suggestion-discussion

[cerulean pollen]

do you play wizard?

[brittle patrol]

I feel like wizard will be very hard to balance because it either does enough where the spell ammount/ med time is worth it or it is not

[boreal sun]

let's put it like this

more options will always be stronger, and so casters are always hard to balance

[cerulean pollen]

wizard is frustrating in pvp because thats its primary strength, it can do well in pve but id much rather pve as a cleric or barb

pveing as a wizard without dagger or ignite is not fun

[lusty wren]

Wizard is in a fine state if you just make invis and haste not stack. Problems solved.

[lusty wren]

Classes need downsides

[boreal sun]

if the options are even mediocre, then they'll still be strong just because they have that versatility and utility
you'd need to severely limit the options to balance them against someone who does not have the options at all

[spice pawn]

I just ignite/haste the rogue/barb in the party and occasionally crossbow headshot a mob if someone whiffed

[boreal sun]

but then the options become unfun to use

[cerulean pollen]

wizard has downsides, im telling you its just the dagger and ignite

[brittle patrol]

good suggestion, only people who are downvoting are wiz mains who dont want to not be broken

[cerulean pollen]

take that away and over half of wizard op complaints dissapear

[carmine current]

i played constantly with wizard in my 3 man. i can say with 100% certainty is was beyond broken. 1st a wizard never needs to use a spell other then ignite to easily clear pve trash mobs. its got access to the best stealth and movement, with the easiest projectile in the game to land being fireball

[karmic zenith]

I'm just curious, but do you guys think fighter needs a buff or a nerf or remain as is?

[lusty wren]

They have very few downsides with invis and haste stacking

[granite plinth]

Nothing

[lusty wren]

I think its fine tbh.

[brittle patrol]

buff

[lucid root]

If you're quick with target switching you can kill two mobs per mm once your damage gets high enough, then pve doesn't feel so slow

[brittle patrol]

i dont even play fighter, but ive never once in over 30 hours been scared of a fighter. its a free kill imo

[spice pawn]

ignite just needs tuning. even when I got ignite shanked by wiz, it usually felt fair. even tanked out in gear, they still pop like balloons

[carmine current]

yeah but what about fire balls and magic missiles that still can 1 shot you with good gear on

[boreal sun]

not as tanky/damaging as barb, but with the ability to block/use crossbows/bows as well as sprint

it's hard to say if the tradeoff is worth

[cerulean pollen]

magic missile is not one shotting anyone, not to mention you needing to stand still while it casts

[boreal sun]

fighter feels weaker

[cerulean pollen]

if you die to MM, you definitely got out positioned

[spice pawn]

a good fighter with any form of cleric/wiz support is very effective

[cerulean pollen]

fireball is only strong in CQC ironically, anything further than throwing knife range and its easy to avoid

[boreal sun]

but wouldn't a barb in the same position perform better?

that's the issue with fighter I think

[spice pawn]

even more so if they know when to pick and choose playing shield tank (usually only teamed with rangers / wiz)

[lusty wren]

Barb outperforms fighters when supported, but when not supported IMO fighter is better

[brittle patrol]

depends what weps the barb is using

[lusty wren]

not supported barb is pretty easy to counter IMO

[boreal sun]

I think fighter is a more versatile solo class, but if the game is balanced around teams then that doesn't matter

[spice pawn]

barb might be strongest when he's got double support (cleric + wiz, or even double-cleric)

[brittle patrol]

2x axes you win easily a sword or anything that other than the felling axe barb loses imo

[cerulean pollen]

cleric might be most perfectly balanced, with only bind needing a buff

really healthy class with build variety

[spice pawn]

it's really just those first few extra points into AGI/run speed that largely eliminates his core weakness

[boreal sun]

my only issue with barb is that the two-handed options feel really, really bad to use

[cerulean pollen]

healer, fighter-healer, full on brawler, 2h paladin holy menace, lots of fun to be had

[carmine current]

9 pieces of gear that can roll 6 additional magic damage, 6 true magic damage, % increased magic damage, and will or all stats (which gives % increased magic damage). base magic missile is 10 with 12 shots. guess what 9x(6+6)=108+10=118 meaning with just the flat damage you could get 118 damage per shot on magic missile. same goes for fireball, chain lightning, ignite and any other damage spell

[lusty wren]

If you take a full volley of MM you got outplayed

[spice pawn]

yea just go all-or-nothing felling axe. either you 2-shot em (or 1 if squishy), or you whiff and watch yourself rip

[agile condor]

Remain or buff

[cerulean pollen]

yeah and you can get two shot by a barb when he's naked, max gear scenarios arent a good example case, and they're very slow. you shouldnt just be measuring raw dmg numbers

[karmic zenith]

I don't want to be biased or anything, but even though I am a fighter mhm, I believe that the fighter class needs a buff because barbarians make better primary tanks and front-liner characters, while rangers make better pokers, so that puts fighter into a futile middle ground.

[cerulean pollen]

its easy to avoid them in anything but point blank

[boreal sun]

I just go axe specialist + savage (no chestpiece) + 1-handed axe so I'm fast and I still kill in 1-2 shots

higher dps because of swing speed, easier to headshot, and I can keep up with quicker classes

two-handed just doesn't compare

[agile condor]

They're in the middle and really not a great jack-of-all-trades either

[brittle patrol]

if you hit a wall or crouch and hit the floor if you know you are going to miss it resets your swing timer.

[karmic zenith]

yea

[brittle patrol]

i also found this the best

[lusty wren]

Barb has higher health but if it wants to be effective it takes perks that make it a full DPS class. Not a tank at all. Fighter can outperform it as a tank in all facets imo I mained fighter and cleric

[carmine current]

zero gear barb did less then 80 damage on a headshot to dummy. so no a base kit barb never oneshots anything unless they were already missing hp. also you can channel a full magic missile in the time it takes a barb to do 2 attacks

[cerulean pollen]

I love the 2h weapons. its hilarious accidentally killing your team mates off screen because warhammers arc is so huge

[boreal sun]

I think fighter's main "idea" is that they can swap between ranged poking with bows/crossbows and melee combat, but they don't excel at either

wider utility at the cost of specialized effectiveness

[boreal sun]

barb is incredibly tanky with support

[spice pawn]

Don't forget what the devs said in a recent Q&A -- they're not overly concerned with class balance right now (since several major gameplay mechanics/systems haven't even been implemented yet).

Too much effort spent on optimizing the classes right now will be a waste (since their relative performance is definitely going to change once the newer game mechanics have been fully implemented)

[boreal sun]

and if you have the 10% hp recover on kill

[cerulean pollen]

I said two shot and thats when they're naked. and stop comparing just raw dmg, mm has a cast time, projectile travel time, weak homing, and requires the wizard to be holding still

[lusty wren]

We are talking about their base kits, Fighter gets even tankier with 2 supports.

[wintry forge]

@boreal sun I think weight is probably what will affect speed. I don't think there will be overlap.

[cerulean pollen]

if you die to MM in any context, im sorry, thats on you

[karmic zenith]

Yeah, but most of the times I try to be tanky, I get shot down easily, even with full epic armor.

[spice pawn]

thank you for that tip. I thoroughly enjoyed PvE barb smasher this last playtest

[boreal sun]

do you think they'll remove movement penalties on armor/weapons?

[lusty wren]

So does a barb though but faster because they have less resistances.

This sounds more like a problem with defensive gear

then barb vs fighter

[cerulean pollen]

I main wizard and actually prefer running slow, lightning strike or ice bolt instead of MM a lot of the time because its annoying trying to play around sometimes

[spice pawn]

magic missile is almost a wasted spell slot in 3-mans if you're not organized over VoIP

[karmic zenith]

It's true that fighter is suppose to be the middle class/Jack of all trades, but sometimes it feels like you can't even utilize that aspect of the class, IMO.

[cerulean pollen]

MM's strength lies in pre-planning and macro movement, if your target is worse at that than you are, its strong

[brittle patrol]

i mained rogue but tried barb for about 3 hours and got ok at it. felling axe is probably the best but the range made me want to /wrists 2x axe with the perk you stand a great chance against teams and with a cleric or wiz you just hold both mouse buttons and you never stop swinging and 2 shot anythnig with out plate gear

[boreal sun]

movement speed is so important that it feels like wearing "tanky" armor is just not worth it

you're too easy to outspace/whiff punish and take more damage because of it

[cerulean pollen]

100%. zap even better in 3 mans most of the time

[spice pawn]

zap also had the added value of being perfect anti-air PvE

[boreal sun]

plus you're wizard/ranger fodder if you've got plate armor

movespeed is king

[lusty wren]

and fighters get a move speed buff 😄

[cerulean pollen]

zap, ice bolt for safely operating in CQC, fireball, and haste / lightning strike usually for me

[karmic zenith]

yeah, but with barb you get complemented with DPS tho.

[cerulean pollen]

ice bolt seriously slept on CQC for keeping your teammates alive and not accidentally cleaving them

[lusty wren]

Yes because barb is a DPS not a tank. They cant tank for shit their resistances are garbage

[boreal sun]

sprint is good, but it's hard to say whether you'd rather just have fast movespeed all the time and take a more powerful ability

and if you're so slow that sprint still doesn't let you catch up with rangers, then it's not very useful

[spice pawn]

in teams, I'd extensively trio-buff frontline party with Ignite / Haste / Invis, then Fireball rush if the moment was right. Otherwise I'd have MM for solo

[carmine current]

it shouldnt even have homing to begin with imo. 2nd how do you honestly think you should compare things other then by looking at the damage output. first and formost having travel time means nothing when you are playing against classes that have to run into you. the cast of a single magic missile with a base kit can kill any class base kit with a full channel hit. guess what though unless your terrible at the game you could easily just channel until a zero gear barb walks up to you, then at point blank range kill them with all the magic missile shots. honestly its like you havent seen a single video on it or player attempt it. wizards do it all the time, just sit there wait for the melee class to gap close, then kill them at point blank

[lusty wren]

I caught rangers with the buff in full plate regularly

[wintry forge]

I think the weight will cause the movement penalties.

[boreal sun]

I wonder if sprint just sets your movespeed to a flat value

I wish the numbers were easier to access in this game

iirc the stats menu just didn't display movespeed at all

[lusty wren]

TBH i am not sure how it works. But as a person who mained fighter I had no problem chasing shit like rangers down with the sprint active.

[boreal sun]

it always said 100%

[carmine current]

it doesnt it was about a 15% increased or about the same as barbs move speed increase. you could easily see the stats if you activated it and walked forward with the menu showing stats up

[cerulean pollen]

travel time literally means everything in a game where line of sight is so abundant it can frequently get you killed for misusing it. yeah, a single channel can kill somebody, if they're hit by all of them and the wizard stands there completely still and vulnerable. if you try to point blank MM against any melee class, you will die in the time it takes to get them to half

point blank casting MM against melee is like one of the worst ideas you could possibly do unless your entire surrounding area is clear of enemies and traps, or the melee missed his first hit

[carmine current]

exact example was you said a naked barb, well if you already have teh mm channeled the barb wont get his second hit off before the entire channel goes off.

[cerulean pollen]

maybe at max gear sure, but at that point is everyone is one shotting each other so its moot

[carmine current]

no litterally base kit vs base kit

[lusty wren]

MM is the easiest thing in the game to dodge besides a non buffed barb 😄

[cerulean pollen]

idk man, we'll just have to agree to disagree. imo magic missile is not a problematic aspect of wizard

[boreal sun]

magic missile is only problematic in that damage buffs apply to each individual missile

[carmine current]

watch literally any of the wizard videos on youtube. every single one of them has clips of them doing just that

[cerulean pollen]

ignite needs to be an entirely DoT effect with no flat damage bonus, and lightning strike / ice bolt need to be more impactful to warrant using so theres more build diversity and less frustration over all with the same 3 spells

[carmine current]

yes mm is easy to dodge, unless your point blank range ontop of the person

[boreal sun]

and that they can cast it near-instantly with haste and approach you with invis, so a wizard can be behind you and magic-missiling before you can properly react/get to cover

it could be considered an outplay but

[lusty wren]

If you are point blank to them when they start MM they are dead

[boreal sun]

magic missile's DPS is unmatched

[spice pawn]

I noticed that once you get going a little on barb, a great way to mitigate barb speed is to always run with 9x+ francisca axes on your utility belt.

Just the occasional threat of them is enough against most players

[boreal sun]

never underestimate the axe

[cerulean pollen]

to be fair that requires you selecting arcane mastery, having haste, invis, and magic slotted, and haste and invis active

[lusty wren]

This is a problem with invis and haste stacking, not with MM

[boreal sun]

it's so fun to throw them at the back of a wizard's head when he's running away and he just
ragdolls

[carmine current]

we are saying a base kit wizard to a base kit barb. if the wizard starts the channel when the barb is on top of him yes the wizard is dead. if the wizard sits there and channels then barb comes into point blank range of him then barb is dead

[cerulean pollen]

thats 1 perk selected, 3 spell slots, and 2 active buffs to be able to do that. thats a ton of investment

[spice pawn]

Also, I don't know if it needs to be nerfed, but I found it incredibly easy to chain throw francisca axes and kill someone once the 1st shot lands. they slow so badly

[boreal sun]

yeah but what else are you even bringing as wizard

other than the best combinations for your buck

[lusty wren]

If a barb goes into point blank range with you channeling they are dumb. They could easily step to the right or left and avoid the MM

[cerulean pollen]

congratulations, you've figured out wizards niche

[boreal sun]

wizard definitely fits the glass cannon archetype

[carmine current]

yeah and a wizard can just move the shots since you know you can aim them

[wintry forge]

They've said they do.

[lusty wren]

Invis, haste, ignite, chain lighting

Most wizards I know only really use MM for pve

[boreal sun]

it just is up to debate whether the "cannon" part is too good

[lusty wren]

Very slowly, if you cant see how easily avoidable MM is i dunno what to tell you. Wiz issue is invis and haste stacking NOT mm

[boreal sun]

or if it's misplaced

[strange sable]

Suspense do you downvote my suggestions no matter what they are?

[boreal sun]

I think the spells should be the strong part, with ignite dagger probably being too good considering the strengths daggers already have

[cerulean pollen]

a lot of it really just that each class has its own niche, and part of that is wizard is good at pvp, where as other classes arent so much

[lusty wren]

Eh, wizard fills rogue niche better than rogue. as I said due to haste and invis stacking

[carmine current]

like i was saying to begin with. if you have gg gear, then a single projectile form mm can oneshot you, since the entire point that was being said is that other classes oneshot wizard with good gear as well.

[cerulean pollen]

thats cause of ignite/dagger memes

[boreal sun]

well remember
PvE will be optimized for cheese/low-risk and ultimately the danger will become other players at "high level", so in that case you could argue that wizard is the best class

[cerulean pollen]

wizard has better opening burst than rogue sometimes lol

[lusty wren]

GG gear vs GG gear? Or are you saying GG gear vs a naked? 😄

[boreal sun]

but idk how wizard works against bosses

[brittle patrol]

i enjoy rogue purly for the speed and outplay potentintal

[lusty wren]

Wizard does this better with invis/haste

[boreal sun]

would it be "okay" for wizard to burst down players with little effort but suck against bosses? is that a good balancing factor? I don't know

[brittle patrol]

into players that are less experinced i agree, but rogues can do heaps of burst then run faster consistantly and reset just differnt playstyles

[spice pawn]

Iono, I thoroughly enjoy defensive rogue Hide ambush. especially around blue portals

[lusty wren]

Not at all, Wizard ignites/hastes/invis gets into position blows up a target disengages with haste/invis and does it again. Much better then a rogue

[carmine current]

gg gear vs gg gear. wizard has 9 pieces that can give stats like additional magic damage, true magic damage, % magic damage, will, and all stats. the flats roll from 1-6 flat damage meaning with just 2 perfect rolls of those on each piece you would have 108 flat damage added with the base 10 from mm being 118, then you get 12 total shots being a total damage output of 1416 per full cast.

[lusty wren]

In 60 hours of playtime on the last test server I never saw a MM one hit a person. So Ill take what you say with a grain of salt 😉

[brittle patrol]

I never tried wiz so I cant say, i only played rogue to a high level and rogue felt good but not for what rogues should be good for imo

[boreal sun]

I've seen videos of a solo wizard bursting people down with MM

it's really funny and satisfying but idk if it's cherry-picked clips or a consistent strat

[lusty wren]

ya full volleys

😄

[boreal sun]

ah, you mean from a single projectile

[lusty wren]

If you get hit by a full volley of MM you deserve to die

[spice pawn]

it's harder to land MM up-close when they know to zig-zag

[boreal sun]

even if they haste/invised behind you and there's no cover?

that's where it really shines

[lusty wren]

Haste/invis stacking is the problem not MM

[boreal sun]

true

[lusty wren]

No reason to fix a non issue when your actual issue is fixed by not letting those two spells stack

[boreal sun]

but that's context you gotta include in saying whether "getting hit by full MM is a skill issue"

[spice pawn]

maybe they can just nerf invis by removing it's inherent move speed increase

[boreal sun]

because most full MMs are gonna be post-invis

[carmine current]

im not saying that i saw it 1 shot either but it exists in the game. the issue is people never got far enough to get all the pieces of gg gear. for instance my friend had on average for each piece of 4 additional magic damage, and 2 true magic damage, with either will all stat or spell cap on the gear. meaning even with that he was doing 64 minimum per shot

[lusty wren]

I stated to many times that they shouldn't stack people are getting annoyed by it so I try to refrain a bit 😉

[spice pawn]

why not, though

[cerulean pollen]

not a bad idea, remove invis' movespeed buff and turn ignite into an all damage over time effect instead of a flat bonus and you got a winning recipe there

[boreal sun]

what is ignite's flat damage value?

is it the same as divine strike?

[spice pawn]

I wouldn't mind, because ignite always felt a tad underwhelming on barbs. if anything, the flaming graphical effect was mroe of a debuff since enemy players could clearly see where our barb was, and all he got was the fixed dmg per swing buff + tiny DoT

[karmic zenith]

Sorry, I had to take care of something, but as I was talking about the fighter, do you guys think it's fair if they buff the second wind ability so that it can be used while holding weapons or shields and attacking, or is that too broken?

[cerulean pollen]

5 baseline + burn effect + 5% dmg and extra burn duration from fire mastery perk

scaled by spell damage ofc

[minor pond]

A bunch of people here do that, like Ness, Tanner, Suspense, Just to name a few

[lusty wren]

I think this would be a nice QoL and doesnt make it OP but maybe puts it into a better place

[carmine current]

im not sure about the burn damage but the base was 5, but the 5 also stacked with everythign that gave flat magic damage and true magic damage

[wintry forge]

And they've said the game isn't anywhere near final balance. They're testing things now.

[cerulean pollen]

you got good takes, keep it going man

[boreal sun]

would probably be fair
second wind is already balanced by the fact that it's not a fast enough heal to save you from burst damage
if you use it mid-swing and you're at 20HP and you get punished, you're still going to die either way

it would take a LOT to make second wind OP I think

because 50 HP over time is worse than having 50 more max HP (barb)

[carmine current]

you cant use second wind during an attack animation nor can you use sprint during an attack animation

[boreal sun]

gotcha

[lusty wren]

Second wind needs to be as effective as rations but different right now rations is the best self sustain in the game and rangers dont need the best self sustain in the game with the best CC in the game and the second highest single target dmg in the game

[cerulean pollen]

maybe make ignite a scalable DoT effect that goes up / down in damage and duration based on weapon speed?

fast weapons - lowest damage per tick, longer duration
medium speed weapons - middle ground
slow weapons - high damage per tick, shortest duration

[karmic zenith]

Alright, thanks for your input guys, I'll just leave that there for you guys to discuss, I need to go to bed.

[boreal sun]

can second wind be restored by campfires?

[stiff imp]

Question to people that don’t want “skin” to have bonus/weakness talking bout the skeleton.
I think the skeleton was meant to be a “race” and not a skin. It was said in the shop that it was a race and dev said they were implementing first race with this play test.I think race should have bonus/weakness to play with

[boreal sun]

I know some abilities can

[lusty wren]

If you have 2+

[boreal sun]

oof

[lusty wren]

Takes like a green campfire and a white one to get second wind back

[lucid root]

Undead race

[spice pawn]

does anyone know if high-tier campfires can do second wind in 1 go?

[carmine current]

second wind was okay if you went for tankiness and as much strength as possible. on my fighter i had about 140 total hp and ~50% damage reduction so it didnt feel terrible, but it didnt feel super impactful either

[spice pawn]

actually... is it even possible for blue+ campfires to spawn at all?

[carmine current]

yes

[lusty wren]

When you compare it to rations (the best self sustain in the game) its very lacking

[spice pawn]

oh man. hot stuff for a cleric that's running dry

[boreal sun]

second wind restoring over a cooldown, would it be OP? or would it just give fighter a better niche as a tank

[carmine current]

i found a single one in my entire time of playing and had like 10 in my stash that were green

[lusty wren]

I found a blue and it did not restore second wind but i only found one

[wintry forge]

I don't see any reason why this can't be as realistic as a fantasy dungeon crawler can be.

[boreal sun]

realism isn't always a plus

you want the game to be fun and engaging, first and foremost

[lusty wren]

Only time I ever got SECOND WIND back was when I used a green campfire and then a white one afterwards

[carmine current]

yeah i get that but fighter's one unique part of it is that you can activate it and forget it kinda. you cant just take rations in the middle of a melee fight since you would just die.

[spice pawn]

I've noticed that the devs prefer to balance between aggregate/spiritual representation and absolute realism/simulation-level detail

[lusty wren]

Rations you activate it and its INSTANT

[strange sable]

Because realism sacrifices game play. This is a game not real life

[lusty wren]

Step out of range eat a ration and boom you are back int eh fight

[spice pawn]

hopefully they'll do the weight thing well. I do like the idea of having to upgrade so that yo uhave more inventory squares, though

[carmine current]

but you activate it and you ahve to eat the ration. you have an animation for it, in which you cant do anything

[spice pawn]

what if they add those isekai trope pocket dimension rings (maybe a literal unique item) that adds extra inventory squares to your INV when you equip the rings (and adds no weight, either)

[lusty wren]

It is vastly superior to second wind, It takes very little time to "eat" its got multiple charges, its instant, its also on the class that has the best CC in the game, and has one of the best single target dmg

[carmine current]

are you saying to get rid of the 1 limit and just have a cd for it? if so yes it would be op especially early on.

[lusty wren]

I think it needs UPTUNED but not unlimited with just a CD

[brittle patrol]

that mechanic just adds unfun and tedium to the game it does not add anything that is fun or rewarding

[carmine current]

i dont disagree im just saying there are use cases where second wind can be better. for instance in melee combat rations wont help you, second wind still can

[sonic pendant]

second wind shouldn't get a cooldown, but the latest nerf made it take two whole campfires to get it back, and that was a bad decision imo. one campfire was plenty

[lusty wren]

Very very very few cases. Almost all cases rations is just superior. It takes very little time, its instant and it has multiple charges. Its just BETTER. No reason for it. Fighter needs it vastly more than a ranger

[carmine current]

it depended on the rarity of camp fire you used green campfires always gave it back every time

[lusty wren]

Rations needs tuned down, and second wind needs tuned up a bit

[spice pawn]

Ultra-high resolution realism is probably only good for literal simulation games (think SimCity, Sim Farm, Trucker Sim, etc.). In these cases, the more sophisticated the controls, the better.

I find that in games where the combat scenarios can get incredibly complex, having a simple and intuitive front-end (i.e. simple player controls) helps with digesting all the complexity before it becomes a gigantic chore (i.e. requiring a PhD in qualification before I can finally be effective at the game)

[carmine current]

i dont disagree i also think fighter should have better options for skills since sprint feels okay but not great, and second wind just feels like a skill you have to take since all the others were bad

[boreal sun]

I can see weight going a few ways:

1. A value that effects movespeed based on what's in your inventory, equipped or not. The worst option, would turn looting in a loot-based game into an unfun process and hurt balance even more.

2. A value that effects movespeed based on what you have equipped. (We already have this, just not under the name "weight")

3. A value that doesn't effect movespeed, but forces a "cap" on how much stuff you can carry. Possibly an okay solution, but we already have a limited grid with different items taking up different amounts of space, so this would be redundant. Plus, it'd result in you "capping" and having blank inventory spaces, which would just "feel" bad in a loot-based game.

I'm not sure what other ways it could be represented

[wintry forge]

People are assuming that if they think a suggestion is bad, that it in fact is bad, instead of that just being their opinion. Sure, there are some troll suggestions, but there are others that are sincere suggestions that you might disagree with, but that doesn't make them all bad.

[lusty wren]

Agreed

[lusty wren]

For example. Asking for us to have to pay 5 dollars a week to play the game is a bad suggestion whether its a troll suggestion or not 😉

[strange sable]

Suspense do you downvote all my suggestions no matter the contents of them?

[carmine current]

well i can say that all the suggestions saying to remove the map are bad suggestions and 99% of the community agrees with that.

[wintry forge]

Some of these might even be good. Let's leave it up to the devs to decide.

[boreal sun]

opinions can be bad, what matters is whether people actually take the time to analyze and discuss them to expose why they're flawed

(kind of why a vote system is flawed, but at least this channel exists for further discussion)

[boreal sun]

they could be, yeah

popular opinion doesn't dictate quality

[exotic mural]

this game is ispired by DnD, Ranger hunts for food, fighter gets an instant healing ability once per short rest called second wind in DnD

[vestal thorn]

Second wind scales with HP modifiers, rations I think don't with any attribute even +phys healing. I honestly think fighters could use something other than second wind that makes you choose, because it seems like everyone just runs sprint + second wind meaning the other skills need some love maybe?.

[lusty wren]

People should not make their suggestions a part of their identity and get pissy when people have opposing viewpoints on it 😄

[carmine current]

well second wind isnt instant in DaD its over 10 secs

[spice pawn]

Yeah. Devs probably don't go by the vote ratio, and are aware of the self-selection effect where only specific subsets of their current playerbase would even take the time to read a suggestion and vote on it

[boreal sun]

this is just opinions in general
people find it hard to separate the idea from the person, especially if they themselves made the idea
if someone attacks an idea, they are not necessarily attacking the person who suggested it, and that disconnect needs to be maintained for proper discussion

[lusty wren]

They are not 1:1 as you know (if you played the game) second wind is not instant

[wintry forge]

I'm on vacation.

[lusty wren]

Yes, this is my point I agree

[carmine current]

exactly. i said just a bit ago what i did was full strength, all stats and % damage reduction on my gear had about 140 hp and 50% damage reduction. it was fine enough, but that much hp didnt matter vs gg geared players. with tons of flat damage rolls

[lusty wren]

Most devs use the ratio as a minimum metric to look at the suggestion. From my experience anyways

[boreal sun]

they also do need to factor popularity, at least to some degree
piss off too many players and a change that is healthy might also kill the game by just causing people to leave

it's an annoying balance

it'd be more useful if each suggestion had a thread attached so people could discuss its merits directly in a place where the devs can view the discussion

instead of trying to find discussion in a constantly active all-around channel like this one

[spice pawn]

maybe we'll see wrist-crossbow rogues at some point. shoot annoying little needles that do throwing knife levels of strike dmg but apply some sort of DoT/debuff

[wintry forge]

Harder attack patterns, but less health. Imo sponginess is the wrong strategy for increasing AI difficulty.

[lusty wren]

Discord already crashed during playtests though due to much load. This will compound that issue

[carmine current]

well throwing knives and the throwing axes still gained bonsuses from weapon damage, physical damage, and true physical damage meaning you could get them to hit very hard. also rogue that comes out of stealth, with weakspot active and hits the target from behind can deal 110% increased damage for the next hit. so if you give rogues a reliable ranged option then they will be able to oneshot you at ranged from stealth

[spice pawn]

I'm going to assume that the current modifiers are still aspects of an early stage item system (meaning things will change before prime time)

[lusty wren]

What we really need is more moderation on the suggestions. The last like 5 suggestions are so trolly its crazy

[spice pawn]

it still feels very much like a placeholder system to me

[carmine current]

i hope so since i think getting tons of flat damage added is dumb

[covert ember]

some are realy trolly but dont count mine as an trolly one 😄

[lusty wren]

Ya sorry it got grouped with the others. That one didnt seem trolly 😉

[spice pawn]

although rare, interesting combinations can spawn out of bizarre, or outright terrible ideas (at least on initial impression)

[boreal sun]

the reliance on flat damage makes fast weapons objectively the best option, so I hope % increases get more love so "bigger" weapons can scale powerfully as well

[carmine current]

yeah i just made it past the cut for troll suggestions. mine is the 6th

[lusty wren]

Look at them. they arent just outright terrible ideas. They are quite obviously trolls / bait

[covert ember]

i want more grind on merchents something i can upgrade them feeding them with items and get a "little" benefit out of it not to much to make it broken but at least so much like you get on last tier always atleast 1 blue item at the merchent

[wintry forge]

Leave the classes as is until all content is in the game.

[lusty wren]

I know quests are a thing devs said they wanted, I agree would add more things to grind which is good

[spice pawn]

iono. having your female avatar's hair whip things is kinda like Divinity Original Sin's shapeshifter thingie

[boreal sun]

I do think the focus on balance discussion is maybe a side effect of the game currently being closed
people want to engage with the game but can't play it, so balance discussions are the next best thing, even if balance isn't a priority (as stated by the dev)

[covert ember]

and my thought was an "sell" items quest wont be the biggest work to implement it instead the real questlins

[sonic pendant]

second wind should be returned after one campfire, not several, and they could use a bit of a speed buff; tiny tiny speed buff, but just a little more, so they didn't always have to choose sprint

[carmine current]

i think they need to do adjustments at least a little bit for each playtest. since as it currently stands if the next playtest went live without any changes you would see sooooooooo many people playing 2-3 classes only and the rest of the 3 would be like under 5% representation of the player base.

[spice pawn]

Well... might take some mental gymnastics, but there are often precedents for a lot of the suggestions. whether or not it'd fit the DnD ecosystem is another story

[lusty wren]

agreed, got my upvote

[carmine current]

it comes back depending on the type of camp fire you use. if you use gray it doesnt, but green campfires do give it back

[lusty wren]

NO they dont

It takes a green and a white

[carmine current]

no 2 grays gave it back, 1 single green gave it back. it depends on how long the campfire lasts the more people sit at a campfire the less time it has. so if you are solo and put a green campfire down yes it will give you 100% of the second wind back

[lusty wren]

Wrong

[carmine current]

okay literally played fighter every single game and always brought campfire in every single run, but okay.

[lusty wren]

Sure

Can you refrain from pinging me back to back please

[carmine current]

can you stop responding nonsense when you have no idea how it worked

[boreal sun]

I think we'd need the numbers on how this sort of recharge system works

you're both operating anecdotally and I'm not sure anyone's tested and documented this

[frosty creek]

block @lusty wren he is a bully

[vestal thorn]

Campfires restore spell points and each skill has a points # so every campfire just restores a set amount to all skills/spells (if it can) it may take 1 or 3+ campfires depending on grade but it should according the player handbook. I'm pretty sure.

[spice pawn]

didn't realize sharing campfires killed them faster. didn't pay close enough attention

[boreal sun]

but unless we know the values of each skill and the amount each campfire restores, then it's pretty hard to know for sure how it works

[brittle patrol]

I didnt think it did i thought the raraity dictated the length

[wintry forge]

No, and I hope everyone doesn't down vote my suggestions because they know it's from me either. Like I've said before, most of the suggestions get down voted. It doesn't mean they're bad, it's just our opinion. It's up to the devs to decide to implement any suggestions, and they've said they read them. I don't think they'll be too influenced by community feedback, because it's their game and they've said they don't want to exploit their customers. I don't vote on everything I read either.

[vestal thorn]

It was written somewhere, not sure how accurate I'll put it here if I find it again.

[carmine current]

@boreal sun its fully dependent on how long you rest at a camp fire or use something like meditation. for instance if you meditate for half the duration you dont get the maximum amount back. if you go to a campfire and rest then even after getting to full hp wait for the rest of the campfire duration it should give you the skill back depending on the quality of the campfire. so like i mentioned a green which has a longer duration will give you it back. if you leave it early or have others sit at it, then obviously it wont, but thats on the person not the game

[boreal sun]

I think next playtest I'm gonna try to test/document things a bit better, if only for my own curiosity

[frosty creek]

pls make suggestion anonymous ... i agree with suspense
haters are bullying me because they dont like me
even with good ideas

[boreal sun]

like what flat damage values different weapon rarities have

and how damage reduction/phys power % works

[lusty wren]

Because time was dictated by rarity 😄 Time starts ticking from placement even with no one interacting with it. That guy just is unaware of how it works

[boreal sun]

hard to test with how hard it is to get a training dummy though

might need to repeatedly join new lobbies and leave before they start

[brittle patrol]

if you leave a lobby you dont take anything out with you

[spice pawn]

suggestions should be anonymous, though- helps prevent in-grouping or hierarchy (however temporary) from bleeding into the votes

[boreal sun]

I mean that's how it works at a glance, but unless you documented exactly how many seconds/"ticks" of campfire you sat for, it's not very helpful

[carmine current]

weapon damages had a range for the rarity from my experience every single one could vary about 4 damag or so

[boreal sun]

💀

[boreal sun]

I'm talkin' making an excel sheet, not operating on memory

[wintry forge]

I think realism is fun.

[brittle patrol]

I would join sometimes and realize i forgot to buy meds then have to force a run with no meds

[brittle patrol]

i think if you like realisim play tarkov or chivilray or mordehou. i hope\ they stear clear of most realisisim things in this game

[wintry forge]

Not in my opinion. I like simulation games.

[boreal sun]

it can be, but it also can not be
it's up to the individual mechanics you add and how they interact with the rest of the game
for example, an inventory weight system in a game about collecting as much loot as possible is counter-intuitive and thus hurts the gameplay experience
but a realistic directional sound system allows you to pinpoint other players/mobs and thus helps the experience

"realism" as a blanket term is unhelpful

you need to analyze each individual thing

[spice pawn]

more like level of detail -- resolution. people like different levels of detail

[vestal thorn]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/493519391867011107/1060301293509419100/image.png

From https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_YNh5ava9fOXLA9kzthtaK7yHTuKSlef/view
Play test 2? (so a bit old)
But the only numbers I've seen. Was pretty sure this was still the case for meditate and wiz spells not 100% on campfires + other skills/spells.

I expect it to get mined pretty thoroughly next playtest if it's long enough.

[carmine current]

i mean stuff like that depends on every skill. so then you would have to do it on second wind, then test it on every spell. like there was a genearl way of viewing it for spells meditation gave 2+ uses back for t2 spells 1 use for t3, about half a use for t4 and 5. i would say something like second wind would be more akin to getting back a t5 spell, though i never once tested getting spells back with a campfire as wizard since there was never a reason and i didnt play wizard

[boreal sun]

it says "campfires restore 100" but would that require a frame-perfect sitdown? do players with lower interact speed for sitting get punished? that's the kinda thing I wanna figure out

[wintry forge]

I forget. Were we discussing weight? I think they can have speed penalties based on gear weight, instead of the current gear movement penalties. If they add weight to gear, then you can see why your movement is slower.

[vestal thorn]

Wish I could answer that.

[boreal sun]

yeah I'm just talking theoretically

these are questions I want to test next time

[spice pawn]

bad ideas- modern refrigerator + DnD

[carmine current]

more then likely

[boreal sun]

ideally a campfire would only start "ticking down" once someone sits

but I doubt that's how they function

[lusty wren]

Its not, they start ticking the second they are placed

[wintry forge]

I think this might be a form of exploitation that the devs have said they want to avoid.

[spice pawn]

Unless... refrigerator = snow biome levels, and/or bodies of water can be frozen so that you can walk over it

[carmine current]

well campfires dont work that way like if they did you would set the campfire down and wait till the last second of the duration of it, then sit down and immidately get up will the full recharge back

[lusty wren]

I agree, but it is a bad suggestion partly because of what the devs have said

[wintry forge]

I like the added challenge of not being able to constantly look in the corner of my screen at the map. And I know, maybe people could just pull up a map on a second monitor.

[lusty wren]

How do you know where the circle is then?

[spice pawn]

hardcore mode- no map

[lusty wren]

If you remove the minimap you got to remove the circle IMO

Unless you want some indicator on screen which goes against your realism arguments

[wintry forge]

People shouldn't be insulting people because of suggestions they think are bad. Some comments read as personal attacks.

[spice pawn]

how about a fog of war on the mini-map, but you can see where the circle line is

[carmine current]

then they shoudl add a toggle for it if you dont want to use it. if you want to make it harder for yourself then thats fine. hell you could do it in the next playtest, just put a sticky note over your map when you play then problem solved.

[spice pawn]

that way you don't know what the upcoming map tile is until you get closer for more info

[lusty wren]

Its perfectly justifiable to have a negative opinion on what one views as a bad suggestion. This is not a personal attack. People need to be less soft

[lusty wren]

I mean map knowledge is a thing. You will know these things even with a fog of war

[spice pawn]

fog of war would probably only be meaningful if the individual map tile pieces were smaller

[lusty laurel]

without circle the game would need static exfil and the circle is what makes this game different and enjoyable

[wintry forge]

They could've just finished the game without any player feedback. They don't need our suggestions, but they're interested in hearing them.

[lusty wren]

Read the context. It was a IF statement IF the minimap was REMOVED

[carmine current]

there is a saying play stupid games win stupid prizes. if people ask for stupid stuff, then win the stupid prize of getting blasted for the idea

[spice pawn]

others have touched on this, but at the very least- BR circle prevents extended camper-strike plays

the pace of the circle means that you can still camp a place, but generally not for that long (unless you destroyed the obvious final circle zones and camped those out)

[agile condor]

Many of the trolls comments often feel like "make the game more like this other game" and they're often so far off that it feels like the user is either completely trolling or barely played the game at all.

[lusty laurel]

i mean the minimap is really that important? once you play the same map for days you know where you are

[boreal sun]

the minimap is important for knowing where the zone will be

[lusty wren]

But the circle closes in different ways. How do you know where the circle is without a minimap? You can do some shit like on screen indicators that point you towards it but that shit is lame as hell

[lusty laurel]

just a general map with the circle is fine i think

[carmine current]

lets just say this and put an end to the removing map discussion. if you want mapped removed to make the game harder, then add a toggle for it. that way you can play as hardcore as you want. if you are like the majority of the community and want to keep the map, then just dont turn off the map toggle. boom problem solved! everyone wins!

[boreal sun]

I think those sorts of changes work well as toggles

[spice pawn]

probably this. if you remove it, there's always the group that keeps the map open on another screen, as folks have mentioned

[lusty wren]

The same people who want minimap removed will be the same peopl who complain they die to the circle cus they dont know where it is 😄

Hard gameplay is what I want. Hard and unfair are very different things. and dying to zone simply because you have no clue where it is does not sound like fun

[agile condor]

I do want to know the numbers of things but I don't know if it helps the game or not unfortunately

[wintry forge]

I already have Tarkov and Mordhau.

[carmine current]

agreed and it makes it really terrible when you consider that some runs you spawn super far away from the circle. meaning if you played as normal, and couldnt tell where the circle would be going, then your going to be rushing room to room even on the first zone close in.

[lusty wren]

Great, that means you want DaD to be a different thing right? Unique from those titles

[agile condor]

No, I know what suspense wants, it's not dark and darker, it's some cross breed between Escape from Tarkov and Mordhau

[wintry forge]

You don't. That's part of the challenge.

[brittle patrol]

L take man

[wintry forge]

No, there have been plenty of personal attacks.

[brittle patrol]

you are suggesting things that id say a lot of people dont like from other games for this game, hence the large difference in up/down votes which is fine it just lets the devs know that people dont want those things

[lusty wren]

This is not challenge. Guessing where a circle is going to move that you cant see is just lame

[agile condor]

Still my favorite suggestion - #d-and-d-suggestions message - suggesting something that is already in the game they just didn't play the game to realize it, yet they still got downvoted hah

[wintry forge]

Basically what D&D is now, but with more Mordhau melee mechanics.

[lusty wren]

Final thought on the minimap issue. If one does not know where the circle is it becomes a guessing game which is anti skill.

Id hate for skill to become not relevant for any reason

[wintry forge]

I played the game 34 hours. Don't make baseless claims. And I'm assuming you blocked me because you still haven't told me where the locked doors are. In my 34 hours playing, I never once came across a locked door.

[brittle patrol]

those mechanics are why i personally dont like mordhau, directional combat is not fun to me which is why i perfer this game and dont play chiv/mord

[wintry forge]

<@&988703997378584596> Would you please ask for everyone to be polite in here.

[agile condor]

Aren't there custom servers on Mordhau lol?? Go into their discord and suggest to make Mordhau like Dark & Darker

[inner radish]

I don't see anyone breaking the rules or causing issues here. They simply, pointed out a fact.

Of course I agree everyone should be polite but this isn't an issue in this specific case at least.

[sonic pendant]

you're not allowed to critique his posts, he'll call the wardens on you.

ahahah nm too late

[carmine current]

what was bad about what he said? emba said nothing that would be considered bad. if your hurt by someone barely making fun of an idea, then you need to be the one to reflect. since no one has to be nice to you.

[heavy spade]

Are we not allowed to make fun of dumb suggestions ? (like the ult one) 🤔 what else am i gonna do waiting for next playtest

[boreal sun]

I'd rather the combat not turn into mordhau

the simplicity is nice in comparison, if I wanted to play mordhau I'd go play mordhau

[sonic pendant]

#d-and-d-suggestions message i think this is an important suggestion because it will allow players to tune the meta much faster, and find the game breaking strategies much faster. it's always better for meta to be exposed quickly rather than have a small group who figured something out exploit it for ages.

[agile condor]

Just talking about suggestions in this channel, I have the troll blocked, not my fault they're still showing me all his troll suggestions

[boreal sun]

I mostly want it so I can more easily fill out excel sheets for my own personal enjoyment but that's also an important reason

[inner radish]

Okay guys, I have said already that they weren't breaking the rules no need to continue on the subject. Also @carmine current please refrain from using emojis to insult others, I have removed it since I believe this was actually breaking the rules.

[carmine current]

it wasnt but sure lol

[wintry forge]

Emba and others keep mocking me for my down voted suggestions, and Emba claimed I made the suggestion about adding doors that require a lockpick because I haven't played the game, but I've played for 34 hours.

[lusty wren]

People are discussing the suggestions which is what this forum is for. Id suggest ignoring the people who you feel are offending you. Discord mute is great for that

[inner radish]

They have the right to find it funny and to disagree with a suggestion.
If they are actively harassing you that is a different thing but it doesn't seem like it by looking at the chat.

If you would rather not get feedback that are negative then I would advise not posting in the #d-and-d-suggestions, because it can happen.
This channel is here to discuss the Suggestions and people have the right to like or dislike a suggestion and talk about it in here.

I would suggest avoiding the #suggestion-discussion if you desire to continue making suggestions but do not want feedback from other users.

I hope you understand this isn't against you but we cannot stop people from having opinions.

[lusty wren]

Thanks for the clarification Mellie

[brittle patrol]

What do poeple think can be buffed about rogue, i personally like rup/weakpoint but as it has been pointed out wiz is just better at being a rogue.

[lusty wren]

Id rather just stop wiz from stacking invis/haste.

[strange sable]

Rogue should be able to interact with doors and crouch walk while stealthed

[brittle patrol]

like perma stealth crouch?

[lusty wren]

I do think 10 steps by default would be nice for rogue and then add another 10 from the perk or something

[agile condor]

Better stealth

[serene snow]

rouge and mage were the most op last playtest

[carmine current]

no

[lusty wren]

Do you know this for sure?

[inner radish]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/739109263787425866/1053078044874653697/RougeAndRogueemoji.gif

[strange sable]

wdym by that?

[brittle patrol]

yeah that seems a bit too much

[lucid root]

I heard wizard was the least played class last playtest is that true?

[sonic pendant]

i think hide should include the 10 step mvmt without need for a wasted perk, pickpocket should be possible while invisible, and there should be an option for a timed invis like wizard, with a cooldown, so a rogue can effectively reposition like a wizard.

[lusty wren]

As in if you haste yourself then invis it overrides the haste. This is what makes wiz better at rogue things then rogue

[serene snow]

that's the way i spell it

[carmine current]

i dont think rogues were to op. they were just a good solo class so people in solo opted to playing it a lot in group play it was weaker

[lucid root]

I thought for sure cleric would be the least played

[strange sable]

Nah I don't like that

[heavy spade]

Wizard and cleric were most op tbh, rogue is a step below

[sonic pendant]

it's rogue not rouge. the latter is a shade of red

[lusty wren]

Do we know what was most played atm? I havent seen them put the stats out yet like they did playtest 2

[boreal sun]

cleric is an appealing class to new players because of its bonus against NPCs and the self-heal/party play

[carmine current]

i mean even with just haste they are tied for the fastest movement in the game

[brittle patrol]

I dont think those stats have been put out yet

[lusty wren]

Ya I didnt think so. People just like to assume but I thought maybe i missed something 😉

[brittle patrol]

I wish they would i really enjoyed looking through the data of playtest 2 even though i did not play it

[heavy spade]

only for previous playtests

[lusty wren]

Speed and speed while invis are vastly different things

[lucid root]

Definitely seemed like I met rogues and rangers the most

[strange sable]

@vivid rover Why would you downvote a suggestion for a tutorial? #d-and-d-suggestions message

[lusty wren]

Same they said they are but will take a bit

[carmine current]

yes but just haste alone gave teh speed of sprint with more utility then it

[next violet]

Just a cannon stuck in a place, I was thinking of it just as a mean for an enviroment weapon to activate in the middle of combat, it may be nice if it reveals a new room after breaking a wall.
For damage, idk, enough to kill most people, but barely less than needed to kill a well equiped tanky player, just for the bragging rights of surviving the cannon (as an achivement would be nice)

[heavy spade]

because the normal dungeon is basically already a tutorial ;P

[inner radish]

Well, it isn't the right way. Rouge mean red in French, it also is in English a shade of red and finally it can be lipstick. Rogue isn't one of them
Either way you do you hun, just I will keep trying

[vivid rover]

fuck that, it doesnt fit the hardcore experience of the game. its fun to discover things through trial by fire

[lucid root]

I downvoted tutorial too

[strange sable]

Then you can do that, but I don't see anything negative only positive about the idea of a tutorial

[serene snow]

i refuse to learn

[vivid rover]

youre allowed to have that objectively wrong opinion, now scram

[lusty wren]

Because its vague, Is this a permanent place? Does loot exit with you in this place? Lots of unanswered questions that would change my vote. So i downvoted

[strange sable]

It's crazy to me how people only vote for stuff they personally like instead of thinking about what could make the game more successful

[sonic pendant]

#d-and-d-suggestions message this is what YT is for

[lusty wren]

If this "tutorial dungeon" is just free farming its bad for the game. Because you didnt clarify enough people are going to downvote it

[carmine current]

personally i think rogue to feel unique as a stealth class would just require wizards stealth to overall get nerfed. there were a ton of suggestions people made. i think the bare bones minimum they should do is 2-3x the cast time for stealth considering it was almost instant with just teh 20% cast speed perk.

[strange sable]

Who tf would rather watch a youtube video instead of learning in a in-game tutorial

[strange sable]

It would probably just be a simulated dungeon to learn instead of actually getting loot from it

[brittle patrol]

just do what cycle fronteier did, where you do a mini run learn the mechanics and dont take any loot out with you.

[lusty wren]

I think id add that tbh. It changes things alot.

[sonic pendant]

that's a lot of development to expect for 10 mins worth of tips and tricks.

[brittle patrol]

but also the spellbook, whatever was on the main menu was a legit guide to game mechanics

[heavy spade]

but dont make the tutorial forced like in the cycle, that shi annoying af

[lusty wren]

Cycle is also 1400 concurrent players. Id like to not use examples from that title personally 😄

[brittle patrol]

I agree with you

[brittle patrol]

I didnt say the game was good just an idea that guy could expand upon. cycle is chit game

[heavy spade]

the cycle gets decent numbers when it wipes

its late wipe rn

so no players

[strange sable]

Tutorials are very helpful for onboarding new players into the game, I think a tutorial is always worth it

[brittle patrol]

They had a thing that explained all the mechanics you just had to read like 5 pages of easy to consume mechanics

[lusty wren]

Going from 1500 to 2000 is not much of a bump 😄

[proven schooner]

Nah, the tutorial shouldn't be forced, its just so there is more casuals in the game. Having a game full with tryhards in a game likes this, see Mount and Blade combat and Chivalry 1, destroys the game.

[agile condor]

I actually agree with no real tutorial idk, game gives you free loadouts to go in and try the game out yourself to learn it

[lusty wren]

Whats the difference between a tutorial dungeon and the normal dungeon? You lose nothing going in with base gear and learning the game

[agile condor]

^

[proven schooner]

If you guys played chivalry 1, you know the crouch and look completely down and weird parries, and mount and blade is even oughh, then you would know

[strange sable]

It can get frustrating when you keep getting killed right away because you don't know how the game works

[heavy spade]

8k but yes, still not alot

[lusty wren]

Would this not occur in a tutorial dungeon?

HOw can you learn to pvp without pvp?

[lucid root]

That's how the game works, getting killed right away

[brittle patrol]

the hard part of this game for new players is not pvp, its pve 100%

[proven schooner]

The difference is, people died to the first monster they encountered, about 73% of players or something like that, and knowing today's community, a lot of people will call it bullshit. The difficulty of the monsters shouldn't be reduced, because that is what makes this game appealing, but telling us how to deal with it and then dying to it would at least make it justified.

[lusty wren]

Which can be learned for free in the normal dungeon with 0 risk

[strange sable]

You could learn pvp in the real dungeon but everything else could be tought in the tutorial

[brittle patrol]

i agree

[lusty wren]

If they died to pve that much wont they just die to pve in the tutorial dungeon?

[tardy smelt]

it's not going back up above 5,000. Yager can't balance to save their lives.

[proven schooner]

They would be given tips on how to take on the monsters, instead of just jamming into them head first

[lusty wren]

So why not just add tips? Why add a full tutorial dungeon?

[brittle patrol]

I tried playing it a few days ago, put in like 10 hours died to different people running through walls 4 of 12 player deaths on a brand new account

[lusty wren]

Yes they have a HUGE hacker problem F2P at its finest 😄

[proven schooner]

I haven't died to the monsters when I started, but my friends did, and out of 6 people I invited and played only 2 stayed as they couldn't solo monsters after like 5 dungeons, made them lose interest, and deleted the game

[lusty wren]

How does a tutorial dungeon help this? If they did 5 dungeons without learning how to fight pve how does them doing 5 tutorial dungeons help?

[brittle patrol]

then they just dont like the learning process of finding out what mobs do and how to conter it and thats ok

[sacred hill]

what is the tutorial about? turn torches on and off?

[tardy smelt]

haven't played since it was the o.g. The Cycle; asset flipping your own material after getting bought out by Tencent was the last straw. They killed our tournament community and were glad for it.

[heavy spade]

u dont know that, 8k was start of last wipe

[tardy smelt]

They struggle with player retention.

[proven schooner]

Most games that I know with combat intensive gameplay have tutorials like beginner rooms, e.g. M&B with a training ground, chivalry too

[brittle patrol]

they give them good gear maybe so you can kill pve easier and have a popup that suggests you bait an attack then run away and go in for a siwing

[lusty wren]

How many in this genre do? You can point to other genres all day long and they mean nothing

[proven schooner]

Yes, but keep in mind the good gear would only stay for tutorial, and we would get the basic stuff after we go into the normal dungeons

[lusty wren]

If you make it easier you are not teaching them how to fight the real PVE you are giving them a false sense of security that will get shattered in their first run

[brittle patrol]

sorry i should have been more clear, 100% the good gear would only stay in the tutorial and nothing you get in there comes out with you

[proven schooner]

Do not get me wrong, I loved getting dropped into the game and enjoying learning stuff on the spot, but me and you are a small part of people that tried the game. Like I said, with me being the 7th person out of my friends, only 2 of us stayed as the lack of tutorial took them away

[lusty wren]

That makes 0 sense. We are going to make everything super easy for you to learn. Then when you go into a real dungeon you get put back at square one and are even more frustrated because its so much harder than tutorial

[proven schooner]

2/7 people staying is a low number.

[brittle patrol]

I like how the game is and was presented. going from dying to the first thing i faught lik 6 times to being able to clear a room quickly by myself is fun to me

[lusty wren]

TIPS fixes this issue

[sacred hill]

my 12 y/o brother learn how to play in a few games by himself

[lusty wren]

Tips that can be disabled 😄

[proven schooner]

Tips aren't the same to be fair, being in a handheld environment helps

[lusty wren]

Those people who quit because it was to hard would quit after doing a nerfed tutorial dungeon and then facing REAL pve in their first match they are done

[proven schooner]

If you learnt how to ride a bike, I am guessing you weren't sent down a mountain to roll down without even being able to balance

[lusty wren]

YOu dont learn the game by playing a nerfed version of it with the best gear

😄

That is a quick way to let people think they are better then they are and when that is shattered they are lost

[proven schooner]

It wouldn't be nerfed, you would just respawn immediately with the monster there instead of having to wait for your death screen, find a lobby, get into lobby, find monster and die to it again, so it reduces the time of instead of 3-4 minutes of being able to encounter a type of monster, to 5 seconds

In my opinion, that was what turned most of my friends away, having to wait 4 minutes or however long to get back into a lobby and then die to the same monster over and over again

meanwhile in a tutorial, you would still die, but there would be no loading screens and stuff like that to slow you down from attempting to kill a type of monster

[brittle patrol]

no you learn with training wheels, IE a tutorial lol

[lusty wren]

You guys stated multiple times they woudl get good gear to do this tutorial mission 😄 This is not a accurate depiction of the game and sets a false sense of security that gest destroyed when they then go and get dismantled by pve

[lucid root]

i learned from watching streamers while my game was downloading

[brittle patrol]

ok then give them normal starter gear and just make them respawn instantly as they die

[sacred hill]

is the combat that complex? xD

[lusty wren]

That is a step in a much better direction

[proven schooner]

Not for us, but for some people it is haha

Man, it is such a fun game, but I couldn't get friends to play because of this no tutorial thing. Not being able to 3-stack is harsh, and most of the enjoyed time I had was when I duo-d or when I was locked to play Rogue or Wizard because they are probably the only classes that can 3v1 efficiently

[lusty wren]

3v1 is easy

1v3 is not

😄

[brittle patrol]

New players on ranger I think would be the best experince

[sacred hill]

change your friends

im your new professional friend

[proven schooner]

Wow, I didn't think of that

[brittle patrol]

i trust this AI face man

[lucid root]

don't need to change friends if i don't have any 😎

[proven schooner]

Ranger is such a false hope tho, when arrows get added to the game that class is finished

[lusty wren]

Again I think your suggestion would get much better reception if you were more clear that loot doesn't persist, and that they start with starter gear still 😉

[sacred hill]

lol im actually not a nerd xD

[proven schooner]

Should I make a second suggestion?

[brittle patrol]

I think the system they have this last playtest was great make them reload, they dont need to have arrows taking up slots

[proven schooner]

or would I get banned for making a second suggestion of the same caliber?

[vestal thorn]

What games do your friends normally play? I felt there was quite a bit of cross over game play mechanics with fps which is a huge common genre no?

[lusty wren]

I think at least a edited one would be ok. But just my opinion on the matter

[brittle patrol]

something a true nerd would say, its okay youre among countrymen

[proven schooner]

Most of the mainstream multiplayer stuff; Tarkov, Fortnite, Fifa, Mortal Kombat, etc.

Only person that stayed to play was a friend that played both M&B and Chivalry 2, not 1

[vestal thorn]

If they can play those games and enjoy them I'd try and get them to just try the game at least once while it's free in play test. I've never played chiv, or any of the other heavy melee combat games and enjoyed my first time.

[proven schooner]

I would love to be able to experiment with mobs, like when I got to Centaurs they crushed me a lot and its hard to kill them without ranged to be fair, being able to experiment with mobs would be good

[proven schooner]

They did, but like I said, 2/7 people enjoyed, the other 5 said its bull left-overs, as they died in dungeons to the basic skeleton over and over because of kiting and having to hit it too many times

[lusty wren]

I agree

[proven schooner]

I am actually glad this didn't turn into a shit-storm like it usually does, and we were able to civilly convey ideas into something good. DnD people are very friendly, as much as they're toxic in-game haha

p.s. I am also toxic in-game, because its fun xP

[vestal thorn]

Hmm, I can see how that would turn them off. The spacing is the hardest thing to get used to as new player for sure. Outside of a tutorial I guess it's just based on you to run like a cleric, take aggro first and hold it, or spoon feed them some starter gear until maybe game is released.

Don't have much of a better answer. ☹️ Sucks cause after you get that down the game really starts to take off. 1st extraction feels really good.

[lusty wren]

Let me know if you edit your suggestion Ill upvote 😉

[proven schooner]

I just editted it

Thanks for the talk guys, enjoy the rest of your day

[strange sable]

What just happened

[proven schooner]

Nothing much, tutorial / training room discussion

[strange sable]

After looking over the suggestions, a suggestion has to have an opinion of 15+ to be green

[proven schooner]

Oh you don't understand how much fun it was for me to get out with a purple Longsword on my first extraction, got like 3 extra extractions in my first 10 games because of that

[proven schooner]

Yeah, the 6 dislikes ain't going to help it much

[sacred hill]

there was a suggestion about that, looks like they took it in consideration

[lusty wren]

Guy got a downvote turned into a upvote by being reasonable and talking thru the suggestion 😉

[boreal sun]

thanks for this, it includes a lot of excel sheets and nerd stuff which is what I was curious about testing
seems someone already did a lot of that! very cool

[ebon delta]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
I don't get it, why so many people upvote suggestions like this one. No reasoning, no explanations, no solutions, and yet somehow people agree with it. I can't even argue with that because there is literally nothing to discuss

[vestal thorn]

No problem someone linked that to me the first day and I spent a ton of time just reading it yeah... It's a lot and a great start. 👍

If you haven't already, take a look at the interactive map and the discord of that too, they'll eventually spoiler all the map hidden spots and static lockpick locations, etc.
https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Dark_and_Darker_Wiki

[boreal sun]

very useful for nerds like me

[sacred hill]

says the wizard xD

[strange sable]

I downvoted that, and it has 31 downvotes wdym people agree with it?

[ebon delta]

There is like 30 people who upvoted it tho!

[ebon delta]

And that's why i could give an opinion on things like that. But in this case, i can't. Because there is literally nothing to it

[sonic pendant]

every playtest has a class that is a little too strong. last time it was rangers. this time it's wizards. it's kind of just "known." i don't know how else to explain it. the suggestion is playing on that notion. it's not a 'good' suggestion, but it is a statement of general sentiment among many players

[eager creek]

Man I love reading bad suggestions here

Has @frosty creek made a positive upvoted post?

[strange sable]

Do you think the mage is overpowered because of the invis?

[eager creek]

Mage is op rn.

[strange sable]

How so

[agile condor]

Some low hanging fruit
#d-and-d-suggestions message

[ebon delta]

Didn't really felt that strong to me, but ok, i can see where are you coming from

[eager creek]

Utility + power. Haste invisible combo on a bard or fighter is op in its own right, but mage puts up massive damage too.

[agile condor]

#d-and-d-suggestions message this is impressive in itself, actually surprised there isn't even 1 upvote lolll

[eager creek]

Split mage by Giving bard the utility spells, mage keeps the damage.

[strange sable]

I agree with this, you should make a suggestion on this

[sacred hill]

u cant play then

[eager creek]

Oh I upvoted that too. Very good suggestion. A broken clock is right twice a day lol.

[eager creek]

On mobile, but feel free I'll upvote it.

[eager creek]

Which one of you upvoted this xD

[ebon delta]

Wdym by that?

[lucid root]

i think the overall damage of everything is going to get tuned down, if everything stays the way its at when the talent tree comes out, everything is going to be one shots

[eager creek]

Oh wait that's himself nvm.

[eager creek]

He's insulting your skills. 😦

[sacred hill]

do you feel insulted?

[eager creek]

But it's very rare to encounter good mages. I only see them on streams supporting the best 3 stacks.

[ebon delta]

A little bit, maybe. Mostly i don't understand how your statement have something to do with mine

[eager creek]

Nah to the chat, breaks immersion w more text, but opting into proximity chat will be fire @nocturne mantle 🔥 👌

[strange sable]

If you want to see a really good solo mage look up Skytea on Youtube

[eager creek]

I'll check him out, is he solo or squadded??

[strange sable]

solo

[eager creek]

Sheeesh

[ebon delta]

I never claimed that i am good at playing wizard, but i played them for over 40 hours last playtest and that wasn't enough to make me super op killer of everything death machine. I still managed to die to traps, swarm and npc... This makes it hard for me to agree with people that say that wizards by themself are strong and need nerfs

[eager creek]

Take yourself out of the equation and watch the best play wizard

[strange sable]

Wizard seems overpowered until you play him yourself

[lucid root]

you kind of have to play wizard like a rogue, especially solo. its counter intuitive because people say wizard is so strong and you assume you can go in and just blast everyone

[ebon delta]

That is so much true

[lusty wren]

Taking examples from one end of the spectrum probably not the best idea either

[eager creek]

Just cuz I can't swim fast doesn't mean Michael Phelps doesn't either lol

[vivid rover]

wizard is at its most powerful when you just start playing it. i cant count the number of times i blew up my melee party members and got easy free loot from them

[strange sable]

But of course the best players will make the class seem op

[lusty wren]

The best players that then cherry pick to make highlight reels will make all classes look OP

[agile condor]

I don't really think Wizards need any crazy nerfs - rather just see rogues get a stealth buff - good players are going to be good players regardless of their class

[strange sable]

Yeah

[eager creek]

There's a difference between looking op and actually being op.

High elo is all that matters, when the best are fighting the best.

[lusty wren]

But watching some of the "best" players youtubes that they cherry pick the best highlights and stitch them together is also not the way to judge

[eager creek]

Mage and ranger were the overtuned kits this playtest.

[plucky gyro]

I think the only nerf wizards need is to invis

[lusty wren]

The way to judge is by hard data that the devs will release as they did for playtest 2

[agile condor]

I mean, I went up against Katie, 1 shot her before she could speak a word of her evil sorcery

[eager creek]

Most the high roller leader boards have a mage in their team.

[strange sable]

I agree

[lucid root]

should we remove it, or just make it so it doesn't give you extra movespeed

[agile condor]

invis is strong, but you can listen for the footsteps

[minor pond]

The only change I think wizard needs is either a damage reduction or less projectiles on the "magic missile", But I think the projectile speed should increase like 2-5%

[lusty wren]

There is not a very wide variety of classes in groups of 3. When the data is released as they did for pt 2 we will have a much better understanding

[eager creek]

Mage, fighter/bard + whatever is meta. Haste and invisible is op.

[lusty wren]

I agree, haste and invisible should not stack

But that is really the only adjustment id make to wiz

then test further

[eager creek]

Op doesn't mean unbeatable

That adjustment is all it would take.

[lusty wren]

That combo I believe is 100% OP

[eager creek]

Ok we agree then lol.

[plucky gyro]

invis shouldn´t give speed. Maybe you shouldnt be able to run during it, only shift but that may be a ´bit much. Rogues should be able to move much more than they do now in stealth

[lucid root]

i'd tune chain lightning a bit too, mm and fireball you can at least play around

[eager creek]

It doesn't. They stack haste with invisible.

[lusty wren]

Invis also has a small bonus to move speed

[minor pond]

The counter to chain lighting is playing corners, They cant get far enough away without hitting themselves

[lusty wren]

which makes the stack even more egregious

[eager creek]

So ironic mage has a way better invisible skill then Rouge lol.

[lusty wren]

This is a huge issue imo. a wiz should never be able to become a straight up better version of a class

[eager creek]

Ah didn't know that. Don't play mage or Rouge.

[minor pond]

Theyre completely different though, One is for moving, the other is for staying still for a long period of time. Just use your ears against wizard and its really not that good

[lusty wren]

When they are moving mach 10 while invis its a problem 😄

[minor pond]

True but thats a haste problem :p

[lucid root]

invisibility potions were so damn good in solo

[lusty wren]

Its a wizard problem. Yes one easily fixed by not allowing them to stack

[eager creek]

Have you ever had an invisible bard rush you lol? Dead before I knew wtf happened my first time.

Barb*

[lusty wren]

Its the best way to play, cleric/wiz/barb the only thing that beats it is the same thing just getting their buffs off before you do

[minor pond]

Ahh yeah that too, Invis should only be self cast

[minor pond]

Its actually broken as hell when your in b3 boss room, Your team starts the portal open animation and then you make them invis, It lets them continue the animation invisible

[ebon delta]

You guys completely excluding solo wizards from conversation. Not that i disagree with any of your statements tho

[strange sable]

@thorn apex Why downvote this suggestion #d-and-d-suggestions message

[eager creek]

The meta is 3 man. Solo isn't a queue yet.

[lusty wren]

Solo wizard benefited to, because you could invis/haste in and then with ignite you can delete someone before their team can react, then you just invis/haste and walk away

[plucky gyro]

the top wizard in kills was a solo player

[eager creek]

If you CAN play a class solo the. It's busted. I.e wizard and ranger

Then*

[ebon delta]

You only speak about meta, huh?

[lusty wren]

A good player can solo with any class

[eager creek]

Not high rollers lol

[lusty wren]

My fave solo class was cleric

[eager creek]

In norms just have fun with whatever.

[lucid root]

i think i've just thought of my best suggestion yet

[thorn apex]

Always avoid nerfing, buff the other chars first. Otherwise you end up with a bunch of wet blanket characters.

This comes from working on class based PvP games for years in AAA

But I'm not that strongly tied to my opinion here, just my gut feel and my vote

[eager creek]

Nerfing is more effective than buffing if one character is outperforming the others

[strange sable]

Sure but nerfing a character is a lot easier than buffing all the others. I main the wizard so I don't like seeing him nerfed but the devs are seeing the response that the wizard is too strong so this would be a good middle ground

[eager creek]

I can think of countless fighting games where nerfing the best few characters made the rest of the roster viable.

[lusty wren]

Making these not stack is not even a nerf. Its broken as is. It puts them in line with the other classes is all

[thorn apex]

I just think nerfing shouldn't be the first thing to consider, I worded my message badly

[plucky gyro]

having to reapply haste everytime you invis would burn through your slots faster so you can be caught

[eager creek]

This is a Playtest, seeing what's overturned is what the devs need us for.

[thorn apex]

It could be the way to go, just don't think it should be right now, early days in development

[eager creek]

Invisible fast moving barbarian, a class that's supposed to be slow and clunky, is overturned.

[lusty wren]

I dont consider it a nerf

i consider it fixing the spells

its not op

its broken

there is a difference

[eager creek]

Well that's why there is multiple play tests. Pvp abusers used this strat to climb the ladder.

[strange sable]

@lucid root Your suggestion is cool but having to do an animation everytime you switch spells would be annoying

[lusty wren]

Its like having a bug that makes you unkillable. Taking that away isnt a nerf its a fix 😄

[thorn apex]

It's only a fix is the devs consider it a bug, it's very much your opinion that its a bug as far as I can see

[eager creek]

Rouge was op last playtest. Now he's balanced. Would like to see some quality of life changes for him like pickpocket stealth.

[lusty wren]

I compared it to a bug, didnt say it was one. I said its BROKEN. and you are right its a observation that the devs may not agree to. Though without them saying directly how would we know? We can ask them I suppose.

[thorn apex]

Did they nerf rogue since last one? I heard about the magic damage bug, anything else?

[lusty wren]

They made many adjustments to class power over the 3 playtests

Ranger was changed significantly for one

in the form of a nerf

barb was nerfed mid playtest 3

this is a thing they do

[strange sable]

Nerfing one character is so much better than buffing everything else IMO

[lusty wren]

I do not think the haste/invis interaction as is is as intended though.

[strange sable]

Buffing everything else is so inefficient

[lusty wren]

We will see though when they put out the stats

That will help us understand a bit more

[thorn apex]

Depends what stage of development the classes are in tbh

Maybe it's further along than I thought

[strange sable]

@nocturne mantle Why downvote this suggestion? #d-and-d-suggestions message

[lusty wren]

I mean its not a focus but they are doing certain tweaks

[thorn apex]

Is the general consensus that rogues are weak? I was a few suggestions about that

Saw*

[lusty wren]

They have made it very clear its not a focus at all right now.... But actions speak louder then words 😄 when you see balance changes mid playtest its obviously some where on the priority list lol

[strange sable]

Yes

[lucid root]

yeah kind of

[lusty wren]

I think base rogue dagger sucks but the class is fine

[thorn apex]

Weak for pvp specifically, or everything?

[plucky gyro]

how if the leaderboard was dominated by them lol

[strange sable]

pvp

[thorn apex]

I found rogue to be great, but wouldn't pick it for pvp focus

[lucid root]

they're pretty much useless against good players, its a good noob killer class though

[lusty wren]

Rogue is not weak, rogue base equipment is bad

[strange sable]

It's just that wizard is a better stealth class than the rogue

[lusty wren]

If rogue got anything it just needs better stealth capabilities

[plucky gyro]

what i understood is that they are very equipment reliant

[thorn apex]

Yeah the rogues stealth is lacking

[lusty wren]

base 10 steps while stealthed is a must

perk can add 10 more

but there needs to be a base 10 steps with hide

[strange sable]

That is one reason I made this suggestion, so the wizard wouldn't have better stealth than the rogue #d-and-d-suggestions message

[plucky gyro]

perk should shorten duration a lot and allow you to run in invis

[agile condor]

#d-and-d-suggestions message I believe the spell you're looking for here is possibly Levitate, which is actually a 3e spell for Wizards. But I still don't think it's a great idea - maybe something interesting for the bard? lol still assuming this is a troll suggestion, just helping you out a bit since I'm still seeing your posts.

[plucky gyro]

bascially a wizard invis maybe a bit longer

[lusty wren]

This could be interesting to test also

[thorn apex]

Maybe wizard just shouldn't have invisible spell, let the rogue do that instead 🤷‍♂️

[lusty wren]

Needs to be better than wiz invis. Wis invis is short as shit its only strong because haste stacks

[thorn apex]

How long is wiz invisible?

[lusty wren]

like 4 seconds

[strange sable]

4s

[lusty wren]

but with haste you can get VERY far in 4s

[plucky gyro]

like 4 sec without buffed stats

[lucid root]

i feel like if you're wearing cloth boots or something your footsteps should be pretty quiet o-O

[spice pawn]

if they remove invis from wiz, I hope they at least give short-distance blink hop spell as replacement or something (altho Wiz loses support ability with that)

[thorn apex]

Blink would be awesome replacement

[lusty wren]

wiz is still a strong buffer with haste/ignite

[agile condor]

Maybe they can stack with a perk investment? Generally players can only have 1 buff at a time, the perk would allow 2? lol

[spice pawn]

Short-distance blink would probably have an aiming reticle like Lightning (it'd be on the ground, showing you where you'ds how up)

[strange sable]

True that's a good idea

[lusty wren]

It would be a mandatory perk because the stacking of them is broken

just gives less build diversity

[agile condor]

Maybe? Don't know if I see them as mandatory

[strange sable]

#d-and-d-suggestions message: I like this idea but with less charges

[lusty wren]

WAY to many

[lucid root]

my very first heavily downvoted suggestion 😳

i feel honored

[agile condor]

I just think that's polish people don't care about atm lol

[lucid root]

pages...flipping, whats more important than that?

[lusty wren]

Could you imagine being mid combat trying to change spells and having to wait for an animation before you can cast?

That animation will get you killed so often

[brittle patrol]

idk why people dont like that lmfao. thats cool. like the BC cinamatic from wow opening a book and fliping pages and closes it to cast the spell

[agile condor]

I don't think the animation increases cast time

it's just an animation to the existing cast

[brittle patrol]

he said it would not change the cast time it would be exact same just look cooler

[lusty wren]

I mean you clearly have to wait for the animation to stop before castin

[lucid root]

o_O

[lusty wren]

YOu cant cast while doing an animation

[agile condor]

Ya lost me lol

[strange sable]

I mean casting could cancel the animation

[lusty wren]

There is an animation that plays when you cast. So either ya you have to cancel the one with the other or you just have to wait

[brittle patrol]

I think his suggestion is the while the cast bar loads up the pages move over so no timeing for the spell is changed its just an animation exactly along with the bar filling up right @lucid root ? or did u have something else in mind

[lusty wren]

THe bar filling up is while casting. There is a animation for that. So it either overides the book animation or you wait

[brittle patrol]

Yes it would be a book spesific animation i asume

[lucid root]

nothing to do with casting, its just when you're scrolling through the spell wheel the pages flip around

[lusty wren]

Why assume when the suggestion should clarify exactly what it is?

😄

[lucid root]

just a background prop kind of

[agile condor]

It did "wouldn't affect cast timing or anything as the pages would flip on their own"

[brittle patrol]

oh in that case, theyre right probably animation would be much longer than you able to scroll around. unless the pages go fast as you can move your mouse which would look silly i think

[agile condor]

Most people are in that spell wheel for .01 seconds lol

[lucid root]

just animation cancelling thats all. if you select another one before its done it just starts the next one, flipping the other direction

[lusty wren]

It takes a fraction of a second to change a spell. This animation would be longer then that id guess, Which means you have to wait before queueing another animation that is mandatory for the spell cast

[lucid root]

O_o

[brittle patrol]

yeah once you have spells and know where they are you're just opening and flicking your mouse not actually keeping it open, I like that idea though for just some backround cool look thing

[agile condor]

It works as a part of the cast time imo

without changing the actual cast time

[lusty wren]

If the animation cancels instantly its a non issue. But if its such a minor thing why waste dev time on it now?

[lucid root]

because i want the pages to flip god damnit!

[agile condor]

and we're back to my original comment

[brittle patrol]

yeah thats the real thing is, "is this worth dev time right now"

[agile condor]

Coulda saved alot time here

[strange sable]

@stiff imp & @graceful forum Why did you downvote this suggestion: #d-and-d-suggestions message

[wintry forge]

I only think about what could make the game better, and yet some people call me a troll and make fun of me for all of my down voted suggestions. This isn't a popularity contest.

[agile condor]

I mean, maybe they like Invis as it is

[lusty wren]

Alot of people also do not want their favorite class to be put in line 😄

[strange sable]

True but I feel like something has to be nerfed for the people complaining about wizard

[agile condor]

maybe blink makes the game faster paced than they like idk - I think there are reasons people can have without being called out 😄

[brittle patrol]

look at their class tag, i wonder why ? XD

[lusty wren]

Not saying that is their reasoning just an observation

[lucid root]

i think i made it misleading by saying "spell page" when its just randomly flipping around when you mess with the spell wheel. the pages are probably just nonsense writing that the devs draw up

i actually never zoomed in on the book to see what it says

[strange sable]

I hate seeing the wizard being nerfed because I myself am a wizard but I feel like something has to be nerfed to satisfy people and this feels like the best thing

[lusty wren]

My issue is literally how the animation would interact. For example right now casting and the casting animation are tied to eachother you cant do one without the other. So if that animation lasts any time longer then selecting the spell its slows the casting time of the next spell without actually making the casting time longer

[agile condor]

I don't care if wizards aren't nerfed and I don't play Wizard

[brittle patrol]

and with them being broken in so many ways, fireball/chain ignite on dagger haste/invis you get rid of one of those and say "are you not entertained wizard is bad now after this 1 change"

[lusty wren]

If the shoe dont fit dont wear it 😉

[stiff imp]

I don't think removing things is a good way to nerf. We don,t even know what's coming with new spell/skills/classes .. why trying to nerf everything every playtest... last one was ranger now wizard. We get it you don,t know how to play against things and then you want it nerfed to the core its ok. I dont think Invis + Haste is the problem but Ignite was

[brittle patrol]

i was 47 overall kills lmao, i understand how to play against it.

[brittle patrol]

but thank you for your hot take

[lucid root]

ohhh i see, yeah it would just cancel the page animation when you start a cast

[soft relic]

I mean there are some things that are so broken they need a nerf, regardless of what else is coming. Like ranger was.

[stiff imp]

wasnt personnal .. more like a overall thing... people want to nerf everytihng they don't get how to play againt

sorry i'm not ENG ..

[lusty wren]

I want wiz to retain its power for the most part. I think making the haste and invis not stack just puts them in line they are still VERY strong

The reason you make nerfs in between playtests is to do just that test. Its good for the game to test how classes react to these changes

Devs need that info

[brittle patrol]

I dont want anything removed on wizard, just scaled down ignite damage with daggers/ something about invis changed

[stiff imp]

still have time to invis and get behind in most case without haste and delete you in 2 dagger hit with that ignite power...

[brittle patrol]

I'm also in the camp of if something is over powered make other things as strong, dont take the top things down bring the lower things up

[lusty wren]

I think the 4 seconds is fair for invisibility. Just not when moving mach 10

[stiff imp]

Ignite was the porblem IMO thats why i thumb down yours thats it

[brittle patrol]

If everything is op nothing is op

[lusty wren]

I think when they made ignite not proc twice towards the end of the last PT it was fine for the most part scaled maybe a bit hard still but was in a much better place

[spice pawn]

pretty much all classes could be kitted to roughly 1-2 shot engagements

(cleric excepted, unless pre-casting + beer counts)

[brittle patrol]

I played 0 cleric, does beer help spell power ? i thought it was just phys power

[lusty wren]

Precasting and buffing 100% counts 😄

[stiff imp]

beer = strenght i believe so dmg + hp

[spice pawn]

I found it boring as hell, but if you use the drunkard cleric passive, you don't get drunk when you consume alcohol, so you just get the STR buff each time

[sonic pendant]

it raises strength, iirc, which also raises HP. coupled with divine strike, protection, and bless, your cleric becomes a melee god

for ike 15 secs

[spice pawn]

higher end alcohol was over +10 STR or something. I forget. it was just too boring

[brittle patrol]

ahh okay thank you

[stiff imp]

and takes 15 sec to buff yourself xD

[lusty wren]

nah you can buff very fast once you learn spell placements

[sonic pendant]

not with a spell book 🙂 they're the only way to cast.

[spice pawn]

you can also squeeze in higher tier protect pots (these STACK with cleric protection), but that window where everything is still active (assuming you ordered the buffs by duration correctly) will shrink a bit more

[stiff imp]

Ya ik, but still, 3 buff + beer chug + switch weapon.. not that fast

[lusty wren]

ya if you are not buying a base book and using a staff instead i dunno what to tell ya your doing it wrong 😄

[spice pawn]

pre-cast cleric is boring to me because if done correctly, it's always spotting someone or several people, U-turning to start pre-casting

they catch up to you, if they're overly aggressive, you get to wipe them out

[sonic pendant]

3 buffs in 4 secs with book. then beer. and you've got 15 secs of powa

[spice pawn]

you can also hear it- if you're not in a rush and a cleric does this, just play footsie for a little bit

[sonic pendant]

cleric dps gameplay is boring imo, i just know how it works. i'd rather be a pocket healer and make a barb invincible for 10 secs at a time

[soft relic]

I tended to find that with cleric, popping my 3 buffs and opening a door took so long that the buffs were almost half over by the time I actually engaged.

[lusty wren]

I like support cleric also, but its nice to be able to get down when needed

[spice pawn]

yea I find it super boring. I'd rather do half-assed damage while still largely playing support than doing that

[soft relic]

Support cleric just didn't feel effective for most groups tbh.

[sonic pendant]

that's why you run with a barb. opening doors is but a faint memory to a felling axe

[sonic pendant]

bad clerics.

[soft relic]

True. If you had a barb it was one thing. But once you got into upper gear levels, cleric buffs were irrelevant, as were heals.

[lusty wren]

Best comp in the game is wiz/cleric/barb

[lucid root]

triple bard team comp meta

[soft relic]

I mean if you run a certain comp, yeah. But people overestimated how much cleric mattered in all groups.

[sonic pendant]

wiz could swap with ranger, but yea. a good support wiz, certainly, but most wiz are too dps focused to be a good team comp

[spice pawn]

higher-end clerics in well coordinated groups (usually VoIP + familiar w/ each other) was sweaty to fight against -- those guys are the ones stacking protect pots + cleric buffs all day long

[proven schooner]

Cleric buffs a Barb up, one swing will do 80% of a fighter's hp

[ebon delta]

Triple rangers with traps in every door hell yeah

[lusty wren]

I am talking about organized 3 mans really

[spice pawn]

the protect stack also balloons their health at least +40

[soft relic]

I 3 shot a fighter in purple plate with cleric buffs and a protection pot. That didn't even give the cleric enough time to pop a heal.

Once your gear hits a certain point, cleric buffs did not affect the outcome of a fight.

[sonic pendant]

for sure, in a good team you're right. divine strike, ignite, bless, haste, and protection turn a barbarian into a fucking war god

[proven schooner]

Oh that was disgusting when I met a group like that, like a 2 minute hastle, then zone closed me out and I succumbed to either getting shot or taking the 50 traps in front of me apart haha

[soft relic]

They turned a 3 shot kill into... a 3 shot kill

[lusty wren]

Its very insane 😄

[soft relic]

Similarly, people died so fast, clerics didn't have time to heal during the fight.

That's why I'm saying support cleric was overrated. At medium/low gear? They were great

But once you fight someone with enough damage on their gear? Clerics became totally irrelevant

[wary flower]

Clerics shine at bossing and in normal lobbies. In HR a support cleric was good, but not that good.

[lusty wren]

I never had a issue to heal during fights. You guys are playing with bad clerics 😄

[spice pawn]

iono chain cast clerics make the difference during those pucker moments

[soft relic]

Try healing against someone that is 2 shotting your fighters

You don't have time

[lusty wren]

If you see a barb you precast and hold the heal, let them get hit once and then let go of your right click

[soft relic]

It's not just barbs

A geared rogue or ranger could 2 shot a fighter as well

[lusty wren]

You can do the same thing vs anything

[lucid root]

i'm surprised how good people got after only like 3 days, kind of scary to think what kind of tricks we'll be doing after a year

[lusty wren]

if you get good and can foresee dmg you cast early

[soft relic]

Maybe it was just because I was a rogue, but clerics never had a chance to heal if I decided to burst someone.

[proven schooner]

Geared rogue would stab you 15 times in 2 seconds

[lusty wren]

Did you let them know you were gonna engage so they could precast?

[soft relic]

Geared rogue never needed to stab more than 3x against anything, including a buffed up barb

[proven schooner]

Bleed + Poison and its a wrap for whoever attacks you

[wary flower]

well, shield - heal - shield - heal can sustain that damage, but usually there's more than 1 person hitting your frontliner u.u

[soft relic]

Generally no

[spice pawn]

that's why I'm hoping they'll layer on more gameplay mechanics. situational complexity can keep the game going for longer (if they're going to stick with simpler controls)

[lusty wren]

Welp there is your problem. You have to be able to anticipate the dmg and precast

Helps if team mates call out what they are doing a bit

[soft relic]

I could see that working.

[lusty wren]

That is how I played cleric and i never had an issue saving people from two shots

[soft relic]

It just generally seemed more effective to me to have 3 people dealing damage, rather than 2 dealing damage and one hanging back as a buff bot

Damage = survivability

[lusty wren]

If that barb is one shotting folks you dont need to do dmg

[spice pawn]

yea the coordinated 3-mans is what's ultimately going to be the later-game contenders. that's generally what folks are talking about

[lusty wren]

its hasted also on top of it in my teams

[proven schooner]

Which is why casual players disappearing would kill the game, assisting new players is a must if we don't want this game to turn into a blood-thirsty try-hards only shitfest like others in the genre

[soft relic]

Being honest, the wizard buffs probably mattered more than having a cleric for the barb

[silk garden]

then there should be some kind of mmr

[soft relic]

Wizard buffs > cleric buffs by far when gear gets involved

[proven schooner]

No MMR is what makes this game fun tbf

[spice pawn]

MMR flattens games into the games we're all ignoring right this minute

[lusty wren]

They matter alot, but having a heal bot so you can recklessly charge and not worry about taking hits is HUGE

[silk garden]

then u will have obese 140kg neckbeards hunting weekend players which will leave after 2 days

its this or this

[soft relic]

That's fair. I'd have to see it I guess, I didn't run into a lot of good barbs with cleric + wizard support

[spice pawn]

pocket healers also help boost a lot of newbies past the initial leaning curve stage

[proven schooner]

Nothing is better than a beginner leading a group of 3 people into a room of multiple monsters only for all 4 to die, fun as fuck ahah

[lusty wren]

Its not this or this, that is a fallacy best not used in debate

[spice pawn]

(think more tightly packed repetitions, as opposed to trying to learn Tarkov nowadays, where if you screw up you might have to wait 20-30 minutes before another attempt)

[proven schooner]

What I loved about the game is the intuition stuff, actually using the dark to attack, using monsters to kill others

[spice pawn]

yea it's highly immersive. feels real. even the traps, although people don't like them, behave like traps instead of "spells" that vanish

[lusty wren]

This was my groups primary comp. And what we noticed the only thing that could beat us was the same comp but their barb got buffed and charged first 😄

With the occasional wiz getting popped by a rogue randomly 😄

[proven schooner]

Which is why I suggested a tutorial room, so you don't have to wait 3 minutes between each skeleton encounter, but being able to try it with a 3-4 second respawn timer, but it got a 50/50 because apparently having people quick is better

[ebon delta]

That being said, i wouldn't mind if there is some traps that can be triggered only once

[proven schooner]

Let's be fair, the game is fun, but the player base will die out in 3-4 months when people start becoming too good, and the new players will start like we did on the play tests

[soft relic]

Haha. I could see it working in that case. I still question if cleric is as important as people think in less specialized comps, rather than just having more dps.

[proven schooner]

and when the player base is low, finding games will be a long hassle, and dying in the first 10 seconds will surely make everyone quit if they can't practice against the mobs

[proven schooner]

Wizard looting in the back, Barbarian sneaks up and swings twice to him dying haha

[lucid root]

i give it like 2 years tops before its only the best players left

[lusty wren]

Ya, i am mainly talking about top of the foodchain type comps :D. In more casual / non optimized comps a cleric is not mandatory at all imo

[spice pawn]

still, there'll be a sense of progress with the seasonal wipes

[lusty wren]

There is always an exception to the rule when speaking generally. But this rarely happened compared to how often we just cleared the lobbies

[proven schooner]

Not saying it happens all the time, but it is so funny when it happens

[lusty wren]

Ya, the wizard is always the one that it happens to in that situation too 😄

our wiz in our group is also the biggest loot whore

[lucid root]

i think a lot of streamers are going to start maining this game, or at least make it one of their regulars. that'll help a lot with longevity

[lusty wren]

As long as content keeps rolling and they maintain a GOOD game it will be fine

[proven schooner]

The seasonal wipes is a must, people hoarding the best items without a wipe will make the beginner to intermediate gap huge

[proven schooner]

Streamers is what will keep this game on, legendary people that do the first solo, like Woox in OSRS and people recording it, huge PvP players destroying groups 1v3 so soloing is not hopeless 5-6 months into the game is what will keep this alive

[lucid root]

why wipe when you could use a bidet 😏

[proven schooner]

Seasonal bidet

[lusty wren]

I like seasons and would prefer they last the same as PoE 13 weeks

[proven schooner]

Will the game be f2p on launch? Hackers will murder this game if it is

[spice pawn]

Content updates (even titanic shifts in new gameplay mechanics) will mesh incredibly well with the fact that seasonal wipes are likely expected. To me, it means there's plenty of room for this game going forward

[lusty wren]

No devs stated they dont want F2P

[lucid root]

yeah i think so, and major content drops like how PoE comes out with one big content update every so often

[proven schooner]

20-30 Euros is reasonable right?

[lusty wren]

Yeah that is why I want them to be 13 weeks apart so every season can have a nice update

[proven schooner]

around the 30 euro mark is where hackers don't bother to cheat

[lusty wren]

Id be happy at 40 usd

[spice pawn]

I'm already at 130 hours not including Discord spam "play" time... so whatever the rate, I've already got my money's worth

[lucid root]

i'm hoping its like 40 bucks, then goes on steam sales

[lusty wren]

@wintry forge How would we debate with the poster then? This has value as seen just recently, people manage to change others minds by having a constructive conversation about it.

[lucid root]

the only time chivalry would get new players was steam sales 👀

[spice pawn]

I didn't know Chivalry 2 had such a bad start -- apparently the all-time high was only ~16k

Mordhau started over 60k

[lusty wren]

I think 40 for base game. But id buy a collectors edition for more if it came with some goodies and the base game (goodies meaning REAL shit not in game shit. Like shirt, beanie, fucking coaster whatever.)

[lucid root]

the first chivalry seemed like it exploded at the start and died down pretty fast

[proven schooner]

Chivalry being on the game pass is what keeps it alive on PC

[spice pawn]

Chivalry's skill ceiling caps the sweat, but makes it feel like a single-player game you can beat (despite it being multiplayer)

[proven schooner]

First chivalry was a fucking blast at the start, then the average skill ceiling became people bug-blocking and crouch spine breaking with pin-perfect parries

[spice pawn]

I feel the same way with Dark & Darker, actually, but the classes are sufficiently distinct such that the time it takes for me to mentally beat DnD (at least the last 2 playtest) is multiple times longer, though

[lusty wren]

DaD is alot simpler. the gap is not as large as in those games for skill. So noobs wont be as intimidated imo

[wintry forge]

You could still ask questions, but you wouldn't know who you were discussing with.

[lucid root]

i'm so sucked into wizard, i should really learn the other classes

[spice pawn]

yea seems like it's a lot more about strategic positioning than tactical response time

[lusty wren]

Asking random people questions is useless. I want to ask the poster questions to gain a better understanding of their suggestion. Which in turn can change minds as was seen earlier

[proven schooner]

How often did you die to a Barb/Fighter corner camping outside your door?

[lusty wren]

Never

[lucid root]

a good amount of times, i would just quit the match before they opened the door lol

[proven schooner]

In solo as a wizard, I died too many times to corner camping

[spice pawn]

that's just ambushing cause they heard you

[lusty wren]

Corner camping in general or outside the spawn door? I was assuming you meant spawn door 😄

[proven schooner]

In general, while looting or something

[lusty wren]

ah ya its happened

[proven schooner]

Yeah, I died more times to ambushing than face to face fights as a wizard

[wintry forge]

Maybe you could ping the poster with the message link? I don't know. I'm not a Discord expert.

[spice pawn]

Wizard is dynamic -- face to face gives them too much time to control the spacing

[lucid root]

there was one spawn that had the lever that opens the stone wall into a crouch shortcut, pretty much leads you right to the other spawn

[lusty wren]

If I can ping the poster its no longer anonymous

[spice pawn]

Barbs are corner demons, if not invis monsters. anywhere else and they're in a weaker spot

[strange sable]

@wintry forge Do you think your suggestions get downvoted just because you are the one suggesting them, because they don't.

[proven schooner]

It is crazy how much your win-rate increases in fights when its open vs closed space as a wizard ahah, from like 10% to survival to 70% in an open space

[sonic pendant]

very much this.

[spice pawn]

fireball knockback threat alone can counter a lot of things

[lucid root]

my instinct is to kite while being chased, i forget that i can just stop and magic missile and kill them before they kill me 😐

[wintry forge]

Suggestion history would suggest otherwise, because there have been suggestions I made, such as push kick, which got down voted, but afterwards someone else suggested the same thing and it got up voted.

[lusty wren]

I think some have done so admittedly. Though I think its mainly due to just so many 0 effort suggestions can wear on someone... BUT anonymous suggestions has far more cons than pros

[proven schooner]

I thought fighter all-weapon perk just removed ranger, then I remembered ranger has triple shot and traps which are literally too broken *edit: Rogue -> Ranger

[lusty wren]

rogue you mean ranger right? 😄

[proven schooner]

Whoops, yeah I meant ranger

[lucid root]

so magic missile is kind of an orb projectile right? and it has a decent'ish size hitbox, what if you changed it to more of you know...a missile. like a spike

easier to strafe and dodge

[strange sable]

Magic missile is already hard to aim

[lusty wren]

Its already pretty much the easiest thing to dodge the only thing easier to dodge is an unbuffed barb 😄

[strange sable]

Unless you are super close range

[lucid root]

not at close range though

[proven schooner]

Oh man I love the barbs that wore all the heavy armor they could and move at slug speed

[lusty wren]

WTH this dang languag bot is deleting all my msgs.... Bu tt is not allowed?

[lucid root]

even at long range you can do a spread shot, moving it side to side and get some good hits

[lusty wren]

i can say fuck

but not bu tt

WTF

[proven schooner]

oh shee, yeah you cant lol

[plucky gyro]

guys what about making spell number of uses start with less but scale with knowledge or other stat

so start with 3 fireballs 2 invis 3 hastes

[lucid root]

oh god more stat scaling o_o

[plucky gyro]

les heal in cleric

[lusty wren]

Nah hate that change no offense

[plucky gyro]

too item dependant?

[lusty wren]

yes

[lucid root]

make it scale really poorly lol

[glacial bridge]

bսtt

[proven schooner]

When real-life trading gets into the game, oh man...

Stat dependant things will destroy everything

[glacial bridge]

that looks pretty close for some filter evasion. PLS DONT BAN ME IM SORRY

[lucid root]

when people make bot teams so they don't have to find groups

[winged venture]

i like the magic system but i feel like a mana system would be cool too

[proven schooner]

Hah.

[lusty wren]

wait how did you do that? 😄

[proven schooner]

The magic system is an inspiration from Dungeons & Dragons as far as I am aware, I think it is going to stay like that

[spice pawn]

I actually like the convenient of numerical spell count. it's easier to track than doing 1 layer of napkin math

[strange sable]

How to play wizard 🤣 : https://youtu.be/yuC4cCfySlc

[winged venture]

it is i just like the idea of balancing mana instead of running out of one spell and not another