pvp-arena

[true tiger]

SR15 ? the doll ?

[tropic summit]

ye i re-ordered them now in terms of efficiency on def, arguably 1 team vestiTU, 1 SWHA, the 3rd should've gimmick oriented teams

[true tiger]

already have both 4ol SBS10/10/10 and blanc 7/7/7

[tropic summit]

you won't be bursting on T3, in fact it's best vesti is in a safe spot (p4 or p5 is fine)

since she still deals decent DPS pre burst, she's ok there

[eager mountain]

almost everything feels like gimmick in def

[tropic summit]

ye doll R15 or SR5 is a good stopping point for most utilities

do not jump straight to SR0

[true tiger]

yeah I know that

[tropic summit]

good then you could run an indom down the line

especially with vestiTU and SWHA

[true tiger]

should I swap noah for blanc on T2 then ?

and maybe use noah on t3

[tropic summit]

here's 2 skeletons setups you can mess with

assume noir for a clip SG burst gen tier unit, centi for generic clip RL unit, jackal p1 to give you siren resistance

p2 will be your main indom unit

vestiTU is assumed 4-8%CS, so if she isn't make sure she gets there

[true tiger]

ok, mine currently got 0 CS lmao

[tropic summit]

keep in mind always this rule to build indom:

• your indom target needs to be lowest HP in the link
• you need to be at least 91% to 2RL, try to not be slower than that (natural 2RL is generally a waste because you get always some feed)

you can always check your linked targets via shooting range / campaign, just run that team, enter pause upon starting, check buffs

for burst gen, prefer any of these (best from top to bottom)

whenever possible avoid using burst gen / flex that are not RL/SR units, as they will feed enemy jackals

especially SGs should be reduced to the minimun, if not even running any at all

[true tiger]

ok

[true tiger]

I went for this as attack comp

[tropic summit]

T1
unprotected noah, especially without heavy invest, won't generally live to 2RL, consider running her with biscuit and add a better B1 that synergizes with cindy (noise would be ideal)

T2
hmm you can run even just 2 teams, get SWHA or vestiTU instead of SBS and noir and run the indom with them, lowest HP as indom target in p2 between them

if you going for triple win, this setup is actually decent, but stronger opponents you'll want to commit to their 2 weakest teams

[true tiger]

does it still work if T1 is 3rl ?

[eager mountain]

atk depends on enemy comp so

[true tiger]

nuke against nuke and T2 against weakest comp ?

then 3rd kinda filler

[eager mountain]

invested unprotected 2rl noah is generally safe to attack unless u put her against vesti for whatever reason, at least for high sync

[tropic summit]

with the units i see you've, i'd collapse into these 2 generic purpose teams

T1 is very dynamic, you can sub and rotate SWHA for anything you situationally need, siren can be subbed for burst gen if you don't need stun
T2 very simple indom, will take care of mostly anything that does not have ultra stall or rosanna

[true tiger]

btw my vesti got no OL, R5 and 4/7/7

[tropic summit]

SBS can be your flex unit, contributes meager burst gen but i bet you get a ton of CP with her

[true tiger]

yeah, she's like 101K

[tropic summit]

ok then indom can be SWHA instead, vesti can be flex in T1

you used laplace treasure earlier, if you've her this is also an option

alternatively with vestiTU once she's 4-8%CS

[true tiger]

yeah, I'll go with that and swap laplace once I get at least 4%cs

how's the 3rd team ?

[tropic summit]

as spare it will do

this is another team you may need situationally on attack if you need 2 teams with p1 being unkillable early

vestiTU can be any situational main B3 (liberalio, cindy and the likes), SWHA can be a clip RL or helmt, p5 can be any mag RL or B1 buffer

[true tiger]

agasint what kind of team ?

[tropic summit]

say you dealing with a strong campaign team that you're on deficit against, but they don't have damage beside p1 and p2, this team will still shread it

liberalio and vestiTU are units that excel at still letting you win past 15.4% deficit and up to even 24-28% deficit

you will at some point face whales that will push you in deficit:

after 15.4%, you'll start getting your stats penalized

[true tiger]

damn 90% stat penalty

[tropic summit]

ye consider anything past 20% deficit generally hard to win

you'll need to use noah biscuit archetypes or nayuta with anti deficit nukers

jackal linked units can also mitigate deficit up to 20-22%

anything past 24% tho gets situationally hard to win against

especially if enemy is running meta comps instead of padded teams

[true tiger]

I see

what are the counter to indom team ?

[tropic summit]

depends on the indom type, the linked units and their speed

for the most part, most indoms are weak to rosanna

rosanna breaks enemy jackal link at 1RL, unlinking units making them vulnerable

additionally she will target 2 attackers, from left to right, and try to assassinate them

[true tiger]

ok, I note, avoid rosanna on T2

[tropic summit]

a well built rosanna, assuming opponent isn't full HP, will likely 1hitko both attackers

[tropic summit]

to give you an idea to what happens to attackers

see jackal is reduced to near 0 hp, both water codes are instantly removed

[true tiger]

one shot ???

[tropic summit]

yes, that's the threat she can bring

being B1 on 2RL means she's faster than bay, noah and blanc, that's vital

enemy can try mitigate this by running moran and noise B1 with a fast team

[true tiger]

is that normal or summer rosanna ?

[tropic summit]

normal ros

she needs good invest to be used although

7/10/10, SR5, 20atk% is minimal invest to be barely usable
7/10/10, SR15, 40%ATK, 40% ele is generally lethal in most situations

[true tiger]

yeah, nvm, I'be never used her xD

[tropic summit]

you can build her waaaaay later down the road

[true tiger]

I mainly got PVE unit built

[tropic summit]

ye that's fine

at your synchro especially anyway

try to get her done by synchro 350-400 though

[true tiger]

look at the top CP unit x))

all pve unit

[tropic summit]

siren, cindy, helmt, rrh, rh, miranda, blanc, nayuta, lib, biscuit, midhara, manchor, laplaceT, noise, pepper, centi, noir, xmaiden, jackal, noah, swha

still quite a few pvp usable units at least

should try bringing in rumani, trina, centi in the higher slots too asap

[true tiger]

I tried to OL all my pvp unit too but I'm out of rocks and gears to sacrifice

[true tiger]

no rumani unfortunatly

[tropic summit]

ye a common struggle

[true tiger]

yeah I'm working on SWHA rn, then I'll do centi and trina

[tropic summit]

get your 2 pvp core teams built, rest can go slowly

[true tiger]

got her to 10/10/10 SR15 already

need 2 more ol

[true tiger]

maybe vesti first then

[quick lake]

Dont brick PvE for PvP

[true tiger]

[quick lake]

like Rosy

[true tiger]

I'm hard stuck in campagn anyway

[quick lake]

Besti is good. Both pve and pvp

[tropic summit]

she's likely one if not the best pvp unit in the game atm, definitely do build her asap

doubles as one of the best B3 on defense teams

[true tiger]

rocks and gear are in need

I'm out of mat for vesti

[quick lake]

Please safe kits for new treasures (whenever the release)

[true tiger]

I'm so far behind on treasure lmao

[quick lake]

OG Sak treasure surely

[true tiger]

I got helm, drake, laplace and tove

anyone else I don't use so no treasure for them x)

[quick lake]

Probably there’ll be another pvp treasure

[tropic summit]

blanc treasure

[glad meteor]

Wadafak

Bro did this. Only to then hit c1

C3>C2>C1

[raven plover]

https://tenor.com/view/where-surprised-panic-tell-me-hurry-gif-14851030

[eager mountain]

[swift mango]

There was no counter on SW. Otherwise she would have died.

4th ele line and it would be a kill easily. Even at 40 level difference

guess I have to get that line fr now...

[keen smelt]

could someone help with a pvp team? i have a general idea

[swift mango]

Elegg treasure to full gauge at start of fight obviously

[covert lintel]

[raven plover]

https://tenor.com/view/i-used-to-pray-for-times-like-this-celebrating-gif-6529507804860980052

[raven plover]

next time

[covert lintel]

I'll lose again

[swift mango]

make 0rl reiT best team in the game

ReiT+Mari+RH+MMast+EleggT

[keen smelt]

i totally couldve just given my blablalink i didnt think of that until right now

https://www.blablalink.com/shiftyspad/nikke-list?uid=MjkwODAtMjExNzgyNDY5OTUyMTI1NDgxOQ%3D%3D

[wild drum]

hey here are my teams, i have no idea who to give cubes or get more cp yk

@tropic summit idk who to invest in thats good longterm

[leaden canyon]

should probably focus on your campaign team first unless you really just want to play for pvp

pvp vestiTU and SWHA are both really strong

and can use them in campaign too

Should also get helm treasure

[tulip quest]

That Ego is insane

[unique wagon]

hmm

@umbral belfry

@shell hazel

Label in A*

[swift mango]

Normal poli is useless, if you wanted PoliT tier B, down normal poli to tier C-D.

[unique wagon]

Hmm?

PoliT in A then

[swift mango]

Is that not clear enough.

[tulip quest]

Explain more

Like she has low burst gen n stuff rarely used

[swift mango]

No one would ever use poli in this day and age if she isn't treasured.

[unique wagon]

How useless is more useless?

[eager mountain]

kinda have to define how much the list leans toward spa atk/ spa def /ca

[unique wagon]

half half

A- mainly less use in SpA. S+ higher use in SpA.

[swift mango]

Poli no treasure wouldnt be used anywhere

[tulip quest]

C.A is a different beast to tier list so many other options

[eager mountain]

didnt specify poli for that part, just the list in general

[unique wagon]

So "most" CA-only units are A and cannot be S+ unless theyre special

[tulip quest]

oh not bad I guess

[unique wagon]

S-SSS: Good use in SpA. Obviously good use in CA.
A: Good use in CA but can be good or bad in SpA.

[eager mountain]

if its merged half and half then sss standard should be "must pick" even for spa def, since its the toughest one as most nik does worse in spa def...
not like def matters that much but just way to standardize

but by that standard not even scar emi seems like a must in spa def now lmfao...

[unique wagon]

There is no must pick. It's must have or "very high value".

You want Emilia and Scar dropped?

[eager mountain]

no, only if standard is stricter

avoding giving direct placment ideas since i been losing interest in the game and lib alone cant save it

[unique wagon]

I want to talk about Siren, Soda, and RH specifically.

[tulip quest]

Not a must but "Better" in SPA so it's not that bad to be honest

[unique wagon]

These were highly debated: RH, Soda, Siren, LaplaceTr, XMaiden, Nero, Scarlet

I'm not sure if ShiftingUp (pun intended) the tier list to make Trina SSS is better.

[tulip quest]

Trina can't be SSS that's insane ranking

• Label now here so all the more

[eager mountain]

she cant be sss cuz the existing sss b2 being too good lol

[unique wagon]

Ok, so this is the final look rn with the debated Nikkes in green.

And Poli.

Oh ye I shud prolly question mark that Ada Wong

[tulip quest]

Good Enuf for me

[unique wagon]

Added Emilia to question mark

Prolly PoliT stays B. Not sure about Poli.

How usable is Mihara in SpA. way too much impact in CA to be A tier tho.

[north brook]

Ca only unit

Mihara comps are kinda the definition of ca comps, if u can play into it u can hard counter it easily

[wild drum]

campaign team is all set jusit tryna upgrade pvp and raids

[gritty ridge]

Why is zwei in B

And tove

[swift mango]

Emi is a bit more useful than LapT. Especially with 25% burst gen. She also can be main burst. But a bit less useful than SW.

Could put Emi 21-25% CS (+max s1) on SSS and Emi normal on SS. I guess

[swift mango]

not too much, just same as Soda.

Personally bias is real.

Peeps telling you to put Soda to S for age but you refuse, then saying Midhara too much impact.

She used to be "too much impact" when she was bugged yeah, not now.

[worthy sorrel]

urawhat honestly did pretty well that one season in CA he thought tove was centi and slotted her instead

[rustic sandal]

Yeah I pretty much give up chasing Chal. I'll just do it when I actually have a halfway competitive team.

[unique wagon]

I have KR and JP data that prove Soda is not dominating

Not having Mihara in CA is a big disadvantage (100%) use rate compared to Soda's 0% use rate

Soda only goes getween 0-80% and it jumps up and down while Mihara maintains high usage

What is argument for S tier? What data back you up?

In all data points RH has better winrate and I think usage rate too

You can say "oh sure Soda has lower winrate because Scar teams have inherently low winrate anyway" but thats the problem

Soda is ONLY used there and if Label kills Scar, Sodas gone too

RH wins because she can B1 and B3 and its hard to rank her because our B1 and B3 are separate. She can be used as both B1 and B3, as backup B3 even.

But "for ages"?

I was not in charge of PvP TL.

I think we all have biases

[unique wagon]

Not sure

Zwei was part of the old TL and I dont move units down to C yet

Tove treasure is usable if u wanna cope. The non treasure one isnt.

Its B tier anyway and the meta line is A and above.

This makes it the same as our Bossing TL so the TLs are much more equal now

I am here to collect feedback, but that doesn't mean if 75% agree, I approve it immediately.

And I am trying to find the middleground among all opinions here

[tropic summit]

holy f

how many attempts do you need: yes

[unique wagon]

That doesnt mean I ignore your opinion on Soda being S. Thus the question mark. Im waiting to hear Hime's and Hippo's opinions.

[tropic summit]

vestiTU, helmT, SWHA, noah, biscuit, jackal will always have a spot somewhere
afterward utilities... noise, trina, centi, rumani
situational B3s aswell, liberalio, cindy, scarlet

[unique wagon]

Whats your opinion on Soda

[tropic summit]

CA still good
SP arena and rookie nerfed as scarlet got nerfed

[unique wagon]

Give me a letter based on the screenshot TL sketch above

[tropic summit]

label reduced elec dmg to be non lethal, meaning soda loses the entire purpose she serves

if she was S rank, she can be C rank now

[unique wagon]

A is fine then

[swift mango]

Well, Idk your data but it's just my personal experience here. You could check the champ history teams we did on LD's Union discord.

Midhara is not 100% rating.

[tropic summit]

the important bit here is to distinguish where she is S rank and where she is C rank

[unique wagon]

I have one for KR and JP

[tropic summit]

CA is not the same tierlist as SParena and rookie

[swift mango]

Yeah, and they do not represent the whole game

[tropic summit]

just like a unit can be S rank on attack and C rank on defense

[swift mango]

RH is pretty much not used as far as CA on this discord goes comparing to Soda

[unique wagon]

As I explained, it's half half but like S+ means good use in SpA and CA, or at least possible use in SpA. A means not normally used in SpA, but can be good in CA.

[tropic summit]

uh ok i guess if that's the reasoning it can be that way

[unique wagon]

RH has higher winrate and maybe use rate too for both KR and JP so

[swift mango]

I haven't seen RH recently at all.

[tropic summit]

cuz you don't fight on deficit

lib + RH and vestiTU + RH are whale killers

[swift mango]

They are full of whale so ofc RH flex works better than Soda rng

[unique wagon]

And KR and JP have bigger playerbase

[swift mango]

Global has the largest player base

And I haven't seen RH recently for global either

[unique wagon]

You literally asked for Soda to be S tier then one msg later u said "ok maybe not Soda". Idk who said that. Not sure if it was u or someone else

[swift mango]

People ask soda to be S tier long before like months ago.
Vesti recently making soda not very good anymore.

So she is fine at A to me

[unique wagon]

I was not the one who manage PvP

I always ask to ping Snake and now Snake doesnt want to do it and no one is doing it.

Ok Retro and Gatrix want to do it but theyre not doing it.

[swift mango]

I mean, if you count Spa, then RH worth the S maybe because everyone build her for campaign and she is great in deficit. If CA alone, no.

[unique wagon]

Ok Retro actually started doing it, so I guess I take that back.

I had to take over Story TL too cus shit was not getting done

[swift mango]

Plus, Label further crippling Scarlet making Soda also worse

[unique wagon]

Then ok RH is S. Soda is A. Not sure why you kept blaming me for "you didn't raise Soda to S for ages" because as I said earlier I wasnt responsible for this TL and I kept echoing that here

You can blame me for XBrid in Campaign SS because yes that was me. I admit that was my oversight.

Hey thats why we have 4 staffs so my personal bias doesnt get too far (it got too far with XBrid).

[unique wagon]

Can you tell me about Nero then?

Does she deserve A or S?

[tropic summit]

CA unit, nerfed in SParena since a while

and even in CA she's losing her spot

[unique wagon]

So would she be similar to lets say ViperTr Viper SolineFT Soda-level of usage or RH B1 Nayuta Centi Anis-level of usage? Ok maybe not Anis.

Based on data and first intuition, I placed her in A, but some people here suggeted S.

[tropic summit]

nero S? ehhhhh

i wouldn't S

[swift mango]

She is also CA only. If you asked this question 6 month ago, she would deserve SS-SSS. But now, she isn't mandatory anymore.

[unique wagon]

Can you stop with the 6 months ago decorations

[tropic summit]

even back then... nero on defense was scarlet abusable

[unique wagon]

I followed CA but not too deeply

[swift mango]

Well, Nero in CA was mandatory

[tropic summit]

yes but CA has its own tierlist, you've to pray nero doesn't meet scarlet, then ofc she's SSS+

on the other hand if she met scarlet then she'd be C rank

how can you make a tierlist when it's completetly up to RNG

[swift mango]

She also beat scarlet. It was investment sensitive case

[unique wagon]

Ok, now how about Scarlet. Does she still deserve SSS

[swift mango]

Nero team used to be virtually 100% win rate in the hand of a whale

[tropic summit]

she's good on attack and utterly countered on defense
for attacking? she can punish a lot of things
for defending? she's literally knocked to the ground

[unique wagon]

Or do you advise I wait for this next CA first to see Label

[tropic summit]

label will be the same

amazing for attacking, bypassable on defense

[unique wagon]

Currently in SSS is Emilia SW Helm and TVesti. In SS Lib and Cindy. And in S Ada and Mihara. Can you tell me where wud u put Scar, Maiden, and Laplace?

[tropic summit]

take a unit like vestiTU and SWHA, these are gods on both modes
take units like noah, biscuit, jackal... these are gods too on both modes
take a unit like scarlet and label? attack great... defense pit bottom

[swift mango]

She is fine on A rate. I tested Label for the last 3 days. I believe no one on did suit tested her much more than me.

You could even drop her to B

[tropic summit]

A rate when fighting against elec

good luck making use of her against other elements

[unique wagon]

To see Scarlet's impact with Label around*

[swift mango]

Against Elec she is SS rate

[tropic summit]

she fights ele when? 1 times out of 5 in CA

20% and you want her to be SS? we jokin' right

[swift mango]

Use her as buffer. She is basically 10 seconds Liter.

[tropic summit]

she feeds, self stuns... situational af

[unique wagon]

And make enemy faster?

[warm monolith]

On t3 enemy noah and sw lived sadly,i linked my vestitu and she cleared all other but not the two. Sadly i cant share the footage atm

[coarse lake]

[unique wagon]

Anywho this

[coarse lake]

ppl haven't seen the vision of scar rosa combo that negates most label comps

[swift mango]

Don't let her get ATK and self stun would be no problems. She give more burst gen than RH.

Without piercing

[tropic summit]

get her 2 ammo and 20-40%atk

[unique wagon]

My question

[swift mango]

What's situational about a buffer

[coarse lake]

label is a p4-only unit if you don't want her stunned

[swift mango]

P2-3-5 is fine too depend on what you attack.

[tropic summit]

laplaceT can be A rank, clip RL with offburst potential and counters ele code
scar as i said got nerfed and remains strong on attack
maiden which one? xmaiden? the SG one? below A for SG, xmaiden can serve as defender B3 so i'd say at least A because situationally she can be quite useful

[spark granite]

This person in rookie decided to whale his way to 741 since the vesti comp was beating him during 721. Is there anyway to beat him still? He might leave my bracket during the reshuffling because of the powerleveling tho

[unique wagon]

Hmm

[tropic summit]

stop protecting her for her looks and cuz you like her

[swift mango]

LapT A rank you would be asking for half of Kinesix tier list to be drop 1 rank as well.

[warm monolith]

Im surprised too but she has almost 30% atk and decent ammo,i also use more max ammo cube

[coarse lake]

so only p4 in ca

[swift mango]

She is good enough as a buffer. With anti scarlet/maybe rosa benefit

[unique wagon]

Thats what ai wanted to say

S or Ss is mt question

[coarse lake]

imo putting sp and ca together is a mistake, but maybe that's just me

[tropic summit]

that looks like 3RL, use a 2RL team that snipes link

noah biscuit helmT RH SWHA

[coarse lake]

considering low cp diff and high cp diff are separate categories already for campaign

oh nvm you guys combined them

[unique wagon]

Abolished

Ye

[swift mango]

Maybe you could consider splitting SpA and CA tier list. Many people suggested that already.

[unique wagon]

Too much hassle

[spark granite]

Sorry if I sound like a nooblet but what does 3rl and 2rl mean? But I will try that comp out also tyty

[tropic summit]

build rosanna, they live because ada's lifesteal

or just mirror indom their T2 with scarlet/ein/RRH

[tropic summit]

it's team speed

2RL burst before 2.5RL, 2.5RL before 3RL and so on

[unique wagon]

And not enough dudtinction

[spark granite]

Oooo ok

[tropic summit]

here's your matchup

as you can see with the team i gave you, you will cast B3 before enemy is on B2, that means scarlet and the link gets a buffed HelmT nuke in their butt

[swift mango]

SpA has deficit so RH is SSS tier for example.

Nayuta also could be SS+

[unique wagon]

No thanks

[tropic summit]

this exactly

units that can get you wins above 20% deficit definitely should score higher

[unique wagon]

Again, not enough distinction

[coarse lake]

then give up on ca tierlist

it changes every few seasons anyway

[unique wagon]

And so we just change

[coarse lake]

and the ppl reading a tierlist on pvp ain't doing anything in ca except cheering

[tropic summit]

we wanna do things right, we need these tierlist:

CA arena
SP arena attack
SP arena defense
rookie (or just ignore it, dumb mode)

[unique wagon]

No need to make such distinctions

[swift mango]

Let newbie learn too. I used to read Prydwen tier list as newbie.

[tropic summit]

dafuq you mean no need, it's insanely different using scarlet on attack and on defense

[unique wagon]

Ok why not we have Story (Defense Stage) too for fun

What about each element for Story TL, each element for Bossing TL

[coarse lake]

they learn by copying their bracket winners, not tierlist

[tropic summit]

you can tell a dude "oh hey build scarlet she's amazing and you can even beat teams on deficit"
bro will come back and be like "hey but i lose all my defense matches with her, is she bad afterall?"

lib on attack? ultra chad will slaughter 24-26% deficit
lib on defense? pepega, 3RL noah catches 2RL lib

[swift mango]

I didn't.

[coarse lake]

sure lemme uh, put in jackal b1, then biscuit b2, then scar and emilia, and helmt for b3 for a ca comp

[warm monolith]

She is currently like this,i hope more atk lines will get her more cp

[unique wagon]

"Oh, I use Nayuta against Crown as the only B2. The shockwave keeps destroying my team. I thought Nayuta is good?"

*Ultra

[spark granite]

you're amazing tyty

[tropic summit]

7/10/10 40%atk, SR15, once you get that she's good

[swift mango]

Nikke isn't the only game where a whole team random SSS doesn't make a strong team. But tier list still works in those game.

[unique wagon]

There doesnt need to be a separate TL for something that only moves 5 units

[tropic summit]

feels like we gonna get very mixed tierlists without distinction between at least attack and defense

[warm monolith]

I mean,the skills and atk will probbly be easy but i was trying to get miranda T

[unique wagon]

So be it

[tropic summit]

the question then becomes: why even make them if they're not reliable

[unique wagon]

Formality

[coarse lake]

[tropic summit]

oof

[unique wagon]

Its a tier list of strength impact and value

Defense attack are alr taken into account for weighting

If u dk why a unit is rated high or low why use them?

[swift mango]

To be frank separate CA and SpA is enough. ATK and DEF too much of a hassle. Like Noah and Biscuit SSS but one because their burst skill, one because their s2.

[unique wagon]

Even the SSS units arent "slap around and see you magically win"

[tropic summit]

ye but you still give false information that way, i get it that it is an hassle, but that's like hiding the problem below the carpet

a lot of units would be way higher in rank than they'd be

[swift mango]

You could give those explanation in their separate unit guide

[tropic summit]

exactly, this would be way more effective

e.g. keripo tierlist

[unique wagon]

CA and SpA are the same. CA is basically SpA with some units boosted so not enuf distinction.

[unique wagon]

Bro, we have unit guides

[tropic summit]

eh noway

[swift mango]

Unit guide exist in Prydwen too. But they may hand wave it. Who know

[unique wagon]

It is

Well maybe not something like RH B1 but still

[swift mango]

It's like saying story and SR is the same.

[unique wagon]

Its not

[tropic summit]

it's not to make your life difficult Kise, but the core issue stands

[swift mango]

[unique wagon]

Its more like saying Bossing (singular) and SR (five teams) is the same

[tropic summit]

it will not be an accurate tierlist, so why even bother

[swift mango]

I mean CA you also needs to make 5 teams instead of 1-3

[tropic summit]

make an actual SP tierlist with attack and defense detailed for the actual rank, that'd be a newbie wet dream

[swift mango]

[marble saddle]

is it possible to defeat a 18% higher CP deficit Player?

[unique wagon]

Yes exactly our Bossing TL is just one

[tropic summit]

here you go #pvp-arena message

683 vs 490 = 29% deficit

although the correct answer: it depends
meta comp on deficit are an ugly thing to beat

[swift mango]

I mean, there is a difference between. "Make team to counter this" and "make team to counter more teams"

[marble saddle]

this doesnt look that meta to me but then again im not a pro pvp player.
i think ill try blanc indom comp
his cp is 2.9 mill.
mines closer to 2.4 mill

[tropic summit]

what's the enemy team?

[marble saddle]

the pic

[swift mango]

Up to 25% against competent team. Up to 40% against super bad team

[tropic summit]

ye you can win on deficit against this, it's nuke without sustain, give noah 2 biscuit stacks and a DPS B3 (e.g. SWHA or VestiTU)

noah rapunzel biscuit vestiTU HelmT/SWHA

[marble saddle]

hmm shouldnt noah be pos 5 due to his siren?

[unique wagon]

Sure but how many units are u gonna make different?

[tropic summit]

it assumes you're 11%CS team wide, if you aren't you gotta change noah position from p1

[unique wagon]

You need to make your own TL and ull see how annoying it is to manage them

[swift mango]

Scarlet could be SS tier in SpA now.

[marble saddle]

i hate that even after so long im still getting shafted by 11% CS team wide

[unique wagon]

U guys ask to make 4/2 TL for PvP. We abolished Campaign LD to remove hassle and now u want us to add one more.

[tropic summit]

@marble saddle put that team in here and check if you B2 before the stun line
https://nikke.top/

[unique wagon]

Sure I know but Idw to make 2 tier lists

[tropic summit]

i'll be honest, for nikke pvp arena, you just need 2 tierlists, 1 for attack 1 for defense
for CA, it's probably easier to just make a team tier list instead of a unit tierlist

[unique wagon]

And people said my one TL criteria was fine and good enough so I don't see the point of making 2 and making newbies get confused cus there are 2/4

[tropic summit]

how are they confused:

1. i need to make attack teams: oh lemme check the attack tierlist for pvp units
2. i need to make defense teams: oh lemme check the defense tierlist for pvp units

instead of:

why it says scarlet is SSS rank but my defense keeps losing?

[unique wagon]

Thats what you think the user story is

[swift mango]

I think you could add a different label color for unit that's this tier but also could be 1 tier lower.
That would make tiering easier

[tropic summit]

what kind of hell are you seeing that i don't

[unique wagon]

The actual user story is "why are there 2 TL which one shud I focus on first" or something like that

[unique wagon]

Unnecessary distinctions that can be explained in unit guide, and more ways someone can make drama

[marble saddle]

sorry but this is even harder for me to analyze than the deck builder website

[swift mango]

Separate SpA and CA actually won't make players asking that question. Unlike story, it make their life easier as well.

Many people coming here to ask what should they build for SpA specifically and ignore CA.

[unique wagon]

U know the problem here is:

• U asked for SpA vs CA
• Rail asked for Attack vs Defense

Now u see there are alr 2 different user stories

[tropic summit]

put siren in enemy team
put ur team with ur CS% below
check if noah is before red line

[unique wagon]

Ha

[coarse lake]

Crazy idea, give up b1 b2 b3 split, go sp atk, sp def, ca split

[swift mango]

It's because Rail didn't know your tier list and that you had individual guide as well

[coarse lake]

[tropic summit]

why the crazy idea sounds like the most common sense one

[marble saddle]

only siren? i thought i was to run his entire team?

[swift mango]

[tropic summit]

siren is a static timing, she can't get faster or slower at stunning regardless of team

[marble saddle]

ok gimme a moment

[coarse lake]

And if you really wanna show their burst stage, add a smol I, II, III icon in a corner of their pic

[tropic summit]

https://klipy.com/gifs/the-universe-tim-and-eric-mind-blown-1

[swift mango]

I think that would require recode the site. More of a hassle than 2 tier list.

[tropic summit]

probably

[coarse lake]

Photoshop the profile pics

[tropic summit]

[unique wagon]

I know Rail hates me

🙁

I thought we were friends but it seems we aren't

[marble saddle]

nope noah is after stun line so pos 5 noah is needed

[tropic summit]

i knew there was one sided love, didn't know there was one sided feeling hated

[marble saddle]

lemme try using SWHA.

nope swha is worse since i didnt bother putting any CS lines on her

[tropic summit]

other option is use noise in p1 and pray she lives to B1 on 2RL against 18% deficit

[swift mango]

What do you think about adding 3 color to label ATK/DEF/CA on each unit.

Like this unit is SSS without color label, mean it's SSS everywhere. Another unit with SSS with green label mean it's SSS in CA only. And so on.

I remember Prydwen has different label color on their another tier list.

[marble saddle]

for a 11% CS team wide every member needs 10% CS on minimum?

[tropic summit]

use nikke top, in general all clip RL units

[coarse lake]

Or keep overall tierlist the same, but at least add sp def, atk, ca split when hovering over the unit

[tropic summit]

eg: @unique wagon

essentially split the PVP label into CA sp atk and sp def

[marble saddle]

something like this?

[tropic summit]

check on nikke top

i don't know them by heart mate

also biscuit doko

i mean it could still work but you gonna take a lot of dmg

[marble saddle]

if i use biscuit then noah wont burst at pos 5

and since my cs is shit noah needs to be on pos 5 to avoid siren stun

the other option i was thinking was blanc indom

[swift mango]

P3-4 is same as p5 CS wise

[marble saddle]

[glad meteor]

Scarlet ss, not sss

[tropic summit]

try this team for science and record

to attempt winning try this

(rapunzel can be noise if you've more CP/invest on her)

vestiTU assumed 4%CS at least

rest just put quantum as above

[marble saddle]

kk. my break is over so ill attempt my tries when i get off work.

[marble saddle]

9% iirc

[leaden canyon]

Btw rail he cleared my defense firt try, I think I'm going to try and do the noise noah biscuit cindy rumani team and see if he has trouble with it again

If he still clears it then I guess I have to move stuff around on the other 2 teams

and then try mihara slow cindy

instead of siren

[tropic summit]

ye you can study your opponent this way and go by exclusion on which team he's likely skipping

2.5RL cindy is already enough expensive, don't bother making it 2RL
keep in mind label exists so avoid 2RL

[swift mango]

We don't have enough resources to not use a scarlet team in CA

[leaden canyon]

I should really fish for 4 cs on rumani

no rocks

I need surface content bro

how many more rocks were we getting a week with that?

like 3 or 4?

[tropic summit]

we need more source of rocks*
let surface content die and never happen

[leaden canyon]

At least they are fixing all the stuff we hated on it

But yeah we need more sources

I think they should add credit boxes to event shops too

[tribal hollow]

Yeah, 4 per week from surface content

[swift mango]

@unique wagon

Yeah, prepared to make surface content tier list.

[leaden canyon]

Oh god, good luck with that

[shell hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-ohayo-good-morning-anime-morning-anime-anime-cute-cute-anime-girl-gif-15699131992336099681

[swift mango]

4.2

[leaden canyon]

https://giphy.com/gifs/spongebob-spongebob-squarepants-water-bikini-bottom-gjx93XiXRE2NVLoFlH

[tropic summit]

@swift mango how is that poorly designed, ultra budget and recycled asset-based mode even getting greenlit

oh wait i know how, it cuz it costs nearly 0 design resources exactly because it's budget and recycled-asset based

[raven plover]

https://tenor.com/view/wataten-mya-ne-miyako-hinata-myane-ohayo-gif-24222410

[leaden canyon]

They honestly need to just up rocks rates in AI still

[shell hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-frieren-sleepy-sleep-tired-gif-6106152994423886531

[shell hazel]

I hate the feast/famine, just make the rock crates give me the average expected rocks

[leaden canyon]

This is like the one gacha game I play where its actually a struggle to build a unit I want and I been playing this game for like 3 years now

Just not enough rocks

[shell hazel]

if I should get X rocks with average luck, make the crates do it, bonus rocks is just the gamba we don't need

[tropic summit]

welcome to gacha, where you can't experiment sh*t because resources are scarce

[leaden canyon]

zzz and wuwa are not as bad as this

only other two gacha I play

[tropic summit]

still gacha trash that deserves to burn, anti-player design

release ananta and let's hope a new era begins

[unique wagon]

Why am I being tagged as if I werre SU

[leaden canyon]

At least remove the increase in cost of rocks when locking gear

[tropic summit]

real SU employee spotted

[swift mango]

Play Arknight in for a year then.
Well, this game has rock rng issue though. Other than that building an unit is faster here.

[leaden canyon]

I'm at rock and credits problem

Still need to overload B.milk

will wait for iron weak SR

[swift mango]

Try to make it into clash of clan or similar games and sell speed up.

[unique wagon]

Hi

[shell hazel]

imo they could improve in a few ways:

• let us freely lock/unlock lines without rocks/locks - increase rock cost per locked thing
• pity rolls on lines, don't roll the same stat I already have, cycle the stats so at least the right thing eventually shows up
• some kind of resource (each event?) where we could select a line to add to gear, it's rare so you can't spam it, but lets you build up stuff better
• similarly a way to slowly +1 phase rolls would be welcome. long time to do but would let you bump up phases on say line 3 where the other 2 are good

[leaden canyon]

watch them not do a single one of these things

[shell hazel]

nah they prob won't, the rng and rock gains make rolling units a proper pain

[leaden canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/doro-gif-7517771822800507103

[shell hazel]

it's actually not a terrible system if they tuned it a bit, it's better than some games like HSR tbh

where I have to farm gear and sort/roll it, it takes ages

[leaden canyon]

Like we cant even go off meta really with how tight the rock system is

[shell hazel]

rocks and fixed gear is better, but on days when I get 0 rocks it feels bad lol

I only just OL mmy xlud recently, I had her for more than a year

I have MLB eve and raven I can't spare the resources to OL yet :9

[tropic summit]

https://klipy.com/gifs/my-dress-up-darling-sono-bisque-doll-wa-koi-wo-suru-18

[swift mango]

Just get lucky

[tropic summit]

funny coming from you

[swift mango]

What?

[tropic summit]

[leaden canyon]

Pulled up the receipts

[swift mango]

I didn't get lucky doesn't mean other can't

[leaden canyon]

https://giphy.com/gifs/iontelevision-ncisla-ncis-la-deeks-cVkD7lLFb6oCm4hUTX

[tropic summit]

let's remove gacha and make it into a game you can grind rocks instead

[leaden canyon]

Rune scape

[tropic summit]

oh wait that kinda accelerates EoS

[shell hazel]

I guess I expect you to not be able to max out units easily it's part of the gated resources thing, but I think it's too hard atm and then stuff gets powercrept out

rocks and level 3 manuals seem the main gated resources along with gear xp/credits to spend on upgrading

I'm still in doll hell tbh though I hope that improves a bit over time, I can't max out all the dolls I want to either yet

[swift mango]

Let us spend rock to exclude lines from our potential result. Up to 5 lines. Permanent on each gear.

[shell hazel]

something like that could also work - I feel like we'd still need more rocks in general than we get now to keep up with reasonably building units

[swift mango]

New SW doesn't need CS, Charge Dmg, DEF, hit rate.
Most units also don't need them.

These 4 lines are the banes of gear rolling

Exceptions are on CS for common RL&SR in Arena

The could basically erase Charge Dmg, Hit rate and DEF lines from the game and no one would miss those.

@umbral crown

It's hard for people to @ you with this name.

[shell hazel]

Rosy became asian on trying to beat Asia

[shell hazel]

but they keep them in to give us more painful rolls 😄

@unique wagon what is the latest TL? I saw you pinged me but stuff was discussed since and I was asleep

[unique wagon]

Is he not?

[swift mango]

Xmaiden should be same tier as Noir

[unique wagon]

Somewhere up above

[shell hazel]

🐍

[unique wagon]

No

[swift mango]

SG gen with extra benefits

[unique wagon]

1 tier better

[swift mango]

Sometime Xmaiden isn't used at all. Noir is always good in SG and more

[shell hazel]

alright if you find it let me know I'm not in a hunting mood today

[unique wagon]

Wdym as defender she can tank with Biscuit, has good burst damage, can buff team, can be backup B3, does not aggro Rosanna, etc

I see XMaiden use very high in JP thats all I know

And unironically high winrates too

[swift mango]

Noir is best SG for any SG team and she offer good off burst dmg. That's better than Xmaid sometime.

[shell hazel]

xmaiden is very good but if we get more burst gen units I think she's one of the first to go except when you need a defender for biscuit things

[unique wagon]

I dont think she will go
Laplace will go I think

[shell hazel]

laplace has higher 2RL gen than xmaiden now I believe

[unique wagon]

But XMaiden doesnt aggro Rosa and is key in some comps like Noise Jack

[swift mango]

Xmaiden doesn't have good burst gen. 5th SG is still faster than 3rd hit of Xmaiden however much CS she have.

[unique wagon]

If any, I think SG team might go sooner or later

[shell hazel]

xmaiden is less useful as flex dps than lapT for the burst gen reason alone, but I like my xmaiden and run her where it makes sense

if I'm over needed gen then she is a better flex unit sometimes

[swift mango]

Whale could use Noir for more normal dmg on Scarlet too. That was what the top guy of SEA did.

And won lots of seasons

[unique wagon]

Could doesnt mean... U usually do it

[unique wagon]

Here u go, Hippo

[swift mango]

Xmaiden only have 2 use also, contingency burst 3 against SG, and biscuit block against SG

[unique wagon]

Could means A tier, not S. S would need more than just could.

[swift mango]

Xmaiden is could also.

[unique wagon]

She has more uses and perks as glorified SG with better class.

[swift mango]

Her only use now is counter SG.

[unique wagon]

Where? It's not the only team that wins.

And it's definitely not the most common team in JP CA. Unless I'm mistaken.

[shell hazel]

I def think scar needs to go down a tier

[swift mango]

SG is the most common team in any CA.

[unique wagon]

I think it's mostly Noise Jack Maid in JP.

[swift mango]

That's to counter SG

[shell hazel]

Scar down to SS from SSS

[unique wagon]

Since she counters SG, that means she is one tier above.

[shell hazel]

Emilia I think could still be considered top tier just due to her sheer gen and splash damage?

[swift mango]

Not 100% the time counter, could still lose.

[shell hazel]

I don't have her but if you do have her you'll generally be running her unless she's been moved out of the SPA meta somewhere

[unique wagon]

Scarlet SS is gonna be a drama inducing change but I am not against it

[fathom rock]

Just remove the TL and put a dice simulator

[shell hazel]

well if for no other reason than label counters her if she's used on def tbh

[swift mango]

She is still mandatory for CA. Can't take her out yet.

[unique wagon]

Among Cindy Lib XMaid Lappu MiharaBC, pick who will be SS and S

[quick lake]

SS/SSS is fine. She still staple

[fathom rock]

Just give scar partner and keep in sss

[shell hazel]

Cindy maybe down a bit, fast cindy gets ruined by label as well, and her own burst gen is horrific

[unique wagon]

She already has partner Retro pls open ur eyes

[swift mango]

She is the only strong Defender b3. No one power creep her for a long time. You can't take her down like that

[unique wagon]

You ask give Trina partner when she also has partner too

[shell hazel]

more and more we've got superior burst gen options, cindy only really works on slow cindy or if you have a prepared 2.5RL that can survive other 2RL archetypes

[unique wagon]

Ok, assuming Scar is in SSS and Cindy Lib are in SS, where place XMaiden Lappu MiharaBC AdaWong?

[fathom rock]

Just keep in sss then

[swift mango]

Yeah, she has more use than just burst gen.

[unique wagon]

Fun fact. Cindy's slow burst gen is what makes her work...

[fathom rock]

Is mihara even good outside slow cind

[shell hazel]

for slow cindy lol yes

[shell hazel]

nope

[fathom rock]

S might be too high

[unique wagon]

Attack comps in SpA. CA very cope.

[swift mango]

Yeah, Midhara isn't worth S rank but Kinesix based this on his JP experience.

[unique wagon]

But nearly 100% use rate in JP I think.

[fathom rock]

Bc slow cind

[unique wagon]

But Cind also slow

[swift mango]

Not on global. Jpn is just Whale CA. Change your tier list to Whale Tier list then.

[shell hazel]

I'd say what is the tier list aiming for? I think it's hard to judge when you're trying to mix all 3 modes

[unique wagon]

So Cind shud be A

[swift mango]

That make Midhara b

[shell hazel]

the most important mode is arguably SPA

[unique wagon]

Half CA, Half SpA. S+ means good in CA and good/usable in SpA either on ATK/DEF. A means used in CA but not normally used in SpA (situational, etc).

[fathom rock]

Cind shouldnt be below s lmfao

[shell hazel]

CA intros a lot of niche units that are not general pvp meta but work because of the 5 team thing in CA

[unique wagon]

Thats why I put the SGs in A and also SolineFT and those kinds of units

[scarlet adder]

i don't have Noah and that 55$ pack where i could get Noah is tempting me...

[unique wagon]

But putting Mihara in A feels wrong when without her ure locked out of one of the best CA teams

[swift mango]

SG is A when they have 100% represent rate on all server. Midhara is S because your bias experience when people already start moving away from slow cindy since Libby.

[unique wagon]

SG because they are weak in SpA. Read my criteria. Also SG isn't 100% must this unit or breek and their winrates are... below 45%.

[fathom rock]

Make a CA tag

[swift mango]

There are only 4 SG that's really used. Put them together on S tier then.

[unique wagon]

Mihara has no replacement, is used in one of the best teams with highest winrates. It's two different matters.

[shell hazel]

imo for B3:
SSS | Emilia | HelmT | Snow White | VestiTU
SS | LapT | XMaiden | Lib
S | Cindy | Ada
Mihara to A because her only good pvp use is CA though she does have PVE application

[swift mango]

She has replacement, some peeps won CA with Siren instead of Midhara. And Midhara isn't even on above 50% CA winners on English server now

[unique wagon]

Hmm Cindy in S

[unique wagon]

But English server may not be the best so

[shell hazel]

Cindy is still good don't get me wrong but I feel like she just has the one team where she works good now, slow cindy lol

[swift mango]

English is the best because one whale doesn't dominant too much they go 15/16 CA winning.

[unique wagon]

Siren has poor rates in KR and JP. Mihara has good rates in KR and JP and EN. So Mihara is better

[swift mango]

That make statistics basically their team alone

[swift mango]

I said replacement not better replacement

[unique wagon]

Its enuf for SS. Impact is too large to drop her + I dont want drama.

[shell hazel]

she's on notice imo

if someone runs fast cindy against me in CA then my bay or noah teams just beat it usually

[swift mango]

Drop her and drop Midhara as well.

[unique wagon]

She will stay like SG. For a very long time because no one else can do slow damage like her.

[shell hazel]

if they run slow cindy then lib can beat that, the meta will shift and she'll be one of the first to go

[unique wagon]

No, Id rather pump them both up than down cus down means drama.

[shell hazel]

I didn't run scar this CA I'm experimenting how the teams work without her

[wind kelp]

One synchro to 621 grabby hands at CP

[unique wagon]

And who are gonna defend us from drama? Maincord volunteers?

[swift mango]

Lemme tell you against why Jpn & Korean are worse. Because a few guys keeps winning it make the champion team pools smaller to just their team alone. And they won because they whale not because better teams.

We should start to collect global and NA sample more tbh. SEA I could cover but other server I could only asked for small portion.

[unique wagon]

Anyway Cindy Lib Mid SS then

And Lappu

[shell hazel]

LapT is as well for now

[swift mango]

What mid SS?

[unique wagon]

Maiden

A lot of people agree with it anyway

And said its fine in SS so

[shell hazel]

pepper to A

high burst gen b1 when you're desperate lol

[unique wagon]

P

[shell hazel]

I'm running pepper cope this CA 😄

[unique wagon]

Im not sure if putting her next to Siren Soda Soline is a good idea

[shell hazel]

for her burst gen potential alone it's good

I ran her here https://youtu.be/MPU9zltKDfE?si=XYIyyZDPCBez5VrI&t=68

[unique wagon]

Interesting proposition

[shell hazel]

p4, safu

[swift mango]

SS is a bit much. She got her shine these days because linked Noise. Before it was Nero team. All to counter SG tbh.

[unique wagon]

Will consider Pepper

[shell hazel]

pepper main downside is high feed to jackal

[unique wagon]

Bro u want S when the majority here say SS is fine :/

No wait u want A

[swift mango]

I mean some SG could be S.

[unique wagon]

Like who

[shell hazel]

I think xmica on same tier as pepper makes sense right? both have decent gen for b1

[swift mango]

Drake, Noir, BSoda, Viper
The only useful ones. At the moment.

[unique wagon]

Thats why both are in B

[shell hazel]

yeah, if pepper goes up (which I think she should) then xmica can follow

[fathom rock]

Who the hell gonna be in ss just make it empty

[unique wagon]

Not CA meta though

[shell hazel]

pepper is imo on a similar tier for flex battery/usage as stuff like soda or soline

[swift mango]

Keripo use xmica

[unique wagon]

But does he win

[shell hazel]

no but without pepper/xmica you can't quite hit lots of 2RL teams if you want to

[swift mango]

You asked if Keripo won?

[unique wagon]

Yes

[swift mango]

He does. But Idk if he still use xmica now

[shell hazel]

not sure what keripo ran this CA

[unique wagon]

When

[shell hazel]

I don't have xmica so it's cope pepper for me

[swift mango]

Well, he cycle her around. Season he use, season he not. But I doubt he still use her now after SW.

[unique wagon]

Ok B tier the-

[fathom rock]

Just make tl spa def, attack can rps and ca can have a tag trust

[swift mango]

Consider xmica is limited and not many would have her + required high investment. Sure. But Pepper is low investment and ready to use more, so consider that

[fathom rock]

Will make some of these ratings a lot easier

Xmica with siren soda is silly

[fathom rock]

Investment tag and limited tag to rank her at her built potential

[swift mango]

Do you think Xmica worth it though?

[shell hazel]

personally I would focus the TL on SPA mode only (not just def that is silly)

and tag CA units is a good idea

[fathom rock]

Look to me dead in the eyes and tell me Xmica is just as worth as siren and soda and should be considered basically meta

[swift mango]

So she isn't

[fathom rock]

B is fine

[shell hazel]

hell you can even have SSS | SS | S | and a separate tier for CA stuff

[swift mango]

Yeah, unless that dispel became meta. Same to pepper though, her one shot has potential but I only same whale winning with her.

[shell hazel]

pepper xmica viper mihara all of these only have any place due to CA

[fathom rock]

Wait yall debating pepper A?

[shell hazel]

for CA yes, for general PVP no

[swift mango]

It was hippo

[shell hazel]

same as viper, you're not running viper in SPA

she's A tier

[fathom rock]

Ca Tag need

[swift mango]

Well, viper is running because Rosa

[shell hazel]

I think so yes

[swift mango]

Pepper is tough to slot

[shell hazel]

I actually don't have viper yet lol 😄

[fathom rock]

Dw you won't feel the difference

[shell hazel]

so far yes that is true

I'd support a general SPA mode focus with tags/rating for CA stuff

[fathom rock]

Ca Tag would be sooo good

[shell hazel]

you could even give it's own vertical thing, B1, B2, B3, CA, then you can rank the CA units in SSS etc

sure it means mixing CA units in one column but at least then it's split out

[swift mango]

I think @unique wagon told you to do tier list?

[unique wagon]

It will show up in PvE tl too

[fathom rock]

it's a pvp tag why would that matter

[swift mango]

Prepare two set of image

[unique wagon]

Bcus tags are shared

[swift mango]

But it doesn't affect anything coherent wise

[shell hazel]

Kisenix I do think some consideration to separate how CA is handled for PVP TL would be good

• own column (so CA can be SSS but for that mode)
• tag or similar

[fathom rock]

Ah yes, mihara sss with Ca Tag in boss tier totally she's sss in bossing because of ca

[unique wagon]

I dont think this is possible seeing how its coded rn

[shell hazel]

because a lot of stuff fits into CA only

[unique wagon]

Only Mihara

[shell hazel]

soda pepper xmica viper mihara and some others inc absolute team

no one is running absolute team generally on SPA that I saw so far

[unique wagon]

Thats why those are A tiers and below. They are NOT key units but are supplements.

[shell hazel]

but if you could split out CA stuff then the list can focus more on SPA which is truly the actual pvp mode most should be focused on

CA caters to the few

[swift mango]

Make a SG team without Drake, BSoda, Noir and Viper then.

[unique wagon]

The higher the rank, the higher a unit's impact on CA and feasibility in SpA, and vice versa. Good enough.

[fathom rock]

Change tl to special arena
Make new page for ca comps

[unique wagon]

I dont want to manage another TL

[swift mango]

Let retro manage it

[shell hazel]

or have CA tag (which is hidden and no image) and have a show CA? button which hides/unhides them I dunno lol

[fathom rock]

Just comps ca is 🎲 anyway

[unique wagon]

Just make a CA comp page
And let the TL be like this

[swift mango]

Nah, tier list in Jpn is stable because only like 10 whale keep winning it.

[unique wagon]

This is valid already. Idk whats the issue

There is no unit in SSS that doesnt work in SpA on either atk or def

[swift mango]

I collected 8 CA winners last season and only 4 guys used slow cindy, 3 with Midhara.

All 8 used SG

[shell hazel]

issue for me is that most will just see the list and think that mihara is better for pvp than she is for example, truth is that rank is fair for CA only

[unique wagon]

And when you reach S its alr a bit problematic but its not impossible. RH good for attacking on deficit. MiharaBC can be used on attack on SpA too.

[fathom rock]

I kid you not, not a single soul has commented on A and below in campaign or B and below in bossing

[unique wagon]

But units in A tier and below are weaker than SS even in SpA (in most cases).

Not impossible just more problematic

[shell hazel]

in any case, scar needs to come down a tier, drama be damned

or it's gonna be s.anis again

where she stays at a higher tier for way too long

[fathom rock]

Good system and all but
People won't read that

[unique wagon]

But Mihara is better for pvp than whatevers in A and beliw

[fathom rock]

Not in spa

[unique wagon]

Whats wrong?

No shit using Clip SGs in SpA is impossible

[shell hazel]

I'd not run mihara in SPA even on attack I think you'd just run another clip RL like centi or w/e

[unique wagon]

Who do u want to kill with attacking SG? At least Mihara can kill. Ok sure ReiTN can wipe but eh? There are probably better teams.

RH? U get blocked so hard. SBS? Sure ig she works.

[shell hazel]

they're all trash you'd not run them vs other gen from b1 or b2 category

throw in a rumani or a centi for the gen is better than trying to force in mihara

[swift mango]

Midhara can kill who?
Attacking SG can kill Blanc Jackal team easily in SpA. Are you playing SpA?

[shell hazel]

I'd potentially say that stuff like drake or whatever is a better flex for SPA than mihara ever would be

[unique wagon]

Its about countering, so it doesnt matter. Mihara can be on ATK and win so she is not better or worse than lets say ReiTN or any burst gen (who is also S+).

[fathom rock]

Sg comp in spa attacking is heaven with how many teams expose p1

[unique wagon]

Thats just people's issue rather than their feasibility

[shell hazel]

you can safely run drakeT as clipSG on attack if opponent has no jackal to feed or scar to counter kill you

[swift mango]

I don't need Midhara on ATK in Slow Cindy team. It could be any MG. Wtf. She is only in slow Cindy in CA to counter scarlet and Bay.

[shell hazel]

this is more common I think than mihara

[fathom rock]

DrakeT SS

[unique wagon]

Yeah and what makes her better than Mihara. Mihara can at least flex in as a vital unit for some counter comps. When drake can be replaced by... anything with burst gen too.

Common doesnt mean better

[swift mango]

Midhara is useless in SpA aside from slow Cindy or some weird Indom def.
No one needs her for attack.

[unique wagon]

||it's common cus people invest for PvE||

[fathom rock]

Then stop basing tl on jp use rates

[shell hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-drake-nikke-nikke-nikke-drake-gif-10830024513870136689

[unique wagon]

Im basing on everything including that

[swift mango]

People invest more in Rapipi. Many time I recommend teams, Midhara doesn't have the CP, so they use Rapipi instead. Rapipi SSS tier.

[unique wagon]

When I play SpA. There is no way SG is useful at all unless its 2024 bruteforce meta T3.

[fathom rock]

Mihara the 1 team nikke in S
Cant even give her partner

[shell hazel]

Rapi is def better for SPA than Mihara! Rapi indom let's go!¬

[unique wagon]

Yeah right thats why Drake is A not S. Shes common cus shes invested.

[fathom rock]

I love rapi indom

[swift mango]

SG Rosa is useful on ATK if you had the CA.
They are useless on DEF most the time yeah

[shell hazel]

Rapi indom is legit

[unique wagon]

Meh. Not useful unless for 1v1 indom right at the same time.

[shell hazel]

that is her main use yes but she is good at it

[unique wagon]

MG means she shoots first and wins indom war but in 2026 really?

[shell hazel]

it's useful sometimes

slow cindy too much rng

[unique wagon]

Hence best replacement/situational B and above. Rapipi is B. Makes sense.

[swift mango]

He burst is good. There is a reason she is used instead of, say Doro.

I have Sugar invested even before Drake and I had to invest in Drake because she is just better

[unique wagon]

I can only demote Cindy to S if Scar is demoted to SS and Mihara can be A in that case otherwise they all go up by 1

[fathom rock]

Does that mean Ada is going to A and sanis to B

[unique wagon]

No, they wont change

[fathom rock]

So Ada is same value as cindy now

[unique wagon]

And surely Lappu and Maiden SS and Cindy S will NOT bring drama

[fathom rock]

I was just getting started

[shell hazel]

imo Cindy and Scar value has dropped a bit, even if the TL doesn't reflect it

[unique wagon]

Idk why u dont like Mihara in S. Whats the problem.

If this is CA, S makes sense. So why is it a problem for non CA.

[swift mango]

The problem is Xmaiden not Laplace. She is well deserved SS no matter which you move.

[fathom rock]

Your about to put mihara same value as cindy same as Ada and lapT better

[shell hazel]

Cindy version of this comp is now just better with Vesti instead of Cindy

[unique wagon]

If your argument is Mihara is useless in SpA, then everyone in A is mostly useless in SpA anyway, so her being S isn't a major problem.

[shell hazel]

this is the old 2RL cindy that everyone used to run

[gritty ridge]

I love noise noah vesti

I havent used 2rl cindy in months

[unique wagon]

I mean I can bump Ada to SS and Mihara alone can be S.

[swift mango]

2rl Cindy is too outdate now.
I still see one guy winning CA with it though.

[shell hazel]

no one does anymore, and if they do it's easily countered by Vesti

[fathom rock]

Lemme get this straight
Scarlet ss
Ada ss
LapT ss
Cindy s
Mihara s
I've officially lost the plot

[gritty ridge]

Ada? SS? She has low use rate tho

Interesting choice

[unique wagon]

Nah, Scar SSS, Cindy SS, Ada S. I dont want drama.

[shell hazel]

I thought Ada was S?

[swift mango]

Ada SS is weird.

[fathom rock]

Yea keep it like that

[shell hazel]

Ada should stay S

[unique wagon]

Ok so MiharaBC will be in S.

[fathom rock]

Scar downgrade can only happen if you demote A tier to B imo

[gritty ridge]

Scar in CA is still one of the best choices

[swift mango]

Scar down grade mean only Vesti worth the SSS in burst 3

[shell hazel]

i'm trying without - will see how her usage goes

[unique wagon]

Mihara has a much higher use rate and win rate than Ada who is in S and SGs who are in A sooo (only winrate not use rate).

[fathom rock]

Make my 21cs besti hapi

[gritty ridge]

I would put mihara in A

[unique wagon]

I will not

[shell hazel]

nah HelmT and SW def belong here

high burst gen, heal, AOE etc

[unique wagon]

Without a proper argument as to why she must be A and not S. And make comparison with other units in A.

[gritty ridge]

Shes not even in all of her own team variants, and she has near 0 spa/rookie usage

[fathom rock]

Slow cind is meta tho

[unique wagon]

She is one of the best variants though.

[gritty ridge]

Slow cindy is also slowly losing meta as more and more counters start showing up

[shell hazel]

slowly dropping off I reckon

[fathom rock]

Then she can slowly drop in 3 months

[unique wagon]

But yes I still see zero argument except "doesn't work in SpA" when EVERYONE ELSE in A mostly doesnt work anyway so 1 unit being special doesnt change anything.

[swift mango]

Already dropping since libby

[gritty ridge]

Mihara cant even hit rosa

[unique wagon]

I still see high use rates and high win rates

Until that drops, shes S

[swift mango]

It's hard because only whale winning in jpn and they don't need to change their teams

[unique wagon]

Plus Anis is still in S and no one uses her

So she shud be A right or B by definition

[shell hazel]

issue with anis is future investment more than how good she is, it's a waste to spend much resources on anis

[unique wagon]

Oh and Rapu doesnt get used in SpA all the time so she must be A tier

[shell hazel]

vs centi

[fathom rock]

Has use vs no use

[unique wagon]

Mihara has use just not used

Know the difference

[shell hazel]

I do think maybe rapu would warrant a drop at some point actually, she is good but with the fall off on nero/moran etc she's not as widely used anymore

I throw her in where I can but she's not a cornerstone of any of my teams

[unique wagon]

You use Rapu when u want revive. You use Mihara if u want to do some attack gimmicks. I see no difference.

[shell hazel]

mostly I take rapu for her heals

she's a decent healer

[unique wagon]

You use SG for... Idk burst gen?

[fathom rock]

Thw last gimmick I did with mihara was sac her against scar soda so that I can ros nuke scar before soda stun

[shell hazel]

and execution squad if you built SG enough

unprotected P1 you can murder with some SG's

[swift mango]

Rapu is used mostly for heal and stun nowadays with Nero became useless to many people.

[unique wagon]

So anyways Mihara has use. Just not used. Clip SGs have use too but replaceable. Again, not used, unless u only have them invested or prefer them or its situationally better.

[leaden canyon]

The rapu scar soline team is around

label now though

[gritty ridge]

It was mainly an atk or CA team anyway

[fathom rock]

Mihara s, rapunzel ss seems fair rn

[swift mango]

There is only 4 clip SG that's moving around. You don't use other SG unless you wanted worse teams

[unique wagon]

That was the TL everyone here seems to agree upon except Blood

[fathom rock]

Is bsoda being S or A

[unique wagon]

Who wants Maiden in A tier

[swift mango]

I wanted some SG to move up.

[unique wagon]

Why. So Mihara in S doesnt look too wrong?

[fathom rock]

Slotting any non scar nuker without jackal or biscuit feels so impossible
Maiden A would happen if you raise the other sgs into S

[swift mango]

Both

[unique wagon]

He meant xmaiden from ss to a

[fathom rock]

Nah that's crazy

[shell hazel]

nah xmaiden too good for that

[fathom rock]

I'll go record my rocca brb

[unique wagon]

See thats why

[swift mango]

Xmaiden is SS now and Noir is A? Then nvm me. I won't care about your list anymore

[shell hazel]

I'm not against moving some of the other clip SG up a bit though

I mean you have mana and drake on same tier but mana is very ?? usage today

[unique wagon]

Mana can go B

[fathom rock]

Xmaiden lapT lib ss
Noir drakeT bsoda S
Other clips A
Pinne in B

[shell hazel]

yes something like that works

[unique wagon]

I dont like clip sgs in S because they dont work on spa attack or def unless ure desperate

[shell hazel]

I do think a 2 tier gap is wrong xmaiden isn't that much better

[fathom rock]

BRO YOU HAVE MIHARA ON S

[unique wagon]

She can work on attack against some comps. SG gets brick wall.

[fathom rock]

Sg gets the ca use mihara would why put them A

[shell hazel]

eh I'd say the clip SG's better in SPA than mihara, I agree with what he said

[swift mango]

There are 3 def team and only 1 biscuit. Wtf are you on?

[versed mesa]

I wanna point out that for SP arena, you sometimes have to also take into account your bracket. For example mine, the top 4 are not super heavy PvP focused players, so they don't know or care about the absolute best meta, since they could sail along with higher synchro and CP. Until I started messing with them and accidently made them put more effort and whaling in to improve

[shell hazel]

bring up the core clip SG to S alongside Mihara

[unique wagon]

Its not only Biscuit that counters SG

[fathom rock]

The only defs I cant sg nowadays are biscuit/scar trina/fricking cindy p1 or moran nero

[swift mango]

And Moran that 80% of SpA player doesn't have built

[unique wagon]

Their problem then

[shell hazel]

if SG's don't work Mihara won't either

[swift mango]

Noise p1 as lone b1 is the prime SG target.

[unique wagon]

Then Mihara goes A. Idw SG in S+.

[fathom rock]

Literally this and no sane person does p1 cind in spa

[shell hazel]

do this Kisenix and keep Mihara as S alongside them #pvp-arena message

[fathom rock]

But you said mihara is better than A

[unique wagon]

But if I move Mihara to A, then XMaiden and SG still have 1 tier gap

[fathom rock]

Xmaiden going S?

[unique wagon]

And Scarlet to SS

[shell hazel]

you can keep the rest as you want just raise the clip SG's some to same tier as mihara

and 1 tier below xmaiden/lapT

[fathom rock]

So mana rh sbs are going to B?

[unique wagon]

No.

Ok u know what the sgs can go up

[versed mesa]

My tierlist is so much simpler. If my team wins all the Nikkes in it are SSS, if they lose, they are all F tier

[unique wagon]

But id rather have Maiden go to S and Mihara go to A

[fathom rock]

So all teams are F because no such thing as 100% winrate

[unique wagon]

Thats the tier list though correct

[fathom rock]

That won't make much sense without demoting literally everyone

[versed mesa]

https://tenor.com/view/the-joke-superman-flying-missing-the-joke-not-getting-the-joke-gif-16558902

[unique wagon]

Team matters more than units

[shell hazel]

you'd have to demote others like mana and RH

the clip SG's are good/useful flex units you'd just not necessarily run them if you have all the SSS/SS stuff built

or are in CA

[leaden canyon]

Maiden treasure when

[fathom rock]

Ss and above spa meta
S and A ca/situational unit
Put centi ss
Put trina partner sss

Centi in S still triggers me

[fathom rock]

Treasure when

[shell hazel]

when we get Marciana treasure

[leaden canyon]

[shell hazel]

OK look I just want it lol

but at this time I'd take any treasure info because SU slacking on giving it

[leaden canyon]

I hope rouge doesn't get one, shes like the only older character that has no dupes some how

[fathom rock]

If rouge gets a treasure next batch quitting might not be too far fetched

[leaden canyon]

even though I have had her on wishlist since release lol

no dupes

[fathom rock]

all my accs have 0lb mmast

[leaden canyon]

my rouge also somehow has 100 ele

[leaden canyon]

well no way she gets a treasure at least

still just either non used units or semi used units

[unique wagon]

Theyre waiting for collabu

And Retro

Hello

Where evetyone

[shell hazel]

[unique wagon]

Ok ima play pjsk then

[shell hazel]

I don't think there was anything left to cover?

[swift mango]

Aren't

[swift mango]

https://tenor.com/view/miss-you-i-miss-you-i-miss-you-too-miss-you-too-love-you-gif-8139020166029150331

[swift mango]

XMaiden isn't spA meta anymore tbh.

Unless you somehow had her more built than Libby.

[fathom rock]

Xmaid lapT lib all interchangeable in my mind you can use one or the other just fine

The what

[swift mango]

A bit low like Noah tier maybe

[fathom rock]

lapT clip rl now?

[swift mango]

Did you missed the burst gen buff?

[fathom rock]

Yes

I kid you not I almost didn't exist for the last 2-3 weeks

[swift mango]

No wonder you keep saying XMaiden SS tier equal to lapT is fair

[fathom rock]

I'll go try it

Youre telling me this is 2.5rl

tf happened to bgen

[shell hazel]

this was a while ago - they fixed her burst gen on cover

[swift mango]

Oh wait LapT is a bit worse than Noah

[fathom rock]

I'll give her quantum and ball

[shell hazel]

it's why LapT > Xmaiden unless you need b3 def

Xmaiden more comfy jackal link flex as well

[unique wagon]

Tell me

[shell hazel]

I had misindom on LapT last match because Rosa/Nayuta screwed up my hp :9

[swift mango]

You didn't know either
Yeah, just read the chat

[fathom rock]

[unique wagon]

Wow very useful

Blocked for not helping

[scarlet adder]

do i see correctly that ammo on snow white is crazy good in pvp? mine is already build :[

[shell hazel]

1 ammo is enough

[fathom rock]

1 line is nice

[swift mango]

Like what we are talking about right at this moment

Wtf

[unique wagon]

Your girlfriend

[fathom rock]

When did this change happen