suggestion-discussion

[south anchor]

I regretted not playing much of wizard this last play test going to make up for it for sure

[lost inlet]

Just max out every class ez pz

[graceful frost]

It’s a weight system for stuff your carrying in your inventory like gold and stuff. There is already a weight system where you move slower for armor

[lost inlet]

Sounds good to me

[leaden tide]

I'm a ranger

[lost inlet]

Damn dude dont out yourself like that

[graceful frost]

Says the barb

[slate tartan]

Burn

[lost inlet]

Lol, i maxed every class. And i f i had to say wiz/ranger are broken. Barb early game is broken but balances out a little bit but hp/dmg still abit high rogue is situational as hell which is pretty balanced. Fighter is absolute garbo till u ger top tier gear and cleric which honestly i didnt expect to enjoy became my fav battle cleric is fun, but i hate that currently its a must have in partly play for bosses as a heal/buff bot

[graceful frost]

Ranger is not broken but sure. Barb is good and fighter is still fine without gear.

[lost inlet]

Kekw sure, being able to cheese every single bit of pve content isnt broken, ranger mains be delusional its so easy its unreal hence them getting nerfed playtest after playtest

[buoyant glacier]

You're entitled to your opinion and all, but everything you said there is emphatically and demonstrably incorrect.

[graceful frost]

I’m not talking pve lol.

[leaden tide]

Who cares about PVE jesus. No matter what change you make rangers will always dominate PVE unless you remove the class

[lost inlet]

Okay you guys just showed how delusional you are, lol

[graceful frost]

I mean I don’t judge a characters balance off pve

[lost inlet]

Lets not worry about pve at all in a PvEvP game smh. You have to balance it in all aspects or you just use one character to farm gear and funnel it to your other classes .

[graceful frost]

I mean saying the character is broken just cause of one half of the game and arguably the much smaller half to look at. We have been talking about in pvp

[lost inlet]

Thats why anything you guys suggest is irrelevant because your are tunnel visioning one side of the game, just look at last playtest they had to buff troll which was supposed to be a melee friendly boss by giving it hp regen so grey bow rangers didnt just farm it on repeat no that it changed much you just brought in a slight better bow. You have to balance all aspects not just 1

[leaden tide]

These changes dont affect boss killing though (well, any other boss, not tlaking about the troll). High end rangers are literally unfazed by having to buy arrows lol

[graceful frost]

Lmao the troll health regen didn’t change anything for rangers. They changed the troll scream which is what made it harder. I mean it’s not like we ignore the pve aspect but I don’t think it is close to as big as the pvp aspect and I think balancing around pvp over pve makes sense

[fiery ledge]

His point is (I think): Good players will always do good no matter what. This nerf on arrows is going to hurt the weaker players more than the high end players, possibly causing player loss.

[leaden tide]

Yes, exactly. Gold isn't a problem for good players so limited arrows is honestly irrelevant for them. All this does is nerf new players & players without gold. Arguably ranger does have the best starter kit BUT there were other ways to nerf that without introducing anti-fun mechanics

[dawn grotto]

I think you should wait to see the system before making drastic comments about it 🙂
No one has said gold will be the inconvenience of having a lot of arrows.

[jaunty tree]

based graysun response

[turbid ermine]

if it's weight/ inv space like stoneshard people will mald and shriek

[boreal sun]

surprised at how many downvotes the anti-limited-arrow suggestions have gotten
I really don't understand the people who vote sometimes

if the goal is to nerf rangers, there's many, much better ways of doing it

if the goal isn't to nerf rangers (after all, balance isn't a priority), then what's the point of the change? can't really criticize it until we know exactly how it works, but it's hard to imagine an implementation that'll be a net positive

[smoky yoke]

I really don't believe it is a nerf to be honest.
for what I recall, Ranger was mechanically incomplete

People will see it as nerf, because they played during playtests ect since it is under development the game

but imo we should wait to see the system, which will be after the playtest, not during this playtest

[gray vessel]

Pretty much the only consistency in the voting seems to be that the people are happy with what the devs have made so far, and are not worried that the devs will suddenly screw everything up. Of course that doesn't mean changes can't be made to make it better, just that: if the devs claimed something, the voters will follow suit.

[stray saffron]

i agree with silmeria, just hearing the quiver mechanism being added seems to add alot of panic of nerfing the ranger tho i have a feeling in the end we should wait and see how it's added to it before we ask for a buff or nerf with abilities attached to it.

[boreal sun]

it gives me the same worries as weight, where I can't imagine an implementation that won't wind up dragging down the experience
weight moreso than limited arrows, but still, they're hard to imagine being positive for the game

[stray saffron]

if it increases inventory clutter i agree it wouldn't be positive. but it might aswell just be a little longer reload with a bigger quiver size depending on the quality of it. and then they can even remove arrows gained on skills as it pretty much could use the same amount of arrows as was used when skill reloading

[haughty jasper]

if they made ranger get arrows back at a reasonable rate trough campfires it could be a good change, especially considering they spawn with one

[pseudo wing]

the devs actually play their own game abunch for once. they're not going to add anything that feels awful. they would have to deal with the rangers/bow fighters in their own office poisoning the water supply

[stray saffron]

if campfires would be the only way to get arrows, then not sure if the ranger would be playable at the start as now they lost their range abilities

[haughty jasper]

I'm gonna be honest, I forgot there are npc mobs. You are completely right, low level rangers are gonna struggle especially when one mummy takes 5 headshots with bad gear

[leaden tide]

Because they're annoying to play against, but casual players don't realize the core issue of rangers because they never played the class enough or competitively to understand it. That's why you should balance the game around the 1% otherwise you get dumb changes. Anything related to balancing should always be around the 1% and QoL should be around everyone

[gray vessel]

I'd disagree to a decent degree about the 1% idea, but at the same time I would be all for the devs taking the best of the best to do like a pvp/testing arena ONLY for the sake of balancing the classes at the endgame.

[leaden tide]

No one denies that ranger is very domineering in general, it has the best PVE (and so does Fighter due to being able to wield the longbow) and has a good starter kit compared to most classes & is the 3rd best class in HR according to statistics. And I will provide with feedback on how to fix all of that in a healthier way that doesn't force you to limit the arrows. But first let me explain why limiting arrows is a bad mechanic.

Basically humans don't like being limited, and especially not, knowing that the core game play of your class IS limited. (Playing a ranged class and knowing that I can only shoot "x" amount of arrows WILL make people stay away from the class). This also further adds maintenance to the class. (I don't know if it will be us having to buy the arrows or we will have to craft them ingame, or use a skill to get them, I do not know) but if it's crafting them or actually having to catch them from monsters that's even worse in my opinion. You will spending a considerable amount of time just to maintain your class core gameplay which will feel like a chore and WILL drive players away. I understand that you want to balance the class a bit more but I also believe that keeping the fun aspects and having as high as possible player retention is very important for any game's longevity and adding "extra work" or more "maintenance" to the class strikes as anti-fun rather than a balancing mechanic.

Rangers are very annoying to play against for most classes and that's because rangers get to shoot very often with little to no down time, it's annoying and there are ways to balance it without limiting the arrows.

PVE Balancing:
Rangers will always have an innate advantage due to being ranged, and to be honest I don't know how to balance the PVE to be more balanced for melee and not as skewed for ranged classes, limiting arrows won't work as most likely higher end players will always have more than enough arrows so the change wont affect their bossing capabilities at all.

One potential choice would be buffing bosses projectile defense, it will increase the time it takes rangers to kill bosses, which increases the odds of mistakes, more gold expenditure from potions, etc.
Another choice would be making more mechanics that require you to be closer to the boss rather than further away. (Such the lich circle for example dealing less damage the closer you are to the boss and more the farther away you are, etc)

PvP Balancing:
Every high end ranger agrees that the issue is the fact that we rarely have to use the reload option due to multishot & quick shot reloading our quiver. 99% of high end rangers run multishot simply to cancel the skill and have a full free reload, effectively skipping the 3 second reload animation.

Removing the free reload (maybe still allow them to be cast at 0 arrows but no longer fully filling the quiver and if the ability is cancelled the quiver will remain at 0) then rangers WILL have to reload far more often, which will reduce their impact, reduce their DPS (which will also affect PVE), and give melees a clear downtime in which they can take advantage of to push & punish rangers.

Another option would be another slight nerf to bow drawing speed or movement speed while moving. (Which will also increase the value of using the perks that buff those 2 things)

[boreal sun]

I mean, ranger is great everywhere, not just the 1%
I'm also not 100% sure that this is a "balance" change, or just a "missing feature", like iirc rangers used to never have to reload, and then reloading was added not as a nerf, but as a feature that was just missing

regardless I don't like the idea of arrows being a limited resource, but it's hard to blame this on "people complaining about balance"

[leaden tide]

It's an anti-fun gameplay feature not sure why it's a gameplay feature at all. No one who actually plays ranger would like to have limited arrows so it makes sense to consider it a balance feature rather than a pure gameplay feature

[pseudo wing]

I appreciate your analysis but it's just impossible to give a detailed critique of a game system when we don't know how it works yet. For all we know you'll have more arrows than you'll ever need and they just need an arrow item so it's possible to buy better arrows like lightning arrows etc to replace them with once arrow types are added.

[boreal sun]

there could be good reasons for it to exist
but it would seriously hurt the identity of the class if they just became "class that uses arming sword 90% of the time and the bow is just a consumable ranged option like throwing knives/franciscas"

just have to hope that the route they choose isn't a bad one

[leaden tide]

That's how it generally goes for most games, where you simply have more than you'll ever need, however, it still runs into psychological issues for humans that people don't enjoy being limited even if they don't realize that they'll never actual run into those limits. It's bad for player retention and will inherently turn people away from class. I realize that you can't please everyone but I think there are better ways to achieve the same purpose without the need for this.

[left moss]

mfw wizards and clerics have limited spells 💀

[leaden tide]

And both are S tier classes who are still above rangers

[left moss]

mfw rangers can't suck it up and deal with it 💀

[leaden tide]

mfw when you provide literally nothing to a discussion but still want to write just to be annoying

[left moss]

mfw you care 💀

[faint dirge]

Tell us sir

[tawny lagoon]

Rangers are clear top 2 for 99.5% of the playerbase, wizards are only better on top 200 HR

[leaden tide]

If we wanna go with the whole playerbase then they are still behind fighter and barbarian (And cleric since cleric is a must have for any 3v3 atm since its the only support class with invaluable buffs)

[graceful frost]

thats not rlly true. when your speaking 3v3 teams ranger is mid the real thing insane about ranger is pve, which is a part of the game but not as big as pvp in my opinion

tbh I think it goes wiz>cleric>barb>ranger>fighter>rogue(Keep in mind it is very close between ranger and fighter and like rogue but in a 3v3 teams setting this feels right)

[tawny lagoon]

I recommend watching a video called: “what do the statistics in playtest 4 tell us” which was posted by cloudz or someone called similar on share content

[graceful frost]

there isn't rlly many statistics to go off lol. there is leaderboard which kills cant rlly be trusted and there is play rate which does not relate to how good a character is

[leaden tide]

Don't get me wrong but I don't really need to watch a vid to see that barbarians and fighters have more kills despite being a lower % of players if we include the whole database & that wizard + barbarian are also above rangers in HR

Not to mention that statistics are often misinterpreted and don't tell the whole story. If you look at wizards data you think they are weak kek

[tawny lagoon]

It the only objective info we have rigth now tho

[turbid ermine]

Hell runs without ranger are pain

[graceful frost]

I just don't think the current data we have gives us enough to work with to make tier lists and rankings purely off of that. the small bit of objective info really doesnt give much of a indication of what character is best

[leaden tide]

Tier lists aren't made based on statistical data, they are made based on experience from HR players

[tawny lagoon]

In that case, we can not assume barb or wizard or anyone is better than other class

[graceful frost]

yeah and I think thats a much better source than playright and leaderboard where leaderboard would shot barb is number one by a landslide

[leaden tide]

And the only 2 S tiers right now objectively speaking are Wizards and Cleric since they are a must have in any composition. Barbarian being a potential S tier but with plenty of weaknesses if they dnt have a wizard

[turbid ermine]

Francisca barb is S tier for sure

[graceful frost]

Yeah, I think the main thng agreed upon ius wiz cleric s tier. the rest can really be debated between but tbh I consider barb better than the other 3

[leaden tide]

I do think barb is better than ranger. With the current meta that is

[graceful frost]

but for like pve its obviously ranger is best and like solo ranger is also relatively high up.

[leaden tide]

The reason ranger gets all the hate is due to heavy PVE dominance, which is honestly more and more irrelevant as the playerbase gets more experienced since PVE isn't that hard

[graceful frost]

I might just run fighter now with a crossbow or a longbow and bring in a small amount of arrows. idk if im gonna run ranger, depends on how it is

[tawny lagoon]

This is all about feelings, not evidence tho

[graceful frost]

also in 3 person pve is really not much of an important factor. at least with good gear

[turbid ermine]

Wizard with a crossbow tho

[leaden tide]

experience, not feelings. As I said, if you use statistical data wizards looks absolutely awful, go tell that to ANY HR player and they'll laugh at your face

[graceful frost]

might as well go off of experience cause the data is negligible and doesn't give much.

the data currently really would show wizard and cleric have least kills and playrate making them worse even though they are the best 2

[leaden tide]

I do think there is value to be withdrawn from statistical data for sure, but saying something is OP or weak without proper context or reasoning just based on data doesn't really work out as intended

SAme reason you may think barbarians would be the #1 class in the game right now as they dominated the overall playtest kills in both normals and HR, but in HR barbarians would likely go down from 30% kills to 10% if they didn't play with wizards and normal kills are being boosted by goblin caves being the perfect map for them.

[graceful frost]

yeah. I just dont think there is enough data to say an opinion is wrong cause its based off expirience and not data

I think basing it off hr expirience and best players expirience is a better idea currently then off stuff like play rate and leaderboard kills

[turbid ermine]

Or not, some hr players are very biased...

[leaden tide]

which is why the team should setup a group with a large portion of them and have the group reach a consensus so that the odd balls aren't relevant

[graceful frost]

true but taking the overall consensus and trying to account for bias. It still isn't great but I trust it more than play rate and leaderboard kills

[turbid ermine]

Yep, that works aslong as none of them is a content creator that stirs public opinion their way

[timber pebble]

@terse briar it already does give negative resistance, it just doesn't give enough, max like -13% with nothing equipped

[turbid ermine]

Too many times has a contenvt creator solely forced a fighting game to change

[leaden tide]

I mean, the team should have a creators program so that they can also sort of avoid them making these kinds fo videos. Content creators are more likely to avoid these controversial topics if they have a reason to avoid them. But this isn't really an issue right now anyways

[timber pebble]

imo the pentality should be bumped to 40% or 50% max physical vulnerability cause it makes no sense you can be ass-naked walking around and only take a teeny bit more damage vs a garb

[turbid ermine]

That's true for starter gear...not for anything else

[graceful frost]

yeah

[atomic mountain]

I’m glad that the keeps sticking to their guns and saying that fun is the most important thing to them

[graceful frost]

I love this game still though so idrc

[turbid ermine]

For fun purposes bard should have a luteaxe, m2 to strike the strings, m1 to swing

[terse briar]

Didnt knew it sry mb

[graceful frost]

yes lol

[turbid ermine]

No one
The bard mid teamfight: https://youtu.be/dXll36-xbMA

[graceful frost]

@opal leaf haste or speed potion is an awful idea

[turbid ermine]

We already got issues with barb weakness been ignored via wizard, imagine if we didn't even need a wizard and can replace them with another barb

[graceful frost]

fights would be whoever has the most and would be terrible

[leaden tide]

lmao

[rare sandal]

Seing the recent Tarkov drama following the "I cheated" video, and now BSG adjusting the market to combat rmt. Im gonna say D&D should make a step back from the marketplace. It is gonna be a huge factor for hacking. The player to player trades will be a problem and is also a huge disadvantage for solo players. Auctions only might be the way to go.

[glacial sphinx]

That makes very little sense.

[graceful frost]

tbh no matter what they do I think its gonna be hard to make good. cause auction house with bidding will inflate prices, and there will just be the same issue where its the first to click buy on something in a marketplace. Just gonna be the same as trade chat only designed different

[west cloak]

L take-- just because tarkov has a cheater issue doesn't mean we should take mechanics away from dark and darker just because it could happen.

[leaden tide]

doesn't matter, people will just go ingame and get the items dropped anyways

[rare sandal]

If there will be hype around this. It will be worse than Tarkov. If there is gear fear and player to player trades there will be more people developing hacks for it. Also D&D made seperate stashes a thing for a reason i assume, the market right now makes it completely pointless cause you get a friend to move stuff.

[rare sandal]

If you have to actually go through a raid to exchange you have a huge risk of losing it obviously and also increases transaction time to the point were you cant do rmt or move ur entire stash quick.

[west cloak]

What if people just cheat to insure whoever they trade to makes it out? By removing player trade you could make the cheater problem worse

[rare sandal]

So we make it easier for cheaters so they dont have to hack as much ?

[cold condor]

DaDs direct trading is very easy way to do RMT transactions, though.

[granite plinth]

ranger will become an arrow system? nice

[cold condor]

But AH system isn't that much harder to adapt to RMT, cash trader can just buy trash item for agreed upon amount of in-game currency.

[rare sandal]

Might be true i cant think of a good comparison to D&D that actually has a decent AH system. But AH is just fairer in general i think..People love the current system because you can rip off newer players that dont know item stats

[cold condor]

I think the way to go is to rig machine learning algorithm to transaction data, in order to identify RMT bot networks and ban them when they're the most vulnerable (lots of in-game currency accumulated = wasted man-hours, large amount of pending orders = reputational losses). There might be some false positives, though.

[turbid ermine]

But that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make

[rare sandal]

Yeah that sounds great. We will see how well it works im sure there will be legit people using bots at some point, too. I think its still worth looking at Tarkov and having this conversation more often, if the game releases like this it will be hard to convince people to change to a less convenient system.

[copper ibex]

Rmt is something dev's have been trying to combat with little to no luck for some 30 years, as soon as a game allows any kind of gear or loot transfer there will be rmt. You can of course make it more difficult to practice rmt but at what point do the measures against rmt hamper the game itself. Preventing hacking, cheating or even fixing exploits quickly will already reduce rmt to large degree. If rmt'ers have to put in the same amount of time and effort as other players it'll go down automatically. And to be fair, imo, i'm more worried about facing a cheater or hacker than i am about some guy that possibly spent hundreds of euro's only to loose it in the match...

[inner ember]

Agreed, arguably the people that spend money to cut corners to obtain higher tier gear suck at the game and will just as quickly lose it

If anything I want to fight people that do that, more for me

[rare sandal]

Yeah it seems like people love the p2p trading. I liked the idea of having to use what you find and not allways have same loadout. People with high gear low skill is what you want but i believe as soon as there would be money in rmts it would only be hackers running it

[inner ember]

That's a good point I hadn't thought of @rare sandal hackers/exploiters + paid for loot is big trouble

[cold condor]

It's not so much the end user that's problem with RMT, but overall ecosystem decay caused by it: inflation, spammed chats, bot filled lobbies, etc.

From the business perspective, they're siphoning spare income of your users that could've been spent on your product instead, while making your product worse at the same time.

[atomic mountain]

PoE is a free to play game and they do a good job protecting the ecosystem and player experience with regards to those things no?
So I think it’s possible to do

[cold condor]

Absolutely, in many respects it's easier to curb than cheat vendors.

[rare sandal]

Was gonna get into PoE until the next test but then I went with mordhau.. but ive heard alot of good things about PoE.

[copper ibex]

True, that's basically what i said. Large scale rmt is a consequence of the hacking/cheating problem. Preventing or rather reducing either to a large degree is easier said than done. Some games have succeeded to a large degree primarily because hacking is a difficult and time consuming thing to do in those games which prevents most rmt because the prices are high for items and currency.

[distant night]

A throwable pot that disables healing for a short duration could be a good idea, like in dark souls

the unkillable barbs+cleric become killable if you have your rogue buddy disabling their heals

[patent roost]

I could see some abilities debuffing healing (rogue poison etc) but idk about a potion that everyone has on them

[distant night]

rogue specific could give them a purpose in teams ig

[timber pebble]

give wizard a gun

[white cliff]

@timber pebble Training ground is coming just not next PT, refer to the #dev-qna for topics discussed yesterday.

[thorn ivy]

lol disabling healing is such a joke suggestion

it's so limited in usage as it stands and you're like 'yeah lets just completely disable the point of an entire class'. meta will shift to no one playing cleric. but that's what you want I guess. support role in a team game = bad because I can't two shot everyone and end fights in 3 seconds.

[distant night]

thats a pretty limited way of seeing the idea

[thorn ivy]

A throwable pot that disables healing for a short duration could be a good idea

[sturdy anchor]

I think maybe it being an ability would be fine, but everyone possibly having could be a bit much, but it is a viable idea

[thorn ivy]

every time I watch fights people are dying in one-two hits and you think healing needs to be deleted from fights. what, someone lands a holy light in between a swing to keep someone alive for a couple more seconds and that's unacceptable to you? 👀

[stark rain]

Depends on how long the effect lasts and how frequently it can be applied. It may actually make sense for Cleric to have an anti-healing debuff spell similar to their Bind as it forces a team's cleric to choose between holding a big heal for their front liner or denying heals at a crucial moment. Perhaps if the duration was short and only affected magical healing...

[thorn ivy]

I think it makes sense to tackle buffs. I'd give cleanse the ability to purge buffs if it hits people outside your party.

I would consider reducing the number of spell uses on cleanse though. That'd be a major thing. 3 at tops.

[vocal lodge]

is true that archers will have limited arrows in the next playtest? or just a rumor.

[thorn ivy]

Maybe even an entirely different spell.

[abstract swallow]

healing will be far less problematic if/when scaling gets fixed, because almost everything that pumps damage also pumps healing
anything else is just fixing potion stacking so kitted frontliners don't walk into fights with a full second healthbar like some kind of hobo final fantasy boss

[stark rain]

That could be good 🤔. It may be a bit op if it wipes out ALL buffs. Would suck if you made a point of grabbing two shrines right before a fight and then got buffed by teammates. Might need to have a limit to the number of buffs it can remove. Also, shield potions and healing potions are counted as buffs so that could be really broken

[thorn ivy]

This is the danger, cleanse is used for PVE also so nuking spell capacity could wreck that usage

Cleanse in PVP kinda has limited usage because most debuffs tend to fall off quick enough that committing a spell cast to that feels meh

Maybe removing 1 buff is the play. You could retain the spell capacity and give it more viability in pvp.

I kinda feel like it should ignore health pots. Doesn't feel like you're removing magic.

[atomic mountain]

I would imagine that shrines would be immune to any sort of mechanic like that. In my mind they seem like temporary perma buffs

[stark rain]

Perhaps if it could only clear buffs that were not "self-cast"?

[atomic mountain]

Yeah that too sounds reasonable
Would be kind of ridiculous if somebody can just take away your 30 second cool down buff / ability lol

[stark rain]

Imagine a cleric clearing a fighter's second wind or sprint right as they pop it 😂 . It would feel so dogshit to be on the receiving end. Imo, its almost more important to balance around how it feels to do something/have it done to you than the actual strength of an ability/item

[abstract swallow]

solid limitation that makes it less of a free-1v1 button

[atomic mountain]

Yeah so far it seems like that’s what they’re doing. They don’t want any one person or class to be upset but you also can’t please everybody in all things

[thorn ivy]

what if it only removed 'magical buffs' i.e prot bless divine strike haste invis

cause yeah it absolutely shouldn't remove something that's like one use

[abstract swallow]

given that it's pretty much one dude in charge of class balance who just makes quick spot-patches for balance depending on solely the feedback from other team members playing the game, I'd say we shouldn't expect too much until they start cracking at the math

[atomic mountain]

Yeah that’s fair, it’s my hope others will also meter their expectations on this topic as well

[ocean quartz]

.shortinfo 1638576 Does anyone know if the Devs have ever answered a question about this being implemented in any Q&A

[eager sable]

Suggestion from JesusTickles#1119

Introduce a friends list to the game. It becomes quiet tedious to add new people through discord when the game now has party VoIP. Could also add a Clan type system where you can invite people into a clan, and clan members can see who is online in lobby and can send invites to them. Would add more social elements to the game, could even make friends with someone who kills you or someone you kill with either of these mechanics implemented.

Opinion:

+87

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1638576 | Submitted at · Mar 3, 2023, 11:01 PM

[abstract swallow]

friends list is confirmed, just not a priority

[stark rain]

Yes, a question about steam friends was asked yesterday morning, but confirmed to be low priority

[ocean quartz]

kk thx guys

[amber sentinel]

I'm afraid of cheats in FPS, in my opinion D&D must provide an effective report/replay system. Then "quarantine" cheaters against other cheaters. Indeed in all the FPS where there is cheat the ban is useless. Because the cheaters are redoing an account.
What do you think ?

[abstract swallow]

replay system would be great for anti-cheat and content creators
and just learning from mistakes

[amber solstice]

They are focused on getting everything they want into the game and have repeatedly stated they they don't care about fine tuning any time soon. Each new addition causes a ripple effect of balancing required. They'll touch on stuff to test things out and try to get rid of oppressive or depressive gameplay. But the game just needs playable and enjoyable until its end stages. It good for them to keep track of what's too strong or weak, especially if its unexpectedly so. All we are doing now is wildly speculating without any idea of the full spectrum of what they are currently working on, aware of, or worried about beside a few hints and infographics.

No one wants to be nerfed. No one wants to be weak.
Most people want their playstyle to be best, the stronger the better.
This leads to very unforgiving biases from people playing the game.

Balance is hard in any game. Class based games basically make it impossible. That's why strictly for PvP, I prefer classless designs. But most people asking for buffs and nerfs are doing it entirely for selfish reasons, and not actual balance.

New abilities are usually exciting but are incredibly hard to balance and make fit without invalidating some other aspect of game play.

[abstract swallow]

yeah, the lack of focus on balance is an incredibly health decision from a game design perspective
they're conscious of the fact that they have an incomplete product that will be heavily influenced by future design decisions and inclusions (like the Arrow/Quiver change that's a hot topic right now), and by not creating balance-oriented decisions they aren't burdened by trying to maintain and adapt those decisions or that standard of balance
It also shows a willingness to really let their vision and ideas fly, with a focus on creating the game they want and the ideas they think are fun or cool, before trying to work them into a larger framework

I want to see the absolutely UNHINGED Talent system we've seen talked about in hushed whispers, not some neutered balance-oriented Perk-And-Skill checklist that's more worried about fairness than mechanical expression and creativity from the developers and players alike

[atomic mountain]

The devs know how to Ponder the Orb

[thorn ivy]

it's really hard to get a good talent system often times it's just a check list of shit everyone picks

[subtle jackal]

the game isn't even in beta. it's no where near going gold. of course it's balance is still shucked

[crimson stag]

On the topic of balance I'm glad Clerics almost never get talked about. To me it seems like a sign that my favorite class is in a pretty good place for now. Wizards, Barbarians and Rangers have gotten all the discussion since the playtest ended.

[cold condor]

Fighter got good deal of attention as well, mainly due to sky-high physical resist build

[abstract swallow]

cleric was a hot topic when buffball was, especially Judgement
but as Stepan said there were way juicier dumb builds holding people's attention at the end of the playtest

[crimson stag]

Buffball will always be powerful I think. We called it a pokemon battle whenever we ran into another team doing the same thing.

[abstract swallow]

BuffBall is fun, and if they give the buffs counterplay I think it'll be really fun to fight
running AntiBall was honestly a great time in High Roller, I just wished I could have had the full comp more often

[atomic mountain]

Buffballsaur vs Buffballsaur

[abstract swallow]

that'll be for when we get Druids added to the game and they go full CoDzilla on teams

[atomic mountain]

Bearballsaur: a new challenger approaches

[crimson stag]

Some sort of dispel magic would be interesting though I'd not give it to cleric or wizard, they have enough utility already.

[brave notch]

I personally would like to see the cleric be less heal spammy 🤷‍♀️

[mossy plank]

Who wins? Pre-buffzilla druid vs one sneaky boi

[stark rain]

I would like to see more debuff style spells on cleric! Would make them more solo-viable and increase playstyle variety

[abstract swallow]

Dispell Magic scrolls are going to be my JAM when they drop scrolls bro
I want to harvest a bountiful field of Twitch clips of streamers getting dispelled and donked

[crimson stag]

It would be interesting to see a party with a fighter/barb and two clerics, one to debuff and one to buff.
The ultimate pokemon team.

[amber solstice]

Bards having an aura that prevents the benefits of buffs while inside could be an interesting idea. So that it's not just a full dispel, and a lot of choices are made of staying in or out and trying to keep people in.

[crimson stag]

I think it'd be best to give it to a class that isn't normally a part of the buffball, like ranger or rogue somehow.
It would give a good reason to shake up the team comp.

[abstract swallow]

oh damn that could be sick, imagine engaging with solely protective/speed buffs and then dropping the Sound of Silence on a fight to leverage that planned advantage
very soulful

[mossy plank]

Big hope is bard has solo potential. Class should be a bit Jack of trades as opposed to a complete buffbot

Yes I main hunting horn in monster hunter how could you tell

[abstract swallow]

given that bard is going to be a (presumably) swift melee fighter with a heal, Bard will probably rival Ranger/Wizard solo potential

[stark rain]

I'd like to see a 'spell' for bard that applies a debuff: When you take damage, take x additional magic damage, debuff is consumed

[mossy plank]

Just get the debuff song from neverwinter nights

Song trashes enemy stats and AC. Straight into the gutter

[earnest dew]

Fighters have two opposite problems: sky-high level of phys resistance due to the random attribute of the same name, and the insufficient level of physical resistance from bare armor (w/o "phys res" attribute).

[jaunty tree]

all the bozos whinging over unlimited arrows being removed

[mossy plank]

It and rogue are best candidates for the hand crossbow also.

[crimson stag]

I doubt arrows will even be expensive enough to matter. It'll be easy to bring 120 in and not worry about it the whole delve. The winge will continue though...

[jaunty tree]

exactly, people are freaking out over it lol

[cold condor]

Can't see what's the fuss is about, we had zero details on how it will be implemented

[mossy plank]

Damn I really hate the fact rangers get some actual drawback for their range spam

[vapid bridge]

The issue with Arrows being another item in the rangers inventory is that they already have the bulkiest items. Between traps and campfires they lose the most inventory slots for their gear and its already a minor gold sink to replenish traps and a campfire.

[crimson stag]

Their utility items are also the strongest in the game. It makes sense that there will be some drawbacks to that kind of map control and recovery ability.

[cold condor]

it's not like rogues and barbarians have it easy when using throwables

[brave notch]

Yea that would be cool, not a big fan of the complete support play style they have atm. Always thought the bard for that.

[crimson stag]

Whenever we had a ranger in the party he was anything but support. the ranged damage to chip away at enemy heals and buffs before engaging was really useful.

[vapid bridge]

While I agree this change is akin to making swords break overtime so the fighter needs to bring extra. It's not a good way to balance this. But I'll just play other classes until they figure that out.

[jaunty tree]

traps are insane, I'd gladly carry them in my inventory if I could use them on other classes lol. also other classes carry camp fires, ranger is just privledged enough to start with one

[brave notch]

Sorry I meant to reply to a message about the cleric earlier not the ranger lol

[abstract swallow]

Weapon Mastery Fighter and Trapsense Rogue should be given Trap proficiency, change my mind

[crimson stag]

Bows already deal as much damage as a sword or more at a much greater distance. Giving them limited ammo would bring them into a more balanced position compared to melee weapons.
@brave notch Ah fair enough XD. I love playing support in any game I play so I don't mind but you can build a pretty oppressive cleric with the right perks and alcohol.

[jaunty tree]

make smoke bomb a utility item for rogue like trap is for ranger

[crimson stag]

That'd make a lot of sense actually.

[earnest dew]

cattraps too

[glacial sphinx]

Would it though, those things are supposed to be used without arming time right? So just having them as a consumable lets you spam the entire level full of smoke.

[abstract swallow]

this seems like a sound strategy to me
I want to chuck smoke bombs into people fighting in PvE/people who engage me mid-PvE before I hide and force re-aggro

[regal lion]

I like smokebomb how it is

[abstract swallow]

I think it taking up a slot that Hide/Ambush/Weakpoint does makes it fundamentally unusable in its current state, same with Caltrops
Rogue would need some sort of scaling off of debuffed targets, or something else to replace those two being core to his PvP kit

[inner thorn]

Make user see through it better and deal

[regal lion]

I used it and would win most of the time

[abstract swallow]

congrats on winning with the handicap, king

it's not like it's useless, slows and visibility control are super underrated, especially if you putz around with doors/levers/verticality
but it's not "let your Fighter onetap a Prot'd Barbarian" or "turns 6 pieces of Budget +Will gear into a oneshot kill on half the classes"

[thorn ivy]

it's basically only bad players complaining about heals existing

cause they zug into a frontline and no one deals with the cleric then complain he sat there and got to chuck heals

[turbid grotto]

Shhh don’t talk about wizard anymore

[abstract swallow]

if a cleric is getting off more than one heal in a fight you've either been outplayed hard or you're blindly pushing into their chokepoint
charging a heal drops a fat movement speed penalty, has a cast charge time and flourish, and requires targeting with the jankiest casting since PS1 Harry Potter games

[pallid lichen]

I agree that the weaker perks and skills should be buffed by not with your solution here

I think some tweaks to smoke bomb can make it a stronger competitor. Things like making it more useful for PVE, a slight cloudy screen effect enemies, slightly bigger size and some other tweaks could bring out its power more

[atomic mountain]

Zug zug

[high bone]

Nah smokebomb is fine as it is but i would like to see caltrops as a usable and the 10 steps perk to be in the base stealth ability so that you could rock with stealth and smoke bomb + caltops

[crimson stag]

Make smoke bombs an item but give the rogue a skill that lets them see through it

[mossy ruin]

I think vision related stuff will be on warlock

[amber solstice]

Pocket sand that blinded, and had to be a headshot to do anything would be a lot of fun.

[pallid lichen]

I don’t want to make smoke bombs an item. Don’t want potential smoke bomb spam. And I like the identity aspect of having smokebomb be a skill.

[amber solstice]

Imagine hearing the sound of sand hitting your armor, and you turn around and see him hit your chest with sand. Thanks for the polish. lol

Bola would also be an interesting concept. Could be removed like a hunter trap. Could even be hitbox variable. So legs=slower speed until removed, chest=slower attack/cast, head=reduced vision.

[atomic mountain]

Bolas!

[pallid lichen]

Bolas?

[amber solstice]

rope with weights attached that you throw at people.

[leaden tide]

Bolas would be fun as hell ngl

[fickle plover]

yea maybe a throwable for ranger

[amber solstice]

Maybe like cleric+rogue?

[fickle plover]

that you buy or find

[leaden tide]

I think bolas for rogue would make sense

[amber solstice]

Cowboy Cleric, Master Bolateer? Bolanator? Whirler?

Incapacitates would also be fun. Sleep poison that does no damage. Blowdarts, that sort of thing. Being able to loot incapacitated mobs and players. Just has to be harder to do than actually killing them so no one can really complain about it. He killed me twice over and only took some of my stuff doesn't hold much weight.

[atomic mountain]

Knock backs please
I want to tummy bump
As a chubby music man

[amber solstice]

Lunges are an unexplored mechanic so far too. Fighter with defensive lunge to party members. Some new class that can charge an enemy to knock them back. Even knockback mechanics/attacks with shields, or large bellies, would be interesting too

[lusty wren]

sleep sounds super lame 😄

[amber solstice]

It goes in line with having a non-lethal oriented playstyle of pickpocketing. It does disproportionately piss people off though. Most people would much rather just die. lol

[lusty wren]

Ya, I just do not think stuns (especially overly long ones) fit into the game very well.

TTK would have to be adjusted by mountains for stuns to work. Especially something as long as how this sleep is suggested.

[mossy ruin]

Or stuns can give DR but thats a yucky bandaid fix

[amber solstice]

That's why it would have to be significantly more work than just killing them. They essentially killed you but decided to spare your life.

[lusty wren]

So what are you thinking? You have to knock them down to 5hp before you can sleep?

[mossy ruin]

Stuns would be death sentence in this type of game, very agree would be silly

[amber solstice]

Like say you have to do like 2x sleep damage than their health. So they basically killed you twice.

[lusty wren]

So sleep would be tied to a weapon? Or itd be like a toggle or something?

If you say gave rogue a sleep poison, that applied a DoT to the enemy and if that enemy would have died during the time that DOT is up they are put to sleep instead of dying?

I could see something like that working i guess

[amber solstice]

I was thinking more along the lines of specific non-lethal weapons. Like a syringe or a blowdart. Possibly a very noticable application to normal weapons, like a bright pink weapon glow. Have them basically do less sleep poison than a similar weapon would do. So instead of hitting you with a rondel 5x to kill, it takes 7-10 shots with a similarly powerful sleep syringe. No actual damage dealt or maybe super tiny amounts so if they don't fully incapacitate you it does absolutely nothing. Takes longer and is harder than just killing them to avoid being powerful or meta, but still be an option and feel deserved lol.

[lusty wren]

My worry about that is scale, would these items scale the way normal offensive items do? If so you are still devolving to one bonking 😄 (though maybe this is solved by making Defensive items actually do something)

[amber solstice]

If someone gets geared enough to 1 shot you doing 30-50% reduced damage, do they not deserve to kill you or gently take off your shoes and tuck you into bed? lol

And again, it's just strictly worse than killing them unless you handle all their teammates, and you have to loot faster because they'll wake up.

[boreal sun]

-the difference between 30% and 50% reduced damage is massive
-most classes cannot surpass 30% unless they're specifically stacking % reduction on gear enchantments
-the rate at which damage increases from gear scaling far outpaces the rate at which defense increases

you could argue no, they don't really deserve to 1 shot you

[lusty wren]

Eh, I dislike how the meta devolves into one shotting personally. I think TTK high end vs high end should be roughly what starter gear TTK is

But this can be solved by making D items actually scale appropriately

[boreal sun]

to elaborate

the damage difference between grey weapons and purples/legendaries can often reach 50% more damage just from the weapon alone

in order to raise your effective HP by 50%, you need at least 33% damage reduction

most classes cannot even reach 33% even if they have all unique gear with max rolls and are specifically using the best defensive gear possible

damage on gear far outpaces defense on gear and it leads to unhealthy TTK even in situations where gear is "equal"

[amber solstice]

The majority of the top vs top player 1shots are rangers vs squishies. The issue is that the overwhelming majority of kills is 1-3 dudes with like 99% chance of winning absolutely destroying 1-3 dudes that have no idea what's happening.

[lusty wren]

Barbs one shot vastly more than rangers from my experience 😄

[atomic mountain]

For default (white) stats is what you’re referring to right?

[boreal sun]

grey
"poor"
the inbetween of default and white

[lusty wren]

You can get over 200dmg on a barb that can cut thru what 75% of your armor? So take 30% off of that that is still 140dmg that ignorses 75% of armor

[atomic mountain]

No I meant :

when you were saying that people can’t get the 33% damage reduction for physical or magical

you’re talking about the white stats that armor offers correct? (The non-rolled stat values)

[boreal sun]

no
I said "unique rarity with best possible rolls"
the only classes that can get significantly higher are fighter and cleric, everyone else is stuck below 33% (except barb who is slightly higher)

[amber solstice]

Show me a clip of any good player using that skill. Almost every top player considers it a noob trap. Good players love to see it, 1 dodge and then the barb turns into wet toilet paper.

[boreal sun]

armor scaling is very bad at low amounts
100 AR only nets you about 19% reduction

[lusty wren]

Metas change especially when you put in things like sleep on weapons. Why would you not expect metas to shift? Just because they dont now doesnt mean they wont when they can one shot sleep people

[boreal sun]

the best possible AR you can get is about 300 on fighter (before defense expert), if you're not using enchantments (which most don't unless they're specifically building for it)

and most classes don't have plate armor so they can't even hope to reach that level

[lusty wren]

and then what is 75% of that 😄

Better yet, what is 25% of that? 😄

[boreal sun]

225? if my mental math checks out
75 for 25%

[atomic mountain]

OK so I do understand what you’re getting at. You’re talking about the non-enchanted values 👍

[amber solstice]

I don't think that 1 shot sleeping people should be a thing if it is ever implemented into the game. It is very easy to avoid balance wise. But if someone is able to 1 shot you, and then they have a weapon that does 50% less damage and can 1 shot you with it, and actually hit you with it, what do you actually have to complain about? Your issue seems to be with 1 shots and scaling in general. I don't even think it should be put into the game. I just like creative brainstorming and trying to find a functional way to implement a unique and compelling facet of gameplay.

[lusty wren]

Yes my issue is with one shots and scaling. And with the power scale you described it would still be possible for it to one shot sleep. So that is what I take issue with

I did say though that fixing defensive scaling could solve this

Honestly I dont see them not adjusting the scaling of D items or at minimum reducing offensive scaling so my entire point may be moot

For the record, I dont think a one shot should be out of the question. Super buffed barb and super buffed ranger go toe to toe, Ranger wearing all offensive gear, a barb probably should 1 tap him.

Just not to the point we have now. Where just about everything devolves into one shots

[amber solstice]

Any adjustment to TTK and scaling has huge implications with the balance of every class and every system in place. Any nerf to damage is an indirect buff to healing/effective health. As is any buff to healing/effective health being an indirect nerf to damage. It's an incredibly slippery slope from a balance perspective.

I have 280 hours played, leveled everything to 20 multiple times and I basically never got 1 shot on any character but wizard, unless I was fighting the troll. I'd love to see their official statistics on 1 shots. But it honestly feels like a lot of people just have the W key and trade mentality expecting to at least win 50% of their fights when in a lot of cases they basically have no shot at all. There is no trying to escape, they just make eye contact and full send it. Do I try to trade with a barb on any class that isn't a barb? Hell no. Do I try to chase a ranger in the direction he came from? Hell no. When I play my barb do I destroy most other non-barb classes that try to trade hit for hit? Absolutely. The average player right now has no idea what their strengths are, what their opponents weaknesses are, or how to capitalize on either. Most people just don't have the game knowledge, game skill, or critical thinking skills to make advantageous decisions and just scream NERF NERF NERF BUFF BUFF BUFF.

When I first started I picked barbarian, played solo normal castle and got to level 15 before my first escape. I honestly can't even recall any kills I got that early on. Now I can get a barb to 20 in 3 hours and die maybe 3-5x in the process playing solo castle. Average player skill level is going to skyrocket with early access and make a lot of complaints look very stupid.

[abstract swallow]

I think that Kurt's Oneshot Meta post touched on this really well, and was very honed-in on the fact that the SCOPE of damage was too volatile and easily overwhelming
even if you nerf different characters or sources of the damage, unless a concentrated effort is made to bring the systems responsible into a sensible scope you're just moving the problem around
you've gotta turn all the bolts in the same direction instead of playing whack-a-mole with specific instances of balance, especially with a community still as low-skill and uninformed as the Playtests have had

[lusty wren]

The reason so many people just hold W and swing is because that is what it devolves to whoever gets the one tap first wins 😄

But of course if you adjust things you have to balance it. This is game development 101. yes adjusting ttk and scaling has huge implications which is why its not just a I adjust one thing and let it be. Many things have to be adjusted again this is development 101

These devs seem experienced I would expect them to know that adjusting TTK takes a light touch and a touch on many different aspects of the game

[wise wing]

can anyone tell me why my suggestion flopped so hard?#d-and-d-suggestions message

it wasnt a pve suggestion

[atomic mountain]

Because

1. people are still in their feelings about the change
2. The devs seem to have an idea on where they want to go with arrows
3. Infinite arrows is part of why they made the change. Suggesting another infinite arrow is not what the devs seem to want

[wise wing]

that was a small part of it

[wise wing]

i get that and also dont because if you dont have any type of infinite dmg source then its just not good especially your classes specialty weapon

[cold condor]

What's the point of suggestions about mechanic that is not yet known?

Let's see the implementation of limited ammunition first.

[wise wing]

to give the devs a different perspective

[lusty wren]

Did they confirm they are going to finite ammo? If so can I get a source I musta missed this

[stark rain]

Also, speculating keeps the withdrawals at bay

[mossy plank]

A unique that has infinite arrows. Like that one legendary bow from sunwell raid in WoW

[wise wing]

#ranger message

[atomic mountain]

Wizards have a limited spells.

[lusty wren]

Is this in the ranger channel? Says I have no access

[amber solstice]

There are a lot of issues. It implies multiple things, which is generally frowned upon because people can take issue with any part of it.

1. Make arrows do more damage to PvE.
   Rangers really don't need any additional PvE benefits.
2. Base arrow that is weaker and infinite.
   Maintains infinite ammo and also implies different rarity and quite possibly even better arrows. So your suggesting implies multiple buffs for rangers when the whole point is to add some kind of limitation to them.

[wise wing]

yeah just mark ranger class

[lusty wren]

Thanks

[wise wing]

i think thats where the misunderstanding is

[lusty wren]

Ya rangers are already the number one cheesers of pve

[wise wing]

i wasnt trying to say make them do more dmg to pve just balance the weaker arrow to do more dmg to pve but less than now

[atomic mountain]

At the end of the day you’ll just need to have faith that they know what they’re doing with class balance.
Personally I would recommend you make suggestions that are either
A. very well received in the community and perhaps the devs have not heard.

B. An interesting idea that would add more depth to the game without making things more complex or unappealing

You asked us why your sugg didn’t do well, we told you why, And we’re not trying to flame you it’s just the truth

[lusty wren]

Probably should reword that than. Because it seems to just flat out say should do more dmg to pve 😄

[wise wing]

yeah i made that at 2am lol

[astral tartan]

whos struggling with pve as a ranger, figure it tf out

[lusty wren]

I feel the struggle

[wise wing]

did you read the whole convo?

[astral tartan]

no i read buff arrow damage for pve and stopped reading everything else

[wise wing]

it was more in depth than that lol

[lusty wren]

This is why I suggested a reword this is what the vast majority probably did

Vote system is binary so the moment they see something they do not like it becomes a no

[atomic mountain]

Usually if you have to explain why you think your suggestion is good inside of the suggestion it’s either not good or It’s too complicated for people to understand

[cold condor]

"Fighters will get some new Perks and Skills. If everything goes according to plan, we will give the ranger a quiver and arrow system. " - quote from Q&A

There's no indication that arrows will even be finite.

[wise wing]

#ranger message

[lusty wren]

The post ole boy put seems to be a bit more clear about this

[astral tartan]

arrows should be finite. 25g a quiver of 25 arrows just like my campfires im forced to use if i want to cast spells

[atomic mountain]

Press R to Reload

[astral tartan]

or keep infinite arrows and meditate, but give clerics a passive spell regen.

[wise wing]

campfires

[autumn fossil]

No clerics must suffer

[atomic mountain]

Exactly. They’re probably gonna work that into replenishing arrows

So just sit back relax breathe and trust in the devs. Their entire goal is fun game

[astral tartan]

oh those things i pay 25g for to play my class past 4 casts? yeah you can pay for arrows brother ill make the suggestion rn actually

[mossy ruin]

If you aren't using Smite + Judgement thats your own problem needing a campfire 😁

[astral tartan]

i retract my clown reaction as this is obviously satire

[atomic mountain]

I’m not assuming anything. But you are you’re jumping to conclusions and saying if this and that and if this and that but you don’t know what they’re gonna do lol

[harsh belfry]

Rangers start with a campfire. Which means they get a free replenish if campfire arrow regen becomes a thing

[atomic mountain]

Speculation is unlimited ammo.

[astral tartan]

why not? i get 4 holy lights then i have to campfire.

[wise wing]

if i cant have unlimited arrows i want to throw unlimited rocks at people lmao

[astral tartan]

as a support i dont have a main damaging weapon, heals are my main contribution and i get 4 of each.

[atomic mountain]

Homie was asking why his suggestion didn’t do well.
We answered him.
Class balance debate and speculation doesn’t really belong here imo

[wise wing]

this whole convo could be for nothing cause if you can pick up arrows then everything else we said is pointless

[atomic mountain]

Yeah but that’s the thing you don’t understand nobody really has a main source of damage other than fists.

[mossy ruin]

Ok so I was joking before BUT, cleric still does a lot more than the holy light and lesser heals. They apply pressure by being a slightly survivable melee combatant or judgement threat. Telling a ranger that his bow should feel like your skill which are spells is not equatable.

[astral tartan]

what about your melee weapon.

[wise wing]

pick up arrows that you shot

[cold condor]

Fists are good enough

[atomic mountain]

You don’t have to use a bow as a ranger
You don’t have to use spells as a wizard
But the Devs have seen fit to make arrows limited
Learn to like it and have fun

[shell vine]

i keep hearing about a ranger quiver change? where are you guys getting this info from?

[mossy ruin]

Wizard is the only class that really needs to replenish his skills to be of any use. Cleric can still do stuff with bonks because he can feel confident with a shield and heavy armor. A wizard can go for dagger/crystal sword, but its not super healthy, just squishy like rogue.

[atomic mountain]

Game is fun. Game is balanced.
Focus on improving what is in your control
Yourself

[amber solstice]

I think most people assume a rapier will be implemented into the starter kit. Spears are incredible, just more difficult to get.

We don't even know if ends up being 500 arrow quivers or you being about to swap to your quiver and reload it separately so that realistically it only adds downtime or anything else that is possibly imaginable.

[mossy ruin]

and a wizard still needs his spells to do this stabby damage, no matter what if wizard is out of spells hes kinda useless

[autumn fossil]

I’m confident that the devs plan is to make is so rangers will run out of ammo, then just die with no way to defend themselves.

[atomic mountain]

Hey whenever Ironmace is hiring you can put in an application to help them save the game they are ruining in your eyes

[astral tartan]

im just saying if other ranged classes are limited why shouldnt ranger be.

[cold condor]

It's a non issue if starting quiver is reasonably large.

[atomic mountain]

Until then wipe the tears and give your keyboard a break

[astral tartan]

how do you figure, a 10 second meditate doesnt really compete with using 1 ability to reload all your arrows endlessly, good rangers dont reload ever.

[harsh belfry]

Wow man, go touch grass. The game is in playtest mode lol. If the change is still here at early access or open beta then yeah you may be on to something but until then just chilllllllll

[mossy ruin]

I agree other ranged classes should be limited, but you were not just saying that, you were saying Cleric only has 4 casts of holy light and after that you are useless. Which is a shame because i dont know how I 1v3 people with MY cleric gameplay if im out of my 'heal other ONLY/damage undead...' spell..

[astral tartan]

whats untrue about it. you'd cry if you had to wait 10 seconds for all your arrows back like a wizard, you'd cry if your only way of getting arrows back was using a campfire like cleric.

give ranger a shitty grey rapier problem solved

[atomic mountain]

Nah fuck that nobody else gets two weapons at the start

[wise wing]

all my skills are ranged so if i have to use a melee weapon against a fighter in full plate that can second wind im dead

[astral tartan]

since you think i should just use my shitty grey mace when i run out of ranged capabilities you can do the same no?

[mossy ruin]

I feel like you are hyperfocus but yeah you don't need to avoid touching grass to be passionate about a game, but rangers need their uptime adjusted, thats all im sure they are doing. Don't worry, itll turn out reasonably im sure, you are expecting a worse case scenario where they ruin ranger, thats silly imo.

[astral tartan]

based ranger 1 track thought process

[atomic mountain]

Did we answer your question titan?

[wise wing]

yeah lmao

[cold condor]

Developers proved their ability to hotfix stuff in a matter of hours, if it's really broken. So I can't see a problem here.

[atomic mountain]

Ok cool beans. We chillin.

[astral tartan]

im not sure what you're even trying to say here. idc what you do in normals. weird flex

[wise wing]

they should just make arrows be able to be picked back up and thats that

[atomic mountain]

And they might we have no idea what they’re gonna do with the finer details

[mossy ruin]

its not a weird flex, you are not helping if you truly think your only use is to heal as a cleric. If you are going to argue and compare stuff, use valid points and dont make equivocal analogies and get defensive when someone points it out.

[atomic mountain]

They haven’t made any major flops with adding new features or game balance where ppl just turned away from the game

[wise wing]

i just dont like them nerfing ranger every playtest lol

[atomic mountain]

I understand the sentiment I don’t like them nerfing wizard every play test but I understand why they have to make adjustments shrug

[autumn fossil]

They should make it so; once you run out of your finite supply of arrows, your lmb becomes a new ability where the ranger curls up into the fetal position and cries. Then a message pops up on the screen reading “ur ass is ded”

[astral tartan]

if you think you're being productive as a cleric running in to melee range instead of anything other than healing in an even fight than you are mistaken sir. in 10/10 situations you would be better off keeping distance and healing/buffing. im aware bonk is neat and fun but at a competitive level cleric dps is extremely circumstantial and literally a last resort, similar to when a ranger engages in melee combat.

[atomic mountain]

Balance will always change, even when the game full releases or 5 years from now

[cold condor]

need to be careful to save one last arrow for yourself

[wise wing]

the only negative thing about the arrow change is for starters

[mossy ruin]

If you can bait a swing from a barbarian or fighter that is relevant, also cleric can run bind to root and enemy for a moment which is relevent in ranger cleric comp. Judgement is relevent, bless is relevent, divine strike is relevent. If you do get a free hit on an enemy because they are out of position and you know how to actually position yourself, thats relevant.

[abstract swallow]

I think you're underselling Cleric's offensive casting, Judgement is absolutely ballistic in geared play and Bind is one of the easiest kill setups there is

[amber solstice]

No one knows what the change is though. It could literally be quiver=4 reloads worth of arrows. Interact with quiver to fletch more arrows. Arrows remain infinite but still limited in a different capacity. Everyone is speculating like they just spend a month testing out the new change.

[astral tartan]

putting yourself in a bad position to potentially bait 1 swing as a healer >

[wise wing]

true

[astral tartan]

and yes, all those spells are relevant, much more so than bonking.

[mossy ruin]

🤔 have skill, you dont have to actually commit to taking a hit, just actually play the game enough and you get a feel for the spacing easily and you just dont get hit

[atomic mountain]

Pgh was part of a top 10 HR team.
I’m saying it for him so he doesn’t have to sound like a douche saying it himself.

[amber solstice]

You really know how to make me start drooling.

[astral tartan]

nobody plays perfectly 100% of the time and theres no reason to risk yourself as a support when your dps are more than capable of doing the same thing more efficiently

[atomic mountain]

🤤

[amber solstice]

Any of my friends that said they'd play cleric would just self buff and try to melee everyone down. Heals were for after the fight was over and you asked them for them at least 3x. lol

[mossy ruin]

Doesn't really matter where you played, if your personal experience is something where you are abusing a specific combination of play like buff spamming a barbarian for him to go kill everyone it doesn't mean the rest of the class still has no use. Just because someone plays the game a lot with other people that play the game a lot does not mean he has knowledge or experience that makes mine invalid in a game that has no ranking system.

[astral tartan]

lol

[mossy plank]

Judgement nuking is always fun

[pallid sleet]

Based opinion, this game IS a footsies based fighting game at the core, spacing is literally everything, including on ranged characters, wizards/ranger play the footsies with like, yards , whereas the melees play it in feet and inches, but everyone is playing footsies in the dungeon, lotsa people dont get that

[astral tartan]

if you wanna walk up and melee instead of healing man go for it. im not saying theres never a time for it, im just saying literally everything in a clerics kit is more beneficial.

[mossy ruin]

Also his original argument which is the root of this conversation is he things Ranger bow is equivalent to Cleric's 4 holy lights, that was HIS direct comparison and that I disagree because cleric has more than just holy light.

[atomic mountain]

👁️💋👁️

[astral tartan]

and ranger has more use than just bow, spear is great !

[pallid sleet]

👁️ 💋 👁️

[astral tartan]

now limit their arrows.

[mossy ruin]

I also agree they should limit their arrows, I just think the comparison was goofy. Also if they limit arrows they can balance the 3 bows better.

[teal apex]

I completely agree with giving ranger a default melee option

[atomic mountain]

Who else should get two weapons?

[astral tartan]

i said 4 each and used holy light as the example. obviously its more than just holy light, the entire point that you missed was im limited on the amount of 'arrows' (spells) i have.

[amber solstice]

My biggest issue with rangers is just the constant barrage of high damage projectiles with basically 0 downtime and lack of counterplayability. However they want to implement a significant downtime after a reasonable number of arrows works for me.

[teal apex]

Doesn't cleric already spawn with 2 weapons? I don't think anyone else needs it at the moment

[mossy ruin]

Well if that was your point then yes I did miss it, in light of being defensive I would like to think your point was poorly conveyed.

[amber solstice]

I think crystal ball+quarterstaff would be a very nice upgrade to wizard starter kit.
Lets them buy or find rondels, doesn't give them BIS spellbooks, and gives them a decent melee option.

[cold condor]

magic staff counts as a weapon, but only technically

[atomic mountain]

Yes clerics do. I guess my question would be what other damage centric class, should get two?

[astral tartan]

mmmmmmmmmmm fair

[mossy ruin]

I think thats goofy, might as well have them start with dagger+orb, or best option, just buff quarterstaff so it doesnt feel so F WORD awful

[verbal marsh]

would be cool if rapier didnt have an attack, and forced you to parry to counter attack or speed boost.

[teal apex]

Personally I don't think any others need it (maybe wizard? did not play it much). I am all down for letting people pick their starting weapon though

[pallid sleet]

Rapier is my favorite weapon 😭

[mossy ruin]

Like the staff will always be worse than book since book has base spell power per tier of quality, staff should just be a cleaner cast and WHY DOES IT BONK, ive also book bonked a few times on like railings and walls, grrr and I guess its not 'book' but 'palm bonk'

[atomic mountain]

If everybody should starts with two weapons I’m with you. Give the Ranger a rapier. Otherwise no

[verbal marsh]

I find it boring

[amber solstice]

I do agree that it's goofy. But it kind of fits a good middle ground in what it actually gives them. Medium spell cast speed, have to swap to melee weapon to melee. But easily upgradable with an 8g rondel or 11g spellbook. The magic staff is just so heinously bad is probably the bigger issue. But without adjusting it, crystal ball+qstaff seems nice.

[pallid sleet]

Don't use it then lol, weapon feels so damn good

[verbal marsh]

its overpowered, and underpowered at same time. Somewhat balanced but absolutely boring.

[amber solstice]

High end rogues with rapier are absolute gods. Most rogues just have no idea how to use it properly.

[astral tartan]

i think giving ranged classes that can run out of ranged projectiles/spells a melee weapon makes sense. as is, rangers dont need a melee weapon, if arrows get limited than it would be a lot easier to argue they should have one.

[mossy ruin]

Yeah ranger could totally start with a sword or some shit

[atomic mountain]

Then give my wizard a better melee weapon dang it Pgh

[verbal marsh]

bacause you need gear for it to be effective, to which case other classes have better kits then rapier since its under powered for their class.

[stark rain]

.shortinfo 1644448 Y'all have any thoughts on this?

[eager sable]

Suggestion from valgrindfailed#8886

[Consider switching the Francisca axe's on-hit effect from a movement debuff to either a ~.5 second move speed increase or a short shove like the Unique longbow. Think about what happens when something is hit by a heavy object: it gets jolted in the opposite direction. The barb now needs to decide if he want to potentially give his target more distance before spamming Franciscas.]

Opinion:

-1

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1644448 | Submitted at · Mar 6, 2023, 7:15 PM

[teal apex]

Why? Seems arbitrary. The class balance is more complex than just "if he gets one I should get one". Lots of classes spawn with consumables, and several have core parts of their balance built on something consumable (fighter heal, cleric spells). All of these are class by class basis, however, it makes a lot of sense for classes who ARE largely balanced around a consumable ability to still function at a basic level without it (cleric spawning with a melee weapon)

[mossy ruin]

rapier has waaay superior spacing than daggers, and if you slow swing and break combo the initial swing is super spammable and its a headshot MAGNET

[amber solstice]

I don't even think it needs gear. It's all about footwork and technique. It's meant for dancing in and out of range and slowly dismantling your opponent and and not just W-key+stab until dead. I've been absolutely embarrassed by good rogues with rapiers. Most of them just W key in a straight line and get clapped.

[mossy ruin]

Yeah, the nice thing is, with crossbow you can just hold it out and people will try to dodge the shot but you can gain real distance on a player by pretending to shoot I cant wait for that shit

[verbal marsh]

yeah cause rogue starts with 30 agi making their ms speed effective with it, while other classes are better off with an arming sword since they are not receiving much of damage from it. It works for rogue since they're going to get 1 shot either way if they cant dance correctly. -When I said gear I meant classes other then rogue.

[atomic mountain]

Their main use for most Barbs is to slow enemies down. The dmg is kinda busted and will be tuned down. Maybe equip speed for utility items will get adjusted too.
Once that happens they are perfect imo

[atomic mountain]

Well as we’ve already seen they intend on giving the rogue more of a reliable ranged option so if rangers want a more reliable Melee option it would just make sense to also give wizards a more reliable melee option (as part of starting kit)

Does it not?

[teal apex]

Yeah I have no issue with that

[mossy ruin]

I saw Fighter is getting more perks, but like, ranger needs to be expanded as well. Honestly ranger should have more than just spear mastery if you take the bow from ranger they dont have a lot of class options left

[atomic mountain]

Ok, we are all on the same team 🙂

[mossy ruin]

Is there even a 2nd skill that isn't bow/cross bow related? I only know of eat food

[astral tartan]

if rangers got a starting melee option right now with arrows still being unlimited, it would make sense for wizard to get one as well. if arrows end up being limited while wizards can still meditate endlessly, i would argue the ranger is more deserving of the melee option.

[mossy plank]

Wizards do have one it's just really rubbish

[verbal marsh]

rangers have their fist, who said every class doesnt have melee options?

[mossy ruin]

Fist is bad lets be real

[astral tartan]

also true, as is the wizard has the most love! melee and endless ranged!!!!

[rancid pebble]

fists can smack

[mossy plank]

Wizards staff can melee

[verbal marsh]

I punched more players to death then used weapons lol.

[mossy plank]

It's really crap but ignite can buff it.

[mossy ruin]

well sure, it can be fun and you are faster, but its not relevant for trying to kill the monsters in the dungeon

[astral tartan]

crap > nothing

[verbal marsh]

neither is playing a rogue though.

[mossy ruin]

rogue kills monsters in dungeon alright, what you mean?

[verbal marsh]

so do my fists. wdym?

[cold condor]

It would be cool for rangers to have roundhouse kick. But that will surely be too OP

[mossy ruin]

I am going to stop responding to this, you seem like you want to make a point or entrap me, im not interested in this. I played a lot of solo rogue.

[verbal marsh]

I punched a lot of solo rogues.

If you didn't get one shot by my mace in response to backstabbing me you got punched down when you turned to run.

[atomic mountain]

Don’t break up with me now mister
I’m still trying to advocate for you
at minimum
A butter knife

[verbal marsh]

Maybe i was too harsh on rapier, I'll give it a 2nd chance next playtest when I play rogue.

[mossy ruin]

a lot of classes have a few options, personally I feel like wizard just goes book. I dislike this, if im out of books i settle for dagger + orb, I kinda feel like they should just remove wizard staff and lets us start with a baby crystal sword

[verbal marsh]

Crystal sword was op this playtest but noone use its funny enough

[atomic mountain]

Real ones do 😉

[mossy ruin]

How was it overpowered? Its cast speed and swing speed are slow no?
Did it scale well with high will?

[verbal marsh]

spell + phy power add to it, and gear was way overtuned to make it into a oneshot weapon easily with green blue gear.

[mossy ruin]

ah I see, hmm, did any fighter use it 🤔 lol

[atomic mountain]

None of the weapons are really OP
in the wizards kit
They all have their trade-offs
and pros and cons
but the staff is just dog shit
Staff needs dmg imo
(It should be the highest spell dmg, but slowest casting) it’s already awkward af

[mossy ruin]

yuck, trying to make insta cast skill more common? 😱

[verbal marsh]

I use staff often just to break barrels

[mossy ruin]

Yeah, the staff recovery speed is fast actually, if you slam it into a wall, but its combo swings or end lag is soooo long

[verbal marsh]

I also dont use crystal ball because I dont like being visible in the dark so I use spellbook.

I do think staves should grant spell power in addition since they've slower cast animation then book, and less phy damage then dagger or sword. Would gladly trade 5-10 phy dmg on staff for spell power

[atomic mountain]

How would you all like to see guilds work?
A video I saw brought up the idea of a guild stash

[verbal marsh]

Think they should make some default faction guild, and then guilds. Players who go in dungeon gain guild standing by defeating enemy faction players and lose guild standing defeating allies. Which would drawl people to leave starter guild and play as friendlies toward fellow starter guild players should they never leave.

[atomic mountain]

Factions? Like NPC factions?

[stray saffron]

i do hope there won't be any indication inside the dungeon they're inside your guild tho, last you need is either groups of 9 ganging up on you cause they can see they're the same guild.

[verbal marsh]

Probably just Chaos and Order for starts, and then all players being apart of Lord Britishes Army or Blackthorn's with the option to join player guilds instead. ofc dont name them that sure Origin would sue lol.

[atomic mountain]

I think guild alliances and faction wars could be cool. In the distant future.
I was just referring to player guilds without any systems around that. Just a collection of players who play together and support each other through that, and maybe share gear or trade etc

[verbal marsh]

If there is no system there is no system lol.

[atomic mountain]

Something simple like that would be possible though, in the near future.

[verbal marsh]

simple isnt necessarily good. people just start wanting things. I would rather just have a friends list then a guild system with no function.

[mossy ruin]

I would probably end up quitting if there was guild stash, not right away, but games with that usually have auxiliary gameplay loops that support a guild stash and those features ruin games for me personally. Like GvG

[verbal marsh]

I'm not a fan of the trading hall at all. I would rather two players have to go into practice area and drop it on ground lol.

Would rather have a 32 players town hall where people just socialize and bs and drop crap on the ground to trade.

[proud tinsel]

A guild stash is hardly different then trading, you just save 30g per trade if you can stash it instead I forget how big the trade window is but if you new the full stash/full trade how much would it cost you at 30g per trade to trade a full stash worth it cant be that much

I honestly see guilds being more just of a friends list though but I could be wrong

I guess also to balance a guild stash they could put a tax on taking stuff out

[astral tartan]

i am on board with any increase to stash size, guild or individual

[atomic mountain]

What are other games have you guys played with guilds in them? What did you like and didn’t like?

[proud tinsel]

I have never played a game like DaD before at all, so just typical MMOs

[astral tartan]

albion guild banks were sick but i played in a small group of friends who all trusted each other. had your own island where you could meet up

[proud tinsel]

ahh yeah I did play some albion

[astral tartan]

wouldnt it be nice to log in and your boys have a kit put together for you in the guild bank

[proud tinsel]

Something like that would be super cool but I would think the dev time to do something that in depth would be significant, but as stated previously I have no fking clue about anything game development wise

[verbal marsh]

Honestly think it would be cool if they just went the shadowbane route with guilds.

[proud tinsel]

Never played how does it work?

[astral tartan]

what did shadowbane do, never played it

[atomic mountain]

(In WoW we had a guild bank and a trustee but there wasn’t much trading going on between players)

[verbal marsh]

Guilds were required for everyone and you started in one ruled by the npcs.

[astral tartan]

i mean realistically our 3 man is constantly moving kits and gear for each other between mules, all a guild bank would do is allow for us to manage inventories quicker and get back to playing the game quicker.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah and I think anything to do with a guild should probably be focused on encouraging p2p interaction whilst keeping you in the dungeon for as much % time as possible (I think that’s where the main appeal of the game is)

[astral tartan]

id spend extra $ for a guild bank/increased stash size. just like tarkov

that would be the one thing i wouldn't bat an eye at honestly, and skele skins

[atomic mountain]

I’d imagine if they did something like that it would be very costly but would be done with In game currency

[astral tartan]

i mean tarkov does it perfectly, increased stash size early in for the people that spent the money, but still obtainable through just playing the game.

[verbal marsh]

Can just have the players who murder guild mates get thrown into an opposing guild that freely murders.

Then just have guild base starter gear, starting town gets base gear, murder guild has something else, and player guilds can custom. Then a Guild vendor that sells optional tabards with guild logo's, so people can loot and fake their affiliations as well.

[atomic mountain]

All that sounds like way too much if I’m being honest.

[verbal marsh]

whatever they're likely to do is more then that lol

[deep kindle]

how do i play the open beta?

[atomic mountain]

#📢announcements

[rancid pebble]

there will be a public playtest, not a beta, on apr 14. Early access is SOON TO FOLLOW

[deep kindle]

ok thanks

[verbal marsh]

Only been impressed with very few guild systems, UO and shadowbane namely.

Albion's little guild storage and isle system were lame I was not impressed.

[mossy ruin]

Guild use from other games doesnt translate the same, WoW useses the guild bank, or should, to store stuff they need to do the content they work towards as a guild, like raiding for example they stack up materials for crafting gear or enchants for raiders. Also many expansions had big long term requirements and they would funnel one player stuff for him to get a reward.

[verbal marsh]

If they add guild banks it should be a storage every player in the guild spawns when they go into a match that a random rogue can steal from.

It'd be a chest you'd have to defend everytime you go into a match else your junk is gone.

[mossy ruin]

In Dark and Darker if we had guilds the best system I can think of personally just out of nowhere right now is a system that tracks individual player actions like an in guild leaderboard. Guilds can compete on a guild leaderboards and compete for best guild(kinda lame imo but its lines up with already in place systems). Also guilds can have perks for the players INSIDE the guild depending on the level of the guild. One perk could be a character in the guild can have a bigger stash, or reset merchants faster etc etc but if its a GUILD stash, that would suck imo.

[verbal marsh]

Arche Age guilds were borderline okay as well.

[mossy ruin]

so you are one of the few remaining trolls from last post playtest, I thought they all kinda fizzled out.

[verbal marsh]

I'm more of an Ogre.

[amber solstice]

It's really hard to imagine implementing anything beside in game guild chat would actually be a net benefit to the game. Mostly just snowball winners win harder mechanics and advantages. Guilds can be great in MMOs, but with all the hardcore limitations and restrictions on a personal level, guilds can be quite a scary thing to implement. Guild banks, guilds queuing up at the same time to stack lobbies, perks of any sort, feeling like you are being forced into a guild to play at an even level.

[verbal marsh]

Probably best. Leaderboards only show guild member positions; No more public leaderboards. Individual stats should be added. Players in Guilds being able to compete should be more then sufficient, and stats could easily reset every week and record previous weeks champion for ongoing in-guild competition.

[mossy ruin]

Yes, exactly this, thats what I meant by auxiliary features that go in line with guilds would probably make me frustrated and end up quitting. I happened in Albion for me, because I was looking for a more ganking style of game. I heard after I quit they introduced more small party/solo content but I already had a bad taste in my mouth.

Also I still cant stand the present leaderboards being extremely weighted towards playtime. I really hope they introduce more ratio based leaderboards :(

[verbal marsh]

Yeah I like your idea other then giving them boosts and rewards. If they were to receive any reward it would be just to add guild tabards in-game that players can wear to show their colors.

[verbal marsh]

they added the solo portals, and removed the low sec ganking which is mostly what I did lol

[mossy ruin]

what is low sec

[verbal marsh]

areas with group dungeons

[mossy ruin]

ah, like dungeon busting i think was the term i heard, i thought it was cool and fun, but it was kinda out of hand when they game first opened

[verbal marsh]

I had already quit before they made changes but thats what I heard as well.

I didn't tend to dungeon bust, usually killed parties before they went into them or after they came out lol, felt that dungeon busting was poor sport to interrupt.

now if you got a guy who wiped running back leading me to you thats a diff story.

So I think I like that guild suggestion the most in combination to leaderboards, just have it only display your own status until you join a guild to compare to others. Can ditch the entire high roller leaderboard concept and have Guilds operate their own with in-game functions. Grant a Guild vendor that sells custom tabards, shields, or flags players can lose. Then if the lobby is stacked with a guild you may be able to tell by their coat of arms, unless they just lose so often people are mocking them.

Could add guild wars where it tracks which guilds is defeating which the most also. Defeated by the most and Defeated the most would be interesting quota's.

[lusty wren]

You could blueprint it in about an hour 😄

[lusty wren]

Perfect? Id say its the opposite 😄

Not only is my stash bigger than yours cus I paid more but I can also shove more stuff up my bum than you.

If we get stash increases should be done in game only

[astral tartan]

im cool with whatever, as long as bigger stash is the result

[proud tinsel]

yeah it would be very pay to win

[lusty wren]

I like finite storage. I hope they keep it roughly where its at now. I think the decision making is part of the fun.

[astral tartan]

not really pay to win, an increased stash size doesnt exactly give you an advantage. paying for QOL

[lusty wren]

Having more availability of holding onto gear 100% gives you an advantage

[proud tinsel]

def an advantage

[astral tartan]

the decision making is do i want to spend 2 minutes xfering this gear over to a mule or do i want to sell it for a discounted price to get it out of my inventory asap

[lusty wren]

Where as you can still pull fresh kits from your stash my low paying ass cannot

[proud tinsel]

and if you're a market player you can stock up during the week and exploit the weekend

[lusty wren]

You are engaging with gold sinks in both of these scenarios, the other you bypass these gold sinks completely.

[astral tartan]

i dont mind alt accounts for increased inventory space either, i just wish stashs were account wide so i didnt need a friend to move loot to an alt.

but its honestly not a bad little money sink, if you want extra stash space you gotta pay the trade fees which add up quickly

[lusty wren]

Yes they do, and gold sinks are needed

Just allowing people to bypass these sinks with guild storage is counter productive

[atomic mountain]

As long as it’s something that you can grind in game and you don’t have to pay real money for it it’s not really pay to win

[proud tinsel]

You could just gold sink the guild stash, x gold per slot put in or taken out

[lusty wren]

You get a direct advantage from day 1 of the wipe/launch. (if you can purchase stash with better editions as the premise was)

[atomic mountain]

And they’ve already confirmed that they plan on making stash changes to essentially increase the space with said changes lol

[astral tartan]

the fee doesnt bother me as much as the time it takes to move everything, im okay with the fees and it being a money sink.

[proud tinsel]

What is it for tarkov like 140 bucks for the big stash?

[lusty wren]

And they have also said they want it to remain finite and full of decisions. Point? 😄

[atomic mountain]

I didn’t say nothing about that dude what are you talking about

[proud tinsel]

Yeah he gave examples of gold chests though

[lusty wren]

a paid for advantage is typically called P2W which you said it was not 😄

[atomic mountain]

They said they wanted to remain limited rather than unlimited. They never said they’re not going to make changes to it

Proxy please scroll up and read what I said bro please
You’re confusing me with somebody else

[lusty wren]

This is patently false. Because even if you can grind for it if others get it day one with CASH its an advantage

[proud tinsel]

@atomic mountainthey gave examples though they did not say you pay 120$ instead of 30 and you get 4x the stash size

[atomic mountain]

I didn’t say anything about that being some thing you need to pay real money for

[proud tinsel]

Which I would totally do 120$ means nothing to me and thats a huge advantage in extra storage

[astral tartan]

this conversation is going to dilute to everyones definition of p2w vs pay for advantage

[lusty wren]

Which is why its best to keep to the OG vision and not have pay for in game advantages 😄

[proud tinsel]

I think pay to advantage is pay to win

[lusty wren]

The vast majority from my experience agree with you

[proud tinsel]

What if its just a cash shop with consumables and like xp pots thats nothing you cant just get from grinding <edited in case taken out of context, this would be a HUGE problem>

[astral tartan]

for me p2w is something that directly gives you an advantage in pvp

[lusty wren]

Being able to hold onto more good gear means you have more raids that you can be fully equipped ala you have an advantage that those who did not pay for dont

[proud tinsel]

A bigger storage is a an advantage in pvp, ranger being so good in pve is an advantage in pvp

It does not have to be direct to be a HUGE problem

[astral tartan]

what is stopping someone from making a mule though and not spending any money?

all the gear in the world doesnt matter if you go in and int every match. i have the same outlook on rmt, you can buy the racecar doesnt mean you can drive it.

[proud tinsel]

It does cost you money to transfer to the toon unless you triangle trade it and then its risking losing it

[lusty wren]

In a game where TTK can radically change based on gear its for sure an advantage going from grey weapon that cant one shot anything to one shotting everything you come across 😄

[atomic mountain]

It does give you an advantage but I think the issue arises when it’s something you can ONLY pay real world money for.
If it’s something that you can grind for or pay for that essentially comes down to time efficiency.
However I don’t think something like that is very likely even though it’s something I personally don’t have a problem with because they’ve said that they don’t want anything that even smells like P2W

[proud tinsel]

If i buy the race car im going to beat every ford focus on the road even if i suck at driving

[astral tartan]

just playing devils advocate, let my children live!!

[proud tinsel]

costs you gold i should say

[lusty wren]

This also seems to go against the foundation of what the devs want for their game. They specifically stated they want nothing that can be misconstrued as P2W in any form

[atomic mountain]

Yeah that’s what I said in the last sentence

[proud tinsel]

NO Pgh you're opinions on this alpha game have sealed the fate of your children!

[astral tartan]

lmaoo

[astral tartan]

i like this

[proud tinsel]

I don't even need the race car i can do it in my R8

[astral tartan]

built not bought !

[proud tinsel]

Shit I can barely build a computer and that's just a simple lego set

[signal iris]

I say you should be able to spend real money to get a single cast of Power Word:Death that automatically kills any player near you. Usable by any class, this seems reasonable.

[astral tartan]

this is a great idea, and if you spend more money you get a 2nd swd so you have an advantage over the other whales

largest bank account wins just like irl

[signal iris]

And even more money to get resistance to the abilities lesser whales pay for.

This is called a compelling gameplay loop, fun for at least one guy.

[astral tartan]

i think it would b rly cool if like when u killed someone right, a little message with their steam info pops up and you win their steam acct

but if u die they get ur steam acct and u have to rebuy dark and darker

[atomic mountain]

Ayo

[astral tartan]

lookin @ the juicy CS players

[tall eagle]

wow

[cursive kayak]

did they say they are going to make a change to rangers?

i keep seeing people talking about a arrow test

[amber solstice]

In the QnA with sdf, he said they are implementing a quiver and arrow system.

[atomic mountain]

https://youtu.be/8De7R2pMWRg
This is a good video summarizing the Q&A.
Other than this they clarified that they don’t want arrows to be in infinite resource. That’s all we know rt now

[primal spindle]

Maybe if limited arrows rangers can get stronger arrows- maybe. Unique ones with special effects. It might not all be negative!

[pseudo mirage]

So many people hate this arrow change but it’s probably not that big a deal at all. You’ll probably have a quiver of 15-20 arrows and you’ll be able to find more and throughout the dungeon just like traps. Perhaps even stocking more quivers with more arrows in inventory just like everyone else has to do for throwing knives and throwing axes. It’s just to cover infinite arrows for team fights that last a long time when no one else casting spells or throwing things can have infinite things to throw or cast

At least without meditation or searching the dungeon for more stuff

[atomic mountain]

Yeah I’m sure it’ll be fun

[proud tinsel]

@pseudo mirageIt triggers me when people say change, Yes its new to us but its not a change to the game its part of the design philosophy and was talked about in an interview in november of last year.

[pseudo mirage]

Agreed. The game will continue to be designed upon and different things implemented throughout the life of the game. Making “adjustments” along the way is what they have said they plan to do in the name of making a fun game and not making tons of money off of people

It’s changed from the last play test is all I’m saying

[wintry wind]

I think they'll find some good way to balance it. I'm excited to see what they come up with

[proud tinsel]

@pseudo mirage no you were not an offender just used you as an opportunity' to get the word out

[rough gorge]

good to know quiver's can hold up to 60 arrows (Babylonian) up to 40 (Roman) and 14~16 century English carried up to 24 arrows also known as a sheaf

[mossy ruin]

I see the intelligent suggestions have arrived, I have no ability to add to such grand ideas
🤯

[proud tinsel]

My f150 holds tons of mixed ammo

actually it only holds like 1/2 a ton

I over sold it

[signal iris]

I agree not everything needs to be meta, something’s need to be situational, but have the potential for really good stories. (At suggestion)

[amber solstice]

Basically everything in the game right now is a "playable placeholder" until they get the entire game sorted out.

[proud tinsel]

yup

and you may not like where your favorite class now lands

[mossy ruin]

Luckily I think all the classes are fun, mwahaha

[proud tinsel]

I did not have fun playing wizard but I did not give it much of a chance, after seeing people play it well it seems kinda fun

[wintry wind]

I think Pick Pocket being bad and memey is fine, just so long as it isn't limiting Rogue in an arbitrary way. Like if all classes only had 10 Perks they could ever have, and one of Rogue's was Pick Pocket, that'd suck that they have effectively have one less option compared to other classes.

If that's not a risk, then I frankly don't have strong feelings on it

[amber solstice]

The only thing I cant get over with spellcasters is the pie wheel clicking of spells. Wizard and cleric would be a lot more fun for me if there was a keybind option.

[south pelican]

tbh all classes r fine as they r now so i would like to see what they change

[amber solstice]

I wonder if quivers end up having a movement speed penalty...

[proud tinsel]

@proud tinselyes thank you, its clunky and i did not like it, i could get better at it and it would be more fun but I will never like that

[atomic mountain]

Yeah idk. You think it’s possible they’ll be made to be weapon slotted items?

[proud tinsel]

I don't know, the thing I like the least about it which no ranger has brought up, but I don't like that it dilutes the loot pool and now im pulling arrows out of vases instead of an epic ring

I will rage and part of my soul will die

[atomic mountain]

We have no idea how the system will work.
All we know is arrows will be made non-infinite.

[amber solstice]

They can definitely do it. Make bows mainhand and make quiver offhand. Different sizes with different move speed. Or even stats.
They could make it a belt slot item. And you interact with it to fletch.
It could just be in your bag and you draw from it.
They really can go any way they want with it.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah that’s sounds intriguing. I could definitely see how the pros/cons system could work with them in that way. 🤔 different move speed, reload speed, carry capacity.

[proud tinsel]

I think the ranger loyalists are taking a short term view of it. Its going to allow the devs to do some pretty cool shit in the future

[atomic mountain]

I could see how that would add some variety and depth with player choices

They plan on adding a ton more weapons and armor and all kinds of stuff to give lots of player choice

[pallid lichen]

.shortinfo 1644986

[eager sable]

Suggestion from Zweihander#3168

Keep pickpocket bad, not everything has to be meta, pickpocket being bad allows cool interaction between players and less people suspect it and besides who wants there items randomly stolen by an invisible rouge

Opinion:

+6

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1644986 | Submitted at · Mar 6, 2023, 11:34 PM

[pallid lichen]

pickpocketing people while invisible should never be in the game. but intentionally leaving a useless perk useless isnt the solution either. @blazing mesa

[verbal marsh]

what if bard ends up just being a rogue option hrm

they would've april fooled you into thinking no bard was coming

[karmic forge]

I was watching the LOTR trilogy and thought that it might be cool to give the archer class a melee stab with the arrows... maybe just with a lil less damage?

[atomic mountain]

Actually. In the Q&A sdf said he was interested in allowing rogues to pickpocket while invisible. 🤔

[pallid lichen]

yeah i know. sadly

[atomic mountain]

It’s fine

[amber solstice]

Yeah, no one enjoys being nerfed. No one wants to have a weak class. I played enough League of Legends to have my favorite champ or playstyle nerfed or reworked out of existing on a regular basis.

They've been saying they still need to balance ranger since before I started playing. At least for me, ranger always felt absolutely disgustingly easy and overpowered compared to all the other classes. It's the reason why I mained it my first playtest. I struggled quite a bit on every other class and ranger just felt like, oops I win. A lot of people love that feeling more than anything. It's the same reason why cheaters cheat and people smurf. Some people just want to dominate and succeed. The faster and easier the more satisfying. For me, it got very boring. But I like to be challenged. Some people don't. It shows with how hard they are fighting against something that they don't even know what it is yet. The devs didnt say we are absolutely demolishing rangers, better find something else to play. Lol

[atomic mountain]

The only people who can’t tolerate nerfs or buffs are people who can only one trick.

[mossy ruin]

They could buff all bows with a reduction in MS penalty equal to the new quiver penalty and suddenly its k.

[proud tinsel]

@pallid lichenwhy should that not be in the game?

[atomic mountain]

That does sound cool, maybe as a perk

[proud tinsel]

pickpocketing while invis should be in the game imo its super risky vs reward which is what games should be all about

[pallid lichen]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[karmic forge]

yeah that would probably be a pretty good perk

[proud tinsel]

I thought you were saying being able to pick pocket while hidden was bad

[pallid lichen]

you want to lower the risk i advocate for upping the reward. the risk of pickpocketing is what makes it trhrilling. the difficulty is what engages people to the perk. removing that is the wrong move. also making the perk reliant on hide, is also bad for promoting creativity.

alos getting pickpocketed by someone who is invisble doesnt feel as fair as gettign pickpocketted by somone who actually had to postion himself well to do it.

[verbal marsh]

hide is primary staple of rogue; it is equiv to not taking spellcasting, or not taking second wind or field rations or rage...

[proud tinsel]

Pick pocketing while invis is risky because there is a good chance they notice something is gone and if its something good they are gonna come looking for you

I still would not take it because why not just kill em

[mossy ruin]

its the fun factor, no one argues pickpocket is a good option

[proud tinsel]

My point, its for the memes which is not for me, I would just end up pick pocketing my team the whole time

[pallid lichen]

it currrentyl feels that way and it shouldnt. i advocate for buffing its other skills so that hide dosne feel as neccessary.

we shouldnt buff weak perks around a specifc skill. it just hinders creativity and puts a band aid on the issue.

[verbal marsh]

I will when i steal everything then run away and drop a smoke bomb while fencing down anyone crazy eonugh to chase me.

[pallid lichen]

the vast majority of people wont notice their loot being taken.

[proud tinsel]

Hide is class defining and honestly should be a perk where if you are crouching you are hidden and not a skill at all but I'm not a dev so I don't get to make such choices

[atomic mountain]

Sounds like we’ll see more funny moments in the dungeon imo

[mossy ruin]

I agree, but I would notice

[verbal marsh]

dont need hide if you're stealing from your allies.

[proud tinsel]

@pallid lichen the vast majority of <bad> players wont notice.

[pallid lichen]

the perk is currently only useful from stealing from allies. that issue should be solved.

i simply advocate for buffing the amount or value of loot you get from it. as well as giving it a unique interaction animation.

this chnage would make the reward more comparable to the risk required. and will make the perk less OP for stealing from allies.

[pallid lichen]

most people walking past a door arent going to notice they are getting robbed by an invisible rogue.

[proud tinsel]

So you're saying most people are bad

[verbal marsh]

he's a rogue main; he just wants to be op.

[pallid lichen]

most people arent suspicious of every door they walk past is what im saying

[proud tinsel]

Umm idk what my main will be this pt prolly ranger for mining

As far as PP goes I can't see any scenario where I will take it

[pallid lichen]

are u trolling. im advocating for them not to make pickpocket work during hide?

[analog sedge]

so how are rangers going to work? are they going to get like 100 arrows or soemthing

[proud tinsel]

I'm sure hes goofing ya bro

[atomic mountain]

We don’t know

[verbal marsh]

my guess is consumable item stack like throwing weapons. would make most sense since it would display on your belt.

[proud tinsel]

We don't know yet I'm sure between now and PT5 we will get more details

[verbal marsh]

personally I would rather just get rid of pickpocket and have something like nimble hands; preform lockpick when opening boxes and loot it without opening or making a sound, fail during the pick and it opens normally unless the box is locked. to where 2nd picking is the nimble.

[mossy ruin]

Yeah i suggested quiet opening as a buff to lockpick perk months ago

[verbal marsh]

that would be fun its a good idea lol, just not for doors.

[mossy ruin]

with reduced open time and a hotkey, but its not here yet

[subtle jackal]

is the suggester bot just stuffed?

[atomic mountain]

yeah the Bot might be down. Did you try to put a suggestion in and it didn’t work?

[subtle jackal]

I haven't seen a single suggestion work in days lol

[atomic mountain]

There’s been quite a few going up the last one I saw submit it was at 8:05 PM and it’s 8:50

[sonic pendant]

#buffrangers https://i.imgur.com/6hUK6ki.jpg

[proud tinsel]

Rangers will need buffs sadly after the rash of nerfs they are about to get

[abstract swallow]

as long as Rangers have full hitstun on shots they will remain equal to Wizards as the true skillcap gods

[still zenith]

Before I suggest it, I was realizing it may already be a thing. Does anyone know if Mummies have Bandages as a possible secondary loot roll?

[abstract swallow]

bandages are on the mummy drop table, you might be able to check the old datamined tables off the wiki

[halcyon crescent]

thoughts on some sort of bounty system? there is an "Outlaw Killer" category in the leaderboard, perhaps some sort of reward for taking out players after they rack up a certain amount of kills in a single life

[pure summit]

Can someone explain to me why the community doesn't want even a slight MMR system?

People aren't even good at the game yet, imagine how hard it would be to get new players to play if everyone has played for a year and has 95% dmg reduction, fight nearly perfectly, and optimized their map pathing to hunt down the whole map of players as efficiently as possible. - I think this shows that the community isn't thinking long term for this game. - Convince me I'm wrong, please.

The way I see it, a MMR system of some kind HAS to be added at some point, otherwise this game will become completely unapproachable

[abstract swallow]

there's two issues with an MMR system

1. if visible/transparent it promotes tweaking your score to have the easiest lobbies to stomp
2. if invisible, it basically generates a negative feedback loop for progression/gear escalation
   it's also largely unnessecary because the more feature-complete the game becomes the more it will tax punching-down and promote self-selecting into appropriately geared content

[pure summit]

For #1, you admit that stomping lobbies is a problem, however that is what we have with no MMR system. Isn't it better to have people who want to stomp lobbies go through the trouble of tweaking their score a bunch just to do this? Also you can combat this with not negating score for obvious manipulation

[abstract swallow]

having tweaked lobbies is worse than having potentially stomped lobbies, as those individuals will be encountering overall weaker lobbies more consistently-- as it is now there is the risk of running into a bigger fish that seeks to head deeper into the dungeon

[pure summit]

BTW, I don't necessarily mean the run of the mill MMR system, this could also include storage value, and other equations that could give a better picture of the full player skill that can't be manipulated

[abstract swallow]

possible, but the more you obscure it the more you fall into category #2 of "I got over the starter hump and am now sucking and getting railed like a vaccuum cleaner in a frat dorm"

[pure summit]

I think a tweaked lobby (or twink) would be much more managable than a full 3-man who plays perfectly. If you involve other mechanics like the highest MMR on your team is the MMR you queue into, then it makes all 3 have to Twink at the same time, which is kind of dumb since nobody is going to have gear.

[pure summit]

For #2, this can be solved by having MMR modifiers

Loss streaks, low vault value, etc. can jump your MMR down, since the problem then becomes if you're high MMR and you lose all your stuff, how are you going to compete

[still zenith]

I can't speak for the community, but I can say a few things about an MMR system from my perspective as a community member. The uber chads already ostracize themselves to High Roller, and most Normal games have 1-2 gamers / groups of gamers on average. With an even easier floor yet to be added, the player base will only naturally spread themselves out further by skill level, and as a result of these factors, there will be plenty of room for everyone to enjoy mixed lobbies for some time to come without the need for an MMR system and some of the problems it creates.

I think diversity in lobbies is important to the health of the game. You end up with a better sense of a larger community by playing with a larger possible pool of people who are more inclusively representative of the population as a whole. New players get to see a glimpse of the potential of their and other classes, while midrange gamers have a chance to stand out with their somewhat established skills, but remain humble in their endeavor when presented with those real gamers runnin' around. And again, the uber chads'll be in HR anyway.

It's also still in testing, of course, and if we eventually are to need some sort of system, that time would come down the road a bit, yeah?

[pure summit]

Like you say, if there is a easier floor, it might be better. HOWEVER, it MUST be much less pvp oriented. MMR is for PVP, not floor level.

[pure summit]

As for a sense of community, the MMR system will act as a guide, but not make you wait for a long time, it'll stretch parameters when there isn't enough players, so it'll feel exactly the same

[forest turtle]

It's an extraction based game, mmr is a stupid idea. If the game is not for you then it's not for you. Not all games can be for everyone.

[pure summit]

Also, just for if we need a system now, I believe it should be tested in the next playtest before early access. The player retention this last playtest was pretty bad

[pure summit]

If the game is for you, then you should care about keeping players. Games die pretty easily nowadays

I don't actually care, cause I'm pretty good at the game and have a good 3 man

I'm just looking at the data from the last playtest

[amber solstice]

MMR gets better the less variables you have. One of the prime examples is chess. One person vs one person in a very defined setting. The more variables, the worse it gets.

So the more players, mobs, environmental factors, and random elements that a game has, which Dark and Darker has in multitudes, the less successful it is at actually matching like player vs like player.

MMR based matchmaking tries to remove variability from the game so everyone is exactly the same skill level and you essentially only experience that specific skill level of game play until you intentionally game the system, or miraculously become a significantly better player. This promotes staleness in a game based around exciting risk and reward. Basically every element of the game is an attempt to create excitement.

If you know which map you are going to play, who you are going to fight against, what loot you are going to find, remove all environment factors, basically remove any and all variability from the game, what are you actually left with? You are essentially removing every single game system they have and there is no game left.

The big and obvious downside is that being the worst sucks. Losing every fight and never escaping every single game for as long as you play the game feels bad and means this is probably the wrong genre for you. Luckily, it's basically impossible to be that bad unless you have some sort of mental deficit or are under the effect of cognitive suppressing drugs. That being said, just playing isn't always enough. Sometimes you need to put some effort into seeing what you can do better and improve.

TLDR; MMR is for fair games. This game isn't fair on purpose.

[still zenith]

They've alluded to spawns being farther apart outside of testing, and to a Forest map. Perhaps 1F is Forest, spread out spawns, less likely to have PvP, and if you so choose to opt into B1 by way of an entrance, that's where you'll encounter more PvP in those early goings. Just speculation though.

[forest turtle]

Good games doesn't die because garbage matchmaking and hard gameplay that scares new player with skill issue
Source : dota, a game with hundres of heroes and multiple abilities for each and hundres of items

Mmr on extraction game will only lead to farming loot abuse and trade abuse

You are asking for oppinion yet you are deflecting any oppinion at all

[pure summit]

You're thinking that the game has to have 1250 MMR vs only 1250 MMR rated players, you can have a much wider range which can be tested and played with, such as 1250 MMR can face 1000 MMR to 1500 MMR. This way you don't run into impossible obstacles, and don't run into new players. You're assuming that an MMR system has to work like other games.

[pure summit]

Again, that's like saying we shouldn't install an alarm system at a store because someone will steal anyways. - The point is it'll make a big difference.

Also, I'm just challenging the objections to see if they have legs

[forest turtle]

Again, it will lead to ABUSE
The context is different coz this is not a pvp game. It's an extraction game

If you can't take any opinion then how about taking your time to ask the devs instead

[pure summit]

What do they get out of abusing it exactly? Other than just facing lower MMR players

[pure summit]

This would be a good, we'll see how that turns out

[forest turtle]

It will be easier for smurfing and looting on lower mmr
RMT will be easier

[pure summit]

So the idea is that they Smurf down some MMR, then loot, avoid killing anyone, maybe kill bosses etc to loot up? Doesn't that just end with them slaughtering people, then going up in MMR quickly? Doesn't sound like they'll be smurfing on the same people for very long. And it would be essentially the same as we have now, where someone can kill him and take all that loot. Also, what's RMT?

[forest turtle]

So? Just make a new character grind til lv 5 stomp newbies and delete the char, rinse and repeat.
You haven't played any game with possible RMT abuse
Try tarkov for example, is it possible to give mmr? Or any battle royale games really.

[amber solstice]

But that's the thing. You cant accurately rate the players and there is no clear cut threshold of where to start or stop. What if there arent enough bad people or good people to fill the lobby? What if the people on the lower end of the spectrum aren't good enough to compete? What's to stop people from just afk suiciding or making new characters to tank their MMR to stomp lowbies? Do you rate each player separately for each class? How does gear factor in? It's a team game, do you rate the team? Average the MMRs? Do you prevent people with different MMR from being able to play together? There isn't a ranked mode, which is where almost all games enforce their MMR systems. There are just too many variables and too many abuses to force the game to use a system that it doesn't want to use to appease players that don't want to get better.

[forest turtle]

U don't event understand real money trading, no wonder ur so hell bent on mmr.
The devs understands the games more than you sir, if the game needs mmr placement they will give it to us don't worry.

[pure summit]

There is many ways to come at formulating an MMR, so that's not really the point. Also, if there isn't enough players it expands the search, so there will be more MMR variance until a match is made. Even if there is abuses, all a High Roller chad needs to do is go to Normals if they really want to grief or farm noobs.

[pure summit]

The devs don't want to anger the base too much, and since the DnD base hates the idea of a skill estimate system, they probably won't, even though I think it's going to be one of the main ways to keep growing. Even if the MMR system only serves to protect new players, and everyone else can play whoever. - This could also be accomplished with a super casual floor or dungeon

[proud tinsel]

I'm sure there will have to be some kind of system at some point. I don't hate the idea of MMR I hate the idea of slowing down the que.

PS spear should be a 1x5 its just a dagger which is a 1x on a staff which is a 1x

[amber solstice]

Okay. Let's just ignore anything that's actually relevant to the discussion.

The MMR system has been implemented and now players are rated from 1 to 1. Hopefully you are happy with your rating. Please enjoy your MMR based matchmaking.

[pure summit]

You're kind of ignoring the point of the convo, all of what you brought up can easily be thought out and algorithmed

[forest turtle]

And if you have any experience at all at writing down thesis paper you will understand that there's too much varible that can be used to rate the player, just as @amber solstice said.
Theres kill, extraction success rate, inventory worth, bos kill, win streak, etc what percentage for each variables contributes to rating etc etc. And dont forget theres 3 people in a team and for each party to have similar mmr with limited player base?
And if there is, it's not even gonna be close to their priorities rn.
And surprisingly only you in this discussion have a problem with mmr.
Who cares about minority with skill issue? As the business they will only listen to the hardcore player that builds their comunity.

[pure summit]

So the point is that it's going to be too hard to estimate skill? I just don't think that's true, even if you just did escape vs no escape, it'd still be better than nothing

[proud tinsel]

If I'm getting hunted down and killed in 99% of my matches I'm going to quit which is bad for everyone. I think 99% of us prolly feel that way. So really bad for the game. That has not been a problem thus far. Solution with out a problem at this time

[forest turtle]

There might or might not be enough player base for them to have matchmaking and is clearly not their priorities.
Again, if later when the game already released and we did need it we will get it.
You are not smarter than the devs.

[pure summit]

I believe the more variable THE BETTER. since you can take many different data points into account. For example, if better players typically escape that goes into the equation, if better players typically kill bosses, that goes in, if players that are good kill players, etc. etc. You just weight all of them according to playtest data.

[pure summit]

I'm just kind of confused why the community detests the idea so much, that's all

[forest turtle]

Because the idea is stupid

[proud tinsel]

@pure summitbecause it will slow the pace of the game and people like the pace of the game

[pure summit]

The matchmaking will remain fast, MMR matchmaking is only slow when it is very strict

[proud tinsel]

Has been getting killed by overly skilled players been a problem? I run into way more newbs or more or less equally skilled people than anything else

[pure summit]

That's the point, you run into alot of newbs. If experienced players are often running into no-kits, that's not good for the game.

[proud tinsel]

So the pace is only slowed if the MMR is ineffective, if you take the top 10% of players out of the pool and put them in a new pool their pace will be slowed

[proud bay]

I'm more in favor of protecting the newbies (new accounts/pre level 5's) than I am sorting the rest of the community. I'm a midling player and the rush of killing some of the chads and getting their purples and legendaries is a prime example of why this type of game is so fun. Sorting level 1-4 characters into their own lobby so new folks have more of a chance to learn how to not die to the first skeleton they meet would be fine imo.

Loot tables are going to be decreasing come EA and in the most recent QandA SDF Confirmed they'll be adding randomized traps and monster spawn locations in the future which will make running through the whole dungeon hunting folks harder.

[proud tinsel]

@pure summitNo its fine because I'm not that skilled #1 and usually just drop em some stuff

[pure summit]

You make it so it adapts to the player size, if there is nobody obviously you have to pair Rank #1 with the new player

[slate tartan]

MMR does more harm to the player base than good, there are only a select few in favor of MMR. Being punished for being an average or above player is not how most want to play, and MMR is always exploitable by way of smurfs or tanking, so it really doesn't fix anything

[pure summit]

That works too

[proud tinsel]

Exactly so its either unnecessary because the pool is so large the top 10% are spread or its unnecessary because it wont be used when things are slow

I can make a new toon infinitely twink it from another account and wipe the floor with them

[pure summit]

If the pool is large it'll be much more reasonable skill gap, if it's less then you can't have an MMR system cause the game is dead basically, not sure what your point is

[proud tinsel]

Is this a problem currently?

[forest turtle]

Need to match up againts noobs? Try goblin cave
It' balanced out since the loot is terrible and everyone are mostly naked
Matchmaking has not been an issue for most of us here
There are more important issues that needs a fix ASAP

[pure summit]

I believe it will become a inevitable problem in the future as players get much better and more geared during real seasons, and this now is a good time to test

[proud tinsel]

I think you're right and at that time lets see what the devs come up with

if its not an issue for this up coming playtest I really don't care and I hope most of the devs dont either

[pure summit]

The user data from the last playtest was concerning, basically a plateau

[proud tinsel]

Lets get it into early access get the devs some cash and see what happens

The user data in regards to what? you have to understand there were a million new players who did not even know their skills

[pure summit]

Take a look at playtest #3 vs playtest #4

[proud tinsel]

in regards to what statistic and you can throw it out I have no reason to think you're being dishonest about it

[pure summit]

Basically we saw a steep incline on playtest #3, and a full plateau player count on #4, so I imagine the players were falling off as much as they were coming on. So player retention is #1 issue for the game right now IMO

Here's #3 chart:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/989064933696237568/1061990012138307634/221216_01.png?width=1760&height=1018

Here's #4:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/989064933696237568/1080161685320503346/0.jpg?width=1760&height=1018

[amber solstice]

An MMR system is in direct conflict with everything the game uses to facilitate the gameplay and emotions that it want to. It's like asking why the sun doesn't come out at night.

I suggest you focus on alternative solution to the problem you are trying to resolve. Although it is likely to be equally as fruitless.

Maybe something along the lines of having enough blue portals and exits so that everyone is able to survive. Players wouldn't be forced to kill others to ensure their own survival. They still probably will in most scenarios, but it is possible the community starts letting starter kit and undergeared people survive significantly more often, especially if they arent putting up a fight.

[proud tinsel]

It nearly doubled in playerbase and concurrent play how is that a plateau?

and the play test was supposed to end and they extended into the week with little notice. You are extracting details that are not supported by the graphs

[proud bay]

Level 1-4 lobbies I think fixes most of the problems Braeden wants and isn't a huge shift from how it is now. Experienced players will out level that in a couple games where newer folks won't letting them learn the mechanics of the game before getting murdered (which is good).

[proud tinsel]

@amber solstice There are nearly enough portals for everyone some just need to go down lol. If there were enough for everyone it would be terrible for the game

Honestly I was nearly as bad at 20 as I was at lvl 1 the xp gain has nothing to do with skill lvl

[pure summit]

You can see growth throughout the playtest #3, vs playtest #4 has no growth

[proud bay]

But there isn't a cost to adding it. It's really only positive

[proud tinsel]

Maybe the xp is tuned really high atm and getting to 5 will take some time

from playtest 3-4 was 800k increase or what like 75% growth

[idle stone]

is there a list of things they are planning on changing? i saw something about rangers having limited arrows but is that confirmed?

[pure summit]

That was all growth from playtest 3 hype, if playtest 4 has good player retention we would see growth like #3

[forest turtle]

Sounds stupid, so i hope not.

[proud tinsel]

It will jump again from 4-5, yes that is confirmed but its not a change its the way it was supposed to be from the start its just being implemented now

@pure summitYou need to go retake statistics

[pure summit]

Uhh, I think you're not seeing the same chart I'm seeing, cause if you start at 110,000 players and can't top your starting point throughout the playtest, you aren't growing....

Didn't have any definable higher lows, or higher highs except for feb 8 to feb 12 where it seemed like a small increase on average

[proud tinsel]

and from pt 3 to 4 you grew by 800,000 players growth

[pure summit]

You have to look at when people are actually playing, don't know how the gap in between when no one is playing is somehow good retention...

[amber solstice]

There are a large number of external factors that sway the statistics.

Playtest 3 was during christmas break during the two weeks leading up to an Escape From Tarkov Wipe with no major releases for competition. It really was a perfect storm for Dark and Darker.

Playtest 4 was during Next Fest where tons of other games were also releasing demos and there were releases like Hogwarts Legacy to compete with. Also weekday vs weekend is significant, especially when holidays arent involved.

[proud tinsel]

It did not retain people it GREW

[pure summit]

I just think that's kind of cope, if the game has great retention, people would play it over other games...

[proud bay]

True, its almost a miracle the playercount stayed so high. Meaning people kept logging on to play more

[proud tinsel]

Its an alpha play test its not even an early access game yet

You are putting the cart so far in front of the horse and you are miss using numbers to support false claims

[pure summit]

What false claim? The game didn't grow during the playtest, that's undeniable (Average player count)

[proud tinsel]

It did in fact many of my friends did not start day 1 of the PT

[amber solstice]

What else can we ask this guy to get the worst possible take imaginable? Lol

[pure summit]

I gave you the chart, I don't know how you can see the chart and say that the playtest grew in concurent player base during it.

[proud tinsel]

But thats not my point, The point is that saying it did not grow during the x day play test when it gained 800,000 players and doubled concurrent play is a bit absurd

[pure summit]

That's not what I said at all, I said that the charts showed that the first playtest grew concurent, and this one didn't

[amber solstice]

What's your favorite video game of all time?

[forest turtle]

my advice to you, don't run a business it will fail horribly.
seasonal spike in business is cope he says.

[pure summit]

lol you guys are just in your feels or something

[proud tinsel]

Game is breaking records in growth and hitting top 100 of games played on steam ever in concurrent play and we have a problem

[pure summit]

Bro, I don't even know what you're talking about at this point lol

[idle stone]

it’s a lot easier to retain 3 players than 30 more people trying the game = more people quitting the game after a few days obviously the player count is going to drop

[proud tinsel]

@pure summitYeah but thats not your problem. Your problem is that you don't know what you're talking about

[idle stone]

it’s low point was still higher than the peak of last play test

[pure summit]

You're the one saying that the jump of players from playtest 3 to 4 is somehow player retention and growth, when people AREN'T EVEN PLAYING THE GAME... I'm talking about when the playtest is being played. Don't know how to make that more clear.

[proud tinsel]

I know what your saying and what I'm saying is that what you're saying is nonsense that does not matter or mean anything near what you are saying it does

[pure summit]

If the charts showed the same thing for say a month, would you be concerned? What timeframe would make you say that the game isn't growing?

[proud tinsel]

No, if day 1 is 10% higher than day 1 wipe 1 I will be concerned

the 10% is arbitrary but those 2 numbers are the only 2 that matter

[pure summit]

The only way we can judge the performance and sticking power of the game is with these charts. We can't judge off of day 1 hype

[proud tinsel]

You know what i mean

[idle stone]

i mean look at any game that wipes it starts off with a high player count and slowly goes down until the next update

[proud tinsel]

exactly and it will be exactly like that for this game

[idle stone]

path of exile, rust, prob tarkov

[proud tinsel]

I would not be surprised if day 30 is 10% of day 1

[pure summit]

Right now we should just be seeing uptrends though, we haven't scratched the market cap

[proud tinsel]

90% of the people who will play this game have not even heard of it obviously made up numbers but you know what i mean

[idle stone]

nah i def felt like i ran out of stuff to do near the end of the play test and had too much money to spend

didn’t activate the gambling neurons cuz I wasn’t risking anything

[proud tinsel]

The smartest thing they can do right now is just add content/maps/classes etc

Well you're better than me I felt risk every time i went in but im a pussy

[idle stone]

my point is it’s about the journey not the destination if you’ve played rust or poe you know what i mean once you get rich it gets boring

[proud tinsel]

Its all about the new start

[idle stone]

the new start is always the most hype

last day who cares if u die playtest is over tomorrow

[proud tinsel]

If you look at the month to month or day to day you will drive yourself crazy. Will we get 2.5 million people and 150k concurrent this pt idk, I hope so

[idle stone]

who cares if u get crazy item playtest is over tomorrow

I think if they continue to update the game it will be a solid player base it’s not gonna be triple a fortnite size but i think it will always have a player base

[proud tinsel]

Yeah these early numbers mean nothing, if these guys were taking funding atm I would go in big I think they have a winner

[idle stone]

it’s not really markable towards a lot of groups tho

[proud tinsel]

True, very niche

[devout sphinx]

I suggest letting me play the game

[idle stone]

yeah but it’s super fun and using the wipe method on top of constant updates will keep the player base consistent enough to keep the servers up

[proud tinsel]

2million copies at 30$ ea makes everyone at iron mace with a significant share millionaires

[amber solstice]

Just plug it into the algorithm is my new argument for everything now.

[idle stone]

yeah but if the devs actually care the life span of a game will last the new triple a games just plug it into the algorithm and leave

[proud tinsel]

I need an algorithm to respond to thinktank

[idle stone]

Hate watching people buy the new cod every year even though it’s just a retexture of last years

[proud tinsel]

also spear should be 1x5 not 2x5 dont be absurd

[idle stone]

you should be able to rotate items

[amber solstice]

Good thing this isnt EFT or Nikita would make them 3x6. Lolol

[proud tinsel]

Lol

[idle stone]

do people even use spears enough to expand the size of them nobody would pick them up

[proud tinsel]

staff= 1x, dagger =1x put em together =2x right??

[amber solstice]

Just plug it into the algorithm and let it decide.

[devout sphinx]

let me play the game

[proud tinsel]

GD you're a genius what is an algorithm once I know this ill win at everything

[idle stone]

just make every item the size of ur entire inventory

[amber solstice]

I hope on April Fools Day they put out an announcement saying they decided not to continue development and are selling the IP to Electronic Arts.

[proud tinsel]

Wait what if we make em 1 slot bigger than your inventory

[idle stone]

yeah they should just remove looting I think

[floral bison]

The amount of emotional damage you just caused me, and that was just an idea

[idle stone]

make all items obtainable from purchasable loot boxes

[amber solstice]

Yeah antiques should definitely be loot box only.

[idle stone]

actually they should remove killing as well it would really be beneficial for the social aspect of the game

[proud tinsel]

Wait player killing or all killing?

[idle stone]

All killing, killing skeletons is inhumane

[proud tinsel]

They already died once, doubled jeopardy would come into affect you would think

[idle stone]

infact they should just remove the dungeons and have everyone just chill in the pub for the entire game

[amber solstice]

Man they could have so much fun with April Fools... sad there wont be gameplay during it.

[proud tinsel]

You wont be here for the next PT?

[idle stone]

I will be sending my pc home so i’ll miss the next one

[graceful frost]

Yall mind if I put a suggestion in here? its long but the suggestion bot didnt work and its on cooldown.

[proud tinsel]

You mind if we mock it?

[graceful frost]

go ahead

[amber solstice]

I had no power for 4 days during playtest 3. Played with a generator tethered to my phones internet. Lol

[proud tinsel]

Plug it into the algorithm and see what happens

[graceful frost]

Limited ranger arrows seem to be getting added, these are my suggestion on it.

Although this seems like a big nerf to ranger, it really doesn't seem like it will solve the issue. Because of this I suggest still removing the auto reload from the skills multishot and quickshot. For example quickshot will put 3 arrows into the quiver, enough for the skill. Along with this when you cancel the skill you will not get any arrows and it will put you at the previous count. It would be the same thing for multishot, however with 5 arrows instead of 3.

I think that arrows taking up inventory space is a bad idea. either rangers will need to take up a very large amount of space for arrows, Really limiting the class. Or they will barely take up space, so rangers will bring an insane amount. I recommend a sort of quiver, maybe it can take inventory space, but would be bow specific.

Longbow-75-100 arrow quiver(could be changed)

Recurve- 85-110(since it is faster shooting than longbow)

Survival bow- 100+ arrows(This bow is the fastest shooting and most ammo.)

These changes would mean you still have to buy arrows, or get them via other means, However it would stop high gold rangers from bringing in almost infinite arrows. Along with this you should not have to sacrifice your ability to shoot your weapon, to get more loot.(This mostly applies to situations where it would be like 10 arrows every 4 slots) No other class is like that.

There will most likely be different types of arrows, I recommend a wheel, similar to spell wheel that will allow you to cycle. Along with a max amount of each type, so you can't bring in all best arrows.

I think ranger should also spawn with a melee weapon. Maybe a small hatchet? Otherwise your pretty much shooting gold at pve.

[proud tinsel]

My internet went out too i flew across the country to watch my nephew play it

[idle stone]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[proud tinsel]

I'm over ranger stuff so i pass. Except spear it should be 1x5 not 2x5 don't be silly its a stick on a dagger

[idle stone]

let me get some upvotes on this god tier suggestion fellas

[proud tinsel]

wait a tick, its a dagger on a stick

I got you yawp, keep putting out homeruns

[idle stone]

not seeing enough joke suggestions in there gotta spice it up

[devout sphinx]

no

[proud tinsel]

This is not a ranger nerf, this is just ranger how it was always going to be

If ranger is not broken I'm just 10x better as a ranger than every other class i play

[idle stone]

where do u guys see that they are making ranger arrows limited I keep seeing that everywhere but is it confirmed or what

[proud tinsel]

First time I saw it was last november in a dev interview, it was confirmed again today

[idle stone]

where was it confirmed?

[proud tinsel]

The march qna clarification

[autumn fossil]

People have no clue how it’s actually going to work. Just getting worked up before seeing what is actually being implemented.

[proud tinsel]

I would look for it but im so sick of people thinking its news when its just the way ranger was designed from the inception pisses me off

What really is going to baffle the rangers is when the actual nerfs come in

[idle stone]

I couldn’t imagine trying to fight teams as a solo melee class tho

besides maybe rouge but that class is boring asf imo

[proud tinsel]

No and it turns out rogues are not bad im just a god tier ranger and a crap rogue which is nice i guess

I'm also a better barbarian than I am rogue, and fighter, and cleric

[idle stone]

yeah it’s prob just a skill issue but as annoying as people find ranger it and wizard are really the only classes you can disengage and still pick people off

[proud tinsel]

its not a skill issue, rangers are broken

[idle stone]

Yeah it’s prob a really annoying class to play against if u aren’t one I’m not sitting here saying my class shouldn’t be nerfed

just think it allows for the highest chance of winning outnumbered fights relative to a class like barb

[proud tinsel]

I want them all as equal as possible. Your outcome should not be determined at all by your class but by your skill

God tier players can 1vX on anything

[idle stone]

Sure but some classes are better in groups then others that’s a given

[amber solstice]

It's too many suggestions in one, and no one knows what the ranger change actually is. So it's really hard to speculate on in general. It could be a nerf, it could just be a rebalance, it could even end up being a buff or a set up for new mechanics.

Your changes are kind of just a mish mash of slight tweaks that no one can really get behind and say damn that's a great idea.

It kind of comes off as a please let me keep at least this much post. It doesn't feel like you really acknowledge any of the issues people have with rangers and are just trying to minimally appease them.

Why have abilities reload the quiver at all? Why not just require the number of arrows for the ability and actually require a reload?

[proud tinsel]

Sure but thats a different issue, group synergy /= class balance

[idle stone]

playing a class like barb solo sounds miserable into any team with half a brain cell

[proud tinsel]

I find barbarian fairly boring to play after a bit its not as dynamic as say a fighter

Its crazy op so i used it to farm gold for other classes until I found the god tier farmer, the ranger

[idle stone]

tools like caltrops traps invis and slows are good for being able to split up teams and create choke points hence why those classes are better solo then others

[proud tinsel]

A good player can split up teams with no special tools though

[idle stone]

yeah but actually having the tools to do so is more valuable to a classes kit as a solo

[proud tinsel]

Some classes value having a team split up more as well. On a fighter i just as soon have em stacked, less wear and tear on the weapons

[astral tartan]

Campfire cleric gang would like a word with whiney finite ranger boys over inventory space.

[proud tinsel]

try being a rogue or barb with throwing weapons, which they say are both OPAF and you also dont need em

[amber solstice]

10 Francesca stack barb gang is happy with 8g projectiles and half an inventory.

[proud tinsel]

Right lol

When i run out i have to switch toons until the vendor restocks

[astral tartan]

Its 25g every time i want to 'reload'. wheres my meditate or infinite arrows

[proud tinsel]

No love for us pgh, the resourced for subsidized infinite arrows means axe and knife lines for the rest of us

Rattle this into your brain too, when skullheads drop arrows too that means less axes and knives for us

[astral tartan]

On top of a 10 second cast and then im stationary for another 5-10. Sometimes 2 campfires to get full spells. Yet these dudes want 75+ arrows per quiver do u even shoot 75 long bow shots in a single lobby??

[proud tinsel]

Yeah but think of how OP clerics are, they are the kings of everything OP just ask the rangers

[amber solstice]

Rangers complaining that they are so rich that the cost of arrows wont matter, if they even cost gold at all, but they cant handle losing inventory space, which they might not even lose, because they get slightly less gold out...?

[pseudo wing]

spawn ranger in with a bow and a pickaxe. add a salt mine node and u need salt to make arrows. Ranger can now make 1 arrow for every salt ore he mines 🙂

[idle stone]

being able to just keep arrows in ur inventory kinda just removes my questions of adding a finite amount of arrows

as a ranger player i have no objection to that change if i can put more arrows in my inventory like axes

[astral tartan]

Yawp u arent a lowly ranger youre a level headed chad bow enjoyer big dif

[idle stone]

well i can understand the annoyance people have with the class when i slap a trap down create a choke point and just spam thru the choke point. the second people try disarming it just throw a molly at them

the only real counter to ranger is a better ranger

maybe rouge unless the ranger just has a sword in their secondary

[astral tartan]

75 long bow shots like the fella above suggested just defeats the entire purpose of finite arrows, 'finites cool as long as i have enough arrows to 1-2 tap every player and mob in tye entire dungeon'

[covert stag]

-uses skill and pulls arrows out of the ground-

[idle stone]

20 arrows the ability to pickup arrows off the ground and bring more in ur inventory and no reload sounds fair

[astral tartan]

20 or 30 per quiver would be plenty yeah

2 quivers on your hotbar save the inventory room everyones happy

[idle stone]

20 arrows to start and u can hold 5-10 in a quiver that is 1x3 or 1x2 size

[covert stag]

Ability to pull arrows out of prison pocket

[idle stone]

I meant arrows that have already been shot not just spawn them into existence like it is now

[astral tartan]

Make em sit down and start widdling for 10 seconds for +10 arrows

[covert stag]

Give the bows a side attack to go bonk lul

[idle stone]

just start with a shit dagger as a secondary

[amber solstice]

I saw a video of someone up on the 2nd floor of library throwing molotovs at people trying to fight the skeleton mage. And now I really just want to a RP a skeleton mage. Lol

[idle stone]

I didn’t even know u could climb that ladder until today that would’ve been funny asf to know

[clear bluff]

@idle stone thank you for the good laugh

[idle stone]

u talking about my amazing suggestion?

the fact it has less downvotes than implementing an MMR system says a lot about our society

[iron fractal]

yours was a troll post, the dude suggesting MMR system is just clueless

[harsh belfry]

No mmr is part of the magic of this game. I’d lose a lot of my starry eyed feelings for the game if it got an mmr system

[astral tartan]

i see no issue with only high roller lobbies having some type of brackets

only 3% of you even played high roller why do you care anyways lol

[thorn ivy]

the highest participation rate for high roller on the most active day for it was 1.8%

[idle stone]

what would the point of adding mmr to highroller be if such a low amount of the playerbase played it already lol

[astral tartan]

i mean it was a week long playtest with an entry fee on the ranked mode that inevitably resets, the number will eventually go up when people have more time. but the reason i would like to see sbmm is mainly because mmr has the ability to fluctuate which would make the leaderboard race less time intensive and more skill based.

[idle stone]

plus adding mmr to a game with the incentive of loot acquisition instead of ranking up would highly encourage smurfing

[astral tartan]

also, its just not fun fighting new players having played since the very first test. smurfing exists in any game with a ranked system, they could take the overwatch approach if theyre that against it and tie your account to a phone number.

[idle stone]

right but without a ranked system there is no point of not just throwing games to lower ur mmr

[astral tartan]

they already announced theyre leaning towards a ladder system

[astral tartan]

this is why i think mmr/brackets/sbmm should only be for high roller, normals should be all levels of players to not take away from that looter shooter feel that people do enjoy

but im a firm believer that just because other looter shooters/extract shooters whatever you want to call them dont have a great ranking system doesnt mean the genre should never have one.

[idle stone]

I think its fine as it is adding mmr brackets to a game mode that is already meant for the best players seems redundant.

[astral tartan]

because the gap between highroller teams is massive let alone a top high roller team and people who only play normals.

[idle stone]

right if ur a casual player u play normal dont play high roller

[astral tartan]

right, so sbmm will never affect you.

i played 2 goblin caves the entire playtest, i dont voice my opinion on whats best for solos. i just find it silly that people who dont even play high roller are so opposed to sbmm, i could see if it carried over to normals but if its just HR who cares

[idle stone]

but if im shit why not just play HR because im going to be matched with ppl at my skill level already/If im above average why would I even want to play HR if im just going to be going against the higher % of players

[astral tartan]

i mean it would be more forgiving as a casual player to play HR at that point. and if you're above average pub stomping gets old very quick when you have a full stash and 2 mules of gear

the most adrenaline packed dopamine fueled lobbies were with other top 10 HR teams

[idle stone]

right but then when u get bored of pub stomping u switch to HR

if ur above average the lower % of players playing highroller would put u into lobbies with those ppl anyways

[astral tartan]

1.8% is still tens of thousands of people and the number will only go up in EA

[iron fractal]

making a mmr system or w/e similar would make it boring as fuck as you'd knoe what you're gonna somewhat face instead of not knowing at all whats ahead of you

[thorn ivy]

I really want the game now ; w ;

[idle stone]

at the end of the day if the goal of the game is loot acquisition rather than ranking up I dont think an mmr system makes any sense

[turbid ermine]

Mmr system is confirmed to not be coming, thankfully

[thorn ivy]

I honestly don't think there should be an mmr system in this game. Like I remember being 2v3, going inferno and taking on full purple geared players with nothing but greens and winning. Imagine being denied that excitement because your rating isn't high enough yet. lol

[idle stone]

what ur suggesting is opening the gates to more players playing HR which really defeats the purpose of it all together

[idle stone]

yeah dont even get me started on the players who dont play in full groups an mmr system would butcher their playing experience

[graceful frost]

I did say it at the start what the change is, but had too many characters so I couldn’t use it in other players. Ill change it to more of 1 suggestion

[astral tartan]

yeah, it would be great. knowing im going against people of the same caliber instead of a HR lobby full of white/green geared rats

the only thing i found boring about the game was undergeared lobbies

[leaden tide]

No they didnt

[astral tartan]

yeah you can scroll up thru the QnA if you would like

[leaden tide]

---Final QnA Updates Before 2/7 Demo---

Skill-Based Matchmaking: "No."

[astral tartan]

i said ladders, nothing about sbmm. they already announced seasons and more than likely a ladder

[leaden tide]

Seasons have been announced yes
nothing about a ladder from what I've read

[astral tartan]

in ranked 1 sec, have the ss

[leaden tide]

Also ladders are often referred to as leaderboards
not as some sort of points or skill based system

And we already have leaderboards, it's more along the lines of them resetting every season

[astral tartan]

yeah too bad the argument isnt what a ladder is, i simply said they're leaning towards them.

[leaden tide]

Yea we already have them so nothing changes and its still not based on skill

[astral tartan]

they literally said it wont be the same leaderboard system as well so, you're arguing just to argue.

[turbid ermine]

I-d like a source, because any form of mmr would ruin the surprise of having to deal with clueless players versus an actual decent team, you died to a decent team? down back to the trashier ones u go, no surprise

[leaden tide]

That's literally what ladders are lmao. It's leaderboards with a fancier name. Only thing that they could change is what the leaderboards are tracking

[leaden tide]

#dev-qna message

And ladders aren't MMR based its just leaderboards so you don't have to worry about it. Devs already said they don't ever intend to match people based on skill

[turbid ermine]

Definetely talking about a leaderboard replacement there