suggestion-discussion

[astral tartan]

@wild valley buddy of mine finished 1st for cleric kills this playtest curious to what he runs buff wise. i saw a lot of quarterstaff/mace+shield in his vid but didnt pay attention to the buffs. goated bonk boi

[atomic mountain]

I was an admitted C sword enjoyer 🙂

[verbal marsh]

in a high roller team you're better off just pocket buffing someone and judgment sniping kills, most cases you will never leave your spell book with a good team.

[wild valley]

oh yeah I kinda skipped the buffing part of the gameplay

but it was bless + protection + divine strike + blue pot + ale

[astral tartan]

that really puts the amount of +dmg in the game in perspective, i threw divine and protection on and everything after was overkill

oh i see what you're saying kasai

[wild valley]

the extra attribute from bless and ale helps a lot

[astral tartan]

agreed, thats how i play. theres some professional bonk bois tho who frontline in highroller and have success

[delicate schooner]

.shortinfo [1639938]
Quick question for those the DV'd this one: Are you expecting to be the one the runs over people with better equipment or do you just really like wailing on someone that can drop you like the last set at a gym?

[eager sable]

Please provide a valid suggestion ID.

[wild valley]

you can get some high ass amount of strength and reach some bizarre numbers of health because of it

[astral tartan]

what class did you struggle with the most?

[verbal marsh]

if you don't have melee you run front cleric with option to kite behind your ranger with bind and haste from your wizard thats more about your wizard being a good support and being the anchor of your team. Problem is when you have no melee your range don't understand they're suppose to follow the cleric and keep him safe from ambush.

[wild valley]

felling axe barb being buffed by a cleric, it was basically the only thing I couldn't face trade

[astral tartan]

if you and kinji are saying ale i guess im gettin drunk next test

[full ibex]

I just think it would be hell on matchmaking times

[wild valley]

but I had a lot of wrong shit in my build that I noticed after playtest + if I had a mage to throw me ignite I could run over any melee

[delicate schooner]

Strange that you're weighing that in, but alright.

[full ibex]

Why? If it’s something that affects matchmaking you should take into account how that changes it

[wild valley]

so in the end, the stuff I would struggle the most would be ranger or mage

[delicate schooner]

I feel like a bad user experience tends to affect matchmaking in a much more direct way. You're also inferencing that there's no flex or bend to how strict it is using equipment grouping.

[wild valley]

but like, theres no HARD COUNTER like ranger vs fighter is

[astral tartan]

gotcha interesting.

[full ibex]

Fair, however I would argue that you don’t always suffer in the instances where an over geared character is in your game, I’ve gotten a few purples from people who just play poorly and die, I don’t like over gearing I just don’t think changing matchmaking is a great change

[thorn ivy]

hate when people make a good suggestion and a bad suggestion under the same post. 😔

[astral tartan]

@wild valley @verbal marsh so how do i implement ale into my support build for the extra HP, think it would be worth? books in my hands 90% of the time

[delicate schooner]

Keep in mind that the game won't always be new and fresh, where no one has ironed out any skills. Over time in any game, the general skill of normal players rises and it is inherently much harder to punish someone who is better protected and geared by a larger margin than you.

[full ibex]

Ok but by that point how will fresh characters get into games? It doesn’t matter if most people are already geared if nobody can get into it once that happens

[astral tartan]

between buffing both my dps with prot/divine/bless and throwing a protection/bless on myself idk if it would be practical to drink that after also drinking a blue pot. so much prep work for clerics

[wild valley]

nah, even more because u gotta sacrifice one perk to get the brewmaster

[verbal marsh]

ale is all about movement, book will be in your hands the least lol. Smite is to reserve spells while doing melee to ai, aside from spamming bless on yourself you don't cast spells unless you hear footsteps. when you hear footsteps you cast protect, when you know proximity you cast divine strike and potion, pick up ale and burp in their face as you one shot Kinji (smites) Ronin

[wild valley]

since I don't play support I get rid of the healing myself when I heal the others one, but that one for u that plays support is crazy strong

[delicate schooner]

They play, they loot, they get gear leveled in the same way anyone does when the game is fresh and new. They get the experience you'd take away from them by forcing new players into the same games as people who have run every play test and are halfway to whatever in-game top tier/level there is.

[astral tartan]

makes sense

[astral tartan]

thats what im saying though, if i play support cleric and dont find myself doing all that much melee damage, do you think brewmaster would be worth it to drink the ale as a defensive for the hp alone?

[verbal marsh]

its better then trying to cast 2 other spells, you can protection, and drink on the go quickly to turn and smite or judgement in a bind so yes. most cases when you're rushed you cannot buffball if you have space to get off only 1 or 2 good buffs ale is #1 and divine or protection would be the other. before using judgement or smite on them.

[wild valley]

I'd go advanced healer + kindness + perseverance + protection from evil with lesser heal + holy light + divine strike + protection + bind AND judgement when with low knowledge, and when I got a high ass amount of knowledge I'd run the 10 spell cleric

[lusty wren]

This sounds like literal aids. Just NO! 😄

[astral tartan]

yeah my end game build i ran the dual spellbooks for res/bind/sanc. i only took judgement when i didnt have faith in my dps pun intended

playing barb wiz cleric tho we had more than enough dps without judgement

[delicate schooner]

Speaks a lot about the expectation from this game when I offer a fairer matching system suggestion off the back of a similar game's failed one and people would rather chance being the one that stomps without any challenge.

[wild valley]

I mean, it gets u +22 hp with the ale which is the same as protection basically. but again, I wouldn't use it without brewmaster and I wouldn't switch anything for brewmaster as a support cleric

[lusty wren]

You are asking to add a convoluted system that tries to predict skill based on equipment worn. This is absolutely ridiculous. Not only does gear not equate to skill but the increase in MM time alone would make it undesirable

If one wanted to just stomp people out, they will have their two friends come in naked, and give them the gear after they passed the MM check

[atomic mountain]

Matchmaking is fine for now. Game is in its alpha with barely any content and you want them to shift focus so things are more equitable. It’s complex and it Won’t work.

[verbal marsh]

i think protection from evil is a precursor to bard debuffs, like breakthrough was to staggering effects. I don't know why you're using that one yet.

[astral tartan]

the only perk id be willing to drop is protection from evil, the reduced dot damage is actually very nice but not as impactful as the other 3 main perks. i know a good bit of support clerics run requim as well for the +health on rez

[delicate schooner]

lmk how much your skill matters when naked and going against the weapon that lightning strikes you on hit.

[lusty wren]

I ran req

[lusty wren]

This changes nothing. Again if you want to stomp people out have 2/3s of your group come in naked and just supply them the gear after the MM check

[delicate schooner]

You didn't read or think about the inventory being accounted for in any calculation.

I've got like 15 friends interested in the game, and 5 of them like Tarkov enough to play it offline only because of the equipment mismatch.

[wild valley]

I've heard from a lot of good players that that shit is basically a -50% debuff reduction, that it even works with when u get slowed by a hit and shit like that. I can't prove it myself, but I trust the ppl I've heard it from. If it doesnt work like that, yeah maybe brewmaster would be a good replacement, but if it does work like that I wouldn't change it for anything

[astral tartan]

yeah i was talking about this in the top 100 discord, i dont think it was working as intended, there were times i took 0 dot damage from rogue poisons or the mosquitos

[wild valley]

exactly, thats what I'm saying. I heard that shit too. I also heard that it would sometimes negate the ignite's dot and etc

[lusty wren]

Come back at me when it gets a singular upvote from someone other than yourself 😄

[atomic mountain]

🎤

[delicate schooner]

As it goes, I might be interested enough to play the game in the first week after wipes if I remember it.

[astral tartan]

what side are we arguing here

[lusty wren]

That his idea for gear based MM is aids

[atomic mountain]

Someone wants SBMM

[verbal marsh]

ah I see, maybe it does. would make it pretty good. think I use perse, brew, weapon, heal I would probably replace the weapon with protection then. I dont care for kindness cause If I'm healing someone else i dont need to be healed lol.

[delicate schooner]

Gear/inventory based matchmaking is an accurate summary

[lusty wren]

One of my favorite things to do in these types of games is zero to hero and I know many others agree. Gear MM destroys every aspect of this. And this is just one of the many many things bad about that system

[wild valley]

yeah I can see that working too

[atomic mountain]

So hard to do. Based on what? Rarity? I can game that system. Rolls? I can game that too

[astral tartan]

gear based MM is just gonna cause a lot of grief for more casual players who finally get into a high tier lobby just to donate to higher skilled players with the same gear.

[wild valley]

I can also see this working as well

[leaden tide]

Sbmm is dumb af

[delicate schooner]

TBH, if the direction the game is going is one where I can start running into a brick wall on first game then I can forget about this one until someone mods it.

[atomic mountain]

I’m not one to say that SBMM is never a good thing in any game, But it’s really hard to do it right and on top of that this game is it it’s alpha stage and it needs more depth not more complexity

[lusty wren]

I wouldnt even call gear based MM skill based match making.... Gear does not = skill

[leaden tide]

Gear or skill based matchmaking is dumb regardless

[verbal marsh]

think kindness and ressurection are mainly needed when your teammates are just bad. helps with res shrines and allows you to use sanctuary face tank while aoe healing on harder ai

[atomic mountain]

You’ll miss out. Game hit near top 100 and it’s not even out (This game is probably gonna be top 10 easy)

[lusty wren]

In DaD I 100% agree

[leaden tide]

Whats the point of being good at the game if im forced to play against other people who are just as good. Then ill just feel like I never improved and get frustrated when i dont feel like tryharding and get to play vs tryhards

[delicate schooner]

It's a fun game for me, but so was Tarkov and then I can put 5 headtaps into a guy and it does nothing.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah this game isn’t Tarkov

[leaden tide]

You can 1 tap people in legendary gear with a full green barbarian

[atomic mountain]

Just because you extract doesn’t mean it’s a Tarkov 🤔

[delicate schooner]

And yet it has the same gearing system ability. Armor and armor and potions and magic and now you do no damage.

[verbal marsh]

tarkov is fun, and then you get one shot with full rig after wealking 10 steps.

[atomic mountain]

Ok

[astral tartan]

i get chastised every time i bring up sbmm which i dont understand because only 3% of us play high rollers anyways but i'd like to see a system similar to apex, the longer you survive the more mmr you gain, kills scale over the course of a game so if you run in and kill 3 people then die the mmr is weighted less than if you get 3 kills and your team is last alive. i dont think MMR is the answer in a looter shooter but more so brackets/divisions if theyre going to approach it that way. brackets will help with matchmaking time, which if they make it so you can trade/organize stash/test damage while you wait for a lobby idt too many people would complain about a small wait. as is grinding leaderboards is a time sink, there is no way to catch up if higher ranked players are actively playing. its time played + performance which will deter a lot of people who are interested in leaderboards, and you can forget about starting halfway through a season, no point in even attempting to grind the leaderboards

[delicate schooner]

People would rather wade through other players like they're playing vermintide.

[astral tartan]

the leaderboards right now are extremely cheese-able

[lusty wren]

Have you ever tried to zero to hero?

Have you ever enjoyed purposefully placing yourself at a disadvantage at all? for any reason?

[atomic mountain]

I always have fun in rocket league and it has SBMM. I’m not saying it’s bad. It’s just very inappropriate for right now imo. Game needs depth, more maps,
More modes, questing, crafting, practice arenas, improving trade etc etc etc. Last on my list would be complex systems

[verbal marsh]

thats why I keep suggesting gathering-hub disable leaderboard standing gains, would be the first step toward a more hardcore style of play challenge, and the next would to be to check a hardcore character button option and introduce another style of play.

[atomic mountain]

Every single person on this game has had a wide range of experiences so making a general statement like this is kind of counterproductive and all you’re gonna do is rally more people against your cause (we’ve all had win streaks and losing streaks)

[lusty wren]

I like challenging games. I love the fact that you sometimes approach people that outgear you, or even out skill you. The feeling of winning that fight and taking their better gear is awesome

[delicate schooner]

In Tarkov or DaD?
I play for the satisfaction of hitting and outmaneuvering, but hardly manage to get more than a blue or purple. I know I'm not terribly good, and most of my friends aren't even playing as well as I do.

[lusty wren]

In anything. I am asking if you enjoy challenge, and if you have ever chose to put yourself at a disadvantage to gain more challenge.

Are you the type that puts a single player game on easy or hard? 😄

[atomic mountain]

“What difficulty do you usually play on?”

[verbal marsh]

congrats on beating a goblin, can you solo a champion?

[delicate schooner]

As mostly archer (Learned late last playtest that the stutters I got in melee were from HDD storage) I plink targets. There's a point where I'm pincushioning someone and it no longer feels like I've done something skillful and instead I'm just achieving the necessary.

[astral tartan]

i guess i would say id like to see a different leaderboard more so than i want sbmm. im not sure thats possible without time played being a factor though. i think its one or the other.

[delicate schooner]

PvE is easy, other than some situations being stuck between players and mobs.

@teal grail
Usually the one right under the hardest.

Why has this become a skill judge? Last time I even cared about measuring that was when Overwatch was relevant.

[atomic mountain]

I want player profiles with statistics that I can follow wipe to wipe

[astral tartan]

ayyyy me too lemme shame the non rank 1s jk jk. i would still like this tho

[lusty wren]

I only ask because I am trying to understand your position better. So I am curious what level of hardness you prefer in your games

[atomic mountain]

No F that I’m not there yet gdi lol

[leaden tide]

Cod has sbmm and it has increasingly become less fun and more of a chore to play

[full ibex]

I just want to reiterate that I just don’t want matchmaking changed, over gearing isn’t fun to fight but changing matchmaking to fight it isn’t a good idea

[atomic mountain]

Yeah in some games it’s a good experience and in some games it’s not that’s why I don’t subscribe to the fact that it’s always good or always bad

[astral tartan]

if you're arguing sbmm because you got bullied in a norm i hate to break it to you but people will just tank their mmr to continue bullying you

[atomic mountain]

[leaden tide]

I agree to have sbmm in ranked modes like cs go lol etc but not in games like this or cod lol

[astral tartan]

not to mention smurf accts

[delicate schooner]

I enjoyed Diamond/Master Ana in OW if that matters and Diamond in Apex, but those only translate positioning and aim.

[atomic mountain]

Hunt showdown has entered the chat

[verbal marsh]

Hopefully they have some sort of character accolade sheet in the future, I do find it harrowing that there isn't anything more then a list of the last 9 karma teams you'd played with. Would be nice to see names that are attributing toward your success or downfall.

[delicate schooner]

Aye, I guess under this logic there's no point in accounting for anything and we may as well just throw people in at random and say there was nothing to be done.

[astral tartan]

you mean how the game is now and how every game in the genre is?

[atomic mountain]

And those are valid, enjoyable games. But right now this game doesn’t need something like that because it needs to establish a big player base first and foremost. Complicating the systems that are already in place Would be in disservice of that goal. Right now a high priority for this game is to increase its content

[delicate schooner]

Hunt Matchmakes, Tarkov doesn't, I really don't know the rest of the genre.

[astral tartan]

didnt hunt remove its sbmm because so many people abused it

[atomic mountain]

Nope And you can still tank your bounty hunt matchmaker rating by going into quick play which isn’t even ranked and dying

[verbal marsh]

popular theme in isekai are hunter cards that collect dungeon data, so it wouldnt be far off to introduce some sort of sheet players can easily inspect should you share it.

[astral tartan]

im just arguing both sides. im a leaderboard junkie and wouldnt mind if they added sbmm, but i also understand the vast majority don't want that

[atomic mountain]

Hunt showdown has the most amount of Smurfs and the most volatile and inconsistent matchmaking system I’ve ever seen it in the game (Coming from someone who really loves that game)

[delicate schooner]

Hunt doesn't have weapon/armor discrepancy though, so it's hardly a contender. Destiny does any the only thing I hear from that is how shit it is to not have the leading edge drops.

[atomic mountain]

Yea it does lol Are you really gonna say someone at a higher SBMM can’t afford to buy better gear and equipment??

[verbal marsh]

I think there should be a balance to the challenge system and reward. Right now the leaderboards kinda just sit on the lourels of the trading system. If you were to just make the character resupply more difficult you'd have less sweaty players able to repeatedly wash in and out of the high roller loot tables with the best gear.

[delicate schooner]

I headtap as well with the sparks as I do with Caldwell

[atomic mountain]

Yeah this game doesn’t have guns or head shots like that

[delicate schooner]

Therefore there's a bigger difference in equipment vs not. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I mean clearly I'm getting nowhere, but I'm getting good insight on the mentality of people who play this.

[atomic mountain]

Nitpicking and making false comparisons when you’re trying to make your point it’s just gonna make you look worse. I’ve already said some of the things you said were fair but digging your heels in the sand on the subject is not going to help you.

[astral tartan]

when theres loot on the line, expect resistance

[inner thorn]

only part of them, there are like 2 sides, 1 want gear differentiation and one chaos like its now

[atomic mountain]

We’re very passionate about this game because it’s honestly a master craft for what it is right now and we don’t want to see it ruined by implementing things from other games that work for them but don’t work here

[delicate schooner]

I've stuck to my points the whole way through. Better equipment in a higher TTK game will just lead to a slap fight for one side and Doom music playing in the head of the other.

[astral tartan]

i think the gap between white and legendary gear is pretty massive, the gap between good greens and legendary gear is significantly smaller.

[atomic mountain]

If you want to go play a hyper competitive low ttk looter shooter or an Esport game, The market is flooded with those so you can have plenty of options in that field

[astral tartan]

more often than not those purples/legendaries have a dead stat/perk on them, true BIS is way more rare than a random purple with 1 good stat on it.

[delicate schooner]

I want to swing swords and mostly fire arrows. Magic is nice too.

[atomic mountain]

Yo greens were such a good bang for the buck last playtest

[atomic mountain]

OK that’s valid I want you to enjoy the game and I want all your friends to come join us too.

[astral tartan]

we beat orlanthis team when they were in full legendary/unique and we were all in greens/blues/purples

[verbal marsh]

stereotyping an entire community based on less then 1% you find in a random pug, congrats on stating you're a hypocrite.

[atomic mountain]

As long as you get good rolls you Gucci

[delicate schooner]

Just worried about equipment gaps making players indomitable. I've put ~8 arrows, including some headshots into a fighter sitting at a campfire and he just stood up and ran me down.

[atomic mountain]

That’s why I’ve been such a huge advocate of just making some small improvements to the trade system because if I can more efficiently turn my excess gold into at least green gear I know I have such a huge potential going into the dungeon compared to just going in with Grays

[astral tartan]

certain classes are more gear dependent than others, those 8 arrows for your class could be 1 fireball from another class

[atomic mountain]

Fighters just eat arrows. That’s what fighter class’ specialty is love

[delicate schooner]

I'm chatting with, theoretically, the people that are talking here with a possible influence on the game. If I don't learn from small sample sizes, then how else would I?

[verbal marsh]

you're talking with people who hang out here cause they love the game enough to chill and will keyboard hero the shit out of you if you don't understand that basic the principle.

[delicate schooner]

Would I have gained any ground shooting into the similarly equipped cleric beside him? Don't they both tend to eat arrows?

[proud tinsel]

Stats don't seem to sway people either. Barbs and Rangers are OP af and rogues were over nerfed you can see this in the stats and you will see it in the adjustments going into pt5

[atomic mountain]

You’re not gonna find anybody in here that says that power creep isn’t a factor in all games and it’s also not a concern in this one. What you won’t find is anyone that thinks that SBMM is a great way to counter it right now

I hate the accuracy of my audio to text on the iPhone smh

[astral tartan]

theres a reason more longbows were sold than candy. if you want a class that excels at performing when undergeared play barb or wizard. they get 1 shot potential in essentially default gear. rangers scale harder than any other class with gear imo, pros and cons to all classes.

[atomic mountain]

No. Fighters specifically have a perks that lets them take 10% less projectile damage. And they can also wear specific pieces of armor that reduce projectile damage more so than Clerics

[delicate schooner]

I will relent, to go get things done, and say that in a week of each playtest it only gets hard to fight people on the last couple days. And so, I suppose you're right in that it is not a problem until it becomes a problem. It'll either have a way to be fixed, or people will show how they feel about it by continuing to play or not.

[atomic mountain]

This game is going to break records

[verbal marsh]

later days of playtest the loot goblins exchange more loot to the mid range players who were starving cause they fed Narikk in high roller and dont use the trade hub at all themselves.

[atomic mountain]

Screenshot me saying this 🥸

Most money I made was in the last couple days

[frail basin]

no, no one voice matters anymore pleb

[astral tartan]

wheres my screenshot 1v1ing narikk as a cleric..

[atomic mountain]

[full ibex]

honestly fighting over geared people only ever really became an issue for me in high roller and high roller was cringe anyways

[verbal marsh]

like i been saying they need a mid range que mode, goblin caves in solo mode is still easy mode normal, there is nothing for mid tier players.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah something in the middle would be fine but that might just end up being what we have is normal now once they put B1 in

[verbal marsh]

I think if they forced leaderboard players not to use tradehub it would lesson the burden on highroller to get players in there.

[atomic mountain]

But that’s my point is that I want them to flesh the game as it is out more , more Maps more modes. They know what they’re doing and I think that they’ll be able to solve the majority of issues people have with the game as it currently stands

[astral tartan]

this gives me found in raid vibes from tarkov, not sure how i feel about it.

[proud tinsel]

I don't play dead by daylight so I don't know how they monetize their game. Does anyone know? Terry said in an interview that's the direction they were looking.

[atomic mountain]

They lock a new DLC characters behind money

[proud tinsel]

More maps and more modes can dilute the player base and slow things down which I think is the concern

[verbal marsh]

otherwise make a map that splits the team into solo units so players can individually show their skill before they get smashed by the overpowered team reuniting.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah I don’t know I mean goblin cave didn’t dilute the player base

[proud tinsel]

Like skins? I have seen it played I just dont own it

[astral tartan]

no like, bard comes out next playtest, they would want you to pay to unlock bard i think is what hes trying to say

[proud tinsel]

I think it did for sure 30% of the people were in there things did not slow down because the player base doubled

[verbal marsh]

Trying to think of the name of that anime that did this hrm.

[proud tinsel]

Ahh, humm that seems kinda harsh. I would rather pay 60 upfront than pay to try every new class

[atomic mountain]

Yeah they mentioned that they might want to do that for new classes make you pay for them upon release like dead by daylight but at the same time things change over there like every three days so we don’t really know what they’re gonna do or how they’re going to do it .nothing is set in stone

[full ibex]

If they monetize classes I’d be upset

[proud tinsel]

Right, I'm just trying to get an understanding...

[atomic mountain]

I have full faith in their execution and the decision making so far they haven’t made a wrong move in my eyes

Aside from nerfing wizards

[proud tinsel]

If it were an actual DLC with new mobs, new maps, new playable races and classes I would pay for that no problem

[astral tartan]

my biggest concern is cheaters. they plague every full loot game. after seeing what happened to the cycle i hope they don't put their anti cheat on the back burner

[proud tinsel]

That is a big concern for me too

[atomic mountain]

I think it’s much more likely that they’ll do something like this. So there will be a new map available or a new game mode but if you didn’t pay for the DLC you can’t go but once they release the next DLC then it’s made free for everybody

[proud tinsel]

I don't mind playing against players who are better at the game than me but ill just bail on a game with bots and hackers

[pallid lichen]

is it true that duel wielding gets the average weight of the two weapons rather then adding the weaight of both weapons?

[atomic mountain]

It’s a big priority for them to make sure they keep cheaters at bay

[proud tinsel]

I had not heard that Malo, where did you get the info?

[pallid lichen]

i dont remember. i mightve dreamed it tbh lmao

[atomic mountain]

Speed reduction is additive. So -10 on one weapon and -15 on the other = net -25 move speed

[proud tinsel]

That's my understanding as well, I have never heard otherwise

[rancid pebble]

source: I dreamed it

[astral tartan]

honestly no point dual wielding atm unless your offhand has cracked stats. meta last playtest was a 1her with no offhand

[pallid lichen]

what if dagger expert for rogue basically ignored the weight of your daggers. thats all the perk did. making it really useful for duelwielders.

[proud tinsel]

Dreams can be pretty real!

[rancid pebble]

fighters, clerics, rangers, rogues, barbs, AND wiz all had dual wield metas

[astral tartan]

what lol

[atomic mountain]

Metas =/= options

[pallid lichen]

its bascially just usefull for stacking attributes

[rancid pebble]

Fighter (perks with a myriad of options), clerics (shield and mace), ranger (same option as rogue rapier shortsword), rogues ran rapier and dagger, barb ran double hatchet, and wiz ran rondel ball

[proud tinsel]

yeah off hand with weapon damage counts on your MH as well

[astral tartan]

rogue dual wielding was meta when it was adding the damage together. thats it.

[verbal marsh]

finally found it, world trigger.

[rancid pebble]

As a rogue nah, you can combo attack faster TTK than with one weapon, plus you can have insane added damage

[proud tinsel]

Fighters get 15% weapon speed from dw

[pallid lichen]

damn we all just gonna ignore my suggestion. "what if dagger expert for rogue basically ignored the weight of your daggers. thats all the perk did. making it really useful for duelwielders."

[atomic mountain]

Speed is king, most ppl used a 2h or one 1H for damage, unless you’re a C ball Wizzy

[astral tartan]

rogue is the only class i would argue is viable dual wielding atm. move speed > everything

[proud tinsel]

fighter with dw is faster than fighter with 2h or sword and board

[astral tartan]

viable, not meta. nothing about rogue is meta atm

[atomic mountain]

Ouch lol

[pallid lichen]

oof true

[proud tinsel]

Ouch yes but true

[rancid pebble]

have you ever seen the rank one barb run dual wield?

[astral tartan]

he runs a 1her and no offhand. horseman axe only. ( narikk ) xeno ran hatchet with no offhand.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah he’s doing that for stats not because it’s more effective in combat (but usually was just one 1H)

[proud tinsel]

hatchet is off hand only

[astral tartan]

then no mainhand.

[pallid lichen]

what if dagger expert for rogue basically ignored the weight of your daggers. thats all the perk did. making it really useful for duelwielders.

[verbal marsh]

World trigger has a good example of how to do group vs group br randomly on the map divided teams battling it out to reunite to win it all. level challenges, class prefences on areas and secure points to move around and regroup, defensive offensive positioning, solo flanking and snipe perching.

[rancid pebble]

they have used dual wield lots of times, maybe you havent seen every one of the 2600 kills but dual wield is viable. How many hours you have bud?

[atomic mountain]

Idk, I can’t really say what rogues need because I didn’t really play rogue after I got them to 20 so

[astral tartan]

again, viable, everything is technically viable. and i would guess less than 100 of the 2600 kills were with anything other than a 1her.

[pallid lichen]

it definetly wouldn't be OP since daggers are already light, but it would be more useful then 5%damage.

[rancid pebble]

glad you agree with me

[atomic mountain]

You said meta (to be fair)

[astral tartan]

they did say meta🤷‍♂️

[pallid lichen]

they said "was meta" to be fair

[astral tartan]

true, but i said dual wielding is pointless atm, as in currently.

[pallid lichen]

true

[atomic mountain]

Misunderstandings like this come up when people don’t read what someone is trying to say relative to the conversation at hand and they just start typing rapidly lol We’ve all been there it’s all good

[verbal marsh]

I dont think a lot of people realized if you hold down they mouse keys the animation cycles and is faster then attempting to click like a mad man.

[atomic mountain]

Ive been guilty throw me in the dungeon

[proud tinsel]

Haha, me too throw me in dark and darker i dare ya!

[astral tartan]

i find it hilarious when people throw around their weight on opinions and ask hours when they dont agree

gen pop knows best

[atomic mountain]

POV: you’re talking to a top 10 player not knowing they’re a top 10 player

[proud tinsel]

Yeah Cat is one of the good ones tbh

[atomic mountain]

“Do you even lift brah?”

[pearl shuttle]

Hi, is there a way to see the most upvoted suggestions so far ?

[astral tartan]

if cat's dual wielding theyre 2-3 pretests behind, far from one of the good ones.

[atomic mountain]

No but maybe they’ll start to catalog them on the website we can only hope

[verbal marsh]

I liked duel would in light fighter build, you had to be good at dodging and sacrifice second wind for adrenaline rush, but its good. Just get that sprinting rush, dodge the first axe swing, and go to town.

[pearl shuttle]

Thanks

[rancid pebble]

ye, you can also 'animation cancel' sort of with some animations, makes it so I can get 3 hits off instead of 1

If you are a rogue without a BiS rapier or stilleto, you should be dual wielding, that is what Meta is

[verbal marsh]

better not to the stacking combo's do more dmg, and weapons 2nd 3rd hit combo does more then the first so if you stack combo on lighter weak 3, your 4th and 5th will be deadly.

[rancid pebble]

yea, you can do still, still, rapier, then still again

and I believe after the 3rd hit of an offhand dagger there is a stun time, so you should be able to cut that down time with another main hand attack

[verbal marsh]

rapier is a trash weapon for anyone aside from rogue tbh. its only use for ranger is that it stagger for them to run away.

[rancid pebble]

Kinda true, but even though it is worse for ranger the same principal applies, you can use it to footsie a barb as ranger, just takes a lot more hits

[verbal marsh]

yeah, im not that good

[rancid pebble]

As rogue I mainly use a rapier for combo extending/different animations OR in my second slot to deal with barbs that are buffed by a wiz and cleric

[verbal marsh]

i wanted to learn the smoke magic, someone killed me with it and i was livid.

[atomic mountain]

If you want to soak up some knowledge tips n stuff for rogue. Repoze and Depress are usually very active in here. Have you talked to them about rogue?

[rancid pebble]

Ive talked to them a bit in the rogue channel, why?

[atomic mountain]

Just curious, i don’t know much about the class myself

[verbal marsh]

when they add the bard channel can we get a shiny silver name, because bards are special.

[astral tartan]

depress hard gapped every other rogue

[atomic mountain]

Narikk did the same , does depress run solo? I need to go watch his vids

[inner thorn]

well it just make you slower 20%

[rancid pebble]

depress did not run solo usually no

[astral tartan]

i believe he runs rogue/ranger/cleric

@hollow coyote hey handsome

[hollow coyote]

rogue ranger cleric or rogue ranger mage

[astral tartan]

thought so<3

[atomic mountain]

Where is your videos @hollow coyote ?

[hollow coyote]

I am bad/lazy to do that sorry mate

[atomic mountain]

[astral tartan]

link the cleric one they just posted in the top 100 cord😘

[hollow coyote]

[livid mason]

mimic portals sounds cursed

[atomic mountain]

Well I’ll have to settle for Nevix videos

[hollow coyote]

Yes

[atomic mountain]

Lindstrom videos or no?

[hollow coyote]

🤷‍♂️ he is lazy too

[atomic mountain]

[rancid pebble]

check his twitch, I watched a lot of the stuff on there

[atomic mountain]

Who’s twitch?

[remote ruin]

twitch my balls

[mossy plank]

Gotem

[pallid lichen]

wheres bros twitch at? found it

[next valley]

@ripe glade

[buoyant glacier]

You're right. He's not shooting people that are in complete darkness. He's shooting people that SHOULD be in complete darkness or extremely near to it. It doesn't matter in the end though because the amount that normal darkness would have obscured his vision would have made a lot of those shots unlikely to land and the most people wouldn't take them because it would be so unlikely for them to land. One of the most egregious offenders is the shots through the grating on the left hand side at the beginning of the video. The game is absolutely not supposed to look like that it is specifically not supposed to be that readable.

[somber wind]

.shortinfo 1640166

[eager sable]

Suggestion from ╲⎝⧹Spazz Maticus⧸⎠╱#1106

Finding a unique items and seeing that it doesn't have a special property but instead just a few more armor points than an orange item sucks big time. You mouse over the item, you get all excited, then you check the bottom of the item description and nothing is there. It's just an "orange" in disguise. I think that removing these and keeping only actually "unique" unique items that are named is the way to go.

Right now normal unique-s just aren't all that exciting for anyone that isn't a new player. An experienced player knows that his blue/purple gear with good rolls is superior to anything that is orange or "unique" with random rolls.

Either give all unique-s unique names and properties or just remove those that don't posses any from the loot to not dilute the excitement of getting one.

Opinion:

+10

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1640166 | Submitted at · Mar 4, 2023, 8:14 PM

[buoyant glacier]

In his video there is plenty of light nearby. But light does not illuminate nearly as well as it does in that video and those shots at the person behind the grate would not have been possible. You would not have taken those shots because you would not have been able to see them clearly enough and if you did take them and they did land it would have been out of chance not out of being able to see the target.

[somber wind]

I feel like this is a big mistake unless Unique/Named gear's stats are scaled down to Legendary. It'll make named items not only vastly better than non-named but also not even stat comparable making it widen the gap of skill and power making it harder to overpowered named items with skill.

TLDR: Downvote that suggestion if you care about the health of the game being skillful and not just a stat stick simulator.

[buoyant glacier]

What you're referring to as being sketchy is exactly what I was talking about as the most egregious example. But look at the room, you literally can't argue that what he has going on should be anything other than against the rules. I also spent an unusual amount of time in that area and it looked absolutely nothing like that to me. Directly across the bridge on either side and right by, almost up against the doors on the edge of either side is where you would have enough illumination to reliably spot and shoot from one side to the other. The rest of it was at least partially obscured by darkness. A person could crouch by debris and boxes in multiple different locations and be mostly obscured by darkness. You could only see someone on the lower level in two different spots unless they were holding a torch, meanwhile for the guy in the video the lower level is almost entirely illuminated without additional light sources.

[pallid lichen]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

they could just tweak the effect curve of strength to make strength less viable. they dont need to divide its function

[buoyant glacier]

We're going to have to agree to disagree that everything else was perfectly fine. A lot of the shots were doable but for most people they absolutely wouldn't have been reliable even if they aimed just as well as that guy did because of being obscured by darkness. The area in that video looked absolutely nothing like it did to me or anyone I played with or anyone else I've spoken with. I even looked up other streamers and saw that room and it never looked anything like what it does in this guy's video. None of what he had in that room was a "bit brighter" compared to me and what my crew have seen or what appears on other people's screens when they're streaming it was almost twice as bright if not more.

[pallid lichen]

the bridege looks like that to anyone who had their game brightness maxed. i know becasue thats how the bridge looked to me.

[buoyant glacier]

The bridge itself in the center of the room isn't the problem.

[pallid lichen]

i know im takling about the parrallel paths. ive seen that archer clip, the game looked like that for me, all i did wa max my game brightness.

yeah i agree. but they should proabbly lower the disparirty betweenn default brightness and max brightness

[pallid lichen]

it sounds reasonable to me idk.

or darker. probably should lower the max brightness.

alot of really angry people think that that guy was using some extrnal thing to get the game brighter lol. its literally just the game settings.

well figure it out.

[somber wind]

Named items base stats shouldn't be inherently better unless we want named items to be the only viable items.

[obsidian ferry]

none cares that you cant see pal

[pallid lichen]

well named items should be the "best" the vast majority of the time. dont you think? Hes basically saying get rid of named weapons that have 0 attributes, and hes considering givign them predetrmined attributes i think, that sounds very reasonable.

[somber wind]

Yes and just by having an effect they are, if you also boost the stats the divide becomes too large and it hurts skillful gameplay between lesser geared players and named geared players.

In reply to your edit: Same as I just said.

It still provides an unintentional damage boost

Named gear is staying at it's current drop rate which means less uniques since all basic uniques would be removed which means items with comparable damage become rarer.

If you increase the rate it drops to be how normal uniques drop it floods the game and devalues that gear causing it to be very common to see things like Fulgor. The best option if we want to go this route is to lower base damage to that of Legendary for Named items if they're the only uniques.

[pallid lichen]

i think hes saying to make sure thy don't have horrible stats. not to say that the sats need to be god rolls. i think thats fair. it makes them feel respectable. I dont mind rare named weapons being considered the best the vast majority of the time. With only god rolls competing with them. i think that sounds like a cool dichotomy.

[somber wind]

I'm not talking about the rolls at all. I'm talking about how base damage scales with rarity.

[pallid lichen]

HEs talking about the rolls of named weapons in his post.

[somber wind]

How do you get that thought? "Finding a unique items and seeing that it doesn't have a special property but instead just a few more armor points than an orange item sucks big time. " and "I think that removing these and keeping only actually "unique" unique items that are named is the way to go."

How is that talking about rolls and not special effects on the item?

[amber solstice]

There is like infinite balancing they could do with named items. Unique modifiers that aren't specifically just huge damage increases would probably be nice. Having the unique mod be one of the mods instead of an additional mod would curb the power level a bit. But they don't seem to have any intention of them being actually balanced at all, just cool.

[pallid lichen]

oh so is he saying all uniques should hav special properties, like the viola has? i mis understood his post somehow. but i think istill agree. all uniques should have special properties, or else why not just keep them as legenderies?

[somber wind]

I'm fine with them being exceptionally strong but keeping their base item fair with the special effect added on is important so if you know what the item does you have counterplay by being better then the person using the named weapon.

[somber wind]

They're saying get rid of NON-Named uniques and ONLY have NAMED ones aka stuff like Viola. I agree with it too BUT Uniques BASE STATS need to be Legendary since there is no longer basic Uniques to allow for actual counterplay to exist for non-named gear.

[pallid lichen]

yeah he wants special property/named uniques to be the only unique rarity items. I agree with that.

[somber wind]

I agree with that as well BUT it provides a balance issue that doesn't exist currently.

[pallid lichen]

oh i agree with you here. but i think you both could be right. You're not really disagreeing. have all uniques be named and have special properties but their base stats are the same as legendaries.

[somber wind]

Yeah I don't dislike his idea and I do like it, the problem is just that the problem needs to be taken into account and not ignored.

If we don't adjust the base stats of named items to be the same as legendary then we have a wider gap between basic gear and named gear than we do now.

[pallid lichen]

the problem of too much scaling of high-end weapons?

edit: yeah i see that

[somber wind]

It'd increase the divide/scaling of high-end weapons by removing the stepping stone of non-named uniques since obviously the rate of named items entering the game wouldn't increase it'd stay the same we'd just lose non-named uniques and be getting Legendaries more often.

[amber solstice]

I think the intention is for all of the uniques to be named and have 1 of every item. They just haven't created them all yet.

[pallid lichen]

i suspect thats waht they had planeed, but need more development time to create enough uniques to have that system.

[signal iris]

I think it would be better to just shorten the gap between the worst and best items. The challenge is doing that in such a way as to not make naked starter be the overall best option.

[somber wind]

Which I agree with we just need to acknowledge that base stats being higher in addition to their passive/active effects is a game balance problem.

[amber solstice]

I don't think I've seen a unique of an item that already has a named version? but maybe one of the big farmers can correct me?

[pallid lichen]

yeha they definetly dont need more base effectivness.

[modest crater]

If rangers have to start charging their shots then they should do 2x headshot dmg for being able to line it up after moving 👍🏻

[mental lance]

Uniques rn should be colored red and named items should be the color of uniques imo

[buoyant glacier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihF6fxBtZdc&t=48s this is what the game is intended to look like. The first part after the black and white intro is combat in the room with elevated but not maxed brightness. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/117dqyi/posting_a_ranger_clip_everyday_until_early_access/ This is the original clip we were debating.

[inner ember]

It's one of the brightest areas in the game, and he said in the thread all he's done is max out in-game settings

I don't know if it's possible to restrict people from changing colour settings in their graphics card or through a filter program

[buoyant glacier]

He says that, but you can look at some of his other clips and see distinct difference in brightness. The only surefire way to make sure it doesn't happen is a system for volumetric darkness. Which isn't an easy add. There are things that can be done though, including just manual policing.

[inner ember]

https://youtu.be/k0NYIW_i_sk

This video from SoBadStrange starts in the same area and looks mostly the same. You have to take the time to turn the torches off

[pallid lichen]

you can tell SoBad Strange is somewhere inbetween them. With So bad starnge settings some spots that look pitch balck in clip 1 , are visable. i would say sobad starnge settings should be the default

[buoyant glacier]

That clips is also pretty damn bright tbh, but thats not as extreme as the one I linked.

[inner ember]

Yeah I agree it might not be as bad from SoBad Strange

[inner ember]

Any ideas how to stop people changing something fundamentally customisable?

[pallid lichen]

that so bad starnge clip looks like it should be the sweetspot. the brightest setings should be only slightly brighter then his. and lowest settings could reach 1st guys clip.

[buoyant glacier]

Limit the range that a brightness slider can go. Add in pitch filters that interact with rendering based on light level.. You can also add a fog system that limits how much more brightness can help. I dont have the exact solution, I just know something HAS to be done about it.

[inner ember]

Honestly unless they find some way to guarantee everyone is playing with the same brightness cap I'm going to be maxing it in every way I can. Competitive games force you to join the status quo

[deep steeple]

the shadows are hard programmed into rendering, brightness settings do not affect them in game

[rocky oar]

Brightness only really helps with places that are already lit up or dimmly lit. If you go into a room with torches turned off though and it's dark, even with brightness maxed you straight up can't see anything and anyone that may be hiding in the dark.

[white cliff]

@signal lake 👋 Want to weigh in here?

[inner ember]

I wasn't calling him out just to be clear

[mental lance]

What does rust do to make it impossible to see in darkness even with gamma cranked?

[white cliff]

I know, but if you’re referencing his video you might as well ask him lol. He’s a nice guy.

[buoyant glacier]

IDK how anyone can compare those two clips and not have their jaw hit the floor.. But you do you.. Nearly everything about that clip is sketchy.

[inner ember]

GeForce let's you make individual game filters 🥸

[atomic mountain]

Calm yourself my son

[white cliff]

I’m making the game light and lighter because I’m scared of the dark.

[inner ember]

All of Stetson's messages are very harshly worded, bit of a fella

I want to see what the game looks like from that Ranger's pov in another area

[lusty ruin]

Thoughts on my suggestion?

[inner ember]

Also the game has invisibility and endless cover, the devs didn't intend for people to rely too much on darker areas to completely hide you. Throwing torches supremacy

[white cliff]

I want fast and easy intractable UI not really a housing system. It seems cool but just not worth the development like most suggestions.

[mental lance]

I don't rely on anything except stealth to hide me. I know there's people out there with cranked gamma that have spotted me in completely dark areas.

[rocky oar]

Idk how people complaing about he brightness thing cause I max my brightness and can't see in dark areas where there aren't torches lit at all. It's freaking terrifying

[inner ember]

Perfectly wrote my thoughts. Cool idea and would be nice but the dev time required would be insane

[lusty ruin]

you would have the option of using the regular menu, it would be more to have an area you can kinda make your own and immerse yourself in

[white cliff]

I just don’t think it’s warranted, people really can’t discern MMO and extraction looter because it’s fantasy based, and that’s concerning.

[lusty ruin]

Also gives the devs a chance to sell cosmetics

[inner ember]

They can do that anywhere lol

[lusty ruin]

like for the horse you ride into town, cool looking houses to buy, unique looking blacksmith/dummies

[white cliff]

Much like this game has already proved, making something fun and functional will beat out triple studios controlled by corporate execs.

And that should always come before monetization.

[inner ember]

People need to keep in mind opportunity cost and the current state of the game. They're working on stuff like new classes, new maps, skill trees.

[lusty ruin]

I think you guys are laboring under the impression I want this in immediately, I want the core game to be complete first before anything like this is added

[atomic mountain]

A horse?

[mossy ruin]

I dont get how players are so beaten down and enslaved by slippery slope monetization that they think they want it or a game should add it. :(

[inner ember]

Unfortunately we aren't inside you head and didn't know that

[lusty ruin]

read the suggestion

[mental lance]

why tf would i pay for a horse that only I can see

[atomic mountain]

The only horse I want is a little wooden one that pops up in between my legs when I put away my weapons to run around the dungeon like a little sissy

[inner ember]

I want armour with a magnificent codpiece
And yes it could look like a horse or a unicorn

[atomic mountain]

Link it

[white cliff]

It’s the most recent one.

[lusty ruin]

^

[atomic mountain]

TLDR

[white cliff]

TLDR, training ground, player housing, marketable cosmetics.

[inner ember]

Add a training area that looks pretty and rural

[atomic mountain]

All that sounds cool

[lusty ruin]

with a lot of customizable features that circumvent the menu

[inner ember]

Dark and darker × cottagecore fantasy

[lusty ruin]

but you can use the regular menu if you want to

[inner ember]

Personally I'm fine with the current menu but would like a tavern that has some stuff to do, and with the regular 18 players so you can chat and trade if you want. But I understand that rings the MMO alarm bells, fine without it, but I like the idea of chill moments

[lusty ruin]

^ that's really what it's about, a moment you can enjoy that isn't the chaos of the game itself

[atomic mountain]

I like where it’s coming from in that sense

Maybe we get static type of Tavern Gathering Hall, would be a cool place to chill (and test stuff)

[lusty ruin]

I'd love to like, play chess in the lobby or something, cornhole in the corner or darts, some shit.

Usually either race to check headshot damage or go pet dog currently.

[inner ember]

It's a pretty hefty thing to add so the devs would have to really want it. If that's not the direction they have in mind then that's cool

[lusty ruin]

Yeah, I'm fine either way, idk, just hope they have ideas like that in the future, counter act the chaos a little bit.

[deep steeple]

my man is scared of the dark lol, but yeah time to abuse it so devs find a way to fix it :)

[neat horizon]

#d-and-d-suggestions message what are your thoughts

[lofty yew]

Hey what would you guys say about arcane lock from dungeons and dragons as a spell for wizards ?

[neat horizon]

that woulds be interesting but kinda useless

[amber solstice]

Cleanse is already incredibly popular, at least for bossing. Clerics are already the best class for surviving in the swarm, and surviving longer in the storm is generally an unpopular opinion.

[mental lance]

What if cleanse made you immune from debuffs for a short period.

[amber solstice]

That's a pretty huge increase in power level and reduction in using it in a skillful way.

[mental lance]

Could increase the spell cost

Would be cool if there was some spellsteal ability that takes the buffs from other players. Might make the buffball meta a little bit more tolerable

[dull fulcrum]

"What if you could use a torch on a dead enemy and use him as a campfire"

[amber solstice]

Wizards have slow, clerics have bind, every single class has ranged options to hit the barb to slow them or kill them. Most wizards and clerics don't pick those or attempt to use them for varying reasons. Most players don't use thrown consumables to their advantage or just immediately panic and run until they die. Most teams getting absolutely obliterated in an instant weren't listening or looking or are just so under geared and/or under skilled that it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Of the 1.9mil players, whats the average hours played so far? 10 maybe? You can look at any game in infancy and see how drastic player skill rises with time. You can even look at videos of previous playtests. Each one is basically a different game when it comes to player skill.

That being said spellsteal is one of my favorite abilities ever made.

[mental lance]

spellsteal is hella fun

[signal lake]

Fill me in on the argument im streaming atm but i do like adding weight 🍻🙌🙌

[pallid lichen]

we were discussing the brightness issue. how bright should your settings allow you to make the game. some clip going around with max in game brightness. and compared to the darkest settings its night and day.

[rancid pebble]

There will always be external ways to process it though, similar argument to stash sizes. If you limit the average player those that want to abuse it will have an easier time

[pallid lichen]

#suggestion-discussion message this comment has the two clips.

[mental lance]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

youd just keep a crossbow in your inventory and equip it when you need to use it

[harsh belfry]

I’ve got a discord general use question. Is it possible to auto scroll to the last reply I was tagged in or to see a list off all the reply’s I’m tagged in somewhere?

[amber solstice]

Search and mentions user option. "mentions:" is the command.

[smoky yoke]

also by using the "inbox" and "mentions" function works well

[harsh belfry]

Omfg it’s just that little @ sign tab on mobile. FML how long has that been there?

[inner ember]

Someone posted a reddit post of a ranger with pretty insane brightness settings in the gap bridge area.
Found here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/117dqyi/posting_a_ranger_clip_everyday_until_early_access/

I posted your most recent chaos mage video, which I enjoyed but it popped into my head because the start of the video is in the same area, and you have pretty decent visibility - but not to the same extent.
We're discussing the current condition of internal and external brightness settings giving an advantage.

[proud tinsel]

You can do things to brighten it when editing in post though right, just because we see it like that does not mean thats how he saw it live, also they did seem to darken it halfway though this playtest

[harsh belfry]

I thought playtest one was all about them dialing in the darkness.

[proud tinsel]

I was not in playtest 1

[harsh belfry]

Neither was I, I’m referring to a dev interview

[proud tinsel]

Yeah I think they have been tweaking it in and outside of every playtest

[harsh belfry]

I see, I personally haven’t noticed it changing.

[dull fulcrum]

"Take a look at this. What do you think, should it be dark... or darker?"

[proud tinsel]

haha

[smoky yoke]

you could also make a filter on obs just for the viewers, or if a video just as effect when doing post edit yea, not necessarily when playing
I honestly think that even with brightness/gamma set to max the game is very still dark

[inner ember]

The way he was arguing with people in the reddit thread I don't imagine that was the case. If it was just an obs thing then he probably would have said it right

[smoky yoke]

oh I honestly did not read the entire conversation
what happened? 🤔

[inner ember]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/117dqyi/posting_a_ranger_clip_everyday_until_early_access/

He is being called out but still replies pretty harshly

His words "Don't want to gimp myself in a competitive game"

[proud tinsel]

I mean I don't either

So i turn my gamma to max but it makes like no diff

[smoky yoke]

yea actually setting gamma or brightness or even both to the game, the game is very dark
so probably, perhaps must be something else
but even nvidia filters ect are a thing integrated in gpu iirc or for example reshade that is whitelisted by many anticheats

[slate tartan]

If people need an advantage to play just let them, not much we can do about it, up to the devs

[smoky yoke]

I don't like it either when people try to seek for advantages like that to be honest
i put my brightness to normal and gamma as well
darkness is part of the game, which is cool

others feel free to max their brightness

[smoky yoke]

yea pretty much

[somber wind]

I was thinking of weapons to expand Cleric and there's a few weapons that I think would fit and wouldn't be just Cleric except the 1st one, what do people think of this?:

* Horseman's Pick (Fighter, Cleric); Very close range weapon. Inherent X% Armor Piercing (Amount to be balanced by Ironmace).
* Broadsword (Fighter, Cleric); One handed. Wide left and right swings.
* Flail (Cleric, Fighter); Physics activated ball affected by player movement. The skill of using the weapon is in knowing how to move with it to swing it and not miss. Should have high base damage and have an inherent X% Armor Penetration (Amount to be balanced by Ironmace).

[proud tinsel]

I can't get my game to look like that with normal game settings, nor is it intended too look like that with game settings and its talked about in several interviews with the Terry

[slate tartan]

I'm sure the devs have something in mind to counter it, they have spoken about it so we know they are aware

[proud tinsel]

I love flails but it will never happen, the physics is too hard

[somber wind]

I would hope it'd be something like how Let It Die did it where the game just lets it free hang and you can easily miss with it because you have to move with it in mind.

[proud tinsel]

How would the hit box work and how would you dodge the swing?

[junior hawk]

I would like to get a war hammer of some sort. Which is nothing but a big Horseman's Pick.
War Maul is cool and all, but a war hammeris realy nice

[somber wind]

So the hitbox would be parented to the ball itself and the hitbox would only be active during an attack and only be allowed to hit each player it collides with 1 time.

[proud tinsel]

Yeah I think that would be epic, I would not hold my breath though

[somber wind]

Like it could physically tap someone twice but deal damage 1 time.

It would reward people who learn the game's physics system so moving up and turning into the hit to make it faster would be good. Moving backwards before an attack to have it swing accurately etc.

[junior hawk]

The problem with chain weapons is that they will circle around objectives in reality.
Like if you block with a sword, the spiked ball of the flail will cirle around the sword and hit the wielder.
Those physics could bring many bugs. I can already imagine you weapon getting stuck on something

[somber wind]

I'mma be honest, I was thinking the chain shouldn't have a physbox to avoid that exact issue; only the ball. Most games with flails that are physics activated do that to avoid it. @junior hawk

[smoky yoke]

I like, more weapons more various gameplay

[smoky yoke]

if paladin would be really a thing, maybe some of these weapons could be for paladin perhaps

and paladin in DnD iirc, it is a mixture of fighter and cleric

[amber solstice]

The main balance considerations for this game are range and attack patterns. New weapons have to be unique enough to have their own identify while falling within the intended restrictions of the class. What kind of attack pattern do you want that's new? Does it already exist? Just a much shorter falchion? Your broadsword is basically just a falchion. Flail could definitely be interesting.

[proud tinsel]

Scimitar should be put in with druid but it could be just a copy pasta of arming or falchion

[somber wind]

The Broadsword I was hoping to see it being the only 1 handed weapon that the Fighter and Cleric would have that is only wide repeated swings.

Horseman's Pick is intended as an overhead one hand.

Flail is ment to be a little terrifying in itself due to needing to intimately know it to understand it's movement but also alot of skill to use it adequately and not just screw yourself into missing with it.

[inner ember]

I'm trying to live my best Witch King life

[fiery ledge]

Assuming we're talking about the same flail, maybe RMB charges a windup/while holding a shield also blocks, pressing lmb releases the swing, etc. I'm leery of the flail and new weapons, I think there's a lot of way for time and energy to just disappear.

[somber wind]

I'd be fine with that addition, maybe instead of RMB charge and LMB releases it could be that you hold down attack to swing it then you let go of it to attack, could also have a minimum swing time before it's "up to speed". Could also have a movement speed reduction while swinging it.

[smoky yoke]

i would like that if holding LMB would just make the flail rotate it around and as soon you release it, then you can release the attack

while having the ability to do light attacks, swinging also

[fiery ledge]

Its a slow weapon, the shield hold needs to be apart of it imho because of how punishing it is to use it while also maintaining "momentum" and control over your torso's radial inertia, and i recommend keeping the two binds separate because the player deserves an animation cancel that provides a clean animation rather than say the seizures performed while pressing LMB/RMB in some fast fashion with weapons like longsword.

like, using the flail should have so many negative side effects to its user - from restraining how fast you can walk to the side, let alone move in any direction before the rotations offset your balance

but then the conversation for me goes back to, well how real does this game need to be before its no fun for anyone 🙂

[somber wind]

IRL you can cancel a flail swing, you need to deal with it that's why I think it should be 1 button and yes as I said it should hamper your movement speed when swinging it. Active swinging should NOT beable to deal damage until you let it go.

[rugged pilot]

Flail was also a clowns weapon basically unusable in a tight space, nevermind unusable in a corridor beside others

[somber wind]

Exactly, I think it being able to clink on things should be a major downside to it.

In total: Wildness of the ball, Clinking, Movement speed reduction while swinging. Is all a trade for a high base damage and some amount of armor penetration like I said in the original.

[white cliff]

Super great conversation, I’m always wondering what people want for weapons. I really want to 3D model more weapons besides the morningstar I did so this is helpful.

[pallid lichen]

you 3d modeled the morning star?

[white cliff]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/11cnbbn/the_unholy_mockery_unique_morning_star_fan_art/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Not the morning star, but my own rendition.

[pallid lichen]

woah that looks sick dude

[white cliff]

Thanks, I want to do more. Like I said I knowing what weapons people want to see is helpful.

[pallid lichen]

imagine they add that to the game. id shit my pants if i see a cleric running up to me with that.

[white cliff]

Yeah haha.

@harsh belfry I don’t really think all class needs its own channel because you can decide where to sell it based on rolls.

[harsh belfry]

You try selling gloves or boots at all this last test?

[white cliff]

Yeah, sold just fine?

[harsh belfry]

Guess I should have added “gear that is not rings or necklaces” in there as well

Trying to buy gloves or boots that’s not class restricted or a regal gameson is extremely time consuming when compared to like buying a weapon or any gear that has a class restriction on it, simply because the sellers are so spread out.

[white cliff]

I mean if it’s in the wrong place it won’t sell, and I bought my regal gamb pretty quickly. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I’d rather not sort through an all class channel looking through rolls.

[harsh belfry]

The buyer should have a place to go to buy gear that has no class restriction. As is there’s just to many channels for sellers to be in that it’s ridiculous when compared to the time it takes to trade class based gear

[white cliff]

Yes I understand what you’re saying, but they should find the proper channels based on the rolls on the item. Plus you can just sort anyways, I had no trouble finding boots or any items you listed.

[amber solstice]

The originally had what, weapon, armor, utility, misc? Then went to classes, utility, misc? Slots or possibly weapons, class specific armor, armor, utility, misc might be the next iteration.

[white cliff]

Class specific sorting was one of my suggestions. 😊

[harsh belfry]

There’s two filters going on that makes this a nonsense solution. I the buyer should not be punished because the seller doesn’t know what rolls my class is looking for.

[white cliff]

You’re already getting punished by people who are selling trash why is this any different and why does it require another channel.

Whose out here buying interaction speed greens?

[amber solstice]

We mine hard out here.

[harsh belfry]

I just vendired any gloves or boots I found because it was needlessly convoluted to try and find a buyer for them even though they are third place in value behind weapons and jewelry because no move speed penalty.

[white cliff]

Needlessly convoluted as compared to listing any other item? I’m just not following I guess, sorry I’m not convinced.

[amber solstice]

I spent so much time swapping through all the channels trying to buy gloves and legs and only seeing this person is already trading...

[white cliff]

I swear my experiences are always so isolated I never had any problems trading.

Thought it be fair I only trade for purples and above so.

Who knows.

[amber solstice]

I pretty much only tried buying gloves/legs/rings. Candy really artificially deflated weapon and chest value/scarcity. Loot pools and competition are so wildly different depending on the slot. I always had too many good boots/ammies/weapon/chest.

[mental lance]

good gloves and boots were so hard to find. think im going to spend most of next playtest making ruby/cobalt boots/gloves

[amber solstice]

Also what classes did you buy high end stuff for? Cleric/wizard stuff was basically free. Phys dps stuff was what I tried to buy.

[white cliff]

Cleric high end yeah.

[harsh belfry]

If I find an item I want to sell and it can only be used by one class regardless of mods then that’s two descission filters that I don’t need to account for when picking a place to find buyers. If I find a piece of gear that has the ability to be used by two different classes then the place I can find a buyer is now dispersed across two channels. This means I have a starting 50/50 chance of finding a buyer but I can skew those results in my favor if I understand the mods that are desired by which class. This problem becomes ludicrous when applied to gear that can be worn by ALL classes and scales with the number of mods on the item. @white cliff

[mental lance]

It's also annoying to constantly switch between channels

[harsh belfry]

This problem is also not solved by the addition of a mod filter, it COULD be solved by switching the current multi-channel trade system into a blanket single channel entry that is then filtered on the buyers side by gear that they can equip on top of all the other filters

[amber solstice]

Yeah it's like aisles in any store or market. Not a single one puts half of something in one aisle and half in the other. It just doesnt make sense.

[harsh belfry]

I will repost in 6 hrs with more clarification.

[harsh belfry]

To give this problem a little perspective, which channel would you sell classless boots that have only +move speed or +All Attribute? What about if they have both?

[amber solstice]

It's an easy fix. No overlapping trade categories. It makes common sense and is a significant quality of life improvement. The issue is that "lol old mmo runescape feels are best, harder is always better" is considered a valid argument.

[abstract swallow]

seems like a bit of a disingenuous way to frame intentionally social mechanics like trade and barter

[harsh belfry]

I like the channel system and want it stay this way at its core but the devs have shown there willingness to add channels as can be seen when candys became there own channel. I feel the classless channel is a thing that should be there right now but isn’t, like a phantom limb.

[amber solstice]

I'm not attacking social mechanics like trade and barter. I'm attacking some of arguments used to defend some of the more unenjoyable facets of the current system. I understand that trading and social interaction are the intended pillars of the system. I'm not opposed to making sure those are maintained and promoted. What percentage of trades even have any actual interaction? There are ways to add more interaction. Where is the line of how much intentional lack of quality of life is good? Can you add features to promote your pillars that feel good instead of ones that feel bad?

[abstract swallow]

if it's any consolation that was an intentionally inflammatory remark, but you articulated the actual point you meant to make well

[granite plinth]

Why is there a lot of downvotes to the suggestion of renaming the w-word class to caster?

[abstract swallow]

because the developers are korean, they enjoy the use of slurs

[amber solstice]

Definitely didn't see it as inflammatory. We are all here just discussing because we can't play lol.

[proud tinsel]

Is braukul a troll or are these people serious? Either way I guess I need to get out my block for more people

[white cliff]

Ive had him blocked for three PT’s he’s a troll, yes.

[proud tinsel]

cool, done

[amber solstice]

If there was no 2k character limit I'd probably be on page 600 of my dissertation with 0 comments in this discord yet. Lol

[harsh belfry]

There’s a character limit to discord….?

[abstract swallow]

you remind me a lot of Kurt, the guy who wrote the big one-shot meta post
let us know when you're gonna hit the community with your inevitable manifesto, I love reading shit like that

[amber solstice]

I hit it basically every time I type and never get to discuss like 95% of what I originally planned to. Lol

And I know it's all too long for most people to bother reading.

Dark and Darker literally ruined all other games for me and then disappeared. Like 10 days of heroine and cya in 2 months. Enjoy the withdrawal. Lol

[harsh belfry]

Tbh, this is a phenomenal method to sell preorders for a game.

[abstract swallow]

that's how it always is, the first hit's free
now to just wait and see how things turn out, and hopefully we get the hardcore dungeon-crawler they first pitched

[amber solstice]

I have a new found respect for people struggling with addiction. That's for sure.

[abstract swallow]

you really don't know how hard it is until you've got that compromised brainrot yourself, even for something silly like this

[amber solstice]

I'd be robbing grandmas if it got me dark and darker early...

It's the strangest sensation to literally have no possible way of getting something and want it more than anything.

[abstract swallow]

you could always take up smoking and gambling to take the edge off
y'know, the healthy alternatives

[ashen badge]

whats wrong with Wizard

[granite plinth]

Its been suggested that the name is influenced by the Harry Potter(which is a universe about w-words) universe so JK Rowling...

[ashen badge]

Ok cool its a cool game. Harry Potter universe is fun
whats the issue

[granite plinth]

the author of wizards universe is transphobic and has made very offensive remarks about trans identifying people

[ashen badge]

I hope youre not suggesting JK Rowling invented the word "Wizard"

[dull fulcrum]

He's just trolling. Ignore/block.

[granite plinth]

She has made significant contributions to what a w-word is and does. which is problematic since how do we know if homophobia and transphobia are now an identity of what a w-word is

[amber solstice]

Good thing this game isnt set it England or on earth.

[granite plinth]

the w-word universe uses sticks, not brooms, so brooms are fine.
The problem with this is it adds validation to wizards which encourages the sales of JK Rowling merch and books

[amber solstice]

He just wants it changed to Wizaard.

[granite plinth]

There is caster, sourcerer, witch, etc, why w-word?

[amber solstice]

We could use magic instead of wooden handles for the weapons.

[thorn ivy]

Stop responding to the troll

[dull fulcrum]

Do it in DMs then.

[amber solstice]

Sobadstrange bout to talk to us about some lighting.

[granite plinth]

name calling.. smh. If you dont want to listen, dont. all im saying is the use of the w-word can be problematic as the creator of the w-word universe is a bigot. if you dont want to listen, its up to u. im ending it here.

[signal lake]

@pallid lichen ah thank you for the synopsis! Yeah I play on default because it makes the game way more fun and spooky but I have seen a bunch of other streamers with their brightness cranked 🙌
In the two clips the ranger clearly has a massive advantage 🥱🔥 @white cliff

[thorn ivy]

You're being trolled. He wants a reaction. He already knows his shit is dumb. That's why he's using it to provoke a reaction. Block and move on.

He's not here to learn and you mocking him makes no difference though. He's here to get attention.

[amber solstice]

Trolls need love too.

[harsh belfry]

Tapping Brau’kul’s name to block him causes my discord client to crash. Is this happening to anyone else?

[inner ember]

I imagine his profile has a crashing gif attached to it

[abstract swallow]

That's why I specified the 'center' 6 rarities, as Brown("Junk") and Unique have significantly different jumps from the usual +16~20%

elaborate

[cobalt obsidian]

Definitely was not extremely common.

A purple weapon was almost always better than green and better than blue most of the time. Shitty purples do exist.

[abstract swallow]

the suggestion is purely in regards to the base Weapon Damage and Armor Class values on weapons and armor, not Modifiers, which scale linearly with Rarity

[amber solstice]

Due to % based increases, rarity for damage/ac scale better than linearly in most scenarios.

[abstract swallow]

I don't disagree, I'm just referring specifically to the Rarity Step Increase in those base values in that suggestion

[ashen badge]

Yes and no
depends on the weapon and the modifiers,
1, youre jumping 2 rarities to get "usually better"
That shouldnt even exist. A purple should 90% of the time be better than a blue, period.
The reason its so much easier to have a better blue than purple is because you get so many more blues,
the current RNG modifier system alongside having a rarity based system just dont go together and it makes rarity almost entirely obsolete

[cobalt obsidian]

the base damage is better 98% of the time .. A purple is better than a green almost always in the weapon department where it matters most.

Rng on the stats is fine. What do you want to do, eliminate that? That sounds boring.

Just so we are clear. A purple bow with a base damage of 44 and a blue bow with a base damage of 40. The purple is almost always going to win even with shittier stats

😄

[abstract swallow]

you would kind of have a point with Armor, which has its own secondary scaling/diminishing returns via AC, but you're completely wrong in terms of weapons
when even moderately geared a single weapon Rarity step can yield increases of 8 to 20+ damage after modifiers, because it's a linear increase to the base value itself
it takes several overlapping modifiers to compare to just the higher Rarity weapon's base damage increase, without it having any modifiers

[cobalt obsidian]

Yeah well weapons are the most important piece of gear 🤷🏻‍♂️ idc about armor. I'll take green armor if it has move speed on it.

What did I say that was false?

lelel

A high base damage roll on a blue recurve was 40 - 41...

Purples would regularly roll 43 - 44 😄

THATS a blue bow with +3 damage / true damage Woooaahhh ✅

Bro what did I say that was false

You are just autistically screeching with obvious hyperbole.

I gotta go watch jon jones

[graceful frost]

If we talking about damage attributes, I only really think its an issue for armor. Armor is just if you get lucky with good attributes, even a unique can be complete trash if you don't get good attributes. I think the attributes on weapons are fine, since you don't need good attributes for it to be worth using, since it goes up in damage with rarity. Yes armor goes up in dr but its barely any

[amber solstice]

Rarity dictating power is entirely personal preference and seems counter to the current implementation. Higher rarity has the potential for more power, and more disappointment. Why focus on reducing specifically weapon damage/ac and not the external factors on gear or perks or attributes?

[graceful frost]

im not talkin about only weapon dmg, not sure if your refering to someone else though

I just think the fact that a blue can be better than a unique with just 1 good attribute is kinda stupid. Yes higher rarity has more attribute slots, but most of the time the amount of slots is less than how much rarer it is. for example a blue has 2 attribute slots, a unique has 5, but a blue is more than 3 times as common as a unique, so the 5 slots don't rlly matter on a unique

[thorn ivy]

When people say they want auction house they mean just buy outs

[amber solstice]

I enjoy that a blue can be better than a unique. It allows for significantly more satisfying gameplay for people that arent just highroller bossing. I can definitely see the disappointment factor of getting bad legendaries. Maybe it's optimism or being desensitized to it or just that I expect most loot to suck. What if they just removed rarity all together and you just rolled damage and had the same percantage chance of the extra mod as the chances currently for rarity? Essentially the same thing, just no colors?

[mental lance]

good blues also means it's easier for newer players to get competitive gear

[harsh belfry]

Rarity = max mod count creates actually rare items instead of “brighter color is better”. If you only care about 2-3 stats then blue/purp is all you need.

[atomic mountain]

https://youtu.be/D48hSs2zZT8

How do y’all feel about the itemization elements in Diablo 4? Some elements could be really interesting for D&D, like Affixes

[harsh belfry]

@quaint elm did you know that the darkness outside the circle is not just “darkness” but a swarm? Those black swirly particle effects on your screen are the swarm actively blocking your vision, not just plain old darkness.

[quaint elm]

yes i did. they are just an annoyance that contributes in no meaningful way. the circle is serving its function perfectly fine, making it harder to see doesn't need to be tacked on top of it.

[verbal marsh]

pretty sure skyrim did item retextures based on location, they should be stating skill damage, 2nd weapon option is becoming common, i hate boe bop systems.. - 4 min into video now.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah that system seems neat. But likely wouldn’t come into play unless they flesh out the map/region aspect much much more. Sounds like a lot of work 😅
(I think does want to add depth to the Rarity of gear looking much more distinct like they did with Rubysilver)

[verbal marsh]

think d4 is going for an open world feel in its gameplay element. affixes is a common theme in game, quality system seems solid but nothing special, don't care for the inventory system just means you'll be more then overwhelmed with junk had they not organized it, imagine mounts is just to catch up to someone already deep into instance or return where you left off nothing special, farming for specific drops is to be expected in a mmo, - 11 min in now.

[atomic mountain]

I dig the personal loot system (for bosses) but also like that there’s more of a player interaction/emotional connection being made when you have to discuss who’s going to take what I’m D&D

[graceful frost]

In that case rarity just doesn't matter. cause whats the point of higher rarity when you are better off just waiting for a low rarity thing with better attributes. Its not even like its a low chance, it is more common to get a blue with better attributes than a unique or legendary, just cause a blue is much more common. In armor you are pretty much only looking at attributes for pretty much every class

just getting higher rarity stuff doesn't feel fun or rewarding because it is all just rng. Unless your like boss farming or b3 high roller farming you aren't gonna be getting legendaries that often, and if there rarity having you get one and have it be borderline useless cause of attributes is a bit dumb and not rewarding. Tbh it makes high roller have less of a reason to play it. I mostly played it for the chance to get better gear from killing people., the better gear from enemies didn't feel worth it cause it is all dependent on attributes. Your better off hunting blues in normal and looking for plus damage or rlly anything good.

[verbal marsh]

weapons system doesnt seem like anything new, individualized loot is to be expected in diablo style gameplay now, I do like how they're doing magic resist cause a shirt is always better then bare skin. - fini

Usable elements: Organized affix distribution, and how magic resist is calculated.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah coupling the phys with magic resist was interesting

[harsh belfry]

Yeah but once you get yourself kitted up in blues and purps that have the mods you want legendaries become the next path of progression. Legendaries also have there base armor/dmg increased. This loot curve of mvp loot being found in blues and purps more commonly then in rares or legendaries means that the player base all kind of hangs out in the same power level plateau.

[verbal marsh]

i like how d4 said the fix affix is basically utility, and it isnt until you get rare that you have chance of damage increase.

[graceful frost]

I mean im not talkin about the weapons cause the extra dmg is fine. But in armor the extra defense is borderline nothing. Like its 6 more armor rating or something like that from blue to unique with a cap. and thats gonna do almost nothing for you. The thing is legendaries don't rlly need to become the next path unless your going for the very small chance of the +5 weapon dmg +4 true weapon dmg +3 all and stuff like that all in one. In every extremely kitted person video they still have a good amount of purps and blues cause of the attributes. Just higher rarity feels borderline meaningless. I like attributes but there should be some reason for me to go for higher rarity, and some rewarding factor to getting one other than 1 percent more dr

[verbal marsh]

would make more sense if greens were more utility enhancement, blues the start of damage enhancement with a rng chance of 2nd being combat stat, and then legendary having a garanteed combat stat that has a chance at unique affinity, and then unique with the unique locked stats

[atomic mountain]

I like getting nutty greens for the low price of 50-100g and being able to kill people in mediocre/decent Epics+Rares

[verbal marsh]

i like finding blues, and dont want to see the drop count reduced because of nutty stats.

[harsh belfry]

Current system allows for ACTUALLY rare items to be created. A tier list of mods that only can roll on certain qualities or above could be a system to skew higher quality into being more useful but I think it should be that higher quality means certain pools of mods are guaranteed on it rather than lower quality has restricted access to the total mod pool.

[graceful frost]

i have heard a few things about this I like. I have suggested having base extra stats with better gear in the first place, but idk if that the way to go anymore. Since the game already has a very big power creep and scaling is insane. However I heard a nice idea that would make it so on lower rarity there is a lower chance of the good attributes, or say high tier attributes like +5 weapon +3 all instead if would be more likely to be +1 or +2. This way you could still get good greens and blues, but there is much more of a reason and a higher chance for higher tier gear to have better attributes and you can grind them out

[verbal marsh]

feel like two things are odd about current system: A, weapons scale too much. B, the itemized stats lean too heavily toward one shot gameplay

[harsh belfry]

For example making purples guarantee a stat gain, and then making legendaries guarantee a stat gain and some kind of percent mod would allow for more consistent loot progression but it’s not always gonna roll the stat or % mod you want. You could also get that same combo at entry level blues because that’s quality that allows for two mods.

[harsh belfry]

I personally like one shot gameplay, I haven’t experienced high roller or much group combat with a consistent crew but in theory one shot punishes unawareness and bad positioning.

[graceful frost]

yeah most characters are doing over triple damage of there base weapon. as in purp-unique longbow with gear compared to normal grey longbow. Same thing with like wiz doing 4 x and barb doing 3x and it being a very big oneshot based game in a lot of scenarios.

[graceful frost]

oneshot doesn't rlly punish unawareness or bad positioning. You can have the best positioning and know someone is pushing, they still walk in and insta kill your wiz with a ranger headshot, or instead buff ball barb and 1 hit your tank

I think having hits do like 1/4-1/3 or even a bit more health is fine, cause if it was less the fights would take way to long and there would be so many 3rd parties. but oneshotting is a bit stupid in my opinion, other than like barb should be able to I feel like, or close to it.

[harsh belfry]

I feel like ranger weapons having pinpoint accuracy regardless of whether they are jumping, running, or have been hit recently will change eat away at a significant piece of the problem with one shot meta at least with range weapons.

[verbal marsh]

it just creates a meta, like enhancing barbarian and maintaining all the speed shrines.

[harsh belfry]

And buffball meta is primarily a mobility problem.

[graceful frost]

there shouldnt rlly be a oneshot meta in general, but I think I agree with some sort of accuracy nerf with ranger while moving or at least while mid air. Personally I think you should still have good accuracy when moving, just not mid air

[verbal marsh]

I would rather gear dictate a 50% increased chance of killing me rather then it being a lucky desync.

[graceful frost]

yeah I think oneshot meta is a bit gimmicky. I mean they should still exist with a full geared person to a no geared person, that should happen. but a full geared ranger being able to oneshot some other full geared classes.(even if not a oneshot you can peak with quickshot and if you hit them its over.) I do think it is also annoying for barb, but for a different reason, not cause barb can oneshot but cause he can oneshot while getting hasted using rage cleric healed cleric buffed and more

[harsh belfry]

A dispel spell would change that dynamic dramatically. But so does baiting into bear traps, baiting past your rogue, a cleric that actually took bind (though I’m not sure how much time that buys or how it scales with will of caster or against will of the bound). Throwing weapons also slow a single guy with buffs holding w at you.

[verbal marsh]

also rare isn't until the item is gold, blue is magic, and green is uncommon.

[graceful frost]

Personally I don't like the idea of a spell that gets rid of buffs. just cause it would make that character needed to be used. It would become like cleric, plus the character with dispell in like every comp. Or at least the dispell character to stop a very good comp

[verbal marsh]

makes sense for uncommon to have more utility, blue to have more damage, and gold to have chance of being even better cause its rare.

[graceful frost]

tbh there shouldnt be much of a reason to use lower rarity over higher rarity. thats why I think making attributes have a lower chance of being the max like +3 all or +5 weapon at the lower raritys and higher at the higher ones would be nice. Then you can still get good lower rarities, but a much higher chance on better gear and makes it worth to go for that instead of farming blues for god attributes which you can get a lot

[verbal marsh]

I don't think increase attribute should roll on anything less then a magic or rare unless its jewelry.

[graceful frost]

maybe

[verbal marsh]

I think the bonus's are just in a box and the devs havnt put in the dividers yet.

[graceful frost]

yeah that would make sense

Oh my b I see what you meant by the first message earlier. yeah I like that idea.

[verbal marsh]

have you ever seen world trigger animation? I would like a gamemode like that.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah perhaps

[graceful frost]

I have not

[atomic mountain]

Like condition “all torches are off by default”?

[graceful frost]

wiz light spell meta 😮

that could be cool. or things like that

[verbal marsh]

basically your team starts divided, and the goal is to regroup before enemy teams do for the advantage but until then there is still individual skill.

[graceful frost]

that actually sounds really cool, since it would be teams, but still a lot of 1v1 and 1v2 encounters. would be kinda annoying when a team plays like barb ranger and something else really good at kiting, and just runs through enemies and doors and meets up instantely lol

[verbal marsh]

yeah with map and level design there might be usual avenues you might want to take and what not to regroup

[graceful frost]

yeah. imagine that with random rooms. that really sounds fun. This games current design feels like there is so much to expand on. and I like the idea of random rooms to, since if your expirience you still know what the rooms are and whats in them, but they are in random order

[verbal marsh]

can have res shrines be more common as well since its more about regrouping so even if you die solo your teammate might be able to get you up.

[graceful frost]

yeah

[verbal marsh]

world trigger is a decent anime, but I'd still rate it b tier. i like how its emphasizes map and team cooperation however with the game they created within

the mc in the anime is basically your average gamer trying to keep up and be decent in game with strategy rather then reflex

[harsh belfry]

Rarity should be a function of actual mathematics -_-

[harsh belfry]

If this “spawn separately and group up” game mode existed then all the doors could be locked until the monsters in each of the rooms are cleared.

[verbal marsh]

imagine going in solo wreaking havok and just exiting asap, yo i dont want no beef im in here alone. oh okay, stabby stabby in the back aloneeee

[wise vine]

I'm interested in the aspect of my suggestion people are against, Fighter and Barbarian already fill the roles I've outlined, the main issue I see is that Barbarian fills his role as a tank for Magic better than Fighter fills the role as a tank for Range, it feels bad that Iron Will is far far more effective than Projectile Resistance as a perk which makes Fighter a less appealing option on a team, not to mention Barbarian having a FAR higher damage output.

Allowing them both to have defined roles as melee tanks within team play would let the decision between the two not just be "barbarian has the higher damage output, and can eat a fireball like its confetti, so lets pick him"

[graceful frost]

Fighter doesn’t really need it

[turbid ermine]

Barbarian combat heal is a joke

[graceful frost]

He can already tank range and melee easily. Yes it takes some gear but he gets insane dr with gear. Barb doesn’t rlly have much gear that does that, so iron will. I don’t think there needs to be any buff to fighters range resistance he is already a very strong range counter with like 50 percent dr 30 percent projectile dr and headshot dr

[wise vine]

Fighter sure needs something, Barbarian is

1. Faster than them because rage gives them a speed bonus and they spawn with boots/no chestpiece (not to mention having higher base HP and not needing armor as badly)
2. has a higher damage output because rage gives them 15 more strength on top of that BARE MINIMUM, ontop of their already DISGUSTING +10 flat damage on axes
3. Barbarian can slow down their opponents to catch them with fear
4. Barbarian with Iron Will has higher magic resistance than any other class in the game making the main burst DPS of wizard entirely pointless
5. Barbarian is rewarded with more of their most important resource for killing other players
6. Barbarian needs extremely little gear to fight while fighter needs a shit ton to be viably picked
7. Range options aren't even an issue for current barb because you can do as much damage as a longbow with Francisca Axes

Barbarian is Fighter without the weaknesses like crumpling to Weakpoint Attack or Magic right now

its intensely frustrating to gear up as a fighter and know that with all purples I'm still probably going to get dropped by a barb with all grays

[graceful frost]

I am just saying fighter doens't need to be better at countering melee or range or anything, he is an amazing ranger counter and can tank a ton of physical

also fear does slow down right? I was called stupid for saying that but I was sure about it. Personally I think barb rage shouldnt give that speed buff, you should have to use axes to catch people. I do agree fighter could use some more and barb is a bit strong though

[wise vine]

Fear does slow players and Bosses, its a debuff

[graceful frost]

thats what I thought, I was positive, but was called braindead in the barb channel lol

[verbal marsh]

idk last i checked its 20% damage reduction not ms speed.

[wise vine]

it may have been a bug

[graceful frost]

it doesnt say but if you get hit by just fear you feel it. I feel like its a bug

[verbal marsh]

it might have had a hidden ms debuff in it idk

[wise vine]

keep in mind they added the slowed debuff to the bugs in that same patch, there could be crossed wires

[turbid ermine]

1. Barbarian will never catch a fighter because of agility differences and sprint been a better speed boost perk.
2. Of course barb has a higher damage output in exchange of been unable to hit massive amounts of damage reduction.
3. Fighter can just use a bow, really powerful tool.
4. Because currently defense scaling on magic sucks, will likely be fixed.
5. Barely anyone picks damage or vampirism because it relies on winning already, better get skills or perks that get you to that state.
6. Franciscas will likely get nerfed.

[verbal marsh]

they changed the way that weapons slow during ptr4, rather then just swing speed debuff it windup then a brief cut into chop

[graceful frost]

thats wrong. or at least against a geared fighter barb will catch a fighter with rage.

a barb will outrun a geared fighter any day, a barb may just outrun fighter always. I think naked fighter to naked barb a fighter with sprint is a bit faster than a barb with rage. thats not considering the slow debuff from, fear which is most likely a bug

[turbid ermine]

Depends heavily how hard you go into plate, the sprint buff looses effectiveness as you stack move speed debuff

[wise vine]

1. Rage is 15% and Sprint is 16.6%, you're talking a difference of 1.6%, thats literally a difference that could be made up with some boots, ontop of the barbarian wearing far less and far lighter armor, meaning they're already at an advantage
2. I never said barbarian shouldn't be high dps, I'm saying they get to be that ontop of being the best at everything else in melee
3. As stated, a green or blue francisca axe rivals a longbow headshot in terms of DPS and you get 3 of them per drop, and they were dirt cheap on the second hand market
4. This is just a balance issue, but it lead to Wizards basically just having to ignore every barb just incase they had Iron Will because they'd get completely dropped otherwise
5. Barbarian can tank so many hits and has such a high base value in their HP that Morale Boost is a boon no matter what, because even if it only activates once or twice thats a potion or bandage they didnt have to use

[turbid ermine]

1. Base agility adds slightly more into the equation.
2. Barbarian will never hit physical damage cap, which is where fighter shines.
3. As stated, Franciscas will likely get nerfed back to utility.
4. Good, because it means classes stay rock paper scissors and wizard has an actual hard counter.
5. HP is irrelebant when you start hitting decent builds because of how much damage scales, phys res is king.

[graceful frost]

not rlly. fighter with any plate with lose it. and again fear does give a speed debuff, prolly a glitch thougfh

[rocky oar]

Fighter def outruns Barb unless they are straight up full plate, my fighter didn't do full plate so he always out ran everyone lol

[wise vine]

Shield + Sword + Fullplate = Burger King Fighter

[heady pine]

what's the math behind fighter's sprint being +16.6% mobility?

[rocky oar]

I've never seen savage roar slow people before either

[verbal marsh]

I think rage should be like field rations or second wind. Doesn't make sense for them to rage out every fight imo.

[wise vine]

They could just do what the original inspiration for it did, remove the speed buff and make it a defensive buff

[rocky oar]

50 movement speed is way more than 15% rage btw lol

[heady pine]

i'm confused by this thought here that barbarians are somehow slower than fighters?

[heady pine]

if both are roughly 300 movespeed it's +50 versus +45, except they dont both start at 300

[rocky oar]

Barb starts at 276 according to wiki

[heady pine]

the wiki is comically wrong, barb's base movespeed without modifiers is 292

[verbal marsh]

fighters are faster then barbarians, only a hasted or shrined barbarian is faster then fighter.

[graceful frost]

its 296 according to the dark and darker handbook

[rocky oar]

Barb is 276 at start because of them having less Agi than fighter btw

[heady pine]

handbook is unfortunately a playtest behind

[graceful frost]

ok rip all the numbers i have

[wise vine]

276 sounds laughably wrong, they should only have -12 movespeed because of their 4 agility below the fighters

[verbal marsh]

by default fighter has higher agi, and swiftness removing 20 penalty... A barb and a fighter wearing the same outfit a fighter is faster.

[graceful frost]

most of the time a barb can outrun a fighter. at least with plate or some plate. Also fear last playtest did give a movement speed reduce to players for some reason, I think it was a glitch but barb def outruns fighter with it like that

[wise vine]

They can't and wouldn't wear the same outfit, unless its a gambeson I guess

[rocky oar]

Well, the starting stats on the wiki have been all right as far as I know. I know the Wiz one is correct since all Iplay is Wiz

[heady pine]

yeah handbook is MOSTLY the most reputable source available, but some nuances are out of date - mostly relating to how the different attributes apply incrementally. Right now agility has a +2 movespeed at below 15, so barbs with 11 agi have 292 instead of base 300 movespeed. The 276 figure from the wiki is completely false and probably because someone screenshot the stat spread while wearing clothes

[verbal marsh]

I often wore gambeson's for armored movement builds as fighter.

[wise vine]

292 sounds about right, which means that with +8 they'd be on par with a fighter, not to mention they could just take off their helmet and pants and go full naked meta to make up that lacking 1.6% from Sprint

[graceful frost]

yeah. I have a ton of calc based on handbook, but some of it is off I am pretty sure just cause its a bit outdated. I tried to correct the best I can. but a fighter even with the swift perk will get outran by a barb when both of them are geared, a barb has like 6 less ms when they have base gear so fighter on average is prolly a bit faster.

[rocky oar]

I legit don't know what to tell any of yall but, my fighter straight up outran everyone with Sprint

[heady pine]

but yeah "barb is slower than fighter" is so wrong on so many levels i mean - fighter clothes is far heavier for one, that's why sprint is a flat boost to speed rather than percentile. barb can take better advantage of a percentage buff because barb can actually exceed 300 speed theoretically while wearing their armors, but fighter can't hope to pull that off.

re: linsung. Sprint lasts longer than rage. and what reznika said

[wise vine]

a lot of barbarians don't put away their weapons to run at people, and or didnt read the text that says Rage makes you run 15% faster

[graceful frost]

barb can get around 316 ms with gear and rage, but it could be a bit less if the numbers I am using are wrong '

[rocky oar]

Ran only HR and saw a lot of geared and actual good players, that wasn't the case for us

[wise vine]

Anecdotal Evidence is kind of pointless though, there could be thousands of games where the exact opposite happened, ect.

[verbal marsh]

a lot of barbarians were using qstaff is the main culprit.

[heady pine]

rooooughly. and fighter is at like 270 at the same, iirc. loose math but if they actually wear plate they're sitting at something like 230 movespeed before sprint activates

[graceful frost]

and the thing is barb rage doesnt just give ms increase either

[rocky oar]

Than this entire conversation is pointless then.

[graceful frost]

fighter ranged from I think 298-316 with swift perk and speed skill and that was the lightest set of plate to the heaviest combo

[wise vine]

The evidence I'm proposing is entirely numbers based, not on my ingame runs

[heady pine]

I agree with linsung, barbs putting their weapons away to reposition during fights is extremely the norm on higher than beginner fights. The difference between a fresh barb and a veteran one is whether they know the punch hitboxes :v

[wise vine]

but if I were to bring in personal experience, the one class I didnt fuck with when I saw them was barb because I knew how massively boned I was 99% of the time if they chased me

[graceful frost]

I mean we can still consider in game scenarios, I do agree in this situation numbers are the main thing, but also many of the wiki numbers are wrong, or the handbook a bit outdated, so when we don't know if the numbers are 100 percent accurate we can also consider player expirience, however again I don't think its a strong argument in this situation

[rocky oar]

Different experience for my team, we rolled most barb teams

[verbal marsh]

most fighters were taking -40 to -70 from their weapon configs most people didnt use armoring sword or shortsword combos to keep their speed boosted.

[heady pine]

important in this conversation to remember that a fully armored barb is wearing flatly faster armor than a fully armored fighter, the math is a lot more comparable if you're looking at stock or similar

your world ends as a fighter when you realize a northern full tunic gives 70 armor for -15 movespeed

[graceful frost]

I forgot to use hearing perk on ranger, and I learned very fast that if I am gonna survive a barb I gotta use hearing perk, purely to hear them scream and dip, otherwise they break the door and either throwing axe 2 hit me, or outrun me with rage lol

[wise vine]

This was also what I was trying to say earlier, Even with Swift the fighter is still heavier than barb in full gear, it leads to the 15% from rage meaning the barb can catch up in a ton of cases

the real solution is to just have the Fighter and the Barb duke it out with a Francisca Axe duel obviously

[graceful frost]

axe perk go brrr

[heady pine]

a clever fighter double dips on phys protection AND projectile reduction. francs aint nothin

[graceful frost]

I say we arrange pokemon battles between them.

[merry lion]

what about 12 francs

[verbal marsh]

because if you're going to armor you should stack it, otherwise you should be relying on your weapon range to get off first strike and hope to land next 2 hits before he finishes u first. fighter has better range, barbarian cannot block, you can afford to take 1 or 2 hits and block at least one of their attacks to get advantage on ms speed to dodge another one.

[graceful frost]

we pick our loadout on each side of pokemon(armor and weapons) and then estimate who will win

[heady pine]

honestly if it's between both classes and with "prep", barb wins every time if for nothing else than reckless attack. but in default situations fighters have way more options for approaching the fight, barb's only real mixup is "uses a bardiche or zweihander instead of an axe" when it comes to fighting fighters.

I mean this with sincerity though, very few fighters i faced knew how to handle a barb with a zweihander :v

[wise vine]

well obv, fighter should be focusing on gear because its their biggest strength, but I'm saying that barbarian opens up that full plate like a tuna can and fighter being slower than them means they gotta start relying on their shield REAL quick

[heady pine]

fighter's relatively severe gear dependency is pretty gnarly imo.

[rocky oar]

Fighter winnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnns

[verbal marsh]

fighters who showed their backs to barbarians made me sick, you have block speed and range advantage on a barbarian. If you wernt such a coward and learned how to fight you should always win lol

[wise vine]

the biggest and most obvious strength fighter has is their shields, which is sad because shields suck right now because their viewmodels are insanely deceptive

[rocky oar]

cap

[heady pine]

shields RULE but they're a very high skill floor to use effectively. it's a combination of "you actually have to aim using something other than your eyes" and "some attacks will hit you before your shield, and if that happens you die"

if you have friends to back you up just crouch and look up

[wise vine]

The shield singlehandedly takes them up a notch in terms of gameplay because it allows them to completely ignore pointless damage from things like Arrows or wayward swings, which is awesome, if it wasn't so jank

[heady pine]

(Just hope to god that guy you're blocking doesn't know that trick)

[verbal marsh]

shields were a lot easier then longsword spear and qstaff blocks, the jank on those made me sad.

[wise vine]

I think if fighter could reliably do Sword and Board and not just get hit in the dome over their roundshield by a one shot barb swing, they'd win every time
but the fact barb just yells at you, you block, and theres a 50/50 chance you misinterpreted the angle because you're relying on blind faith that you're far enough above your head, it feels pretty bad

[rocky oar]

kek, spear claps

[heady pine]

half of the issue is just FOV imo

to clarify: if people could actually see up while they're blocking they'd be better able to judge if the shield is going to intercept that overhead swing

[turbid ermine]

I mean with practice you can block arrows with longsword

[leaden tide]

You dont need hearing perk on ranger wt
You're the 2nd fastest class in the game. Running away isnt an issue

[heady pine]

yeah i mean with practice you could block any attack. Shield WORK and it's legit. the "issue" is moreso around how hard it is for players to understand why it wont work until they get it explained to them

[verbal marsh]

a lot of you just dont understand the desync and spacing required to appropriately block, its not like chivalry where you're suppose to parry last second, you need to have block started as soon as they begin their swing or you're not blocking at all.

[rocky oar]

Spearrrr

[turbid ermine]

you can't block quarterstaff if they jump during the second attack and look about 90 degrees to the side, because the hitbox starts inside you

[heady pine]

even without desync, you actually draw the shield up into the block position and it isn't active until you fully complete the motion

[graceful frost]

yes it very much is? ranger can get outran by almost every class with skills and perks

[wise vine]

anyways, purely numbers and purely stats, Barbarian overperformed every other class in the game in every stat except Sell Count in the normal dungeon
they were cracked this last playtest and I hope they either are toned down, or other classes are brought to their level.

[turbid ermine]

Several of those numbers are due to been buffed by others, particularly haste helped barb

[graceful frost]

barb can outrun ranger with rage, rogue can outrun range, fighter depending on loadout can outrun ranger(considering swift perk and speed skill along with a bit lighter version of plate) wiz can def outrun ranger. Also I will get throwing axe 2 hit by barb and throwing axe and ran up to by fighter

[wise vine]

I don't doubt it, but doesn't that make you wonder why they aren't buffing any other class?

They're buffing up the barb with those spells because they make the best use of it, which is indicitive of their raw strength and power

[heady pine]

I mean, meh? This has been the narrative for sure but i think it's very, very exaggerated. If barb needs nerfs they'd be relatively minor ones - barb isn't overpowered it's easy and nothing numerically seen this last PT even COMPARES to old rogue or PT3 rangers. It's night and day, this PT was miles ahead better balanced class wise than the 3 prior

[leaden tide]

you quite literally can't. You're the 2nd fastest class in the whole game (Well, aside from wizard haste boosted and rogue, but you kinda counter wizard so have a hard time believing they'll rush you considering you literally cancel any and all casting they do with arrows AND you can generally kill wizards in 2-3 hits due to being squishy, you're their best counters)

Barbarians, fighters, clerics will never catch you as long as you pull out your hands. Coming from someone who played a ton of 3v3, solos in both normals and HR. Dying with the ranger is ALWAYS a skill issue & positional mistake. Unless invis rogue cheese you ofc

[turbid ermine]

Because fighter doesn't struggle to get in and has damage output, in a 1 shot meta, picking a class that 3-5 shots is not optimal even if they can take massive amounts of punishment

Some people at the end started running ranger instead of barb

Rogue will require teams to bait others so they need time and cleric base agility+ weapon options suck

[wise vine]

I don't think barb is overpowered, I think they're just way better at the job Fighter is meant to fill on a team for way less effort, which feels bad if you wanna play melee

[heady pine]

no it's indicative of barbs being the damage dealing melee class with a higher flat movespeed when geared. +14% movement works better on the guy moving at 270 than the guy moving 230.

[verbal marsh]

I think whats making barb op is haste and impact power, if rage gets restricted to limited uses and haste buffs no longer stack barb would be a balanced class. I think if they were to just make the impact power perk only work during rage barb would be more balanced.

[turbid ermine]

Don't forget Francisca

[wise vine]

I think you could just take off the movespeed of rage and make it an offensive buff instead, just make them swing faster

[heady pine]

rage being limited uses is a silly option imo. Buff stacking is the problem lol.

francs are just... a symptom of axe specialization being an absurd +10 flat instead of +phys power like every other specialization perk in the game

[graceful frost]

??? my man have you looked at the numbers? with rage on barb moves faster than ranger, rogue moves faster, wizard with haste or invis which they always have will move faster than ranger, idk what you want me to say, even geared fighter can outrun ranger sometimes. I have litterally done the numbers, of few of them are prolly a bit off and could be a bit outdated, but the thing is still the same. Also again francisca axes . I never said it wasn't a skill issue? also sometimes there isnt stuff you can do lmao

[wise vine]

life could be a dream if every weapon specalization was flat damage instead of %

[heady pine]

#1 easiest and frankly most obvious adjustment for barbarians as a class is to stop letting them deal 30 damage with a grey francesca

[wise vine]

and then Wizards will use Ignight + Throwing Knives and laugh

[verbal marsh]

I think if they made the impact perk only work during rage it would make barb more balanced. Part of the problem is they can easily break every door in the dungeon without breaking a sweat.

[heady pine]

no. that's not a problem

smash is actually suicide on HR if you're not capable of fighting the entire lobby 1vX, because it draws the entire lobby

[verbal marsh]

imagine how much longer it would take a barbarian to get across dungeon in your starting zone if they had to use rage to break every door on the way there or open it.

[wise vine]

man let me tell you, nothing feels worse than a barb catching you as a rouge because you have to open doors and he ignores them

[heady pine]

yeah and then the class would feel like garbage to play, that's not a solution.

[turbid ermine]

The issue is not that barb can insta break any time...the issue is that haste makes barb too mobile so his entire weakness dissapears

[verbal marsh]

elaborate.

[heady pine]

use your big rogue brain to defeat the meat head - open a door, back step it, cloak before the opened door, and watch him just run past you. works like every time

[leaden tide]

There is, you can always do something. They aren't faster than you. Unless you're literally standing next to them they will never catch you. They do outrun you, MOMENTARILY being the keyword, with big cooldowns. Not only will they take time to catch you but their armors are also slower than yours, AND they gotta close the gap (which will take enough seconds), and assuming you don't pull out your bow again, the moment they do catch up (if they do at all, I don't really have this problem so it leads me to believe it's just positional mistakes you're making such as being way too close and not repositioning when you should) when they pull out their weapon, they will once again be very slow and you'll outrun them again and they will not be able to damage you as you'll just get out of range from them pulling out weapon + swing time

[heady pine]

sprint do have a longer duration and faster cooldown than rage he got a point

[wise vine]

I would do that if the caveman didn't throw his newly discovered fire stick at me and then clobber me

[heady pine]

barb has nearly double the time required to interact with chests and doors of any other class. smash is basically life support for them. It comes at the cost of being loud as F though and unless you have competent backup you end up refusing to use the perk except in emergencies out of survival

[wise vine]

this is why Caltrops + Smoke Bomb is my rogue loadout of choice, more consistent to get away with than Hide

[heady pine]

caltrop smoke rogues are chads tbh. use the class as it's meant to be - nefariously

[wise vine]

Dont need damage if I loot every chest and dip, infinite lockpicks baby

[turbid ermine]

Rupture and weakspot tho

[verbal marsh]

I don't see where it makes them feel like garbage, rage last 10 seconds. you've 10 seconds to break everything then have to wait an additional 20 to do it again...

[graceful frost]

I think your reading way to far into this? this has nothing to do with my skill level? and you have never seen me play or anything? I am not saying I can't deal with barbs? or that it isn't a skill issue if I die? cause its like that for every character? I think randomly assuming my skill level and what I am doing wrong with no basis is kinda stupid. You are not helping, you may be trying to but frankly your being really annoying. I mean again I mentioned with skills and perks they are faster? Yes it may be for a period of time but in a closer to mid range situation that is enough, also fransciscas will just move slow and to hit me, again not saying it isn't a skill issue, cause dying with any class is. But I think you assuming my skill and something random I was doing wrong 3 weeks ago in a playtest when you have never played with me and seen me play is a bit bs.

[heady pine]

play barb

[verbal marsh]

I do lol.

Wizards it cost them precious spell damage, rogues naturally open doors fast but it still makes noise, barbarians just get an over powered door breaking ability at no risk.

[heady pine]

"your interact is on cooldown" is pretty ugly game design

[leaden tide]

You're trying to argue that hearing is necessary for ranger because barbarian will shout and outrun you otherwise, but that's not the case at all. Hearing is really only meant to be used if you want to wipe out the entire lobby and want to figure out where everyone is ASAP to chase them down. I'm not saying you're bad. I'm saying that people who die to classes slower than the ranger are just making positional mistakes. Instead of taking hearing to cushion your mistakes, you should be fixing them instead as it'll lead to much better progress over time

[heady pine]

at the end of the day every class can kill every other class but it's never going to be a fair fight
if you're a ranger and anything got in melee with you, either you made mistakes or they outplayed you somehow.

sometimes you just get got, basically

[graceful frost]

Im not trying to argue anything? I was never here to argue? your the one picking the fight? I was simply making a more of joke comment on barb, and this was cause a lot of time when I don't here the barb he will break down a door close to me, pop rage so in that time frame can outrun me, or just throw throwing axes? I am implying nothing about barb, nothing about ranger, nothing about my skill level. I was simply making a jokelike comment and your picking a fighter over it. Also who says I am dying to barbs lol? also when a barb is behind a door, I have no way of knowing he is there, I go semi close he breaks the door pops rage and double fransciscas me to death, I dont rlly see how thats exactly bad positioning but I don't care enough to argue. I never said I had trouble with barbs or anything, I was simply making a joke and I was told that hearing perk was very strong too

[heady pine]

I will say to continue off the Smash discourse that i actually think quarterstaff shouldn't be able to break doors. it's comically easy for barbarians to chase players down with a -10 movespeed beat stick rn, normally the "cost" of using smash is that you have to constantly arm and disarm a heavy 2 handed weapon, so you end up only "matching" the speed of who you're chasing. But with a QS you basically sonic race through the whole dungeon.

I will say though, in line with my ranger comment, why are you stopping to close doors if a barb is chasing you? Ultimately you gotta outplay the smash just like how the smash outplays you.

[graceful frost]

instead of taking perks and skills to help you just improve on your mistakes and become a perfect player 😄

[heady pine]

hearing perk IS actually epic as hell. lets you hear other teams PvEing from miles away and this honestly lets you pick out so many threats. i run it. 👍

[graceful frost]

Exactly and I was told something similar so I use it. It was nice in goblin caves too since it’s pretty close in a ton of places there so I can be more aware a person is where they are earlier. Without having to get too close cause of the tight corridors of it

[faint dirge]

Hearing is good for many things, most useful ones are setting up traps, and not getting sandwiched

[heady pine]

its the same vein as the tracker perk, obviously it doesn't do much for you in a fight but man it really helps your threat detection. and it STILL has utility in a fight! Hearing perk can help you know whether or not another team is nearby during a fight so you know if you need to pull back, or hell - if you can kite the first team into the second! And it lets you more easily discern the makeup of a team before seeing them! And tracker perk lets you shoot rogues who are invisible so that's funny

[leaden tide]

Barbarian aint rogue bruv you can literally hear them from across the map swinging and shouting. Unless the dude literally stands at a door the whole game without moving since the start of the game, which no one really does and taking hearing for that wouldn't help anyways lol.

Hearing IS strong, if you want to wipe out the entire lobby as I said. Arguably even as solo so you can trap doorways, but other than those 2 uses the other perks simply have much more efficiency. Simply because:
1- Odds are you don't want to wipe the entire lobby (unless you're going for leaderboards)
2- You don't need hearing to preemptively set traps in choke points or dark areas

And yes, you should have critical thinking and self awareness to constantly improve your gameplay. Taking hearing to increase your safety net is fine but it masks other underlying issues that can and are easily fixed with experience. Taking perks to mask those issues all it does is make you neglect the fact that they exist and instead of allowing you to improve it's just delaying your improvement.

Tracking for instance is a MUCH better perk as it truly allows you to capitalize on something that isn't entirely a positional mistake or skill issue, which is invisible rogues sneaking around.

[graceful frost]

yeah especially when playing solo. Also I do find tracking perk pretty useful in a fight, or to spot little ratty rogues, but yeah isn't as good as these others

[heady pine]

ranger is one of the classes that has a lot of PvE or Eco/Farming mechanics other classes lack. A lot of its utility will be abandoned when you're so rich you can one shot people with a survival bow, but starting out or just for accruing that capital they have MASSIVE payoffs in using their full variety of perks/skills

like c'mon ranger has a free 75 health of healing every raid if you pick a skill, nobody has that much utility (fighter almost has it tho lol)

[rocky oar]

Fighters heal can be regenerated unlike the rangers

[graceful frost]

please stop man lmao. You are trying way to hard to argue about nothing. I do look at my mistakes and realize what Id id wrong lmao. You do not need to go in here and analyze every word I say even if its a joke and break down my gameplay without seeing me play once. and it isn't just to increase a safety net either? Its like saying taking perks and skill is just to increase your safety net instead of just getting better lmao. There is a reason everyone uses perks and skills, and there is a lot of preference with ranger perks. I give up I am done replying, you are clearly looking for a fight, you picked it in the first place and just really want to argue and say your right about something

[heady pine]

yes but using a resource the fighter doesn't get for free

[graceful frost]

I mean sure you are right, about what idk but your right. You happy?

[rocky oar]

Different experience. My team brought 5 campfires in per run lol

[leaden tide]

I'm not analyzing your gameplay, you just can't seem to take criticism to your perk choices

[heady pine]

i'm starting to remember that steelhard is one of the guys who picks fights in barb chat and i wanna warn you against bothering at this point lol

picking fights in barb chat. absolutely maidenless behavior that's become all too common since PT ended. We're going crazy over there.

[leaden tide]

I'm sorry but no HR ranger will ever take hearing over tracking unless it's for lobby wiping. Nor will anyone wanting to improve (assuming that's your goal anyways)

[heady pine]

nobody asked

[leaden tide]

Nobody talking to you bud don't like it block me

[rocky oar]

WOAHHHHHHH, tracking is way more useless in my opinion than hearing lmao

[graceful frost]

I can? I just review my own gameplay? look at my own mistakes and change my perks to what I like and have success. There is not rlly objectively right perk choices for ranger. it isn't me not being able to take criticism its me not wanting to here your opinion and have you arguing with me for no reason. @heady pine yeah Im done now, my mans just gonna continue to assume I don't want to improve lmao. His ego can't take the fact I don't care for his annoying as opinion

[heady pine]

lets you shoot rogues in their invisible faces lmao. but i agree hearing is ultimately going to do more on average

[leaden tide]

For new players it is for sure, it reduces your weakness and allows you to have a bigger cushion for your mistakes

[turbid ermine]

Tracking keeps rogue rats off you, situationally useful

[verbal marsh]

you're not going to 'hear' a steam train breaking 5 doors and coming directly at you until its your door that is being broken.

[leaden tide]

You're literally saying the opposite of what I said above. I'm giving you feedback so you CAN improve. If I assumed you didn't want to improve I wouldn't bother giving you feedback. Hence why I literally said (assuming that's your goal anyways) but hey man, if you don't want to take advice that's cool

[heady pine]

as a zweihander user i always appreciate other classes' strategies for dealing with rogues. I just activate my spin move but it's fun to see what everyone else has at play

[graceful frost]

I mean really all of rangers perks more or less have reasoning behind them. And I have seen all sorts of loadouts from good players.

[heady pine]

crossbow mastery kind of slaps ngl tbh imo tbqh iykwim

[rocky oar]

That's about it. If even that, I've never had issues with Rouges cause I always hear them or see them for a moment and they go around a corner and just gone which is safe to assume they are hiding. The only time I get caught off guard is if they are legit just camping in a spot for a long time long before they even hear people

[graceful frost]

I hate when that happens 😦

3, 2, 1

[rocky oar]

In that case hearing and tracking ain't helping here

[heady pine]

"did somebody burp?" dies immediately

[leaden tide]

Not the biggest fan either, but assuming you don't make positional mistakes or aren't going for a lobby wipe it's by far a better choice than hearing. Personally I still run kinesthesia though, haven't seen as many rogues this playtest in HR

[verbal marsh]

my ranger runs crossbow mastery, headshot, spear mastery, and tracking. trueshot rations

[rocky oar]

lmao

[graceful frost]

xD

I unironically wanna try true shot next playtest. Prolly wont get success by my aim is really good so having a borderline hitscan shot is all I need. Or I just get the named unique survival bow lol

[leaden tide]

unironically true shot is good for crossbow (the one with tons of drop off)

[verbal marsh]

land one, trueshot swap to windlass, headshot, they're dead.

[graceful frost]

lol

[heady pine]

trueshot rations is an absurd but respectable move. the kinda thing i would assume only fools and the secretly genious would take. 8/10

Builds that dont make sense to people who play meta are the best. Defy them

[verbal marsh]

you can land 2-3 crossbow bolts with trueshot active with crossbow mastery, and it also effects spear damage and thrust speed.

[rocky oar]

crossbow mastery kinesthesia sharpshooter nimble hands

[heady pine]

does kinesthesia even effect crossbows?

[atomic mountain]

Say wut

Screenshot captured

[verbal marsh]

2 crossbow, 2ndary and release. its difficult and a time crunch for 3rd however better off just taking the 2.

[merry lion]

no way it affects spears

[heady pine]

yeah that's cap lmao. unless there's an animation cancel in effect or something lol

[atomic mountain]

Quick get a rank 1 Ranger in here, we need to know

[merry lion]

i dont think any normal person would have thought to use true shot with spear

[heady pine]

have you considered putting loaded crossbows in your inventory to swap through

[leaden tide]

@dull lantern @granite plinthdont think they tested it though lmao no one uses crossbow

[heady pine]

there is nothing stopping you from simply... having 6 loaded crossbows in your inventory, you know

[verbal marsh]

I did the backup windlass, its useful but better to just have space in long run. its nice if you find one while using build tho

[rocky oar]

windlass is the play bro as a secondary

[atomic mountain]

Yeah we’re talking about the attack speed ability applying to Spears

[leaden tide]

quick fire is the attack speed not true shot no?

[graceful frost]

so idk if its spears or not, but I think if you switch off it might just give you a 50 percent interact speed or attack speed or something. At least I have felt that before when I have activated and switched off. I do not know 100 percent but I think it might affect spear

[verbal marsh]

true shot is 20% dmg buff with weapon drop

[merry lion]

where did you get 20% from

[leaden tide]

like imagine attacking 50% faster with spears like what even I'd take spear as ranger holy

[atomic mountain]

https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Ranger#Skills-0

[graceful frost]

its faster arrow speed a lot less drop with 5 percent more dmg. not 20

[leaden tide]

yea quick fire is the attack speed one but he was saying true shot did it

[merry lion]

faster projectile speed

[atomic mountain]

If quick shot affects spears, it’s a bug

[verbal marsh]

oh i might have confused the fighter one for a sec my bad. yeah the bow one is 5%, no drop / faster thrust.

[merry lion]

crazy

[leaden tide]

I'd cream if quick fire affected spears lol would run a meme melee build for fun

[verbal marsh]

I do the same with fighter using crossbow with spear to test the difference.

day i played fighter and ranger obs bugged out so dont have any footage sadly

[faint dirge]

The speed is cap and the shot is a straight line

I used it a lot with crossbow

Never had the feeling the arrows fly even 1% faster, its just exactly where your crosshair dot is

[verbal marsh]

yeah arrow speed feels same to me just no drop, and the spear feels like the thrust animation is faster, the wind up to the slow cap is faster but the wind down is the same.

[harsh belfry]

Aren’t all fighters ability one use per game/campfire?

[rocky oar]

l;ol no

[verbal marsh]

single use per rush, rare or 2 fires for second wind.

I think dnd rage is limited to 1-x uses per a short rest depending on your level. 5e: You may rage 2 times at 1st Level, 3 at 3rd, 4 at 6th, 5 at 12th, and 6 at 17th.

[harsh belfry]

Yeah that’s a kind of big disparity. Maybe make both Barb and fighter abilities comeback after a player kill. Heck, even a “big mob” kill would be ok in my book.

[verbal marsh]

yeah, i relented to believing impact perk should be restricted to only during rage. would balance the fact you're choosing to destroy a door and rush someone rather then allowing you to just rush people then rage, or at least restrict impact perk to any shout being used so it can be conscious choice before breaking doors.

[harsh belfry]

@wise vine you should compile your arguments you made here into another more clarified version of your suggestion and post it again when the 6hr cooldown is gone.

[harsh belfry]

I love all the “this is the police!!” Or “open up muddafyyyyy” that barbarians get on YouTube when they break down the doors.

[verbal marsh]

most barbarians shout before they break doors anyways, and it would create a window to where they're either shouting or waiting for cooldown if they have to chase you across entire map while breaking doors. I think the hasted barbarian is a bit relentless right now.

[atomic mountain]

Personally I don’t like hearing people’s argument in the suggestion. Just suggest the change/idea and let the votes speak

[harsh belfry]

Ah I hadn’t thought about the cooldown play. Yeah it would parallel with other cd plays like sprint (that is a cd right?) and rogue hide.

[harsh belfry]

I say it because he had a more clarified comparison here in the chat that I had no idea about from reading his suggestions

[atomic mountain]

Word

[pallid lichen]

Na I like the opinions being discussed here

[verbal marsh]

yeah, i find that most hunter barbs just break doors then get in range and rage themselves, thats a bit unfair when they're breaking 20 doors to reach you.

[rocky oar]

lol

[atomic mountain]

I mean when it’s submitted, not discussed. I don’t want to discourage the discussion part in this channel. Just the “state your case” type stuff when final draft

[pallid lichen]

Not sure what you mean?

[atomic mountain]

If you have to argue for your idea inside the suggestion and it becomes an entire novel it’s probably too complicated

[harsh belfry]

I like seeing peoples reasoning, how they got to the point of there idea, in the suggestion.

[pallid lichen]

So like you’re saying to keep suggestions concise?

[atomic mountain]

That’s fair as long as it’s not too long
This is just my take, we all different

[rocky oar]

We need Greater Haste and the Fly spell for Wiz. Reason: because I said so

[verbal marsh]

I would like to see rope added to game.

[harsh belfry]

I want to see actual pit fall traps on the map. Where if you fall in you might be actually f***ed.

[atomic mountain]

There are pitfalls but they’re not triggered or anything

[pallid lichen]

I think wizard should get a fake running clone spell. Would allow him more trickster capabilities.

[atomic mountain]

I kind of want to see some traps that involve player displacement like knock backs or sending someone super high up in the air

[harsh belfry]

There are? Like places in the maps where if you fall in you can’t get out of? And it’s by design not some glitchy floor bug?

[atomic mountain]

I’m referring to the circles you drop into that change levels and yeah some are not fun to fall into by accident (But they aren’t triggered or considered traps by any means)

[harsh belfry]

Ya know I guess that counts. It defintely is a surprise the first time you fall in there.

[verbal marsh]

mirror image spell that creates a reflection of yourself that uses (r) key to toggle wasd control between yourself and the clone to fake people out and indirectly cast spells from a new angle.

[atomic mountain]

I would definitely like to see them expand on those ideas because it would increase the games unique appeal

[harsh belfry]

If they do add rope then it should come with a grappling hook attachment. And if they add rope then they are like one step away from adding things like flail or slings that need the physics.

[pallid lichen]

Don’t know about the R key think, just because I thing because they should make meditate the R key, but someway to control them would be intresting

[harsh belfry]

I want to see different kinds of meditate.

[atomic mountain]

Yes preach (I suggested an idea of meditate where it isn’t as good but it’s passive) Got mad ratiod

[rocky oar]

nahhhh

[harsh belfry]

.shortinfo 1615278

[eager sable]

Suggestion from Sunder#4876

Keep meditate and spell memory for wizards but fold the current wizard perks into different flavors of meditate and add new spell function trade offs into the perk list. Examples of meditate effect: “increase lightning damage”. Example of meditate buff duration “one minute after meditate ends”, “next three spell casts”. Example of perk trade off reworks “zap chains to an additional target but haste no longer works on Allie’s” “chain lightning no longer does damage to you but invisibility not longer works on Allie’s.” “Fire damage has increased burning but haste also causes burning.” “Haste no longer increases movement speed and instead heals over time.”

Opinion:

+9

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1615278 | Submitted at · Feb 20, 2023, 12:47 AM

[pallid lichen]

The can make spell memory R key as well. Both would free up a skill slot

[atomic mountain]

Like you would still have to take it as an active ability and pop it by pressing the button but it would regen stuff overtime at a slower rate and a slower amount than meditate

[rocky oar]

We should just have 10 spells by default bois

[atomic mountain]

🪤

[pallid lichen]

But maybe spell memory could be R then.

[verbal marsh]

maybe concentrate effect after casting it that just roots you in place until you dispell by jumping, until then you can remotely cast spells but have no aim controls for puppeteering.

[rocky oar]

Can't wait till Druids are in the game and we start having Buff Ball Bears running at people

[atomic mountain]

Do you think they’ll have full-on shape shifting?

[rocky oar]

100%, that's literally the main thing about Druid lol

Is it even considered a Druid class without shapeshifting? lol

[atomic mountain]

I hope so too. Hopefully it doesn’t create targeting issues. Yeah I know it’s part of the class but I could also see them going with more of a like spirit animal overlay

[rocky oar]

I am straight up switching to Druid and I shall become the Buff Ball. Get buffed, turn into bird and fly above people and switch to bear form to drop onto people lmao

They should have done Druid first over Bard, on god

[pallid lichen]

I’m scared that Druid might make the game really Wierd. I’m honestly scared what a lot of common class ideas would do for the game. Yeah think the original 6 are great and barb looks very promising. But Druid and a lot of other suggestions seem kinda Wierd to me. I think Druid is confirmed though

[verbal marsh]

what would druid's specialty entail? Bard is clearly going to be a debuffer / crowd disturber

[rocky oar]

It's not a suggestion ma boi. This game is literally based of DnD. Bard, Druid, Monk, and Sorc are all confirmed since they were all in DnD

[pallid lichen]

Yeah I know. What I’m saying still stands

[rocky oar]

What it sounds like to me is that you don't like super cool things like turning into a Bear and run at people lol

[atomic mountain]

I think he’s just saying what I was saying. Like it, want it, but could be targeting / hit reg issue

[stray saffron]

still waiting for pocket sand to become a thing too

[pallid lichen]

It’s just seems really out there from what the game currently is. Especially considering how an ability like that would scale depending on equipment.

[rocky oar]

pfft

[verbal marsh]

whenever i think of druid its weapon buff, vines, nature, spirit, barkskin. So maybe a defense enhancement focus on buffs, some light heals, and nature based spell damage.

[rocky oar]

nope, no one ever thinks that, they think BEAR

[pallid lichen]

Yeah maybe some animal recon abilities . Maybe an AOE of insects that does damage to people inside the swarm.

[stray saffron]

yeah that's pretty much the same what i think, if you scrap animal transformations there's still vines cc, some sort of regrowth healing, thorns buffs or animalistic buffs (agility str etc) a bit like a foresty cleric with a rogue mix?

[pallid lichen]

Could even have some animal transformation that doesn’t let him attack but let’s him move faster to reposition would be cool. That should probably be more of a skill then a spell.

[rocky oar]

yall are lame, I've legit never seen a game where it ain't straight up shapeshifting

[stray saffron]

Well yeah it would be cool to eagle, snake or panther up. It's more collissions and hitboxes that are nightmares with it

[pallid lichen]

They gotta do with ALOT of moderation and mindfulness of how it affects the aesthetic of the game, and how it works with all the other systems of the game

[verbal marsh]

would imagine that mirror image spell could be their shapeshift / summon. kinda turning themselves into a tree while puppeteering an animal to dps while in a wonky position to control it. So they'd be more focused on raising defense values or creating barriers so they dont have to move, maybe a summoning circle that restricts their beast control after summoning it.

[rocky oar]

They can do whatever they want and it's prob gonna be shapeshifting since the game is based off DND lmao

[thick widget]

They need to add kratos as a boss

[pallid lichen]

I mean yes they CAN do what they want. We’re just discussing possible concerns

[atomic mountain]

I want shapeshifting. I’m sure they’ll find a way to do the class justice without causing issues. (But still is on my mind)

[stray saffron]

let's be honest, with full freedom 90% will turn in a rat just to loot and get out quick

[rocky oar]

lmao

[pallid lichen]

The turning into a tree thing sounds a little crazy for the aesthetic of the game, but I hear you. Summoning a vine wall doesn’t though and could be really cool.

[thick widget]

When will they add kratos as a boss

[pallid lichen]

If you had to hide and then summon/control a rat then now we’re cooking

[verbal marsh]

I would imagine them going into the meditate pose and just summoning an animal or something suffice to say, leaving themselves vulnerable to do recon, and maybe allow that summon to remain active if they remain in their meditation circle after they finish else it returns to the void.

[stray saffron]

But then you're more thinking of warlock familiars and necromancy more than druid right?

[thick widget]

What about kratos being added as a boss

[rocky oar]

Ma man keeps talking aesthetic as if this ain't a fantasy game with walking skeletons and mythical creatures which druids have always been a part of lol

[pallid lichen]

Yeah. But communicating with animals is still up druids alley. Obviously there is gonna be some overlap.

[stray saffron]

true, would more be a charm than summon more likely

[rocky oar]

Shapeshift into a motherfucking- Dinosaur

[pallid lichen]

Yeah I think a lot fantasy universes with rogue knights and wizards etc. ignore druids even though it is technically a dnd class.

[verbal marsh]

could have the health of the pet linked to the druid, and when the pet dies the druid cries out revealing his position before he can begin moving from his sobbing meditation pose.

[rocky oar]

Yea but this is dungeon and dungeons

[pallid lichen]

Honestly I’m just worried about how it will ruin the iconic nature of the game. I don’t consider Druid as iconic as the 6 current classes

[rocky oar]

ma brother in christ

[verbal marsh]

not much, drone specialist have been added to shooters for a good while and it remains a viable class.

[rocky oar]

ma man thinks druid gonna rip the game apart

[pallid lichen]

What’s that got to do with what I said?

[verbal marsh]

you thinking druid couldn't add a new fittiny dynamic to the game, having to spell that out for you upsets me.

[rocky oar]

I want my succubus class added to the game

[pallid lichen]

yoru comment mentioned viability which I wasn’t talking about. Druid might very viable but that’s not what I was discussing.

[rocky oar]

Wrong opinion

[verbal marsh]

what are you discussing then

[pallid lichen]

Wether Druid is good for the aesthetic of the game

[thick widget]

I would like to say that kratos as a boss in this game will be an absolute banger

[rocky oar]

He thinks Druid doesn't fit in the theme of the game which is extremely funny cause the game is straight up based of Dungeons and Dragons

[verbal marsh]

aesthetic: adjective
concerned with beauty or the appreciation of beauty
pew pew. no comment then

[thick widget]

kratos can defeat all dnd characters

[grizzled halo]

What kinda spells would a druid have? not just animal transformation i hope

[thick widget]

kratos can easily defeat druid

[rocky oar]

Druids usually have what they were talking about previously. Vines, some buffs, minor heals, shapeshift, speak to animals, etc.

[neat horizon]

so you want an immortal boss?

[rocky oar]

Shapeshifting is the main trope of Druids however.

[neat horizon]

I honestly don't know if races will be added

[pallid lichen]

Just to be clear I trust that ironmave will impliment Druid is a really good way that takes aesthetics into account. I’m just worried

[grizzled halo]

Races are added

[verbal marsh]

iconic druid spells are barkskin, weather and nature effects, and your key buffball effects.

[pallid lichen]

It’s experimental

[thick widget]

i heard they might add kratos as a race

[grizzled halo]

Well. Races with stats or not. they will remain as skins for certain.

[neat horizon]

sure you did buddy

[pallid lichen]

Discord humor

[verbal marsh]

trying to remember any fantasy novels i read about evil druids hrm

[grizzled halo]

Will they add summoners / necromancers?

[rocky oar]

How can you contradict yourself right away lmao, you trust ironmace and then followup with I'm just worried which shows ya don't trust them lmao

[verbal marsh]

Think evil druids are usually on the side of corruption and are halfway to being warlocks rather.

[rocky oar]

They already said they are 100% adding races

[thick widget]

kratos can easily defeat both

[grizzled halo]

I hope they keep the 1 agi race. loved me some Agi rogue Agi wizard.

[proud tinsel]

Elf gimps rogue, you give up hp and dmg to be so very slightly faster

[pallid lichen]

I trust that they are smart and will do a “good” job. But I’m not 100% sure it’s going to be perfect obviously, since they are human. Stop tryna catch people in nonexsistant contradictions

[neat horizon]

I hope they won't add dwarves

[proud tinsel]

I don't mind dwarves as long as they are not half height

[rocky oar]

I hope they add as many races as possible my good sir, is Dungeons and Dragon we are talking about, they are mad races

yall just wanna gatekeep fun

[proud tinsel]

Right but like classic halfling would be op for hiding and ducking head shots

[grizzled halo]

Well there are 2 ways to play rogue right. Geared with armor and you bank on 1shot damage. You are however the weakest type of rogue in a fight as you are as slow as any other class. Naked rogue with agi, shoes and gloves is the skilled option. Can outrun everyone and still assasinate squishies whilst juking barbarians and fighters for days.

[proud tinsel]

Hit boxes need to stay roughly the same to be balanced [

[rocky oar]

imagine not wanting more content in the game that fit with the premise of world they are basing it off of

[neat horizon]

I mean the current game seems more medieval than fantasy imo there's not enough magic

[proud tinsel]

You still have to kill stuff and the % dmg bonus you lose under 15str is big already

[rocky oar]

ma man, you gotta be trolling walking skeletons and mythical monsters isn't fantasy?

[pallid lichen]

Poking a fighter with a long sword is reaaallly hard.