#Ship Balance Feedback

1 messages · Page 5 of 1

rancid parcel
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(me included probably)

eternal hound
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It is funny how it is clear how few folks in here have real experience on how to brainstorm changes/solutions. you dont shoot down every bad idea and insult the people making them, you provide counter proposals and or other ideas.

The CONSTANT litany of folks ONLY posting to bash other people in an insulting way is crazy in here lol.

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just chill out, explain your viewpoint, and how the other persons ideas may have holes.

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stop being needlessly insulting

rancid parcel
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like this channel is almost anything but a place to vent with some of the best and worst takes known to this community KEK

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anyways

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#buffcarriers

lean sapphire
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#salt

eternal hound
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oh i agree many of the ideas posted are....heh lets just say full of as many holes as a minmatar rust bucket. but can still be civil about it.

rancid parcel
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i dont think anyone was flaming anyone recently, but giving hictors a mobile inhib scipt has to be a truly terrible balance idea, simple as.

dusty ibex
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So while this would probably be good for keeping QRF BLOPS fleets off small gangers this would be incredibly abused by blocs and the larger lowsec groups to prevent escalation.

Want to control a grid? Just bring in your dreads and then pop cyno jammer HICs up and keep feeding them until the objective is won.

One significant reason lowsec is able to actually have brawls is the absence of cyno jammers. Adding a type of cyno jammer that can effectively shut a grid down for counter escalation is a bad idea.

Yes they could cyno in and warp over but the moment you start warping dreads to the objective, you either have balls of steel or are daft.

rancid parcel
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nothing about the person, its just a bad idea

dusty ibex
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Or you would have a super running a re cloner bay with cyno jamming HICs in the SMB.

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Who cares if you feed 30 HICs if you win

rancid parcel
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hictors online lmao

dusty ibex
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Hictors are borderline rn. I would be very hesitant to add anything else to them rn

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They are incredibly strong rn

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They’re not broken. But they are very strong

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Especially now that you don’t need a recon + hic

eternal hound
# rancid parcel i dont think anyone was flaming anyone recently, but giving hictors a mobile inh...

Yeah nothing crazy in the last day or so, but i was heading it off cause, the "entry test to not propose something stupid" directly after someone posts an idea, is pretty clearly saying "i think this person is too stupid/ignorant to talk here".

I am just saying, everyone could do with clearly voicing the holes in an idea, rather than jumping to "this is a stupid idea, you know nothing about the game, and should feel bad for posting" kinda responses lol.

Best ship is friendship and all that. Remember we all enjoy this game and just want it to be better haha, even if they are less informed, just help them become informed. 😄

rancid parcel
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imo any ship that specializes in tackle, either infini point or AOE bubble should not have any form of cyno lighting capabilities

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imagine if dictors could fit cynos

eternal hound
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anyway, i also agree, that adding a mobile HIC bubble to block Cyno is waaay to versitile and abusable

dusty ibex
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Mm. Idk I feel like the Arazu is pretty peak for covert cyno use.

dusty ibex
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Would be so fun.

Kinda broken asf

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But fun

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IMO hictors are okay as they are now but they are on the edge.

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They are just incredibly good at tackling everything.

eternal hound
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If there was something to make it so a charge of said cyno blocker being used on grid prevented any more from being used for a set amount of time....maybe. so then it could just provide a short pause to the ability to cyno.

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say, it leaves behind some distortion field that prevents the use of any more anywhere on grid for an hour maybe heh

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still prob too much

dusty ibex
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What I do think is that the missile T3C (Loki/Legion) should get their light missile velocity bonus back so as to match the Orthrus on range.

Reasoning: RLML range feels quite short, which is fine. I agree it was needed. However, the Orthrus kept its bonus to light missiles and I feel that for how much SP gets invested into T3C they should also retain this bonus.

Also the Legion fit as RLML + drones suffers significantly in range due to poor application and many targets end up out running the missiles that otherwise would have died.

Normal ships should not regain this bonus.

rancid parcel
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they could add ECCCM. electronic cyno counter-countermeasure

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just an infinite nesting doll of counter counter inhibitors

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inhib is dropped, an inhib inhib is dropped which opens cynos again, so an inhib inhib inhib is dropped, which stops them again

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i should be on the balance team trust me

eternal hound
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i mean, the idea of a module that you could use on a ship that lites a cyno to slam the cyno shut would be funny.

rancid parcel
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next winter update: we have released the long awaited counter counter counter counter counter inhib, as a response to finally stop the counter counter counter counter inhibs.

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stay tuned for the summer update which brings the counter counter counter counter counter counter inhib!

dusty ibex
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Hahaha

jagged panther
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Eh, 100km cyno inhib range is not that large. The deployable itself is really only viable as a delay.

I think that there is a strong argument for cynos being too powerful as is though. Instant teleport in a game like this imo is a dangerous idea

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Granted I don’t think HICs should do both either. Honestly would make more sense if they couldn’t light cynos but could inhib.

I’m not really a fan of the inhib mechanics anyway though. I think the issue is better addressed at the cyno itself which are pretty wildly strong considering you can have basically 0 subcap presence and just decloak and light one and literally anything could instantly appear

rancid parcel
jagged panther
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Sure covert has some advantages but for the groups that are doing stuff like titan bridging large scale combat fleets around, it’s not a big deal to light a hard

rancid parcel
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which is good, you want ships to be specialized and adapted to their role

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which is why i dont like hictors getting cynos. theyre a heavy tackle ship, AOE tackle ship, and can ring the dinner bell for reinforcements? (not just small reinforcements either, they can bring the big toys)

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they should be a heavy tackle ship and a heavy tackle ship.

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nothing more

jagged panther
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Sure. No problem for recons equipping cynos. Not what I’m getting at

rancid parcel
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that can be more defensive than anything tbh. its the reward for holding space, keepstars, and fielding a titan, and eyes, and a cyno lighter

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sure it can be used offensively

jagged panther
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Or just putting a titan in a POS

rancid parcel
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but its a game, people are gonna be creative :P

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true

jagged panther
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And it’s used offensively quite a bit

rancid parcel
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right, i more meant it needs prior setup*

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not just a yeet and tackle like a covops frig can with blops

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still its a strategic asset. its expensive, big, slow, and has a powerful tool it can leverage like the bridge.

jagged panther
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Yeah you do need to have a titan but otherwise it’s the same as blops bridging

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Just approach pos shield if you dont have a keep

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Zeep zoop bridge away

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And you can yeet any hard cyno, the titan is not getting exposed here so it’s not really anything special at risk

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The fact you can do this instantly with 0 commitment to grid prior and 0 risk to the titan… that’s what I’m getting at

quiet umbra
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We're not developers. Just suggest your feedback and move on. Let the Developers do their job reading between the lines of player sentiment and coming up with appropriate solutions, if any at all. Imagine sifting through all of the feedback, alongside the unformated crap people post.

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I'll take my own advice and move on now

rancid parcel
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i mean its a discussion channel, not a formal forum layout...

lean sapphire
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we should even discuss

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otherwise whats the point?

jagged panther
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This thread should have been a channel and each feedback post in the thread a forum post in the channel

lean sapphire
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I blame CCP

dusty ibex
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The deployable is less of an issue

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It has an online timer

coral night
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So if you engage in a capital fight in dead space, like on the outside of a FW plex, it's essentially the same thing as having some kind of interdictor ship on grid preventing you from lighting a cyno. Except on the outside of the FW plex, it's as if there was an unkillable Cyno inhib with grid-wide range. However, you can still Cyno in off grid and warp in.

I understand it would severely impact the escalation meta, but it would effectively only just delay capitals from arriving on grid by several minutes which would give fleets that see the local spike time to pull out and disengage. We could even increase capital align time and warp speed to compensate.

coral night
rancid parcel
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maybe, but whats the alternative?

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remove bridges?

coral night
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The key words here are without counterplay.

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So I think bridges are fine, but nearly instantaneous backup arriving from several systems over without any warning is..... in my opinion not healthy.

rancid parcel
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true, but just like many things itd be incredibly hard to make it balanced on both ends. its not a number tweak they can do like power grid, its either "overpowered stuff" letting people teleport as you put it, or useless and not even a second thought since its so easily countered

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its eithere there or isnt, and a very fine line to swing between opressive and op, and useless and liability

coral night
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Ok, so, let's pretend for a moment that a capital can align like a battleship and warp like a battleship, but a fight was on the outside of a FW plex. Would this be so bad? The capitals would take the bridge, spike local, and then warp to the action. It would take a few minutes.

worn dock
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cynos are one of the few options available for asymmetric warfare and getting rid of them or nerfing them by introducing more counterplay than “kill the cyno ship” is stupid

rancid parcel
worn dock
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imagine how safe nullsec ratters would be if they could shut down cynos

rancid parcel
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id more imagine it would be something that is reactionary, but not absolute. just like a cyno inhib

worn dock
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nah

coral night
rancid parcel
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it anchors for some time, after which it imposes said penalty, but the other side that may want cynos isnt totally cucked out

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its not an optimal solution i will agree

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but its something

worn dock
coral night
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Oh, and aren't they already SUPER safe inside abyssal sites?

worn dock
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but there aren’t that many ded sites so most ratters aren’t in them

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also yes

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which is dumb

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not sure what point you’re trying to make here

rancid parcel
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abysals can be camped. DEDs can be probed down. plenty of people die to those every day, but its only the dumbasses that get caught, or the smart hunters that get a kill

coral night
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I mean, I agree with the abyssal sites. But DED sites don't seem broken.

worn dock
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ded sites are pretty limited

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if you could turn an anom into a ded site at will that would be fucking broken

rancid parcel
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there are advantages and disadvantages to everything, having something that is either an on or off deal like cynos has such a razor thin line for balance

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like i said its either op and broken, or its useless and easily countered. no in between. either a cyno gets lit and people jump, or it doesnt get lit and nobody jumps.

coral night
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If you could turn an anom to ungated dead space would that be broken? I don't think so. They can still be tackled with a ceptor.

rancid parcel
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id love to hear some ideas because i genuinely have nothing on that

rancid parcel
coral night
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What I'm trying to get at is that we can create counterplay to instantaneous reinforcement through cynos without completely breaking the game.

rancid parcel
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how so?

coral night
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I think the spirit of Grandpa's suggestion is viable. If we have a ship that can prevent Cyno activation within a limited range on grid it doesn't completely break capital escalation or even the use of BLOPS. It just adds a delay to when those ships arrive on grid and forewarning to the fleet you are attempting to jump on.

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The question is: how fast should capitals warp?

rancid parcel
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maybe if it was reactionary module, not something you can roll up and hit pre-emptively and lock out all cynos.

urban pawn
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Sounds like you guys are kinda headed to some sort of "spool up mechanic"

coral night
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This also gives the opportunity to break apart the utility of specific capitals and others. A faster warping and aligning capital will have much greater utility.

urban pawn
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So like, cyno now takes 15 seconds to light, using a hic scripted point or whatever slows this down to 45 seconds (I've made those numbers up)

rancid parcel
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a utility and "mobility" of a capital is its jump drive. do you fly caps?

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it is laughably easy to tie them down

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bubbles do be bubbling

urban pawn
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I can see getting like,rigs that would speed up this spoolup so you get to choose, tank rigs and slow cyno or cyno rigs and lower tank

worn dock
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15s cyno spoolup is also a huge buff for ratters

urban pawn
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This could be a very shitty idea, just following up to what was said above

rancid parcel
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even blops?

urban pawn
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Didn't really think it through tbh and I don't engage in this content at all so I cant really judge if it's a shitty idea or not, just sharing what popped into my mind when I read the conversation above

rancid parcel
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15 seconds is plenty of time to anihilate any cyno ship long before the spool occurs. if its trying to get the drop on a ratting marauder you found, or trying to light a defensive cyno for your dread. either way that would kill cyno usage.

rancid parcel
urban pawn
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No way a prot dies to a ratting marauder in 15 seconds

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I assume hyper prots are the meta for hunting marauders and whatnot

rancid parcel
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yeah thats not it...

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more often than not its a tackle covops frigate

urban pawn
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Could give them a role bonus to take it down to like 7s or whatever

rancid parcel
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maybe some people use t3cs, but they are generally used better elsewhere than as a cyno slave

urban pawn
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That way you can't instantly decloak and light on some random roaming cruisers but a battleship won't lock you in time before it goes up

rancid parcel
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until you fly blops and caps both offensively and defensively lmk how that changes your take on cynos. i dont know everything either but suggesting radical changes to something you rarely or never interact with can have some crazy balance repercussions

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ive suggested some stuff that i thought would be a middle of the road minor change before, and people told me thats the worst idea theyve ever heard lol

urban pawn
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Like I said

rancid parcel
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after experiencing it myself i was like "holy shit theyre right"

urban pawn
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I wouldn't recommend these things be implemented as I described them

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But figured it could spark some debate that could lead somewhere

rancid parcel
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yeah true, discussion thread is for discussion :P

urban pawn
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vOv

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That's why I approached it as "what if this changed..." Rather than "this needs to be changed"

rancid parcel
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anyways #buffcarriers

eternal hound
rancid parcel
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i say give carriers a single heavy toob, or intrinsic hull buffs to light fighters, or their own version of a siege core hmm

urban pawn
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As long as we don't go back to 2018 carriers online, sure

eternal hound
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im not saying "make carriers great again" just "make carriers have a point again" XD

rancid parcel
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single heavy tube would allow them to fit LR or FIBOs, giving them some more punch and also punch up ability.

intrinsic hull buffs (think gila) would allow them to get brought up to par with a haw dread, while not touching the light fighter numbers (for use on other ships like supers)

siege or sentinel core would be more radical. allow a carrier to choose to commit to grid just like a dread and recieve local tank and damage buffs, while also not being helpless when mobile like a dread out of siege is.

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if they wanna fit that whole mobile schtick

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and/or give them warp core stability per level just like their big sister ships, maybe +1 or +2 per level?

rancid parcel
dusty ibex
rancid parcel
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and round and round we go

dusty ibex
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We could call it a mobile cynosaural inhibitor

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#bufffighters

dusty ibex
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If it gets added

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Like +2 flat

rancid parcel
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eh, then a single faction scram can tie it down. if they want to give it the more mobile capital role which is being hard to tie down in exchange for lack of tank and damage, it should take at least two scrams to hold one

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otherwise id agree 100%

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+2 is fair

dusty ibex
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Yes that’s the idea. A faction scram should hold it down imo.

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Or a hictor

rancid parcel
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hictors can hold anything though lol

dusty ibex
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Exactly

rancid parcel
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maybe +1 per level would be better then tbh

dusty ibex
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I would also like to point out that even if we had 2018 fighters back. Carrier use would not be the same because they cost so damn much

rancid parcel
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make it more skill based, and worst case you need two faction scrams to hold one, which isnt unreasonable but still allows for a carrier to be slippery

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unlike supers and titans that just wave their mega core stab schlongs around KEK

dusty ibex
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Hmm maybe.

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I think it does need to be killable

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But it should take more than like 5 stabbers

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Without the carrier being able to kill even 1

rancid parcel
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anything is, even a haw dread which is literally superior in every way

dusty ibex
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Yes

rancid parcel
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the point would be itd take more than a tin can with thrusters and a scram strapped to it to hold a capital class carrier down which sacrifices tank and damage for ranged strike, force support, and mobility

dusty ibex
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Idk. I think they should just do a fighter nerf rollback and see what happens

rancid parcel
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id agree

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carriers arent dirt cheap like they used to be

dusty ibex
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Slowcats are dead

rancid parcel
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people wouldnt whelp them at every chance

dusty ibex
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Exactly

rancid parcel
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sure theyd be strong, and that would be good. everyone wants to whine about "hur dur big ship kill small ship" but if someone drops billions on a combat capital ship on grid that excels in punching down, they should be rewarded for that.

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not like 1v100 and come out unscatched

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but you know what i mean

dusty ibex
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Before, they had god tier dps, application, logi and they cost like what 400m after insurance?

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Bring them back to being the best subcap platform

rancid parcel
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yet certain people would throw a fit if their two cruisers and 5 frigates got stomped by a solo carrier

dusty ibex
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I kind of don’t care tbh

rancid parcel
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because they totally deserve to kill it

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it should be a loot pinata

dusty ibex
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But they don’t cry when a Loki 1v5 them Omegalul

rancid parcel
dusty ibex
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Yes

rancid parcel
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they can be good at it and a strong ship, but not OP

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thatd be best 👍

eternal hound
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hell jsut split the difference somewhere on the nerfs...

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just something lol

dusty ibex
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They should have good to excellent applications to subs. Moderate buffer tank

rancid parcel
dusty ibex
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Dreads should be the tanky ones

rancid parcel
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for a haw dreadnought to get better damage, better tank, better application, AND be cheaper than a carrier that uses fighters explicitly to kill stuff smaller than it makes zero sense

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hell

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even marauders get more damage than a carrier

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funny

dusty ibex
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Now the one argument is that dreads are locked in place

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Which is true

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But you can always disengage from what you can’t kill

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And honestly with the risk of escalation I can’t see people yeeting carriers like candy

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Fitted a carrier is a 6-8B paperweight rn

rancid parcel
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they must commit to grid in exchange for the massive self buffs

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they are siege weapons after all

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not fly around weapons

dusty ibex
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Now for carriers. They should have a much lighter tank

rancid parcel
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which they do

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both in buffer and reps

dusty ibex
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Like a hit and run ship

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Yes

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But they can neither hit nor run rn

rancid parcel
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their tank is fine atm, most people just lump that in with their extremely poor performance that just componds the issue

dusty ibex
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Yes

rancid parcel
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piss poor damage and application, even worse than a subcap marauder is just pathetic

dusty ibex
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If fighter nerf was rolled back. They would ironically be in a very good place

rancid parcel
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for the price tag and skill investment

rancid parcel
dusty ibex
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People that risked them without support would get absolutely blobbed to fuck and die

rancid parcel
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exactly

dusty ibex
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I want to say this again, slowcats is dead. There is no chance it can come back.

rancid parcel
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itd be no different than now, but theyd actually be relevant again and a strong asset to utilize. why dont people shove haw dreads in every single fight? because theyre big, slow, and expensive. carriers would be the same...

dusty ibex
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Not even a lich could necromancy slowcats back

rancid parcel
dusty ibex
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We have FAX now

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Now if you dropped an active fax, a few carriers and a subcap gang you would be absolutely fucking things up

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Which then sets the stage to escalate to dreads

rancid parcel
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whole fleet at that point lol

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yep

dusty ibex
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And then zoooooers

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Carriers are the missing piece in the escalation chain.

Problem, subcap fleet fucking around.
Drop subs + FAX and carrier to make them fuck off.

They drop dreads + FAX and start wiping carriers.

Drop supers + tits

Yay we have the next M2

rancid parcel
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i am in no way biased for carriers becoming relevant since i think carrier based craft in any game are sick as hell

dusty ibex
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I just think the Nidhoggur looks badass

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And I wish it was as good as it used to be

sonic pebble
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It is possible that CCP does change the meta of SBs a little by tweaking various stats.

They could make some of the missiles more difficult to shoot down via firewalling.

Points to Gurista Missiles having a bit higher HP [minimalistic though in grand scheme of battleship SBs not really that important. structure resistance but that is to specific damage.

Personally, SBs in firewall usage is kind of a fill in, for potential Hard Sci-Fi CIDW...[Close In Defense Weapons] but I don't EVEs player base is ready for that.

And yes SB will be around to stay...although if you commit to that particular gameplay...you generally get hard countered by range options.

rancid parcel
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ok ngl a ciws module or high or just whatever to protect against projectiles would be kinda sick

sonic pebble
dapper ruin
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it's a great counter to kitey missile comps

rancid parcel
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i just want a cwis

dapper ruin
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you have it. SBs

rancid parcel
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but wheres my cool brrrt

sonic pebble
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Although who knows what CCP will change pertaining to it. Mostly hard countered by turret ships with range.

Well we do kind of have some missile questions in play...considering Missile HP [Gurista Missiles] and the Mordus Legion hulls with much higher speeds...which if used in coordination could slip through firewalls.

jagged panther
jagged panther
sonic pebble
# rancid parcel it anchors for some time, after which it imposes said penalty, but the other sid...

Also Mobile Cyno Inhibitors have alot of built in downsides as well. Their action range is very short...response time very slow. And if you try to stop someone from cynoing on a station. You need to be in a very specific in positioning...since the deployment range from a station...is almost the same range of the cyno inhibitor itself. Which means gaps in coverage.

So in order to achieve lockdown you have to deploy way too many Mobile Cyno Inhibitors.

Having the HICs with Cyno Jammers would be beneficial...just make sure there is some cyno counterplay...although one can have multiple in system to all for hotdrops or reinforcements to drop in.

dusty ibex
jagged panther
restive bay
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Jammer hics aren’t the worst idea but imo the ehp and spool up time on inhib is already balanced

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Also

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Covert cynos ignore jammers

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So u just drop the deemer blob

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Volley the hics

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And light a hard

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Alternatively the cyno lights at 100

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And the deemers use beams

coral night
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I disagree. The fact that the deployable cyno inhibitor has so many limitations basically negates its use:

"100km effective range
One minute activation time.

May not be deployed within 200km of another Mobile Cynosural Inhibitor, within 75km of Stargates, Stations or Upwell Structures, or within 40km of a Starbase. Cannot be retrieved once deployed.
Self-destructs after one hour of operation."

The inhibitor isn't already balanced. Clearly, since escalations happen basically without immunity already, it's basically a worthless tactic unless someone is really oblivious to them. I've tried to use them many times. In practice, they are worthless.

I'd suggest the following: Either removing all the mobile cyno inhib's deployment limitations, or add the effect to a ship's deployable "bubble" (like the interdictor does). At the same time, increase capital warp speed and align time dramatically, taking twice the time to align, warp, and land on grid over a 1 AU distance when compared to a battleship.

I think not the HIC, but the command ship is a good choice for a cyno jamer launcher platform. They are expensive enough and easy to identify, but small enough that it makes it hard for blap dreads to apply. It would make sense to apply a significant range bonus to the Astarte, Nighthawk, Absolution, and Sleipnir. The launcher would take up a high slot and have slightly greater fitting penalties than a command burst.

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I don't think any ship should be forced to remain stationary while it has cyno jamming effects active. It makes it too easy of a target for capitals to blap it off the field.

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Again, the intent is not to prevent capital escalations from happening, but to provide counterplay which can prevent them from happening in a matter of seconds with no warning.

desert adder
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if Im not 100% safe its not balanced 🤓

dapper ruin
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Shoot the cyno

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There's your counter play

spare tangle
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yk if the cyno had to stay there for like 30 secounds before the cyno worked then yeah that would be it

dapper ruin
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It uncloaks, you lock it, alpha it and half the enemy dread fleet gets in and you frag em

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Ez

dusty ibex
dire flume
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CCP should have just gone with the original idea of giving cynos spoolup time

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instead of limiting them to only recons/blops (and now hics)

sonic pebble
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So a certain strategic tip in fighting in lowsec has happened kind of unnoticed.

sonic pebble
# coral night I disagree. The fact that the deployable cyno inhibitor has so many limitations ...

I think there should be a point for players to use cynos in a system...in various ways.

The system cyno jammer...prevents system wide. But that made it a strategic target overall. But over time the turtling of defensive mechanics created stagnation. Which from a strategic point of view the Sov Changes were attempting to address. IE you can't have permanent defense on all the time.

But for the grid cyno situation...there isn't really a counterplay.

Having ship based cyno jammers would force either off grid reinforcing, or careful thinning down of a fleet to open a hotdrop...or make someone mis-position his ship jammers opening up active fleet maneuver coordination and gameplay.

I mean one can set up cynos off grid or in system...or anywhere actually in that games 3D space...as long as the cyno jammers...both system and the potential "ship based" item are offline/out of range.

dapper ruin
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Cynos are fine. If anything increase the HP of a cyno inhib but beyond that, they're fine

dire flume
rancid parcel
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Question is, how long. What’s the difference between a cyno on a dictor and a cyno on a dread?

coral night
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I admit that a cyno spool up time is also a good idea. You wouldn't have to change capital warp speed that way. You also would have greater control of how easy you want to make additional escalations be. As you allude to, you could simply put a small delay or no delay when a capital lights a cyno (maybe not on a FAX or Rorqual though). This way, it's like: "Fair warning! There are already caps on grid so more could come quickly!" Seems fine to me.

#

That would still accomplish the theme of "no instantaneous and overwhelming backup without warning with zero counterplay".

desert adder
rancid parcel
#

but if cynos were allowed on every ship again like that how would it stop infinite chains of reinforcements

#

if literally any of the ships on grid could call for backup

dapper ruin
#

Not allowed on every ship, 30sec spool up, recons get a bonus to drop to 10sec

#

Or somethin like that

rancid parcel
#

like no corvettes or dictors?

#

or something?

sonic pebble
sonic pebble
# rancid parcel but if cynos were allowed on every ship again like that how would it stop infini...

True...there is a point that thought...but maybe the main point would be to make cyno "fuel heavier?"

IE each isotope...or maybe turning the isotope into a fuel container like a cap battery...but its got alot of m3...and you can only fire off a cycle per Cyno Battery.

So Yes you can fire off a cyno...but now you have to balance when and how you would use your cynos. If the cyno goes offline due to no more bats for its cycle...then the beacon collapses and no more hotdrops to that point.

#

So now Cynos become important assets....you can have the cyno spool up...but also have a limiter so its not always on...and you can just anchor up and cyno till the isotopes run out.

rancid parcel
#

cyno uptime isnt as important as getting it up in the first place for a few seconds

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5 minute cycle time is not like everyones just slowly filling in

#

offensively and defensively, once its lit everyone screams to jump asap

sonic pebble
#

I mean true...but it could be an interesting way to then start to "choke" cyno usage to a much more strategic/tactical response.

Still powerful and useful, just with a bit more careful balancing. Maybe shortening down the cyno cycle...alongside increases spool up and then making its Fuel...a bit more "complex" weight/amount per cycle...could potentially force a bit of a different gameplay interaction around it.

#

But not removing it.

#

Then the interaction with counter play mechanics can be tuned with that.

dapper ruin
dusty ibex
#

Adding spool up time would effectively kill blops hunting as well as defensive QRF cynos.

Imagine a buzzard sitting still for 10 seconds, unable to move with a cyno lit and a Vargur tackled Omegalul

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Recons nearly get vollied off grid as soon as they decloak, adding spool up to cynos would just be asinine.

coral night
#

You do know that HICs can use cynos right? You can remote rep that with your logi wing or a FAX lol.

If you're trying to seal club ratters or whatever with a BLOPS fleet, the "hunter" T3 ship should have 100k EHP or so or a decent active tank. So it should be able to survive for a decent amount of time.

#

But yes, this means you shouldn't light a covert cyno with your cloaky scanner or bomber having essentially zero tank lol.

#

And I'd argue that it's already asinine to allow game mechanics to let you use a ~40m cloakly frigate be able to take down one of the most powerful ships in the game when that ship has literally zero chance of counterplay.

#

Hey man, I'm not saying that I haven't done exactly all of this too. I was once part of a nullsec group called the Illuminati. This was pre-fatigue. We leveraged BLOPS in the most cancerous way to the entire Provi region.

I can admit I'm not an innovator. These guys already had the most effective and brutal way of seal clubbing I've ever seen. They did it fast and they did it in a way which minimized losses. They had tons of people as "hunters" in cloaky T3s. We had a few recons, a single BLOPS battleship, and a shit ton of bombers waiting. Another BLOPS battleship just stayed next to the POS and created the bridge. The recons were just there for application. The bombers all had sensor boosters. This is so you can kill stuff as fast as possible, leveraging the high volley of the bombers. The BLOPS battleship would just warp away to a safe as soon as it came through. No use in exposing that ship more than necessary. It fit warp core stabs and was for bridging back. We were able to kill people and reset in less than three minutes. It was absolute cancer.

I saw some people asking to have the Sin buffed. I just chuckled to myself. The Sin is the best BLOPS battleships for one reason and one reason only: It has the biggest cargo hold!!!!

In reality, BLOPS battleship use right now is just a far less effective form of seal clubbing. The kind where you bring a FAX too so you can defeat some joke of a fleet easily which dares to mess with your moon drills.

#

But yes, the Sin uses drones. So after it travels to the Cyno, its damage is more delayed than all the other BLOPS battleships. This makes it less effective at seal clubbing.

Sometimes, you don't even get on the killmail!!! That MUST change! Give the Sin a hybrid damage bonus and give it super high lock speed!! (This last part is sarcasm).

dusty ibex
#

I don’t see an issue with that. Back when goons lived in Delve, we had massive whaling fleets that attacked our caps and rorquals on a daily basis. We just adapted to it, still had losses but overall we saved a significant more than we lost.

#

IMO it adds a bit of suspense when you see a neutral cov ops. Hmm is he just pilfering out explo sites or is he out to do some hot drops?

desert adder
dusty ibex
# desert adder .

Exactly. While we are at it, we should make Eve Offline so I can crab in peace without having to worry about any social interaction or PvP.

sonic pebble
# coral night And I'd argue that it's already asinine to allow game mechanics to let you use a...

It also kind of got annoying when people are trying to figure out a way to buff a ship for its intended role [Example Prospect] and then everyone keeps blocking any buffing attempts because they are using the ship in question for Cov Op Cynos, so they don't want to see the ship more being used as a mining ship...because that would make the threat matrix or potential hiding a cov op cyno much harder to detect.

Also adding the cyno spool up...and potentially a new mechanic to limit cycles...would also keep the cyno bots for ratlines down as well. People will punt out a Venture or some other T1 ship...log off while the game mechanics keeps the cyno up and the ship in space...and detectable and usable. While the players character is "gone" not in local. Yes you can kill these "log off" cynos...but it is kind of annoyingly difficult to disrupt even that kind of activity. Yes direct killing the ship is possible. But many of these can 0m cyno light...while their opposition with mobile cyno jammers have to move off 75km off the stations to hopefully prevent the cyno.

Possibly new distance from structures/gate rules could be talked about as well.

dapper ruin
#

While cynos being spooled up isnt the worst idea. Its not needed

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cynos are in a good spot

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and the prospect is in a good spot as well

elder hollow
#

Yes you can kill these "log off" cynos

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but it is kind of annoyingly difficult to disrupt even that kind of activity

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you literally warp to them

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it takes literal seconds

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Possibly new distance from structures/gate rules could be talked about as well.

#

you would single handedly destroy JF usage

astral stone
rancid parcel
#

actual simple ship feedback idea: allow the capital tractor beam to actually be fit to capital ships

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might as well just call it "rorqual tractor beam" right now

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because thats what it is

sonic pebble
# elder hollow you would single handedly destroy JF usage

Points to 0m station cynos.

Now in Nullsec this might not be a problem, but in Lowsec you have NPC station turrets that will open fire on you if you try to take out the cyno. [Which negates certain attempts on eliminating them.] Plus also the pods...warp away to a log off point...once you have "released them" from their ship hull. [They don't fully disappear until the timer is fully removed. Total Log Out.]

Now in the case of the Cyno range from structure consideration. Because the Mobile Cyno Inhibitor has a max range of 100km...but a minimum range of 75km from the structure...it means you have blind spots...especially depending on the stations interaction box. You have to put more more Mobile Cynos to counter Cyno deployment on a station. Too costly...to interdict a station.

Now if Cyno ranges from a structure were considered, we could change the Cyno to a scan down system...much like the filament trace. [Highly easy to scan, but would give players a window to use Cynos and operate it.] if you are on grid...and you cyno within a set distance...then yes you can be jumped to. So I don't think killing off JF...I think I hear concerns if BLOBs can't just drop on someone.

But it was a consideration considering earlier discussiong of a ship board cyno jammer. How would it work and be considered with other mechancis already in the game.

sonic pebble
dapper ruin
elder hollow
#

if you cant cyno at 0 on strucutres then you wont cyno on grid at all

#

and any JF that needs to warp at all to dock somewhere means that JF usage will drop by 90%

#

in short, stop suggesting ideas for gameplay that you are not versed in, for a game you dont play

sonic pebble
# elder hollow and any JF that needs to warp at all to dock somewhere means that JF usage will ...

This also would mean that the current Lancer gameplay would become more complicated as well. When it comes to JF. Also 90% out of how many JF players? Potentially the Cyno ship would also be fitted with webs to help align. Or the JF pilots would start using various mobility pods [Nomad or Ascendancy...I don't think Snake would be used.]

One shot Cynos- which ships are the shooters, because you can take the cyno ship and make it very tanky, or have multiple out. So that becomes a cost to target. [If we also stopped the instant warp to target profile...and made it scan down...that would give time for the cyno operator and its jump ships....within grid range 10,000km you could jump to it. ] (this would also justify deploying a combat probe only launcher module for PVP ships and hunters)

The suggestion for the ship based one was a discussion of counterplay for hotdrops. Usually near gates in content or structures. I was pointing out a problem I had seen personally with trying to disrupt cyno usage via mobile cyno jammers, ironically at Tabbetzur a few years ago. I know people would not like seeing "Jump Out" Cyno Jamming mechanics...which I am not suggesting. But I understood I could disrupt "Jump In" via Cyno Jamming. The problem was I had to deploy a fairly high number of mobile cyno jammers because of their minimum distance requirements of near a station.

#

IE the current mobile cyno jammer has a minimum range deployment requirement. I was saying would a potential ship based cyno jammer have a minimum range requirement from stations or gates? Which would then make it nearly useless in some situations.

elder hollow
#

This also would mean that the current Lancer gameplay would become more complicated as well. When it comes to JF.

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no it wouldnt

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JF have essentially two roles in the game

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one of them is reducing incoming reps vs titans, which is not a thing right now because titans are not worth using

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the other is hunting JFs

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and they are the REASON JF use will go down if you removed cyno at 0

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because it means any cloaked lancer can instantly catch any JF

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IE the current mobile cyno jammer has a minimum range deployment requirement. I was saying would a potential ship based cyno jammer have a minimum range requirement from stations or gates? Which would then make it nearly useless in some situations.

#

there is a reason they cant be spammed so easily

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or placed near things like that

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it would make them too strong

#

adding it to a ship would have the same issues of strength

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except now you could cloak them ahead of time

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One shot Cynos- which ships are the shooters,

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99.9% of cyno ships in movement scenarios are ventures

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a thrasher can one shot them

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it is not hard

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there is no point putting tank on the cyno ship

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it is there to cyno and then die

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moving cynos off stations would not change that

#

again

#

please stop commenting on gameplay you are not versed in

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for a game you do not play

#

I know people would not like seeing "Jump Out" Cyno Jamming mechanics...which I am not suggesting.

#

these already exist

#

once again

#

you do not play the game

limpid rapids
#

There’s things I’d consider approaching good ideas in Milint’s rants. My issue with the rants tend to be that they lack the context of having played the areas he’s trying to comment on, to actually capitalize in the things that approach good ideas.

elder hollow
#

There’s things I’d consider approaching good ideas in Milint’s rants.

#

a stopped clock

steep needle
#

Is right twice a day

limpid rapids
#

There’s things I absolutely want that’d improve how and where I play the game

That said, I’m cognizant those ideas would clash and have to contend with places like Wormhole space and Sov, which are places I don’t have experience with

#

Okay I have experience with WHs, but mostly low class

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Which is a different game from high class

sonic pebble
# elder hollow `This also would mean that the current Lancer gameplay would become more complic...

If the JF are now dropping into a cyno further out and away from structures etc. The Lancer doesn't have predictable path to align lances to. JF survivability would potentially mean more would get through. [But that would hinge upon Cynos becoming non-jump to...unless near grid, and scan down mechanics]

And if we did adjust cynos...what is to say if CCP were to buffs JF maybe align time a bit? This would be more important in lowsec, because of the majority of interdiction mechanics in nullsec would be a good question for nullsec and potentially corruption affected lowsec. [Again if the cynos were not jump to and scan down, cynos would be out of align for vectors of approach, less predictability until a Drag Bubble is used...and I don't think CCP will allow JFs Nullifier capacity.]

And I have seen other ships that can field a cyno used in my locality, and very rarely a mobile cyno. Where there is some interesting overlap is in lowsec generally around stations/NPC stations. Ergo the Ratlines.

Also this would be absolutely insane, but the Lancer Lance can be fitted to a Titan. [So does that mean a titan could be used in Lowsec in the same role?](I would find that to be a bit crazy if someone started that, but it would mean that Titans could potentially get more PVP in lowsec than nullsec.)

elder hollow
#

The Lancer doesn't have predictable path to align lances to.

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the lancer can see it ahead of time very easily

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JFs take a long time to come out of warp in order to dock

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long enough for the lancer to spool up

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JF maybe align time a bit?

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align time can be literally 0

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like it is already because people use webs

#

, but it would mean that Titans could potentially get more PVP in lowsec than nullsec.)

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the majority of titan pvp in the past few years is lowsec

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unless you count the titans that got whelped during move ops

#

but to summarise

#

you want to throw in multiple halfbaked ideas

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that you have no idea on the mechanics of anyway

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in order to attempt to fix multiple problems that you would introduce from another of your half baked ideas on a mechanic you have no idea of either

#

so again

#

stop suggesting ideas for content you have no experience with

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in a game you do not play

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you should stick to ship concepts

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because unironically thats something you are quite good at

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the balance of htem is atrocious but the designs are cool

sonic pebble
#

If the cynos were further out, and in different positions...lets say I drop two JFs from two different vectors...thats already 50% survivability. Your lance is directional.

That is if we are doing linear plane but since EVE is 3D to a extent. So if JFs are dropping in from all angles, unless you are firing on the gate with the lancer to stop them getting through. Although then players would start a timed system to get past the Lance. IE they get you to fire your lance...then they time the lance once you are on cool down they cyno-jump. Or even positional...one JF comes in from one direction...[maybe low cost/empty] baits your lance...then the next JFs come from behind the gate or above or some other direction after you have fired.

Now yes you could have multiple Lancers on that grid...but that would increase risk and does add "dinner bell" if more lancers are used in an area. IE escalation for people wanting to dread fight lancers or maybe even BLOPS them.

Now if you are dealing with Lancers+Warp Disruption mechanics yes...you would have to force clear the gate. [Although one could ask CCP for pirate insurrections to be more randomized and in more lowsec spaces around areas to make that possible.]

But that flexibility, requires a Cyno Rework...which I feel wouldn't be well recieved.
Although people already really don't use JFs because of Lancer camping. And this also created the Cyno-Warp to Grid Station-Align on Tether to Gate Meta. (With spais being the most uncounterable option in the mix)

dapper ruin
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Milint is someone who likes to find solutions to problems that do not exist

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Because he thinks it makes him sound important

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Milint, why dont you go back to trying to make a small autocannon tornado work in whs

elder hollow
#

.lets say I drop two JFs from two different vectors...thats already 50% survivability. Your lance is directional.

#

so your argument is that if you spend at least 10b as a sacrifice to move one shipment one jump

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and you cant instantly see the problem with that argument and why players simply just wont use JFs

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...you would have to force clear the gate.

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except lancers can cloak

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and they do

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frequently

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But that flexibility, requires a Cyno Rework...which I feel wouldn't be well recieved.

#

its also a rework that isnt needed for a mechanic that doesnt have issue

sonic pebble
elder hollow
#

for an idea that has had no thought put into it

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by a person who doesnt play the game

elder hollow
sonic pebble
elder hollow
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they have 45 mins, then on average another 20 mins

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to kill the obs

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spoiler: they will

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once again a demonstration of a mechanic you havnt interacted with

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because you dont play teh game

sonic pebble
elder hollow
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and those contracts have a deposit

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so you lose 10b in addition to the cargo and deposit

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its not a numbers game, you are being an idiot

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as usual

sonic pebble
#

And...as I pointed out...bait JF, versus a loaded one.
I made a very pointed note that if the opponent had knowledge of the exact target. [Spai] but haulers are very cagey on that information.

The Lancer Cloaking up...falls under the mechanics of if someone sitting cloaked up...the Mobile Observatory should be able to decloak them, or at least put some pressure on them. I know people want to use that for ambush, but sometimes people want counterplays.

Overuse of Cloak...counter cloak tools. [Mobile Observatory]
Overuse of Hotdrop [Cyno]...counter cyno [Cyno Jammer on ships etc.]

Yes, we don't want people to just play EVE passively, but actively. But there should be offensive/defense counterplay.

Its the balance thereof. Haulers have techniques to lower their risk, agreements etc. We can only put so many Mechanic Balance systems into the game. Because the unknown variable is always going to be the Capsuleer. [We can never fully buff/nerf that unknown variable out.]

We can "balance" symmetrically/asymmetrically modules-ships-content, but the players are always the unknown variable.

There was a player a few years ago I remember who used the Pre-Siege Green Astrahaus down in Liriem to basically drive some station bashers into boredom. Because he could afford to replace the stations and just keep filling the grid. It follows the same mentallity of ships are ammo. Some people can afford to throw "bodies" at a problem. Now for a small group doing that with a JF...yeah it would break them. But for a larger established group they can throw bodies at problems, heck they get the Lancer player distracted on one system, and then drop in on another spot. There are options to that gameplay.

dapper ruin
elder hollow
#

.bait JF

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so a dead JF

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aka 10b

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just to have a chance at hte 2nd JF also not dying

dapper ruin
# sonic pebble And...as I pointed out...bait JF, versus a loaded one. I made a very pointed not...

Or better yet give me 20b isk and let me buy 2 JF and ill use one as bait. Cause that makes perfect fucking sense.

Mobile Observatories were introduced to help combate AFK cloaking. Not active. A Mobile Observatory will put absolutely no pressure on a cloaked lancer camping a gate, ya muppet.

Maybe you should try to actively play the game, instead of being a passive player who post shit fits and theories? Then you'd know that 99.99% of your ideas are absolutely trash and why most people tell you to shut up daily.

coral night
# elder hollow it would make them too strong

So here, you say removing the Cyno jammer's deployment restrictions or adding a cyno jamming capability would "make them too strong". Care to elaborate?

The idea is to allow counterplay to counter nearly instantaneous teleportation of a large fleet on your grid with little to no pre-warning.

There seem to be several workable options:

  • Remove mobile cyno restrictions and restructure capital warp speed to be slightly slower than battleships. This allows them to cyno in off grid and warp in.
  • Add a Cyno inhibiting ship and restructure capital warp speed to be slightly slower than battleships. This allows them to cyno in off grid and warp in.
  • Add a delay when a ship takes a bridge or travels to a cyno.
#

So I'm confused why you say allowing this counterplay would be "too strong".

elder hollow
#

Add a delay when a ship takes a bridge or travels to a cyno.

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i dont have overly much issue with this, but the framing of the changes milint wants is in coneection to JFs

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JFs are an extremely vital tool for the economy on both the wider game and of null and lowsec

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lancer JFs are INCREDIBLY good at hunting them

coral night
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Yes, I ignore Milint.

elder hollow
#

milints suggestions would tip that so over the edge that JFs become unusable

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setting up mobile inhibs already is a counter play

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its used extensivly by whaling fleets both big and small

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a cyno inhibiting ship in and of itself is a big step up in the tankiness of inhibs themselves, but that is not the core issue

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the core issue is that allowing inhibs to stop cynoing to a structure directly or gate directly fucks JFs to a point of uselessness

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and thus also kills all content for players using JFs, or those hunting them

coral night
#

So, I know mobile inhibs in their current state do have a very limited use, but in practice against someone who isn't completely ignorant of their mechanics, they are wholly ineffective.

I've attempted to use them many times and they are pretty much crap against anyone who has a clue they exist. I think any FC worth their salt would agree there are several work-arounds. Basically, in major fleet battles, they aren't effective.

elder hollow
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it depends on the size of the fight and hte dps involved

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for whaling there is a significant dps race vs logis repping the inhib

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on strategic scale the inhib that is very strong is obviously the system inhib, which is spammed everywhere and some if not alot of alliances arnt happy with it stifling content

coral night
#

Not talking about system wide inhibs here. That's a completely different discussion. Let's stay on the topic of limited range inhibs.

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I agree that in the very small scale, the deployable inhib is viable, especially if your logi wing way, way, out numbers their DPS.

elder hollow
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it doesnt need to way way outnubmer

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it just needs to delay the inevitable long enough for the target to die

desert adder
#

(you are arguing with someone who doesnt play the game)

coral night
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It's got 160k EHP and no resists.

elder hollow
coral night
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It's intentionally created to not be remote repped.

elder hollow
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correct

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so it doesnt live forever

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it just needs to live long enough

coral night
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So, define "live long enough".

elder hollow
coral night
#

This is a deployable, with a one minute activation time.

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That has 160k EHP.

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So.... let's do some "back of the napkin math".

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Assuming a ship had 500 DPS, how many ships would need to shoot it so that it didn't even survive deployment?

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The answer is 5.33 (6 if you round up).

elder hollow
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napkin math doesnt really follow reality

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its anchored the moment the trap is sprung

coral night
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So with only 6 ships having 500 DPS, you can prevent your enemy from ever deploying one. See the issue?

elder hollow
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and any response is unlikely to come before its about to anchor

elder hollow
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like people do

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the vendetta and revenant kill in horde space was a very good example

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that entire thing was decided somewhat on the rep battle on the inhib

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(and also we told them on thier comms to undock and bubble thier keepstar kek )

coral night
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This thing has zero resists

desert adder
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That’s not how rep work

elder hollow
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you can rep something with zero resists

desert adder
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I was waiting for you to type that kek

elder hollow
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oh hey

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with footage from @desert adder

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thats handy kek

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and you can see the inhib being anchored immediately

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@desert adder y owhat the fuck

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what is that hotkey

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to follow the bomb

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that isnt shift c click

desert adder
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View key

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Alt?

elder hollow
desert adder
#

Like when you move your camera on another ship

coral night
#

To be clear, I'm not saying that you can't rep a mobile inhib. Nor am I saying that a battle can't be won because of that.

What I'm saying is that repping a cyno inhib is extremely ineffective. You need a massive logi wing compared to enemy DPS.

elder hollow
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(you dont)

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once again

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your napkin math assumes the fleet is already there

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is already in range

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and instantly switches

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which is a very very narrow part of its usecases

dusty ibex
elder hollow
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god bless fernando and his tiny gremlin hands

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died in his ship

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stole a bomber from a dying dread

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went into hull

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left

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came back

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grabbed the mods as it died

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and fucked off

coral night
#

So, an Apostle, with 2x Enduring remote armor reps, reps for 3741 EHP/s. That's terrible. So you would need several apostles repping that thing to counteract a fleet. But you did rep it. Most people don't even attempt to do that, which is why your strategy worked. You did something unexpected.

elder hollow
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spodbless the beans that followed our orders

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So you would need several apostles repping that thing to counteract a fleet

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why do you keep saying this

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when i have, over and over, said the only goal is to delay the inevitable

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You did something unexpected.

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it is somewhat common on whaling fleets

coral night
#

Like I said, I agree that the mobile cyno is effective in the small scale or when you have overwhelming logi.

dusty ibex
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no, it is very effective at securing dread kills

dire flume
dusty ibex
coral night
#

Ok, so I think you've emphasized my point even here. It seems like you can only provide very limited use cases where the mobile inhib is effective.

dusty ibex
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now if we talk about cyno jammers, those are differnt issues

coral night
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Basically: Whaling and springing traps against the oblivious.

coral night
dusty ibex
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which i mean is kind of the entire point of it?

Now if we want to look at sov installed cyno jammers, those are a very different thing

elder hollow
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the inhib was online just enough once they had undocked and gotten ready

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for the bigger of the fleets to get bubbled to hell on thier keep

dusty ibex
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the mobile inhib is fantastic for what its purpose was intended for.

elder hollow
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they were not oblivious

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like i know its horde

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but home def is something all of null can do very well

coral night
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Clearly, horde can't if they depended on cynoing in backup but couldn't identify a mobile cyno inhib on the grid and didn't know what to do about it. I mean, no offense, mistakes made and lessons learned and all that.

elder hollow
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identify a mobile cyno inhib on the grid

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they did

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immediately

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the ship that we dropped on went for it INSTANTLY

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because he knows that its his only option

coral night
#

All I see is that you killed a whale using a mobile cyno inhib. Congratulations on the shiny kill, but it still only proves that the mobile cyno inhib has a very limited use case.

elder hollow
#

sure but my wider point, more specifically:

  • it has a usecase that is widely adopted and extremely useful
  • the areas where it is not used are currently overshadowed by its much larger version
  • buffing the mobile inhib, especially in relation to ranges from structures, would be disastrous for JFs, the content that arises from JF's, and the economy as a whole because its a JF
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i realised my wording implied that the video proved that list

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that wasnt my intention so edited

coral night
#

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the mobile cyno inhib prevents new cynos from becoming active within its radius.

To my understanding, neither a mobile cyno inhibitor now, nor one which can be anchored anywhere, does not impede JFs. That's because the JF's cyno would either already be active and therefore unaffected or not yet active and the JF would not be able to jump.

So I guess, if the JF was undocking from a kick-out station, this could allow the JF to drift off the undock, unable to stop ship before being back inside the dock radius. So maybe slightly effective if the JF pilot was dumb enough to use a kick-out station.

elder hollow
#

most popular JF routes are monitored non stop

#

so its not exactly a stretch to see them being used to blockade viable paths

#

they arnt expensive

#

milintspo int that "they will just jump to a cyno off grid" is specifically moronic because it means they die to lancers

#

they simply just wont jump

coral night
#

I mean, let's say you have a ship that has the ability of a cyno inhib. And that ship is sitting on top of a station that's used as a JF jump point. If the people doing JF work don't even bother to defend the grid of their own structure through manning guns, having a fleet, or whatever, across multiple possible JF structures and NPC stations do they, at that point, deserve to be blockaded?

#

I would say yes. If they don't even bother to respond to something like that, that seems silly.

#

It also seems silly that those doing JF work might think they deserve to do JF work pretty much unimpeded from effort like that.

fleet mesa
#

Man, you arguing about how to avoid being killed. Try to put yourself on the other side - if you want to find and kill somebody - that’s bloody hard. For the last few years cyno and blobs become worse and worse, sometimes you spending huge amount of time to catch someone to kill. The only those who completely lost their attention and don’t care to be killed. Others who want to escape - they leave anomaly / belt even before you found where they are. Most kills right now due to spys in each corp. please stop ruining the cyno and blops mechanics. I would even made null sec more spicy completely removing local as in wormholes. More destructions, more defensive strategies etc. higher risk for reward!

coral night
#

So, I agree that cyno mechanics work to the advantage of the ones using it. That's not the point. Obviously, if someone thinks they can win a fight, they light cyno and bring the fleet through. If they don't think they can win, they simply don't light the Cyno. So this is an extremely one-sided mechanic.

I agree my suggestions would make seal clubbing less difficult.

#

If you are trying to argue "I can't possibly gank this guy now you've changed this mechanic slightly", then describe the exact situation and let's discuss.

#

Are you speaking specifically to ganking supercarriers running nullsec anoms?

#

Or is this something else?

fleet mesa
#

In most cases this are beacons, rorquals, anomalies with marauders etc. the only way to catch is to get them when they are in siege / bastion and use that time to bring fleet. You are right - in most cases battle one sided (unless this is a pure bait) because those who light the cyno decide whether they have enough power to kill.

elder hollow
#

If the people doing JF work don't even bother to defend the grid of their own structure through manning guns, having a fleet, or whatever

#

you are aware that npc stations do not have manned guns right?

#

you would also need someone to man every single citadel along your route aswell if that is what you wanted to do

#

and that is immediately countered by the cyno inhib ship cloaking

coral night
elder hollow
#

alot of routes use npc stations

coral night
#

Yes. I'm aware.

elder hollow
#

because citadels are either freeport traps, or killed to make way for freeport traps

coral night
#

So if you know someone is just sitting outside of the one NPC station you want to use with a module active, deployable, or whatever inhibiting your cyno, first, wouldn't you just wait for them to go away or pick another station?

Let's assume in an extreme case, all NPC stations were guarded in that way and this was a constant issue. Just.... drop a fort and man the guns if they try that. And if that doesn't work. You can drop multiple forts. And if that doesn't work, don't you kinda deserve to be blockaded at that point??

elder hollow
#

right

#

so you'll need to do this for every jump in a route

#

on every route

#

and it assumes no one sees you doing the route in order to just set up part way through said route

#

you need every citadel gunned on the route

coral night
#

I would assume that if you don't at least have alternate JF routes in mind or have the ability to choose an alternate.... this makes you a pretty poor JF pilot, yes?

elder hollow
#

you are suggesting all routes are citadeled and gunned ahead of time

#

and you are framing this as a "well if you dont why use JF at all"

#

and this is the EXACT point im making

coral night
#

No, I'm saying the most likely case would be the JF pilot just looks for alternate routes first.

elder hollow
#

with a simple change you have reduced JF usage and all content stemming from it by a gigantic margin

#

because why bother with that when all those people can just go through pochven lmao

coral night
#

So there's A LOT of counterplay for the JF pilot. Blockading a JF would be very, very, hard in practice.

elder hollow
#

except you require all routes to be citadeled, gunned, and scouted

#

before you know which one is safe, in your scenario

#

so again, why would they bother with that when that amount of manpower can just go through pochven instead and ditch the JF

spare tangle
#

wouldn't you basically scout the route when you undock the alt you cyno too

elder hollow
#

and they can see you coming ahead of time

#

its not like having an afk cloaked dude off a citadel in lowsec is a hard feat aswell

#

that can be ticker tanked

dusty ibex
#

Why make playing the game miserable?

Logistics are not where we should be focusing on making destruction number go up.

We should be looking to create more destruction through combat ship vs combat ship destruction and fighting.

#

Nobody here wants to go back to bloc level mandated freighter escort ops to jita . Then guess what, small groups that relied on JF logistics will evaporate and further entrench the blocs

Whatever makes the blocs life harder, makes small groups life exponentially harder.

jade thicket
#

"Nobody here wants to go back to bloc level mandated freighter escort ops to jita"
Speak for yourself pls

#

I would rather JF logistics become group based instead of 1 goblin with 20 accounts doing it all himself

rancid parcel
#

especially for logistics which are already tedious and boring

spare tangle
#

Clearly the right choice is Titan sized armed capital jump freighters in this scenario (Joke)

dusty ibex
elder hollow
coral night
# fleet mesa Man, you arguing about how to avoid being killed. Try to put yourself on the oth...

Sorry for getting distracted about JFs. Priester, your comment is a good one. It seems like you are arguing the following: Safety is so high in nullsec that you are forced to resort to instantaneous teleportation of overwhelming support to even catch anything. Sometimes you even are forced to resort to burning a spy alt as well.

Is that correct? I think we need to address that now because this is a related, but entirely separate issue.

worn dock
#

that’s not really a ship balance issue

#

it’s a “ansiblex allow instantaneous teleportation of overwhelming force for standing fleet” issue

coral night
#

Ok, so there are some aspects which are a ship balance issue. A great example is the Marauder's bastion cycle time.

#

And there is the fact that only some ships can bypass a bubble.

#

And there is the fact that it is extremely difficult to both build a ship that can bypass a bubble, warp quickly to someone in a site, point them with good range, zoom in close to establish a scram too incase they have a MJD, then also not only survive the DPS from the ship that tackled them but also the DPS of the rats which switched their aggro to them.

#

So yeah, there are ship ballance aspects to this.

#

But I would agree that it's not the biggest, most impacting factor.

#

For example, the fact that abyssal sites can be done in a deep safe from an astra anchored in that deep safe in some lonely WH system is, in my opinion, completely bullshit. It would take forever for someone to even discover you were running abyssal sites.

#

So yeah, that's entirely dependent on how the site mechanics work.

worn dock
#

I thought the topic was safety in nullsec

coral night
#

It is. Sorry. I was just trying to point out how there are few things we could even talk about in this channel which are related to ship balance.

#

None of which are a good idea.

#

I mean, what are we going to say?

  • All cruisers and below should be able to bypass bubbles? That kinda defeats the purpose of bubbles.
  • That there should be some kind of "super ceptor" capable of tanking huge DPS? Also very, very broken.
  • That marauders should have longer bastion timers? Maybe not so broken but still doesn't address all the other ships you could run the site with.
  • That ships shouldn't be able to align out? How would that even work without changing site mechanics?
dusty ibex
#

It is not difficult by any means to get a ship to be nullified, have a point and scram, tank initial DPS and also have a covert.

#

Proteus/Tengu are the absolute kings of this and they can be made to do this role very inexpensively.

#

I used Lanthes because he’s a known quantity and is usually fairly successful with his drops (except when he forgot LO and warped into my gate camping Hyperion)

worn dock
#

you’re creating difficulties for yourself by insisting on nerfing cynos and then handwringing about how to catch ratters after the cyno nerf

#

just don’t nerf cynos

#

also fatigue on ansiblexes

coral night
#

Ok, so let's just analyze this Tengu since it's one of the few semi-tanky things that can bypass a bubble.
With no implants, improved blue pill, and a heated shield booster, it has about 83k EHP if it gets all booster cycles off, which it will after lasting at least 36 seconds. So unless someone is throwing more than 2k DPS against it, it's going to last more than 36 seconds. But this thing entirely relies upon backup coming in. What does it look like when there are new rules?

  • For delayed travel through a cyno, the Tengu needs to tank longer. Perhaps we need larger active tanks for T3s (which shouldn't affect large fleet fights much if it's just rep % bonuses per level).
  • Provided someone has a ship with a cyno inhib ability and could decloak and instantly throw that effect up, the ratting ship is protected, but this ship must be on grid at all times (decreased isk/hr per alt for the ratter). However, if we added a sufficient activation delay on the ship which could deploy a cyno inhib "bubble", this solution wouldn't affect this situation.
  • Using existing mechanics, the ratter could already have a moble cyno inhib deployed in this situation (decrease in cyno inhib deployment restrictions do not change this situation).
#

So sounds like the decrease in mobile cyno inhib restrictions (allowing them to be deployed anywhere and close to one another) has the least affect on this situation but delayed travel through a covert cyno is workable provided T3's got better % rep per level bonuses.

In the case of the decrease in cyno inhib deployment restrictions, it actually assists the ganking fleet more because once the fleet comes in, they could deploy multiple cyno inhibs to prevent a nullsec umbrella from coming in.

sonic pebble
# coral night I mean, what are we going to say? - All cruisers and below should be able to by...

There is the reason why a couple of years ago when the Nullification changes happened.

I had suggested in making one of the interceptors native nullification only, while the other was more capable of resisting tackle effects. [much like the Web resist bonus of the Deathless Ships]

The idea was to have one interceptor "Punch Through" various defenses to get the point/tackle. While the other was more of a "Gunship" that had better control of itself on grid. But the current nullification mechanics can kind of keep people from getting at a target.

That said...due to the mechanics in availability at the moment, there are options for tackle in ways probably not yet discussed. Why not explore the possibilities of certain ships that now have access to Nullification, and which ones can be fitted to fullfil that Super Ceptor role? Before we make a new hull...potentially cruiser I feel.

The Bubble issue maybe the question is can one clear bubbles off the grid...if they get into a situation? Most times you hope you can either nullify through, or hope you can get away from the bubble zone...to allow some chance of escape. Plus alot of the mechanics used to decloak...etc because of predictability.

The Marauder Bastion timer...I have suggested as well as others...a widening of the Bastion options. T1 is 60 sec. [Factional Bastion -55-45sec] -with a T2 Bastion at maybe 35-40sec.

Having sites that keep people from aligning out might not be recieved well. Because if capsuleers percieve its a feed-dish and they are main course for some other group...they will not run that content, unless the reward is worth it. We have some sites and missions that do keep people from leaving the grid scram/web towers/ NPC points/scrams. And if players can't align out of a site or mission that is too big for them it would discourage activity discovery.

sonic pebble
jagged panther
rancid parcel
#

on jokes aside a combat freighter would be interesting

elder hollow
rancid parcel
#

general freighter not specialized

spare tangle
#

Genuianly if a combat freigther would be made id see it more like a freigther/carrier hybrid with cargobays remade into hangars instead of with guns and of course actual tank fittings

rancid parcel
#

yeah theres a question

#

why cant carriers get a low that if equipped, cuts out like 90% of their hangar bay space and a good chunk of hull HP in exchange for that same amount of hangar bay turning into cargo bay?

#

kinda like a damage control, a single low to equip

dire flume
spare tangle
spare tangle
dire flume
#

so gets a 150% bonus to auto-targeting missile damage in total

spare tangle
#

Yeah so nothing like a freigther that just has some cargo bays made into figther bays

dire flume
#

so not terrible

rancid parcel
limpid rapids
#

Narratively speaking, that is a thing, but tbh a lot of things exist in lore that just don’t in gameplay

#

For various reasons

silver drum
limpid rapids
#

Eeyup

limpid rapids
#

Both would be a nightmare for game balance

#

But lore and game often end up at odds because it still has to be a game

silver drum
#

Tbh I can actually see a way to let them do that and still not kill balance by simply not letting them drop anywhere near as precisely or frequently.

limpid rapids
#

sorry, brain. Been a long day. In theory, you can set up even a stock jump drive for intersystem(and even intrasystem, that gets forgotten a lot lorewise) jumping without cyno with minimal modification, you ajust have to deal with things like getting a suitable calculation vector and what not(read as calculation time and spool up).

more specialized models are better at it and have less chance of screw up though

#

as written you can do a lot of things relatively stock that you just can't in-game

spare tangle
fleet mesa
#

I had a chance to talk with a few people and many of them would love to see much more expanded list of mutaplasmids. I’d like to hear your thoughts on this topic:

  1. We have mutaplasmid on webifier but nothing for grappler. It would be great to see the same approach.
  2. We have plates and shields, but nothing for hull - bulkhead
  3. Capacitor rechargers
  4. We do have damage control, it would amazing to have the same for hardeners/amplifiers - huge market and opportunity!
  5. We have on weapon damage/ speed upgrade but nothing for guidance/tracking

I am sure I am not the first person proposing this, what are the pitfalls and why CCP didn’t introduced them yet?

dusty ibex
#

Balance is why.

dapper ruin
#

Mutaplasmids for hardeners would be too op

fleet mesa
#

Another big big topic - hull repairers. I specifically checked skill board and it’s obvious that almost nobody (leaving some chance that I missed or didn’t found) uses Hull Repairers. The reason is very simple:

  1. hull repairers 2-3 less efficient than shield/armor and faaaar slower and cap hungry.

Haven’t you thought to make them a bit closer to Armor / Shield repairers efficiency?

dapper ruin
#

Can already get very high resist with T2s, even higher with deadspace/officer

#

dont need to make it easier to get to 99%

fleet mesa
dapper ruin
#

it would

restive bay
fleet mesa
spare tangle
#

hull reppers feels more like something an explorer would have in their cargo hold with a mobile depot to just repair your hull in space you cant dock up to repair it then actually trying to be used in combat

restive bay
#

its a post-fight repair method

#

where you tradeoff the cost effectiveness of hull tank for limitations elsewhere

torn escarp
#

**Feedback **- The **Loki **(and many t3s in general) have been neutered in changes long past because they were decently strong when used well. They stood as ships capable of brawling fleets larger than themselves not due to their raw EHP, but due to a combination of their utility ewar and their hull size. They carried the cost of SP loss to temper their use a little, so that people wouldn't be able (or willing) to utilise these ships as throwaway trading boats, but instead consider the way they're used carefully.

When SP loss was removed, they'd lost their identify and their ability to reliable be used in fleet comps prior to that, and the SP loss removal was a means of making their use more attractive.

The Loki specifically is still in a poor spot, and in much need of a Powergrid boost to allow it to fit tank and longer range weapons systems in any comp where it's utilised.

**Reason **- I love the Loki of old, and would like to see it be a feasible fleet option in today's eve online. I believe the current meta would still make using the Loki fairly difficult as a fleet comp (FNI online lmao lol hehe haha) but it would also allow the use of the Loki more reliably in both shield and armour comps, without having to leave slots empty.

At the moment, the current practice for webs is to bring enough recons that it takes a while for the enemy to clear them all, instead of having high value ships on grid that're capable of tanking under the incoming damage.

**Suggestion (Optional) **- More Powergrid for the Loki. A 7%-10% increase allows for triple extender arty configurations that still require a t2 Ancillary current router, while also forcing you to use CPU implants or downgrade CPU heavy equipment.

EDIT: While I have provided a suggestion, whatever combination of fixes you want to string together will hopefully work as well. If it is a subsystem dependent increase in PG that'll work. The ultimate goal is the Loki getting 200-250 more raw PG. sun

dusty ibex
#

I agree on adding some power grid to the Loki however I think that a small amount should be added to the base hull and that the projectile scoping subsystem should have an increased fitting bonus for projectiles instead of a raw PG improvement

#

Because as it is now, projectile Loki is not viable outside of memey 720mm gank cannons.

220mm is too short ranged to use the webs properly to mitigate other close range damage, 425mm doesn’t fit at all with enough tank to survive

650mm barely fits with a modicum of tank and 720mm does not fit at all.

#

Prot/Tengu both can comfortably run their turret subsystems and the prot can fit its Friction Extension sub with blasters and be useful. Autocannon Loki is significantly inferior to missile Loki.

#

Adding a fitting bonus to the respective subsystem would allow projectile fits to be viable without giving it an outright bonus that could make it over powered.

desert adder
#

brave is in your top 5 alliances, your opinion on t3c will forever be rejected

restive bay
#

rip the loki my beloved i will never forgive dunk

dire flume
dapper ruin
fleet mesa
dapper ruin
ebon turret
desert adder
#

no this is not the ultimate goal

dapper ruin
#

make the proteus great again

sonic pebble
sonic pebble
rancid parcel
#

hoo boy

dapper ruin
#

1b pith-a god rolled. Say hello to a 10b hardener with massive resist

dusty ibex
#

90% EM resist hardener Omegalul

#

Glorified shield hardener mutaplasmid

#

Honestly the devs should work on minor tweaks and leave the overall balance alone.

FNI is over used
Armor logi is what holds back armor subcap comps past small gang

I’d rather see those issue resolved before they go messing with other solo ships.

rancid parcel
iron nexus
#

Armor tank and projection needs to be increased and shield tank and projection needs to be decreased

Shield benifits should be mobility and DPS while sacrificing tank and projection.
Armor benefits should be tank and projection while sacrificing DPS and mobility.
Currently shield doctrines basically have all 4 as benefits with no downsides

devout sage
ebon turret
#

Armor and shield balance is completely fine, the factor that makes shield dominant at block scale won't be changed unless you either specifically change rep mechanics (please don't) or make armor literally twice as tanky

#

If you wish to experience ships other than FNIs and rokhs, simply leave the bloc life

#

But core game mechanics would need a substantial change to address shield supremacy at bloc level which would have large impacts on the rest of the game

devout sage
ebon turret
#

Baffles me that nullsec players choose to engage with exclusively one type of fleet fight and are then surprised that the choice of ships they get to use is limited

#

If armor reps were changed to be the same as shield congrats now you're playing tempests online as that becomes the best t1 BS

devout sage
#

Why only compare armor/shields? You have to consider the guns. Lasers and machine guns are very interesting weapons. Lasers are better than blasters in some cases. Missiles have a disadvantage - they can be destroyed. I'm not very satisfied with the damage of missiles, I would like 10-20% more, but it's a small thing.

#

I saw a suggestion about reducing the bonus or removing it from PDS altogether. Then what would be the point of it? Well remove it, then shield ships will be VERY DPS. Then you'll be saying reduce the bonus from BCS...

iron nexus
# ebon turret Baffles me that nullsec players choose to engage with exclusively one type of fl...

Outside of WHs or pochven where armor comps tend to be more common or redeemers for BLOPs drops
the majority of fleet fights are shield.
Nightmares, barghests, RNIs, Rokhs, FNIs, CFIs, HFIs. Even small gang tends to overwhelming be either shield or nano comps with “armor ships” (ONI, ENI not even fit with armor tank).
There are some mino cases of armor usage like init using zealots or other groups using armor doctrines in non serious combat.
But in literally every portion of known space currently some from of shield doctrines is the go to.

ebon turret
#

Yeah nobody ever uses Apostles

#

True

#

Machs, vindis, bhaals, nestors are all useless

#

Navy prophs are a rarity

#

Legion? Never heard of it

iron nexus
#

Never said they was useless.
But when compared to their respective shield counterparts armor doctrines are lacking.
Machs are only armor with auto cannons, can’t really fit armor and arty. Vindi, bhaals, Nestor’s are all support ships and not fielded as main line ships.
Navy prophecy is outclassed by FNIs, CFIs.
Haven’t seen a legion/prot fleet on any kind of scale recently. HML Loki fleet would outperform that by miles.

ebon turret
#

Sir you can absolutely fit armor arty machs

#

It's literally been a mainline snuff doctrine for over 10 years

#

Shield wins on bloc scale because either a) you are bloc vs bloc and need the instant reps from shield or b) you are non-bloc vs bloc and need the range, mobility and dps from a shield doctrine because if you field a brawling armor doctrine you get blobbed to fuck

#

Armor Tempest fleets and typhoon fleets are also a thing

#

Anyway it boils down to my original statement

Yes shield is dominant on blob scale, if you want to fly a greater variety of doctrines leave the nullbloc

#

Let's not break a very long standing and core mechanic of the game just in the hope that it adds some variety to bloc doctrines [it wouldn't, it would either change nothing or introduce a new mainline ship that everyone uses all the time]

urban pawn
#

it looks scuffed on paper but its actually a very good fit

#

albeit it could use a tad more fitting so you dont have to commit so much

#

but the statement that it isnt possible is simply incorrect

torn escarp
torn escarp
#

Be that downgraded modules or cpu implants

dusty ibex
fleet mesa
# dapper ruin no

Let’s be data driven:
with the most recent update and reversed resists - armor/shield resistance increased ~10-15% and I don’t see any drama, even some amplifiers and membranes increased resists by ~2-3%. If we introduce mutaplasmids similar to what we have for damage control but a bit lower numbers very similar to what we have for damage +-2.5%-10% for the most rare wouldn’t ruin the game but will create a hugeeee market and will create a big sink for failed modules

dusty ibex
#

That’s because the surgical strike resist nerf sucked from the start and never should have happened.

urban pawn
lean sapphire
urban pawn
#

like I said it looks ugly on paper but it feels very good to fly

dapper ruin
dapper ruin
# fleet mesa Let’s be data driven: with the most recent update and reversed resists - armor/s...

The recent resist increase was just to take us back to post SS. Post SS things were fine.
Small groups could punch up because small groups could spend a bit extra to buy deadspace and have a nice increase in survivability against a nullbloc.
If you want to add mutaplasmid for hardeners you are going to drive that up even more, and not to mention how ridiculously tanky some solo fits could be.

From a balance perspective it's just not worth it. Resist are finally back to a good spot

fleet mesa
dusty ibex
# urban pawn yea

Ah yeah I see it now. Would be nice to fit 720’s without spending every rig slot on power grid tho. Granted, the sub systems pick up a lot of slack rigs normally fill but the arty fitting feels obnoxiously tight.

#

Just a smidge of power grid to the Loki would be great.

dusty ibex
lean sapphire
#

so i can copy it

dusty ibex
#

All I’ll say is that the Loki loss on my zkill is not what I fly currently 😛

dusty ibex
#

Here’s one tho

#

Looks a bit weird but works well in practice

urban pawn
#

buffer of a frig though

dapper ruin
urban pawn
dapper ruin
#

that they where

dusty ibex
#

“Not even close”

~my friend I was doing shenanigans with

image.png
lean sapphire
#

"I paid for the full ship, I am going to use the full ship"

dusty ibex
#

2 navy 400s left in the XLASB and 20% hull.

#

Squeaked by there

#

Granted I was memeing on shit and I did not expect that guy to have augmented drones.

fleet mesa
# dapper ruin Firstly it wouldn't be an extra 100-300m itd be billions for good+ rolls. Second...

Be honest I can’t understand the logic.
You have freaking cruiser - let’s say you fit it with 1.5b (pretty pumped) then you have 1.5-2b vargur that smash you at all. What is the problem to give a bit options for cruiser by mutaplasmid to be able push back a bit against Vargur by matching isk cost of hull with fit. Why all freaking 10-15% upgraded that not move you from frigate to BS class power have to cost billions?)
That’s bloody logic - when some small upgrade should cost billions.

lean sapphire
#

Why should a cruiser alone have a chance against a vargur?

#

even if it's a bling fit cruiser, as ling as the Battleships class ship can track and hit it, it has no business staying alive

#

if you want to fight a vargur, bring a vargur, or the right cruiser

#

you can take on a vargur in a bling fit curse and win with the right skills

fleet mesa
#

That’s stupid example, don’t tie to words. I am not proposing to pump frig to start killing Vargur. I was talking about some wider but not extreme wide corridor of pumping!

lean sapphire
#

No its not, you cant expect a cruiser to take on a ship 2 classes above it and live even if they are in the same cost category

fleet mesa
#

We have clear classes with more or less clear price corridor. If you pay extra money - allow to pump +1 or +1.5 classs above

#

Now we have opportunity to make ~+1class up

lean sapphire
#

This is eve and thank god you actually need to use your brain

#

Cruisers can already solo marauders, with the right pilot and right fit

#

in the right situation if that is your issue

fleet mesa
#

With +1-1.5 class pump you will use your brain even harder

#

Because you will not have clear counter pick

lean sapphire
#

no you fucking wont, you will just sit at 0 and facetank everything

#

as of now you can easily make a Loki tank 2-3kehp/s with enough bling and pod

fleet mesa
lean sapphire
#

HG crystal + 2b loki

dusty ibex
lean sapphire
#

not even abyssal mods

#

now imagine fitting an abyssal shield booster to that, oh good god

dusty ibex
#

But here’s the thing. If I am flying a marauder killing T3C I am sacrificing a LOT of engagement profile to do so.

#

And honestly I am going to drop a dread on a Vargur rather than a Loki

#

Tengu actually can tank more than Loki due to fatass mid slots

fleet mesa
#

That’s pointless discussion - CCP added 10-15% and no complains. Nothing really changed dramatically. Why all believes and afraid to death to add +2-3% …

dusty ibex
#

Because abyssals are in an okay spot rn. We have plenty resists rn why add more

#

If this was pre SS revert I would agree. Post SS revert our tanks are fine

lean sapphire
#

because this is the balanced way it was before CCP updated the game and fucked it all up, however buffeing resistances, even in the form of abyssal mods, any further would absolutely fuck with gamebalance

#

you would 100% see dreads have fits that have well over 10m EHP

dapper ruin
#

Its just will it take you 10s to eat shit or 30s

#

Resist are finally back to a good spot. Small groups can punch up aainst blocs again, we can fight eachother and not just get alpha'd off, krabbers are happy

#

Its good. Dont change it

ebon turret
urban pawn
#

They also added 10% globally, not just to the ridiculous isk charriots

sonic pebble
dapper ruin
sonic pebble
#

Surgical Strike Revision does affect the baseline core ship fit resist profiles.

But then you stack on Fleet Boosts....event boosters etc.

And other mechanics like signature.

And certain ships and fits will have higher defensive potential.

If this is done 1v1...there is a different perspective vs. Fleet combination.

#

It also has forced some more careful considerations with assault damage control fitted ships

rancid parcel
dusty ibex
#

Mmmmmmmmmmm

dapper ruin
sonic pebble
# rancid parcel the tradeoff is that shields are heavily reliant on capacitor and have sig bloom...

True...but also armor with some components...plates/rigs...also slows down the ships as well. Composite complications. They do soak damage a bit more as well, but their active rep component is way heavier on the capacitor than the shield ones.

Which can be a problem in and of itself, because someone can pressure armor active rep fits a bit more effectively than a shield fit. [Shield fits have Cap Batteries they can throw around.]

dapper ruin
sonic pebble
#

IE directly...ancil shield reps at the moment...unless CCP does the same rules they did with the Ancil Armor Rep...which only uses nanites.

[Meaning CCP limits Ancil Shield Reps to one per hull...like Ancil Armor Repper]

Yes both shield and armor fits can use the cap booster system...but which has the more immediate advantage to "recharge"

The Shield one.

coral night
#

This whole armor vs shield conversation needs to be way more specific if we want to give CCP good feedback. We need to focus on what ships specifically are so dominant in the meta that they push out all other options.

Ships were all balanced for a long time with the SS changes in effect. Obviously, the SS revert threw that balance work out of wack. Those ships which have high resistance bonuses (i.e. the Rokh and Ferox Navy Issues) saw the most benefit from the revert.

Yes, shield EHP and armor EHP is different due to the delay in the armor rep cycle. For high volley situations, the highest EHP wins, but for damage over time situations, armor needs more EHP because reps land later.

I'll have to go home and put things together in Pyfa to do a good pre/post comparison, but it's clear that EHP for both armor and shield ships did increase. If you run some numbers, you can see who benefited the most in the damage over time situation.

sonic pebble
#

HP/Resist/Rep Timing/ Capacitor Usage in comparison.

coral night
#

But that's not to say that some platforms were already powerful. Clearly, the platforms with high projection, high EHP, high resists, and decent speed always dominate the meta.

sonic pebble
#

Well looking at the feroxes...maybe the fleet boost bonuses on those hulls = higher fleet boost effect + SurgStrike Revision...might also be looked at.

#

That was one thing that immediately concerned me when I first hear the patch information.

dapper ruin
rancid parcel
#

The way it is now is fine

dapper ruin
#

Milint is just dumb and doesnt know what he's talking about. Ever.

rancid parcel
#

Armor has its pros of being IMMUNE to cap warfare, and shield makes up for its vulnerability to neuts by leveraging better ehp

#

It’s not that hard of a concept

#

Pick one for lower health but un-mitigatable

#

Or pick higher health but opens up the possibility for your enemy to directly influence your tank

dusty ibex
#

They both have uses , I think in solo/small gang with local reps, armor is better due to needing mids for application and utility but in large fleet composition that use T2 ships to fill utility roles (Lach/Hugin) the increased damage and mobility of shields are better

#

Situationally

sonic pebble
# rancid parcel Or pick higher health but opens up the possibility for your enemy to directly in...

True...although the shields require you to have the tactical shield config skill at maximum.

Although there has been a debate between IV and V...because if you allow the shields to "slip" a little at around 25% it allows you rep the shield back up further. (Its more advanced mechanics of EVE for some players...not everyone looks at those nuances)

Armor doesn't have that mechanic luxury. Although the armor compensation skills do flat apply to all armor related modules. Which means armor players can more easily standardize their fits. And trying to speed up the local reps...usually means you lose your capacitor faster. Shield fits can mitigate capacitor loss as well with rigs.

Yes you are correct, the HP and Resist side of armor [Plates/Membranes/Energized etc...is solid passive not needing capacitor.] but the active rep side...Armor Reps...tends to run into an issue with capacitor and timing. [End of cycle] Although I wish there was a bit more nuance with the active hardners than everyone just getting the reactive.

dapper ruin
#

They arent an issue at all

dusty ibex
#

Pixy doing the real PvP in this thread

ebon turret
#

i wish pixy would stop responding

#

we all know it just fuels the gibberish

worn dock
#

everyone just getting the reactive

your honor I’d like to introduce this as exhibit 73635 of milint having no idea what people who actually play the game do

dapper ruin
sonic pebble
#

Because I was at the farm

#

XD

#

But, Yes, there are some points with armor being more passive than active.

And there are other factors.

dapper ruin
#

Armor isnt passive

sonic pebble
#

Not on recharge...not like shield.

Passive as in you can increase resists and HP...without using capacitor [passive]

dapper ruin
#

Can do that with shields too

sonic pebble
#

Although there is penalties which make you more vulnerable to capacitor warfare though. And blooming your signature can also mean much more thorough application effectiveness.

dapper ruin
#

uh what

#

the passive shield resist do not bloom your sig

sonic pebble
#

Where as armor...you have to be more mindful of speed. Since rigs and plates do make you.

dapper ruin
#

takes up a slot for cap, but thats the trade off

sonic pebble
#

Passive Shield Regen vs. Passive Shield Resist.

Also usually Passive Shield Resist Mods tend to be filling a gap...which is usually means an active shield hardner.

If you go shield rigs your signature is going up.

Passive Shield Regen...depending on the fit...means not only is your signature higher...but either your capacitor is smaller...easier to break...or its recharge is nightmarishly slow.

If you go Passive Shield Regen...your signature is going to be pretty big.

If you go Passive Shield Resist its generally in combination with some other mods to fill a gap. [Although it really shouldn't be considered true passive...since other components of the fit are active.]

dapper ruin
#

Yeah thats the trade off

sonic pebble
#

But shield ships...unless fitted with certain goals in minde..are generally a bit easier to hit...if you are just looking at the signature.

#

But I don't think CCP will ever give Dual/Tri Passive Shield Resist Modules because that will make things a bit broken.

dapper ruin
#

of course they wont

#

armor/shield is in a nice balanced spot right now

sonic pebble
#

Unless CCP starts giving more Gallente ships the mass bonus.

dapper ruin
#

I mean even if they do, it doesnt change much

#

just means armor ships will be able to keep up with shield better

sonic pebble
#

Well for the Gallente Ones.

Although I would be intrigued to see Amarr adjustments in that field.

rancid parcel
#

Vice versa

#

Shield amps suck ass

sonic pebble
urban pawn
#

what are you even saying

ebon turret
#

Don't even try jakub

dapper ruin
nimble tapir
#

can you please rebalance gallente ships.
I keep getting made fun of for wanting to fly gallente
I know theyre not the most optimal attribute wise.
there are better stealth bombers
better capitals.
better freighter
but my heart loves them
but my fomo brain is weak
Prayge
thank you for your consideration

dire flume
#

Aka the apex

dusty ibex
#

MNI second best haw dread

spare tangle
#

could be nice to look at the cloaked speed bonus on the Cheetah and Helios feels like it doesn't do too much compared to the scan deviation of the Buzzard/Anathema

dusty ibex
spare tangle
#

1km/s cloaked cheetah now!

dusty ibex
#

Oooo

#

Yessss

#

I support this

spare tangle
#

the 25% speed boost while cloaked is nice but it doesn't feel like it does much when its like 100 or 150 m/s bonus
making it a bit more would help a lot in just traveling cloaked on grid and help avoid getting decloaked when you run into a gate camp

spare tangle
#

or wouldn't it be silly to just let them use prop mods while cloaked silly cloaked little cheetah/helios going 2500m/s

fleet mesa
#

@pulsar dock could you please share with the community plans on where should we expect huge update that you mentioned at the beginning above?
Is that still valid?

IMG_2183.jpg
languid fractal
#

Gold rush leaks 😩

forest hare
languid fractal
#

i think hes talking about the summer expansion update which prob comes in ~ 2-3 weeks. at least thast when the equinox one came out

lean sapphire
#

So is that thing in chronoligcal order? because the crimson harvest starts like the first week of october

#

which means that winter expansion should be before it so like middle of sept?

devout sage
languid fractal
#

i imagine it would be around the same time as the equinox one so would be behind schedule if true

lean sapphire
#

CCP is busy developing frontier so no more even content this year

limpid rapids
#

Different teams

haughty escarp
#

Allow orca to use grappler, kinda no sense that rorq can use it but orca cant

sonic pebble
# haughty escarp Allow orca to use grappler, kinda no sense that rorq can use it but orca cant

I mean you are not wrong in that.
But, I can see where the Stasis Grappler might be used both defensively and offensively and support wise.

Although in some fits of the ORCA its already pretty effective with Webs already.
And yes you can use Web Drone...[these probably need to be upgraded to be fair.]

I think my main issue would be an ORCA might use the grappler to help its fleet mates escape...or might make it a very super tanky tackler in some situations.

Thoughts on this line of thinking?

Or you could end up with some sort of weird combination mechanic...due to the ORCA having the maitenance bay...and people figuring out a way to use the Grapple to speed up an align of an ejected ship for an alt

spare tangle
#

i dont think.. the orca would even benefit from a grappler like at all

#

its not getting used as a tackle milint.. its a 2 bill ship you can just put a grappler and heavy tackle on a battleship with 8 highs for neut pressure as well or just use a hic or like a brick tanked gnosis or something

#

if you want to give the orca something make its active tank like marauder levels and make it the "Drone" Marauder

give it a chance vs non capital stuff in low/null

#

making it less brick tanked and more active tank also means sitting in it AFK in HS means its easier to gank if they just sit afk at their keyboard ☺️

dapper ruin
#

Milint doesnt know how ships work in eve

spare tangle
dapper ruin
#

Rorq is a great super tackler lol

#

Orca just eats shit

spare tangle
#

Orca is just a glorified freighter with boosts and compresson

#

might as well just have a porpoise and a freigther on grid in low/null instead of a orca basically the same price and the freigther isnt locked on grid for 5 minutes if intel shows somebody going your way

elder hollow
#

stopped reading when he said using grappler defensively

ebon turret
#

Milint doesn't actually play the game more news at 6

elder hollow
#

real

steep needle
#

my in my battleship (about to die) using my grappler defensively

#

(it didnt work)

pulsar dock
limpid rapids
pulsar dock
#

Promise you'll be hearing from us about this very soon!

limpid rapids
elder hollow
restive bay
glossy nimbus
#

very soon ™

restive bay
dire flume
#

@terse delta

dapper ruin
#

Hes gunna need more than 1 therapist after this hell hole

dusty ibex
#

Just delete this thread honestly lol

#

And add 5% power grid to all T3C evilpepe

jagged panther
#

At least 500 therapists

image0.jpg
spare tangle
#

only 510 messages in here?

jagged panther
#

No lol

spare tangle
#

or did you only look for milints posts

jagged panther
#

That’s 1 user OF AN UNSPECIFIED NAME thank you very much lol

dapper ruin
#

Jebus

dire flume
#

@sonic pebble thank you for the contributions here they are very informative and helpful

sonic pebble
dapper ruin
#

Thank jebus ccp has terrible listening skills to the generic eve player

dusty ibex
#

With our luck, CCP will only listen to one person in this thread

rancid parcel
fleet mesa
limpid rapids
#

So carriers, fighter, and drone rework? /s lol

#

Also looking forward to faster armor ships

#

Curious to see what all comes

sonic pebble
#

It is fairly Open Wording...nothing is set in stone...but it looks like an interesting follow up on some of the EVE materials from earlier this year...supposedly.

elder hollow
#

because its coming on tuesday

ebon turret
#

im leaning ragebait

#

i've had enough of drake sneedons lies

elder hollow
#

the patch is on tuesday lol

#

it says as much

ebon turret
#

im gonna side with milint on this one chief

#

nothing is set in stone, this game runs on computers not stone tablets

#

i won't fall for your ragebait this time sneed iddon

elder hollow
dapper ruin
#

so therefore a computer is just a bunch of rocks we shock and make do things?

rancid parcel
#

one of three things i would cream because that means carriers are actually usable again

#

1: fighter application nerf reversion, kinda like how surgical strike tank mods were reverted, imagine if fighters could actually apply to stuff 🥺
2: a new skill that improves main weapon fighter application by 10% per level or something
3: carriers get a fat capital extender and plate bonus, like 100%? if dreads are the active reppers...

sonic pebble
#

Well if they do some armor plate speed buff...that might be interesting.

#

But...I hope they considered that with armor rigs in play.

worn dock
#

have fun training your new skill:)

rancid parcel
spare tangle
worn dock
#

mine has a 0% increase

dusty ibex
#

Fighter use, adds the ability to use 1 additional tube of fighters per level (0 base) but removes 200% of application per level

worn dock
#

now we’re cooking

rancid parcel
#

Specifically for carriers

#

If you undock in one let people within 15ly immediately jump to you via filament

#

And when this happens said carrier pilot is hictor pointed for 5 minutes

spare tangle
#

clearly the answer is capital HAW guns on carriers and remove HAW guns from dreads

rancid parcel
#

And also reduces all resists to 0

#

This would make carriers balanced I think

#

Also while we are at it, deploying fighters takes half of your hull ehp with it until they return

#

This is additive based on max so if you deploy two of your three tubes you just instantly die

#

Again I feel this would go a long way to making them balanced

rancid parcel
#

Haw dreads get sub cruiser levels of dps outside of siege

#

Now…battlecarrier on the other hand

spare tangle
rancid parcel
#

A caiman that doesn’t cost 60 bil and doesn’t suck

#

Wild

spare tangle
#

then we just let the Caiman use 5 gekos

rancid parcel
#

Awooga

dire flume
rancid parcel
#

i just want them to be anything but ass

sonic pebble
#

So why wasn't it discussed to increase the Deimos speed from 230m/s to like 250-275m/s?

Because from the Muninn 235m/s to the Vagabond 295m/s is like a 60m/s speed gap.

All other HACs are 160 to 235 (Muninn)

If you want the Deimos to go Brawler...it needs a speed upgrade. I mean then the signature change from 150 to 120m then makes sense.

coral night
#

So feedback about the information given via the stream: Overall, seems pretty good!

sonic pebble
limpid rapids
#

Considering I use the Deimos as a brawler, Milint, while I'd love a speed bump on it, it functions excellently as both brawler and hard tackle

warped pawn
#

link about those changes ?

#

I don't see the difference between hard tackle and brawler.

glossy nimbus
#

"Cenotaph: 'A little bit of a rework to nerf it in WH but not in kspace' (?) - removing 1 lowslot, but improving base speed and damage bonuses, nerfing sensor strength significantly to add more counterplay"
i think this from CSM member Mick Fightmaster from Novac that fly on shield ? looks like its killed for amour fleets and buffed for shield

next elbow
#

I really hope confessor/svipul "remote repairs in defense mode" is about receiving reps, not them being better at RRing themselves

sullen osprey
dusty ibex
#

The third low in the Ceno let it use an RCU to free up rigs so you could run some incredibly tanky fits and still have a BCS and DCU or a nano and DCU for 100mn Now you have to pick between some tank or damage.

It is still going to be incredibly strong imo but maybe not broken.

sonic pebble
sonic pebble
dapper ruin
#

thats a trade off

#

normally you wanna resebo your logi

#

with eccm

#

because logi not being jammed is a helluva lot more important than your dps not being jammed

sonic pebble
#

I think...CCP should have done a trade off nerf.

IE the Cenotaph is a "Cover Op Cloak" Battlecruiser...but it has no Fleet Boost capacity. That probably would have been the better option.

The Changes might actually encourage usage of Fleet Boosting on that hull more aggressively. Also remember that WH mechanics are not like lowsec/Pochven/Nullsec where the combat timer/fleet boost timer...keeps you from jumping through a gate.

You can jump in...and jump out of wormhole space without penalty. Which is probably feeding the issue in Wormhole space...since Cenotaph can strike...run on...and then keep a chain of attacks. Where in gated space you have to wait for the timer to move around and jump through a gate. [I don't hear any discussion of that reality...and the fleet boosts do give a little bit of an option there...because you the fleet boosts can help your ships get off grid and to the next target or wormhole.] Yes you can't use them in cov op cloak...but once you are on grid and get affected by the fleet boosts...you can still take advantage of them for a significant amount of time.

ebon turret
#

@dapper ruin shut

dapper ruin
ebon turret
#

You only encourage him

dapper ruin
#

I know, but sometimes its amazing to see how stupid the stuff he types is

dusty ibex
sullen osprey
#

In theory yes, a Cenotaph could fit an information command burst in the highs to help defend against ECM with the electronic hardening charge (if it's not getting it from somewhere else)

sonic pebble
#

I was also thinking along the lines of both buffing resists/shield defense [The pulsar situation] I know the ship isn't armor rated by its set up...but it can also flip a little that way.

But I was more about the mobility factor allowing them to move in wormhole space due to different mechanics. IE you can hit a target...then bounce almost immediately through a wormhole. Which makes them much harder to counter and detect. [Yes this also applies to other cloaked ships in worm hole space] but the Cenotaph is on another lethality scale...because it generally isn't going to be detected enroute and the damage they can dish out.

Meaning a Cenotaph Gang can hit multiple targets in a chain of wormholes...and generally can't be detected.

This might be the more problematic issue involved...just the Cenotaph and the environment it works within.

I think lets see the change tomorrow and see how it works out. Although I think it will adjust the Cenotaph fits to a little higher Shield Resist preference. [Since going from Lowslot 3 to 2 -> Either deletes a DCU...or focuses them to Damage Enhancing Modules only...or weapon damage specialization [Projectile or Missiles-although Missiles do give them the Gurista option which can mean both drones and missiles damage increase.])

Lets see what happens, but yes the Fleet Booster does allow the Cenotaph some options to sidestep some attempts to balance it. And I didn't even mention various WH/environmental/fleet boost/booster/implant combinations that could make that calculus a moot point.