suggestion-discussion

[twin delta]

gonna have to disagree since it's about half the time i need to use meditate in a dungeon run

[glossy solstice]

I was and they do. Stop defending th emost op class

[twin delta]

i do need to use meditate if i don't land my spells AND am hunting players as wizard though, so maybe ease off on the bloodlust?

[simple helm]

In your opinion, but it all comes down to playtesting, remember I'm assuming stronger spells, neither of us knows the exact right amount

[scenic kettle]

wizards are prolly not gonna get stronger spells considering their adding sorcerers, if anything wouldnt it make sense for sorcerers to not regain spells and wizards are able to

[carmine current]

im saying for pve use the crystal sword. not for pvp. if you have in pvp full uses of your spells then you have enough to kill liek 1 or 2 teams of players.

[simple helm]

More like every other player in the dungeon

[twin delta]

also we're gonna be getting stronger spells, because that's what the currently useless scrolls are intended to be used for

[carmine current]

with 65% damage reduction ive never been 2 shot by a ranger you also can get projectile damage reduction and reduce it more if you wear full plate and get its purple no ranger should 2 shot you unless you didnt get projectile res

[scenic kettle]

yea but those spells are one time spells, im talking about stronger spells that you can implement into your kit to use in the dungeon and regain it via meditate

[simple helm]

wouldnt thouse scrolls be usable by other classes as well?

[carmine current]

well you gotta consider taht 99% of the wizards are bad and miss every spell. thats why they need to have their spells still damage when they miss, otherwise every mage would just be garbage at the game.

[twin delta]

i was under the impression that scrolls were going to be how you learned new spells

[scenic kettle]

i thought scrolls were one time use spells that any class can use but if u use it the scroll is gone, but wizards can memorize the spell

[twin delta]

since training doesn't have anything that looks to do that (currently) and fighter has the drawback of 'no spells'

[carmine current]

i think in the last 3 playtests i can count on 1 hand how many times a mage has hit me directly with a fireball and or a chain lightning. litterally every single one of them abuses the fact that you just have to hit the ground near the target to deal teh damage.

[crystal sinew]

Correct, in D&D thats how it works. Rogues can even use magic with scrolls.

[twin delta]

anyone could in 3.5, just needed the use magic device skill

[simple helm]

Yea and they seem to be going the machine-gun approatch with Wizards which I think debases the class, they should be more like rocket-launchers

[twin delta]

and a lot of these elements seem to be from 3.5 specifically

[simple helm]

But how would scroll memorization work in a game like this, the spell list is fully known to the wizard list before dungeon

[carmine current]

i mean if they wanted to be more like rockets then they should have extreme limited casts and should have insanely long cast times

[scenic kettle]

well im not so sure hard limiting the amount of spells a wizard can cast per dungeon isnt fun and gives u disadvantages, especially later in the round

[simple helm]

Yep that's largely my position, though 'insane' casting times is likely too much

[scenic kettle]

wearing gear that improves casting time is so good

[twin delta]

something to note is meditate is vital if you're going to hell

[simple helm]

It's casting per memorized spell, exactly as it is for Clerics, not a global cap

[carmine current]

i mean it doesnt feel fair in the current state that wizards can 1 or 2 shot every class in the game. meanwhile we have literally no ways to mitigate the damage via pots, and magic res gear is super lack luster since about 30-40 magic res is the best you can get on a chest. while armor can get over 100 from a chest.

[simple helm]

I'd be open to some spell regeneration when going down a level, that's a reasonable point to give the player a reward

also if campfires work for clerics to regen spells no reason that it can't do the same for wizards, though in both cases your not going anywhere close to full

camp fires average out to about 1 casting of each spell for clerics from my experience

[carmine current]

that i also think they need to look into some balancing for the flat damage rolls like additional magic damage and true magic damage. to scale differently based on the spell used. since its stuipid that a spell like magic missle can get a 1:1 damage increase per point of additional flat damage. other games like path of exile get around it by giving every spell its own effectiveness of flat scaling damage. they could even do the same for weapons. for instance a dagger shouldnt get an equal effect from +5 weapon damage as a longsword. if anything something like fast attacking weapons should get half effectivness, while slow attacking weapons get full.

[scenic kettle]

i think that wizards need to roll dice everytime they cast a spell

[scenic kettle]

i dont think that is true, my friend gets like 2-3 uses back from each spell. and as a wizard you get more from campfire because it lasts longer than meditate

[carmine current]

i depends on the tier of the spell and the rarity of teh campfire.

[mighty willow]

ypu can stack different qualities of pots

[glossy iris]

i think what everyone needs to understand is that looking at single class balance before release when we know there will be new classes added is not particularly wise. why make the few existing classes fit multiple roles when we can have multiple classes to fit niche roles

[scenic kettle]

i mean i can only get 1 chain lightning back from meditate, but from a white campfire i can get 2 back

[cobalt obsidian]

They only protect against physical though.

[mighty willow]

ah thats what you meant xD

[scenic kettle]

im suprised there isnt a magical resistance pot

[carmine current]

i think he was saying as playing as a wizard. since protection pots give nothing against magic damage. when it should be just a shield against all forms of damage. other then maybe true damage

[carmine current]

yep. there is just a sheer lack of ways to protect against wizards in every playtest. feels super bad since wizards with good gear output some of teh highest damage in the game

[timber glen]

I find that wizards with an axe in their face do not output very much damage.

[cobalt obsidian]

Rangers are my scariest matchup as wizard so far. They can kill me in three arrows to the body.

[carmine current]

i mean its not wise to completely ignore a class either. if one class can dominate every other class then there is an issue. currently i think the issue with stuff like wizard is due to a lack of high magic res gear, lack of protection pots against magic damage, and additional magic damage scaling spells way to much.

[cobalt obsidian]

a barb that knows how to use axes could be formidable.

[scenic kettle]

yeah id say rangers are the scariest for me as well, trying to cast a spell can be difficult if they are just focusing you

[median owl]

Barbs can use magic resist perk, archers outdamaged them not rly a problem atm

[cobalt obsidian]

throwing axes *

not enough rangers know to anticipate the haste + invis face hug though. They just die if they have already expended their rapid shot.
In the caves anyways. Thats been where I have lived this test.

[carmine current]

ur blind if you dont see the issue with it. even on my fighter that had magic res reduction % on every piece bringing me to 30% magic res i got 2 shot by wizards. barbs with magic res perk and gear only get up to about 40%. yes rangers can kill with a headshot in a single hit, but guess what a single hit from a geared wizard 1 shots a ranger as well. hell with wizard you can 1 shot a ranger without actually landing the hit. haste yourself, invis yourself, move up shoot the ground with chain lightning near the ranger it will chain to him and he dies in 1 cast.

[median owl]

if you played the game enough archers are dominating the meta rn and i mean in both geared and not, while wizzy has to risk it all for damage and only a few people actually play him good and at all.

[cobalt obsidian]

wizard is A LOT stronger than archer imo. I have played them both, and have been having a much easier time on my wizard.... granted only after scoring a decent spellbook for the first time.

[median owl]

thats the thing u need gear to be strong archer not rly as much but it helps of course

[carmine current]

i just face tank rangers and kill them in 3 hits while being able to tank 20+ arrows from them to the head. its not much of an issue. rangers get cucked because their damage is reduced by both physical damage reduction and projectile damage recduction. meanwhile wizards dont get any of their hits reduced by projectile damage reduction. even magic missiles and fireball the most clear projectile spells in the game

[granite plinth]

wizard good but u need items

[cobalt obsidian]

the starter bow is trash on the ranger.... but its definitely still easier to start with than what the wizard gets for a few reasons.

The ranger gets 75 free hp.... rapid shot is a damage output monster.... traps are stupidly broken if used properly.

The staff on the wizard feels like a troll. Its so fking bad.

[median owl]

they should just let wiz start off with the most basic worst book, i mean it makes no diference everyone has it always its so cheap just for convenience

[carmine current]

also yes to play it good is one thing, but it takes literally no skill to hit splash fireballs, and ground chaining chain lightnings. hell even zap which actually has to land with good gear can deal up to 80 damage per hit

[median owl]

well yeah at higher level that is true but ot get there takes time and risk so in a way ur rewarded because a wizards grind for gear has to be the worst and payoff the best

[carmine current]

not really they have the best utlitly in the game, the most consistant damage output, the least ways to counter their damage, and their gear is dirt cheap in comparison to any of the other classes

[median owl]

Count the starting damage not geared, sometimes 3 fireballs to the face are not enough i would not call that consistant damage utility for escape yes

[carmine current]

for instance a +5 additional magic damage ring can be easily bought for 300g-400g. a +5 weapon damage ring or +5 additional physical damage ring will go for 700g minimum

[lean vortex]

How do i make a non-binary/gender fluid character?

[median owl]

Cast fireball on ur ppp

[median owl]

Thats just player market because less play the mage, so sell for cheaper

[waxen garnet]

Any chance we'll see a Cleric health buff and a barbarian damage nerf?

[carmine current]

fire ball is 30 and it does 10 burn without the perk for longer duration. so 45 per if you hit head its 55. with the burn duration perk its 15 burn damage meaning 65 from a head hit. or 45 for anywhere else. add in just a single piece of +5 additional magic damage and it goes from 30 to 35, and the duration burn goes from 15 to 20. meaning you then deal 55 damage. now if you are only doing the splash hit its 10 from the splash and 15 from the burn. then add in the +5 and its 15 and 20 meaning its 35 damage. now put on each piece of gear just like that which is 10 pieces of gear so +50 additional magic damage so a splash hit then deals 10+50 and the burn is 15+50=125.

[rain junco]

matchmaking is broken always bugs out

[inland pelican]

Whoever suggested the cursed gear I like the core idea but better, make it so we can identify any "special" gear and reveal a curse that would bind on you if equipped for the match, would be another fun danger

[grand patio]

what do people think of a Grave-Keeper Type merchant who sells back items that were not looted and not extracted from your previous run(at a high price ofcourse)

[median owl]

Now lets talk about some real problems: Mobs killing u from the other side of the wall or not staggering with their weapons when they hit a wall XD

[stiff atlas]

nerf barbs. mainly felling axe not having any counterplay if blocked.

[waxen garnet]

amen dude

[pseudo tendon]

Reduce the base speed of Barbarian to be kitable, can't one shot if you can't touch anything.

[frail blaze]

i like chaotic trade chat, reminds me of runescape ge

[finite nebula]

OSRS GE over crappy auction house any day

[abstract swallow]

Trade chat is good, it just needs better filtering and more delineations. And a 'found in raid' limitation.

[lost spruce]

my suggestion was bugged and its on cooldown, so i will say my opinions here

give rogues a blocking ability, the block area should be small so it requires precise blocks but can still block attacks, cant block arrows, both rapiers, swords, and daggers have blocking techniques in real life comat, and other games allow them to block.

debuff some mobs magic res so mages dont have to use all their spells just to kill two enemies

make a 4 party dungeon

[latent hatch]

yall, imagine a dwarven fortress map, similar to goblin caves but it would be basically solo high roller

[lost spruce]

some suggestions are good tho

[azure sandal]

its an alpha test no harm in trying new things

Although for some reason they thought that a buff to wiz cleric would be the best idea

[forest wave]

i have a suggestion, extend game :3

[lost spruce]

memes

[latent hatch]

devs need to take feedback into account but not dwell too hard on it. theres always a balance

tarkov for example went to shit because the devs didn't listen to the majority of the playerbase and decided to make the game annoyingly difficult

[lost spruce]

thats a different and much more babyrage playerbase dude

[finite nebula]

Dark and Darker is MUCH more entitled and raging than EFT lmao what

[lost spruce]

ive played both and this place is seemingly less so

[abstract swallow]

EFT is the most entitled community short of League lmfao ( okay except maybe the siege community )

[latent hatch]

i agree but still

[finite nebula]

y'all would crumble in the competitive pokemon scene...

[lost spruce]

also the devs are humans, and most patches and nerfs and buffs in every game, even the good ones in games, come from the players complaints on social medias

[dusk quail]

this dude said competitive pokemon

[azure sandal]

Majority of the playerbase doesn't even have 50hrs

[finite nebula]

okay "Bilbo"

[latent hatch]

the mobs are kinda lackluster in their current state

the whole appeal is that its a pvpve br with roguelike elements

[azure sandal]

I agree, but when they've should've fixed spawns instead you get some high % death spots. For example: my wiz friend and me spawned in the room with two bridges and a spiral tower going down. A nightmare skele spawned maybe 5 feet from the spawn and killed him in two hits.

[latent hatch]

we need dark souls level attack variations lmao (like 7 different animations per enemy)

[lost spruce]

can someone suggest one of these at the least? my cooldown is off, even if u dont agree with it, the reactions can say if its a good idea or not so dw if u dont think its good others might agree with u

[azure sandal]

Rogues are already elusive and have high dps, doesn't need the ability to block

[lost spruce]

if you bonk them twice they die

[dusk quail]

to everyone who downvoted my suggestion about them fixing the anti cheat thats causing all the lag, you are all troglodytes mouthbreathers

[azure sandal]

same with ranger/wiz

[lost spruce]

except those guys have ranged attacks, rogue has daggers and needs to get close, the other close up fighters have high hp, high dmg, or a shield

[azure sandal]

The difference is that rangers have traps and hallways to play off. Wiz has high damage splash and rogues have stealth that can almost insta kill

[latent hatch]

they got too much shit to worry bout rn, let them worry about anticheat after they make the actual playable product. thats a whole can of worms to even fix in the first place

[silver forge]

Devs should make it so I can be non binary/gender fluid next playtest. This game needs to really start supporting the LGBTQA+ community more. If everyone would be so kind to go to suggestions and upvote my idea to include Non-Binary characters available next playtest I would appreciate it.

[dusk quail]

ive seen some good ones get hella upvoted but some genuinely good ones get downvoted too. Most people will see it have at least 2 downvotes and then its just gg from there

[latent hatch]

the games not even in early access, this is playtesting phase

[frosty marsh]

Nobody cares. Literally nobody. You're the only person who is bothered about your identity in a video game. The rest of us are here to enjoy a dungeon crawler. Gtfo with your politics

[dusk quail]

the anti cheat was literally causing 0 lag last playtest im just saying. Idk why everyone is ignoring this problem its one of the most glaring ones rn separate from balancing issues.

[latent hatch]

i haven't even encountered a single cheater yet anyways and i have about 23hrs already. welp don't play high roller lmao (hehe)

[azure sandal]

Its very hard to know whos really cheating because its really easy to hide it

[frosty marsh]

Yes and a homosexual, but guess what, I still don't wanna see you turn games into your political activism playground. Not here for it, don't want it.

[latent hatch]

play as a sexually ambiguous skeleton then

[frosty marsh]

Click my DP. I'm mixed race, father is black. Failed again

[dusk quail]

xyo getting baited so hard lmaoo

[frosty marsh]

You clearly do. Throw more identity politics, it's super interesting

[latent hatch]

move this to general b4 the admins get angy

[scenic kettle]

asian company prolly never happening lets get real

[azure sandal]

fr

[dusk quail]

bro thats not fair they would have extra strength than everyone else

[scenic kettle]

its not racist at all thats a super stretch, this is a demo nothing is final that arguement would work on full release we dont even know if we will customize our characters or not

i dont know why we calling developers racist for not having different races available for a demo of the game, they defo should be working on core mechanics and gameplay over character identity

[dusk quail]

so true king alpha cam 😍 tell em

[azure sandal]

we're joking and baiting

[scenic kettle]

i hoped so

[frosty marsh]

You just don't matter enough ig.

[dusk quail]

omg tell him u literally slayed

[frosty marsh]

Yes, says that guy. lol

[scenic kettle]

how am i suppose to know its a bait i just came into the chat and it was the first thing i saw LMAO, i didnt get to read what u guys were talking about earlier

[dusk quail]

xyo for president

[scenic kettle]

when exactly does the game close

well yeah i was just asking cuz they didnt specify if it was pst or not, it would be in 3 min if it was est

[dusk quail]

tbh i just wish if ddosers were gonna attack at least do it full force. nuke the bastard for hours that way we at least have a chance for extension

[latent hatch]

terrorist mindset lmfao

[scenic kettle]

oh word? damn thank you

[dusk quail]

if they dont extend this playtest again u will see me on national news

[scenic kettle]

they defo not extending it

[azure sandal]

[latent hatch]

they need to just remove silver coins completely

[dusk quail]

yea remove silver add platinum

[latent hatch]

lol

[neon flax]

Fax. It feels impossible to kill full plate armor fighters sometimes especially if they have a cleric pocketing them

[brittle harbor]

No like a piece of paper you pay like a 5% fee for and you can make it 100g to 2000g

[latent hatch]

petiton for cooldown on certain spells like healing

[stark anchor]

I like one of the suggestion I saw recently where cleric healing spells healed slowly over time, like a health potion

[latent hatch]

thats actually a rly good idea

[brittle harbor]

Are you saying the stuff that noobs don't actually know the worth of and have to be found in the dungeon?

It is but where noobs don't deny a sale because of it.

[mighty willow]

he means bank checks

[latent hatch]

i saw a suggestion earlier about allowing rogues to use survival bows, actually sounds not so bad considering its pretty weak and hard to cheese with invis

i mean, ranger can be just as fast as rogue so not really valid

yeah but survival bow is weak enough that i think it would balance out

ranger no weapon, ive ran from plenty of rogues

[fair yew]

@prime geodewell someone got owned this playtest, it seems

[latent hatch]

they're already immortal running away forever anyways

[fair yew]

they aint tho

[latent hatch]

i feel like the only way to know would be playtesting with that

dude, caltrops and smokebomb rogue can run from literally any class or enemy in the game

[fair yew]

rogues are the worst class for high rollers, skill or not

[carmine current]

any idea why projectile damage reduction doesnt work on spells like magic missile or fireball?

[latent hatch]

is magic hehe

[carmine current]

its litterally a projectile. in the name its magic missile, what is a missile a projectile.

[latent hatch]

alright lets just allow every class to use every weapon

[carmine current]

becuase chain lightning is magic damage and isnt physical. magic missile is a projectile

[cobalt obsidian]

The caves are awesome tonight. Wish they were like this from the beginning. People actually bringing gear more consistently.

[latent hatch]

problem solved lol

i agree lmfao

[carmine current]

yes its magic but its also a projectile. arrows, throwing axes, and throwing knives are also projectiles and are reduced by both phys damage reduction and projectile damage reduction.

[latent hatch]

give wizards dual wield crystal ball

[carmine current]

then you could say they have blue balls

[latent hatch]

HAHAHAHAHAA LOL

alright now lets add a warlock class that has spells that drain their health when casting and they use swords/rapiers. blood pact magic

[fair yew]

really? tell that to the wizard who nearly oneshot me with fireball earlier

[latent hatch]

add paladin that has light heals and highest health value

finna do that irl

[carmine current]

i mean i find stuff like arrows to tickle since you can mitigate them so much with both phys damage reduction and projectile damage reduction. like ive gone into runs with just basic white plate gear and a ranger takes like 3-4x the number of shots to kill me as a fighter then it takes him to kill a barb. it seems like the way they tried to do it is that physical damage reduction works on all forms of physical (melee or ranged), magic damage reduction works on all forms of magic (melee or ranged), but projectile damage reduction only works on physical projectiles (ranged). its just inconsitent and doesnt make any sense. especially considering the best magic resist armors you can get give very minimal magic res, but also give projectile damage reduction. i think you should be able to build either way if you want a magic damage reduction set with projectile damage reduction it should severly hinder spell casters that only use magic missiles. if you want to stop ranger damage go physical damage reduction and projectile damage reduction. though in its current state its basically not possible to mitigate any magic damage more then 20-30% at best

[tired shard]

i feel like some stuff is over tuned in there and the amount of enemies can be overwhelming especially for low gear solo

[carmine current]

earlier in the test i think people didnt understand there was a fixed escape they could take, and with only 3 portals at the start of the test, it made it feel super bad considering the immenese amount of verticality in the map. personally i think most people just dont like it now because the verticality of it with how terrible the ending portals can be. not saying that its much of an issue since you can take a fixed escape, but there are issues sometimes with it.

[tired shard]

yeah but like idk classes shouldnt be kept from participating in it, not the type of meta id wanna see in the game

rouge can totally solo castle if you know how

[carmine current]

true but not everyone understands that and it feels terrible to fight 2-3 players kill them all just to have to back track through the mist for bit to get upstairs and find an escape.

[tired shard]

nahhh just invis

[gritty mortar]

is fireball weak?

[latent hatch]

we need just 3, slash, blunt, and magic (maybe piercing) magic robes give more magic defense than say plate armor does

[tired shard]

i dont think either class is bad its just a vastly different playstyle from normal. last playtest i mained rogue and ended it with 1.2k in the bank, and wizard probably has the highest 3v1 potential in the game

[gritty mortar]

damn what is a better spell for damage?

[carmine current]

rogue is fine at soloing any of the pve mobs if you know how to fight them. there are some that i personally think are to hard to fight alone as a rogue like skeleton champion and centaur.

[tired shard]

yes the goblin caves werent in the last playtest

[latent hatch]

goblin caves go crazy

[tired shard]

idk the game is a gear oriented game no class is super viable with just the starting shit

3 wizards in a comp sounds like trolling lmao they probably werent trying very hard a good wizard can go crazy

ok dude

[carmine current]

yes, but the best magic resist from a chest piece (the piece that gives the most out of all) is about ~40, while fine curias gets over 100. which is why plate alone can get you up to 60% damage reduction and 35% projectile damage reduction. however, when you look at that and consider that magic res can realistically get about 25-30% and maybe 35-40% if you are a barb. however, since you lose out on the ability to have projectile damage reduction reduce stuff like magic missile it will always do a ton of damage. meanwhile a fighter in all plate can tank ranger arrows to the head for days.

[latent hatch]

i would love for maces to do more to plate armor. makes sense

cleric buff lmao

[restive flower]

Ranger players: 🤓

[carmine current]

there are classes however, that have stronger default kits then others or work better with a default kit then others. ranger and mage have distint advantages in pve with default kits. mage spell base damage is also very high, where as all other classes rely on the rarity and type of weapon for teh base damage. meaning mage in a default kit is stricktly at an advantage.

[latent hatch]

(make attacks deal normal damage if you hit gaps in armor)

[carmine current]

yes it would make sense but the devs cant even properly make projectile damage reduction function properly to reduce all sources of projectiles. i wouldnt trust them immediately to make blunt weapons do more to plate armor targets, and blades to deal more damage to unarmored or leather and cloth targets.

[lament willow]

sounds like you only run into naked wizards friend

[latent hatch]

yeah wizards can be busted if you play them right

[simple badge]

nerf barb

[silver forge]

Hopefully we can play as transgender goblins next playtest. I really respect the inclusion of the LGBTQA+ in the game with the addition of the homosexual elfs.

[tired shard]

yeah but classes get kitted at a different rate i feel especially since this game isnt only pve

[cobalt obsidian]

well i think thats it for me this test. Was a good time for the most part. Ive come to the conclusion that the game is just wildly unbalanced in its current state for pvp. Massive power imbalances depending on the circumstances and situations, sometimes with little or no counter play. I think that should probably be a priority for them going forward. They said they wanted to release the game q3 this year right?

[latent hatch]

its better than tarkov lmao

[tired shard]

q4 but early access before then maybe?

[cobalt obsidian]

Im positive there are people that will be totally fine with that.

[latent hatch]

oh shit did they rly say q3

[tired shard]

there was a dev qna awhile back that said MAYBE EA q2 so this may be the last play test

[cobalt obsidian]

q3 or q4 cant remember which one.

[latent hatch]

its good but idk if its polished enough for a q3 release in that timeframe. sheesh

[tired shard]

especially since they are planning on adding new classes

[carmine current]

well tbh i think they have been trying to balance things more this test then in any of the others. they need more time to work it out. there are things that they also need to add like magic damage protection pots to diversify and make it more of a situational based combat encounters as well

[plush orchid]

Full release q3/4 and EA April-ish. Atleast according to some warden

[latent hatch]

for me, this game needs more items, maps, weapons, enemies, etc to feel fully fleshed out and i dont think they can achieve that in the span of such a short timeframe

[silver forge]

Thank you mods for protecting me against transphobic attacks while I was just trying to make inclusive suggestions about the game, I think with open minded devs we can really get the dungeons as inclusive as possible. MAY THE DARK GROW GAYER

[tired shard]

id be fine with cleric and barb staying in the same place but fighters with plate are kinda wonky and rangers getting +10 strength with spear is kinda crazy

[latent hatch]

may the dark grow gayer - i imagined a naked rogue dancing sensually as he walks up to stab you lmao

[gloomy garnet]

They should have a better way to view/filter suggestions like how vrising did

[tired shard]

bug reports

[carmine current]

yeah i could see that. ive never really thought to much of the clerics. they are an all around okay class with distinct advantages and disadvantages. there were some issues in the prior test like players with skeleton skins being considered undead and getting 1 shot by cleric, but other then that they have been in a fine spot. I would say if anything they are a bit imbalanced for pve highroller bossing. since almost every team runs 1 cleric in it. though same could be said for ranger since every bossing team in highroller hell runs rangers as well

[cobalt obsidian]

For the melee classes, they need to make throwing knifes / axes / ect non consumable. Rework the mechanics of them. That will add a lot for their kit.

[latent hatch]

alchemist class with poison potions i want it

[cobalt obsidian]

a barb without throwing axes will die to me 100% of the time

[tired shard]

triple shots fine i feel maybe a bigger hit to accuracy and dmg but the skill existence works well

[marsh snow]

"nERf THis NeRF thaT" THIS AINT OVERWATCH MF GIT GUD

[cobalt obsidian]

Without a singular doubt. They need them. For them to run out feels like a very bad thing.

[gloomy garnet]

They should have to stand still like wizards do for missile

[cobalt obsidian]

triple shot is actually really difficult to use without traps though.

[tired shard]

thats skill issue kinda

[cobalt obsidian]

Its the synergy of traps + rapid shot that makes that skill too strong.

the traps need to be reworked not the skill.

[gloomy garnet]

lol not really its only hard to hit when trying not to FF

[marsh snow]

as a ranger main yes i agree triple shot is bogus but ya dont have to nerf the whole class cus of it,

[tired shard]

theyre adding bard and i imagine that would be like a cleric replacement

[latent hatch]

oh god double buffs

[marsh snow]

besides crossbows are better

[carmine current]

somethings in games are imbalanced. if you could be immune to all damage and 1 shot every character in the game would you say that is balanced and just get good? would you say if a character just looking at you on the screen kills you would warrent a get good? no! sometimes there are just things that are overtuned or builds that people come up with that break game balance. for instance unique weapon Viola does magic damge on hit. paired with a rogue that has poison weapon, and a mage that gives the ignite buff. a rogue that goes for all flat additional magic damage gets a quadruple stacking increase from his gear with it. since it scales the Viola weapon effect, the poison damage, the ignite weapon buff, and the burn damage.

[lean vortex]

How do i make a non-binary/gender fluid character?

[latent hatch]

imagine a barbarian with a bard and a cleric buffing him at the same time

[marsh snow]

yeah i was just rantin then cus ive been seeing a lot of "nerf x" lately

[drifting citrus]

Dark and Darker if they don't fix their class balancing should just be renamed to "Barbarian Simulator"

[tired shard]

i think barb really is fine i wsh there were more ways to avoid player encounters tho like if there was an invis pot buff or something

[vital falcon]

it is kinda comical the amt of ppl saying that barb needs a nerf

[drifting citrus]

Nope, my ranger is lvl 1. Nice try. I'm a figher main switched to rogue then switched to cleric. Guess what. My most success was cleric. Completely broken. They need to fix it or I won't play again. Boring gameplay.

[latent hatch]

im a ranger main and if i see a barb i just run lmfao

[carmine current]

i get it. though there are some good points made at least sometimes for things that probably should be nerfed. for instance in the example i gave for quadurple stacking with additional magic damage. if you had +30 additional magic damage from all pieces of gear. you would then be doing over +120 damage from the base values. which is more then enough to one shot any class when you consider the base damage with that, which could boost that number over 160.

[tired shard]

i think the speed buff barb gets from an ability is crazy and makes it way easier to bully lol

[latent hatch]

unpop opinion: i think ranger is just good and every other class needs a buff, or something that gives them an edge in certain situations

[cobalt obsidian]

I was one shotting rangers with fireball my last few games.

[vital falcon]

it's not the barbarian it's the synergy between cleric and barb, that makes it seem so oppresive

[drifting citrus]

My disappointment in this game was immeasurable when I fought and toiled over the game playing as fighter and rogue. Figuring out the smallest nuances and strategies to enhance my skill and gameplay. Hm, this is how I block that, this is how I dodge that, I can hide here, I can shoot here, etc. Then I played cleric - My God the game became so easy. Just heal bro. LMAO THEN I SEE BARBS PLAY JUST CLICK BRO LMAO IMMERSION BROKEN

[cobalt obsidian]

Felt bad. They were in starter gear though so i guess?

[tired shard]

then play fighter and rouge lmao

[cobalt obsidian]

a geared rogue can pop out of stealth and twob or three shot you with no counter play.

[latent hatch]

but the thing is that if they nerf ranger it will end up being dogshit

[wild valley]

ranger > mage > the rest > fighter

[cobalt obsidian]

You either heard / saw them or you simply fking die. Its just shitty. Theres so much of that kind of shit in this game.

[carmine current]

i mean as a fighter main i laugh at all rangers. hell earlier today i walked up into a squad of 3 rangers that had 9+ traps on the ground. me wearing full plate just walked up and started disarming trap after trap after trap. not caring about the damage they deal. since it gets reduced so much while in plate

[drifting citrus]

Yes, fighter, rogue and wizard are the most fun classes. Wizard is a little broken but not as much as cleric and barb. But God they are so much harder. I stopped playing because them cus of how hard they were and I wanted to see mid-late gameplay. But like I said, I was extremely disappointed and it felt stupid.

[vital falcon]

disagree on snipers should be bad

[latent hatch]

nerf ranger and watch them go from top tier to literal pond scum

[marsh snow]

have trouble with barbs and rangers
just shield it bro

[vital falcon]

I mean they're good rn and I dont see anyone trying to start a chat war over them

[tired shard]

i dont think theres gonna be anything done to classes more than tweaks anyways because at the end of the day all classes have the potential to kill any other classs

[latent hatch]

they already suck at pve against certain enemies imo

[near gorge]

We want: 4- player possible. Bigger and more maps do it like Apex Legends where the map cycles for everyone (all 1 hr map x then all 1 hr map y). Nerf Ranger a bit. Increase movement speed overall for all classes. Red dungeon NOT EVEN POSSIBLE NOW. If players decide to enter red portal, they should be healed back to full health, and given at least 1 health pot. Add a roll animation. Wraith should drop better gear for such insane health. Champion too. Increase door size/width. Cannot function as wizard when ur tank/ team eats up the door. Add a gunner class! Add a necromancer class. Add samurai class. Add more throwables for only melee so melee players can fight back ranged or mages

[latent hatch]

sorry my inner rage at spiders came through

[tired shard]

play elden ring bro its play test and apex has been out for almost adecade ofc it has more maps what

[marsh snow]

dont copy paste stuff from the recommendations page we already see it

[carmine current]

use the spear or an arming sword?

[latent hatch]

still annoying lol

[silver forge]

LTBTQA+ inclusiveness in Dark and Darker isn't useless crap, nor is it political. I expect wardens to ban all forms of transphobia as they would with racism/sexism, May the Dark grow Gayer and please let us put our pronouns above our heads in dungeon.

[wild valley]

the problem is not ranger itself, the problem is how everyone one tap each other on the endgame. the dmg build is broken, so everyone that can one tap mfs from distance gets to be better thats why rangers and mages r better than the rest. an archer can literally one tap a cleric if he's full built on dmg and at the same time be one tapped by ONE ZAP from a full dmg built mage

[carmine current]

ive never had an issue with them. if you find them annoying as a ranger with arming or spear then when you play a fighter you must absoltely hate them

[marsh snow]

buff the rapier because its a cool sword and i like it :))))

[tired shard]

none of those class recs make sense

[marsh snow]

i feel like they wanna do dnd classes first

[carmine current]

the Viola weapon i mentioned earlir is a raiper and def does not need buffs. its considered one of the strongest if not the strongest items in the entire game. if anything just up the low quality ones base damage. just dont buff the high end ones. since that thing is just to broken as is

[wild valley]

aint bard and druid the next 2 classes? those seem cool, specially bard

[tired shard]

idk i can see them adding like 2 more classes really a cleric replacement and a wizard replacement

[plush orchid]

Why are suggestions 9/10 times just steaming piles of doodoo rofl

[vital falcon]

Pirate class maybe?

[marsh snow]

🤷‍♂️ public suggestions ig

[vital falcon]

honestly running the boat through a dungeon sounds terrible but thoroughly amusing

[tired shard]

armor for resistances weapons for dmg buffs and jewelry for stat buffs

[silver forge]

What a great and inclusive playtest everyone, I would like to personally thank the mods for making this discord a safe and tolerant place especially in a world where the LGBTQA+ community is so heavily persecuted. LONG LIVE THE LGBTQA+ warrior mods and long live Dark and Darker. May we wake up the morning of the next playtest with even more gender fluid options for customization. THE DARK GROWS GAYER

[carmine current]

yeah or they could make it so certain weapons or spells have less effectiveness for teh flat damage increases. for instance daggers should have less effectiveness with flat damage then a 2 hander. games like POE do that all the time

[tired shard]

lost my mind at that lmaoooooooooo

[cobalt obsidian]

personally, i'd like to see every class get an overhaul... more usable in game ability slots / utility.... that kind of thing.

[neat finch]

... and wider doorways and a character with a gun so this game can also become a mindless twitch shooter.

[cobalt obsidian]

otherwise balance will have to remain " situational" in its power dynamic i think. A rogue will just win in some spots... a mage will just dominate no matter what. lel

[wild valley]

I think that just nerfing the dmg perks and buffing the "tanky" perks would already help a lil, also maybe giving every char a lil bit more health idk. but yeah the game also needs to make gear scale not that aggressive and your idea seems fire

[carmine current]

the very first time i played the game in playtest 2 i asked my friend where is the dodge roll key. i still havent found that button. lol

[tired shard]

it would be waaaay more powerful than ranger if they wanted to add a gun class they just give ranger a gun

[wild valley]

cause like naked to naked fights they dont really one tapped each other, but when u get purple to purple both full build, they will literal either one tap or 2 tap each other pretty easily

[hearty holly]

why do yall say Fix barb? its not broken

[wild valley]

felling axe is broken, barb is good

[vital falcon]

maybe have this rage as something charged off either taking damage or dealing damage. So killing AI has more value

[hearty holly]

all the cl;asses are good and they all counter different classes, sorry your rogue dies in 2 hits to barb

[hollow hedge]

Imagine a rogue surviving a hit from a barbarian

[hearty holly]

base v base they do

[wild valley]

anything geared and being buffed by a mage and a cleric will turn into a killing machine tho

[marsh snow]

people keep sayin to release the game early access but a kickstarter/Patreon would be like 10 times better right? or am i dum

[carmine current]

well all classes in the game die to a full geared wizard in 1 or 2 hits. even from indirect damage like fireball splash (after the nerf)

[tired shard]

item like pavise but its a cannon and it destroys walls and also hammers destroy walls and the hammer and there should be defuseable bombs and the dude with the hammer should be named sledge

[hearty holly]

THANK YOU someone with sense here. Everyone else: Even fully decked out gear you can still die to some bullshit surprise attack like PLEASE use logic instead of raging with your emotions

[hollow hedge]

Nobody wants to get one tapped by a barbarian with whites and greens on. It feels bad and it’s bad design

[hearty holly]

naw you can duck under his swing and backup from it

[nimble sinew]

i think fights at the end of the game are way too coin flippy because of zone/portals/uncleared mobs: most of the times if you even do basic stuff such as looting important gear from dead teammates, find&open a portal you just end up being killed by zone, so it's better to just escape earlier, not worth to contact with another squad. (i'm talking about really late-game fights)
i guess increasing last zone timer by 30-50% OR adding 3-man portal at the end can fix the problem

[carmine current]

i mean it depends. a full tank fighter can face tank another full geared fighter or ranger for days. but gets 1 shot by wizards with nearly any spell.

[wild valley]

never had a problem with that comp meta when playing archer, but yeah barbarians with felling axes being with 2 supports to buff em will run over anything or anyone other than archers and maybe good mages

[hearty holly]

you legit just backed up my point i made earlier.... each class counters a different class

[hollow hedge]

I hate to tell you but most decent players are not consistently dying to zone…

[vital falcon]

just dont get hit

[sonic pendant]

500g to the next person to find me in trade. ness2

[tired shard]

idk i feel like if they made running more viable the buffs would be fine maybe like jumps only people with certain move speeds can get across with like a lever to pull a bridge up, just stuff that can let people get more distance

[hearty holly]

running is viable..... press x....put your weapons away... take your clothes off... and close doors behind you

[vital falcon]

I think a more interactive dungeon would be interesting, bridges, controllable traps, stuff like that

[carmine current]

yeah what is the counter to a good wizard? they have the most utility in the game. they are the fastest class in the game, they have teh easiest access to double dipping stats on their damage, they also have the cheapest gear to buy

[hearty holly]

a longbow to the face ONESHOTS wizxards, wizards MAXXED OPUT GEAR cant be above 100 hp unless they have insane +max hp stats, a headshot form a xb ow would work too for that

[vital falcon]

maybe not controllable traps tbh

[hollow hedge]

If you ask me, a player should only be able to receive a single magic buff at a time. That way we can stop pumping spells into players to turn them super saiyan.

[wild valley]

eh, I don't think that ultra cc's r good to the game

[vital falcon]

I think the lack of cc is rly good

[carmine current]

okay haste, invis wizard in full additional magic damge gear hits a single splash damage fireball. ranger is dead 100-0

[wild valley]

they do be hella toxic

[hearty holly]

the minute a wizard starts casting the spell they drop invis and it mkakes a noise
Bullshit happens but as is ranger counters barb and wizard (you have traps turn off torches for barbs) and you 1-2 shot wiz

[vital falcon]

and it can go the other way with a one tap to the head. so I think it's fine

[carmine current]

yeah and guess what the time it takes them to cast fireball is just about the time it takes for you to draw the bow.

[wild valley]

bro what u talking about, it doesnt even need all that, just one singular zap kills the archer lol

[hearty holly]

charge time is 2 seconds for fireball at base value and if you dont have kinesthia or the nimble hands thing youre a bad ranger

[boreal sun]

wizard gets countered by a single well-aimed high-rarity crossbow shot

[carmine current]

i was saying that the wizard with good gear doesnt even have to land a direct hit. they can just hit within a 4m range and 1 shot them. zap at least you have to aim at them

[hearty holly]

The amount of copium logic you have Shculze is insanity, a simple thing fixes all your grievances. be better. it is the 4th alpha but there is class balance

[wild valley]

no u dont, zap is a target skill. u just need to kinda aim at them

nop, 1 zap

[carmine current]

zap has to hit the target, by you having them on the cursor when you cast it. im saying if thats to much for you in gg wizard gear just use a fireball and kill them in 1 hit with the splash

[wild valley]

im just making fun about how strong mages r

[hearty holly]

Wizard has the highest skill ceiling though... the amount of good mages vs shitty ones is a huge gap, most mages cast 2 spells, hit team with 1 and die... oh and then that player never touches wizard again

[carmine current]

how is it copium. if you go into highroller almost every wizard is running +3-5 additional magic damage in every single gear slot. fireball scales both the hit, the splash, and the burn damage with additonal magic damage.

[wild valley]

true, but still not the reason why it should be that good

[hearty holly]

the ranger on the teams is usually the one i see landing kills in HR

[boreal sun]

I feel like people just watched a bunch of skytea videos and think wizard is OP because people ran at him while he was charging magic missile with no cover

[wild valley]

archers and mages r way better than the rest, play a triple ranged comp and u'll only lose if u want to

[hearty holly]

so delusional LOL. I mained ranger and this was my first playtest, def the best class, talk about broken? Ranger is broken

[boreal sun]

it's really weird how people focus on wizard when, by the actual data, ranger outperformed every other class last playtest, and I'd assume will also likely do well this playtest

[wild valley]

rangers do be the best class fr

[boreal sun]

wizard is high skill ceiling glass cannon, but is so gear reliant and has so much downtime/preptime that it's hard to say they're as generally useful of a class as ranger

[covert flume]

#extend

[carmine current]

i disagree with that. played against 3 rangers in HR earlier as tank fighter and just facetanked them to oblvion since phys damage reduction and projectile damage reduction stack to reduce their damage to near 0

[hearty holly]

Finally Candelle where did you come from these copium losers cant stop with the shitty logic train of "fireball op"

[boreal sun]

fireball is very underwhelming at the moment haha
I wish it did more splash than direct but that's just me

[wild valley]

dawg we were smashing our heads on the keyboard killing everyone around in the high roll dgs, fighters were the """""toughest"""" but still did not touch a single finger on us, we would just shoot him 10 times and he wouldnt get close to us

[boreal sun]

to be fair to schulze, chain lightning doesn't require aim and has very high base damage, which can be snowballed very well with damage/will stacking
very high party wipe potential, but also requires good positioning and opportunity recognition from the wizard

otherwise they risk one-shotting themselves lmao

[hearty holly]

and chain lightning can hit your melee teammates fighting the enemy team as well, there is ying and ying in this game

[carmine current]

it has nothing to do with fireball. your dumb if you dont understand what we were saying. even zap can one shot. chain lightning can one shot. it doesnt matter. hell you want to talk about broken, take a full additional magic damage gear build into HR then shoot chain lightning at the ground near a squad of 3 see what happens. all 3 die instantly. since the chain lightning can chain off the ground and doesnt even have to hit a player or mob to chain.

[boreal sun]

but it's the same sort of thing as "don't push the ranger holding triple shot"
it's area denial by threat of burst DPS

[carmine current]

was the fighter in full projectile reduction % plate armor?

[boreal sun]

yes, but my purple crossbow says they die before they cast it

[wild valley]

yes, we've killed full tanky built fighters with ease

[hearty holly]

The amount of copium and contradiction man is insane. Use a bow the wizard dies in 1 hit as well just like he 1 hits the rnager. waaa waaa waaa

[dry cipher]

Idk I feel like I'm in the opposite boat where I feel like I'm shooting somebody with two full quivers and they still kill me with half their health xD

[boreal sun]

I'd rather the incredibly squishy class be the one that one-shots, not the tanky one

[hearty holly]

are you using the base bow? Do you mostly hit chest? Or are you clipping limbs a lot there are a loooooooooot of factors

[tardy saddle]

this game should go on console aswell it feels right for it and probably would even be to hard playing on a controller

[boreal sun]

if wizard can one-shot people but has horrible hp and defense, that's more fair than barb one-shotting people imo

though I'd rather nobody one-shot in this game

[hearty holly]

i agree Candelle but being able to 1 shot doesnt make a class op imho when you can kite and evade that 1 shot pretty reliably with practice

[boreal sun]

kinda why I wish there were damage numbers
it can be really hard to tell if you headshot someone, or if you clipped their arm because they raised it while swinging a weapon

[dry cipher]

I haven't gotten to far so yea base bow but aiming for primarily head with occasional chest hits- If I'm going against somebody stacked I can understand not doing damage but I feel like any fighter or barb can walk over me xD

[carmine current]

idk what to tell you. you seem to think its fair that a class can 1 shot every other class in the game. hell you are thinking its fair that in a single spell cast that its okay they can literally kill an entire squad of 3. meanwhile shit like ranger can onyl realistically 1 shot the squishy classes, but also get 1 shot by those classes when those classes are geared as well.

[wild valley]

they cant get close bro, arrow hits make him slower for some time, if he sprints we just switch to hand and run, close doors, put traps. but most of the times we would just shoot him down a couple times, I was doing like 170 dmg to the head on the dummy bro, even if he got to reduce 75% of my dmg I alone would still do 15% of his health worth of dmg per arrow on the chest, if I got to headshot would be like 30% per arrow

fr ranger is ez money

[hearty holly]

Ranger requires kiting and skill, there is a bow that fires faster and in straight lines, there is a skill that makes arrows fly straight and with no drop.... This game has a massive skill ceiling and you both sound like 19 yr olds who cannot comprehend being able to outplay someone when they can oneshot you.

This game reminds me of the super difficult single player games my father played in the 90s and if they baby it down like yall want it will ruin the game
AND
to top it all off the devs HAVE SAID this is what they want the game to be. SO deal or leave

[carmine current]

idk, unless your gear was doing magic damage i actually dont see how you would be dealing any damage even in a squad of 3 archers vs a full damage reduction fighter. normally i just put on a protection pot and it takes them about 5 shots or so just to break a 25 damage shield. then you just put on another, and so on. eventually the rangers just die since the fighter uses a crossbow and can 2 shot them with it.

[wild valley]

dawg I was PLAYING ranger, I'm not complaining as someone who got one shotted, I'm complaining as someone who was one shotting everyone

[hearty holly]

Ahhh understood, my apologies misuynderstood your POV. Ranger is op af but again can die to lots of things

Schulze on the other hand sounds like a meathead fighter player

[boreal sun]

if you wanna not get oneshot, run barb with iron will

[hearty holly]

Hey Schulze did you know that wearing plate armor makes you take more magic damage.... or did you just miss that bit of info too

[wild valley]

bro fr u wasnt playing against good geared good rangers, I got like 350 kills as a battle cleric on high rolls and one day I decided to switch to ranger just for fun and it was the easiest time of my life

[dry cipher]

I actually do have to say the only thing that's one shotted me so far are barbs- Wizards are usually the least of my concerns-

[boreal sun]

good wizards are extremely rare, and half the time I find them, well
crossbow

[hearty holly]

Wizard skill cap is like how football has peewee and the NFL more peewee players that quit vs the ones who make it to the NFL

[carmine current]

no thats not the issue its this. i had ~85% phys damage reduction and 65% projectile damage reduction. also had 20% headshot damage reduction. so if you hit for 170 to the head on dummy it does 170x.15x.35x.8=7 damage

[hearty holly]

Thats not how that math maths Schulze the % are multiplicative and then you subtract the dmg.... insane how wrong someone can be constantly and still type

[dry cipher]

Fair enough xD

[boreal sun]

not how the math would work lol
it's base damage x phys power x perk bonuses x headshot multipler x damage reduction + true damage, in that order

[hearty holly]

thats also physical damage not magical damage as they have two different stats

[carmine current]

you do realize that is multiplicative. like jesus how dumb can you be.

[dry cipher]

that's not how multiplicative reduction works

[wild valley]

well bruv idk what to tell u, a fighter never touched a single finger on me, even barbs had more chances. if you're on a full plate ultra tank fighter, u'll literally never get close to me and I don't even have to switch to hands, u'll just need a couple more arrows to die

[boreal sun]

schulze headshot reduction means multiply it by 1.3x, not by .2
headshot is 1.5x by default
and they're probably using sharpshooter so it's really 1.45x

[hearty holly]

my brain is becoming smoother by every minute of this conversation

[rancid pebble]

Lmao

[kindred citrus]

Are you supposed to have the ability to see 90 degrees around a corner through your teammates spectating screen when you're near a door? i have a screenshot showing what I mean

[hearty holly]

yes you can go third person by pressing V by defualt

[wild valley]

ranger > mage > cleric > barb > rogue > fighter

[rancid pebble]

supposed to or able to, because they added the functionability for it so you may assume you are 'supposed' to

[carmine current]

are you all jsut mentally challenged 85% damage reduction is 15% of the physical damage is dealt. 65% projectile is 35% of the remaining damage. 20% headshot is 80% of the remaining damage

[past yew]

Wait, what's this about reductions and increases?

[hearty holly]

thats not how those stats work bro.... just like look on the wiki page or something at this point

[carmine current]

hence the .15x.35x.8

[boreal sun]

no schulze, a headshot is 1.5x
headshot reduction means the damage is multiplied by 1.5-(reduction)
so if it's 20% reduction, then you do 1.3x instead of 1.5x

[hearty holly]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How many people and in how many different ways must you hear the same thing we are all saying, that you are misunderstanding how it works.

[boreal sun]

additionally a dummy has -10% damage reduction, because it has 0 armor rating

[hearty holly]

@boreal sun huh is that how that works? its not just 0? @rancid pebble thank you for clarificfation
@carmine current you must be a sadist bro why you keep coming back for more

[rancid pebble]

This is true, if you see the scalars on the wiki you can see that 0 armor rating is -10%

[boreal sun]

you can't base your math on the dummy damage, you need the base damage and their phys power stats

[rancid pebble]

Where were you when I was trying to calculate all the stats for best possible rogue damage 🙄

[boreal sun]

playing the game idk

[carmine current]

do you not realize that regardless of when you multiply its the same if you mutliply it at the end or at the start. here you want some math to show its the same 170 with 1.5x for the headshot is 113.33 on chest or at 100%. take 113.33 and multiply by 1.3=147.33 then mutlply that by .15 giving 22.1, then multply that by 0.35 giving 7.73 the exact same number i mention before of 7

[boreal sun]

getting killed in full plate by a rogue who had enough damage stacking to slap me in 3 hits through 48% reduction lmao

[rancid pebble]

https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Stats#Physical_Damage_Reduction

[hearty holly]

What i am saying is your way of using the reduction is incorrect and does not reduce damage in the way you are describing.
is that preschool enough of an explanation? @rancid pebble even linked you the wiki

[rancid pebble]

first off, headshot multiplier is * 1.5 so it is 255

[hearty holly]

^^^

[carmine current]

dude ive done the same build all throughout the playtest since playtest 2 it works exactly as i said.

[rancid pebble]

How did this confusion start?

[boreal sun]

also schulze, there's a solution to this for the ranger
called armor penetration

[hearty holly]

ok whats your steam profile let me confirm this. Your game knowledge sounds as if you started this test

[carmine current]

ur so dumb and dont understand the person said that he did on the training dumby 170 with a headshot so that means with the 1.5x multiplier he did 170 not 255

[carmine current]

same exact name as my discord

[rancid pebble]

Seeing as i just asked how this confusion started you should clearly see that I did not read everything, relax and do not call people dumb

[hearty holly]

damn this response confirms my 19yrold theory yall have a goodnight im keeping my last 2 brain cells safe

[carmine current]

lol okay. go to bed cuz your to damn stupid to be arguing about a subject in school your probablly failing.

[boreal sun]

you're*

[rancid pebble]

too*

[boreal sun]

you cannot call someone stupid and also fail to use "you're" properly in the same sentence

[azure sandal]

Idk why they buffed cleric and wiz when everyone wanted the opposite

[rancid pebble]

Lol okay. Go to bed because you're too damn stupid to be arguing about a subject; in school you're probably failing.

[carmine current]

cannot not a word

[boreal sun]

people wanted cleric nerfs?

[shrewd wasp]

Let's balance based on noobs, wonderful idea bro

[azure sandal]

Well they buffed instead and now we have a shitty one shot meta

[rancid pebble]

People want cleric nerfs in the context of buff/pocket cleric

[boreal sun]

and they nerfed wizard, not buffed it?
I'm so confused

[azure sandal]

Wiz did not get a significant nerf in any form

[boreal sun]

change in base stats to have lower cast time iirc
and less casts on many spells
and fireball splash nerf

[hearty holly]

DELUSIONAL APES EVERYWHERE

[rancid pebble]

Wiz lost stats, lost scaling on those stats with lowered soft caps, lost spell capacity, damage on fireball (which helped lead lightning spells into popularity imo) and I may be missing some

[azure sandal]

More will

[boreal sun]

also yes, cannot is a word
sorry

[rancid pebble]

Tbh I have played against many wizzes in high roller who 1 or 2 shot me, and in the moment I'm mad and think they are 'broken' but they are a glass cannon build most of the time, or a buff pocket, either way I think they are balanced in a sense.

[carmine current]

you mean can't if we are correcting grammer

[shrewd wasp]

Is your name referring to the space between your ears?

[azure sandal]

The lowered spell capacity is pointless and fire ball still one shots.

[rancid pebble]

can't is a contraction, it is actually less formal than cannot

[boreal sun]

can't is a contraction used to shorten "cannot" or "can not"
but "cannot" and "can not" are still proper grammar

[azure sandal]

Wiz and cleric having more will is so much more valuable than a slight nerf on fireball and "lost stats"

[carmine current]

no can't is a contraction specfically shorten "can not" not "cannot"

[rancid pebble]

Imagine arguing over grammar and semantics instead of the real argument you guys had earlier, lol

[median breach]

hopefully next play test they will add an training lobby to test out weapons and spells and armor builds on the dummys

[rancid pebble]

bro is making us bring out the etymology... dear lord I can't, shit I mean cannot

[boreal sun]

schulze is trying to argue against my pointing out his hypocrisy in calling people stupid while also using "your" incorrectly

lmao

I'm happy to let him dig his own grave

seems like a good time to go to bed instead of arguing with a teenager over grammar

[azure sandal]

The game's health was much better when the most op thing was infinite arrows on ranger and not over buffing a fighter/barb for one shot potential

[median breach]

i was wearing full plate armor (purps) and still got 1 shot by a barb with a green felling axe lol

[rancid pebble]

Now that playtest is officially over I can't wait for all the debate between meta, what/who was op, and all that. Exciting

[azure sandal]

Slower more interactive gameplay vs fast fights that felt impossible to players without one shot potential

[boreal sun]

I'm just waiting for the statistics to see if ranger overperformed again so I can feel validated in thinking everyone's misdirecting their ire

[azure sandal]

Atleast when ranger was op it took skill Lmao

[rancid pebble]

Ye true, loved reading the stats. Worst thing about the stats is using them in debates and no one believing you like when I cited that wiz had bad pick rates, bad PvE rates, and other things last PT

[boreal sun]

ranger overperformed last playtest, and got no nerfs this playtest

[azure sandal]

No nerfs?

[boreal sun]

not since last test

[azure sandal]

No shot you're real

[boreal sun]

I don't remember seeing anything about ranger in the patchnotes this time around

[rancid pebble]

They nerfed damage with dropoff, it is minimal, and some reworks. I believe new reloading speeds for different bows, maybe a survival bow buff and or a longbow nerf, cant remember

[boreal sun]

ah right
the tiny damage falloff at range
forgot about it because of how insignificant it was

[azure sandal]

I'll list 'em damage dropoff, arrows don't travel as far. longer pull back

[carmine current]

i mean you posted the wiki showing at 0 armor its -10%. fine that means that 170 from a headshot is even less since the exact damage at 0% phys damage reduction would then be 154.54 (dividing the 170by 1.1), then a non headshot is 103.03 (dividing the 154.54 by 1.5). then you take the 103.03 multiply by 1.3 (1.5-20% headshot reduction) giving you the number of 133.939. then take mutilply it by 15% (due to the physical armor reduction) giving you the number of 20.09. At which point you multiply that by 35% for the projectile damage reduction give you the number of 7.0318, meaning you still deal 7 damage a shot. wow! so after all of that imagine its still the same exact number i said.

[rancid pebble]

Real. I had to play ranger because after people got geared I couldn't solo high roller on rogue or do much, and for bossing you need a bow pretty much. Feels bad

[boreal sun]

they fixed the arrows not flying farther within a couple days of the test starting

[azure sandal]

Tiny? after 10 meters you can see a 10 damage dropoff

[uncut bloom]

Would be nice if you could take off a ranger trap if its on a slope. Just lost a 1k kit and i killed the ranger. Couldn't undo the trap... Just sat there for like 5 mins

[vital falcon]

in a relatively enclosed dungeon... yeh pretty small

[uncut bloom]

Does it really last indefinitely until you undo it? A little ridiculous

[boreal sun]

it is not a 10 damage dropoff
unless you're using like... a 200 damage bow lmao

[azure sandal]

closed dungeon? the best areas for ranger were nerfed (bridge, the room with two bridges, church, etc.)

[ashen tide]

Can Confirm. With my testing it's about 1.5 of damage per meter on longbow

[rancid pebble]

Idk, ran a lot of ranger tonight and won probably 15 in a row? Damage drop off felt neglible with gear, maybe it matters but im still 2-3 shotting people

[azure sandal]

Nerfed as in playability because of damage drop

[azure sandal]

Anecdotal? felt?

[boreal sun]

I mean ranger needs more significant nerfs than that regardless
having a range advantage will always be an extremely significant advantage, and it's odd that they have movespeed/burst healing/sustain/interaction speed/good melee options/burst damage on top of that incredible advantage

[rancid pebble]

Ill say it in this chat cuz I talk about it a lot in other ones, if the devs were more transparent with systems then we wouldnt have pointless arguments

[past yew]

idk what high roller looks like (mostly because I'm a bit newbie), but ragging was easiest with barb anecdotally

obviously, stats influence the meta a lot more, but I can see where the complaints are coming from.

[broken patio]

I have a question here, The shop says "no competitive advantage" but the elf skin gives agility and reduces strength which is good for wizard no? is this competitive advantage a false statement weather it be outdated or just a different direction of the game or are we actually going to put competitive advantage items in the shop?

[azure sandal]

I would be fine with more nerfs if they buffed the traps to what they were

[rancid pebble]

You're right. I should say that the nerf did not affect the game in a meaningful or impactful way, ranger did not have to play differently

[ashen tide]

We went from that's not real, to even if it is it doesn't matter, very quickly.

[rancid pebble]

No numerical advantage. They are lying with competitive advantage. If they add dwarves like many people want then it is definitely a lie

[azure sandal]

The way you played. slower pull time and arrow time = less dps

[boreal sun]

because it doesn't matter, yes

[ashen tide]

Chip damage before the full fight commitment matters a lot actually.

[rancid pebble]

I notice fighters are defending ranger, that is another thing. You shouldn't be worried about bow nerfs, the right way to nerf ranger is to nerf him not the weapons.

[azure sandal]

The only reason they nerfed traps was because everyone had maybe 50 hrs claiming they knew what was best

[boreal sun]

yes
it's a unique strength they have
which is why it doesn't matter how little damage they're doing, the fact that they can represent damage AT ALL while the enemy cannot threaten their own damage is a significant advantage

[ashen tide]

Only if that damage is meaningful, yes

[carmine current]

its such a minor amount that they dont consider it a competitive advantage. if you are trying to min max a wizard and never plan on doing melee ever. then yes agility on wizard is better then strength. so you are at an advantage.

[boreal sun]

all damage is meaningful
especially if it's riskless

[unborn plume]

why barbs have throwing axes and rouges have throwing knives, just buff those a tad and the problem is solved

[azure sandal]

They don't need buffs. They already do crazy damage + weapon damage

[harsh belfry]

.shortinfo [1606881 ]

[eager sable]

Please provide a valid suggestion ID.

Protip: If you enjoy Suggester, consider helping to support us by voting on bot lists! If you have a minute, click here and vote.
If you want to help even more, you can use .vote to see the full list of sites where you can vote. Thanks for your support!

[ashen tide]

That's not how breakpoints work. If I three shot you with 10 damage overkill or 1 damage overkill that 9 damage difference is not meaningful.

[rancid pebble]

I still think giving rogue a small bow like a short bow, smaller crossbow, or survival bow would be better than better knives. Good rogues already use knives to their fullest potential and it is a bad faith argument to say that better knives can make it competitive against a ranger with a bow

[harsh belfry]

.shortinfo [1606881]

[eager sable]

Please provide a valid suggestion ID.

Protip: You can use .notify to enable or disable receiving DM notifications when an action is taken on one of your suggestions

[boreal sun]

I mean
ranger does far more than 9 damage in the time it takes for someone to approach them

it's more like removing 30-50% of someone's health before they can get to your team

[carmine current]

fighters defend rangers, not becuase they dont want to see bow nerfs. good fighters dont even use bows, they use the crossbow. Rangers just dont do damage to them if they are built correctly.

[harsh belfry]

.help

[eager sable]

Suggester Help • Page 1/2

Module: Suggestions

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[azure sandal]

After the ranger nerfs im sure fighter is better than ranger now

[rancid pebble]

interesting take, as a ranger who played 4 hours of high roller tonight I will tell you fighters do take damage with a bow : ), they often die to it when it hits them in the head!

[harsh belfry]

.shortinfo [1606881]

[eager sable]

Please provide a valid suggestion ID.

[azure sandal]

Is the tank while being the range. Plus free heal and sprint

[rancid pebble]

.shortinfo 1606881

[eager sable]

Suggestion from Sunder#4876

[Change the default placement of items when looting to attempt top to bottom instead of left to right. simple QoL that will make managing inventory a step above what it is now. As it stands now there are so many clicks involved in freeing up space for gear if you've been looting small stuff. Even if you plan ahead and premptively organize your loot its still a lot of clicks.]

Opinion:

+1

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1606881 | Submitted at · Feb 16, 2023, 7:14 AM

[harsh belfry]

I give up, how do I link a suggestion here? the ID is 1606881. Thank you and god bless

[carmine current]

as a fighter that has been at about 90% phys damage reduction or more since day one of the test i can tell you with certainty that they do not ever damage me (meaningfully damage me). with the one execption being the ranger that was using teh unique bow pestilence. Which does 12 magic damage over 3 secs on hit.

[boreal sun]

isn't up-down how PoE does it? or am I misremembering

[rancid pebble]

great suggestion, maybe it is the human brain but as an english speaker this change would help a lot. Maybe for other writing systems the top down change wouldnt matter but I always organize in a way that this would help

[harsh belfry]

its how D3 and PoE do it, its normal IMO for most looters

[boreal sun]

just sounds like rangers need to invest in some armor penetration/true damage

or have a rogue teammate with weakpoint

[azure sandal]

The gear diff and not the skill diff. Solution shouldn't be get better gear. any good player should slay with greens

[boreal sun]

choosing the right gear is a skill in of itself

[rancid pebble]

I don't doubt your personal experience. Im sure you wouldnt lie. My personal experience contradicts yours though therefore I have no reason to believe your point. I have fought fighters with 95% reduction and it is doable, you just have to be geared. And if you are not dying to rangers then i suppose they arent 'built right' as you said earlier.

[boreal sun]

sadly not how it is, with how damage stacking works right now

it's why one-shotting barbs are so complained about, you can stack enough damage to make the TTK instantaneous

[rancid pebble]

I sort of agree with this. But it also goes against the way the devs seem to be building the game so far

[azure sandal]

I hope they seek to balance the gear diff. Lots of players on leaderboards never seen before

[rancid pebble]

In between the EA, i want to calculate the absolute BiS gear set

[boreal sun]

I want to see flat damage stacking reduced significantly
axe specialization is silly, divine strike is silly, +5 weapon damage on gear is silly

[azure sandal]

Max I want +2 weapon damage with bless nerfed into the ground. Felling nerfed to hit more like a bardiche

[carmine current]

yeah that would make then do more damage for sure. however the roll values for true physical damage are lower then the roll value for additional physical damage and weapon damage. so they almost always gravitate to those. Armor pen is a good option as well. Though at the same time fighters can just pull out a crossbow and shoot back, so its not like they are defenseless at ranged.

[rancid pebble]

Yes, all of this ties back into how they calculate things on their side. The fact they have 5 ways to up weapon damage and most people think they are the same except experienced players shows how opaque it is. Anyone else remember when tru magic dmg stacked on rogue poison? that was so stupid. And in the new repoze video he says his rupture does 11 damage per second on top of the 20

[lament willow]

man i'm already bringing an inventory full of throwing axes
not every game needs to be cod.
we want to bonk people in melee

[boreal sun]

flat damage and phys power bonus are not equivalent at all, and I don't understand why the rolls for phys power are so low on gear compared to the weapon damage

+5 weapon damage will always be more significant than 5% increase, unless you're already operating with 100+ base damage

[rancid pebble]

Wdym? I dont understand the are so low on gear part. Oh yes, that part. It is always funny to me seeing a green with +6phys power being sold for hundreds more than a blue

[carmine current]

phys power is only better then flat damage when your flat damage is over 100 from a normal hit. that being said not many weapons can easily get to over 100 base damage without getting a bunch of weapon damage and additional physical from gear already

[lament willow]

physical power above 15 is 1 point = 1% damage increase
unless you are doing above 100 damage flat, it is less than +1 damage. Yet +weapon damage and +additional damage both scale better from gear rolls than phys power

[boreal sun]

yeah it's very silly
clearly they didn't really think the numbers through

[rancid pebble]

no not at all

[lament willow]

The vast majority of players think that phys power = +1 damage per point though. I've told like a hundred people otherwise

[boreal sun]

granted they did say balance wasn't a priority, they just wanted to get the game up and running

[unborn plume]

my point was less exactly what I said and more there are ways to nerf archers by buffing aspects of other classes

[rancid pebble]

So far balance, qol, and content arent a priority according to interviews from the own devs : )

[boreal sun]

I just want the game to not crash 5x a day and for flat stacking to be less prevalent

that's my wishlist for next opening

[carmine current]

if they did they would realize how much the flat damage favors fast attacking weapons like daggers, or multi hitting spells like magic missile

[azure sandal]

I under stand that, but I wish the game was slower in terms of combat. flowed much better that way

[lament willow]

the colour of an item doesn't matter. only armour rating, weapon damage, and what rolls it gets. a purple glove with mag resist, interaction speed, and resourcefulness is basically worthless. a green glove with +3 weapon damage is worth 200g minimum.

[rancid pebble]

That is something that will be hard to balance, too slow and it will be boring like Apex ranked, or csgo

[azure sandal]

Apex ranked isn't that bad. Well I haven't played in a year tho

[boreal sun]

I don't want rogues three-shotting me before I can swing once
but I also don't want cleric heals to outpace all damage

[rancid pebble]

In certain cases you are correct. But take this example. 42 dmg longbow with +6 phys power vs a 45 dmg blue long bow with no damage stats. The blue does more damage : )

[lament willow]

apex leg ends, one of the more played worldwide games that has made money for years now
lots and lots of money
what a terrible game to be compared to

[rancid pebble]

Never said it was bad, just super slow, boring, and people only third party since it is safer than pushing. I was showcasing how this game could get turned into that which is not always enjoyable

[carmine current]

the easy fix is to add an effectiveness modifier to every weapon and spell for flat damage. so the weapons that are to strong because of it can individually get hit instead of others that arent as broken with it.

[lament willow]

depends on the rest of your gear. if you have +9 additional damage from pants chest rings amulet boots gloves, the 42 damage longbow will do more damage.

[rancid pebble]

If i were comparing player bases and profit then no it would not be, but I wasn't.

[boreal sun]

I mean an effectiveness modifier would be its base damage, and they could just implement % increases
automatic scaling

I dunno if that'd be the best solution, but it's a simple one

[azure sandal]

I wonder how a percentage system would work, but that would be probably a nightmare

[rancid pebble]

There was no gear, just the bows. You may want to reread what I said to better understand.

[lament willow]

automatic scaling for bonuses based on attack speed is a very basic thing, been used in games for like a million years. Industry standard. There's really no reason not to put it in. If they just reduce weapon damage + rolls, then +weapon will be standard for rogues, and +phys will be standard for 2 handers, but it will still be mandatory for either

[carmine current]

i mean games like POE do it all the time. so it has merits and there are also other games that do the same thing like undecember.\

[lament willow]

if you're only comparing pure bow damage and not considering other item slots, that's very unrealistic, and should not be reflected in prices. The bow with +phys power is selling for more, because the people buying it have other gear that adds flat damage so overall, despite having lower damage, the bow with +phys is doing more damage than the higher damage bow without +phys.

[rugged pilot]

Crazy considering most patchnotes have been wizard nerfs

[lament willow]

basically, ranger want do more damage. they buy bow that do more damage. If that's through base damage or rolls, most people don't care.

[boreal sun]

it's very weird yes
considering the statistics for wizard last playtest

[carmine current]

i mean good wizards are crushing pretty much everyone. the class is to oppressive with double dipping flat damage scaling from the initial hit and from the dot.

[rancid pebble]

You are right, there were two patches for wizard. I believe my message said based on the words from the devs in interviews

[lament willow]

likely they are doing that thing where they are balancing based on the top end of streamers etc. There, wizard is still very strong.

[boreal sun]

they did say they want sorcerer to be like "old wizard" (aka cracked at combat), so current wizard is being changed to fit their actual idea

I think that may be the real reason

[rugged pilot]

And the rest was very specific attention to cave troll, which is more content

[boreal sun]

it may not be a (permanent) wizard nerf, because old wizard will return as sorcerer

[rancid pebble]

Witthout more spells wiz will suck then, they may as well wait with the nerfs

[lament willow]

i've only played a bit of wizard. But once I got some +damage gear, it seemed extremely competitive. Great buffs, hard counter fighters, and can even play tag with rangers with zap.

[rancid pebble]

Also with the hindsight of PT being over, i dont think barb was as op as theory crafted said they would be after the 2h revert

[boreal sun]

"hard counter fighters"

my crossbow would like a word with you

[carmine current]

i mean plenty of games do it. if you want a competitive game you have to balance not just around the bottom tier players but also the best players

[rugged pilot]

1 shot chain from around a corner wants your location

[boreal sun]

can't say I've ever even seen that maneuver

[rancid pebble]

Balancing is such a hard topic. I used to mentally picture who would win if they were both terrible and great players. In games like overwatch it works but in this i doubt it would. Too situational

[lament willow]

is the word 'reload times'
but okay, maybe it's not a hard hard counter, but I was having fun with overconfident shield boys who'd push in to a visible barb or something and then panic when I drop lightning at their feet twice

[rugged pilot]

There was a video of it in chat yesterday 'watch this and say its shit' in search

[boreal sun]

lightning strike is a very fun spell
unless you mean chain lightning
regardless, fun

[lament willow]

don't think that works. Chaining the floor never chained for me

[carmine current]

https://youtu.be/F68FL-9Ku_w?t=175
at the timestamp for it you can see what he is talking about. you can hit the ground with a chain and hit players around corners

[rancid pebble]

He hits a corpse

[lament willow]

you can send a lightning bolt around corners though. lightning bolt was probably my favourite spell overall. the sheer dumb shit you can do with it and the synergy with slow is great

[boreal sun]

well
I feel like that's something that may be changed in the future, if it DOES function like that

[rugged pilot]

It still oneshots players around a corner

[rancid pebble]

Indeed it does, but not by “hitting the ground”

[boreal sun]

did it oneshot? I counted two chain lightnings

[lament willow]

I doubt it would at any gear level. Secondary hit from chain lightning is not the full damage.

[rancid pebble]

Only works if you have the situation for it, like most things in this game

[rugged pilot]

They can do the same with your teamate, or enemy, or AI

[foggy pelican]

so like because the servers have been screwed all day maybe another extension Daddy Ironmace

[lament willow]

Instacast perk though + chain lightning is incredibly funny. you just walk in on some team that's doorcamping and go BOOM BOOM someone's usually dead and the others are screaming

[rugged pilot]

It can, we've seen wizard oneshot with Zap.

Chain does more base damage

[lament willow]

you'd have to have a lot of gear for that and probably 'oneshot' would be a wizard

[boreal sun]

guess it depends on the magic defense of the players involved
obviously a rogue would get one-shot with their negative resist, but
I don't know the theoretical maximum of zap and how that interacts with dark plate/leather etc.

[rugged pilot]

If Wizard has enough damage he can chain once and wipe a 3stack lmao

[boreal sun]

dark plate gives +40 magic resist, so
people acting like fighter necessarily has bad magic resist is a lil silly

[lament willow]

I've never seen a wizard with a full set of +magic, +magic %, +cast speed gear on even half their pieces
and I never want to

[lusty scarab]

separating players into gear-based games is no different than sbmm. change my mind

[rugged pilot]

Barb can take a +100

[carmine current]

only barb would have a meaningful amount of magic res to matter. all other classes just cant get enough.

[lament willow]

all the other pieces you want have -5 and your mr isn't great to start with
a really good fighter set has physresist + magresist pieces, enough to get a healthy magresist but you still won't be able to get it high enough

[rugged pilot]

I agree, and has no place in game

[boreal sun]

good players can choose to go in with low gear and get matched with other low gear players

it makes sense that "good" players will be more geared more often, but you can also just choose to go default as a high-skill player

[carmine current]

my fighter set gave me 20% magic damage reduction it made it so that full geared wizards would hit for about 80 damage with a zap, instead of 100

[lament willow]

'guys I killed 10 people last match i'm a god'
lemme just check the gear of those people real quick mr breeze

[boreal sun]

but yes anything resembling skill-based matchmaking makes no sense in a game with such insane RNG and free-for-all combat

[lusty scarab]

the point of the persons suggestion was the help new players. your comment shows that it would never work that way

[rugged pilot]

You can do the same thing by putting a good weapon on but making it as low gearscore as possible and wiping noobs in starter gear with a powerful bonkstick

[boreal sun]

I've seen a good solution, where there's a queue specifically for people who are on the first x levels of their "account level", so it'd be fair to new players for at least a couple hours of gameplay

[lusty scarab]

id be fine if they made new player lobbies only available to lvl 4 and under characters MAYBE.

[carmine current]

didnt the devs say when they make the B1 map that it will be catered towards newer players/ begginers? then B2 and B3 would be for everyone else

[lusty scarab]

no clue. i feel that they should do char and account levels. account maybe being the combined total levels of all your characters? or maybe it has its own xp system

[lament willow]

this game is going to have the same problem this kind of game always has. High gear people farming noobs to the point noobs can't get gear or survive and stop playing the game. There's people who never get bored of farming noobs, i've played with some of them in other games, their enthusiasm for killing people who have no idea what is happening is endless and they will boast about it til the end of time.

it won't get solved though, it'll just be what happens and the game will either be fun enough to keep people playing despite it (like tarkov) or it won't be and it will sputter out due to that problem

[rugged pilot]

People keep trying to ask for fairness, the game ain't fair and you ain't special

[lusty scarab]

account based things would also make it easy to use a friends list for the person, nut having to add each character to a friends list

[rugged pilot]

The games mechanics do not care about you at all.

[cobalt obsidian]

Solo HR lobbies next test please.

[lusty scarab]

oh i love how brutal the game is. but a lvl 5 barb isnt much different than a lvl 1 barb

[rugged pilot]

Super low priority

[lament willow]

HARDCORE game for REAL MEN
GET GUD OR GET GONE SCRUB LOLOLOL
me watching the steam players graph start high and dip downwards over a 6 month period

[cobalt obsidian]

🤣 kK

[boreal sun]

a certain degree of fairness is crucial for maintaining a playerbase in any PvP setting
if the game isn't fair and there isn't effective counterplay, then it ceases to be valid as a PvP experience and will cause endless frustration for all involved

of course, this game is a mix of PvP and PvE, and it's pretty clearly not trying to be a competitive game, so it's not the highest priority, but to decry fairness in its entirety is a mistake

[rugged pilot]

Very different, they get 1 extra perk. Lvl 1 barb is smash, lvl 5 barb could be +100 magic resist.

Massive difference

[lusty scarab]

im talking in terms of game knowledge

[cobalt obsidian]

They have advertised player ran tournaments for the game.... All games that feature pvp should strive to be competitive for obvious reasons. Balance is fun. I promise. I have had that debate too many times to do it again though lol.

[lament willow]

the argument that '''unfair''' single meta pvp games are good because people 'should just' play that meta and if they don't they are 'just scrubs lol' is one of the funnier and more prevalent arguments you'll find about game design
it's why listening to players is a terrible way to design a game

[boreal sun]

this game cannot and will never be balanced or competitive as long as it's as RNG-based and uncontrolled as it is now

[cobalt obsidian]

It can and could be.

[boreal sun]

if everyone agreed to use very specific gear and had private lobbies, sure

[rugged pilot]

Tell you whats unfair, that you can even get rezzed in-game.

Its even more unfair most of the match you CAN come back but you are watching your team play and extract

[unborn plume]

its uh, an alpha test. Balance comes after everything works

[lusty scarab]

you could say that about apex. or any competitive br out rn

[cobalt obsidian]

Gear is a grind that competitive players do to compete.

[boreal sun]

correct
they are not valid competitive experiences

[cobalt obsidian]

You can choose to not be competitive thats all you are saying there. Same with MMO'S.

[lament willow]

classes and their interactions can be designed such that multiple methods of play are viable and there is a rock paper scissors dynamic that can be subverted with appropriate skill - soft counters, multiple per interaction, different builds interacting on each other in various ways that is all roughly balanced so nothing is overpowered.
the randomness of team comp and the BR setting are not inimical to balance. They just create situations where people can be outmatched and have to outplay or out-think their opposition to succeed - which people actually like, BR tournaments get crazy views compared to stuff like CS.

[boreal sun]

I'm not talking about a competitive mindset or people playing to win, I'm talking about like
the kind of thing you'd give money for in a tournament

[past yew]

another issue is that there will always be two metas that are actively antagonistic to each other: Ragging and Rolling.

High Roller meta is based on who scales best with gear, has more options in teamplay, etc.

Ragging meta is how much you can get with nothing, and is usually just cheesing out damage.

[boreal sun]

you can't measure who is the best if RNG interferes, you need a controlled environment

[rugged pilot]

Can't wait to hear the esport commentary when a wizard is opening a door

[unborn plume]

dunno having ten consecutive rounds where the goal is to save up good loot for the last couple games seems like an interesting setup

[lament willow]

making strategic or tactical choices based around rng is a major part of any competitive sport and increasingly part of video games. even chess has timers to introduce mistakes that must be played around or exploited. 'everything must be static and faster hand speed or clicking ability should be the only thing that matters' has killed hundreds of games stone dead, dead on arrival as boring piles of crap no-one plays.

[plain onyx]

@keen onyx 1 more week 1 more week

[boreal sun]

I dunno
anytime people try to push things like fortnite or apex or runescape or dead by daylight any other rng-fest of a game as "competitive", it just laughs in the face of what competitive games are

[cobalt obsidian]

Over a long enough time line RNG balances out... thats why people do best of threes , ect ect ect.

[rugged pilot]

Nah tournaments in starter only

WOW okay so this team has decided to go for the circle room, the ranger has put 27 arrows in the mummies head but its still alive, brilliant

[lament willow]

ah, a true scotsman

[boreal sun]

not at all my argument
I have a history with fighting games and those aren't "static hand speed etc."
they're about a mixture of conditioning and execution, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind who the victor was

but with RNG, there IS doubt

[drowsy moon]

Games can be competitive without being totally balanced. RNG in a certain capacity adds to the fun anyway. It's just like EU4. A lot of the game in MP is skill based, but there are aspects (Rulers, Battle rolls, etc) that are RNG.

[cobalt obsidian]

The better player should win X amount of time considering the RNG elements... EXTEND the time far enough that the better player wins.

[boreal sun]

the more RNG plays a part, the less certain you can be that an outcome was "real"

[cobalt obsidian]

This isn't a new concept for competition......

[rugged pilot]

Apex is very competitive but the rest, no so much

[lament willow]

if you decide that playing around rng and working with the situation you have are not 'real' skills, then you can say that rng is purely detrimental to competition, aka the clash of skills. However, that's just wrong. Those are real skills. They take time, effort, and intelligence to develop and they are very hard to perform, and success at them can be measured. They demonstrably exist and some people are worse at them and some people are better at them.

[boreal sun]

it's not a valid competitive environment if a participant can lose purely because of luck, no fault of their own and no good play on the opponent's end
if someone can lose because RNG gave them a strict disadvantage, then that's a problem in an environment where the goal is to reward skill with money

imagine having a tournament for mario party
it'd be ridiculous and nobody could take the result seriously

[unborn plume]

they do have those

[boreal sun]

that's on the extreme end, but any RNG is bad for competitive play

[rugged pilot]

You can take it seriously, you just shouldn't

[boreal sun]

the less RNG, the more valid the competitive experience, and the more valid the victor's achievements

[waxen raven]

A better analogy would be a card game. They are competitive with rng elements

[lament willow]

The amount of rng in any competitive BR is not enough to meaningfully affect the result of play over the typical tournament (multiple game) format. There is no BR game that has any competitive scene of any kind that has enough RNG to affect the results across the amount of games typically played in a tournament, except by extreme luck which is rarely repeated and you will see happen like once per 10 tournaments if that, usually for a team without any chance anyway. Like a football player tripping and breaking their leg while buying an icecream on the beach the day before a game level bad luck.

[unborn plume]

its not like this is trying to become the No.1 esport, it is intentionally unforgiving with luck and skill both needed to do well

[past yew]

I mean, competitive poker is a thing. I'm not saying this to score points, mind you, but testing risk assessment is a legitimate form of skill.

I still agree that the RNG in Dark and Darker makes it laughable to consider it a legitimate tourney-focused game, but still.

[boreal sun]

if the BR has random weapon spawns and random bullet spread, on top of the free-for-all nature where anyone can get third-partied at any time, then it has already passed the point of no return
it is simply not valid

also 2 minute slow mode, lol

bedtime I guess

[cobalt obsidian]

Its no where near esport ready O.o

[lament willow]

You can set arbitrary thresholds of what you will or won't accept in terms of randomness but you keep stating this as some kind of absolute law when it's your personal preference. Professional gamers, sports betters, talking heads, number crunchers, all agree that the randomness in BR and managing it is in no way stopping top teams from reliably coming out on top. Like no-one in the industry agrees with you. At all.

[boreal sun]

objectively speaking, you cannot accurately measure something in an uncontrolled environment

it's not an opinion

[past yew]

I mean on a fundamental level, it wouldn't work as a competitive game because it's built on randomness.

Although the idea of risk assessment is legitimate, I think DnD's RNG goes too far.

[cobalt obsidian]

you should reassess the topic alittle. Theres more to it.

[frozen kestrel]

upgrade back pack please

[twin delta]

there are two extra slots on the stash page under your backpack, so extra bag space is planned already

[opaque slate]

see yall next pt my gamers

[boreal sun]

I know there's more to it, but that's my point

the viability of competition in a game is a spectrum based on how 'fair' the game is, with 'fair' meaning how much the game's outcome is determined by player skill above all else

it's a spectrum, and BRs and games with randomly spawning gear, random spread, etc. are all very far down on that spectrum compared to controlled games like fighting games and games like CS which aim to eliminate RNG as much as possible

[cobalt obsidian]

Fellminster already told you that you can set arbitrary thresholds for whats acceptable.

[wicked palm]

can we get a payed beta test server

[lament willow]

I hate to break this to you, but science is literally all about measuring things as accurately as possible in an uncontrolled environment. There is no measurement we have of any thing in the entire world that we can confidently say is 100% accurate. It's probably impossible to say and likely near 0. You seem to have some expectations of video games that are not shared by probably the vast majority (99%+) of video game players, viewers, and developers, yet you are asserting it is an undeniable and indivisible truth, and seem to think i'm arguing against whether this game fits that truth or not. What I am saying is that your certainty about how games must 'perfectly' measure skill or something is not something I or anyone else cares about. That's a you thing. It likely won't be useful to keep discussing things with that belief/expectation with people.

[slim flame]

[boreal sun]

appeal to popular opinion doesn't matter, nor is it an arbitrary standard
a game with more randomness effecting the outcome means that individual skill is not tested or measured as well as a game without that randomness, and that is undeniable objective fact
to push a game with excessive randomness as a competitive game that should reward money is just terrible and goes against the nature of competition itself
obviously I'm in the minority in believing this, because fortnite tournaments have prize pools in the millions, but that doesn't make my criticism of this culture of pushing rng-based games as competitive any less valid

[lament willow]

goes against the nature of competition itself

The nature of competition, the word, the concept, is defined by the people using that word or concept. That's how.. language, works. If you are using a minority definition of a word ( a very minority definition) without indicating that, you are not communicating effectively. This isn't an 'appeal to popularity', this is language, communication, getting your point across. Cause you aren't.

[hasty olive]

The hitch in your argument is stating that all pvp games should value "valid" competition. It's okay for balanced competition to be a fringe subcommunity rather than the main purpose of the game.

Competition is a nice thing that has its merits, but it is not compatible with all other aspects of game design. RNG and progression systems are also meritable things and they make more sense for the vision of Dark and Darker as the devs have expressed it so far.

[boreal sun]

I mean, you did appeal to popularity
and you still haven't given a good counterargument

to clarify, my point was that this game SHOULDN'T be pushed as a competitive game, it has merits aside from that and I don't think it should be a priority because the game fundamentally isn't built for it

it's far too late at night for me anyway so
we'll leave it at that

[jaunty scaffold]

Counter argument to what? That people like to play games for fun and no one cares if it isn’t fair?

[lyric bone]

im sad

[boreal sun]

re-read the conversation instead of responding to something that nobody ever said

[serene flicker]

[Feedback]

1. Need Candy Box likes the gold pocket.
2. More storages (More than x5 )
3. Granularize search filters (Exchange shop).
4. Buff Unused stats.

And.... Thank you for making a good game. I'll wait until April.

[jaunty tree]

people making suggestions regarding extending the playtest are both extremely original and funny, please keep it up

[lament willow]

My counterargument is very simple - you care about one aspect of competition and only that, and are defining ALL of competition by what you care about. When challenged on that, your reply is that it's an objective truth that <thing you care about> is harmed by rng. You're dismissing and marginalizing anyone that isn't you or anyone exactly like you with a nonstandard definition you're pushing as if it's dictionary, which is a dishonest arguing technique and frankly rather awful. People are allowed to enjoy competition with randomness, develop skills at managing randomness, and join tournaments with random elements - that's an element of competition that has existed for thousands of years and you don't get to just blindly call it wrongbad, and decide that it's 'not competition' and 'against competition' based on literally just your own definition that you made up.

[random acorn]

Hey guys, is the server down?

Lol jk

[lyric bone]

God I hope they dont add gear based matchmaking

[tender cave]

Someone needs to suggest a paid beta. I’d gladly pay 40 bucks to just play this game at its current version.

[hasty olive]

I see the argument for gear matchmaking because I don't think noobstomping in a progression-based game should ever be encouraged. At the same time though, this game is better in every other way without gear MM.

I wish there was a happy middle ground. Right now I think it would be a lot better if the zone and movement speed mechanics were reworked, so that a noob can actually run away from a fight that they can't win.

[keen ore]

As long as they do wipes like every 3 months or so it’ll be fine

[hasty olive]

no it won't lol. People play at vastly different paces.

I hope they don't do frequent wipes, or they do them like PoE with a "current" and a "legacy" lobby. I think being able to make slow and steady progress will be huge for this game

[verbal marsh]

See you in April

[lament willow]

in the 1 week playtest, new players were reliably entering lobbies where the final portals were camped by rogues with full purples until the zone closed
I guarantee you new players joining two weeks after launch will not be escaping in their first 5 hours, or even 10 hours. Too many people get their jollies ruining the fun of largely helpless targets.

[hasty olive]

were you the drunk skelebro my buddy shot in the face with a crossbow?

[verbal marsh]

I can rob some of the dreams some of the time, but I can't rob all the dreams all of the time.

[keen ore]

My group started playing 4 days before play test was over we first day took a couple hrs till we could reliably all get out of dungeon but we knew it was a learning curve and understand tarkov ratting so we expected that here as well. It can suck from time to time but that’s the rewarding thrill when you bring beautiful items back and then eventually hit level 20 use your gold to barter with people in the trading post to get better gear hit the mines and get some ores refine them make better armors and eventually become the scum that bullied you at the beginning of the your time playing this game 😂 or from time to time adopt the sad little guy trying to escape from you and drag him around.

It’s a pretty huge learning curve for most if youre not a scummy mordhau archer but for certain types of gamers the reward after all the abuse is what we yearn for 💀

[lament willow]

The playtest has better density of new players than the actual release will, and a lot of players won't know how to rat unless they've played tarkov etc. People on the discord here aren't necessarily representative of the average player either - most of them aren't on the discord or if they are they don't like check it and write in it. Of my 10 friends who tried this game, most of them reported 'playing a few games and getting instantly killed by some invisible guy and then stopping', and that's only gonna get worse over time the game spends available.

[hasty olive]

A steep learning curve is one thing. It's another thing when there is absolutely nothing you can do except die because someone else not only has better weapons, armor and heals than you but also has much higher movement speed than you so you can't run away.

[rugged pilot]

That's legitimately unavoidable though, unless you make low gear players very fast

Sometimes no matter what, you simply lose the round

[verbal marsh]

It is a game that resembles dark souls... just, getgudscrub.

[lament willow]

@rugged pilot i've yet to see you not be in this thread and i've only seen you argue for mixed lobbies and no barb nerfs
what gear are you taking into normal dungeons and how many naked players are you typically killing

[keen ore]

Yeah ok I can agree with that @hasty olive to an extent as I was sadge when I first started 😂 but tbh idk what work around there would be only thing to stop it would be like kit cap dungeons, you can only bring up to certain color for said dungeon type deal.

[rugged pilot]

You read what you want to read, I've been in here FOR barb nerfs also

[potent ledge]

I mean is it totally infeasible to instead have different queues. One that allows all gear and another that won’t allow anything in that isn’t white or grey

[red jewel]

AMD GPU?

[lament willow]

just basic mmr like most games have. kda + gear mmr (mostly to stop people spamming new accounts and trading with themselves to bring full purples into new player dungeon)
crap players get a weaker dungeon to fight in, good players get stronger players to fight. sorta how highroller is meant to work, but not relying on players to self-stream.

[keen ore]

I’d say have a grey to white dungeon queue grey to blue dungeon queue and then an open dungeon queue and just progressively increase the odds of better loot between what queues you choose to play in.

[hasty olive]

So have I. Usually, but not always, it's because I'm aware of them well before they're well aware of me so I can use traps, doors and AI to my advantage.

I'm talking about the players and parties that specifically go noobhunting, so they either camp portals or they rush through the map and roll through everybody before they have a chance to hide or prepare.

[lament willow]

that's one option. k/d mmr is better though, because you can poop on people with like a white felling axe as a barb 20 if you know what you're doing. It's fairer, but likely involving kill/death rate somehow will make it a smoother experience

[potent ledge]

Leaving a starting lobby counts as a death. As long as your willing to spend some time you could jack up your death stats

[rugged pilot]

K/D mmr is a joke because most of the playerbase will be in the top end very quickly

Hunt: Showdown is a solid example of this. Most players are in the top two MMR brackets

[lament willow]

Yep. But that takes time and will thus reduce the numbers of griefers. Like, you want to stack a few different things and some will slip through anyway. New account with perfect whites that they enter/die a bunch on to lower k/d will still slip in even if you did both methods, for example. But it won't be every lobby, y'know? Because people willing to put the effort in for only a smaller comparative advantage will be much less people. People are lazy, even griefers.

[keen ore]

It could work but I dislike the MMR system in that aspect a bit it’s a group battler game and thus everyone has there purpose some people are the main end killers some people are there to just buff and pepper the enemy so the barb will normally have higher kills in the party over the cleric or rogue ya know

[rugged pilot]

There's undoubtedly a switch from 'easy winning' to difficult though, so your nice gearset is torn away after a shift in MMR that you got just from playing well, and that IMO is nonsense

[keen ore]

Jesus I have work in 5 hours and I’m to invested in reading breathing and thinking about anything that is dark and darker 😂

[lament willow]

kills, assists, and deaths is a generally pretty good system. tracks your murder good.

@brisk pilot this game is popular enough and has small enough lobbies that you could easily split the playerbase. most modern mmr systems also collapse categories based on player population. so fewer players = less categories = less fair lobbies (but the speed of lobby creation remains constant). well.. all modern mmr systems, really. only super terrible ones don't.

[rugged pilot]

Never seen Dead By Daylight? Griefers will get to top MMR and throw for 10+ hours to go back to low MMR and grief / troll

[whole pasture]

Hi, chiming in here. Income on escape might be a way to do it, that way you can have high level rats matched up against high level teams as well. better you are at ratting, better opponents you face.
Also the winners of each round would play against the winners of other rounds and so on and so on.

[lament willow]

you really seem to be very upset at the idea of not getting to automatically 'easy win'
that would be rather the point of any mmr system.
to force people to actually try to win

[remote latch]

Pls leave MMR systems out of this game I'm tired of every game needing to be an algorithm nightmare just chuck me into the trenches

[hasty olive]

I don't think it's completely unavoidable. Someone will always come up with a strategy to twink or stomp, sure, but right now it's almost the default experience since you have to spend money to go into High Rollers. There's definitely a middle ground.

We already have invis potions and the ability to completely hide in darkness. I have escaped parties and better-geared players many times by running through the zone. Doors are faster to close than open, so you can often slow down pursuers. The issue is a lot of these existing mechanics are negated by geared players having much faster movement speed and sometimes faster interaction speed, and not all classes can reliably run away without having to deal with the AI.

In my experience, I feel like it's already pretty good. Once you put some time into and start playing slowly you can get off the ground with some sneakiness and a little luck. I think the game needs a few mechanical adjustments, mostly to the zone, portals and possibly move speed, to get rid of some of the frustrating situations without resorting to match making.

[lament willow]

kills, deaths, successful escapes vs deaths, income on escape, could all factor in yeah. income on escape is a great idea actually, because it tracks people who leave full of loot vs those that sneak around and leave with a bangle. a 'stuff you bring in value' vs 'stuff you bring out value' would also stop people suiciding naked to lower their mmr (although if you're tracking kills and assists they'd have to die for many hours to equal out and far fewer people would be willing to do that)

[keen ore]

Tbh we can discuss what they can do to stop high tier rats from stomping in dungeons but even if they don’t do anything I don’t mind. the games go so fast I load into said games so fast to that I just mindlessly jump in basic gear and all and see what I can leave with and make schmoney and giggle to myself manically as I sprint past ratters into portals as a ranger 😂

[whole pasture]

it also fixes the new player issue, they get matched with new players and people who are low scorers. easing the intro to the game.

[lament willow]

I leveled up every character except ranger this game, and the amount of people willing to show mercy to a naked, who even had their mics on to do anything but spam racism, was about 1/50th of the people desperate to get kills at any cost (had a lot of fun leading kill hungry green wearers into a big mess of pve i'd intentionally created in rooms and then trapping them in there with shut doors and throwables). So unfortunately, for every time you were nice to someone, they got murdered and chased with no real chance to fight back like a dozen times minimum.

@whole pasture that would be the idea behind mmr yes. it would also help low scorers who for whatever reason are just bad to actually get to play a bit instead of just being axe fodder.

[ivory mica]

wonder what people think about adding stuff to base kit barb rage, fighter sprint, rogue hide, wizard meditate, and whatever cleric gets prayer maybe,

[next vault]

As a paraplegic with aids, I am grateful to have played D&D

[hasty olive]

This is a huge part of it for me. I don't mind leaving a lot up to the luck of avoiding geared players when the matches are so fast. Between that and the thrill of fighting into a disadvantage for a huge reward (yes I completely agree with you Sam), I don't want any sort of mmr, gear or otherwise. I do think the issue of dedicated noobhunters could be mitigated though.

@whole pasture The Cycle implemented a similar solution and my understanding is that went poorly.

[slim bloom]

I kinda like that fact that you have to choose your playstyle and not have it set based on one ability

[small eagle]

i think a gear score limit would help if u score is over x amount then u cant get in the lower tiers

[vocal ore]

I think this system Is really Good, yall know whats Best way for someone to improve skills, thats to play VS players better than them, they will see cool tricks, skills etc and they Can use them next time, even if they somehow kill skilled players they will get Good loot

[ivory mica]

agreed, the topic mostly came up with the wizards pretty much saying meditate has to be base kit, maybe bound to the R key since its so neccessary and required to run any solo wizard or even duos

[cosmic spindle]

Sorta like a gear mmr instead of a performance based mmr?

[lament willow]

I think it would get a lot worse if the game was out for longer. Seen it go that way with a lot of games. Launch is free for all and fun, but the dedicated noobhunters start growing in % the longer the game is out until for a new player it's a totally toxic experience.

@ivory mica campfires return spells. most good wizards don't run meditate. instacast perk or double spell if you're knowledge stacked

[spring pebble]

I feel like pre lvl 20 and post lvl 20 should be two different queues, let low levels and ungeared players have a slightly nicer time. +1 to having gear score and another +1 to having each class have a base skill like hide and rage ontop of two chosen skills would be actually very nice.

[keen ore]

Yeah I mentioned something similar early grey to white queues then grey to blue queues and then open queues and the different queues give better loot depending on what level you go to ya know.

[small eagle]

yh stops lvl 20s going in semi descent geared and stopping new lvl 1s ect

[rugged pilot]

If you haven't noticed, last time you made an assumption and then formatted an argument against it I didn't bother to reply. and I'll do that next time if you try it again.

The reason I think "easy win" turning to "crushing difficulty" in a shift of MMR is because it will destroy the morale of new players that thought they were finally getting 'good'.. There is no better way to deter them from continuing to play by making them lose their gear, feel stupid and get them killed so easily by people better than them that they learn nothing for the next time.

[vocal ore]

That will work myb if they add talent system, but right now, only difference between lvl 1 and lvl 15 Is 3 perks

[spring pebble]

yeah and 1 and 15 would be in the same queue, but at lvl 20 you get put into the random grab bag of players to fill lobbies

[cosmic spindle]

I mean, getting "Good" at a game isn't even gear based. Knowledge of baseline characters and your abilities. I never felt detered by getting killed instantly, though I will say I figured out real fast Solo Wizard is hard asf lmao.

[lament willow]

'it'll be a terrible instant shift that will crush spirits'. Hm yes. That's how mmr works. Excellent fearmongering.

[keen ore]

That still happened to me like 6 times 😂 then I had to learn how to combine attributes on armor to make certain classes better

[rugged pilot]

K/D based MMR is like that, yes. Because in games with a similar system, you can get many kills in one match and rapidly change your MMR.

One good game -> rapid shift of MMR -> loss of 'gains' from your good game

What would be even worse is if that player was then stuck in harder MMR without any of the gains of getting to that level.

[vocal ore]

The most of my escapes in solo q were with solo wizard 💀

[keen ore]

There could be a second route to all this y’all. Just make a “scav” only queue where you can only jump into the game with the kit your base character is assigned.

[whole pasture]

do you have any details as to what made the system not work?

[lament willow]

That's not how mmr works in any game that hasn't had to push an emergency patch to fix their mmr. But sure. MMR evil bad, goes wrong, mad science! Never works. Got it. (you never answered that question about what you bring into regular lobbies and how many nakeds you kill btw. Just sayin'.)

You're trying to frame the POINT of a mmr system (big gear, good kills, lots of escapes? play with good players) as a negative. If someone gets big gear, good kills, and lots of escapes they should get matched with other people in that same power level. That means they might die! They might lose gear! This is a tarkov style game that's the point. You're not meant to win always and keep gear forever.

[rugged pilot]

That only postpones the problem to the match after your scav run

[spring pebble]

My best guess is once the game comes out with a proper floor one it's gonna be ALOT easier to get kitted, maybe not slathered in purple but even just greens and nice blue weapon would make a difference

[cosmic spindle]

😂 i'm still pre-lvl 5, but I found it a lot easier as Ranger as a "new" player

also a scav queue would be interesting

[valid vine]

Anyonr used the karma system once in this playtest?

[vocal ore]

You need a lot of patience for Mage solo hahahah

[small eagle]

i did

[keen ore]

I’d honestly just run scav only queue forever it sounds kinda fun seeing how tough everyone is without god armors and perfect item attributes.

[verbal marsh]

I think the bigger picture of you two's complaint is that there isn't a third competitive que. Normal is Easy, and High-Roller is a breakfast club of who toward trolling the leaderboards. I think they need an inbetween que geared toward Fame titles that are neither leaderboard or normal. Where experienced players would choose to que rather then high roller or norm.

[rugged pilot]

Oh, this is where I cease any conversation with you. Tarkov brain, this is a tarkov style game, no other extraction games exist but Tarkov. We should make all the features similar to Tarkov, Tarkov, Tarkov

[spring pebble]

Tarkov is a pretty cool game tho

[harsh belfry]

What if there was a Queue that had white or green quality gear restriction but you had to ante up to acces it

[plain onyx]

But Tarkov isn't free to play. I hope D&D goes to a free to play route with microtransactions

[vocal ore]

Not my type ngl

[hasty olive]

I think it's fine for those abilities to be optional, so a noob might use them as a backup but a noobhunter might not be running them for more meta stuff. It actually improves the noob's odds if the escape skills aren't in base kit.

One thing I don't like is that Cleric is pretty much screwed. You're slow, you open doors slowly, you kill AI more slowly than your peers once you're both geared, and you don't get any sort of escape ability besides invis potions. Bind is insignificant when it comes to running away.

@whole pasture no I don't, I would have been more specific if I could have :l I mostly speak secondhand from my roomate, who was REALLY into The Cycle. As in he made data tables for the devs to get them to change the balance, and they did.

[valid vine]

Nah its gonna belike 10-20 usd

[keen ore]

Alright guys love y’all it’s been nice talking about fun ideas for this game but it’s way past the sleep time I set for myself and I need to literally put on full mail and armor on tomorrow morning and I shit you not I mean full armor not just some d&d meme💀

[rugged pilot]

I honestly can see the appeal of that as a queue.

@harsh belfry That is effectively what HR does. People choose not to use it because noobstomping is easier.

@digital torrent Playtest is over mate

[digital torrent]

the game back up yet?

[lament willow]

The classic ad hominem. Man, it's fun to see that human rhetoric hasn't progressed since like 300 bce.

Remember guys, just accuse the other person of having <negative traits> and don't respond to their argument. That cements in people's mind that you're superior and thus, right. Either they argue the accusation and look weak, or they accuse you and come off as only accusing due to being accused. It's a win/win!

[spring pebble]

Ya know how most people think dark and darker is dogshit until they get it? how I feel about Tarkov lol, I bought it and played it solo and never touched it again. Until my coworkers started taking me around and the map started to imprint on my mind. Eventually I learned how to yell poorly pronounced russian swear words over Voip and both my enjoyment and survival rate skyrocketed

[small eagle]

i would also love to see a training area so i can test weapons out and combos ect and have more than 5 sec

[vocal ore]

I know all that i play games my whole life, but im not into gun play

[harsh belfry]

I think solo Queue should have a 20g ante. What’s the argument against this? 3 man queues should be the default free queue.

[digital torrent]

wait when can we play again then?

[wheat gorge]

What are yalls opinion on Solo High Roller?

[rugged pilot]

Other way around, and I don't think its a negative trait. But you clearly enjoy Tarkov, and I've had alot of discussions with people that constantly compare D&D to Tarkov and keep trying to shoehorn its mechanics, thats fine, I just don't want to conversate about Tarkov anymore, simply. No disrespect.

@digital torrent Watch the announcement channel and Ironmace social media Thanks to the nearly 2 million player who joined us during Alpha Playtest #4.
We collected even more data that we will use to improve the game and our support systems. We will announce news regarding the next playtest once we have a chance to digest this data and build a schedule.

[small eagle]

sould deffo be a thing ive watch TTVers in good gear stomp solo map cuz they didnt have any where else to go other than solo in the 3 mans

[whole pasture]

No worries, thanks for replying. It's possible that because it was directly tied to an in game resource it was too easy to game. I think the solution still lies somewhere in this ballpark. just so that everyone keeps shifting up based on average loss over X games or something along those lines, rather than RAW income lost gained. I mean, its potentially viable in the solution I suggested to create a character who gains no income but sits at the bottom just smashing people. which is not ideal either.

[spring pebble]

Very fair and understandable, I also prefer melee over guns (vermintide > darktide)

Also if i could add one thing to this game like a wish from a genie it would be an 18 player PVE horde mode. The darkness could have random entity spawns within it that auto path to the nearest player. As the zone shrinks it brings people closer and spawns more and more mobs. I really like pve

[junior flower]

Is the demo over? How are ppl still streaming it

[lament willow]

I've played tarkov exactly one time. I'm a sword enjoyer playing this game because it has swords. The reason i'm referencing tarkov is it is a popular game that is very similar to this one in structure. Accusing me of being a 'tarkov brain' or whatever and thus my points are just fanboyism and therefore wrong is a classic ad hominem, you're using it to dismiss the argument in a way that seems like you have reason when you don't, and it's a dishonest arguing technique used by those with no real interest in any kind of debate or discussion, just in 'being seen as right'.

[eager wigeon]

Buff Barb

[rugged pilot]

Yes, and I have no idea.

@lament willow Not at all, I just don't enjoy discussing Tarkov anymore, and I refuse to elaborate.

[small eagle]

would u like to add more context to ur statement ? like how or why ?, ive played some barb and bar seems fine just takes some getting used to imo

[verbal marsh]

I thought it should be high roller in first place, why are plebs aloud to free farm easy gear?

[spring pebble]

Please let us into your mind palace

[sick glacier]

I play tarkov this doesnt even seem like it except the extracts all the other basics are diffrent lol

[lament willow]

Right right. Your ad hominem was actually just a personal dislike of an example! Totally a misunderstood and sensitive individual who is refusing to elaborate. I beliebe.

[rugged pilot]

Unfortunately I don't care if you believe me, I am stating the direct truth.

[granite plinth]

LIFE BAR FOR BOSSES WOULD BE NICE

[harsh belfry]

Plebs aren’t “free farming” gear. Most of my experience this playtest was on solo and it taught me about the game MUCH faster then teaming up with randoms and being shot in the back or having our presence announced to everybody else on the map.

[lament willow]

it's a looter with persistent gear, pvp and extracts. tarkov is a well known example of a similar game. they do have differences, but there's not a lot of games where you keep and lose gear and tarkov is by far the best known one. tarkov's also had famous issues with unexpected problems arising from the format, so it's a good source of 'what not to do'

[hasty olive]

dude you are such a vibe killer. Every repeat poster here but you is contributing in a really positive way to the discussion.

[vocal ore]

Yeah that would be cool but they Are still new developing team, and very little team, they Cant implement every aspect we say into Game hahahah

[jaunty scaffold]

Unpopular opinion, but I like what the devs did with Goblin Caves. The troll is hard enough that some degree of cooperation is likely, which lends itself to potential betrayals and player drama. Reminds me of old games like Rune Scape and PSO, where you could come together for things but there’s a good chance they’ll stab you in the back anyway.

[spring pebble]

I'll blow my birthday candles out and put icecubes underneath my pillow I beleive

Also about learning the game, I learned more in a single 10 minute match having conversation with two friendly squads than I did my entire first 4 hours of playing solo

[hasty olive]

I like the Goblin Caves too, I just feel like it's more of a BR with a boss for kitted solos.

[lament willow]

the major issue with the troll is that it is difficult to kill with a melee character but a lot easier for a cleric or ranger (mostly ranger)
the hp could be changed so that it's easier to kill with bad gear, but the things it drops are useful for geared characters so it's clearly aimed at geared characters especially the troll blood
a boss in the goblin caves that's easier but drops worse stuff wouldn't be a bad idea

[restive hedge]

trading system needs som love with quality of life updates such as sorting things by rarity

[vocal ore]

I played with 2 friends, all of us og wow and RPG players (we played almost every mmorpg and RPG tiitle) we were learning things super fast

[remote oxide]

How are others still playing

[verbal marsh]

hit troll over 90 times with base barb axe couldn't solo it 😐

[rugged pilot]

I investigated twitch and it seems to just be people watching clips and commentating

[jaunty scaffold]

Made my first chunk of money in the caves after an extremely geared character tried to finesse someone and a big train of friendlies swarmed him. That gear sold for quite a bit

[remote oxide]

But it kicked me out I want in on the private server lol naw there is people in discord rightnow actually still playing

[eager wigeon]

Clips and or Vods

[spring pebble]

Honestly with my attention span i've always been drawn towards shorter form games. (Trash mobas, gmod, any singleplayer game). The math and stat balancing might come quick to some passionate RPG players but that's just not me. But thanks to 3 random barbarians sitting my a$$ down at a campfire and going one by one what each stat does I got educated lol.

[verbal marsh]

Hopefully they make it so barbarian can just cut his hand off so he can hit him where he will die...

[hasty olive]

I feel like melee is harder in general for PvE? Stats-wise it's clearly meant for kitted players either way. I think the Goblin Caves could work with a low-tier boss or a high-tier boss, but it's probably better for it to be a high-tier boss if it stays solo only

@jaunty scaffold No way that is AWESOME

[remote oxide]

There in other countries it seems tho even tho there playtest should have ended before ours my buddy is sitting in some euro chat and there are playing live rightnow lol

[spring pebble]

It would be cool if kill shots dismembered the part they hit ngl

[vocal ore]

We all play stupid LoL but i didnt touch it during this play test

[exotic iris]

What a fun week DnD is so fun. I can't wait until the game is released. I have my money ready.

[verbal marsh]

just think troll boss should have 2 phase option, if you cheese his hand you can opt fighting him where he has one fist.

[spring pebble]

Everytime you speak it's name or acronym the rifts dark curse prevents you from getting laid for another fortnight

@verbal marsh I agree the Trolls messed up, i dunno what to do about it. Ever look at the troll kill scoreboard for barbarians? the #1 guy has 8 troll kills

[verbal marsh]

it wasnt that difficult with zweihander though I never did it cause I was just trying to use base equip, any phy weapon that could reach his face was usable, axes and shorter chop weapons were basically regenerated. also didnt know there was a leaderboard else i'd have taken that one.

[exotic iris]

I thought the goblin cave was fun even though I play the regular dungeons most of the time.

[plush orchid]

Imo the trade as is is one of my fav parts of the game. Even tho it's annoying to see ppl sell trash (and good loot) for way ovepriced. It still is much more fun this way.

I always prefer "Face to Face" trading because most of the time there's room for haggle etc.

Problem of the trade is that people who are accustomed to Auction House systems they most often lack the want to negotiate or flex. Personally I don't care about getting the maximum value for my items so I just accept if people humbly ask for a lower price or add items to the trade to compensate. That gives me the feel that we both were happy in the end of the trade.

[deep jacinth]

I don't like the goblin caves purely because of pacing. The design of the area is cool and the pve is good. 1v1 fights in goblin caves feel like a joke.

[spring pebble]

gobbie cave is great, when I started that's the map I learned on, I love the maps layout and especially the torch placement. It does feel good to be able to control entire areas of the map using darkness to create ambushes and advantageous situations.

[deep jacinth]

How does that make it different than the forgotten castle wall torches are very strong in the castle too

[spring pebble]

usually in the gobbie cave flicking off one torch can be enough to hide you, while absolutely possible in 3 man queue I find shutting off enough torches to effectively hide makes the room look to threatening to anyone with a couple braincells

I dunno i don't have an essay wrote I just like gobbie torch placement more

[verbal marsh]

eventually players will learn to treat the game more like dark souls.

[deep jacinth]

Idk I think any unlit torch should cause that it immediately draws your attention to it if you directly see the darkness. I see your argument though in the castle you need more time to flick off more torches.

[spring pebble]

More torches to snuff true, plus the gobbie cave is a lot more natural looking with soft turns and random inlets into the wall. I feel like in gobbie I can usually make a hallway look natural enough that it just doesn't register. That and there seems to be more natural darkness in the caves on the main routes you'd expect players to get, gaps in the light that most people don't notice are a little larger then normal

[deep jacinth]

Rogues wet dream being able to hide in plain sight for free

[spring pebble]

I am a disgusting Ambush Barbarian player so like maybe i'm not the playstyle to encourage tho lol

[plush orchid]

They need to add a castle sized cave level for 1-3. Follows the "dungeon crawl" theme

[verbal marsh]

caves were easy for every class; most difficult for wizards.

[gleaming kestrel]

I recently posted a suggestion and now my name and pic doesnt show but its still getting upvotes weird

[deep jacinth]

Wizards solo have resources they have to manage so it's obvious why they can't throw infinite resources at players and pve mobs.

I dont think this game will ever have a significant amount of stealth play unless it loses the casual player base. People don't realize how they can use stealth to their advantage unless playing rogue basically. Unless it's like something as simple as we hear someone let's ambush them as they walk in.

People just walk around like they'd never stealth for any reason if they're in a group.

[icy pewter]

UI NEEDS MAJOR ADJUSMENT IT FEELS DATED INTRODUCE SOME SLIDERS FOR EASE OF ACCESS AND REWORK SOME OF THE INVENTORY STUFF

[spring pebble]

Most of my biggest paydays out there were with stealth strats, the amount of control you can have over a fight with a few unlit torches and a cheeky bear trap is crazy

engaging someone with a nearby dark cover to retreat to is entire controlled by my own actions, and anyone who stops mid fight to pull out a torch I have time to get a free swing on

3 man stealth strats are also alot of fun lol, my best run ever was bear trapping a rando and having my two buddies talk him down. Let him get out and even went and met up with the rest of his party and just did a 6 man. I had the joy of bringing pickpocket in and hijacking their escape portal with every single square full of their stuff 🙂

[wide tartan]

They should definitely make it so that when u pick up loot that u can equip, it goes right on ur body instead of inventory

[tardy sun]

That would be something that should be an optional setting, as equipping things makes you unable to perform other actions, so if you are fighting and happen to pick up something equip-able, it could result in taking damage.

[rough elm]

I think it already does that any accessory/armor if it's empty it automatically equips it for you which sometimes i found actually more annoying

[tardy sun]

I'm 99.9% sure that the UI is done to look like diablo. at least the inventory is. And I would hope they dont change that. It is one thing that drew me to the game; I saw a screenshot and noticed it was heavily diablo inspired

[vocal ore]

They Said that they wanted to Make a Game old school RPG

[wide tartan]

@tardy sunthats a good point. But its sorta annoying if you wanted to equip something that could help you and you have to drop inventory to make room. I feel like that would kill you quicker

[earnest pine]

Diablo sucks

[icy pewter]

can be old school with a modern twist I mean I feel like people spend more time in their stash/merchant than in the actual game

[pulsar pebble]

Dam cant edit my suggestion so ill put it here. Add least two more classes before the game is released! A sword mage class would be sick. Maybe make it elemental based and have certain enemies be more weak to a certain element. Oh and of course give each magical weapon enchantment should have some sort of debuff. For example a slight slowness debuff when using a blade that has a Frigid blade enchantment on it. Also make the effected weapon look sick! Like you already do with ignite for the wizard class. Also perhaps give this class a different way to regenerate spells rather then meditate. Something more unique like a special ability that allows them to siphon magic from enemies they defeat with their sword or magical invisible nodes around the map or some other unique way.

[vocal ore]

You Can regenerate using camp fire

[median bison]

Make Barbarians have horned helmets instead of having similar helmets to fighters. This makes Barbarian looks scarier

[vocal ore]

Broo my suggestion Got so Many negatives hahahah

[pulsar pebble]

Ya but also something for the sword mage class would be good even if its not as powerful as meditate. I see why cleric shouldn't have a ability like meditate but I would presume that a sword mage spells would be as good as wizard if not slightly worse so they need a regenerate mechanic

[true plank]

A tournament mode would be cool! Like a daily event, last player remaining wins a prize.

[vocal ore]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
I think i Said some Good og classes idk why it Is so negative
Edit: i get it now mostly Girls rated negative hahhaah

[true plank]

I think it is because you gave 3 suggestions in 1. Kind of confusing.

[vocal ore]

I couldnt wait 12h to post all 3
But its okay i know that Girls cant do pvp kekw

[true plank]

The problem is that people might agree with 1 suggestion, but disagree with the others. But they cant choose which part they like. So they will downvote.

[proud veldt]

thanks for the support on my suggestion

[vocal ore]

Yeah i know but there Is neutral reaction, and i gave all og things like Raid and arena Is must in this kind of Game, and classes would be pretty cool i think

[tardy sun]

they've said they want to make the D&D classes. That's why we are getting bard, and druid. Presumably we will also get monk (martial artist) eventually. And maybe sorcerer and paladin but those overlap with existing classes enough that I think they'd choose to make other classes.

[twin delta]

paladin and sorcerer have been confirmed as of the previous playtest to the latest one

[vocal ore]

Sorcerer Is almost same as Mage and paladin Is cleric ngl, i gave some darker classes that would be cool

Imagine Necromancer spawning skeletons or Warlock his demonic pet and healing with Dark spells, Reaper with his scythe dealing aoe dmg

[true plank]

@west mirage that already exists. Just a plain left click will sell it.

[west mirage]

But only when you hit the sell tab right?

[rugged pilot]

yes

[true plank]

Yes, so you mean to sell it straight from inventory or stash without going to the traders?

[tired rover]

U click to move item to merchant window

[west mirage]

I don’t mind going to the traders but if you could just hot key to sell as soon as you’re on a merchant tab I think it’d be sick

[rugged pilot]

Have you actually played DND ? Paladin is not Cleric, Mage is not Sorcerer.

[west mirage]

The current system can stay but I think a hot key would be a pretty easy addition. In my experience I go to a merchant to sell before I buy anything. Maybe it can be a setting to just have sell as the default tab?

[rugged pilot]

I reckon if you double click a collector item after clicking on collector it should recognise you want to sell and open the sell tab automatically, tbh. OR just a SELL ALL to collector

A little icon next to the collectors portait after clicking him, maybe a hand with gold in it etc - Would be very helpful to just remove the junk that currently, has no use whatsoever. If it does end up having use, it will be hard to missclick a button that is out of the way.

[west mirage]

Yup, whatever can make selling more efficient. I wouldn’t cry if nothing changed it would just be nice. I go in with default stuff and sell whatever I come back with @rugged pilot

[rugged pilot]

Similar honestly

Quests will be very fun if you can build up reputation with merchants. Excited to see how they function

[twilit path]

Slightly bigger Dungeon, 5 player mode, harder mobs with mini boss's in set rooms, better loot.

[bright pecan]

I feel like collector should automatically open on sell window, its not like they intend on him selling anything

[quiet plank]

templates for perks and spells

[vocal ore]

I did play for 30h and i played a lot of RPG games, but paladin have same things as this cleric, Good armor, heals, shields, revive, blund weapons, and i only sad sorcerer in Lost Ark but that was Mage for LA

[twin delta]

reputation build on merchants will likely lead to better deals on items, more inventory visible each visit, and likely buying items from you at a higher rate. so you won't even need to go to the trade market in order to get a good return on that blue you picked up in the dungeon

[rugged pilot]

they might, I could honestly see him being the "jeweler" people ask for

He takes all the gold and shitty gems you find and makes actual necklace and rings in return

[twin delta]

yo what if... what if the collector holds your forever box items? you can buy stuff that you died with that wasn't looted off your corpse. maybe if durability is brought in then they're damaged a bit as well, but i feel repair is gonna be how you improve/upgrade items and equipment and less durability focused.

alternatively, yeah the collector could do a thing where you sell him gems and broken jewelry and he'll have the fixed versions of it show up in inventory

[rugged pilot]

I'm not a fan of the second chance loot mechanics personally.

[twin delta]

i'm only into it with a bunch of conditions

[west mirage]

A merchant that spawns in the dungeon randomly for a set amount of time that will take gold or whatever valuables at their exchange rate. Items the merchant would have would vary and could very well be of no use to you BUT are blue tier+ and cheaper than buying them in the lobby. If they are attacked in any way, they become a mini boss that is difficult to kill but will disappear at the end of their timer HOWEVER if you do manage to kill it before the timer is up it drops one of the items it was selling. I think it could create interesting scenarios. Some will seek it out, some will camp it, and some will third party.

[rugged pilot]

I like a merchant in the dungeon idea, I dunno about the rest of all this though

A little dude sitting in a secret passage with a cloth on the ground that sells things (or barters for collector items), like healing or throwables would be very, very fun to encounter.

[twin delta]

it'd have to be a static merchant i feel, like the goblin cave. maybe if it's not static it's like an alternative hell portal. picnic merchant who sells lanterns, lockpicks, etc would solve a few of the misplaced lockpick spawns in the dungeon actually.

[west mirage]

But that’s the thing, it would be entirely up to you on whether you seek it out or not

[cunning palm]

id just like bigger hitboxes on the items like rings so i can pick them up

[rugged pilot]

Like the goblin cave? are you telling me there is a merchant in there I missed on playtest?

[twin delta]

sorry spaced out what i meant. static exit like the goblin cave.

[rugged pilot]

Yes, a half-way merchant or something before going into hell would be wonderful. Give players like 60 seconds to prepare and browse his limited inventory.

[twin delta]

could be a network of black market vendors in the tombs actually. lots of secret passageways and alternate paths that just don't have anything to 'em. could fill up some of the empty player spawn rooms as well.

[west mirage]

I can see static with random spawns. I like the idea of it attacking though because why not? I think a random but timed occurrence like a merchant would be game changing. Like, it just so happens to pop up when you need it. I like the idea of it always having some type of heal and a lock pick since they’re so few and far between

[cobalt pier]

@everyone we should rally to put the game back up but with the characters wiped and the characters reset every mounth

[rugged pilot]

Anybody ever played Spelunky? This is giving me blackmarket kinda vibes where you have to do a lot of "messing around" with conditions to unlock the shop area where you can find all sorts of doodads and items for sale.

@cobalt pier No we shouldn't, I respect the devs choice to digest their data and develop the game.

[tardy sun]

I suppose the concern about paladin is that, if based closely on d&d pally, would have access to all the plate armor, shields, and swords, as well as healing magic and some other magic (depends on what edition of d&d they are drawing from). I just foresee people will think it is unbalanced since the cleric is already the subject of concern.

[west mirage]

I feel like that would be too difficult to pull off. Especially because people would camp them. But maybe that’s a risk/reward thing that you as a player would have to determine

[twin delta]

you say that but even when people are aware of the static exit in goblin caves, the people who camp it have to bail when the circle doesn't cover it. (unless you're a ranger, who can live through most of the round in the swarm)

[cobalt pier]

U make no sense breeze they would just keep the servers running and that's all no updates

They can do updates monthly or something it's just a good game to let me and others play for a week and to bring it down now I'm bored af and can't play anything else

[gritty mortar]

Buff wizard spells, and add more variability to perks in general

[rugged pilot]

not for a while, they legitimately just finished nerfing Wizard

[twin delta]

wanna point out that the only difference between paladin and current cleric would be access to fighter proficiencies. however, early iterations of paladin had no shield and would specialize in 2handed weapons for early thematic purposes. their god is their protector and all that. given how cleric is heavily based off of the friar priest the paladin is likely a crusader, so i also feel they'd be going 2hander focused with spell options, or spell-like ability options similar to cleric's smite and prayer.

[gritty mortar]

They just some nerfed spell count amounts, I’m talking about the abysmal damage fireball does and the other smaller spells that never see play

[west mirage]

I didn’t run into much camping with the exit. I think the random spawn is in the spirit of the game. You’d get a similar excitement from an exit portal popping up in front of you. Like “oh snap the merchant spawned on me 😎” but there’s be a notification just like the exit portal so people are enticed to seek it out

[rugged pilot]

Abysmal damage? You can hit for 60+ damage mate

Without gear

[dusk kelp]

Please, public stats of how many times the dog was pet...🐶

[twin delta]

most of the day i spent in goblin caves was swarm camping near the static exit and whatever shrine was healing that round. only need to use rations and a single grey campfire if you got the shrine secured. otherwise it'll be three basic pots in addition. if the circle is the next room over from the exit you don't even need the campfire. lots of good chests on the way, a couple of goblin mages who drop decent loot rolls, three shrines nearby, and clear sightlines for a ranger to fire down if someone tries sneaking to it near the end.

[rugged pilot]

If I'm not mistaken there is always a health shrine opposite the static stairs

[west mirage]

Wtf that’s just boring lmao. If that’s how people wanna play that’s on them I guess. I just wanna death sprint around and risk it all

[twin delta]

yes, but it's not always healing. there's another to the north and a third to the south so you have a real high chance of one of them to be healing. if you get two on healing you save yourself the camp too. also this is something yah do when stalking player hunters. they don't want to risk the swarm, and you're more capable of surviving out there than they are if they try to chase you down... and step on a bear trap

[rugged pilot]

Its fun to play with the static exit though, when I knew it existed its what I tried out for a while aswell

I have never seen it not be healing, and I got alot of time in Goblin Caves using the static as my last resort

That looked like I was calling you a liar, its not. I think I was just very lucky.

[twin delta]

caught a barb out in the swarm and killed a fighter who was teaming with him before downing the barb who was trying to make it back to the circle.

as an aside, 20 or so runs in caves where i was near the exit and the shrine was protection twice. it's rare to see it not be healing and i think it's because the mage is there. no worries on the callout. also the shrine to the north has a similar rate of being speed instead of healing.

[west mirage]

I’m just baffled that people camp it. Maybe they’ll increase damage on the swarm? I think if the damage increased the longer you’re exposed to it might dissuade the camping.

[rugged pilot]

Just reading that, does the Swarm count as magical or physical damage?

Does it have its own type?

[twin delta]

it counts as a status, so it ignores both. comes up like a DoT icon like bleed and poison. also something to note: you don't need to up the damage on swarm to prevent camping in it. camping in the swarm has a few major drawbacks for the benefit of not being under threat by players: it drains your recovery resources, it hampers your vision real bad, and you're guaranteed to not get any exit portals nearby you because those spawn within the circle. static portal camping is only valid because it's static, and even then you can't camp it until you clear out at least three goblins. usually in the swarm.

when i was doing resource test runs on those 20+ rounds in the caves, it was like 75 gold investment on a full resource restock, ignoring bear traps and bandages. just the campfire, enough healing pots to survive if you can't find a healing shrine or if you took damage from a goblin attack, and at least one trap to cover whichever hallway you're not sitting in. the return is around 90g but if you get lucky you can come out with 250g or more if you stalk player hunters or pick a locked chest. (then sell the greens/blues on trade)

[west mirage]

75g investment for a 15g return is really high risk but maybe an option for players that are more pacifist or opportunist. I’ll just let the homies that want to run that strat do their thing

[twin delta]

this is also stipulated by being ranger with rations skill, so you don't have either multishot or burst shot on hand to make killing the player hunters easy. basically gotta wait for their victims to land a hit or two before you go in for the ambush.

i'm also definitely more up for being friendly or pacifist than hostile in this game. it's just a lot more fun to hang out with strangers and get funny moments like having a conversation and someone does the dark souls mistake of dropping their mouse/controller and it takes a swing on another person, which kills them. followed by the "OH NO I'M SO SORRY" while everyone else is laughing their sides off

[ornate grail]

antidote

[twin delta]

yes, or antitoxin that you can use to resist poison pre-emptively as well if you know you'll have to run through a toxic cloud.

[vocal ore]

I played with friend and one guy wanted to be friendly with us dungeon and i hadnt see this, i killed skeleton and was like, look enemy player, killed him and friend was like, he wanted to be friendly, i was like, thats so sad bro but look at his loot

[twin delta]

you might've killed me then. that was like 90% of my interactions with a duo in the tombs. if you killed a ranger or cleric in west coast server that was likely me. 🤣

[tardy sun]

The paladin was already in an earlier version of the game? Or they've talked about it?

[whole venture]

is the game stil avaliable?

[twin delta]

paladin was confirmed to be on the list for release. bard, sorcerer, then paladin are priority in that order 'cause they want to fill particular niches missing from the teamcomps available.

game is gone friend

[vocal ore]

That was on EU and he was Rogue, i remember one squad taken me in while i was solo playing in squad dungeon, Good guys they even let me go first in portal, only Berserkers Are Never friendly

[twin delta]

i've met about 300 barbarians and out of all of them... 5 were friendly. 20 of the remainder would do the friendly dance, then get close and go for the kill. about a 100 wouldn't stop to even recognize what i was doing or saying and just went straight for the attempt to kill. the rest either tried to ambush or waited for mobs to agro before hurtling in. at least that's what the post-it notes tally.

[vocal ore]

I still think that Necromancer, Warlock and Reaper would be greater new classes, mainly reason cause i hate paladins cause of wow, sorcerer Is simular to Mage but have more aoe spells bard Is okay

[soft kiln]

do we need a paladin class tho, i think cleric is pretty fine if you play it like a front line tank/healer etc
i use the "paladin" playstyle for my cleric and it works just fine

[rocky field]

yea, armour weight perk alone would enable full plate cleric and that's very close to paladin, necro is a good idea but sounds quite hard to develop / balance properly

[twin delta]

if you're not familiar, dark and darker is derived mostly from dungeons and dragons, specifically 3.0/3.5 edition for the most part. paladins in D&D are drastically different in play and behavior than WoW, and sorcerer is a unique form of mage than wizard. also necromancer, warlock, and reaper are actually just subclasses to one another in later editions of D&D, pathfinder, etc.

[vocal ore]

Thats what i Said, paladins Are almost same cause paladin Is combination of warrior and priest
For cozy:oh i didnt knew that i mainly played wow, warcraft, guild wars, diablo, torch light etc

[granite plinth]

Something that needs to be more obvious is the visual distinction between the different heal potions and bandages cuz they look nearly identical until you read the description. I kept trying to stack them thinking they were the same

[twin delta]

i mentioned it before but it bares repeating here: given how they designed cleric to be a friar priest, paladin will likely be a crusader archetype who behaves more like a divine spell version of barbarian. 2handed weapons like the war maul, zweihander, halberd, etc, some spells but none as strong as cleric, and good armor similar to a fighter. however they'd swap out the barbarians' berzerker traits for their choice of offensive/defensive abilities, and likely would have the skill or perk that lets them shrug off either all harmful effects or a fatal wound in a short window of time. (this was how paladin was in AD&D, and cleric plays like the AD&D cleric)

[rocky field]

just adding a roman numeral I II and III would do it, I think there's 3-4 tiers?

[static hazel]

Hm this suggestion bot isn't too great. I used the help command, apparently that was the wrong command and now I have a 60 minute CD.

[soft kiln]

THAT would be a fun class id play for sure
4 @rocky field grey, white, green, blue

[south cliff]

Imho I would not say 3.0/3.5. Maybe older editions, following the current revamping of old school rpgs, like DCC or OSE

[vocal ore]

Yeah i get it now i tryed asking but players keep attacking me cause i Said paladins and clerics Are the same, no one gave explanation, ty dude

[twin delta]

a lil strip of binding that wraps around the neck of the bottle or center of the bandage that is color coded to its rarity would work.

[granite plinth]

Yeah cuz other items have it but they don't and it gets incredibly confusing

[rocky field]

actually yea, this would make more sense considering it's how everything in the game is sorted

[vocal ore]

But still i Want my Dark Mage and Dark warrior

[soft kiln]

i want scythes in the game :) and a class around them
ok? xd did anyone ask

@vocal ore yeahh i like reaper, dont think we need necro tho tbf,

[iron fractal]

theres been a lot of people wanting a lot of different silly things in this discord way before you, you're not unique.

[twin delta]

i'm going with it mostly being 3.0 because zombies had a stench cloud attack, mummies would lurk underground and spring up to ambush victims, goblins carried bucklers and had naturally poisonous weapons, goblin mages would deny healing, you could access shrines from deities to get buffs, fighter's second wind first showed up in 3.0 as a class feature, ranger was an outdoorsman who was originally intended to survive in the inhospitable environments and also didn't exist in earlier editions, rogue was either full stealth or full murderhobo, wizards became dicks in 3.0, clerics had access to turn undead as a prayer, barbarians were introduced in 3.0 and have the same ability to 1-shot any other class if they could get into melee, the list goes on

[south cliff]

I'm not saying that Dark and Darker got me addicted, but...
... well
...
What are the most similar games you know? I heard about Tarkov, but what I like of DaD is the high presence of melee.

[vocal ore]

I Said that too, that would be Reaper or Necromancer

[twin delta]

tarkov is a slog compared to... lol, DaD. that's good. but yeah, tarkov is a good example of if ironmace took the game in the wrong direction, with how bad the camping, trading, exploring, and remainder of the gameplay loop is. i played like a rat for more than half the demo of DaD and had more fun doing that than anything i've done in tarkov. in tarkov you run into the barbarian 1hko issue but it's because someone shot you with a gun from 100m away and they couldn't even see you. also the bots are a big problem. hackers too.

[vocal ore]

I Said this earlyer but imagine mmorpg with his mechanics and gameplay in open world

[soft kiln]

i wouldnt compare the games, the only thing similar is really the inventory system.. they're vastly different and ones a lot more difficult.
tarkov is high risk high reward in terms of everything xd, the highs of killing a group or a super geared player is soooo satisfying but you will end up dying to those players a lot more and lose sooo much

[south cliff]

Are You suggesting that I'm a blatant ignorant and that I wrote that without having ever played games of D&D before the 3.0 edition and that I just wanted to create a way for talking about Dungeon Crawl Classic a lot of other different rpgs??

Damn, you got me.

[twin delta]

i honestly don't have a good suggested game to play that DaD is similar to, beyond some vr games like boneworks

also it's happening a lot where people who haven't touched earlier versions of D&D don't understand why ironmace made a lot of their decisions. so apologies for the assumption.

[vocal ore]

I mean wow Is okay

[twin delta]

my apologies but world of warcraft is not okay. literally ruined the concept of the role triangle and the ability for any rpg releasing for 20 years after its release to have any semblance of fresh air because it has to be like wow

wow is the reason why people think support role = HEAL ONLY

gotta head to bed. was nice discussing

[south cliff]

The sad thing is that yesterday I felt I was improving my skill. And now I have to wait a lot to play again.

Say what you want but damn, maybe barbs are op and wizard nerfed, but killing a wizard with a barb is tremendously satisfying.

The +100 magic defense perk is highly situational, but when it works, you love it.

[finite raptor]

I guess I've satisfied a lot of barbs this playtest then candyman

[vocal ore]

You take that perk And rogue would be like, Hello there

[finite raptor]

Got crouched on by so many barbs as a solo wizard. Literally yesterday I casted haste and ran past 2 barbs but they caught up with me. I feel like there is a special hate between barbs and wizards

[south cliff]

I'm sorry, but don't worry, I died so many times in so many stupid ways killed by any class that you can say you where a little vindicated

[south cliff]

Could the "primordiality" of this rivalry when we play a game be a proof that magic indeed exists even in our world?

[finite raptor]

@south cliff poetic

[south cliff]

I'm not too ashamed or angry when a rogue or a ranger kills me. Imho especially rogues incarnate the soul of this game more of any other class.

[dull dagger]

...What? The bracket populations are displayed in-game and it clearly shows that 20% or fewer players are in the top two brackets.

[vocal ore]

I think Rogue Is on the weaker side early Game cause it Got super low HP and dmg

[finite raptor]

early wizard with ignite and invis+haste is a better rogue than rogue. I rekt many rogues with that. Just need to buy a dagger and crystal ball for 20 gold

[vocal ore]

True 🥶

[finite raptor]

yeah 😦 Rogues are not great imo, but there were some that beat me by just moving faster and dodging my stabs though. And by moving I mean also spamming crouch while attacking

[toxic grail]

how do i do the suggestion correctly yesterday when i made one the bot just insta deleted my msg and did nothing. im pretty sure i did it correctly? maybe it auto detected a repeat suggestion?

[scenic veldt]

The suggestion is deleted. And then it appears in the #d-and-d-suggestions channel. This is working as it should.

[ruby dagger]

slowmode of 6 hours, I've just failed to send the suggestion, gotta wait 6 hours to retry 🤷‍♂️

[rugged pilot]

In HR

[plucky blade]

having more achievements that unlock while you play per exemple: wins-kills would be very fun, having some kind of Very Sick Skin when you have 25-50-100-500-1000escapes .. 100escape in highrollers just to give examples would hype people to play alot so they can unlock things that are hard to do,/ would keep the motivation to play when Full Gear-InventoryFull

[waxen needle]

There needs to be some kind of auction house or auction system. Where I can list my item and people can search and find it. It is crazy that the better I got at the game the more and more time I spent outside the dungeon because getting a gear set is so nearly impossible. It should not take any one over and hour to find the gear they want to potentially lose it in the next raid. Having to siphon through overprice items and traders who deny trades and continue to post their items higher as a way to price the item is rediculous. This game needs an auction system for the love of everything dark and darker.

[plucky blade]

what about the noobs will not be capable to sell their shitty items - buying shitty items /

[glacial sphinx]

I think auction houses are bad for how good loot will feel. It happened in Diablo 3 as well. The reason is because you'll be able to see the very best items dropped from among a million players and yours will look trash in comparison. It'll also mean playing the auction house becomes the best way to earn money

[mortal carbon]

#d-and-d-suggestions message go vote for this, its a suggestion for a goblin cave high-roller

[glacial sphinx]

Merchants should just offer a few more greens so you can cobble together a semi decent set rather quickly for a bit more gold, or slightly cheaper if you trade with other players. But I think ideally you would trade with players for blues and epics+

[plucky blade]

exactly, when you know which item are the best, the trading will be boring.

[mint stone]

Naaah making an action house will ruin the fundaments of the game itself, making most people only want the Best of the Best, leaving the other items unsellable. If u want the "perfect set" then take ur time finding the items when they are listed.