move this convo here so that #off-topic doesn't get cluttered
#ai art vs deblack
abstract geyser
grand thorn
alright cool
onyx radish
eyy nice chat
grand thorn
So before we continue I'd just like to say I wanna keep it civil
wide cairn
Sa
abstract geyser
I've seen photos in art galleries all over
onyx radish
So before we continue I'd just like to say I wanna keep it civil
same here don't worry
abstract geyser
Yeah
onyx radish
I will explain my reasoning
abstract geyser
(Also no slow mode here)
grand thorn
And I have nothing against anybody, nor do I think AI art is inferior, I just think we need to seperate definitions to fit translation
final walrus
I don't think AI art is the same as human art... yet
It's no different from a printer, they're both just following set of instructions, although I do believe AI could reach a point where it can start thinking for itself
grand thorn
This particular discussion was about whether you can use the word "art" to refer to ai art and artists
onyx radish
first, you have said that art is exclusively human trait ok that is first proposition. Then you said there is no factual definition of art ok that is the second proposition
abstract geyser
Yep
onyx radish
later you have tol that what AI producing is not art
grand thorn
first, you have said that art is exclusively human trait ok that is first propos...
Actually I said there was no factual definition first
because there is not
onyx radish
abstract geyser
Then how is ai art not real art if there is no factual definition?
grand thorn
by factual I don't mean objective like the dictionary, I mean that dictionary definitions all can change
onyx radish
first mentioning it is a human trait
grand thorn
like , science is fact
final walrus
I think there's a requirement to create art, which is creativity
Is AI creative?
grand thorn
first mentioning it is a human trait
I mean it's in the same sentence, either way doesn't matter on the order.
onyx radish
I think there's a requirement to create art, which is creativity
Is AI creative?
Is human creative tho
final walrus
Aren't we?
grand thorn
like , science is fact
science only changes if it was wrong before
onyx radish
I mean it's in the same sentence, either way doesn't matter on the order.
so we can take them as different propositions?
either way I can prove it
as one proposition or as seperate
your choice
grand thorn
You seem to think both statements contradict each other, but they do not
onyx radish
ok let me prove it, if my proof is wrong then no problem
abstract geyser
I think there's a requirement to create art, which is creativity
Is AI creative?
This argument suggests that AI-generated art is simply a copy of existing art, or that it lacks the uniqueness and individuality that defines true art. However, this is not necessarily the case. While it is true that AI algorithms are trained on existing data, they can still produce new and original output. For example, an AI trained on a dataset of paintings might generate a new image that incorporates elements of various paintings in the dataset, but rearranges them in a way that has never been seen before. In this sense, AI-generated art can be seen as a new and original form of expression, rather than a simple copy of existing art.
grand thorn
I'm saying that the largely accepted definition for most of time, including right now is that art is exclusively human
Notice how I never said this is factual, since definitions that aren't based in science, math or something that is rigid and does not change cannot be factual.
final walrus
This argument suggests that AI-generated art is simply a copy of existing art, o...
Yes, that's true, but AI can't come up with something new, it's impossible for AI to create something that it can't find anywhere on the web, humans can create things they've never seen thanks to their creativity
grand thorn
Because if for example someone convinced everyone that AI art is art, and everyone believed it and accepted it, then the definition would change. My argument is that I disagree with the need to push towards that direction, because I believe we must keep art defined as a human trait, and make a new term for AI art to seperate both of them.
abstract geyser
Yes, that's true, but AI can't come up with something new, it's impossible for A...
Why don't you come up with something that has never been thought of before, and you aren't allowed to just combine ideas. See, not so easy is it?
onyx radish
I completely agree that you have not defined it as rigid but subjective ideas are open to be objectified within themselves
grand thorn
So we're already calling AI produced art as "AI art" and artists who utilise AI as "AI artists"
So we're doing the same thing either ways, what I was advocating for is to use another word altogether
onyx radish
I completely agree that you have not defined it as rigid but subjective ideas ar...
In this case you have proposed a subjective idea
grand thorn
I completely agree that you have not defined it as rigid but subjective ideas ar...
Please elaborate on the meaning of this sentence
onyx radish
However it has to be not contradictory if that set of subjective idea is examined
grand thorn
In this case you have proposed a subjective idea
Most of language can be technically be subjective but we have to stick to the most used definition so that language has meaning
onyx radish
Subjective ideas and the group it is in has to be logically sound
abstract geyser
So we're already calling AI produced art as "AI art" and artists who utilise AI ...
Art and ai art should be kept separate, but it should still be considered art (my opinion)
grand thorn
Art and ai art should be kept separate, but it should still be considered art (m...
That's where we disagree basically
because I think the connotations that the word "art" give simply can't be ignored by propping ai in front of it
AI art is derivative of the idea of art, but it isn't art.
onyx radish
how can its derivative not be it?
grand thorn
how can its derivative not be it?
Same way humans aren't monkeys
onyx radish
it still is based on that very same idea and principle so it has its elements
abstract geyser
because I think the connotations that the word "art" give simply can't be ignore...
The word racism connotations can't be ignored by propping "anti" in front of it?
onyx radish
Same way humans aren't monkeys
we are, we share some same elements
we come from the same thing
abstract geyser
we come from the same thing
Fish
onyx radish
what you say is just a nominalist approach
you are approaching it from its outside perspective and definitive naming
however the ideas behind are still the same
grand thorn
we come from the same thing
so why did we make new terms? Couldn't we call every organism 'life' or something?
onyx radish
because it is much more practical for humans
final walrus
Why don't you come up with something that has never been thought of before, and ...
Because I'm not a creative person, and yes it isn't easy, my whole point was that creativity is so hard that AI can't grasp it, not as it is now
But there's all kinds of things in the world like cars or even phones and computers that someone's creativity came up with the design and it became standard, if we went back a few hundred years, there's a chance the devices we use now would have a completely different shape and design
abstract geyser
so why did we make new terms? Couldn't we call every organism 'life' or somethin...
But then there is no difference between them
onyx radish
that is why nominalism is used
humans in nature have to improve for their practical interests
but that does not mean those are not the same thing
just like physics
abstract geyser
Because I'm not a creative person, and yes it isn't easy, my whole point was tha...
Ai can make inventions though.
onyx radish
there is a grand unification
but also small parts of it that are called different
however they are the same in nature
grand thorn
The word racism connotations can't be ignored by propping "anti" in front of it?
when you say anti racism, it's about going agains't racism which means it fits the word since it is related to fighting racism
But if I call the act of drawing " anti racist" because it isn't racist, then you see what I mean ( It seems ridiculous but think about the idea not the literal meaning)
final walrus
Ai can make inventions though.
What kind of invention? Has AI invented something never seen before?
Or was it just following a set of instructions like a factory machine would?
abstract geyser
when you say anti racism, it's about going agains't racism which means it fits t...
I am literal though
onyx radish
What kind of invention? Has AI invented something never seen before?
Or was it j...
there is an actual project for that
grand thorn
I am literal though
its an analogy don't take it literally
abstract geyser
What kind of invention? Has AI invented something never seen before?
Or was it j...
It had created the concept, but not actually been able to make it due to limitations
onyx radish
in some university in uk, mathematicians are training an AI to make mathematical proof
from inductive reasoning, it can be concluded that this new AI will have the ability to come up with new proofs
grand thorn
there is a grand unification
I see what you're saying but if humans and monkeys come from the same thing , why do we use seperate terms?
final walrus
I believe at some point in the future AI will be able to do all sorts of things humans can't, but it's way too early for it to invent and create
grand thorn
Why don't we call monkeys "primal humans" or something like that?
onyx radish
I see what you're saying but if humans and monkeys come from the same thing , wh...
as I have said, it is just human practicality
abstract geyser
I see what you're saying but if humans and monkeys come from the same thing , wh...
Evolution
onyx radish
also our norms come into play
abstract geyser
Why don't we call monkeys "primal humans" or something like that?
Why don't we call cars "moving boxes"?
onyx radish
we used to call it the way we did so we went on with it even after knowing the truth
final walrus
So the topic is now evolution
abstract geyser
Lmao
onyx radish
So the topic is now evolution
not really it is about nominalism
grand thorn
as I have said, it is just human practicality
All definitions apply to only the purpose of human language, so why wouldn't we apply the same logic for ai art and art?
onyx radish
they just used an anology
onyx radish
All definitions apply to only the purpose of human language, so why wouldn't we ...
because
what we are discuyssing right now is in philosophical terms
and we try to approach truth
grand thorn
No we're not
final walrus
I see
grand thorn
I am talking about literally language
onyx radish
you can't approach truth in pragmatism
grand thorn
And I have nothing against anybody, nor do I think AI art is inferior, I just th...
to fit translation ^^
onyx radish
so this question is about if the thing created by ai is the same in terms of its elements as the art by humans
grand thorn
it was all about definitions
onyx radish
if we are defining something new, isn't it best to base it on truth?
grand thorn
so this question is about if the thing created by ai is the same in terms of its...
to not use "art" for ai art because the processes are too different to accompany the same definition
onyx radish
to not use "art" for ai art because the processes are too different to accompany...
that is a whole different discussion
if we are in aim of defining something new and naming it
we should approach it unpragmatically
final walrus
Although I agree it's not really art at this stage of AI, I don't think the name will change, AI art sounds too catchy
grand thorn
if we are defining something new, isn't it best to base it on truth?
But like we said, this is entirely subjective, the "truth" is just what most people accept to be that, since these definitions cannot exactly be considered objective facts
grand thorn
that is a whole different discussion
that's the one you should've been arguing against because that was what I disagreed against.
onyx radish
If we define a truth within ourselves then it is fine
you can't always redefine truth
just making it right at the time is good enough if you are not doing math and phys or natural sciences
or philosophy
grand thorn
If we define a truth within ourselves then it is fine
again, there is no "truth" here
It's subjective
onyx radish
but we can reach a consensus that is defined as truth
grand thorn
just making it right at the time is good enough if you are not doing math and ph...
Exactly what I meant by it can't be factual
onyx radish
truth is only the consensus
absolute truth is inreachable
but we can make it consensus
and define the result as truth
grand thorn
From what I've seen, most people I know do not consider AI as art, hence by your definition it isn't the truth
onyx radish
yes but we can discuss it and neglect an opinion
that is how reaching an end result works
can't include every idea
grand thorn
yes but we can discuss it and neglect an opinion
What do you mean by this?
onyx radish
you said that some people say this and that hence it is by my definition not truth right?
grand thorn
I am not requesting for a systematic change in definitions, since that will not happen and is impractical unless the ai art community embraces it themselves.
What I'm saying is, that from an outside perspective, and from what most people believe, AI art can't be considered art ( in it's most widely accepted definitions)
final walrus
Well there's things that are absolute truth, H2O is water and always will be, no matter if we change the names of "water" to something else or "hydrogen" and "oxygen"
grand thorn
Well there's things that are absolute truth, H2O is water and always will be, no...
Yeah, that is what I am saying
onyx radish
Well there's things that are absolute truth, H2O is water and always will be, no...
dont even get me started on paradigm shifts in natural sciences oh boy that is a deep one
grand thorn
Language has to be accepted as the most used definition because if we don't do that, there is no purpose to language
onyx radish
can you elaborate please I did not really get it?
grand thorn
let me give you an example, my brother goes to MICA, he met this student who makes "art", when you call yourself an artist, especially in an art uni, its generally accepted that you do some sort of handiwork or create something, but no. He makes reels on instagram of him doing backflips into swimming pools and reverses it, now you tell me , if it makes sense to call that art
grand thorn
that is my whole point
then what were we arguing against
onyx radish
however in nature it might be art
final walrus
When you realise you've been on the same team all along
grand thorn
however in nature it might be art
This is what Im sayin, you're being contradictory here
there is no truth, its completely dependent on majority belief
there is no in its "nature"
that is your own personal belief
onyx radish
no? right from the get go I was basing my idea on several ideas having the same element
thus, what that guy does can be art
if it has the same element
final walrus
If 95% of people on Earth suddenly started saying water is pink, would that be true?
final walrus
xD
onyx radish
there is no truth, its completely dependent on majority belief
yeah that is an argument against this
grand thorn
yeah that is an argument against this
but why?
final walrus
Not against, it's kinda for
grand thorn
If 95% of people on Earth suddenly started saying water is pink, would that be t...
because that contradicts a fact
there is no fact as art
art is just pure language
onyx radish
dude it is all messed up already
grand thorn
like art is just a term made and used by humans
onyx radish
can't really follow here who is saying what against what
final walrus
Yes, I have seen a toilet displayed on an art gallery, so at that point, what can't be art
grand thorn
can't really follow here who is saying what against what
I think you are confused because you didn't understand my original statement
grand thorn
Yes, I have seen a toilet displayed on an art gallery, so at that point, what ca...
That's what I'm saying, things like that happen when we accept lose definitions
onyx radish
it maybe because I just saw your thing about art being human thing and saw a contradiction don't have context about before
grand thorn
Look at music, in music there are no confusions on what is music and what is not
onyx radish
Yes, I have seen a toilet displayed on an art gallery, so at that point, what ca...
I am ok with that honestly
final walrus
Is rap music?
onyx radish
yeah?
grand thorn
but for art because of how loosely it has been used, it has become this weird thing where you can call anything art
grand thorn
Is rap music?
yes
final walrus
I'm kidding 😂
grand thorn
ik lol
onyx radish
I just thought for a second you are a boomer lol
final walrus
Lmao nah, I'm 22
onyx radish
I'm 18 senior hs
onyx radish
wait we are all too young and discussing this
didn't you guys ever think that you are losing out on something by discussing these stuff
final walrus
It's refreshing to debate ideas
onyx radish
tbh I did ever since 9th grade
grand thorn
wait we are all too young and discussing this
What's wrong with discussing while we're young
grand thorn
didn't you guys ever think that you are losing out on something by discussing th...
Not really because I'm doing something productive on the side
onyx radish
I agree but the things I generally discuss and debate are highly philosophical
final walrus
Yes, sometimes it feels pointless, depends on the topic and people
grand thorn
Yes, sometimes it feels pointless, depends on the topic and people
True
onyx radish
I dont mean by pointless
final walrus
Philosophy can be so incredibly pointless, but at the same time very fascinating
onyx radish
what I mean is maybe we are not living our life to the fullest?
onyx radish
Philosophy can be so incredibly pointless, but at the same time very fascinating
I just do it to find the truth
grand thorn
I agree but the things I generally discuss and debate are highly philosophical
I don't like debating philosophy because most of the time there's no structure because it's highly based on opinions with a lack of facts
final walrus
Well, what is living life to the fullest?
onyx radish
I don't like debating philosophy because most of the time there's no structure b...
not really
if debating philosophy with your friend you do it like plato did
you can rule out illogical statements in someones philosophy
thus perfecting theirs and improving your abilities
grand thorn
Honestly I have read a little bit of philosophy, only 2 books, both on stoicism
onyx radish
Well, what is living life to the fullest?
I know that there is no final definition but maybe if there is no definition it is the best to experience the norm?
final walrus
I don't drink/do drugs or go to parties, seems most people our age are doing those things all the time, I've tried that life(not drugs, just drinking and partying) and it's not for me, what I want is to start a family asap, that would be my definition of living life to the fullest
onyx radish
Yes that is what I think certain times too
I want to dedicate my whole life on theoretical physics and mathematics
grand thorn
I really like stoicism, I wouldn't call myself a stoic simply because I haven't implemented everything, or spent time practically practicing that
onyx radish
however, how do you know that it is the best for you?
grand thorn
but I am definitely trying to apply stoicism principles into my life
onyx radish
maybe you are just in a local maxima and not absolute maxima
grand thorn
also i think we need to move this into the regular chat or another thread cuz its no longer related to ai art
onyx radish
yeah
grand thorn
Ill do that just wait a second
final walrus
Can't know till you try it, that's the thing about being young I guess, you can experiment a bunch and still change paths relatively easy
brazen shadow
Hello I'm from india