suggestion-discussion

[peak lantern]

CANDY/INGOT/GOLD DUPLICATION NEEDS TO BE FIXED dm me if anyone from IRONMACE sees this please

[summer storm]

That only makes the map more competitive. Higher risk higher reward.

Agreed, that's the way it should be, especially given the fact there's a triple escape portal spawn at the end it's actually viable now to fight until the end and be the last team standing. I wouldn't say ranged characters have no chance, a good Ranger is always scary.

[tidal nexus]

i had a good ranger as my teammate and he was terrified to go to ruins. being able to hit when he can dodge with double jump makes it double harder.(adding the fact that he was looking more to the sky than to the surroundings) . And thats just for ranger. imagine how hard is for a wizard. what can he use except zap? fireball? very slow , can be dodged, cant fire to the ground cuz he jumps.

[stable trout]

Rouges fine on ruins. Just take the hand bow from them.

[timber pebble]

everytime i see these "rogue are fine" commenters they're probably rogue mains lol

[stable trout]

Nah didn't play rogue at all this run 😂 got shot by plenty tho

[peak lantern]

exactly bro 😂

[granite plinth]

Rogue is def a really strong class but compared to fighter and cleric it’s fine

[wraith frigate]

xzsdd'/ That was my cat

[valid barn]

It takes one skilled fighter or a throwing axe achiles hit to dismantle the "rogue is so broken" stuff

its really strong but its still really squishy

[tulip venture]

everytime i say it thats true and they were near unplayable for playtest 4 so i think its a nice shift-its still remarkably hard to do hell or bosses

[timber pebble]

same generic "he's squishy!" argument too, so is wizard but he still got nerfed

[tulip venture]

he got nerfed ? how so?

[timber pebble]

does no one see patch changes between playtests?

[valid barn]

and i don't like that lol, wizard should definetly have a better early gearing

i just think its wise to touch whats weak rather than whats strong thats it

[tulip venture]

i dont think so where is it posted?-its not in announcements

[stable trout]

I'm just here to charge with barb. No time to check patch changes 😅 didn't they nerf mages dmg?

[granite plinth]

Tf does wiz have to do with this

[hexed kernel]

dealing with rogue as a wizard is actually easy in my experience. I just use slow then magic missile or fireball the dude. going Melee against rogue is also not a problem if you have arcane shield skill. Then again if the rogue is running away then it's maybe more wise for your team to not chase the rogue anyway.
You should only chase a rogue if you have bind on cleric, slow on wizard, or a bard in the team.

[tulip venture]

it really seems like wizard got a small buff this playtest with the rest feature i cant find anything showing otherwise

[tidal nexus]

I can see that u did not play alot on the ruins, they fall from the sky like birds, no time for more than 1 spell. And it was very popular the 2 or 3 rogue comp. just imagine

[summer storm]

MOTA — Today at 21:43
rogues and barbs are fine (i play them both)

Yeah.

[hexed kernel]

Well in ruins I had no problem with any rogue. I run swordmage build so I can 1v1 a rogue. usually 2 hits with my sword they'd run. depending on which room I'm currently in, I might chase and fireball/zap em.
It's honestly has never been a problem for me, as I have remembered most of the spot where rogue can jump onto.
Just don't chase a rogue in ruins if they went over a room-crossing wall.

[fathom bolt]

Rogues need double jump to be looked at bare minimum

[hexed kernel]

If I'm going into ruins I'd ask my cleric to bring bind. One successful bind cast will cause the death of that rogue by your wizard/ranger.
it's actually more fun in my experience having these annoying rats around me forcing me to be more aware of the surrounding.

in previous test, rogue was soo underpowered and practically useless in almost every map. Now rogue are just annoying little rats that'd jump around and annoys you or go invis and steal your loots. Still kinda crap in high-roller, but at least fun to play and fight against in other maps.

[tidal nexus]

I understand ur point, clearly u know what ur doing as a wizard or whole team, i didnt even had a cleric whole playtest. Hearing u dealing like that to rogues is making me try wizard next x)

[hexed kernel]

I've said this, but the new rest mechanics really made wizard viable to play with other playstyle. It kinda makes cleric OP, but wizard are now more fun because you can just not bring meditation and opt for other skills.

I've talked about it here,
#game-discussion message

[tulip venture]

yeah and if you have the gold campfires make them even better

[fathom bolt]

10 spell wizard my beloved

[hexed kernel]

Also, I think my suggestion on spell cost regen mechanics seems viable for the long run.
I was discussing on how spell cost regen on rest makes cleric somewhat OP, and how it made wizard playable. I made a suggestion on how to balance it.

an alternative is making a new stat, let's say "Cost Regen" which scales on let's see, how about knowledge? Seeing as wizard has double the knowledge than cleric?
We make 15 as the base value in which you get 0 spell cost/s on rest.
From there, you'd get scaling spell cost regen on rest. This will balance cleric while still creating a consistent mechanic.

[hexed kernel]

you'd be surprised how many rogue/barb/fighter panic when they get slowed + frost bolted by me
and how many rogue just start jumping around when I start throwing lights everywhere

barbs and rogues especially tends to go for the wizard first, while cleric and/or fighter focus on zoning others.
So my start so far has been slow + frost bolt the barb/rogue and let my frontline kill em real quick. They'd not expect that because I used fireball and magic missile.
Not a lot of players expect 10 spell wizards and or melee wizard

slow + missile easily take care of barbs that beeline towards you
arcane shield + haste + ignite allows you to 1v1 rogue using sword, and so far I've always won every encounter because I have a long sweep attack. Sure double jump can be annoying but if you know the hitbox of ur attack animation and properly time it with their landing, it's not a big deal.

[tawny python]

fix wizard adding some lighting/frost spell and some perks based on elements revert the buff for invis/haste make it lower when its buffed to on allies . revert duplicate spell

[wispy mortar]

I really don't think cleric is OP with the rest mechanic. I'd argue their fun! It made them stronger but they certainly didn't feel dominating, especially compared to the Barb/rogue/fighter powerhouse nonesense going on.

Really, with the addition of clarity potions, its just making low-gear clerics able to at least have very slow spell regen that the geared clerics already got through clarity potions, and really only able to spam bless/protection. And Having it scale on knowledge would make knowledge even stronger than it is for high gear clerics and get really out of control really fast.

Leave it how it is. It felt fine and fun for both.

[hexed kernel]

I still think it need to be balanced though. The thing is, wizard without spells = useless, cleric without spells is still a good zoner/melee fighter. I think there's a need to balance the cost regen mechanics. For example like how I explained here.

[tawny python]

at end game when everyone is blue or purple geared cleric can deal more then a wizard / i think he should be always a healer

[grizzled falcon]

sounds like more of a problem with gear than anything

[hexed kernel]

do they? Pretty sure wizard is still the highest total dps right?
Purple-Orange geared wizard easily kill other purple-orange geared cleric/barbs with magic missiles

[wispy mortar]

+1

Also, clerics should never be positioned as just healers @tawny python . Thats how you stop getting people to play healers. I like clerics as the classic dnd mindset of bruiser healers and I think many folks would agree it makes them more fun.

[granite plinth]

Add the adventure store back or atleast an adventure score

[grizzled falcon]

every class needs to be viable and playable on their own. If you position them as pure support nobody will want to play them, they shouldn't need to depend on another player

[tawny python]

it doesnt matter if they have the same number of stat will because the base stat of cleric dmg like swarm and earthquake and blind are way higher then the wizard one

[hexed kernel]

clerics has the option to be a full support healer/zoner or a tanky bruiser so imo they're in a very good spot currently

[wispy mortar]

That sounds like a problem with the spells that require balancing, and less of there mere inclusion. Although I felt their super low spellcount, long cast time, and low regen made them pretty hard to use. Maybe it changed at high gear scores, I never got that high.

[grizzled falcon]

imo rn gear is way too likely to give flat damage increases or spell power increases which is leading to some issues with ability scaling. I personally think in the future those stats being rarer would rectify a lot of problems

[tawny python]

i had 35 knowledge almost 70 % spell casting speed pretty everything was below 1 second

[hexed kernel]

the latest playtest has opened a lot of playstyle for rogue and wizard. And it also increased the value in previously existed abilities (cleric's bind, wizard's slow).
Imo the latest playstyle improved the playability of previously not-fun-to-play class such as rogue and wizard while maintaining the balance on most classes.

[wispy mortar]

Would be nice if the difference between a ungeared player and a max gear player is closer to 2x as strong, rather than the like 4x+ it feels now.

[uncut epoch]

Rogue double jump was a bit too strong, I think double jump can stay as long as you cant change directions mid air with 2nd jump

[hexed kernel]

Nah I'd prefer it retains current scaling. It gives more adrenaline when you're going in full kit knowing well you might lose hours worth of gear if you mess up.
nerfing the value of high rarity gear will reduce the price of it therefore less incentive to bring rare gears.

[timber pebble]

that's a good balance change but imo it shouldn't exist at all, it's kinda goofy and makes rogue too hard to hit

[hexed kernel]

I mean, risk of losing rare gear is the main reason why loot extraction game is popular.

[wispy mortar]

Except it seems like with the high gear, you are able to grind the higher bosses, and get the legendary gear with relatively little investment? So it seems to kind of make a rich-get-richer mentality. Once your there, it seems you just kind of... Win lol.

[hexed kernel]

oh I agree with this nerf. direction change on 2nd jump does make rogue a bit too strong at dodging things.

[grizzled falcon]

I mainly just think you shouldn't be getting flat damage increases on blues and greens, it leads to some weird low level scaling

[hexed kernel]

not really, you're risking losing that gear in the 1st crypt before fighting the boss. You're also risking getting ambushed while fighting the boss.
It's all about risk-reward.
The dopamine when you caught a purple-orange geared guy off-guard as a green-blue scrub is one of it.
The feeling of safety when you bring purple-orange gear knowing you'd most likely not get shitted on is also one of it.

[uncut epoch]

yeah having a blue/green item with a good roll thats way better than a purple with bad rolls feels bad

[tawny python]

i think they should fix the default stat aint no way it balanced .

[bright schooner]

anybody wish their was an enemy knockback mechanic for Computer enemies. like a weapon or ability can cause knockback animation on a computer enemy that will stagger them for a moment. i dont think this mechanic should apply to other players as we deal with to much already.

[minor canyon]

矢は無制限に戻した方がいい。
その代わりBOSSには矢のダメージに対する抵抗力を持たせ、さらに距離減衰を設定すべきだ。

又は…
すべてのclassに最初に20発の矢を所持させ、RANGER classだけはMOBを倒すたびに5発回復する仕様にすべきだ。

Arrows should be returned to unlimited.
Instead, BOSS should have resistance to arrow damage and also have a distance decay.

Or...
All classes should have 20 arrows to start with, and only the RANGER class should regain 5 arrows every time they kill a MOB.

[fossil hemlock]

I didn’t play cleric this patch but my buddy did and it seemed Cleric was really strong this patch, I think if the cleric had a “prayer” active skill similar to wizards it would be ok. That way there was a trade off for spell recovery. Getting it back on any rest is too much

[reef field]

I have a suggestion: Practice room.

Just like in some fps games there are practice mode, I think dnd should have one as well.
In practice room we can practice our swings and blocking by being able to spawn any type of monster we want, also we should be able to practice with every weapons by allowing us to pick any weapon of choice. Obviously there should be no loot 🙂

Edit 1: We should be able to choose perks and skills while in training as well, well I hope you get the idea. Additionally, not taking any damage if being hit is nice, since it allows more trial and error, instead of dying and respawning every deaths wasting time.

[crimson flax]

You mean like they already do when you go to loot their corpse? Lmao

[grizzled falcon]

Would upvote if I could. I know it's an alpha playtest so features are yet to be added but a practice room for me and my group would be so nice just to try out perks and test weapons we aren't used to

[minor canyon]

It is important to note that the maximum number of arrows is limited to 20.

[crimson flax]

My friend, consider just changing your approach then. They want to AVOID infinite arrows and Rangers effectively always having free, giant amounts of DPS and being gods of boss DPS while a frontliner runs around in circles

[reef field]

Ikr, that's what I'm aiming for. I really hope they implement this.

[fossil hemlock]

Fighter needs a little more tuning and adjustments to give it a unique identity. As it is unique gear aside, a cleric can do everything a fighter can do but better. One light heal easily is equal to second wind. And not many fighter actives synergies with passives very well. Like I tried victory strike over sprint but it wasn’t as good and you can’t activate it mid combo so you can’t reliably get it to proc on the stronger hits in a weapons combo and if you have combo attack they can’t really work together. I think if it lasted for a time similar to clerics smite it would be ok, and help guarantee you get that heal even though it’s only 5%. The other abilities didn’t interest me enough to test out. Sprint is ok. Maybe allow fighters to get second wind back with campfire rests because once you use it you are boned without a healer

[grizzled falcon]

I'm of the current opinion that longsword fighter is the only way to play the class that feels fun to me

dual wield is interesting but it kinda makes me feel more like a barbarian subclass atm

[grizzled falcon]

regarding second wind campfire, this is already a thing. White campfire fully recharges second wind, perhaps even a lower grade campfire does, idk

[fossil hemlock]

It did not for me but I don’t know if it was a grey or a bug. Thanks for letting me know

[grizzled falcon]

Unsure. I did it yesterday before the playtest ended, it definitely worked. Same with the barbarian life steal ability, any skill that has the recharge bar, really

[minor canyon]

Exactly, becoming a god of DPS with infinit arrows against bosses must be avoided.
But a5's specs allow it by bringing in a lot of arrows.

[fossil hemlock]

Exactly, longsword fighter is great. I just wish I could use victory strike on the second hit in the combo since it’s the hardest hitting. The poke is nice and parry is super fun. I noticed the parry doesn’t seem to work on daggers or rapiers, is that intended? I could block but couldn’t do the parry attack after. First time fighter, I only have time each test for one class really

I think the slayer perk should not remove heavy armor use, because at that point just play a rogue and you’ll probably have more damage and speed when you account for poison. I didn’t try hand crossbows, are they dual weildable??

[grizzled falcon]

I had the same issue trying to riposte off my rogue friend in a lobby. It would not let me do it. I'm guessing it is a bug. Also having to press mouse 2 to riposte is cancer

I saw like 3 hand crossbows the entire test, they were super rare, unfortunately

[fossil hemlock]

It was only the smaller light weapons so I figured it was intended, like you can’t party the light weapons. I can confirm it doesn’t work on rondel dagger and rapier

I only ever got one… but maybe some potential memes slayer crossbow man for a strong two shot opener while closing distance

[true pivot]

I killed a rogue who was dual wielding a dagger and xbow

[fossil hemlock]

Interesting…. Ideas for next time

Where do y’all get capes from, I only ever saw one guy with one

[grizzled falcon]

only ever got capes from dead players

[pallid sleet]

I opened a cape from one of the stone coffins in the dungeon proper, have a clip of it

[reef field]

Note that even when you riposte you still take damage if you are hit in exposed area. Since rondel and rapier has pierce attack, they might just hit you where your weapon didnt protect

[grizzled falcon]

no, it's not that. you can parry them just fine but riposte will not work at all

[subtle blade]

Idk if it's just me, but I feel like 2h weapons scale a bit too strongly. Even building high physical resistance, you'll still get 2 shot by a guy with a purple zweihander or axe. I don't have as much a problem with how strong they are early, but I feel like they shouldn't scale as high as they do, atleast not that quickly

[grizzled falcon]

same thing applies to like flanged mace etc and it still lets you riposte

[fossil hemlock]

Yea I get that aspect of the block mechanics, like alozar said we just couldn’t get the riposte attack. It would make the sound and visual of a blocked attack but clicking rmb wouldn’t attack would just drop and raise the sword back in defensive stance.

I think 2h is ok because the swing speed is usually so slow and wielding them makes you move so slow most players can dodge or block in time or just run away. So if you get hit it should hurt bad. I see them more of a zoning tool, keep players at bay and back while ranged people dish out the damage. While smaller faster weapons are better for getting in and fighting. I do admit it’s less of an issue with barbarians since they are often in armored and moving pretty fast

Often I can’t use 2h in group fights without risking doming my own teammates in the back of the head so I have to aim in crazy angles the eliminate the range and sweep benefits of the big weapons

[subtle blade]

I agree with that for open maps, but for the goblin cave the zweihander feels a bit too strong for straight controlled attacks with low recharge between attacks

I think it's partially a problem that there's no recoil for getting blocked but still.

[grizzled falcon]

in my experience goblin caves are so tight that the zweihander tends to be garbage

[subtle blade]

Ah slowmode, the enemy of progression. I might be thinking of the Longsword then I am uncertain, whichever is the one with the upheld sword stance for thrust attacks. To summarize, having 2 "nearly full epic" geared players against eachother, I don't think either should 2 shot the other assuming both build high damage reduction simply because the nature of their dps potential is differently scaled for the weapon types. Obviously there is an element of "skillissue", nevertheless, I would argue 2 shots between similarly geared players shouldn't be part of the game. Personally I feel like it just distances the roles of each class unnecessarily. Clerics are only healers, wizards/rangers are only ranged dps, rogues are only kiters and backstabbers, barbs and fighters are the only ones allowed to be in close proximity of eachother (Is my summarized sensation surrounding damage scaling shouldn't be that different).

I can agree with wide-swing and overhead-swing attacks having high damage, as they can be blocked, certainly. However, straight attacks having 2 shot potential feels overtuned imo.

I wouldn't mind if they scaled the damage after the attack type rather than weapon stats purely

[tulip venture]

rogues and do some great damage with thier cooldowns and a hand crossbow- fighters can also take longbows and crossbows

[grizzled falcon]

Longsword opens with a thrust then does 2 side swings. Zwei thrusts at the end of the combo I think

[subtle blade]

They can, and so can clerics, but when at the risk of a 1-2 shot, it's rarely worth the risk against non-garbage players

[grizzled falcon]

Real longsword threat is still riposte tho tbh

[subtle blade]

Purely in 1v1 scenarios I mean, in group content the team can make up for the weaknesses of classes

[regal lotus]

You got rangers hitting 200+ rapier swings even. Clerics when geared one tap w very fast judgment cast, nvm locust swarm. Wizards and zap from invis are also deadly. Damage / dmg reduc interactions might be a bit busted but the scaling is p busted for all classes.

[tulip venture]

yeah theyll definitely refine the scaling for full geared players with time i expect they will change how some of the stats work too

[regal lotus]

I'd prob even argue that pure melee classes are the only ones that actually should be doing 2 shots.

[subtle blade]

locust swarm was bugged and after the hotfix it wasn't as overtuned anymore. But I agree, I think those are examples that need tuning

[regal lotus]

What was the fix didn't they just nerf it to 1 cast vs 2. It still destroyed ppl w a bit of magic dmg gear.

[upper sonnet]

It only did 2 damage per second, with scaling it could be good but it used to do 1 damage per 0.1 second

so each point of magic damage applied 10x times a second.

[subtle blade]

It still destroyed when building bonus magic damage and true magic damage, but the fix i'm referring to was that it dealt more than intended, much more. with cases where it could oneshot rather than kill in a couple of ticks

Those are examples where it could be attuned to instead scale using + magic damage per second rather than per tick

[regal lotus]

I do think w all the range they gave ppl w hand xbow that you should probably be trucking ppl w a purple double axe hit . If you don't 2 shot someone atm w barb you will prob just die to range

[subtle blade]

My point I'm trying to make is that classes shouldn't 2 shot having similar gear. I just find it to be an annoyance.

atleast not in quick succession

[regal lotus]

I think the issue is a design problem. Alot of ppl have a purple axe but not full purple armor. So you get high dmg but not high Def. Also purple weapon is strong even w shit rolls and armor less so

[subtle blade]

I agree, I think base damage mitigation stats should be higher

And damage scalers for weapons should scale slower

[regal lotus]

When you say equally geared should not 1 shot, well obvs nakeds w just legendary weapons are gonna 1 tap each other in a 1v1. I don't think you can stop that

The dynamics of what gear you are wearing matters

[subtle blade]

No obviously not, but taking own experience as an example, for my last run I used all the loot i'd gathered for a solo run. And I came across 2 players teaming with similar gear stats. Me and the other cleric traded Judgement, then I healed back up, afterwhich his fighter premade came in and 2 tapped from full health, keep in mind I had like 50% physical damage resistance.

It didn't necessarily bother me, it was my last run eitherway, so I didn't really care. But for the final product I hope that kind of tuning gets improved upon

all of us had nearly full epic, with 1 or 2 blue

And if it was swing attacks I don't think that would've been an issue as those are realistically "blockable", but for thrust attacks that can be flexibly controlled I think it's a bit much

[regal lotus]

It will get better but tricky. If you make naked mitigation much better armor can become literally bad bc of ms penalties, or broken good and you get a ranged/ magic dmg meta or a whittle down and heal till heals run out meta like wow arenas

[subtle blade]

Definitely, I just wanted to put out my take on the topic to try and bring some light to one of my major concerns. Also, on that topic, I always brought 6-9 health pots even as a cleric for my solo runs to avoid that being as much of a risk 😛

[fossil hemlock]

Maybe armor can be reworked to instead reduce weapon damage pre modifiers. So the initial amount increased by physical power is less

[true pivot]

^ I like this in theory

[subtle blade]

That would be one option to reduce the base dmg impact of weapons while still making the stat rolls be impactful. I like it too

[grizzled falcon]

I spent too much of this playtest on bard which was a waste of time so I only picked fighter up the last day, really. Just bought s bunch of longswords and did that for the day

[subtle blade]

I liked Cleric while I wasnt fighting longsword fighters or barbs with any weapon just running me down 🥲

[regal lotus]

I think maybe, make high-grade armor a bit rarer, remove phys reduc as a stat. Put more on the base armor.

Then you have more parity between purple weapon and purple armor piece in general. Dont have to stack phys reduc rolls, and also stacking phys reduc is less OP in extreme cases as well

game has way too many stats in general too, and many are useless. Make it easier to obtain rolls and cater gearing.

[subtle blade]

I agree to some extent. But the value of % damage reduction increases exponentially the closer you get to 100. But that's kind of the point of what @fossil hemlock said. Increase the impact of damage mitigation stat without the "true dmg" stats is the general suggestion

[regal lotus]

then you add better graphics for diff tiers of gear, so its more understandabble and expected how much dmg someone is taking.

ATM you have no idea if this guy is taking chip dmg or actual dmg when hes in plate. He could have high phys rduc, he could have none.

I guess I want the amount of tankiness you are to be more tied to the rarity and type of armor, and not the stat roll, which you have no way of understandingg in moment in game

A guy in green tattered cloth could be tankier than a purple plate wearer atm

[fossil hemlock]

Someone would have to do some number crunching to see what change it would have on damage numbers. I saw a vid a fighter cam achieve up to 95% damage reduction physical with gold gear. If weapons are so overturned to still two tap then the damage numbers are overinflated or player health is under inflated.

[regal lotus]

nah when you approach these levels you start tickling the guy w weapons that would normallly 2-4 shot. And theres no way to know. It also completely breaks healing when your EHP is that high. His potion ticks can out heal your dmg

[subtle blade]

But I agree that the base armor stat should be more impactful than the specific rolls on a base level. Couldnt it be beneficial to have them scale separately? The off rolls and the base stats. To first reduce damage based off of armor stat as % reduction and then off of % dmg offstat reduction?

[regal lotus]

Like purple weapons you can tell its purple if you look closely, they are more shiny and intricate than green weapons. On case of crystal sword blade bbecomes blue and not green

They need to apply this to gear as well. Then also have the dmg reduc more tied to rarity than stat, so you can understand what you are up against..

[fossil hemlock]

That’s why I cannot fathom two tapping guys in gold gear. Even if no gear rolled with a +armor enchant you would still get around 50-70% damage reduction. Also the problem is if they reduce damage Pve would all have to be adjusted. I already cannot kill a boss. If I was doing even less damage I’d cry

[subtle blade]

Having them as 2 separate reduction percentages would give more base understanding of expected damage while still having impact and build variety from stat rolls. Do you agree?

[regal lotus]

yes as long as the fluctuation of stat rolls isnt this massiv 50 - 80% swing

the alternative if ppl want to hit that perfect gear rolls and feel impactful is let me see my dmg number, so I know this guy is a beast

[subtle blade]

For sure. But assuming both scaled from 0-50% given bis rolls and rarity. It would still give some understanding and balancing

0-60% for rarity and 0-33% for rolls would probably be more enjoyable tho for actual values

[regal lotus]

Yea IDK about the actual numbers nor care to math it out. Something like that could work. I am more interested in being able to make informed decisions about how to play the game in a pvp situation without full on health bars

[fossil hemlock]

That’s a good idea, have damage reduction cap at 60% and instead of additional armor enchant rolls have +% damage reduction rolls to give the rest. Still a solution is needed to make armor more impactful against high tier weapons like changing the damage formula to calculate armor against base damage then modify from there

Idk how that would interact with or affect fighter passive though

[regal lotus]

Could also just make harder hits more bloody and weak hits tink off the armor

[subtle blade]

That would be substantially harder to code and animate sadly

[teal torrent]

yesp, sounds great, until you've got a guy with purple armor rampaging on goblins cave, cuz no one got a green sword there

[regal lotus]

I dont think you will ever get away from ppl gear gapping lobbies and stomping them without ruining the fun of the game and the hardcore edge it has.

Over time though more and more ppl willl be geared in lobbies. It allready happens over a 5 day playtest

[subtle blade]

The sound could potentially be scaled after %max hp damage i suppose

[teal torrent]

I'm not saying that, just saying, at least let the under geared player do damage

[regal lotus]

I think the only form of match making I find appetizing is POSSIBLY low level vs high level lobbies. Like lv 1-5 in own lobby or 1-15 or something

[regal lotus]

well thats the thing, you want your legendary gear to feel legendary. If you make a grey naked able do strong dmg always to a leggo guy, the leggos feel bad and not worth.

[teal torrent]

starter floors like goblins and ruins, always had naked players, what are you talking a bout ? I myself had to play naked after loosing everything in high rolls, what he is proposing will make players who risk be bankrupt, and newbee killers only stronger, it won't be a strong feast on strong, but strong prey on the weak.

[regal lotus]

I never said they didnt have naked players . I suggest reading what I say more closely rather than making some weird strawman assumptions and then being aggressive about them.

Your best bet for good game I think is just knowing you cant touch that guy and avoiding him if your naked in goblin caves.

[quick blade]

One of the reasons you see naked players is because move speed is often worth more than armor. You can put on gloves helmet and boots and have more armor than any starting gear but move much quicker.

[teal torrent]

legendary should indeed feel legendary, but it shouldn't instantly wipe the floor, you've got to make it at least playable to the ones getting the short end of the stick, otherwise you will loose playerbase since a no geared player will never be geared, and a strong player will create a monopoly, this hurts the longevity of the game

[grizzled falcon]

Movement speed is arguably the most important Stat in the game. Avoiding getting hit in the first place trumps reducing damage any day

[quick blade]

Rogues and rangers tend to benefit from speed more even at the high level.

The move speed required to be able to avoid the spear and ax skellies was quite high.

[regal lotus]

Eh, I mean resets are a thing.

These kind of power level gaps happen in many games over the course of a season or expac. It doesn't kill the game. I do agree to some extent, but I don't think a naked necessarily needs to be able to kill a full leggo guy without insane skill gap.

Look at Tarkov.

Look at WoW.

Look at Path of Exile.

Look at Diablo.

You arent just able to pvp ppl in end game level builds with a fresh toon in any of these. It does not kill the game.

[potent sandal]

a geared rogue can't be faster than a naked guy

[subtle blade]

That was the point of our conversation earlier. Make it so people scale faster towards a gear ceiling to reduce the overwhelming impact of overgearing. While still giving them a substantial edge over less geared. This with the purpose of allowing less geared players to still do smth against the better geared players through outplays or skillgaps

[teal torrent]

all games that work on resets, have population problem, since they are only fun at reset, also, why play the game after 3 days if you are not the top 10% ? this just hurts the game, it won't end well in the long run, especially whin 3 of the 4 games you say as exemple aren't full loot pvp

[regal lotus]

Fresh resets will always peak your playerbase. It doesn't mean the game is bad or will "end bad in the long run". The listed games above are very evident of this.

[teal torrent]

are they ?

wow is pretty much on the decline for years in a row, PoE suffers from the same problem, Diablo has to literally re-launch to get new players ? is this the path you want for DnD ?

[granite plinth]

guys here is how to make the game better that I learned from last play test:

1. add pvp toggle to prevent pve'rs from being backstabbed while looting

2. nerf mobs because they can 1 shot u at full hp make them do half dmg

3. mobs cant attack u while looting or casting so u dont have to panic cancel and can cast ur spell

4. Improve ui by putting hotkey for 4 spells only and 1 if them is ultimate ability

[teal torrent]

pvp toggle will never happen, that's not albion yellow zone

[regal lotus]

If you play casually for 3 days and are not top 10%, and occasionally fight some big geared players and get stomped. It is fine.

There is a balance there. You do not want to constantly be stomped/gapped. Its about finding the right balance of obtainability in gear and killability and season length all that.

I dont think the problems w the games you mentioned are related to the reset nature of them and moreso related to poor management of the game itself, prioritizing profits and quarterly earnings over the player base. I have faith in IM devs to keep things interesting.

[fossil hemlock]

It has no effect. I just mathed it out and doing armor or power scaling first in damage calculations has no significant affect

[granite plinth]

Whats the problem with a pvp tiggle?

[teal torrent]

easier to make a coop floor, than "toggled" no offense, pvp toggle won't happen, that is unrealistic

[granite plinth]

Dark souls has pvp toggle and its a hardcore game impossible to beat. Why cant this game too?

[subtle blade]

Pvp toggle could be a thing for different loot caches. However, in that case pve would need big buffs. It's too easy as of right now for casual adds

[regal lotus]

ur qt i lyk u

[subtle blade]

By different loot caches i mean you cant bring pve loot to pvp and vice versa

[regal lotus]

Braukul is not a very serious poster :p dont get baited

[subtle blade]

But i still think it would be a bad thing by separating demographics and balancing

[subtle blade]

Ah ic

[teal torrent]

bruh what ?

getting stomped after day 3 till the next reset is fine ? because that will happen and you know it, so just accept that you are trash and let 10% of the player base have fun ? nice strat.

yeah sure, just tell a new player " you just need to find a balance between beeing abused by veterans and scraping the bottom of the barrel for shitty loot, find you're balance and u might be able to equip half-decent gear before the game resets... nice strat.

so the games have problems for bad management ? guess what, bad management is having a game to rely on resets, resets are not good, not in any way, there is no universe where resets are good other than speedrunning, and not even speedrunners like ther records beeing nullified, because NO ONE, likes their progress to be taken away

[regal lotus]

Again, I suggest you read and think more critically instead of looking for a flame.

As mentioned, you need to find the right balance of gear obtainability and season length.

getting stomped after day 3 till the next reset is fine ? because that will happen and you know it
No, I do not know it.. and no, that is not a guarantee at all. You can slow down the pace at which players obtain high tier gear for one, never mind a million other ways you can balance this type of issue. I already said this..

I strongly disagree with the rest of your opinions. But it does not feel very productive to continue to argue with you.

[teal torrent]

i just think you are digging a WoW hole, where you put something hard to get, than make it useless not long after, resets are no good, you can't argue against that because resets aren't good, aren't productive, resets just creat problems not solutions

[regal lotus]

ok 👍

[pallid sleet]

wipes exist to mix it up, you can hit a point with your coffers where dying doesnt mean much

[subtle blade]

It does have an effect on it. Additive and multiplicative damage reduction multipliers have different impact. Additive will increase in value as the total increases. Multiplicative will keep the damage reduction on different scales until the final damage calculation ie. (1-(physred_armor + physred_%)) is not the same as (1-physred_armor)*(1-physred_%), the first one reduces damage more. The second balances the impact of each stat individually

Currently they're using the first variation. What we were discussing earlier was using the second instead to limit the impact of precise rolls while improving the impact of higher rarity defense scaling

[teal torrent]

true, that's is indeed a problem, but just because a few select players don't have more to acchieve, this doesn't mean you can take everything away from everyone, it is basically trying to solve the problem of a select few, while causing a problem to the big majority

[regal lotus]

not necessarily.

I mean you literally opened with "noone in goblin caves has a green weapon", you keep making these grandiose assertions based on extremified, false, examples.

You can balance the reset length around the majority, not the few....

[teal torrent]

false examples ? seems like you didn't play goblins cave and spectated ? most of the players are either new at goblins cave, or trying to build up, so neither of them take much loot.

[regal lotus]

What does the word 'noone' mean?

about 50% of the time I am in goblin caves I find a green or better quality weapon I can use, never mind bringing one in.

[teal torrent]

what about new players ? they get ... ? like, resets only create problems, if you want to gear sink the overgeared players, make an activity to take it away, don't wipe the game clean ? resets are not solutions man, there are a ways to solve problems without resets

[regal lotus]

I did say already Id agree to some low level lobbies implemented , like 1-5 or 1-15 only lobbbies or something.

Just dont want to over divide the playerbase w matchmaking.

Again, I think you should read a bit more and try less to look for a flame

[teal torrent]

so your solution is to rely on rng to fight a player that certainly will be with high tier gear ? basically telling a naked guy to pray or get slayed.

[regal lotus]

Again, you are typing without even reading. 👍

[teal torrent]

maybe you aren't typing enough ? your ideias are flawed on so many points, make it clearer

[regal lotus]

😂

[light grotto]

A wipe can be beneficial in keeping the game fresh provided that along with the wipe comes some kind of system change allowing everyone to start fresh, like a new season. I also think an implementation of item score lobbies would be helpful so for someone who loses everything they can start over in a lower lobby, without fear of being one tapped by someone fully loaded; allowing for more diverse lobbies and more varied gameplay experience.

[regal lotus]

No. I am saying that you keep using extreme, demonstrably false examples, like that "noone has a green weapon in goblin caves" or "you want to solely rely on RNG to solve this problem". You need to think a bit more and stop trying to nail ppl w these dumb "gotchas".

[subtle blade]

If you want gear sinks add raids. Easy. Done make it hard so people bring mid-tier loot to learn mechanics and high tier to beat. Also make harder pve content. I cant speak for the harder map mode. I mostly played solo so I never played it. But the rest of the content (not counting red portal) is a joke in terms of fair difficulty. Resets are unnecessary. Make harder pve and people will be forced to bring their good loot to beat maps. Also add gear estimation to the decision process of who get queued together. Done

[teal torrent]

not a gotcha mate, you said yourself, " about 50% of the time I am in goblin caves I find a green or better quality weapon I can use " what about the other 50% of times ? what happen when you meet a guy on full blue or purple armor ?

[regal lotus]

#suggestion-discussion message

READ

[teal torrent]

isn't this solely relying on RNJesus ? what, are you the master of RNG and can just exclude the other 50% of times ?

[regal lotus]

You are making a fool of yourself.

@subtle blade This is a productive anti reset take. I don't mind resets personally, it allows ppl to re-enter the game reasonably without being miles behind. But raids sound fun too. I just think if you make an endless vertical progression its a bit fragmenting of the playerbase and not as fun as resets, personally.

[teal torrent]

that would be really fun indeed, I was talking with some friends about how epic it would be to get some good gear and have an incredibily difficult fight against a game ending boss, like a dragon, where you'd need multiple attempts all with decent gear in order to even have a chance, that would be epic indeed, a boss fight for acchivement and not for loot.

[hoary lion]

I don't think matchmaking would be bad if it would work somewhat like how for honor does it searching close to your skill then searching more and more leniently until a full match is found, aka try and get the best matches possible with what players are available

[light grotto]

I feel like Destiny 2 tried the raid system, and it was met with a lot of criticism that I remember, but the item score system or gear equalizing was helpful to put the game in a more balanced state

[subtle blade]

Resets can be done in an effective manner. But then they need to come with new content. Not just to bring in new players. Otherwise it would alienate the current audience

[regal lotus]

Sure but this has another problem..

I mean I LIKE beating a player against the odds or catching him off guuard and going from very weak to very strong in this game.

I dont want to end up only facing other ppl w green gear when I am in green gear. It makes it less fun and spicy....

[hoary lion]

well i would imagine it would be more of a mmr based system rather than gear based

[regal lotus]

well, then you have the gear gap still being a problem right

[hoary lion]

that's kind of also the joy of extraction type games

[teal torrent]

resets can't be done in effective manner, since it creates a loop hole where end content doesn't matter since you'll be in a cicle where you are obligated to play early and mid game in order to get to the late game ( the problem is in forcing players to do this ).

To make a sustainable game, you can't just force playstyle on every player, this is bad in the long run, since people tend to stay away from things they dislike for obvious reasons

[abstract swallow]

the gear difference problem comes from how badly attributes, gear stats, and rarity scaling works
a starting weapon is less than half as effective as its highest-end counterparts, and the same thing goes for armor (which has static penalties and native stats)

[regal lotus]

ALOT of people really enjoy playing games from fresh. ALOT of examples for this exist. It is not ruining the experience to start fresh once it grinds out and gets stale.

[light grotto]

I disagree, plenty of games use resets very well, and are successful with them. The entire Diablo franchise works on seasons, and I think people prefer that over the base system

[hoary lion]

I would hope that the game would end up getting to a state where it could be played without resets through finding that perfect balance

[teal torrent]

but why are you forcing it on everyone ? doesn't make sense, make a sugestion to have a fresh start seed, don't vouch for reseting the main game, this is not a solution, but a problem to satisfy a select few portion of the player base, when you have the option of satisfying the same player base without forcing those that don't want a reset to happen.

[hoary lion]

I personally hate resets I like to just hop on a game whenever and to still have some stuff, instead of logging on and i have nothing

[regal lotus]

in the long run what you are suggesting actually kills a game, constantly fragmenting and fragmenting a player base over and ove. Reaching a point where the only ppl still sitting on an old season are fully kitted and barely finding matches.

[teal torrent]

only players that like resets play diablo, that is the main problem man, you can't just take a part of the player base ( those who don't like resets ) and throw them out, this is not sustainable unless it really is the direction Iron Mace would like to follow and rely on

[fossil hemlock]

Oh no I was suggesting altering the damage formula to account for damage reduction first before physical power to see if that would have a greater impact, that way you aren’t still being 2 hit even in good gear. I see your logic though, it will level the field between god roll gear and other roll gold gear. The problem is the second way will weaken the protection shrines no? In a video I saw the guy got 95% phys reduction while blocking with gold gear rocking +armor enchants. The only gear that had +physreduction was the shield.

[subtle blade]

You're right and yet not quite. Infinite scaling causes boredom in games. What i'm saying is you need something like seasons which either add or change something about the game to keep it interesting. Simple resets just to put everyone on a leveled playing field isnt effective. But games such as diablo 3 previously, Apex, Fortnite (i guess) and more have provided more than enough evidence that seasons can be beneficial in revitalizing an audience

[hoary lion]

for players that like starting over fresh why not introduce a prestige system

[teal torrent]

that's not it, you don't need to have resets to treat the infinite scaling problem, you can utilize sinks, resets are last resources, because resets are problems, not solutions

[regal lotus]

Nah. Ppl like resets in Wow. Ppl like resets in Rust. Ppl like resets in Tarkov.. Ppl like resets even in games that just reset MMR like League and Starcraft. These are all quite different too in the way resets change the game and keep it fresh.

[hoary lion]

Another extraction game that doesn't do resets would be Hunt Showdown and they're still doing perfectly fine after years, I think resets are generally a sign of imbalance which forces resets to be a thing unless it's a survival game where resets are necesarry because of resource distribution in those types of games

[regal lotus]

Also, don't fall into the fallacy of trying to please everyone. Its a hardcore game. Appeal to a hardcore audience. It doesn't have to appeal to everyone, this is how you wind up too thin on resources to actually make a great game for anyone, because you tried to please everyone.

[teal torrent]

i thought you'd be one to read attentively, people that play those games, like resets, otherwise they wouldn't play those games, since the reset would be forced on them and they are against resets... it is simple, players get away from things the don't like, and when things they don't like are forced upon them, they quit

[teal torrent]

that's exactly it, they don't understand, reset are not a solution, reset in itself is a problem that needs solving

[subtle blade]

Yes that's why im suggesting decrementing scaling % reductions. To limit the impact of the possible damage mitigation for different sources. I.e best gear can cause you to take 25% dmg as an example while epic can take you to 30%. There's still a significant difference but the balancing between as well as the visibility of gear value will be more predictable

[regal lotus]

I addressed that already. I don't think you should try to please everyone. Period.

[teal torrent]

you'd be one I expected to read attentively, there i no pleasing everyone, resets are a problem that should not be inserted in the equation. Period.

[regal lotus]

Yea, I disagree and many others do as well! 👍

[hoary lion]

That's true catering to everyone is dumb because then you're catering to the lower end of players who shouldn't really have much of a say on the game state meanwhile i think it's important to pay attention to the mid-high more so

[subtle blade]

Sinks are brakes to slow down problems. I also suggested similarity gear queuing. What i said about seasons/resets was if you're gonna have them you need new content not just resets. Im not saying you should or shouldnt, im simply stating there are benefits and downsides of both

[teal torrent]

how can you disagree with resets beeing a problem and not a solution ? it is like saying you want problems to solve problems, this won't work on the long run, it is a snowball that will eventually kill the game

[hoary lion]

there's sort of "gear queuing" with high roller in my opinion and i think that helps with that

[regal lotus]

Because people enjoy resets in games. There is a reason its such a popular model.

[teal torrent]

sinks are brakes, than when done right can help with the solution of problems, hunter showdown is an example, sinks by themselves won't solve anything, you need more mechanics indeed

[subtle blade]

Resets arent a problem. Saying they are doesnt turn them into problems. It's basically the same as an expansion.

[teal torrent]

it is not a model, but a common problem, and yes some people do enjoy resets, that is why games generaly have permanent seeds, and temporary seeds, resets are not a solution

[subtle blade]

Resets are one sort of solution whether you can accept losing "progress" in a roguelike modeled game is another topic entirely

[regal lotus]

Do you know how many players love playing fresh Rust, WITHOUT even new content added?

Its a great example of how games get boring at end game but can still be tons of fun to replay.

[teal torrent]

also @regal lotus stop comparing leaderboard resets with full auto resets, like fortnite and league to diablo and even DnD, they are complete diferent mechanics

[hoary lion]

Rust is also a survival game where a reset is needed because of how survival games work mostly due in part to resources

[teal torrent]

LoL don't resets your champions and make you buy them again, nor does Fortnite resets your skins

[regal lotus]

I mentioned a wide variety of resets, for a reason. They all are a bit different and range in how extremely they affect the game.

You are supposed to read that and consider how common it is not try to cherry pick me mentioning leader board resets. How is this making a productive conversation about the game? This is just petty arguing for the sake of it. Stop dude.

[dense sand]

you guys can argue about this but the Devs already said "seasons" and resets will be part of the game, also leaderboards won't be in the release

[teal torrent]

same with dayz, if they don't reset, a monopoly occurs and eventually stagnates the game, wich is bad, this generates a reset witch is another problem since everybody looses their shit, even the guy with small base that took in a mammoth grind to finally play with his hard earned end game items

[teal torrent]

just because it will, doesn't mean it should, resets are still a problem that need solving for longevity

[dense sand]

it will and it should, devs arent gonna change that because you don't like it

[regal lotus]

meanwhile, ppl still flock to fresh classic wow or diablo 2 resets 15 years later.

Games that are dead owned by awful company that does practiclly nothing to service their playerbase. Still going strong as hell

[subtle blade]

I just hope they add map rotations with seasons. And rotate it relatively frequently (monthly or smth)

[teal torrent]

u alright ? who hurt you ? of course they won't change it for me, they will try to look for ways to change it for the longevity of the game, but if you prefer, you can say they will work on the reset problem for " us "

[dense sand]

there is no reset problem

[regal lotus]

this tbh

[hoary lion]

Well I hope that characters will carry over through seasons but inventories wont, it'd be nice to not go through leveling every time and not having access to the trade chat at the start of every season

[subtle blade]

Tru

[dense sand]

its def gonna be full inventory wipe, can't remember if they said no to wiping player progression, it's in one of the QnAs

[hoary lion]

idc abt the loot and while sure the skills affect gameplay it's not the hugest thing also trading is kind of a big part of the game imo so it sucks not being able to trade on each new character even or even at every season start

[teal torrent]

i mean, is there any polite way to say " don't you see what is in front of you ? " you said it yourself, they flock only when there is a reset, otherwise they don't play it, the game becomes dead, because it was poorly designed

[regal lotus]

You say resets kill longevity of games. I say no with examples, you provide some silly conjecture that does not even address my point.

[subtle blade]

That's why games like apex have seasonal/monthly resets to address dead time by rotating maps and avoiding stagnant gameplay as quickly atleast

[dense sand]

I think you see a problem that isn't there, you can't even seem to articulate this "reset problem" you mention. The games people keep comparing this game to aren't even full loot PvPvE, resets are inherently good for full loot extraction games. It's creates a healthy economy and reason to get back into the dungeons aside from justw anting to PvP or PvE

[regal lotus]

" they flock only when there is a reset, otherwise they don't play it, the game becomes dead, because it was poorly designed"
This is completely loaded with extremified examples and silly assumptions, that do not even connect back to resets being a problem.

[hoary lion]

If I'm going to be honest when the game fully comes out i might just sit in trade and try and do merchant things, crazy idea but having a non playable merchant character that you can trade as and you can give the gold to any of your characters but it's taxed so you can't transfer 1-1 would be cool

[teal torrent]

great, you're right, a game that is played just when they reset surely is a healthy game, you are right mate.

[dense sand]

He can't even articulate or specify what the "reset problem" is. So arguing with him is a fool's errand.

[teal torrent]

yep, they are trying to solve the reset problem, but they couldn't find a proper solution, so they make do with this one

[regal lotus]

yep ppl only play WoW when there is a reset. Totally. You are making a ton of sense right now.

The problems w these games is definitely the resets. Yep!

[subtle blade]

Let's drop the topic. Unnecessary arguing will only filter out relevant topics. It's not getting anywhere anyways

[dense sand]

Like I said there's no point in arguing with someone about a topic in which no one can specify what the issue even is.

[hoary lion]

I think apex seasons are very different from the resets we're talking about in a br you never have anything you find everything and you dont "extract" with anything

[dense sand]

Also all the examples people are using to compare in this debate do not have full loot mechanics, and are generally completely different genres with different design philosophies

[hoary lion]

the closest game to compare with would be tarkov in my mind

[dense sand]

yep and Expedition Agartha

[umbral valve]

High roller Goblin Caves. Goblin Caves leaderboard. Red portal(s) in Goblin Caves.

[teal torrent]

just read what you wrote, and maybe you'll have a revelation, because you wrote it yourself, now you just need to understand what you wrote

[dense sand]

Naw man, tbh Goblin caves loot is overtuned already

[umbral valve]

The Troll loot is overturned.

[regal lotus]

I used a breadth of examples to illustrate how common resets in games are.. OFC tarkov is closer and their reset model is going to bbe closer to what we likely see in DaD.

[teal torrent]

that would be fun, maybe a second floor for goblin caves with another boss

[hoary lion]

Hunt showdown is within the field enough to talk about but the loot is consistent and almost flat as it's all monetary and bounty based with some hunt dollars you can find around which can be huge although you are able to steal other players weapons which can be upwards of around 1250 or so

[dense sand]

You can get more items, better items, faster in the goblin caves than you can in the crypt, for some reason goblins and chests were dropping purples, as well as most treasure in the goblin cave is higher rarity more consistently

the most effecient item/gold farm in the game is the Goblin caves, a solo activity. Needs to be balanced.

[teal torrent]

just use albion as an example, healthy game, healthy player base number, they even added a fresh start seed to abide for those stuck in late game after 5 years of the main server existing.

[hoary lion]

Idk if the lucky wanderer bard perk was working or not but i found a lot of candies although i lost half of what i found by dying half the time lol

[umbral valve]

The Ruins map had the best loot because it’s description read it’s loot was turned up. They only made the loot equal to the Crypt this playtest. Last playtest it wasn’t as good as it was this playtest.

[dense sand]

albion is an Isometric full loot MMO, trya gain

[hoary lion]

I'm excited to see what they do with bard

[dense sand]

the best loot per hour was still goblin caves, the descriptions were wrong on the map btw

[hoary lion]

I hardly ran goblin caves but i remember you could go to the shelves in the south for an easy couple hundred kinda wild

[teal torrent]

what ? care to explain why ?

[dense sand]

I'm not gonna argue with you when you cannot articulate your so-called "reset problem" and that's the last time I'm gonna tell you that.

[teal torrent]

you are not gonna argue because you don't have a basis to argue, albion is the closest example of stable full loot pvp out there ?

[regal lotus]

just drop it lmao

[dense sand]

I don't even know what this word salad comment is, you need to relax and find a hobby, I'm assuming english is your second language.

[dense sand]

yeah gold sellers were rushing it over and over lol

[teal torrent]

I'm assuming you are stupd and doesn't know the meaning of dicussion channel ? you don't need to argue, nothing productive will come out of you

[dense sand]

I shouldn't be able to have easy 0 gear risk runs that can net me 200-500 gold a run solo

But I bet Goblin caves loot will get nerfed into the ground during Early Access

[gaunt cargo]

First thing I did this playtest was play goblin caves for 4 hours to hit max level and farm 3k gold before my friends got home from work. Not quite a healthy balance, but they did say that loot is ramped up for the playtests, so we'll have to wait and see.

[dense sand]

yep me too, and you know what? I found the best jewelry I looted all playtest in the Goblin caves on the shelf

[hoary lion]

Well i will say i don't like the idea of a hard reset and having a proper balance where players with very little can still have a chance while slim against geared players but you're not able to be geared every run would be a great balance for no resets but i think it'll take time and tweaks to eventually get there so for now resets seem fine to achieve that balance but by preference i would hope that it's just be a soft reset by that i mean just gold and inventory keep the characters and if it is a soft reset like that then idc they could always reset the gear never really mattered anyways unless you had a build imo

[dense sand]

that includes high roller, normal crypt, ruins and running inferno for hours,

[hoary lion]

but they supposedly plan to do seasonal resets so whatever i just hope it's soft resets

[dense sand]

idk im fine with full resets or just inventory wipes

[gaunt cargo]

For me, it was always pyramid and zombie room on HR for easy blue jewelry.
Gob cave is especially strong for rogue and fighter, as the goblins seem to have a propensity to drop green and blue 1h weps, which get those classes off the ground.

[hoary lion]

My only real problem with resets is that it's just annoying to get back levels or like in tarkov the quests to get access to basic gameplay features grind...

If there's no annoyance like that for annoyance sake then all good happy happy but i just dont like the cringe grind for stuff like that

[dense sand]

yeah tons of fighter and rogue weapon drops, I was doing it as a cleric, I would get mostly blue armor for myself, sometimes morningstars from chests, but goblins and chests dropped way too high of rarity too often, so much so that my friends and I stopped running crypts day 1 to build up our banks running goblin caves separately to then invest in team runs and HR runs

[gaunt cargo]

The loot in normal crypts was severely disappointing compared to the rest of the maps. I didn't even bother looting there for the last few days. Better off killing players.

[hoary lion]

I think it should be possible just that it can easily go horribly wrong, I will say i do love the underdog bonus in hunt where if you go in as a solo you get more money and xp which i think would be a funny idea for darknd since solo can be very risky and brutal sometimes

[dense sand]

I feel like something was off with the loot table, if you got the shelf spawn in Goblin Caves, it was a prime example most everything on the shelf is white green blue and sometimes purple, when in the crypts treasure loot was rarely above green rarity

[hoary lion]

yeah and the shelves were pretty easy to get to imo

[dense sand]

the issue is theres no risk, you can bring no gear or items aside from starting gear and if you have a successful goblin caves run it can net you 200-500 gold easily with again 0 risk

[hoary lion]

yeah i 100% agree there should be risk

[dense sand]

if its gonna be that fruitful, they need to make the other dungeons in line with it

[gaunt cargo]

Part of the issue is the player behavior, though. It would be much higher risk if everyone wasn't so friendly.

[dense sand]

but I know the economy hasn't been balanced and drop rates are turned up for the sake of these short burst tests, will be interesting to see

[hoary lion]

i feel like looting in darknd is just gathering up trash to sell to buy actually good stuff which doesn't feel super rewarding

[gaunt cargo]

Did you play much HR? The loot is rewarding there

[dense sand]

idk it feels rewarding to get good drops in inferno for you and your team mates or in HR

even if you dont want to invest in HR, if you want to start building good kits for better runs you need to start pushing inferno over and over, its fun too

[hoary lion]

but then you get drops for another class or even if you do get smth for your class you have to hope the stats rolled well or else it might as well be a green or blue

[gaunt cargo]

If they don't adjust gob caves difficulty and keep the same relative loot level, then I'd like to see them do something to increase player aggression. They could make half of the portals require an enemy soul sacrifice or something.

[hoary lion]

D: I love my pacifist looting bard runs

[dense sand]

i hope they just remove it, I think it was better when I had to solo against duos and trios in the crypts, super fun and challenging too

[gaunt cargo]

I wouldn't mind if it was removed, but I main rogue and I understand soloing for other classes is a much worse experience, so I don't mind a solo dungeon option as much I thought I would

[hoary lion]

Also I think this is a very important point to bring up straw hat swag drops the mic

[dense sand]

yeah but if you're smart, aware and patient you can successfully solo as any class in the Crypts, the issue is solo players playing like they are in a group making hella noise and not turning off torches/ hiding

[hoary lion]

Bard try not to make noise challenge impossible

[dense sand]

you don't have to play your lute

[hoary lion]

then i might as well not play bard D:

[dense sand]

if you are solo barding, you need to make some friends and run trios bard designed for groups more than any other class

[stuck leaf]

bard is the king of pve

[dense sand]

my issue is that solo players try to shoehorn soloing into games like Dark and Darker that are group centered

[umbral valve]

What do you mean it already exists in the game

[hoary lion]

Its too true.. If only I played with people. I just try and make peace with people and I believe other people see the bards struggle and are more easily befriended by acknowledging our struggles

[dense sand]

and half of them pretend they love the solo challenge but then cried for the devs to make a solo dungeon instead of accepting the challenge they claim to like

[gaunt cargo]

I thought that way as well in the PTs before gob caves. The dynamics of everyone soloing are actually quite fun, even if it ads balancing challenges.

[dense sand]

yeah the game was way more interesting when gob caves didn't exist, you were never sure if you just heard or encountered a solo player or a member of a party scouting ahead, solo rogue trolls were amazing to deal with

[umbral valve]

Wrong

[hoary lion]

I think solo is cool and the challenge should be there for those who want it, although i think that should be rewarded

[umbral valve]

Solo mode was a good addition

[hoary lion]

The ruin wall rogues... always watching

[gaunt cargo]

I can go either way, but currently they need to re-tune the challenge if they intend to keep it. I thought it was in a good place last PT where goblins where deadly and you really had to know the map well to find portals consistently. Now a good player can make it out alive basically every game.

[dense sand]

its way too easy

[hoary lion]

I would think that's due to players mastery of the area but idk the changes to gob caves

[gaunt cargo]

They nerfed the mobs and added holes to the map to allow you to drop between levels easier. Reduces the map knowledge required to get to portals

[dense sand]

also the goblin shaman is a joke now, you can just strafe and kill him never take damage

[hoary lion]

oh well that's maybe a bit troll

[dense sand]

and boom now you have the chance for a green-purple item off of his corpse

[gaunt cargo]

Cave troll was easier this PT as well, and easily cheesed by double jump with 0 gear, so that allowed for easy epics as well.

[dense sand]

I just feel the devs shouldn't waste their time balancing/developing solo content for a game designed for group play, if solos wanna solo they can solo the crypts like they used to

[hoary lion]

I'll be honest my favorite part of this game is just looting and escaping, I enjoy playing this game to just relax lol. Not really a fan of the pvp feels like half speed bad mordhau everything feels kinda just half speed the movement is also eh. But just vibing befriending players and looting is neat and relaxing

[dense sand]

footwork is everything in this game

[hoary lion]

doesn't feel exactly thrilling or super skilled to pull off though and in general most fights especially amongst melee classes is just kissing eachother till the other dies unless one has the movement to back off to breathe for a second

[dense sand]

depends, good players arent kissing

[umbral valve]

Imagine if double jump didn’t exist and we all didn’t have to deal with its bullshit in both pvp and pve

[hoary lion]

Then it becomes playing range and poke with the longest stick

[chilly isle]

how can i add a sugestion?

[dense sand]

naw you can block and then engage with a 1hander easy,

[gaunt cargo]

It'll get nerfed next PT. You'll be fine.

[dense sand]

yeah theres no way double jump doesnt get nerfed to hell

[hoary lion]

I'm just not super impressed by the general gameplay but that's why i play bard tbh because that fits how i enjoy the game so

[inland pelican]

Only issue with double jump imo is its silly compatibility with b1, can't see why it is an issue past that

[gaunt cargo]

Their options are to change double jump or completely rework the top layer map and make significant changes to both crypts and inferno.

[compact edge]

lol lmao even

[dense sand]

the Ruins was the rogue playground lol

[hoary lion]

lmk if you figure it out lol

[dense sand]

lol this has to be a joke

[inland pelican]

Why would they need to change b2 and b3? Everywhere you could get in those two places with double you could often get with single

[dense sand]

not true, theres places that are unreachable to every class except rogue in both b2 and b3

[hoary lion]

lol

[dense sand]

many of the hidden 2nd story places you can jump to, allowed rogues to double jump to areas no one else could reach

[hoary lion]

I want to post my bard suggestions to the #d-and-d-suggestions but imo i have no clue how LOL

[gaunt cargo]

There are plenty of spots that are inaccessible otherwise and particularly in inferno, there are jumps that trivialize PVE in the highest loot zone in the game. Also jumps that allow for massive gapping of people in PVP, thus dumping mobs on them

[rose trellis]

While raging barbs should be slowed from taking damage

[inland pelican]

Even if I give that to you, why is that an issue? I main fighter and bard this last playtest, either shoot them if you are observant or if they drop on you, what would you have done if they stealthed beside you to begin with?

[hoary lion]

I kinda thought it was cool but at the same time would be understandable if most of those areas were inaccessible in the next ptb

[dense sand]

theres a ton of reasons, they can then exploit that location to train groups of mobs for easy kills, they can run certain builds that make killing them at range very hard and troll people with stealth and throwing knives

[rose trellis]

Tbh I don't see rogue double jump as in issue since they should be more mobile, but if they plan to add a monk they should give them the more mobility

[hoary lion]

I suppose the problem comes as a lot of classes can't just shoot them and then they're just looming overhead like vultures waiting to bare down on you

[dense sand]

theres a few spots where they can go grab half the monsters in the dungeon, get on a chandelier above them and watch all the mobs hit eachother then jump downa nd loot

[inland pelican]

I just know a major archetype for rogues is the assassin, double jump gives you the new unexpected angles to help with that

[rose trellis]

Also means you can surround them like a pack of hyenas waiting for them to fall

[dense sand]

they don't fall, they double jump, smoke bomb and run away

[rose trellis]

Rogues should be forced to avoid straight up confrontation so I approve of them being able to get to cheeky spots just maybe slightly nerf damage

[dense sand]

if you try to chase a decent rogue running these builds they will always out speed out maneuver you, they can just constantly troll you at no risk to themselves

[inland pelican]

Train mobs? Like the bard that makes mobs kill eachother? Or the cleric that chants really quick...? Trolling with range? They are rogues, counter it or bail, why would you stick around...?

[rose trellis]

I mean you can track where they can jump to and just smack em out of the air

[gaunt cargo]

I'd rather them remove DJ and focus on improving concepts like backflip and add other movement abilities.

[dense sand]

they can change direction in mid air with double jump, its easy to hit and kill bad rogues a decent one is a different story

[rose trellis]

Yeah every class can cheese mons sometimes lol

[inland pelican]

That is part of the point imo, if they are staying ranged they are focused on almost full range buying tons of bolts and throwing knives or they are just waiting for an opening to jump down... like the archetype of an assassin IS

[dense sand]

me too, rogue needs fixes like being able to runa nd throw caltrops behind you

[hoary lion]

to be fair... bard song uptime is just half the encounter so still dangerous esp in cramped areas prob dead

[rose trellis]

I think the double jump is fun and that's what matters even if as a barb main their speed drives me insane

[dense sand]

lol I can tell you didn't run any highrollers

so while the rogue turns invis and or smoke bombs while you try to shoot him at range he continues to troll you until you get 3rd partied by another team, rinse repeat

[rose trellis]

Just leave?

[inland pelican]

This is fair, but you learn how to position most mobs so they won't reach you till you are done with the next song

[dense sand]

they can continue to follow and harass with double jump at no risk

[rose trellis]

You could never catch a smart rogue before the double jump anyway so this doesn't change much
You gotta out position them

[gaunt cargo]

If I'm running crossbow build, you're not touching me and you're not escaping me.

[dense sand]

thats why double jump is gonna get nerfed into oblivion, I'm glad you enjoyed it this playtest lol

[rose trellis]

Lmao okay

[hoary lion]

yes until you are in a corridor with the whatever it's called cleaver murder ghoul thing on you LOL

[gaunt cargo]

It's a bit of a problem. Previously, you couldn't catch me, bit I had to actually risk something to do real damage to you unless I bought 100 green throwing knives. Now I can do damage and never be touched

[hoary lion]

and their point i believe is that in a tight situation like such rogues are able to handle it with too much ease or cheese

[inland pelican]

Wraith xD yeah he is a pain, in his room I just run and dodge then run again xD fuck dealing with him as a bard

[rose trellis]

I mean fair enough they could add intentional areas for rogues or other high mobility classes in the future can use

[hoary lion]

i will say the ai are my greatest friends in killing chasing players until the player is dead but at least in those situations where i also die i was the reason they died

[rose trellis]

I think rogues biggest issue is damage tbh, I think them being slippery is fine

[inland pelican]

Yeah, aggroing a huge room of mobs and holding them like a dead man's switch lol "kill me and we alllll go down!"

[gaunt cargo]

A cool down on DJ might do it along with some map touch ups. They should probably remove most of the abilities from applying to crossbow bolts.

[dense sand]

these dudes have no clue, they never encountered a decent double jump rogue raining crossbow bolts at you with 0 risk of being hit

[hoary lion]

bard is so bad but in my mind so good bc the playstyle fits me so well

[rose trellis]

Yeah they definitely should remove it applying to crossbows and ya know what I like that, double jump should have a decent cool down and that would help a fuck ton

[dense sand]

you can tell the players that never ran highroller and saw the extreme cheesey stuff like double jump abuse

[hoary lion]

always in the rafters... the fear...

[dense sand]

lol yeah

and as soon as you get a bead on them they smokebomb relocate stealth out of view and out of reach

[rose trellis]

Dude the bard was the best thing added

[hoary lion]

FACTS

[frigid zenith]

i really don't think the double jump abuse was any worse than clerics with all their spells and earthquake or rangers with the buffs they received, there's counterplay to it and it's fun some of the other classes just need tools too

[gaunt cargo]

Half of every lobby was rogues. I think that speaks for itself.
Yes, the cleric stuff was equally as bad, but that wasn't intentional and was quickly fixed.

[rose trellis]

I will always hate ranger the absolute most without fail and would be happier if they were deleted

[hoary lion]

true! I like them adding stuff i think everyone should get cool crazy things because it's fun and not to nerf other classes out of their fun

[frigid zenith]

there were far more fighters than rogues though, and no, insect swarm wasn't the only powerful tool clerics had. holy strike and earthquake are incredible, and that's on top of the kit they already had that previously left them as one of the best classes in the game.

[warm roost]

Rogue player cope

[viral oasis]

fighter all the way lol

[hoary lion]

The rest on cleric was crazy, but honestly super welcome. All casters should have that imo

[gaunt cargo]

Nah, rest spell regen made cleric a god.

[frigid zenith]

the rest probably needs adjustments, our cleric was able to keep 100% buff uptime on all members of the party without even falling behind

[hoary lion]

tweak it some nerf it some but i think bringing tons of campfires like previous ptbs for spell slots was cringe

[tranquil dagger]

Feels like arguing if there were more clerics or rogues is pointless. If it's anything like last playtest, devs will post a bunch of statistics about the playtest in a week or two.

[gaunt cargo]

It's going to be rogues and fighters at the top by a good margin.

[tranquil dagger]

yeah probably. I'm hoping there are survival rates per class, or gold per match stats for different classes on different maps.

[viral oasis]

i hella went too hard on the mining to get got last second every time

did mange to make a cobalt hat and boots though

[rose trellis]

Was mining even worth it? I did it last play test and it was not even a little worth

[viral oasis]

it depends on the additional buffs you get honestly

[gaunt cargo]

Lol last PT I mined enough for a 3 cobalt sets and 1 ruby set. Ended up with only 2 pieces even worth wearing.

[tranquil dagger]

I think drop rates are boosted during playtest, they want to get data on start all the way to endgame in five days.

Likely it'll be more worthwhile in alpha where upgrades are less common

[viral oasis]

which are random but the stats are high

[frigid zenith]

they buffed mining a lot, only 21 ore for the equivalent of legendary gloves. could easily get a pair every match if you focused on it

[rose trellis]

That sounds like a lot of mining and as a barb main that sounds like trash

[gaunt cargo]

You're better off making a rogue alt with resourcefulness gear for it.

[frigid zenith]

it's a lot of mining, but you can pull it off in one match easily. gloves are rare too, so it's nice to fill in that hole in your gear if you need it.

[willow thunder]

Wouldn't Bard mine best now with the 25 interaction speed?

[rose trellis]

I think I would rather just play the game lol. What do you guys think of barbs being able to ignore the damage slow when raging?

[gaunt cargo]

Sure, but rogue will have the highest extraction success.

[willow thunder]

Fair

[frigid zenith]

same, this is why I didn't really mine much after testing it. feel like it would be more fun if you only had to mine once to break the ore and get everything inside

it is objectively pretty good to do if you disregard fun though, bossing is gonna be more efficient still but it's a close second in terms of value

[sour pendant]

I mean in a longer playtest or early access release where you aren't pressured for time, mining sounds like a reasonable thing to try occasionally

[willow thunder]

I just want to start the round at the top of all of these floors and keep going floor to floor deeper and deeper

[gaunt cargo]

Same, but they clearly have some design work to do on that end lol

[rose trellis]

I assumed that was the end goal

[frigid zenith]

I think if the stairs in B1 were open immediately and just put you into a queue for a full B2 it would have been a lot more fun, would have made B1 a nice place to go if you need to get gear without actively being hunted down by geared players since there's no incentive/need to exterminate them and people will be more interested in going straight down

[willow thunder]

But none of the playtests have let me!

[dense sand]

people just spammed complained about the difficulty when the ruins was the first level, I thought it was fine

[gaunt cargo]

They will absolutely have to implement some kind of cross-queuing system for lower levels if they ever want 3 layers.

[dense sand]

my only issue is what Six said, the option to go down to B2 should be always open from the start of the match, make a them clsoe if they want after 1 team goes througha nd just put a set amount of them

[upper sonnet]

Difficulty of mobs/spawns was alright it was just the Stairs opening way way too late

[hoary lion]

I would say it wasn't that bad just the wisps were a bit annoying but again i mostly played bard so idk how valid my op on that is when i just spammed chaos song

[sour pendant]

Wisps have way too much hp I thought but that's about it

[true pivot]

I reckon wisps need to be more engaging and less tanky - remember, ruins are supposed to be the easy dungeon - for example, their attack pattern is boring when you have a shield and too dangerous without

[sour pendant]

They live full magic missiles from starter Wizard, didn't bother counting hits from other classes

[true pivot]

maybe flash first, then a wobbly missile

[dense sand]

you can strafe attack them and take zero damage

[frigid zenith]

would agree with this, that's why I would like B1 to cross-queue into B2, but I think if bosses are ever going to get killed in B3 it needs to stay as is for that transition at least. it's an interesting dynamic having to hunt teams down to ensure you're the only one down there to secure a safe boss kill

[sour pendant]

In general they just didn't feel worth fighting because of the time taken

[dense sand]

that's their plan as levels collapse is to merge players into levels together

[sour pendant]

Every time I got wisp room spawn whether solo or in groups we'd just insta skip to next room

[frigid zenith]

wisps themselves weren't bad really, the problem is that you end up fighting 3+ of them at a time and that makes it really obnoxious

[dense sand]

it seemed liek they were super weak to magic damage

[hoary lion]

just make them do more dmg less hp and they'd be cool imo

[frigid zenith]

if rooms were adjusted to limit the number of wisps on you at one time that'd be nice

[sour pendant]

They're not awful no but they take a lot longer to kill than others

[dense sand]

another issue is when they increased the aggro range of monsters, it broke some areas of dungeons

[sour pendant]

For a mob that has way too many in the room

[hoary lion]

yeah it's just annoying really

[sour pendant]

I think if you lower their hp and maybe shorten agro range so that you're not fighting 4 at once they're interesting

More mob types is honestly great but the version of wisps we saw were not good for the game at all

[hoary lion]

true!

okay can we all agree smth needs to be done abt crossbow skeles? Please please please dont let me get one shot in the head from the other room from full hp

[quick blade]

They could only really shoot parallel to the ground and so could be cheesed like wraith or champion. If you jumped ontop of something they could not shoot you. the wisps

[true pivot]

which is why their shot should randomly corkscrew around

[hoary lion]

shouldn't need to cheese to kill them

only real counter is a shield which most classes dont have access to

[craggy merlin]

They should make a vr version

[quick blade]

barb fear worked and I was able to dodge the blasts with rogue.

[dense sand]

you can strafe around them in a circle and kill them without taking damage, that strat also works if you pull the wisps close togetehr they hit eachother

[quick blade]

The issue would start when 5 of them were shooting at you.

[dense sand]

thats when you cluster them together and cheese it from an object

[hoary lion]

not really an issue of when you're up close just the unexpected insta headshots were horrible to experience

[dense sand]

I never had more than 3 on me tho, I always got the entire wolf spawn on me tho

[hoary lion]

like in the four section room with chests next to the bridge crossbow skele spawns in one then headshots you from the other room and you instantly die it just sucks

[sour pendant]

Wolf ai figuring out a path around the entire map to follow me when I jump a barricade or close a door and start resting was crazy

[hoary lion]

and straight hallways too it's just first shot death usually but if you get closer it's fine

[hoary lion]

LOL that's hilarious

[sour pendant]

There's one spawn in crypt where you open door to a hallway with crossbow skele immediately infront, cab be in aggro range if it happens to have walked towards the door

[hoary lion]

yeah next to the church prayer room with the wizard?

[sour pendant]

There's a door to the left so not major issue but when it's a red skele with crossbow and just one hits me to the head as I've just loaded in that's a bit shocking

[sour pendant]

Think so yeah, don't remember

[gilded ether]

Would be fun if rogues could disarm some of the traps

[sour pendant]

There's just some spawns that are a bit scuffed with mob placement, like wisp room on ruins, that one on crypt, and the goblin cave one where you're around the corner from goblin mage +2 warriors next to the water

[charred summit]

that specific goblin cave one is actually one of my favs... as any class

[tulip venture]

you can just use the corner and pre swing the mage theres no spawn you can leave without fighting really

[grizzled falcon]

They could in p4, could they not in p5?

[charred summit]

as for the wisp room, i hate it, too many mobs and takes too long to get through

[gaunt cargo]

He means the map traps

[grizzled falcon]

Yea.... that's what I meant too. Spike traps and shit, right?

You could do that in the Feb playtest. My rogue friend stopped running the perk because double jump was way better

They may have removed the perk for the april playtest, I believe they removed rogues interact speed thing as well and had it moved to bard as a perk instead

[charred summit]

i tried it once, the red overlaps EVERYTHING... an enemy was walking over it and i was above for some reason and i legit could no longer see the enemy

i wanted to run the trap disabler with lock pick and make a break for the maze to get the good stuff in the center

[tulip venture]

the wisps themselves i think are the issue they all aggro right after you spawn

[charred summit]

^^^

[grizzled falcon]

I don't like wisps because I cant tell what their hitbox is or where they are facing

[tulip venture]

they should have the same health as the death skulls- then they would be a great room to spawn in

[charred summit]

first time i fought one, i didnt know they flashbanged ya when they died... ended up dying to the other wisps because i couldnt see and was running into a wall

[grizzled falcon]

Maybe you know what definitely should? The mucking cave bats that tank six longsword hits

[tulip venture]

but they look soooo gooooooood

[charred summit]

the bats are surprisingly tanky

[grizzled falcon]

Why are they so durable compared to death skulls? Ridiculous.

[tulip venture]

warlock should be able to scout with a cave bat familiar- that would be sick

[tulip venture]

yeah they are a bit much

[grizzled falcon]

Idk if familiar are going to happen? The AI is kinda mid as is,not sure I trust a pet/familiar ability to work well

[tulip venture]

not an ai familiar just like a spell that makes you stand still while you fly a bat around leaving your body vulnerable but giving info

[grizzled falcon]

Like eye of kilrogg

[tulip venture]

exactly just trademark free

[tulip venture]

i was thinking of another spell that would be sick -a red shield buff that reflects some balanced amount of damage for a set period of time

[sour pendant]

The warriors agro onto you in the spawn itself

[tulip venture]

fair but you have to learn to fight them at some point

[sour pendant]

I dont remember if mage did or not too but that's what I'm referring to. Not saying it's challenging just that you can't avoid it and it's instant, which just feels kind of cheap

[tulip venture]

the mage doesnt and i think only one of the warriors does

[sour pendant]

This has absolutely nothing to do with it. Reread what I was saying. The mob spawn locations are the issue, or atleast the agro range of them in those locations. Goblins are super easy which is great, but there shouldn't be spawns within agro range of mobs

[tulip venture]

yeah im sure theyll tune the maps a bit better in the future

[next flare]

I feel like last playtest it was more common to have Skelton mages drop mage gear and skeleton footman drop fighter gear but this playtest it felt random I hope it’s just a bug because I liked that if you knew the rooms you could hunt down the rooms with the class specific skeletons that dropped gear for you

[sour pendant]

It would be nice if loot pools favoured items for classes that took part in killing them tbh

[tulip venture]

it was awful that i had to fight crossbow skellys for hand crossbows tbh

[next flare]

Well archer skellys need less aim assist I’ve had times where I went behind a wall and the arrow would track around the wall to hit me

[sour pendant]

Honestly a better solution to archers is to make the double shot more consistent

[grizzled falcon]

I disagree but I do think the loot pools should be tweaked so that you don't end up with "useless" gear that is specific to a certain class. Ie a longsword that gives spell capacity or something

[sour pendant]

Like they do it every 3rd shot or something as opposed to random

[tulip venture]

that sounds like desync to me im not sure ive i heard someone complain about them shooting around corners yet but i could be wrong

[gaunt cargo]

It seemed to me like they optimized stats a bit better this playtest. Not perfectly, but better. Might have been my imagination

[tulip venture]

i agree i thingk equipment should have a set list of buffs they can have- it would help with balancing too

[gilded ether]

Disagreeing too on class specific loot, i just felt there was too much loots in general

[sour pendant]

Yeah it feels weird to get spellbook with physi power or something

[next flare]

Yea it probably was servers this time because I know skelly archers weren’t as bad last playtest

[tulip venture]

i hate how they keep shooting if you go around a corner or invisible tho

[sour pendant]

Same thing with mages tbh, it feels weird to be cheesing them every time

[tulip venture]

yeah i kinda wish thier fire orb was a perk wizards could take to use like an oil lantern

[sour pendant]

Nah I mean how they just continuously shoot the wall until they kill themselves

[next flare]

And with the class specific loot I feel like certain maps when the game comes out should have certain loot pools to encourage a play style for said map to increase difficulty like for example put higher chance for good plate armor to spawn on ruins so it dis encourages people from ratting with rouge

[sour pendant]

That's just really odd, it helps make them easier to deal with but just feels weird to cheese them that way to me

[next flare]

Ya skeleton mages shouldn’t have fireball they should have zap in my opinion so it makes it so you can’t cheese but also allows slow melee charecters to kill them

[gaunt cargo]

This is a tough one because certain classes like rogue, cleric and wizard have builds that can use almost any stat, so you can't show too much preference to one type without telling people how to play

[tulip venture]

but shadow hoods shouldnt have spell capacity

[sour pendant]

But equally classes like fighter and ranger can't really use magic damage, spell capacity etc

[tulip hill]

I think it would be interesting if they had a couple different attacks
they already have the shield as an alternate spell, why not other things

[gaunt cargo]

Not yet, at least.

[sour pendant]

Mages should cast slower, have zap as an alternative (not get rid of fireball just have both) and not be able to cast while bubble is active imo, as well as just having smarter ai that doesn't fireball itself against a wall

[tulip venture]

shhhhh youre gonna get us all clapped by chain lightning

[next flare]

Ya because it sucks when the spam fireball if they increase the attack pool with other attacks it increases the chance for players to punish

[sour pendant]

Mobs should need direct los to start an attack, would solve archer shooting at wall repeatedly and partially the fireball wall thing though you'd still be able to cheese it by jiggle peeking I imagine

[tulip hill]

I play solo half the time, I see no problem with this

[gilded ether]

I hope class skills are going to fill the issue about useless stats on some items. I can imagine magic oriented warriors or melee wizards, poor choices maybe but i like characters diversity

[sour pendant]

Also don't know if you guys have experienced death bat being like under the floor or something and their attack phases them around an object and hits you, stuff like that shouldn't happen. In general more advanced mob AI would be nice

Instead, they should reset themselves knowing they can't see you or start pathing to a different position in order to gain los first

[next flare]

I hope warlock is a mage that is melee like a mage that can add status effects to their blade

[tulip venture]

that just sounds like a no class all skilltree/stat allocation game tbh

[gaunt cargo]

? Wizard already does this

[tulip hill]

Ignite is a pretty powerful spell if you are looking for a melee mage

[next flare]

Ya but I mean one that is entirely that ignite is good but not enough to build around in my opinion

[tulip venture]

i want it to be debuff focused like curses and damage over time

[next flare]

Debuff would be cool but I feel like that’s what hard will lean into

[tulip venture]

im gonna alldrich beam so many people

[sour pendant]

I mean you're just asking for a pocket cleric at that point then for your fighter. Also self ignite invis wizard with crystal ball rondel was pretty viable

[next flare]

Yea but that’s stealth mage I want a brawler mage but I guess that’s what cleric is

[sour pendant]

I mean brawler mage sounds nice as opposed to this squishy mobile wizard, but I'd rather keep it spell focused personally

[tulip hill]

I honestly hope they don't give warlock spell memory and instead have their two abilities act as their spells
just some real nice impactful cooldowns that are more magical in nature
kinda like smite and judgment of cleric but with a bunch of different things to choose from

[next flare]

Warlock would also be cool if it was summon based but that’s kinda hard to balance

[sour pendant]

I like this idea actually

[tulip venture]

leach life would be my favorite

[next flare]

I’m feel like the game should aim to get every class to the point of rouge where there is at least three play styles in each class most classes already have around two play styles but adding a couple more options would be dope like adding skills that focus around trapping for ranger or a glass cannon playstyle for barbs

[tulip hill]

I definitely like what they've done with rogue, even if its a bit wacky on the ruins
different specializations would be great for everyone tbh

[heavy hollow]

A bit weird only fighter can use Halberds

[next flare]

Yea but hopefully instead of nerfing rouges on ruins they add maps that play into other classes

[heavy hollow]

and not the two handed class

[next flare]

I kind of agree but fighters two handed weapons are more pokey staby long ranged melee where as barb has close range get in there face two handed

[tulip hill]

Double jump is a little problematic on that map though
I don't think its a problem that rogues have the option to do that, I think it comes down to how little you have to give up for it
I would much rather see double jump or something similar take up one of your two active abilities instead of being a passive
That way the opportunity cost of getting that mobility is more than just giving up lockpicking or dagger expert

[heavy hollow]

They could just add more ways for other classes to get up there

[tulip hill]

very true, like maybe a jump spell or a leap ability

[vivid warren]

make double jump has 3 charges and there is a cool down 6sec for each charge to reset

[next flare]

Or they can add double jump but you take fall damage and a lot so it rewards skill and thinking out pathing and punishes brain dead double jumping around

[tulip hill]

that is an option, makes it so rogues can't assassin creed you from the top of the wall as easily (though as it is now you can walk off the ledge and use your double jump right before hitting the ground)

[sour pendant]

Horrible bandaid fix I think

You shouldn't be able to climb to the top of the walls or the roofs of buildings

[next flare]

Or they can make it so you get stunned for 1.5sec after double jumping and it makes a loud noise que when u hit the ground after double jumping so people playing other classes can get ready to fight and for people who want to be stealthy make it so invis and the quiet footsteps negate those affects

[sour pendant]

There are some exceptions but as it was this playtest ruins felt unplayable after everyone figured out how busted doublejump was and every ruins game you'd go into 2-3x 3man groups of naked rogue with stiletto jumping off walls to instagib you the moment you open a door, loot a chest, etc etc

Stunned bad too I think, that just doesn't make sense and would make utilising double jump normally feel awkward no? I think double jump should have been an active ability, though one that doesn't require pressing the q/e input and just puts itself on cooldown on use, or maybe has charges to it that slowly regen. Also putting barriers over all the parkour spots that are simply too high and lead to the roofs/tops of walls and pillars

[clear bluff]

I'd rather they just make a slight change to the map design of ruins. make some invisible walls so you cant just parkour all over everything, but still allow for a few cool jumps

[tulip hill]

There is already a bit of a slow when landing but I could see them making it scale with the distance you fell

[sour pendant]

Or maybe removing an active ability slot for it would be too big a downside, maybe just giving it a cooldown inherently in your buff bar

[sour pendant]

Yeah this would be good too, while not enough to solve stuff completely definitely something that would be welcomed

[tulip hill]

Oh as someone who used it extensively I very much think double jump is worth giving up an active slot

[pastel smelt]

They should add weapon feinting to the game, I feel it would make the combat more valuable

[sour pendant]

No. Please no more mordhau beggers

[gaunt cargo]

No one wants mordhau

[pastel smelt]

Hehehe

[tulip hill]

I give a hard no to the idea of invisible walls, though going back and stacking up some of the walls a little more to make each area more secluded would be good

[sour pendant]

I think they should find a way to add slightly more depth to the combat than my gear is better than yours and I left click harder than you

But the solution to that is not a feinting system, would be really difficult for them to come up with something though I'm sure

[gaunt cargo]

Which class do you main?

[sour pendant]

Played all of them this playtest, primarily wizard fighter

[tulip hill]

funnily enough Rogue's tumble ability lets you interrupt your swing, though thats not very useful for them

[gaunt cargo]

Fighter and barb melee is relatively unskilled once you understand the timing. Try rogue and you might find it more fun

[sour pendant]

I... Just said all of them

[gaunt cargo]

Sure, but if you're playing all of them, then you don't have a deep understanding of any of them.

[next flare]

Yea they can add limb breaks so if u know ur opponent is using a weapon that has a move set with a lot a right swings you could try to break their right arm to slow their attack or stop it

[sour pendant]

There is no deep understanding to obtain

[gilded ether]

I could use a DaD wallpaper...

[tulip hill]

No.

[gaunt cargo]

So you're telling me you could 1v1 a top tier rogue player in equal gear?

[next flare]

Not breaks but stuns breaks is the wrong word

[sour pendant]

You're deeping a game where half of combat is left clicking and aiming head level. Like I'm not talking about from my perspective at all times, but let say I'm on my wizard Vs a fighter. The fighter has no play to make other than sprint at me if he has it, and left click repeatedly until my missiles have 3tapped him

[tulip hill]

I feel like the slow that damage applies is plenty in that department, no need to make it more complex

[sour pendant]

Obviously I'm dumbing it down a lot to exaggerate my point, but I felt otherwise I can't tell you what I'm trying to say. By no means are classes like rogue wizard as simple as barb fighter, but the interactions between some classes feel lackluster

When I'm on my geared rogue against geared fighter or barb there's never a challenge unless I'm stuck in a corner

[next flare]

Yea but I don’t really like full body slow it’s dumm like why would a dagger in your arm make you walk slower

[gaunt cargo]

That's because fighter is slow and simple. It's basically the starter class.
Adding movement and utility like rogue and wiz significantly increases the skill cap, which is why I suggest you play them more if that's what you want. They need to keep some of the classes simple to keep the game accessible.

[sour pendant]

Like it doesn't feel like a skill check for my to press q and be impossible for a barb to hit due to my movespeed and range advantage

[tulip hill]

I feel that longsword gives fighter a good amount of skill expression with its block and riposte mechanic

[sour pendant]

Again you're missing my point. What I play doesn't matter. I stated I played all of them to try them out. It's a playtest I'm not jerking off to the class design of one specific class

You're basically saying right now that barb n fighter are beginner classes so everyone should stop playing them the moment they get to grips with the game for better combat

[gaunt cargo]

I'm saying people who are looking for depth in order to have fun should look to the classes that offer that. Your complaint was about combat depth.

[sour pendant]

Which I guess is partially true for PvP, it is undeniably better. Which is why I like the idea of making the class interactions more interesting in some regards. Again, very difficult to do for the devs. No idea how they would manage to do it.

[sour pendant]

Combat depth between classes.

[tulip hill]

Hey hey, things are getting a little spicy here and people are starting to use fallacies, how about we change the subject for now

What are your guy's thoughts on a parry dagger? A secondary that is used for blocking but that also has a riposte mechanic

[left grail]

I suggest a new merchant that stocks treats and snacks for Otto to use in the pregame lobby.

Pros:
Otto content.
unique animations and cute sound effects for everyone.
acts as a gold sink to help reduce long-term inflation in an economy with infinite gold generation as a primary game mechanic and few sinks.
flexing bank on the lobby with 1k+ gold treats with stupendous effects.

Cons:
literally none

[sour pendant]

It feels like rock paper scissors sometimes as opposed to interesting gameplay. I'm not saying from my perspective as a barb it's boring I'm saying that if I play wizard or rogue VERSUS a barb it is

[tulip hill]

this is a good mechanic

[gilded ether]

Main gauche

[gaunt cargo]

Shifting goalposts.

[sour pendant]

My original point was literally that some classes are just forced to left click and pray in some situations and matchups what do you mean

[next flare]

But all the classes are all hard in their respective areas combat isn’t just click head barbs has slow movements so you have to wait for big openings or catch opponent by suprise fighters have shields that they can block with and also have really good weapons that you can poke around cover archers are obvious why they require skill mages have long casts and are slowed while casting so you have to get space and some casts get canceled while moving rouges die in two hits so you have to know how to move and clerics need to mix the ideas from fighters mages and barbs so combat isn’t just click head and I’ve killed plenty of geared fighters while playing a fresh cleric

[sour pendant]

So a barb has counterplay to me casting slow into magic missiles? Or a fighter for that matter?

[tulip hill]

and then bard goes 🪕🎶

[next flare]

For now hopefully

[sour pendant]

won't continue this anymore, I get your point and I hope you see mine somewhat. I enjoyed every class this playtest and PvP was enjoyable on all of them, just saying that some class matchups feel as if they're missing depth or counterplay. The left click thing was just exaggeration ^^

[next flare]

Fighter crouch blocks and bard no cause it’s unfinished as shit

[tulip hill]

Do keep in mind I do believe the devs have gone on record saying they are not focused on making each classed balanced against each other at this time and they are more concerned with getting core mechanics in place before trying to fine tune them

[gilded ether]

Can someone post some feelings about double jumping? Been a while now

[sour pendant]

Crouch block doesn't block feet hitbox iirc, and most fighters don't bring shield

[sour pendant]

Ye of course, that's why I'm saying it would be nice to see said changes in the future. Just noticing the gap in that part of the game

[tulip hill]

for sure
here's hoping Fighter and Barbarian don't get left behind when it comes to interesting gameplay options

[heavy hollow]

I think either let everyone up there or nobody

[next flare]

Yea but fighters can also rush to cover since you have two long as casts but yea I get your point no character is balanced fully and I hope they aren’t since it’s still a playtest

[inner jasper]

We need to not lose our recoverable HP when cancelling Rest

[sour pendant]

Wizard casts are not long brother

Not with gear anyway, and with slow applied good luck reaching a reasonable cover that the wizard can't just instantly wide swing for an angle

[next flare]

Two casts is at least 15 secs

[tulip hill]

oh dear, you haven't seen a wizard with good gear

[sour pendant]

What hahaha slow charges in like .5s and missiles 1s or so

Fireball also is like 1s with gear, or slightly over maybe 1.5

I know you're exaggerating but just saying they're way faster than people realise

[tulip hill]

I think having recoverable HP in the first place is very generous
I understand the want to keep it but I'm not sure it would be a good idea to be able to hold onto it forever

[next flare]

I guess with good gear yea but again when the game fully comes out it’s gonna siphon certain gear tiers into different maps unless you want to be a no life nerd who wants to dunk on freeshies with your purple gear

[inner jasper]

Generous? You seen how long it takes to recover HP through resting? xD

[sour pendant]

We're talking gear v gear tho

Like a fighter or barb having gear won't suddenly make them ignore the slow or not die to 1 missiles

[inner jasper]

Literally only new characters use Rest to recover HP

[sour pendant]

Barb should ignore slows on activation of his shout I think

[tulip hill]

it is more HP regen than none at all

[next flare]

Yea then gear v gear there is a way to counter high end gear fighters bring pavises and low ends have a chance of running to cover and again if your a fighter not playing around cover your not playing into your strengths

[sour pendant]

Also as zest was saying I like the current regen system, means you have to commit time to getting it back for free without wasting consumables, and can't get value out of that time otherwise

[sour pendant]

You can't just be telling every fighter they need to run pavise though, and can barb even use pavise?

[ebon idol]

They can't.

[sour pendant]

Also again, even on a corner unless you're in a narrow corridor room the wizard will just wide swing you while you're slowed and you will die before walking 1m towards them

Again, as zest said the game is unfinished and they didn't bother sorting balance for now. It's pointless to argue about this because we know how oppressive some situations are. No point pretending you can be a god gamer and ignore the way game works through the power of your gaming chair. This is the suggestion discussion channel, just pointing out a lack of depth that I suggested they could improve on

[inner jasper]

Weak explaination for it. Its generous and having to commit for a slow long rest that only punishes newbie players/characters is a weak argument

[ebon idol]

Hm. I used rest a lot as a non new player. It is pretty good to get back spells as cleric.

[sour pendant]

It doesn't only punish newbies, every player that commits to resting is at risk of mobs they didn't properly clear, players pulling up, or bad positioning and timing of zone

[next flare]

Than wizard wins your kind of proving my point of each class has strengths and weaknesses wizards are good in places with less cover and fighters and barbs thrive in those but yea I agree the game is gonna be balanced more and more and it’ll make the combat hopefully as smooth as a baby’s bottom

[sour pendant]

Like it's more common a new playerwill make those mistakes sure but that's a mistake on their end, the resting is an alternative to consumables for when you are absolutely sure you don't need them

[pearl rover]

A new bard ability has been leaked "Gas-Powered Leap where the bard emits a controlled burst of gas that propels them higher into the air, allowing them to perform a double jump or reach higher ledges. This ability could have a short cooldown and could be useful for navigating through difficult terrain or avoiding enemy attacks."

[next flare]

Fart joke

[inner jasper]

It does only punish noobs because only noobs use Rest to heal HP. Everyone elses uses consumables because they can afford them, or their cleric.

[grizzled falcon]

I literally only rest for health as a last resort unless I have a campfire

[fast maple]

i think this is a good idea

[tulip hill]

you say that but I got the drop on a fully geared rogue when he stopped to use a campfire
killed him and took his his full set of mostly purples

[grizzled falcon]

A campfire will fully heal you in like 10 seconds. Normal resting will, at best, heal you in well over a minute

Also when I normal rest I try to do it in a dark corner where I won't be seen just in case. It's literally a desperation thing

[tulip hill]

well that's the thing about normal resting, its most useful for healing chip damage
I don't expect to heal half my health with it

[grizzled falcon]

With the new rest mechanic it isn't worth using to heal chip damage either because if you get up without healing all your "rest regen" then you lose what you dont use

[inner jasper]

Its already nerfed for only recovering up to a certain amount. No need to delete all the HP you would have gotten for needing to cancelling what you could have recovered.

Thats just annoying and only punishes newbie players/characters

[tulip hill]

well how would guys feel if 100% of damage was recoverable but slowly drained?

[inner jasper]

Thats not the suggestion

[tulip hill]

That's my suggestion, at least to the issue of losing the rest of your recoverable HP when standing up
that way you can rest in small bursts but the more time you spend not resting the less you'll get overall

[inner jasper]

What's the point of that?

[tulip hill]

because with a system like that you could reasonably buff the rate of healing as players wouldn't be able to bank it for the whole dungeon only to recover half their health in the middle of the endgame scramble

[half cobalt]

Game has real problems but people think rest is op? Omega lul

[grizzled falcon]

I think rest is perfectly fine rn tbh

[steady furnace]

You should make a mode last team alive BR like, everyone starts with the same basic equipement.
Last team surviving (in the circle) win an interesting prize. This mode can be a ranked mode for tryharders.
The aim of this mode is to prove you are the best without being overstuffed, and you can win even you have low stuff on your main.

[ebon idol]

Oh no, people talking about things that you don't prioritise, how can we. We monsters.

[half cobalt]

💯

[tulip hill]

I'm already not a huge fan of the BR style ring and wish they would do something a tad more immersive, like if the swarm respected walls and filled the dungeon room by room
borrowing even more from BRs would be a no from me

[echo crystal]

It should put a buff when you play with two players they enter the dungeons with 3 even if it is minimal

[ruby breach]

no if you go in as to, you can win if you play smart

[fossil mulch]

bard should have access to throwing knives & recurves discuss

[grizzled falcon]

throwing knives yes, I think crossbows are fine though

[distant night]

the ring puts the player into interesting situations, it seems like a pretty core mechanic
Would be interesting to see darkness spread from room to room instead, like a certain discarded very similar game

[grizzled falcon]

I think bard was also probably hurt this playtest by not having access to lutes with stats. I also agree the current swarm ring is fine

[sturdy ice]

I dont think lutes with stats would fix how useless they feel lol

[somber wind]

* Increase stat variance in Armor as the currently isn't any for Bard specific gear (all items are literally the same).
* War Song's duration is now affected by how well you played the song.
* Jokester is now available.
* Lutes can drop.

[Perks]
* Wandering Minstrel; No movement speed reduction while playing songs.
* Skald; Don't need an instrument to play music. -33% Song Duration.
* Flamboyancy; +15% Movement Speed while Jumping with an Instrument equipped.

[Skills]
* Double Time; Next time you play a Song the minigame is twice as fast. 15 second cooldown.
* Hideous Laughter; Causes targeted enemy to laugh histerically lowering their movement speed by 50% for 3 seconds. 40 second cooldown.

[Songs]
* Heroic Ballad; In an AoE allies become Immune to damage reducing debuffs and gain 25 Temporary HP (They gain 25 HP even if it goes over max and then they lose 1 HP per second for 25 seconds) for 25 seconds. Amount of Temporary HP (and duration to match the HP) scales with Will.
* Clairvoyance; In an AoE highlights Chests, Pots, Levers, Portals and Traps for you and allies. Duration and Magnitude is affected by how well you play.
* <Unnamed>; In an AoE lowers action speed by 45/60/75%. Duration and Magnitude is affected by how well you play.
* <Unnamed>; In an AoE lowers movement speed by 15/30/45% except for you and increases your movement speed by 4/6/8%. Duration and Magnitude is affected by how well you play.
* <Unnamed>; Deals magic damage every second of the song in a Spherical AoE as long as the other player can hear the song in that AoE. Damage falls off the further out in the AoE the enemy is. Base Damage is affected by how well you play.
* Tremors; In an AoE lowers enemies movement speed by 8% for 4/6/8 seconds and fears them for 6/8/10 seconds. Duration and Magnitude is affected by how well you play.
* Stalwart; In an AoE increases allies damage reduction by 10/15/20% for 5/6/8 seconds. Duration and Magnitude is affected by how well you play.
* Mage Hand; Interact with an object you can see (Pulling Levers, Opening Chests, Opening Doors).
* Dimension Door; Conjure a Portal that can send a player that walks into it somewhere near the center of the Zone. Song should cost quite alot of points similar to Resurrection for Cleric.

[Weapons]
(To keep in mind the Lute is -10 Movement Speed, 15 Damage, -17% Slowdown on Hit.)
* Flute; Smaller AoE, Quieter, -5 Movement Speed, 5 Damage, 0% Slowdown on Hit, Dagger Swing Speed.
* Hurdy-Gurdy; 1/4th notes to hit in Minigame, Longer Minigame (So longer startup), Larger AoE, Louder, -20 Movement Speed, -20% Slowdown on Hit, Much Slower Swing Speed.
* Vielle (Medieval Violin); Quicker Minigame (So faster startup but harder Minigame), -10 Movement Speed, 12 Damage, -15% Slowdown on Hit, Faster Swing Speed.
* Bagpipe; Significantly Larger AoE, Double notes to hit in Minigame, Significantly Louder, -15 Movement Speed, 9 Damage, -20% Slowdown on Hit.
* Psaltery; 50% more notes to hit, +2-3 seconds to Duration of Songs effects after Song is finished (The song rings out at the end)(Duration bonus rolled), -25 Movement Speed, 15 Damage, Slower Swing Speed.
* Lyre; Smaller AoE, Much Quieter, Can be played while resting, 25% More Notes if not Resting, -5 Movement Speed, 12 Damage, -15% Slowdown on Hit, Faster Swing Speed.```

Thoughts on how Bard could be fixed. I iterated upon it since last time.

[sturdy ice]

"fears them for 6/8/10 seconds." lol

[somber wind]

Mostly just giving them an alternative to savage roar since it fits the class fantasy.

[distant night]

they clearly havent finished that class 🙃

[somber wind]

Yup. It just barely squeaked out into the playtest.

[sturdy ice]

p3 didnt have a bard designed so they didnt have ideas to grab from

[somber wind]

Bard genuinely felt great just underpowered. Favorite class, just needs to get some more content.

Previous test I was a Wizard and a Fighter. This test I was Bard and Cleric (I also played a bit of Ranger to see the difference since I played a little in the previous test too but not much).

[edgy hound]

opinion on ranger, i think ranger is a balanced class. only 2 minor problems i found with ranger is they need to sacrifice space for arrows, which annyoing for money runs and loot runs. second issue is that the shotgun perk has to much spread, as if rn the 5 arrow perk does not as a close shotgun as its horizantal spread is too much for it to hit most of its shots, some ways to fix this is by either decrease the raduis of the spread in that it could have the potential to hit all 5 shots on target, another fix is to make it vertically making it much harder to hit the shot but with a greater reward

[grizzled falcon]

Totally agree but I think it's kind of weird to launch a new character and have their main piece of gear be a grey with no stats

[cosmic shard]

i think devs could add quiver specifically for back slot of a ranger that holds x amount of arrows so you dont have to waste space. on the other hand having ranged weapon when everyone else using melee is a privilege so keeping arrows in your backpack is a kind of a tradeoff

[sturdy ice]

I remember hearing the developers played everquest, so I was hoping it would be more like everquest bard, that you're all speedy zooming around, can twist(alternate songs while keeping the buffs of like 4 different songs up), play songs without needing an instrument so you can still attack (singing) but instruments increase the effect of songs (speed boost) etc

[lost talon]

I have used the Cleric for the past 2 playtest it have been my main class very fun for a supporting class and does ok dmg but the weapons tht cleric have access to are not tht good comparing it to the others, The mace/morning star has a long swing for a little weapon very easy to block almost every time the first swing is a overhead and easy to see so you cant even swing more than once to get the last swing which is still a overhead but slightly on an angle. The Staff is nice and fast but you can bearly block with it do to one hand being raised in guard mode and the players being right handed so you almost always have to crouch to get the block unless overhand and the war maul has no defense so if and when u get hit there is nothing u can do besides backup but is very strong. Comparing these weapons u will most likely losses even with short sword or axe because swing speed with all of the being said i think a flail would be great for the cleric it can be a bit slower than staff but faster than mace/Morningstar with a bit of range it can be a one or two handed long flail or short one to use it with shield the dmg should go past staff it should just be a chained mace alsothanks for the great experience @flat cobalt

[bright frigate]

I agree with @lost talon . Generally speaking they should move away from "Fighter and Barbarian can roll over anyone in a melee fight" and make other weapons decent. Especially clerics weapons are pretty trash, a mace is supposed to knock out armoured foes, how does it come that is twice slower than the arming sword but it does 3 damage more than the arming sword? The damage of ANY weapon should be proportioned to its speed and balancing wise all the weapons should be "equal"

[dense sand]

Because you aren't factoring in swing pattern of the weapon as part of the balance, flanged mace has one of the easiest swing patterns to score a head shot with

[bright frigate]

I would say the opposite. With a vertical strike is harder to hit the head as the head's top is smaller then the side AND if you miss you hit a shoulder that only God knows if it is counted as torso or a limb (which would deal the least damage possible)

Plus because the attacks are vertical and EXTREMELY SLOW it is also extremely easy to dodge them

[dense sand]

Vertical attacks are much better than horizontal

[bright frigate]

You never played Chivalry 2 I see

[lost talon]

yes the headshot is easy to aim but the swing is slow for small weapon and always an overhead so u know what to is going happen its an easy block i dont think every weapon should be strong just something with not as much draw backs

[lost talon]

its just good to have mixups vertical is nice but easy to see

plus the mace has no range so if u get blocked its a counter

[dense sand]

The issue is the chance for interruption of damage due to terrain, objects etc, it's very easy to bait out attacks as a cleric since we are target number one very often

[bright frigate]

true as well

Plus at least according to the dummies in this Playtest, if you aim at the chest EVE IF you end up hitting the head in the way it still counts as a chest strike

[lost talon]

i agree with most of what your saying but the issue is range and mace just isnt that good to trynna bait and cleric is not tanky enough to bait a sprinting fighter or spear ranger the flail would be a more damaging weapon just a little bit longer

[bright frigate]

True

[lost talon]

thanks alot for the support and feedback gang 👍 @dense sand you too 👍

[calm dove]

I have been thinking about how to balance double jump. I Have boiled it down with two changes. First off rogues were getting on top of all kinds of walls and I think some of those spots should be blocked. Second, I know double jump is fun. People are going to want it to stay. It needs some counter play and I think a CD on a passive would feel strange/clunky. So how about this, If you jump and take damage the second jump is void. Like if you think it could work, Just curious about numbers.

[bright frigate]

I did a 1v1 with a fighter, I did manage to land 2 strikes he was at 50% HP, he did two swings with his arming sword BOOM I was on the floor

[lost talon]

fr tho

[bright frigate]

Like a fall damage? Sounds fair

[lost talon]

the game has no fall dmg

[calm dove]

Yeah could think of it like that. The reward for not getting touched is you get to double jump lol

[lost talon]

i say a colldown like 1.5secs

but i have 1v1 a ranger with spear so many times i get lots of blocks but cant close the range the cleric is so slow its actual bad

[bright frigate]

If you thinks of it though I did hit him with a mace, I am not say I should have 1 shot him but how does it comes that a mace does almost the same damage of an arming sword? A good damage for a mace would be 30 and remember that the falchion does 34 and is still quicker

[calm dove]

That's like right after 1 auto you could repeat a double jump. I don't think it would be that impactful.

[lost talon]

yea most mace do 38

[lost talon]

with a 1.5 or 2sec CD every other jump can be a double instead of every jump

[bright frigate]

I think you are wrong the morning star does 28

[lost talon]

yea I think Morningstar is a pen/blunt weapon mace is blunt

[bright frigate]

Have a look in here, Arming sword is 22 , mace is 26 (4 damage more?! That's quite outrageous) and morning does 28 https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Weapons#Maces

If we keep in consideration the lowest tier and the first attack the mace is 30% slower than an arming sword, therefore to be a fair match a mace should deal at least 28

[lost talon]

i agree plus another problem is the movement speed of cleric compared to other ones i am not saying the cleric should be op or anything i just thinks its a little unfair the faster weapons make it to i dnt have and opening

there been moments where its like like if i drop my shield i died to this so i backup but the mace to slow they do more than close the gap i swing the mace and Morningstar is to slow i get hit even tho they just hit my shield

[real trellis]

Please remove arrows and bolts from chest loot pools as they are literally worthless to half the classes in the game and can't even be sold or stashed. Make them a guaranteed drop from breakable pots or stick some grabbable arrows and bolts in various walls in the rooms of the dungeons.

[ruby breach]

how about give ranger a separate quiver slot for arrows that can hold 50 arrows

[real trellis]

We've been talking in #game-discussion and the current popular idea is having the quiver be a cloak-slot item that's ranger exclusive

[storm tinsel]

yeah i can see that

diff quality ones hold more arrows?

[real trellis]

I think different quality would just have better stats, like a cloak, idk about holding more arrows.

[storm tinsel]

okie

[static badger]

Just saying many cool games such as Duke Nukem 3D, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic and Bulletstorm had a kick mechanic. Imagine kicking those clerics off the ledge into a pit of goblins.

[real trellis]

It would be hilarious but unbalanced

[static badger]

Straight into the abs being pulled back like in the matrix with the ropes, gasping for air. Suffer

[real trellis]

Shield bash should have a knockback like that

Imagine fighting some dude and you slap him with your shield and send him into a spike trap. That'd make it worth using.

[static badger]

Whatever works and makes the game more brutal. Love that they had an open voip where people talked shit before murdering them.

[grizzled falcon]

DMoMM is the king of kicking

[static badger]

https://youtu.be/s3SjAABpn5U&t=4m15s

[rare agate]

fighter's 2nd wind needs nerfed, Cleric Judgement Needs Nerfed, Rouges Doublejump Needs nerfed, barb being able to do 180+ dmg Needs nerfed , If you nerfed one of these but not the other # unbalanced

[real trellis]

If you lower barb damage you need to bring their walk speed back up because they're so damn slow right now they can't kill anyone who isn't actively W-keying into their face

[rare agate]

and BARD. needs to acutally heal . instead of " rested healing"

[rare agate]

i would like to see more buffs The lower The health of a barb . the faster he gos would be nice as a perk

[real trellis]

Adding move speed to Berserk would make it crazy, it'd have to be its own skill or it'd be a must-pick lol

[rare agate]

not if its limited time

[real trellis]

Actually, if barbarians got faster briefly instead of slower upon taking damage I think that'd be really thematically cool and a good buff

[rare agate]

There needs to be a frenzy barb. cause Right now Fighters , have more Frenzy style gameplay , Kinda werid af

[real trellis]

Though it would make it harder for Rangers to stop them and rangers are supposed to be a hard counter

[rare agate]

Fighter is just a much better barb if you want a faster " frenzi style gameplay" 2nd wind is legit broken af , and u get sprint

[reef spindle]

Rogue ambush should only work if you are invisible for at least 3-5s but the bonus dmg is working for full duration (3s) and not just first attack

[proven flare]

Barb is tank, fighter dps. No more to say

[rare agate]

Stacking Hhp on a barb . and with his 25% hp buff they all stack so yes i agree barb stacking health tank is OP !!! for " tanking" cause everyone has % armor reudction now

[real trellis]

Fighter can hit 75% damage reduction easily and can hit 95% with extreme gear. Barb can... have 200 health? Fighter's better at tanking except when it comes to magic damage lol.

[rare agate]

most classes have % phy reudction now so the Reudction isnt that crazy . but 2nd wind. and sprint does make a fighter op , % hp stacking is more effective for a barb , Well at least in pvp

[real trellis]

A fighter with 75% dr and 100 health can take more hits than a barbarian with ~15% dr and 250 health

[forest cove]

arena purely for pvp, if it hasn't been suggested

[rare agate]

okay lets say a barb , with 250 hp with 15% dr . with reckless reduces armor by 75% . And a barb hits 210 dmg. = one shot Fighter even with 95%

[real trellis]

Reckless reduces your armor. Not theirs.

It said so in the last PT, the tooltip got screwed up this time around lol. If you want armor pen on barb there is a separate skill for that now.

[rare agate]

Reckless Attack Skill in Dark and Darker
Reckless Attack
Class: Barbarian

The next hit ignores 75% of your enemy's defense. Your aggressiveness results in a -55 armor rating. The buff is consumed when an attack hits an object or a target.

[real trellis]

oh sorry I thought you were talking about that second part lol. Yeah that's true.

You better hope you get that headshot though, cause you're not gonna live long enough for a second use of reckless if you body/limb shot or god forbid get blocked

[rare agate]

u will if u engage with blue potion and have a pocket shield stack from cleric . Only engage when reckless is on

Throwing axe if He cast Sprint. to slow him down so ur able to back off

Fighter, And barb, Cleric as of right now Are the meta in the game, The other classes Don't even compare

[real trellis]

in terms of pvp maybe

for high roller ranger/wizard are still in huge demand

[rare agate]

Rouge , sure has double jump and Will kill anyone " lacking" from above ground in ruins. but its a easy counter. Just stick together. and a rouge legit cant do shit

[reef spindle]

reckless is multiplying enemy reduction by 0,25

so fighter with 95% reduction would have 23,75% reduction

[rare agate]

yes , he would have 23.75% reudction afther reckless that would rduce 42.75 . meaning the barb would still hit u for around 138 dmg

the fighter would need god gear to live. HP and Phy % reudction. i've only seen fighters with % phy reduction when they stack it

a fighter's Default health is 100

and yes a barb likes to kill heavy slow fighters in full heavy plate who cant move that well. hell they should even Slower full plate wearers .

[real trellis]

full plate is slow enough

[tribal patio]

Clerics have been so powerful for so long now

[rare agate]

Just make Judgement holy dmg where it hurts undead.or heals an ally instead probelm sloved

[tribal patio]

Most part yes

I was thinking give it a charge like second wind does, and removing spell scale damage on it since it does near to 49 despite it saying it does 35

Also blocks/parrys should be worked so that if you face hug a shield to force your weapons starting animation in your model it wont finish the attack (aka rogues or fists are basically unblockable)

If you equip the shield bash feat for Fighters, it would be cool if you could activate it on a block like a riposte without lowering your guard

[rare agate]

i legit never block or parry . half the time it bugs out and Dsyncs and shit gos right thru the shield

Probly why i sticked with rouge or barb the most , cause holy shit blocking was a hit or miss

[distant night]

look up and crouch, makes it alot more consistent

[tribal patio]

It was a science to it, it was pretty consistent if you did it right, especially with the longsword

Its why I play Fighter, its more than just drinking a bubble getting pocket cleric'd and running in headstrong and just absolutely crushing someone

[distant night]

uhh thats like every top player though

[placid brook]

My suggestion new npc Banker , who can take coins to transfer to your account balance: its give free space in backpack, but not delete coins in match, coz players need to have chance earn it or lose it. I see a problem where 3-man active party have no slots with one week test, but what we do in future where we have season with 1 month? 3 month?

[gilded ether]

Gear fear... you'll get over it after couple of days/weeks

[tawny python]

they are fast with 1 handed weapon

[meager trench]

Rework the trade UI from scrolling postings to a static table. Listings will be removed when the item is sold / the seller leaves the channel / or the listing is removed buy seller. I made a mockup of what I imagine it would look like (I'm not a UI designer plz no hate) https://imgur.com/a/AdRCpPK. I guess the suggestion bot doesn't work anymore.

[real trellis]

The fastest 1h weapon they have access to still slows by 20, rogues can still outspeed that

Plus the viking sword just isn't great on a barb due to not qualifying for axe spec

[vivid warren]

#d-and-d-suggestions message damn if this is real devs must know

[tribal patio]

Well yeah a rogue should be the fastest thats kind of his deal.

[real trellis]

That's fine but a problem arises when they're so fast that you literally can't touch them as a barbarian unless you go fists only

Though I think a 1h weapon barb could probably manage to catch up to a backpedaling rogue

[tribal patio]

1h barb could for sure, and if theyre kiting you try using a long reaching weapon

[gilded ether]

I hope we'll get a communication about the playtest results developpers-side , with some stats

[tribal patio]

They got alot to handle right now

[shrewd lagoon]

We will, after they compile it all and organize it into some nifty charts, they’ll give it to us

[dense sand]

Not if its the meta naked rogue

[real trellis]

If it's a naked rogue a single throwing axe headshot will knock half their health off, Though hitting those is tough

[round cave]

Judgement is fine if you remove its cast speed scaling with knowledge

[real trellis]

Yeah I got obliterated by a spell speed maxxed cleric once

Dude prayed faster than Chairman Netero from HxH

[obsidian spade]

What does everyone think about how to buff bard?

[next pebble]

lol i didnt know it scaled with knowledge. that is a bit strong

[last onyx]

what if we we could add friends in the game and see what they are doing. Like if they are in the lobby or in the game and maybe spectate them? good or bad ide?

[unique adder]

so you want a twitch lookalike as a feature of the game? should they have an email server too? how about skype?

[gloomy cradle]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[olive night]

He just means a spectate button like in league of legends

[silk badger]

I'm currently in the middle of cleaning up an old Skype 4 Business cluster. This is not funny.

[unique adder]

there are existing 3rd party applications that do this better, instead of developing the ability to do it in game

[olive night]

Lol what? How is a third party supposed to access the server in order to accomplish this? They would need permission from Ironmace. And if you’re talking about something like Twitch, that’s just simply not what he’s talking about. Twitch is a streaming platform. Spectating is not streaming

[unique adder]

watching a streaming platform, is spectating

[olive night]

I’m just gonna stop responding if you can’t understand this idea by now

[unique adder]

I understand the idea. I think it is dumb. Think of the server space taken up, by hosting spectating within the game, as opposed to making the person who wants to be spectated use their PC's bandwidth to do it.

[olive night]

The server is already hosted with spectating enabled though. When you die you can spectate players. The only additional cost would be to serve to more than 18 clients (max allowed in a dungeon). And it doesn’t use the players bandwidth since it’s all being served from the server. And spectating is very lightweight because all you have to do is give the spectator access to already existing game objects (such as the camera)

[unique adder]

but they could spend the development time, to give rogue TRIPPLE JUMP!

mutually assured destruction. other people will be geared too. two weeks seems harsh

should probably have a sea of thieves like starting map for new players

[worthy rock]

how about purchaseable skins. I'm shotgunning megan thee stallion as a playable character skin. so like u got armor on top of your character skin

[olive night]

If you're using the Megan Thee Stallion skin, I want the Tory Lanez skin

[worthy rock]

ya but tory lanez isnt a big ole freak

[olive night]

I just wanna zap you in the foot and recreate history bb

[dense sand]

tory lanez skin would technically make you a dwarf

[minor canyon]

Double jumps should be eliminated.
Anti-glitch debugging of 10000+ locations is needed.
Furthermore, manual adjustments to asset constructs would be required.
This would make production inefficient.

Double jumps/high jumps/long jumps are all unacceptable.

[unique adder]

perhaps, it is your suggestion that is unacceptable. I think there should be a triple jump!

[minor canyon]

LOL

[unique adder]

Ranger should be able to shoot rope arrows, to get to the same high places. like batman!

[minor canyon]

you are Ironmace man

[unique adder]

barbarian should have LONG jump. Fighter should be able to jump left or right, like strafe jump.

[violet girder]

Next class necromancer pls

[ruby linden]

Warlock next

[granite plinth]

Next is for sure ||big chungus||

[tough pasture]

What do you guys think about a Bard Song that uses light manipulations? Aka play song and all torches turn off/on in area.

If it had a large AOE - I think it could be effective for confusing squads

[acoustic hazel]

I was wondering if other people like the idea of dissonance (bard) also negating buff effects/item enchantments for a short time aswell. Give it a higher skill cap and more reward. Because 99% of fights as bard you get bum rushed by melee and kit becomes useless

[quick lantern]

The New map was cool. But it changed the dynamic of the dungeon too much. Perhaps make it larger so there are more players. The mobs here should alsoly be easier ( maybe like skeletons missing a arm that wield a dagger or short sword, no crossbow skeles for sure, maybe change the wisp projectile speed to be slower) I would also make it to where you can immediately go down using the stairs (maybe like wait 3 minutes or something before they open, or make it to where a key let's you go open the door immediately to go down) and have it que you into the second floor dungeon so that way it's a full lobby. So instead of just the people who survived f1 on your server youe qued into a different server for f2.

[regal lotus]

the mobs ARE easier. Significantly. Playing the new map's pve is quite a bit easier once you are used to it.

People just got mad because they died a few times to some shit they hadnt played before and blamed the map and cried

The ballance of timing of stairs and portals was to come with the playtest, as usual.. but people cried so much they didnt really get a chance to

Queuing into a different map is a decent idea but sounds like a significant development effort they might not want to take on at this time

[opaque fulcrum]

a duos only queue would be cool, sometimes not always easy to find a 3 man group

[next hinge]

Goblin cave down portal idea :

• You go down to a gladiator ring with 4 doors
• There's is 3 cercle that gets smaller every minutes.
• Only 1 escape opens up.
• Fight to the death PVP with globlins cheering in the background.
• The last player gets to open a chest and loot this other guys.

[grizzled current]

Make Accelerando and Tranquility sound different. Like 1 note difference atm

[quick lantern]

I'm pretty sure the main reason people didn't like the first map was because when you went down to the next floor there was no competition. (And people complaining about rogue double jump)

[regal lotus]

well that is because it takes time for more ppl to end up in B2, ppl need to get comfortabble w the map and then start heading down more and more, just like the reg map

judging how many ppl are in b2 after 8 hrs of release is kinda silly

[quick lantern]

While I agree. It's also a matter that usually there was only 1 red staircase in the circle so statistically the amount of people going into f2 was always going to be low. If I think back on how many people I've seen in floor 3. The most I've ever seen was 2 other teams but usually it was 1 other team or someone who couldn't find a blue portal and had to take a red

[regal lotus]

I saw more than that in B2 even in the short time it was released.

But yea, sure adding more access to red could be a good solution

People need to let IM do balancing during a playtest and not just cry and scream bc things are different. its disgusting childish behavior. its a playtest

[quick lantern]

Absolutely. This playtest was I felt was very balanced class wise

[grizzled current]

Bard a bit weaker than others but it's just a sample of the beginning I am sure.

[quick lantern]

Of course. It was definitely just pushed out in a rush with everything going on. That being said bard isn't actually that bad. I mean they can use a falchion

[grizzled current]

Yeah but only can spec into rapier. Do love using the Falchion though......no offensive abilities. No 2 handers, makes it full support and lack any punch on it's own.

but it was a good start, just hoping to see more added. Maybe some offensive abilities / perks

Some songs to choose from instead of getting 4/4 would be great too

[quick lantern]

Yes. But not every class is meant to trade blows with every class. Otherwise there would be no point in having a class system. Bard is more of a utility. You let bards loot chests for better loot. You let bards use the song to wittle some pve down. Bards recover your recoverable health. Outside that they should run crossbow and falchion. And that last thing you just typed I'm sure they will add those things

[grizzled current]

I understand what your saying but Cleric can go toe to toe with almost anyone in different ways / builds. I realize Bard is new and unfinished, I like the direction they are going just need some tweaks and more options. Looking forward to see what's new for Bard and really looking forward to Warlock too.

[dapper crescent]

We're not gonna get it as a class, but once they implement the class training stuff we might get it as a subclass for the wizard

[hearty badge]

Bard was a horrendously bad class and there is 0 reason to run a Bard in a composition when Clerics exist.

As someone who invested their entire times worth into Bard this playtest, I can write down a long list of problems with the class, and probably some decent suggestions on how to either fix, or make viable.

[regal lotus]

I think Bard Cleric Wizard coulld be an interesting comp, as youu can cast spells during peacefulness..

You can shut down physical dmg dealers and set up a arcane missle/chainlightning/locust swarm/judgement to their face

You have AOE silence as well for enemy magic users

[hearty badge]

Again, literally 0 point to run a Bard when you can run two Clerics or more.

[regal lotus]

Again, I just described a reason to run it.. Just because you say things doesnt make them true bud.

[hearty badge]

That is not a good reason at all, bud.

[meager jasper]

It would need to be dramatically improved as a song to allow that. It's just too slow, too clunky, the range is an issue, etc.

[regal lotus]

I mean bard cleric can beat double cleric bc of aoe silence

[hearty badge]

Bard is actually a detriment to your team 80% of the time, given that in order to function you literally make yourself vulnerable and give away your position constantly.

[meager jasper]

The silence? You mean the silence that lasts 3 seconds?

[hearty badge]

Silence is a dumb mechanic in the game, it's pointless right now.

[regal lotus]

I mean the silence that didnt even work for 3/4 of the playtest

[meager jasper]

Even ignoring that is Judgement even affected? Judgement is not a spell.

[hearty badge]

Bard in the state it was released in shouldn't have even been a thing when nearly every other class got 4x as many skill and perk options added.

[regal lotus]

I do agree w that, bard was weak and bugged and lacking diversity. Doesnt mean I cant see a pllace for them in a comp in the future

[hearty badge]

Wow, holy shit it just gets worse and worse.

[meager jasper]

I hope so. I want the arcane classes to do well.

[hearty badge]

Bard is fundamentally a dysfunctional class, and will need a complete rework. Part of the strategy half of the time was only correctly playing 60-70% of your notes, and intentionally failing the rest so you can get a spell off quickly.

[regal lotus]

That is fairly easy to rework how playing the spell interacts with its function. If you buff effect duration vs cast time on a perfect cast for one. You dont need to completely rework it.

[hearty badge]

This game should not have to rely on dots. You should go play an MMO RPG if that's what you're looking for.

[regal lotus]

I dont even know where that is coming from. I think you are just trying to be a flaming troll.

Rely on DoTs? What?

[hearty badge]

Yes, rely on dots and long duration buffs. It's dumb. Small durations between 1-3 seconds at max.

[meager jasper]

I don't think bard is too far away from functional, theoretically. It already has a speed buff that could by itself be game-changing. It just needs to be way, way stronger to account for the fact the bard is doing basically nothing but maintain it. I think bard should be the best support-buffer in the game theoretically.

[regal lotus]

https://tenor.com/view/the-big-lebowski-thats-like-your-opinion-man-gif-15076479

[meager jasper]

That's how wizards were in PT4 in the higher levels of the game. They were important for the buffs.

Theroetically bard offers an even better AOE delivery-system for their magic, they just need bigger numbers.

[open matrix]

The point of a playtest is to check features, see how something works, and adjust. Of course bard wasn't finished and needs adjustment. That's obvious. It doesn't need a rework it just needs its features fixed, numbers adjusted, and more perks/songs.

[regal lotus]

yup

[open matrix]

I still hit level 20 on bard and loved it the whole time. Fun class.

[hearty badge]

Again, it should have never been released in the state it was when every other class received 4 times as many perk and skill options. It's complete nonsense.

[placid zinc]

Allow bards to sing songs without instruments equipped at a reduced effect. Instruments would amplify the song or be required for the juicy powerful songs.

[open matrix]

https://tinyurl.com/2eatd3fx
*pushes up my glasses
"Again, it should have never been released in the state it was when every other class received 4 times as many perk and skill options. It's complete nonsense."

[meager jasper]

There was also no scaling effect at all if I recall? Instruments need to have a magic modifier not unlike a magic focus for a wizard.

[night grove]

i played bard through out the entire playtest so im just going to throw out what i think the class needs 1 is obviously more songs the ideas i had were one that makes ai deaggro for everyone in the range this song doesnt have a timer it ends when the bard stops this would be good because it forces bard out of the fight but allows the class to still help A fun idea for a song would be a 1 time charge song that is a seduction song (cause bard) this would make it so one target is drawn into the bard and cant attack it would have a shortish range and could be stopped if the target takes dmg, For what the class already has i think tranquility should be playable during resting and it would buff the healing up to 3 per sec only if you hit perfect skill checks, chatoic discord should deaggro wraith and skelly champion only for bard, This class should be kept as a pure support utility class that makes the dungeon easier giving this class more combat buffs for themselves will just make them cleric 2.0 the only other change i would like and im sure its already the plan is more instruments i want them all harp flute violin hurdy gurdy even if they kept the class what it is with just the 4 songs different instruments would keep me playing forever

[regal lotus]

Its a playtest. Noone cares about you spewing the same opinion over and over. We get it..

[atomic mountain]

Suggestion: Revert torch to a utility slot item AND equippable item to off-hand or primary hand.
(Also bring back utility item slots displayed on screen to the left and right of healthbar)
Thoughts?
@amber solstice @lucid root

[hearty badge]

Yes, it's a playtest that went several steps backwards on implementation ideals. Kind of scary given how great it's been moving forward.

[placid zinc]

The songs that require you to play the melody then have it play 6s after should be the songs that require instruments. The songs that are instant should be allowed to be sung via vocals at a reduced effect.

[meager jasper]

I certainly agree. Torches were an auto-dropped item with the change.

[tranquil dagger]

really want to see the utility slots

[vivid rover]

the UI was completely superior before this playtest, i dont like the interaction circles either. its too streamlined with every other game, the bars were nicer

[regal lotus]

This is for discussing game suggestions. Not crying like a baby all day. blocking Ceeps.

[meager jasper]

It's obvious the Devs want light and darkness to be important and for torches to be something of a resource

[hearty badge]

I believe Bard's Lute should've been in the utility slot over the weapon slot. This would instantly skyrocket its viability.

[atomic mountain]

I think the aesthetic was better for sure. But I disliked the items not being displayed.

[willow thunder]

I think it should just be part of the Music Sheet skill

[meager jasper]

How do people think torches them being gear-slot items but having a time limit? With lanterns being superior for time and maybe re-usable?

[lucid root]

I do prefer the torch over the lantern aesthetically

[willow thunder]

Weird torch gives more light than lantern

[placid zinc]

Should be a generic perk that removes the utility belt completely and gives passive movement speed.

[meager jasper]

Lol wut? No one in their right mind would ever use that.

[willow thunder]

Generic class wide perks = good idea

[hearty badge]

Yikes

[willow thunder]

I'd use the shit out of that to be an even skankier rogue lol

[meager jasper]

Obviously you're completely new or you would know how important healing/protection is mid-combat.

[atomic mountain]

I see why you’d want this, for immersion, but limitations like removing it from being displayed was enough for a significant number of people to flat out neglect from interacting with the tool. Further limitations would discourage it’s use even further, so it’s a no from me

[placid zinc]

Just don't get hit

Also secondary weapon load out should apply a movement penalty even if not equipped.

[meager jasper]

It wasn't the limitation being added that was the problem IMO, it was it being forced into a weapon slot in a game where your second weapon slot is a life-or-death necessity to fill with a ranged weapon or something equally adaptive.

I'd rather fight in the dark than not have a crossbow as a fighter. I'd rather have a stick to at least break shit with as a wizard with a tome. etc.

[regal lotus]

They gave a lantern in belt and a weapon torch so that you can do both. You can have light in combat with a one hand equipped or just use the lantern.

[meager jasper]

I know, but that just means the torch is completely useless and the lantern replaced it. I don't think that's a positive.

[regal lotus]

You still have the option to drop or unequip the torch I dont get your point.

[atomic mountain]

The thing is, lanterns are what torches were. Torches being equippable(with a weapon also)is an added feature we didn’t previously have, but being only an off hand slot is suboptimal

[regal lotus]

Nah, its not completely useless there are times it is quite nice to have light and be able to do damage at the same time.

[placid zinc]

Armor and weapons should have durability and take extra damage if hit a wall.

[meager jasper]

I preferred being able to throw torches into rooms with a stack of them. I think if they want to make things more a resource though a time limit/fuel cost to them would make it so throwing a torch out a decision to make. And it would also add a money sink I'd add, which will ultimately be good for the economy of the game to counter inflation.

[rich kiln]

since hunters have to carry all these arrows why do we still have to reload after 5/6/7 shots instead of just drawing from the remaining arrows we have until we run out?

[atomic mountain]

Perhaps they felt Like torches being throwable and starting with a stack of three made them too spamable?

[lucid root]

Unless you could find torches that had like % loot rarity as an affix i would never use it over lantern now

[regal lotus]

Im down to get 3 throwable torches again too...

[hearty badge]

One thing that has been clear to me is that this game should not be going in the route of constant healing buffs/dots, and somewhat the same for damage. For classes like Rogue having damage dots tied to an ability, it makes sense.

[lucid root]

yeah i liked that, throwing torches around to help light up a room

[atomic mountain]

I think adding to the versatility of torches might make lanterns useless, but I’d also be ok with that. (We didn’t miss them before.)
Suggest: Both hands for torches can be used, and also can go into utility slot.

[placid zinc]

Pad lock Utility item should exist to add extra time it takes for someone to open a door. 2-3x depending on it's rarity

[meager jasper]

The real hardcore thing to do with the torch would be to force us to light them with an animation, and they can't be stored once lit, only tossed or held.

[atomic mountain]

Or they only one stack, but you can have one utility slotted to throw and one in a hand for use after if you so choose.

[regal lotus]

yea, sure

[burnt lynx]

Dear IRONMACE,

With the recent update implementing a more realistic arrow system, I would like to suggest an improvement to the ranger class that would enhance gameplay even further: adding a quiver.

The Quiver: A Specialized Inventory Slot for Rangers

I propose the introduction of a new, additional slot in the ranger's inventory specifically designed to store only arrows, called the quiver. This unique slot would be able to hold up to 20 to 30 arrows. Additional arrows need to be stored in the inventory as stacks of 10. Rangers who bring masses of arrows are punished and skilled players are rewarded in the right way. The quiver would streamline the inventory management process for ranger players and add a touch of realism to the game.

Benefits of Implementing the Quiver:

1. Inventory Management: A quiver would alleviate the issue of arrow storage taking up valuable inventory space, allowing rangers to carry more useful items and manage their inventory more efficiently.
2. Immersion and Realism: The introduction of a quiver would align with the realistic arrow system update, further enhancing the role-playing experience for ranger players.
3. Class Identity: The quiver would serve as a unique feature exclusive to the ranger class, providing a sense of class identity and promoting diverse gameplay strategies.
4. Balancing: The limited capacity of the quiver (30 arrows) would ensure that the change does not drastically affect the game's balance, while still offering a noticeable improvement to ranger gameplay.

In conclusion, I believe that the addition of a quiver to the ranger class in Dark and Darker would greatly improve the gameplay experience for ranger players, making inventory management more efficient and immersive. This proposal aligns with the recent update's focus on realism and would further differentiate the ranger class within the game.

Sincerely,
Burgi (Securer)

[placid zinc]

Bane and boon system would be cool for character customization. Bane example is you take extra piercing damage. Boon example is you are more resistant to poison.

[meager jasper]

... What a random thing to say. "I want random positives and negatives to customize my character with."