them to skip ruins

[high thicket]

Are you joining other people who have already run through the first two floors? Are you only in queue with other key users? Are the keys so rare you end up queuing into floor 3 completely uncontested 90% of the time?

[lucid root]

Joining existing games im assuming

[high thicket]

The hell? What content was banned It didn't like my message

[spice zephyr]

yeah, a lot of common words are banned

like the method of optimising your play or the head of a nation, even the surname of sleepy joe

[lucid root]

The filter changes a lot depending on which copypastas get out of hand

[high thicket]

I'm trying to have a conversation and this filter is proving problematic.

I can't make my point without the bot getting in the way

[spice zephyr]

I can't even call judgement a certain move which includes the surname of sleepy joe and is inspired by dragon ball

[spice zephyr]

well you can go around it but it makes it less coherent

[lucid root]

Use your synonyms

[spice zephyr]

(min)-(maxxing) has no synonym

[high thicket]

I'm not even using uncommon terms, so I'm not even sure what to change

[spice zephyr]

I will get banned for avoiding the filter, I can feel it

[lucid root]

Optimizing? Not perfect i guess

[placid canopy]

Bot wouldn't let me type war maul so I had to change to warmaul earlier but it seems to work now

[lucid root]

Most you'll get is an hour ban for avoiding the filter

[fierce relic]

how can u tell which word is banned ?

[placid canopy]

Can't really unless your message doesn't send you gotta guess which one it is

[spice zephyr]

type the last name of the current head of nation of USA and you will see

[lucid root]

Use class chat to test around, no cooldown timer, delete messages for courtesy

[brittle jasper]

Wish their was a list of banned words we could laugh at

[spice zephyr]

you can edit them instead, if an edited message has a banned word, it will autodelete

[lucid root]

Better idea ^

I think only the tavern masters know what the filter consists of? I asked one of the mods they didnt know

[spice zephyr]

I love how this chat basically became a more civilised general in terms of use

[high thicket]

Pretty much.

[lucid root]

From worst to best general>gamediscuss>suggestions>class chat

Biased toward wizzy chat

[compact barn]

I'm not a big fan of the skipping floors idea. I think the progression through the maps is important to DaD. Also feels like it aligns well with the background/lore behind the idea of the dungeon diving. Not sure if Ironmace plans on adding any lore to the game in a substantial way tho, so if they don't I don't see a reason that would inhibit the skip a floor item ideas

[spice zephyr]

They said they want a 3 floor dungeon max, I don't think it's long enough to guarantee floor skips, there may be easily accessible passages for everyone, but I would not expect an item for that

[compact barn]

I'd rather see a key item added for a larger scale dungeon option or something in the future. Like the multi team raid idea but rather than a queue you can find the item and have a chance. Tho that would prolly end up locking a lotta players outta that kinda content I suppose

[spice zephyr]

A dungeon for guilds which is accessible solely through a certain item isn't a bad idea, especially when we consider that guilds don't always require team play

[patent mauve]

I'd love for a complete 3 part map, ruins, crypt,, and hell all-in-one mode.

[rugged eagle]

Yeah if they bring back ruins/crypt and add red portal to crypt that is perfect. I dont know why crypt didnt have to begin with

[teal arch]

it's funny that the coolest suggestions are the ones that get the most downvotes lol

[spice zephyr]

as in?

[fierce relic]

with such a small inventory... it would stress me out picking what loot to keep going all 3 levels ruins-crypt-hell. im a loot goblin

[spice zephyr]

Being cool does not mean it's viable, unless you give us an example, we cannot agree what is cool and what is a power fantasy of a certain user

[rugged eagle]

Tbf if you are heading down to hell the loot from ruins/crypt prob isnt worth holding

[spice zephyr]

you never know, it might be something really good. Unless you are well geared, the gear loot to not loose something may be enough to prevent going down

[compact barn]

Yeah can't wait for the 3 floor map. People didn't like the blue crypts much but I loved it. It was way more hostile feeling like a dungeon should be lol. They could also just use that filter and create a randomized occurrence of like a "nightmare" variant of the floors. Spawns with more loot/tier 2 and 3 enemies and such

[spice zephyr]

do you actually call monsters by tiers? I usually go with the normal, elite and nightmare naming system

[fierce relic]

yeah but what to do in ruins/crypt... hide in corner and wait for down portals? kill players just for fun and not loot them in crypts or droping all that loot when in hell.

im not against the idea.

its just my personal loot goblin problems 😄

[patent mauve]

Love that idea, adds so much variation and considering whether diving down farther will be worth the risk.

[spice zephyr]

I think it wouldn't be too impactful if a player got to send away one item to their stash during descend, it would allow to go down while also keeping a certain item they find too valueable to use that run

[soft finch]

I disagree honestly, I prefer the all or nothing style. Being able to just send away the best thing you found would mean you basically always have something to profit from

[spice zephyr]

probably correct but I think that a lot of people will avoid ever going to hell because of the nature of it, with how unforgiving extract portals can be when they spawn in ghost king room

[hazy tulip]

We'll thats the risk for getting better gear. Perfectly fine. Over time players will get more and more confident against pvp and more players will delve deeper anyway.

[brittle jasper]

Kinda wish i could go to hell and learn the patterns of the NPC's down their without having to fight my way past 1-2 whole floors of combat first

[hazy tulip]

Tbh if you know what your doing you can go down your first lobby. Not solo, but in a group for sure.

[potent jay]

quests have a way of giving players tunnel vision where the forget about the actual game at least from what I have seen

[lone crescent]

You still have to go and risk your loot in the dungeon, i agree that people wil use starting loot to make the quest to kill skeletons for example, but what if you need to extract to progress through the quest? Then people are forced to fight and use good gear even for pve quests

[abstract swallow]

Quests would be nice, giving players objectives other than Total Default Kit Death and scraping out as much loot as possible would be good for game health and lobby intensity.

[hazy tulip]

cant bring back any goblin ears unless u live

[lone crescent]

Something like that yeah

[hazy tulip]

Bigger quests in inferno killing the centaur or a boss would incentivize ppl too.

[potent jay]

watching a friend play tarkov and marauders, the quests have turned the game into "work" for this person

[lone crescent]

I still think forcing players to play Ruins is a bad idea, then only way to go in Crypt consistently while keeping the game fun is requeue when you go down and that's a bad idea

[lone crescent]

No one forces you to do quests tho

If you don't care upgrading merchants you just ignore them

[potent jay]

I try to encourage just go on the hill and snipe or whatever but the phycological pressure is too great!

[compact barn]

Can't play tarkov for the quests anymore lol. Play for fun or don't play is the only way I can approach tarkov anymore. Dark and Darker will at least always have that fun aspect since I have more fun running around with a gray longsword and no pants more than anything else anyways xD

[spice zephyr]

just no, killing the minotaur is already a stretch of a quest which majority of people wouldn't do, left alone the boss

[hazy tulip]

you can do it! Believe in yourself!

[spice zephyr]

it's not a question whether I will do it, since I have already nerded out on DaD enough to read the wiki during the downtime, It's a matter of the average player

[fierce relic]

💯 and when is ur next longsword video ? i cant wait

[lone crescent]

Can't balance a game around the average player

[spice zephyr]

cannot make an intrinsic part of the game inaccessible to the average player

I get the golden key/skeleton key tomfoolery, that's alright, but quests being inaccessible is not good

[fierce relic]

there is never balance in full loot games. in the end there is always haves and the have-nots

[lone crescent]

Even uniques are inaccessible for many players, especially if you play solo

[hazy tulip]

I dont think the average player can't do it. Everyone was a noob once, eventually everyone will be able to kill at least the lich consistently.

[lone crescent]

By this logic they should add high roller to goblin caves and make the troll drops uniques

[spice zephyr]

it will sure take a while

[hazy tulip]

Yeah, but the challenge is half the fun.

[brittle jasper]

High roller goblin caves is a cool idea but for a 1 floor dungeon it should not drop uniques

[spice zephyr]

Are uniques a fundamental part of the game? I would say no since even great players often don't get them. Neither is the goblin cave idea really accessible, since the only thing it would add would be more thrill and danger, but you can get that by just queueing normal ruins minus the loot part. I don't think that the boss kill should be a requirement, I don't specifically say no to the minibosses being quest related, but I don't think even eft has boss kill quests for a good reason

[lone crescent]

Even high level merchants quest are not a fundamental part of the game

I'm a solo player atm and i'm well aware i can't have uniques and that's fine, i don't pretend to get everything on a team based game

For the same reason i don't pretend to complete all the quest if I'm bad at the game

[patent mauve]

I kinda want lootable single use spell scrolls that any class can read and cast with enough knowledge stat.

[placid canopy]

Devs have said they plan on adding this

[patent mauve]

Sick

[dusky field]

Durability system! It's desperately needed

[reef spindle]

I posted some calculation in barbarian discussion

[spice zephyr]

could you dm it to me if it's not a bother?

[reef spindle]

about move speed of sprint and rage
and how buffing rage by even to 20% would make it op but there could be other way

[placid canopy]

Don't forget rage also grants 15 strength

[reef spindle]

and defence is reduced by -20%

[placid canopy]

Yeah it's just hard to compare that to sprint when all sprint does is movespeed

[reef spindle]

I am not really happy with getting more STR really

[placid canopy]

Don't need to take it then. Savage roar and war cry are both good options

[reef spindle]

I would say even carnage would benefit more from extra move speed on kill rather more STR

[compact barn]

Movespeed is the best for sure

[reef spindle]

if I was in charge I would completly rework barb from HP tank to move move speed base fighter

[placid canopy]

Ya I think most (good) people ran rage and achilles

[reef spindle]

barb shouldn't get so much STR from all those skills and talents, remove all of it and give him speed

[lone crescent]

It was planned for PT5 in origin, maybe they delayed it

[lone crescent]

Why

[placid canopy]

I just think they need to take hp off strength and make constitution as a stat for hp

[north inlet]

Yeah easier to balance combat when combat stats relate to one thing and one thing only. But I think each stat does do a couple different things so maybe it's fine.

[spice zephyr]

Rage is on brink of outperforming many specific skills, It seems really strong on it's own and buffing it could make it way too strong, Also if you were to remove the strength, you would need to rebalance the perk since the -20% defense attached to it is not as significant as it can seem

[lone crescent]

@reef spindle the -20% defence is mostly a compensation for the extra health given by strength, the effective defense reduction is much less.

If they make Rage adds physical damage and movespeed instead they can remove the defense debuff

[maiden halo]

https://youtu.be/pOVaMqlKLko

[abstract swallow]

The only issue I have with them moving HP to CON is that it's gonna set up a REALLY brutal stat vacuum, especially once they start adding substats
at best I can see moving Debuff Duration to hypothetical CON and making Buff Duration into Effect Duration and slapping it on KNW

I also much prefer the depth of Rage as an option that situationally boosts survivability and works well with the injury/restable HP system, rather than yet another flat damage buff

[placid canopy]

Debuff duration makes perfect sense to slap onto con as well so will isn't as strong as it currently is

Strength probably needs something else to make up for the disgusting nerf it would get though. Maybe block break strength or something idk

[reef spindle]

I wouldn't even care if we it was debuffing our HP, I would still take it with more move speed

[abstract swallow]

making Impact scale on STR difference would be interesting, but splitting STR and CON is still a huge nerf to the stat allocation of every melee except maybe Rogue

[placid canopy]

They could always easily rework the stat distributions

[spice zephyr]

wouldn't rogue then just invest in magic damage with how much he somehow depends on them?

[maiden halo]

Rage is best speed baff, and only ~7% increase, not 20% damage taken.

[placid canopy]

Magic damage rogue is bad and should never be built outside of memes or wanting to me off meta for whatever reason

[lone crescent]

Strength is mostly used by fighter and barb who are supposed to have large hp pool, especially barb.

Other classes cna invest in strength to have more hp and damage, i think strength is balanced right now

[placid canopy]

It's just weird and often insanely hard to balance stacking hp and getting damage from it in any game. It also feels bad for something like a wizard to build it for hp but not really utilizing the damage that every other class can

[placid canopy]

That video had an update btw with updated info https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqOrtjMuVXU

[reef spindle]

how?

[spice zephyr]

I assume that's the video from ryan? I am too paranoic to click random links

[placid canopy]

It's clowd, another really good youtuber for dad math

[lone crescent]

Splitting STR and COS will only make Fighter and Barbarian much worse and every other class too will get worse. If you want more hp with a wizard then it's fair to have even more dmg, at least STR is not a useless stat for him

[spice zephyr]

I mixed them up, I saw it though

[lone crescent]

Right now every stat is useful on every class and i like it

[reef spindle]

50 move speed from sprint is much better than rage 15%

as I said you would need 334 move speed to have 50 move speed from rage

[lone crescent]

Rage gives temporary hp, the -20% is some kind of compensation, is not effective debuff. Maybe they plan on making no def debuff in the future

[reef spindle]

i don't care about hp or dmg
barb needs move speed more than those

[placid canopy]

They aren't supposed to do the same thing. One gives some speed, max health, and more dmg taken and damage and the other is just speed

Barb definitely does not need more speed. They already wreak havoc. If you want more speed just get a wizard to haste you

[lone crescent]

I think 10% physical power and no defense debuff would be better, maybe the movespeed could be 20%

[reef spindle]

but why knights can be faster than barbarians?

[placid canopy]

Because it's a different class

[reef spindle]

don't knights also wreak havoc? Halberd knight is strong

[lone crescent]

They are heavier with plate armor, without sprint they are stuck

Without plate armor they can still be oneshotted by a geared barb

[reef spindle]

they can choose to not wear plate and be just better barb

[placid canopy]

Not everything from every class has to be exactly equal. That's how you get a boring game

[rancid pebble]

knowledge is only useful for cleric and wizard

[lone crescent]

Knowledge should give "item identification speed", is just not in the game yet

[spice zephyr]

yeah, so far knowledge is only for wiz and cleric, and even then it can be easily switched out by a spell capacity bonus

[placid canopy]

Knowledge is WAY better than capacity cuz it gives massive amounts of cast speed

[daring socket]

Would thorns on armour be a good idea so when enemies hit you they take a small amount of damage, maybe make it one of them unique finds idk.

[lone crescent]

No for me

[spice zephyr]

they could add it as an unique, but overall I wouldn't want that in the game

[placid canopy]

Sounds toxic on the 95% DR builds and also doesn't make sense unless enemy is using a dagger or fists

[daring socket]

Fairs guys 😎 that’s all I got

[lone crescent]

Rogue proceeds to kill himself attacking a fighter

[placid canopy]

I could see it on a unique shield if you successfully block it feels like you hit a wall and the impact hurts to hold onto the weapon or something

[spice zephyr]

so Aegis but for melee

[patent mauve]

Yeah and also magical interaction speed

[lone crescent]

Well that's useful

[patent mauve]

Fr opening portals and using shrines is gonna change across the board when they implement it all.

[rigid prawn]

Would make sense if every stat point added major and minor stat bonuses. Have Knowledge and Agility etc give a small boost to hp by a few points, while Strength being the main tank stat gives out a much larger amount, but you still get a tiny bit of agility etc.

Would allow better control over scaling overall and would also allow classes like Wizard (which taking Str is almost a wasted stat currently) to have a slightly higher health pool than default.

[dusky field]

To drain gold from the players since the game needs a money sink, especially with the more geared people. So, the stronger the gear and the more rare, the more it costs to repair. Hyperinflation fixed

[patent mauve]

Yeah, it doesn't even need to be much, and also would incentivize going HR instead of pwning low gears in normal lobbies. Your gear breaking after 5~ runs and costing 50-100g+

[lone crescent]

I don't like it, durability is no fun

[glacial walrus]

If you take a look at the estimated stats curves (just Google dark and darker stats, there's a page from spells and guns), you will see that additional str actually benefits the wizard more!

[tawny python]

ye its really easy if you just a got a good team

[patent mauve]

This

[rigid prawn]

it should be a useless stat though, that makes 0 sense. Wiz should be stacking magic damage not strength lol

[lone crescent]

Yes but how splitting STR and COS will benefit the game? For Wizard both are bad

[patent mauve]

Strength on wizard isnt too bad, makes better use of the melee builds for wizard too. Will is good on rogue for potion and debuff durations. Knowledge is the only stat that doesnt have some of its true value implemented

[lone crescent]

STR works like this cause classes that have morenpoints are supposed to have high health while others gets a huge benefit for max hp

STR from 10 to 50 gives 2 max hp every point

[patent mauve]

Resourcefulness gives pretty good gains for looting and opening doors/portals.

[lone crescent]

Wizard starts with 5 STR, from 5 to 10 it's 3 hp for point

A +5 str for Wiz is 15 max hp

[glacial walrus]

Because of how stats work, I've usually built strength on rogue (he starts with NEGATIVE dmg modifier btw) and agility on Barb. Those 2 classes are so pumped on one stat, it seems inefficient to keep stacking that one.

[patent mauve]

One of the best stat systems ive seen in a long time

[lone crescent]

Except for dmg reduction

Btw everyone familiar with Dark Souls knows how the stats works in DaD

[patent mauve]

I think what theyre doing with armor pen perks helps, but yeah it could use a tweak.

[lone crescent]

Armor under a certain threshold is like being naked then suddenly you get a huge boost that can be reached only by cleric and fighter and keeps going up

They need to give us some more armor for light and less max armor for heavy

[patent mauve]

I hope we get more things that add chaos into the mix, like how oil lanterns and explosion bottles are niche but really strong. Throwable smoke bombs or blinding flares.

[rigid prawn]

By giving major and minor scaling to all stats you can bring people up with the quality of their gear better since Wiz wont be at DEFAULT hp with 0 additional STR. Con as a stat is problematic imo

Strength on Wiz should be an off build, not the BIS lol

[patent mauve]

It isnt BIS though, cuz Will scales multiplicatively with bonus magic damage, you get massive gains from will+magic dmg, so the only time youre taking strength is with all stats, a very very valuable affix . The damage in the game makes off stats niche but not completely useless

[rigid prawn]

The system im suggesting is closer to souls than whats in the game currently. When you level up any stat in souls you get a boost to HP and Stamina with it

[rigid prawn]

The current system means building Str on a rogue is the best way to maximise damage

[lone crescent]

No it doesn't work like that in souls games.

Vigor gives hp and poison resistance
Str and Dex gives dmg and phys res
Faith and Int gives magic damage and magic defense
Endurance gives stamina

[patent mauve]

Not if you consider rogues attack speed, you'd gain more from focusing flat damage and %pen increases over prioritizing str.

[rigid prawn]

As their major stats yes but ALL LEVEL UPS give base resistances and HP/Stamina which is the point im making

[patent mauve]

You need 50 strength for 30% phys dmg bonus

[lone crescent]

If you focus on str you get less damage and more hp

[lone crescent]

No, dark souls never did that, only stats makes difference, levels doesn't give any stat boost

[patent mauve]

Yeah exactly, its good for survivability but you get less overall dmg focusing pure str.

[rigid prawn]

Ive played every souls game including sekiro, im objectively right go re check.

[lone crescent]

I miss only demon souls, i play all the others From Software souls

[rigid prawn]

Then you need to pay attention to the number in the level up screen. you will see a lot of blue per level up across almost all your stats.

[lone crescent]

Level never gave any boost in stats only points spent did

[rigid prawn]

Yes the points spent have major and minor stat bonuses i dont know why were arguing this its been in the FS games since demon souls lol

[lone crescent]

No, not all, every stat boost something yes but level doesn't

[rigid prawn]

Not the level itself, but it can be viewed this way since it doesn't matter which stat you put points into you gain a small amount of HP/Stamina (like 20-50 or so depending on the level

[lone crescent]

If you never spend any point in vigor you still have base hp like in the start game even if you are level 200, same for endurance, you still have base stamina

I did way too much respec and i was a stat nerd for DS3, i know for sure

[rigid prawn]

Not base, slightly higher than base by a small margin

[compact barn]

How'd y'all get on souls stats and level lol

[rigid prawn]

im literally looking at the wiki dude i dont know what to tell you believe me or not but im right

[patent mauve]

Souls players spotted LMFAO

[rigid prawn]

Im suggesting a change to DAD stats to work similar. When you level up agil, know, or any other stat other than Str you still get a small boost to HP as a minor stat boost. HP stays as a major stat for STR so you get the most from it but it will help thje whole purple wearing wizard at BASE HP lol

[lone crescent]

The wiki never said you get health by leveling anything other then vitality

[compact barn]

Minor stat effects would be a cool change. Would add variance in builds. Doesn't need to be over kill just like you suggested, each attribute has set major impacts on stats and minor impacts

[rigid prawn]

Which wiki? This is testable if you have any of the games installed as well, just watch your HP on the level up screen it will increase by 10-50 depending on any stat that isnt vit, while VIt give the most (obviously)

The table on DS2 shows it on the wiki

[patent mauve]

Theres already the all stat affix in the gear rolls, this allows wizards to gain from a stat they normally wouldnt use.

[rigid prawn]

And it will remain the BIS stat for gear for sure, but both my suggestion and the current +1 all stats can coexist

[lone crescent]

Ok seems like i was wrong, that's a DS2 only mechanic btw

Other souls i played never did that

[rigid prawn]

So we are both right lol makes sense why we are both so stubborn on it

[lone crescent]

Maybe Bloodborne, i'm not sure

[rigid prawn]

Yeah looking through the wikis DS2 might eb the only one, apologies lol don;t know why i thought that continued through the other games but i still think its a good idea to bring HP pools up on classes that might not take STR primarily

[lone crescent]

Well neither of us lost the argument lol

[rigid prawn]

We're both number 1! do we get trophies?

[patent mauve]

Maybe new crafting materials/trophy treasures to drop from mobs; leather/pelt from wolves/ demon hounds, essence from wisps, poison glands from bugs, bowels from zombies, high quality cloth pieces from mummies, bat fangs ect

[compact barn]

Yeah I'd like to see crafting weapons/armors at varying rarities and such for different mobs trophy parts or something. Even though it's hard to get enough out as is loot wise I still think something like that would be pretty awesome

[teal axle]

as a wizard main this is perhaps the worst suggestion ive ever seen in this chat #d-and-d-suggestions message

[teal axle]

rubysilver longsword

[gaunt cargo]

Infuse weapons with the souls of slain enemies at the alchemist for stat boosts. 😬

[desert bridge]

9️⃣ ❓

[compact barn]

Someday xD

[gleaming kestrel]

What happened to making suggestions?

[rigid prawn]

They said they were sick of our crap so they removed it for their own sanity

[lone crescent]

If they add mod trophies for quests they need to prevent stashing them

[ionic flume]

I think they get too many and want to limit them so they can actually read and consider them all

[compact barn]

Yeah the fact the devs actively play the game quite a bit during the tests I'd think they'd take a lot of the suggestions to heart and genuinely assess if they'd improve the game

[abstract swallow]

I feel like a lot of people expect way more of an emphasis on balance when that clearly isn't the purpose of these tests, especially with a restricted patching ability.

[lucid root]

Devs are rogue mains

[compact barn]

Dirty rouges

[hasty vigil]

nerf all numbers except 9️⃣

[slate tartan]

Now that's some copium

[trail owl]

Graysun our lord and savior

[lucid salmon]

I was just about to make a suggestion 😿 It was soooo simple too

[lucid root]

Just post it here

[robust bison]

Btw idk what u think abt it but maybe add more range on radius talent (like jokester and holy aura) i felt like younalmost needed to be legit glued back to back with ur mates t'and if someone doesn't have his back on the other he loses the buff

[tawny python]

graysun is a fighter main .

[remote hamlet]

That's the point of the buff . . . .

[remote hamlet]

It 100% is the purpose of the tests along with bug testing. Our play data is what's balancing the game i.e. more drop rates of certain weapons. Less/more damage from environment, player spells and perks. So much will change

[remote hamlet]

Stack strength. Gg

[novel cypress]

Let the cleric have a flail

[patent mauve]

Give rogue feign death skill :^)

[lilac canyon]

💯

[elder jolt]

@ripe turtle I like your suggestion, but I think denying an enemy resurrect this way is a bit too brutal. Here is my alternative: When an Ally goes down, you can reanimate their corpse to fight with you with 50% max hp. The reanimation lasts say, 2 m

In that time your goal as a team should be:

• finish current fight
• get to resurrection table
• fully resurrect

I like this because it also brings in another class that has the ability to resurrect, in the form of resurrect-lite, which would have a quicker cast time and not be permanent. I suppose in this state you would not be able to extract either? But at least the reanimated player could walk their own body to the resurrect table and keep their loot and gear more easily.

I am also not sure if Necromancer is planned in the future? So perhaps this could be a placeholder class/ability if that is the case.

[remote hamlet]

The swing pattern would be way too unrealistic or overly encumbering meaning the player wouldn't be able to move while the flail is flailing after the swing, at least not in a balanced way

[elder jolt]

I agree with this, the flail would need it's own physics engine hahaha

[remote hamlet]

I think a battle res type ability might work on the warlock but only if it brought both players below 25% hp otherwise it's way too strong imo

[elder jolt]

Yes, I think some life sacrifice would be in order

[remote hamlet]

And earning a kill or assist could grant permanent res

[elder jolt]

Either that, or a pre-emtive buff that lets an ally take one additional hit to kill (like, puts them in dying state but not actually killing them). And then they would die a little bit after that

[spice zephyr]

Borrowed time, eh?

[elder jolt]

I thought this too, quenching your soul's thirst and restoring karmic balance in the eyes of the evil demon overlords.. Like they get another soul instead of yours

[remote hamlet]

A bubble kind of would be cool, I've thought about adding a dedicated healer with only party buffs and heals/shields but don't see the point with cleric

[elder jolt]

Yes, hahahhah, Or like Wraith King aghanims in dota/ Old Yorick in League of Legends or current Renata in LoL

[remote hamlet]

Renata ult for warlock? Lol

[elder jolt]

Uhhmm, I think it's a basic ability. I am not really a League player

[remote hamlet]

Renatas ult makes anyone hit attack the nearest player for 2 seconds

[spice zephyr]

As in they hit their allies too or is it basically a taunt ability which focuses all the damage on one character?

[elder jolt]

Bailout - her W:

If the target takes Death.png fatal damage while Bailout is active, they are restored to 100% of their maximum health but suffer a Hybrid penetration icon.png true damage burn equal to 10% of their maximum health every 0.264 seconds until they die from reaching 0 health, during which Bailout's duration resets every 0.25 seconds. This effect may occur only once per application of Bailout while the target already has the buff and is not burning.
During this time, if they score a Damage rating.png takedown against an enemy champion within 6 seconds of damaging them, the burn is stopped prematurely and they are set to 20% of their maximum health.

Essentially, it gives them a buff that brings them back to life. When they die they are allowed to remain fighting for 5-10 seconds and if they kill/assist an enemy death, they are fully brought back on low health

This way, a necromancer class in the future could be given the temporary resurrect ability? So it leaves 3 different ways it's implemented each with their own positives and negatives

[wary junco]

Necromancer will mostlikely a sub class of the warlock if subclasses will ever get implemented

[elder jolt]

I hope so, would love to see them push different styles of each class out this way.

Similar to wizard and sorcerer, or rogue/thief and assassin

[wary junco]

If they do sub classes some diffrent classes from DnD... for example paladin will not be added. Which i find accepteable considering that paladin finds himself in an identitycrisis between fighter and cleric

Current cleric already feels like a paladin... only thing is missing that cleric cant use 1 handed swords 2 handed sword and plate breastplates

I also believe that sorcerer wouldnt be added considering it could be just a subclass from wizard

Iam want to play druid so bad 😦 I also believe earthqauke should be given to druids if they are avaiable instead of cleric considering it is a more nature based spell. The same could be said to locust swarm... thinking about thag 2 abilities that are very nature based are already here makes me think that druid wont get implemented at all, since every spell that would be fitting is already on someone else... i mean even "Bind" fits more to the druid thematicly then to the cleric. Atleast from my view it fits the druid theme better to root people with roots coming out of the ground

[wary junco]

Technicly druid itself could be a subclass of cleric which would prevent cleric from beeing gutted and taking away some of his spells just because they fit better into an other class. Druid beeing subclass of cleric isnt that absurd considering the beliefes are similar while clerics believe in a godly power from above druids believe in the nature as godly beeing so technicly its doable

[smoky yoke]

i hope for subclasses as well
devs once mentioned about "multi class" if multi class stands for sub classes 🤔
but they said that they were simply just thinking it about carefully

here the original qna

Q: Will we ever be able to upgrade characters past level 20?
A: There are a few plans for this. All I can say currently is we are interested in multi class, but we are going to approach it with caution.

[wary junco]

i think subclassing would benefit the game it that sense that it doesnt get blown away with to many classes

[somber wind]

They both mentioned multi-classing and prestige classes, so I think they're going for 3.5e and not 5e Dungeons and Dragons (aka no subclasses and instead prestige classes).

[tawny python]

please remove the buff stacks like for example cleric protection and pot protection .

[cosmic thistle]

If theme is a problem then you are not looking at it correctly, clerics gain their powers from a divine source, creating earthquakes, binding people, and summoning swarms of locusts is not outside of that theme, its why cleric is the most versatile class in dungeons and dragons because divine powers come in many different forms, you could even say ANY form. Two classes casting similar functioning spells is not a deal breaker for me and shouldn't really be for anyone, they can be tweaked and used in many different ways and combinations with other class abilities.

[cosmic thistle]

That would make mid-late game completely disregard that spell...

[tawny python]

nah the spell already scale with your will the fact is late game 40 shield with 40 blue prot you already have double your hp at that point

[cosmic thistle]

Same issue, now blue pots are useless.

Just seems like an unnecessary nerf to clerics.

[tawny python]

is there purpose only to be stacked with cleric protection idont think so .

[cosmic thistle]

Are you seriously asking whether or not a blue potions only purpose is to be stacked? YES

[tawny python]

cleric in general is very unhealthy in the game tank/deal insane amount of / healer/support .

[cosmic thistle]

It sounds like you need to petition a nerf to barbarian as well.

Every class has their thing (except maybe fighter?) thats not a reason to make any of them weaker.

Once more niches come into play such as elemental damage types (confirmed) im sure you will sort of get what you want. Clerics wont feel as tanky anymore with their magical and physical damage reduction, their protection spell wont be as useful even when stacked, and many clerics may just choose heals or damage rather than both.

[tawny python]

nah in the stat we can see he got more kills then wizz . a full plate cleric with magic res helmet and some will is literally insane heal 50 % hp judgement deals 60 % of hp any squishy class /rogue/ranger/wiz bard the class shine in every role its in it has to much versatility . pretty sure even if you full plate burn zap/fireball ignite etc wont even proc on cleric if you get some will and perk 50% reduction of effect .

[cosmic thistle]

If that is your method to nerfing classes than I suggest you find another one, there are so few wizards and bards that I wouldn't be surprised if meming fighters got more kills with a lute than the bards/

Also none of the more practical means of nerfing clerics DR will be applicable in the near future, in other words you will be getting what you desire.

[tawny python]

there is less player overall this pt . reducing his armor wont solve the problem .

[robust bison]

Yh but in mean it's rare in teamfight to be legit glued to ir mates 💀 it's like 1 meter radius

[cosmic thistle]

Not relevant to what I said also I never suggested reducing his armor.

[grim fiber]

I mean, first 3 days we had Super locust , a lot of clerics secured a lot of kills

[cosmic thistle]

There is only the normal locust and the nerfed locust. 😦

[tawny python]

2 days not 3 . it really doesnt matter cleric excellent at everything tbh .

[grim fiber]

Disagree, it was good for sure, probably the best class last PT, but wasn't the best at everything

[tawny python]

a combination of heal/tank/dps/support in a single class .

[brittle jasper]

cleric cant out run a rouge or out range wizard or the bow boys

[grim fiber]

A fighter can use every single weapon in the game, is it broken too?

[tawny python]

at least he can heal his teamates / buff them and do magical dmg .

[grim fiber]

Can't use a bow tho, or other weapon

[remote hamlet]

That's the point of the buff lol

[remote hamlet]

But you can heal/support enemies and you can dps your own team meaning it's a skill gap not balance

[robust bison]

It's usefull only on thz man who have the talent 💀 i don't ask to give the buff h24 just add a bit more radius so it's really useful

[remote hamlet]

It's meant to buff your team when your in close quarters. Nothing more

[robust bison]

What ever is the map

It's almost never giver to the other cuz u r never in a block of 1x1 you are always a bit spaced so no one get the buffs

Except if u 2 on 1 ppl so the buff doesn't rly matter

[mossy narwhal]

Call me crazy but the classes should not be 1f1 balanced. Everyone should have their ups and downs. Barbs are only good at melee and easily out paced. They have terrible loot potential and require you to either have 100 axes or charge the enemy to fight. Clerics are tanky healers but exchange the have no range and are really weak to simply being burst down by any one who has as good or better gear. Rogues are low hp glasscannons. But they have unparalleled fleeing skills and better loot potential. These classes should have niche playstyles. Classes should more than stat sticks to wack together until one breaks. Rogues SHOULD have an option to avoid any fight they see first and cleric should be able to heal and tank for themselves or team.

[reef spindle]

I would say fighters have worse loot potential from most classes.
barbs are doing okey with crush talent

[tawny python]

how is that a skill gap ? cleric have more kill then wizz /

[real trellis]

Fighter has decent resourcefulness and can equip more stuff than any other class as far as I know

[remote hamlet]

And wizard is the highest skill cap class In the game

[feral rock]

The weapon trait gives Fighter so much flexibility, is what makes fighter great. And that it can block things I guess.

[feral rock]

Problem with Wizard and Cleric to some extent is how shit they are without decent gear. Making early game so brutal for them.

[reef spindle]

how strong would barb be without crush talent?
Let's say everything is balanced, double jump, achilles strike, swarm, everything

[robust bison]

cleric in low gear is meant to be a buff and heal bot

[remote hamlet]

Fighters actually have the most loot chances. Lmao
And @lunar violet you can build specific stats on any class and cater your playstyle it. Like a rogue who stacks strength instead of agility becomes quite tanky. A cleric stacking magic damage and offensive spells can out dps anyone, etc

[tawny python]

see that stat cleric have more kill then wizz he is supposed to be a support class

[remote hamlet]

Cleric is fine with no gear if you have someone to clear pve with you, you just have to really give your spells time to cast lol. Wizard on other hand is very gear dependant

[reef spindle]

what do you mean by loot chance?
barb is one of the fastest loot cleaners

[remote hamlet]

Why does a support class get locust swarm, earthquake, and judgement ? Cleric is a rounded class
@reef spindle fighter can use every weapon and 80% of armor. Barbs can use like 30% of weapons and 40% of armor

[reef spindle]

with crush being able to destroy chests and doors

cleric has the worst from all classes interaction speeds

[robust bison]

locus and earthquake are broken yeah and not really cleric spells i think more mage

[remote hamlet]

If you play with a squad none of that matters
@robust bison it is built to be a rounded class with capability to fill any role, right now it's the only healer so that what it gets labeled but it's not the case if you look at there kit. They get 2 perks for damage

[feral rock]

I would say that Barb got everything going for them besides magic resist. And as long as Wizard is as shit as it is. Barb will dominate for the most part imo

[remote hamlet]

Wizard is extremely strong if rhe person has knowledge gear and skill
Just watch jaygriffyuh

[reef spindle]

barb is best against wizards

[remote hamlet]

Demonstrably false lmao. Barb has no magic resist. Rogue is best against wizard

[feral rock]

I would say that if it closed spaces then Barb is best against rogue. Otherwise maybe best against Cleric

[remote hamlet]

Barb counter rogue if they use a hatchet. Anything with long swing times gets eaten alive by a decent rogue

[reef spindle]

barb is getting 174 magic resistance from base stats, iron will, helmet and chest piece

this is 36% magic resist

[robust bison]

i mean the spells could have been morein a holy line

[reef spindle]

game needs one more stat for health and buff and debuff duration

[remote hamlet]

I've thought about the possibility of adding a dedicated healing class but it makes no sense if your playing alone so crelic is the middleground
@reef spindle it's called strength and will

[reef spindle]

will and strength are giving too much imo

[remote hamlet]

Giving to much? Strength gives like 1 extra flat damage and 2hp. Will is only good on clerics and rogues lol

[reef spindle]

will is giving magic dmg, magic dmg resist, longer buff duration and shorter debuff duration

it is useful on all classes really
you can have longer sprint on fighter
longer smite duration on cleric
bard can have longer accelerando effect on himself

[remote hamlet]

I dont think will buffs magic damage does it?

[reef spindle]

• all the buffs from spells and potions

[feral rock]

Playing Wizard fully stocked up on good gears and tons of potions make wizard strong. But getting there is too annoying for people to play Wizard. Make it more stronger early game. Slightly weaker late game

[remote hamlet]

It barely buffs potions. For instance a 3% increase on a hp is like 1 health

[feral rock]

I personally think that potions are too good. And should take up 2x2 slots if not worn in utility slots. Would mean people take fights with more risk than just chugging 3 different health potions charge in. Kill the person and have an endless supply of potions

[remote hamlet]

It takes roughly 5 seconds to drink 3 pots

[feral rock]

Like the blacked out body parts in Tarkov meaning you can't fully heal yourself if you have taken critical damage. At least I think it would be more interesting

[remote hamlet]

Enough time for a good cleric to full buff a party, the game is balanced for 3v3. Trying to balance for every nuance situation is not going to help the game
A new crippling system would be crazy. Leg shots permanently slow until healed. Arm shots slow attack speed. Head shots slow overall agility lol

[feral rock]

Well nerfing potions would be a good way to make cleric more viable at least

[robust bison]

constitution

[feral rock]

I just think that entering a dungeon with like 20 pots is a bad way to have a game

[robust bison]

but adding more more stats means they need to think aghain abt how to put the points

[reef spindle]

str should get weight
consitution should have health and buff/debuff duration

[robust bison]

yeah but if they do add one moire stat they need to rethink everything abt the points chart of every classes

[feral rock]

Strength stat feels kinda strong. I mean as Rogue I feel like the only stats you really want is strength. More hp and more damage to an already fast hitting rogue. Just make a new stat con. Make it have the same value as strength. Then just balance it up and down depending on class. Problem with another stat is that all attributes stat gets even more value

[compact barn]

I feel most of the stats right now are actually pretty good. Separating hp from str would make it arguably the worst stat to increase unless all the other stats get things shifted off them as well

[robust bison]

again*

the pb is that they need to rethink the whole stat chart of all classes then and all attribute becomes even more worth it to have

[feral rock]

I am not saying you want to max out an hp stat. But separating it could mean that you could for example give a cleric more health without giving it more damage.

[robust bison]

i think it's just to counter act the lack of will they have tio get neutral magic dmg taken and buff/debuff mainly

[feral rock]

why would they want will over strength?

[robust bison]

????????? wtf u mean the poison talent? or u mean the rupture duration?

nah that's a bleeding rupture

[feral rock]

was not rupture fixed true damage only? Not affected by stats?

[compact barn]

Nothing against them moving hp off str. Just they'd need to swap around a lot of what the other attributes do as well to make str not the worst stat after taking hp off it.

[robust bison]

but yk that rupture duration doesn't scale with ur will but the will of ppl afected right? cuz it's a debuff not a buff

[reef spindle]

rupture doesn't deal magic damage

[robust bison]

it's not poison it's bleed

[reef spindle]

rupture does physical damage

[feral rock]

rupture did true damage. not physical or magical

[robust bison]

but it does physical dmg not magical it's the POISON TALENT that can stack upo to 5 stack that does magic dmg

[reef spindle]

it scales with physical power bonus and it grows with additional physical damage

[compact barn]

Also thought rupture was scaling with physical damage

[robust bison]

it is said that it deal physical

[feral rock]

nevermind, wiki says physical. I thought it used to say true damage

[compact barn]

"The next successful attack causes the target to bleed for 20 physical damage over 5 seconds" is what the skill says

[reef spindle]

I don't think that is true

[feral rock]

So you went from 20 to 40. Hardly see why that would one shot someone

[reef spindle]

getting 2 will from armor and having from it double damage of Rupture?
shit more scaling than wizard and cleric spells
you are mixing something man

rupture does 4dmg every second per 5 seconds

[mossy narwhal]

Iyeah hea saying that increasing the damage of the rupture from 4 to 7 nearly doubles it

[feral rock]

If it were to scale with will. I think that was not intended. No wonder why people thought crossbow+rupture were broken if thats the case

[reef spindle]

also rogue has -50% magic power bonus

so rupture would be very weak if it scaled with magic power bonus

[remote hamlet]

Hiw does 2 will double the damage ? Lol

[remote hamlet]

It was intended to scale with will the logic is you have to take will over strength or agility or find god tier gear to bring all the stats u need

[reef spindle]

#suggestion-discussion message

[remote hamlet]

He referenced 2 items. That could be up to 7-8 will with the right stats. . . . .
And he said almost doubled. Also I'd like to know he was testing the damage cuz test dummies have no armor or magic resist

[reef spindle]

#suggestion-discussion message

[compact barn]

There somewhere we can see the skill actually scaling with will? A video or post at all? I can't find anything lol

[remote hamlet]

Where were you testing the damage from just 2 will?

[feral rock]

I think Graystone is just taking trolling to a new level with his ideas

[reef spindle]

I think Graystone didn't tested it on dummies

[compact barn]

Yeah all I can find is people realizing it scales with physical power

[reef spindle]

wiki makers also were saying it was physical damage

[remote hamlet]

It was the obvious stat to take for any rogue running poison builds

[compact barn]

All I ever saw people running those for was poison damage lol

[reef spindle]

they could do it for longer hide and better poison

[remote hamlet]

Strength and move speed still the best stat on rogue prolly tho

[reef spindle]

Buff Duration -30% for starter rogues
so from 60s to 42s (hide skill)

if it was true we would have some gifs or videos about this

[feral rock]

I agree on this. I am pretty sure there would be: Insane Rogue DPS build with Willpower on youtube or something like that

[remote hamlet]

If you played the game competitively you would have seen it first hand

[feral rock]

Not saying it is false because we have not seen it. But highly unlikely as to how you describe it for sure.

[remote hamlet]

It was true. Will buffs all debuff duration meaning your posiens last longer. It's nothing to marvel about. Ppl are just bad at the game

[reef spindle]

debuff duration is stat only applied on the user

[remote hamlet]

How do u know?

[feral rock]

Highly unlikely because nobody but you "know" this

[rocky warren]

thoughts on guilds? mostly for trading and group finding. #d-and-d-suggestions message

[remote hamlet]

Will increases curse duration. Why would you want to increase curses on yourself ? Lol @reef spindle

[feral rock]

I mained rogue myself. I rarely saw dead rogues. And the ones I did mostly have movespeed/strength. Everything else just seemed bad

[reef spindle]

from wiki maker weeks ago:
"it's how long debuffs last on YOU
and getting + debuff actually makes them last longer on you
you want - debuff and the only sources of that are Will and Protection from Evil"

[remote hamlet]

From ranked boost which took wills description direct from game "Increases Spell Power, Increases Buff/Curse Duration, and Increases your Magic Resistance."

[reef spindle]

will decreases debuff duration
you really have no idea what you are talking about

[robust bison]

the poison does so having will for poison to negate the debuff on magic dmg it can be understoon honstly

[glacial walrus]

there some nonsense going around with this rogue builds. Rupture is a physical dmg skill, and scales with added physical dmg and str or not at all. Poisoned weapon deals magic damage, and scales with added magic and will.

And will based rogue is very strong. Personally ive killed people with 2-3 stabs and walk away, the poison is STRONG, but you need to get to 15-20 will and have added magic damage.

[remote hamlet]

From dark and darker "Increases Spell Power, Increases Buff/Curse Duration, and Increases your Magic Resistance."
Why would I want to increase curse duration on myself?

[reef spindle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1068515375915999293/1105131618793967678/obraz.png

[feral rock]

3 stabs is like 60 damage if low armor, 3 triple poison stack is 12 damage. rupture if 20+ damage. Yeah 92 damage kills a lot of people.

[reef spindle]

so at 0 Will you have 400% debuff duration

[robust bison]

explain me how will, a stat based on magic things, can buff the dmg iof a physical spell 💀

[glacial walrus]

@feral rock my physical damage was like 30 on dummy lol. Poison was 8-12 on first attack

[remote hamlet]

There in game description of will differs from those charts so I concede

[glacial walrus]

Yeah i think he is mixing up rupture with poisoned weapon

[reef spindle]

tell it to the Achilles Strike with Axe specialization combo

[glacial walrus]

I did. That's why I'm so confused how you seemed to have gotten a different result.

[robust bison]

it doesn't, the debuff duration stat is how long debuffs last on u, not how long debuf u deal last and debuff u deal doesn't take u buff duration stats as long as i know

[remote hamlet]

Pretty sure just cuz something is a spell doesn't mean it does magic damage

[reef spindle]

skills aren't spells

[remote hamlet]

One sec gonna load into pr!vote server and check wills definition

[reef spindle]

lul, like game has proper definitions

it was already proven multiple times
what is in game written is false
a lot of talents work different from what it is said

[glacial walrus]

Here's the video that got me interested in focusing the poisoned weapon on rogue. It exlains really well and gives some damage examples in tavern.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iNZ-kgd4Qc

[remote hamlet]

What else was described wrong? Just curious

[robust bison]

bro on dummies you see the diff between MAGIC dmg and PHYSICAL dmg, magic are purple and physical are white so if rupture is white dmg it can't be affected by will, the only thing i can trust is that buff dmg can add more duration on the debuffs u deal cuz i don't really know how it works

[reef spindle]

Axe Specialization isn't giving +5 weapon damage but +5 additonal damage

[remote hamlet]

in game menu says will improves curse duration not increases

[feral rock]

10 will. Rupture still does 4 damage each tick. Thanks for showing the video. Disproves what Graystone said

[glacial walrus]

OMG youre right, I didnt even noticed he used rupture! Lets gooooo

[remote hamlet]

so it would make sense that it is only reducing incoming debuffs and not adding extra time to poisens, @feral rock the argument was never will added damage but it added time to the poisen so it ticked more times

[reef spindle]

dude...
it is showing 28dmg before and after rupture

magic damage doesn't changes after rupture

[remote hamlet]

it was not bugged lol

throwing knifes do apply poisen?

[robust bison]

ytes

[remote hamlet]

He also had +physical damage stats on . . . .

[queen lotus]

How much will did you have

I'm half way through making a damage calculator. Most of the formulas on the wiki are wrong. Need as much concrete data as I can get

[remote hamlet]

the description of poison wepoen simply says a successful attack applies poison. why would a throwing knife not qualify as a successful attack?

[placid canopy]

works on rapier too at least

[queen lotus]

Poison applies from anything. Even fists.

[remote hamlet]

@queen lotus i can send you a server you can log into and see the base stats/spells of every class if u want

[placid canopy]

Not crossbow

[remote hamlet]

you are prolly the worst rogue in this discord (was directed at grayston) lol @placid canopy how do u know?

[queen lotus]

That I have. What I'm looking for is the backend calculations for how damage is handled.

That likely won't be revealed until way farther into that servers development when they get near completion and have reverse engineered the entire game

[remote hamlet]

source? you also claimed only daggers apply the poison lol and @queen lotus there are graphs of how armor rating scales reduction you can find

[placid canopy]

Because I'm one of the people who tests things and does math on stuff and not someone who spews nonsense for no reason

[remote hamlet]

the insult was directed @umbral lion not u @placid canopy

[feral rock]

I went for a toilet break. Is Graystone still delusional and thinks rupture work with willpower?

[remote hamlet]

throwing knifes do apply poison i thought, but i gtg for an hour. have fun debating silly little nothings everyone (>

[queen lotus]

Yeah. Those are fine.

But, for example, armor penetration. The listed formula is (100 - armor pen ) * (targets physical resistance)

That formula suggests that if you have more armor pen than the target has PDR, nothing happens beyond reducing to 0. But testing found that wasn't the case. More armor pen than the target has PDR does indeed have an effect.

[feral rock]

So you admit, we were right and you were wrong then?

Yeah, and everyone here were talking about last playtest and you argued like it was this playtest. You are just dumb and ignorant. And better off not existing in the chat. Imma just block you and never see your ignorant opinions ever again

[patent mauve]

Rupture applies to throwing knives and fists, idk about poison weapon though.

[placid canopy]

Also you should never take poison anyway. It's horrible after it got stealth nerfed

[remote hamlet]

There is no poison stab perk only poison weapon. Why would it only affect certain wepeons?

[compact barn]

This channel has deteriorated today lol

[queen lotus]

*beyond a certain gear level
To a base rogue in the starter gear, poisoned weapon is a 36% damage increase.

[patent mauve]

Poison weapon is good for cheesing wraith and skelly champ with base gear, but against anyone but another rogue it's useless.

[remote hamlet]

You just said it only affects daggers. Make it make sense

[placid canopy]

Nah never. 1.5 dmg over 3 seconds isn't doing much for you

[patent mauve]

I could've sworn I saw the poison dripping animation when holding a throwing knife.

[remote hamlet]

Read it and weap https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/116s1bb/how_do_you_feel_about_rogue_getting_the_poison/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button @umbral lion

[patent mauve]

It stacks to 4 damage a tick on mobs. That adds up to good DPS when stacking it in multiple mobs at once. Poison weapon was okay for PVE and Rogue vs Rogue.

[remote hamlet]

Op even says he was wrong

[queen lotus]

A base rogue has -17% physical damage and a 14 damage weapon. It rounds to 11 damage per hit.

Adding a 1 damage per second for 4 seconds tick to that is a 36% increase per hit landed.

[reef spindle]

from what I remember rupture, poison and weakpoint applied from any melee and throwing knives

[remote hamlet]

The second comment confirms poison procs on throwing knifes. Read the whole thread. Everyone agrees poison wepeon affects throwing knifes

[reef spindle]

handcrossbow can apply weakpoint, I think rupture aswell

[placid canopy]

it got nerfed to scaled with rogue's -50% dmg. Also rounding doesn't exist. Players have decimal hp not shown

[queen lotus]

Doesn't matter. Damage is rounded to the nearest whole number. 1 × 0.5 = 0.5.

It's rounded back to 1.

[placid canopy]

Damage is not rounded

[remote hamlet]

@umbral lion read that reddit. Everyone including the OP states that thrown wepeons apply poison wepeon. Why would 1 youtube comment trump an entire thread

[reef spindle]

we were talking about this but are you 100% sure this time?
about decimal health

[placid canopy]

Yes

[remote hamlet]

Hiw do you know ? Lol 1hp showed as 0 on the health bar in last 2 play tests

[reef spindle]

so dummies won't show it as they don't have HP

[queen lotus]

Rounding does exist. Poison will always tick for 1, assuming no magic damage bonuses.

[remote hamlet]

Why would they add a decimal hp system ? Makes absolutely no sense

[placid canopy]

It only exists for what it shows, but it still keeps track of actual decimals not shown. Dummies don't keep track of hp so they never account for this

[remote hamlet]

And how are you proving it exists ?

[placid canopy]

It was stealth nerfed to tick for 0 on the dummy with 1 stack in the last patch

[feral rock]

I feel poison damage is good early on when your weapon is trash. But you want to change it out once you get better weapon and gear overall

[placid canopy]

Cuz the poison would deal 1 every other second to a person (every third second if you had above 0 magic resistance), but showed 0 on the dummy

Poison used to have a minimum of 1 damage per tick before the most recent hotfix, but that was removed

[queen lotus]

If you're referring to the hp Stat under strength on the wiki, like a lot of their formulas, aren't accurate.

100 str ends at 207.5 because str gives 0.5hp. But, like movement speed, will only actually give you a bonus for every 2 str at that level.

Works the same way with movement speed and agility. Past 45, agility grants .5 ms per agi. But there is no decimal. So you only get a movement bonus every 2.

[remote hamlet]

Was prolly a magic resist being applied to the dummy or something

[feral rock]

could be those values has a 0,5 in the stats. But maybe only displayed by integers as they don't want half numbers?

[placid canopy]

Pre pt5, dummies actually took 10% more damage. They changed them to have exactly 0 damage reduction

[reef spindle]

believe what Red is saying
it was already discussed with other testers

[remote hamlet]

You're comprehension skills must be dog. That whole thread agrees that thrown wepeons apply perks for both fighters and rogues. They also agree traps don't apply poisen. The guy in ur video is dogwatwr who avoids every fight . . Can't take his word for anything lol

[remote hamlet]

The fact that you had a posien hitting for 0 doesn't really prove decimal hp . . It just proves your poisen somehow was ticking for less than .5 with the damage reduction applied to rogue having 5 starting will

They are both wepeons so I would assume the poison wepeon perk affects them yes

[reef spindle]

throwing knives proc poison

[placid canopy]

It proves it because it hits for 0 on a dummy but 0 or 1 every other second on a player. Dummies don't have actual hp to keep track of decimals on. The visual tick of 0 on a dummy means damage was happening, but it wasn't high enough to be 1

[feral rock]

Should be obvious by now that either he is trying to troll on a whole new level, or that his iq is subpar.

[reef spindle]

throwing knives proc weakpoint, poison and rupture

[remote hamlet]

Source: trust me bro

[opal sparrow]

Wait what happend to the suggestions?

[placid canopy]

Not sure about throwing knives myself, but 100% certain poison doesn't work with crossbow

[remote hamlet]

He didn't say anything convenient for my argument. The video showed the amount of damage he did. That was all

Cause the wepeon as in the crossbow itself doesn't contact the victim physically xD

The bolt is successfully attacking not the physical bow. . .Poison projectile however . . . .

[frosty juniper]

the bolt should be poisoned

[remote hamlet]

I agree

I'm 99% sure you can find repoze videos proving throwing knife procs poison. But I'm omw somewhere no gtg

[placid canopy]

Unless he threw a knife at a dummy you wouldn't really be able to tell unless the poison is what killed them

Makes sense to me

[granite plinth]

Suggestion for a rogue perk- Knife enthusiast: collect throwing knives you walk over or touch, add them to your utility belt.

[patent mauve]

Well I'll be sure to test this in 24hrs

[tawny python]

rounded class sure it just took the spot of of magic dealer this pt .

[tawny python]

since this your opinion i guess u didnt play the game at all 1handcrossbow with rogue perk/ability can deal alot of dmg they dont need to mele anymore .

[true kiln]

Need separate shop for leather clothes for all classes

[signal rain]

Nah a barb with a one hand counters rogue play. They have the hp to not get bursted down. And combined with the fast swinging 1 hand axe rogues only option is to run

[tawny python]

he can just poke you down with 1 hand crossbow

[compact barn]

Poke him back with throwing axes lol

[tawny python]

good luck with that 40 agility double jump mosquito .

[maiden halo]

Best counters of rogue - is warrior. Crossbow.

[compact barn]

You not wrong pepeo lol

[maiden halo]

On ruins too, just need look at top. But it's harder. Better cry like baby.

[signal rain]

It’s hard to take anything you say seriously. Your takes on game play make me think your really bad at the game. To play this game for any considerable amount of time and then still just be like rogue op and wins. Shows me your perspective is from a point of very low skill. Many many many people had no issues with rogues. And every class has a chance against them

[obtuse lichen]

are you mental

[remote hamlet]

That's only really applicable on ruins or in very short situations in crypts

[obtuse lichen]

The only annoying part about roque in pt5 was jumping on the walls in ruins thats it

[tawny python]

the most agile class in the game . with backstab +rupture weakpoint poison rupture that can be proc with 1 handcrossbow if you think a rogue will just turn of his brain and and go melee a barb then you played against weak rogue . he can poke 4 shot then he can finish you after . and many people complain over rogue this pt . the game is spoon feeding you kills .

[remote hamlet]

Poison doesn't proc on crossbow I don't think

[obtuse lichen]

hand Crossbow on the rogue was totally fine

[potent pumice]

the combo of crossbow + positioning abuse of double jump wasnt fine

[obtuse lichen]

Thats a problem with a double jump not the crossbow

[potent pumice]

they should just put double jump on a skill like the backflip instead of a perk

[tawny python]

it is with both with 1 arrow you can proc 2 ability 1 perk . with those combined you deal more dmg then 1 shoot from a longbow .

[remote hamlet]

Learn to play crypts and double jump loses 80% of its viability . . .

[remote hamlet]

Double jump is balanced for high level pvp - it is broken against noobs on ruins. Learn the game and you don't have to complain anymore

[tawny python]

there is spot to double jump on top of door / arena jump etc .. people will find about them .

[obtuse lichen]

Imagine playing on the roque with and using 2 attacks skills just to deal 50 damage every 30 seconds when archer can do the same without it and no cd

[potent pumice]

double jump gives access to a lot of rapier cheesing spots for PVE also

[obtuse lichen]

Btw good luck dealing damage with rupture and weakpoint to cleric

[remote hamlet]

They leave you trapped in small spaces when your there . . . . . We know about them lol

[remote hamlet]

Rogues and wizards will hold a spot in the top groups due to invis and magic damage. Double jump gives rogues a fighting chance vs any long drinking wepeons and fireballs

[obtuse lichen]

idk how this guy jumps from hand crossbow to double jump every message

[tawny python]

thats literally what they do in hr .

[obtuse lichen]

Dude show me how to do it

[potent pumice]

Double jump also gives a lot of shortcut pathing in the colosseum circle

[maiden halo]

Oh no, rouge use shortcuts!

[tawny python]

even without dj they can outrade anyone mele with 35 agility .

[obtuse lichen]

yeah but its most squishy and gear dependable class in the game

[remote hamlet]

Lol watchout he's jumping up 270 west

[obtuse lichen]

Rogue is like a 3rd most skill based class in the game

[tawny python]

at least when they get caught they die . rogue need to be corned by 4 walls 3 people

[remote hamlet]

Wizard > rogues > cleric > hunter

For HR pvp purposes/skill gap capacity

[tawny python]

oi mate go read the stat 🤓 dont make fun of yourself .

[dusky field]

TH is a hunter

[obtuse lichen]

@remote hamlet Cant really say that cleric is a really skill based only because all you need to do on him is just hitscan with the spells

Mb because i played 2 much cleric and know whats up

[potent pumice]

just make the judgement failcast

[patent mauve]

Never used judgment, too easy, Holy Purification all day. They should just make judgement go on a short cooldown when you attempt to cast it and they move out of range.

[obtuse lichen]

It goes on cd when opponent moves out
i also use other skills sometimes
holy purification is the king to lvl quickly on the fresh cleric

[potent pumice]

holy purification + pyramid is the most satisfying thing to do

[obtuse lichen]

Yes

[patent mauve]

Yeah and the center of most small-medium rooms have a sweet spot to hit most mobs at once, so satisfying as a solo cleric.

[potent pumice]

the other room i can think of is the room with the chest in the middle and the wraith downstairs if you know which room im talking about
so many skeletons in that room

[compact barn]

Judgement just needs a projectile

[patent mauve]

Yeah so many juicy spots, one of my favorites is the gem room with the skeleton champion, I just aggro all the mobs and stand on the staircase bonking them.

[placid canopy]

You really should learn how the math works cuz this is just wrong on top of cooldowns vs no cooldowns

[patent mauve]

The longsword video today was fire, and also hard agree it should be a skill shot, or at the very least have 1-2 charges that need to be restored by resting imo.

[compact barn]

Glad you watched and enjoyed man. And even adding a limited amount of uses could be a good way to balance it out. So it's not readily available for extended fights/back to back encounters

[patent mauve]

Im coping so hard, by the 9 divine this game better release tomorrow.
Also give us magic shield potions!!
At the very least a potion with %magical damage reduction for 15-20 seconds similar to the protection shrine.

[feral rock]

Considering how underwhelming magic was in playtest 5, I don't hope they add magic resist potions. Just seems like would make barb even more broken

[patent mauve]

I'm sure the warlock is gonna have magic debuffs that make you take more magic/physical damage. Magic damage is strong late game. A full round of magic missile with a basic spell book and +6 magic damage across the kit deals 200-400 DMG if they all hit body or headshots.

[lone crescent]

For me protection pot should work for magic too

[potent pumice]

the first time i played the game, i thought protection pot was working for all source of damage, (zone excluded)
then i read the description and saw only physical

[lone crescent]

Makes sense that a magical shield blocks all damage

It's fair to make them block magic too for balance purpose, you have no way to mitigate damage coming from a wizard

[lone crescent]

First time i played the game i thought the movespeed penalty was active for the duration of the shield and i thought they were trash lol

[potent pumice]

i was mostly thinking shields as shield of League of Legend, because in league we have 3 types of shield, the "white" for all type of damage / "orange" for physical and "purple" for magical damage
and most shields in LoL are white type, so i assumed the same in Dark and Darker

[patent mauve]

I hope we can harvest the bowels from zombies and make fart bombs, 10/10

[remote hamlet]

Holy Light is projectile not hitscan, and just cause lesser heal and protect are hitscan doesn't mean it's easy to play lol

[robust bison]

I agree i did used it until i was 15

[pale kindle]

casters should apply magic shield to target, sort of different color bubble that is used to protect against wizardry and other sources of witchcraft

[robust bison]

To cast it u need to be rly close and if he leaves the range it fizzle

[robust bison]

Agreed

[robust bison]

Agreed if ur mate move at the moment unsend the buff/heal and dies cuz of that he'll just trash u and say "worst peel ever got" or things lile that 💀

[hasty sedge]

anyone knowing when suggestion page will be opened?

[fierce relic]

i hate rogues. no constructive argument. just hate. gameplay was better when they ware just meme build for pick pocketing and jump scaring noobs not dominating pvp

[hasty vigil]

weird

[brittle jasper]

Amen, hate all dex builds in every game

[fierce relic]

its the only class that can choose when to engage in pvp on their on terms and leave when ever they want and heal/ hide and continue the fight if they have to upper hand

[patent mauve]

EA soon

[brittle jasper]

they should have a major disadvantage when the enemy is aware of them but guess what no they don't because screw you rouge players want to feel strong in a 1 vs 1 anyway

[patent mauve]

I love seeing rogue become hated after they were deemed a weak class.

[pallid sleet]

Rogue was strong in pt 4, people just sucked at it, it got buffs it didnt need at all

[fierce relic]

they have most op ability to go invisible and best mobility and high dps... if they know what they are doing the pvp is always on their terms.

its just cheesy and ratty and eazy to hate 😄

i hope DaD is not trying to be esports and make everything equally balanced, because there is no way to make rogue competitive in endgame without it being cheesy. it should be a challenge to play a rogue.

[patent mauve]

Facts I had a high extraction rate with rogue in PT4, the doublejump was not needed, I actually stopped playing rogue at level 12 in PT5 because of how forgiving it was.

[patent mauve]

Games shouldn't be solely balanced around the highest levels of play.. majority of people aren't good players and that's just a fact.

[fierce relic]

i felt dirty playing rogue in ruins... with not much experience as rogue before. just keep the sweetspot distance with crossbow... nad make them panic

[compact barn]

The devs have said in the past fun comes first. As long as things aren't oppressive and ruining the game they'll keep them in as long as they're fun. Which is prolly why double jump will be in the game in some form forever now lol

[patent mauve]

The challenge with rogue is the lack of survivability, they can die to one well geared fireball or zap. Players make the rogue difficult to be successful with, the problem is the game is new and people aren't quick to adapt. I lost a kit and a skeleton key as a rogue to a good team with a crackshot ranger and I'm not even mad, I deserved it for not booking it at the first sound of footsteps..

[spice zephyr]

As long as a rogue can randomly choose to be a public nuissance and kinda succed, it's gonna be annoying

[glacial sphinx]

rogue is not meaningfully more squishy to wizards than most other stuff except barbs

[queen lotus]

Rogues having glass bones and paper skin means one misstep and you could be instantly dead. It happened to me a couple times picking the wrong fight with barbs who one shot me.

[dusky field]

Happened a similar thing to me playing Wizard against a Barb.

[patent mauve]

Once people realize how good clerics are against rupture and poison damage ticks the community will heal 🥴

[spice zephyr]

When you think about it, barb, fighter and cleric have little means of trolling, ranger can be nuisance shooting at people, wizard can do a fair bit of trolling but it's hard to get to the point of being able to troll and then you have rogue and bard, bard can just pacify you and mic spam or whatever, and rogue, if put enough mind to it, can and will be the biggest nuissance simply by jumping around, shooting arrows and throwing explosives at people while constantly escaping

[glacial sphinx]

no class in Dark and Darker has been easier to succeed with than last PT's rogue, it was absolute journalist mode. And they were very easy to succeed with in playtests before that as well, probably one of the easiest to extract on when starting out

[dusky field]

!playtest

😦

[lucid root]

Busted, right out of the box

[abstract swallow]

Rogue having better treasure stats than pre-nerf Ranger tells you all you need to know about how easy it was to play them, that's well established by everyone not coping their brains out inevitable Rogue nerfs.

[lucid root]

Fastest way to progress as wizard was playing rogue and transferring gold and gear over

[abstract swallow]

unironically the best way to fund a Fighter since PT3 is to just play a solo Ranger, so that's nothing new

[patent mauve]

The rogue needs mobility nerfs, but also we need magical interaction speed implemented, that will nerf rogues and rangers SO hard on release.

[spice zephyr]

The long term of this game is to help streamers transfer stuff and once they trust you enough, get out with a fortune. No trust in the dungeon, no trust outside the dungeon

[lucid root]

20k people watching me scam

[spice zephyr]

What of it? Make an expendable twitch account and it's not like they show your account name, just character name

[patent mauve]

Thats diabolical lol
I'm for an in game bank that you pay 1 silver coin to move in individual stash items. That way a level 1 can't grab items without at least finding some coins first. Make silver coins non-tradable or stashable.

[spice zephyr]

I never did it, but I was at one point trusted with like 3k worth of items to transfer, streamers trust their audience way too easily

[patent mauve]

Then there's some value to silver coins that isn't just 8 gold per stack of 25 kinda deal.

[fierce relic]

pt4 was a better game then pt5

ignoring ddos and torrent

[lucid root]

I think pt5 provided more valuable info actually

But yeah pt4 as a game was better

[spice zephyr]

I didn't find it all that different, other than the fact that the game is heading into the direction of maximising damage dealt before actually commiting, there was not much I can complain about(maybe the 1 deleted door from goblin cave, but it wasn't all that impactful to me), the rest spell restore is kinda busted and I wish for more impactful spell management, but it wasn't all that bad

[spiral spindle]

That's why they reverted back to most of pt4 👌

[spice zephyr]

Did actually anyone complain about the goblin cave changes?

[patent mauve]

Yeah the rest mechanic was a tad bit too strong, my cleric could sit in the zone the entire time, just cast a sanctuary or lesser heal and sit back down.

[spice zephyr]

Like, the new passageways seem to be well appreciated and no one finds flaws with the minor changes other than bats existing, bats please stop existing. I hate bats why are they so tanky, I could easier dropkick a child than hit a bat once

[fierce relic]

they only got better with few more passages

[abstract swallow]

PT4 was a lot more playable for obvious reasons (PT4 being PT3 with superficial additions nonwithstanding), but I definitely preferred PT5 and think it was a lot more meaningful as an actual test

[fierce relic]

depends what wep he is using. it might be hard vs horsemans axe or hatchet but if u get hit by any 2handed u made a mistake as a rogue

[spice zephyr]

I hate horseman axe barbarians, please eat black licorice if you play barb like that

[fierce relic]

i do... felling axe is too high stakes if u miss 😄

[patent mauve]

I used to no scope on COD and Halo, I can hit a francisca axe.

[fierce relic]

horsemans axe is no brainer W and left click. my main is not barb tho

[patent mauve]

Just loot one pyramid room and you will have 5 stacks of axes ready for rogues, in PT4 I sold tons of green axes to cheeky barb abusers.

Pathing is everything in video games, know where to be, know where to throw.

The great thing about this game is the variation, you can fight in a big open room, or control choke points in narrow hallways, it's all about being prepared for anything. Just delete the rogue and then everyone complains about wizards invis and rangers traps

[fierce relic]

yeah i rather complain about traps and wiz if rogues just didnt exist 😄

[patent mauve]

He has to hit the ground at some point. Wait for the jump, I hit T-knife cams in cod for breakfast.

[fierce relic]

rogues are playing different game than everyone else

[compact barn]

Blue crypts is the superior crypts

[spice zephyr]

True, just like how blue waffles are superior to the normal ones

[hasty vigil]

it really was... you could see all the details you can't normally see. it was beautiful

[patent mauve]

Need that 3 layer beefy burrito map though, with a blue crypt yes.

[hasty vigil]

i thought crypts was a new map that's how much more detail you could see

[queen lotus]

nah. stabbed him from behind and he panic attacked. the attack animation starts from behind so I got hit instantly.
I imagine this will become the meta tech in time.

[pallid sleet]

blue crypt 50% of the time

[spice zephyr]

Return the 3 torch system and then for all I care, the dungeons could be completely black

[queen lotus]

well yes. daggers are small.

[patent mauve]

I'd like for a map with the old spawns to exist, I kinda like spawning on the edge and moving towards the center. There's parts of the map I haven't spawn by in like 30 runs.

[hasty vigil]

you need to be with daggers

[fierce relic]

no other game interests me anymore since i played dad... is this nomal ?

[hasty vigil]

welcome. have a seat

[spice zephyr]

I found some solace in playing enter the gungeon with the worst character on turbo mode while trying to kill the hardest boss. Roguelikes are the way

[patent mauve]

I thought it was a performance issue, cuz you can buy stacks of them and toss like 50 torches in the final ring.

[spice zephyr]

I am ashamed that I never tried that

[patent mauve]

There's a few videos of people spamming torches, wasnt a widespread thing.

[spice zephyr]

Throw 10 torches into 1 spot, turns into a campfire, issue solved

[patent mauve]

LOL a wizard makes due

[fierce relic]

too much going on on screen for me. my old eyes can only track 3 moving objects at a time.

[spice zephyr]

Understandable, even casual bullet hells are tough to learn. You could try darkest dungeon and dd2, but I doubt it will fill you with thrill considering that is more strategic than action

[patent mauve]

I hope wizard gets some love in EA, I enjoyed playing it, but I feel like it should start with a darker grey spell book(1-2MD) and rondel dagger in it's starter kit imo.

[reef spindle]

Have anyone seen black ?

casual 129dmg on headshot

[fierce relic]

they will change it im sure

[patent mauve]

Yeah my first almost escape in the blue crypts, purple loot out the wazoo, and then THWACK ended as soon as my portal opened.

I spent a few games just camping a center room with crossbowmen waiting for free loot.

[fierce relic]

they will give that crossbow to rogues

[patent mauve]

Once we get Necro spells that's the first complaint we'll hear.

[fierce relic]

necromancer ?

[patent mauve]

Yeah people controlling crossbowmen is gonna be chaotic

[fierce relic]

ill just go back to goblin caves then

[remote hamlet]

This necros not getting added ever most likely

[remote hamlet]

Change what nightmare skeleton heads hot damage?

[patent mauve]

I don't see why we wouldn't get a Necro, or necromancy spells for cleric and wizards.

[fierce relic]

idk but there is so much complaints about xbow skeleton that is become a meme. in HR stats wasn't it the most common pve death ?

[remote hamlet]

Was like top 3

[patent mauve]

Footman still reign supreme

[fierce relic]

in HR nr 1

forgotten castle

[compact barn]

Footman the goat

[patent mauve]

It's 8:18 in Korea rn, by the 9

[dusky field]

If it's just Graysun saying "hi" at 9 I'll be happy. That being said, we need the durability system implemented to deal with inflation

[patent mauve]

definitely needs a bigger gold sink for higher level players, but I think when gear is more rare to find, the candy trading will help that.

[sick cloud]

they desperately need to buff double jump, at this point in th egame its not worth wasting anything on double jump, i think it eitehr needs a rework to a short tp or triple jump. it is sadly not viable which is a shame as its such a cool ability.

[fierce relic]

🤮

[sick cloud]

bros clearly never played the game

[fierce relic]

i just hate rogue with passion

rogue shouldn't be in endgame its a meme class

[sick cloud]

exactly it desperatly needs a buff to be more in line with the other classes
which is why i beleive a double jump buff and a longer invisability is the smartest way to buff

or add an execution when the openent gets below a certain health gate

[compact barn]

Nerf rogues into rouges

[hasty vigil]

yea why does wizard have the wayyyyy better stealth

nerf wiz, buff rogue, delete barb, buff bard

[sick cloud]

woah wizard is weak as shit and bard is broken

[fierce relic]

sorri i didn't sense the sarcasm 😄 drunk af

[sick cloud]

like legit u should really play th egame before you start trying to stir shit

[sick cloud]

no sarcasm here

[hasty vigil]

for real, people who played multiple playtests agree rogue is fine needs buffs

[sick cloud]

yea i agree for the most part its a good class however i beleive it hasa some issues at its core for example

its abilitys not directly benefitting the playstyle the game encourages

[fierce relic]

than fu all rogues must die

[sick cloud]

bro i dont even play rogue

[fierce relic]

rogues and wizards play difernet game than everyone else. wizard has high skill cap. rogue is too cheesy

[abstract swallow]

Rogue can have a very high skillcap due to their mobility and anti-intel potential, allowing them to make incredibly exploitive plays that can cripple other teams outright.

Unfortunately, they don't ever really need to do this outside of straight-up faceroll teamfights. Most of their solo/advantage combats just boils down to "press cooldowns, get free damage, kite, repeat"

[sick cloud]

clearly just trying to suck the game devs dicks

[hasty vigil]

wizard legit is the better stealth class. what skill is there in casting haste invis and being able to sprint behind people

[sick cloud]

the devs made a mistake tey just need to fix it, its all good

[hasty vigil]

then there's fireball. just yeet it into a room without any aiming required

[sick cloud]

yea they need to remove fire balls aoe

[hasty vigil]

💯

[compact barn]

There some absurd trolls in these chats today lol

[quick blade]

Just your standard rogue player by the looks of it.

[sick cloud]

i dont even play rogue im a cleric main

[warm spoke]

everyone keeps saying nerf rouge double jump and I just think if you can't move your cursor slightly upwards that's a skill issue and not a mechanical gameplay issue

[compact barn]

Nah double jump too good. Rather see rogues get extended amount of footsteps during invis and being able to use half of them while at full speed rather than walking. Double jump legitimately doesn’t feel like it fits at all

[sick cloud]

honestly thats not the issue its the fact its nt versatile

maybe give it more control mid air or make it a triple jump

[hasty vigil]

[dusky field]

All the videos of 1h crossbow rogue doublejump... Yeah, no. If you don't think it's way too overpowered, then you haven't been playing Rogue properly. It's so extremely easy to cheese wins with that thing now.

Pretty much I'd say the opposite, playing Rogue and not getting ez wins to the point that it's obvious that it's overpowered... is a skill issue.

[glacial walrus]

I agree until you see rogue on the ruins map. They basically had the ability to play on a different dimension - skip mobs, doors, players, and no one else can get to you. Now on the regular crypt and even goblin caves, there's not too many places double jump can get you that other classes can't also at least reach with a sword + jump.

[sick cloud]

yea they need to change it to a tripple jump or a short teleport its hnestly disgusting how shit it is, they need to fix this and quickly

[fierce relic]

🫃

[abstract swallow]

there are very few non-hallway rooms in Crypts (namely Prison, Wizzie Halls, 3Square, and all of the long catacombs) where you can't stay out of reach with almost full uptime, and even if they do hit you it's still a forced limb hit

[tough hemlock]

i doubt people will see this but they need to change double jump from a perk, to a skill, which would come with a cooldown, and would force rouge players to choose between mobility and damage

[ripe haven]

Naw rogues in alright spot, just change the double jump to a dash, with no extra verticality ez

[rancid pebble]

Ive heard more talk about the no verticality stuff and it would be cool, but for balance reasons I still think they should combine it with tumble as a skill. Forwards tumble is a double jump with 10 second cooldown, backwards or s key tumble is the tumble

[twilit thistle]

most normal sane take on double jump

[hasty vigil]

worst suggestion ever. double jump skill... yikes

[abstract swallow]

they should probably keep double jump out until there's more overall mobility ready to be implemented, but otherwise just slap on:
18~24s Cooldown
Can't be used while slowed/hitslow'd
Slip timers on props/wall decorations/truly inaccessible locations & tune up map design to be less exploitable
and it's fairly balanced
right now there's just 0 counterplay to it and it's completely exclusive, and the two combined take it from 'unfair' to 'absolutely gamebreaking'

[gaunt badger]

yeah, because IronMace came up with it rather than Nexon. This is the type of content we have to look forward to 🙂

[hasty vigil]

skill, not perk, troll

[tawny python]

every dj -8 hp fall dmg

[granite plinth]

https://garticphone.com/en/?c=0140d87805 we playin some dark and darker drawing game join quick

[stiff atlas]

here's my suggestion: while in lobby/stash/trade, while hovering over any item, holding shift will let you see the possible stat range of a given item.
ie. Rondel dagger blue with 23 damage. while hovering + shift, show its possible damage range of 21-24
1 additional weapon damage (1-3)
2 agility (1-3)
lets us know how good an item COULD be

[fiery ledge]

I'd change that. Make it for trade as well. Gives people the right to see how much they're being lied to about the "rolls" of the purchase, otherwise, definitely an upvote from me.

[abstract swallow]

very reasonable suggestion, I dig it

[quiet cedar]

id love to see a vr version of the game, i wanna bonk some gobbos and use the body as a weapon >:), it would need a vr specific queue tho

[clear egret]

When starts the new Playtest or Beta ?

[stiff atlas]

between today (may 9th 2023) and the year 2100

[shadow fern]

how do I make a suggestion? I have an idea for an AoE 10-15metre targetable wizard spell which will temporary turn all doorways (broken or otherwise) into a wall for 3-5 seconds

also curious on your thoughts

[tawny python]

its closed rn .

[shadow fern]

OK thanks, you're welcome to answer also

[grim fiber]

It would sound broken to stop people pathing tho, maybe with an internal cd for each door would make sense, but I feels would be a little too much or too useless in Ruin

[graceful frost]

no

[abstract dirge]

you think that's a fun mechanic?

[grim fiber]

No fun at all, just an interesting one, but i feel it would be just stupid, people would end up blocking people outside of deadzone, so no i don't think it would be fun

[abstract dirge]

they're blocked and can literally do nothing about it, that's just ...

(so I agree with you on that regard, onto the next suggestion I guess!)

[shadow fern]

OK but respectfully calling something stupid isn't really productive

and the point would be to stop people when chasing or being chased, yes

[grim fiber]

Sorry i didn't mean stupid in the sense that is bad, it would be STUPIDLY STRONG IMHO

[shadow fern]

there is already lots of stupid strong stuff, thats why you talk to discuss balance, I wouldn't say everything in every game is perfectly balanced

[grim fiber]

Imagine that in the labyrynth zone approching and a trio mage casting on you while you start criyng and the dark became darker...

[grim fiber]

Agree, but something that mutate terrain and maps is always a no (for me) except rare case, but who knows, i think it would be more frustating than fun

[shadow fern]

I mean you can already break doors with 2 classes, changing the timing to 1.5 effect second and the fact you have to precast in choice of another spell. also there are spells in here because they're in dungeons and dragons, nothing to do with balance to begin with,that gets fixed later,a lot of skills in this game come straight from dungeons and dragons class fantasy

[somber forge]

[woeful mantle]

This may not be related but, the longer you take on development, the higher the quality your game will be upon release, please take your time on it, it would be so worth it if you spent 1 more year on this game, then you really will have a high quality game, please take your time, there is no rush, even if supporters say that they want it now, just take your time

[mossy vortex]

Very important: Don't release a potential early access version near the release of Diablo 4. The playerbase is to similiar and both games have a "grinding" potential so people will have to decide which one they gonna play.

[worn lava]

make the outside waiting area specific for the outside map and the bar bring it back for the inside dungeons i think that would make sense atleast it does to me and i just miss the bar and it would be cool to see some more interactable animals and maybe make a sign next to them no hitting cause damn those players who be trying hit them 😡

[rugged pilot]

not important

[abstract swallow]

nah that's a very reasonable statement, DaD has a lot of overlap with ARPG audiences

if my friends hop straight into D4/PoE2 then I'm 100% gonna spend time playing with them instead of joining a fresh wipe

[rugged pilot]

Like any real fans of this game will choose Diablo 4 over this

and even then, why would they care if both are releasing close together if both games are gonna be permanently available

[abstract swallow]

gonna go out of my way here to assume that "the most famous ARPG franchise of all time" has a little more staying power than "obscure korean dungeon crawler with no store page"

[obtuse lichen]

D4 more like milking4

[rugged pilot]

Then theres no concern

if they are no lifing Diablo 4 then they have no time for other games or Dark and Darker

btw Diablo 4 is already expected to be a massive letdown and flop

[obtuse lichen]

cant trust blizzard after all they did

[solar sorrel]

Make a new legendary weapon thats Mjolnir hammer/Thors hammer, make it slow but with a lot of damage for fighter and barbarian

[remote hamlet]

Why would you choose a recycled game from a dying studio over this option? Lol get better at crypts

[grim fiber]

Im pretty sure almost everyone here would prefere DaD, but not everyone in the world, he made a fair point if we want this game to succeed

[remote hamlet]

Ppl who would rather play Diablo don't take this game serious

[grim fiber]

I know, but let people pay the devs

[twilit thistle]

D4 looks like straight booty juice bruh. How did we go from like 8 classes to play down to 5. They are going to mtx and dlc milk the hell out of that game.

[lone crescent]

They want to be a game as service, they will constantly add things

Diablo focus mostly on PvE, i will always pick a PvP game over a PvE

If they want to get the best out of the launch of the game then this delay could actually help them, there's another Diablo beta coming, release after that is better imho

[dusky field]

But this game isn't completely focused on pvp. This isn't mordhau 2.0. They wanna make a dungeon crawling game, meaning most of the gameplay loop is going around getting loot and sometimes fighting other players.

[twilit thistle]

The fighting of players is a significant portion of every match you can’t get around though, the pve is just there for loot and to slow down the potential PvP encounters and add spice

[lone crescent]

PvE only in this kind of games is boring for me, i like this game for PvP

Sure pve is fine but it isn't the main focus, or at least is equally distributed

[ripe haven]

i cant play any diablo games that dont have open battlenet. its just wrong.

[stray stone]

I think the axe skeleton should be nerfed. It's speed and range of attack are too far and there are often situations where it is not very feasible to get in even a single attack without taking damage

[white cliff]

Yeah the intense pve experience of standing and hitting. WoW patented technology.

[dusky field]

Yeah I guess you haven't been paying attention to what vision the devs have for the game. Dungeon crawling brother, their words, not mine.

[white cliff]

Do you also shill for a pve only game mode I wonder?

[nimble stream]

how about we remove the slowmode, its pissing me off. severely

[obtuse lichen]

no

[nimble stream]

i just had graysun agree to it, bozo

[obtuse lichen]

no

[nimble stream]

you're a bozo

[obtuse lichen]

no

[nimble stream]

oki, sorry

[obtuse lichen]

no

[dusky field]

No, but I love how quickly you jump to conclusions. You have the thinking skills of a toddler. I've already proposed a way in which dungeon crawling would be encouraged in the way the devs wanted it, while keeping most of the pvp we've all grown accustomed to. And most people seemed to agree with it

[serene jackal]

What do you guys think of a covenant system similar to dark souls 1 where players enter covenants with deities and engage in jolly cooperation or mortal combat. Players that become more invested in their covenant unlock cosmetic options to show their devotion.

[dusky field]

I think people really don't care about the devs trying to make a dungeon crawling game. Wtf are these suggestions

[white cliff]

Stay mad lmao.

[ripe haven]

i would be really cool with this. i always wanted a game where i could pursue an adversary across *matches.

[patent mauve]

The trick is sidestepping, if you get to close to them the axe and spearmen do sideswipe attacks, you have to keep a certain distance and bait out the poke and overhead swings before coming in for a counter attack.

The current PVE is pretty good, theres always a looming threat of players but you can usually avoid PVP entirely and make it out with loot.
Rat cleric gang rise up.

[shy shoal]

will the mechanic to laydown to prone position be considered for DaD, great for hiding and pvp

[hasty sedge]

really?

[shy shoal]

yes really

[hasty sedge]

seems like it wouldnt do much for the overall gameplay due to how most champions need to fight while standing and those who would be able to lay down would only be able to do so with crossbows and if your talking about hiding as a rogue then there is the camo spell and or potions that already fill that niesh

[dusky field]

As long as it takes a really long time to get back up, I'm alright with it. I don't want another ambush mechanic, I've had enough of people going invisible and making it impossible to have a fight or at the very least to not get ambushed in every room

[shy shoal]

i guess you make a valid point

[shy shoal]

getting ambushed is the best part?

[dusky field]

No? I'm tired of rogue mechanics. This isn't hide and seek god damn it

[shy shoal]

its not a rogue mechanic, it just a human mechanic

[hasty sedge]

DnD is the only hardcore fps that i have played which doesnt reward campy stealth playstyle i mean yes rogues exist but they are also countered by babarians and fighters as well as overall using sound and good pathfinding through the ruins, this is in my opinion due to first of all the zone and the dangerous ai compaired to games such as hunt and warzone where it up to the amount of meds and postioning

[patent mauve]

Cleric is gonna fly under the radar for sure.

[fickle plover]

Rogues shouldn't have an ability that makes them invisible. They are a stealthy class, and stealth is not invisibility.

[robust bison]

stealth in pvp is both being invisible and using the area at ur advantage

cuz u r not an npc so seeing someone crouching doesn't make him invisible at ur eyes and u ear the footsteps, you have a brain (normally)

[fickle plover]

Stealth is not, has never been being invisible. Not in DnD, not in real life, ever.

[dusky kernel]

How would you propose making rogues stealthy?

[twilit thistle]

Well it’s hard to simulate in game but I always felt like rogue invis is total bullshit in every game. It’s fun to do, zero fun to play against. Same in DaD, same in wow, same anytime someone turns invisible and gets to dictate their encounters

[dusky kernel]

With people adjusting their monitors [to see in the dark], I understand why games go true invisibility.
Perhaps it should go between true invisibility and highly translucent depending on lighting

[hasty sedge]

i understand what your saying but at the same time the whole point of rogue is ambush and gurrilla tactics

[dusky kernel]

I think it’s also valid to point out it’s possible for the mechanics to be improved upon

[queen lotus]

Every class can turn completely invisible. Invisibility potion.
Rogues just get one free invis pot every 45s is effectively what it boils down to.

[twilit thistle]

An invis pot….that you can move with….and get bonus damage out of

[quick blade]

The get a free blue invis pot every 45 seconds and can move a short distance while invis.

[fickle plover]

Items that everyone can use shouldn't also be a skill, that's just poor game design through redundancy. Also, skills should center around what the class does, and Rogues stealth. Invisibility is not stealth.

[latent tundra]

Im surprised I dont see rogues poppin invis pots before fights for bonus dam, ig its only 3 seconds tho so kinda annoying to time

[tough hemlock]

and im a rouge main xD, its broken asf and needs to be nerfed, people are just angry that they wont be able to run away from every fight if double jump gets nerfed

[tough hemlock]

a lot of people dont run ambush, theres other perks that work better

rouge was fine before the last playtest imo, but this last playtest double jump was a little broken and annoying to fight against

[latent tundra]

Ya I didnt rock hide at all, weakpoint and rup

Its crazy to me that barbs still rock 2h

Did magic dam scale with poison in pt4?

[patent mauve]

Wizards can make anyone go invisible and move while also giving a 5% speed boost add in haste and it's 12%
Rogues can't break down doors so they're effectively stuck in a room with you if you close the door.
Rogues can't deal with geared clerics barbarians or fighters in head on fights.
Ranger can track rogues footsteps and hear them from a safer distance.
I mained rogue for every playtest but the last one because double jump and hand crossbow made the rogue overtuned.
Rogue DJ needs a cooldown and hand crossbows should deal less damage or not apply rupture and weak point. Then rogue will be fine.

[tough hemlock]

it could all be solved by changing double jump to a skill instead of a perk, so rouge players would have to choose between mobility and damage. and if double jump was a skill, it would come with a cooldown like every other skill

[latent tundra]

Its hilarious watching people engage as rogue just to waste their cd’s on missing with a handcrossbow

[tough hemlock]

and this would also be a great way to make rouge not be so broken imo

[compact barn]

Rogues are dealing with geared everything just fine in straight up fights lol especially with hand crossbows and double jump now

[queen lotus]

Change DJ to a dash pls. I wanna be mobile in combat, not mobile while cruising around the map

[compact barn]

Rogue be slapping everyone around last play test mobility op and mobility with ranged option op too

[tough hemlock]

i feel like the thing that lets you roll should be more of a dash

[latent tundra]

The biggest thing is being able to land a hit with a rapier and being able to get away whenever you want, and the hit does a shit ton with rup and weakpoint

[patent mauve]

Yeah the ruins map was a rogues playground, really hope they change double jump and don't just nerf the vertical parts of the map.

[tough hemlock]

rouges are supposed to have higher mobility but i feel as if the double jump was not planned out well enough

[hardy onyx]

u clearly have not met a geared squad of fighter / ranger / cleric holding the middle room in highroller xD

[compact barn]

I’d really still rather them scrap double jump and go all in on the invis mechanic personally. Remove the invis limit of walking and let them run for during invis or for part of the invis at least

[latent tundra]

The clear on rogue is nutty too with cheesing ai, double jump should prolly just not be in the game. I think rogue has enough tools to be strong without it

[tough hemlock]

and these are the type of ideas which would make the game unfun

[compact barn]

Game felt way too arcadey watching rogues bounce in the air. Looked dumb as hell

[tough hemlock]

like i said, its as if double jump was not planned out and tested enough

[latent tundra]

How is removing a broken mechanic unfun. The game doesnt need to be very balanced at all but stuff like achilles and double jump is pretty dumb

[tough hemlock]

did you not read the message?

[latent tundra]

Ya he’s saying to push other vectors of the class rather than mobility

[tough hemlock]

"Remove the invis limit of walking and let them run for during invis or for part of the invis at least"

so you want to be fighting rouges who can walk around invis for 45 seconds?

[latent tundra]

People have suggested longer footstep limit, I think it could be good but anything higher than 15 would be crazy. You already get good distance on 10

[patent mauve]

There's a few broken mechanics already in the game, I don't think people know the strength of the utility in the game, until it stabs you literally in the back. We all have access to invis, rogue players are the only ones that abuse it.

[compact barn]

I see nothing wrong with it. Let rogues move full speed for half steps of invis. Considering you can hear footsteps from invis players you can still track them well. Way better than the goofy double jump

[hasty sedge]

totally agree as long as they dont change the fondations of the gameplay since if it somehow becomes rainbow six siege v2 i will be sad

[tough hemlock]

if anything, if there going to go down the mobility route they should swap out the ability to double jump with an ability that just lets you jump higher, and add a cooldown on to it, that would have been a much better approach to what they were trying to accomplish

[patent mauve]

Doublejump needs a long cooldown 30-45s and to be an active skill so it's value is better represented. I think double jump active makes you double jump for 3-5 seconds would fix this issue.

[tough hemlock]

and this would also remove the buggy strafing you can do as of last playtest

[ripe haven]

Imo any and all damage reduction should cap at 75% max.