Ship Balance Feedback

[limpid rapids]

sigh alright we’re back to making balancing arguments around edge cases of an edgecase again

[dapper ruin]

thats the milint way

thank the heavens ccp does not listen to a thing he has to say

[limpid rapids]

Its good to be aware of those edge cases

But making them the center of balance concern hurts other balance areas

[dusty ibex]

Edge cases are things you see in solo PvP, not fleet combat.

[dapper ruin]

You dont use damage mods in the lows on the ceno

its main damage comes from the pod which irrc does not have a damage mod

[ebon turret]

I wonder if that's kestrels first time interacting with this particular Eldritch horror of badposting

[dapper ruin]

Probably. Think the only time CCP interacts with Milinit is when they warm him

[limpid rapids]

You can use damage mods in the lows, but it’s situational as for why you would. I treat the guns and missiles on the ceno as utility pressure frankly

But they do a respectable output themselves

Tholos is in a weird spot where it’s both fairly good but also anemic at the same time compared to other destroyers with it’s main strength being the covert cloak and web resistance

[dapper ruin]

HAMs + 220s do 500 dps cold without damage mods

not amazing but like ya said, theyre more utility pressure than anything cause the damage comes from the pod

[dusty ibex]

I have a Tholos but have yet to find a situation to use it properly.

The little ship can fit an incredible tank for a destroyer

[limpid rapids]

With the Ceno being balanced down slightly, the Tholos might benefit from a moderate or mild balance upward

[dusty ibex]

Mmm

[limpid rapids]

Oh hell yeah it can be a tanky little shit

[dusty ibex]

Perhaps a slight increase in S sized DOT range

Like from 6km to 8km

[limpid rapids]

Yeah, what I was thinking

[dusty ibex]

6km feels very short

I’m not mad skill yet on it so it’s like 5.4km

It is suffering from my curse of “oooh I have crafted a fit to try out” then I buy 3 of them and end up flying a Hecate instead

[limpid rapids]

I’ve mostly flown Tholos as an RP ship, have used it for pvp on an alt and it is competent, but other options just do better as destroyers

Where as the Ceno functions both in its ambusher DOT platform role and as a brawling BC aside from the DoT

[sonic pebble]

But the Cenotaph is being balanced around a Wormhole situation.
And the Edge Case.

So, the argument its not being done about this is an issue seems a bit flat.

Because the "Edge Case" equals unintended consequences in other areas.

Do you guys even know the Cenotaphs low end dps? A Cenotaph with HAMs and ACs...700+dps potential-over 800+dps with overheat. Because of its 100% Medium Projectile and Heavy Assault Missile Bonus. And considering that it can punch through any hole just with that insanity. And we want to buff its damage???

Yes I can understand why people are annoyed by its pods...because they respond to targets HP increasing. IE the Pulsar/Wolf Rayet situation.

And that Cenotaph DPS isn't factoring in implants/abyssals/boosters anything. So its DPS is even higher with the pod fluctuating to the targets HP. So if you are going HP implants Amulet/Nirvana...you are just asking for bigger chunks being taken out. If you think on it...CCP made the Breacher Pod to counter gameplay with HP Pods. Which incidentally works very very well in Wormhole Space since the Wormholes passively increase HP in Pulsar and Wolf Rayets...which further increases the Breacher Pods chunk tearing. [maybe the counter to that issue was shorting the Breacher Pod time]

Here is also a funny note...the breacher pod depending on target...can do 0 damage. The percentage actually has some funny threshholds.

[dapper ruin]

Lowend DPS without any damage mods and no breacher is 500-600

not 700-800

[limpid rapids]

It’s being balanced with an edge case in mind, not AROUND the edge case of the edge case

There’s a difference therein

[dapper ruin]

Also where was it said the damage was getting buffed/we wanted the damage buffed?

i missed that if thats the case

[limpid rapids]

They’re giving it half of a gyro and BCU of damage

According to the AT stream

[dapper ruin]

Ah, def missed that then

[sonic pebble]

That is a lowend...no officer/no abyssal Cenotaph...no implants....no tweaks...total is 846dps...if I am hitting you all at once.

No drones added

drones can add +200dps

[dapper ruin]

Is that with or without damage mods

[limpid rapids]

And?

That’s… fairly normal for a combat battlecruiser

[dapper ruin]

also, yes, why does that matter?

my BNI can pump out 1200 dps

[dusty ibex]

Half a gyro and half a BCS is actually quite a significant buff considering the normal fits don’t even run either.

Or at the most a single BCS

[limpid rapids]

In a vacuum? Yes, but paired with the other changes, it definitely changes its place in wormholes for sure

[dapper ruin]

Milint where tf are you getting 400 dps from?

ah heated

So half a BCS and Gyro would put the Ceno at roughly
380 dps from missiles heated (340 with no BCS, 420 with BSC, 80 dps different)
380 dps from 425mm heated (340 with no Gyro, 420 with Gryo, 80 dps different)

• 155 for T2 hammerheads
  Total of 915dps roughly before pod. Seems reasonable to me

[rancid parcel]

Revert fighter application nerfs and or give carriers a chunky 100% plate/extender bonus

[dapper ruin]

300%?

[rancid parcel]

Make carriers great again 🥺

[spare tangle]

did carriers even get talked about at all during the balance part of the stream

[dusty ibex]

No

Nothing besides BC adjustments and railgun nerf

[dapper ruin]

carriers will always just be glorified suitcases now 🙁

[rancid parcel]

Not even

Dreads do that too

They both have 1,000,000m3 smb

And yeah sure carriers get conduit but I mean…

[limpid rapids]

At least give carriers some more cool things to do…

[rancid parcel]

It’s conduit, not bridge. Can’t take along haulers or such

[dusty ibex]

They exist to get solo’d by shield Sins

[spare tangle]

why do dreads even get a smb

[rancid parcel]

I’d rather they can be a good ship with a niche than a useless ship only relegated to a few specific functions like they are now

[rancid parcel]

[dusty ibex]

All caps do

[rancid parcel]

Carriers and dreads get 1,000,000m3. Supers and titans get 5,000,000

[limpid rapids]

I mean yeah, I agree with that, but also just more broadly, in the lore carriers are also used as troop ships, the Archon especially… hell give them a counterboarding aura or something as a defensive area buff against DoT weapons or whatever

While making fighters not suck to boot

[spare tangle]

Titans and carriers and the rorqual makes sense but dreads? logicaly youd want more armour or a bigger shield generator or whatever instead on a dread

[rancid parcel]

Yeah

[sonic pebble]

Well its going to be hitting a bit harder...and because of it being a HAM/AC hull its going to be close and inside its optimals meaning almost perfect application. [Just add drones + Breacher Pod...cherry on top.]

Buffing by + half Gyro/BCU....coughs CCP forgets the Gurista mods again. Is going to be a pretty sizable upgrade.

Then we start to overtorque it about 1500 dps...in kspace. But you can get to 1000-1200dps. [And you want to buff this?] Its theoretical max before Breacher Pod is over 2478dps.

With Breacher Pod....sweats...we are talking about a ship that go to the mat. Go over 3000+ the Pyfa notes only give percentage of a 100K target...so if you go over that...sweats.

[rancid parcel]

My head cannon is that dreads are so chunky their propulsion systems need so much power just to move around, which is what the siege core redirects to make use of, which is why they are virtually defenseless and useless out of siege and mobile

But them having the same smb space is boggling

[limpid rapids]

Not really… lore wise dreads are designed for a different kind of warfare than they get used for by capsuleers

[rancid parcel]

But anyways let’s not nerf dreads and instead buff carriers

[limpid rapids]

Hell most ships are

[rancid parcel]

True

Ships are just retrofitted to allow for capsuleer use

[spare tangle]

dont you kinda need to nerf dreads to give carriers a role

[dusty ibex]

No

[rancid parcel]

No

Because if you nerf dreads to that extent

[dusty ibex]

You just need to make carriers not worse than everything else

[rancid parcel]

Then not only will marauders be better than carriers, but marauders will be better than dreads too

Which would be hilarious and sad

It’s already hilarious that a subcapital t2 battleship deals more dps and still gets better application than a carrier based capital vessel

[dapper ruin]

its not

[rancid parcel]

And more tank to boot

[sonic pebble]

You can push it about 1300+dps Kspace.

[rancid parcel]

And cheaper…

And more mobile…

And can go into hs…

[dapper ruin]

Yeah, that is fine

[limpid rapids]

The only class of ship expressly designed with Capsuleers first in mind were, as it happens, Assault Frigates, but they’re also made for normal command and control as well

Force Auxes took lessons learned from watching capsuleers using triage carriers to make an entirely new class of hull but are baseline first like the majority of other things

[rancid parcel]

I don’t think people quite understand how poorly carriers perform in a traditional combat role atm. A marauder literally deals more damage, gets better application, gets more tank, and still is a fraction of the cost. Oh and it takes a fraction of the sp and can’t be defanged either

A marauder can solo a carrier without breaking a sweat

That’s how bad carriers are right now

[sonic pebble]

agree...if you work your fleet correct...Marauders can be the anti drop on a cap in some situations.

The trade can worthwhile.

[dapper ruin]

A marauder will only solo a carrier, a dread should and would shred it

[rancid parcel]

Exactly

[spare tangle]

i meant more even if you buff carriers why use them over dreads/maraurders still

[rancid parcel]

because they would finally excel at their intended role; punching down

They provide small support

[sonic pebble]

Or larger grid control...IE moving around the grid on a wider scale than normal gameplay at the moment allows...but I am not sure if people are ready for that yet.

[rancid parcel]

If they remain weaker, more mobile, with less tank, but still cost a fair bit and are vulnerable to defanging, they should excel at their role of small ship support. Dreads are the meaty high damage high local tank ships that hunker down on grid

[limpid rapids]

While we’re at it, can we have Astrahuses actually reasonably threaten solo dreads again instead of ‘lol bring counter dreads or a ten man armageddon fleet’

[rancid parcel]

And also because carriers lack any kind of anticap options or ability to punch up, nor do they have the tank of a dread,

they are purely for small ship support

[rancid parcel]

Which the tradoffs I mentioned would be fine if they were actually good at that role, but they are literally worse than a marauder or haw dread

[sonic pebble]

I am not sure if we can reverse the Siege Green issue.

I get your point on that...but the current situation with them kind of kills it for smaller groups trying to start.

[limpid rapids]

Oh that issue predated Siege Green

SG just made it more pronounced

[spare tangle]

wait a dread can solo an astra? 😭

[sonic pebble]

Maybe a new module?
But I would think we would need to balance it around only one being able to be fit

[spare tangle]

i can understand a solo dread being able to like do Raitarus and athanors and jump bridges etc but an Astra feels like it should be able to hold its own

but then again all they would need is like.. 2 dreads instead of 1 probably even if its changed

[sonic pebble]

Why even bother with Armageddons when cost wise you can throw Oracles at the problem.

[rancid parcel]

Perfect skill nidhoggur with tech 2 fighters peaks at about 2.5-3k dps, with between t1 and t2 rage ham levels of application. A same haw dread can do almost double that in terms of damage AND it has more local tank AND it has anti capital options AND it’s cheaper AND it’s less sp intensive AND its immune to defanging AND IT GETS BETTER APPLICATION

[limpid rapids]

Because you’re not trying to out dps the reps, you’re trying to neut it out

[spare tangle]

i was thinking about HAW dreads when i was asking about needing to nerf dreads to give carriers their role as anti sub cap earlier

[limpid rapids]

You cannot out DPS the reps with the anti-cap missiles even max damage fit and fighters, and you can’t neut it out with anti-cap neuts

The only way to contest a solo dread with an astra is five to ten geddons with logi applying additional neuts, the dread pilot being a complete idiot, or counter dropping a dread

[rancid parcel]

Tbh a solo station isn’t meant to be alone and a one man fleet. They are meant as logistics hubs and force amplification to any assisting fleet on grid in a fight

They can defend themselves yes, but it is minimal capacity

[limpid rapids]

You have to commit multiple times the man power and a much higher exposure profile to contest. That’s the issue

[rancid parcel]

That’s the cost of structures ig

[limpid rapids]

Actually, it goes against the design philosophy CCP claims they want structures to be as force multipliers

[rancid parcel]

They are meant to be bulwarks, not easily pushed over like a comparatively big ship

[sonic pebble]

Thinks on it...what if a station had something like a fleet boost? Or AoE repair pulse?

[limpid rapids]

The current defensive gameplay for mediums especially is, that the best way to defend is to not defend and just drop a bunch more

[rancid parcel]

Fair

[limpid rapids]

Which goes directly counter to their reasons for the past several structure balance changes

[spare tangle]

i think your thinking too hard milint could you just make it so like a single dread cant stop the timer or something

[limpid rapids]

Which they were told by multiple people, myself included, would happen

[rancid parcel]

How would you make that a reality then? Higher damage requirements for structures?

[sonic pebble]

I was thinking along the lines of the "force multiplier comment"

But yeah...it should be a bit more tanky.

But also the Astrahaus is a weird spot because if someone has enough ISK...they just throw down more Astrahaus than you can kill. (I have seen it happen.) But then the smaller group with less ISK than maybe two Astrahaus...they get absolutely wrecked by Wardec operators.

[rancid parcel]

Wardecs are a dumb mechanic and easily abused

[sonic pebble]

Personally...I though the concept of using the POS starbase charters could have been a way to control station spam in highsec and lowsec...you go to null/WH space...no extra costs incurred.

But we are where we are...as it is.

[limpid rapids]

Increase defensive profile while also introducing a soft cap mechanic for how many structures can go up to disincentivize proliferation. Allow people to reasonably defend from bullshit non-committal ‘deploy so we can properly curbstomp you’ stuff

Thaddeus Reynolds had an excellent idea about making the soft cap being each system has a ‘logistics’ meter of a sort that determines how many structures can have asset safety and any deployed after that just don’t have asset safety, and you can tell which is which by some visual indicator or info panel demarkation, and you can see the logistics meter for a system in the map or a menu

It doesn’t stop others from deploying structures but disincentivizes hyper proliferation

Combine that with re-introducing some of the defensive pressure that’s been stripped from citas over the years and you both increase the number of people that will try to actually defend, and at the same time reduce the incentive to spam on both fronts

[rancid parcel]

Congrats, you only further widened the gap between rich multiboxers and not. Set a limit on characters or corps? People start making a ton of alts to bypass this limit

[limpid rapids]

Ah there we go

That’s the bit, logistics limit isn’t a hard stop on structures

It’s not something that says ‘oops its full’

[rancid parcel]

So many good ideas or balance caveats simply don’t work in eve online with how alts, multiboxing, and whatever else isn’t only allowed/feasible, but encouraged

[limpid rapids]

So I think you just saw ‘cap’ and immediately went to ‘it can’t work’ despite having explained it’s meant to be a soft cap but not something that fully prevents proliferation

The current proliferation and non-defense issue is a combination factor

[rancid parcel]

I’m aware, but if it has the potential for abuse people will abuse it

Or optimize the unknowns out of it

[limpid rapids]

So what, status quo forever?

[rancid parcel]

[limpid rapids]

Do you have a better alternative to propose, or something that could shore up the potential deficiencies?

[sonic pebble]

I had a similar concept...but I was more inclined to deploying infrastructure that people had to defend and protect. So as a group builds up the infrastructure of their space...there are weakpoints to attack.

The problem is we end up with concentration in stations.

The other problem is the concept of making a hard structure limit of a region or system...people will cheese claim them and put junk structures to stop someone expanding. [Kind of an RTS line of thinking...since alot of RTS/TBS/4X campaigns do this same mechanic to encourage people to expand and not turtle...but you can rush block building in those systems as well.]

I mean there is some ideas that could be implemented...it would work in an older EVE with 1 character only logins. But with the MB and Alts...not really possible.

Hence any attempt to hard cap/soft cap...players would just alt swarm regions and then lock out people from ever getting a foothold.

Personally I think deployable/attackable/hackable/siphonable structures are preferred.

but then the question of 23/7 gaming for defense/attack comes into play.

[rancid parcel]

Honestly not really. IMO as painful as structure bashing is, it’s tough to make it fair for both sides. Also again a structure isn’t meant to be a one man war fleet. It has minimal self defenses, which a lot can act like force amplification to a defending side since structures are purely defensive. For their price, immobility, and way to act as a logistics hubs they pay for that in other ways, like ref timers and damage caps.

If a single phoenix is sniping your astra, maybe go kill it or drive it off? Or do you want astras to be worth 10 bil now to make it fair?

[limpid rapids]

I don’t want it soloing a dread fleet, I want it able to tell a solo dread to fuck off

[sonic pebble]

I mean...we could go with an in system "Micro Sov" system...that connects to various infrastructure sites...but I am not sure if people would want to play that way. With Sov Mechanics already kind of being considered by some as a drag.

[rancid parcel]

If that dread is anticap fit, which it will be, it won’t be able to hit shit subcap.

[limpid rapids]

Because a solo dread on a structure is never just a solo dread, it’s a non-committal ‘deploy so we can grind your nuts into paste with the dread bomb’ statement

[rancid parcel]

So it’s a numbers problem then

[sonic pebble]

Yeah...enough to take down a single or small handful...1-5... or at least make them pay a little

So its not just an easy kill

[rancid parcel]

Why not tell everyone to log on with sbombers or something. Those can fuck up any solo dread

And counter drop? A dread bomb to kill bombers? lol

they wouldn’t do that

[sonic pebble]

In lowsec...uhhhh...i mean yes...but then again not full options since lowsec...outside of "Corrupted Space" doesn't allow full functional weapon options.

[gleaming anvil]

IMO, a shift of more defenses to the active defenses makes a good amount of sense for Structures

While they should not be a Solo a Fleet, a solo 1v1 dread fight should not be a solvable situation though imo

The immobility of an Astra I think more than makes up for the cost in terms of ability to fire and return fire

To say nothing of the cost differences for minimum viable product are not exactly too far off either, with dreads only edging them out slightly in terms of price

[sonic pebble]

Highsec will be the armageddon fleet problem.

[dapper ruin]

If you can't defend your structure against a solo dread, probs shouldnt have a structure?
If its the first timer that makes sense to where you might not be able to kill it, but you know the other timer. Have people ready

[gleaming anvil]

Especially with the significant decrease to the passive defense of the Astrahus in particular

[rancid parcel]

All it takes is a handful bombers to suck the cap out of a lone dread

[limpid rapids]

Pix, you’re doing that disingenuous crap.

[rancid parcel]

And again any small shit flies pretty much immune to said dreads anticap guns

[sonic pebble]

What about adding a turret module?

That would allow you to deploy POS turrets to the grid? Yes you can shoot back...but these can be destroyed.

Just brain storming a little.

Never understood why that hasn't been considered.

[limpid rapids]

If someone’s plinking you with a solo dread, its not a solo dread, and you know it

[rancid parcel]

Then why not go out there and fight it

[gleaming anvil]

A possible option, but I think CCP is still trying to distance themselves from POS code on the overall

[rancid parcel]

Nobody is asking you to have a bunch of supers and titans to counter drop it, all it takes is literally dictors, sbombers or other small stuff

And it easily gets overwhelmed. A single FVB steals 15,000gj from its capacitor, and if it can’t rep it’s fucked.

[sonic pebble]

True...they don't need to copy the POS code...but they could create an interactive asset system that uses the POS turret assets.

[rancid parcel]

They try to counter drop you? Good luck killing a couple frigates or stealth bombers that can literally covops cloak

[limpid rapids]

Which you can’t deploy in low

[rancid parcel]

Ah this is low

[sonic pebble]

Yeah...well non-corrupted low

[limpid rapids]

All of the threats of null with none of the defensive options

[rancid parcel]

that complicates things so no bombers or bubbles…

But a solo dread is still not an insurmountable challenge

[limpid rapids]

Hurt even further by the removal of structure void bombs

[gleaming anvil]

Which is what we are kinda talking about needs to be accounted for

[limpid rapids]

Actually they expresly removed structure bombs from medium structures full stop as well

[gleaming anvil]

Not insurmountable, but almost all LS options that can get around it are vulnerable to the loldreadbombdrop

Which primarily means that it comes down to N+1 gameplay

[rancid parcel]

true

push and pull in any space

everyone has their pile of crap they have to deal with sometimes if they get the short end of the stick

[sonic pebble]

Yeah...It would be a shame if the Pirate Insurgencies were allowed to roam more in lowsec. Might make that very interesting.

But alot of options are gradiated.
[Highsec-> Armageddon versus the Astrahaus...potential ABC ball.] Lowsec -> Dread...no defensive options because of "Empire Space Rules"...Lowsec Insurgency/ Nullsec/ Wormhole Space/ (And Pocheven)...all tools available.

[rancid parcel]

eve isnt fair

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[gleaming anvil]

Which is part of why stating that maybe making a change that will, by your own statements, not change much in Nullsec or Hisecto benefit Lowsec makes more sense

[rancid parcel]

on another note im not a fan of how multiboxing and alts in this game are so prevalent or even required for a lot of gameplay loops

[rancid parcel]

right

i hear that

i was assuming this was in J space or something hearing small astra group and solo dread :P

[sonic pebble]

Yeah if we balance for one area...it kind of shifts the Vinn Diagram of Problems into another sector.

[gleaming anvil]

Still happens sometimes in LS

Just most small groups that are long-time have learned it is pointless to launch much of anything because all the balance seems focused around Nullsec, sometimes only for convenience

But, it seems like it may give some healthier options there in LS

J-Space is about the only area of space this would maybe have a negative impact in on the overall, but plenty of options there as well so a solo-dread bash usually is not something to worry about unless you did not properly scout a lower class WH

[glossy nimbus]

and for this ceno have more DPS. and no any chances use it in armor.
its looks like bluedonut-wh-edition cry for this changes.

[ebon turret]

why do you even need structures in ls as a small group

[limpid rapids]

For a certain value of ‘small’

Even medium sized groups get pasted pretty regularly even if they try to defend

[glossy nimbus]

Zealot: Rate of fire bonus becomes a damage bonus, about the same damage but makes it better on cap

still havent 4 mid slots

[limpid rapids]

And it usually starts with driveby super to alpha the shields, followed by the solo dread to bait you into ‘lol form or you lose the structure, or form and we completely paste you with the waiting dread bomb’

[ebon turret]

why do you even need structures in ls as a ~~small ~~ medium group

[limpid rapids]

While those same groups doing it always complain about never having content because they overhunt their areas

Always fun that

[gleaming anvil]

Tether utility, avoiding regular station docking games, significant utility from service modules

Production increases etc

While nothing is strictly speaking a need

No group in any area of space strictly needs a structure either

Technically it can be all done with clever usage of logging off

Structures only provide significant convenience options in areas of space and enable far more options

Before we get into the non-mechanical utility of structures

[dapper ruin]

LS does have this wonderful thing known as NPC stations

much better than Structures beyond having to pay for corporate taxes

for an office

[gleaming anvil]

Limited office slots, not all services are available

But i even brought those up already or did you not actually read it much?

[dapper ruin]

What services do structures have that NPCs dont offer?

beyond moon mining

[gleaming anvil]

Not all NPC structures have all services

Not all have labs, not all have manufacturing etc

[sonic pebble]

Usually I find the removal of Rate of Fire bonuses to be more detrimental to overall DPS of a hull.

I have a Zealot fit at 828dps...953dps overheated.

It will probably lose capacity.

[dapper ruin]

And a structure isnt going to have all services either, so what?

[sonic pebble]

True NPCs also don't have reactions either

for stations

So there is some gaps of content and interactive materials

[gleaming anvil]

And?

once again, did you not actually read it?

[dapper ruin]

I read it. Just trying to understand why a small/medium group in LS has to have the ability to have a structure

[gleaming anvil]

...evidently you did not

since I said that already

[dapper ruin]

Didn't say a need. I said ability to have

[gleaming anvil]

I mean, they have the ability to have it

For a short time at least

[dapper ruin]

Which is their choice. If they wanna spend the isk and risk losing it, good for them

dont cry tho if its lost

[sonic pebble]

Player Stations also give free repairs...which does kind of alter some of the interplay with EVEs economy.

Back before Scarcity...you could only Compress on Stations or Rorquals.

So there was that factor.
Bonuses of manufacturing/reprocessing...stations do have some advantages.

NPCs have some different options.
The Pod situation has drastically changed from 2020...since all the jumpclone changes. People used to have to figure out where to pod park...because of the old mechanics. Now you can practically go to any NPC station and swap. Outside of Nullsec or WH space or player stations...you had to think where you would home base.

[gleaming anvil]

and who is crying?

I am advocating for a change that, by most people's admission, will not significantly effect other areas of space

And may make a difference in LS

It is no more crying that people complaining about any other mechanic or balance situation

[dapper ruin]

Not saying you were crying

just in general

[gleaming anvil]

Nor did I say you said I was crying

I asked who is?

And if it is irrelevant to anything in the discussion, why bring it up?

[gleaming anvil]

I am about more parity between NPC stations and Player structures on the overal

Several NPC stations could use a docking perimeter increase at the least still

[limpid rapids]

Worth noting parity= / =equilibrium

[sonic pebble]

True...sometimes you have problems from some directions because the collision model and the docking perimeter are offset in some station models.

Personally...I would like to see some lowsec stations...and some of the nullsec pirate stations allowing for reactions. So players for manufacturing capacity can access reactions outside of player controlled assets. (Omega Only)

[dusky sentinel]

You want to fix solo dread problems against medium structures? let an astra use standup shadows lmao

only those and balance out maybe the fighter squadron size/amount when used on an astra

[limpid rapids]

The solo dread issue’s more the primary manifestation of wider issues, but it’s the easiest one to point at.

The original launch version of the astra that could kill three or four dreads if fit for it before getting reinforced was overtuned, the unable to contest a single dread is too far down the opposite direction, and it swings back around to to other contestations as well but dreads are the most direct knock on point

[dapper ruin]

Is an astra, suppose to solo a dread tho? I feel like structures are there to amplify a defense fleet. Not be the defense fleet

[spare tangle]

i feel like an Astra should be able to solo a dread but not the Raitaru/athanor

[gleaming anvil]

I mean, against a solo dread, I think it is fair to have the Astra have the advantage in fighting it off or winning 1v1

hardly a defense fleet situation there, more of a 1v1 situation

[dusky sentinel]

standup shadows and balance it out that it takes like 3 sets of them, so it cost like 1.5B isk to defend it, or make it somehow more expensive, so you still have to invest in those to prevent that situation

also, since you know the station is loaded with fighters, it would be a good idea to fix the current loophole that allows you to remove fighters once the structure is already reinforced

simply don't allow for figthers to be abandoned once the structure is reinforced.

[limpid rapids]

Having actually used structures the last few years, fighters are locked in the hangar already

[dusky sentinel]

yeah i know, i reinforce at least 2 structures per day thanks.

but have yo uever tried to make them fly out and abandon them? then having a dst to pick them up?

that's how it's done now and it should be changed.

[limpid rapids]

Destroyable or stealable at that point

So don’t quite see that as a loophole

[spare tangle]

id be surprised if somebody steals the fighters when you decide exactly when to do it

[dusky sentinel]

you bring a DST even of your own corp, park it near your own reinforced structure, in the night/downtime when nobody is there. fly your figthers to your own tethered dst, abandon them, pick them up with the dst.

[dapper ruin]

Seems like a valid loophole tbh

[glossy nimbus]

Cenotaph

Ladar Sensor Strength reduced from 25 to 15.

Armor Hitpoints reduced from 5,000 to 3,500 (-1500).

Structure Hitpoints improved from 6,000 to 7,500 (+1500).

what a bullshit

litterly make ceno great for shield that used wh csm members from bluedonut and useless for any armour setups. great idea

[next elbow]

Why Confessor/Svipul got buffs to outgoing RRs instead of incoming?
When you spidertank confessors, you want to only switch the one taking damage into defensive mode, while others stay in Sharpshooter.

Now instead it is either dedicated confessor logi boats that stay in defense mode all their life, or full fleet of RR confessors swaps to defense mode to save the one confessor

[glossy nimbus]

"you can just delete this bullshit and write "because WH CSM fly on shield setups" (c)iBeast about cenotaph up in shield doctrine. nice

https://www.twitch.tv/ibeast_eve/clip/AbrasiveInquisitiveCougarKippa-dIgPCcyrIaWSK07e

[glossy nimbus]

because you cant make "incoming rr only from t3d" bonus. i mean without incoming from any other logi ships.

[next elbow]

you can make anything

and it receiving 33% more reps from guardian is not the end of the world

[ebon turret]

Ok let's say I have 10 confessors with 4 guns and 2 RRs

Before patch: confessor gets primaried, swaps to defensive, receives 18 eRRs

Now: confessor gets primaried, swaps to defensive, receives between 18-24 eRRs depending on how many allies swap, but they lose some dps (compensated by the 12.5% dps buff on confessor at max skills)

What you are suggesting: confessor gets primaried and goes defensive, receives 24eRRs from other confessors who also don't sacrifice any dps

Incoming RR buff would be insanely powerful and also not create competing incentives which is the entire design paradigm of t3cs where you have to choose what bonus you want at a specific time

Current patch means now everyone in a RR fessor fleet has to be aware of whether their allies are holding and consider whether or not they want to go defensive to rep harder or stay sharpshooter for dps. If it was incoming rep bonus, this design choice doesn't exist because there is no benefit to going defensive to rep.

[dusty ibex]

Con🅱️essor is looking very fun now

[ebon turret]

And yes, this doesn't account for having literally invincible confessors supported by guardians or whatever

Which would exist with incoming RR buff

[next elbow]

glad we are having a discussion

[next elbow]

there is a point between 0% and C6 Cataclysmic variable that is, in my opinion is balanced and interesting

[next elbow]

it is a fair point, however it feels like a dedicated logi (or hell, a dedicated confessor logi) will work better by permanently repping target, letting other confessors stay in sharpshooter mode.

Switching from sharpshooter for entire fleet will make that fleet relatively useless

• You can't reach targets you could anymore
• Your reps are not longer
• Your DPS is almost cut in half

This will (except for the dedicated logi confessors and primaried confessors) force everyone to play exactly as they played before

I adore confessor, I have flown it a lot, and I am thankful that it got extra DPS and MS that it needed.

However saying that RR will promote interesting fleet choices except for confessor dedicated logi is kinda weird.

I was hoping for confessor "logi" to be at least on par with Kiki (a T1 Destroyer), but it isn't. It just about surpasses deacon, for 5-10x the price and about the same tank (because fitting 6 top rack RRs punishes your PG and you can't fit 400mm plate, that Deacon usually can)

[dusky sentinel]

it's a DPS boat to begin with a supporting option, it makes sense for having to lose dps and speed in order to rep someone, also not the entire fleet need to switch to defense mode, just a few to rep, i don't think this change was intented to have it exclusevly as dedicated logi, you could bring deacons with you for that

your change to received reps, would make the confessor overly op without giving any sort of penalty

[next elbow]

received reps is basically extra resists that do not apply to local reps

[next elbow]

I know that it wasn't intended, and probably will be forgotten as a meme.

I am happy with speed/dps buff anyways

all in all, I think what would've fixed it for me, is for confessor in defense mode to get same RR range bonus as Kiki

[glossy nimbus]

why CCP?

[next elbow]

skills?

[glossy nimbus]

all 5 char

its 491 before patch i mean

and 458 now

zealot nerfed. wery powerfull ship whitout 4 mids

[dusty ibex]

Look at the alpha

DPS isn’t everything

[nocturne herald]

Thanks for the extra slot in edencom. Now can we use it as main weapon is heavy usage. Also we need more parts

[sullen osprey]

The damage was buffed

5% rate of fire is (1 / 0.75) = 33.3% bonus at level V
7.5% damage is (1 * 1.375) = 37.5% bonus at level V

[dapper ruin]

Ccp when we gettin direct blaster buffs?

[sullen osprey]

That's a bit more complicated because we would have to separate rails and blasters into entirely new groups (right now all hybrid weapons are in the same group) and also do tiericide on the weapons.

It's doable and we should do it, just other stuff is higher priority when it comes to balance at the moment.

[spare tangle]

was hoping the prospect would get another high slot to be able to fit 2 gas scoops a cloak and the probe launcher

[glossy nimbus]

idk. i see that numbers in old pyfa and current ingame fit tool.
maybe some bugs?

[sullen osprey]

I tested it and it seems fine to me

[worn dock]

@sullen osprey why the 16% dps nerf on maelstrom

doesn’t feel like much of a buff

[sullen osprey]

I set it to the same value as the Hyperion to be consistent. It already had a very large drone bay for a Minmatar ship as well, It now has the old Vargur slot layout and a utility high, it seemed very powerful in testing and it's a buff for Fleet usage (8 to 9 effective turrets of alpha strike). It might have been a bit crazy with 15% per level.

But if it still doesn't pick up in usage we can buff it further.

We'll give it the Myrmidon Navy treatment until it's good 😄

[dapper ruin]

Buff all things serpentis please? No bias at all or anything 😅😂

Daddy vindicator

[limpid rapids]

I saw y’all talk about carriers on the podcast

So, carrier buffs confirmed?

[sullen osprey]

Cannot say anything until the expansion previews drop

[torn escarp]

when's that

[gleaming anvil]

[sullen osprey]

https://youtu.be/9wtvXoXh0VU?si=EON0EbYKd01RmUuR

You'll hear more from us fairly soon(tm) though about the winter expansion.

[dusty ibex]

I have some dank leaks, the winter expansion will happen during winter.

[limpid rapids]

Oh hey I know this clip from that Sarah Zed video about chess cheating

[coral night]

So, I'd say, overall, the released ship balance changes are positive. I'm not so sure about the wide sweeping ones though. This is similar to how SS got reverted but had negative impacts to the FNI, vulture, Mino, and Rokh, making them even more oppressive.

About armor rig changes and advanced armor layering: That's a wide sweeping change that could impact something in an unknown way. There are already decently fast armor ships, from frigs all the way up.

The rail nerf is similar. Did ALL medium and large rail setups deserve to be nerfed? I think not. It seems like the FNI, Rokh, and Vulture (tanky rail boats) were the main issue. Now we need to do work to correct the rail using ships that got nerfed too hard.

[dusty ibex]

One thing I would like to note is the reason that armor does not have a large following in large fleets is the armor remote reps land at the END of the cycle instead of the BEGINNING like with shield.

The speed and damage was secondary to this issue.

[coral night]

All other changes though seem pretty good. I'll highlight a few I particularly liked:

The ESS changes: The meta shakeup by allowing in T3D but preventing Marauders allows for different combat while also lowering the barrier to entry (you don't need to worry about going up against Marauders).

The FNI changes. Yes, this ship was oppressive. Making this change allows other options to enter the meta.

While not the change I wanted, I appreciate the love to the Nag.

[jagged panther]

Man. Think about how cool it could have been to have CCP actually interacting regularly in this thread without getting bombarded by complete nonsense any time they step in

[glossy nimbus]

hm. looks like i have some troubles with that. my bad. sry about it.
but why zealot cant have 4 mids?
also about mael. while you want make it brawler, why damage bonus? damage bonus more for arty. why not rof?
if you want boost it as arty, why withot range bonus? (but in patch notes you talk about brawler)
i mean arty want 2 damage and optimal. 800mm want rof and fallof.

[quiet umbra]

The marauder changes are appreciated. However, I’m curious why combat recons weren’t excluded from the ESS instead of marauders?

To be clear, incase I’ve referenced the wrong ship class, the recons with D-scan immunity.

[glossy nimbus]

beacuse most ppl cry about marauders and noone talk about recons. meanwhile recons is a much more serious problem and is causing more pain in ass

[quiet umbra]

Well, the implication is that Rapiers would be allowed in the ESS, but not the Huginn - for example.

But yeah it seems as though Marauders got a lot of the flak. Which I certainly contributed toward

[dire flume]

Zealot can't have four mids because it would be way too strong. It only having 3 mids is a balancing factor, just like the Retribution having 2.

[dire flume]

As someone who has regularly done ESS stuff, Marauders are much more of a problem than recons. Recons are easy enough to deal with, a Marauder isn't.

[glossy nimbus]

idk. i have more problems with recons. you cant deal with curse for eg.

while you can have td in small fleet to turnoff marauder

[dire flume]

You can deal with a Curse much easier than a Marauder. A Curse slides into your Bellicose you can deal with that, a Vargur does? Good luck.

I do agree that in certain situations a recon may be more tough to deal with than a Marauder, but on the whole, they are not.

[quiet umbra]

What about when the Vargur follows the Curse ?

Or, more commonly, a Huginn

[jagged panther]

I mean, if you can handle the curse/huginn, but you can't handle the vargur.... And you also couldn't handle the vargur alone...

The conclusion seems obvious to me, right?

The marauder is the tough part to deal with, in that scenario

I honestly didn't think they needed to be banned from ESS, for what its worth

The no-cloak zone was enough to counteract the actually mechanically problematic stuff

[dire flume]

I mean to be fair I'm happy because the common response to me stealing an ESS in FRT space with a 30 man CyFI fleet was 25-30 vargurs/golems+support

[dusty ibex]

Vargur can’t follow curse anymore

[dusty ibex]

Bruh there are like maybe 3 ships that can fight curse + Hugin combo

Recon V pilots in both and ur gonna fall over hard

[jagged panther]

Pretty much anything with missiles/projectiles/drones that doesn't have to be at 0 right away to deal damage

Curse/huginn deal not much dps

I've fought dual curse and dual huginn before and either forced them off or killed one

In 100mn t3

It's a nasty combo if supported, but alone the recons are subpar combat ships for many things. Damps on a lach can make you completely ineffective, but it still doesn't deal much damage and if you are a drone ship you can still win even

And even vs damps you can just.... go to 0 and kill him

[quiet umbra]

I suppose the perspective I was taking was that of a player who only has one account. Of course , there is an argument to be made about making friends. But in the case where one of the two ships (Combat Recon or Marauder) is going to be removed anyways, why not just remove the D-Scan immune ship that really enables the peak of oppression that marauders displayed ? You can still bring your Rapier, but at least people can see you now as you are exiting warp and taking the gate.

Hence my question

[dusty ibex]

Yes, but if they get webs on you it gets very difficult to mitigate the curse

It is avoidable

100mn T3C does funny things

But against non zoomy bois, the Hugin/Curse combo is lethal. Next to zero DPS but once something is neuted out (now that the Vargur is gone) it basically just falls over and dies.

Realistically you need to manage your range properly and kill webs fast in order to maintain separation and transversal and then keep the combat probes cycling to pick up the curse/Hugin coming in and instantly pull off the warp in point when they show up

[sonic pebble]

Looks over...and no one is going to talk about the Confessor getting a signature shrink in that same defense mode?

Oh and by the way...if it decides to run amok in C13s...now you have given them a self-sustaining capacity. A ship that swap down into 22m signature...and just putter around. So now you can mimic a logi frigate.

Did someone think this through a little bit? Because I can see a few problems that will snowball.

[sonic pebble]

Please don't...Hyperion was played very different.

[limpid rapids]

you mean the sig reduction all t3ds get in defense mode?

[sonic pebble]

No...it applies differently.

Two the T3Ds..only MWD sig reduce.
Two of the T3Ds...baseline sign reduce.

Confessor and Jackdaw baseline sig reduce.
Svipul and Hecate...MWD sig reduce

[limpid rapids]

svipul

you are technically correct

[sonic pebble]

sorry...a long day

[limpid rapids]

still though, I think you overestimate that impact as a given, when you're trading both speed and damage potential for that sig reduction by being in defense mode

you are making a choice for that

[sonic pebble]

Confessor can get down to 13m.

Svipul with MWD on is 34m.

Confessor on MWD is over 60.
But most people will angle for the AB...to keep that sig tanking advantage.

Or they will balance sig...and Go Snake.

[limpid rapids]

confessor with halos maybe

[sonic pebble]

That is where I do have some concerns especially in the ESS.

[limpid rapids]

but the investment for halos at that point makes it an even bigger target

especially in ESS scenarios

you're focusing on the edge case of edge cases again

which again, do need to be noted

but you don't build all balance around edge case of edge case

most people aren't going to be running high grade halos for ESS running or for confessor PVP generally

[sonic pebble]

Snake Confessor can get to pretty small signatures...even without all the goodies.

Svipul will be interesting because yes its faster...but its align leaves much to be desired.

Confessor can get up to speed comparably.
We will have to consider that more carefully.

I personally think they shouldn't be in the ESS...because there is too many things that could tweaked.

yes the T3D will be more expensive than a Stabber in ESS thieving...but its going to be really zippy on that front.

The Confessor and Svipul will become the "fox in the hen house" in some fits...they are able to hit 8000+m/s

The Jackdaw...is okayish...but its bonus is kind of backwards for its hull...being a velocity and interia modifier. 4400m/s possible.

The Hecate is last. 4321m/s.

I am just saying.
Hecates bonuses are useless in the ESS.
Jackdaws are "marginal" since they modify baseline stats. But not great either.

Svipul and Confessor have 66% MWD/AB speed bonus.

Thats not "edge case" thinking...thats immediately understanding a "no brainer" meta point of interest. If someone wants to steal in the ESS...they have their speed demons pretty much on loan from CCP.

Now...if the Jackdaw got some AB/MWD speed boost.

Or maybe the Hecate...you might have a situation a free for all...and that then starts to focus on the weapons of the ships themselves.

[limpid rapids]

under more normal circumstances defense mode fessor is 43m sig, which is small, but targettable

to get to those speeds you aren't getting some of the other benefits though

[sonic pebble]

43m is enough for some stuff to start missing especially with sig tanking. So basically its going to make Cruisers trying to get them a pain.

probably it will be Vagabonds/Stabbers to try to chase.

Or missile ships.

I just don't think this was thought through.

We will probably have discussions on tackle capable cruisers to try to stop it....but that will have ramifications outside of the ESS.

[limpid rapids]

for the record

you cannot activate MWD in range of thee ESS bubble

so your 8km thing doesn't workout how you think it does

[sonic pebble]

Yes...I was doing AB only.

I have been inside ESS with stabbers...I know how it works.

[limpid rapids]

alright, oversized AB, takes two weeks to get up to speed, you die to a sneeze

if you're grabbed at all? you're dead\

full stop

and you die even more readily than an oversized AB stabber that gets pinned down

[sonic pebble]

And that is the trade...but you are also not factoring on tactics/strategy...teamwork.

Or someone just robs the lower value ESS. Much more access if you think on it.

Hence why I think the ESS needs a Web Field...when you link to it. De-link...it stays residual for oh...30-50secs...before it wears off...inside the bubble of course.

Or maybe a bit past the edge...but meh.

[limpid rapids]

so.... this still ends up well into the field of edge case of edge case

and the cost of your build enters the billions quickly to even approach this

with the returns being fairly meager unless you REALLY strike it on an undefended gigabank, which... won't happen statistically, while your loss profile is very large

[gleaming anvil]

so...with Sleipnir and HG-Snakes...a Confessor with a hot running A-Type AB in Propulsion mode and full overdrive and auxiliary thrusters hits...7,699 m/s

You can go officer of course, or mutated on the AB though I guess to change some of this around

[sonic pebble]

Well its not the WH variants...but...I still don't think this was thought out.

Depending 350M max for the ship....but the Implants maybe a bit more...but that can be tuned down to a reasonable level.

We know what is possible...now its just negotiating price point/stat adjustment and that is where we go. Its the main problem with EVEs balance

You tinker with the ship...something unintended happens.
You tinker with the modules...something unintended happens.
You add a new mechanics...something unintended happens.

You can draw out the entire concept with a blueprint...and someone will do something unexpected. And if someone has reservations because they see that problem before it becomes really big...umm.

[sonic pebble]

mutated will get you about 8830m/s for Confessor. 8890m/s Svipul.

So lets say you use that Slepnir as your "catapult" you could get those two even faster.

More like 8900m/s

sorry for Svipul

[gleaming anvil]

with a mutated AB, it can really get hauling

Which AB you mutating?

God rolled A-Type can get up to 9.5 km/s

But, ofc, this is built entirely for speed and is a bad idea lol

[sonic pebble]

I was using Gist-A

But the most edge case would be a God Rolled Nija...throws a Svipul to 10km/s...before you even have a Slepnir.

Yeah...bad idea...but getting some cheaper fits from those points now would could see where things get interesting.

Thank God T3D can't fit 100MN for now.

[gleaming anvil]

CCPls let us fit Giganewton AB to the Nightmare

[sonic pebble]

I have been eyeballing them in testing...its not as impressive as I was hoping.

Maybe a little extra speed bonus for Sansha hulls would be nice.

[limpid rapids]

still though, abyssals areen't a 'lol easily get very high easy to fit thing'

you're burning through material to get those good rolls

or paying an exorbitant premium

even compared to other things

so it's... really not a 'changes the entire game' thing, and... again... edge case of edge case still

[dapper ruin]

it's milint. He doesnt over estimate anything. He over analysis on a single case

its a you know this change for that ship. Well go do it in this specifc wh and you get this crazy thing because im fitting it specifically to create this crazy thing

[sonic pebble]

And what if it allows a one to steal more effectively from the Reserve in a Key situation?

You know...looks over at the Eris.

This interdictor destroyer skill...now seems pretty pointless...since we now have the plate armor layering skill

20% mass penalty reduction per skill level.
Just seems now like a filler skill.

[dapper ruin]

Who cares

[warped pawn]

Armor layering is 5% per level, so max -25%
Adv armor layering is only 2% per level, so max -10%
Combined they do max -32.5%
The eris TRAIT (and not skill) is still needed to remove all that remaining 67.5% mass.

[elder hollow]

holy crap did milint finally admit thst his fits are fucking nonsense?

👀

[steep needle]

Entirely accidental

[glossy nimbus]

#shutupmilint

[nimble sage]

#ceasethycrazedramblingmilint

[sonic pebble]

No...that the AB bonus on Sansha ships are not as impressive as they sound. Even with Abyssal Kit in play. I was also testing them with overprop as well. 100% for AB isn't really ground breaking. And then you have to factor in the align time issues.

125% maybe seems a bit more impressive.

[elder hollow]

its the same align time addition as an mwd, and an afterburner with double stats is amazing

you get almost all of the upside of an mwd without any sigbloom, far lower cap use, no cap capacity or regen loss, and a load of fitting

overprop succubi are an extremely common staple for escape frigs

overprop phantasms are very common for ess, stellar deployments, and reasonably popular in pvp

[dusty ibex]

Bro just said Sansha ships are underwhelming

Don’t even need to over prop a Phantasm to go zoom zoom

[sonic pebble]

Eris is 1M kg mass...flat...so its pretty easy to spot any changes.

At Max Interdictor its Mass Addition Penalty is 0.00.

1M flat.

Now an ENI though...since its mass penalty adjuster is 15% per level.

Maxed out...and Abyssal 1600mm -> ~232000kg. 11280000 ->~11512000kg mass total.

Your penalty...0.10 sec align time adjustment.

Versus the old 0.21 sec align time adjustment.

So in a weird way...an Eris Benefits from the new skills...if your Interdictor Skills are sub V...but no benefit if Eris is fully skilled. And in theory...it is Negative Numbers. But the system is just going to say 0.

The ENI on the other hand gets a pretty powerful advantage. That does hit a limit...about 25%...but the new skill further shaves into that.

The other issue I have is this the Old Armor Rigs speed penalty. [Which applied to the hull base speed.] Was also a way to keep some Armor Brick fitting in check. Think of it as the difference of a person running with a fanny pack vs a person trying to run with a 55Gal Drum.

With the Agility Change...it has seriously opened up some interesting holes...and maybe some problems.

Its allowed the smaller ships to bulk with EHP without penalty or minor penalty.

If you actually look IRL...if you add armor to any vehicle its speed and handling decreases. I am okay with the Agility Penalty via Rigs.
However, I am not okay with there not being a penalty to baseline speed via Plates. Further compounded by the new skill as well.

Again...back to the fanny pack and the 55 Gal drum runners are now moving at the same speed now. And you can see where this issue is now manifesting especially in smaller ships where they can move at their max skill baseline hull speed with armor. [Which benefits Snake Implant users alot.] If you turn on the MWD its now penalized...kind of like penalizing the fanny pack and 55 Gal Drum runner for wearing a coat.

[elder hollow]

in theory it is not negative numbers

because its not a subtractive operation

its a mutiplicitive one

1m x (1 x 0) is the same as 1m x (1 x 0 x 0.9)

and irl adding mass does produce lower speed for the same thrust

as equilibrium acceleration against drag is lower

[limpid rapids]

To a point, scale changes this

Smaller military ships often have lower maximum speed than larger ones because of differences in power plant and screw configuration

[elder hollow]

thats why i said for thr same thrust

[limpid rapids]

Oh, so you did

Still its one of the things that annoys me with EVE ships

[elder hollow]

comparing a 50cc lawnmower to my audi is not a fair comparison

[limpid rapids]

At least for gameplay

Though I get it being a balance consideration

In lore it is ofc more complicated but this is about game balance lol

[elder hollow]

i mean they have an ok ish approximation of mass and inertia

amarr ships get less of an align time hit from prop mass addition because rhey genrally have the lowest average inertia

on thier ships

[limpid rapids]

Oh yeah definitely

[sonic pebble]

If I tried to armor tank lets say a Firetail with the old Rigs.

Just a 5MN MWD I....and Syndicate 200mm...and Trimark Pump Mk II (x3)

2.64-Legion Update. 6K+ EHP...5.62s align...3397m/s
vs
2.63-Legion 6K+ EHP... 5.01s align 2988m/s

I am just showing where there is implications to this combo change.

Overheated MWD I with an abyssal plate.

2.64- 4920m/s
2.63- 4334m/s

Baseline Hull speed
2.64- 512m/s (only agility penalty...which can be worked around.)
2.63-452m/s (because of rig penalty)

Thats not an insignificant jump in speed.

And this has implications all up and down the tech tree. Its more noticeable in the Sub Caps...especially now with Frigates and Destroyers.

I think plates need to be looked at...where they can affect the baseline speed of a ship. If its percentage based...the BS hulls are not going to be as effected as much. Lets say...10%.
100m/s - 10m/s penalty....vs. 500m/s- 50m/s penalty. And you can adjust those penalties to each class of armor plate. So you also deter/penalize over plating as well.

The Armor Layering skills should by their existence then help reduce those penalties a bit...not all the way...but enough that it helps performance.

[dapper ruin]

That's literally what the skills do?
Plate adds mass
Armor Layering and Advance Armor Layering reduce the mass added by plates

Armor Layering 5% per level = 25%
Advance Armor Layering 2% per level = 10%

[sonic pebble]

I was making the argument that the baseline hull speed needs a speed penalty if you have armor plates involved...currently you can run around with larger plates and no penalty to your baseline hull speed.

I was making the argument for the speed penalty to be a very simple number 10%...because its less likely to hit Larger hulls...BS->Caps with a Brick. Whereas the Old Armor Rig Penalties which did affect your baseline hull speed...would have implications to anything you fit.

Currently there is no penalty for having armor on your ship...UNLESS you turn on your MWD or AB. Does that sound right?

Which is one of the reasons why everyone wanted to use Shields...especially on already slow hulls.

before this patch.

[dapper ruin]

baseline speed does not need to be reduced

[elder hollow]

firetails dont use trimarks

they use bulkhead

or cdfe

so this is irrelevant

3.3km/s for a frig is not fast

[sonic pebble]

But it should be a counterplay to keep certain things from happening.

Frigates....100-200mm armor...okay no problem...minimal 5% speed penalty...or less. but if you throw 400mm it should be around 10% speed penalty....but for a Cruiser that would be nothing.

You are going to see overplating in some classes of ships due to this recent change.

The reason why armor fits were not getting as much interest was to max out armor meant you had a speed trade off.

Now balance wise most ships that were shield concentrated were already slow baseline. But that kind of gets muddled when you get mixed system. [Minmatar] into the mix.

I am not against the agility change for the rigs...that seems reasonable.

But I am questioning the sensibility for a ship with plates on it...even over sized plates not getting any penalty to baseline speed. [And only speed penalties if you turn on an MWD or AB]...if the plates did have a speed penalty it would at least bring some balancing factors in.

[sonic pebble]

And that isn't a T2 or factional...or abyssal MWD I am mentioning...just a plane jane MWD I.

I can see the implications to this.

Which also feeds into some overprops too...probably not that viable...but would make them a bit tanker as well.

[elder hollow]

frigs dont use t2 mwd

they use quad lif

so that is irrelevant once again

there are no implications to this as the scenario is not what players do

overprpships almost never used trimarks either

so again irrelvant

[dusty ibex]

This constant barrage of attacks on my sole remaining brain cell is becoming overwhelming.

[sonic pebble]

Quad LiF.
2.64 - 4960m/s
2.63-4372m/s

Abyssal Quad LiF
2.64-5632m/s
2.63-4960m/s (speed point repeats in the data) (so now a Non-Abyssal Quad LiF can do this speed in 2.64)

[sullen osprey]

Propless, 400mm plate 3x trimark slicer with scram+web, or dual web, is now OP

[sonic pebble]

Do you have Snake on that?

[sullen osprey]

You'd do amulets most likely

if any

[dusty ibex]

High grade amulets and officer modules ofc

[sonic pebble]

Are you sure sir...because you can make a 11K Slicer that will be pretty deadly in the 10km range. [Granted its probably only going to be seen in FW]

13km Stasis Webs overheated.

[worn dock]

this is mostly because of hydrodynamics, and so does not apply to spaceships

[sonic pebble]

If you did Amulets its 15K

[ebon turret]

The walls will continue until the last brain cell yields

[dusty ibex]

[gleaming anvil]

I Special Summon Three Confessor Tokens in Defense Mode, then combine them to XYZ Summon Number 29986: Legion

And then attack your brain cell directly

[sonic pebble]

You can also tinker with the Slicer in ways to either increase speed...tank...damage.

If you go snake you are about 718m/s to 821+m/s (+ = any event booster) I went Dual Web + 400mm + 200mm. 11K.

If I go Amulet. 575m/s - 658+m/s 15K and 15K EHP.

You couldn't do that before yesterdays patch.

Hence why I do think it needs a little reconsideration with the plates especially.

Oh and that slicer has 3.22 align either way.

[elder hollow]

i too buy highgrade snakes for my propless slicer

for a literal miniscule increase in performance

[worn dock]

fc this slicer is burning at me at 800m/s

what should I do in the 45 seconds before it gets here

[dusty ibex]

Ahhhhh ma brain

[worn dock]

I think I'll go make a sandwich maybe

then I'll scramkite it to death

(I don't even have a scram but it has no prop so lol)

[sonic pebble]

Well...at least you can now just slap a warp disruptor on it...

or a scram

hence why I said...you will probably only see that near a beacon in FW

And once everyone knows what you have in a pod...they will absolutely go crazy.

Web+ Scram/Disrupt makes more sense in my head

Probably a Neut in the utility high

You can...but only cap stab if its abyssal

so probably too expensive anyways

[dapper ruin]

I dont think ive ever put a plate on a frig except for a punisher as hard tackle

[elder hollow]

cap stability for pvp

[dapper ruin]

Also resist and reppers

[elder hollow]

ahh ive identified the problme

milint doesnt play the game

[dapper ruin]

Or maybe even a assault frig?

Ope, who woulda guessed

[dusty ibex]

It is situationally good to be cap stable in PvP. There are a massive uh 5 fits where it is good

[worn dock]

if I'm not cap stable how will I survive my frigate fights that last 30 seconds

[dusty ibex]

I love the cap stable fits. They evaporate

Woooosh

Except for the regen Vargur and the 100mn Loki, and the meme Vagabond, cap stable doesn’t work.

[sonic pebble]

Well...15K EHP frigate is kind of funny for a T1.

[sullen osprey]

it also dies to a solo 1 week old lml condor

(after 3 minutes)

[sonic pebble]

I hope its about 50km away.
Probably would dip anyways.

If it was ontop of the beacon...probably wouldn't be a day for the Condor.

[dapper ruin]

Its not milint. Youre just an idiot who doesnt understand the game because all you do is try to make a stupid fit and then balance around that

[elder hollow]

15k isnt alot btw just fyi

and its not t1

[warped pawn]

No ? Max speed is when drag force is equal to thrust force.
Drag force is ONLY function of speed (quadratic and linear, in Eve linear only) so max speed depends only on drag factor and thrust.
What mass changes is the acceleration. At 0 speed, no drag, so a = thrust/mass.

[dusty ibex]

Well so the thing is Eve uses submarine physics bc it is really a submarine game

I think in like cargo ships they have a different top speed loaded and un loaded just with how much more the engines have to work to move the load so maybe although the theoretical top speed is the same loaded/unloaded the engines can’t physically provide enough power or they’d be over worked to push through waves which would be the drag force.

[ebon turret]

Can we delete abyssals just so milint can never use them in one of his stupid hypotheticals about how something is broken because of some edge case that nobody except him has considered that actually means bricked plates with red mass rolls are actually good because they gain more from armor layering or some other such nonsense

[dusty ibex]

I mean not to take millints side but mass bricked plates are good for rolling wormholes

Which is about all they’re good for

[sonic pebble]

I wasn't even Abyssals...just K space.

[sonic pebble]

since we have a mass reduction...that kind of gets a little more problematic...maybe a good thing for WH PvP...not good for trying to keep the intruders out.

Hmm...looks over at the mass entangler...I hope they cross checked that.

[queen orchid]

https://tenor.com/view/pumped-up-hype-gif-13746267

[dapper ruin]

Not really. Because you can just not train those skills on your chars you have to roll the hole with.

[sonic pebble]

On paper a skill is to enhance gameplay...not create another...don't take this to exploit a mechanic gameplay.

[queen orchid]

Wait

Skills are now* exploits?

[dapper ruin]

What? Milint, this makes less sense than your incoherent rambles.

Its extremely easy to just not train the skill

If you are so concerned about wh rolling

[queen orchid]

@sonic pebble what is your issue

With the changes

[rancid parcel]

#buffcarriers
#bufffighters

this post made to you by the resident carrier autist

[queen orchid]

Autists*

More than one of us

[rancid parcel]

[gleaming anvil]

Fighters and Carriers do indeed need some significant help

[rancid parcel]

im gonna keep saying it despite the "reeeees" of some certain people who believe that carriers are in a strong position right now, but even a simple fighter application reversion would make carriers infinitely better.

[sonic pebble]

Then why did the skill even need to exist...politely said?

If you are just going to tell people to either not train it for alts...or if they are going into Wormhole Space.

That shouldn't be the answer...don't train it.

[worn dock]

you can choose to train it or not

many people will find it worth training

because they do not base their gameplay primarily around a few percentage points of plate mass for rolling wormholes

[dapper ruin]

because it reduces the mass plates add even further. Which is a good thing overall

[queen orchid]

And additional 10% at lv5

[rancid parcel]

100% plate and extender bonus to carriers when 🥺
fighter application nerf reversion when 🥺

if dreads are the active reppers, why not let carriers be the buffer tankers?

https://tenor.com/view/conspiracy-charlie-day-crazy-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-qanon-gif-23738584

[warped pawn]

because it was too oppressive.

you stopping the spam when 🥺

[rancid parcel]

Never 🥺

[warped pawn]

Then you have your answer.

[rancid parcel]

I’m not advocating for a return of sky net at all either, that sounds like it can go die in a hole

But why is it a haw dread gets better application (and damage to boot) than a literal carrier I will never know

[warped pawn]

you are not advocating for anyuthing. You are spamming, without a single argument.

that's pollution.

[rancid parcel]

Sure I can go over some of my points again thanks for asking

[warped pawn]

I c

[rancid parcel]

dreads have more tank
dreads deal more damage
dread hulls are cheaper
dreads are cheaper to skill into
dreads cant be defanged like a carrier
dreads have better anti-sub performance
dreads have anticap options
dreads get better application

marauders deal more damage
marauder hulls are cheaper
marauders are cheaper to skill into
marauders get better application
marauders are more mobile
marauders can enter high sec

Why is it that carriers get the short end of the stick in so many aspects compared to dreads? I can understand if you want dreads to be the siege weapons and carriers to act as long range strike and force amplification in combat in exchange for not being able to stack up against a dread, but they can’t even do that well since haw dreads outperform them in their intended small craft role. Not to mention even marauders can outperform carriers. I can get the concerns with them returning to feeling too oppressive, but there is a balance where a ship can be strong but not oppressively so…

Or maybe do a complete pivot and move them away from a combat role, make them a capital ewar and support platform. Even with conduit and cmjd they had added recently it’s almost like ccp is trying to go in that direction of a support based capital rather than a traditional combat role, but they still feel like they’ve been poorly shoehorned into their current role and then get outperformed by their dread cousins and marauder subcaps in all but the most niche situations. (Like a conduit drop)

[nimble sage]

Holy shit bro still yapping about carriers

[rancid parcel]

I’m a yapper

I’m sad there’s not more yapping happening here

:(

Really thought that would stir up more yapping but only one person responded

[rancid parcel]

I shall be back to yap another day

[worn dock]

https://tenor.com/view/masters-of-the-universe-skeletor-mot-u-gif-23595861

[dusty ibex]

Nah let him yap, eventually he will wear CCP down.

[fleet mesa]

All the problem with carriers came from absolutely different tracking / damage from fighters vs drones version. Ridiculous application damage (both dps and alpha) made them useless in PvP at all
Great solution would be to either add some class of fighters for both light and heavy that could work better with smaller ships and heavier - expand range of application and damage.

Another big thing is plate / shield extenders or repairer/boosters - it’s a matter of balance because basically outcome of fights is:
initial ehp + recovered enp - damage received
Based on that all fights designed for some fight time. Carriers in this case play not the main role unfortunately 🙁

[dire flume]

July 14th, 2026

[sonic pebble]

Maybe a little splitting of the fighter squads power and capabilities.

[rancid parcel]

people tried to work around this by using SSFs in place of lights, but ccps response was to nerf them even further.

golly gee i wonder why people were using the anti-drone and anti-fighter fighters against actual ships even with the gargantuan -70% damage penalty instead of the “light fighters” which are meant for actual ships? And what does ccp do in response to this? Nerf the ssf fighters even more from a -70% damage penalty to -95% damage penalty.

[fleet mesa]

Just imagine if CCP made possible to use instead of fighters on carriers actual frigates and destroyers (t1/t2). It would be the same effect as if you launch multibox but with single window using typical carrier mechanics.
I’d love to see that:

1. You take and fit ships
2. Put them in squadron
3. Manage them as regular squad, but for players they will look like regular ships (with slightly dumber behavior)

Super Carrier with 5 squads of bombers 😍

[spare tangle]

Just make carriers the solo players multibox platform

Hel warps to asteroid field drops 9 Exhumers and a porpoise and just multiboxes from 1 account gg ez

[warped pawn]

what about carriers being dockable, with the following limits :

1. max 5 players docked for carriers, 15 for super
2. only docking granted for chars in fleet
3. can't dock when carrier or ship subject to gate-prevention (scripted HIC)
4. size limit to frigate or destroyer for carrier, BC for super
5. no service present in carrier to repair, but can refit.

[spare tangle]

feels like if you dont allow atleast cruisers and like 20 people it wouldnt get used

bringing like 5 kikimoras doesnt.. do much if you can bring 20 people in cruisers back to the fight after then it could atleast bring a decent ammount of people over

[worn dock]

what would be the advantage of docking vs the existing conduit and refit mechanics?

hiding what ships you’re flying for a few seconds?

[spare tangle]

id assume just being able to refit and stuff without needing to worry about getting shot while refitting i guess

[worn dock]

if something can kill you in a few seconds while refitting then it can probably also kill your carrier

carriers are not good

seems like a dubious benefit for a lot of dev work

[warped pawn]

The goals is to give "carriers" more of a projection role. The carrier would STILL have access to its present fighters, but would be given a fleet projection (more like wing projection) allowing to extract or refit them. The wing (typically, alts) could help with what the carrier can't handle.
That would be a middle solution between "Hello, my carrier can't handle a single tackle" and "hello, carriers are super oppressing", while also fitting the real life carrier roles, and not making the carrier useless in group (since they have fighters).

maybe add also "100% increase to the number of docked players per level" to the "capital jump portal generation" skill ? So up to 25 for carrier, 75 for super. Maybe too strong.

[worn dock]

you can already refit off a carrier

and you can use conduit to jump your alts into and out of battle if you want

I don't see what this adds other than a lot of dev work

[spare tangle]

if you want alts might as well actually just do this

[desert adder]

You know what the game need? More projection

[worn dock]

real and true

[rancid parcel]

😭

[coral night]

I like the sentiment of this idea.

Really though, the annoying part about roaming around in nullsec is that first, you have to get all your friends you want to roam with out there in the first place. Then, if they have to log off early because of real life conflicts, you have no choice but to leave them stranded. Then, when they die, if they can reship, they still have to burn back to you by themselves. They have a low chance of surviving. Without a nearby place to reship, refit, and death clone to, it allows defenders a way better advantage.

So, what if carriers could have double the ship maintenance bay , can cloak in space without being decloaked by a mobile observatory, and have the ability to have people death clone and jump clone to the carrier, provided that clone ability had restrictions like -100% lock speed for 1 hour after the clone jump?

This at least would allow groups to plan a roam ahead of time by allowing everyone to death clone to the carrier. The carrier would cloak up, and people would wait out their jump clone penalty timers. Then, the carrier could decloak, pass out assembled ships, and the roam could happen.

[rancid parcel]

i actually agree to giving carriers a bigger smb

no idea why carriers cant carry more than a dreadnought

[spare tangle]

lowkey don't think dreads should have a SMB at all outside like the Caiman where its basically a carrier/dread hybrid

[worn dock]

many years ago dreads didn't have SMB

CCP added it as a qol thing I guess

carriers were heavily used in pvp back then too

before the carrier/fax split

when spider rep carrier blobs with sentry drones murdered subcaps

so I guess ccp was like "poor dreads, better give them something"

now it's the opposite where carriers are useless lmao

people will cry if you take their dread smb away though

[rancid parcel]

its a great qol thing, but we dont need to nerf dreads to make carriers good

if something is underperforming the best case is to buff it rather than nerf everything else

[warped pawn]

nah, mobile observatory should still work if you are AFK.

[gleaming anvil]

I mean, the best way would still be to remove HAW imo but, I doubt that is happening lol

people like HAW too much and seem to find HAW a lot of fun, so probably a good thing for the health of the player count to keep them

[fleet mesa]

Where did you read about exhumers?!
Right now you have fighter - they do some damage, what would be bad to have instead of fighters frigs/destr? Actually they do roughly the same damage as squad of fully fitted frig for ~30m.

[desert adder]

Ok but what if you just lived closer to your enemy and not 5 region deep of blues?

[queen orchid]

Then they may have to pvp

[dusty ibex]

PvP in my mining simulator?

[dapper ruin]

That statement hurts my head

Da fuq

[coral night]

Hey Big Amarr. So what I was saying is that this would be intended to accommodate a small gorilla group to basically live deep within hostile null space. Provided they could sneak the carrier in with spare reships, it would allow for multiple nights of harassment of the locals in the same area.

In this case, you literally can't live closer to your enemy because there are no stations for you to dock in.

[dapper ruin]

Why not just add npc stations back to all space

[dusty ibex]

Gorilla group, apes together strong

[coral night]

Yes. I agree with this too. I support at least two "pirate" NPC stations being added to every null region.

[dusty ibex]

What if… hear me out, we had like capturable stations that made it easier to beachhead into hostile space.

We could call them “outposts”

[coral night]

This would allow casual roamers a place to dock for the night.

[coral night]

What if... hear me out... you could join a nullsec group and drive away all the roaming small gangs messing with you because they had nowhere to dock, nowhere to reship, can't cloak, and we could bash every structure their small group could attempt to place? Wouldn't that be excellent!!! All the content would dry up in our space and we could all just rat mindlessly in complete safety!!! We'd be bored out of our minds! It will be great!!!

[dapper ruin]

Just add back npc stations to NPC regions and go from there

[dire flume]

https://tenor.com/view/greys-anatomy-richard-webber-i-think-youre-onto-something-you-may-be-onto-something-youre-onto-something-gif-3601945755877205018

[spare tangle]

imagine if you could just capture other players stations with carrier sized breacher pods

[eternal hound]

...controlled by Vanguard players in your fleet

[dire flume]

Nothing that crazy but I could definitely see disabling certain things

[eternal hound]

I think breacher pods being tied into vanguard would be cool, you have a friend in vanguard in your fleet, and you load a special ammo type. they could then load into the pod and when you launch them, they start a PvE match where they can do damage like normal, or maybe effects like breaking their target locks for a moment, disabling a module that is on auto repeat, heat damage to modules, slowing down reload, etc.

it could be strong, but, considering it take another person taking action i think thats reasonable, cause that other person could just be in another ship.

[dire flume]

I think CCP wants to work on asychronous cross-gameplay

It'd also be very hard to do

because EVE fights, especially solo 1v1s are often over in a matter of seconds

[eternal hound]

yeah, it wuld be odd for the vanguard guy to have the room blow up early, but, that means he won really. The idea of a 3-5 ish minute quick match isnt bad though, cause as the EVE pilot, you should know to not use the player controlled pod on a target that will die instantly. use it to hamper something that will take time to chew through, or an off target to take it out of the fight

[spare tangle]

i dont think it would work with fleet battles but like with structure stuff it could work

[dire flume]

Yeah I think for synchornous gameplay the best bet we'll have is structures

[eternal hound]

i think start with structure of course.

but i see no reason you couldnt have it work just fine for small gang all the way up to big fleet fights.

[dire flume]

For example I envisage something like this:

• Alliance A bashes a structure belonging to Alliance B's shield, causing an armour timer
• Alliance A then wants to weaken the structure's defenses before the armour timer, when the enemy will most likely contest, so they decide to put out a mercenary contract to a Vanguard corporation to board the structure and weaken some of its defenses (offlining a missile launcher, ewar module, etc)
• This will take place X amount of time after the Vanguard corporation accepts the contract
• Alliance B gets a notification that this will take place, and has the opportunity to put up a defensive contract if they so please
• If Alliance B chooses not to put up a defensive contract, the defenders during the Vanguard battle will be standard NPCs
• Battle then takes place
• If Alliance A's Vanguard team wins, they successfully weaken the structure
• If Alliance B's Vanguard team wins, not only do they win the objective but that structure will be unable to be boarded by Vanguard for a certain amount of time (say, 2-4 weeks)

[spare tangle]

ships tend to just blow up too fast you breach a ship and its probably dead in the next 2 minutes

best case for ship vs ship combat it would be capitals only

[dire flume]

Another case against this is tidi, in EVE you can have tidi, but tidi is not something that would be good in an FPS

[eternal hound]

you put a limitation that each Ceno can only launcher 1 player controlled pod, then has a cooldown on it, so then they can only use normal pods.

You can only use a player pod by having a vanguard player in fleet (this is assuming cross game chat and fleets, but those should happen either way), and that player has to choose to load into an available pod.

I dont think the target blowing up fast matters, it just means you picked a bad target to use it on.

[eternal hound]

wouldnt matter, the effects caused by the vanguard player could simply be delayed to line up with tidi. they just run their match as normal to full length

[spare tangle]

TIDI probably wouldn't effect the FPS game but valid point still!

probably best to make it like a capture the flag game mode where you need to sabotage the ship stuff during the match instead of if you win the ship gets weaker or something

that way its not just great you won but.. the ship died like 5 minutes ago

[dire flume]

You also have to consider, Vanguard also works like EVE when it comes to losing items

They don't really have a lot of motivation to board a ship that will likely blow up with their items they've worked hard to acquire

[eternal hound]

in smaller fleets, a BC or BS can last a while, in big fleets you would prob only use it on caps, or on ships you just want to disable, not kill immediatly

[eternal hound]

Then any smart vanguard player going breaching will bring some throwaway gear wont they 🙂

[dire flume]

Fair

But to be honest I think if it was going to be with ships

[spare tangle]

all i can see now is for ship stuff they just run around with the most basic weapons saving all the good stuff for like station attacks

just going from WWII infantry man to super soilder depending on what they attack

[dire flume]

better to keep it to capitals/supercaps

Just my own opinion on that

[eternal hound]

Yeah i was picturing a number of objective points in the map, and each point can have different effects if you take and crontrol them. the effects would then have limited durations in the EVE side.

[eternal hound]

eh, i think there is a lot of room for it to be interesting on BS (marauders), Logi, or EWAR ships you want to disable but arnt worth the dps

But yeah, I think stations and PI colonies and the like first.

[spare tangle]

i would think like if you board a ship there would be like 3 to 4 spots/things to sabotage
probably a shield generator and some sort of Nanite Injector depending on the ship (Shield VS armor ships)
Probably a weapon/Ammo depot thing to reduce Reload/ammo change time/dmg
then the engines/warp drive
and for titans/keepstar/lancers a way to disable the DD

[dire flume]

Actually, just a thought

The games don't need to be completely synchonous with this

For example if you are on a ship and it blows up, in Vanguard you could get a 30 second warning of "hull critical, make your way to an escape pod or die", and have an actual chance at escape

Delay the ship death by 30 seconds in vanguard

[eternal hound]

Good point here

[dire flume]

or even a minute

[eternal hound]

literally no need for it to be a perfect one to one after the "fight" is over haha

[dire flume]

Okay you know what I'm on board now @eternal hound

no pun intended

[spare tangle]

getting hit by a DD is 10 seconds and you just get something like Elites "Capital class signature detected" when those big ships warp in that game

[eternal hound]

Yeah there are TONS of options for interesting effects you could have that could be unique but make TOTAL sense from a man inside causing it.

• reduced reload speed
• loss of locked targets
• extra heat damage
• tank module cycle time slowed
• module auto cycle turned off and not usable for a duration

if you wanted to go full chaos:

• change current heading (imagine if orbiting at 10k the vanguard player can see this and gets the option to "break" the orbit and send the ship flying straight the way they are flying at the time lockign the ships heading for a few seconds)
• jettison cargo, think of jettisoning a bunch of their cap charges or spare ammo lol

id picture them all being short duration, but it should feel chaotic for the EVE player hit imo

[dire flume]

https://vxtwitter.com/PlayEVEVanguard/status/1967590818463551956

Also unrelated, I know this is most likely a pre-rendered mini-trailer but if we could get something like this in-game that'd be so cool

EVE Vanguard (@PlayEVEVanguard)

Vanguard, Operation Nemesis begins tomorrow. Are you ready to FIGHT?

💀 https://bit.ly/4gohZw4
#EveVanguard https://t.co/uLMuRkFiWx

▶ Play video

vxTwitter / fixvx · Sep 15, 2025, 2:06 PM

halo ODST vibes

[dire flume]

it would definitely be interesting

[eternal hound]

an, it was joked...but the idea of giving carriers a version of breacher pod that could maybe load 3 vanguard guys in together for use on caps and structures. who knows, it could be an idea.

Id think that titans and structures you would need a team of vanguard guys...like you could go with one, but may only get one objective before you run out of time, but if you go with 3 you could get more done.

there are just SO many ways you can do it lol

[dire flume]

https://youtu.be/AXEo8v6MXGM?si=l6LYZVLeEL9U1XFP&t=41

the dream

[eternal hound]

yuuup i miiiight have been hyped back then at the idea of it....hence why im vocal about the idea now lol

im not generally a FPS person, but, PvE FPS in a setting like EVE...with a goal like that, hell yeah id play it lol

[spare tangle]

the cargo jettison sounds great for actual piracy

[eternal hound]

agreed, it would be legit for stealing loot. think, you catch a guy after a DED site, you breach him and have your vanguard guy jettison the loot before you blow him up to ensure you get the loot.

again...SOOOO many cool gameplay interactions that arise

hell, EVE PvE sites with a small structure that if you breach and they win the match, yeilds extra loot. (and of course doing so would spawn additional waves of rats to fend off while he is in there)

[jagged panther]

I don’t think cross game entanglement will work with ship to ship combat

The timing and execution are too much of an obstacle

Imagine you fire your vanguard breacher pod and nothing happens because your enemy is queued into vanguard and sabotaged the team or something

Against structures and anything with a timer? Sure, that can work potentially. But you still have the issue of inconsistent RNG when it comes to the actual vanguard gameplay

[ebon turret]

I think the concept of gameplay in vanguard influencing what happens in eve is totally garbage!

[ebon turret]

Stuff like this is so airy fairy completely ignoring the reality of the infrastructure required to tie these two completely separate games together in such a way

And even if it were possible why would it be a good thing

You're playing vanguard 'oh some ship in eve that I don't care about just died so now my game is ending in 30 seconds'

[steep needle]

currently the way vanguard is tied into eve (it already is) is essentially unnoticeable for 99.8% of the playerbase

i dont know if theyll expand it but its honestly fine

[ebon turret]

Yes it's irrelevant and unimpactfuland nobody cares let's keep it that way

'omg some vanguard players killed some other vanguard players in a raid now gallente has 1% more advantage in vlillirier '

[eternal hound]

it would work fine, if you are launching a solo operative who is in your "fleet" i.e. someone you picked, who then runs a PvE match.

[eternal hound]

again, you would only even be in that match in vanguard because you specifically joined a fleet with someone in EVE and choose to load into their pod for a breacher match.

[ebon turret]

Ok and nobody launches a breacher pod for another 20 minutes you spend 20 mins in matchmaking?

[eternal hound]

both games run on servers that communicate to clients over the internet, would it need code to bridge them? of course, but there is already a link in some form, so expanding on that not as insane as you think. There are many games that have unified chat systems with other games (blizzard games for example). its hardly unheard of.

[ebon turret]

Or you end up fighting in some random breacher pod utilisation in some random fight in eve, who cares? Are we adding variable damage to breacher pods now?

[eternal hound]

again, you are not in matchmaking, you are in a fleet witht hem, thats the activity you choose to do.

[ebon turret]

800 damage if your vanguard team loses, 1200 damage if your team wins?

[ebon turret]

Ok there is no matchmaking in vanguard? How are you finding other vanguard players to shoot at?

[eternal hound]

scroll up and read more we had a long chat about it lol

[eternal hound]

why are you acting like this would replace all content in vanguard?

[ebon turret]

No, you had a lot of misguided hypotheticals about how it 'could' work

[eternal hound]

ghasp you mean....a conversation....aka...a chat....

[ebon turret]

This is the ship balance feedback thread

[eternal hound]

XD sorry but you are being obtuse i had to lol

anyway, vanguard could have all existing content, and have the OPTION, to join a fleet and ride along untill a pod is used, in which case they then load into a solo match to take objectives in a ship to cause effects (in addition ot or in lou of damage, thats up to CCP)

and are breacher pods a ship module/ammo?

[ebon turret]

Okay so I fire my breacher pod and it ticks for the next 75 seconds

How does the player in vanguard have impact in those 75 seconds?

They're waiting for 30 mins for me to fire a breacher pod then they get 75 seconds of gameplay?

Or.. the vanguard player does a 15 minute mission and destroys a bunch of shit and it empowers the eve players next breacher pod?

Anything that has 'in the moment' effects tying one game to the other is completely unworkable nonsense, to be blunt

[eternal hound]

a player loaded breacher pod may or may not have the same duration, I could easily see the damage is removed and the duration extended, to gain the other control effects. say, 3-5 minutes. and even if it is not who cares, short duration rapid assult gameplay in an FPS isnt a bad thing if your entire goal is an edge in the game its connected to.

[eternal hound]

this is an easy option too

🙂 sounds like a good middle ground idea. not so hard to not shoot things down and instead provide options haha

[ebon turret]

If my goal is to have an edge in eve online why would I be playing vanguard to empower a breacher pod charge rather than playing another ship in eve online

[eternal hound]

effects not achievable via a ship in eve, the fun of it, possible loot to take in vanguard, cant dedicate time to a long roam, but could sit in fleet waiting to be called on to run a quick match, many reasons.

hell this is EVE likely to be plenty of people doing both if we are realistic

[sonic pebble]

what if they start looking at phones as an avenue to play anything EVE directly?

[dire flume]

The infrastructure already exists. The Vanguard devs commented that with the new backend they have it's very easy to make the games connected, infinitely easier than the hoops they had to jump through to make it work for Dust

[ebon turret]

I'm not talking about the technical backend

I'm talking about the structure of the game design

[worn dock]

what if alliance tournament matches could be decided by a vanguard battle instead

that would be cool right

[dire flume]

Wouldn't really make much sense, but I could see a Vanguard version of the AT happening sometime

[ebon turret]

Why when you could play an actual good fps game instead

[dire flume]

Because no other FPS game is able to offer what Vanguard will be able to offer

[ebon turret]

[queen orchid]

Conceptually I agree with you. But we need to see the end results before that statement is accurate

[dire flume]

Based on the progress they've been making, and based on what inside information I have being in the VIP program, I can say as long as they don't rush release, it's going to fulfill that statement to the fullest

[queen orchid]

Will try the beta this week

[dire flume]

oh they aren't that far yet

this is still pre-alpha lol

[queen orchid]

I was in the pre alpha

The buggy mess

[rancid parcel]

i spent 20 minutes running around seeing nobody and finding nothing much to do apart from pick up stuff and then i get one tapped by some dude laying in rubble i didnt even see

10/10 gameplay

[dire flume]

should have used the motion detector smh

[dapper ruin]

This is pre-alpha 3.0 i think? or 4.0

idk how many test they have

still very blocky and unrefined

better, but still miles to go

[queen orchid]

I think Its like 5?

Or more

[dire flume]

Early access isn't for another 9 months so they got time

Probably full release 1.5-2 years after that

[dapper ruin]

Ye. But 2 yrs is a long fuckin time.

And ccp doesnt have the best track record

[dire flume]

Personally knowing the dev team working on Vanguard, they can get it done

[dapper ruin]

Its not the dev team that is worrisome

Also. 2yrs they gotta make something that sticks out. Eve (CCP) needs something that attracts more people to the arena.

A simple FPS doesnt really do that

[dire flume]

Not many FPSes will have the level of customization that Vanguard will have

Dust remains the FPS with the highest level of customization

and Vanguard will have that, and weapon customization on top of that

Not to mention the MMO aspect, political elements, loss-mechanics

[dapper ruin]

Tarkov has some pretty gnarly customization

[dire flume]

And even that would pale in comparison

Would you say Tarkov's customization is close to EVE's?

in terms of ship fitting?

I haven't played Tarkov before so maybe I'm jumping the gun

[dapper ruin]

Yeah?
Different weapons
Can attach numerous different attachments
Can customize your chars loadout with different armor, some cosmetics, cargo capacity

Tarkov is probably one of the most customizable games ive played.
Only thing you cant really customize is the color of your shit and your actual character iirc

[dire flume]

Interesting, I find it hard to believe that any game could approach EVE in terms of stat customization

with the ship fitting system

[dapper ruin]

Just google it

There were some funny ass builds where people put on like 4-5 flashlight attachments to create the sun 🤣

Blinded the shit outta everyone including the user

[dire flume]

Interesting then

Well, Vanguard will have an EVE/Dust-style fitting system along with Weapon customization so it has that going for it

Also territory control aspects like fw/null sov

[dapper ruin]

None of that will matter if they cant intice other people to play

Need more than just the eve population

[dire flume]

I think it's too early for that

Right now it's mainly staying in the EVE circles while it's being developed and tested, I think when we come closer to Early Access/Full Release there will be much more publiclity

Vanguard also leans heavily on the Dust Vet community as well

who don't play EVE

Surprisingly, I've somehow met people playing Vanguard who both have never played/heard of EVE or Dust

not sure how that happened

[dapper ruin]

They need to get peoples opinions outside of eve

[dusty ibex]

This is just me, but since we are currently doing rollbacks on ship nerfs, maybe we could rollback the power grid nerf from surgical strike on the Legion and Loki as well

Would make the Legion significantly more useful

[dapper ruin]

Eve players are terrible at giving advice about eve. I wouldn't want them to give advice about vanguard

[dire flume]

true

[dusty ibex]

Eve players are terrible in general (I am no exception)

[ebon turret]

you are so unbelievably coped up

its insane actually

[dire flume]

Not really, I've been following the development of the new EVE FPS since 2014 when Legion was announced

So I know more than ever that this is the one

[worn dock]

so you’re saying you’ve been on copium since 2014

[ebon turret]

[dire flume]

No, what I'm saying is I have experience in being disappointed, and this time I know it's not going to happen

[rancid parcel]

Make it the next destiny lmaooo

That sure as hell would attract people and it could be eve flavored. Pve/pvp looter shooter with maybe a bit of mmo/survival/extraction flavor loaded in there

Whatever it is it should be fun

Doubly so if it ties in with Eve rather than feeling like a cheap coat of paint since Eve has some kickass ideas both thematically and lorewise

Love to see it iterated upon