suggestion-discussion

[spice zephyr]

That is a censer

[restive drum]

Are we forgetting there adding a warlock class and theres a hell floor what are u guys on about

[granite plinth]

OH LIT

[fierce relic]

sorry... im metalhead. i dont belive in anything, but roleplaying as templar makes me hard 😄

[granite plinth]

Your good shawty

they should add a musket.

[spice zephyr]

Yeah and it should work only in the ruins map since all the other maps are too humid for blackpowder to reliably burn

[glacial sphinx]

Musket in fantasy setting? blasphemy imo

[dusky field]

They should ban you from making suggestions and from the suggestion discussion section

[granite plinth]

it was a joke bruh

[spice zephyr]

Rod of Ascelpius would probably be a named item and not a normal magic casting tool for a cleric, right?

Maybe some bead necklace, like a rosary without the cross/specific beads

[fierce relic]

👍

[spice zephyr]

I also kinda wish that clerics could cast spell with bare hands

Since well, majority of religions include hand gestures in their prayers

[fierce relic]

same. but how to balance it?

[spice zephyr]

Just make it slow af, it doesn't have to be fast since it's the mose barebone method, eventually you could add a signet if you want to keep it limited to items

[spiral spindle]

Maybe just like a prayer they would still fold their hands or something so they can't swing and cast at the same time and I guess you lose stats or spell damage for not using a staff/book so not sure if it would be even worth it tho

[lucid root]

Suggestion bot done broke

[spice zephyr]

Yep

Feel free to post your suggestion here so I can take uncredited inspiration

Damn, the idea machine is working again

[lucid root]

Now that i blew my cooldown

[spice zephyr]

That happens to you quite often. Probably because you suggest a lot

[lucid root]

Blacklisted

[spice zephyr]

Deserved for calling it a smoke pipe and not a toke pipe

I might have messed something up

Huh, toke is the action of using a pipe and not a type of pipe

[lucid root]

Long pipe/reading pipe is what id prefer for wizard

[spice zephyr]

I don't quite get how exactly it would work, but the idea is neat. I assume it would help regen spells somehow

[lucid root]

Even if its just cosmetic like part of the rest animation i wouldnt mind

[spice zephyr]

Maybe it would be like ale but instead of increasing the strength, it would increase will and instead of being drunk, it would give -movement speed or something

[abstract swallow]

I long to be a Rogue stabbing Wizards for their shireweed and jumping onto a roof to smoke it all

[lucid root]

[arctic lagoon]

have they done a road map for stuff?

[lucid root]

I dont think so. Their development is more short term goals from one playtest to another

[dusky field]

I have absolutely no idea what the frick pepeochin tried to say in his suggestion

[lucid root]

The closest thing to a roadmap is what they express interest in at dev qna

He wants the wizard nerf reverted

[dusky field]

How the hell did you manage to decipher his message lmao

[abstract swallow]

spend enough time online and you'll learn to speak ESL too

[arctic lagoon]

whats esl

also polling as in using non spammable ones to help keep it not bloated #d-and-d-suggestions message

[vast terrace]

opinions on "pull" specials. Think warpick hook & pull

[pallid vapor]

@shy scarab yup when I first was checking out all the changes, I saw how barebones bard was and ROGUE of all classes got jokester when it would fit perfectly in bard I was confused lol. Hopefully they move it to him

[shy scarab]

I agreee

[pallid vapor]

Rogue already has waaay too many perks that he’ll never use. So weird lol

[shy scarab]

yeah bard needs some love

[abstract swallow]

Rogue and Fighter both suffer from the Perk & Skill system just kinda not being a good fit for the game
there's way too much stuff that establishes class identity and helps alternative playstyles that just shouldn't be taking up the same space as the stuff that makes the class viable/function

[pallid vapor]

True. Some of the perks should just be passives built into the class. Then perks should be more unique things that add flavor but like u said not make the class viable

[abstract swallow]

hopefully the class trainer lets us take things as actual passives and stops limiting us to 1-2 skills
the skill system in particular screws spellcasters and classes with a 'mandatory' skill like Fighter/Barb

[proud tinsel]

hard to balance that

[abstract swallow]

I'll take hard to balance over boring and meta-oriented

[arctic lagoon]

Shield bash should slow attack speeds imo

[proud tinsel]

there will be a meta either way, real or imagined. Easier to balance is a plus but you're right in that it needs to be entertaining

[proud tinsel]

They need to add the mechanic that games like albion online have where like 80% of the gear is broken when you get pked to keep more stuff out of the economy.

[lucid root]

😂

[abstract swallow]

he's more right than he is wrong
durability is 100% needed if the game is going to have anywhere NEAR the current lootbloat

[lucid root]

Loot was tuned way up for the pt

[rigid prawn]

if they add durability, repairs should be possible but costly so you can keep 1 or 2 items indefinitely

[abstract swallow]

spawned loot literally doesn't matter for lootbloat
I can walk into any HR and rat in the zone and walk out with 12+ purple items by just dropping to Inferno or looting dead players

[lucid root]

Uhh

[atomic mountain]

I’m all about more challenge, but anything that increases the proportion of prep time to play time makes me apprehensive

[abstract swallow]

it doesn't matter how low the rates are if items stay in the economy indefinitely

[lucid root]

Welcome back dolan

[atomic mountain]

[abstract swallow]

[atomic mountain]

Do you guys think that durability would add depth to the experience of the game? More challenge is usually more rewarding right, but sometimes a feature like that could be argued to be the definition of bloat itself. Depends on how they implement it ofc, just curious what y’all think are the pros+cons.

[lucid root]

We saying gear will be unrepairable?

[abstract swallow]

the devs want gear to be repairable given there's already menu UI for it in the shops, so it'll probably be a 'pay to repair with a chance of the bar getting shorter' that most MMOs use

[lucid root]

Id be alright with that, if you can just fix it at a merchant whats the point

[atomic mountain]

Well I think that could become an issue if you don’t have the resources to do so but if that was an overly common problem it would take away more than it would add imo

[lucid root]

A combination of reduced loot and limited season lengths will be fine i think.

[abstract swallow]

I don't think that durability should be in the scope of a single 3-floor dungeon run, at least not when fully repaired/without significant max durability damage. It should be purely for economy/gear management, unless you're (intentionally) pushing your luck.

Durability comes with three key benefits:

1. It naturally filters items out of the economy through outright deletion.
2. It creates a goldsink that presumably scales with item rarity.
   2a. This naturally punishes 'punching down' into content below your gear level, and encourages self selection into appropriately lucrative (and dangerous) content.
3. It reduces the profitability of recycling items into the economy.

Ideally it'd just be as simple as swinging into the Merchant tab, clicking 'repair all equipped' and going on with your business.

[lucid root]

Now that you mention it, durability will pretty much only affect the whales, most players will be dying before anything breaks

Thats a good thing

[abstract swallow]

pretty much, if you're running a piece of gear until it breaks you can 100% afford a new one
and if you can't, you probably shouldn't have broken that epic/purple Felling Axe pubstomping F1 over and over while looting grey treasure items

[quick blade]

What about the gear you loot off of dead players

[abstract swallow]

If he died it probably wasn't doing him any good

Realistically though, gear should be damaged on death to enforce repairing it, cutting down on the absurd profit margin of looting kits and making it harder to loot full kits.

[quick blade]

Durability is not going to be a fun mechanic and will likely hinder the fun of dark and darker no matter how it is implemented. A big part of the appeal of Dark and Darker is it's simplicity.

[lucid root]

Maybe not have an extra durability penalty from dying, just from taking damage

[abstract swallow]

the game's tagline is not 'simple fun party adventure'
it is 'hardcore PvPvE dungeon crawler'
I wouldn't be surprised when they add things that make it more of a hardcore RPG and less of a battle royale, champ

[lucid root]

Give shields more durability to compensate

[abstract swallow]

yeah, and durability should probably scale with how large the item is
it'd naturally balance them being less slot-efficient for profit/less likely to be taken by keeping more of them in the economy and at better condition

[quick blade]

Fun pays the bills, being the same as ever other crap game leads to a quickly forgotten ip.

[abstract swallow]

I'm sure if you don't like the more niche hardcore elements there are lots of more casual and streamlined experiences that you'll enjoy

[lucid root]

Seeing as how they were going to add durability anyway 🤷‍♂️

[serene minnow]

Durability enjoyers are people with entirely unsatisfying lives who always need another thing to make their escapism feel more compelling 'because its just so much more realistic man' prove me wrong

[abstract swallow]

I will never get over how the devs redid like half the UI, including the inventory screens, and intentionally kept in the repair screen, the weight meter, and the bag slots and people are still coping so damn hard about those things never being added

[abstract swallow]

The EFT club is two blocks down, leatherman

[atomic mountain]

I think badger made some great points as to why it could be a benefit but I think placing more limitations on a players ability to experience DBD in better and better gear could result in a net negative if not done with care

[serene minnow]

and such people should stay there, though I do like a good leather gym

[abstract swallow]

yeah, it's something that's easy to do wrong
but it's not hard to do right

[serene minnow]

DND is fun because it's simple, hop in and chop and, if you're even slightly good then you very quickly get more gear than you know what to do with which makes durability moot

[atomic mountain]

I think the challenge argument has a great home here in DaD because the inherent risk and tension is what makes the triumph and the losses so much more emotionally impactful which results in a better gaming experience.
However it is a multiplayer game so you can run into a problem “wall” when you have to consider the ideal population and approachability of the game

[abstract swallow]

don't worry bud, I doubt you'd ever keep a piece of equipment long enough that durability would ever be something you need to worry about anyways

[abstract swallow]

I don't think that Durability would have much impact on new players or fresh characters, as almost all of their equipment is going to be factory-new or box-looted.
If anything it could slow down their ability to scavenge into early upgrades and slow down their midgame capital acquisition, but I feel like that slight setback would be easily outweighed by those new characters and players coming into a healthier, longer-lasting economy.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah that’s a great point. The simplicity of DaD and the environmental limitations that make survivability a challenging and minority experience is why it has appeal to begin with.
Balancing the challenge with the simplicity is up to IronMace and I hope they do a great job at it so the game retains it’s vision to be hardcore whilst also being a approachable and popular

[lucid root]

Imagine forgetting to repair a unique

[abstract swallow]

that seems like something a certain #1 Fighter would do

[serene minnow]

Not sure why you offered your estimation of my capability to begin with tbh but uh, you're pretty off 🤷‍♂️

[atomic mountain]

Well that’s situational right?
I think most of the time limitations adversely affect the bottom 90%. If you’re skilled enough and rich enough, a class nerf or an additional gold sink isn’t as impactful to you

[serene minnow]

I think their challenge is going to be filtering out the signal from the noise when it comes to things that actually make the game feel more hardcore vs the typical things gamer nerds get fixated on, like durability/hunger..even sickness systems

All of those things very quickly become solved, and so rather than being some sort of active challenge, they just add a layer of ritualistic tedium which provides 0 challenge

[abstract swallow]

It's certainly possible to achieve a level of wealth/success where Durability, like any other economic restriction, simply no longer concerns you.
But Durability (outside of very extreme examples like Uniques or players that completely forego profit) is not a mechanic that is targeted at individual player experience, but at having a more subtle influence on overall economic health.

[serene minnow]

someone figures out the optimal way to do it, and then thats it, all thought and challenge gone

[lucid root]

Dolan why are you chatting on two accounts

[abstract swallow]

slow mode makes a man do shameful things

[lucid root]

[atomic mountain]

What lol

[lucid root]

No idea how they're going to implement it, but since its coming anyway might as well discuss it. Cant wait for the weight system too

[serene minnow]

If you’re skilled enough and rich enough, a class nerf or an additional gold sink isn’t as impactful to you
Yeah, it doesn't impact the experienced players at all (eg: I literally never ran out of arrows as a ranger, it just became a mindless auto-refill task like heals). But if you're new, well now curve is even higher and the gap between you and an experienced player is wider

[atomic mountain]

I’m split on the durability idea myself.
On paper I can see why it would be a great addition, But I’m also over the moon with where the game is currently overall so I just think that any additional feature changes warrant a great deal of thought and care by the devs so they are adding things that make the gaming experience better

[lucid root]

Wait until you hear about their thoughts on adding flying mounts and flying between maps

[atomic mountain]

Gatekeeping is a communities responsibility, no to mounts. Unless it’s a stick horse for when my weapons are away

[serene minnow]

Inb4 they add tarkov style weapon malfunction to bows and make them snap sometimes

Durability as a way to manage the general game economy is a pretty interesting point, but that's all way too arcane for me to comment on

That said, all of this discussion is a bit pointless given that we don't know what the final loot drop rates will actually be

[abstract swallow]

I'm honestly hype for weight and bags
I will hobble into an exit portal with an entire team's bags after I wipe them for it
I will savor the seething of a team's survivors trying to loot my body, only to realize that I dropped my bag in the swarm somewhere
I will treasure finally being able to wear armor and use polearms without having the equivalent of -50 Agility
I will have entire bags of utility explosives on any and every character that starts with at least 15 resourcefulness

[serene minnow]

Though I really hope they don't make it so starved of good stuff that durability matters

[atomic mountain]

Sir, you have gone too far

[lucid root]

95% reduced move speed when overencumbered

[abstract swallow]

being at maxed red weight is only a minor setback when I can crawl to the top of collesium tower and rain endless fireballs and bottles

[lucid root]

Unlimited poise

[abstract swallow]

it does not matter if my Ranger is at the 10% movement speed floor if I can carry three bags of traps and util
I have decreed that you are unable to approach, and that half of the map's doors will be met with fun ankle minigames

[lucid root]

So is the - movement speed stat on gear getting deprecated with the addition of the weight system, hows that supposed to work

Make cloth and leather not effect you very much and plate just makes you slow as sht

[atomic mountain]

I think it’s high time they did another Q&A video with Onepeg.

[abstract swallow]

this is all speculation based on the existing -MS system and existing design decisions, but the best I can come up with is:

your weightcap is based on str or str+rsc (ala interaction speed)
bar 1 of weightcap is normal movement, bar 2 is proportional slowdown (% over bar 1), bar 3 is "dude you don't need to take that 4th grey plate set" wackiness with penalties beyond current heavy sets that you aren't intended to actively play with (since you'll be able to equip more bags and such, I assume reaching red weight means carrying MORE than we are able to currently for most classes)

given that the usual slowdown of an armor set ranges from -20 to -60 and weapons will usually run you a little under that, we can guess that equipped items will have a 'full' weight penalty, while equipment in your bags will be at significantly reduced weight (it's possible that weapons will maintain static -MS penalties, but that'd shaft polearms and dual wield guys)

with your equipment making up the most of your pre-loot weight budget, it'd give lighter classes more capacity while heavier classes rely on their strength to pad out their weightcap to mitigate their heavier equipment
with classes like Ranger and Fighter, both characters described as being good with supplies and utility, being the best of both worlds

given how easy strength is to come by, weight would probably only be an active obstacle for looting at very low gear levels, which Class Trainer might be able to solve (though it'd remain a consideration due to equipment weight until you're juiced with +ALL like every other mechanic )
I'd imagine a green ox pendant would be enough for a Wizard to pack a full back of slot-efficient treasure and a few pieces of pricey equipment at a roughly equivalent speed to what they can do now

and all of this is without speculating on any looting/weight based abilities that might crop up after its implementation (I'd be surprised if Wizard and Rogue didn't get these, possibly even as team-wide buffs while they're alive)

[placid canopy]

I can't imagine they make strength even stronger than it already is

[abstract swallow]

I'd be very surprised if weight wasn't moreso mitigated by resourcefulness than strength, otherwise I couldn't fathom why they'd have pumped Wizard's resourcefulness three times in a row

[rare agate]

Nerf double jump buff Cleric who's with me

[hasty sedge]

Buff cleric, are you mad?

[vivid warren]

for mages #d-and-d-suggestions message

[real trellis]

Dude are you serious? You don't need to go advertising your suggestions in a bunch of different channels every single time. Voting it down just because you're attention-starved

You even tried to use the "here" ping in general oh my lord who do you think you ARE bro

[prisma dock]

Gatekeeping is cringe

[atomic mountain]

[prisma dock]

Grieving people out of play g games or gatekeeping how they play is lame ngl on god

[real trellis]

Bro you just suggested "hot milfs" you don't get to talk about what is or isn't cringe

Also doesn't your "about me" say something about literally gatekeeping

[prisma dock]

I did not also my about me is a quote from the emperor of mankind on god reading comprehension

[real trellis]

40k fans when you don't recognize an esoteric quote from a long-dead character

[prisma dock]

How is that even slightly related to gate keeping reading comprehension

[real trellis]

How am I supposed to "comprehend" that it's a quote if I've never heard of the quote in question you knob

[prisma dock]

You argue a lot online and misunderstand things don’t you

[real trellis]

You're not making any kind of effort to explain anything.

[prisma dock]

Isn’t it mate I’m feeling chuffed bloody mate I lack reading comprehension and I read that line as something about gatekeepinng mate

[atomic mountain]

Oh I thought you were joking.
If we’re really gonna do this why don’t you just take a quick look at your profiles “about me” section and read to me what it says

[real trellis]

The quote is literally about gatekeeping what ideas you will consider wtf are you smoking

[prisma dock]

I read it it’s a quote about why an open mind is bad leme just say that to my 6th grade kid and see if she understands

[real trellis]

Someone who closes off their mind to all opposing ideas is just as much a fool as someone who accepts all opposing ideas without consideration

[atomic mountain]

To be fair to you I used to actually think the same way as you: gatekeeping is toxic. (Black and white type viewpoint).
I’ve since changed my outlook on it and find that responsible gatekeeping is different than toxic gatekeeping.

[prisma dock]

Yeah that is true

[prisma dock]

I agree but on god no cap I don’t think people should be gatekept for how they play etc if someone wants to do whatever in game and has fun who cares

[atomic mountain]

But contextually when I said gatekeeping is a communities responsibility it was said lightly in jest in reply to a ridiculous idea about flying mounts. It wasn’t meant to spur on some philosophical deep discussion for someone to reply to 4 hours later with some perceived burn

[prisma dock]

Ye no I was shitposting

[atomic mountain]

Oh ok ok we frens than lmao

[prisma dock]

I posted ngl and a bunch of zoomed shit at 4 am as a joke lol

[prisma dock]

👍

[prisma dock]

I miss one shorting people with a judgement and swing to the chest

[peak ermine]

The game needs hot milfs. You’re cringe for thinking it’s cringe.
@prisma dock I love you for 100 years. We demand wizard milfs

[prisma dock]

Wizard milfs r us

[peak ermine]

Give the barbarian male muscled tits too

Ladies need some spice too

[prisma dock]

This

[elder jolt]

@tardy zenith I kinda like the idea of crafting weapons weapons from Rubysilver and cobalt. It might open avenues of different playstyles if they implement it the same way they implemented armor crafting, do you think it's a poor suggestion?

[prisma dock]

If people don’t like milfs maybe cougars

[peak ermine]

We deserve to be able to make fat characters too. I want the chunkiest barbarian chasing kids down dark hallways screaming in voip

[peak ermine]

Bro I swear, your profile pic looks like an anime girl when I’m not zoomed in

[tardy zenith]

I think they need to introduce new materials, available in different areas, that have to be combined with others to craft. Rubysilver and cobalt might still be part of the recipes but there should be other ingredients from other maps

[prisma dock]

Short stack donny mommy sigma barbarian

[wary junco]

I'd say its a nice thought, has to be implemented in a balanced way so the crafted weapons are not god tier

[tardy zenith]

crafted armor is already ridiculously overpriced for what you get

[elder jolt]

Oh, I see... That's kinda unrelated to the suggestion though lol

[peak ermine]

Crafting weapons can result in poor rolls.

[wary junco]

True armor is realy crap, you should be able to atleast decide 2 stats on the gesr for crafting to be worth

[elder jolt]

Do you think Crafted armor is god-tier compared to it's counterparts? Are you worried that weapon crafting would end up in a similar state?

[prisma dock]

I want crafted to be better than bosses since it takes more time

[wary junco]

No current crafting is very bad. What i meant with that that these weapons will only be optainable via crafting so it should be handeled with carefull hands not that a red longsword suddenly is better then an legendary

[normal thorn]

I need big mommy milkers to ponder I dont want to ponder some basic glass orb I need big milf tiddies to ponder instead

[peak ermine]

I need to ponder these giant wobbling glommping jugular double orby worbies

[elder jolt]

I think they should add a final legendary crafting material. Perhaps called 'Obsidiangold'. mined only in inferno perhaps? And only in the boss room. This would be used to craft legendary gear, I think that would be cool.

We already have rubysilver, so making a gold variant the most rare would make thematic sense

and Black just looks cool to me hahah, hence Obsidian

[tardy zenith]

i think they should add another gathering mechanic, similar to mining. maybe gathering plants or mushrooms on the ruins map?

[prisma dock]

Who is it telepeture https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DczHdNwooY4&pp=ygUTdGVsZXB1cnRlIG9oIHRoZXNlIA%3D%3D

[wary junco]

Aight did a crafting sugggestion

[elder jolt]

Nice, I like that idea. I made a similar suggestion after playtest 4

[peak ermine]

Mystical tiddy witties

[elder jolt]

#d-and-d-suggestions message This was my suggestion

[prisma dock]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[wary junco]

To be fair it might be a little bit to strong to garantee 2 stats on red gear

[elder jolt]

I kinda agree

[tardy zenith]

a full red set costs 10k gold for the ore

[peak ermine]

The problem with all this gear and what not is that escaping can feel unfair when there’s no portals to extract. There’s also other players who will just murder anything that moves cause there’s no soft or hard punishment from being serial killer besides risking your own death — and is in fact encouraged

[spice zephyr]

I will say this again, I don't think cleric should get an item strictly related to a real religion, something like a censer seems much more fitting

[signal rain]

I feel attacked

[spice zephyr]

During pt 5, I would kill any nearby spawn if it was near my pathing, the less people there are, the less risk there is

[signal rain]

Tbh there were quite a few games I never looked at a chest or broke a vase it was all about kill in players

[elder jolt]

I agree with this actually

[signal rain]

I mean he prays to god right? Holy light. It’s already been decided also judgement that screams Christianity-to me

[signal rain]

What’s a censer?

[elder jolt]

I didn't even know what a censer was until you just mentioned it.

[spice zephyr]

While yes, the setting heavily implies that the cleric serves a god akin to The Chrisitan Father, the little lore snipets clearly mention demigods, hence making it non quite christian. A censer is a metal container to burn incense with and spread the fumes

[elder jolt]

it's kinda like a holy lantern/lamp? (but like, the lantern from aladdin) on a chain

[peak ermine]

Players are loot pinayatas and I think it goes against the spirit of the game if people just started to death match because they think they get better loot that way

[signal rain]

@elder jolt Ty @spice zephyr yea never played drungeobs and dragons but dnd has made me look into the lore seems like there’s a bunch of god like things. Would be cool if we could pick which one we wanted to worship

[elder jolt]

I didn't realise how conflicted I felt calling the genie's lamp a lamp until now. Were they really used for lighting?

[signal rain]

I agree and we were really only doing it cause it was like the last 2 days of pt

[elder jolt]

That would be cool, I made a suggestion that could go with this hahah #d-and-d-suggestions message

[spice zephyr]

Isn't a lamp also considered an synonym for a storage of liquids, hence for example a lamp of wine?

[peak ermine]

Yeah. They need to make mobs more fun to fight and make the variance in gear not have too much of an effect in PvP

[elder jolt]

I am not a linguist, but that makes sense to me

[spice zephyr]

Yeah I hope they go into that direction, although I think serving a god is more so a thing that a paladin would do

[signal rain]

Controversial topic but I feel like all class balancing should only take team play into consideration. Solo play should always be a after thought and team play mechanics should take priority over solo play. What do you think

[elder jolt]

DCSS does this, you can typically choose a deity to worship which places both restrictions on weapons or spells and certain 'gifts'

[elder jolt]

I agree with this, team play should be the gold standard. Ideally you can try and give every class solo-viability, but not at the cost of team-play imbalance

[signal rain]

I see ppl making balance suggestions and I’m like bro this is not a solo game. Stop trying to cater to that play style and I just really hope the devs don’t fall for it

[peak ermine]

The game has a serious issue trying to balance for PvP and that’s where all the problems come from

[spice zephyr]

Majority of competetive games balance mostly in regards to the best players and optimal play, as much as I want a fullfilling experience for solo, the balancing should be done with the 3 man party system as the main focus

[spark crest]

f me suggested an idea with wrong format then removed it my own, now have to wait 6 hours before next suggestion

[spice zephyr]

L

[signal rain]

Lol yea took me a day to figure that out

[elder jolt]

wait until you're min-maxxing on that sweet three-suggestions-a-day lifestyle. Wake-up, afternoon, before bed.

[spice zephyr]

I suggested 3 things so far, and 2 were pretty well accepted, quality over quantity

[spark crest]

game kinda balanced imo. each class has its own strongest part to fight in any situlation. only issue are double jump

[elder jolt]

I agree, apart from Bard (which is obviously unfinished). Pretty much every class has a niche it owns.

[peak ermine]

Part of the reason there’s gear fear is that it’s like we’re all made of wet tissue paper and the fighting mechanics are so bare bones that it’s just awful to pvp

[spark crest]

wdym made of wet tissue paper? do you even play latest competitive games such as cod or apex?
those game kill alot faster than dad lol
The reason i play dad most likely latest shooter don't give me the feels of old day gaming.

[peak ermine]

We die in 1-4 hits and considering the only reliable way of avoiding damage is playing the game like kings field it’s just eugh. I love the pace but it needs reliable mechanics because footwork doesn’t really work when we only have 90 degrees of screen and zero depth perception for enemy attacks or our own attacks

[peak ermine]

It sounds like you need to explore the medium a bit if you’re using shooters as a measuring stick to compare

[spark crest]

what i meant was the pace of the game already tanky enough compare to other competitive games or extraction games.
i have no interest to deal with a person who cannot be killed then restore up in 15s and bring up round 2.

besides avoid a unwinnable fight also the way to play.

[grim fiber]

Slow TTK will just increase third party and frustration and people will start to avoid PVP more and more

[signal rain]

I think TTK is fine. Getting third party is part of the game. That’s a risk you gottta calculate before you engage. Like guys if we get hit here this is what we are doing then this is what we will do. For my group it was simple like if we get hit we are going out that door second person out the door closes for the last person and first person out the door goes to the next door to make sure it’s open. That way we always had a quick route to leave and give us time to kite. I believe a lot of peoples gripes just come down to being bad at the game. Which is not unrealistic cause most people have played for 2 weeks

This game punishes the usual I’ll fight whoever I find play style. Some fights you should avoid. Some can be handled in in out if the box ways. Like a mage camping center room just so they could haste and ignite the wraiths or skeleton champ as someone was fighting it. He said he got a skeleton champ to wipe a 3 man. He killed 3 ppl and never attacked them

[jagged swan]

Relase the game

[restive drum]

#d-and-d-suggestions message dudes valid legit have never botherd doing crafting it seems fun and fleshed out but just isnt worth it

[wary junco]

Damn iam suprised how many downvotes i got in my suggestion. Do ppl not want crafting to be better?

[wary junco]

Yeah thats me hi ^^ I do feel it should be way stronger considering you have to survive over 4 raids to get proper Red gear

And that would asume if you stuff your entire inventory with red ore which is impossible in most maplayouts due to the circle.... so you can asume that you get 2-3 bars of red ingots every run

Which atleast will be 1 hour investment for 2-3 bars

1 hour that HAS TO BE sucessfull considering you cant make it out everytime 1 hour isnt realy accurate more like 1 1/2 hours

So A you get super lucky on a random drop in highroller and get the gear instandly or... you work hard for good gear for hours... i think the working hard part to realy achieve good gear is the better way

[arctic lagoon]

Crafting needs an overhaul for sure, its a pain to get it done because you need to hyper focus it as well as be lucky enough to get to a portal. Plus you have to pay for a pickaxe each time you die. It ends up being a grind not worth it if you end up loosing all of it, only goblin mine has the easiest to reach ores but that still sucks because mining speed is so slow!

[restive drum]

People downvote for no reason i swear lol

[meager jasper]

Nah I think that it's reasonable to downvote the specific mechanical suggestion there. However it does need overhauled in general. Crafting isn't good. But to be honest I don't want crafting to supercede trade. Having played Marauders recently, it's less satisfying to have the main systems be based on crafting and grinding out a half dozen goblin knives and taking away from bringing out real loot. The way it is now does have some value and sets a high precedent for the value of gear, but I would much rather high tier gear was found in dangerous places, and was rare, and also that much of it would naturally be sold because you're not likely to pick one up for your own class. If the value of ore was increased it could have a knock-on effect on inflation and make good gear much more common, making the game much harder for early players. So that expression being described isn't actually good unless it's really intensive and sweaty to get that much ore for reds.

The more you encourage crafting, the more gameplay becomes a degenerate mining-fest too.

[spice zephyr]

As long as I main cleric, I refuse to mine

with my base 8 resourcefullness, I would rather just go naked

[woeful elm]

i tried mining as a cleric, too slow, too loud.

id rather make another character, make it a ranger and mine that way. then i can just give the ore to a friend who can craft what I need. very tedious but the end game is it gets back to my cleric.

[spice zephyr]

at that Point I just rather go do my routing for loot and buy the ore from misc

[grand mirage]

im pretty sure pick axing is effected by resource. so cleric/barb are the worst for it

[spice zephyr]

yes, yes it is

[reef spindle]

Increase zweihander Impact power from 4 to 5

Right now zweihander has as much impact power as longsword, querterstaff, mace, battle axe, felling axe and spear.

I feel like zweihander should belong to impact power 5 like weapons:
Morning star, bardiche, halberd and double axe

[ivory cosmos]

any australians up?

[dusky field]

That question is more fit for the general chat rather than here

[ivory cosmos]

aw dont be a stranger

[dusky field]

Love the suggestion for the flail because god damn it I want flails, but the magic dmg scepter that can also cast spells is way too powerful, unless it's damage is ridiculously low, like that of the staff

[spice zephyr]

wizard literally has that in the form of a magic sword, it's not a strong weapon and almost never used for casting due to it's big hitbox

[dusky field]

Yyyyyyes, but the wizard cannot wear heavy armour almost on par with that of the fighter. Giving that to the cleric would turn him into a tank that can heal, buff, and deal heavy sustained magic damage on melee. Like bruh, at that point give him a longbow that deals magic damage and make him the only playable class

[strong cedar]

flails would be cool but would prob be a solo only weapon, shit would be worse than a war maul hitting your teammates all the time

[dusky field]

Agree, and even more, it SHOULD be like that. The flail should have some extreme risks of friendly fire, but that would be part of the fun for me lmao

[spice zephyr]

the damage of the magic sword is like between 20-30 in most cases, it's not a strong tool for offense

[strong cedar]

true, it would be cool if it had the capability to wrap around shield if you are close enough to an enemy

[dusky field]

But we're not arguing about the magic sword, we're arguing about a "magic sword" alternative for an entirely different class. Yes, it would work like a magic sword, but it's a different class that's using it, with different available equipment and different available spells that would make him absolutely busted in potential.

[strong cedar]

when they add paladin it would be cool, but for know I like that magical weapons are only reserved for artifacts

[dusky field]

My problem with them adding a paladin, as much as I love paladins, is that it'll work as a fighter with holy spells. So... a fighter but better.

[strong cedar]

not if they do it the right way, the could have it be a subclass

[spice zephyr]

I would argue that it would in fact not create that much differnce, it would be just a different magical staff, The damage will not be amazing and the biggest potential would be healing mid fight and or casting protection. Choosing to use a weapon which is both worse than a mace in damage and has to be double handed in a melee combat situation does not seem remotely close to how strong you're portraying it to be

[dusky field]

Sigh, alright, sure

[dusky field]

I haven't given subclasses that much thought, but if "paladin" ends up being just a subclass of fighter, I'm gonna click that thing so hard I'll need a new mouse, and I'm gonna do it before they even release the damn thing lmao

[strong cedar]

its most likely going to happen. I know they have thought about necromancer which isnt a class, its a subclass of wizard

[wary junco]

You see, you take the point of high gear Inflation as bad. I think if ppl have better gear in generel the game would be more fun/fair considering everyone can get it. Its not like you are beeing prevented from doing besides maybe competition to contest the mining spots which btw would encourage pvp. Also ores in genrel will be more valuable like that is a pro for me too it will be something like candy which has high value... which also would allow players to get much more gold if they intend to do it to sell it. Its quite funny that the points that you see as negative i see as positive

[strong cedar]

but high gear inflation is bad in every game ever???

[wary junco]

High gear Inflation is good, since everyone will be more likely to get an even fight

[strong cedar]

thats not what high gear inflation means though? it has nothing to do with likelihood of getting into a fight

[wary junco]

So what doew it mean out of your perspective i might not understand it properly then

[abstract swallow]

"Gear Inflation" is a net bad that does not result in more accessibility to items like you would think it would-- the game has an ABSURDLY bloated economy right now where high value items stay almost indefinitely and literally 2 days into a playtest with no event shopkeep, nerfed drop rates, and no public trading until the map rollback STILL had enough lootbloat to push the gear floor well out of reach for fresh characters/casual players.

[strong cedar]

not in my perspective, but high gear inflation objectively means that the reward of obtaining high quality gear will go down, the urge to fight for better gear will go down because everyone already has loads of it. The effects would be completely opposite of what you have said

[wary junco]

The more lootbloat happens the cheaper things get so easier to get for non geared ppl or am i wrong

[strong cedar]

sometimes sure, but most of the time it will be extremely difficult because the multiple full team in purps/orange in the lobby will obliterate you before you make any progress, only way to obtain good gear at that point is to buy it

[wary junco]

I think it will make ppl leas afraid of losing their good gear and fight more

[strong cedar]

gear fear is one of the best parts of the extraction genre. Its why people play these games in the first place. You feel rewarded when you find something good and then you dont want to lose it because of the rarity. Its the baseline of these types of games, getting rid of that would be bad and make the game no different than something like mordhau

[strong cedar]

take Tarkov for example, would any be playing that game if full kit M4s and the best ammo and armor were scattered across the map, probably not

[strong cedar]

is gear fear a bad thing?

[autumn flare]

I think it's good part of the game that sometimes you just want to escape the dungeon and avoid fights. There are some ppl that joins to the game to loot players corpses and others that want to get as much treasures as they can and escape with them. Usually it's 50/50 and you can't always avoid fights even if you want. For me it's fine that the game is not only about the mindless PVP 24/7 and you have to hide sometimes and use the surrounding. The game has some strategy and economy inside.

And if you loose your gear you can easily get new one by just playing safer and collecting everything you see.

[late roost]

@warm river u don't like pole hammer? ):

[wary junco]

You see, iam a dayZ Player. I learned to be never attached to my gear otherwise it will influnced my mindset in RL. I simply learned that beeing attached to gear is a mistake period

[meager jasper]

I would strongly suggest you go and play Marauders for an example of why everyone having good gear is bad.

[river dew]

🤓

[wary junco]

So beeing attached to your gear is kinda a big oooof for me. If i would play someone that is highly attached to his gear i would avoid playing with that Individual because i cannot trust that person in Hot situations

[meager jasper]

We don't want to level the playing field, we want gear to be more important than in-combat skill, or those with high skill will literally push out anyone who isn't the sweatiest of sweatlords.

And that's ignoring that having gear be important is a core part of what makes the game interesting and rewarding.

[dusky field]

Gear fear is an important part of this game. It's why it's fundamentally wrong to have "insurances" and what not. And yes, this game has a huge problem of gear bloating and hyperinflation. There needs to be waaaaaay more gold drain on the game

[abstract swallow]

Equipment should be important-- perhaps not as important as it is now, but fixing the scaling of gear is a very different problem with its own solutions.

[lucid root]

Just want to add that gear does go out of circulation, the amount of bodies that dont even get looked at because of the zone closing

[wary junco]

You see, i simply dont understand gear fear. Gear is a reccource that is suppose to be spend and not kept forever

Saving gear facing an impossoble situation is something else in this case though

[dusky field]

Yes, but at the same time, high-end gear should be an "achievement" for most players (ignoring those who are extremely skilled and can consistently win on high-roller, and streamers who get everything for free). Better gear means you can earn more but it also means that if you lose it, you lose a ton of work you did trying to save gold and trading gear to get your ideal set.

[wary junco]

But thats the same with ore / crafting you are even risking more considering that you have to extract a lot of times to even get am item out of it

[dusky field]

Yyyyyyyep. That's part of the idea. You work hard to get your good gear and you don't wanna lose it. It adds to the thrill of the game. It's part of the genre.

[abstract swallow]

This is true to an extent, but the effect drops off significantly once players have gear they can comfortably clear PvE in, and gets further mitigated by the skill level of the community improving over time.

[spice zephyr]

@abstract swallow is your suggestion not a thing already(albeit just partially)?

[abstract swallow]

Weapon category and handedness is already in there, they just need to expand it and make it a consistent wording they can reference

[spice zephyr]

I see

[abstract swallow]

What does and doesn't count as a weapon, or "bow type", etc is all stuff you have to look up outside of the game right now, which sucks.

[reef spindle]

New talent for Barbarians:
Reduces the base movement speed penalty from equipped weapons by -30%. Not applicable to additional modifiers.

Weapon's version of fighter's Swift talent.
Such talent would make Barbarians better with heavier weapons than clerics and Fighters. This would be an answer to problematic duelist rogues poking from safe fistances with rapier as Barbarians are so slowed.

[autumn flare]

That's actually good idea. Barbarian was pretty useless in last playtest cuz everything he could do, cleric and fighter did better and provide even more. This would make him a little bit more dangerous and actually barbaric.

My idea is to add barb perk called Rage:
Improves movement speed while getting hit by something, +1% for every received damage, stacks up to 10% and effect lasts for 5 sec after last dmg received.

[abstract swallow]

That's a great Barb perk, honestly you could share it between Fighter and Barbarian since they're both polearm/2h users with no real way to specialize in them.

[signal rain]

I don’t want a game where skill is not the deciding factor. Yes gear should play a big factor but if this ever becomes like league of legends where someone has 20 kills and you can’t touch them anymore cause they got so many good items I’m done playing this game. I don’t think anyone wants to play a game where personal skill can’t overcome someone’s gear

And your fear that sweat lords will push everyone else out I think is a little unfounded cause there will always be more casuals then sweats. So you will just naturally have games where there’s no sweats or one .

[meager jasper]

Then you don't want this game as it is and I suggest you get a different one lol.

[signal rain]

The game already is based around skill that’s why I like it. You can beat ppl in legendary items with just a decent wep and good team play

[meager jasper]

"with just a decent wep"

[gaunt cargo]

Don't bother talking to that guy. He's in here every day trying to make this game a /played check.

[meager jasper]

You don't seem to understand how gear heavy the game is. Try playing a fighter or wizard next time naked and see how much your skill matters, even against greens.

[signal rain]

Yea if you have starter gear and fight a dude in full legendary I agree you should lose. I mean I argued a few days ago if gear means nothing then why get it.

But I don’t think that someone with a green wep should be incapable of killing Someone in legendary if they play the fight well

To me decent wep is like green to me

[meager jasper]

Again, that's not where the game is now. You need to be extremely bad to lose with legendary gear. And the game is better for it.

[signal rain]

Idk about that. And tbh how you spoke earlier about me you seem rather ignorant. And on top of the comment I’m replying I’d say it confirms you are. This game has so many variables for it to just be your good or bad.

[abstract swallow]

The big issue with gear isn't that high-end gear is so much better, it is that low rarity gear isn't functional and that high rarity weapons get increasingly efficient damage gains.

[signal rain]

And if you didn’t kill some legendary geared ppl maybe that’s just a representation of your game experience and not a general rule

[signal rain]

I agree as the rarity increase getting a entire new role per lvl as well as damage increases is going to make them absurdly powerful. But according to the devs that’s the point. The game is geared towards ppl who can aquire those legendary items to have “fun” with them

[abstract swallow]

You can have better armor than someone, but if their weapon is good or they're optimized for damage you can't out-itemize/out-scale them outside of a very small set of class builds with very high investment. The best you can do is also be efficient with damage scaling, which turns the game into the super lame 'rocket tag' oneshot meta that started in PT3 and still holds strong.

[signal rain]

But if someone has a unique and you at least have a blue I’d say you have more then a chance you are a credible threat to anyone. We only have like 100-150hp not counting barbs

[gaunt cargo]

This is my biggest qualm with current scaling and gear balance. The very high end is just every class 2 shotting eachother.

[meager jasper]

You call me ignorant yet it's clear you are pretending the game isn't the way it is? Get the hell outta here with that.

[signal rain]

I called you ignorant for making a claim about me that’s just your opinion and trying to push your opinion on others. And for your daft take on the game. Saying legendary means you can’t die to ppl which is basically what you said.

[meager jasper]

You're intentionally misrepresenting what I said. Gear is the deciding factor in combat at the moment. I said that specifically versus greens.

Are you claiming you have a sliver of a chance against legendaries with greens? Because you really don't.

[signal rain]

I’d say skill is the deciding factor. If the guy in legendary over commits and gets caught out he will die. I say this from the perspective of a guy who got caught out in legendary. It happens and you can los e

[meager jasper]

It takes signficantly poor play to get there. I remember in one instance with all blues I walked into a trap as a fighter, took multiple shots, failed to get out of the trap, and still walked over to a half-green half-white ranger and just killed him.

[gaunt cargo]

Dude probably played a fighter where his only fighting options were W key and mouse click.
yep confirmed lol

[signal rain]

Lol

[meager jasper]

I also play wizard, which is equally gear heavy. Are you going to claim that a purple wizard is anywhere near a naked one?

[signal rain]

As a ranger skill is huge. Like knowing when to run. Setting up a path as you move through the dungeon so you can kite ppl back. Knowing which rooms I can jump up or down to areas quickly.

[signal rain]

Go look up YouTube of dark and darker and watch the videos of people going in lvl 1 or with zero kit and coming out loaded. It’s possible to beat kitted ppl with base kit just cause your better then them. Or your class counters there class. There’s so much more then just my gear better you lose

[meager jasper]

Lol okay. Nobody said skill was not a factor in the game. It's just a vastly diminished factor in comparison to gear than you're making it out. I play longsword fighter. I parry.

[signal rain]

What I’m trying to say zen is SKILL is the deciding factor in all fights. Gear just boost ppls ability to capitalize on their skill.

[meager jasper]

God the people here have such trash opinions about game design. Seriously, go and play Marauders and learn what a heavily skill based game feels like with flattened gear before you whine that skill is such a huge part of DaD.

[signal rain]

I think what you may find tho is yes the people with the most skill often have very good gear to go with it.

[abstract swallow]

it has to be a pretty severe skill difference or situational disadvantage to lose to someone one or more full gear tiers under you, unless they're a class that is modifier dependent and not rarity dependent
even then having a weapon one or two rarities above an otherwise equally geared opponents doesn't just shave off multiple hits to kill, it opens the door to oneshots for half the classes of the game because they have 0 defensive scaling

[meager jasper]

It sounds like you're just trying to convince yourself that you're skilled.

[signal rain]

Shit I’m average I win some I lose some. I try to not die the same way twice your not gonna find me on a leaderboard

[meager jasper]

And also, I'm not talking about positioning and strategy here. I'm talking about literal reflex and combat skill.

[signal rain]

Now we are playing a different game cause positioning and Strat come into play in a 3v3 fight

[meager jasper]

That is the deciding factor when the playing field gear-wise is equal, but it isn't the deciding factor otherwise. It's all positioning, mostly.

[signal rain]

If you limit all factors that allow skill to be used as a factor and force 1 guy to stand infront of the other then yea gear matters

[abstract swallow]

positioning/footwork is by far the most important skill in the game imo, if damage was not so absolutely broken then the game would be even more focused on movespeed than it is now

[meager jasper]

I fully agree. But I was never saying it wasn't, just to be clear. The game is half positioning and half gear in my eyes. But when I talk about skill with combat I'm talking about things like rapidly cycling spells and aiming headshots, and parrying.

But positioning and combat skill are both distantly second to if there's one or more tiers separating you from your opponent.

[grand mirage]

i hope some ttk would be slightly nerfed (mainly the issue what is it 2x headshot?)

[abstract swallow]

fair enough, thanks for clarifying

[abstract swallow]

I'm gonna save you from repeating this entire conversation, just read Kurt's wall of text
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/114s3aj/the_oneshot_meta_how_we_got_here_and_how_ironmace/

[signal rain]

I take back calling you ignorant zen that was a personal attack and was not needed. And I agree at the top end of gear things get wacky. That’s why when I’d go hr I moved very carefully cause pt3 and 4 I’d had kits as ranger where I could 1 tap all classes but barb to the head and most classes 2 tap them in chest. And that’s just me a avg player I’m sure the streamers can get some wild dmg kits together.

[meager jasper]

Thing is, I actually like gear the way it is in this game. Inflation needs to be addressed but I find this system significantly better than something like Marauders where it's flat and you can get the best gear extremely easily and then it just becomes a game of whether your combat skill is better rather than anything to do with your build. I don't want the game to be too much about combat skill and while the current design can cause frustrating circumstances, I consider them just part of the game's loop.

At that point it becomes Mordhau in a dungeon, essentially.

[gaunt cargo]

Just came back. Glad everyone could shift their goalposts to pretend they agree. DaD unity.

[meager jasper]

You're a rogue, your opinions do not matter, knave.

[signal rain]

I hope that gear is harder to get by like 2x in ea. I was able to get some dumb damage kits together in just a week. Feel like within a month at the current rate everyone would be in purps and blues

[meager jasper]

I'm not sure. I'd worry they'd ruin the feel of looting by reducing the drop rates, but we'll have to see.

Early on in this PT, when the ruins didn't drop good loot and was all white, it was a terrible map specifically because of that imo, despite having some of the roughest enemies and terrain to deal with.

[abstract swallow]

ruins had a pretty comfortable rarity when it was F1 imo, I pretty consistently pulled greens from monsters and there were lots of good static spawns for loose gear

[gaunt cargo]

They've already confirmed the PT drop rates have been boosted.

[meager jasper]

Maybe I just had bad runs, but I felt like they did something between it being F1 and standalone.

[abstract swallow]

iirc pre-map rollback PT5 was the first time they started to step back the loot boosts

[abstract swallow]

standalone Ruins had better loot than post-rollback B1, so that might be affecting your memory of it
I was able to run my ranger/fighter to clear the 3 archers and 2 crossbowmen in the non-gatehouse side to grab ammo and weapon upgrades on a default kit pretty consistently

[dusky field]

And ruins' drop was boosted further to encourage players to test it

[abstract swallow]

honestly I played very little Ruins once it stopped being F1
being able to navigate to stairs was nice, both for avoiding player contact and looking to pick fights (before Rogues found out about Double Jump)

[gaunt cargo]

Logically, with what they've said so far, along with the fact that a good player in the PTs will be in epics by the end of day 1, you can assume that the drop rate will be much lower to fit with the progression of wipe cycles.

[abstract swallow]

forcing players to be level 15 to enter high roller was honestly the single best thing they've done for the game's economy yet

[gaunt cargo]

Sort of. It ended up creating a bit of a "rich get richer" scenario since most HR lobbies on day 1 were less than half full.

[abstract swallow]

it still allowed whales to get ahead, but it really cut down on the number of high-rarity bases that flooded the market (which is saying something since people had 2 full days to hoard them for sale)

[gaunt cargo]

could also be a product of the playerbase being further split than previous PT with the addition of a new map. Hard to say. I do agree that a lvl 2 that got their first 100g extract shouldn't immediately be able to rat HR

[meager jasper]

I'm not convinced HR should exist versus more Floors. But Floors have their own problems with numbers of people.

[abstract swallow]

that's true, it also helps that the lower pop had a much more chill market (outside of Fighter chat, which was just depressing)

[gaunt cargo]

When they add lobby merging, I wouldn't care if they dumped HR

[abstract swallow]

I like High Roller as a concept (self selection & segregation are good), but I'd be just as happy if there were a second, more dangerous branch of dungeon that you could just pay to queue straight into or enter normally as an alternative to descending to crypts.

[signal rain]

Agreed feel like lobby merging opens the game up to so many possibilities

[abstract swallow]

Lobby merging, a real 32 man F1, and bosses on every floor will be HUGE boons for the general multi-map flow and playability

okay I know that Rune just does gag/intentionally bad suggestions
but having birds patrol the upstairs of the map and screw with people up there is an actually good idea, as is just having birds (or other wildlife/non-harmful 'traps') in some locations to make a bunch of noise to give away the position of people camping/traversing there

they already kinda do that with bones and stuff breaking underfoot, which has saved my life before

[reef spindle]

Do you agree zweihander should have 5 impact power? One more than longsword
For me it makes sense as morning star has 5 but mace has 4

[abstract swallow]

zwei being impact 5 is pretty reasonable, though impact 5 is mostly reserved for blunt weapons iirc
if we had some sort of weapon clash system it would make a lot more sense though, since zweis are basically designed to slap other weapons out of the way

[reef spindle]

It would allow to stagger buckler and round shield

But not heater shield

Bardiche, morning star, halberd and double axe have 5 impact power

So polearms and heavy version of weapons

Double axe is heavy version of axes
Morning star is heavier version of mace
So zwei should also as heavier version of swords

[abstract swallow]

makes sense to me, I guess it's not something I've really thought about due to a lack of support for zwei making it unpopular to run
and the few people that do run it are Chiv2 turbo-nerds that do the block-piercing accel into a clank reset

[gentle otter]

weapons rarity should actually help for getting bonuses. if a weapon is purple and ONLY for fighter why the fuck would it have spell capacity bonuses

[worn pewter]

i'm wondering, why does my suggestion have so many dislikes ? #d-and-d-suggestions message
Is it really that bad of an idea ? Do people not like the idea of knowing somewhat how much hp does the enemy have ? Or maybe they didn't like the gruting idea ?

[elfin aspen]

Out of curiosity, to whomever downvoted my proposal for increased weapons with riposte, why?

[abstract swallow]

@worn pewter
try to be more concise and cut down on typos, your formatting and idea are fine but you're a little meandering

@elfin aspen
people are very hesitant to say approve of anything that would expand mechanics that make the game more similar to other popular first person fighting games like chivalry and mordhau, not that you expressed any such intent, but it's still a raw nerve for most folks

don't be too discouraged by getting dogpiled with thumbs down though, the suggestion chat is like the same 90~ english speaking dorks with tons of bias

[dusky field]

The suggestion is good imo, it doesn't have all that many dislikes. I'd say the dislikes come from people abusing the barb or fighter high health pools

[worn pewter]

fair, thanks

[elfin aspen]

From an English speaking dork, I thank you for the assistance in improving my writing

[dusky field]

People don't want mordhau with loot and magic, and complexity isn't a priority right now

[elfin aspen]

Yeah, but I feel like the fighter is just a worse barbarian right now, that is forced to (late game at least) change to barb

[abstract swallow]

don't get too hung up on current balance
a lot of Barb's strength comes from how well he vibes with this barebones version of the game and is easily able to exploit its balance issues, it comes with being a simple (if badly designed) class
Fighter is meant to vibe with a lot of stuff that just ain't in the game yet like resourcefulness, utility effectiveness, weight, class training, etc

[elfin aspen]

Sad 😭

[arctic lagoon]

honestly yeah this, would help a lot #d-and-d-suggestions message

[vocal lodge]

SO QUIET WHAT HAPPEN NO NEWS NOTHING NADA

[arctic lagoon]

probably ndas or some legal bull

[gaunt cargo]

The last filing in the court case included screenshots of things the devs said in discord, so im sure their lawyer advised them to say as little as possible so Nexon doesn't snap a pic.

[vivid rover]

nexons lawyers busy taking screenshots of graysuns spotify playlists and emote reactions

[gaunt cargo]

There are spies among us.

Graysun should start using eggplant emojis so nexon has to explain it to the judge and how it's relevant.

[dusky field]

Agree. Win the case by sheer power of Chadliness

[lucid root]

whats the word on why they switched the warmup map from tavern to the encampment?

[gaunt cargo]

One of the similarities nexon claimed was that the games begin in a tavern. Despite it being incredibly common and generic, they likely changed it to be safe.

[lucid root]

oh that makes sense

petition to change it to a brothel

[signal rain]

Maybe this is just the dayz player in me. But I hate games that have hit sounds. If you wanna know if you hit the guy go Look. But I’m sure I’m in the minority here. But to me those sound cues just eliminate mystery and the tenseness of fighting. Especially games where you have a headshot sound. It’s much more intense to take a pot shot and have no idea if it hit or not. Finally building up the confidence of alright we gotta push this. As you get closer the tension rises and rises and then you peak the doorway and see the body. Such a feeling of relief and you sometimes laugh thinking all that anxiety over a guy who was dead’. Those moments do not happen when you have hit sounds and kill boards. But like I stated I think I’m in the minority

Or with the fog they got you throw a arrow into them and run look back to see somthing huddle in a corner so you throw more arrows into its just to realize it’s not a crouched player but a dead one

[shrewd lagoon]

Also a dayz player. And at those ranges there should be no hit marker, but in a close quarters game like this I kinda think there should be something that indicated an arm, head, or body shot. Even something small like the amount of blood after the hit would be sufficient

[tulip venture]

you know who is also a day z gamer ..... Graysun is

[signal rain]

I’m all for visual effects But sound effects to me can eliminate some of the magic of the unknown

[abstract swallow]

I don't think people are asking for hitmarkers, just different sfx on hit
it's a fairly common suggestion for hit locations/resisted hits

[shrewd lagoon]

No rust headshots please 🙏🏻

[lucid root]

early dayz on arma were the golden days

[signal rain]

I know what they are suggesting I just feel like that element of the unknown leads to a lot more tense fights. Like when you were little and the dark scared you cause it had so many possibilities and now ur old and you know in the dark room is just a chair table etc. the less you know the more ur brain plays on ya

[signal rain]

Yea they were. Been chasing that high for a long time and dnd scratch’s it.

[abstract swallow]

I know what you're getting at, but combat feedback is really bad for a game that's all about commitment to actions and footwork

hearing 4 different hits connect and not being able to figure out why the shirtless rogue isn't dead doesn't invoke wonder or mystery, just frustration

[signal rain]

I’m up for sounds effects on hit like the sound a arrow would make hitting plate helmet or somthing I guess what I’m really trying to say I don’t want is like hunt showdown the noise it makes when you land a headshot or the hit sound for cod

[gaunt cargo]

Csgo dink.

[signal rain]

I noticed in suggestions there talking about different levels of impact power. What is that?

[abstract swallow]

all weapons have a value called Impact that deals with how much damage it does to objects and how it interacts with blocks
more impact means breaking better or causing more blockstun

[teal axle]

crack.sfx

[reef spindle]

It is causing stagger if enemy is blocking with weaker shield
Idk there is more stagger

[lilac silo]

@rocky warren just so you know, jokester already benefited the rogue who equipped it
solo rogue could get 10 more stat points than anyone else just by equipping a perk and it's probably not the healthiest of perks

[lucid root]

whats the consensus on it, remove it entirely?

[cyan nymph]

how do i add suggestions nowadays? i dont see the tab for it besides the suggestion discussion and the DaD suggestions.

[lucid root]

https://discord.com/channels/988365908009447485/1048762118255673428

[cyan nymph]

or am i just smooth brain right now?

[cyan nymph]

thank you borg

[lucid root]

I hope they add torches back when the case is over, i miss torches, i know they're still in the game, you know what i mean

[brittle jasper]

this guy hates the idea of a lantern

[lucid root]

throws my only light source on the ground making a loud metallic clang

[signal rain]

They were fun to throw at ppl or into a dark room just to watch it get picked up

[abstract swallow]

Jokester does just need to go unfortunately
even in a Class Trainer system it's just hilariously efficient as a passive, and they can do better with improving Rogue's teamplay problem

[gaunt cargo]

It's a great passive, in theory, but in practice you hardly notice it and it's often beneficial to drop it for something else. For that reason, I'm not sure why they would remove it.

[reef spindle]

Torches were still in game

[brittle jasper]

hey horrid idea: remove jumping from all classes and have rouges double jump only give him jumping back

[lucid root]

i think i'm actually banned from suggesting lol

Oh well, give lanterns the same on/off function that the old lanterns have, then have it visible on your player model the same way potions are, so you can take it out, light it, then put it on your belt for a light source while you're walking around with a weapon drawn

Also not sure why they didn't re-use the old lantern

that was my third time in a row that my suggestion didn't post so i'm just going to assume i'm blacklisted or something

still would prefer being able to throw a couple torches around a room for better lighting, but a wearable light source seems like an okay substitute

give me back my utility slot torches before i nerd the frick out

what a strange hill to die on

[lilac silo]

no clue, my personal opinion is that it should ONLY apply to teammates
or it should just be given to bard, bard with 10 more skill points is still not well-off but it'd help

[glacial sphinx]

I feel the perk is extremely out of whack with the value other perks provide (generally ~10% power), and should be changed regardless of which class gets it. Bard can be improved in other ways

[rocky warren]

it should be only for them though so the others don't get it, the rogues could use a little love in the way of solo survivability. ideally it wouldn't be a must pick as rogues have a lot of good perks atm

[glacial sphinx]

Making it only affect the rogue is against the intended purpose of the perk, which seems to be to make rogues a more desired teammate rather than a pure solo. I think a lot of people are jumping on the "give it to bards" train mainly because of the perks name and because bards were kinda weak.

[rocky warren]

eh rogues could be desirable teammates for a lot of reasons already. 1. the lockpick perk 2. baiting and ambushing from stealth 3. caltrops and smoke 4. fast looting they're already a good option. having a whole perk dedicated to being a good team player doesn't make much sense for rogues thematically. for as long as i've seen the fantasy rogue archetype portrayed they have been sneaky, backstabbing rats that work best alone.

[abstract swallow]

just include weight/bags/itemID and give Rogues a teamwide weight mitigation and ID speed buff since they're burglars
much better than slapping out two slots worth of the single best item roll in the game

[restive drum]

Nones of them use lockpick caltrop or smoke get real

[rocky warren]

yeah cause the player base sucks we all know this, give it time for people to actually learn the game some of them never will

their skill issue doesn't take away from the fact that they can be good teammates on paper

[lilac silo]

personally I think they (potentially) have the best solo survivability in the game
hide is the best combat-avoidance skill in the game
doublejump is very good for escapes
their movespeed is the best in the game basekit (though they lack mobility skills like rage/sprint so it's hard to say how good they truly are there)

[stoic thorn]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
I’ll bump this

Bard needs so many adjustments ngl

[rocky warren]

they are the best solo class so why not give them a perk for it? it could be a noob perk too where the higher level players opt out but it benefits new solo rogues. maybe like a small flat damage buff or damage reduction, faster looting while solo, somthing like that

[gaunt cargo]

Jokester is the noob buff perk. Higher geared players often drop it for one of the damage multipliers.

[rocky warren]

exactly so the lone wolf would be the noob buff and bard can have jokester problem solved

[gaunt cargo]

Jokester exactly addresses some of the biggest problems with low gear rogue - shitty str and will, along with the minor benefit from extra agi. I'm sure they can come up with more useful and cool things for bard.

[lilac silo]

well it's like...
they're already the best without it, and also it's not exactly relevant to whether the perk's design is healthy
why is +2 all attributes relevant to solo strength? why not just give them a perk that actually matches the design of their strengths/weaknesses and abilities? +2 all attributes would be good on any class, it doesn't match the theming of the class and it would be unhealthy design no matter who you put it on

it would theoretically help noob rogues, but high-tier rogues would exploit it even harder (as they did in this test)

[rocky warren]

they really arent the best in terms of skill floor, a solo cleric is gonna have way easier time. solo bard is a cake walk but thats just the way bard works. the good players play solo rogue but noob rogues are awful

[lilac silo]

solo bard is a cake walk...? huh? what universe are you in?

[lucid root]

lol

[rocky warren]

someone who mained solo bard for the playtest and had a 95% extract rate 😴

literally would only die if i tried to be friends with people, it so easy just to avoid everyone and pick your fights

[lilac silo]

I mean that's impressive if true, but I'd need evidence of that to truly believe it

regardless, just giving a class +2 all as a basekit perk is not good design

[gentle otter]

"leave blood on the floors/walls in where fighting occurred and hits landed to tell a small story of what happened in the fight and clue other players in" i feel like this needs to be heard more and expanded on. Fireballs should leave scorch marks, chain lightning should leave a cracked burn mark, zap could look like a small hole. blunt weapons should leave bruses and dents, slashes should cut through cloth

[stoic thorn]

Ah sht I started a debate

[lilac silo]

nah, someone suggesting giving rogue a solo-only jokester did

[rocky warren]

if you can't extract as a solo bard idk what to tell you, you can clear the entire dungeon of mobs without even the slightest threat of damage from npcs. easily just run and loot, use all your gold to buy ale, repeat. the pen is the only weapon i need

other players? not a problem i just speed boost and close a door and aggro all the nps on them. i see a team and someones lagging behind? give em a little pokey poke

[stoic thorn]

Can you 1v3 as solo bard?

[rocky warren]

not head on obviously, can i outsmart a team of 3 and use the environment to my advantage? 10000%

[lilac silo]

generally 1v3ing is a bad idea as any class, but obviously your tactics affect it
bard is definitely on the low end of the 1v3 spectrum

in terms of rat style and avoidance, they're not bad I'd say though

[rocky warren]

people don't even play bard right so there's that. it doesn't really matter if they seem weak when most people just play bard like a weaker ranger

[lilac silo]

personally I don't even know what "playing bard right" looks like
they don't excel in any department, every other class has a very dangerous specialization but bard is kinda just "here's a few generally useful things but nothing that will win you a fight"

bard doesn't have a hide, or a rage, or good armor, or meaningful buffs

(assuming they're even meant to be on par with other classes, of course. it's possible they're meant to be a goofy, less effective class)

[rocky warren]

mostly people not using their lute enough, not healing people who have healable health, not spamming accell when we are getting chased. stuff like that, also people not letting the npcs aggro each other when the bard plays the chaos song but that's just people in general not knowing it could do that. pacify has big potential but it takes coordination within the team to capitalize on it

[signal rain]

Yea bard needs improvement. It does some cool things but as a whole every class is a better option to have in a 3 man

[lilac silo]

I think the only "encounter-winning" skill bard has is pacify, and that's because wizards can still cast while under its effect
that's probably unintended and the moment that gets patched, bard won't have much to work with in terms of true power

[glacial sphinx]

Bard is basically ccing itself while providing support that is inferior to a clerics' as it is. With a bard you're essentially playing 2v3 or maybe 2.5 v3 at best. Some of their stuff needs to last longer than the actual playtime of the song so they can actually do some fighting. Or the buffs need to be that much more powerful, but I don't really think only playing songs is a great playstyle.

[rocky warren]

just let bard be the weird step child support we all know everyone wants a brainded cleric to pocket heal them they are the most requested class in the gathering hall

[glacial sphinx]

Well it doesn't need to fundamentally change imo, if the buffs just lasted a bit longer so you could use your skills and weapons for a bit in between playing I think it can be fine. It wouldn't become a cleric copy

and ofc they can add some more songs and perks

[lilac silo]

the buffs can't be as strong because they're infinite use, but that really limits their power

accelerando is probably the best one, but it'd be miles better if the bard could move quicker while playing it so they benefit more from the boost

[trail forge]

What does this even mean?

[smoky yoke]

[rocky warren]

yeah would suck if someone could just like heal someone infinitely by resting to recharge spells talk about bustd

[trail forge]

Not wrong

[lilac silo]

resting is a good mechanic for wizard
don't know about cleric
it scales with knowledge, so maybe cleric needs a knowledge nerf or something idk

[glacial sphinx]

Well they're infinite use but they also have more execute time, so there is more opportunity cost in terms of lost bonking/slashing time. And they can't be stacked as much as the cleric buffs can. That leaves slightly more room for making them powerful. And resting I feel isn't the most meta defining thing when people can chain chug clarity.

[smoky yoke]

you can also take a clarity potion and rest at the same time and it will stack

[lilac silo]

or they could up the tiers of cleric's spells so they take longer to rest

[trail forge]

Talking about bard balance as the class is now - especially as it compares to cleric - is a fool's errand, though I'm sure everyone's intentions are well meaning.

It's like the bard players pretending they are authorities because they placed on the HR leader boards even though 1st place was like 15 kills and the only top 100 bard got carried by his team.

There's zero sense in pretending this play test netted us any useful feedback about bard other than its a class that's maybe 30% finished and knowing the devs at IM will not continue in this state

[lilac silo]

as usual, it's a mistake to care about balance this early into development
obviously something that was just added and hasn't been tested yet or finished isn't going to be in an ideal state
gotta let them finish the game

[lucid root]

bard gear was cheap af though, best part of the pt

[trail forge]

I thought it was kind of wild the class with the least amount of offensive options also has the least tanky class gear haha. The pricing checks out

[glacial sphinx]

Well I don't think what I said was necessarily about balance, but also about gameplay. To me it didnt feel great that buff and perk effects ended almost immediately after finishing the song, since you didn't get to weave in any swings/shots

[smoky yoke]

according to different dev qna, bard was very unlikely to be in the playtest 5, they just added for fun so that players could try it even though not completed and it's fine
in the future would be most likely completed, adding features ect

even ranger still not completed
missing of the additional type of arrows

[glacial sphinx]

sure and supposedly there will be talent trees and probably more spells for wizards etc

[smoky yoke]

we love casting spells

[gentle otter]

true, however people voicing opinions about how it is now so that the devs can get some sort of footing on how the community uses the character

[lucid root]

frozen orb, blizzard, ball lightning

[smoky yoke]

to be honest i'd like a spell area denial like cleric for wizard

blizzard or meteor swarm

[glacial sphinx]

fire wall, disintegrate (short channel) petrify

[lilac silo]

give fireball the funny ground effect that the skeleton mages have

[smoky yoke]

[trail forge]

My theory is that the devs are skeptical about Peacemaking being too powerful on paper so they let the class ride as is.

I also think that, knowing Terrance played a bard in EQ, it's not a coincidence that you can almost maintain 100% up time on accelerando and tranquility when played back to back.

I hope they fix the issue of people abusing error noted to play the song faster and reward us by playing the song correct for the first 3 notes and having it auto complete, while giving us the same robust support kit that cleric has given how strong they are in physcial/judgment combat

[lucid root]

pros: wizard getting new spells, cons: they're gonna add a magic protection pot fml

[median nymph]

if they added that id guess it would be a perk

[smoky yoke]

i like those spells for cleric because it's nice
new ways to fight, more diversity
and gives those extra seconds to think ect

[gentle otter]

i feel like the worlock class should have some sort of magical trap

[glacial sphinx]

Yeah was cool to see some new spells for cleric as well

[trail forge]

Cleric is going to suffer from spell bloat so the devs can feel justified having 2 spell memory slots

[glacial sphinx]

But yeah would like to see some more wizard ones as well. Think it would be interesting if there were another offensive spell thats useable in PVE other than MM. Some utility like petrify/ wall of stone or misty step as well I guess.

[lucid root]

10 spell wizard will be insane if they just had like 2 more good spells

[trail forge]

I think you're likely onto something as far as utility goes. The devs had said they see the wizard basically as support and they have plans for a more pure damage oriented caster in the future

[smoky yoke]

I'm not sure about this, but isn't playing a song with mistakes, make some songs less efficient? like the one where you can recover the recoverable HPs
iirc with mistakes, it will not heal at the same as playing the song perfect with no mistakes
but i'm not sure
btw yea you could play songs faster like that. I'm not sure if it's intended or unintended
some specific songs if you do more than 2-3 mistakes then the song won't really start at least

[glacial sphinx]

well theres also memory costs to consider, it can take quite a lot to load out multiple high level spells

[trail forge]

So accelderando and tranquility have tiers of success, but any song can be abused to finish early after you successfully play the first 3 notes.

The issue is that the songs are already so underwhelming - were talking about restoring a grand total of 2 to 4 hp with tranquility and a very small movement speed buff when "quick casted" - that forcing us to play them incorrectly, along with the audio of playing a song poorly, doesn't really feel warranted

[smoky yoke]

ah yea

[trail forge]

All it functionally does is let us put the lute away sooner, the people who are huge proponents of "quick casting" wont own the fact that they would have been more effective simply not taking the lute out at all mid combat, or even worse, simply playing another class

[smoky yoke]

i hope in future we will be able to play the lute also for fun manually with some cool system

[trail forge]

Maybe, but as someone who wants to main bard and has seen what the devs have done to ranger and to a lesser extent wizard: I really hope they don't balance the class around pve or anything that isn't pvp.

Being able to free play would be awesome, but I don't want the class to be a gimmick

[smoky yoke]

yea i agree
we will see in future about the Bard

[trail forge]

Oh lmao I didn't even realize they added the icon. Thank you and yours for that 🙏

[smoky yoke]

[glacial sphinx]

Yeah think some kind of "free play" mode would be really cool as well

[quick blade]

You were able to glitch it into playing double notes, as well as play failed notes to craft your music in a limited way

[trail forge]

Double notes had nothing to do with the buff it was only a sound bug

Playing failed notes has nothing to do with "crafting" your own song beyond abusing a design flaw

[quick blade]

Sounds like somebody but hurt they did not try it out for themselves.

[trail forge]

Absolutely no one who played bard this play test didn't realize this immediately

I can't imagine the unwarranted self confidence necessary to think that playing the songs incorrectly in order to abuse a design flaw was unique to themselves

[restive drum]

U guys are hilarous I played everyday of the playtest not once did i die to bard see them get a kill or die to a bard on someones team

[trail forge]

I'm not sure how that's relevant at all to what we're talking about. Yes, bard is in an awful place. Anyone who pretends they aren't because they got on the HR leader boards as one with less than 15 kills is wrong and has no idea what they are talking about, as it's an undisputed fact they got carried after sand bagging their team.

What WE are talking about is how you can cheese the performance mechanic to get a song out a little faster. What @quick blade is talking about is this weird delusion that only a handful of elite players (spoilers, no one elite was playing bard, including the fact this Play test had maybe 10-20% of the players it would have if it were on steam) as some sort of larp to stroke their own ego.

[restive drum]

Cry me river what are u Shakespeare

[trail forge]

He's literally referred to as The Bard.

[reef spindle]

I know such person, it's me
I remember how shocked were bards when I told them about it

[dusky field]

Abusing a mechanic in an unintended way is not "creating your own music", it's making use of a glitch. If not for the fact that it's a playtest, it'd be a bannable offence.

[reef spindle]

This is my take on how weight system should work:

Every loot is giving -1 move speed
per slot taken

Special backpack and chest to bring to dungeon, loot inside doesnt slow you down but you only put loot inside

Armor and weapons in Inventory weight 60% less

[dusky field]

I'm already against backpacks, but then you also want the slow to nullify the effect. So... might as well not implement the backpack and not implement the loot slow-down effect. The problem with loot slowing you down is that it encourages people who's fully geared to go in and grief everyone else.

Weight system on top of inventory tetris is way too much. Keep the tetris, get rid of the weight idea. How much weight you can carry = how much stuff you can fit on the tetris

[restive drum]

yeh i cant wait to be moving 1 meter a minute with max gold and plate armor

[reef spindle]

If you have full inventory of loot it just -16% to your movement speed

[restive drum]

yeh i did well at the video game now i get punished

[reef spindle]

It seems you have no idea how stats work

[restive drum]

admit u get 0 loot every run and just camp exfills as rouge

[reef spindle]

I played bard and got 2k loot if not more as i had full inventory of weapons and armor

[restive drum]

the team leech

[placid canopy]

Ngl 16% is horrible for just playing the game

[reef spindle]

How often you have full inventory of loot?

[placid canopy]

Almost every match

[restive drum]

i got some good ideas guys im always so upset when my guys so slow in the dungeon lets add cars and enchant that makes my crossbow fully automatic with a pvp mode! how bout the pavise right? but with diffrent templates u can make with it maybe ramps and floors and pyramids

[reef spindle]

If you are always 50 slots out of 50 you could buy backpack, more slots for your loot and wont slow you down

[latent tundra]

Never add inventory weight, dogshit mechanic

[restive drum]

ok and what slot does backpack go into? a new slot so lets get this straight slot for cape shoes gloves pants chestplate helmet and also backpack

[restive drum]

dudes whole idea is lets add an issue and fix the issue poorely so its still an issue like breaking a brick wall and remaking it with tape and glue sticks

[reef spindle]

Two slots at the bottom already made for it

[restive drum]

the ring slots or the shoe and glove slots?

[reef spindle]

No

Below your inventory

[restive drum]

there not even slots?!?!

[empty patio]

Boooo weight

[restive drum]

read the whole saga lol

[reef spindle]

You know what you just described?
Every game
Players are given issue to deal with it
I am taking too much dmg, I need better armor
Blocks in tetris are moving down randomly, I need to arrange them

[empty patio]

No thirst, no weight, no hunger. No speed reduction from loot. Keep fun and not Tarkov.

[restive drum]

theres no gameplay its just buy backpack? brother u would suck as a game designer

[restive drum]

facts

[latent tundra]

Reduce quality of life for no reason

[glacial sphinx]

Don't really see how slowing down a player with loot would benefit gameplay, just benefits people camping in stealth or something and then killing some completely slowed down guy right near the end rather than going around trying to find good stuff yourself

there is already a meaningful tradeoff for having a lot loot, which is having fewer consumables

[white cliff]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

@warm nimbus What would a single player mode even look like?

[warm nimbus]

Same game no players, and make pve more populated

[obtuse lichen]

sounds boring

[warm nimbus]

Everyone has different taste 😉

[bleak junco]

go play modded skyrim

[ebon valve]

Would gems with stats be a thing people would enjoy. dont make every piece of gear have gem slots. but any variant of quality gear could have a small chance to house a gem slot for a variety of stats each class could chase to bridge a very small gap to higher geared players. gems could be obtained via mining / rare spawns / off boss content / high roller runs with dangerous mobs like champions or wizards / and make lower quality gems craftable from a professions tree or a purchasable item from the goblin trader. the stats should remain extremely low even on higher quality gems to keep the high tiered players not too high above the rest as well as the gap bridged from poorly geared players who are lucky enough to find gear with gem slots able to compete a little better against slightly better geared players. interpret the way i describe "quality" in terms of gear and gems in your own manner. for this is an idea that could be wildly tweaked by the community entirely. as the gems should not be completely game changing, rather give a slight advantage on a single extra attack given or received less or more impactful that could change the fight. The gems should be completely stacked items that are completely op. rather an extremely small nudge in combat that forgive or punish misplays or greedy minitours of players

[white cliff]

The question is why.

Why is that necessary to add, or why does it improve gameplay.

[ebon valve]

ive had several fights were ive had players on the ropes at 2-5% and they die to ai in the fight etc. having the chance to have an extra % of damage could get the kill b4 a trade is made between players. also please read the entire message. i posted it roughly 10 seconds b4 you asked why

[smoky yoke]

i'd say that gems could be cool
so that there may be less rng when it comes to rolls

[white cliff]

Don’t assume my reading speed, and this suggestion has been talked about before lol.

[smoky yoke]

enchantment or gem socketing was mentioned in one of the dev qna
And the developer said that something similar is sure to exist in future

[white cliff]

This isn’t really a place to post entire suggestions either, it’s what the suggestion channel is for and this channel is to discuss them.

[ebon valve]

my apologies

[smoky yoke]

it is fine to talk about suggestions here
don't worry

[white cliff]

Yeah, but if you want to see how it fairs post it in the actual suggestions channel. It’s just going to get lost in the chat.

[white cliff]

I mean this is just how the game and its gear system works, adding another item doesn’t necessarily change that.

It’s funny, a lot of the suggestions that are made are similar to mechanics expedition argetha already has, and that game is dead in the water.

[smoky yoke]

that is how the game works for now though
in future may change
we know for sure that something similar to gem socketing/enchantment will exist according to developers

[white cliff]

I just don’t think it matters too much. Like did cloaks really cause a change in the game as whole? I didn’t see anybody complaining capes where OP or that they even made a significant change.

But nobody was requesting them anyways.

[smoky yoke]

i like capes
they may give a hint of people being very geared

[latent tundra]

Gems could be cool, kinda like some diablo shit. Could add extra depth with gearing. Caps and limits of character power would have to be considered heavily though

[abstract swallow]

Gems could definitely work, especially with a durability system to put a hard lifespan on anything socketed

[woeful elm]

I can't make suggestions. if this is someone's subtle way of telling me my suggestions suck, just say so. I promise I won't be mad. 🥹

[smoky yoke]

i believe the bot may be currently down/having issues
no worries

[signal rain]

Cloaks were a fun addition. One you get that drip of having a cloak and 2 seeing someone with a cloak was like seeing red hyper focused on killing that person which led to some funny fights where multiple teams were focused on the cloak guy

[grim fiber]

Actually a good idea, but don't you think people (more likely in HR) would stop to loot to be faster?
I would hate it personally, going around killing people just to find it they have nothing on them, or just don't even bother opening chest

[reef spindle]

Isn't this a case already?
I remember two test ago players were only PvP, no looting

[grim fiber]

Mostly because of the end/last days (IMHO)

[abstract swallow]

That wouldn't be a drawback, that would be a good thing.
One of the main parts of Dark & Darker's strong core gameplay loop is its emphasis on dungeon navigation/interactions and map control, it's why Interaction Speed is a major with a core attribute attached to it and why so many classes have explicit interactions with locks, destroyable objects, and looting.
Your composition doesn't just matter for its combat prowess, but also how it handles downtime and how effectively it can interact with its environment.

[reef spindle]

If loot is worth the time than people will do it

[grim fiber]

Wait what you mean, you are saying that looting is core (and i totally agree) then people stop looting would be a good thing? Maybe i missundersstood something

[reef spindle]

Most valuable is other players gear

[woeful elm]

Awesome, thanks. I just like the Crafting system and have so many ideas and suggestions. Whether they’re liked or not.

Just good to get them off your chest.

[grim fiber]

Yeah agree, but would be cool to "punish" someone for tryng to extract something good? i don't feel like it, this is not like tarkov where you want to "balance" people going in ride with toooo many heals ecc

[abstract swallow]

It's not about 'stopping' or 'punishing' looting, it's about making item management a slower and more conscious decision that applies more to party composition and player preparation.
Killing someone, stashing their backpack somewhere, and retrieving it in a risky maneuver that slows you emphasizes all of the core dungeon-looter elements that make the game so consistently fun to grab treasure from in the first place.

[reef spindle]

This, also by being slowed down you wont go after other players

[grim fiber]

Yeah i totally missunderstood, Ok you have a point, i disagree personally, i don't see it like a good skill expression (just my opinion ofc) so i think i would end being pissed more than having "fun" wth it

[reef spindle]

So this could reduce player with good gear clearing entire dungeon

[grim fiber]

That's the whole point, you don't get loot so you are faster and can go down ANY other player who looted and is playing the game the "correct" way, if you understand what i mean

[reef spindle]

Especially when they do it with many utility items in inventory, like throwing weapons

[grim fiber]

Why are talking only about pockets or all the inventory? whole inventory right?

[reef spindle]

Being slowed the a little doesnt mean you will lose

But if this was a case I would suggest being able to drop your starter backpack

[abstract swallow]

Don't look at Weight as some sort of Tarkov-style 'we added this to the game to make it less fun :)' deal, and start looking at it as class identity for looting.

Rogues can move through the dungeon quickly and bypass locks, but this also means they can quickly navigate to high-value, slot-and-weight efficient items.
Fighters and Barbarians can choose to wear heavy armor, using their STR to mitigate the effect at the cost of their looting ability. Barbarians especially have access to Smash and ways to temporarily scale their Strength, allowing them to dip further into the Risk VS Reward of going overweight.
Wizards and Rangers are masters of Resourcefulness, who can carry a variety of consumables and utilities as well as specializing in slot-efficient items-- which the Wizard will also excell at identifying.
Clerics cut down significantly on a party's downtime, and have access to several helpful buffs that can mitigate the effects of Weight, but are slow to move and interact which makes their party more spread out and vulnerable when interacting with the environment.

[grim fiber]

But means you can't escape easily just because you looted a lot and they did not, idk

[abstract swallow]

Tossing your backpack full of loot on the ground as a distraction and to outmaneuver the enemy is a classic maneuver that goes all the way back to the original D&D.

[reef spindle]

DishonoredBadger told about positives of this

Sadly we can't post images here but I would post the backpack every player has

Its on the left side connected to inventory grid

[grim fiber]

Yeah as i said i can see your whole point, i just would'nt love too see it implemented, just because the "team composition" FOR ME (AND THIS IS MY OPINION) should be more flexable so people can play which class they prefere.
It is like in League of legends, playing a certain Team comp that synergize is always better, but play what you like is fun

[reef spindle]

So during a fight you may drop it to be faster in fight or escaping

[grim fiber]

Idk i feel like i have to try it before agreeing or not, i dislike the idea but maybe it feels good

[reef spindle]

And if you drop it to fight it means you are defensive player as you have to near it

[abstract swallow]

I don't think Weight will be so disruptive that it makes it impossible to play casually or with less diverse/effective compositions, you'll just have to loot a little slower, and maybe take a few less slot-efficient and more weight-efficient items like bowl and candlesticks and scrolls.

[glacial sphinx]

Looting is already slow enough, very often you can't take everything off the corpses of people you kill. I don't think it's good to make third partying any better than it already is, or make soloing worse which this would also do

[reef spindle]

Same, but I think it will give some - move speed
Not much tho
From loot alone -15 move speed max

But gear should weight more

[glacial sphinx]

movement speed is probably the most crucial stat in any pvp engagement in dark and darker, I think its a bad idea to disadvantage people that much because they looted another player or some rooms. It'll incentivize the least interesting and overall fun kind of gameplay

[abstract swallow]

Looting is insanely fast and effective, you can pile the kit of a single person into your bag with room to spare in seconds my dude. We don't have item transfer/unequip times and opening bodies takes less than half a second even for Clerics.
You can rat literally any HR lobby by just walking the edge of the zone and then looting the inner ring of coliseum to walk out with 10+ pieces of equipment.

[reef spindle]

We will have to see if any stat like STR will make you not as slow

[abstract swallow]

It'd have to be STR+RSC, like how Interaction gets scaling from two stats

[grim fiber]

Man please i play cleric, don't slow down my gameplay even more, i loot a chest and then rest to recover heals , that's it

[reef spindle]

The biggest issue is fighter with many weapons, Barb with over 10 Francisca axes, rogues switching weapons to bypass slowdown

[glacial sphinx]

it'll take you at least 5-10 seconds to go over a persons gear, rings and manage inventory if they are wearing stuff. Slowing people down with loot literally makes ratting more beneficial

[reef spindle]

Fighter may have like one crossbow, one bow, polearm, longsword and pavise
And he is switching those freely

[abstract swallow]

I do kind of like how complaints of a weight system potentially slowing you down is just people telling on themselves that they're fullblown loot goblins

[glacial sphinx]

How is it telling on yourself that you're playing the game as intended? Getting out with as much loot as you can

[grim fiber]

Ofc i play with different friends, so it is pretty normal for me looting and extracting even items i should not care, just so i can share with them, i don't like the idea of getting slowed as a cleric (even more) just because i want to get those loot , maybe is more skillfull, for sure, but having an opinion about it should not make ma a fullblown loot goblin xD

[dusky field]

You're supposed to be a loot goblin? This is supposed to be a dungeon crawling extraction game, not a Fortnite pvp medieval arena.

[abstract swallow]

oh nice you got me with my usual zinger
(if you're saying that remotely seriously though, then no lmao you're supposed to learn to identify value and manage inventory quickly and efficiently, it's one of the key parts of looter games like Diablo and PoE)

[dusky field]

Yeah, but unlike diablo and poe, you're not supposed to have such an absurd amount of items dropping so as to need a loot filter. You still got to choose which loot to pick as it is in it's current implementation. Even faster still because the circle is always closing in, unlike PoE.

Feel free to post the suggestion and perhaps the community will like it though. But I personally 100% don't. Inventory tetris is enough inventory management for me.

[glacial sphinx]

Dnno if this is a disagreement, or maybe some term confusion. getting out with max loot imo = max value, which includes identifying and managing space. So in that sense yeah you are supposed to be a loot goblin, going for max value.

[abstract swallow]

wasting time in PoE mapping is more pressure than dying in DaD is tbh

[dusky field]

?????? You don't really have a time limit on PoE. You can take as much time as you want. It's extremely inneficient, but theoretically possible. Not so in DaD

[abstract swallow]

nah, I was using loot goblin in the derogatory sense
just poking fun at people disagreeing with me by implying they're incompetents who just pick up whatever garbage is on the floor until their bag is full and then fret over what to drop

[abstract swallow]

yes but clearing slightly faster in PoE is way more important than any amount extraction is in DaD

[dusky field]

I'm gonna give up on this discussion and simply go with the democracy system. If people like your idea for a weight system, so be it. I personally think it's needlessly complicated for the benefit of absolutely noone and which would ultimately only benefit people who're already geared and going into the dungeon to play murderhobo

[abstract swallow]

I mean we ARE getting a(nother) Weight system, the devs didn't just slap a bunch of resourcefulness on people and keep it in the overhauled UI for no reason
the best we can do is speculate (and intentionally goad people into arguing about it :^) )

[dusky field]

Welp, I'm just gonna wait to see what they suggest. But slapping a bunch of movement speed reduction on items individually will only harm fresh spawns. Which is not something we want.

I'll throw my 5 cents and say that it will have no effect on your speed until you're at, say, 50% capacity, and again at 75%, forcing you to measure risk vs reward.

[glacial sphinx]

Well I don't think its right to try block anything they were planning without testing it, they have to have the ability to do that. But I don't think i'd very much look forward to being slower just for looting some stuff I doubt it'll feel great

[dusky field]

As of right now I'd say their priority should be to get the game to feel the way they want it to feel, AKA a dungeon crawling game. It's not supposed to be a medieval battle royale as far as they've said. I suggested a way in which we could keep most of the pvp while making dungeon crawling a stronger focus in the game, and most people seemed to agree

[abstract swallow]

since it's a 3 bar system it'll probably be no/minimal slowdown for bar 1, proportional slowdown for bar 2, then the overencumbered 'you do not need three backpacks full of plate boots' for bar 3

[glacial sphinx]

yeah think I saw that suggestion, at least if its the one im thinking about with different floors having different levels of PVP and different circle progression.

[dusky field]

Yep exactly. I feel like that way we get a first floor to get basic loot in, second floor for the murdering, third floor for the PVE with higher reward and SOME pvp still. Not to toot my own horn too hard but I was pretty proud of my brain when I came up with it. Seems to balance PVP and PVE in a way the devs and the community can both be happy

[abstract swallow]

sounds about right, and lines up with the Dev's vision of gradually more dangerous and limited floors

[pseudo needle]

do we know any date, when we can play dark and darker again ?

[dusky field]

Yeah exactly. I really hope they may take my suggestion into consideration. As well as some others from the community. In general the community seems to have pretty good ideas when it comes to mechanics that could work in here

[glacial sphinx]

Think its decent yeah and I liked the idea behind it, only sometimes things can also turn out a bit different from what you might expect. If the first level loot isn't great you might get mid and high geared players just roaming the map at max speed slaying people regardless of the circle. And I could also see how it might be an issue with games taking too long when you have a ~12 minute map into full size crypts into inferno.

You might need to make loot a bit too scarce in the first one to feel satisfying in order to make people not fill up even before reaching crypts. Think that happened with the original version of ruins they launched.

[quick kestrel]

I suggested 100 gold in gold pouch instead of 50 and got downvoted why?

[dusky field]

Well, games only take too long if you survive all 3 floors. If you extract on the first one, that's kinda it. An alternative was that people who didn't extract on the ruins map simply returned to lobby instead of being killed: no need to find a portal. That's less punishing for noobs while encouraging them to enter the dungeon. I think it could work well since then it makes sense for freshies and geareds to be in the same place, only with different objectives. The possibility of high-end-people to roam around and kill freshies adds to the emotion I would say, and that can already happen with the circle. Without the circle, the freshies get to run faster trying to escape

[dusky field]

It doesn't solve the hyperinflation of the game, it just hides it behind bigger gold pouches. Just like printing bills with bigger numbers: doesn't solve the issue.

[latent tundra]

Inventory weight would add nothing positive to the game

[proud tinsel]

have most gear break when you die

[glacial sphinx]

Think they can add some more gear on the vendors and maybe make the prices of stuff above grey slightly more appealing. Most of the time for a wizard or cleric buying a grey spellbook is a great choice, but white or green ones offer very little compared to the cost increase. Would help the average player have slightly better gear and also delete more gold from the system when they ultimately die

[abstract swallow]

iirc you'll be able to improve the contents of shops by questing/trading with the merchants over time

[dusky field]

It makes pvp unrewarding, why would you risk fighting someone with lots of gear when you might not even get the rewards? But I guess two of the items they're wearing being broken could work...

On the other hand, I feel there should be more things you could invest your gold in that aren't rewarded with gold per-se, and that are optional.

[glacial sphinx]

interesting, yeah that could be good. Btw for some reason I can barely get messages through this channels filter.

[dusky field]

The game definitely needs to have some more gold drains on it, something beyond gambling with the goblin. A Higher-roller and then Highest-roller, maybe even an RP tavern working as a lobby to "drink" and whatnot. Things that optionally drain gold from the market

[proud tinsel]

2 reasons people are stupid and don't know that risking pvp is bad in most situations already. #2 it solves the inflation problem.

[abstract swallow]

A normal durability system with some extra damage on death would get to the same outcome with less problems.

[north inlet]

Suggestion: Pooling lobbies as players go deeper:
#d-and-d-suggestions message

[glacial sphinx]

Think thats planned, I do kinda regret that it would mean you go a level down and then suddenly other players that were with you in the level might be gone.

[timber shore]

I have an interesting suggestion which could possibly work to help remove gold. I was waiting for more people to get on to post it. Essentially: Jewellry crafting using green/blue/purple/orange Gem Rings/Necklaces and the corrsponding rarity Gemstones + a gold fee (eg: 100/200/300/500g) to craft Rings/Necklaces with fixed base stats and randome rolls (eg Ruby = strength, diamond = resourcefulness, emerald = agi, and sapphire = knowledge). They would need to add a Knowledge base type Ring, and a 5th Gemstone type (Pearls) for crafting Will rings/Amulets.

[north inlet]

Since the map is closing, it's more likely the people in your map who exit would be in your next lobby, so I think it can be done!

[glacial sphinx]

Yeah often they will be but not always, since if your lobby of lets say 6 people is added to a lobby that needs only 4 remaining then two of them will be transferred to another game.

[north inlet]

Crafting with a gold cost, use of in-game gems, and a random output, seems legit.

Solid suggestion Spirits89 I can't imagine it not being done in the long run honestly.

[timber shore]

i just submitted it, upvote if you like! It's great because it would use in-game items that already exist. Remove gold from the economy. Increases the supply of Rings which are scarce. Additionally they could nerf amulet drop rates to compensate if they wanted to. It fits in with everything so perfectly i suspect this may have been by design. So maybe i'm only suggesting something they were already thinking of doing but i love it. Plus gambling is fun! XD

[north inlet]

Especially if the gold cost can be dynamic to give a logarithmic increase in success (spend more and more gold for less and less gold efficiency per gold regarding outcome chance).

I upvoted it. Really good!

[timber shore]

I'm also working on some interesting unique ring ideas

[hollow remnant]

thoughts on my suggestion (it failed :/) Buff cleric’s requiem perk; make it increase interaction speed on altars. Something like 1.5x, 2x, or even 3x interaction speed on altars. The terrible cleric interaction speed really hurts on altars, so I feel like this would be a reasonable buff to a fairly niche perk.

[dusky field]

I'm not sure this will work as a gold drain. Like yeah, you're taking away gold coins, but you're still inserting value into the market because now you've created more rings and earrings and whatnot. We need something that takes away gold coins and valuable equipment

[white cliff]

It’s been suggested before, I like it for sure.

[signal rain]

Am I the only one that thinks. Stuff will just get naturally cheaper on the low end and more expensive on high end gear just due to demand. And the constant Ebb and flow of gear

What’s wrong with people have lots of money and coming in kitted every game? Do you guys want to fight freshies? And if gear becomes expensive then once a new player gets out with some@gear they can sell it for a lot of money and boom even playing field

[timber shore]

Well this takes gold out of the economy in two ways, one it removes the gold you would get from selling the crafting materials (gem rings, gem amulets, and gemstones). Two, it removes gold every time you craft those items. Also, it doesn't necessarily guarantee a good outcome. The mods/rolls are randomly generated so some of the time the items made wont be very good anyway. Personally, i don't really agree that equipment needs to be taken out of the economy any more than it already is. OTOH, i do think Rings are relatively scarce, while amulets may be too common. So they could easily adjust or nerf the drop rates to compensate for the increase in supply from crafting to balance things out. Alternatively, i think a disenchanting system could be interesting. A lot of people like to horde bad amulets that they will never use and that wont sell. Since trading can also be a pain for some, especially if you're trying sell unusable junk... it might be interesting to allow players to break down green/blue/purple/orange rings and amulets into usable parts (gem rings/gem necks and gemstones) which can then be recycled into crafted rings.

[signal rain]

Feel like money sinks just make the game more tedious for the average and bad players. As the good players are always gonna have money and gear cause there killing the bad players for theirs. So any money sinks are not really gonna affect good players cause they get plenty of money and good gear of what they take from others. Where as it’s more the avg and bad players getting there loot from mobs and chests that now gotta get into these money sinks to get gear to rival the good players

Look at tarkov lots of money sinks their. But the people at the top find making money so easy they make up their own rules to make the game challenging like only use what you pick up and etc

[timber shore]

I wouldn't actually consider my suggestion as a money sink, necessarily. Yes, it would take gold out of the economy as a side-effect, but it's main intended purpose isn't to do that. And I think it would actually benefit the casual players more than the "good players" because the casual/solo players are usually the ones that are looting and trying to leave with small trinkets like gem rings/gem necklaces/gemstones. Whereas the geared 3-man groups don't usually spend as much time looting the environment, instead they're PvPing and filling their inventory space with gear/potions/bandages they looted from their victims. So the crafting i suggested would actually allow solo/casual players a way to more easily acquire rings/amulets which they could potentially sell and trade for other gear.

[small panther]

the stats do really show how op they made rogue and how they messed up wiz and clerics casting speed

[abstract swallow]

that new spell suggestion isn't too bad, it's got its heart in the right place
variations of spells with more ease of use (or higher base damage and less scaling opportunities) wouldn't just help novice wizards, but also make people wanting to specialize in specific schools/elements/spells more viable and make things like 10spell more consistent

[trim maple]

I'm on the same boat with everyone else asking for Goblin Caves Deeper portals/HR

I dont get why people are against Ironmace expanding their experimental alpha gamemode in their experimental alpha game

[abstract swallow]

the big issue is that it's pulling a lot of players away from Crypts in smaller servers, which is a problem given that the game is meant to have collapsing lobbies across multiple floors
also a lot of players don't want HR Goblin Caves simply because of how tight and dense the map is, and would rather have a unique HR solo experience
there's also the mild issue of it simply being too lucrative, goblin caves has the highest GP/hour outside of HR Inferno already due to how fast rounds are

[trail forge]

Goblin caves were made as a concession to people crying for a solo queue in a game whose emphasis is on group play. They've said point blank that they will always balance the game around group play and that solo isn't their priority.

This play test is a glimpse into a very possible player population within 2 years of the game going live. I never saw a full crypt lobby in the last couple of days of the play test.

[gaunt cargo]

I was staggered by the popularity of gob caves. I don't think that's sustainable in a group focused game.

[hasty vigil]

gob caves is a perfect tutorial area and also a place to do chill runs

[wooden ridge]

35% of players were in the goblin caves. It seems very likely they expand solo content when 1/3 of their player base is there.

[abstract swallow]

I will say that it was probably over-represented due to the number of groups that were broken up thanks to the short duration and 'additional legwork' required for this playtest
but there 100% needs to be an incentive for undersized groups to participate in the primary game mode

hey, anyone that wants free thumbs up?
make a suggestion for bard music effects to not be visible through walls

[gaunt cargo]

It doesn't help that it was overly profitable for the type of content.

[trail forge]

Goblin caves with the improved loot is 100% going to be a problem at some point in the game's shelf life. They also need to have a real match making system and stop trying to appeal to dial up era solutions

[abstract swallow]

Goblin Caves' loot as "floor 1.5" will be a lot more reasonable when we have real 3 floor dungeons

[gaunt cargo]

What do you mean by matchmaking?

[abstract swallow]

either opt-in party matchmaking or collapsing lobbies, probably the former

[trail forge]

A system that quickly assembles relevant groups

The thing about adding a 3rd floor is that I can't see it pulling a meaningful number of players from goblin caves on its own.

An automated LFG tool that can recognize and allow you to filter for party comp/ilvl/game type with a much more intuitive voip would go a long way to get the people who are afraid to go into group maps and just camp goblin caves all day

[gaunt cargo]

They've said they intend to have lobby merging between levels. Otherwise too many people get filtered for each step down.

[trail forge]

Yeah but that won't really alter the population discrepancy between solo and group maps overall. We couldn't get a full crypt map out the gate for days. It's a group game: they need to make grouping with strangers way more accessible

[dusky field]

I like solo because I don't trust other people to play with in full gear. That said, on PT4 I played with randos when I died and had 0 gear, and would go in with the gear I found while playing with them. This time I played purely solo

[trail forge]

I think a matching making system should play with having one of the adjustable parameters to join a group or invite some else be a minimum ilvl. Not necessarily to making balanced lobbies (I have no dog in that fight) but to help match people in similar gear taking similar risks

[abstract swallow]

3F maps will naturally incentivize players to gravitate towards them once they become appropriately geared for the deeper levels, even if they 'start' in GC, since they'll be struggling to reach the second half of equipment progression without extensive trading and troll bossing
this goes doubly for when they implement durability, which will assuredly tax the gold of people running higher-rarity gear and encourage them to pursue appropriately high-reward risks

opt-in matchmaking instead of the buggy lobby menu would be neat to try though

[dusky field]

People are vehemently against a matchmaking option because it goes against the spirit of the game. If anything, word it as "Lobby should have a party-making option based off of item lvl"

[abstract swallow]

that said, the gathering halls have proven shockingly good for me when I did use them
you could pretty much always find a decent spread of classes, which usually came to be better than running Crypts solo even if it was a poor comp or they were low skill
(except if they brought Bards, which were an open invitation for death-by-3rd-party)

[trail forge]

Maybe, but according to the statistics nobody really left goblin caves regardless: I think it's more indicative of people finding queuing solo to be way less stressful, and a match making system that isn't older than smart phones would help with that.

@dusky field I'm not overly concerned with the "spirit" of game mechanics outside of actual game play, especially when they are clearly hurting player density in group maps on a group game.

I also don't think we have as strong a read on the "spirit of the game" as we like to think. Exhibit A: Double Jump

[abstract swallow]

I was surprised that people were so surprised by double jump's addition
what caught me off guard was that they didn't add any baseline mobility or other class-specific mobility options to go with it
it's clear the devs had a lot of fun playing with it though, Ruins being a playground for Double Jump ||and Fly|| was very intentional

[trail forge]

It's been a low mobility game at its core since the beginning. That's why I personally was surprised. It was decidedly not an "anime" inspired new age game with its movements.

They of course are welcome to try that with every class, but suddenly its janky charm just becomes outdated and uninteresting compared to other modern BRs

[abstract swallow]

I think people confuse the game's methodical pace and high-commitment movement and actions for it being 'slow' by intention.
The game has never been 'slow', just very directed and intentional. I think that the randomized spawns, which did fix a game-breaking issue of spawncamping and death circuiting, lend a lot to this misconception.

[trail forge]

I mean there's no shift sprint, no slides, no wall running, no teleports, no mounts etc. I think you are correct calling its moments high commitment for sure, but that is because there is usually no rapid way to course correct, because movements are slow.

Like, double jump in and of itself is only as notable as it is given the context of the game itself.

[lone crescent]

Most of the players will hse Goblin Caves to learn then move on, it's not worth playing only caves

[abstract swallow]

I feel like double jump would 'fit' a lot better if there were some simple form of climbing/mantling
I mean obviously double jump is the first addition of this kind because it's very easy to program, anyone could do it with a youtube tutorial, but it's still surprising that it got implemented on its own

[lone crescent]

If they keep double jump other classes should be able to climb ledges

One class can't have so much more mobility compared to others

[glacial sphinx]

I dont think they should give everyone insane mobility though, it'd ruin melee and the threat of PVE/traps

[lone crescent]

That's why they should remove double jump imo

[glacial sphinx]

yep

[lone crescent]

It can never be properly balanced

[dusky field]

I absolutely hate the idea of the rogue getting double jump. The dude already has so much stealth. What, not only you've got to deal with his ambush / find him, but the dude can just fly away if it doesn't go his way? Nah man... If they keep that, then give my fighter a dash, and let the cleric straight up fly for all that matters..

[abstract swallow]

It'd probably work better as a walljump if they added mantling/climbing
then just slap the usual 18s cooldown/slip timers/no activation while slowed/better map design and call it a day

[lone crescent]

Fastest class, sneaky, stealth, ranged damage and double jump, nex update they give him a gun?

[trail forge]

They've said before they are focused on playing group content with your friends.

[dusky field]

Let the rogue cast fireball and chain lightning too, screw it

[abstract swallow]

they gave him the gun this update my dude

[lone crescent]

They can still reach unreachble places and become unkillable

[abstract swallow]

positioning is a strength, as is learning when to disengage from disfavorable scenarios

[lone crescent]

Yes but he disengage too easy

[abstract swallow]

my comment was implying that you should just leave when he does that, I'm sorry that my toxicity went over your head
I'll find ways you'll understand so I can continue to gas-light you into believing all balance problems are your skill issue

[lone crescent]

Skill issue lol

Every time something op gets added to every game someone will say "It's fine, learn to play"

[hasty vigil]

double jump is fun af. stop asking for fun things that are put into the game to be taken away. ask for more fun things. also git gud. rogue is fine. coming from a cleric who gets rekt by them

[trail forge]

Yikes

[lone crescent]

+++

[dusky field]

So... will they give my fighter a dash and make the cleric fly "for the fun of it"?

I'm so glad random people aren't in charge of balance...

[abstract swallow]

maybe not a Fighter dash but I'd be surprised if Barbarian didn't get a Diablo II-style leap

[trail forge]

They have sprint.

[dusky field]

A temporal movement speed boost that brings a fully-kit fighter to a movement speed comparable to a rogue or a ranger. Not to mention that's a chosen ability with a cooldown, not one of the four passives you can choose. Awful comparison.

[hasty vigil]

barbarian leap would be fun af. now there's a comment worth reading.

[abstract swallow]

honestly? that's more of an issue with Perk & Skill being a bad system, not double jump itself

[vivid rover]

#d-and-d-suggestions message this is a very good suggestion, cheating leading to RMT is a big problem in games like these, and streamers getting gear donations have a huge advantage reaching the leaderboard. This suggestion fixes both issues at once

[trail forge]

Lol "I can achieve 90% damage mitigation and completely negate my movement penalty with a cool down, that's not a charge at all." Okay buddy. It's a charge given the pacing of the game. When they keep adding asinine stuff like double jump it breaks the continuity of movement, so I see why sprint confuses you as being your gap closer.

[wary junco]

Anyone who defends double jump is kinda delusional it does not even fit into the game... never should have been added in the first place

[vivid rover]

They need to remove trading from the game @boreal flint convinced me

[boreal flint]

@vivid rover i totally agree with you. Streamers do have a great advantage in this game.

[hasty vigil]

ah you all joined april. i see now.

[dusky field]

Fair enough. Why does everyone hate the rogue double jump vs why does nobody complain about the fighter temporal movement speed buff? "Cause people are stupid"? "Cause everyone is a fighter main"?

[trail forge]

Streamers suck and the gaming industry was better before them, but at the same time the good ones will be an invaluable resource to this small indie company. I doubt even IM with their good track record of ethics will do anything to stop them getting fed loot by simps

[wary junco]

A trading limit might be usefull against that

[trail forge]

Because sprint makes sense, has a cool down and doesn't break the continuity of the games mobility economy we've had for the last 5 play tests

[dusky field]

To fix the free loot for streamers you just need to make trading completely anonymous. Can't give free loot to the streamer if you can't see who the streamer is.

[vivid rover]

well the bigger point is that the playtests were already full of cheaters, the real game will be much worse if money can be made from selling items. Removing trading removes RMT and removes the incentive to cheat. Deleting streamers advantage is a nice bonus

[dusky field]

So why would you want to keep the double jump if it does all of that?

[trail forge]

I'm going to give what is likely an unpopular opinion: IM needs to have a $40 price minimum and I say let them thrive off of idiots RMTing in a game with such a small gold cap. Keep banning and let them just rebuy the game if they are that eager to part with their money

@dusky field I don't, it needs to go away imo. This game needs to lean into its antiquated mobility system. It can do that really well, or try to do what everyone else does poorly.

[vivid rover]

what do you mean by small gold cap? the longer the game is up the more gold people can farm, it scales over time

[wary junco]

Either give double jump a cooldown which makes the Player think about using it or completly remove it because this bunnyhopping is toxic

[trail forge]

We have limited gold inventory. It's not like other online fantasy pvp games where we will see billionaires. Not without buying multiple accounts and its full loot anyway, that money will always go directly back into the economy the moment they have a bad run/DC

[wary junco]

Give rogues a slide or something instead where they can quickly dash into a direction that would be better then double jump

[trail forge]

Disengage

[dusky field]

Agree on both.

Also, not sure if it's a good idea to remove trading altogether. I wish there was some hyper-regulated way of implementing it, with both a flat tax and a tax based on the item rarity, and maybe something else to limit the possibility of trading.

[vivid rover]

you can already store 500g per slot by stacking skeleton keys, plus bigger gold storage items like a gold chest were leaked in the playtest files so i doubt itll stay that limited. and you can just make more characters to have more inventory space too

[wary junco]

Exactly even though since i did play a lot of wow i'd like to see that on the ranger rather... even though it might be completly broken

[dusky field]

Still hate it tbh. Any fast-movement sort of thing I absolutely despise in such a slowly-paced game

[abstract swallow]

good take
I honestly wish people would stop suggesting larger gold stacks/storage
they literally had the gold chests ready to implement after PT2 and took them out because it would just nuke the economy
the only way it would work is if gold put into them was untradeable and for fees/tax, which is a common suggestion anyways

[trail forge]

Even if you weren't talking about illiquid assets, there's still a cap on how much gold we can have, either realized or invested

[abstract swallow]

also wow, keys deprecated in price hard, holy shit

[wary junco]

Yes i do agree, but if you take mobility away you gotta give some mobility in other ways

[dusky field]

Like allowing rogues to go invisible and move while invisible? Like darn man, how much more mobility and stealth are you gonna give to rogues?

[spice zephyr]

just give rogue a perk to move even faster with just his hands out or something like that

[wary junco]

Walking in invis is no mobility persei we are talking about mobility that can be spontanicly used while combat occurs to avoid attacks

[wary junco]

You know, not even a bad idea. Or make it a bit gimmiky while he is Holding a lockpick .... you know cause rogue stealing

[spice zephyr]

I have never seen someone write per se as persei

[dusky field]

Yeah, and screw that. It's already hard enough to find and catch the guy now he also can get away to go invisible and stab me in the back again? Bro, if I catch the rogue, which is already the fastest moving class AND goes invisible, I want the damn thing dead

[vivid rover]

rogues already have the highest movespeed and high interaction speed + invis, thats more than enough. rogue was fine in PT4 before all the buffs tbh. It has to be weaker than other classes head on or it just dominates since it runs faster, rogues should be about stealth and ratting, not double jumping over peoples heads and dueling them with a rapier.

id be okay with bard getting the double jump for balance sake, but thematically itd be better to remove it completely

[abstract swallow]

that's not wrong, percy

[wary junco]

Well i totaly agree with removing it. But what i meant is if you take mobility away from a class you gotta add mobility somehow else to it.. because otherwise the class feels gutted

[wary junco]

I simply didnt know how to write it 😅

[vivid rover]

hard disagree on that. rogue had less mobility in PT4 and going back to that is the right thing to do with the mess that double jump is

ive seen mobility creep in other games like league of legends where now they have to add jumps to every new character because every other character has jumps. not fun.

[dusky field]

They already have enough mobility, do NOT give him mobility in combat too, otherwise it's impossible to catch him and it's even harder to keep him in the fight

He can't just keep getting away to go invisible and stab you in the back again. Like damn dude, how immortal do you want the class to be?

[vivid rover]

If you want to keep double jump on rogue you will have to give wizard teleport, warrior a horse mount, ranger climbing walls etc, and you wont be playing dnd anymore

[spice zephyr]

Realistically, I would rather let ironmace do their thing, They will most likely come back with a plethora of new perks for other classes, possibly balancing what we now find as busted

[wary junco]

I get it guys, dont worry. Iam on your side. ^^ i never liked double jump and never will.. it is a completly unfitting ability for the dad game.

[vivid rover]

the problem with that is that they made the mistake of listening to reddit / discord in the first place. all those new rogue perks were ideas from the community and thats just a terrible way to balance

[spice zephyr]

off with the double jump redittor

[wary junco]

Iam well aware that this perk should not have existed in the first place, i was basicly just talking about the fact that maybe you just dont wont be instandly take the entire toy away which kevin got for his birthday xD

[spice zephyr]

Comparing rogues to children seems like a very fitting idea, And I will gladly take the candy away from children

[wary junco]

Fair point, fair point. Candy is pretty valuable in dad so it makes sense

[vivid rover]

rogues will get used to it, this is exactly what happened to wizard for the last 2 tests. the class is totally in the dumpster atm

[wary junco]

They are just heavily gear dependend thats their only issue

Baseline wizard is not playable.

[vivid rover]

thats a huge issue though, when you need 3k worth of gear to perform like another class does in random blues while the base class is total garbage compared to other base classes

[wary junco]

I agree BUT wizard performs way better then any class with proper gear

[vivid rover]

nope, worst high roller stats too and the same guys that were rank 1 as wiz spammers now arent

they just dumped PT5 stats today, have a look at how bad wizard was, in normal AND highroller

[wary junco]

Like iam aware that wizard is garbo in that regard but it doesnt change the fact that wizard is by far the strongest class if properly played. Its utility and playmakingpotetial far exeeds any other class

[spice zephyr]

I kinda wish the stats were more specific, Like we cannot properly estimate the state of cleric right now due to the locust swarm problem. The kill to death data is not date divided so we cannot see how if Cleric actually performed better than last playtest in therms of Kill/death ratio

[vivid rover]

thats simply untrue at this point, wiz wasnt even top 10 in any single category, and there were people playing it nonstop on BIS gear donated by viewers for the last 5 playtests

[abstract swallow]

nah Wizard lost waaaay tooo much tech to be the highest skill ceiling class
Ranger and Fighter both have way more skill expression than him now, but that'll probably change in the future when he gets more toys and finished mechanics

[wary junco]

Well lets agree to disagree then. Because i believe that spellcasters dou to their utility and playmaking potential build in their spells are naturely better in specificly doing these things.

[vivid rover]

youre not gonna make any plays when you die after eating 2-3 arrows and the game is full or rangers and crossbow fighters. rogues also 3 shot you and jump over your spells

[wary junco]

None of them can haste invis blender you though

[vivid rover]

A single arrow from a longbow is more powerful than a fireball, it deals more damage, flies way faster, is hard to dodge, doesnt have a huge visual, can be fired a lot quicker, and is way more spammable

[wary junco]

All this thinking about spellcasters lets me want to main cleric next playtest. I imagine it to be so fun to activly peel for my ranger with binds and earthquakes

[vivid rover]

cleric was the best magic damage dealer last test, judgment needs a nerf

[abstract swallow]

LS/EQ is nutty good if you play the terrain well

[wary junco]

Truw

I always thought wtf why is judgement doing 75% of my hp as fighter xD

[spice zephyr]

yeah, the magic of stating constant numbers which don't show actual end damage dealt

[wary junco]

Still my point is about the playmaking potential of the class. Yes ranger is stronger in longer and consistent fights but if the fights are super fast wizard is gonna have the upper hand

[vivid rover]

you dont get short fights vs rangers unless they fuck up. and rogues are better in short quick engagements than wizards

[wary junco]

I hope they dont nerf cleric into the ground. I realy want to build a team up to take down bosses

[wary junco]

Yes rogues are better but wizards fill that niche that they can also support which rogues cant

[spice zephyr]

Cleric will be in a pretty good spot even if they take away half of the judgement damage and rest restore

[vivid rover]

if you want a support clerics have way more to offer than wizards

[wary junco]

And a good wizard instakills the enemy ranger anyway, barely any counter play ranger has against that besides wizard randomly walking into a beartrap while sprinting in for the stealth blender

[vivid rover]

nerfed wizard instakills nothing unless you have 3k of gear, and then you still die in 2-3 shots

[wary junco]

Yes, but the ranger will not have a Chance to even aim at you 3 missles = death

[vivid rover]

nah lol if you try to magic missile you either have gear with +20 magic damage or triple shot kills you faster than missiles kill the ranger

the stronger wizard playstyle with gear was ignite + dagger anyhow, not magic missile

[wary junco]

Idk what rangers you had in your games but if a ranger is able to react to you before atleast 3 missles were fired then your rangers either had an aimbot or godlike reactionspeed of an ultrainstinct son goku on seteroids

[vivid rover]

if youre running bis gear wizard id assume youre in highroller vs geared rangers that pay attention to the audio of you running at them lmao

invis does not mute your footsteps

[wary junco]

Which is barely hearable in actual fights

[vivid rover]

they might even have the perk showing your footsteps coming in

if theyre distracted you can get the jump, sure. but then you arent opening the fight so you need that opportunity

[wary junco]

You see that a valid point... lets look into the stats how often it was used varify your argument

[vivid rover]

it was not used because noone played wizard. why is that? because wizard was shit last PT. If more people played wizard more rangers would take that perk, its a bit of a nash equilibrium

[spice zephyr]

Imo the biggest difference between wizard and cleric is the fact that cleric is more defined, His role is to support and initiate fights. no matter how you look at it, none of the cleric spells are meant as a mean of damage offense, The 3 damaging spells are not offense oriented, they are oriented to keep control over the area, with earthquake forcing others to stay, locust swarm forcing others to either not approach, approach or even in the most complex cases, it causes teams to split. The holy strike spell has the easiest condition to punish others, as such it deals very little damage and should only be use to initiate. Wizard on the other hand focuses on pure damage and support, he has no true "area denial" abilities and as such the gear on him is much more important. The balancing is blatantly compensating the damage that a wizard deals with his spells with the tankiness of a cleric. The problem is that wizard is one of the more lag dependant classes on top of having a really harsh start. The idea of having a ranged dealer is harshly punished in a game so melee oriented, but the size of the castle does not allow wizard to shine

[wary junco]

Thats not realy a valid argument in this case since rogues were a menace. I think ppl would run that perk more often considering how bad rogue was... but stats say it was barely used. None or less it is still a valid point that i didnt think about using that perk

[vivid rover]

wizard is shit at long range though because all his spells are very bright and fly very slowly, dodging them is trivial. ideal wizard spell environment is a narrow corridor to hold down.

and the game is losing the pure melee aspect it had in earlier playtests, even rogues got crossbows now. this also hard counters wizard whos the least tanky vs arrows

[proud tinsel]

rogues were a menace on one map, beyond that they were weak af just like pt4 Invis walls fixes rogue on ruins

[wary junco]

legend

[vivid rover]

footstep perk is useless vs PT5 rogues because they just double jump at you. rogue invis is more about standing still too, not about running in

[wary junco]

I still do not believe that this perk would see much more use if wizards would be stronger, probably the sweatiest of the sweatiest would take it. But even then the information that it gives has to be used properly which is not always possible

[vivid rover]

it was in the past when wiz was strong, you can look at the playtest data from earlier tests and see that if they tracked perk usage back then

PT 2 and 3 should be most relevant for that

[wary junco]

Every 4th ranger had it last playtest. Hm

[spice zephyr]

The intend of the game is to revolve around melee combat, However you are right in the fact that 6/7 classes can use items other than lamps/bottles to deal damage at range. I fear that the game will in the end collapse to a fight of poke damage before either side decides to rush the other, which can be heavily punished. As for the slow travel rate of the spells, I have to again agree, with how trivial it is to not receive full damage from a spell, wizard is essentialy cursed to stay to mid range at best, which is not comparable to ranger's capabilities. The potential of a geared wizard is presumably offense, but with the current balance of classes, Wizard is outclassed by better comps in 3-stacks and nigh impossible to play solo with how prominent Rogues have become

[wary junco]

Lets get RMP from WoW arena best combo lul would be RWC here though

[vivid rover]

the way to fix it of course is removing hand crossbows, increasing warrior bow penalty, and nerfing thrown weapons. endless poke is quite boring compared to the melee focused game this used to be

[wary junco]

Yeah i never understood why they buffed the weapon mastery perk... 10% Rreduction is pointlwss might aswell make it with no penalty... it probably should get reverted to 20%

[spice zephyr]

Streamlining a role for Wizard and ranger would probably help their niche, currently I feel that wizard has no niche other than being the only reliable magic damage dealer(where you could still argue that rogue is weaker in that department, but still reliable). As it stands now, The only possible ranger niche I can notice is trap gameplay, since ranged damage has become so common that calling it a role specific niche is akin to admitting blindness

[wary junco]

Yeah ranger is meta obviously the only niches he doesnt fit is beeing able to compete in melee range

[vivid rover]

ranger was still in a very good spot though since its the best at ranged damage, but yeah reduce other classes ranged options

[wary junco]

Honestly though i think they just have to nerf longbow and maybe recurve a bit then it should be fine

Poor survival bow sitting in the corner and eating glue to get daddy rangers attention

[spice zephyr]

it's just getting worse and worse, last playtest it had to eat crayons and not glue, the survival bow really need a better noticable aspect

[vivid rover]

all they have to do is make projectiles deal less damage the further they fly. makes sense too, its the same way IRL

[wary junco]

Makes sense the classic dmg fall of on range. Reminds me of my good old OW1 days maining mcree

[wary junco]

Did you know the unique survival bow is a hitscan bow?

Has no traveltime its just hitscan and no bulletdrop

[placid canopy]

Weapon master doesn't even do anything to additional physical damage. It's effectively the same as or weaker than -10 strength and only affects weapon damage

[spice zephyr]

Nope, I would usually watch either mechanic explanation content or smallers streamers since I could have a more focused discussion, so I didn't pay much attention to uniques

[vivid rover]

thats really stupid. im not a fan of the uniques in general

[wary junco]

I like uniques, never had one but its atleast an achievement that i want to get eventuely. I probably would be most exited about Aegis

[spice zephyr]

-10 strength vs -10% base damage are very different

[placid canopy]

It's -10% flat physical power so if you had 25 strength it would be the same as -10 str, but if you only had 15 it's wayyy less punishing than -10 str

[wary junco]

Reflecting fireball sounds dope or magic missled

[spice zephyr]

reminder that strength is also repsonisble for max health

[placid canopy]

Yeah I'm just saying that the penalty to weapon mastery doesn't really do much

I was just using strength as a comparison for damage

[spice zephyr]

It all comes down to the figher's ability to take the role of a Barb or Ranger in my opinion. And currently I think he can copy both of them a bit too well at the same time

[placid canopy]

Last test barb was just "1shot someone and be a worse fighter after"

But that's arguably very powerful to make a 2v3

[spice zephyr]

with a cleric, yeah

Barb has been doing good for the last few playtest, keeping the same average K/D between pt 4 and pt 5 and now being the best average gold gainer in goblin cave, while clearly being stronger in a team. I think that Ironmace will strive to keep it in a spot like this since I would be better to now give more perks to classes and then see how the overall system reacts

[latent tundra]

I think what makes barb good is not needing much gear

[placid canopy]

They can invest into pure flat damage cuz they're basically already at the strength breakpoint caps and their armor isn't great so there just isn't much left outside of pure damage

[compact barn]

Ranger will always have more dps at ranged than a fighter. Same with barb having more dps in melee. I’d say Fighter is currently filling the jack of all trades well.

They just need to find a way to tone down the effectiveness of the high physical damage reduction. Maybe introduce hybrid damage weapons through enchantments or something to enable physical damage classes to have reliable chip damage on the fighter tank builds

[placid canopy]

They just need to change how their armor scaling graph is. It's superrrr weird and doesn't make any sense right now

Physical damage reduction also probably shouldn't exist as a mod or make it multiplicative with armor instead of additive

[compact barn]

Those would both be good options to adjust it I think

[dusky field]

People keep trying to add complexity to the pvp when the game is going to be a dungeon-crawling game first, pvp second

[strong cedar]

They are both of equal importance

[dusky field]

Yeah sure, but there's no need to add complexity to the pvp right now when there are many other things to deal with beforehand. This isn't Chivalry

[strong cedar]

this is true, as long as the pvp is balanced being simple is fine

[placid canopy]

The game is horribly balanced, but balance is the least of the devs' concerns rn they've stated

It will matter more once they implement everything first

[charred wing]

its just fast not hitscan

[latent tundra]

As long as broken shit isnt in the game its fine, balance is whatever as long as the game doesn’t get completely figured out as to what is optimal. The pve and pvp provide two vectors to balance around which is sick. A game like this will benefit a lot from frequent changes so people have to figure shit out

[abstract swallow]

is this in reference to the weapon clashing suggestion?
that's something the devs have wanted to implement for ages, but they still haven't finished how blocking will work so who knows if we'll ever see it

[placid canopy]

It's already possible to math out the best perks and stats on gear at least so that part is solved, just not well known

[dusky field]

Fair enough, might be interesting to see it implemented at some point, but I feel that it'd end up being a choice between only using the zweihander, or only using daggers. No inbetween

It's a cool idea in concept because I wanna see swords clashing and going pchwing but well, pretty sure there are other things more important to focus on for now

[placid canopy]

Only thing I don't like about clashing weapons is that you can still deal damage half the time anyway like a shield block

[abstract swallow]

I doubt the clashes would cause blockstun/recoil unless there was a severe mismatch of Impact values, we'd probably see something more like limbhits where you deal less damage after a nice chambering sound and some sparks with the swing slowing down.
Hard agree on other things being a priority though, we really need them to finish the substats and inventory systems. People are getting way too used to the barebones monobag-of-holding.

[arctic lagoon]

no idea whats the difference between a grey lantern and a green, no one said anything about why they are different

[dusky field]

No idea, I just always picked up the green one when I could cause it was a flex. Lol

[arctic lagoon]

i thought it illuminated more but no, i legit have no idea what it does

[rigid prawn]

A lot of barb mains getting real scared of ranged options becoming more available lol. Add more spells, add more bows! Make them quake in their boots!

[lone crescent]

When the game will be released they already confirmed spells as consumables for every class, maybe a Barbarian could spam Zap vs a Rogue

[signal rain]

Barb with a inventory of spells would be funny

[rigid prawn]

Probably would be through 1 use scrolls and stuff, ide like to see all classes (that can use it) get access to magic in some form. Rogue casting mage hand to loot a table from another room or fighter being able to take an oath to subclass paladin or something

Also, unpopular opinion, rogue was fine with the new additions (minus jokester) but because it was the new hot thing it got a large amount of traffic that normally wouldn’t be there, ruins should be adjusted to prevent total map access though

[lone crescent]

They said "small spells", i think they will be rarity related cause if they make them will related they are sheet for other classes and op for wizard

Rogue is broken, a good rogue is unkillable in 1v1

Cause it can escape too easy with double jump and go out of range in an instant, if they remove double jump then rogue is fine

[rigid prawn]

Rogue without double jump is free food for most classes, there’s a reason the community was chanting “Buff rogue” after playtest 4. An agile fighter should be flighty in combat because the point is to not take hits. With current fighter reduction, pt4 rogue would have been useless against them but with double jump could use hit and run tactics to actually win through attrition. Might as well ask to remove rogue pt4 rogue was doggy

[glacial sphinx]

The community chanting that was wrong though, rogue just needed some small buffs

[lone crescent]

Making an underpowered class op is not a good balance, there's no way double jump is the buff Rogue needed

[abstract swallow]

the overwhelming community consensus is wrong 9 times out of 10

especially because they all make the totally braindead mistake of trying to balance around the current playtest's content, resulting in the coldest takes imaginable

not us cool suggestion-discussion chat guys though, we're all smart and have good opinions

[gaunt cargo]

Rogue is completely fine without double jump, but requires more skill and thought, as it should.

[lone crescent]

I saw Rogues destroying lobbies in high roller 1vX in PT4, 2-3 hits and geared enemies were dead, ofc you die easy if you are a glass cannon

[rigid prawn]

What’s the alternative. It’s one thing to suggest something is broken, another entirely to actually solve the problem

[glacial sphinx]

they could remove double jump and rogue would be fine now, above wizard and bard somewhere around barb level

[rigid prawn]

Don’t know about you but I’m omnipotent

[lone crescent]

I'm not a developer and I'm not in charge of balance so it's not up to me to discuss the matter

They even gave him double jump + ranged option, that's just wrong

[rigid prawn]

But you can make calls on balance while not understanding it? Contradictions dude

[rigid prawn]

Why is it wrong?

[lone crescent]

The hand crossbow alone is enough for me

Crossbow is strong, double jump is op, how is it fair to have both?

[rigid prawn]

Because both are rogue archetypes that can be balanced to be more fair?

[lone crescent]

If they really wanna keep the double jump in the game they should remove crossbow or make his melee damage sheet cause he can dodge every attack imho

[rigid prawn]

Like badger has said, coming at things from a balancing focused perspective instead of what fills the game out is doing things backasswards

[lone crescent]

And make him slower too

[gaunt cargo]

You can stop typing now.

[glacial sphinx]

20 second CD on double jump, hand crossbow can't proc rupture, and the new +1 all stat helm gets some movement penalty added. Think then its roughly okay

[rigid prawn]

It’s ok to hate that style of play but don’t ruin it for the rest of us

[abstract swallow]

slap more -ms penalty on HandBow reload and make it last slightly longer and that'd be golden
(and don't let them initiate double jump while rooted/slowed)

[lone crescent]

You want to keep double jump? Fine but you need to nerf other stuff
Or you remove double jump and the class is fine like it is

He's fast, deals a ton of burst damage and have ranged option, he doesn't need vertical mobility

[rigid prawn]

All for the sweet trade off being able to die to a fart in the wind

[lone crescent]

Making you unkillable is fair then only cause you have low health

For me rogue was fine in pt4

[rigid prawn]

I think reducing damage on crossbows by adding something like damage fall off or removing rupture and weak point from applying to range like they did with throwing knives would be a nice addition to that but don’t want to make the thing useless either

[rigid prawn]

You stand against the opinions of the devs and the community, brave

[gaunt cargo]

Add the qualifier "to melee weapon" on rupture and weakpoint. Problem solved.

[lone crescent]

You too cause you consider double jump fine

[abstract swallow]

they already have projectile dropoff iirc

[rigid prawn]

Naw thats a point of debate, as is proven by our current discussion lol. Pt4 rogue was next to useless and at best a 1 trick pony with hide and ambush the only real viable way to engage a team that had any awareness at all

[lone crescent]

The overall kit of the rogue is too strong, something need to be nerfed, either double jump removed or nerf the other stuffs

With double jump the rogue is the best melee class in a direct 1v1 fight

[gaunt cargo]

-remove DJ
-no skills applying to Xbow
-add a fast directional roll with a small hitbox animation

[glacial sphinx]

I mean this is completely false though, based on the statistics from PT4

[lone crescent]

And I don't think it should be this way

[rigid prawn]

Not a bad replacement, would still keep the char flighty. Put a suggestion in for this a bit a go but didn’t do to hot.

[lone crescent]

Roll must have cooldown tho

[rigid prawn]

How so?

[gaunt cargo]

There's nothing wrong with rogue being #1 in 1v1 considering they are low prio in group play and it's a group game.

[rigid prawn]

They are only best at 1 v 1s in a no mistake situation. What makes rogue hard is that getting punished for mistakes is usually an instant death

[glacial sphinx]

Because based on those statistics rogue overall performed just fine, far better than wizard on average and similar to other classes in terms of extracts and treasure gained

[lone crescent]

That works for other classes too

[rigid prawn]

That’s a horrible stat to pull specifically lol, of course they got extracts and loot they can do both while never engaging an enemy player

[glacial sphinx]

they had better KD than wizards and clerics, 1:1 roughly

[rigid prawn]

A 90% reduction fighter can take a few more hit then a rogue can if they misplay lol

[lone crescent]

90% reduction fighter is wrong too for me, no one should reach a defense that high

[rigid prawn]

1 death for 1 kill? Sounds about right with the pants on head meta of rupture/ weak point naked rushing.

[glacial sphinx]

So you're saying they should have that advantage of being able to extract and loot without ever engaging an enemy player, but also be similar or better at killing enemy players than any other classes. Interesting balance

[lone crescent]

I'm a supporter of more dmg reduction for other classes (just a bit) and less for fighter

[lone crescent]

The only class who can engage who they want when tf they want and can't be forced into fighting but it's ok if he's the best at fighting lol

[rigid prawn]

No that extract/ looting aspect comes from the built in stealth, and the killing potential comes down to player skill so once again your talking about a fabled situation in most cases

[rigid prawn]

Being able to control fights is the one thing that gives the edge in the fight, without its a dps race everytime

[lone crescent]

There's literally a series on youtube of a guy playing rogue in high roller pt4 1vX and he does even 8 kills in a game versus geared opponents

[rigid prawn]

So? I can show you a guy doing the same with wizard but wiz “ is the worst class” statistically beside bard of course

[lone crescent]

Yes but he can just rush you without strategy and still be the best at fighting, then he can disengage at will and ambush

[glacial sphinx]

Lmao what a ridiculous argument, the free extracts and loot are built in from stealth, but the player skill alone decides the KD of the rogue? How did rogue playerskill double from the last playtest I wonder..

[lone crescent]

Wizard is heavily gear dependant, in early game he's trash

[rigid prawn]

Counter argue if it’s so ridiculous, how else do you explain it?

[rigid prawn]

That objectively untrue to anyone that sees the rogue coming. We’re playing very different games

[glacial sphinx]

the fact that they got a broken double jump and a hand crossbow plus a broken perk giving them +2 all. And a broken helm giving a free +1 to all

[gaunt cargo]

The perk and the helm are fine if you remove the other 2 issues.

[lone crescent]

If you are melee there's no way you hit a good rogue, you can see it coming but unless you have ranged weapons you are basically already dead

[rigid prawn]

Yeah Yeah compound buffs is a good way to stack a char, I don’t agree with jokester and thinks the class needs Balance, but the argument that rogue should be reverted to pt4 is smoothbrain

[glacial sphinx]

I said remove double jump and rupture proccing from hand crossbow and the class is fine

[gaunt cargo]

No good fighter or barb is going in without a ranged option. Barb only has to hit 1 achilles Francisca to kill a rogue